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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:25:48

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast with an hour or so to kill on

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Christmas Day, and no real idea of what to do with it.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm James.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm a partially defrosted but very soggy emotional Christmas

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pudding for this one.

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Well, it's 709 episodes since the doctor regenerated for the 1st

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time, and he's going to be doing it again in about 57.5 minutes

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from now.

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So let's get on with it and discuss twice upon a time.

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Now, this is kind of an odd one, because Moffatt is riding with a

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particularly weird constraint, which is that really, this is an

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episode where nothing can possibly happen, because the original

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intention, I think, was for the doctor to regenerate at the end of

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the Doctor Falls and for the Moffatt era end there.

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But I think, and I could be wrong, I might put an updated version

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of this story in the show notes, if I am.

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But Chibnell didn't want to start his era with a Christmas

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special.

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And Moffatt thought that it would be a bad idea for Doctor Who not

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to have a Christmas special because the Christmas special slot was

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super important for the program.

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It was already reserved for it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

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And so he does an episode, but he does this very, very weird

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episode. and I think horse more common wise and no longer

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producing Christmas material.

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Nor is Lulu, and that's why we actually have a slot because all

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the other people we love are no longer here.

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Lulu is here It is actually a bit more common wise.

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It is a little bit.

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So what we have to do is we have to kind of fill this hour.

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And I think it's telling that not only does it start with this is

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a television program and here's William Hartnell turning into

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David Bradley in order to come onto our new television program.

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But then at the end of the episode, Hartnell gets put back into

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his television program and time freezes so that nothing can

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happen.

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And so this whole thing happens in this sort of weird frozen time

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in a couple of...

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There's quite a bit like a family Christmas here, I think.

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And so it does seem very thin.

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It is very, very clearly Moffat vamping for 60 minutes.

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Yes, I actually felt, because I didn't think I didn't dislike it

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but I wasn't overly warm to it at the time.

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I really, really loved it this time because I think that watching

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it now with a distance.

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I think what it is is Moffatt's basically done the same thing that

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he does in time of the doctor because like time of the doctor.

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It's not really about anything and that nothing really

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consequential happens apart from the regeneration.

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And I think it just becomes this lovely, gentle study of the

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character of the doctor.

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I completely agree with you, Simon.

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I love this story because of that.

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It is very thin, not much happens, but it deals with some like

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real intense kind of questions about what this character's purpose

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is, you know, like he's considering suicide basically at the end

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of it.

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Like, I'm, you know, like, if you were able to regenerate your

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body when you're dying, choosing not to, like, that is basically

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contemplating suicide at Christmas. which is, it's a pretty big

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kind of thing to deal with.

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And, and it's, it's not within a really thoughtful way.

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Um, and in some ways, she, like, you know what it reminds me of, in

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future hindsight is the end of the 3rd 60th anniversary special is

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shooty helping David's doctor start to work through his trauma.

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This is kind of like that.

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It's him seeing himself at the end of his 1st life. contemplating

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not going on and then both deciding, yes, I won't give up.

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I find it really emotional.

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I think, in fact, the person who has the big character arc is

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probably the 1st doctor.

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Absolutely.

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And that's what's super interesting about it because we get the

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1st doctor and I think Bradley does an amazingly good job

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actually.

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The more I see him, the more I like his version of the 1st

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doctor.

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I mean, you know, Richard Herndle becomes the 1st doctor at a time

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when none of us have really seen the 1st doctor in action.

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Just 9 seconds of Darlic Invasion of it.

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Yes, actually.

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Whereas Bradley really gets him, I think.

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He does a really, really terrifically good job.

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Bradley also says, you know, like every jobbing actor of the

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generation, it's the Colin Baker syndrome.

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Oh, I watched from the 1st episode, loved it.

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Bill was marvellous.

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I think it actually treads the right line between parody and

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trying to just do his own version of the 1st doctor's

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performance.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, it's not just an imitation, his not Mike Yarwood or

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something doing a sort of comedy imitation of him.

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I think he's really good.

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But the differences between him and Capaldi's doctrine, I think

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the big moment is where the doctor says to the glass woman, earth

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is protected and the 1st doctor goes, like, what?

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By who?

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And then you get all of that stuff about the doctor of war and you

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get to see what the doctor becomes like in the future.

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And then that lovely moment at the end where he says, oh, so

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that's what it means to be a doctor.

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Yeah.

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Like you're there to try and help and make things better.

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And it's actually an understanding of how the program works that

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isn't always there, I think, because the 1st doctor isn't what the

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doctor eventually becomes.

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Until the very end of his era.

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Yeah, until the very end of his era.

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And it's a gradual thing, isn't it?

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Gradually he gets moved to the centre of the program.

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At the beginning, he's just the crazy old man who gets them into

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scrapes.

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And he isn't the doctor yet.

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And so Moffat creates an origin story for this doctor in a way, and

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there's a series of important moments where there's the doctor of

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war moment where it looks like he might actually decide not to go

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in that direction because the doctor's sort of terrible and

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frightening.

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You get Bill hugging him and telling him he's amazing, which I

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think is really important there.

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And then you get that bit at the end where he witnesses the doctor

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saving the German soldier and Archibald, the captain.

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And I think all of that is just truly great.

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And in a way, this is we take the 1st doctor out and we get the

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future of the program to kind of comment on him and then he gets

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sent back to become the hero that the doctor becomes, he's his own

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origin story.

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I think it's really good.

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It also reminds me a little bit of the day of the doctor as well

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because you get a stand in for the classic series, doctors in the

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day of the doctor, in John Hertz, doctor, who is able to come in

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and comment on how stupid the 10th and 11th doctors are, how

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ridiculous they are.

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And we get bits of that, don't we?

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We get the sunglasses and the sonic screwdriver, the audio

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screwdriver.

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The kitchen for a French...

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Yeah.

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So he gets to sort of comment on that and it looks like he's not

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on board.

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I like where you're going with this, Nathan.

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We also get a culmination of Moffatt's entire era and why this

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season is probably my favourite because he talks about it's it's

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Dickens and all quiet on the Western Front.

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But it is in sentiment, and I feel that Moffat is a very deep man

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who has allowed himself to go, and it's gone through terrible

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things.

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And so did Mark Gatis, and I believe that this is like sort of

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paying to the 2nd unofficial story runner, Mark, and a lovely

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moment for him, and also a moment about remembrance and

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contemplation, and the feelings of loss that Christmas will bring

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around you.

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So, yes, there's gayety and tinsel and snowflakes.

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But, you know, as he says, this is cold to the touch.

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And holding that is painful and burns you.

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This is a burning story.

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And if you really do allow this to just sit and it's quite

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subsuming and moving in a way that there aren't many shows like

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Doctor Who that can do this.

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And it's not just, it's the gravity or density of mass, but it's

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also the gravitas of it.

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It's very nicely done.

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I'm looking back at this, I want to know what you will think at

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the end of this, but Stephen Moffat has really come out on a

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golden limb of skill, considering how quickly you have to do

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things and how we remember Mark wasn't available to help for

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Sherlock because of all the tragedies that were going on for him

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and then Stephen was having all of those awful problems as well

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going on personally and just to be able to pull all of this

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together.

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You tell me, but David Bradley and our lovely mate, lovely Pete

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really are perfect.

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And I really would love speaking welcome and wise, a little

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Christmas special with just the 2 of them, playing silly buggers

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behind the curtains and doing actually just an hour of comedic

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routine and maybe some of those old sketches, because they'd be

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hilarious.

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And they can do the high and the low together.

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It gorgeous. really is.

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I mean, their reputation is that this episode was written in a

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terrible hurry and wasn't planned, et cetera, et cetera, et

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cetera.

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But I think like so many of the great Doctor Who stories, something

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wonderful has come out of that because he's done something that I

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think he's always been in the back of his mind and he's always

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been thinking about, and it actually is much better crafted than I

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think we thought it was back in the day, much better.

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Yes, I agree with you, Simon, it's that necessity to get something

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written in such a short period of time has kind of led to a bit of

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a gem in a way.

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You've got a great cast.

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It's a small cast.

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And they riff off each other.

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There's discussions of loss and love and friendship and what it

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means to be alive.

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I wholeheartedly disagree with the received fan wisdom that this

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is a bit crap.

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So I have to say that at the time, and I've talked about the

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circumstances under which I watched this before and I'm not going

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to do it again.

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Partly because it is, the doctor spending an hour deciding whether

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or not to kill himself at Christmas.

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I think that is kind of miserable.

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I buy it now.

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I like it better now, although I think it is the most undercooked

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part of the actual episode.

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Maybe we can talk about why.

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And also, I think by that point I was getting a bit weary of the

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doctor's kind of low-level self-hatred.

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And it's critiqued here a little bit by Bill, isn't it?

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You know, the doctor never realises that he's the person who goes

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around fixing the universe and making everything better, and he's

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spending all of this time in self-critique, and he never kind of

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ever properly learns it.

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And I do like Until his final speech, basically.

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Yeah, well, even the final speech.

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I mean, I just remember that moment of relief when Jody turned up

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and she sees herself in the screen and smiles and says, brilliant.

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And you just think, wow, you know, there's some real enthusiasm

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about being the doctor back. the end of the era of man pain.

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Yes, I think that's what I said at the time.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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There is a sort of thread of criticism here, which sees this as a

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real kind of betrayal of the character of the 1st doctor, and it

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is because of the sexism.

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I think it's hard to object to the jolly good smacked bottom line

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given that the 1st doctor actually does say that.

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Yes, but to someone who is, he's supposed to be his

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granddaughter.

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Not just some random woman he's barely met.

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That's right But, you know, the stuff about Polly cleaning the

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TARDIS and all of that sort of thing.

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Well, Barbara does say, is it in the web planet or the chase, and

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it says, one of these days, doctor, I'm going to have a jolly good

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spring cleaner around here.

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Yeah.

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And in essence, I think that what's happening here is, remember

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that the 1st doctor in this episode is plucked out of a place 709

245
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episodes ago and he's put back into the television program at the

246
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:08.940
end.

247
00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.379
He's a character from TV, and in a way, he's standing for the

248
00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:17.399
whole show, a version of the show where the doctor isn't the hero

249
00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:22.320
yet and a version of the show that is, however much we might not

250
00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.860
want it to be the case, kind of sexist.

251
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.500
Yeah, pretty problematic in places.

252
00:14:28.559 --> 00:14:29.159
Yeah, yeah.

253
00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:33.299
That's why I don't have a problem with it because the character in

254
00:14:33.299 --> 00:14:39.720
the 60s is an old man who's a bit, you know, he's a bit close

255
00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:42.299
minded, he's a bit sharp, he's a bit difficult with people.

256
00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:46.919
I don't really have a problem with the sexism because it kind of

257
00:14:46.919 --> 00:14:51.720
actually feels right that he would have those antiquated views.

258
00:14:51.779 --> 00:14:57.419
I, at the time, was a little bit grumpy about the portrayal of the

259
00:14:57.419 --> 00:15:00.539
1st doctor because I, what I felt was that they were confusing

260
00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:03.899
deliberately confusing, the actor with the character.

261
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.320
And, you know, we heard stories about, you know, Bill leaving the

262
00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.659
driver out on the cold and so on because he's quote unquote, only

263
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:11.700
the driver and all those sorts of stories that have come mainly

264
00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:12.299
from Anika.

265
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:12.720
Yes.

266
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:16.559
But watching it again now.

267
00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:20.220
It's not so much that I forgave that, but when I saw it all in a

268
00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:24.059
different light because as what you're saying, Nathan, a slight

269
00:15:24.059 --> 00:15:26.519
variation in what you're saying, the David Bradley doctor

270
00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:31.259
represents the show as it was how many years ago it was at the

271
00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:31.440
time.

272
00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:35.460
And so they're using that to reflect on the kind of things we

273
00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:38.700
watched on television, or others watched on television, and the

274
00:15:38.700 --> 00:15:41.279
way it treated women and so on.

275
00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:44.820
Now, fortunately, we don't get into any kind of other aspects, like

276
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:47.820
race issues, for example, and it kind of, it's all just distilled

277
00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:51.960
into the idea of, well, women are around to do the cleaning, and

278
00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:54.179
women are nurses, not men, and all that kind of stuff that's

279
00:15:54.179 --> 00:15:54.360
there.

280
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.899
I would actually go further than that.

281
00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:01.860
I would say that his character possibly stands in for all of

282
00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:02.940
television of that era.

283
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.379
Not just...

284
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:05.399
Well, no, exactly.

285
00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:08.220
I mean, but basically, remember, we are talking and you know, the

286
00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:11.039
actor playing the because Capaldi and Hartnell are roughly the

287
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:11.879
same age, aren't they?

288
00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:15.059
Yeah, Kelty is older in this than Hartnell was.

289
00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:16.320
At the end of his run.

290
00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:17.100
At the end of his run?

291
00:16:17.159 --> 00:16:19.320
Yes, because they're the same age when he starts.

292
00:16:19.379 --> 00:16:19.919
Right.

293
00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:22.320
And of course, he's there a bit longer because of, yeah, production

294
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:22.679
time.

295
00:16:22.740 --> 00:16:25.620
But Hartnell is born in, what, 19078, something like that.

296
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:29.759
You know, he's lived through 2 world wars, et cetera, et cetera

297
00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.860
you know, the shape of a country is very, very different.

298
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:33.480
And that is kind of now reflected.

299
00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:35.940
You see that reflected in what they're giving it.

300
00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:41.519
But what I like is that I don't think it's too judgy about it.

301
00:16:41.580 --> 00:16:45.120
Like, I think I would have been more upset if they were trying to

302
00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:49.139
judge that character for it because you've got the Mark Gates's

303
00:16:49.139 --> 00:16:51.720
character, to kind of that he can kind of play off. and it's, oh

304
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.000
that's a fair and circular, oh, he has water. you know, that kind

305
00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:55.799
of thing. and we're laughing.

306
00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:59.399
And where, and where, and where, yes, and we're, and we're

307
00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:00.059
laughing at that.

308
00:17:00.120 --> 00:17:03.240
We're laughing at them a little bit, but it's gentle enough that I

309
00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:05.819
don't think it's saying how awful these people were.

310
00:17:05.940 --> 00:17:08.940
Yeah, we're not cancelling because of products because of their

311
00:17:08.940 --> 00:17:10.559
because they're just the products of their era.

312
00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.000
Yes, yeah.

313
00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:13.140
Agreed.

314
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:14.519
And the show was a product of its era.

315
00:17:14.579 --> 00:17:17.700
And they lived through many Christmases of the black and white

316
00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:18.299
minstrels.

317
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:19.079
Yes.

318
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:20.519
Right up until the 80s.

319
00:17:20.579 --> 00:17:21.960
They suffered that generation.

320
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:29.099
Of course, the other thing is that at Christmas, those kinds of

321
00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:34.319
conversations had with your elderly relatives all the time and

322
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.700
having to tell them that they can't say this now and all of that

323
00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:41.940
is probably happening in the homes of the people watching it.

324
00:17:42.059 --> 00:17:47.700
The best, the best part of those interactions is the, is Bill, like

325
00:17:47.700 --> 00:17:51.599
revealing her sexuality to the man that, them being speechless

326
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.380
because they're, these 2 old white men weren't quite old, but 2

327
00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:57.900
old-fashioned white men who, it's wonderful.

328
00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:01.019
What is this heavy industrial strength lesbian is immortal?

329
00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:05.819
So she says that she's had plenty of experience with the uh, with

330
00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:07.680
the fairer sex, which is actually pretty great.

331
00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:13.619
And it's also a testament to how far the show has come as well.

332
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:16.920
And all of that stuff is entirely.

333
00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:22.319
I think in the project of the episode, which is here, you know, at

334
00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:27.660
the end of a huge era of the show, let's reevaluate, you know

335
00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:29.579
where it's come from and how we started.

336
00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:32.940
Do you reckon Leila actually hang back at the Capitol to hang out

337
00:18:32.940 --> 00:18:33.720
with Rodan?

338
00:18:33.779 --> 00:18:36.180
for sure I think we're redacting.

339
00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.299
The interesting thing, though, that I'm always a bit kind of

340
00:18:39.299 --> 00:18:43.259
unsure about how you should do a contemporary character expressing

341
00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:46.859
their sexuality to someone from the past because of the different

342
00:18:46.859 --> 00:18:49.019
moral codes of the era.

343
00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.599
I'm not 100% on board with the way it's done here, but at the same

344
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.680
time, I think that the reaction that I see from David Bradley's

345
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.339
doctor and Mark Gates is, is, is more kind of a, these things

346
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:00.119
aren't talked about.

347
00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:03.119
It's comedy boggle reaction.

348
00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:04.380
It's a comedy boggle reaction.

349
00:19:04.500 --> 00:19:04.680
Exactly.

350
00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:06.000
It's just done for laughs.

351
00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:07.259
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

352
00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:10.500
No, it's not moral disapprobation or anything like that, which is

353
00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:14.160
funny. and it puts that doctor on the back foot.

354
00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:16.920
And but not in a terminal way.

355
00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:20.160
I mean, she is there at the end of the episode telling him how

356
00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:21.960
great he is and giving him that hug.

357
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:25.319
When they're out on Villengard.

358
00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:26.099
The villain guard.

359
00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.660
Someone really needs to let shoot you know he's not pronouncing

360
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:30.960
that, right?

361
00:19:31.019 --> 00:19:33.299
No, I think everyone else is pronouncing it incorrectly.

362
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:33.839
Exactly.

363
00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.279
Spiriton.

364
00:19:35.339 --> 00:19:36.839
Yeah, exactly.

365
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:37.920
Metabolist.

366
00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:43.859
Where she asks him, why did you run away, you know, what did you

367
00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:44.279
run to?

368
00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:49.440
And so I always I always looked at that and went, oh, but we just

369
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.859
had that last season. with the whole hype thing, but it's not.

370
00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:54.779
It's not the same conversation.

371
00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:58.559
It's the hybrid is I was running away because I was scared of what

372
00:19:58.559 --> 00:19:59.400
I might become.

373
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:02.460
And this conversation is, where were you going?

374
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.140
Like, where did you run too?

375
00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:08.640
So, like, I was quite critical of that being so soon after another

376
00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:10.019
reason for leaving Gala.

377
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:11.579
I kind of missed the point.

378
00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:13.980
No, this is a different conversation.

379
00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:18.420
Yeah, and it's a conversation about the difference between the 1st

380
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:24.180
doctor and Capaldi's doctor, you know, the gradual transformation

381
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:27.900
that that 1st doctor undergoes to become the star of the show.

382
00:20:27.960 --> 00:20:32.039
And then the hero of the program, you know, to the point where

383
00:20:32.039 --> 00:20:36.119
he's the person who holds that universe that he inhabits

384
00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:36.960
together.

385
00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:41.460
He's the one who ensures that good is rewarded and stuff.

386
00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:44.880
And, you know, that's kind of an overstatement and people kind of

387
00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.299
dislike the idea that the doctor's a superhero, but that's Bean

388
00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:52.559
Moffatt's take on the character because he inherits the show after

389
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:54.960
30 seasons or something, you know.

390
00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:58.980
Was anyone else thinking back to the literary antecedents?

391
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:02.759
I was thinking of Burt Facy, you know, fortunate life, not in the

392
00:21:02.759 --> 00:21:06.180
incidents, but just in the tonality, and there's an innocence.

393
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.900
There's a wonderful innocence to David Bradley's doctor, and again

394
00:21:09.900 --> 00:21:13.200
which comes out as grandpa sexism and grandpa or the rest of it.

395
00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:16.680
I'm ignorant and innocence, both, you know, hold hands on that

396
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:18.059
sudet and line.

397
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:24.359
But there is just the sweetness, I feel, it's, Dickens is, it

398
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:25.079
nails it for me.

399
00:21:25.140 --> 00:21:29.519
It's Moffatt looking at what Doctor Who has been all the years

400
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.119
that he loved it and RTD loved it and everybody else and Mr

401
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.319
Chibnall, all loved it in their own ways and for different reasons

402
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:41.279
and this is, I feel Stephen saying, this is why it always worked

403
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:42.839
because of the frailty.

404
00:21:42.900 --> 00:21:44.339
So you're talking about the superhero thing.

405
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:46.200
He's played with those memes, hasn't he?

406
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:49.200
And with Matt saying, well, I, the very 1st moment with a massive

407
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.220
floating Kenny Everett space cadet eyeball.

408
00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:55.859
Well, I'm the doctor, so basically run.

409
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:57.779
Yeah, in his best posh boy film.

410
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:00.420
And I thought, I don't know that I want, but I get why you're

411
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:04.259
doing that because of how Russell, in the end, had David Tennant's

412
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:06.420
doctor had become so big, he had to fall.

413
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:10.259
So I do believe that perhaps, because Stephen Moffatt, although

414
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:13.140
he's a gentle and kind man, he doesn't mind pointing things out

415
00:22:13.140 --> 00:22:17.700
and there's that, the writer, the writer's incision, the pen has a

416
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:18.299
sharp point.

417
00:22:18.359 --> 00:22:21.299
So he might actually be playing with, well, Russell, you were

418
00:22:21.299 --> 00:22:24.299
doing this with the doctor, but I'm showing everybody that's only

419
00:22:24.299 --> 00:22:25.319
the surface underneath.

420
00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:28.200
There are just catacombs of frailty.

421
00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:43.680
The TARDIS console were in beautifully reconstruct.

422
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:45.599
I mean, as we saw in adventure space and time, anyway.

423
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:49.200
Just things like that, even though I think that the bend at the

424
00:22:49.200 --> 00:22:52.859
beginning is quite rubbish and wrong, but...

425
00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:54.420
Just too tall, I think.

426
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:55.920
Well, just too tall and just too wrong.

427
00:22:55.980 --> 00:22:56.880
I just think he's wrong.

428
00:22:56.940 --> 00:23:00.059
It's, it's, I think for someone who only has to deliver 2 or 3

429
00:23:00.059 --> 00:23:03.119
lines, you find someone who is much more the spitting image and

430
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.000
you, and you save the performance in editing if you have to. you

431
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:06.299
know.

432
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:10.019
But I loved all that and that's the thing that sort of makes makes

433
00:23:10.019 --> 00:23:14.700
you very warm inside my favourite thing it was when we're on

434
00:23:14.700 --> 00:23:20.519
villain guard and we're in the 1st doctor's TARDIS, the way that

435
00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:24.420
the doors open just out onto the set, you know, from inside.

436
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.759
And from the other side, it's all black on the inside.

437
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.559
Yes, yes.

438
00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:31.380
Like looking in, it's just black.

439
00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:34.680
I'm pretty sure they've treated that.

440
00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.980
It's not just the shadows they've painted out. the box to make it

441
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:38.579
as black as possible.

442
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.480
Yeah, yeah.

443
00:23:39.480 --> 00:23:43.019
But I was watching it again last night with some friends.

444
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:48.720
And the way that the TARDIS studio floor, like, merches into the

445
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.019
area.

446
00:23:49.019 --> 00:23:49.559
It's wonderful.

447
00:23:49.619 --> 00:23:50.519
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

448
00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:54.299
Sam, scattered across the front, like, where does the box end from

449
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:55.140
the outside beginning?

450
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:57.900
It's like Joe leaving the Tartars to step out.

451
00:23:57.960 --> 00:23:58.799
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

452
00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:00.420
It's just tremendous.

453
00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:01.259
I love it so much.

454
00:24:01.319 --> 00:24:04.980
And I remember when the show came back thinking, oh, you know

455
00:24:04.980 --> 00:24:09.299
giving it the white wooden door is a stroke of genius because that

456
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:12.420
was always a kind of weird realism.

457
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.099
Yes, we'll just pretend we're not seeing.

458
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:15.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

459
00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:16.859
But yes, okay.

460
00:24:16.920 --> 00:24:20.160
Didn't Russell originally have it just black inside?

461
00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:23.460
And one of the other producers or something said, wait a minute

462
00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:24.180
what's going on here?

463
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:24.779
We can't have that.

464
00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:26.940
He said, oh, well, if that's just the way it is, because of course

465
00:24:26.940 --> 00:24:28.680
that's the way it grew up. just the way it is.

466
00:24:28.740 --> 00:24:29.880
And they said, no, no, no, no, no.

467
00:24:29.940 --> 00:24:31.680
And so then they had to go back and fix their early shot in

468
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.000
whatever...

469
00:24:33.420 --> 00:24:33.660
I think.

470
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:34.200
Yeah, yeah.

471
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:35.400
Yeah, and to row.

472
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:39.900
Well, maybe... in World War III. because that was the first...

473
00:24:40.019 --> 00:24:40.619
Oh yes, of course.

474
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.579
And they did that and then they fixed it from then on because this

475
00:24:44.579 --> 00:24:45.839
idea that you don't see inside.

476
00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:50.039
You just seem black. isn't it isn't it lamb shaded somewhere in

477
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:53.940
the classic era where they say it's the crossing over the real

478
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.839
world interface and everything.

479
00:24:54.900 --> 00:24:56.160
Support between dimensions.

480
00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:56.519
Yes.

481
00:24:56.519 --> 00:24:59.579
And David, we describes it beautifully in an adventure with the

482
00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:00.059
Daleks.

483
00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:03.119
Which is why also you don't get, you know, when you're always

484
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:06.660
looking out from the classic year console room, virtually always

485
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.240
apart from the early time, you just see black as well.

486
00:25:09.299 --> 00:25:10.500
And it sort of, so it does work.

487
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:12.660
It's an interstitial...

488
00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:14.819
So it only changes when your perception changes when you walk

489
00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:16.319
through it because Doctor Who.

490
00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:18.960
I think I remember them digging with it.

491
00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:19.740
I prefer that.

492
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:22.740
I mean, they deal with it in the secondary console room, don't

493
00:25:22.740 --> 00:25:24.839
they, by just having it a black space.

494
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:25.740
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

495
00:25:25.799 --> 00:25:27.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah. kind of go sideways.

496
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:29.279
Yes, they go they go side.

497
00:25:29.339 --> 00:25:30.660
There's an antichamber.

498
00:25:30.720 --> 00:25:31.619
Yes, yes, yes.

499
00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:33.720
Walk into and then outsideways.

500
00:25:33.779 --> 00:25:36.059
So you can never actually see the outside.

501
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:37.500
That's great was good.

502
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:39.539
But that set is beautiful, isn't it?

503
00:25:39.599 --> 00:25:41.880
I mean, it's so good that recreation is great.

504
00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:45.059
I noticed the wall, the curator's wall is there, probably

505
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:47.519
replacing a photographic blow up, something.

506
00:25:47.579 --> 00:25:49.680
But it looks great.

507
00:25:49.740 --> 00:25:52.559
It's wonderful to have the fault locator and all of that there.

508
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:55.259
It really, really does look really good.

509
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:58.319
And Moffatt's toyed with that a little bit.

510
00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:01.980
I think we probably had it at the end of series nine, didn't we?

511
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:06.240
a similar set, but this is kind of the most extensive recreation

512
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:08.640
cause it's taken from an adventure in space and time.

513
00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:13.799
While we're talking about resurrecting great obelisks of the past

514
00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:16.380
wasn't Carol Anne Ford going to be in this episode?

515
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.319
Wasn't there fan rooms of the thing?

516
00:26:19.380 --> 00:26:23.700
I mean, I know that Capaldi really wanted a scene with her a cameo

517
00:26:23.700 --> 00:26:25.680
with her and he and Stephen were talking about it.

518
00:26:25.740 --> 00:26:28.680
I think there was some chatting back in the day.

519
00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:31.380
Because, I mean, she does come back, doesn't she?

520
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.380
She is briefly in an adventure in space and time.

521
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:36.059
Dave, your dinner's on the table.

522
00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:36.720
Yeah, yeah.

523
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:37.980
It's not quite...

524
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:39.059
No, it's not quite the same thing.

525
00:26:39.420 --> 00:26:43.319
It's not her stepping through the ruins of 22nd century London.

526
00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:45.299
No. and still here.

527
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:50.579
That is the photo of her in the pilot on Capoldi's desk in his

528
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:50.819
office.

529
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:52.859
So we've got her and River.

530
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.579
Yeah, they haven't got around to picking her up, taking her back

531
00:26:56.579 --> 00:27:00.420
to the time where I'm probably killing her off yet in big finish.

532
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:01.259
The war, Susan.

533
00:27:01.319 --> 00:27:03.000
The war season war season.

534
00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:05.099
It's not really the wars.

535
00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:08.279
Nothing would surprise me.

536
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.019
It's called Susan's War.

537
00:27:10.259 --> 00:27:13.680
But like the war, Susan, was right there.

538
00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:20.519
Maybe, maybe when she eventually...

539
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:21.480
That could be the war, Susan.

540
00:27:21.539 --> 00:27:32.460
Yeah Were we wondering what had happened to Rusty?

541
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:34.079
Oh.

542
00:27:34.140 --> 00:27:35.759
No, no.

543
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.180
I can't even remember what Rusty was.

544
00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:41.039
Rusty was the Dalek from Into the Dark.

545
00:27:41.099 --> 00:27:42.180
Oh, that's right.

546
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:45.420
That was a sequence, which I Having only watched it yesterday.

547
00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:46.920
I've now completely forgotten again.

548
00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:51.299
You know, when you open up the old box of decorations before you

549
00:27:51.299 --> 00:27:54.000
put them on the tree and there's always one or 2 that you'd made

550
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:55.559
at school for mum more.

551
00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:57.000
I don't care.

552
00:27:57.240 --> 00:27:59.220
Do we still love it?

553
00:27:59.279 --> 00:28:00.240
Do we?

554
00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:02.519
I don't know.

555
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:03.480
We'll just leave it there.

556
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:05.099
It's incredibly thin, right?

557
00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:05.579
isn't it?

558
00:28:05.640 --> 00:28:07.680
Because we start off in Antarctica.

559
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:12.299
We end up in that room, the Chamber of the Dead, which looks like

560
00:28:12.299 --> 00:28:15.660
the lightning temple in Tears of the Kingdom.

561
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:16.799
It does, doesn't it?

562
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:25.619
And then we are on Villengard to find out who those people are

563
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:27.480
like who the testimony is.

564
00:28:27.539 --> 00:28:31.619
We very quickly find that out from Rusty and then we just sort of

565
00:28:31.619 --> 00:28:32.819
fap around for a while.

566
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:34.500
We go back to, you know, we drop.

567
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:36.240
That is an unkind.

568
00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:38.400
Well, I mean, it's vamping in a sense.

569
00:28:38.460 --> 00:28:39.539
It is super thin.

570
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:43.019
Like it is incredibly thin kind of plot wise.

571
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:46.740
And I think the thing that Richard alluded to, and maybe that the

572
00:28:46.740 --> 00:28:51.299
dialogue starts to refer to at the end, is that there's a frozen

573
00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:55.140
wasteland and 2 battlefield.

574
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:00.359
You know, there's nowhere comfortable or Christmassy or anything

575
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:01.680
in it.

576
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:04.140
All 3 of them are kind of harrowing playing.

577
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.259
Yes, there's no lovely light reflecting from beautiful Christmas

578
00:29:07.259 --> 00:29:11.279
decorations, tree with some snow glistening on the window sill.

579
00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:12.720
That's right, sure.

580
00:29:12.779 --> 00:29:16.200
But then you also have one of one of the most sort of meaningful

581
00:29:16.200 --> 00:29:21.720
moments in sort of early 20th century wartime history, the

582
00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:22.920
Christmas armistices.

583
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:28.980
And I can forgive it slack of comfort for showing that moment and

584
00:29:28.980 --> 00:29:34.859
that humankinders can overcome differences for that moment in time

585
00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:38.759
is that there's something really beautiful about showing that

586
00:29:38.759 --> 00:29:44.640
moment in a show which is just talked about war and death and and

587
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:49.980
you know, what it is to be a good person and and and I can forgive

588
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:53.039
the fact that it's not a comfortable little Christmas special

589
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:55.680
because it does something meaningful with Christmas.

590
00:29:55.740 --> 00:29:56.519
Yeah.

591
00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.400
I was going to ask, is it Christmasy enough?

592
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:01.980
I was actually going to wonder when I was watching it.

593
00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:04.859
I couldn't remember whether this was the 1st New Year's special.

594
00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:06.900
And then, of course, oh, no, it's the Christmas Armises.

595
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.059
Of course it's Christmas because it's the least, probably the

596
00:30:09.059 --> 00:30:10.859
least Christmassy of any of the Christmas specials.

597
00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:14.880
I think it was great that they did the Christmas armistice, the

598
00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.759
kind of thing that we would hear about when we were kids, and I'd

599
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:20.339
be curious to know whether it's the kind of thing that kids now

600
00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:22.619
find out about because it is that, you know, that extra distance

601
00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:24.779
ago, this remarkable moment in time.

602
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.079
I was thinking of the novels we had to read at school, like Bert

603
00:30:28.079 --> 00:30:30.240
Facey, who died when I was in year age.

604
00:30:30.299 --> 00:30:31.980
I mean, you were a bit younger.

605
00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:32.819
Yeah, unfortunately.

606
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.039
Yeah, he lived till 82.

607
00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:38.759
Yes, I mean, we remember World War I veterans. marching down.

608
00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:42.480
Yeah, and the indifference, actually, of our generation.

609
00:30:42.539 --> 00:30:45.119
Because that was, yes, that was the era when the post in the

610
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.779
aftermath of Vietnam when we didn't appreciate these people in the

611
00:30:48.779 --> 00:30:50.339
same way that we do once again now.

612
00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:53.160
But the interesting thing with the Christmas Armistice, which is

613
00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:55.319
actually terribly upsetting is after they've played their football

614
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.960
and they've tended to their wounded and they've shaken hands and

615
00:30:57.960 --> 00:30:58.980
probably exchanged stuff.

616
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.619
They then wave at each other and go back to their trenches because

617
00:31:01.619 --> 00:31:03.599
tomorrow they're going to start killing each other again, which is

618
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:06.660
actually probably the most tragic part of the whole thing.

619
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:08.460
And a presage to the new era.

620
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.720
So it is a thing that breaks out on the Western Front in various

621
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.200
different places that Christmas because it's the 1st Christmas.

622
00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:18.420
No one has experienced.

623
00:31:18.420 --> 00:31:19.500
It's supposed to be over bakers.

624
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:22.440
Yeah, no one has Well, in fact, Archibald says that.

625
00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:27.660
No one has yet experienced the full horror of 1915 where things

626
00:31:27.660 --> 00:31:29.880
get really very nice.

627
00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:33.779
And the people in command are furious about the Christmas

628
00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:38.160
armistice and give very strict orders that it's not to happen

629
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:38.579
again.

630
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:39.539
Right.

631
00:31:39.539 --> 00:31:43.500
And because people make accommodations, do you know what I mean?

632
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:46.319
They're there for months just sitting there opposite one another

633
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:49.799
and eventually people have kind of arrangements where, you know

634
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:51.960
they don't fire on each other when they're exercising or

635
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:52.440
whatever.

636
00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:56.339
Like just little informal arrangements arise as a way of kind of

637
00:31:56.339 --> 00:31:58.680
just living in those circumstances.

638
00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:02.160
And the thing is that the Christmas armistice is the thing that

639
00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:07.079
the doctor uses to save Archibald.

640
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:08.700
And there's a wonderful moment.

641
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:12.599
There's a really crap moment where we hear the singing and

642
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:14.279
Archibald goes, is that singing?

643
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.920
You can't tell?

644
00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:21.420
Like, but there's a moment when the singing breaks out and you get

645
00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:25.799
a shot of Capoldi looking really shifty because he's engineered

646
00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:26.220
this.

647
00:32:26.279 --> 00:32:27.599
He sent him back.

648
00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:31.319
No, he sent Archibald back a few hours later.

649
00:32:31.380 --> 00:32:35.099
So instead of dying at that moment, his death is interrupted by

650
00:32:35.099 --> 00:32:36.720
the outbreak of the Christmas.

651
00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:39.480
So we just assume that the German soldier's been frozen for that

652
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:39.720
period.

653
00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:40.259
Who cares?

654
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.640
Yeah, yeah, yeah. right.

655
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:45.539
And so he says something, you know, if I've got my timing right

656
00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:47.940
you know, he actually...

657
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:52.380
That's why he volunteered to take Archibald back rather than

658
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:55.200
letting testimony do it so that he can save him.

659
00:32:55.259 --> 00:33:00.119
And it's saving those 2 men that persuades the 1st doctor that

660
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:02.400
being the doctor is the right thing to do.

661
00:33:02.460 --> 00:33:04.380
And he's not changing history.

662
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:05.880
He is a beard.

663
00:33:05.940 --> 00:33:06.779
No, no, no.

664
00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:11.519
In that, like, Joe, he's not making the history of 70s Doctor Who

665
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:18.420
happen because he's already had his sons, which means that...

666
00:33:18.420 --> 00:33:19.799
Oh, yeah, if he had died.

667
00:33:19.859 --> 00:33:22.740
In terms of, sorry, Archibald having...

668
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:24.539
Yeah, like he's not altering history that greatly.

669
00:33:24.599 --> 00:33:26.279
Archipur will just die slightly later.

670
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.039
Fortunately, there wasn't a line in invasion of the dinosaurs

671
00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:32.640
where the brigadier talks about his his grandfather who died in

672
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:35.339
the father who died in the trenches the day before Christmas

673
00:33:35.339 --> 00:33:36.359
19th.

674
00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:39.059
So part 2 of this is boom.

675
00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:43.019
Oh, no, it is just beautifully done.

676
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:46.440
I think I think it's lovely and I think not having a too

677
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:47.099
Christmassy one.

678
00:33:47.160 --> 00:33:50.519
I think you get the spirit of Christmas without the visuals of

679
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:50.759
Christmas.

680
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:53.819
I feel it's the truth of Christmas, as we were saying earlier, is

681
00:33:53.819 --> 00:33:54.299
what it's like.

682
00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:58.740
But it's also that Doctor Who comes every year at Christmas.

683
00:33:58.799 --> 00:34:00.240
Doctor Who is like Santa.

684
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:05.279
And in the curse of Fatal Death, Emma says that the doctor is like

685
00:34:05.279 --> 00:34:06.420
Santa Claus.

686
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:08.820
And we now have the doctor arriving.

687
00:34:08.820 --> 00:34:12.300
Every Christmas, I think, you know, since 2005, this is 2017.

688
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:13.980
Even when there hasn't been a proper season.

689
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:15.960
Yeah, there's always been a Christmas special.

690
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.199
And we've had the doctor equated to Santa.

691
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:21.059
I think I was going to ask you, Simon.

692
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.539
My favourite 2 Christmas specials, I would say, are a Christmas

693
00:34:24.539 --> 00:34:27.119
Carol, which I think is absolutely brilliant.

694
00:34:27.179 --> 00:34:28.860
And last Christmas, I think.

695
00:34:29.159 --> 00:34:33.719
And they're both incredibly Christmassy. so much so that last

696
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:34.920
Christmas has Santa in it.

697
00:34:34.980 --> 00:34:38.639
But Santa and the doctor are equated in all sorts of ways.

698
00:34:38.699 --> 00:34:45.659
Even Moffatt's 1st regular episode doesn't Moffatt have the doctor

699
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:50.579
go back in time and give Rose a red bicycle when she's 6 for

700
00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:51.000
Christmas.

701
00:34:51.059 --> 00:34:52.980
So he's Santa.

702
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:56.219
Just it's a throwaway line of dialogue in the empty child, I

703
00:34:56.219 --> 00:34:56.400
think.

704
00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:59.880
And so the doctor is always Santa.

705
00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:04.739
And so here is the doctor saving Archibald on Christmas Day.

706
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.199
The brigadier's uncle allegedly.

707
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:11.400
Well, I think maybe it's complicated because there's some spinoff

708
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:12.059
material.

709
00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:16.079
Estate was getting mountain thingy about it or something at the

710
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:16.320
time.

711
00:35:16.380 --> 00:35:18.119
He was going to be the grandfather, you know.

712
00:35:18.179 --> 00:35:21.360
Mark Godas talked about how tearing up in the screw reading the

713
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.480
script, realising this, I'm actually playing the grandfather of

714
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:25.559
the brig, but anyway.

715
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:27.119
Well, I mean, he is.

716
00:35:27.179 --> 00:35:29.820
There's nothing in dialogue that suggests he is, and it's the

717
00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.679
obvious thing to decide.

718
00:35:31.739 --> 00:35:35.159
There is some spinoff material that suggests that there was all

719
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.579
sorts of adultery going on and blah, blah, blah, and that he's

720
00:35:38.579 --> 00:35:41.280
both his uncle and his father and all sorts of things that we

721
00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.619
don't really want to know and that don't care.

722
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:44.159
And don't count.

723
00:35:44.219 --> 00:35:44.699
Exactly.

724
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:48.599
More important.

725
00:35:58.199 --> 00:36:01.440
The other thing I noticed watching it this time round is just

726
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.039
after the sequence where, you know, Archibald to say, blah, blah

727
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:08.699
blah, and we're obviously now moving to the final part of the

728
00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:12.059
episode, which we all know is going to be regeneration, et cetera

729
00:36:12.059 --> 00:36:13.980
generation of both of them, and it's great that we see the heart

730
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:14.519
on one too.

731
00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:17.519
But, I actually got this real case of Andrew Zani feel.

732
00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:21.420
And I know there isn't some Davison Moffatt's favourite classic

733
00:36:21.420 --> 00:36:25.079
series, doctor. an ear and so on.

734
00:36:25.139 --> 00:36:27.179
And I got this wonderful.

735
00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.460
I mean, 1st for a start, you get this wonderful in the music, this

736
00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:32.940
wonderful echo of Spiegel and Spiegel, uh, which is, it's Arbo pet

737
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:33.300
piece.

738
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:33.900
Did you hear that as well?

739
00:36:33.960 --> 00:36:34.380
Richard?

740
00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:37.440
Yes, it's very it's quite clearly quoting it.

741
00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:40.980
And that actually means mirror in the mirror.

742
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:43.679
And it actually works really well because it's when the doctor, the

743
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:44.940
2 doctors are sort of talking to each other.

744
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:47.039
You know, they're the 2 doctors in the mirrors.

745
00:36:47.099 --> 00:36:51.179
As a Louis Borker's line that a putt pert is also a fan of Borkers

746
00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:54.179
in the dream of the man who was dreaming the dreamt man woke.

747
00:36:54.239 --> 00:36:55.920
It's the beginning of the circular ruins.

748
00:36:55.980 --> 00:37:00.239
There's a whole lot of lovely Argentine, Spanish, you know, magic

749
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:03.480
realism, in pets, work, and the subtleties of it.

750
00:37:03.599 --> 00:37:06.239
But it's almost the mirror thing, like there's a sort of certain

751
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.679
through the looking glass nature of when you're comparing the 1st

752
00:37:10.679 --> 00:37:13.619
doctor with the contemporary doctor in terms of and all the things

753
00:37:13.619 --> 00:37:16.980
we've talked about before in terms of how the program, how life

754
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:17.760
how the world has changed.

755
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:19.559
People have television, don't you?

756
00:37:19.980 --> 00:37:23.579
For example. have changed during that time.

757
00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:29.280
But it reminds me then of caves because when you've got Clara

758
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.400
appearing and Najol appearing and so on and all that.

759
00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:36.000
There's this whole don't die doctor thing.

760
00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:40.199
Uh, you know, you mustn't die part of like the K's regeneration

761
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:42.480
sequence and it just really, really reminded me of that.

762
00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:44.639
I don't know whether I'm stretching it.

763
00:37:44.699 --> 00:37:45.719
No, not at all.

764
00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:49.380
No, I did not realise that until you just said it.

765
00:37:49.440 --> 00:37:51.239
Yeah, it is, isn't it?

766
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:54.119
3D. Yeah, into 3D, not floating heads version.

767
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:57.539
You know, interactive equivalent of those scenes.

768
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:00.599
And the great thing is that we've established because of testimony

769
00:38:00.599 --> 00:38:03.480
even though, yes, this is not, in some ways, this is not really

770
00:38:03.480 --> 00:38:04.019
Bill.

771
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:06.420
And the episode actually deals with this.

772
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:09.840
It actually is Bill because it's the complete distillation of all

773
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.019
her memories, all her everything, just recreated in this body.

774
00:38:13.079 --> 00:38:14.820
So what's the difference between that?

775
00:38:14.820 --> 00:38:16.679
And Bill a 2nd before she died.

776
00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:19.500
And it actually kind of deals with that, like, was there actually

777
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:20.880
a difference between these 2 things?

778
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.440
And the doctor is able to accept her as that?

779
00:38:22.500 --> 00:38:24.719
And then and then decide that he's going to accept.

780
00:38:24.780 --> 00:38:27.599
Finally, stop putting off the inevitable.

781
00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:32.519
Do you think that the Fajarians, Missy and Testimony, like, take

782
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:37.559
little tickets so that they know what order to process the people

783
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:38.340
on the point of death?

784
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:42.179
I think like Santa Claus being able to deliver all those presents

785
00:38:42.179 --> 00:38:43.260
in a single ego.

786
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.360
Sometimes magic can just happen.

787
00:38:46.559 --> 00:38:48.659
It is great, isn't it?

788
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:52.980
And I do think that there's a sort of generosity in kind of fixing

789
00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:56.159
the doctor's memory about Clara. kind of nice.

790
00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:58.619
It's like that kind of, yeah, that was a stupid idea.

791
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:03.420
It's like, I mean, we were made to, we were forced to wait for a

792
00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:06.000
while before Catherine Tate gets her memories back.

793
00:39:06.059 --> 00:39:06.719
Yes of the doctor.

794
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:08.039
And again, that was a bad idea.

795
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:13.079
It's wonderful hearing Capoldi say Clara again, which is just

796
00:39:13.079 --> 00:39:13.440
awesome.

797
00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:18.179
It does make me sad, though, that like I was sad when Matt Smith

798
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:22.139
left, because I think both of them are brilliant doctors who both

799
00:39:22.139 --> 00:39:27.119
deserved more episodes, and my understanding is that they would

800
00:39:27.119 --> 00:39:33.719
have done more episodes, had more episodes, that we suffer.

801
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:36.179
So basically each of them should have had a 4th season.

802
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:39.300
But also, particularly Capaldi, should have had another

803
00:39:39.300 --> 00:39:39.960
companion.

804
00:39:40.079 --> 00:39:43.380
Like, it's just so sad when you've, even, you know, Davison's only

805
00:39:43.380 --> 00:39:44.099
around for 3 years.

806
00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:46.739
Lots of doctors are running around for 3 years, but you've got

807
00:39:46.739 --> 00:39:49.380
more people, more floating heads around the regenerating doctor.

808
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:49.920
Do you know what I mean?

809
00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:52.559
And you sort of think, God, it's just really the people that are

810
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:54.480
just here. a bit sparse, isn't it?

811
00:39:54.539 --> 00:39:54.840
Yeah.

812
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:59.099
There's that, but then you have the beauty of, and we've talked

813
00:39:59.099 --> 00:40:00.900
about this in earlier episodes this season.

814
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:05.699
The beauty of the cast in this season that we've just had with

815
00:40:05.699 --> 00:40:11.880
Capoldi, Pearl Mackey, Matt Lucas, and Cherl Gomez is one of the

816
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:13.980
strongest casts this show has ever had.

817
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:18.900
And it's really lovely getting Matt Lucas turned up at the end.

818
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:19.679
He counts.

819
00:40:19.739 --> 00:40:20.880
Yeah, blah, blah, blah.

820
00:40:20.940 --> 00:40:23.340
Yeah, like Michelle Gomez should, frankly, turn.

821
00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:24.840
And the invisible hair thing.

822
00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:29.880
Like, you know, he has all of those silly lines about, like

823
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:32.280
changing his body or he was blue for a while.

824
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:36.000
Like, just sort of strange lines about his physicality all the way

825
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:38.820
through the season and now here, finally, it's canon that he has

826
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:42.119
hair, but it's invisible, which I just think is great.

827
00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:45.300
And we also talked about the cuddle thing, which he did before

828
00:40:45.300 --> 00:40:48.539
which is an improvised line by Matt Lucas originally, and now it

829
00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:50.699
makes it into the script, which is really cool.

830
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:52.980
Does anyone else actually know where Nardle came from?

831
00:40:53.039 --> 00:40:55.079
I've watched this all this thing at least twice.

832
00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:55.619
No idea.

833
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:57.539
He was the husbands of River Song.

834
00:40:57.599 --> 00:40:58.500
Yes, but he just appeared.

835
00:40:58.559 --> 00:40:59.099
Yes, yeah.

836
00:40:59.159 --> 00:40:59.639
He just appears.

837
00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:00.780
It is...

838
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.039
It's like Mel.

839
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:06.599
He's the Mel we we had all the time.

840
00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:10.920
It's just in the wrong place of the wrong time and gets, you know

841
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:13.920
eaten by a giant red robot.

842
00:41:13.980 --> 00:41:17.519
And that's reconstituted because we want him back in the show.

843
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:18.239
Exactly.

844
00:41:18.300 --> 00:41:19.019
Like, yeah.

845
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:21.599
I kind of love that you don't see that.

846
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:22.260
He's just back.

847
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:23.460
He was like, oh, I put you back together.

848
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:25.199
It would be a crime if you did see it.

849
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:28.800
Yeah, it makes him a strange sort of marginal figure, doesn't it?

850
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:29.880
A jolly cyber thing.

851
00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:30.659
Yeah, yeah.

852
00:41:30.719 --> 00:41:33.360
So he only really properly becomes a companion during the course

853
00:41:33.360 --> 00:41:37.619
of series 10 and then here, he's definitely a companion because

854
00:41:37.619 --> 00:41:40.199
he's there in the farewell sequence.

855
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:43.739
What about once he gets into the TARDIS, though?

856
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:45.840
I think it's great.

857
00:41:45.900 --> 00:41:46.860
Okay.

858
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:51.059
And I know that I don't know whether this is still regarded.

859
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:54.780
Now as man explaining, but I remember back at the time, there was

860
00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:57.179
some critique of the speeches being mansplaining.

861
00:41:57.239 --> 00:41:59.219
I think that was always a joke.

862
00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:02.280
Like, I do think that the mansplaining thing was always a joke.

863
00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:03.480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

864
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:09.119
No, because I remember the original thing, the original thing of

865
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:09.360
it.

866
00:42:09.420 --> 00:42:11.699
I think I think it was clearly a joke.

867
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.820
And then people might have taken it more seriously.

868
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:16.679
Well, including people in this room, because you were all in the

869
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:19.500
pub with us, you know, 8 years ago and however, it was just saying

870
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:21.119
pity about all the man's planning at the end.

871
00:42:21.179 --> 00:42:23.039
Very serious look on your face.

872
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.880
I think that that speech is bad and kind of boring.

873
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:28.679
Well, we've seen it all before.

874
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:32.880
And I think part of the problem is it's the end of Zion inversion

875
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:36.599
where we learn that Capoli can just take half an episode and just

876
00:42:36.599 --> 00:42:38.039
talk, right?

877
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:39.900
until we get him to do it again.

878
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:42.480
Yeah, it's leaning into that.

879
00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:43.679
It's saying, yes, he can do this.

880
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:45.239
This is how we're going to end this doctor.

881
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:47.880
Yes, my take on that.

882
00:42:47.940 --> 00:42:49.019
Is it?

883
00:42:49.019 --> 00:42:50.460
I don't think it is mansplating.

884
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:53.880
I think it can be seen as man explaining.

885
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:57.300
I think the objects of it are a little problematic when you're

886
00:42:57.300 --> 00:43:02.159
getting your 1st female doctor to have an old white man basically

887
00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:04.920
saying, hey, doctor, I'm going to explain to how to be me.

888
00:43:04.980 --> 00:43:07.199
The optics of that are not great.

889
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:10.199
The same as the optics of having having the TARDIS blow up and

890
00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:10.679
throw her out.

891
00:43:10.739 --> 00:43:13.380
I know they do that at the end of every regeneration up until this

892
00:43:13.380 --> 00:43:13.619
point.

893
00:43:13.679 --> 00:43:14.940
So why is it different?

894
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:15.719
Why is that the problem?

895
00:43:15.780 --> 00:43:17.940
And it does not throw her out.

896
00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:22.380
There was crap in the media following that about women drivers.

897
00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:27.840
But I mean, the 1st thing Capoldi says is to Clara, do you know

898
00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:28.679
how to drive this?

899
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:29.639
Yeah, no, no.

900
00:43:29.639 --> 00:43:31.980
No, do you know how to fly distinct?

901
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:32.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

902
00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:35.940
They should have been aware of the way that could be taken.

903
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.320
Yeah, maybe doing something different.

904
00:43:37.380 --> 00:43:40.679
I don't think we need to appease those who just need to be

905
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:41.940
outraged about stuff.

906
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:45.360
And so I'm sure people can see it as mansplaining and I'm not

907
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:48.840
saying that they're idiots, but let's just say that I think that

908
00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.300
it's a stretch, a real stretch.

909
00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:54.780
You're really trying hard to be offended by this is what I think

910
00:43:54.780 --> 00:43:55.679
by grandpa.

911
00:43:55.860 --> 00:44:01.199
Yes, Capaldi is a late middle-aged white-haired man.

912
00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:02.400
I'm right.

913
00:44:02.460 --> 00:44:04.019
Yes, yes, exactly.

914
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:07.920
But he is, who's only basically the same age as 3 of us in this

915
00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:09.960
room, vaguely at the time of filming this.

916
00:44:10.019 --> 00:44:11.579
Oh, God, I am the doctor.

917
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:18.840
But he does not present as an old man in any other way.

918
00:44:18.900 --> 00:44:19.920
No, no, right?

919
00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:21.360
He's just physically like that.

920
00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:26.039
Secondly, the speech is wrapping up where we started with the

921
00:44:26.039 --> 00:44:28.139
Capaldi era, which is am I a good man?

922
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:33.059
And what it's saying is, following his entire run, you know, having

923
00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:35.280
lived through his entire run and also having lived through this

924
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:39.119
particular episode, he's finally, finally accepted the fact that

925
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:40.380
yes, he is a good man.

926
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:42.780
And, you know, in the same way that you have all those wonderful

927
00:44:42.780 --> 00:44:46.500
minds like, you know, I don't want to go or I'll always remember

928
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:47.579
when the doctor was me.

929
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:52.139
Each of those modern era doctors, particularly gets, and Eccleston

930
00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:53.940
as well, you know, it was really great and you know what?

931
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:58.079
So was I. They all get a chance to say, farewell me.

932
00:44:58.139 --> 00:44:58.860
I was brilliant.

933
00:44:58.980 --> 00:44:59.880
It wasn't this fun.

934
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:02.039
Good luck to whoever I'm about to be.

935
00:45:02.099 --> 00:45:05.159
And even Jody, I mean, what does Jody say at the end of hers?

936
00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:10.320
She says, right then, doctor, whoever I'm going to be, tag your

937
00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:10.920
it.

938
00:45:10.980 --> 00:45:11.400
Exactly.

939
00:45:11.460 --> 00:45:14.460
The other thing about this speech is, and whilst I do agree that

940
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:17.639
sometimes these speeches, I do find rather tiresome, I think the

941
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:22.139
best example is in the Zydon inversion, 100%, those kind of

942
00:45:22.139 --> 00:45:22.619
speeches.

943
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:25.679
But in the 21st century, the doctor every now and again does that

944
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:29.639
thing where he or she talks about the meaning of life, the

945
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:31.739
universe and everything, in the way that Capaldi is going on now.

946
00:45:31.800 --> 00:45:35.460
The other thing why I think this episode, this sequence works on

947
00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:39.539
its own terms, is because it wraps up the whole season that we've

948
00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:44.159
just had, where Missy is being trying to be rehabilitated in the

949
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:44.519
vault.

950
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:47.820
And the moral of that story is that you're not inherently good or

951
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:51.659
inherently evil, good and evil, that's a choice you make, and

952
00:45:51.659 --> 00:45:54.420
Missy is capable of make, and was finally capable of making that

953
00:45:54.420 --> 00:45:54.659
choice.

954
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:58.320
So that's also what Capaldi is basically talking about here is, you

955
00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:59.760
know, the doctor, who am I?

956
00:45:59.820 --> 00:46:02.880
I am this wonderful person and I'm making sure that my next

957
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:08.099
iteration of this myself remembers all that rather than going

958
00:46:08.099 --> 00:46:11.219
through another regenerative cycle, saying, am I a good person, et

959
00:46:11.219 --> 00:46:11.760
cetera.

960
00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:14.820
I think for it to be mansplaining, it needs to be patronising, and

961
00:46:14.820 --> 00:46:16.320
I don't think it's patronising.

962
00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:20.400
That's usually also the other the other thing about it.

963
00:46:20.460 --> 00:46:23.099
I think that's a really nice way of looking at it.

964
00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:24.119
It's him.

965
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.000
And again, I hadn't, I'm having the tot experience.

966
00:46:27.480 --> 00:46:30.960
I hadn't considered that either, that it's not him.

967
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:34.019
And I didn't think it was mainsplaining either.

968
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:38.880
There was just talk of it at the time that he is telling himself

969
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:44.039
how to be himself because he spent so much of this life

970
00:46:44.039 --> 00:46:47.460
questioning whether he's a good person.

971
00:46:48.239 --> 00:46:53.579
I think, though, that the real role of it is, you know, Moffatt

972
00:46:53.579 --> 00:46:59.699
saying who the doctor is, and I think by this point in the script

973
00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:01.619
he's run out of new ways of doing that.

974
00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:06.719
And I also, yeah, I can also see Capoli kind of desperately trying

975
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:10.800
to inject interest into the script because it's not that

976
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.539
interesting, a speech because it is just, he says a lot of things

977
00:47:15.539 --> 00:47:18.179
and there's no real through line.

978
00:47:18.239 --> 00:47:19.500
It's not really about anything.

979
00:47:19.559 --> 00:47:23.460
That moment where Capoldi, you know, tries to tell the line about

980
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:24.360
pairs.

981
00:47:24.420 --> 00:47:27.360
You know, he's suddenly excited about having to deliver the line

982
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.599
about pears and then he falls over and tries to say things.

983
00:47:30.659 --> 00:47:32.519
It's kind of like, we've had all of this.

984
00:47:32.579 --> 00:47:34.320
The whole episode's been about this.

985
00:47:34.380 --> 00:47:37.019
We don't need a final speech.

986
00:47:37.079 --> 00:47:38.760
Let's just do the regeneration.

987
00:47:38.820 --> 00:47:41.820
And I think that's one of the things I struggle with. like, I

988
00:47:41.820 --> 00:47:43.860
don't necessarily have a problem with the speech.

989
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:46.739
I think the speech is just goes on a little too long.

990
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:51.000
And he's throwing himself drunkenly around the set because.

991
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:52.199
Well, he's trying to hold it all back.

992
00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:53.280
Yeah.

993
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:58.320
Yeah, like, and I get that in the story sense, but it's just, like

994
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:01.559
just so that don't ever tell anybody your name except for

995
00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:01.920
children.

996
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:04.860
Yeah.

997
00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:07.199
Yeah, obviously, yes.

998
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.679
But basically, I've kind of, by the time I've gotten to this point

999
00:48:10.679 --> 00:48:13.980
in 21st century Doctor Who, I'm kind of accepting that there's

1000
00:48:13.980 --> 00:48:15.480
going to be...

1001
00:48:15.480 --> 00:48:17.579
That's what we have to have.

1002
00:48:17.639 --> 00:48:20.039
And if you imagine, I mean, one of the things that I think I think

1003
00:48:20.039 --> 00:48:22.679
I've mentioned before is I'm kind of sick of the thing of, you

1004
00:48:22.679 --> 00:48:25.380
know, the doctor spending, you know, all this time regenerating

1005
00:48:25.380 --> 00:48:28.920
and like, you know, we kind of got it with David Tennant's doctor

1006
00:48:28.920 --> 00:48:31.019
we kind of got it here again as well.

1007
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:34.619
It's just that thing of, oh, for God's sake, just have them fall

1008
00:48:34.619 --> 00:48:35.820
from a radio telescope and die.

1009
00:48:36.599 --> 00:48:42.179
If they didn't keep holding it in, it wouldn't blow the Tartars up

1010
00:48:42.179 --> 00:48:43.619
when they finally let go.

1011
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:45.300
That's the problem, exactly.

1012
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:49.260
I just got the line from a, from a silly fabulous.

1013
00:48:49.320 --> 00:48:51.300
Oh, for God's sake, just die.

1014
00:48:51.780 --> 00:48:53.820
There is something from that.

1015
00:48:53.880 --> 00:48:57.840
But look, I accepting all of that, accepting the limitations that

1016
00:48:57.840 --> 00:48:59.460
or at least the constraints.

1017
00:48:59.519 --> 00:49:03.119
I think it's perfectly fun and wraps up the year and what the year

1018
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:03.539
has been doing.

1019
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:06.659
And when the new doctor arrives, there's 2 things that I really

1020
00:49:06.659 --> 00:49:12.360
really like, and the 1st one is that we see Capoldi's ring, fall

1021
00:49:12.360 --> 00:49:13.320
from her.

1022
00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:15.179
Lovely, lovely.

1023
00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:16.679
And we did see it.

1024
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:19.380
Did we see it with David Bradley regenerating?

1025
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:21.300
We didn't, but it does happen, doesn't it?

1026
00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:22.380
The ring falls off.

1027
00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:25.079
The ring falls off in power of the Dala. doesn't it?

1028
00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:26.099
The ring falls off in power.

1029
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:26.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1030
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:28.860
Oh, no, well, the ring has already fallen off and Ben gives it

1031
00:49:28.860 --> 00:49:31.380
back to him to say if you were the real man in this ring, which is

1032
00:49:31.380 --> 00:49:35.400
a completely idiotic line, obviously. leaving that to one side.

1033
00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:38.639
But, and Capaldi's ring, like, it was just about the 1st thing

1034
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:43.199
that we saw of that doctor in that special introducing...

1035
00:49:43.199 --> 00:49:46.380
Because it had 12th doctor. real wedding ring, which his wife

1036
00:49:46.380 --> 00:49:47.579
wasn't going to allow him to take off.

1037
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:50.039
Well, I think that he didn't want to have to take it on and off

1038
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.320
and have to remember whether it was on or off.

1039
00:49:52.380 --> 00:49:55.559
There's that and also, you know, it's my wedding ring. don't want

1040
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:55.980
to take that.

1041
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:56.400
That's right.

1042
00:49:56.639 --> 00:50:01.440
But they made, they made a... a thing to cover... to make it kind

1043
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:02.760
of look like Hardmal's ring.

1044
00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:03.360
Yes, exactly.

1045
00:50:03.420 --> 00:50:06.119
But I mean, it was the 1st thing we saw because before we heard

1046
00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:10.260
the announcement, we actually saw Capoldi's hand.

1047
00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:13.199
We saw that shot of his hand, remember?

1048
00:50:13.260 --> 00:50:15.960
And it's like, that was the moment where we all went, oh, goodness

1049
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:17.280
me, it is Kabaldi.

1050
00:50:17.340 --> 00:50:18.119
Yes, yeah, yeah.

1051
00:50:18.179 --> 00:50:19.380
That's the moment we knew.

1052
00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:21.719
And he had the wedding ring on.

1053
00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:23.340
And so that's associated with him.

1054
00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:27.960
It's like Matt Smith dropping the bow tie at the very end.

1055
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:31.619
And it does hard back to the 1st doctor's regeneration as well.

1056
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:32.519
I thought that was really great.

1057
00:50:32.579 --> 00:50:34.860
It's a great way to summarising this is an entirely different

1058
00:50:34.860 --> 00:50:35.340
facility.

1059
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:36.179
It's really good.

1060
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:39.539
And then the other one, which I thought was good, was that we

1061
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:42.539
don't see the doctor's face until she sees it.

1062
00:50:42.599 --> 00:50:43.320
Oh yeah.

1063
00:50:43.320 --> 00:50:44.579
So she sees it first.

1064
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:48.239
We're not allowed to see it. see her eyes and her hair and stuff

1065
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:51.719
but we only see her face once she's seen it 1st and gets to react

1066
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:52.139
to it.

1067
00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:53.699
And it's great.

1068
00:50:53.760 --> 00:50:56.039
It's sort of summarising it, you know, finally the doctors were, oh

1069
00:50:56.039 --> 00:50:56.579
brilliant, you know.

1070
00:50:56.639 --> 00:50:57.239
Yeah, yeah.

1071
00:50:57.300 --> 00:51:00.599
I finally got the girl gig after all this time.

1072
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:01.739
It's just really lovely.

1073
00:51:01.800 --> 00:51:05.039
And I think she plays those moments beautifully.

1074
00:51:05.099 --> 00:51:05.820
Now, can I ask?

1075
00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:09.300
Because I believe this happened at the end of the ITD era.

1076
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:12.780
Does Chipnell come in and direct this last sequence and is a

1077
00:51:12.780 --> 00:51:13.679
different music, et cetera?

1078
00:51:13.739 --> 00:51:14.820
Or is it still still still Murray?

1079
00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:16.500
It's still Murray, isn't it?

1080
00:51:16.559 --> 00:51:20.099
But he clearly decides what happens.

1081
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:23.760
Like, it's Chibnall's decision to have her fallout of the TARDIS

1082
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:28.079
and to see her heading sort of, there's a city in the background.

1083
00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:29.219
Sheffield.

1084
00:51:29.219 --> 00:51:31.199
Yeah, she's heading towards Sheffield, I guess.

1085
00:51:31.260 --> 00:51:31.860
Oh, God.

1086
00:51:32.340 --> 00:51:36.119
Plummeting towards Sheffield, I believe is the expression.

1087
00:52:00.179 --> 00:52:03.179
Well, that's all the time we have for this Christmas.

1088
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:06.840
We'll be back on New Year's Day to say goodbye to Peter Capoldi

1089
00:52:06.840 --> 00:52:11.219
and Stephen Moffat and au revoir to flight through entirety in the

1090
00:52:11.219 --> 00:52:13.079
Capoldi Moffat retrospective.

1091
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:16.860
In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts

1092
00:52:16.860 --> 00:52:20.519
and you can keep up with us on our website, flythroughentirety.com

1093
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:23.519
where you'll find our social media links, as well as links to all

1094
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:28.500
of our other podcasts, including our other Doctor Who podcasts, 500

1095
00:52:27.420 --> 00:52:31.500
year diary, and the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1096
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:35.159
Until next time, sleep in heavenly peace.

1097
00:52:35.219 --> 00:52:37.739
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1098
00:52:37.860 --> 00:52:40.139
The moment has been prepared for.

1099
00:52:40.199 --> 00:52:41.039
Good then.

1100
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:51.420
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Simon Moore

1101
00:52:51.420 --> 00:52:54.539
James Selwood, and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron

1102
00:52:54.539 --> 00:52:55.739
Lamb.

1103
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:58.619
This episode, plummeting towards Sheffield, was recorded on the

1104
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:02.159
24th of November 2024 and released on Christmas Day.

1105
00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:08.219
In just a couple of days, we'll be talking about the 2024

1106
00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:12.659
Christmas special, Joy to the World on the 2nd great and bountiful

1107
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:16.440
Human Empire, which is available wherever good podcasts can be

1108
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:16.679
found.

1109
00:53:16.739 --> 00:53:20.880
We'll see you then, and of course, in the meantime, Merry

1110
00:53:20.880 --> 00:53:21.239
Christmas.

1111
00:53:22.500 --> 00:53:27.659
I think that's probably it If you care what the media's saying, you

1112
00:53:27.659 --> 00:53:29.219
should fight something better to do.

1113
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:32.880
No, no, I didn't care what the media was saying at the time.

1114
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:35.820
I was like, oh, maybe, maybe...

1115
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:37.260
Yeah, because I could have done something different.

1116
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:41.820
I think that's what, what, it's, that's what, yeah, because shaded

1117
00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:44.099
that to me is that you did the same thing again.

1118
00:53:44.159 --> 00:53:46.079
It's Matt Smith.

1119
00:53:46.139 --> 00:53:50.039
Well, you have Matt Smith hanging from the TARDIS, you know, like

1120
00:53:50.039 --> 00:53:52.679
we are just doing that. like stop, stop regenerating.

1121
00:53:52.739 --> 00:53:53.820
And you know, they learned their lesson.

1122
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:55.440
She doesn't regenerate at the end.

1123
00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:57.900
No, no, she doesn't regenerate inside the table.

1124
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.480
They're outside the TARDIS. nevertheless, nevertheless.

1125
00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:03.300
And it just changes whilst...

1126
00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:06.119
And her clothes change as well, which is, I think, a worse scene

1127
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:08.699
than anything you might think is wrong with this.

1128
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:10.139
I think that's the greatest sin.

1129
00:54:10.199 --> 00:54:13.440
No, no, but like the reason is that we don't have David wearing

1130
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:15.480
that horrible outfit for any time.

1131
00:54:15.539 --> 00:54:19.260
Yes, I know, but that's, that's, I think, made for bad reasons and

1132
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:20.219
I don't think that's.

1133
00:54:20.460 --> 00:54:23.159
That's the reason. good reason, I think.

1134
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:24.659
Well, that's production fees.

1135
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:28.500
Look, no, like, I mean, one of the reasons that...

1136
00:54:28.500 --> 00:54:29.340
David Tennant...

1137
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:29.820
Yes, I know.

1138
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:33.300
Okay, so it happened once before, but that was...

1139
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:39.659
Actually, claims that the reason he did that was so that people

1140
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:43.260
wouldn't mock him being in drag.

1141
00:54:43.260 --> 00:54:45.960
But I mean, that's ridiculous. to be in that outfit.

1142
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:48.840
I know, I know, but I think it's just a horrible outfit.

1143
00:54:48.900 --> 00:54:50.219
He just didn't want David.

1144
00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:50.579
No, exactly.

1145
00:54:50.699 --> 00:54:52.619
But it's...

1146
00:54:52.619 --> 00:54:55.800
And he didn't have time to do a wardrobe scene or anything like

1147
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:56.039
that.

1148
00:54:56.099 --> 00:54:58.320
Like all of that stuff. like all of that.

1149
00:54:58.380 --> 00:55:00.599
They have time to do a whole lot of other crap. they do a

1150
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:01.019
wardrobe.

1151
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:04.079
Or maybe they didn't have to, they didn't have the costume.

1152
00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:05.940
They may not have had the costume.

1153
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:07.559
Because it's a different production company.

1154
00:55:07.619 --> 00:55:08.159
Yeah, yeah.

1155
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:10.139
The only thing that they...

1156
00:55:10.139 --> 00:55:13.079
It doesn't so tenant's not actually there when they film the...

1157
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.340
Oh, no, no, no.

1158
00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:15.300
Oh, they do it all again.

1159
00:55:15.420 --> 00:55:17.099
No, it was done like a year later.

1160
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.500
Yeah, yeah, they're nowhere near.

1161
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:22.559
Like, it's not like Matt and David going in the thing and then

1162
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:23.280
out.

1163
00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:24.239
It's completely different.

1164
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.239
That's, no wonder the whole thing was a sh then back.

1165
00:55:27.300 --> 00:55:28.440
I just bleep that.

1166
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:29.219
No, no, no.

1167
00:55:29.940 --> 00:55:32.219
Yeah, yeah, that's what Styer's robot is for.

1168
00:55:33.119 --> 00:55:35.460
That's a bleeping noise.

1169
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:41.340
I mean, surely you could just have him go into the police box at

1170
00:55:41.340 --> 00:55:45.840
the end and then come out and children in need wearing his

1171
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:46.260
outfit.

1172
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:47.820
No, no, you don't.

1173
00:55:47.820 --> 00:55:49.619
In a Poirot outfit.

1174
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:55.920
Anyway, anyway, it was Neil Patrick Harris did it because for

1175
00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:56.639
fashion reasons.

1176
00:55:56.760 --> 00:55:57.659
Fine.