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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:05:47

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast built from triumph and heartbreak and boredom and laughter and cutting your toenails.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm James.

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And I'm triumphant boredom.

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Well, since the doctor met Bill properly for the 1st time, we've been pursued by a puddle, attacked by emojis insulted by an aristocrat, evicted by bugs, suffocated by capitalism, simulated by cadavers, threatened by bacteria, taken over by fascists, stranded on Mars, saved by children, shot in the chest, and inspired by the doctor to fight for our lives.

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Let's see how we feel about it all in the series 10 retrospective.

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Welcome to our retrospective, and I always start with the hard hitting questions, so here's a snug Mary avoid.

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Mr. Huffle, the monks, a Mondassian Cyberman.

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I mean, I don't think you could marry a Mondassian sideman. couldn't wake up to that voice every day. don't know.

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I don't know.

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I think Mr. Huffle, Mr. Huffle feels pain, so he's going to be easy to manipulate.

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And I imagine that's what marriage is about.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it is. marry him.

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Todd, he'll marry him. you'd be Mr. Huffle as well.

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Mr. Huffle.

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I think I would have to snog the cyberman because...

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The kiss would always be open-mouthed, wouldn't it?

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Yeah, this is very good.

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It would be like kissing Roger Moore, wouldn't it, really?

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You'll avoid the monks?

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I would avoid the monks because I think kissing the monks would involve in like bits falling off and stuff, like things between your teeth.

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I just don't think that that's a fun experience for anyone.

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Not even the viewers.

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Especially not the viewers.

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Okay.

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What do you think of the monks?

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Do you think they were successful?

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I like the monks.

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I think their design is quite interesting if a little bit generic.

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I don't think they're used very well in lie of the land, but I think in the 2 preceding episodes, especially when they're down underneath the Vatican and they're being shot very well and they're coming out of the shadows.

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I think they're really quite effective.

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It's funny the simplicity of it, isn't it?

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Like, there are 3 sort of big monsters from the Moffat era, aren't there?

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The weeping angels.

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I know that they predate the Moffit era, but the weeping angels, the silence and the monks, they seem to be like the three.

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Yeah, the 10 poles.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And they're visually striking.

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They're completely distinct from one another and they're very high concept.

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The monks may be less so, but the others certainly.

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And I think they work really well.

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I don't think they're the sort of thing that anyone will be itching to bring back. discovering this time through and watching those 3 episodes and seeing how much they are a vehicle for Moffatt's critique of religion made me more interested in them.

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So, yeah, no, I like them.

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I mean, they've got stupid things like that thing where they open their mouth and and just words come out, what sort of nonsense is that?

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Quite like that.

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But yeah, I think they're great.

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You can handwave that away, though, because, you know, they're appearing in this form for the human race.

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Yeah.

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Like, there's not their true form. because you might find them attractive.

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Yeah, I, I, I, I, as a concept, I love the monks.

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I think the episodes that they're in are lopsided and flawed, but I probably enjoy.

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I probably enjoy them more than more than most.

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It's pity that we didn't have the monks up against the space Anglicans.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That would have been interesting.

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Do you think they could have been like a season threat rather than just a 3 episode thing or?

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Well, I think the thing that we talked about during that trilogy was how it was Doctor Who experimenting with a different way of telling a story.

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And it's the kind of serialisation that routinely happens in just about everything now where you just tell a self-contained story, but it's at different stages of the invasion.

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And Simon made the distinction between a three-parter.

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I think you did as well, a bit James, between a three-parter and a trilogy.

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And I like that Doctor Who tried the trilogy.

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I thought it went really well.

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And I like the fact that Moffa did it out of necessity.

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So he came back and he did this season, which we'll talk about, I'm sure, and he wasn't expecting to do it.

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And so he was kind of scrabbling around a little bit for ideas.

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He was open to ideas, and the fact that I think it was Peter Harness, who came up with the general idea of the monks, and Moffat looked at that and went, that's good.

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We can do something with this and sort of worked backwards to make a loose story about them.

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And then looked at something like oxygen where the doctor was blinded and then pushed that forward into the trilogy.

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I think he was just making things out of what he had and it works really well.

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It's just him being creative on the hop.

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One of our listeners, Luke Hobbs, says, what are your thoughts on how the 3 parts of the Monk trilogy fit together with each other and how they fit into this season, which we are discussing right now?

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And as you said, someone made very good points back in those episodes.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a problem that the show has or a challenge that the show faces when it comes back, where in the 70s, it's kind of an anthology show, and every 4 weeks they forget what's happened to them, and then they go off on another adventure, which, and they never mention the previous adventure ever again.

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And, you know, the 80s addresses that in some ways and the 60s isn't actually much like that.

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It also is sort of a continuous story.

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And so Russell does it by having sort of relationships between the characters that develop during the course of the thing and also by having an arc word.

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And Moffatt does a similar thing.

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You know, the characters, our main characters find out more about each other in each more fit season.

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And here, all of that's been paired back, all of the characters that he invented for his era of the show are kind of gone.

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He's got Nardol and Bill and Missy, and he just tells a story about them.

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And that story gets given a shape by having these events that happen and then have consequences in subsequent episodes.

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And even, like, even in the two-part finale, we're referring back to things that happen to Bill in the Monk trilogy, like in in lie of the land.

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Like, I just think all of that's really good.

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Like an arc doesn't have to be the hybrid.

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It doesn't have to be a big...

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It doesn't have to be a big high concept thing.

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It can just be, we remember what happened last week, things move into each other.

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Things have consequences, things are woven throughout the season.

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What a normal TV show does.

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I think it worked really well this year.

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I think it was born out of necessity as well.

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Again, from what we were talking about before, where he wasn't expecting to do this season.

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And so it just shows you Moth at his unvarnished best.

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He doesn't have a big concept for the season.

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What he has is a location.

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What he has is a series of ideas for what all happened going forward and it just works beautifully as a set of episodes rather than as one huge story that you buy into.

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No, I agree with that.

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I think that's why it's probably my favourite season of the modern era is because of the fact that he has just showing how brilliant he is as a writer at pulling all these disparate threads together because he doesn't have an overarching high concept plot.

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It's just, I've created all these characters.

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I have to track them into situations, I have to get them from A to B to C.

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And it's quite intricately kind of tied all together.

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There's bits that pop up throughout the season to get tied together in the middle and then at the end, in a way which it's really quite satisfying and on an emotional level, not a not on that sort of big plot level, which I really like.

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And as ever, it comes down to episode quality.

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You know, you can have the biggest high concept in the world, but if you don't have that great stories to tell with it, it work satisfying, we just so happened that this season is a series of really good episodes.

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Siheart, um, ask this question, is more for going out on a high, which sort of feeds into what you guys are saying.

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Yeah, I mean, there's 2 stories that he does, I think, where he sets himself a proper challenge, and one is the pilot, where he kind of challenges himself to tell a story with no funny business that takes place over a period of time, like over the course of a year, and that's magnificent.

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You know, he rises to that.

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And then the end where he sets himself the task of making the Mondassian cybermen work on modern television, which is a pretty wild challenge, if you think about it.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely mad.

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And he does extremists, which I think is a very solid kind of just a, the kind of Moffat story you don't see often enough where it's just him writing a story in the middle of the season for a change.

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It's the listen of this season.

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Yeah, or the beast below, you know.

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So all of those are great.

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And I think, I don't know.

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I was a bit weary of the Moffat era by the end.

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And I checked back on a Facebook post that I made after twice upon a time where I kind of said, thank God Chipnall's coming.

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Yes, thank God Jim was going.

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But in retrospect, I think he does go out on a high, and there are plenty of people who I think were losing interest in maybe 8 and certainly a 9 that are back on board for 10, BJ Hobbs, who we had on our smile episode, said that that was her experience.

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So I think he is going out on a high.

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I don't think he has lulled.

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You know, I think he does make decisions that people don't enjoy very much and sometimes he gets a little bit kind of caught up in himself a bit, but he's a pretty amazing writer and for an unexpected series that he's just doing to make sure the show stays alive while the next regime kind of gets its ducks in a row.

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This is a pretty good season.

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And I think, too, the fact that he knows that he's not going on.

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He doesn't have to set anything up or have back planning in the back of your head for what's moving forward, which sometimes takes your focus on what's currently happening in a season.

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So I think that also plays a factor in just the focus on these set of stories and the structure within this season, right?

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It's one of those historically galling things that the 1st chibnal season.

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Jody's 1st season is given all the focus as a hard reboot for the show.

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Whereas this series is a soft reboot for the show, and to my mind, much more successful than that one is, and yet it doesn't get the focus and the acclaim.

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Yeah, it's a fantastic self-free bit of the show.

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Like he thought he was finishing.

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He wrapped all those plot threads up.

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Really, at the end of series 9.

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Like he'd sort of got rid of all these characters, tied up all this ongoing plotarch stuff over the previous couple of years.

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Most of that was in the time of the doctor.

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Most of the time, the doctor.

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And so he ties up all of this sort of Clara stuff and puts that to bed and he thinks he's not doing anymore.

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And then he gets this surprise season and has to create something which is wholly formed within itself.

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And so you kind of get this much more satisfying payoff, I think, at the end of the season because he's got he's got a limited canvas that he's working with and he doesn't have all of the sort of messy plot threads to tie up.

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He's just telling a whole story within the season.

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I think that that really works very well.

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I just can sum it up by saying, I think it's refreshing.

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I think it's palate cleansing and that's what I really like about it.

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Are you still talking about kissing the monks?

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Do you think that that means that the big problem with the Moffat era is that the there's not a quick enough turnover of regular cast?

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Because this is so good because you get to do a thing like what Russell does, you know, in series, maybe two, 3, and 4, and his newest series as well, his most recent series, where he gets to centre a group of episodes around the experience of an individual who is new to us.

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I think there's a prevailing school of thought that Clara stayed too long, and I would agree with that.

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I think one of the reasons I find series 9, the least satisfying of Mothat seasons, is that there's really nothing new, like they said in the publicity for it.

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Same old, same old, doctor and Clara and the Tartars.

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I guess this is something that we'll talk about in the full retrospective of the entire Moffat era.

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And it's a certainly very interesting question that we that will come back to, is the length of time that both doctors spent with Amy and Rory and then with Clara, you know, rather than having a new refreshing teen every year and and we'll certainly we'll get onto that and discuss that.

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Because, I mean, the pilot smile and thin eyes, I think smile is the weakest of those three.

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All bloody good.

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Yeah, they get to do things that we haven't done for ages.

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Smile's not great.

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The worst episode of the season.

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I actually really enjoy smile.

158
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No, no, no, no.

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Like, we all have different opinions on this, obviously.

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It would be boring if we didn't, but I like smile because it's so atypical of Doctor Who. and it's just doing something different.

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See, I, I, coming back to this, like smile is probably one of my favourite episodes of the season.

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Yeah, I really like what it does at the beginning, which is just having the 2 of them wandering around exploring a place.

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Like, um, Arc in space episode one.

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Yes, but I think it just collapses in upon itself the point.

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They go through that door downstairs.

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It just falls to pieces.

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I mean, I like to tour through the paper now.

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And I just don't enjoy it from that point on.

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But all the stuff outside, to begin with, that's tremendous.

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Can I just say if we're talking about smile, perhaps being the least successful episode of the season, that's a pretty good season.

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Oh, no, I still like it.

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Yeah, I don't think there's actually an episode in this season that I think is poor.

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No.

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I'm trying to think what my least favourite is.

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It might be knock knock.

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But again, you're going to ask me later.

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We're going to go through all these episodes, right?

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Since we're talking about sort of the 1st three.

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David Kitchen.

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How does Moffatt, having a companion who isn't special, like Amy and Clara affect the season?

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Does Capaldi work best with this more, with a more traditional companion, having traditional adventures, or does he lose something?

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It's funny how he's name checked in the episode when Bill comes in and says, this is some kind of David Ketchum?

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David says season 10 is his favourite Moffat series.

184
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Yeah, yeah.

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I think like Russell doesn't do special companions, does he?

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until this most recent season where the reveal is actually she's not special.

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We think she's a Moffatt companion until we discover that she's just a normal person with Amelia Gibbs's character.

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He said special in inverter comments, like design, high concept, like...

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Yeah, I think so.

190
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A complex space-time event, as Brendan, I think.

191
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Did Brendan put it that way in an earlier episode?

192
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The show puts it in that way.

193
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Well, yes, yeah.

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Part of the deal with Clara is it's also kind of the discovery that she's not special.

195
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Like, she's not inherently special.

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She becomes special because she makes that act of self sacrifice, but it hasn't happened yet.

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And so she's being regarded as a mystery in a way that we thought kind of hampered the character, but the discovery is that we were wrong to regard her in that way all along.

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And she is just an ordinary person.

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Like with Amy, it's Moffatt very definitely making the doctor, a kind of fairy tale figure, like your imaginary friend.

200
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And so she's not high concept as such, is she, she just met the doctor that one time.

201
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Oh, special.

202
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:09.480
Yeah.

203
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:12.359
She has high concept things happen to her.

204
00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:13.140
Yeah.

205
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:17.819
What effect do you think having the character of Bill has on the 12 doctor?

206
00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:18.900
for this season?

207
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:35.160
I think having a duckling to take under his wing really sort of shaves any remaining rough edges off the character and makes him, he's quite warm and cuddly this season, even though he's played by Peter Capaldi, and so he's got that slight edge in the performance.

208
00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:43.019
And I think Todd made the allusion to the 3 stages of Pertwee previously, and I ideally see it.

209
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:50.279
He's even got Pertuis season 11 Buffon. which gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

210
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:51.180
Absolutely.

211
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.579
It looks like a maine by the time we had twice upon a time.

212
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:55.140
But it's also a different energy too.

213
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:14.819
There's a, you know, um, Jenna Coleman has an intensity, whereas I think Paul Mackey has a joyfulness about her and just something different for him to bounce off and that makes it surprising a lot of the time you think, oh, that's where we're going with this or we're taking the doctor in this directional.

214
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:16.079
That's his reaction.

215
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:18.059
And it's a bit off putting at first.

216
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:19.740
Like, well, what was that?

217
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.900
The friend of the foe of the whatever it was?

218
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:23.880
Friend from the future, which was terrible.

219
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:25.019
But we won't go there.

220
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:32.460
But then when you're watching these scenes and because you've had 2 whole years of Clara with the doctor to to have that happening.

221
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:33.900
At 1st it's a bit off putting.

222
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:42.180
And then it sort of just kicks in and it makes you wanting more than just this season with there's something about their performance styles that meshes.

223
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:58.440
And so I think the best scene that Capaldi ever has as the doctor is the climax of extremists in the Oval Office, where it's just him and Bill talking about what's been happening and they're both keeping it very quiet and very solemn.

224
00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:04.740
I think that's a tour de force performance by Capaldi, and he delivers a couple of those opposite Pearl Mackey.

225
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.359
I think their energy is really good.

226
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.559
Well, I think that, yes, like playing on that idea.

227
00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:22.799
The actors, I think, find a rhythm quite quickly, and they kind of, it feels like they're riffing off each other in a way, like, like, the energy kind of feeds back and forth in a way that's really quite satisfying.

228
00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:25.559
They evidently enjoyed working together a lot.

229
00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:29.819
And it's such a pity that they didn't get longer together.

230
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:35.220
I kind of like the fact that it's just this one beautiful season exists by itself.

231
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.119
Oh, no, I agree with you there, but I always want more.

232
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.200
You know, it's one of those things.

233
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:42.660
It's the C.S. Lewis thing that I've quoted before.

234
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:48.299
There's 2 times you can stop doing something before everyone's sick of it and afterwards.

235
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:56.339
And so, yes, you know, we can always go back and enjoy Pearl's year on Doctor Who and be grateful that we had her.

236
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:57.779
And I guess there's that.

237
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.859
All right, it's time for a snog, marry, avoid.

238
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:11.400
Here we go.

239
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:16.559
Missy, the master, Mr. Razor.

240
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:21.839
I mean, if you're married, either miss you or the master, you'd be marrying both of them, surely.

241
00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:22.980
And Mr. Razor.

242
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:30.299
Well, I think Bill is actually quite happy with Mr. Razor for 10 years.

243
00:21:30.299 --> 00:21:31.259
Oh, do you think they went there?

244
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:35.700
No, but I think they, but there's a kind of sort of married couple thing happening.

245
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.859
And he makes tea.

246
00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:40.799
It's terrible, but he does at least make it for you.

247
00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:42.299
So I think that's a definite marry.

248
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.019
No, Missy, wouldn't you?

249
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:47.579
Well, no, I'd be too scared.

250
00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:48.660
Right.

251
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.980
Absolutely terrified.

252
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:52.740
You wouldn't want to marry Missy.

253
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.140
Then you just be labelled comic relief for expedition.

254
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:55.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

255
00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:58.500
So I'm definitely marrying Mr. Razor.

256
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.380
I am definitely snogging John Sim.

257
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.200
You've got to believe it, with or without.

258
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:04.980
I don't mind.

259
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:10.140
And Missy, that scary lady who pressed me up against a wall one time.

260
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.539
I'm not I'm avoiding her.

261
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:19.319
See, yeah, so I would probably say I would avoid Mr. Razor because he's turning me into a cyberman. that's true.

262
00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:24.299
Make you taller. throw away the bits.

263
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:29.160
What do you think of Michelle's performance this year?

264
00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:31.079
Oh, divine.

265
00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:32.160
Yes, glorious.

266
00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:34.680
Yeah, yeah, she's incredible.

267
00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:35.759
Isn't it amazing?

268
00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:37.140
We're not a bunch of gays, are we?

269
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.779
It's so great. isn't it?

270
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:48.119
Like those 2 years that she's a kind of semi-regular in Capaldi's era, like the 1st year and the final year.

271
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.920
And he just can't leave her alone.

272
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:57.599
She is so superb that even though he kind of visibly kills her off. you know, in the series 8 finale.

273
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:10.380
She's back 2 episodes later because he has to write for her and she's magnificent in that 2 parter and particularly that 1st episode when the doctor's absent and she's kind of running the show.

274
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:22.859
I think, you know, she is, I think, the best version of the master, even though I think Delgado comes in a fairly respectable second.

275
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:29.759
She is so funny and so clever and so unexpected and so brutally dark.

276
00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:32.519
I think she just gets it absolutely right.

277
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.220
It's perhaps the best thing.

278
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:43.319
I mean, Moffatt casts 2 incredible doctors, but after that, it's casting Missy that's his real triumph, I think.

279
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.799
The master has always been a case of diminishing returns for me.

280
00:23:46.859 --> 00:24:02.339
I never thought anyone could match up to Delgado in my appreciation and Michelle Gomez comes in and is written so well and just provides a slightly different spin on the master that I think is equally good as Delgado and that's high praise.

281
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.460
I love all of her line readings.

282
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.960
It's a bit obvious that she's off filming Sabrina because in some episodes.

283
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.960
It's sort of like we've got her in this set, we've got her in this set.

284
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:15.119
We have to film all these things and slaughter in.

285
00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:26.759
So I think the fact that they managed to do that and work around that and make that part of the story successfully is just from it again to Stephen and his vision for where that character was going.

286
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:42.599
I did say in last week's episode, I think, or was it the week before, that I kind of would have loved one other adventure with her out of the Tartars with the Tartars crew actually in just a proper adventure and actually ending up escaping.

287
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:43.319
Do you know what I mean?

288
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:48.240
So throwing you off the scent that she could turn either way, thinking, 0 my goodness.

289
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:58.019
But as I mentioned in that episode, then we would have not had all the wonderful comic relief exposition stuff at the beginning of the world and often time episode.

290
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.859
If there was any master who should have had a companion, I think it should have been her.

291
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:08.579
I can just imagine her riffing off a junior slightly less evil version of herself and it would have been really fun.

292
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:10.740
Like Clara.

293
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.720
Yeah, she showed up.

294
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.859
Indeticians are pretty.

295
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:14.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

296
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.640
In everything I just said, yes.

297
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:24.420
I wanted to go through and just get your final thoughts on some of the episodes for this season.

298
00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:29.579
So we'll start with, well, the return of Dr. Mysterio, which really started the block off.

299
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.460
I think it's massively underrated.

300
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.480
It's really, really funny and great and it has quite a touching ending.

301
00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:37.680
I really enjoyed it.

302
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:40.740
I think it's overrated and still kind of fun.

303
00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:44.160
I think it's fun but forgettable.

304
00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:52.259
Like, you know, in the moment I enjoy it for all the reasons you've mentioned, Nathan, but then except for Mr. Huffle, which I think is just the worst thing ever.

305
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.720
And, um, enjoy about Nathan's husband.

306
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:57.000
Yeah, that's not the worst thing ever.

307
00:25:57.059 --> 00:26:00.240
But it's yeah, it's not great.

308
00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:05.039
But then I forget about it I mean, not every Doctor Who episode has to be a life-changing event.

309
00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:05.819
Do you know what I mean?

310
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.619
It can just be a music.

311
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:08.279
Yeah, that's right.

312
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:09.720
It can't just be a music for now.

313
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:15.660
But being a Christmas special, I think that we hold them to such high standards, right?

314
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:17.519
But it's so much fun.

315
00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:24.000
It's so much fun And I think you make the point in the episode about it being an up to the minute cultural reference.

316
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:29.759
I can forgive Mysteria a lot because it's just fun.

317
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:45.119
And using like Matt Lucas in the way you do is this strange comic relief character. just sort of punctures a lot of the, you know, pomposity that we keep going on about characters puncturing the pomposity of Capoli's doctor.

318
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:52.079
There's something about that sort of straight man funny man kind of... don't think Matt Lucas is straight.

319
00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:03.359
But what I do think in that episode is that you do get different sides of the Capoldi doctor, like when he's eating that sushi and stuff like that. is so funny.

320
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:05.039
There's a change.

321
00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:10.980
There's another turning point, you know, for the 3rd iteration of the character.

322
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:12.539
He lets Kapaldi do comedy business.

323
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:13.859
Yeah, which is great.

324
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:17.579
Well, that thing, the opening scene with him and the kid is pretty great.

325
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:22.500
He also gets one of my favourite lines in the show's history, which is Mrs. Lombard.

326
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:26.759
There are some situations that are too stupid to be allowed to continue, which I think is just awesome.

327
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:30.599
Absolutely I always think it's a pity that harm you should.

328
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:35.160
Don't turn up again because I just kind of think having them in those 2 Christmas specials back to back.

329
00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:39.180
You kind of think that they're going somewhere, but obviously, they never appear again.

330
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.079
Finish box set.

331
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.519
That was my next...

332
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:46.559
That sounds like a Moffat companion, doesn't it?

333
00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:47.160
Harmony Shoal.

334
00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.140
Yeah, there's just 2 random nouns.

335
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:51.420
All right, the pilot.

336
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:53.099
So fun.

337
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:55.380
So great. properly good.

338
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.900
I think actually probably good in a way that I didn't expect it all.

339
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:00.660
It's not structured like a Doctor Who story.

340
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.220
It structured like a biopic.

341
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:05.880
It's interesting, you know, formally interesting, as we said.

342
00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:06.539
Just great.

343
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:07.619
Brilliant beginning.

344
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:14.039
One of the strongest season openers in the modern era, I think, because it, again, is playing against the type.

345
00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:32.700
And I think one of us, maybe it was me, made the point in that episode that they do the whole sort of beginning of season arc that Russell would do with the present day future past all in the one episode.

346
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:46.799
So you get that business out of the way in an episode, and then you redo it again anyway. over the next few, but it encapsulates so much and you get to know that new character really quite well.

347
00:28:46.859 --> 00:28:47.940
Yeah, all that.

348
00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:50.039
And to visit Simon and Brian's doorstep.

349
00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:50.640
Yeah, exactly.

350
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:53.400
What, the vault?

351
00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:56.039
You said that.

352
00:28:56.099 --> 00:28:56.759
Not there.

353
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.740
Good grief.

354
00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:04.920
Smile.

355
00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:10.019
I'll start by saying, I think all the stuff outside is brilliant, wonderful location work.

356
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.720
I just enjoy that so much in their exploration, the city.

357
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.359
Once they go into the door downstairs.

358
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:19.619
I think it begins to fall apart and I really don't enjoy the last 15 or 20 minutes.

359
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:25.680
For me, it's the weakest episode of the season, which I give it a seven, but that's not bad.

360
00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:28.319
What did you think of the child actor given a lot of prominence?

361
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:33.420
I thought he was terrible, but you know, that's my default setting.

362
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:40.019
I both, you know, I think it's one of my favourite episodes of season and totally agree with you on the structure.

363
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.420
Like the, all of the business between Pearl and Peter is great.

364
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.480
Like all of that, them getting to know each other.

365
00:29:48.539 --> 00:30:01.859
How, you know, I think you made this point in the episode about she realises what his role is, like what he does, how he spends his life and then she kind of goes, oh, I'm going to go and help him, even though he's running into danger.

366
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.920
Like all of all of that is fantastic.

367
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.759
But yes, as soon as you get to a, it's not a paper mill.

368
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:10.319
Uskmith power station.

369
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.259
It's Ed Thomas's back room.

370
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:18.359
Yes, it's actually it is actually just his house, isn't it?

371
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:22.319
Look, I don't think you can undersell the value of a great location.

372
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.980
That episode has one of the greatest locations in Doctor Who.

373
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:28.859
Yeah, visually it's stunning, isn't it?

374
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:40.500
And I do think that moment, like maybe the best moment in it is the moment where Bill is left at the TARDIS door and the doctor goes off in there to blow up the building.

375
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:49.319
And I just think that's absolutely brilliant just because it's a big character moment for her learning who he is, but it's a beautiful shot.

376
00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:51.839
Yeah, it's like cinematographic.

377
00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:52.380
Yeah, yeah.

378
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.279
Yeah, the him sort of running across the field.

379
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.660
Yeah, yeah, like Teresa May.

380
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.380
All right, thin ice.

381
00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.799
Maybe the best episode of the season.

382
00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:13.980
It looks incredibly good, and it's just beautifully written by Sarah Dollard.

383
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:25.500
And one of the reasons I think that, um, one of the problems with smile is that what it does introducing the 2 characters to one another is done a lot better here.

384
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:33.779
And I think that confrontation between Pearl and Peter about how many people have you killed is one of the high points of the season.

385
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.359
It's beautiful, it's funny.

386
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:41.819
It's just incredibly well done, and it should be more highly regarded than it is.

387
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:44.940
And they've gotten so good at putting their money on the screen.

388
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:53.039
This entire season looks absolutely amazing and was made for less money than the season following, which I don't think looks as good.

389
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:58.980
Also, thin ice, 2nd best example of a companion encountering an elephant in Doctor Who history.

390
00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:04.140
I think it's slightly less good than the other time.

391
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:11.880
And we'll let you discover that, listeners, if you don't know what that is if you go back and watch the classic series.

392
00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:30.059
We had a great discussion on the episode and I walked away from that, loving it even more, and I do think it is along with the pilot and Empress of Mars, like those 3 other than the finale of the 3 that I really gravitate towards this season.

393
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.579
So yeah, no, it's great.

394
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.259
Any thoughts, James?

395
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.319
Look, I would agree with you on that.

396
00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:51.240
I think coming back to the, them getting to know each other point, each time, it's a different slant on, on that sort of, there's like the unpeeling layers of, of their friendship and discovering something new about each other each week.

397
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.779
And Capaldi gets to punch a fascist in the page.

398
00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:57.059
It's brilliant.

399
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.319
Knock knock.

400
00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.119
Oh, it's really fun.

401
00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:00.839
Knock knock.

402
00:33:00.900 --> 00:33:11.759
I really like the group of characters that are whipped up around Bill, including the one of those companions we never had in little Harry. speaking of which, Peter?

403
00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:13.200
Snog Marrier Void.

404
00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:15.119
Harry Paul Pavel.

405
00:33:15.180 --> 00:33:16.079
Okay.

406
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:22.200
I think I would give Harry a little snog, just because if nothing else, because he's Harry Sullivan's grandson.

407
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:22.980
Yeah, he's cute.

408
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:23.460
He's sweet.

409
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.279
The other 2 are completely interchangeable in my memory.

410
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.640
Pavel likes to play his music quite loud, so I think I'd avoid him.

411
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:33.599
And the other one, he's very tall and Scottish. very tall.

412
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:35.279
Yeah, I don't want to marry that.

413
00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:36.900
Yeah, I'll take the 5th on that.

414
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:40.859
Back to knock knock.

415
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:42.960
I really enjoy knock knock a lot.

416
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:44.819
And I love that group of characters.

417
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:45.779
I love the whole setting.

418
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:54.900
I think David Suchet is wonderfully menacing and as you discussed, that old school of acting coming into the show.

419
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:56.400
Lovely classic series performance.

420
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:00.420
That's right Like with the ending, everybody has to live.

421
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:20.099
I think that's an unfortunate thing in terms of the ubiquitousness of media and social media these days is that if all of them died, that would then have links to so many people and so many investigations as opposed to what happens back in the 1960s and 70s where if 2 campers get killed, it can be explained away.

422
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:28.320
And so I think, as you discussed, you know, if all these people died, Bill would not travel with the doctor, they had to have a get out of jail free card.

423
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:31.619
So I'm getting for what you're saying, that knock knock would have been better with Ogri.

424
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.519
Anything's better with...

425
00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:43.619
But what I'm saying is that the ending of it was a necessity and that ending, you know, you kind of think, oh, can you kill off a few, can you not?

426
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.159
You know, at the end, you're just going to think, oh, that's the way it has to be.

427
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:57.420
I also found the kind of some pretty heroic latex acting from the mother and just some fairly ridiculous scenes.

428
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:03.780
It's one of those moments where I just imagine my mother walking in and looking at the screen and going, what the hell are you watching?

429
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:08.039
Would you then have turned around her and said, I'm so sorry that I couldn't have saved you all this?

430
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.380
There are wood lice in the walls.

431
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:16.739
I mean, it's that's a stupid scene, and like, I just think it's a bit overwrought and embarrassing, really.

432
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.380
So it's the resolution that I think is dumb.

433
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.639
Everything else, I think is really great.

434
00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:21.599
Thank you.

435
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:22.440
I was trying to say.

436
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:26.039
I hated knock knock when I 1st saw a series here.

437
00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:27.059
I thought was the weakest thing.

438
00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:29.460
I'd ever watched. rewatching it.

439
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.900
I thought it was gorgeous.

440
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:40.559
It was just this sort of small story about this sad little boy who lost his mother basically.

441
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:46.320
And I think maybe, yeah, maybe I had the Todd experience.

442
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.980
It was a revelation when I watched it back this time.

443
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.260
I had only ever watched it once, I think.

444
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.719
Maybe I just was having an off week.

445
00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:57.900
Lots more Greek 40 business as well.

446
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.099
He's really funny in that episode.

447
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:00.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

448
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.000
More eating, more inappropriate eating, which is pretty great.

449
00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:10.019
The music references as well and yeah, he just does that offbeat comedy sort of things so well.

450
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:11.699
I mean, if that's one thing from this season.

451
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.960
It's all those little quirky moments with him that I just enjoy so much.

452
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:19.199
I bet if we dive into your phone, we'll find a bit of little mix in there.

453
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.260
No, you won't.

454
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:27.000
I'm stuck Well, in the past, a bit more the Reynolds girls.

455
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:28.380
Jesus.

456
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.340
Stop it.

457
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.480
All right.

458
00:36:30.539 --> 00:36:34.440
On that note, let's get some oxygen, the next episode.

459
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:36.119
Fantastic.

460
00:36:36.179 --> 00:36:37.199
Oxygen.

461
00:36:37.260 --> 00:36:37.860
Really good.

462
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.460
I know that we were slightly mixed on it in our episode.

463
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:48.420
There was a few mixed opinions there, but I think it's an exercise in atmosphere, which is really great.

464
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.840
I agree with you. an exercise in atmosphere.

465
00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:56.099
But even this time through like the 1st time through, I didn't love it to death.

466
00:36:56.159 --> 00:37:09.960
Like, I just, Jamie's done some brilliant episodes, which I absolutely adore, and this almost gets there, but for some reason, it just doesn't have that element that makes it, like, zing right at the top down.

467
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:10.980
I don't know why that is.

468
00:37:10.980 --> 00:37:12.000
I don't know.

469
00:37:12.059 --> 00:37:20.940
It's got a couple of wonderful set piece moments, like the walking on the hull from Bill's point of view, and also the fact that it makes the doctor blind.

470
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:25.619
I think if that had just been contained to this episode, it would have been shrug and forget it.

471
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:32.940
But the fact that it has repercussions through the following 2 episodes makes it a really important event in the doctor's fictional life and I like it.

472
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.739
No, I think that's really good.

473
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.420
I mean, I easily give it an 8 out of 10.

474
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:41.519
I'm just not saying, for me, it's hitting that 9 mark, which, for me, it's like top 10.

475
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:54.539
Oxygen does something I really love in Doctor Who, and it's the critique of capitalism, of society, of human failing, like human greed.

476
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:57.360
And I love the fact that it hits you in the face with it.

477
00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:00.960
It's not allegory in a lot of ways.

478
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:03.780
Doctor Who usually does this sort of stuff as allegory.

479
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.239
It's just like capitalism destroys our humanity.

480
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:12.960
For that reason, I think it's probably, in my opinion, one of the stronger episodes because of its point of view.

481
00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:26.400
I think that thin ice is saying the same thing because you're essentially, you know, feeding children to a giant sea monster that, you know, poos out fuel and then selling it on the market.

482
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:30.780
So it's doing a sort of capitalism, something that also isn't an algory, although it kind of is.

483
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.460
But I think it does it better.

484
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.420
My problem, I was the source of the mixed opinions on oxygen.

485
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:41.340
I don't think that it satisfactorily does what it sets out to do.

486
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:58.739
It's supposed to be, let's see how scary space is, but as I said on the episode, it doesn't actually manage to achieve a version of space that's any different from things like Impossible Planet or what we've been doing for ages and ages.

487
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:07.679
And so, I think that it doesn't quite work for that reason, and it's a little bit kind of lacking in character and incident, I think.

488
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:16.920
It does atmosphere, but the characters are pretty rudimentary and it is just, you know, we walk away from zombies and then some other zombies come and we walk away from them, you know.

489
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:28.079
But it is good to see the dynamic between Bill and Nadol and the doctor sort of forming properly here so we can then carry that through the next trilogy of episodes through to the end of the season.

490
00:39:28.139 --> 00:39:38.280
It carries definitely into extremists where I think the scenes between Bill and Nadol are really good and set them set them up as one of the great companion double acts of all time.

491
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:40.380
I really love their dynamic.

492
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:45.960
I think that I like Bill Leonardo better together than Bill and the doctor and not all of the doctor.

493
00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:48.179
Yeah, it's fun, isn't it?

494
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:52.860
Because he's kind of dismissive of her and a little bit kind of hostile to her initially.

495
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.440
And then they do their 1st big adventure together.

496
00:39:55.500 --> 00:40:01.199
And I think that is one of the great features of oxygen is that it makes that happen properly for the 1st time.

497
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:06.599
So that scene extremists when they're walking down the corridor together and she's like, you're kind of a badass, aren't you?

498
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:07.199
awesome.

499
00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.239
Well, let's talk about extremists then.

500
00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:14.099
I think it's the strongest of the trilogy, like a certainly would be giving it business, 8.5 .

501
00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:19.079
None of that trilogy quite gets there for me in terms of 910 or whatever.

502
00:40:19.139 --> 00:40:24.780
But I really like the atmosphere down where the veritas is and all of that in the episode.

503
00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:29.820
And the fact that the doctor is blind in that ongoing plot, I really think it's a really strong episode.

504
00:40:29.940 --> 00:40:32.039
I think it's the 2nd best story of the season.

505
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:33.599
I love the atmosphere.

506
00:40:33.659 --> 00:40:38.820
I thought who knew that Doctor Who meeting Dan Brown would be so successful.

507
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:44.699
It's also, I think, the start of the best three-part story since Delta and the Bannerman, maybe.

508
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.760
No, I take that.

509
00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:49.440
I take that back.

510
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.780
I think it's a really, really strong episode.

511
00:40:51.840 --> 00:41:00.780
I think it's heavy on atmosphere and I really love the fact that even though it's nothing very new from Moffat, I think it's a real encapsulation of everything that he does well.

512
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.960
I just, I can't quite put my finger up, I really like that episode.

513
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:08.820
And also the fact that Missy is so heavily involved in that episode too.

514
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:15.300
I think that is also another real strength for it, which is why I think, yeah, sort of lifts at this point in the season.

515
00:41:16.019 --> 00:41:19.199
I really enjoy the Monk trilogy.

516
00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:24.119
I would probably say the next episode is stronger for me.

517
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:29.280
But I do love all the business in extremists and the concepts.

518
00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:41.460
I think the thing I love about this trilogy of stories is the concepts that are interwoven through it, and they're all kind of related to each other, but they're all roofing on it in a different way.

519
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:43.500
I would agree with James.

520
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:52.380
I think that the pyramid at the end of the world edges this one out for me, although I think that the atmosphere is absolutely there.

521
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:59.159
The introduction of the monks works really well, the gag with the pope turning up and ruining your date is absolutely brilliant.

522
00:41:59.219 --> 00:42:01.320
Only before he gets sent off to that forced labour camp.

523
00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:07.019
I think it is really fun.

524
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:17.820
I would give an extra whole point out of 10. for that shot where we go down under the table in the CERN cafeteria to see all of that.

525
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:19.139
Fenrich shot.

526
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:21.840
It's so good.

527
00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:26.159
Who'd have thought that cribbing from Nick Mallet would make an episode better.

528
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:34.139
See, Pyramid at the end of the world for me is just slightly below this at an 8 and I think it's a really strong episode.

529
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:35.159
I think Erica's great.

530
00:42:35.219 --> 00:42:37.199
Yeah, needs an extra point just for Erica.

531
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:38.039
Yeah, yeah.

532
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:44.159
And that whole parallel stuff happening and what you think is going to be the end of the world isn't the end of the world.

533
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:49.019
It's, you know, the doctor's blindness and Bill wanting to save him.

534
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:52.260
And certainly an episode I came back to thinking, oh, is this going to be any good?

535
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:54.000
And I thought it was good.

536
00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:55.260
I thought it was solid, right?

537
00:42:55.380 --> 00:43:00.539
But I just, you know, the doctor is president and is that in this at much?

538
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.960
Not really, but yes, that's why they come and get him.

539
00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:12.239
I guess the thing is, we're in made up Stan again and I don't think I liked having made up a stand the 1st time around.

540
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.880
That was a bit of a, you know, and they've come back to it, and that's fine.

541
00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:20.219
And it seems to have shifted somewhat around the planet since the last time we saw it.

542
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:21.780
Well, of course it has. made up.

543
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:31.320
It's just a, it's actually, it's the island equivalent of the Daleks hollowing the core out of the earth and travelling around the galaxy.

544
00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:34.500
Look, Pyramids and Doctor Who, you can't go wrong, I think.

545
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:39.000
This again, like so many episodes this season is a bit of a mood piece.

546
00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:41.579
It's structured a little bit weirdly for a dog 2 episode.

547
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:46.860
It doesn't quite build in the way that a doctor 2 episode usually does, but I really like it.

548
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:51.840
I think if the 3rd episode of the trilogy had kept up the quality of the 1st two.

549
00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:54.360
We'd be talking about a classic set of stories.

550
00:43:54.539 --> 00:44:01.260
I think that what it does is it's incredibly well plotted and that a lot of things happen.

551
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:10.500
We're coming towards the back end of the season where there's a couple of mood pieces, which don't really have a great deal going on, and I think maybe oxygen was that as well.

552
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:15.119
Whereas this is quite interestingly plotted, I think.

553
00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:24.420
And I think the ending of it, and sadly, I can no longer remember how I felt about it, but it looks like the doctor has won.

554
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.239
He's definitely won and the monks are disappointed and the clock goes back. can you tell from their faces?

555
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:33.780
Yeah, yeah, no, they're all looking at their phones and they're coming across and stuff.

556
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.800
It's a whole thing.

557
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:43.320
And then Bill goes to the monks to get the doctor's site back so he can be saved.

558
00:44:43.380 --> 00:44:45.059
And it's such a surprise.

559
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:49.920
It's such a surprising ending and it's kind of like, oh, so we're going to have the monks for another week now.

560
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:54.599
And I wish I could remember how I felt about that at the time because I reckon it's a pretty great ending.

561
00:44:54.659 --> 00:44:59.579
And in common with so many episodes of this season, some great imagery.

562
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:05.039
So that scene where the fighter jet is coming in and then the pilots are just replaced by me.

563
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:05.820
So good.

564
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:06.780
Yeah, it's so good.

565
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:07.679
It's so unsettling.

566
00:45:07.739 --> 00:45:08.639
Yeah, yeah.

567
00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:14.940
Did we know coming into this that there was going to be a trilogy of stories around the monks?

568
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:15.719
I don't think so.

569
00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:17.039
Had it been publicised that way?

570
00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:20.099
I think it was kind of known on, you know, outpost galafrey.

571
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:24.420
We do actually talk about it at the time in those 3 episodes for FTA.

572
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.099
We can't quite remember.

573
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:31.860
So I think probably for most people at home, they're going to be surprised by that ending.

574
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:33.300
I just can't remember if I was.

575
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:34.679
Yeah.

576
00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.559
So the lie of the land wraps up this trilogy.

577
00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:43.199
It is the least satisfying of the episodes for me, but it still gets a 7.5 .

578
00:45:43.260 --> 00:45:57.360
I still think there's a lot in there that I really do like, but the unforgivable thing that I struggle to get over is the fake out regeneration, which is done for effect and we're going to, I just kind of went, oh, problematic scene on so many levels.

579
00:45:57.420 --> 00:46:01.019
Yeah, I mean, doing things for effect is okay because it's TV.

580
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:08.699
But what for me ruins that scene is how cavalier everyone is once the reveal happens.

581
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:24.900
And in our episode, I contrasted it with Cursor Fenrik, where the doctor destroys Ace's faith in him in order to do a space thing and then is visibly distressed at what he's had to do to her.

582
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.820
Whereas here we all laugh.

583
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:28.860
You know, she's surrounded by...

584
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:29.699
It's really neat.

585
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.519
So it's the wrong emotions.

586
00:46:32.579 --> 00:46:33.000
Yeah.

587
00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:42.119
I think the other thing too is it's just absolutely full of voiceovers and we're constantly just being told what's happening rather than shown.

588
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:44.760
I also don't over-promise and undersell.

589
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:54.000
The idea of this kind of parallel future, if you want, where the monks are in charge, and you know, the invasion's happened, and it's this Orwellian version of Earth.

590
00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:55.380
It's such a great setup.

591
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.960
How can you not do anything with it in the episode?

592
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:12.119
Yeah, in a way, and this would never happen the modern era, but in a way, maybe this episode would have been a great four parter in the classic era, where you really dig into this dystopian future and investigate it.

593
00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:15.480
Maybe the monk should have taken over at the end of extremists.

594
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:24.119
So I have been on record saying the, this is not a good episode, what we really needed was twice as much of it.

595
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:26.639
But I get what you mean.

596
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:31.199
Like, that it's actually a shame in the classic series that we never had anything quite like that.

597
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:37.920
Perhaps the closest that we come to are those parallel universe scenes in Inferno.

598
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:39.840
The best story of seasons in seven.

599
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:40.619
As you know, Nathan.

600
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.139
Yes, the least successful story of season seven.

601
00:47:43.739 --> 00:47:49.980
The thing that makes me really uncomfortable coming back to the scene, the revelations scene.

602
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:51.360
I mean, it doesn't work in a lot of ways.

603
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:53.099
Why is he regenerating?

604
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:54.480
She doesn't know about regeneration.

605
00:47:54.539 --> 00:47:57.840
So what's the point of that apart from to put in the trailer?

606
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:03.599
is that it's a group of men laughing at a queer woman.

607
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:05.039
That's not deliberate.

608
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:06.179
It's not.

609
00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:10.679
And you know, if it was a good scene, you wouldn't care about those optics, but it's also a bad scene, which makes it even worse.

610
00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:14.639
Yeah, obviously it's not deliberate, but the optics of it.

611
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:24.539
Because it's bad, just sort of glare in your face. and it's just it's probably the thing that takes me out of enjoyment of the episode.

612
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:27.539
I do, however, like Capaldi's coat very much.

613
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.000
It looks very good sizzling up with regeneration energy.

614
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:48.539
All right, the Empress of Mars, Nathan, Snog, marry, avoid.

615
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:52.139
Catch love, God's Acre, Friday.

616
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.599
You'd have to shag someone called Catch Love, sure.

617
00:48:55.980 --> 00:48:59.039
Catch Love is just beautiful.

618
00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:01.079
Like he's so pretty.

619
00:49:01.139 --> 00:49:02.280
Holy crap.

620
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:09.659
So I think I'll marry him so that I can look at him all the time as well as whatever else that entails.

621
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:12.059
God's acre.

622
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.760
God's acre is he's a bit rough, isn't he?

623
00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:16.559
He's a little bit kind of rougher.

624
00:49:16.619 --> 00:49:19.860
I would probably...

625
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:36.659
Well, see, now I'm starting to rethink because again, if I wanted to marry Mr. Razor because he'll bring me tea, Friday does that, he does bring tea for the officers, he does seem to be very obedient, uh, which...

626
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:37.920
Yeah, except when he's not.

627
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:47.280
So maybe I'm avoiding him, I'm having a quick fling with God's Acre and I'm marrying Catchlove, even though apparently he would treat me very badly.

628
00:49:47.340 --> 00:49:49.980
Yeah, that's a collection of words I never thought I'd do.

629
00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:52.500
Well, I'd agree with you.

630
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:54.480
I don't want to see Friday out of his suit.

631
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:55.440
No.

632
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:58.019
That's right.

633
00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.340
Upsetting wedding night.

634
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:03.840
Interesting how they never really show that again after Cold War.

635
00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:04.260
No.

636
00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:05.699
For good reason.

637
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.260
Look, I really enjoy that episode.

638
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:27.239
I love the fact that there's so much time for Bill and the doctor, not to say, like, I didn't want Nardo to be in it, but obviously now that I miss you come in at the end, but I just like the fact there's a big chunk there that's just them after 4 weeks of the team, and it's nice to have that before we head off to the finale, and I, and I really think it's a very underrated episode.

639
00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:28.559
It's really enjoyable.

640
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:37.500
Mark Gator brings a thing to the series that nobody else does, which is this kind of reverence for the way that classic Doctor Who told stories.

641
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:42.420
And even though I don't think any of his episodes quite scale the heights.

642
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.539
All of them are perfectly acceptable and a lot of fun.

643
00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:49.199
I think this is in his wheelhouse and it's the better because of that.

644
00:50:49.260 --> 00:50:51.119
Yeah, it's Ice Warriors in cave sets.

645
00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:53.699
I mean it's weird. absolutely the thing we did in the 70s.

646
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:54.300
Yeah.

647
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:55.860
And Victoriana.

648
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's perfect I think it's really fun.

649
00:50:58.260 --> 00:50:59.159
Just properly fun.

650
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:05.099
Is Cosapeladon the last time we had Ice Warriors in cave sets and a mention of Queen Victoria?

651
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:06.539
Maybe.

652
00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:09.599
Your memory's better than mine.

653
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:12.659
The eaters of light.

654
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:13.679
Not the mood piece.

655
00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:15.900
Yeah, I think it's really beautiful, actually.

656
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:24.119
Like, it's just sort of strange and weird and interesting, and it's a little bit kind of low key and a little bit sombre.

657
00:51:24.179 --> 00:51:34.019
It's like an era coming to a close and given that she's done that before, you know, Ronan Monroe kind of does a good job of that.

658
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.539
It's by a proper writer.

659
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:42.360
It does some stuff with children's literature, which is what survival did as well.

660
00:51:42.420 --> 00:51:43.739
I think it's really good.

661
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:45.840
Like, I think it's overlooked.

662
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:47.940
Not many people even think about it.

663
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.420
Um, but I do think it's nice.

664
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:52.980
I'm glad that Doctor Who did it.

665
00:51:53.039 --> 00:52:08.219
And I'm also glad to see Ronan Monroe come back after like 27 years come back to the program now that she is a successful and well-known playwright, someone kind of out of our league, who is sort of slumming it with us for a week.

666
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:09.059
Yeah.

667
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:13.559
I always say the worst crime Doctor Who can commit as being boring.

668
00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:17.039
And I do think the eaters of light is a little bit dull in places.

669
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:23.280
But having said that, I think there's so much to it, and it is about something that I can't bring myself to dislike it.

670
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:28.320
I was going to ask, what you prefer, it is right or survival.

671
00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:30.119
Survival.

672
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:36.539
It's hard because the nostalgia factor in what it meant to our childhoods.

673
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:41.460
I think in context, survival is more of a departure.

674
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:56.579
Like it's more different from anything that's ever happened on the show before, and it's amazing to have the show go out, doing something that it's never done before, and doing something that it should perhaps always have been doing, and when the show comes back, that's kind of what it does.

675
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:59.639
Yeah, it's kind of the template in a lot of ways.

676
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:07.440
It's so very Doctor Who, the fact that Doctor Who's last classic story of the 20th century paves the way for what comes.

677
00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:08.760
It's not a closure for the series.

678
00:53:08.820 --> 00:53:12.420
It's also looking to the future of what it was. in the direction that it would go.

679
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:14.219
Well, on this episode.

680
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:23.340
I had the Todd experience, my own experience because the 1st time watching this season, this was the episode I did not like at all, well, not like at all.

681
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:34.800
I just found it really disappointing and I was putting it in negative territory like the worst of the previous season and whatever that other fake bush one was in season eight.

682
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:36.719
Forest of the Mountain.

683
00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.800
Thank you the 1st of the night.

684
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:41.400
Well, you know, you know, Schum Bush, how it just disappears?

685
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:45.780
That would be a great Kate Bush drag queen name.

686
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.519
It might well be.

687
00:53:47.579 --> 00:53:50.039
I thoroughly enjoyed it.

688
00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:55.500
I think there's so many lovely moments for Bill Fernando, for the doctor.

689
00:53:55.559 --> 00:54:04.320
I think it's actually a lovely moment before the finale and, and, um, yeah, what I once gave 6 out of 10 to A's and Egybate.

690
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:07.980
Like, again, quite a moment, but a good one.

691
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:16.500
I also had the Todd experience because at the time I was quite disappointed in this story because I love survival.

692
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:29.460
I was sort of eight, 9 when the show ended in the 80s and Sylvester was my daughter because because I was just at that age where it kind of grabs you.

693
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:33.719
I mean, I've been watching it since I was 3 or 4 on my father's knee.

694
00:54:33.780 --> 00:54:36.960
My 1st Doctor Who story with 5 doctors.

695
00:54:37.019 --> 00:55:00.780
And because I expected so much of it, I was really quite underwhelmed, but rewatching it, I was pleasantly surprised that there's a lot of really quite touching moments between both the regulars and the characters unique to the episode, which is really quite beautiful.

696
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:05.519
I wish they'd been a little bit more to it, but having said that, I think what's there is enough.

697
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.760
Yeah, I think I agree with you, James.

698
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:10.320
Like, I had high expectations.

699
00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:14.880
The 1st time I watched it based on what she delivered with survival and it didn't meet those expectations.

700
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:17.400
Like I thought that's not delivering what I wanted.

701
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:20.099
And so I was quite harsh on it.

702
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:23.760
And then when you come back to things, you go, okay, that's where they're going.

703
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:25.019
And I'm really pleased.

704
00:55:25.139 --> 00:55:26.579
Should have just brought the cheetah people back.

705
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.739
I makeup.

706
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:34.500
Like, there's a thing about the old series and the new series and they're never, ever going to be comparable.

707
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:47.400
When we watch the Eaters of Lies, we had been living with the ideas and images and performances and all of that from survival for 27 years.

708
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:50.280
They were kind of part of us.

709
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.019
Yeah, yeah.

710
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:59.340
And the Eders of Light hasn't had time, even now, to take that position.

711
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:05.340
And so, in a way, eaters of light and survival are not directly comparable.

712
00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:11.699
And I don't think it's meaningful to say that survival is better than eaters of life.

713
00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:12.420
They're so different.

714
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:13.139
Yeah, exactly.

715
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:14.099
Fair enough.

716
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:18.300
Well, enough in time, and the doctor falls.

717
00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:21.179
I'm just gonna throw it out. extraordinary.

718
00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:22.440
Like absolutely amazing.

719
00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:24.840
Top 5 of the new series.

720
00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:28.320
Yeah, totally agree. out of this world.

721
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:31.199
And not at all, I think what we expected.

722
00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:35.400
So we've had a missy plus the cybermen finale before.

723
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:46.139
And as I said, this is Moffat saying, can we make the 10th planet Cybermen work on television in 2017?

724
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:53.340
And like I do remember a time when we laughed at those cybermen.

725
00:56:53.400 --> 00:57:04.739
The 10th planet cybermen, they're clearly a dead end when the show brings back the cybermen later that year, they're completely redesigned so that they're not like that anymore.

726
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:08.400
And we allowed real life to influence the imagery.

727
00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:14.519
So they somehow got labelled as this cut price cheap version of the side without looking at all the things that made them really interesting.

728
00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:15.360
Yeah.

729
00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:19.139
And to me, that's why these episodes are so strong.

730
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:31.500
It's taking something that was derided by the general public and by fandom for a long time and taking all the elements that we thought were pants, or at least stockings over the face.

731
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:52.139
Um, and making those, the, the things that are so horrifying and scary, which they always were intense by that, um, about this version of the side and the, the slow erosion of someone's humanity and the, the turning off people's emotion, happening to me right now.

732
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:55.079
You'll still be in pain, you just won't care.

733
00:57:55.139 --> 00:58:01.920
Like, oh, like this, this is harrowing this story, but it's just beautiful.

734
00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:08.579
Okay, how can you have a two-part story that is so different atmospherically and yet so successful.

735
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:15.179
Both of the episodes work so beautifully well together, even while doing them off that thing of having slightly different 2nd part.

736
00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:21.119
I actually think the Doctor Falls might be slightly better than world enough in time, and that is really saying something.

737
00:58:21.300 --> 00:58:25.139
I mean, it just introduces a new location, doesn't it?

738
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:26.639
Like, that's basically what happens.

739
00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:32.039
We shift the focus to a new location, which is alluded to in the 1st episode, but not properly visited.

740
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:35.159
And then we see the consequences.

741
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:37.380
Like it's not much like the other one.

742
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:39.420
It's a little bit like the monks trilogy.

743
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:49.260
It's like just sort of 2 stages of a particular event that are quite different from one another and that each tell a pretty good story with a cliffhanger.

744
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:54.599
I think that the cybermen are always kind of disappointing.

745
00:58:54.719 --> 00:59:04.500
Like they're always a bit rubbish and they never really live up to what we imagine them to be.

746
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:13.500
And you can see Russell trying to make them scary again by having those scenes where people are being marched into Battersea Power Station and stuff like that.

747
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:22.380
And I think that that's a really underrated genesis of the cybermen's story, but this just completely blows it out of the water.

748
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:23.820
It's so much better.

749
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:32.940
Like just a better, more terrifying conception of of where the cybermen come from and what they are, how inevitable they are. think it's just so good.

750
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:40.019
I think we've been trained to think, with good reason, the dark macabre doctor is always the best version.

751
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:44.400
And so world and oftentime is really great because it's dripping in atmosphere.

752
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:47.579
It's got this immense foreboding to it all throughout.

753
00:59:47.639 --> 01:00:02.099
But then you changed that bucolic location in the Dr. Falls and you strip away all of those atmospheric trappings and you're just left with the drama of the situation and what's happening between the characters and it's even better.

754
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:06.780
I like the juxtaposition of the styles of these 2 episodes.

755
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:13.260
The 1st one is a kind of slow burn, psychological horror story.

756
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:19.320
And then the final episode is based on prestige, basically.

757
01:00:19.380 --> 01:00:21.539
Cottage under siege.

758
01:00:22.139 --> 01:00:40.679
It's also kind of a little bit of a remake of time of the doctor as well, where the doctor stops and stays in order to save a bunch of people who live in a kind of rural area and are under attack by, among other things, Cyberman.

759
01:00:40.739 --> 01:00:42.840
Like I think time of the doctor is very good.

760
01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:44.940
I think this is perhaps more successful than that.

761
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:48.780
I think the big shame is it's not the finale.

762
01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:50.820
Like, it's not what Capoli goes out on.

763
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:55.079
We say during the episodes that this would have been an all-time great regeneration story.

764
01:00:55.139 --> 01:00:57.360
And it still is just slightly delayed.

765
01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:04.440
Well, look, we'll need twice upon a time to the whole retrospective, I know some of you're going to be discussing this in a couple of weeks time.

766
01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:05.579
I'm just going to say this.

767
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:06.239
I have watched it.

768
01:01:06.300 --> 01:01:07.619
I did like it.

769
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:13.139
I think to get the warm farewells for the regulars, really important.

770
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:16.320
The use of the 1st doctor is not great.

771
01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:22.199
And I think they missed a beat by not bringing back Carol Anne Ford for one of those sequences with him.

772
01:01:22.260 --> 01:01:27.780
And Rachel Talalay, who's usually my favourite director, Ben and Polly.

773
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:29.400
What was going on there?

774
01:01:29.460 --> 01:01:32.940
Like, you know, did we just drag 2 people off the street and decide that's what we're going to go with?

775
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:34.500
Hey, Ben was in Holyaks.

776
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:46.739
But I'm just saying, I'm just saying like, yeah, there's some takeaways for me, but obviously listeners, you've got that to enjoy in a couple of weeks' time when the boys talk about, we call him giant Ben because he's about 6 feet taller than Michael Grace.

777
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:04.380
Jane, snug, marry, avoid.

778
01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:06.719
Heather, Eliza, Erika.

779
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.300
I'd have to marry Heather.

780
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:12.599
It would have to be a sexless marriage because I'm not a lesbian.

781
01:02:12.659 --> 01:02:13.139
This lady?

782
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:20.760
And she, she might bring me back to life in a 1000 years' time on a mondace in cybership.

783
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:24.360
Just be attracted by that little sparkling her eye.

784
01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:25.800
I think I would...

785
01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:30.239
Oh, no, I kind of also want to marry Erica because she's just so fabulous.

786
01:02:30.300 --> 01:02:30.719
Awesome.

787
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:32.760
No, you could marry both.

788
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:35.460
Polyamory, probably Amory.

789
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:39.480
She'd let you in at nice if you got out the front and you couldn't work out the alarm code.

790
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:44.519
And who's the 3rd one?

791
01:02:45.059 --> 01:02:45.659
Eliza.

792
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:48.239
The mother in knock knock.

793
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:52.199
I think I would have to avoid Eliza.

794
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:56.340
She seems like a lovely woman, but I don't want lice.

795
01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:58.920
I need a cream, yeah.

796
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:01.679
Well done.

797
01:03:01.739 --> 01:03:02.039
Thank you.

798
01:03:02.099 --> 01:03:04.619
So, reflecting all of that.

799
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:07.260
One to watch, one to avoid, one that's underrated.

800
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:10.199
The one to watch, I think, is thin ice.

801
01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:11.699
I think it's really amazingly good.

802
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:15.179
I think the underrated one. is the 80s of light.

803
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:20.820
And there's none that I would really avoid, but maybe knock knock.

804
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:22.139
Peter?

805
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:22.860
Want to watch?

806
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:26.699
Absolutely the finale, one of the best Doctor Who stories that's ever been told.

807
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.820
The one that I think is underrated is extremists.

808
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:35.760
I think it's quite highly rated, but I think it should be more highly rated because it's so successful in delivering mood.

809
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:39.239
I want to avoid, I don't think there's one to avoid in this season.

810
01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:44.699
I think part of the reason that this is so successful is that there is not a bad episode.

811
01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:48.119
So I don't think there's one that I would avoid this season.

812
01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:55.079
The underrated one, I would probably say for me knock knock.

813
01:03:55.139 --> 01:04:01.980
It was the one I reevaluated the most on rewatching. one to watch the entire season.

814
01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:05.699
Like, to me, I can't. 12 to watch.

815
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:07.079
Yeah.

816
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:09.420
Well, it's good advice, though.

817
01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:21.659
Like, to me, I have to watch it all from beginning to end, it's probably the most like in hindsight, probably the strongest season.

818
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:27.840
You've touched on this Peter earlier in this episode is it holds together really well.

819
01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:30.360
It's a really strong set of episodes.

820
01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:31.679
There's nothing that's terrible.

821
01:04:31.739 --> 01:04:32.579
You know.

822
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:36.239
Some of them are middling, but it all holds together quite well as a whole.

823
01:04:36.300 --> 01:04:46.739
I can't think of another modern series or indeed classic series apart from maybe a couple of the Hinchcliffe years that don't have an unambiguously bad story in them.

824
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:50.219
There's always a poor relation, like not this season.

825
01:04:50.280 --> 01:05:06.719
For me, one to watch could be any number of ones from thin ice to the finale to Empress of Mars, but I guess I'm going to put Empress of Mars as my underrated, one to avoid, well, there's only bits and pieces.

826
01:05:06.780 --> 01:05:10.440
The last 20 minutes a smile, basically, that's it. to a grimace.

827
01:05:13.500 --> 01:05:16.079
We've got Jenny Laird award nomination.

828
01:05:16.139 --> 01:05:17.340
Oh, speaking of grimace.

829
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:22.860
Is there anything that you would give a Jenny Laird Award nomination to for this series?

830
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:29.639
The reaction to the fake regeneration is something that bobs to my mind, but what else is there?

831
01:05:29.699 --> 01:05:30.420
I'm just trying to think.

832
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:41.460
I think all of life, the land, is a bit of a puzzling, creative choice, and it pains me to say it, because I think Toby Whithouse is so good, generally, but it's just such a missed opportunity.

833
01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:45.360
It's a really interesting setup, which they then don't do anything with.

834
01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:55.320
And I think one of the reasons we don't like that regeneration seat, there's myriad other reasons is because it feels like the dramatic climax of the episode and it's unearned and it goes nowhere.

835
01:05:55.380 --> 01:06:02.159
I think it actually spoils it slightly too when in the Doctor Falls.

836
01:06:02.219 --> 01:06:08.579
We see his hand blazing with regeneration energy only a few weeks after we last saw it.

837
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.780
I think that was a bit of a bad idea, I think.

838
01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:17.159
And then he doesn't regenerate again.

839
01:06:17.219 --> 01:06:19.199
Yeah, that's right.

840
01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:20.400
It's a bit of a tease.

841
01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:25.320
This is rather unimaginative of me, but I have to agree with you.

842
01:06:25.980 --> 01:06:27.840
It's never unimaginative.

843
01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:35.219
I really struggled to find a puzzling creative choice in this season.

844
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:44.159
There are some things that don't work, but I think the fake regeneration scene is problematic and why you're doing it.

845
01:06:44.219 --> 01:06:46.619
No, you could have done that any other way.

846
01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:56.699
Um, and you could have given it more meaning if it had been closer to the the curse ofenric reason for doing that.

847
01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:02.579
You know, like her faith was keeping this world together or something.

848
01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:04.679
And it's something similar to that.

849
01:07:04.739 --> 01:07:16.860
Her brain is the thing that's, yeah, fuelling it, but if those ideas have been more closely linked, maybe there could have been a purpose to that scene in that episode.

850
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:26.820
It's what you say, Peter, about that regeneration thing is just for something that happens in the middle of the episode and it isn't the climax and that's the same point that you're making.

851
01:07:26.940 --> 01:07:35.820
If the climax of the episode had been destroying Bill's faith and doing a whole thing, and then we'd be less nasty to her afterwards, I think it would have been forgivable.

852
01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:38.820
But it's just a sort of dumb thing that happens in the middle of the episode.

853
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:46.679
And then we go on to such a terrible climax that it needs lots and lots of underpinning with voiceovers and stuff.

854
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:50.820
And even then, we're not quite sure what... breaks the Terrence Dix rule.

855
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.139
Never cruel or cowardly.

856
01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:54.840
It's a cruel thing to do to Bill. odd.

857
01:07:54.900 --> 01:08:05.820
I think we could have had a Jenny Ladd moment in Empress of Mars because we've got Ison Churchman playing Alpha Centauri, which is just an amazing moment when that happens.

858
01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:07.500
That goes back to Planet of the Spiders.

859
01:08:07.559 --> 01:08:10.019
They could have exhumed Jenny Led to play the Empress.

860
01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:10.800
How about that?

861
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.739
That'd be a Jenny Ladd moment.

862
01:08:14.039 --> 01:08:16.260
Bonnie Langford Award.

863
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:17.819
Startling discovering.

864
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:19.020
Oh, Pearl.

865
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:19.739
Pearl.

866
01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:20.220
Who else?

867
01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:21.420
Has to be Pearl.

868
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:24.239
And the runner-up is obviously Matt Lucas.

869
01:08:24.300 --> 01:08:27.300
Yeah, yeah, unequivocally is Pearl.

870
01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:27.840
Yeah.

871
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:28.140
Yeah.

872
01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:29.039
Totally.

873
01:08:29.100 --> 01:08:36.720
And and for the same reason as the Bonnie Langford Award, you know, like Bonnie Langford comes along, everyone's kind of cross, Ian Levine's cross.

874
01:08:36.779 --> 01:08:42.899
It's Violet Elizabeth Bott coming in to destroy our program and it turns out she's absolutely superb.

875
01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:51.600
Uh, we didn't have an opinion about Pearl going in except for the opinion that we got from her role as as Bill.

876
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:55.619
Info for the future, friend from the future, photo from the future.

877
01:08:56.279 --> 01:08:59.340
Sums up that episode, doesn't it?

878
01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:03.960
And she's absolutely magnificent, just one of the best things that ever happened to the modern era.

879
01:09:04.020 --> 01:09:09.659
A great companion, just truly superb, charming, funny, wonderful, just brilliant.

880
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:15.239
I look forward to Pearl Mackey coming back in new, new, new Doctor Who in 30 years' time working for units.

881
01:09:15.300 --> 01:09:16.560
Yeah, would that be awesome?

882
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:29.640
A close 2nd to Bill, I think, is the 2nd half of the season's ensemble cast is it just works so well.

883
01:09:30.300 --> 01:09:40.500
The bringing in of Missy, the sort of building of that plot, and it culminates in those last 2 episodes with those characters who just, it's just kind of glorious.

884
01:09:40.739 --> 01:09:44.880
Peter Pearl, Matt, Michelle, they all just work brilliantly together.

885
01:09:44.939 --> 01:09:50.159
Yeah, the strongest cast of the modern era in that in that 2nd half of this season.

886
01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:51.600
It's the PPMMs.

887
01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:21.239
Well, that's all the time we have for now.

888
01:10:21.300 --> 01:10:28.619
We'll be back on Christmas Day, to say a final festive farewell to Peter Capaldi's doctor, in twice upon a time.

889
01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:47.579
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts, and you can keep up with us on our website, Flight3Entirety.com, where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500-year diary, and the 2nd grade and bountiful human empire.

890
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:52.439
Until next time, we'll catch you at Christmas if you're feeling ridiculous.

891
01:10:52.500 --> 01:10:55.020
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

892
01:10:55.079 --> 01:10:56.279
See you soon.

893
01:10:56.340 --> 01:10:57.300
Ta da.

894
01:10:57.359 --> 01:10:57.779
Good night.

895
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:08.520
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todby, will be Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.

896
01:11:08.579 --> 01:11:10.739
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

897
01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:17.159
This episode, the PPMMs, was recorded on the 10th of November 2024 and released on the 8th of December.

898
01:11:20.220 --> 01:11:28.739
Before we return with our Christmas episode, maximum power, we'll be back with our coverage of series D, starting on the 21st of December with rescue.

899
01:11:28.739 --> 01:11:37.020
Check out our website at maximumpowerpodcast.com or our new blue sky account, also at maximumpowerpodcast.com.

900
01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:42.899
Final say about this season, then.

901
01:11:43.079 --> 01:11:46.680
If you want to leave the listeners with something, what would you say?

902
01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:49.500
This is the best Capaldi season.

903
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:52.319
I know there is a strong argument for series 8.

904
01:11:52.380 --> 01:12:00.359
Um, but I think unambiguously, this tells a good set of stories with a good set of characters what more could you ask for?

905
01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:12.960
It's funny the way we complained about series 9, how introspective it was and how focussed it was just on the 2 leads, and that there wasn't kind of much beyond that.

906
01:12:13.020 --> 01:12:25.739
And I still liked 9 and I thought it did weird and experimental things, but what is great is to just sort of come back and just do some solid fun Doctor Who for 12 weeks.

907
01:12:25.739 --> 01:12:27.659
Just do it.

908
01:12:27.720 --> 01:12:29.159
It's just like really good.

909
01:12:29.220 --> 01:12:29.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

910
01:12:32.819 --> 01:12:34.680
I just love this series.

911
01:12:34.739 --> 01:12:39.239
It's, it is, it is just, it's just gorgeous.

912
01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:42.899
I know it has its faults, but I just love it.

913
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:44.939
Well, as I said, at the beginning.

914
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:46.319
It's refreshing.

915
01:12:46.380 --> 01:12:56.819
We've all said it's fun and it's certainly, I think, Moffat going out on a high. ending with an all-time classic story. can't go wrong.

916
01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:57.840
Yeah, yeah.

917
01:12:58.020 --> 01:12:59.939
Okay, that's all I got.

918
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:00.779
Yeah I think that's good.

919
01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:01.800
Sorry, is that okay?

920
01:13:01.920 --> 01:13:03.119
No, that's fine.

921
01:13:03.180 --> 01:13:04.260
Like, it's really hard.

922
01:13:04.260 --> 01:13:05.399
Yeah.