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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:08:40

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that knows how many seconds there are in eternity.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm the last of the Hogmany T for this one.

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Well, just last week, we said goodbye, not only to Peter Capaldi's doctor, but also to the new series 2nd showrunner, Stephen Moffat, during whose tenure, we've had 84 episodes.

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We've met 2 doctors, 5 companions, and 3 wives, and we've travelled to Gallifre, Trezalore, The Big Bang, and the very end of time itself.

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And we've also spent an inordinately creepy amount of time lurking under people's beds.

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So let's find out what we've learned in the Capoldi Moffat Retrospective.

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All right, I'm going to ask a question, and the question is this.

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What is your favourite Peter Cabaldi season, starting with Richard?

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10 out of 10?

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I think maybe eight.

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I have to agree with Richard 10.

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That's brilliant. 10 for the characters I'd have to say 8 as well.

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There's a big case for eight, but I'm going 10.

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I'm going 10.

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I mean, I have a massive soft spot for 10 and I've loved it as we've gone through this time.

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It's good too, though.

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It's a sort of RTD season.

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It's got the romance subplot, all of that sort of thing.

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I mean, I'm going to be controversial and say I ate was a difficult choice because I was going to, I want what I really want to say was, well, none of them really, none of them for me really stand out.

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I think they've all got problems.

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I don't buy the O season 10 is absolutely fantastic.

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I'm not in that group because I think there are too many kind of really ordinary episodes in it, even though there are some great, some of the, I think some of the best Capaldi episodes are in season 10, but I think there's just a lot of ordinariness and there's just things that annoy me too much about all 3 seasons, I'm afraid.

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I think they're sort of good for different reasons because season 8 has a very strong arc and through line, and that helps to make that good, whereas series 10 is just Moffat on autopilot, and I don't mean that as a bad thing.

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He just turns out a really great series of episodes, and so it's good for that reason.

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This is not the response I was expecting.

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I thought we were going to get a universal 10 out of 10, so we could discuss season 10 and put it to 10.

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But, you know, that's the joy of doing these episodes.

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So let's go back to the beginning, which is deep breath.

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And did we all see deep breath at the...

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State Theatre?

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Yes.

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No.

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I saw it at a theatre in Clapham with Matt Jones and Bexlovin.

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Yes, you went back yet, were you?

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I saw it in Washington, DC. with some friends at a gay bar.

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I think I saw it at the Dandy in Newtown.

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I don't think I saw it at the state theatre.

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I have this just very strong memory of leaving the state theatre going, I can't believe that they went with that music.

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I can't believe they went with those credits.

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Because wasn't there a Capaldi interview alive?

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like he was there.

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Yeah, Cabaldi and Coleman were both there, I think.

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I can't remember.

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They were.

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I guess I was at that.

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Yes.

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Was there the one where the ABC presenter who was doing the interviewing called mentioned a list of companions, including the Australian one played by Jane Fielding?

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possibly.

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There was that guy.

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He kind of lost credibility from that point.

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I can't remember.

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He's the same guy who interviewed Frone Lieberitz at the Opera House and got it all wrong as well.

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I haven't seen him on the radio since then.

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And yes, I am mixing my media.

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He also said that Nissa was played by Matthew Waterhouse, right?

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So it wasn't always...

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So when you left that episode.

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What were your feelings at that point in time with this new era embarking upon us?

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It is a little bit hard to remember.

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There's a way in which the 11th hour is kind of a perfect polished thing, you know.

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And so deep breath isn't that.

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Deep breath is doing something different.

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In fact, it's the opposite.

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It's doing the trick that robot does, isn't it?

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Where you drop the new doctor into the old doctor's show?

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That's right.

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I always feel like 11th hour is spearhead from space.

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Yeah, deep breath is robot.

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Yeah, I think that's kind of right, isn't it?

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Like, I think it's good.

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It's bleak, and maybe the doctor is a little bit too much, but it's Capaldi, and I think I loved him immediately.

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Were you concerned at all about the direction of this new doctor, like the fact that he wasn't as perhaps as likeable as the previous?

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Well, I think the show was concerned.

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You know, the way it is.

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I had concerns walking away from that going, that's the direction they're going.

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Like we've had 2 young doctors.

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We've now got an older, grumpier doctor.

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Like, you know, this is the Colin situation where he's perhaps not as likeable.

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I was concerned about that direction.

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And it's good to go back and revisit all of this because I really enjoyed this episode so much more and seeing the through line for series 8 when, you know, we very watched it.

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I really have appreciated so much more, because at the time I was much more concerned about, am I a good man?

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I think the show spends far too much time going over and over and over that.

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Like, I think maybe it needed to be put to bed sooner.

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The am I a good man thing?

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's dramatically valid.

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It's an interesting path for the character to take, but the fact that it's an basically entire season, and then part of the next one as well, like he really doesn't kind of become the doctor unfettered until his last season.

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It's also asking a question.

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We don't need an answer to.

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Yes, he's the doctor.

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He is a good man.

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Move on.

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The thing that I find a little bit irritating is the obsession about his age because I think it's a little bit demeaning to Peter Capaldi to keep harping on about the fact that, oh, you're so old.

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Well, Clara, want to stay with you because you're not hot anymore.

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You're old, that I find a little bit, yeah.

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And so I'm glad they left that behind fairly quickly.

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I think they, it's almost like they cast Peter Capaldi and then immediately had 2nd thoughts and think, oh, God, what have you done?

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And is this going to be a problem?

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And I remember someone we know who said he walked into a news agent, WH Smith, or whatever it was over there and suddenly saw the front cover of Doctor Who magazine with what he said was an old man on the cover and he went, oh, oh.

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I actually had the same kind of reaction.

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I think Todd, you and I came out of the state theatre wondering whether they were going to try and do the Colin Baker thing, but do it right, or at least not be interrupted by an unfortunate hiatus.

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Because remember the plan of the Colin Baker year, it was that he was going to become, you know, he was going to become softer over his 20 year run as the doctor because, you know, he was going to break all the records.

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But yeah, I didn't concern me per se.

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I was very happy with, yes, let's try something different.

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Let's try something else.

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And I think broadly speaking, it does sort of work.

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I mean, they kind of throw it away sometimes and bring it back.

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But, I mean, the character, the great thing is the character does evolve and change over the 3 seasons, and I think that's a good thing.

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I certainly like the series 8 characterisation a lot and how ambiguous it is.

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And I think it works better than the Colin Baker characterisation, partly just because it's better written and the...

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Might be a slightly better actor.

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And he's a better actor.

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Much as I love home.

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We all love Colin, but...

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I don't even think that Colin is to most valid comparison.

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I think it's Pertwee at his spikiest.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Peter, yes, I agree.

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I mentioned that a number of times where, you know, season 7 is very, and even into the beginning of eight, he's very different.

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It's Joe. It's the way that Bill humanises Capaldi's doctor.

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He's what Joe does to Pertwe's doctor.

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And even when Pertweese doctors being grumpy, we know he loves Joe, and so he has to be kind of a good guy.

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Simon and Nathan, you've said that it's your favourite season.

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Why is that?

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I like that it follows the RTD structure after some experiments in 6 and 7.

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We're kind of back to just doing a normal season finally, and that's a little bit of a relief.

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I like the through line a lot.

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It introduces Missy.

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There's a lot of missy in it, and I think that the, uh, the school staff and the rom-com staff is so close to what Moffatt probably always wanted to do, given the way his TV writing career started.

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So I just think all of that works really well.

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I just think it's got better episodes in it, because as I keep saying, that season 10 has not got that many.

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It's got some great episodes in it and certainly anything with Missy, it's just absolutely spectacular.

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It's got some great episodes, particularly the pilot and world enough in time, but there's a lot of them, which I go, I just don't care.

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I'm not, I'm not feeling it.

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It's all, they all feel like they need an extra draft.

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Then it makes sense.

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We were saying a lot of this all the way through, whether it was things like knock, knock, or even that back end, like with the eases of light and Empress of Mars.

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I'm not a big fan of any of those.

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Whereas I think that all that, that missy through line in series 8, I think, I think does work really well, especially because even though we know she's going to be the master.

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We all know she's going to be the master, but it's the way that'll unfold.

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I like the school stuff, the thing I don't like.

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The only thing I don't like about the school stuff is, of course, the PE, all the PE stuff.

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I think that is ill judged.

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Basically the caretaker.

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Yeah, and that's basically summarised by the caretaker, which is a woeful episode for me anyway, even though there's some great fun parts of it.

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But look, I, as I said before, I'm not saying season 8 series 8 is my favourite of the 3 because I love it.

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I'm saying series A is my preferred of the three, but it's a very, very subtle variation.

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Because even series 9.

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I love it.

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I don't know why series 9 doesn't get any love because I love that opening 2 part.

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I think it's fantastic.

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I adore all three.

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Coming back to him.

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There's a lot of strength in nine, which I love, but as we, we'll get on to tonight in a moment, but coming back to eight, like I had to think about whether it was 8 or 10 and I really like a lot of episodes a lot in eight.

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It's just, it's the am I good man thing.

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And it's a variation within episodes where the doctor can be really funny one moment and then quite harsh.

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And I found that a little bit jarring throughout.

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And as you said, like, there's episodes where you, like, Robert Sherwood. he's much more what he is much later on.

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And it sort of jumps backwards and forwards between things and that's interesting, but I also find it a bit jarring throughout the season.

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But certainly I think there's this perception that he's just very harsh all the way through.

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And like even in time heist.

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He's not.

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Like there's there's a lot that isn't, you know?

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I think so much of a season's success is actually a little bit outside of the showrunners purview.

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So if we think of a good season.

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It tends to be that there are good episodes dotted throughout.

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You don't get clumps of good and clumps of bad episodes.

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And so series 8 starts well with deep breath.

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I personally think Time Heist is really good.

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Others think listen is really good.

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Then we've got that one, two, punch from Jamie Matheson of Mummy on the Orient Express and Flatline, and then it ends with Dark Water and its 2nd half.

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And so all the good episodes are placed and evenly spaced out, and that leaves you feeling that it's a great season.

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I honestly think, too, that Kill the Moon is also a good episode.

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Congratulations, honesty.

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There are some seminars you can attend, yeah. to help you work with that too.

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I would like to.

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I would just like to say I'm glad that Simon and Nathan are on opposite sides of the room after that comment because I was on that episode.

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Yes, but I dislike that and think it's terrible not for everyone that sort of says, oh, it's terrible because the moon's an egg.

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No, that's actually not why it's terrible.

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No, no, I remember.

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Actually, every other...

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One, you're going to make the sewer mutants angry.

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Two, everything else that's horribly wrong.

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I guess we'll get back to the 1st half of the morphant era later, but the other reason, I think, why I have such a lukewarm reaction to this era, even though I think Capelli's a great actor, and even though there's so much I love about his characterisation to the doctor, is that for me, the whole thing is just a step down from what we've just had.

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Even the slight dodginess of series seven.

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I'll take series 7, 6 over any of the Capaldi seasons any day.

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I think that 5 and 6 are 2 of the strongest. are the 2 stronger seasons that the new show has produced by a substantial margin.

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I know that 6 doesn't get a lot of love, but I still think it's up there.

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I think 6 is great.

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I think it is really good.

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That's also where I'm coming from.

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It's a step.

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The whole capacity is a step down.

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Do you know, Simon, I might have once agreed with you, but actually on rewatching...

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We agree on many things.

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This is just that we enjoy the things that we don't.

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Yeah, I had the reverse experience, actually.

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I actually think that...

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Not a Tot experience.

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No, he's having a tot experience, right?

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Aren't we all do this?

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A bit moist on this side.

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Oh, thank you.

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I actually... you the mints in our sausage roll pastry, does it?

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That mints a lot.

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Todd, when Nathan said to you at the beginning of this recording, why don't you sit in the middle?

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Anyway, I had a slightly reversed experience assignment and that I actually think the Capaldi era is a little bit better than the Matt Smith era.

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There's not much in it, but I think 8 and 10 do elevate it above Matt Smith's years.

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I agree.

216
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I agree with you.

217
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My experience is that I really, really love the commolder is so much more and I have problems with the back end of 7 and I have problems with the weaker episodes in six.

218
00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:29.399
So for me, where, you know, it's a line ball thing between six, seven, 9 and 8 and I'm just edging slightly ahead for 8 and 9 over those other 2 series.

219
00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:39.419
One of our listeners, Kate Orman, and dear friends, has this.

220
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Watching Doctor Who requires us to suspend disbelief, of course.

221
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But have there been any stories that have strange or credulity, anything that was simply difficult to believe in the forest of the night?

222
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So this was an episode where I actually requested not to be on because I didn't want to be a massively negative voice about it.

223
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.200
Oh, it's great fun. should do it.

224
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Well, this is my shot, and I'm going to say sleep no more.

225
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Because sleep no more.

226
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You know what?

227
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.360
It has a lot going for it.

228
00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:13.379
The direction's amazing.

229
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:19.019
I think the relationship between Bethany Black's character and Blue Ando is it?

230
00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:26.940
Their love interest, I think, is one of the great tragic romances Doctor Who has done in the new series.

231
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:42.360
But with Sleep No More, it's, you know, it functions on horror movie logic, and they kind of use that as an excuse to not really explain things, and then at the end we're told, oh, maybe this didn't happen anyway, and we have the doctor screaming, none of this makes any sense.

232
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And I literally, during the credits turn to Rod, and I said, I have never been told by a writer, the last 45 minutes you've spent watching this are worthless.

233
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And I just, I'm just angry every time I think about that episode.

234
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:08.819
And the thing is, that's why I said, actually, James, I don't, I could, I could come on and be incredibly entertained or get incredibly bitchy, but I don't want to be because I feel like it is already kicked that one.

235
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I fairly.

236
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Think yourself lucky, Brendan.

237
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:12.420
It was supposed to be a two-parter.

238
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Yes, oh God.

239
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Oh, Mark.

240
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:20.099
Yeah, but I do think it's one of the few times that Mark 8 is really, really fumbles.

241
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It's fires.

242
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:21.660
Nathan?

243
00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.900
I want to challenge the premise of the question.

244
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Yes.

245
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:35.279
Because we have to suspend disbelief anyway watching this incredible... don't suspend disbelief.

246
00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:37.440
It's a TV show and you're watching it.

247
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:45.420
And Moffatt in particular is not creating a coherent world for these adventures to happen in.

248
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He's telling a type of story that involves these characters.

249
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And so you're never, ever invited to forget that this is a story and that it operates on the logic of a story.

250
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:10.619
And I think that that's kind of what Gatus is going for in sleep no more, for instance, that the whole scaffolding of the fact that it's a story is there on display.

251
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:12.059
And that's what Moffat does all the time.

252
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It's just a story.

253
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:19.019
And so I don't think anything happens that's so implausible that I can't believe it.

254
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.599
May I reinforce the premise of the question then?

255
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:26.160
Because I get what you're saying, that it's all a TV show and it's all made up, et cetera, et cetera.

256
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:30.059
But whenever you're watching any TV program, it needs to work consistently within itself.

257
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:40.019
There are rules that are set up, often in the 1st few minutes of watching a film, television show, whatever it is, where you accept certain things, that you can travel through time and space in a police box at the dog.

258
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Whatever it happens to bear.

259
00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:42.539
All the. established a world for you.

260
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You establish a work for you.

261
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:59.460
Basically, it's when the suspension of disbelief means that you are, once you've bought the fact that those incredulous things are real in the context of this story, those rules have to then be applied throughout the rest of the at least the episode that you're watching.

262
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:09.359
Doctor Who has the flexibility that different stories can mix that up and have completely different universes that the show visits and different styles of the program.

263
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:21.059
It's when you're in the middle of an episode where there are wires that get crossed because of whether the way it's written, whether the way it's being performed, whatever it is, that interrupts that, I think that is what we're talking about.

264
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.920
Not the fact that the moon is an egg, for instance.

265
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:24.299
Yeah, well, how about this then?

266
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.779
Because Moffat centres the stories very much on the regular cast.

267
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:32.039
We have lots and lots of episodes that don't have a large guest cast.

268
00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:43.319
And so the rules that are established are established within the well-drawn personalities of the characters.

269
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:54.660
And so one way that you could have your suspension of disbelief challenge is if one of them behaved in a way that was implausible or inconsistent with their previous behaviour.

270
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:03.299
And I still think it's the moment that Amy's baby collapses into a puddle of seek in front of her and she continues to travel with the doctor after that.

271
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:16.200
I was going to say, I think for you, I was thinking back to Resurrection of the Darwix, and you saying, if your script has, the doctor picks up a gun and unloads the clip into a creature, that's where the story's gone wrong.

272
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:20.400
And I think I think for you it's less about the conception of the world more about the conception of the character.

273
00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:21.299
Yeah.

274
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:27.420
But the point being that the question is still valid because it'll mean slightly different things for different people. right.

275
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:33.359
And so I suppose you must have, what was your answer then if you accept that that's a possible... it's that.

276
00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:36.900
If a character... sort of doesn't behave in the right way.

277
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:55.980
Think about the Russell era creates a world and it might be a world that is perhaps a little bit too small, but it's a world where all of these things have happened where people remember them and react to them and the adventures take place in that world and it's possible for that world to be inconsistent.

278
00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.000
But Russell's very careful about not doing that.

279
00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:01.859
Moffatt doesn't care about that.

280
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That's not his approach.

281
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:16.019
And he is more like a sitcom rider in that he has a stable of characters who behave in ways that we recognise as predictable or who act against type for one reason or another.

282
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:28.740
And so in that sense, I think, given that the world that Moffatt creates is the world of those characters, I think that when those characters behave inconsistently, that's where I'm going to find the biggest problem.

283
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:34.140
So, I mean, I broadly agree with what you were saying about sort of internal logic to a world that's set up.

284
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:41.819
There's a reason that I don't like in the forest of the night because there's a certain subset of Doctor Who stories that are telling an allegorical story.

285
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.900
I think Kilamoon is one of them, I think, um, in the Forest and I, obviously.

286
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:46.619
Gridlock.

287
00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:48.240
Gridlock, that's the one I was going to say.

288
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:52.259
Obviously, gridlock is a far superior episode to in the forest of the night.

289
00:21:52.319 --> 00:22:12.779
But when you're being asked to believe that this is set on the recognisable earth of Clara and Danny dating and being school teacher and that, and that the world has just forested over and that you're in the middle of Piccadilly Circus and you're just in a forest and then the forest disappears because we want to make a point, I don't buy that.

290
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.980
It's the kind of story where you think you don't have an internal logic here.

291
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:21.240
I'm being asked to believe things in the story that step outside of what it's setting up.

292
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.299
See, I don't think I have that limit.

293
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:31.079
And I think that having that limit is kind of asking the show to do less ambitious things, I think.

294
00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:43.019
I don't think it's asking it to do less ambitious things at all, because I think it is something like Mummy on the Orient Express, that that doesn't challenge my sense of my suspension of disbelief, because, even though it's a tradition.

295
00:22:43.019 --> 00:22:49.200
Even though it's technics, it's no difference to, you know, sailing ships going through space and enlightenment. we've done that sort of thing before, that doesn't matter.

296
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:53.640
It's because of the way, again, the way it's treated internally, it all kind of just works together.

297
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:58.440
I get what you're saying about, you know, Amy's baby turning into a bucket of sick being actually a far worse crime than anything else.

298
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:05.220
But I'd probably have to say in the forest of the night would be my my selection too, which is just because this just doesn't work for me.

299
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.019
And I don't I'm not buying it.

300
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:10.140
For whatever reason, even though I can see lots of other stupid things.

301
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:13.319
The other one I don't particularly like for the same reason is just Empress of Mars.

302
00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:16.200
I think it just stretches a bit too far.

303
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.000
But, you know, I could go on.

304
00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:21.299
They're all looking at Todd now.

305
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.200
What's your choice?

306
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.200
My choices are the end of kill the moon.

307
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:30.720
I just can't believe the egg gets laid in exactly the same place, right?

308
00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:33.299
I can buy it up to that point, but it's the same.

309
00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:36.059
Just, yeah, it just doesn't, that just doesn't work for me.

310
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:39.839
And it's the whole forest disappearing in the forest of the night.

311
00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.559
They're the 2 episodes from this era that I just...

312
00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:45.480
Killer Moon is such a divisive episode.

313
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:51.059
Do you think we ought to divide into separate corners of the room and turn on our lights if we like it?

314
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.000
turn on our lights if we don't like it.

315
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:55.140
Richard.

316
00:23:55.200 --> 00:24:15.660
Listening to all of you, I don't disagree with anything you're saying, but I look at the arc and the position that Gattus and Mark and Stephen come from, and that they really embrace YA, the new kind of fusion writing of fiction and allegory and fairy tale and run of the mill ordinariness.

317
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:25.079
And then I look at Russell's time, which is very much buried in the here and now and the substantive and the 3D and the soap, but then expanding on that.

318
00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:30.299
And I really appreciate where Stephen was trying to go and maybe it's the dictates of time.

319
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.539
It's always time to do dumb, but it is.

320
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.980
And, you know, the ideas that he had and some of them were really glorious.

321
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:48.180
There were some, you know, from Charles Foss to, I'm trying to think of the SF Riders writing about 20 years ago that, anyway, they were picking up on these guys, trying to bring that in.

322
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:59.099
And you can see it when you watch the San Diego Comic-Con footage of, you know, of our people in the audience who are all readers as well as or even before their viewers.

323
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:08.160
And I wonder if that's something that Stephen and Mark Gattus brought in, because I do see Markus, the 2nd unofficial writer for tone anyway, for these ideas.

324
00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:13.259
And yes, they don't succeed, and that's kind of impossible to do that in 45 minutes and on this budget.

325
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:17.039
But there are ideas just flowing constantly.

326
00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:29.099
And finally, with Capaldi, I was able to get out of my crawl, that whole business that we've talked again so much about with Amy's child and how a tub of silly putty can become River song.

327
00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:29.579
I don't know.

328
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:38.339
I don't remember how any of that works because I don't really, even though I watched it twice, it's just such a unholy mess of a misunderstanding of how to write for women.

329
00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:40.259
And that's just me saying that.

330
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:44.039
But anyway, where I'm trying to go with this is they're a brilliant concepts.

331
00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:46.619
They may fall, but my goodness, we are taken to places.

332
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:48.119
We've never been to in the show before.

333
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:57.660
It's interesting what you say about Moffat and Mark Gitas, almost being like an assistant showrunner, because that's what happened in the 1st series where Doctor 2 came back.

334
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:03.839
You had the people who brought in like Paul Cornell and Gaitas and Rob Scherman, and they were all looking back.

335
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:08.099
They were looking at the greatest hits of what Doctor Who was and what they wanted to do.

336
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:14.400
Russell was charged with looking forward and creating a series that would work in the 21st century.

337
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:16.799
I think Moffat and Gaitas work in the same way.

338
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:27.599
Moffat's always thinking about the future and where the series needs to go, whereas Gatus is this reassuring presence who always looks back at classic Doctor Who and references that and those kinds stories.

339
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:55.140
Yeah, I think that Gatus does challenge himself more as he goes on and that late Gatus is more interesting and does things that the show has never done before, but he does it from a basis of a real proper sense of what works in Doctor Who and what has worked and even when he's being experimental, like in Empress of Mars, which has a very strange premise.

340
00:26:55.140 --> 00:27:08.220
And we said that it would have been set in the far future and and the Earth Empire, rather than the British Empire, and deciding, no, damn it, we're going to do the British Empire, is absolutely kind of a moment of genius, I think.

341
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:17.579
I don't understand how that timeline works, though, if Mars is joining the Galactic Federation in the Victorian era.

342
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:23.220
Why do we have invasions of Earth by the ice warriors?

343
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.859
in the 21st, 22nd century?

344
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.220
If only there was some kind of boring Bible you could read.

345
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:31.319
Put all of that into perspective.

346
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:39.420
I think that big Mondassian colony ship just went past them at some point. and sent them back in time.

347
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:44.759
If I may quote an explanation from the life of Brian. splitters.

348
00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:02.700
We've talked a lot now about series 8.

349
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:05.819
Dr. Watt asks us.

350
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.000
Jenna Common was originally going to leave the show after last Christmas.

351
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:11.220
Would Bill have been a good companion for series nine?

352
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.819
No, but another companion would have been great.

353
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:19.380
Well, I think Shona was like the sort of the template in the Christmas special.

354
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:21.180
Yeah, it should have been great.

355
00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:26.579
And I do think she's a sort of prototype sort of Bill character in some aspects in the way she reacts to things.

356
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.500
Well, I mean, we talked about this at the time.

357
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:41.759
I was deeply concerned about coming into it, like, you know, Clara should have gone, but I was okay with Clara staying on for a bit longer having a, perhaps mentoring somebody else to be the companion, but the direction he took it in was, you know, a lot darker than that.

358
00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:55.079
Yeah, I agree with what Simon says, Bill couldn't have really come into series 9 as it was because for better or for worse, when Jenner decides to stay on, Stephen absolutely writes an arc for Clara.

359
00:28:55.140 --> 00:29:05.160
You know, yes, you could have created a new character for that arc, but the arc he writes is for Jenna, and it seems to be sort of, okay, you know, Jenna is becoming a huge star.

360
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:07.500
She's getting a lot of attention and she's decided to stay with us.

361
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:08.880
We're going to give her some really good stuff.

362
00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:17.579
And I think this is possibly why the season is less well regarded because it goes to some very dark places, but I can't fault the execution.

363
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:19.140
I agree.

364
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:26.579
It's very dark, but they've kept her on and they give her something meaty to do with the character.

365
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.799
It doesn't ask you to suspend your disbelief.

366
00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:31.920
Like you can believe that character is going to that place.

367
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:35.039
The love of her life has died terribly.

368
00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:37.440
She is heartbroken.

369
00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:40.079
She has, you know, nothing to live for, really.

370
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:42.480
Like, you can understand that she's got a death wish.

371
00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:46.380
She can understand that she goes to that very dark place because she's in mourning.

372
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.079
I mean the question is, is that very interesting?

373
00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:54.180
And I think it's the clash of the real world imperatives and the fiction of the show.

374
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.839
If Jenna Coleman turns around and says, yes, I'm going to stay for another season.

375
00:29:57.900 --> 00:29:58.619
That's fine.

376
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:00.480
You write another season for Clara.

377
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:09.779
If Elizabeth Slayton had said to Philip Hinchcliffe in 1976, I'll do another season, regardless of whether they thought they'd run out of stories for Sarah or that she'd reached her potential.

378
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.059
They would have held open the door and said, absolutely.

379
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.960
I don't think Clara necessarily had another season in her.

380
00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:21.779
I think what they do with the character is fairly, um, it's not all that interesting.

381
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.420
It's just because they have to continue the same character.

382
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.579
And I think that that was the problem.

383
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:44.519
You know, that was why I think our reaction to series 10 is so much more positive than perhaps the quality of the episodes would suggest because it's so delightful to have Capaldi introduce a new companion to the show.

384
00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:52.980
And it turns out, you know, I think I said this before, that Russell didn't expect to change the cast every year.

385
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.339
You know, he had what became a hit show.

386
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:17.819
He had good reason to believe that his 2 leads would just continue for years and years, and then Eccleston leaves, and kind of as a result, Billy leaves a year later, and it turns out that was great, and that was, you know, the best thing about the ITD era, is it builds up that sort of stable of characters by changing the cast every year.

387
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:19.799
Moffat doesn't do that.

388
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:28.200
And I think it like I wonder whether we lose something for that reason.

389
00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:29.940
I think we definitely do.

390
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.299
I mean, I love Amy and Rory, but I think they're there too long.

391
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:34.980
They shouldn't have come back for that extra half season.

392
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.119
I think Clara is done by her, by the time she's done that one. 5 seasons.

393
00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:39.539
I think.

394
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:45.059
Peter, did you say that the advertising campaign in Britain for series 9 is Dr. and Clara same, same or something?

395
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.000
Dr. and Clara in the TARDIS. same old, same old.

396
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.599
Which is a bizarre thing to say.

397
00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:55.200
It's willing, but it's, and maybe that's why we sort of feel serious.

398
00:31:55.259 --> 00:32:00.960
I was actually just looking through the episodes of series 9 and I may actually revoke my previous fate for series eight.

399
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:10.740
I might say series 9 as my favourite of 3 because whilst there's a run of dreadful episodes right in the middle of it, there is such good stuff, which things like Magician's Apprentice, which is familiar.

400
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:15.839
There's, um, uh, there's a igon in 2 part, which I've enjoyed much more this time around than I did on.

401
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:16.859
I think it's actually brilliant.

402
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.579
Sleep no more.

403
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:18.299
Sorry, Brandon.

404
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:32.160
And, you know, a brief interlude of the tedious face, the raven, and then you have the mind-bogglingly superb heaven sent, which is probably amongst the best 15, 45 minutes program the program's ever done.

405
00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:42.480
I love how differently people can respond because I would have said if I was going through Sirius 9, A brief interlude for the boring sleep no more before you get into the brilliant face the Raven.

406
00:32:42.539 --> 00:33:01.380
Yeah, I think that last 3 episodes of that season is great, and the one regret I have is that Sarah Dollard's episode gets cancelled, you know, at two-thirds of the way through, to be replaced by whatever Moffatt's doing to get Capaldi into Heaven's Sand.

407
00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:10.500
I would also say that the Me 2 parter is underrated, and I think particularly the 1st one is actually pretty good.

408
00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:12.660
I think the hashtag Me Too partter?

409
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.119
I think it's appropriately rated.

410
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.400
I'm going to agree with you.

411
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:20.579
I think the girl who died, I liked so much more this time.

412
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:25.619
The 2nd one, I think, has got some really great comedy stuff between Maisie and Peter. rest of it's rubbish.

413
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.940
It forced to beats at the end.

414
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:27.839
Oh, the worst way.

415
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:28.319
Totally.

416
00:33:28.380 --> 00:33:31.380
The Zigon 2 parter, I think, is really solidly great.

417
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.539
The 3 at the end are brilliant.

418
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:37.799
I adore the Dalek story, for all the missy stuff.

419
00:33:37.859 --> 00:33:41.339
But I absolutely love the flood.

420
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:42.480
Under the lake.

421
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:43.319
Under the lake.

422
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:45.059
Is that the reason this sofa is moist?

423
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:48.539
Just stop it, Peter.

424
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:50.279
It's a very warm day.

425
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:55.680
You'll get a Snogmarrier void, which I'm not going to... a reasonable moistness.

426
00:33:55.799 --> 00:34:00.660
But I absolutely adore that to parter, but and I know a lot of other people don't.

427
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:12.539
But I was saying, I was really surprised how many episodes in that season I really, really like. just how exhausted you are from the Saigon onwards because it's so insular looking that by the end of it.

428
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.099
So, 0 my goodness, I just want this to end.

429
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.880
And so you not because they're not good episodes.

430
00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:20.039
It's just because I'm utterly shattered.

431
00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:24.780
And so I'm really, if I actually go down and do all my lovely little ratings.

432
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:26.820
I actually think season 9 probably would come out on top.

433
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:29.820
If you have to do that, in terms of a feeling.

434
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:33.659
It the one that I just can't sit down and watch like the other 2 that I can.

435
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:41.639
I think that's why I love series 10 is because you touched on it before Nathan, it's a breath of fresh air.

436
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:43.800
It's it's a relief.

437
00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:51.119
It's a release because you've had this incredibly dark, like emotionally draining season before it.

438
00:34:51.179 --> 00:35:05.159
And then you get this wonderful, joyous character in Bill who just is enjoying having fun with her new sort of university professor friend.

439
00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:08.280
And it's oh, it's just so much fun.

440
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:13.619
And even though many of the stories are weaker, There's still a joy to watch.

441
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.880
I don't buy that.

442
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:16.980
I think a lot of the episodes in series 10 are really strong.

443
00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:18.239
No.

444
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:20.760
See, I think they're consistently good.

445
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:24.360
Without being consistently ordinary is the problem.

446
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:24.780
Most of them.

447
00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:25.860
I feel I'm sorry.

448
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:29.159
At the point, I was making pizza. like they're not bad.

449
00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:34.800
Some of them are more around the average area and some of them are utterly brilliant.

450
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:40.260
But to me, that season is more consistently higher in its quality.

451
00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:41.460
I agree.

452
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.260
And also it goes back to what I was saying about structure.

453
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.719
Series 10 has good episodes dotted throughout.

454
00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:53.219
Series 9 suffers by having that Me Too Parta in the middle, which a lot of people don't like, which kind of stalls the momentum.

455
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:56.340
I also think there is a problem with the structure.

456
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:02.699
The reason there's a problem with the structure is they were still doing half season DVDs.

457
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:07.980
So each one had to have 6 episodes because I think the Me Too parter should have been more spread out.

458
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:14.579
So it's like if you have the Dalek 2 parter, the girl who died under the lake before the flood, the woman who lived.

459
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.940
You know, the thing is, that still fits in 6 episodes.

460
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:18.780
So you could have done that.

461
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:23.639
And then you have the Zygon 2 parter, and then you have Sleep No More Face the Raven.

462
00:36:23.699 --> 00:36:31.500
It gives you time to miss a shoulder because what happens is you get to the end of the girl who died and the ending is such that.

463
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:32.579
Well, you know she's going to come back.

464
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:35.280
And then you come back next week.

465
00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:36.900
You don't have Clara.

466
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.280
It's called the woman who lived.

467
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.960
There's a small highway man in inverted commas running around.

468
00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:44.519
It's like, who's this going to be?

469
00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:46.380
Whereas if she's been gone for a few weeks.

470
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:48.780
You're like, when is she going to turn up?

471
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:56.579
And I think it would be more fondly remembered, if that were the case, because it just feels like a ploy to get Maisie Williams in, because she was hot property.

472
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:59.880
But isn't it doing the trick that the arc does?

473
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:01.679
Isn't that what's happening?

474
00:37:01.739 --> 00:37:06.300
Like you go between episode 2 and episode 3 and you head into the future.

475
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:10.739
I think techniques of structuring television programs has evolved a little since 1965 though.

476
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:13.800
Not in Doctor Who.

477
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:26.340
Look, my problem, I like the concept of the girl who died and the woman who lived in, and I don't mind the girl who died actually, and people who complain about Odin appearing in the sky and all that stuff, that's just nonsense, because it's all completely consistent, and Capaldi's reaction to it is great.

478
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.400
I think you do that episode as the comedy episode, which you do.

479
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:37.199
I think it's disappointing for me that then the woman who lived, I think it wastes the opportunity of, I think that needs to be a bit more sombre, a bit darker.

480
00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:38.760
I find it too trite.

481
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:42.539
And that's where it's like, this could be this concept is great.

482
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:44.340
Let's do it a lot better.

483
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:45.659
It just needed a better episode.

484
00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:49.079
Well, no, but everything about it.

485
00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:50.639
It is fine apart from, well, everything about it.

486
00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:57.599
It's fine in terms of the concept is fine, but they just make it too silly and I think that's unnecessary.

487
00:37:57.719 --> 00:37:59.820
But then you've got Rufus Hound in it.

488
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:03.599
So it's always going to verge on the on the silliness side of things.

489
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:06.239
I don't even know who that is.

490
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:07.619
No, I think you played the gum.

491
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.500
Sam, Sam Swift. still don't know who that is.

492
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:14.639
He's the meddling monk for Big Finish. you know who that is?

493
00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:33.780
I think we also lose out a bit in Series 9, and we didn't know this at the time, but we have found out since that a writer was working on a story called How the Monk Got His Habit, and it was going to be a Pre-Peter Butterworth Monk, played by Matt Berry.

494
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:34.920
Wow.

495
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:40.559
And he meddles so much that he actually has to become Rasputin.

496
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:43.619
Otherwise, that otherwise history will be destroyed kind of thing.

497
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:48.000
And losing that gives us the woman who lived, like that concept of Sam Swift.

498
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:50.699
And the whole Beethoven's 5th thing.

499
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:51.840
So why does that all fall over?

500
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:54.719
I believe the writer was committed to other things.

501
00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:58.079
That would have been so toasty.

502
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.460
Absolutely.

503
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:03.420
They absolutely should bring back the meddling punk and you know who should play him.

504
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:04.440
David Mitchell.

505
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:06.960
That would really work.

506
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:13.380
Disney would, you know, want to put someone with an even bigger face, probably. don't know.

507
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:19.260
I have been here for 200 years waiting for William Shakespeare only to find out he's me.

508
00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:23.760
Actually, that will be a really sweet duo.

509
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:28.440
Oh, we could have the massacre all over again.

510
00:39:29.099 --> 00:39:31.980
But no, I would love to see Matt Burying Doctor Who.

511
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:32.699
It's long overdue.

512
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:33.420
Yeah, yeah.

513
00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:35.159
He does a great Doctor Who theme.

514
00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.079
I have it right now.

515
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:57.599
So I think I think that there's a there's a failure mode that Moffat does, which is because he's focussed on his characters and because it's drama and drama is about bad things happening to people on the whole, that 9 falls into this hole where everyone's having a really dreadful time and that's hard to watch.

516
00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:12.480
And when you compare it to, say, River Song in the Matt Smith era, who is suffering this loss, you know, is anticipating the end of her relationship with the doctor, but she's still determined to have fun.

517
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:15.480
She's in prison, but she's fun and funny.

518
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.280
And there's a lightness to that.

519
00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:20.400
Even though terrible things are happening in the Matt Smith era.

520
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:26.219
It never feels quite as ground down as series 9 does.

521
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:28.019
That's just because of the doctor as well.

522
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.639
He is a lighter, brighter person.

523
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:30.179
Yeah, yeah.

524
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:36.900
Something that series 9 made me think of at the time and still does is the earlier seasons of The Walking Dead.

525
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.719
Because, you know, I fell off that show around season three.

526
00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:44.820
But especially the 1st season, it's 6 very tight episodes.

527
00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:50.820
There are characters who are quickly introduced and then dispatched, but they're well, they're well characterised.

528
00:40:50.880 --> 00:41:06.719
You care when they go, but getting through series 2, which was longer was in such a slog because it is so dark, even though the character is great, even though the story is great, even though the stakes make you invested, it's hard to get through.

529
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:09.900
And, you know, that was a big property at the same time.

530
00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:24.780
And I have to wonder if that style of TV storytelling that Game of Thrones Vikings, I think, was around at that time as well, then, you know, influenced Stephen Moffatt because something Richard always says is, you know, Doctor Who does what other shows do at the same time.

531
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:26.699
It looks around to what other entertainment's doing.

532
00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:27.900
Or 5 years after.

533
00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:29.579
Or 5 years, or 5 years after.

534
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:32.400
Yeah, you can't turn a cruise ship on a sixpence.

535
00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:37.380
But yeah, I have to wonder if maybe they then get to the end of this and go, oh, no, God, let's have some fun next year.

536
00:41:38.940 --> 00:41:45.360
Where do we all now sit with Peter as the doctor, having watched him all the way through again?

537
00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:46.920
What's his legacy?

538
00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:49.800
What's your feelings towards what is brought to the show?

539
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:52.800
I think he's my favourite.

540
00:41:52.860 --> 00:42:15.119
Like, Stephen Moffat has not always been particularly successful with casting in his TV shows over the years, although post-doctor Who, he's tended to be able to get better people in for his shows, but he, I think, casts the 2 best actors to play the doctor.

541
00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:15.960
Unquestionably.

542
00:42:16.019 --> 00:42:22.380
I was going to say Capaldi is not actually my favourite, but I think he might be one of the best.

543
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:26.159
Nuance colour and range, just what he brings to it.

544
00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:28.079
And that's why season 10 works for me.

545
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:28.739
It's Bill.

546
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:30.780
It's the refresher and Nardol.

547
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:33.360
And yes, absolutely, it's Michelle.

548
00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:36.239
But it's actually Peter responding to all of them.

549
00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:38.699
He's the showrunner, not Stephen Moffat.

550
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.360
The doctor is the showrunner as far as the viewer is concerned.

551
00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:44.460
And all of the subtleties.

552
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:45.840
And you can, I, I don't know.

553
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:48.239
I mean, we met at this because we know so much about it.

554
00:42:48.300 --> 00:43:07.559
But my gut, and what you were both just saying, is that Capaldi has watched all the horrors that have gone on behind the scenes for poor Stephen Moffat and Paul Mark Gatis and everybody else involved, and that mess that Stephen had to bring together, and even in, you know, in season nine.

555
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.599
There were huge problems going on for him.

556
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:16.980
And I think Capaldi just does that pert wee thing of the big chook with the big fluttery cape wings.

557
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:25.679
You can just see him bringing everyone together and the doctor himself calms down and knows he is in control and there is a subtlety in what he does.

558
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:32.159
And when he goes to the depths, it's absolutely to the depths and it's just a look in the eye, Capelli nails this season.

559
00:43:32.219 --> 00:43:39.179
Well, you were talking about the big fluttery chicken wings and season nine, I could only picture the time monster.

560
00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:42.480
Well, that is exactly what I was referring to.

561
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.219
Thank you very much.

562
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.039
A naked Benton.

563
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:49.139
James?

564
00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:52.380
I agree with everything that's been said about Capaldi.

565
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.440
He is he's my favourite. actor to play the doctor.

566
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:57.059
I wouldn't have said that.

567
00:43:57.179 --> 00:44:04.380
I mean, for many years it would have been Sylves McCoy, obviously. because of Sylvester was my doctor when I was a kid.

568
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:11.460
But Caboldi is just, like, there's so much variety in his performance.

569
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:18.539
There's so much colour there and he is the best actor to regularly play this character.

570
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:20.820
He's actually the Maggie Smith of Doctor.

571
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.599
And I don't mean, if you've seen Miss Jean Brody.

572
00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:26.039
Has anyone seen that recently?

573
00:44:26.099 --> 00:44:27.659
I'm in my prime.

574
00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:31.320
I know, and she does the Capaldi accent.

575
00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:40.980
It's a wonderful book, you know, Mural Spark was a Bletchly codebreaker and devout hater of other women. in that she would pick the characters of failure apart.

576
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:48.300
But Smith won that Oscar through the nuance and variety and just an eye, just the change of emotion.

577
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:51.420
And I was thinking of her when I was watching Capaldi this year.

578
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:53.400
Brendan?

579
00:44:53.460 --> 00:45:05.340
Something I found sort of rewatching his era in close succession for the podcast is, and I think this is something that comes from Peter Capaldi himself.

580
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.980
So famously, his doctor wears a very chunky ring.

581
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:13.199
And the reason he wears that ring is Peter Capello, the actor, did not want to remove his wedding band.

582
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:25.619
He adores his wife to the point that I've seen an interview at a convention where someone calls him a silver fox and then the interviewer has to explain what silver fox is and he gets terribly embarrassed and says, well, you'd have to ask my wife about that, you know.

583
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:39.059
But I think what he brings to the doctor is this very guarded love and affection, which he masks with contempt and rudeness and what have you.

584
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:45.659
But it's absolutely there from the beginning when he says to Clara, I'm not your boyfriend.

585
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:46.980
I didn't say it was your mistake.

586
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:58.019
You know, um, much in the same way that Sylvester McCoy says a big core of his character was thinking this is a very old person and everyone they know is gone.

587
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.239
And what does that do to you?

588
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:07.320
I think what Capaldi hooks into is that, but also he's loved all these people.

589
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:13.440
And so when we get to the end of his era and he doesn't want to regenerate, he doesn't want to go on.

590
00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:16.320
At the time, I really hated that.

591
00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:19.199
But watching it all sort of compress close together.

592
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.960
It's like, no, that is totally in keeping with this character.

593
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:25.920
He's not my favourite of the new ones.

594
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:29.699
That's still Christopher Eccleston, and I think it's the Sylvester McCoy effect.

595
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:32.099
He was my doctor as well along with James.

596
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.260
So it's like Christopher Eccleston brings it back.

597
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:39.360
He saves Doctor Who, like so many other people do at that time as well.

598
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.880
But yeah, there is no moment.

599
00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:45.599
I saw Peter Capaldi as a doctor where I'm like, no, you should have done that differently.

600
00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:47.820
And I'm including like very early stuff.

601
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.639
Like, I know people criticise his comedy and robot of Sherwood.

602
00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:52.980
No, I think he absolutely nails that.

603
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:53.820
They're wrong.

604
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:55.019
It's very nice to do.

605
00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:55.559
Yeah.

606
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:14.340
I think he's the one actor who doesn't put a foot wrong in his portrayal, and it's consistent and believable and concrete, and I find it so interesting that he's declined to return for big finish, and I think it's a matter of maybe, you know, it's like it's a perfect part of his life.

607
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:16.800
Why revisit it?

608
00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:22.320
You know, famously, he was so thrilled when Jenna stayed on because he adored Jenna.

609
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:26.519
And then Pearl comes along and Pearl has spoken about how much Peter adored her and welcomed her.

610
00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:30.000
I think for him, it's just, this is a perfect discrete 4 years of my life.

611
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:39.360
And he's actually said that in interviews since he's been asked to come back and said, no, to me, the doctor is something I inhabited.

612
00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:42.780
It was this moment in my life that, you know, it's a whole thing.

613
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:44.940
Yeah, I can't revisit it.

614
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:49.920
That was around him not so saying in advance that he wouldn't come back if invited for a 60th, I think, wasn't it?

615
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:58.739
I think also, wasn't that also to do with that argument that he wants his successes to have clear air before the previous doctor come back?

616
00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:59.340
So it comes back.

617
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:00.900
So I wouldn't necessarily say he'll never do.

618
00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.119
Oh no. anything, but certainly at this moment in time.

619
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.760
So, Simon, your thoughts?

620
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:09.539
Look, I agree with you that I think he doesn't put it foot wrong.

621
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:11.699
I don't think Matt Smith puts a fit foot wrong either.

622
00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:13.500
Disagree.

623
00:48:13.500 --> 00:48:16.860
I think he has one or 2 moments. victory of the Daleks, for instance.

624
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:18.420
I think he's not quite there yet.

625
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.920
Some of those sequences in Nightmare and Silver, where he's enough to do things.

626
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:23.400
Yeah, yeah.

627
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:24.659
Maybe I'll forgive some of those.

628
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.239
I don't see them as wrongfooted.

629
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:32.340
Like I've seen happened since the computer Capaldi era, as you say.

630
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:41.460
But the thing is that I was mournful when Matt Smith left because I thought, oh, they'd only got their act together and they could be, there could be another season.

631
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:42.659
He could have done another season.

632
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:43.500
He's so brilliant.

633
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:44.760
He's just such a perfect doctor.

634
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:45.360
I love him.

635
00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:56.039
I'm also mournful when Capaldi left for a similar reason, but I thought that Matt had been very well served by the material he'd been given.

636
00:48:56.099 --> 00:49:05.340
Whereas whilst I think that Capelli never puts a foot wrong, and I do think he's personification, the doctor is fantastic and there's a lot of subtlety there and he works with it all.

637
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:18.900
It's the fact that I don't think he's nearly as well served by the writing as he could have been and should have been and I think he saves a lot of things that would otherwise, in lesser hands, be dull, dull, dull.

638
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:26.280
That's what I was going to say earlier, Simon, the acid, the traditional acid test for any doctor is, are you bereft when they leave?

639
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.860
Or are you interested in what comes next and that's fine?

640
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.019
They've done their stretch and you enjoyed it and that's great.

641
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:37.559
Both of Mothat's doctors, Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi, you want that next season for both of them.

642
00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:39.300
I agree with you, Peter.

643
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.179
I absolutely adore Capaldi in the role.

644
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:44.400
And I think what you're saying, Simon, is right.

645
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:56.340
He saved so much, and I think for me, that is a huge thing, whereas I think Matt gets delivered material that he can do, and he does it well rather than there's moments where I think needs saving that he doesn't save.

646
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:59.940
And there's only a few, but it's enough for me.

647
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.079
I mean, I love Matt Smith.

648
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:04.019
They're my favourite 2 doctors by far. in the new series.

649
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:14.460
But for me, coming back to this watching whole era, seeing his evolution, the doctor's evolution, just the way he portrays that, his hair, his hair.

650
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:15.300
Yeah, totally.

651
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:16.260
The costume.

652
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:20.340
Like, it's really interesting to see, like, even with the costume, it's not just a set.

653
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.460
I'm in a costume, the same costume, right?

654
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:24.960
It's not silhouette.

655
00:50:25.019 --> 00:50:30.179
He actually changes shirts and all that sort of stuff and then he has the more formal and the less formal and all that sort of thing.

656
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:30.780
And I love that.

657
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.860
And the hoodie.

658
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.320
Yeah, it's fantastic.

659
00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:38.400
But I'd go further than what you were saying before, Simon.

660
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:40.679
It's not that he saves this material.

661
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:41.639
He lifts it.

662
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:43.440
Like, even when a story...

663
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:44.400
Okay, that's a better way of expressing it.

664
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:51.420
Yeah, even when a story is, yeah, he is nothing short of brilliant in it.

665
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:55.380
Can I say he brings new meaning to the concept of talking urgently in corridors?

666
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:57.000
He really does.

667
00:50:57.119 --> 00:50:58.320
That's a lot of it.

668
00:50:58.380 --> 00:50:59.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

669
00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:01.860
No, but you can see he's raised on that on that classic material.

670
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:09.059
He understands how to heighten a sequence where there's just 3 people standing by a flat wall.

671
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:12.179
And that's the important thing for us who are reared on the classic series.

672
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:19.440
I think Peter Cabaldi's doctor is a doctor who is looking back to the classic series and the way he's presented and we are primed to like that.

673
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:20.400
He's recognisable.

674
00:51:20.460 --> 00:51:30.719
Also, he brings to it something that, say, only David Tennant, could bring to the role, which is an understanding of the show as a fan.

675
00:51:30.780 --> 00:51:50.460
Like, no other doctors, apart from the 2 of them, have maybe the original Peter. our fans in the sense that we are fans, that he understands the DNA of the show because he has watched every episode a 1000000 times and can quote lines from the arc.

676
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:52.980
It's always the arc.

677
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.980
That's an elephant in that.

678
00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:01.679
Although they came 2nd or 3rd at the Comic Con, Doctor Who trivia.

679
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:02.400
Do you remember that one?

680
00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:04.920
Yes, I thought they came from practically last.

681
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:07.019
Third or so, it wasn't good.

682
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:09.239
There weren't a lot of arc questions.

683
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:15.360
It's the thing that I said before about Gaitas, knowing what worked.

684
00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:17.579
That's what Capoldi does.

685
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:39.300
And the place that I really noticed at this time is in The Girl Who Died, which is an episode about who the doctor is and what he does and where all of the structure is on display and Capoli is sort of rummaging through previous performances, actors in the role.

686
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:43.800
Tom, John, and just absolutely getting it 100% Ryan.

687
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:05.039
Peter is one of Stephen Moffat's doctors. lets segue into Stephen Moffat's time on the show.

688
00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:07.800
His other doctors, obviously, include Matt Smith.

689
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.019
Jim Broadband.

690
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:11.400
John Hurt.

691
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:13.320
Joanne, talk about the ones here.

692
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:16.260
Let's talk about John Hurt.

693
00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:23.280
What are your feelings now on his performance in Day of the Doctor and reflect on what Stephen had to do there?

694
00:53:23.340 --> 00:53:26.159
General witch finders, ask this question.

695
00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:31.139
How different would it have been to have 9 in Dave the doctor rather than the war doctor?

696
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:31.679
Would it have worked?

697
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:32.880
Sharper.

698
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:34.679
It would have been more astringent.

699
00:53:34.739 --> 00:53:35.880
He's brilliant.

700
00:53:35.940 --> 00:53:46.019
Hurt is brilliant and brings gravitas and history and like clavitives levels of heaviness and pain, but it's not the same.

701
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:51.659
He does the thing that we were just talking about with Capaldi in that he represents a classic serious doctor.

702
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:52.199
Yeah.

703
00:53:52.260 --> 00:54:16.019
Well, it's in fact what we talked about in twice upon a time where Moffat redoes what he does in the day of the doctor with the war doctor, because you've got Capaldi's doctor reacting against a classic series doctor, and Capaldi's doctor is slightly embarrassed by the classic series doctor and vice versa.

704
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:20.099
And that's definitely what's going on.

705
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:36.900
You know, with the stuff about waving your magic wands and saying timey-wimey, and all of that sort of contempt that John Hertz doctor has for these 2 successors and then he learns that they're heroes and why it's worth continuing on to become them.

706
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:39.300
And he's really similar to twice upon a time.

707
00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:40.380
Now that I think about it.

708
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:52.079
And so he does that job of being a classic series doctor, the way that John Sim in world enough and time does the job of being a classic series master as well.

709
00:54:52.139 --> 00:55:05.579
I think the disappointing thing, and I know why Moffatt didn't do it, is that it wasn't one of the doctors that we loved that pushed the button.

710
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:16.619
Imagine how we would feel if in story, Eccleston or Paul McGann had pushed the button and killed 1000000000s of people.

711
00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:33.300
And because Moffatt can't believe that the doctor would ever do that, when he gets hold of the show and when he gets a big enough event to superintend, he makes it so that that never happened.

712
00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:45.059
And so by giving it to a doctor that we don't know otherwise, he leaves our doctors kind of somewhat less genocidal than they might have been otherwise.

713
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:50.519
Having said a few minutes ago, that Eccleston is my favourite doctor of the new series.

714
00:55:50.579 --> 00:55:51.780
I was disappointed.

715
00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:54.119
I was disappointed that he chose not to come back.

716
00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:57.840
You know, I entirely understand his reasoning for not wanting to come back.

717
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:03.900
And also, I really respect the way both he and Moffatt tell the story of, you know, they discussed it in person.

718
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:09.900
They talked, and Chris then let him down in person and said, no, I'm really sorry.

719
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:13.440
I can't, but, you know, you have my blessing to use my image, et cetera, et cetera.

720
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:19.019
So getting past that disappointment, I think he would have been absolutely brilliant in it.

721
00:56:19.019 --> 00:56:24.179
It's impossible to say he would have been better than John Hurt because it's John Hurt, you know.

722
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:27.239
Yeah, John Hurt was a cartoon dragon in Merlin.

723
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:36.420
My point is, it would be like saying, okay, we can have Alex Kingston for this Christmas special or Maggie Smith.

724
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:41.219
You know, it's no insult to Alex Kingston to say, give me a Christmas special with Maggie Smith.

725
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:41.820
You know what I mean?

726
00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:42.719
Yeah.

727
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:50.760
But what I what I love so much about how he comes in and does it is he said in interviews that he hadn't watched Doctor Who since the 60s.

728
00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:51.840
He hadn't kept up with it.

729
00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:53.460
He didn't know anything about it.

730
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:57.900
And it was actually his wife who said to him, you do realise how seriously you have to take this.

731
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.000
Like, this is a cultural institution.

732
00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:06.239
It's not just running around in corridors and it's going to be fun, but you have to take it seriously.

733
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:11.099
And he says, you know, that made me actually think about who this character is, et cetera, et cetera.

734
00:57:11.219 --> 00:57:21.780
So he approaches it with the same level of commitment as any of the main actors who've played it, but also with the knowledge that he can do whatever he likes for 90 minutes and that he's out.

735
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:24.840
And that brings a little bit of a twinkle.

736
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:35.639
And I think possibly the scene than I would have loved to see Eccleston most in is actually the scene in the unit vault when John Hertz doctor is talking to Clara.

737
00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:37.800
And she figures it out.

738
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:44.579
I would have loved to see Eccleston play that because we have only seen that kind of chemistry with Eccleston in the role with Billy Piper.

739
00:57:44.639 --> 00:58:00.719
And I would have loved to see that with Jenna Coleman, who is a fantastic actor, attributed to the fact that there's like 3 doctors that she has brilliant chemistry with. would have made those scenes in the barn with the moment and the John Hurt slash Christopher Eccleston doctor, quite meaningful.

740
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:01.739
Oh, absolutely.

741
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:02.460
And you know what?

742
00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:08.579
I'm, uh, hats off to Moffatt for, you know, obviously he wanted Christopher Eccleston and Billy Piper together again.

743
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:10.139
He loses Christopher Eccleston.

744
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:12.900
He doesn't then say, oh, well, get rid of Billy Piper.

745
00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:13.800
I mean, why would you?

746
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:14.579
Why would you?

747
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:18.659
But also it would be totally sensible for him to then go, you know what?

748
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:21.900
This is a great opportunity to bring in Lullaward as the moment.

749
00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:22.500
Jackie.

750
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:25.559
Why does he always come back to poor old Jackie Lane?

751
00:58:25.619 --> 00:58:27.059
It's the arc connection.

752
00:58:27.179 --> 00:58:31.199
Yeah, I would have loved to see Eccleston back, but I'm not sorry we have John Hurtle.

753
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:49.199
So we're moving back in time now to Stephen Moffat and his legacy and what he brought to the show to begin with.

754
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:53.519
And of course, that's Matt Smith and Karen and Arthur.

755
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:56.460
How do you feel about all these things now, Simon?

756
00:58:56.519 --> 00:59:04.380
Well, I mean, he is the best show runner that the 21st century has had by a substantial margin.

757
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:14.639
And even though despite the fact that some of the lows are maybe a little bit lower than what we've had up to this point with one or 2 exceptions, I fear her.

758
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:19.019
But aside from that, the highs are just far, far higher.

759
00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:27.780
And I think what Moffatt did was he's the only one of the 21st century who I think truly understands what makes the show magical.

760
00:59:27.900 --> 00:59:34.199
And he's certainly not trying to dumb it down, which is the fear that I have with, I think of a lot of the RTD stuff, but we sort of discussed that.

761
00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:35.400
I discussed that at length before.

762
00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:39.239
My only regret is that he actually stays too long.

763
00:59:39.300 --> 00:59:43.440
Like JNT, who I think is also in his own way a very good showrunner.

764
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:45.840
I think there is not enough gas in the tank.

765
00:59:45.900 --> 00:59:50.579
Now, it's odd, because of course, some of the very last episodes that he does are some of the best he does.

766
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:51.480
Much like JNT.

767
00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:52.559
Much like JNT.

768
00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:55.739
In fact, maybe it's because he knows he really is leaving at that point.

769
00:59:55.800 --> 01:00:08.039
But I think, like, there is something unfortunate about staying that little bit too long and I think that it would have been nicer if you'd have maybe done 4 seasons and then handed it to somebody else, had that person been ready.

770
01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.860
Do you know I'm going to say I don't think he actually stays too long?

771
01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:13.860
I think it's really interesting that we have a showrunner.

772
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:21.179
The only showrunner slash classic series producer in the show's history who oversees 2 complete doctors eras?

773
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:25.739
And I really like the fact that you can look at the Matt Smith era, and you can look at the PT bold era.

774
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:35.039
They're both of the same length and the same Roth structure, and yet they are sufficiently different from each other that you can take away different things and enjoy things on a different level.

775
01:00:35.099 --> 01:00:41.340
I think to have that mastery of the series where you can do that and not just repeat yourself is something pretty wonderful.

776
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:42.360
Nathan.

777
01:00:42.420 --> 01:00:51.900
So I would say that there are significant flaws in his ability to be a showrunner.

778
01:00:51.960 --> 01:01:20.519
And I think while he is one of the best writers that the show has ever had, including the classic series, I don't think he's the best showrunner, and I think that Russell T. Davis does a better job of getting the show made during his era and of giving it a sort of consistent feel and getting it to be a big thing in the public's consciousness.

779
01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:43.920
And none of those things are things that Moffatt is that good at, and there are all kinds of reasons for that as well that we know about that Richard alluded to earlier, but the show does start to go off the boil as far as audience is concerned and some of that's just inevitable.

780
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:46.380
Yeah, after a period of time.

781
01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:54.659
But Doctor Who has the ability to reinvent itself and to kind of claw back or kind of renew its audience.

782
01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:55.679
Do you know what I mean?

783
01:01:55.739 --> 01:02:06.000
There's always 8 to 10 year olds graduating into doctors and if they were doing that in 2015, they were going to have a pretty rough time of it, I think.

784
01:02:06.420 --> 01:02:10.019
But I love how he writes.

785
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:12.960
I love what the show is like during his time.

786
01:02:13.380 --> 01:02:15.420
And that's what I'm talking about, not talking about.

787
01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:18.420
And that's why I think the whole modern concept of Showrunner is wrong.

788
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:25.320
It needs to be, you need to have the creative side and you need to have the the production side to say, make sure it's done on time.

789
01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:29.099
Make sure they're at conventions and make sure they're spinning the show correctly in the media.

790
01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:30.840
I agree with you from that point of view.

791
01:02:30.900 --> 01:02:32.280
He's not a great show runner.

792
01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:39.840
The creative direction of the show. just streets ahead of the blandness and cheesiness that we've had before.

793
01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:42.719
It would be better if they'd split those 2 roles.

794
01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:48.900
Exactly. head writer and and and that left all the production side of things to everybody else.

795
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:53.820
But I think that's the main failing of the way that the show is produced at the time.

796
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:55.380
And also Sherlock.

797
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:58.260
Like he has 2 of the biggest shows on television.

798
01:02:58.320 --> 01:02:59.400
But that's not our problem.

799
01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:02.639
You know, then say no to something.

800
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:03.300
You know what I mean?

801
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:04.800
That's enough. you know?

802
01:03:05.099 --> 01:03:10.500
I'm actually going to reverse what Nathan was saying about, you know, you're going to eventually go downhill.

803
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:15.119
I think Moffa actually staves that off in concert with Matt Smith.

804
01:03:15.179 --> 01:03:21.179
I think the time is for long off the boil was after David Tennant, this incredibly popular doctor left.

805
01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:26.039
Instead, they sustain that for the next three, maybe 4 years, and that's pretty impressive.

806
01:03:26.099 --> 01:03:28.079
Yeah, I'd say maybe 2 years, but yes.

807
01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:30.000
Well, until the 50th anniversary.

808
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:30.659
Yeah, that's right.

809
01:03:30.659 --> 01:03:33.539
They get the goodwill to the 50th based on the 2 years they've done previous.

810
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:34.440
Yeah, yeah.

811
01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:36.059
Maybe even Peter's 1st season.

812
01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:39.840
And I still think the parallel to the 20th anniversary applies, actually.

813
01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:43.500
It's sort of like we're here at this and maybe it's time to...

814
01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:49.860
And basically the media after the anniversary, the hangover after the 20th and 50th anniversaries, I think, are very, very similar.

815
01:03:49.920 --> 01:04:04.920
One of the things I've loved revisiting this is things that you've said, Nathan, regarding Stephen reacting to what he's done before and also looking at his mistakes and seeing what he, you know, how he can better himself.

816
01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:09.000
And I think that's been amazing to see and watch throughout this run.

817
01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:23.460
Yeah, I guess the other thing that I would say is that Russell T. Davis has a much clearer idea of what Doctor Who should be, and that is an advantage and a disadvantage, I think.

818
01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:27.300
I think because Moffatt goes careening all over the place.

819
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:36.840
You get these incredible highs, but what you don't get is, you know, the kind of consistency that you get from seasons one to four.

820
01:04:36.900 --> 01:04:40.320
Russell has clearer idea of what he wants Doctor Who to be.

821
01:04:40.380 --> 01:04:43.619
I think Stephen Moffat has a clearer idea of what Simon wants, Doctor.

822
01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:48.539
I think I think that's that's a little cruel.

823
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:51.780
I would suggest that if I may expand on that.

824
01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:55.860
Because obviously what I want Doctor Who to be is the correct vision for the show.

825
01:04:56.099 --> 01:04:57.900
Mostly silent.

826
01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:02.940
But in some respects, Moffat is a bit truer to that originally iteration, the show where it can be anything.

827
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:07.679
And I think with Rusty Davies era, he succeeds in making it modern television.

828
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:12.000
And I am kind of spitting those words out slightly because, well, no, because it's that kind of thing.

829
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:15.599
It's like because it just becomes like every other show on television.

830
01:05:15.659 --> 01:05:19.079
And the reason I loved Doctors who was a kid was because it was utterly different.

831
01:05:32.820 --> 01:05:38.280
I'll take full credit for this entire discussion, which I planned from the beginning, listeners.

832
01:05:39.780 --> 01:05:49.260
But one of the things that in preparing for this, I started reflecting on where all classic series fans, RTD years as well, as is Stephen Moffatt.

833
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:57.900
And it's interesting to see the different approaches, Russell has families, like blood relatives, like actual families.

834
01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:00.780
But Steven's much more classic series.

835
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:09.599
If you look back at the classic series and every single companion, they're either an orphan, a single person with no other family, their whole family is destroyed.

836
01:06:09.659 --> 01:06:16.380
It's really only Tegan who's got like an aunt, a cousin, a grandfather for long. in some cases.

837
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:21.780
And so all the companions are just singular, they're not in the real world.

838
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:28.440
Like they're not really connected in classic series, like you've got the unit family and that sort of thing. fit to work on sailors, really.

839
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:36.960
But when you look at what Stephen brings, again, you look at the families, like Amy's aunt, mother and father are barely in it, you know?

840
01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:38.940
Rory's the same.

841
01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:40.860
Like his father's only into episodes.

842
01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:43.260
Clara's family is in the background in a couple episodes.

843
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:44.519
But that's the point, isn't it?

844
01:06:44.579 --> 01:06:46.739
That's all goes with nuclear families.

845
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:48.480
Moffat goes with constructed families.

846
01:06:48.539 --> 01:06:51.659
Yeah, but how did you feel about that, Todd, watching the difference?

847
01:06:51.780 --> 01:06:54.659
Well, I'm just saying, like, it is a different thing.

848
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:57.300
Like, this is what is Steven's.

849
01:06:57.360 --> 01:06:59.460
He's constructing the families within.

850
01:07:00.539 --> 01:07:03.360
You've got your unit family, you've got the past, the, I can never say this.

851
01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:04.739
Patternoster?

852
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:05.280
Thank you.

853
01:07:05.340 --> 01:07:06.239
I'm just going to give up.

854
01:07:06.300 --> 01:07:08.579
You've got them as a family.

855
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:18.599
You've got, you know, obviously Amy Rory and River, like Stephen is very much, I think, in line with original who, which makes it very different to the real world.

856
01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:20.880
The Dr. Nardol, Bill, and Bill's mother.

857
01:07:20.940 --> 01:07:24.239
Exactly. family feel to it.

858
01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:26.219
Yes, they're like the constructed family.

859
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:27.840
But yeah, Russell C.

860
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.300
Davis, he loves his soaps and it's constructed around that.

861
01:07:30.300 --> 01:07:34.380
And that's probably one of the reasons why I don't like his Europe very much because soaps have absolutely no interest for me.

862
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:37.199
That's why I was watching Doctor Who are not Neighbours, you know what I mean?

863
01:07:37.260 --> 01:07:44.280
Whereas Moffat, of course, is the sitcom situation where you got these disparate groups of people who are sort of thrown together in situations and you say funny lines.

864
01:07:44.340 --> 01:07:46.380
So it's that dichotomy as well.

865
01:07:46.380 --> 01:07:51.840
Yeah, you've got your unit family with Peter's favourite actress, Jennifer Osgood.

866
01:07:51.900 --> 01:07:55.739
And yeah, it's just it just gives a different feel.

867
01:07:55.800 --> 01:07:58.739
Like it's not as real worldly.

868
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:03.780
I don't know, connected to the real world and we talk about the audience that are tapering off and that sort of thing.

869
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:17.699
I think, though, there is a way in which Moffat is absolutely completely different from the classics series, and he has, in unguarded moments, expressed various degrees of contempt for the classic series, in fact.

870
01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:20.279
And it...

871
01:08:20.340 --> 01:08:20.699
No.

872
01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:38.399
But it is that his regular characters are the focus in a way that's nearly never true in the classic series until perhaps Ace, where the characters perform plot functions, essentially, in classic who?

873
01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:45.180
And even when people are leaving, the story isn't about how they've grown or anything about them as a person.

874
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:47.039
Oh, where the hell is Croydon?

875
01:08:48.539 --> 01:08:52.140
Except in the very best iterations, like say Joe Grant.

876
01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:53.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

877
01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:54.960
I think Joe's the close.

878
01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:57.539
I was thinking that to Katie's portrayal as well.

879
01:08:57.600 --> 01:08:59.760
It's just the closest to the modern era.

880
01:08:59.819 --> 01:09:02.579
Maybe that's why she's just so much, I don't know.

881
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:06.720
I mean, I'm a big, big finish, big, big, big, big finish subscriber.

882
01:09:06.779 --> 01:09:08.220
Katie's in everything.

883
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:19.619
I do often feel, though, that all the modern Shea runners, um, both Moffat and particularly Moffat and ITD, I think there is a certain shame there about the original series.

884
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:25.199
They still remember being teased for liking it at school because it's a bit silly, it's a bit stupid.

885
01:09:25.319 --> 01:09:38.159
And I think they try and deal with that by, by unfortunately, sometimes leaning and Moffatt is guilty of this too, but Russell, particularly leaning into the silliness and the stupidity, because the 1st time round, it was often an accident.

886
01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:42.840
And the 2nd time round, though, they're doing it deliberately, which I think is like, well, why would you actually deliberately want to do that?

887
01:09:42.899 --> 01:09:46.020
Yeah, you kind of they're going, no, don't react against that. was great.

888
01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:46.920
Yes, exactly.

889
01:09:46.979 --> 01:09:52.560
Yeah, I mean, you know, they're people who've written TV before they came to ride.

890
01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:56.520
And so they know what real TV has to be like.

891
01:09:56.579 --> 01:10:00.659
And it can't be like the classic series in certain ways.

892
01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:04.859
Well, Jane Baker had written lots of real TV before they came to...

893
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:05.340
Great.

894
01:10:05.399 --> 01:10:06.239
Shut up.

895
01:10:06.300 --> 01:10:08.100
They are, in fact, one day.

896
01:10:08.220 --> 01:10:08.939
If you say so.

897
01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:11.460
Yeah, if we want the other example.

898
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:16.979
It's Bob Baker and Dave Martin had not written much real TV before the claws of Axos. on Doctor Who either.

899
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:19.199
Anyway.

900
01:10:19.260 --> 01:10:20.279
I don't know.

901
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:21.960
I don't know what the comparison is there.

902
01:10:22.020 --> 01:10:26.100
Something I find so interesting about the Moffeteera is the finales.

903
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:33.600
With the exception of Darkwater Death in Heaven, they're all about a small group of people, you know?

904
01:10:33.659 --> 01:10:40.020
And yes, you might have a flood of cybermen, but really the story is about Bill, Missy, and the master, you know?

905
01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:45.420
And I remember having that thought when I was watching The Big Bang for the 1st time.

906
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:51.720
And the word that popped into my head was this is so insular compared to what we got under Russell T. Davies.

907
01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:56.340
And I didn't necessarily mean that in a pejorative sense, but it was inward looking.

908
01:10:56.399 --> 01:11:00.239
It comes back to what you were saying about sort of how he focusses on character.

909
01:11:00.300 --> 01:11:07.619
And for me, that leads to what I think is a big flawed part of his era, which is actually something Simon loves.

910
01:11:07.680 --> 01:11:13.979
I think the arc of series 6 for me is the Nadir of the new series.

911
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:15.239
I think it's too dark.

912
01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:16.260
I think it's too cruel.

913
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:23.279
But at the same time, I cannot fault the performances, it gives us, I cannot fault the character work it does.

914
01:11:23.340 --> 01:11:29.460
I think then the fact that we kind of sweep it under the rug a bit except for a few lines in asylum of the Daleks is a bit of a mistake.

915
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:34.140
But at the same time, I'm saying, I don't want that, but I also don't want you not to acknowledge that, Mr. Boffett.

916
01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:35.100
He can't win, you know.

917
01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:43.859
So he definitely does react to the feedback he gets to the point that he quit social media, which I think is a thing Russell didn't have to deal with.

918
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:44.880
There was no Twitter.

919
01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:49.500
I think 2012, 2000, 2000, anyway, yes.

920
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:49.979
Yeah.

921
01:11:50.039 --> 01:12:05.880
And, you know, it really takes off in 2019, 2010 when he's on his way out, whereas Moffat was on there as a public face and just copying a lot of harsh criticism, you know, and I'll be the 1st to put my hand up and say, I'm critical of stuff he does in series 6, but I wouldn't go on social media and at him.

922
01:12:06.060 --> 01:12:08.640
Stephen Moffatt, I don't like what you're doing.

923
01:12:08.699 --> 01:12:11.579
And he does learn and he includes that.

924
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:14.699
I say it's a response to fans, but maybe it's just a response to himself.

925
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:18.119
Maybe he's looking at his own work and saying, oh, actually, I could do that better.

926
01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:20.399
He seems to be very self-aware.

927
01:12:20.460 --> 01:12:22.619
Or maybe he's just saying, oh, I did that last time and it's just something different this time.

928
01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:23.520
Yeah, absolutely.

929
01:12:23.579 --> 01:12:28.260
I mean, but those season finales that he does. are just streets ahead of the stuff that we get from the previous era.

930
01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:29.760
I don't feel, yeah.

931
01:12:29.819 --> 01:12:30.960
Yeah, I'm not sure about that.

932
01:12:31.020 --> 01:12:36.239
And I had the same feeling about the Big Bang, which I think is really great now.

933
01:12:36.420 --> 01:12:43.680
But I remember being shocked that it's just 5 people walking around a museum. sort of inverts things, doesn't it?

934
01:12:43.739 --> 01:12:45.779
has like the big season finale in the 1st episode.

935
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:47.279
Yes, yes, yeah.

936
01:12:47.340 --> 01:13:03.659
Whereas one of the things that RTD does, which was just a peculiar pleasure, and which mirrored the profile of the show itself, that your alien invasions didn't happen in a priory or...

937
01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:04.800
Yes, exactly.

938
01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:05.640
Exactly.

939
01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:06.779
But far better.

940
01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:10.619
But when they happen on the world stage, because we can finally do that.

941
01:13:10.739 --> 01:13:11.939
We can do cable news.

942
01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:17.039
It's not just cable news, but also, because it was always a thing that you could have done.

943
01:13:17.100 --> 01:13:22.439
I mean, all of London gets evacuated in invasion of the dinosaurs.

944
01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:34.319
Like you could choose to do that, but most of the time you don't, and where he says, all right, we're going to have a big spectacle of the kind that you have never seen on TV before and you've never seen in Doctor Who before.

945
01:13:34.380 --> 01:13:40.859
It was the one reason why I think that even though aliens of London and World War 3 doesn't work completely.

946
01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:44.159
I love it so much because it's going somewhere so new.

947
01:13:44.220 --> 01:13:45.720
And so those finale.

948
01:13:45.779 --> 01:13:56.039
So all those big, dumb, blaring, wonderful things that all ended in a little sort of personal tragedy of one kind or another because we're changing cast at the end of each season.

949
01:13:56.100 --> 01:14:03.720
And so things like, for instance, death in heaven, I don't think really works. because it is too much like that.

950
01:14:03.779 --> 01:14:10.739
And because what we're talking about, the character stuff that we're talking about is weird and not very interesting.

951
01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:14.220
Whereas I think dark water is surpassingly brilliant.

952
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:15.659
So I don't know.

953
01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:26.220
I think that that is a flaw that the finales can be great in all sorts of ways, but I do miss the the scale.

954
01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:27.659
I remember missing London.

955
01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:32.880
One of the great places of day of the doctor was London is back and that's pretty great.

956
01:14:32.939 --> 01:14:41.340
I will say Hellbent still gives me this whole tension because I freaking love a galafray story.

957
01:14:41.399 --> 01:14:43.079
Like, except for fucking Infinity.

958
01:14:43.619 --> 01:14:48.479
But actually. 1st 5 minutes of mysterious planet.

959
01:14:48.960 --> 01:14:52.619
Hey, trials are 7 out of 10 for me, isn't it?

960
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:54.479
But here's the thing.

961
01:14:54.539 --> 01:15:00.539
I remember watching Hellbent, and I think it's the bit where the doctor shoots the general.

962
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:12.060
And I just found myself suddenly thinking, what is someone who loved Doctor Who when Catherine Tate was in it making of this, but, you know, doesn't own the discontinuity guide?

963
01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:13.800
And then I thought, I don't care.

964
01:15:13.859 --> 01:15:15.119
I love this stuff.

965
01:15:15.180 --> 01:15:16.500
Great outcome.

966
01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:34.439
But, you know, that Moffat gives me that kind of tension in that he's not making it for the soap crowd, as you might say, he's still doing his best to make it accessible for people who don't consider themselves a science fiction fan or a Doctor Who fan.

967
01:15:34.500 --> 01:15:35.579
It still has to be accessible to them.

968
01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:38.579
But at the same time, he can't just do what Russell T Davies did.

969
01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:41.579
So he has to do more varied stuff.

970
01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:45.600
That's what so much talk about the moth era of do the arcs work, do they not?

971
01:15:45.659 --> 01:15:48.720
It just comes down to what I was saying earlier about episode quality.

972
01:15:48.779 --> 01:15:57.180
Series 6 and series 9 are viewed as lesser entries because I don't think the episode quality is there to support the arc.

973
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.680
So in series 6, you think it's been nasty about Amy's because not handled very well.

974
01:16:01.680 --> 01:16:04.319
And let's kill Hitler is a problematic episode.

975
01:16:04.380 --> 01:16:10.079
If that was a good episode that delivered on what I was trying to do, we'd think of the arc much more positively.

976
01:16:10.140 --> 01:16:11.399
Very true.

977
01:16:11.460 --> 01:16:17.340
It's just that whole run of episodes in series 6 where you wish someone would turn the goddamn lights on.

978
01:16:17.939 --> 01:16:20.100
That's true.

979
01:16:20.159 --> 01:16:24.659
What do you think of Stephen's handling of classic series monsters?

980
01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:28.380
The Daleks, the Cybermen, the Ice Warriors, the Santara.

981
01:16:28.439 --> 01:16:33.600
I think that he's not interested in doing Dalek stories or Ice Warrior stories or anything like that.

982
01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:38.399
And I think that's good because we've got a lot of them.

983
01:16:38.460 --> 01:16:41.460
And so he uses them in sort of different ways.

984
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:49.140
I thought that he had probably rendered the Santarins unuseable after Strax.

985
01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:58.560
But I'm pleased to be proved wrong because I think war of the Sontarans is probably the best episode of that season.

986
01:16:58.619 --> 01:17:04.260
And certainly the Santarians work on some functional level still in it.

987
01:17:04.319 --> 01:17:05.939
So I don't know.

988
01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:09.060
He isn't interested in Daleks at all, is he really?

989
01:17:09.119 --> 01:17:10.739
No, I agree with you.

990
01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:18.779
Like, you know, Davros is a character, but not the Daleks. secondary and he tends to use them as one of things or the human dialect in a sort of different way.

991
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:22.199
He's certainly much more interested in the cyberman as...

992
01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:25.680
And the Mavellans. a good thing. absolutely.

993
01:17:25.739 --> 01:17:27.000
Alpha Centauri.

994
01:17:27.060 --> 01:17:29.399
I think he's more interested in telling a story.

995
01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:32.819
And if those aliens or those monsters fit into that story.

996
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:33.539
Great.

997
01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:34.619
We can make that work.

998
01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:39.539
But it's not, yeah, he's just not just doing a Dalek story for the sake of doing a Dalek story.

999
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:43.920
He's doing it because he's interested in what he can do with a character like Davros.

1000
01:17:43.979 --> 01:17:48.600
Do you know who I'm really surprised Mothat didn't do a sequel for?

1001
01:17:48.659 --> 01:17:49.800
The Mara.

1002
01:17:49.859 --> 01:17:51.060
Yeah.

1003
01:17:51.060 --> 01:17:51.359
Yeah.

1004
01:17:51.420 --> 01:17:53.039
I think so much.

1005
01:17:53.100 --> 01:17:55.800
I think the Murr is perfect as it is.

1006
01:17:55.859 --> 01:17:57.239
I don't think it needs anything.

1007
01:17:57.300 --> 01:17:59.340
And in fact, I was...

1008
01:17:59.399 --> 01:18:08.819
I was slightly annoyed by the reference to the Mara in the season one finale this year because I think it should probably have just been left alone.

1009
01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:17.579
Stephen's known as Mr. Christmas.

1010
01:18:17.640 --> 01:18:19.199
He's coming back for Christmas this year.

1011
01:18:19.260 --> 01:18:21.300
Who calls him Mr. Christmas?

1012
01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:22.800
Me, I thought it was...

1013
01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:24.600
Sorry, Nathan calls in.

1014
01:18:24.779 --> 01:18:27.600
Thank you for that correction, Peter.

1015
01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:33.960
As a whole, what do you think of his contribution to the Christmas specials of which there are many.

1016
01:18:34.020 --> 01:18:36.060
Does he do 10 or 11?

1017
01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:37.859
How many did he do Christmas Carol?

1018
01:18:37.920 --> 01:18:40.319
The Doctor Widow in the wardrobe, the snowman?

1019
01:18:40.380 --> 01:18:41.159
The doctor?

1020
01:18:41.279 --> 01:18:42.779
Last Christmas.

1021
01:18:42.840 --> 01:18:43.859
Husbands of River Song.

1022
01:18:43.920 --> 01:18:45.840
The Return of Dr. Mysterio Twice Upon a Time.

1023
01:18:45.899 --> 01:18:46.260
There you go.

1024
01:18:46.380 --> 01:18:54.300
Well, I mean, obviously there are some of the absolute most spectacular Christmas specials in there, like a Christmas carol, and I actually probably think twice upon a time now, frankly.

1025
01:18:54.779 --> 01:18:55.319
Time of the doctor.

1026
01:18:55.380 --> 01:18:57.180
Last Christmas, it was beautiful.

1027
01:18:57.239 --> 01:18:58.380
Last Christmas, I think is really good.

1028
01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:00.359
Dr. Woodrow in the wardrobe.

1029
01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:11.279
On the other end of the spectrum for me, and the husbands of River song is actually, I thought it was just bad rather than terrible when I watched it this time round. that an improvement?

1030
01:19:11.340 --> 01:19:12.000
Yes.

1031
01:19:12.060 --> 01:19:20.039
Oh, yes, bad, not dire because it's actually, it's just the 1st half because the 2nd half is, is actually beautiful and it's just ruined, unfortunately, by the 1st half.

1032
01:19:20.100 --> 01:19:22.979
But I think he actually does a really good job 98% of the time.

1033
01:19:23.039 --> 01:19:24.420
Yeah, yeah.

1034
01:19:24.479 --> 01:19:33.659
I think, you know, the idea that we run out of Christmas things are we should do Christmas because it's stupid that every 13th episode of Doctor Who is set at Christmas.

1035
01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:34.619
It snows at the end.

1036
01:19:34.680 --> 01:19:35.939
Like, that's ridiculous.

1037
01:19:36.060 --> 01:19:37.380
No, that's my point.

1038
01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:39.300
Yeah, that's a ridiculous point.

1039
01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:40.500
You should wake up to yourself.

1040
01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:44.520
Sometimes not even every 8th episode, can I say?

1041
01:19:44.579 --> 01:19:49.260
I mean, like in November, there's Christmas carols in Meyer.

1042
01:19:49.319 --> 01:19:51.840
That's I should wake up to a time.

1043
01:19:52.920 --> 01:19:54.779
You think that's bad.

1044
01:19:54.840 --> 01:20:00.659
When I went to David Jones back in my early 20s, one Christmas, we put the decorations out at the end of August.

1045
01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:02.039
Yes.

1046
01:20:02.100 --> 01:20:03.000
Yes.

1047
01:20:03.180 --> 01:20:04.800
Did they sell?

1048
01:20:04.859 --> 01:20:06.899
So I think Christmas is super important.

1049
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:09.720
It's absolutely a thing that Doctor Who should be known for.

1050
01:20:09.779 --> 01:20:21.539
And, you know, Moffat does that thing where he equates Santa and the doctor, they both come at Christmas and they both bring sort of presents and things and make people's lives better.

1051
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:28.319
I think the Christmas special in Russell Theatre was of sort of variable quality.

1052
01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:48.600
But I think that a Christmas carol, and I think I said this at the time, as a pretty fair claim to being the best Doctor Who story at that point, like, and it depends on kind of how I'm feeling on a particular day, but I think that that is an extraordinary and perfect thing, that episode.

1053
01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:52.800
There's no doubt that the Christmas episodes of the modern era are some of the best.

1054
01:20:52.920 --> 01:20:55.439
But there's also some of the worst.

1055
01:20:55.439 --> 01:21:01.500
And I think it's just the kind of story that it dictates Doctor Who has to tell on Christmas Day.

1056
01:21:01.560 --> 01:21:02.819
I don't have that much time for.

1057
01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:06.720
It's like, can't we have a more Doctor Who episode for every 13th episode?

1058
01:21:06.779 --> 01:21:15.899
I agree with that the point you're making there, Peter, which is why I really enjoy twice upon a time because it just happens to happen at Christmas for part of it.

1059
01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:16.680
The snowmen.

1060
01:21:16.800 --> 01:21:18.300
Okay, we've got Victorian London.

1061
01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:19.560
It's just a backdrop.

1062
01:21:19.619 --> 01:21:20.760
It's not about Christmas.

1063
01:21:20.819 --> 01:21:23.039
It's Christmas Eve, but it's not about Christmas.

1064
01:21:23.100 --> 01:21:23.939
That's right.

1065
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.939
Comparing them to the Russell Christmas specials.

1066
01:21:27.060 --> 01:21:32.520
The Russell Christmas specials are everyday Doctor Who stories with Christmas trimmings.

1067
01:21:32.579 --> 01:21:37.199
And also it's kind of like Russell's Christmas specials go, giant thing is above London.

1068
01:21:37.260 --> 01:21:38.819
Giant thing is below London.

1069
01:21:38.939 --> 01:21:41.579
Giant thing is gonna crash into London.

1070
01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:45.479
Um, giant Victorian, London.

1071
01:21:45.539 --> 01:21:47.039
Victoria, London.

1072
01:21:47.100 --> 01:21:49.140
John Sim with a jetpack.

1073
01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:55.560
Whereas Stephen Moffat for most of his Christmas specials really goes, okay, what's Christmas about?

1074
01:21:55.619 --> 01:21:58.319
Like, I'm going to retell a Christmas carol.

1075
01:21:58.380 --> 01:22:08.100
I'm going to have a family who aren't going to find out about a loss because it's Christmas and you can't do that on Christmas.

1076
01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:11.880
I'm going to have the doctor stay on a planet called Christmas.

1077
01:22:12.239 --> 01:22:18.420
It's it's kind of interesting that when you look at the 2 showrunners Christmas specials together.

1078
01:22:18.479 --> 01:22:24.060
Russell's Christmas specials, indeed, with the Runaway Bride, started as an episode just within the season.

1079
01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:27.000
But it gets moved to Christmas.

1080
01:22:27.060 --> 01:22:37.739
It gets the casting of Catherine Tate to give it the Christmas boost, but there's nothing especially Christmassy about those stories, whereas most of Moffatt's Christmas specials don't work if they're not a Christmas special.

1081
01:22:37.859 --> 01:22:44.819
And I know Dr. Widow and the Wardrobe and Husbands of River Song get a lot of Flack.

1082
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:48.060
They're actually my favourite Moffat Christmas specials because I am a soppy git.

1083
01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:53.520
I love husband's forever song for the same reason as you, Brandon.

1084
01:22:53.579 --> 01:23:00.479
And I actually really enjoy, although it's not the best, the line between the wardrobe.

1085
01:23:00.539 --> 01:23:00.840
Sorry.

1086
01:23:00.899 --> 01:23:04.439
It's just, I can never get the name of the story right.

1087
01:23:04.500 --> 01:23:06.239
The Doctor, the Widow, and the War.

1088
01:23:06.300 --> 01:23:08.340
Think of the name of the show you're watching.

1089
01:23:09.119 --> 01:23:10.739
Take it from there.

1090
01:23:10.800 --> 01:23:26.760
Flaws aside, I love that story because it's about a family and it's about a mother trying to protect her children and it's there's some really something really emotionally valid there, I guess.

1091
01:23:27.479 --> 01:23:30.479
And then it and then it doesn't end with the tragedy.

1092
01:23:30.539 --> 01:23:34.800
Because it's Doctor Who, because, you know, because it's Christmas.

1093
01:23:34.859 --> 01:23:38.760
Yeah, because it's Christmas, he manages to save, save their father.

1094
01:23:38.880 --> 01:23:42.119
Are you sure you don't like it just because it's got the mum from outnumbered in it?

1095
01:23:42.180 --> 01:23:43.439
I never watched Outnumbered.

1096
01:23:43.500 --> 01:23:43.800
Okay.

1097
01:23:43.859 --> 01:23:44.819
It's got Bill Bailey.

1098
01:23:53.880 --> 01:23:58.979
So what are your final thoughts on the Stephen Moffat era of the show?

1099
01:23:59.039 --> 01:24:00.300
We were lucky to have him.

1100
01:24:00.359 --> 01:24:01.260
Yeah.

1101
01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:04.199
Yeah, and I think we were lucky to have him for quite so long.

1102
01:24:04.260 --> 01:24:28.859
I love the RTD era more, um, and I think, you know, it's got people like Camille Kajuri and, you know, the companions, the moms, and just that sheer joy at having the show back and having it so incredibly well documented, having Julie and Russell and all of those people, there was something just really quite magical about that era.

1103
01:24:28.920 --> 01:24:33.779
And the mafia is sort of sprawling and rhubarbative and complex.

1104
01:24:33.840 --> 01:24:37.500
But it's really amazingly great.

1105
01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:43.439
And as I said before, it has, I think, the 2 best doctors in the history of the show.

1106
01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:46.800
So I am a massive fan of that as well.

1107
01:24:46.800 --> 01:24:51.000
And perhaps even more after this leg of our flight.

1108
01:24:51.060 --> 01:24:52.979
And again, it goes back to structure.

1109
01:24:53.039 --> 01:24:56.220
They were saying earlier, he starts and ends with the best.

1110
01:24:56.340 --> 01:25:02.699
I think he gets so much more right than I would hesitate to even use the word wrong.

1111
01:25:02.760 --> 01:25:14.640
I think there are some missteps which he then recalculates, and I think in that he's a far more experimental writer than Russell, but, you know, he's also got to follow Russell.

1112
01:25:14.699 --> 01:25:17.699
Do something different and then do something different from himself every year.

1113
01:25:18.300 --> 01:25:23.760
Look, I mean, it's, I think, I think it's a great ear, one of the best eras of shows ever had.

1114
01:25:23.819 --> 01:25:27.000
I think both of them, you know, even though I prefer the Matt Smith, half of his era.

1115
01:25:27.060 --> 01:25:28.979
I still think most of the Capaldi stuff is good.

1116
01:25:28.979 --> 01:25:36.960
And I think we are lucky to have had him and had him so long, despite me suggesting that maybe if he'd been there a bit less, may have all come together better.

1117
01:25:37.020 --> 01:25:51.779
But I think the thing that we're missing is a doctor, to be a single doctor, to be covered by 2 different showrunners, or a, you know, a bit more of that, bit more of that variety, to see how a doctor can be, you know, wouldn't it have been interesting if Chippin had picked up and Capaldi's still a doctor?

1118
01:25:51.840 --> 01:25:54.359
But yeah, it's great.

1119
01:25:54.420 --> 01:25:57.239
And I think we'll know what we've lost very soon.

1120
01:25:57.479 --> 01:26:07.260
I need to agree with Simon and that looking at this point now, just the range, emotions and colour, and of course it wasn't all successful.

1121
01:26:07.319 --> 01:26:10.260
And it was quite jarring at the time.

1122
01:26:10.319 --> 01:26:22.619
I'm not just talking about the beats that we've named on FTE in the past, but that actually works when you see what they all managed to bring together, Rachel Talloway.

1123
01:26:22.680 --> 01:26:26.100
I mean, honestly, and the extraordinary work she's done.

1124
01:26:26.159 --> 01:26:37.140
But honestly, Capaldi saved the end of this period of Doctor Who simply by holding that moment in the camera and just being so expert at what he does.

1125
01:26:37.619 --> 01:26:55.859
I mean, I prefer Russell's 1st year of the show as a whole. for many of the same reasons as Nathan, but Doctor Who has never been more experimental or more varied than it is in Moffatt's era.

1126
01:26:55.920 --> 01:26:59.340
And I think that that is something glorious.

1127
01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:01.439
And I'm so glad we had it.

1128
01:27:01.500 --> 01:27:05.939
I've got nothing more, except to say, now, what are your thoughts on class?

1129
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:33.180
Well, that's all the time we have for now.

1130
01:27:33.239 --> 01:27:41.819
We'll be back in a few years' time to watch a new Dr. Fall Out of the Sky and change our world forever in The Woman Who Fell to Earth.

1131
01:27:42.300 --> 01:28:05.880
In the meantime, we'll be back in just a few months with a new season of 500 year diary called The Second Coming, in which we discuss all of the doctor's most terrifying adversaries in their 2nd appearance in the show, and we'll also be back to deliver our ill considered hot takes on season 2 of the 2nd RTD era in the 2nd great and bountiful Human Empire.

1132
01:28:06.180 --> 01:28:11.640
Until next time, it's a big universe, but we hope to see you again.

1133
01:28:11.699 --> 01:28:14.340
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1134
01:28:14.399 --> 01:28:15.479
Good night.

1135
01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:16.380
See you soon.

1136
01:28:16.439 --> 01:28:17.460
Ta-ta.

1137
01:28:17.520 --> 01:28:18.960
Good night. until next time.

1138
01:28:19.020 --> 01:28:19.920
And good win.

1139
01:28:26.039 --> 01:28:33.720
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffith, Brendan Jones, Simon Moore, James Selwood, and Richard Stone.

1140
01:28:33.779 --> 01:28:36.180
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1141
01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:37.140
This episode?

1142
01:28:37.199 --> 01:28:44.640
Well, that's all the time we have for now, was recorded on the 1st of December 2024 and released on New Year's Day, 2025.

1143
01:28:45.479 --> 01:28:57.659
If you've ever laughed out loud at us while sitting on the bus or like one of our posts or told a friend about us or written a review or sent us a message or become our lifelong friend, then thank you.

1144
01:28:57.720 --> 01:28:59.579
We love you and we'll see you soon.

1145
01:29:04.319 --> 01:29:06.119
Yeah, perfect.

1146
01:29:06.180 --> 01:29:06.720
Okay.

1147
01:29:06.779 --> 01:29:09.899
We'll do class on, let's do class at some point.

1148
01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:10.859
Let's not.

1149
01:29:10.979 --> 01:29:13.020
I shan't be on that.

1150
01:29:13.020 --> 01:29:14.220
I'm a 500-year diary.

1151
01:29:14.279 --> 01:29:15.720
Yeah, if I haven't read your diary.

1152
01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.119
How many episodes is that?

1153
01:29:18.180 --> 01:29:18.779
10?

1154
01:29:18.779 --> 01:29:21.840
eight. eight, eight, eight, eight.

1155
01:29:23.520 --> 01:29:24.840
Okay.

1156
01:29:24.899 --> 01:29:25.319
Okay.

1157
01:29:25.380 --> 01:29:26.039
Oh, thank you.