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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:26:19

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the

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only Doctor Who podcast built from triumph and heartbreak and

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boredom and laughter and cutting your toenails.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm James.

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And I'm triumphant boredom.

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Well, since the doctor met Bill properly for the 1st time, we've

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been pursued by a puddle, attacked by emojis insulted by an

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aristocrat, evicted by bugs, suffocated by capitalism, simulated

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by cadavers, threatened by bacteria, taken over by fascists

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stranded on Mars, saved by children, shot in the chest, and

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inspired by the doctor to fight for our lives.

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Let's see how we feel about it all in the series 10

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retrospective.

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Welcome to our retrospective, and I always start with the hard

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hitting questions, so here's a snug Mary avoid.

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Mr. Huffle, the monks, a Mondassian Cyberman.

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I mean, I don't think you could marry a Mondassian sideman

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couldn't wake up to that voice every day. don't know.

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I don't know.

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I think Mr. Huffle, Mr. Huffle feels pain, so he's going to be

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easy to manipulate.

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And I imagine that's what marriage is about.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it is. marry him.

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Todd, he'll marry him. you'd be Mr. Huffle as well.

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Mr. Huffle.

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I think I would have to snog the cyberman because...

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The kiss would always be open-mouthed, wouldn't it?

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Yeah, this is very good.

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It would be like kissing Roger Moore, wouldn't it, really?

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You'll avoid the monks?

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I would avoid the monks because I think kissing the monks would

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involve in like bits falling off and stuff, like things between

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your teeth.

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I just don't think that that's a fun experience for anyone.

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Not even the viewers.

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Especially not the viewers.

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Okay.

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What do you think of the monks?

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Do you think they were successful?

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I like the monks.

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I think their design is quite interesting if a little bit

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generic.

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I don't think they're used very well in lie of the land, but I

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think in the 2 preceding episodes, especially when they're down

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underneath the Vatican and they're being shot very well and

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they're coming out of the shadows.

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I think they're really quite effective.

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It's funny the simplicity of it, isn't it?

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Like, there are 3 sort of big monsters from the Moffat era, aren't

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there?

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The weeping angels.

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I know that they predate the Moffit era, but the weeping angels

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the silence and the monks, they seem to be like the three.

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Yeah, the 10 poles.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And they're visually striking.

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They're completely distinct from one another and they're very high

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concept.

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The monks may be less so, but the others certainly.

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And I think they work really well.

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I don't think they're the sort of thing that anyone will be

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itching to bring back. discovering this time through and watching

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those 3 episodes and seeing how much they are a vehicle for

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Moffatt's critique of religion made me more interested in them.

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So, yeah, no, I like them.

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I mean, they've got stupid things like that thing where they open

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their mouth and and just words come out, what sort of nonsense is

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that?

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Quite like that.

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But yeah, I think they're great.

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You can handwave that away, though, because, you know, they're

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appearing in this form for the human race.

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Yeah.

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Like, there's not their true form. because you might find them

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attractive.

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Yeah, I, I, I, I, as a concept, I love the monks.

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I think the episodes that they're in are lopsided and flawed, but

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I probably enjoy.

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I probably enjoy them more than more than most.

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It's pity that we didn't have the monks up against the space

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Anglicans.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That would have been interesting.

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Do you think they could have been like a season threat rather than

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just a 3 episode thing or?

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Well, I think the thing that we talked about during that trilogy

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was how it was Doctor Who experimenting with a different way of

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telling a story.

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And it's the kind of serialisation that routinely happens in just

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about everything now where you just tell a self-contained story

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but it's at different stages of the invasion.

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And Simon made the distinction between a three-parter.

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I think you did as well, a bit James, between a three-parter and a

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trilogy.

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And I like that Doctor Who tried the trilogy.

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I thought it went really well.

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And I like the fact that Moffa did it out of necessity.

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So he came back and he did this season, which we'll talk about, I'm

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sure, and he wasn't expecting to do it.

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And so he was kind of scrabbling around a little bit for ideas.

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He was open to ideas, and the fact that I think it was Peter

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Harness, who came up with the general idea of the monks, and

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Moffat looked at that and went, that's good.

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We can do something with this and sort of worked backwards to make

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a loose story about them.

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And then looked at something like oxygen where the doctor was

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blinded and then pushed that forward into the trilogy.

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I think he was just making things out of what he had and it works

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really well.

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It's just him being creative on the hop.

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One of our listeners, Luke Hobbs, says, what are your thoughts on

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how the 3 parts of the Monk trilogy fit together with each other

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and how they fit into this season, which we are discussing right

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now?

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And as you said, someone made very good points back in those

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episodes.

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Yeah, I mean, it's a problem that the show has or a challenge that

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the show faces when it comes back, where in the 70s, it's kind of

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an anthology show, and every 4 weeks they forget what's happened

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to them, and then they go off on another adventure, which, and

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they never mention the previous adventure ever again.

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And, you know, the 80s addresses that in some ways and the 60s

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isn't actually much like that.

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It also is sort of a continuous story.

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And so Russell does it by having sort of relationships between the

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characters that develop during the course of the thing and also by

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having an arc word.

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And Moffatt does a similar thing.

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You know, the characters, our main characters find out more about

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each other in each more fit season.

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And here, all of that's been paired back, all of the characters

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that he invented for his era of the show are kind of gone.

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He's got Nardol and Bill and Missy, and he just tells a story

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about them.

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And that story gets given a shape by having these events that

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happen and then have consequences in subsequent episodes.

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And even, like, even in the two-part finale, we're referring back

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to things that happen to Bill in the Monk trilogy, like in in lie

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of the land.

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Like, I just think all of that's really good.

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Like an arc doesn't have to be the hybrid.

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It doesn't have to be a big...

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It doesn't have to be a big high concept thing.

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It can just be, we remember what happened last week, things move

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into each other.

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Things have consequences, things are woven throughout the season.

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What a normal TV show does.

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I think it worked really well this year.

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I think it was born out of necessity as well.

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Again, from what we were talking about before, where he wasn't

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expecting to do this season.

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And so it just shows you Moth at his unvarnished best.

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He doesn't have a big concept for the season.

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What he has is a location.

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What he has is a series of ideas for what all happened going

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forward and it just works beautifully as a set of episodes rather

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than as one huge story that you buy into.

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No, I agree with that.

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I think that's why it's probably my favourite season of the modern

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era is because of the fact that he has just showing how brilliant

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he is as a writer at pulling all these disparate threads together

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because he doesn't have an overarching high concept plot.

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It's just, I've created all these characters.

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I have to track them into situations, I have to get them from A to

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B to C.

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And it's quite intricately kind of tied all together.

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There's bits that pop up throughout the season to get tied

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together in the middle and then at the end, in a way which it's

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really quite satisfying and on an emotional level, not a not on

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that sort of big plot level, which I really like.

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And as ever, it comes down to episode quality.

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You know, you can have the biggest high concept in the world, but

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if you don't have that great stories to tell with it, it work

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satisfying, we just so happened that this season is a series of

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really good episodes.

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Siheart, um, ask this question, is more for going out on a high

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which sort of feeds into what you guys are saying.

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Yeah, I mean, there's 2 stories that he does, I think, where he

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sets himself a proper challenge, and one is the pilot, where he

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kind of challenges himself to tell a story with no funny business

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that takes place over a period of time, like over the course of a

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year, and that's magnificent.

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You know, he rises to that.

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And then the end where he sets himself the task of making the

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Mondassian cybermen work on modern television, which is a pretty

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wild challenge, if you think about it.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely mad.

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And he does extremists, which I think is a very solid kind of just

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a, the kind of Moffat story you don't see often enough where it's

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just him writing a story in the middle of the season for a

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change.

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It's the listen of this season.

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Yeah, or the beast below, you know.

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So all of those are great.

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And I think, I don't know.

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I was a bit weary of the Moffat era by the end.

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And I checked back on a Facebook post that I made after twice upon

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a time where I kind of said, thank God Chipnall's coming.

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Yes, thank God Jim was going.

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But in retrospect, I think he does go out on a high, and there are

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plenty of people who I think were losing interest in maybe 8 and

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certainly a 9 that are back on board for 10, BJ Hobbs, who we had

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on our smile episode, said that that was her experience.

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So I think he is going out on a high.

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I don't think he has lulled.

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You know, I think he does make decisions that people don't enjoy

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very much and sometimes he gets a little bit kind of caught up in

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himself a bit, but he's a pretty amazing writer and for an

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unexpected series that he's just doing to make sure the show stays

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alive while the next regime kind of gets its ducks in a row.

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This is a pretty good season.

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And I think, too, the fact that he knows that he's not going on.

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He doesn't have to set anything up or have back planning in the

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back of your head for what's moving forward, which sometimes takes

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your focus on what's currently happening in a season.

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So I think that also plays a factor in just the focus on these set

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of stories and the structure within this season, right?

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It's one of those historically galling things that the 1st chibnal

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season.

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Jody's 1st season is given all the focus as a hard reboot for the

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show.

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Whereas this series is a soft reboot for the show, and to my mind

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much more successful than that one is, and yet it doesn't get the

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focus and the acclaim.

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Yeah, it's a fantastic self-free bit of the show.

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Like he thought he was finishing.

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He wrapped all those plot threads up.

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Really, at the end of series 9.

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Like he'd sort of got rid of all these characters, tied up all

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this ongoing plotarch stuff over the previous couple of years.

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Most of that was in the time of the doctor.

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Most of the time, the doctor.

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And so he ties up all of this sort of Clara stuff and puts that to

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bed and he thinks he's not doing anymore.

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And then he gets this surprise season and has to create something

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which is wholly formed within itself.

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And so you kind of get this much more satisfying payoff, I think

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at the end of the season because he's got he's got a limited

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canvas that he's working with and he doesn't have all of the sort

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of messy plot threads to tie up.

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He's just telling a whole story within the season.

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I think that that really works very well.

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I just can sum it up by saying, I think it's refreshing.

246
00:13:20.519 --> 00:13:24.120
I think it's palate cleansing and that's what I really like about

247
00:13:24.120 --> 00:13:24.419
it.

248
00:13:24.480 --> 00:13:25.799
Are you still talking about kissing the monks?

249
00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:43.379
Do you think that that means that the big problem with the Moffat

250
00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:49.799
era is that the there's not a quick enough turnover of regular

251
00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:50.519
cast?

252
00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:57.419
Because this is so good because you get to do a thing like what

253
00:13:57.419 --> 00:14:03.179
Russell does, you know, in series, maybe two, 3, and 4, and his

254
00:14:03.179 --> 00:14:07.200
newest series as well, his most recent series, where he gets to

255
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:12.840
centre a group of episodes around the experience of an individual

256
00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:14.039
who is new to us.

257
00:14:14.519 --> 00:14:19.559
I think there's a prevailing school of thought that Clara stayed

258
00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:21.659
too long, and I would agree with that.

259
00:14:21.720 --> 00:14:25.799
I think one of the reasons I find series 9, the least satisfying

260
00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:30.539
of Mothat seasons, is that there's really nothing new, like they

261
00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:31.740
said in the publicity for it.

262
00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:34.320
Same old, same old, doctor and Clara and the Tartars.

263
00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:37.860
I guess this is something that we'll talk about in the full

264
00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:40.259
retrospective of the entire Moffat era.

265
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:43.799
And it's a certainly very interesting question that we that will

266
00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:48.179
come back to, is the length of time that both doctors spent with

267
00:14:48.179 --> 00:14:52.379
Amy and Rory and then with Clara, you know, rather than having a

268
00:14:52.379 --> 00:14:57.480
new refreshing teen every year and and we'll certainly we'll get

269
00:14:57.480 --> 00:14:58.679
onto that and discuss that.

270
00:14:58.740 --> 00:15:03.419
Because, I mean, the pilot smile and thin eyes, I think smile is

271
00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:04.379
the weakest of those three.

272
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:05.759
All bloody good.

273
00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:08.159
Yeah, they get to do things that we haven't done for ages.

274
00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:09.600
Smile's not great.

275
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:12.179
The worst episode of the season.

276
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:13.500
I actually really enjoy smile.

277
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.480
No, no, no, no.

278
00:15:15.539 --> 00:15:17.879
Like, we all have different opinions on this, obviously.

279
00:15:17.879 --> 00:15:21.360
It would be boring if we didn't, but I like smile because it's so

280
00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:26.759
atypical of Doctor Who. and it's just doing something different.

281
00:15:27.059 --> 00:15:32.279
See, I, I, coming back to this, like smile is probably one of my

282
00:15:32.279 --> 00:15:33.419
favourite episodes of the season.

283
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:37.080
Yeah, I really like what it does at the beginning, which is just

284
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.419
having the 2 of them wandering around exploring a place.

285
00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.179
Like, um, Arc in space episode one.

286
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:45.480
Yes, but I think it just collapses in upon itself the point.

287
00:15:45.480 --> 00:15:47.700
They go through that door downstairs.

288
00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:48.840
It just falls to pieces.

289
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:51.360
I mean, I like to tour through the paper now.

290
00:15:51.419 --> 00:15:53.519
And I just don't enjoy it from that point on.

291
00:15:53.639 --> 00:15:58.500
But all the stuff outside, to begin with, that's tremendous.

292
00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.360
Can I just say if we're talking about smile, perhaps being the

293
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.360
least successful episode of the season, that's a pretty good

294
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:06.720
season.

295
00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:08.279
Oh, no, I still like it.

296
00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:11.159
Yeah, I don't think there's actually an episode in this season

297
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.659
that I think is poor.

298
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:14.039
No.

299
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.279
I'm trying to think what my least favourite is.

300
00:16:17.340 --> 00:16:19.620
It might be knock knock.

301
00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:22.259
But again, you're going to ask me later.

302
00:16:22.379 --> 00:16:25.500
We're going to go through all these episodes, right?

303
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.379
Since we're talking about sort of the 1st three.

304
00:16:28.440 --> 00:16:29.519
David Kitchen.

305
00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:33.960
How does Moffatt, having a companion who isn't special, like Amy

306
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:35.340
and Clara affect the season?

307
00:16:35.460 --> 00:16:39.179
Does Capaldi work best with this more, with a more traditional

308
00:16:39.179 --> 00:16:42.299
companion, having traditional adventures, or does he lose

309
00:16:42.299 --> 00:16:42.539
something?

310
00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:46.559
It's funny how he's name checked in the episode when Bill comes in

311
00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:48.720
and says, this is some kind of David Ketchum?

312
00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.820
David says season 10 is his favourite Moffat series.

313
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:54.539
Yeah, yeah.

314
00:16:54.600 --> 00:17:00.899
I think like Russell doesn't do special companions, does he?

315
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:06.240
until this most recent season where the reveal is actually she's

316
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:06.720
not special.

317
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:10.500
We think she's a Moffatt companion until we discover that she's

318
00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:13.559
just a normal person with Amelia Gibbs's character.

319
00:17:13.619 --> 00:17:17.400
He said special in inverter comments, like design, high concept

320
00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:18.359
like...

321
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:19.079
Yeah, I think so.

322
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:22.319
A complex space-time event, as Brendan, I think.

323
00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:25.140
Did Brendan put it that way in an earlier episode?

324
00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:26.700
The show puts it in that way.

325
00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:27.660
Well, yes, yeah.

326
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.500
Part of the deal with Clara is it's also kind of the discovery

327
00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:32.579
that she's not special.

328
00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.380
Like, she's not inherently special.

329
00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:38.339
She becomes special because she makes that act of self sacrifice

330
00:17:38.339 --> 00:17:40.079
but it hasn't happened yet.

331
00:17:40.140 --> 00:17:44.400
And so she's being regarded as a mystery in a way that we thought

332
00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.119
kind of hampered the character, but the discovery is that we were

333
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:50.460
wrong to regard her in that way all along.

334
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.619
And she is just an ordinary person.

335
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:59.400
Like with Amy, it's Moffatt very definitely making the doctor, a

336
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.980
kind of fairy tale figure, like your imaginary friend.

337
00:18:01.980 --> 00:18:06.779
And so she's not high concept as such, is she, she just met the

338
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:07.559
doctor that one time.

339
00:18:07.619 --> 00:18:08.819
Oh, special.

340
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:09.480
Yeah.

341
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:12.359
She has high concept things happen to her.

342
00:18:12.420 --> 00:18:13.140
Yeah.

343
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:16.980
What effect do you think having the character of Bill has on the

344
00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:17.819
12 doctor?

345
00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:18.900
for this season?

346
00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:24.180
I think having a duckling to take under his wing really sort of

347
00:18:24.180 --> 00:18:28.980
shaves any remaining rough edges off the character and makes him

348
00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:32.279
he's quite warm and cuddly this season, even though he's played by

349
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:34.680
Peter Capaldi, and so he's got that slight edge in the

350
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:35.160
performance.

351
00:18:35.220 --> 00:18:40.200
And I think Todd made the allusion to the 3 stages of Pertwee

352
00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.019
previously, and I ideally see it.

353
00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:49.319
He's even got Pertuis season 11 Buffon. which gets bigger and

354
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:50.279
bigger and bigger.

355
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:51.180
Absolutely.

356
00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:53.579
It looks like a maine by the time we had twice upon a time.

357
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:55.140
But it's also a different energy too.

358
00:18:55.200 --> 00:19:00.119
There's a, you know, um, Jenna Coleman has an intensity, whereas I

359
00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:05.279
think Paul Mackey has a joyfulness about her and just something

360
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:10.380
different for him to bounce off and that makes it surprising a lot

361
00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:12.960
of the time you think, oh, that's where we're going with this or

362
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:14.819
we're taking the doctor in this directional.

363
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:16.079
That's his reaction.

364
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:18.059
And it's a bit off putting at first.

365
00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:19.740
Like, well, what was that?

366
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.900
The friend of the foe of the whatever it was?

367
00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:23.880
Friend from the future, which was terrible.

368
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:25.019
But we won't go there.

369
00:19:25.079 --> 00:19:27.960
But then when you're watching these scenes and because you've had

370
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.460
2 whole years of Clara with the doctor to to have that happening.

371
00:19:32.519 --> 00:19:33.900
At 1st it's a bit off putting.

372
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:37.680
And then it sort of just kicks in and it makes you wanting more

373
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:40.440
than just this season with there's something about their

374
00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.180
performance styles that meshes.

375
00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:47.400
And so I think the best scene that Capaldi ever has as the doctor

376
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:52.799
is the climax of extremists in the Oval Office, where it's just

377
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.279
him and Bill talking about what's been happening and they're both

378
00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:58.440
keeping it very quiet and very solemn.

379
00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:01.740
I think that's a tour de force performance by Capaldi, and he

380
00:20:01.740 --> 00:20:04.740
delivers a couple of those opposite Pearl Mackey.

381
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.359
I think their energy is really good.

382
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.559
Well, I think that, yes, like playing on that idea.

383
00:20:10.619 --> 00:20:15.240
The actors, I think, find a rhythm quite quickly, and they kind of

384
00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:18.599
it feels like they're riffing off each other in a way, like, like

385
00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:21.900
the energy kind of feeds back and forth in a way that's really

386
00:20:21.900 --> 00:20:22.799
quite satisfying.

387
00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:25.559
They evidently enjoyed working together a lot.

388
00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:29.819
And it's such a pity that they didn't get longer together.

389
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.359
I kind of like the fact that it's just this one beautiful season

390
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.220
exists by itself.

391
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.119
Oh, no, I agree with you there, but I always want more.

392
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.200
You know, it's one of those things.

393
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:42.660
It's the C.S. Lewis thing that I've quoted before.

394
00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.740
There's 2 times you can stop doing something before everyone's

395
00:20:46.740 --> 00:20:48.299
sick of it and afterwards.

396
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.440
And so, yes, you know, we can always go back and enjoy Pearl's

397
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:56.339
year on Doctor Who and be grateful that we had her.

398
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:57.779
And I guess there's that.

399
00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.859
All right, it's time for a snog, marry, avoid.

400
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:11.400
Here we go.

401
00:21:11.460 --> 00:21:16.559
Missy, the master, Mr. Razor.

402
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.880
I mean, if you're married, either miss you or the master, you'd be

403
00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.839
marrying both of them, surely.

404
00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:22.980
And Mr. Razor.

405
00:21:23.579 --> 00:21:29.339
Well, I think Bill is actually quite happy with Mr. Razor for 10

406
00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:30.299
years.

407
00:21:30.299 --> 00:21:31.259
Oh, do you think they went there?

408
00:21:31.319 --> 00:21:34.859
No, but I think they, but there's a kind of sort of married couple

409
00:21:34.859 --> 00:21:35.700
thing happening.

410
00:21:35.759 --> 00:21:37.859
And he makes tea.

411
00:21:37.980 --> 00:21:40.799
It's terrible, but he does at least make it for you.

412
00:21:40.859 --> 00:21:42.299
So I think that's a definite marry.

413
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.019
No, Missy, wouldn't you?

414
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:47.579
Well, no, I'd be too scared.

415
00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:48.660
Right.

416
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:49.980
Absolutely terrified.

417
00:21:50.339 --> 00:21:52.740
You wouldn't want to marry Missy.

418
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:55.140
Then you just be labelled comic relief for expedition.

419
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:55.920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

420
00:21:55.980 --> 00:21:58.500
So I'm definitely marrying Mr. Razor.

421
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:01.380
I am definitely snogging John Sim.

422
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.200
You've got to believe it, with or without.

423
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:04.980
I don't mind.

424
00:22:05.160 --> 00:22:09.839
And Missy, that scary lady who pressed me up against a wall one

425
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:10.140
time.

426
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.539
I'm not I'm avoiding her.

427
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.740
See, yeah, so I would probably say I would avoid Mr. Razor because

428
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:19.319
he's turning me into a cyberman. that's true.

429
00:22:19.380 --> 00:22:24.299
Make you taller. throw away the bits.

430
00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:29.160
What do you think of Michelle's performance this year?

431
00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:31.079
Oh, divine.

432
00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:32.160
Yes, glorious.

433
00:22:32.220 --> 00:22:34.680
Yeah, yeah, she's incredible.

434
00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:35.759
Isn't it amazing?

435
00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:37.140
We're not a bunch of gays, are we?

436
00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:39.779
It's so great. isn't it?

437
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:45.839
Like those 2 years that she's a kind of semi-regular in Capaldi's

438
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.119
era, like the 1st year and the final year.

439
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.920
And he just can't leave her alone.

440
00:22:49.980 --> 00:22:54.359
She is so superb that even though he kind of visibly kills her off

441
00:22:54.420 --> 00:22:57.599
you know, in the series 8 finale.

442
00:22:57.660 --> 00:23:01.980
She's back 2 episodes later because he has to write for her and

443
00:23:01.980 --> 00:23:05.400
she's magnificent in that 2 parter and particularly that 1st

444
00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:10.200
episode when the doctor's absent and she's kind of running the

445
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:10.380
show.

446
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:18.299
I think, you know, she is, I think, the best version of the master

447
00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:22.859
even though I think Delgado comes in a fairly respectable second.

448
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:29.339
She is so funny and so clever and so unexpected and so brutally

449
00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:29.759
dark.

450
00:23:29.819 --> 00:23:32.519
I think she just gets it absolutely right.

451
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:35.220
It's perhaps the best thing.

452
00:23:35.279 --> 00:23:40.500
I mean, Moffatt casts 2 incredible doctors, but after that, it's

453
00:23:40.500 --> 00:23:43.319
casting Missy that's his real triumph, I think.

454
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:46.799
The master has always been a case of diminishing returns for me.

455
00:23:46.859 --> 00:23:50.160
I never thought anyone could match up to Delgado in my

456
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:55.079
appreciation and Michelle Gomez comes in and is written so well

457
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:58.559
and just provides a slightly different spin on the master that I

458
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:02.339
think is equally good as Delgado and that's high praise.

459
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:05.460
I love all of her line readings.

460
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:09.420
It's a bit obvious that she's off filming Sabrina because in some

461
00:24:09.420 --> 00:24:09.960
episodes.

462
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.720
It's sort of like we've got her in this set, we've got her in this

463
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:12.960
set.

464
00:24:13.019 --> 00:24:15.119
We have to film all these things and slaughter in.

465
00:24:15.180 --> 00:24:18.059
So I think the fact that they managed to do that and work around

466
00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:22.799
that and make that part of the story successfully is just from it

467
00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:26.400
again to Stephen and his vision for where that character was

468
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:26.759
going.

469
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:30.960
I did say in last week's episode, I think, or was it the week

470
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:35.400
before, that I kind of would have loved one other adventure with

471
00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:39.539
her out of the Tartars with the Tartars crew actually in just a

472
00:24:39.539 --> 00:24:42.599
proper adventure and actually ending up escaping.

473
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:43.319
Do you know what I mean?

474
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:47.339
So throwing you off the scent that she could turn either way

475
00:24:47.339 --> 00:24:48.240
thinking, 0 my goodness.

476
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:52.319
But as I mentioned in that episode, then we would have not had all

477
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:55.859
the wonderful comic relief exposition stuff at the beginning of

478
00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:58.019
the world and often time episode.

479
00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.019
If there was any master who should have had a companion, I think

480
00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:01.859
it should have been her.

481
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:06.180
I can just imagine her riffing off a junior slightly less evil

482
00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:08.579
version of herself and it would have been really fun.

483
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:10.740
Like Clara.

484
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:12.720
Yeah, she showed up.

485
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.859
Indeticians are pretty.

486
00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:14.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

487
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.640
In everything I just said, yes.

488
00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:23.220
I wanted to go through and just get your final thoughts on some of

489
00:25:23.220 --> 00:25:24.420
the episodes for this season.

490
00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:28.259
So we'll start with, well, the return of Dr. Mysterio, which

491
00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:29.579
really started the block off.

492
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:32.460
I think it's massively underrated.

493
00:25:32.519 --> 00:25:36.000
It's really, really funny and great and it has quite a touching

494
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:36.480
ending.

495
00:25:36.539 --> 00:25:37.680
I really enjoyed it.

496
00:25:37.740 --> 00:25:40.740
I think it's overrated and still kind of fun.

497
00:25:41.220 --> 00:25:44.160
I think it's fun but forgettable.

498
00:25:44.220 --> 00:25:47.819
Like, you know, in the moment I enjoy it for all the reasons

499
00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:51.359
you've mentioned, Nathan, but then except for Mr. Huffle, which I

500
00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:52.259
think is just the worst thing ever.

501
00:25:52.319 --> 00:25:54.720
And, um, enjoy about Nathan's husband.

502
00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:57.000
Yeah, that's not the worst thing ever.

503
00:25:57.059 --> 00:26:00.240
But it's yeah, it's not great.

504
00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:03.599
But then I forget about it I mean, not every Doctor Who episode

505
00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:05.039
has to be a life-changing event.

506
00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:05.819
Do you know what I mean?

507
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:07.619
It can just be a music.

508
00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:08.279
Yeah, that's right.

509
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:09.720
It can't just be a music for now.

510
00:26:09.779 --> 00:26:14.519
But being a Christmas special, I think that we hold them to such

511
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:15.660
high standards, right?

512
00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:17.519
But it's so much fun.

513
00:26:17.579 --> 00:26:21.059
It's so much fun And I think you make the point in the episode

514
00:26:21.059 --> 00:26:24.000
about it being an up to the minute cultural reference.

515
00:26:24.119 --> 00:26:29.759
I can forgive Mysteria a lot because it's just fun.

516
00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:35.279
And using like Matt Lucas in the way you do is this strange comic

517
00:26:35.279 --> 00:26:39.420
relief character. just sort of punctures a lot of the, you know

518
00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:43.140
pomposity that we keep going on about characters puncturing the

519
00:26:43.140 --> 00:26:45.119
pomposity of Capoli's doctor.

520
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.619
There's something about that sort of straight man funny man kind

521
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:52.079
of... don't think Matt Lucas is straight.

522
00:26:55.559 --> 00:26:59.400
But what I do think in that episode is that you do get different

523
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:01.980
sides of the Capoldi doctor, like when he's eating that sushi and

524
00:27:01.980 --> 00:27:03.359
stuff like that. is so funny.

525
00:27:03.420 --> 00:27:05.039
There's a change.

526
00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:10.380
There's another turning point, you know, for the 3rd iteration of

527
00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:10.980
the character.

528
00:27:11.039 --> 00:27:12.539
He lets Kapaldi do comedy business.

529
00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:13.859
Yeah, which is great.

530
00:27:13.920 --> 00:27:17.220
Well, that thing, the opening scene with him and the kid is pretty

531
00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:17.579
great.

532
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:21.299
He also gets one of my favourite lines in the show's history, which

533
00:27:21.299 --> 00:27:22.500
is Mrs. Lombard.

534
00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:25.079
There are some situations that are too stupid to be allowed to

535
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:26.759
continue, which I think is just awesome.

536
00:27:26.819 --> 00:27:30.599
Absolutely I always think it's a pity that harm you should.

537
00:27:30.660 --> 00:27:33.359
Don't turn up again because I just kind of think having them in

538
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:35.160
those 2 Christmas specials back to back.

539
00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:38.279
You kind of think that they're going somewhere, but obviously, they

540
00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:39.180
never appear again.

541
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.079
Finish box set.

542
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:44.519
That was my next...

543
00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:46.559
That sounds like a Moffat companion, doesn't it?

544
00:27:46.619 --> 00:27:47.160
Harmony Shoal.

545
00:27:47.220 --> 00:27:49.140
Yeah, there's just 2 random nouns.

546
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:51.420
All right, the pilot.

547
00:27:51.660 --> 00:27:53.099
So fun.

548
00:27:53.220 --> 00:27:55.380
So great. properly good.

549
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:57.660
I think actually probably good in a way that I didn't expect it

550
00:27:57.660 --> 00:27:57.900
all.

551
00:27:57.960 --> 00:28:00.660
It's not structured like a Doctor Who story.

552
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:02.220
It structured like a biopic.

553
00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:05.880
It's interesting, you know, formally interesting, as we said.

554
00:28:05.940 --> 00:28:06.539
Just great.

555
00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:07.619
Brilliant beginning.

556
00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:10.740
One of the strongest season openers in the modern era, I think

557
00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:14.039
because it, again, is playing against the type.

558
00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:19.740
And I think one of us, maybe it was me, made the point in that

559
00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:23.940
episode that they do the whole sort of beginning of season arc

560
00:28:23.940 --> 00:28:31.799
that Russell would do with the present day future past all in the

561
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:32.700
one episode.

562
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.839
So you get that business out of the way in an episode, and then

563
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:41.460
you redo it again anyway. over the next few, but it encapsulates

564
00:28:41.460 --> 00:28:46.799
so much and you get to know that new character really quite well.

565
00:28:46.859 --> 00:28:47.940
Yeah, all that.

566
00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:50.039
And to visit Simon and Brian's doorstep.

567
00:28:50.099 --> 00:28:50.640
Yeah, exactly.

568
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:53.400
What, the vault?

569
00:28:54.180 --> 00:28:56.039
You said that.

570
00:28:56.099 --> 00:28:56.759
Not there.

571
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.740
Good grief.

572
00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:04.920
Smile.

573
00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:08.759
I'll start by saying, I think all the stuff outside is brilliant

574
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:10.019
wonderful location work.

575
00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:12.720
I just enjoy that so much in their exploration, the city.

576
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:15.359
Once they go into the door downstairs.

577
00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:17.940
I think it begins to fall apart and I really don't enjoy the last

578
00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:19.619
15 or 20 minutes.

579
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:22.980
For me, it's the weakest episode of the season, which I give it a

580
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:25.680
seven, but that's not bad.

581
00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:28.319
What did you think of the child actor given a lot of prominence?

582
00:29:28.500 --> 00:29:32.880
I thought he was terrible, but you know, that's my default

583
00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:33.420
setting.

584
00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:38.039
I both, you know, I think it's one of my favourite episodes of

585
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:40.019
season and totally agree with you on the structure.

586
00:29:40.079 --> 00:29:45.420
Like the, all of the business between Pearl and Peter is great.

587
00:29:45.539 --> 00:29:48.480
Like all of that, them getting to know each other.

588
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.539
How, you know, I think you made this point in the episode about

589
00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:56.039
she realises what his role is, like what he does, how he spends

590
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:59.160
his life and then she kind of goes, oh, I'm going to go and help

591
00:29:59.160 --> 00:30:01.859
him, even though he's running into danger.

592
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.920
Like all of all of that is fantastic.

593
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:08.759
But yes, as soon as you get to a, it's not a paper mill.

594
00:30:08.819 --> 00:30:10.319
Uskmith power station.

595
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:13.259
It's Ed Thomas's back room.

596
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:18.359
Yes, it's actually it is actually just his house, isn't it?

597
00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:21.900
Look, I don't think you can undersell the value of a great

598
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:22.319
location.

599
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.980
That episode has one of the greatest locations in Doctor Who.

600
00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:28.859
Yeah, visually it's stunning, isn't it?

601
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.759
And I do think that moment, like maybe the best moment in it is

602
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:37.319
the moment where Bill is left at the TARDIS door and the doctor

603
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:40.500
goes off in there to blow up the building.

604
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:44.519
And I just think that's absolutely brilliant just because it's a

605
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.599
big character moment for her learning who he is, but it's a

606
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:49.319
beautiful shot.

607
00:30:49.380 --> 00:30:51.839
Yeah, it's like cinematographic.

608
00:30:51.900 --> 00:30:52.380
Yeah, yeah.

609
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.279
Yeah, the him sort of running across the field.

610
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.660
Yeah, yeah, like Teresa May.

611
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.380
All right, thin ice.

612
00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.799
Maybe the best episode of the season.

613
00:31:07.859 --> 00:31:12.900
It looks incredibly good, and it's just beautifully written by

614
00:31:12.900 --> 00:31:13.980
Sarah Dollard.

615
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:18.480
And one of the reasons I think that, um, one of the problems with

616
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.220
smile is that what it does introducing the 2 characters to one

617
00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:25.500
another is done a lot better here.

618
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:30.059
And I think that confrontation between Pearl and Peter about how

619
00:31:30.059 --> 00:31:33.480
many people have you killed is one of the high points of the

620
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:33.779
season.

621
00:31:33.839 --> 00:31:36.359
It's beautiful, it's funny.

622
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:40.980
It's just incredibly well done, and it should be more highly

623
00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:41.819
regarded than it is.

624
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:44.940
And they've gotten so good at putting their money on the screen.

625
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.559
This entire season looks absolutely amazing and was made for less

626
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.740
money than the season following, which I don't think looks as

627
00:31:52.740 --> 00:31:53.039
good.

628
00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:57.539
Also, thin ice, 2nd best example of a companion encountering an

629
00:31:57.539 --> 00:31:58.980
elephant in Doctor Who history.

630
00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:04.140
I think it's slightly less good than the other time.

631
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.420
And we'll let you discover that, listeners, if you don't know what

632
00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:11.880
that is if you go back and watch the classic series.

633
00:32:11.940 --> 00:32:16.200
We had a great discussion on the episode and I walked away from

634
00:32:16.200 --> 00:32:21.420
that, loving it even more, and I do think it is along with the

635
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:27.119
pilot and Empress of Mars, like those 3 other than the finale of

636
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:30.059
the 3 that I really gravitate towards this season.

637
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.579
So yeah, no, it's great.

638
00:32:32.640 --> 00:32:34.259
Any thoughts, James?

639
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.319
Look, I would agree with you on that.

640
00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.859
I think coming back to the, them getting to know each other point

641
00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:45.960
each time, it's a different slant on, on that sort of, there's

642
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.740
like the unpeeling layers of, of their friendship and discovering

643
00:32:49.740 --> 00:32:51.240
something new about each other each week.

644
00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:54.779
And Capaldi gets to punch a fascist in the page.

645
00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:57.059
It's brilliant.

646
00:32:57.119 --> 00:32:58.319
Knock knock.

647
00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.119
Oh, it's really fun.

648
00:33:00.180 --> 00:33:00.839
Knock knock.

649
00:33:00.900 --> 00:33:04.079
I really like the group of characters that are whipped up around

650
00:33:04.079 --> 00:33:08.339
Bill, including the one of those companions we never had in little

651
00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:11.759
Harry. speaking of which, Peter?

652
00:33:11.819 --> 00:33:13.200
Snog Marrier Void.

653
00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:15.119
Harry Paul Pavel.

654
00:33:15.180 --> 00:33:16.079
Okay.

655
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:20.220
I think I would give Harry a little snog, just because if nothing

656
00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:22.200
else, because he's Harry Sullivan's grandson.

657
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:22.980
Yeah, he's cute.

658
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:23.460
He's sweet.

659
00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:26.279
The other 2 are completely interchangeable in my memory.

660
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.400
Pavel likes to play his music quite loud, so I think I'd avoid

661
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:29.640
him.

662
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:33.599
And the other one, he's very tall and Scottish. very tall.

663
00:33:33.660 --> 00:33:35.279
Yeah, I don't want to marry that.

664
00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:36.900
Yeah, I'll take the 5th on that.

665
00:33:38.700 --> 00:33:40.859
Back to knock knock.

666
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:42.960
I really enjoy knock knock a lot.

667
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:44.819
And I love that group of characters.

668
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:45.779
I love the whole setting.

669
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:51.779
I think David Suchet is wonderfully menacing and as you discussed

670
00:33:51.779 --> 00:33:54.900
that old school of acting coming into the show.

671
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:56.400
Lovely classic series performance.

672
00:33:56.460 --> 00:34:00.420
That's right Like with the ending, everybody has to live.

673
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.059
I think that's an unfortunate thing in terms of the ubiquitousness

674
00:34:06.059 --> 00:34:10.019
of media and social media these days is that if all of them died

675
00:34:10.019 --> 00:34:12.960
that would then have links to so many people and so many

676
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:16.619
investigations as opposed to what happens back in the 1960s and

677
00:34:16.619 --> 00:34:20.099
70s where if 2 campers get killed, it can be explained away.

678
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.880
And so I think, as you discussed, you know, if all these people

679
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:27.239
died, Bill would not travel with the doctor, they had to have a

680
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.320
get out of jail free card.

681
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:30.659
So I'm getting for what you're saying, that knock knock would have

682
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:31.619
been better with Ogri.

683
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:35.519
Anything's better with...

684
00:34:35.579 --> 00:34:39.300
But what I'm saying is that the ending of it was a necessity and

685
00:34:39.300 --> 00:34:42.900
that ending, you know, you kind of think, oh, can you kill off a

686
00:34:42.900 --> 00:34:43.619
few, can you not?

687
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:46.380
You know, at the end, you're just going to think, oh, that's the

688
00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:47.159
way it has to be.

689
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:54.119
I also found the kind of some pretty heroic latex acting from the

690
00:34:54.119 --> 00:34:57.420
mother and just some fairly ridiculous scenes.

691
00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:00.599
It's one of those moments where I just imagine my mother walking

692
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:03.480
in and looking at the screen and going, what the hell are you

693
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:03.780
watching?

694
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:06.659
Would you then have turned around her and said, I'm so sorry that

695
00:35:06.659 --> 00:35:08.039
I couldn't have saved you all this?

696
00:35:08.159 --> 00:35:10.380
There are wood lice in the walls.

697
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.940
I mean, it's that's a stupid scene, and like, I just think it's a

698
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:16.739
bit overwrought and embarrassing, really.

699
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.380
So it's the resolution that I think is dumb.

700
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:20.639
Everything else, I think is really great.

701
00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:21.599
Thank you.

702
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:22.440
I was trying to say.

703
00:35:22.860 --> 00:35:26.039
I hated knock knock when I 1st saw a series here.

704
00:35:26.099 --> 00:35:27.059
I thought was the weakest thing.

705
00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:29.460
I'd ever watched. rewatching it.

706
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.900
I thought it was gorgeous.

707
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:38.340
It was just this sort of small story about this sad little boy who

708
00:35:38.340 --> 00:35:40.559
lost his mother basically.

709
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:46.320
And I think maybe, yeah, maybe I had the Todd experience.

710
00:35:46.380 --> 00:35:49.980
It was a revelation when I watched it back this time.

711
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.260
I had only ever watched it once, I think.

712
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.719
Maybe I just was having an off week.

713
00:35:54.780 --> 00:35:57.900
Lots more Greek 40 business as well.

714
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.099
He's really funny in that episode.

715
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:00.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

716
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.000
More eating, more inappropriate eating, which is pretty great.

717
00:36:03.059 --> 00:36:08.400
The music references as well and yeah, he just does that offbeat

718
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:10.019
comedy sort of things so well.

719
00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:11.699
I mean, if that's one thing from this season.

720
00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.719
It's all those little quirky moments with him that I just enjoy so

721
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:15.960
much.

722
00:36:16.019 --> 00:36:18.719
I bet if we dive into your phone, we'll find a bit of little mix

723
00:36:18.719 --> 00:36:19.199
in there.

724
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.260
No, you won't.

725
00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:27.000
I'm stuck Well, in the past, a bit more the Reynolds girls.

726
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:28.380
Jesus.

727
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:29.340
Stop it.

728
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.480
All right.

729
00:36:30.539 --> 00:36:34.440
On that note, let's get some oxygen, the next episode.

730
00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:36.119
Fantastic.

731
00:36:36.179 --> 00:36:37.199
Oxygen.

732
00:36:37.260 --> 00:36:37.860
Really good.

733
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:41.460
I know that we were slightly mixed on it in our episode.

734
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:45.300
There was a few mixed opinions there, but I think it's an exercise

735
00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:48.420
in atmosphere, which is really great.

736
00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:51.840
I agree with you. an exercise in atmosphere.

737
00:36:51.900 --> 00:36:54.659
But even this time through like the 1st time through, I didn't

738
00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:56.099
love it to death.

739
00:36:56.159 --> 00:36:59.820
Like, I just, Jamie's done some brilliant episodes, which I

740
00:36:59.820 --> 00:37:03.840
absolutely adore, and this almost gets there, but for some reason

741
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:09.239
it just doesn't have that element that makes it, like, zing right

742
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:09.960
at the top down.

743
00:37:10.019 --> 00:37:10.980
I don't know why that is.

744
00:37:10.980 --> 00:37:12.000
I don't know.

745
00:37:12.059 --> 00:37:15.059
It's got a couple of wonderful set piece moments, like the walking

746
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:19.679
on the hull from Bill's point of view, and also the fact that it

747
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.940
makes the doctor blind.

748
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:24.420
I think if that had just been contained to this episode, it would

749
00:37:24.420 --> 00:37:25.619
have been shrug and forget it.

750
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:28.019
But the fact that it has repercussions through the following 2

751
00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:31.500
episodes makes it a really important event in the doctor's

752
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:32.940
fictional life and I like it.

753
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:34.739
No, I think that's really good.

754
00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:36.420
I mean, I easily give it an 8 out of 10.

755
00:37:36.599 --> 00:37:40.380
I'm just not saying, for me, it's hitting that 9 mark, which, for

756
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:41.519
me, it's like top 10.

757
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:46.739
Oxygen does something I really love in Doctor Who, and it's the

758
00:37:46.739 --> 00:37:53.579
critique of capitalism, of society, of human failing, like human

759
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:54.539
greed.

760
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:57.360
And I love the fact that it hits you in the face with it.

761
00:37:57.420 --> 00:38:00.960
It's not allegory in a lot of ways.

762
00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:03.780
Doctor Who usually does this sort of stuff as allegory.

763
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.239
It's just like capitalism destroys our humanity.

764
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:10.139
For that reason, I think it's probably, in my opinion, one of the

765
00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:12.960
stronger episodes because of its point of view.

766
00:38:13.019 --> 00:38:17.099
I think that thin ice is saying the same thing because you're

767
00:38:17.099 --> 00:38:21.239
essentially, you know, feeding children to a giant sea monster

768
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:26.400
that, you know, poos out fuel and then selling it on the market.

769
00:38:26.460 --> 00:38:29.340
So it's doing a sort of capitalism, something that also isn't an

770
00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:30.780
algory, although it kind of is.

771
00:38:30.840 --> 00:38:32.460
But I think it does it better.

772
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:36.420
My problem, I was the source of the mixed opinions on oxygen.

773
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:41.340
I don't think that it satisfactorily does what it sets out to do.

774
00:38:41.400 --> 00:38:47.639
It's supposed to be, let's see how scary space is, but as I said

775
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:51.300
on the episode, it doesn't actually manage to achieve a version of

776
00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:55.139
space that's any different from things like Impossible Planet or

777
00:38:55.139 --> 00:38:58.739
what we've been doing for ages and ages.

778
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:03.000
And so, I think that it doesn't quite work for that reason, and

779
00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:07.380
it's a little bit kind of lacking in character and incident, I

780
00:39:07.380 --> 00:39:07.679
think.

781
00:39:07.739 --> 00:39:11.519
It does atmosphere, but the characters are pretty rudimentary and

782
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.699
it is just, you know, we walk away from zombies and then some

783
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.920
other zombies come and we walk away from them, you know.

784
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:21.300
But it is good to see the dynamic between Bill and Nadol and the

785
00:39:21.300 --> 00:39:24.659
doctor sort of forming properly here so we can then carry that

786
00:39:24.659 --> 00:39:27.900
through the next trilogy of episodes through to the end of the

787
00:39:27.900 --> 00:39:28.079
season.

788
00:39:28.139 --> 00:39:31.320
It carries definitely into extremists where I think the scenes

789
00:39:31.320 --> 00:39:35.460
between Bill and Nadol are really good and set them set them up as

790
00:39:35.460 --> 00:39:38.280
one of the great companion double acts of all time.

791
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:40.380
I really love their dynamic.

792
00:39:40.440 --> 00:39:44.699
I think that I like Bill Leonardo better together than Bill and

793
00:39:44.699 --> 00:39:45.960
the doctor and not all of the doctor.

794
00:39:46.019 --> 00:39:48.179
Yeah, it's fun, isn't it?

795
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:51.300
Because he's kind of dismissive of her and a little bit kind of

796
00:39:51.300 --> 00:39:52.860
hostile to her initially.

797
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:55.440
And then they do their 1st big adventure together.

798
00:39:55.500 --> 00:39:59.219
And I think that is one of the great features of oxygen is that it

799
00:39:59.219 --> 00:40:01.199
makes that happen properly for the 1st time.

800
00:40:01.260 --> 00:40:03.960
So that scene extremists when they're walking down the corridor

801
00:40:03.960 --> 00:40:06.599
together and she's like, you're kind of a badass, aren't you?

802
00:40:06.659 --> 00:40:07.199
awesome.

803
00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.239
Well, let's talk about extremists then.

804
00:40:09.300 --> 00:40:11.760
I think it's the strongest of the trilogy, like a certainly would

805
00:40:11.760 --> 00:40:14.099
be giving it business, 8.5 .

806
00:40:14.219 --> 00:40:18.719
None of that trilogy quite gets there for me in terms of 910 or

807
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:19.079
whatever.

808
00:40:19.139 --> 00:40:23.820
But I really like the atmosphere down where the veritas is and all

809
00:40:23.820 --> 00:40:24.780
of that in the episode.

810
00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:28.440
And the fact that the doctor is blind in that ongoing plot, I

811
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:29.820
really think it's a really strong episode.

812
00:40:29.940 --> 00:40:32.039
I think it's the 2nd best story of the season.

813
00:40:32.159 --> 00:40:33.599
I love the atmosphere.

814
00:40:33.659 --> 00:40:37.920
I thought who knew that Doctor Who meeting Dan Brown would be so

815
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:38.820
successful.

816
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:43.559
It's also, I think, the start of the best three-part story since

817
00:40:43.559 --> 00:40:44.699
Delta and the Bannerman, maybe.

818
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:47.760
No, I take that.

819
00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:49.440
I take that back.

820
00:40:49.500 --> 00:40:51.780
I think it's a really, really strong episode.

821
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:55.199
I think it's heavy on atmosphere and I really love the fact that

822
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:58.679
even though it's nothing very new from Moffat, I think it's a real

823
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:00.780
encapsulation of everything that he does well.

824
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.659
I just, I can't quite put my finger up, I really like that

825
00:41:03.659 --> 00:41:03.960
episode.

826
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:07.980
And also the fact that Missy is so heavily involved in that

827
00:41:07.980 --> 00:41:08.820
episode too.

828
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:11.639
I think that is also another real strength for it, which is why I

829
00:41:11.639 --> 00:41:15.300
think, yeah, sort of lifts at this point in the season.

830
00:41:16.019 --> 00:41:19.199
I really enjoy the Monk trilogy.

831
00:41:19.260 --> 00:41:24.119
I would probably say the next episode is stronger for me.

832
00:41:24.179 --> 00:41:29.280
But I do love all the business in extremists and the concepts.

833
00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:34.079
I think the thing I love about this trilogy of stories is the

834
00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:38.280
concepts that are interwoven through it, and they're all kind of

835
00:41:38.280 --> 00:41:41.099
related to each other, but they're all roofing on it in a

836
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:41.460
different way.

837
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:43.500
I would agree with James.

838
00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:47.699
I think that the pyramid at the end of the world edges this one

839
00:41:47.699 --> 00:41:51.780
out for me, although I think that the atmosphere is absolutely

840
00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:52.380
there.

841
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.260
The introduction of the monks works really well, the gag with the

842
00:41:55.260 --> 00:41:59.159
pope turning up and ruining your date is absolutely brilliant.

843
00:41:59.219 --> 00:42:01.320
Only before he gets sent off to that forced labour camp.

844
00:42:04.380 --> 00:42:07.019
I think it is really fun.

845
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:12.119
I would give an extra whole point out of 10. for that shot where

846
00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:16.920
we go down under the table in the CERN cafeteria to see all of

847
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:17.820
that.

848
00:42:17.880 --> 00:42:19.139
Fenrich shot.

849
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:21.840
It's so good.

850
00:42:21.900 --> 00:42:25.199
Who'd have thought that cribbing from Nick Mallet would make an

851
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:26.159
episode better.

852
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:30.900
See, Pyramid at the end of the world for me is just slightly below

853
00:42:30.900 --> 00:42:34.139
this at an 8 and I think it's a really strong episode.

854
00:42:34.199 --> 00:42:35.159
I think Erica's great.

855
00:42:35.219 --> 00:42:37.199
Yeah, needs an extra point just for Erica.

856
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:38.039
Yeah, yeah.

857
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:41.699
And that whole parallel stuff happening and what you think is

858
00:42:41.699 --> 00:42:44.159
going to be the end of the world isn't the end of the world.

859
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:48.000
It's, you know, the doctor's blindness and Bill wanting to save

860
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:49.019
him.

861
00:42:49.079 --> 00:42:51.480
And certainly an episode I came back to thinking, oh, is this

862
00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:52.260
going to be any good?

863
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:54.000
And I thought it was good.

864
00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:55.260
I thought it was solid, right?

865
00:42:55.380 --> 00:42:59.579
But I just, you know, the doctor is president and is that in this

866
00:42:59.579 --> 00:43:00.539
at much?

867
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.960
Not really, but yes, that's why they come and get him.

868
00:43:04.019 --> 00:43:08.639
I guess the thing is, we're in made up Stan again and I don't

869
00:43:08.639 --> 00:43:12.239
think I liked having made up a stand the 1st time around.

870
00:43:12.300 --> 00:43:14.460
That was a bit of a, you know, and they've come back to it, and

871
00:43:14.460 --> 00:43:14.880
that's fine.

872
00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:19.739
And it seems to have shifted somewhat around the planet since the

873
00:43:19.739 --> 00:43:20.219
last time we saw it.

874
00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:21.780
Well, of course it has. made up.

875
00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:27.059
It's just a, it's actually, it's the island equivalent of the

876
00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:30.360
Daleks hollowing the core out of the earth and travelling around

877
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:31.320
the galaxy.

878
00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:34.500
Look, Pyramids and Doctor Who, you can't go wrong, I think.

879
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:38.460
This again, like so many episodes this season is a bit of a mood

880
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.000
piece.

881
00:43:39.059 --> 00:43:41.579
It's structured a little bit weirdly for a dog 2 episode.

882
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:45.000
It doesn't quite build in the way that a doctor 2 episode usually

883
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:46.860
does, but I really like it.

884
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:50.880
I think if the 3rd episode of the trilogy had kept up the quality

885
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:51.840
of the 1st two.

886
00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:54.360
We'd be talking about a classic set of stories.

887
00:43:54.539 --> 00:44:00.059
I think that what it does is it's incredibly well plotted and that

888
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:01.260
a lot of things happen.

889
00:44:01.320 --> 00:44:04.139
We're coming towards the back end of the season where there's a

890
00:44:04.139 --> 00:44:07.920
couple of mood pieces, which don't really have a great deal going

891
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:10.500
on, and I think maybe oxygen was that as well.

892
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:15.119
Whereas this is quite interestingly plotted, I think.

893
00:44:15.179 --> 00:44:20.219
And I think the ending of it, and sadly, I can no longer remember

894
00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:24.420
how I felt about it, but it looks like the doctor has won.

895
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:28.260
He's definitely won and the monks are disappointed and the clock

896
00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:30.239
goes back. can you tell from their faces?

897
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:32.940
Yeah, yeah, no, they're all looking at their phones and they're

898
00:44:32.940 --> 00:44:33.780
coming across and stuff.

899
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.800
It's a whole thing.

900
00:44:35.099 --> 00:44:42.420
And then Bill goes to the monks to get the doctor's site back so

901
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:43.320
he can be saved.

902
00:44:43.380 --> 00:44:45.059
And it's such a surprise.

903
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:48.300
It's such a surprising ending and it's kind of like, oh, so we're

904
00:44:48.300 --> 00:44:49.920
going to have the monks for another week now.

905
00:44:49.980 --> 00:44:52.739
And I wish I could remember how I felt about that at the time

906
00:44:52.739 --> 00:44:54.599
because I reckon it's a pretty great ending.

907
00:44:54.659 --> 00:44:58.320
And in common with so many episodes of this season, some great

908
00:44:58.320 --> 00:44:59.579
imagery.

909
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:03.360
So that scene where the fighter jet is coming in and then the

910
00:45:03.360 --> 00:45:05.039
pilots are just replaced by me.

911
00:45:05.159 --> 00:45:05.820
So good.

912
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:06.780
Yeah, it's so good.

913
00:45:06.840 --> 00:45:07.679
It's so unsettling.

914
00:45:07.739 --> 00:45:08.639
Yeah, yeah.

915
00:45:08.699 --> 00:45:12.719
Did we know coming into this that there was going to be a trilogy

916
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:14.940
of stories around the monks?

917
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:15.719
I don't think so.

918
00:45:15.719 --> 00:45:17.039
Had it been publicised that way?

919
00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:20.099
I think it was kind of known on, you know, outpost galafrey.

920
00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:23.639
We do actually talk about it at the time in those 3 episodes for

921
00:45:23.639 --> 00:45:24.420
FTA.

922
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:26.099
We can't quite remember.

923
00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:30.719
So I think probably for most people at home, they're going to be

924
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:31.860
surprised by that ending.

925
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:33.300
I just can't remember if I was.

926
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:34.679
Yeah.

927
00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:37.559
So the lie of the land wraps up this trilogy.

928
00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:42.300
It is the least satisfying of the episodes for me, but it still

929
00:45:42.300 --> 00:45:43.199
gets a 7.5 .

930
00:45:43.260 --> 00:45:46.199
I still think there's a lot in there that I really do like, but

931
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:50.519
the unforgivable thing that I struggle to get over is the fake out

932
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:54.719
regeneration, which is done for effect and we're going to, I just

933
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.360
kind of went, oh, problematic scene on so many levels.

934
00:45:57.420 --> 00:46:01.019
Yeah, I mean, doing things for effect is okay because it's TV.

935
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:06.480
But what for me ruins that scene is how cavalier everyone is once

936
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:08.699
the reveal happens.

937
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:13.739
And in our episode, I contrasted it with Cursor Fenrik, where the

938
00:46:13.739 --> 00:46:19.860
doctor destroys Ace's faith in him in order to do a space thing

939
00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:24.900
and then is visibly distressed at what he's had to do to her.

940
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:26.820
Whereas here we all laugh.

941
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:28.860
You know, she's surrounded by...

942
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:29.699
It's really neat.

943
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.519
So it's the wrong emotions.

944
00:46:32.579 --> 00:46:33.000
Yeah.

945
00:46:33.059 --> 00:46:36.059
I think the other thing too is it's just absolutely full of

946
00:46:36.059 --> 00:46:40.380
voiceovers and we're constantly just being told what's happening

947
00:46:40.380 --> 00:46:42.119
rather than shown.

948
00:46:42.179 --> 00:46:44.760
I also don't over-promise and undersell.

949
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:48.239
The idea of this kind of parallel future, if you want, where the

950
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:51.000
monks are in charge, and you know, the invasion's happened, and

951
00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:54.000
it's this Orwellian version of Earth.

952
00:46:54.059 --> 00:46:55.380
It's such a great setup.

953
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:57.960
How can you not do anything with it in the episode?

954
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:02.340
Yeah, in a way, and this would never happen the modern era, but in

955
00:47:02.340 --> 00:47:05.760
a way, maybe this episode would have been a great four parter in

956
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:10.800
the classic era, where you really dig into this dystopian future

957
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:12.119
and investigate it.

958
00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:15.480
Maybe the monk should have taken over at the end of extremists.

959
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:21.780
So I have been on record saying the, this is not a good episode

960
00:47:21.780 --> 00:47:24.119
what we really needed was twice as much of it.

961
00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:26.639
But I get what you mean.

962
00:47:26.699 --> 00:47:29.579
Like, that it's actually a shame in the classic series that we

963
00:47:29.579 --> 00:47:31.199
never had anything quite like that.

964
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:36.119
Perhaps the closest that we come to are those parallel universe

965
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:37.920
scenes in Inferno.

966
00:47:37.980 --> 00:47:39.840
The best story of seasons in seven.

967
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:40.619
As you know, Nathan.

968
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:43.139
Yes, the least successful story of season seven.

969
00:47:43.739 --> 00:47:47.280
The thing that makes me really uncomfortable coming back to the

970
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.980
scene, the revelations scene.

971
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:51.360
I mean, it doesn't work in a lot of ways.

972
00:47:51.420 --> 00:47:53.099
Why is he regenerating?

973
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:54.480
She doesn't know about regeneration.

974
00:47:54.539 --> 00:47:57.840
So what's the point of that apart from to put in the trailer?

975
00:47:58.079 --> 00:48:03.599
is that it's a group of men laughing at a queer woman.

976
00:48:03.599 --> 00:48:05.039
That's not deliberate.

977
00:48:05.099 --> 00:48:06.179
It's not.

978
00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:07.739
And you know, if it was a good scene, you wouldn't care about

979
00:48:07.739 --> 00:48:10.440
those optics, but it's also a bad scene, which makes it even

980
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:10.679
worse.

981
00:48:10.739 --> 00:48:14.639
Yeah, obviously it's not deliberate, but the optics of it.

982
00:48:14.699 --> 00:48:20.340
Because it's bad, just sort of glare in your face. and it's just

983
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:24.360
it's probably the thing that takes me out of enjoyment of the

984
00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:24.539
episode.

985
00:48:24.599 --> 00:48:27.539
I do, however, like Capaldi's coat very much.

986
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:30.000
It looks very good sizzling up with regeneration energy.

987
00:48:43.860 --> 00:48:48.539
All right, the Empress of Mars, Nathan, Snog, marry, avoid.

988
00:48:48.599 --> 00:48:52.139
Catch love, God's Acre, Friday.

989
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:54.599
You'd have to shag someone called Catch Love, sure.

990
00:48:55.980 --> 00:48:59.039
Catch Love is just beautiful.

991
00:48:59.099 --> 00:49:01.079
Like he's so pretty.

992
00:49:01.139 --> 00:49:02.280
Holy crap.

993
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:06.360
So I think I'll marry him so that I can look at him all the time

994
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:09.659
as well as whatever else that entails.

995
00:49:10.079 --> 00:49:12.059
God's acre.

996
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:14.760
God's acre is he's a bit rough, isn't he?

997
00:49:14.820 --> 00:49:16.559
He's a little bit kind of rougher.

998
00:49:16.619 --> 00:49:19.860
I would probably...

999
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:24.599
Well, see, now I'm starting to rethink because again, if I wanted

1000
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:29.699
to marry Mr. Razor because he'll bring me tea, Friday does that, he

1001
00:49:29.699 --> 00:49:34.440
does bring tea for the officers, he does seem to be very obedient

1002
00:49:34.440 --> 00:49:36.659
uh, which...

1003
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:37.920
Yeah, except when he's not.

1004
00:49:37.980 --> 00:49:42.659
So maybe I'm avoiding him, I'm having a quick fling with God's

1005
00:49:42.659 --> 00:49:46.260
Acre and I'm marrying Catchlove, even though apparently he would

1006
00:49:46.260 --> 00:49:47.280
treat me very badly.

1007
00:49:47.340 --> 00:49:49.980
Yeah, that's a collection of words I never thought I'd do.

1008
00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:52.500
Well, I'd agree with you.

1009
00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:54.480
I don't want to see Friday out of his suit.

1010
00:49:54.539 --> 00:49:55.440
No.

1011
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:58.019
That's right.

1012
00:49:58.079 --> 00:49:59.340
Upsetting wedding night.

1013
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:03.840
Interesting how they never really show that again after Cold War.

1014
00:50:03.900 --> 00:50:04.260
No.

1015
00:50:04.260 --> 00:50:05.699
For good reason.

1016
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:07.260
Look, I really enjoy that episode.

1017
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:11.280
I love the fact that there's so much time for Bill and the doctor

1018
00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:14.519
not to say, like, I didn't want Nardo to be in it, but obviously

1019
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:16.800
now that I miss you come in at the end, but I just like the fact

1020
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:20.519
there's a big chunk there that's just them after 4 weeks of the

1021
00:50:20.519 --> 00:50:24.239
team, and it's nice to have that before we head off to the finale

1022
00:50:24.239 --> 00:50:27.239
and I, and I really think it's a very underrated episode.

1023
00:50:27.300 --> 00:50:28.559
It's really enjoyable.

1024
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:32.460
Mark Gator brings a thing to the series that nobody else does

1025
00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:35.460
which is this kind of reverence for the way that classic Doctor

1026
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.500
Who told stories.

1027
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.820
And even though I don't think any of his episodes quite scale the

1028
00:50:41.820 --> 00:50:42.420
heights.

1029
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:45.539
All of them are perfectly acceptable and a lot of fun.

1030
00:50:45.659 --> 00:50:49.019
I think this is in his wheelhouse and it's the better because of

1031
00:50:49.019 --> 00:50:49.199
that.

1032
00:50:49.260 --> 00:50:51.119
Yeah, it's Ice Warriors in cave sets.

1033
00:50:51.179 --> 00:50:53.699
I mean it's weird. absolutely the thing we did in the 70s.

1034
00:50:53.820 --> 00:50:54.300
Yeah.

1035
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:55.860
And Victoriana.

1036
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.199
Yeah, yeah, yeah. it's perfect I think it's really fun.

1037
00:50:58.260 --> 00:50:59.159
Just properly fun.

1038
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:04.079
Is Cosapeladon the last time we had Ice Warriors in cave sets and

1039
00:51:04.079 --> 00:51:05.099
a mention of Queen Victoria?

1040
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:06.539
Maybe.

1041
00:51:07.380 --> 00:51:09.599
Your memory's better than mine.

1042
00:51:10.380 --> 00:51:12.659
The eaters of light.

1043
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:13.679
Not the mood piece.

1044
00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:15.900
Yeah, I think it's really beautiful, actually.

1045
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:19.860
Like, it's just sort of strange and weird and interesting, and

1046
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:24.119
it's a little bit kind of low key and a little bit sombre.

1047
00:51:24.179 --> 00:51:29.340
It's like an era coming to a close and given that she's done that

1048
00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:34.019
before, you know, Ronan Monroe kind of does a good job of that.

1049
00:51:34.079 --> 00:51:36.539
It's by a proper writer.

1050
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:40.800
It does some stuff with children's literature, which is what

1051
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:42.360
survival did as well.

1052
00:51:42.420 --> 00:51:43.739
I think it's really good.

1053
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:45.840
Like, I think it's overlooked.

1054
00:51:45.900 --> 00:51:47.940
Not many people even think about it.

1055
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:51.420
Um, but I do think it's nice.

1056
00:51:51.480 --> 00:51:52.980
I'm glad that Doctor Who did it.

1057
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:56.880
And I'm also glad to see Ronan Monroe come back after like 27

1058
00:51:56.880 --> 00:52:00.659
years come back to the program now that she is a successful and

1059
00:52:00.659 --> 00:52:05.400
well-known playwright, someone kind of out of our league, who is

1060
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.219
sort of slumming it with us for a week.

1061
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:09.059
Yeah.

1062
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:12.900
I always say the worst crime Doctor Who can commit as being

1063
00:52:12.900 --> 00:52:13.559
boring.

1064
00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:16.559
And I do think the eaters of light is a little bit dull in

1065
00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:17.039
places.

1066
00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:20.880
But having said that, I think there's so much to it, and it is

1067
00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:23.280
about something that I can't bring myself to dislike it.

1068
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:28.320
I was going to ask, what you prefer, it is right or survival.

1069
00:52:28.500 --> 00:52:30.119
Survival.

1070
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:35.639
It's hard because the nostalgia factor in what it meant to our

1071
00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:36.539
childhoods.

1072
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:41.460
I think in context, survival is more of a departure.

1073
00:52:41.519 --> 00:52:44.639
Like it's more different from anything that's ever happened on the

1074
00:52:44.639 --> 00:52:48.420
show before, and it's amazing to have the show go out, doing

1075
00:52:48.420 --> 00:52:51.719
something that it's never done before, and doing something that it

1076
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:54.480
should perhaps always have been doing, and when the show comes

1077
00:52:54.480 --> 00:52:56.579
back, that's kind of what it does.

1078
00:52:56.639 --> 00:52:59.639
Yeah, it's kind of the template in a lot of ways.

1079
00:52:59.699 --> 00:53:03.000
It's so very Doctor Who, the fact that Doctor Who's last classic

1080
00:53:03.000 --> 00:53:07.440
story of the 20th century paves the way for what comes.

1081
00:53:07.500 --> 00:53:08.760
It's not a closure for the series.

1082
00:53:08.820 --> 00:53:11.699
It's also looking to the future of what it was. in the direction

1083
00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:12.420
that it would go.

1084
00:53:12.480 --> 00:53:14.219
Well, on this episode.

1085
00:53:14.280 --> 00:53:18.900
I had the Todd experience, my own experience because the 1st time

1086
00:53:18.900 --> 00:53:22.679
watching this season, this was the episode I did not like at all

1087
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:23.340
well, not like at all.

1088
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:26.579
I just found it really disappointing and I was putting it in

1089
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:29.699
negative territory like the worst of the previous season and

1090
00:53:29.699 --> 00:53:34.800
whatever that other fake bush one was in season eight.

1091
00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:36.719
Forest of the Mountain.

1092
00:53:36.780 --> 00:53:37.800
Thank you the 1st of the night.

1093
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:41.400
Well, you know, you know, Schum Bush, how it just disappears?

1094
00:53:41.460 --> 00:53:45.780
That would be a great Kate Bush drag queen name.

1095
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:47.519
It might well be.

1096
00:53:47.579 --> 00:53:50.039
I thoroughly enjoyed it.

1097
00:53:50.099 --> 00:53:55.079
I think there's so many lovely moments for Bill Fernando, for the

1098
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:55.500
doctor.

1099
00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:59.820
I think it's actually a lovely moment before the finale and, and

1100
00:53:59.820 --> 00:54:04.320
um, yeah, what I once gave 6 out of 10 to A's and Egybate.

1101
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:07.980
Like, again, quite a moment, but a good one.

1102
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:12.599
I also had the Todd experience because at the time I was quite

1103
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:16.500
disappointed in this story because I love survival.

1104
00:54:16.619 --> 00:54:22.320
I was sort of eight, 9 when the show ended in the 80s and

1105
00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:28.019
Sylvester was my daughter because because I was just at that age

1106
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:29.460
where it kind of grabs you.

1107
00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:33.360
I mean, I've been watching it since I was 3 or 4 on my father's

1108
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:33.719
knee.

1109
00:54:33.780 --> 00:54:36.960
My 1st Doctor Who story with 5 doctors.

1110
00:54:37.019 --> 00:54:42.900
And because I expected so much of it, I was really quite

1111
00:54:42.900 --> 00:54:48.480
underwhelmed, but rewatching it, I was pleasantly surprised that

1112
00:54:48.480 --> 00:54:54.300
there's a lot of really quite touching moments between both the

1113
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:59.099
regulars and the characters unique to the episode, which is really

1114
00:54:59.099 --> 00:55:00.780
quite beautiful.

1115
00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:04.440
I wish they'd been a little bit more to it, but having said that, I

1116
00:55:04.440 --> 00:55:05.519
think what's there is enough.

1117
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:08.760
Yeah, I think I agree with you, James.

1118
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:10.320
Like, I had high expectations.

1119
00:55:10.380 --> 00:55:13.019
The 1st time I watched it based on what she delivered with

1120
00:55:13.019 --> 00:55:14.880
survival and it didn't meet those expectations.

1121
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:17.400
Like I thought that's not delivering what I wanted.

1122
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:20.099
And so I was quite harsh on it.

1123
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:23.159
And then when you come back to things, you go, okay, that's where

1124
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:23.760
they're going.

1125
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:25.019
And I'm really pleased.

1126
00:55:25.139 --> 00:55:26.579
Should have just brought the cheetah people back.

1127
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:28.739
I makeup.

1128
00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:32.699
Like, there's a thing about the old series and the new series and

1129
00:55:32.699 --> 00:55:34.500
they're never, ever going to be comparable.

1130
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:40.380
When we watch the Eaters of Lies, we had been living with the

1131
00:55:40.380 --> 00:55:45.780
ideas and images and performances and all of that from survival

1132
00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:47.400
for 27 years.

1133
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:50.280
They were kind of part of us.

1134
00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:52.019
Yeah, yeah.

1135
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:58.739
And the Eders of Light hasn't had time, even now, to take that

1136
00:55:58.739 --> 00:55:59.340
position.

1137
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:04.500
And so, in a way, eaters of light and survival are not directly

1138
00:56:04.500 --> 00:56:05.340
comparable.

1139
00:56:05.400 --> 00:56:09.659
And I don't think it's meaningful to say that survival is better

1140
00:56:09.659 --> 00:56:11.699
than eaters of life.

1141
00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:12.420
They're so different.

1142
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:13.139
Yeah, exactly.

1143
00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:14.099
Fair enough.

1144
00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:18.300
Well, enough in time, and the doctor falls.

1145
00:56:18.360 --> 00:56:21.179
I'm just gonna throw it out. extraordinary.

1146
00:56:21.239 --> 00:56:22.440
Like absolutely amazing.

1147
00:56:22.500 --> 00:56:24.840
Top 5 of the new series.

1148
00:56:24.900 --> 00:56:28.320
Yeah, totally agree. out of this world.

1149
00:56:28.500 --> 00:56:31.199
And not at all, I think what we expected.

1150
00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:35.400
So we've had a missy plus the cybermen finale before.

1151
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:42.300
And as I said, this is Moffat saying, can we make the 10th planet

1152
00:56:42.300 --> 00:56:46.139
Cybermen work on television in 2017?

1153
00:56:46.199 --> 00:56:53.340
And like I do remember a time when we laughed at those cybermen.

1154
00:56:53.400 --> 00:56:57.960
The 10th planet cybermen, they're clearly a dead end when the show

1155
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:02.340
brings back the cybermen later that year, they're completely

1156
00:57:02.340 --> 00:57:04.739
redesigned so that they're not like that anymore.

1157
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:08.400
And we allowed real life to influence the imagery.

1158
00:57:08.460 --> 00:57:11.699
So they somehow got labelled as this cut price cheap version of

1159
00:57:11.699 --> 00:57:14.159
the side without looking at all the things that made them really

1160
00:57:14.159 --> 00:57:14.519
interesting.

1161
00:57:14.579 --> 00:57:15.360
Yeah.

1162
00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:19.139
And to me, that's why these episodes are so strong.

1163
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:23.099
It's taking something that was derided by the general public and

1164
00:57:23.099 --> 00:57:27.659
by fandom for a long time and taking all the elements that we

1165
00:57:27.659 --> 00:57:31.500
thought were pants, or at least stockings over the face.

1166
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:39.480
Um, and making those, the, the things that are so horrifying and

1167
00:57:39.480 --> 00:57:44.460
scary, which they always were intense by that, um, about this

1168
00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:47.760
version of the side and the, the slow erosion of someone's

1169
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:51.780
humanity and the, the turning off people's emotion, happening to

1170
00:57:51.780 --> 00:57:52.139
me right now.

1171
00:57:52.199 --> 00:57:55.079
You'll still be in pain, you just won't care.

1172
00:57:55.139 --> 00:58:00.780
Like, oh, like this, this is harrowing this story, but it's just

1173
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:01.920
beautiful.

1174
00:58:01.980 --> 00:58:05.400
Okay, how can you have a two-part story that is so different

1175
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:08.579
atmospherically and yet so successful.

1176
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:12.480
Both of the episodes work so beautifully well together, even while

1177
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:15.179
doing them off that thing of having slightly different 2nd part.

1178
00:58:15.300 --> 00:58:18.780
I actually think the Doctor Falls might be slightly better than

1179
00:58:18.780 --> 00:58:21.119
world enough in time, and that is really saying something.

1180
00:58:21.300 --> 00:58:25.139
I mean, it just introduces a new location, doesn't it?

1181
00:58:25.260 --> 00:58:26.639
Like, that's basically what happens.

1182
00:58:26.699 --> 00:58:29.760
We shift the focus to a new location, which is alluded to in the

1183
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:32.039
1st episode, but not properly visited.

1184
00:58:32.099 --> 00:58:35.159
And then we see the consequences.

1185
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:37.380
Like it's not much like the other one.

1186
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:39.420
It's a little bit like the monks trilogy.

1187
00:58:39.480 --> 00:58:44.159
It's like just sort of 2 stages of a particular event that are

1188
00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:47.760
quite different from one another and that each tell a pretty good

1189
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:49.260
story with a cliffhanger.

1190
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:54.599
I think that the cybermen are always kind of disappointing.

1191
00:58:54.719 --> 00:59:00.780
Like they're always a bit rubbish and they never really live up to

1192
00:59:00.780 --> 00:59:04.500
what we imagine them to be.

1193
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:09.179
And you can see Russell trying to make them scary again by having

1194
00:59:09.179 --> 00:59:12.420
those scenes where people are being marched into Battersea Power

1195
00:59:12.420 --> 00:59:13.500
Station and stuff like that.

1196
00:59:13.559 --> 00:59:17.519
And I think that that's a really underrated genesis of the

1197
00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:21.960
cybermen's story, but this just completely blows it out of the

1198
00:59:21.960 --> 00:59:22.380
water.

1199
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:23.820
It's so much better.

1200
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:27.719
Like just a better, more terrifying conception of of where the

1201
00:59:27.719 --> 00:59:31.800
cybermen come from and what they are, how inevitable they are

1202
00:59:31.860 --> 00:59:32.940
think it's just so good.

1203
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:37.440
I think we've been trained to think, with good reason, the dark

1204
00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.019
macabre doctor is always the best version.

1205
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.800
And so world and oftentime is really great because it's dripping

1206
00:59:43.800 --> 00:59:44.400
in atmosphere.

1207
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:47.579
It's got this immense foreboding to it all throughout.

1208
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:53.159
But then you changed that bucolic location in the Dr. Falls and

1209
00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:57.239
you strip away all of those atmospheric trappings and you're just

1210
00:59:57.239 --> 01:00:00.000
left with the drama of the situation and what's happening between

1211
01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:02.099
the characters and it's even better.

1212
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:06.780
I like the juxtaposition of the styles of these 2 episodes.

1213
01:00:06.840 --> 01:00:13.260
The 1st one is a kind of slow burn, psychological horror story.

1214
01:00:13.320 --> 01:00:19.320
And then the final episode is based on prestige, basically.

1215
01:00:19.380 --> 01:00:21.539
Cottage under siege.

1216
01:00:22.139 --> 01:00:27.300
It's also kind of a little bit of a remake of time of the doctor

1217
01:00:27.300 --> 01:00:33.119
as well, where the doctor stops and stays in order to save a bunch

1218
01:00:33.119 --> 01:00:38.940
of people who live in a kind of rural area and are under attack by

1219
01:00:38.940 --> 01:00:40.679
among other things, Cyberman.

1220
01:00:40.739 --> 01:00:42.840
Like I think time of the doctor is very good.

1221
01:00:42.900 --> 01:00:44.940
I think this is perhaps more successful than that.

1222
01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:48.780
I think the big shame is it's not the finale.

1223
01:00:48.840 --> 01:00:50.820
Like, it's not what Capoli goes out on.

1224
01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:53.699
We say during the episodes that this would have been an all-time

1225
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:55.079
great regeneration story.

1226
01:00:55.139 --> 01:00:57.360
And it still is just slightly delayed.

1227
01:00:57.480 --> 01:01:00.360
Well, look, we'll need twice upon a time to the whole

1228
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:03.480
retrospective, I know some of you're going to be discussing this

1229
01:01:03.480 --> 01:01:04.440
in a couple of weeks time.

1230
01:01:04.500 --> 01:01:05.579
I'm just going to say this.

1231
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:06.239
I have watched it.

1232
01:01:06.300 --> 01:01:07.619
I did like it.

1233
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:12.659
I think to get the warm farewells for the regulars, really

1234
01:01:12.659 --> 01:01:13.139
important.

1235
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:16.320
The use of the 1st doctor is not great.

1236
01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:19.920
And I think they missed a beat by not bringing back Carol Anne

1237
01:01:19.920 --> 01:01:22.199
Ford for one of those sequences with him.

1238
01:01:22.260 --> 01:01:27.300
And Rachel Talalay, who's usually my favourite director, Ben and

1239
01:01:27.300 --> 01:01:27.780
Polly.

1240
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:29.400
What was going on there?

1241
01:01:29.460 --> 01:01:31.679
Like, you know, did we just drag 2 people off the street and

1242
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:32.940
decide that's what we're going to go with?

1243
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:34.500
Hey, Ben was in Holyaks.

1244
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:37.980
But I'm just saying, I'm just saying like, yeah, there's some

1245
01:01:37.980 --> 01:01:40.920
takeaways for me, but obviously listeners, you've got that to

1246
01:01:40.920 --> 01:01:43.320
enjoy in a couple of weeks' time when the boys talk about, we call

1247
01:01:43.320 --> 01:01:46.079
him giant Ben because he's about 6 feet taller than Michael

1248
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:46.739
Grace.

1249
01:02:01.800 --> 01:02:04.380
Jane, snug, marry, avoid.

1250
01:02:04.860 --> 01:02:06.719
Heather, Eliza, Erika.

1251
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:09.300
I'd have to marry Heather.

1252
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:12.599
It would have to be a sexless marriage because I'm not a lesbian.

1253
01:02:12.659 --> 01:02:13.139
This lady?

1254
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:17.880
And she, she might bring me back to life in a 1000 years' time on

1255
01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:20.760
a mondace in cybership.

1256
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:24.360
Just be attracted by that little sparkling her eye.

1257
01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:25.800
I think I would...

1258
01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:29.820
Oh, no, I kind of also want to marry Erica because she's just so

1259
01:02:29.820 --> 01:02:30.239
fabulous.

1260
01:02:30.300 --> 01:02:30.719
Awesome.

1261
01:02:30.840 --> 01:02:32.760
No, you could marry both.

1262
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:35.460
Polyamory, probably Amory.

1263
01:02:35.519 --> 01:02:38.280
She'd let you in at nice if you got out the front and you couldn't

1264
01:02:38.280 --> 01:02:39.480
work out the alarm code.

1265
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:44.519
And who's the 3rd one?

1266
01:02:45.059 --> 01:02:45.659
Eliza.

1267
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:48.239
The mother in knock knock.

1268
01:02:49.320 --> 01:02:52.199
I think I would have to avoid Eliza.

1269
01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:56.340
She seems like a lovely woman, but I don't want lice.

1270
01:02:56.760 --> 01:02:58.920
I need a cream, yeah.

1271
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:01.679
Well done.

1272
01:03:01.739 --> 01:03:02.039
Thank you.

1273
01:03:02.099 --> 01:03:04.619
So, reflecting all of that.

1274
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:07.260
One to watch, one to avoid, one that's underrated.

1275
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:10.199
The one to watch, I think, is thin ice.

1276
01:03:10.260 --> 01:03:11.699
I think it's really amazingly good.

1277
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:15.179
I think the underrated one. is the 80s of light.

1278
01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:20.280
And there's none that I would really avoid, but maybe knock

1279
01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:20.820
knock.

1280
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:22.139
Peter?

1281
01:03:22.199 --> 01:03:22.860
Want to watch?

1282
01:03:22.920 --> 01:03:25.920
Absolutely the finale, one of the best Doctor Who stories that's

1283
01:03:25.920 --> 01:03:26.699
ever been told.

1284
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.820
The one that I think is underrated is extremists.

1285
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:32.159
I think it's quite highly rated, but I think it should be more

1286
01:03:32.159 --> 01:03:35.760
highly rated because it's so successful in delivering mood.

1287
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:38.820
I want to avoid, I don't think there's one to avoid in this

1288
01:03:38.820 --> 01:03:39.239
season.

1289
01:03:39.300 --> 01:03:42.420
I think part of the reason that this is so successful is that

1290
01:03:42.420 --> 01:03:44.699
there is not a bad episode.

1291
01:03:44.760 --> 01:03:48.119
So I don't think there's one that I would avoid this season.

1292
01:03:48.780 --> 01:03:55.079
The underrated one, I would probably say for me knock knock.

1293
01:03:55.139 --> 01:04:01.079
It was the one I reevaluated the most on rewatching. one to watch

1294
01:04:01.079 --> 01:04:01.980
the entire season.

1295
01:04:02.039 --> 01:04:05.699
Like, to me, I can't. 12 to watch.

1296
01:04:05.760 --> 01:04:07.079
Yeah.

1297
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:09.420
Well, it's good advice, though.

1298
01:04:09.480 --> 01:04:15.659
Like, to me, I have to watch it all from beginning to end, it's

1299
01:04:15.659 --> 01:04:20.820
probably the most like in hindsight, probably the strongest

1300
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:21.659
season.

1301
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:26.579
You've touched on this Peter earlier in this episode is it holds

1302
01:04:26.579 --> 01:04:27.840
together really well.

1303
01:04:27.900 --> 01:04:30.360
It's a really strong set of episodes.

1304
01:04:30.420 --> 01:04:31.679
There's nothing that's terrible.

1305
01:04:31.739 --> 01:04:32.579
You know.

1306
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:35.940
Some of them are middling, but it all holds together quite well as

1307
01:04:35.940 --> 01:04:36.239
a whole.

1308
01:04:36.300 --> 01:04:39.960
I can't think of another modern series or indeed classic series

1309
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:43.619
apart from maybe a couple of the Hinchcliffe years that don't have

1310
01:04:43.619 --> 01:04:46.739
an unambiguously bad story in them.

1311
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:50.219
There's always a poor relation, like not this season.

1312
01:04:50.280 --> 01:04:56.760
For me, one to watch could be any number of ones from thin ice to

1313
01:04:56.760 --> 01:05:00.840
the finale to Empress of Mars, but I guess I'm going to put

1314
01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:05.880
Empress of Mars as my underrated, one to avoid, well, there's only

1315
01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:06.719
bits and pieces.

1316
01:05:06.780 --> 01:05:10.440
The last 20 minutes a smile, basically, that's it. to a grimace.

1317
01:05:13.500 --> 01:05:16.079
We've got Jenny Laird award nomination.

1318
01:05:16.139 --> 01:05:17.340
Oh, speaking of grimace.

1319
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:21.059
Is there anything that you would give a Jenny Laird Award

1320
01:05:21.059 --> 01:05:22.860
nomination to for this series?

1321
01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:28.079
The reaction to the fake regeneration is something that bobs to my

1322
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:29.639
mind, but what else is there?

1323
01:05:29.699 --> 01:05:30.420
I'm just trying to think.

1324
01:05:30.480 --> 01:05:33.659
I think all of life, the land, is a bit of a puzzling, creative

1325
01:05:33.659 --> 01:05:36.780
choice, and it pains me to say it, because I think Toby Whithouse

1326
01:05:36.780 --> 01:05:41.460
is so good, generally, but it's just such a missed opportunity.

1327
01:05:41.519 --> 01:05:45.000
It's a really interesting setup, which they then don't do anything

1328
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:45.360
with.

1329
01:05:45.420 --> 01:05:48.719
And I think one of the reasons we don't like that regeneration

1330
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:51.780
seat, there's myriad other reasons is because it feels like the

1331
01:05:51.780 --> 01:05:54.780
dramatic climax of the episode and it's unearned and it goes

1332
01:05:54.780 --> 01:05:55.320
nowhere.

1333
01:05:55.380 --> 01:06:01.380
I think it actually spoils it slightly too when in the Doctor

1334
01:06:01.380 --> 01:06:02.159
Falls.

1335
01:06:02.219 --> 01:06:07.079
We see his hand blazing with regeneration energy only a few weeks

1336
01:06:07.079 --> 01:06:08.579
after we last saw it.

1337
01:06:08.639 --> 01:06:12.780
I think that was a bit of a bad idea, I think.

1338
01:06:13.380 --> 01:06:17.159
And then he doesn't regenerate again.

1339
01:06:17.219 --> 01:06:19.199
Yeah, that's right.

1340
01:06:19.260 --> 01:06:20.400
It's a bit of a tease.

1341
01:06:20.460 --> 01:06:25.320
This is rather unimaginative of me, but I have to agree with you.

1342
01:06:25.980 --> 01:06:27.840
It's never unimaginative.

1343
01:06:28.800 --> 01:06:34.559
I really struggled to find a puzzling creative choice in this

1344
01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:35.219
season.

1345
01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:40.139
There are some things that don't work, but I think the fake

1346
01:06:40.139 --> 01:06:44.159
regeneration scene is problematic and why you're doing it.

1347
01:06:44.219 --> 01:06:46.619
No, you could have done that any other way.

1348
01:06:46.679 --> 01:06:52.139
Um, and you could have given it more meaning if it had been closer

1349
01:06:52.139 --> 01:06:56.699
to the the curse ofenric reason for doing that.

1350
01:06:56.760 --> 01:07:02.099
You know, like her faith was keeping this world together or

1351
01:07:02.099 --> 01:07:02.579
something.

1352
01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:04.679
And it's something similar to that.

1353
01:07:04.739 --> 01:07:09.119
Her brain is the thing that's, yeah, fuelling it, but if those

1354
01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:15.179
ideas have been more closely linked, maybe there could have been a

1355
01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:16.860
purpose to that scene in that episode.

1356
01:07:16.920 --> 01:07:21.360
It's what you say, Peter, about that regeneration thing is just

1357
01:07:21.360 --> 01:07:23.699
for something that happens in the middle of the episode and it

1358
01:07:23.699 --> 01:07:26.820
isn't the climax and that's the same point that you're making.

1359
01:07:26.940 --> 01:07:30.719
If the climax of the episode had been destroying Bill's faith and

1360
01:07:30.719 --> 01:07:34.440
doing a whole thing, and then we'd be less nasty to her afterwards

1361
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:35.820
I think it would have been forgivable.

1362
01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:38.159
But it's just a sort of dumb thing that happens in the middle of

1363
01:07:38.159 --> 01:07:38.820
the episode.

1364
01:07:38.880 --> 01:07:43.980
And then we go on to such a terrible climax that it needs lots and

1365
01:07:43.980 --> 01:07:46.679
lots of underpinning with voiceovers and stuff.

1366
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:50.280
And even then, we're not quite sure what... breaks the Terrence

1367
01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:50.820
Dix rule.

1368
01:07:50.880 --> 01:07:52.139
Never cruel or cowardly.

1369
01:07:52.199 --> 01:07:54.840
It's a cruel thing to do to Bill. odd.

1370
01:07:54.900 --> 01:07:58.920
I think we could have had a Jenny Ladd moment in Empress of Mars

1371
01:07:58.920 --> 01:08:03.000
because we've got Ison Churchman playing Alpha Centauri, which is

1372
01:08:03.000 --> 01:08:05.820
just an amazing moment when that happens.

1373
01:08:05.880 --> 01:08:07.500
That goes back to Planet of the Spiders.

1374
01:08:07.559 --> 01:08:10.019
They could have exhumed Jenny Led to play the Empress.

1375
01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:10.800
How about that?

1376
01:08:11.340 --> 01:08:13.739
That'd be a Jenny Ladd moment.

1377
01:08:14.039 --> 01:08:16.260
Bonnie Langford Award.

1378
01:08:16.319 --> 01:08:17.819
Startling discovering.

1379
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:19.020
Oh, Pearl.

1380
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:19.739
Pearl.

1381
01:08:19.800 --> 01:08:20.220
Who else?

1382
01:08:20.279 --> 01:08:21.420
Has to be Pearl.

1383
01:08:21.479 --> 01:08:24.239
And the runner-up is obviously Matt Lucas.

1384
01:08:24.300 --> 01:08:27.300
Yeah, yeah, unequivocally is Pearl.

1385
01:08:27.359 --> 01:08:27.840
Yeah.

1386
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:28.140
Yeah.

1387
01:08:28.199 --> 01:08:29.039
Totally.

1388
01:08:29.100 --> 01:08:32.100
And and for the same reason as the Bonnie Langford Award, you know

1389
01:08:32.100 --> 01:08:35.399
like Bonnie Langford comes along, everyone's kind of cross, Ian

1390
01:08:35.399 --> 01:08:36.720
Levine's cross.

1391
01:08:36.779 --> 01:08:41.159
It's Violet Elizabeth Bott coming in to destroy our program and it

1392
01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:42.899
turns out she's absolutely superb.

1393
01:08:42.960 --> 01:08:46.560
Uh, we didn't have an opinion about Pearl going in except for the

1394
01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:51.600
opinion that we got from her role as as Bill.

1395
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:55.319
Info for the future, friend from the future, photo from the

1396
01:08:55.319 --> 01:08:55.619
future.

1397
01:08:56.279 --> 01:08:59.340
Sums up that episode, doesn't it?

1398
01:08:59.399 --> 01:09:02.520
And she's absolutely magnificent, just one of the best things that

1399
01:09:02.520 --> 01:09:03.960
ever happened to the modern era.

1400
01:09:04.020 --> 01:09:08.640
A great companion, just truly superb, charming, funny, wonderful

1401
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:09.659
just brilliant.

1402
01:09:09.720 --> 01:09:12.779
I look forward to Pearl Mackey coming back in new, new, new Doctor

1403
01:09:12.779 --> 01:09:15.239
Who in 30 years' time working for units.

1404
01:09:15.300 --> 01:09:16.560
Yeah, would that be awesome?

1405
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:25.079
A close 2nd to Bill, I think, is the 2nd half of the season's

1406
01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:29.640
ensemble cast is it just works so well.

1407
01:09:30.300 --> 01:09:34.859
The bringing in of Missy, the sort of building of that plot, and

1408
01:09:34.859 --> 01:09:38.279
it culminates in those last 2 episodes with those characters who

1409
01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:40.500
just, it's just kind of glorious.

1410
01:09:40.739 --> 01:09:44.520
Peter Pearl, Matt, Michelle, they all just work brilliantly

1411
01:09:44.520 --> 01:09:44.880
together.

1412
01:09:44.939 --> 01:09:49.560
Yeah, the strongest cast of the modern era in that in that 2nd

1413
01:09:49.560 --> 01:09:50.159
half of this season.

1414
01:09:50.220 --> 01:09:51.600
It's the PPMMs.

1415
01:10:18.720 --> 01:10:21.239
Well, that's all the time we have for now.

1416
01:10:21.300 --> 01:10:25.800
We'll be back on Christmas Day, to say a final festive farewell to

1417
01:10:25.800 --> 01:10:28.619
Peter Capaldi's doctor, in twice upon a time.

1418
01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:32.939
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1419
01:10:32.939 --> 01:10:36.420
and you can keep up with us on our website, Flight3Entirety.com

1420
01:10:36.420 --> 01:10:39.600
where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all

1421
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:44.520
of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500

1422
01:10:43.500 --> 01:10:47.579
year diary, and the 2nd grade and bountiful human empire.

1423
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:51.779
Until next time, we'll catch you at Christmas if you're feeling

1424
01:10:51.779 --> 01:10:52.439
ridiculous.

1425
01:10:52.500 --> 01:10:55.020
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1426
01:10:55.079 --> 01:10:56.279
See you soon.

1427
01:10:56.340 --> 01:10:57.300
Ta da.

1428
01:10:57.359 --> 01:10:57.779
Good night.

1429
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:06.539
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todby, will be Nathan

1430
01:11:06.539 --> 01:11:08.520
Bottomley, Peter Griffith, and James Selwood.

1431
01:11:08.579 --> 01:11:10.739
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1432
01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:15.239
This episode, the PPMMs, was recorded on the 10th of November 2024

1433
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:17.159
and released on the 8th of December.

1434
01:11:20.220 --> 01:11:23.880
Before we return with our Christmas episode, maximum power, we'll

1435
01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:27.420
be back with our coverage of series D, starting on the 21st of

1436
01:11:27.420 --> 01:11:28.739
December with rescue.

1437
01:11:28.739 --> 01:11:33.300
Check out our website at maximumpowerpodcast.com or our new blue

1438
01:11:33.300 --> 01:11:37.020
sky account, also at maximumpowerpodcast.com.

1439
01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:42.899
Final say about this season, then.

1440
01:11:43.079 --> 01:11:46.439
If you want to leave the listeners with something, what would you

1441
01:11:46.439 --> 01:11:46.680
say?

1442
01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:49.500
This is the best Capaldi season.

1443
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:52.319
I know there is a strong argument for series 8.

1444
01:11:52.380 --> 01:11:57.119
Um, but I think unambiguously, this tells a good set of stories

1445
01:11:57.119 --> 01:12:00.359
with a good set of characters what more could you ask for?

1446
01:12:01.800 --> 01:12:06.060
It's funny the way we complained about series 9, how introspective

1447
01:12:06.060 --> 01:12:11.579
it was and how focussed it was just on the 2 leads, and that there

1448
01:12:11.579 --> 01:12:12.960
wasn't kind of much beyond that.

1449
01:12:13.020 --> 01:12:17.819
And I still liked 9 and I thought it did weird and experimental

1450
01:12:17.819 --> 01:12:22.680
things, but what is great is to just sort of come back and just do

1451
01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:25.739
some solid fun Doctor Who for 12 weeks.

1452
01:12:25.739 --> 01:12:27.659
Just do it.

1453
01:12:27.720 --> 01:12:29.159
It's just like really good.

1454
01:12:29.220 --> 01:12:29.760
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1455
01:12:32.819 --> 01:12:34.680
I just love this series.

1456
01:12:34.739 --> 01:12:39.239
It's, it is, it is just, it's just gorgeous.

1457
01:12:39.960 --> 01:12:42.899
I know it has its faults, but I just love it.

1458
01:12:42.960 --> 01:12:44.939
Well, as I said, at the beginning.

1459
01:12:45.000 --> 01:12:46.319
It's refreshing.

1460
01:12:46.380 --> 01:12:51.420
We've all said it's fun and it's certainly, I think, Moffat going

1461
01:12:51.420 --> 01:12:56.579
out on a high. ending with an all-time classic story. can't go

1462
01:12:56.579 --> 01:12:56.819
wrong.

1463
01:12:56.880 --> 01:12:57.840
Yeah, yeah.

1464
01:12:58.020 --> 01:12:59.939
Okay, that's all I got.

1465
01:13:00.000 --> 01:13:00.779
Yeah I think that's good.

1466
01:13:00.840 --> 01:13:01.800
Sorry, is that okay?

1467
01:13:01.920 --> 01:13:03.119
No, that's fine.

1468
01:13:03.180 --> 01:13:04.260
Like, it's really hard.

1469
01:13:04.260 --> 01:13:05.399
Yeah.