Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the
only Doctor Who podcast built from triumph and heartbreak and
boredom and laughter and cutting your toenails.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd.
I'm James.
And I'm triumphant boredom.
Well, since the doctor met Bill properly for the 1st time, we've
been pursued by a puddle, attacked by emojis insulted by an
aristocrat, evicted by bugs, suffocated by capitalism, simulated
by cadavers, threatened by bacteria, taken over by fascists
stranded on Mars, saved by children, shot in the chest, and
inspired by the doctor to fight for our lives.
Let's see how we feel about it all in the series 10
retrospective.
Welcome to our retrospective, and I always start with the hard
hitting questions, so here's a snug Mary avoid.
Mr. Huffle, the monks, a Mondassian Cyberman.
I mean, I don't think you could marry a Mondassian sideman
couldn't wake up to that voice every day. don't know.
I don't know.
I think Mr. Huffle, Mr. Huffle feels pain, so he's going to be
easy to manipulate.
And I imagine that's what marriage is about.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it is. marry him.
Todd, he'll marry him. you'd be Mr. Huffle as well.
Mr. Huffle.
I think I would have to snog the cyberman because...
The kiss would always be open-mouthed, wouldn't it?
Yeah, this is very good.
It would be like kissing Roger Moore, wouldn't it, really?
You'll avoid the monks?
I would avoid the monks because I think kissing the monks would
involve in like bits falling off and stuff, like things between
your teeth.
I just don't think that that's a fun experience for anyone.
Not even the viewers.
Especially not the viewers.
Okay.
What do you think of the monks?
Do you think they were successful?
I like the monks.
I think their design is quite interesting if a little bit
generic.
I don't think they're used very well in lie of the land, but I
think in the 2 preceding episodes, especially when they're down
underneath the Vatican and they're being shot very well and
they're coming out of the shadows.
I think they're really quite effective.
It's funny the simplicity of it, isn't it?
Like, there are 3 sort of big monsters from the Moffat era, aren't
there?
The weeping angels.
I know that they predate the Moffit era, but the weeping angels
the silence and the monks, they seem to be like the three.
Yeah, the 10 poles.
Yeah, yeah.
And they're visually striking.
They're completely distinct from one another and they're very high
concept.
The monks may be less so, but the others certainly.
And I think they work really well.
I don't think they're the sort of thing that anyone will be
itching to bring back. discovering this time through and watching
those 3 episodes and seeing how much they are a vehicle for
Moffatt's critique of religion made me more interested in them.
So, yeah, no, I like them.
I mean, they've got stupid things like that thing where they open
their mouth and and just words come out, what sort of nonsense is
that?
Quite like that.
But yeah, I think they're great.
You can handwave that away, though, because, you know, they're
appearing in this form for the human race.
Yeah.
Like, there's not their true form. because you might find them
attractive.
Yeah, I, I, I, I, as a concept, I love the monks.
I think the episodes that they're in are lopsided and flawed, but
I probably enjoy.
I probably enjoy them more than more than most.
It's pity that we didn't have the monks up against the space
Anglicans.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That would have been interesting.
Do you think they could have been like a season threat rather than
just a 3 episode thing or?
Well, I think the thing that we talked about during that trilogy
was how it was Doctor Who experimenting with a different way of
telling a story.
And it's the kind of serialisation that routinely happens in just
about everything now where you just tell a self-contained story
but it's at different stages of the invasion.
And Simon made the distinction between a three-parter.
I think you did as well, a bit James, between a three-parter and a
trilogy.
And I like that Doctor Who tried the trilogy.
I thought it went really well.
And I like the fact that Moffa did it out of necessity.
So he came back and he did this season, which we'll talk about, I'm
sure, and he wasn't expecting to do it.
And so he was kind of scrabbling around a little bit for ideas.
He was open to ideas, and the fact that I think it was Peter
Harness, who came up with the general idea of the monks, and
Moffat looked at that and went, that's good.
We can do something with this and sort of worked backwards to make
a loose story about them.
And then looked at something like oxygen where the doctor was
blinded and then pushed that forward into the trilogy.
I think he was just making things out of what he had and it works
really well.
It's just him being creative on the hop.
One of our listeners, Luke Hobbs, says, what are your thoughts on
how the 3 parts of the Monk trilogy fit together with each other
and how they fit into this season, which we are discussing right
now?
And as you said, someone made very good points back in those
episodes.
Yeah, I mean, it's a problem that the show has or a challenge that
the show faces when it comes back, where in the 70s, it's kind of
an anthology show, and every 4 weeks they forget what's happened
to them, and then they go off on another adventure, which, and
they never mention the previous adventure ever again.
And, you know, the 80s addresses that in some ways and the 60s
isn't actually much like that.
It also is sort of a continuous story.
And so Russell does it by having sort of relationships between the
characters that develop during the course of the thing and also by
having an arc word.
And Moffatt does a similar thing.
You know, the characters, our main characters find out more about
each other in each more fit season.
And here, all of that's been paired back, all of the characters
that he invented for his era of the show are kind of gone.
He's got Nardol and Bill and Missy, and he just tells a story
about them.
And that story gets given a shape by having these events that
happen and then have consequences in subsequent episodes.
And even, like, even in the two-part finale, we're referring back
to things that happen to Bill in the Monk trilogy, like in in lie
of the land.
Like, I just think all of that's really good.
Like an arc doesn't have to be the hybrid.
It doesn't have to be a big...
It doesn't have to be a big high concept thing.
It can just be, we remember what happened last week, things move
into each other.
Things have consequences, things are woven throughout the season.
What a normal TV show does.
I think it worked really well this year.
I think it was born out of necessity as well.
Again, from what we were talking about before, where he wasn't
expecting to do this season.
And so it just shows you Moth at his unvarnished best.
He doesn't have a big concept for the season.
What he has is a location.
What he has is a series of ideas for what all happened going
forward and it just works beautifully as a set of episodes rather
than as one huge story that you buy into.
No, I agree with that.
I think that's why it's probably my favourite season of the modern
era is because of the fact that he has just showing how brilliant
he is as a writer at pulling all these disparate threads together
because he doesn't have an overarching high concept plot.
It's just, I've created all these characters.
I have to track them into situations, I have to get them from A to
B to C.
And it's quite intricately kind of tied all together.
There's bits that pop up throughout the season to get tied
together in the middle and then at the end, in a way which it's
really quite satisfying and on an emotional level, not a not on
that sort of big plot level, which I really like.
And as ever, it comes down to episode quality.
You know, you can have the biggest high concept in the world, but
if you don't have that great stories to tell with it, it work
satisfying, we just so happened that this season is a series of
really good episodes.
Siheart, um, ask this question, is more for going out on a high
which sort of feeds into what you guys are saying.
Yeah, I mean, there's 2 stories that he does, I think, where he
sets himself a proper challenge, and one is the pilot, where he
kind of challenges himself to tell a story with no funny business
that takes place over a period of time, like over the course of a
year, and that's magnificent.
You know, he rises to that.
And then the end where he sets himself the task of making the
Mondassian cybermen work on modern television, which is a pretty
wild challenge, if you think about it.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely mad.
And he does extremists, which I think is a very solid kind of just
a, the kind of Moffat story you don't see often enough where it's
just him writing a story in the middle of the season for a
change.
It's the listen of this season.
Yeah, or the beast below, you know.
So all of those are great.
And I think, I don't know.
I was a bit weary of the Moffat era by the end.
And I checked back on a Facebook post that I made after twice upon
a time where I kind of said, thank God Chipnall's coming.
Yes, thank God Jim was going.
But in retrospect, I think he does go out on a high, and there are
plenty of people who I think were losing interest in maybe 8 and
certainly a 9 that are back on board for 10, BJ Hobbs, who we had
on our smile episode, said that that was her experience.
So I think he is going out on a high.
I don't think he has lulled.
You know, I think he does make decisions that people don't enjoy
very much and sometimes he gets a little bit kind of caught up in
himself a bit, but he's a pretty amazing writer and for an
unexpected series that he's just doing to make sure the show stays
alive while the next regime kind of gets its ducks in a row.
This is a pretty good season.
And I think, too, the fact that he knows that he's not going on.
He doesn't have to set anything up or have back planning in the
back of your head for what's moving forward, which sometimes takes
your focus on what's currently happening in a season.
So I think that also plays a factor in just the focus on these set
of stories and the structure within this season, right?
It's one of those historically galling things that the 1st chibnal
season.
Jody's 1st season is given all the focus as a hard reboot for the
show.
Whereas this series is a soft reboot for the show, and to my mind
much more successful than that one is, and yet it doesn't get the
focus and the acclaim.
Yeah, it's a fantastic self-free bit of the show.
Like he thought he was finishing.
He wrapped all those plot threads up.
Really, at the end of series 9.
Like he'd sort of got rid of all these characters, tied up all
this ongoing plotarch stuff over the previous couple of years.
Most of that was in the time of the doctor.
Most of the time, the doctor.
And so he ties up all of this sort of Clara stuff and puts that to
bed and he thinks he's not doing anymore.
And then he gets this surprise season and has to create something
which is wholly formed within itself.
And so you kind of get this much more satisfying payoff, I think
at the end of the season because he's got he's got a limited
canvas that he's working with and he doesn't have all of the sort
of messy plot threads to tie up.
He's just telling a whole story within the season.
I think that that really works very well.
I just can sum it up by saying, I think it's refreshing.
I think it's palate cleansing and that's what I really like about
it.
Are you still talking about kissing the monks?
Do you think that that means that the big problem with the Moffat
era is that the there's not a quick enough turnover of regular
cast?
Because this is so good because you get to do a thing like what
Russell does, you know, in series, maybe two, 3, and 4, and his
newest series as well, his most recent series, where he gets to
centre a group of episodes around the experience of an individual
who is new to us.
I think there's a prevailing school of thought that Clara stayed
too long, and I would agree with that.
I think one of the reasons I find series 9, the least satisfying
of Mothat seasons, is that there's really nothing new, like they
said in the publicity for it.
Same old, same old, doctor and Clara and the Tartars.
I guess this is something that we'll talk about in the full
retrospective of the entire Moffat era.
And it's a certainly very interesting question that we that will
come back to, is the length of time that both doctors spent with
Amy and Rory and then with Clara, you know, rather than having a
new refreshing teen every year and and we'll certainly we'll get
onto that and discuss that.
Because, I mean, the pilot smile and thin eyes, I think smile is
the weakest of those three.
All bloody good.
Yeah, they get to do things that we haven't done for ages.
Smile's not great.
The worst episode of the season.
I actually really enjoy smile.
No, no, no, no.
Like, we all have different opinions on this, obviously.
It would be boring if we didn't, but I like smile because it's so
atypical of Doctor Who. and it's just doing something different.
See, I, I, coming back to this, like smile is probably one of my
favourite episodes of the season.
Yeah, I really like what it does at the beginning, which is just
having the 2 of them wandering around exploring a place.
Like, um, Arc in space episode one.
Yes, but I think it just collapses in upon itself the point.
They go through that door downstairs.
It just falls to pieces.
I mean, I like to tour through the paper now.
And I just don't enjoy it from that point on.
But all the stuff outside, to begin with, that's tremendous.
Can I just say if we're talking about smile, perhaps being the
least successful episode of the season, that's a pretty good
season.
Oh, no, I still like it.
Yeah, I don't think there's actually an episode in this season
that I think is poor.
No.
I'm trying to think what my least favourite is.
It might be knock knock.
But again, you're going to ask me later.
We're going to go through all these episodes, right?
Since we're talking about sort of the 1st three.
David Kitchen.
How does Moffatt, having a companion who isn't special, like Amy
and Clara affect the season?
Does Capaldi work best with this more, with a more traditional
companion, having traditional adventures, or does he lose
something?
It's funny how he's name checked in the episode when Bill comes in
and says, this is some kind of David Ketchum?
David says season 10 is his favourite Moffat series.
Yeah, yeah.
I think like Russell doesn't do special companions, does he?
until this most recent season where the reveal is actually she's
not special.
We think she's a Moffatt companion until we discover that she's
just a normal person with Amelia Gibbs's character.
He said special in inverter comments, like design, high concept
like...
Yeah, I think so.
A complex space-time event, as Brendan, I think.
Did Brendan put it that way in an earlier episode?
The show puts it in that way.
Well, yes, yeah.
Part of the deal with Clara is it's also kind of the discovery
that she's not special.
Like, she's not inherently special.
She becomes special because she makes that act of self sacrifice
but it hasn't happened yet.
And so she's being regarded as a mystery in a way that we thought
kind of hampered the character, but the discovery is that we were
wrong to regard her in that way all along.
And she is just an ordinary person.
Like with Amy, it's Moffatt very definitely making the doctor, a
kind of fairy tale figure, like your imaginary friend.
And so she's not high concept as such, is she, she just met the
doctor that one time.
Oh, special.
Yeah.
She has high concept things happen to her.
Yeah.
What effect do you think having the character of Bill has on the
12 doctor?
for this season?
I think having a duckling to take under his wing really sort of
shaves any remaining rough edges off the character and makes him
he's quite warm and cuddly this season, even though he's played by
Peter Capaldi, and so he's got that slight edge in the
performance.
And I think Todd made the allusion to the 3 stages of Pertwee
previously, and I ideally see it.
He's even got Pertuis season 11 Buffon. which gets bigger and
bigger and bigger.
Absolutely.
It looks like a maine by the time we had twice upon a time.
But it's also a different energy too.
There's a, you know, um, Jenna Coleman has an intensity, whereas I
think Paul Mackey has a joyfulness about her and just something
different for him to bounce off and that makes it surprising a lot
of the time you think, oh, that's where we're going with this or
we're taking the doctor in this directional.
That's his reaction.
And it's a bit off putting at first.
Like, well, what was that?
The friend of the foe of the whatever it was?
Friend from the future, which was terrible.
But we won't go there.
But then when you're watching these scenes and because you've had
2 whole years of Clara with the doctor to to have that happening.
At 1st it's a bit off putting.
And then it sort of just kicks in and it makes you wanting more
than just this season with there's something about their
performance styles that meshes.
And so I think the best scene that Capaldi ever has as the doctor
is the climax of extremists in the Oval Office, where it's just
him and Bill talking about what's been happening and they're both
keeping it very quiet and very solemn.
I think that's a tour de force performance by Capaldi, and he
delivers a couple of those opposite Pearl Mackey.
I think their energy is really good.
Well, I think that, yes, like playing on that idea.
The actors, I think, find a rhythm quite quickly, and they kind of
it feels like they're riffing off each other in a way, like, like
the energy kind of feeds back and forth in a way that's really
quite satisfying.
They evidently enjoyed working together a lot.
And it's such a pity that they didn't get longer together.
I kind of like the fact that it's just this one beautiful season
exists by itself.
Oh, no, I agree with you there, but I always want more.
You know, it's one of those things.
It's the C.S. Lewis thing that I've quoted before.
There's 2 times you can stop doing something before everyone's
sick of it and afterwards.
And so, yes, you know, we can always go back and enjoy Pearl's
year on Doctor Who and be grateful that we had her.
And I guess there's that.
All right, it's time for a snog, marry, avoid.
Here we go.
Missy, the master, Mr. Razor.
I mean, if you're married, either miss you or the master, you'd be
marrying both of them, surely.
And Mr. Razor.
Well, I think Bill is actually quite happy with Mr. Razor for 10
years.
Oh, do you think they went there?
No, but I think they, but there's a kind of sort of married couple
thing happening.
And he makes tea.
It's terrible, but he does at least make it for you.
So I think that's a definite marry.
No, Missy, wouldn't you?
Well, no, I'd be too scared.
Right.
Absolutely terrified.
You wouldn't want to marry Missy.
Then you just be labelled comic relief for expedition.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I'm definitely marrying Mr. Razor.
I am definitely snogging John Sim.
You've got to believe it, with or without.
I don't mind.
And Missy, that scary lady who pressed me up against a wall one
time.
I'm not I'm avoiding her.
See, yeah, so I would probably say I would avoid Mr. Razor because
he's turning me into a cyberman. that's true.
Make you taller. throw away the bits.
What do you think of Michelle's performance this year?
Oh, divine.
Yes, glorious.
Yeah, yeah, she's incredible.
Isn't it amazing?
We're not a bunch of gays, are we?
It's so great. isn't it?
Like those 2 years that she's a kind of semi-regular in Capaldi's
era, like the 1st year and the final year.
And he just can't leave her alone.
She is so superb that even though he kind of visibly kills her off
you know, in the series 8 finale.
She's back 2 episodes later because he has to write for her and
she's magnificent in that 2 parter and particularly that 1st
episode when the doctor's absent and she's kind of running the
show.
I think, you know, she is, I think, the best version of the master
even though I think Delgado comes in a fairly respectable second.
She is so funny and so clever and so unexpected and so brutally
dark.
I think she just gets it absolutely right.
It's perhaps the best thing.
I mean, Moffatt casts 2 incredible doctors, but after that, it's
casting Missy that's his real triumph, I think.
The master has always been a case of diminishing returns for me.
I never thought anyone could match up to Delgado in my
appreciation and Michelle Gomez comes in and is written so well
and just provides a slightly different spin on the master that I
think is equally good as Delgado and that's high praise.
I love all of her line readings.
It's a bit obvious that she's off filming Sabrina because in some
episodes.
It's sort of like we've got her in this set, we've got her in this
set.
We have to film all these things and slaughter in.
So I think the fact that they managed to do that and work around
that and make that part of the story successfully is just from it
again to Stephen and his vision for where that character was
going.
I did say in last week's episode, I think, or was it the week
before, that I kind of would have loved one other adventure with
her out of the Tartars with the Tartars crew actually in just a
proper adventure and actually ending up escaping.
Do you know what I mean?
So throwing you off the scent that she could turn either way
thinking, 0 my goodness.
But as I mentioned in that episode, then we would have not had all
the wonderful comic relief exposition stuff at the beginning of
the world and often time episode.
If there was any master who should have had a companion, I think
it should have been her.
I can just imagine her riffing off a junior slightly less evil
version of herself and it would have been really fun.
Like Clara.
Yeah, she showed up.
Indeticians are pretty.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
In everything I just said, yes.
I wanted to go through and just get your final thoughts on some of
the episodes for this season.
So we'll start with, well, the return of Dr. Mysterio, which
really started the block off.
I think it's massively underrated.
It's really, really funny and great and it has quite a touching
ending.
I really enjoyed it.
I think it's overrated and still kind of fun.
I think it's fun but forgettable.
Like, you know, in the moment I enjoy it for all the reasons
you've mentioned, Nathan, but then except for Mr. Huffle, which I
think is just the worst thing ever.
And, um, enjoy about Nathan's husband.
Yeah, that's not the worst thing ever.
But it's yeah, it's not great.
But then I forget about it I mean, not every Doctor Who episode
has to be a life-changing event.
Do you know what I mean?
It can just be a music.
Yeah, that's right.
It can't just be a music for now.
But being a Christmas special, I think that we hold them to such
high standards, right?
But it's so much fun.
It's so much fun And I think you make the point in the episode
about it being an up to the minute cultural reference.
I can forgive Mysteria a lot because it's just fun.
And using like Matt Lucas in the way you do is this strange comic
relief character. just sort of punctures a lot of the, you know
pomposity that we keep going on about characters puncturing the
pomposity of Capoli's doctor.
There's something about that sort of straight man funny man kind
of... don't think Matt Lucas is straight.
But what I do think in that episode is that you do get different
sides of the Capoldi doctor, like when he's eating that sushi and
stuff like that. is so funny.
There's a change.
There's another turning point, you know, for the 3rd iteration of
the character.
He lets Kapaldi do comedy business.
Yeah, which is great.
Well, that thing, the opening scene with him and the kid is pretty
great.
He also gets one of my favourite lines in the show's history, which
is Mrs. Lombard.
There are some situations that are too stupid to be allowed to
continue, which I think is just awesome.
Absolutely I always think it's a pity that harm you should.
Don't turn up again because I just kind of think having them in
those 2 Christmas specials back to back.
You kind of think that they're going somewhere, but obviously, they
never appear again.
Finish box set.
That was my next...
That sounds like a Moffat companion, doesn't it?
Harmony Shoal.
Yeah, there's just 2 random nouns.
All right, the pilot.
So fun.
So great. properly good.
I think actually probably good in a way that I didn't expect it
all.
It's not structured like a Doctor Who story.
It structured like a biopic.
It's interesting, you know, formally interesting, as we said.
Just great.
Brilliant beginning.
One of the strongest season openers in the modern era, I think
because it, again, is playing against the type.
And I think one of us, maybe it was me, made the point in that
episode that they do the whole sort of beginning of season arc
that Russell would do with the present day future past all in the
one episode.
So you get that business out of the way in an episode, and then
you redo it again anyway. over the next few, but it encapsulates
so much and you get to know that new character really quite well.
Yeah, all that.
And to visit Simon and Brian's doorstep.
Yeah, exactly.
What, the vault?
You said that.
Not there.
Good grief.
Smile.
I'll start by saying, I think all the stuff outside is brilliant
wonderful location work.
I just enjoy that so much in their exploration, the city.
Once they go into the door downstairs.
I think it begins to fall apart and I really don't enjoy the last
15 or 20 minutes.
For me, it's the weakest episode of the season, which I give it a
seven, but that's not bad.
What did you think of the child actor given a lot of prominence?
I thought he was terrible, but you know, that's my default
setting.
I both, you know, I think it's one of my favourite episodes of
season and totally agree with you on the structure.
Like the, all of the business between Pearl and Peter is great.
Like all of that, them getting to know each other.
How, you know, I think you made this point in the episode about
she realises what his role is, like what he does, how he spends
his life and then she kind of goes, oh, I'm going to go and help
him, even though he's running into danger.
Like all of all of that is fantastic.
But yes, as soon as you get to a, it's not a paper mill.
Uskmith power station.
It's Ed Thomas's back room.
Yes, it's actually it is actually just his house, isn't it?
Look, I don't think you can undersell the value of a great
location.
That episode has one of the greatest locations in Doctor Who.
Yeah, visually it's stunning, isn't it?
And I do think that moment, like maybe the best moment in it is
the moment where Bill is left at the TARDIS door and the doctor
goes off in there to blow up the building.
And I just think that's absolutely brilliant just because it's a
big character moment for her learning who he is, but it's a
beautiful shot.
Yeah, it's like cinematographic.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the him sort of running across the field.
Yeah, yeah, like Teresa May.
All right, thin ice.
Maybe the best episode of the season.
It looks incredibly good, and it's just beautifully written by
Sarah Dollard.
And one of the reasons I think that, um, one of the problems with
smile is that what it does introducing the 2 characters to one
another is done a lot better here.
And I think that confrontation between Pearl and Peter about how
many people have you killed is one of the high points of the
season.
It's beautiful, it's funny.
It's just incredibly well done, and it should be more highly
regarded than it is.
And they've gotten so good at putting their money on the screen.
This entire season looks absolutely amazing and was made for less
money than the season following, which I don't think looks as
good.
Also, thin ice, 2nd best example of a companion encountering an
elephant in Doctor Who history.
I think it's slightly less good than the other time.
And we'll let you discover that, listeners, if you don't know what
that is if you go back and watch the classic series.
We had a great discussion on the episode and I walked away from
that, loving it even more, and I do think it is along with the
pilot and Empress of Mars, like those 3 other than the finale of
the 3 that I really gravitate towards this season.
So yeah, no, it's great.
Any thoughts, James?
Look, I would agree with you on that.
I think coming back to the, them getting to know each other point
each time, it's a different slant on, on that sort of, there's
like the unpeeling layers of, of their friendship and discovering
something new about each other each week.
And Capaldi gets to punch a fascist in the page.
It's brilliant.
Knock knock.
Oh, it's really fun.
Knock knock.
I really like the group of characters that are whipped up around
Bill, including the one of those companions we never had in little
Harry. speaking of which, Peter?
Snog Marrier Void.
Harry Paul Pavel.
Okay.
I think I would give Harry a little snog, just because if nothing
else, because he's Harry Sullivan's grandson.
Yeah, he's cute.
He's sweet.
The other 2 are completely interchangeable in my memory.
Pavel likes to play his music quite loud, so I think I'd avoid
him.
And the other one, he's very tall and Scottish. very tall.
Yeah, I don't want to marry that.
Yeah, I'll take the 5th on that.
Back to knock knock.
I really enjoy knock knock a lot.
And I love that group of characters.
I love the whole setting.
I think David Suchet is wonderfully menacing and as you discussed
that old school of acting coming into the show.
Lovely classic series performance.
That's right Like with the ending, everybody has to live.
I think that's an unfortunate thing in terms of the ubiquitousness
of media and social media these days is that if all of them died
that would then have links to so many people and so many
investigations as opposed to what happens back in the 1960s and
70s where if 2 campers get killed, it can be explained away.
And so I think, as you discussed, you know, if all these people
died, Bill would not travel with the doctor, they had to have a
get out of jail free card.
So I'm getting for what you're saying, that knock knock would have
been better with Ogri.
Anything's better with...
But what I'm saying is that the ending of it was a necessity and
that ending, you know, you kind of think, oh, can you kill off a
few, can you not?
You know, at the end, you're just going to think, oh, that's the
way it has to be.
I also found the kind of some pretty heroic latex acting from the
mother and just some fairly ridiculous scenes.
It's one of those moments where I just imagine my mother walking
in and looking at the screen and going, what the hell are you
watching?
Would you then have turned around her and said, I'm so sorry that
I couldn't have saved you all this?
There are wood lice in the walls.
I mean, it's that's a stupid scene, and like, I just think it's a
bit overwrought and embarrassing, really.
So it's the resolution that I think is dumb.
Everything else, I think is really great.
Thank you.
I was trying to say.
I hated knock knock when I 1st saw a series here.
I thought was the weakest thing.
I'd ever watched. rewatching it.
I thought it was gorgeous.
It was just this sort of small story about this sad little boy who
lost his mother basically.
And I think maybe, yeah, maybe I had the Todd experience.
It was a revelation when I watched it back this time.
I had only ever watched it once, I think.
Maybe I just was having an off week.
Lots more Greek 40 business as well.
He's really funny in that episode.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
More eating, more inappropriate eating, which is pretty great.
The music references as well and yeah, he just does that offbeat
comedy sort of things so well.
I mean, if that's one thing from this season.
It's all those little quirky moments with him that I just enjoy so
much.
I bet if we dive into your phone, we'll find a bit of little mix
in there.
No, you won't.
I'm stuck Well, in the past, a bit more the Reynolds girls.
Jesus.
Stop it.
All right.
On that note, let's get some oxygen, the next episode.
Fantastic.
Oxygen.
Really good.
I know that we were slightly mixed on it in our episode.
There was a few mixed opinions there, but I think it's an exercise
in atmosphere, which is really great.
I agree with you. an exercise in atmosphere.
But even this time through like the 1st time through, I didn't
love it to death.
Like, I just, Jamie's done some brilliant episodes, which I
absolutely adore, and this almost gets there, but for some reason
it just doesn't have that element that makes it, like, zing right
at the top down.
I don't know why that is.
I don't know.
It's got a couple of wonderful set piece moments, like the walking
on the hull from Bill's point of view, and also the fact that it
makes the doctor blind.
I think if that had just been contained to this episode, it would
have been shrug and forget it.
But the fact that it has repercussions through the following 2
episodes makes it a really important event in the doctor's
fictional life and I like it.
No, I think that's really good.
I mean, I easily give it an 8 out of 10.
I'm just not saying, for me, it's hitting that 9 mark, which, for
me, it's like top 10.
Oxygen does something I really love in Doctor Who, and it's the
critique of capitalism, of society, of human failing, like human
greed.
And I love the fact that it hits you in the face with it.
It's not allegory in a lot of ways.
Doctor Who usually does this sort of stuff as allegory.
It's just like capitalism destroys our humanity.
For that reason, I think it's probably, in my opinion, one of the
stronger episodes because of its point of view.
I think that thin ice is saying the same thing because you're
essentially, you know, feeding children to a giant sea monster
that, you know, poos out fuel and then selling it on the market.
So it's doing a sort of capitalism, something that also isn't an
algory, although it kind of is.
But I think it does it better.
My problem, I was the source of the mixed opinions on oxygen.
I don't think that it satisfactorily does what it sets out to do.
It's supposed to be, let's see how scary space is, but as I said
on the episode, it doesn't actually manage to achieve a version of
space that's any different from things like Impossible Planet or
what we've been doing for ages and ages.
And so, I think that it doesn't quite work for that reason, and
it's a little bit kind of lacking in character and incident, I
think.
It does atmosphere, but the characters are pretty rudimentary and
it is just, you know, we walk away from zombies and then some
other zombies come and we walk away from them, you know.
But it is good to see the dynamic between Bill and Nadol and the
doctor sort of forming properly here so we can then carry that
through the next trilogy of episodes through to the end of the
season.
It carries definitely into extremists where I think the scenes
between Bill and Nadol are really good and set them set them up as
one of the great companion double acts of all time.
I really love their dynamic.
I think that I like Bill Leonardo better together than Bill and
the doctor and not all of the doctor.
Yeah, it's fun, isn't it?
Because he's kind of dismissive of her and a little bit kind of
hostile to her initially.
And then they do their 1st big adventure together.
And I think that is one of the great features of oxygen is that it
makes that happen properly for the 1st time.
So that scene extremists when they're walking down the corridor
together and she's like, you're kind of a badass, aren't you?
awesome.
Well, let's talk about extremists then.
I think it's the strongest of the trilogy, like a certainly would
be giving it business, 8.5 .
None of that trilogy quite gets there for me in terms of 910 or
whatever.
But I really like the atmosphere down where the veritas is and all
of that in the episode.
And the fact that the doctor is blind in that ongoing plot, I
really think it's a really strong episode.
I think it's the 2nd best story of the season.
I love the atmosphere.
I thought who knew that Doctor Who meeting Dan Brown would be so
successful.
It's also, I think, the start of the best three-part story since
Delta and the Bannerman, maybe.
No, I take that.
I take that back.
I think it's a really, really strong episode.
I think it's heavy on atmosphere and I really love the fact that
even though it's nothing very new from Moffat, I think it's a real
encapsulation of everything that he does well.
I just, I can't quite put my finger up, I really like that
episode.
And also the fact that Missy is so heavily involved in that
episode too.
I think that is also another real strength for it, which is why I
think, yeah, sort of lifts at this point in the season.
I really enjoy the Monk trilogy.
I would probably say the next episode is stronger for me.
But I do love all the business in extremists and the concepts.
I think the thing I love about this trilogy of stories is the
concepts that are interwoven through it, and they're all kind of
related to each other, but they're all roofing on it in a
different way.
I would agree with James.
I think that the pyramid at the end of the world edges this one
out for me, although I think that the atmosphere is absolutely
there.
The introduction of the monks works really well, the gag with the
pope turning up and ruining your date is absolutely brilliant.
Only before he gets sent off to that forced labour camp.
I think it is really fun.
I would give an extra whole point out of 10. for that shot where
we go down under the table in the CERN cafeteria to see all of
that.
Fenrich shot.
It's so good.
Who'd have thought that cribbing from Nick Mallet would make an
episode better.
See, Pyramid at the end of the world for me is just slightly below
this at an 8 and I think it's a really strong episode.
I think Erica's great.
Yeah, needs an extra point just for Erica.
Yeah, yeah.
And that whole parallel stuff happening and what you think is
going to be the end of the world isn't the end of the world.
It's, you know, the doctor's blindness and Bill wanting to save
him.
And certainly an episode I came back to thinking, oh, is this
going to be any good?
And I thought it was good.
I thought it was solid, right?
But I just, you know, the doctor is president and is that in this
at much?
Not really, but yes, that's why they come and get him.
I guess the thing is, we're in made up Stan again and I don't
think I liked having made up a stand the 1st time around.
That was a bit of a, you know, and they've come back to it, and
that's fine.
And it seems to have shifted somewhat around the planet since the
last time we saw it.
Well, of course it has. made up.
It's just a, it's actually, it's the island equivalent of the
Daleks hollowing the core out of the earth and travelling around
the galaxy.
Look, Pyramids and Doctor Who, you can't go wrong, I think.
This again, like so many episodes this season is a bit of a mood
piece.
It's structured a little bit weirdly for a dog 2 episode.
It doesn't quite build in the way that a doctor 2 episode usually
does, but I really like it.
I think if the 3rd episode of the trilogy had kept up the quality
of the 1st two.
We'd be talking about a classic set of stories.
I think that what it does is it's incredibly well plotted and that
a lot of things happen.
We're coming towards the back end of the season where there's a
couple of mood pieces, which don't really have a great deal going
on, and I think maybe oxygen was that as well.
Whereas this is quite interestingly plotted, I think.
And I think the ending of it, and sadly, I can no longer remember
how I felt about it, but it looks like the doctor has won.
He's definitely won and the monks are disappointed and the clock
goes back. can you tell from their faces?
Yeah, yeah, no, they're all looking at their phones and they're
coming across and stuff.
It's a whole thing.
And then Bill goes to the monks to get the doctor's site back so
he can be saved.
And it's such a surprise.
It's such a surprising ending and it's kind of like, oh, so we're
going to have the monks for another week now.
And I wish I could remember how I felt about that at the time
because I reckon it's a pretty great ending.
And in common with so many episodes of this season, some great
imagery.
So that scene where the fighter jet is coming in and then the
pilots are just replaced by me.
So good.
Yeah, it's so good.
It's so unsettling.
Yeah, yeah.
Did we know coming into this that there was going to be a trilogy
of stories around the monks?
I don't think so.
Had it been publicised that way?
I think it was kind of known on, you know, outpost galafrey.
We do actually talk about it at the time in those 3 episodes for
FTA.
We can't quite remember.
So I think probably for most people at home, they're going to be
surprised by that ending.
I just can't remember if I was.
Yeah.
So the lie of the land wraps up this trilogy.
It is the least satisfying of the episodes for me, but it still
gets a 7.5 .
I still think there's a lot in there that I really do like, but
the unforgivable thing that I struggle to get over is the fake out
regeneration, which is done for effect and we're going to, I just
kind of went, oh, problematic scene on so many levels.
Yeah, I mean, doing things for effect is okay because it's TV.
But what for me ruins that scene is how cavalier everyone is once
the reveal happens.
And in our episode, I contrasted it with Cursor Fenrik, where the
doctor destroys Ace's faith in him in order to do a space thing
and then is visibly distressed at what he's had to do to her.
Whereas here we all laugh.
You know, she's surrounded by...
It's really neat.
So it's the wrong emotions.
Yeah.
I think the other thing too is it's just absolutely full of
voiceovers and we're constantly just being told what's happening
rather than shown.
I also don't over-promise and undersell.
The idea of this kind of parallel future, if you want, where the
monks are in charge, and you know, the invasion's happened, and
it's this Orwellian version of Earth.
It's such a great setup.
How can you not do anything with it in the episode?
Yeah, in a way, and this would never happen the modern era, but in
a way, maybe this episode would have been a great four parter in
the classic era, where you really dig into this dystopian future
and investigate it.
Maybe the monk should have taken over at the end of extremists.
So I have been on record saying the, this is not a good episode
what we really needed was twice as much of it.
But I get what you mean.
Like, that it's actually a shame in the classic series that we
never had anything quite like that.
Perhaps the closest that we come to are those parallel universe
scenes in Inferno.
The best story of seasons in seven.
As you know, Nathan.
Yes, the least successful story of season seven.
The thing that makes me really uncomfortable coming back to the
scene, the revelations scene.
I mean, it doesn't work in a lot of ways.
Why is he regenerating?
She doesn't know about regeneration.
So what's the point of that apart from to put in the trailer?
is that it's a group of men laughing at a queer woman.
That's not deliberate.
It's not.
And you know, if it was a good scene, you wouldn't care about
those optics, but it's also a bad scene, which makes it even
worse.
Yeah, obviously it's not deliberate, but the optics of it.
Because it's bad, just sort of glare in your face. and it's just
it's probably the thing that takes me out of enjoyment of the
episode.
I do, however, like Capaldi's coat very much.
It looks very good sizzling up with regeneration energy.
All right, the Empress of Mars, Nathan, Snog, marry, avoid.
Catch love, God's Acre, Friday.
You'd have to shag someone called Catch Love, sure.
Catch Love is just beautiful.
Like he's so pretty.
Holy crap.
So I think I'll marry him so that I can look at him all the time
as well as whatever else that entails.
God's acre.
God's acre is he's a bit rough, isn't he?
He's a little bit kind of rougher.
I would probably...
Well, see, now I'm starting to rethink because again, if I wanted
to marry Mr. Razor because he'll bring me tea, Friday does that, he
does bring tea for the officers, he does seem to be very obedient
uh, which...
Yeah, except when he's not.
So maybe I'm avoiding him, I'm having a quick fling with God's
Acre and I'm marrying Catchlove, even though apparently he would
treat me very badly.
Yeah, that's a collection of words I never thought I'd do.
Well, I'd agree with you.
I don't want to see Friday out of his suit.
No.
That's right.
Upsetting wedding night.
Interesting how they never really show that again after Cold War.
No.
For good reason.
Look, I really enjoy that episode.
I love the fact that there's so much time for Bill and the doctor
not to say, like, I didn't want Nardo to be in it, but obviously
now that I miss you come in at the end, but I just like the fact
there's a big chunk there that's just them after 4 weeks of the
team, and it's nice to have that before we head off to the finale
and I, and I really think it's a very underrated episode.
It's really enjoyable.
Mark Gator brings a thing to the series that nobody else does
which is this kind of reverence for the way that classic Doctor
Who told stories.
And even though I don't think any of his episodes quite scale the
heights.
All of them are perfectly acceptable and a lot of fun.
I think this is in his wheelhouse and it's the better because of
that.
Yeah, it's Ice Warriors in cave sets.
I mean it's weird. absolutely the thing we did in the 70s.
Yeah.
And Victoriana.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's perfect I think it's really fun.
Just properly fun.
Is Cosapeladon the last time we had Ice Warriors in cave sets and
a mention of Queen Victoria?
Maybe.
Your memory's better than mine.
The eaters of light.
Not the mood piece.
Yeah, I think it's really beautiful, actually.
Like, it's just sort of strange and weird and interesting, and
it's a little bit kind of low key and a little bit sombre.
It's like an era coming to a close and given that she's done that
before, you know, Ronan Monroe kind of does a good job of that.
It's by a proper writer.
It does some stuff with children's literature, which is what
survival did as well.
I think it's really good.
Like, I think it's overlooked.
Not many people even think about it.
Um, but I do think it's nice.
I'm glad that Doctor Who did it.
And I'm also glad to see Ronan Monroe come back after like 27
years come back to the program now that she is a successful and
well-known playwright, someone kind of out of our league, who is
sort of slumming it with us for a week.
Yeah.
I always say the worst crime Doctor Who can commit as being
boring.
And I do think the eaters of light is a little bit dull in
places.
But having said that, I think there's so much to it, and it is
about something that I can't bring myself to dislike it.
I was going to ask, what you prefer, it is right or survival.
Survival.
It's hard because the nostalgia factor in what it meant to our
childhoods.
I think in context, survival is more of a departure.
Like it's more different from anything that's ever happened on the
show before, and it's amazing to have the show go out, doing
something that it's never done before, and doing something that it
should perhaps always have been doing, and when the show comes
back, that's kind of what it does.
Yeah, it's kind of the template in a lot of ways.
It's so very Doctor Who, the fact that Doctor Who's last classic
story of the 20th century paves the way for what comes.
It's not a closure for the series.
It's also looking to the future of what it was. in the direction
that it would go.
Well, on this episode.
I had the Todd experience, my own experience because the 1st time
watching this season, this was the episode I did not like at all
well, not like at all.
I just found it really disappointing and I was putting it in
negative territory like the worst of the previous season and
whatever that other fake bush one was in season eight.
Forest of the Mountain.
Thank you the 1st of the night.
Well, you know, you know, Schum Bush, how it just disappears?
That would be a great Kate Bush drag queen name.
It might well be.
I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I think there's so many lovely moments for Bill Fernando, for the
doctor.
I think it's actually a lovely moment before the finale and, and
um, yeah, what I once gave 6 out of 10 to A's and Egybate.
Like, again, quite a moment, but a good one.
I also had the Todd experience because at the time I was quite
disappointed in this story because I love survival.
I was sort of eight, 9 when the show ended in the 80s and
Sylvester was my daughter because because I was just at that age
where it kind of grabs you.
I mean, I've been watching it since I was 3 or 4 on my father's
knee.
My 1st Doctor Who story with 5 doctors.
And because I expected so much of it, I was really quite
underwhelmed, but rewatching it, I was pleasantly surprised that
there's a lot of really quite touching moments between both the
regulars and the characters unique to the episode, which is really
quite beautiful.
I wish they'd been a little bit more to it, but having said that, I
think what's there is enough.
Yeah, I think I agree with you, James.
Like, I had high expectations.
The 1st time I watched it based on what she delivered with
survival and it didn't meet those expectations.
Like I thought that's not delivering what I wanted.
And so I was quite harsh on it.
And then when you come back to things, you go, okay, that's where
they're going.
And I'm really pleased.
Should have just brought the cheetah people back.
I makeup.
Like, there's a thing about the old series and the new series and
they're never, ever going to be comparable.
When we watch the Eaters of Lies, we had been living with the
ideas and images and performances and all of that from survival
for 27 years.
They were kind of part of us.
Yeah, yeah.
And the Eders of Light hasn't had time, even now, to take that
position.
And so, in a way, eaters of light and survival are not directly
comparable.
And I don't think it's meaningful to say that survival is better
than eaters of life.
They're so different.
Yeah, exactly.
Fair enough.
Well, enough in time, and the doctor falls.
I'm just gonna throw it out. extraordinary.
Like absolutely amazing.
Top 5 of the new series.
Yeah, totally agree. out of this world.
And not at all, I think what we expected.
So we've had a missy plus the cybermen finale before.
And as I said, this is Moffat saying, can we make the 10th planet
Cybermen work on television in 2017?
And like I do remember a time when we laughed at those cybermen.
The 10th planet cybermen, they're clearly a dead end when the show
brings back the cybermen later that year, they're completely
redesigned so that they're not like that anymore.
And we allowed real life to influence the imagery.
So they somehow got labelled as this cut price cheap version of
the side without looking at all the things that made them really
interesting.
Yeah.
And to me, that's why these episodes are so strong.
It's taking something that was derided by the general public and
by fandom for a long time and taking all the elements that we
thought were pants, or at least stockings over the face.
Um, and making those, the, the things that are so horrifying and
scary, which they always were intense by that, um, about this
version of the side and the, the slow erosion of someone's
humanity and the, the turning off people's emotion, happening to
me right now.
You'll still be in pain, you just won't care.
Like, oh, like this, this is harrowing this story, but it's just
beautiful.
Okay, how can you have a two-part story that is so different
atmospherically and yet so successful.
Both of the episodes work so beautifully well together, even while
doing them off that thing of having slightly different 2nd part.
I actually think the Doctor Falls might be slightly better than
world enough in time, and that is really saying something.
I mean, it just introduces a new location, doesn't it?
Like, that's basically what happens.
We shift the focus to a new location, which is alluded to in the
1st episode, but not properly visited.
And then we see the consequences.
Like it's not much like the other one.
It's a little bit like the monks trilogy.
It's like just sort of 2 stages of a particular event that are
quite different from one another and that each tell a pretty good
story with a cliffhanger.
I think that the cybermen are always kind of disappointing.
Like they're always a bit rubbish and they never really live up to
what we imagine them to be.
And you can see Russell trying to make them scary again by having
those scenes where people are being marched into Battersea Power
Station and stuff like that.
And I think that that's a really underrated genesis of the
cybermen's story, but this just completely blows it out of the
water.
It's so much better.
Like just a better, more terrifying conception of of where the
cybermen come from and what they are, how inevitable they are
think it's just so good.
I think we've been trained to think, with good reason, the dark
macabre doctor is always the best version.
And so world and oftentime is really great because it's dripping
in atmosphere.
It's got this immense foreboding to it all throughout.
But then you changed that bucolic location in the Dr. Falls and
you strip away all of those atmospheric trappings and you're just
left with the drama of the situation and what's happening between
the characters and it's even better.
I like the juxtaposition of the styles of these 2 episodes.
The 1st one is a kind of slow burn, psychological horror story.
And then the final episode is based on prestige, basically.
Cottage under siege.
It's also kind of a little bit of a remake of time of the doctor
as well, where the doctor stops and stays in order to save a bunch
of people who live in a kind of rural area and are under attack by
among other things, Cyberman.
Like I think time of the doctor is very good.
I think this is perhaps more successful than that.
I think the big shame is it's not the finale.
Like, it's not what Capoli goes out on.
We say during the episodes that this would have been an all-time
great regeneration story.
And it still is just slightly delayed.
Well, look, we'll need twice upon a time to the whole
retrospective, I know some of you're going to be discussing this
in a couple of weeks time.
I'm just going to say this.
I have watched it.
I did like it.
I think to get the warm farewells for the regulars, really
important.
The use of the 1st doctor is not great.
And I think they missed a beat by not bringing back Carol Anne
Ford for one of those sequences with him.
And Rachel Talalay, who's usually my favourite director, Ben and
Polly.
What was going on there?
Like, you know, did we just drag 2 people off the street and
decide that's what we're going to go with?
Hey, Ben was in Holyaks.
But I'm just saying, I'm just saying like, yeah, there's some
takeaways for me, but obviously listeners, you've got that to
enjoy in a couple of weeks' time when the boys talk about, we call
him giant Ben because he's about 6 feet taller than Michael
Grace.
Jane, snug, marry, avoid.
Heather, Eliza, Erika.
I'd have to marry Heather.
It would have to be a sexless marriage because I'm not a lesbian.
This lady?
And she, she might bring me back to life in a 1000 years' time on
a mondace in cybership.
Just be attracted by that little sparkling her eye.
I think I would...
Oh, no, I kind of also want to marry Erica because she's just so
fabulous.
Awesome.
No, you could marry both.
Polyamory, probably Amory.
She'd let you in at nice if you got out the front and you couldn't
work out the alarm code.
And who's the 3rd one?
Eliza.
The mother in knock knock.
I think I would have to avoid Eliza.
She seems like a lovely woman, but I don't want lice.
I need a cream, yeah.
Well done.
Thank you.
So, reflecting all of that.
One to watch, one to avoid, one that's underrated.
The one to watch, I think, is thin ice.
I think it's really amazingly good.
I think the underrated one. is the 80s of light.
And there's none that I would really avoid, but maybe knock
knock.
Peter?
Want to watch?
Absolutely the finale, one of the best Doctor Who stories that's
ever been told.
The one that I think is underrated is extremists.
I think it's quite highly rated, but I think it should be more
highly rated because it's so successful in delivering mood.
I want to avoid, I don't think there's one to avoid in this
season.
I think part of the reason that this is so successful is that
there is not a bad episode.
So I don't think there's one that I would avoid this season.
The underrated one, I would probably say for me knock knock.
It was the one I reevaluated the most on rewatching. one to watch
the entire season.
Like, to me, I can't. 12 to watch.
Yeah.
Well, it's good advice, though.
Like, to me, I have to watch it all from beginning to end, it's
probably the most like in hindsight, probably the strongest
season.
You've touched on this Peter earlier in this episode is it holds
together really well.
It's a really strong set of episodes.
There's nothing that's terrible.
You know.
Some of them are middling, but it all holds together quite well as
a whole.
I can't think of another modern series or indeed classic series
apart from maybe a couple of the Hinchcliffe years that don't have
an unambiguously bad story in them.
There's always a poor relation, like not this season.
For me, one to watch could be any number of ones from thin ice to
the finale to Empress of Mars, but I guess I'm going to put
Empress of Mars as my underrated, one to avoid, well, there's only
bits and pieces.
The last 20 minutes a smile, basically, that's it. to a grimace.
We've got Jenny Laird award nomination.
Oh, speaking of grimace.
Is there anything that you would give a Jenny Laird Award
nomination to for this series?
The reaction to the fake regeneration is something that bobs to my
mind, but what else is there?
I'm just trying to think.
I think all of life, the land, is a bit of a puzzling, creative
choice, and it pains me to say it, because I think Toby Whithouse
is so good, generally, but it's just such a missed opportunity.
It's a really interesting setup, which they then don't do anything
with.
And I think one of the reasons we don't like that regeneration
seat, there's myriad other reasons is because it feels like the
dramatic climax of the episode and it's unearned and it goes
nowhere.
I think it actually spoils it slightly too when in the Doctor
Falls.
We see his hand blazing with regeneration energy only a few weeks
after we last saw it.
I think that was a bit of a bad idea, I think.
And then he doesn't regenerate again.
Yeah, that's right.
It's a bit of a tease.
This is rather unimaginative of me, but I have to agree with you.
It's never unimaginative.
I really struggled to find a puzzling creative choice in this
season.
There are some things that don't work, but I think the fake
regeneration scene is problematic and why you're doing it.
No, you could have done that any other way.
Um, and you could have given it more meaning if it had been closer
to the the curse ofenric reason for doing that.
You know, like her faith was keeping this world together or
something.
And it's something similar to that.
Her brain is the thing that's, yeah, fuelling it, but if those
ideas have been more closely linked, maybe there could have been a
purpose to that scene in that episode.
It's what you say, Peter, about that regeneration thing is just
for something that happens in the middle of the episode and it
isn't the climax and that's the same point that you're making.
If the climax of the episode had been destroying Bill's faith and
doing a whole thing, and then we'd be less nasty to her afterwards
I think it would have been forgivable.
But it's just a sort of dumb thing that happens in the middle of
the episode.
And then we go on to such a terrible climax that it needs lots and
lots of underpinning with voiceovers and stuff.
And even then, we're not quite sure what... breaks the Terrence
Dix rule.
Never cruel or cowardly.
It's a cruel thing to do to Bill. odd.
I think we could have had a Jenny Ladd moment in Empress of Mars
because we've got Ison Churchman playing Alpha Centauri, which is
just an amazing moment when that happens.
That goes back to Planet of the Spiders.
They could have exhumed Jenny Led to play the Empress.
How about that?
That'd be a Jenny Ladd moment.
Bonnie Langford Award.
Startling discovering.
Oh, Pearl.
Pearl.
Who else?
Has to be Pearl.
And the runner-up is obviously Matt Lucas.
Yeah, yeah, unequivocally is Pearl.
Yeah.
Totally.
And and for the same reason as the Bonnie Langford Award, you know
like Bonnie Langford comes along, everyone's kind of cross, Ian
Levine's cross.
It's Violet Elizabeth Bott coming in to destroy our program and it
turns out she's absolutely superb.
Uh, we didn't have an opinion about Pearl going in except for the
opinion that we got from her role as as Bill.
Info for the future, friend from the future, photo from the
future.
Sums up that episode, doesn't it?
And she's absolutely magnificent, just one of the best things that
ever happened to the modern era.
A great companion, just truly superb, charming, funny, wonderful
just brilliant.
I look forward to Pearl Mackey coming back in new, new, new Doctor
Who in 30 years' time working for units.
Yeah, would that be awesome?
A close 2nd to Bill, I think, is the 2nd half of the season's
ensemble cast is it just works so well.
The bringing in of Missy, the sort of building of that plot, and
it culminates in those last 2 episodes with those characters who
just, it's just kind of glorious.
Peter Pearl, Matt, Michelle, they all just work brilliantly
together.
Yeah, the strongest cast of the modern era in that in that 2nd
half of this season.
It's the PPMMs.
Well, that's all the time we have for now.
We'll be back on Christmas Day, to say a final festive farewell to
Peter Capaldi's doctor, in twice upon a time.
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts
and you can keep up with us on our website, Flight3Entirety.com
where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all
of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500
year diary, and the 2nd grade and bountiful human empire.
Until next time, we'll catch you at Christmas if you're feeling
ridiculous.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
See you soon.
Ta da.
Good night.
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todby, will be Nathan
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, the PPMMs, was recorded on the 10th of November 2024
and released on the 8th of December.
Before we return with our Christmas episode, maximum power, we'll
be back with our coverage of series D, starting on the 21st of
December with rescue.
Check out our website at maximumpowerpodcast.com or our new blue
sky account, also at maximumpowerpodcast.com.
Final say about this season, then.
If you want to leave the listeners with something, what would you
say?
This is the best Capaldi season.
I know there is a strong argument for series 8.
Um, but I think unambiguously, this tells a good set of stories
with a good set of characters what more could you ask for?
It's funny the way we complained about series 9, how introspective
it was and how focussed it was just on the 2 leads, and that there
wasn't kind of much beyond that.
And I still liked 9 and I thought it did weird and experimental
things, but what is great is to just sort of come back and just do
some solid fun Doctor Who for 12 weeks.
Just do it.
It's just like really good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I just love this series.
It's, it is, it is just, it's just gorgeous.
I know it has its faults, but I just love it.
Well, as I said, at the beginning.
It's refreshing.
We've all said it's fun and it's certainly, I think, Moffat going
out on a high. ending with an all-time classic story. can't go
wrong.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, that's all I got.
Yeah I think that's good.
Sorry, is that okay?
No, that's fine.
Like, it's really hard.
Yeah.