WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:28:45

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast that knows how many seconds there are

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in eternity.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Todd.

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I'm James.

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I'm Peter.

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I'm Simon.

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And I'm the last of the Hogmany T for this one.

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Well, just last week, we said goodbye, not only to Peter Capaldi's

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doctor, but also to the new series 2nd showrunner, Stephen Moffat

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during whose tenure, we've had 84 episodes.

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We've met 2 doctors, 5 companions, and 3 wives, and we've

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travelled to Gallifre, Trezalore, The Big Bang, and the very end

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of time itself.

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And we've also spent an inordinately creepy amount of time lurking

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under people's beds.

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So let's find out what we've learned in the Capoldi Moffat

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Retrospective.

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All right, I'm going to ask a question, and the question is this.

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What is your favourite Peter Cabaldi season, starting with

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Richard?

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10 out of 10?

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I think maybe eight.

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I have to agree with Richard 10.

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That's brilliant. 10 for the characters I'd have to say 8 as

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well.

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There's a big case for eight, but I'm going 10.

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I'm going 10.

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I mean, I have a massive soft spot for 10 and I've loved it as

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we've gone through this time.

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It's good too, though.

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It's a sort of RTD season.

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It's got the romance subplot, all of that sort of thing.

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I mean, I'm going to be controversial and say I ate was a

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difficult choice because I was going to, I want what I really want

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to say was, well, none of them really, none of them for me really

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stand out.

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I think they've all got problems.

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I don't buy the O season 10 is absolutely fantastic.

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I'm not in that group because I think there are too many kind of

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really ordinary episodes in it, even though there are some great

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some of the, I think some of the best Capaldi episodes are in

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season 10, but I think there's just a lot of ordinariness and

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there's just things that annoy me too much about all 3 seasons, I'm

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afraid.

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I think they're sort of good for different reasons because season

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8 has a very strong arc and through line, and that helps to make

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that good, whereas series 10 is just Moffat on autopilot, and I

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don't mean that as a bad thing.

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He just turns out a really great series of episodes, and so it's

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good for that reason.

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This is not the response I was expecting.

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I thought we were going to get a universal 10 out of 10, so we

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could discuss season 10 and put it to 10.

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But, you know, that's the joy of doing these episodes.

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So let's go back to the beginning, which is deep breath.

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And did we all see deep breath at the...

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State Theatre?

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Yes.

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No.

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I saw it at a theatre in Clapham with Matt Jones and Bexlovin.

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Yes, you went back yet, were you?

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I saw it in Washington, DC. with some friends at a gay bar.

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I think I saw it at the Dandy in Newtown.

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I don't think I saw it at the state theatre.

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I have this just very strong memory of leaving the state theatre

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going, I can't believe that they went with that music.

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I can't believe they went with those credits.

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Because wasn't there a Capaldi interview alive?

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like he was there.

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Yeah, Cabaldi and Coleman were both there, I think.

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I can't remember.

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They were.

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I guess I was at that.

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Yes.

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Was there the one where the ABC presenter who was doing the

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interviewing called mentioned a list of companions, including the

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Australian one played by Jane Fielding?

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possibly.

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There was that guy.

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He kind of lost credibility from that point.

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I can't remember.

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He's the same guy who interviewed Frone Lieberitz at the Opera

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House and got it all wrong as well.

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I haven't seen him on the radio since then.

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And yes, I am mixing my media.

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He also said that Nissa was played by Matthew Waterhouse, right?

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So it wasn't always...

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So when you left that episode.

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What were your feelings at that point in time with this new era

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embarking upon us?

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It is a little bit hard to remember.

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There's a way in which the 11th hour is kind of a perfect polished

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thing, you know.

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And so deep breath isn't that.

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Deep breath is doing something different.

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In fact, it's the opposite.

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It's doing the trick that robot does, isn't it?

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Where you drop the new doctor into the old doctor's show?

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That's right.

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I always feel like 11th hour is spearhead from space.

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Yeah, deep breath is robot.

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Yeah, I think that's kind of right, isn't it?

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Like, I think it's good.

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It's bleak, and maybe the doctor is a little bit too much, but

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it's Capaldi, and I think I loved him immediately.

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Were you concerned at all about the direction of this new doctor

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like the fact that he wasn't as perhaps as likeable as the

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previous?

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Well, I think the show was concerned.

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You know, the way it is.

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I had concerns walking away from that going, that's the direction

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they're going.

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Like we've had 2 young doctors.

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We've now got an older, grumpier doctor.

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Like, you know, this is the Colin situation where he's perhaps not

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as likeable.

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I was concerned about that direction.

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And it's good to go back and revisit all of this because I really

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enjoyed this episode so much more and seeing the through line for

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series 8 when, you know, we very watched it.

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I really have appreciated so much more, because at the time I was

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much more concerned about, am I a good man?

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I think the show spends far too much time going over and over and

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over that.

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Like, I think maybe it needed to be put to bed sooner.

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The am I a good man thing?

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's dramatically valid.

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It's an interesting path for the character to take, but the fact

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that it's an basically entire season, and then part of the next

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one as well, like he really doesn't kind of become the doctor

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unfettered until his last season.

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It's also asking a question.

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We don't need an answer to.

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Yes, he's the doctor.

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He is a good man.

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Move on.

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The thing that I find a little bit irritating is the obsession

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about his age because I think it's a little bit demeaning to Peter

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Capaldi to keep harping on about the fact that, oh, you're so

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old.

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Well, Clara, want to stay with you because you're not hot

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anymore.

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You're old, that I find a little bit, yeah.

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And so I'm glad they left that behind fairly quickly.

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I think they, it's almost like they cast Peter Capaldi and then

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immediately had 2nd thoughts and think, oh, God, what have you

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done?

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And is this going to be a problem?

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And I remember someone we know who said he walked into a news

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agent, WH Smith, or whatever it was over there and suddenly saw

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the front cover of Doctor Who magazine with what he said was an

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old man on the cover and he went, oh, oh.

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I actually had the same kind of reaction.

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I think Todd, you and I came out of the state theatre wondering

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whether they were going to try and do the Colin Baker thing, but

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do it right, or at least not be interrupted by an unfortunate

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hiatus.

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Because remember the plan of the Colin Baker year, it was that he

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was going to become, you know, he was going to become softer over

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his 20 year run as the doctor because, you know, he was going to

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break all the records.

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But yeah, I didn't concern me per se.

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I was very happy with, yes, let's try something different.

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Let's try something else.

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And I think broadly speaking, it does sort of work.

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I mean, they kind of throw it away sometimes and bring it back.

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But, I mean, the character, the great thing is the character does

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evolve and change over the 3 seasons, and I think that's a good

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thing.

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I certainly like the series 8 characterisation a lot and how

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ambiguous it is.

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And I think it works better than the Colin Baker characterisation

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partly just because it's better written and the...

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Might be a slightly better actor.

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And he's a better actor.

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Much as I love home.

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We all love Colin, but...

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I don't even think that Colin is to most valid comparison.

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I think it's Pertwee at his spikiest.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Peter, yes, I agree.

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I mentioned that a number of times where, you know, season 7 is

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very, and even into the beginning of eight, he's very different.

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It's Joe. It's the way that Bill humanises Capaldi's doctor.

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He's what Joe does to Pertwe's doctor.

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And even when Pertweese doctors being grumpy, we know he loves Joe

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and so he has to be kind of a good guy.

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Simon and Nathan, you've said that it's your favourite season.

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Why is that?

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I like that it follows the RTD structure after some experiments in

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6 and 7.

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We're kind of back to just doing a normal season finally, and

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that's a little bit of a relief.

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I like the through line a lot.

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It introduces Missy.

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There's a lot of missy in it, and I think that the, uh, the school

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staff and the rom-com staff is so close to what Moffatt probably

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always wanted to do, given the way his TV writing career started.

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So I just think all of that works really well.

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I just think it's got better episodes in it, because as I keep

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saying, that season 10 has not got that many.

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It's got some great episodes in it and certainly anything with

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Missy, it's just absolutely spectacular.

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It's got some great episodes, particularly the pilot and world

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enough in time, but there's a lot of them, which I go, I just

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don't care.

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I'm not, I'm not feeling it.

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It's all, they all feel like they need an extra draft.

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Then it makes sense.

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We were saying a lot of this all the way through, whether it was

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things like knock, knock, or even that back end, like with the

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eases of light and Empress of Mars.

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I'm not a big fan of any of those.

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Whereas I think that all that, that missy through line in series 8

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I think, I think does work really well, especially because even

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though we know she's going to be the master.

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We all know she's going to be the master, but it's the way that'll

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unfold.

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I like the school stuff, the thing I don't like.

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The only thing I don't like about the school stuff is, of course

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the PE, all the PE stuff.

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I think that is ill judged.

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Basically the caretaker.

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Yeah, and that's basically summarised by the caretaker, which is a

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woeful episode for me anyway, even though there's some great fun

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parts of it.

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But look, I, as I said before, I'm not saying season 8 series 8 is

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my favourite of the 3 because I love it.

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I'm saying series A is my preferred of the three, but it's a very

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very subtle variation.

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Because even series 9.

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I love it.

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I don't know why series 9 doesn't get any love because I love that

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opening 2 part.

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I think it's fantastic.

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I adore all three.

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Coming back to him.

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There's a lot of strength in nine, which I love, but as we, we'll

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get on to tonight in a moment, but coming back to eight, like I

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had to think about whether it was 8 or 10 and I really like a lot

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of episodes a lot in eight.

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It's just, it's the am I good man thing.

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And it's a variation within episodes where the doctor can be

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really funny one moment and then quite harsh.

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And I found that a little bit jarring throughout.

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And as you said, like, there's episodes where you, like, Robert

251
00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:50.879
Sherwood. he's much more what he is much later on.

252
00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:53.759
And it sort of jumps backwards and forwards between things and

253
00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:57.539
that's interesting, but I also find it a bit jarring throughout

254
00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:58.259
the season.

255
00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.960
But certainly I think there's this perception that he's just very

256
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:02.580
harsh all the way through.

257
00:12:02.639 --> 00:12:04.679
And like even in time heist.

258
00:12:04.740 --> 00:12:05.220
He's not.

259
00:12:05.279 --> 00:12:07.139
Like there's there's a lot that isn't, you know?

260
00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:11.039
I think so much of a season's success is actually a little bit

261
00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:13.799
outside of the showrunners purview.

262
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:16.559
So if we think of a good season.

263
00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:20.220
It tends to be that there are good episodes dotted throughout.

264
00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:23.580
You don't get clumps of good and clumps of bad episodes.

265
00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:26.759
And so series 8 starts well with deep breath.

266
00:12:26.820 --> 00:12:29.100
I personally think Time Heist is really good.

267
00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:30.360
Others think listen is really good.

268
00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:35.519
Then we've got that one, two, punch from Jamie Matheson of Mummy

269
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.179
on the Orient Express and Flatline, and then it ends with Dark

270
00:12:39.179 --> 00:12:41.039
Water and its 2nd half.

271
00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:44.340
And so all the good episodes are placed and evenly spaced out, and

272
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:45.899
that leaves you feeling that it's a great season.

273
00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:50.940
I honestly think, too, that Kill the Moon is also a good episode.

274
00:12:51.059 --> 00:12:53.159
Congratulations, honesty.

275
00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:58.379
There are some seminars you can attend, yeah. to help you work

276
00:12:58.379 --> 00:12:58.980
with that too.

277
00:12:59.039 --> 00:12:59.519
I would like to.

278
00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:02.700
I would just like to say I'm glad that Simon and Nathan are on

279
00:13:02.700 --> 00:13:05.279
opposite sides of the room after that comment because I was on

280
00:13:05.279 --> 00:13:05.700
that episode.

281
00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:10.980
Yes, but I dislike that and think it's terrible not for everyone

282
00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:12.960
that sort of says, oh, it's terrible because the moon's an egg.

283
00:13:13.019 --> 00:13:14.820
No, that's actually not why it's terrible.

284
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:16.259
No, no, I remember.

285
00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:17.580
Actually, every other...

286
00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.639
One, you're going to make the sewer mutants angry.

287
00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.980
Two, everything else that's horribly wrong.

288
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.000
I guess we'll get back to the 1st half of the morphant era later

289
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:29.759
but the other reason, I think, why I have such a lukewarm reaction

290
00:13:29.759 --> 00:13:32.940
to this era, even though I think Capelli's a great actor, and even

291
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:34.860
though there's so much I love about his characterisation to the

292
00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:37.980
doctor, is that for me, the whole thing is just a step down from

293
00:13:37.980 --> 00:13:38.700
what we've just had.

294
00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:41.340
Even the slight dodginess of series seven.

295
00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:45.539
I'll take series 7, 6 over any of the Capaldi seasons any day.

296
00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:49.019
I think that 5 and 6 are 2 of the strongest. are the 2 stronger

297
00:13:49.019 --> 00:13:53.399
seasons that the new show has produced by a substantial margin.

298
00:13:53.460 --> 00:13:55.799
I know that 6 doesn't get a lot of love, but I still think it's up

299
00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:55.919
there.

300
00:13:55.980 --> 00:13:57.240
I think 6 is great.

301
00:13:57.299 --> 00:13:58.679
I think it is really good.

302
00:13:58.740 --> 00:13:59.759
That's also where I'm coming from.

303
00:13:59.820 --> 00:14:00.539
It's a step.

304
00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:02.220
The whole capacity is a step down.

305
00:14:02.279 --> 00:14:04.500
Do you know, Simon, I might have once agreed with you, but

306
00:14:04.500 --> 00:14:07.259
actually on rewatching...

307
00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.240
We agree on many things.

308
00:14:09.299 --> 00:14:11.340
This is just that we enjoy the things that we don't.

309
00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:15.360
Yeah, I had the reverse experience, actually.

310
00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:17.759
I actually think that...

311
00:14:17.759 --> 00:14:18.840
Not a Tot experience.

312
00:14:18.899 --> 00:14:21.000
No, he's having a tot experience, right?

313
00:14:21.179 --> 00:14:23.519
Aren't we all do this?

314
00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.039
A bit moist on this side.

315
00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:28.679
Oh, thank you.

316
00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:36.480
I actually... you the mints in our sausage roll pastry, does it?

317
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.000
That mints a lot.

318
00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.940
Todd, when Nathan said to you at the beginning of this recording

319
00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:46.019
why don't you sit in the middle?

320
00:14:47.639 --> 00:14:52.440
Anyway, I had a slightly reversed experience assignment and that I

321
00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:55.139
actually think the Capaldi era is a little bit better than the

322
00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:56.039
Matt Smith era.

323
00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:59.940
There's not much in it, but I think 8 and 10 do elevate it above

324
00:14:59.940 --> 00:15:01.740
Matt Smith's years.

325
00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:03.000
I agree.

326
00:15:03.059 --> 00:15:04.259
I agree with you.

327
00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.519
My experience is that I really, really love the commolder is so

328
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:12.480
much more and I have problems with the back end of 7 and I have

329
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.399
problems with the weaker episodes in six.

330
00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:22.799
So for me, where, you know, it's a line ball thing between six

331
00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:28.139
seven, 9 and 8 and I'm just edging slightly ahead for 8 and 9 over

332
00:15:28.139 --> 00:15:29.399
those other 2 series.

333
00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:39.419
One of our listeners, Kate Orman, and dear friends, has this.

334
00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.960
Watching Doctor Who requires us to suspend disbelief, of course.

335
00:15:43.019 --> 00:15:46.799
But have there been any stories that have strange or credulity

336
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.700
anything that was simply difficult to believe in the forest of the

337
00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:51.000
night?

338
00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:55.259
So this was an episode where I actually requested not to be on

339
00:15:55.259 --> 00:16:00.059
because I didn't want to be a massively negative voice about it.

340
00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:01.200
Oh, it's great fun. should do it.

341
00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:06.480
Well, this is my shot, and I'm going to say sleep no more.

342
00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.500
Because sleep no more.

343
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:11.159
You know what?

344
00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:12.360
It has a lot going for it.

345
00:16:12.419 --> 00:16:13.379
The direction's amazing.

346
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:17.279
I think the relationship between Bethany Black's character and

347
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.019
Blue Ando is it?

348
00:16:19.259 --> 00:16:24.779
Their love interest, I think, is one of the great tragic romances

349
00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:26.940
Doctor Who has done in the new series.

350
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.620
But with Sleep No More, it's, you know, it functions on horror

351
00:16:31.620 --> 00:16:35.759
movie logic, and they kind of use that as an excuse to not really

352
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:38.700
explain things, and then at the end we're told, oh, maybe this

353
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.460
didn't happen anyway, and we have the doctor screaming, none of

354
00:16:41.460 --> 00:16:42.360
this makes any sense.

355
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:45.539
And I literally, during the credits turn to Rod, and I said, I

356
00:16:45.539 --> 00:16:49.919
have never been told by a writer, the last 45 minutes you've spent

357
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:51.179
watching this are worthless.

358
00:16:51.179 --> 00:16:56.820
And I just, I'm just angry every time I think about that episode.

359
00:16:56.879 --> 00:17:01.200
And the thing is, that's why I said, actually, James, I don't, I

360
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.259
could, I could come on and be incredibly entertained or get

361
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:07.259
incredibly bitchy, but I don't want to be because I feel like it

362
00:17:07.259 --> 00:17:08.819
is already kicked that one.

363
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:09.539
I fairly.

364
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:11.220
Think yourself lucky, Brendan.

365
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:12.420
It was supposed to be a two-parter.

366
00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:14.039
Yes, oh God.

367
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:15.779
Oh, Mark.

368
00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:18.359
Yeah, but I do think it's one of the few times that Mark 8 is

369
00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.099
really, really fumbles.

370
00:17:20.160 --> 00:17:21.000
It's fires.

371
00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:21.660
Nathan?

372
00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.900
I want to challenge the premise of the question.

373
00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:28.440
Yes.

374
00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.359
Because we have to suspend disbelief anyway watching this

375
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.279
incredible... don't suspend disbelief.

376
00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:37.440
It's a TV show and you're watching it.

377
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:43.799
And Moffatt in particular is not creating a coherent world for

378
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.420
these adventures to happen in.

379
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:50.160
He's telling a type of story that involves these characters.

380
00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:55.619
And so you're never, ever invited to forget that this is a story

381
00:17:55.619 --> 00:17:59.099
and that it operates on the logic of a story.

382
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:03.359
And I think that that's kind of what Gatus is going for in sleep

383
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:08.039
no more, for instance, that the whole scaffolding of the fact that

384
00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:10.619
it's a story is there on display.

385
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:12.059
And that's what Moffat does all the time.

386
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:14.460
It's just a story.

387
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.539
And so I don't think anything happens that's so implausible that I

388
00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:19.019
can't believe it.

389
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:21.599
May I reinforce the premise of the question then?

390
00:18:21.660 --> 00:18:24.960
Because I get what you're saying, that it's all a TV show and it's

391
00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:26.160
all made up, et cetera, et cetera.

392
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:28.799
But whenever you're watching any TV program, it needs to work

393
00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:30.059
consistently within itself.

394
00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:33.720
There are rules that are set up, often in the 1st few minutes of

395
00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.599
watching a film, television show, whatever it is, where you accept

396
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.119
certain things, that you can travel through time and space in a

397
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:40.019
police box at the dog.

398
00:18:40.079 --> 00:18:41.099
Whatever it happens to bear.

399
00:18:41.099 --> 00:18:42.539
All the. established a world for you.

400
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:43.740
You establish a work for you.

401
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:47.400
Basically, it's when the suspension of disbelief means that you

402
00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:52.019
are, once you've bought the fact that those incredulous things are

403
00:18:52.019 --> 00:18:55.619
real in the context of this story, those rules have to then be

404
00:18:55.619 --> 00:18:58.980
applied throughout the rest of the at least the episode that

405
00:18:58.980 --> 00:18:59.460
you're watching.

406
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:03.359
Doctor Who has the flexibility that different stories can mix that

407
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.859
up and have completely different universes that the show visits

408
00:19:07.859 --> 00:19:09.359
and different styles of the program.

409
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:13.500
It's when you're in the middle of an episode where there are wires

410
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:16.619
that get crossed because of whether the way it's written, whether

411
00:19:16.619 --> 00:19:19.799
the way it's being performed, whatever it is, that interrupts that

412
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.059
I think that is what we're talking about.

413
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:22.920
Not the fact that the moon is an egg, for instance.

414
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:24.299
Yeah, well, how about this then?

415
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.779
Because Moffat centres the stories very much on the regular cast.

416
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.619
We have lots and lots of episodes that don't have a large guest

417
00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:32.039
cast.

418
00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:37.859
And so the rules that are established are established within the

419
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:43.319
well-drawn personalities of the characters.

420
00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:47.519
And so one way that you could have your suspension of disbelief

421
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.420
challenge is if one of them behaved in a way that was implausible

422
00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:54.660
or inconsistent with their previous behaviour.

423
00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:59.279
And I still think it's the moment that Amy's baby collapses into a

424
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.519
puddle of seek in front of her and she continues to travel with

425
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:03.299
the doctor after that.

426
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.140
I was going to say, I think for you, I was thinking back to

427
00:20:07.140 --> 00:20:11.039
Resurrection of the Darwix, and you saying, if your script has, the

428
00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.119
doctor picks up a gun and unloads the clip into a creature, that's

429
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:16.200
where the story's gone wrong.

430
00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:18.779
And I think I think for you it's less about the conception of the

431
00:20:18.779 --> 00:20:20.400
world more about the conception of the character.

432
00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:21.299
Yeah.

433
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:25.079
But the point being that the question is still valid because it'll

434
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:27.420
mean slightly different things for different people. right.

435
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:31.140
And so I suppose you must have, what was your answer then if you

436
00:20:31.140 --> 00:20:33.359
accept that that's a possible... it's that.

437
00:20:33.420 --> 00:20:36.900
If a character... sort of doesn't behave in the right way.

438
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:40.619
Think about the Russell era creates a world and it might be a

439
00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:44.819
world that is perhaps a little bit too small, but it's a world

440
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:48.779
where all of these things have happened where people remember them

441
00:20:48.779 --> 00:20:53.099
and react to them and the adventures take place in that world and

442
00:20:53.099 --> 00:20:55.980
it's possible for that world to be inconsistent.

443
00:20:56.039 --> 00:21:00.000
But Russell's very careful about not doing that.

444
00:21:00.059 --> 00:21:01.859
Moffatt doesn't care about that.

445
00:21:01.920 --> 00:21:03.420
That's not his approach.

446
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:08.099
And he is more like a sitcom rider in that he has a stable of

447
00:21:08.099 --> 00:21:12.539
characters who behave in ways that we recognise as predictable or

448
00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:16.019
who act against type for one reason or another.

449
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:20.099
And so in that sense, I think, given that the world that Moffatt

450
00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:23.880
creates is the world of those characters, I think that when those

451
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.480
characters behave inconsistently, that's where I'm going to find

452
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:28.740
the biggest problem.

453
00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.799
So, I mean, I broadly agree with what you were saying about sort

454
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:34.140
of internal logic to a world that's set up.

455
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:36.720
There's a reason that I don't like in the forest of the night

456
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.019
because there's a certain subset of Doctor Who stories that are

457
00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:41.819
telling an allegorical story.

458
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.720
I think Kilamoon is one of them, I think, um, in the Forest and I

459
00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:45.900
obviously.

460
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:46.619
Gridlock.

461
00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:48.240
Gridlock, that's the one I was going to say.

462
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:51.900
Obviously, gridlock is a far superior episode to in the forest of

463
00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:52.259
the night.

464
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:57.180
But when you're being asked to believe that this is set on the

465
00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:01.019
recognisable earth of Clara and Danny dating and being school

466
00:22:01.019 --> 00:22:03.779
teacher and that, and that the world has just forested over and

467
00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:06.240
that you're in the middle of Piccadilly Circus and you're just in

468
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.799
a forest and then the forest disappears because we want to make a

469
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.779
point, I don't buy that.

470
00:22:12.839 --> 00:22:16.319
It's the kind of story where you think you don't have an internal

471
00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:16.980
logic here.

472
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:20.279
I'm being asked to believe things in the story that step outside

473
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:21.240
of what it's setting up.

474
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.299
See, I don't think I have that limit.

475
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:28.559
And I think that having that limit is kind of asking the show to

476
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:31.079
do less ambitious things, I think.

477
00:22:31.140 --> 00:22:34.559
I don't think it's asking it to do less ambitious things at all

478
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.079
because I think it is something like Mummy on the Orient Express

479
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.099
that that doesn't challenge my sense of my suspension of disbelief

480
00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:43.019
because, even though it's a tradition.

481
00:22:43.019 --> 00:22:45.660
Even though it's technics, it's no difference to, you know, sailing

482
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:48.119
ships going through space and enlightenment. we've done that sort

483
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:49.200
of thing before, that doesn't matter.

484
00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:52.380
It's because of the way, again, the way it's treated internally, it

485
00:22:52.380 --> 00:22:53.640
all kind of just works together.

486
00:22:53.700 --> 00:22:55.920
I get what you're saying about, you know, Amy's baby turning into

487
00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:58.140
a bucket of sick being actually a far worse crime than anything

488
00:22:58.140 --> 00:22:58.440
else.

489
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:00.839
But I'd probably have to say in the forest of the night would be

490
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.259
my my selection too, which is just because this just doesn't work

491
00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:05.220
for me.

492
00:23:05.279 --> 00:23:07.019
And I don't I'm not buying it.

493
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:09.599
For whatever reason, even though I can see lots of other stupid

494
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:10.140
things.

495
00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:12.299
The other one I don't particularly like for the same reason is

496
00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:13.319
just Empress of Mars.

497
00:23:13.380 --> 00:23:16.200
I think it just stretches a bit too far.

498
00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:18.000
But, you know, I could go on.

499
00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:21.299
They're all looking at Todd now.

500
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:22.200
What's your choice?

501
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.200
My choices are the end of kill the moon.

502
00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:30.359
I just can't believe the egg gets laid in exactly the same place

503
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:30.720
right?

504
00:23:30.779 --> 00:23:33.299
I can buy it up to that point, but it's the same.

505
00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:36.059
Just, yeah, it just doesn't, that just doesn't work for me.

506
00:23:36.119 --> 00:23:39.660
And it's the whole forest disappearing in the forest of the

507
00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:39.839
night.

508
00:23:39.900 --> 00:23:43.559
They're the 2 episodes from this era that I just...

509
00:23:43.619 --> 00:23:45.480
Killer Moon is such a divisive episode.

510
00:23:45.539 --> 00:23:49.380
Do you think we ought to divide into separate corners of the room

511
00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:51.059
and turn on our lights if we like it?

512
00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.000
turn on our lights if we don't like it.

513
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:55.140
Richard.

514
00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:57.900
Listening to all of you, I don't disagree with anything you're

515
00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:02.759
saying, but I look at the arc and the position that Gattus and

516
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.559
Mark and Stephen come from, and that they really embrace YA, the

517
00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:13.920
new kind of fusion writing of fiction and allegory and fairy tale

518
00:24:13.920 --> 00:24:15.660
and run of the mill ordinariness.

519
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.599
And then I look at Russell's time, which is very much buried in

520
00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:24.059
the here and now and the substantive and the 3D and the soap, but

521
00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:25.079
then expanding on that.

522
00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:28.799
And I really appreciate where Stephen was trying to go and maybe

523
00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:30.299
it's the dictates of time.

524
00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:33.539
It's always time to do dumb, but it is.

525
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.380
And, you know, the ideas that he had and some of them were really

526
00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:37.980
glorious.

527
00:24:38.039 --> 00:24:42.180
There were some, you know, from Charles Foss to, I'm trying to

528
00:24:42.180 --> 00:24:45.480
think of the SF Riders writing about 20 years ago that, anyway

529
00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.180
they were picking up on these guys, trying to bring that in.

530
00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.259
And you can see it when you watch the San Diego Comic-Con footage

531
00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:57.059
of, you know, of our people in the audience who are all readers as

532
00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:59.099
well as or even before their viewers.

533
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.180
And I wonder if that's something that Stephen and Mark Gattus

534
00:25:03.180 --> 00:25:06.720
brought in, because I do see Markus, the 2nd unofficial writer for

535
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:08.160
tone anyway, for these ideas.

536
00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:11.460
And yes, they don't succeed, and that's kind of impossible to do

537
00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:13.259
that in 45 minutes and on this budget.

538
00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:17.039
But there are ideas just flowing constantly.

539
00:25:17.099 --> 00:25:21.000
And finally, with Capaldi, I was able to get out of my crawl, that

540
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.599
whole business that we've talked again so much about with Amy's

541
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:29.099
child and how a tub of silly putty can become River song.

542
00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:29.579
I don't know.

543
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.579
I don't remember how any of that works because I don't really, even

544
00:25:32.579 --> 00:25:36.420
though I watched it twice, it's just such a unholy mess of a

545
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:38.339
misunderstanding of how to write for women.

546
00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:40.259
And that's just me saying that.

547
00:25:40.319 --> 00:25:43.019
But anyway, where I'm trying to go with this is they're a

548
00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:44.039
brilliant concepts.

549
00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:46.619
They may fall, but my goodness, we are taken to places.

550
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:48.119
We've never been to in the show before.

551
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:52.380
It's interesting what you say about Moffat and Mark Gitas, almost

552
00:25:52.380 --> 00:25:55.500
being like an assistant showrunner, because that's what happened

553
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:57.660
in the 1st series where Doctor 2 came back.

554
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:01.500
You had the people who brought in like Paul Cornell and Gaitas and

555
00:26:01.500 --> 00:26:03.839
Rob Scherman, and they were all looking back.

556
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:07.079
They were looking at the greatest hits of what Doctor Who was and

557
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:08.099
what they wanted to do.

558
00:26:08.160 --> 00:26:12.900
Russell was charged with looking forward and creating a series

559
00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:14.400
that would work in the 21st century.

560
00:26:14.460 --> 00:26:16.799
I think Moffat and Gaitas work in the same way.

561
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:20.400
Moffat's always thinking about the future and where the series

562
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.759
needs to go, whereas Gatus is this reassuring presence who always

563
00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:27.059
looks back at classic Doctor Who and references that and those

564
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:27.599
kinds stories.

565
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:31.559
Yeah, I think that Gatus does challenge himself more as he goes on

566
00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:37.980
and that late Gatus is more interesting and does things that the

567
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:42.000
show has never done before, but he does it from a basis of a real

568
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:48.599
proper sense of what works in Doctor Who and what has worked and

569
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:52.980
even when he's being experimental, like in Empress of Mars, which

570
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:55.140
has a very strange premise.

571
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:58.440
And we said that it would have been set in the far future and and

572
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.160
the Earth Empire, rather than the British Empire, and deciding, no

573
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:06.119
damn it, we're going to do the British Empire, is absolutely kind

574
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.220
of a moment of genius, I think.

575
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:12.839
I don't understand how that timeline works, though, if Mars is

576
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:17.579
joining the Galactic Federation in the Victorian era.

577
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:23.220
Why do we have invasions of Earth by the ice warriors?

578
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:25.859
in the 21st, 22nd century?

579
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:29.220
If only there was some kind of boring Bible you could read.

580
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:31.319
Put all of that into perspective.

581
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:35.460
I think that big Mondassian colony ship just went past them at

582
00:27:35.460 --> 00:27:39.420
some point. and sent them back in time.

583
00:27:39.480 --> 00:27:44.759
If I may quote an explanation from the life of Brian. splitters.

584
00:27:59.460 --> 00:28:02.700
We've talked a lot now about series 8.

585
00:28:02.759 --> 00:28:05.819
Dr. Watt asks us.

586
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:08.400
Jenna Common was originally going to leave the show after last

587
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:09.000
Christmas.

588
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:11.220
Would Bill have been a good companion for series nine?

589
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:14.819
No, but another companion would have been great.

590
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.779
Well, I think Shona was like the sort of the template in the

591
00:28:18.779 --> 00:28:19.380
Christmas special.

592
00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:21.180
Yeah, it should have been great.

593
00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:24.539
And I do think she's a sort of prototype sort of Bill character in

594
00:28:24.539 --> 00:28:26.579
some aspects in the way she reacts to things.

595
00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:28.500
Well, I mean, we talked about this at the time.

596
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:31.920
I was deeply concerned about coming into it, like, you know, Clara

597
00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.099
should have gone, but I was okay with Clara staying on for a bit

598
00:28:35.099 --> 00:28:38.099
longer having a, perhaps mentoring somebody else to be the

599
00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:41.160
companion, but the direction he took it in was, you know, a lot

600
00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:41.759
darker than that.

601
00:28:41.819 --> 00:28:45.420
Yeah, I agree with what Simon says, Bill couldn't have really come

602
00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:49.380
into series 9 as it was because for better or for worse, when

603
00:28:49.380 --> 00:28:54.299
Jenner decides to stay on, Stephen absolutely writes an arc for

604
00:28:54.299 --> 00:28:55.079
Clara.

605
00:28:55.140 --> 00:28:59.039
You know, yes, you could have created a new character for that arc

606
00:28:59.039 --> 00:29:02.640
but the arc he writes is for Jenna, and it seems to be sort of

607
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.160
okay, you know, Jenna is becoming a huge star.

608
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:07.380
She's getting a lot of attention and she's decided to stay with

609
00:29:07.380 --> 00:29:07.500
us.

610
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:08.880
We're going to give her some really good stuff.

611
00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:13.980
And I think this is possibly why the season is less well regarded

612
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:17.099
because it goes to some very dark places, but I can't fault the

613
00:29:17.099 --> 00:29:17.579
execution.

614
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:19.140
I agree.

615
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.859
It's very dark, but they've kept her on and they give her

616
00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:26.579
something meaty to do with the character.

617
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.799
It doesn't ask you to suspend your disbelief.

618
00:29:28.859 --> 00:29:31.920
Like you can believe that character is going to that place.

619
00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:35.039
The love of her life has died terribly.

620
00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:37.440
She is heartbroken.

621
00:29:37.500 --> 00:29:40.079
She has, you know, nothing to live for, really.

622
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:42.480
Like, you can understand that she's got a death wish.

623
00:29:42.539 --> 00:29:45.720
She can understand that she goes to that very dark place because

624
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:46.380
she's in mourning.

625
00:29:46.440 --> 00:29:49.079
I mean the question is, is that very interesting?

626
00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:53.519
And I think it's the clash of the real world imperatives and the

627
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:54.180
fiction of the show.

628
00:29:54.240 --> 00:29:57.359
If Jenna Coleman turns around and says, yes, I'm going to stay for

629
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:57.839
another season.

630
00:29:57.900 --> 00:29:58.619
That's fine.

631
00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:00.480
You write another season for Clara.

632
00:30:00.539 --> 00:30:04.259
If Elizabeth Slayton had said to Philip Hinchcliffe in 1976, I'll

633
00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:06.900
do another season, regardless of whether they thought they'd run

634
00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:09.779
out of stories for Sarah or that she'd reached her potential.

635
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.059
They would have held open the door and said, absolutely.

636
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.960
I don't think Clara necessarily had another season in her.

637
00:30:16.019 --> 00:30:20.880
I think what they do with the character is fairly, um, it's not

638
00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:21.779
all that interesting.

639
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.420
It's just because they have to continue the same character.

640
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:26.579
And I think that that was the problem.

641
00:30:26.700 --> 00:30:32.160
You know, that was why I think our reaction to series 10 is so

642
00:30:32.160 --> 00:30:37.440
much more positive than perhaps the quality of the episodes would

643
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:43.259
suggest because it's so delightful to have Capaldi introduce a new

644
00:30:43.259 --> 00:30:44.519
companion to the show.

645
00:30:44.579 --> 00:30:48.960
And it turns out, you know, I think I said this before, that

646
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.980
Russell didn't expect to change the cast every year.

647
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.339
You know, he had what became a hit show.

648
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:00.240
He had good reason to believe that his 2 leads would just continue

649
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.279
for years and years, and then Eccleston leaves, and kind of as a

650
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:09.420
result, Billy leaves a year later, and it turns out that was great

651
00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:13.380
and that was, you know, the best thing about the ITD era, is it

652
00:31:13.380 --> 00:31:16.799
builds up that sort of stable of characters by changing the cast

653
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:17.819
every year.

654
00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:19.799
Moffat doesn't do that.

655
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:27.839
And I think it like I wonder whether we lose something for that

656
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:28.200
reason.

657
00:31:28.259 --> 00:31:29.940
I think we definitely do.

658
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.299
I mean, I love Amy and Rory, but I think they're there too long.

659
00:31:33.359 --> 00:31:34.980
They shouldn't have come back for that extra half season.

660
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.759
I think Clara is done by her, by the time she's done that one. 5

661
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:39.119
seasons.

662
00:31:39.180 --> 00:31:39.539
I think.

663
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.480
Peter, did you say that the advertising campaign in Britain for

664
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:45.059
series 9 is Dr. and Clara same, same or something?

665
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.000
Dr. and Clara in the TARDIS. same old, same old.

666
00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:51.599
Which is a bizarre thing to say.

667
00:31:51.660 --> 00:31:54.720
It's willing, but it's, and maybe that's why we sort of feel

668
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:55.200
serious.

669
00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:58.559
I was actually just looking through the episodes of series 9 and I

670
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:00.960
may actually revoke my previous fate for series eight.

671
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:04.619
I might say series 9 as my favourite of 3 because whilst there's a

672
00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:07.980
run of dreadful episodes right in the middle of it, there is such

673
00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:10.319
good stuff, which things like Magician's Apprentice, which is

674
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:10.740
familiar.

675
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:14.279
There's, um, uh, there's a igon in 2 part, which I've enjoyed much

676
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:15.839
more this time around than I did on.

677
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:16.859
I think it's actually brilliant.

678
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.579
Sleep no more.

679
00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:18.299
Sorry, Brandon.

680
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:22.799
And, you know, a brief interlude of the tedious face, the raven

681
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:27.180
and then you have the mind-bogglingly superb heaven sent, which is

682
00:32:27.180 --> 00:32:31.920
probably amongst the best 15, 45 minutes program the program's

683
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:32.160
ever done.

684
00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:35.339
I love how differently people can respond because I would have

685
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:38.940
said if I was going through Sirius 9, A brief interlude for the

686
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:42.000
boring sleep no more before you get into the brilliant face the

687
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:42.480
Raven.

688
00:32:42.539 --> 00:32:48.720
Yeah, I think that last 3 episodes of that season is great, and

689
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:52.140
the one regret I have is that Sarah Dollard's episode gets

690
00:32:52.140 --> 00:32:55.500
cancelled, you know, at two-thirds of the way through, to be

691
00:32:55.500 --> 00:33:00.539
replaced by whatever Moffatt's doing to get Capaldi into Heaven's

692
00:33:00.539 --> 00:33:01.380
Sand.

693
00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:07.859
I would also say that the Me 2 parter is underrated, and I think

694
00:33:07.859 --> 00:33:10.500
particularly the 1st one is actually pretty good.

695
00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:12.660
I think the hashtag Me Too partter?

696
00:33:12.720 --> 00:33:15.119
I think it's appropriately rated.

697
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.400
I'm going to agree with you.

698
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:20.579
I think the girl who died, I liked so much more this time.

699
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:22.740
The 2nd one, I think, has got some really great comedy stuff

700
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.619
between Maisie and Peter. rest of it's rubbish.

701
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.940
It forced to beats at the end.

702
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:27.839
Oh, the worst way.

703
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:28.319
Totally.

704
00:33:28.380 --> 00:33:31.380
The Zigon 2 parter, I think, is really solidly great.

705
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:33.539
The 3 at the end are brilliant.

706
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:37.799
I adore the Dalek story, for all the missy stuff.

707
00:33:37.859 --> 00:33:41.339
But I absolutely love the flood.

708
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:42.480
Under the lake.

709
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:43.319
Under the lake.

710
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:45.059
Is that the reason this sofa is moist?

711
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:48.539
Just stop it, Peter.

712
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:50.279
It's a very warm day.

713
00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:54.720
You'll get a Snogmarrier void, which I'm not going to... a

714
00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:55.680
reasonable moistness.

715
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:59.940
But I absolutely adore that to parter, but and I know a lot of

716
00:33:59.940 --> 00:34:00.660
other people don't.

717
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:03.539
But I was saying, I was really surprised how many episodes in that

718
00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:08.099
season I really, really like. just how exhausted you are from the

719
00:34:08.099 --> 00:34:12.360
Saigon onwards because it's so insular looking that by the end of

720
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:12.539
it.

721
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:14.099
So, 0 my goodness, I just want this to end.

722
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.880
And so you not because they're not good episodes.

723
00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:20.039
It's just because I'm utterly shattered.

724
00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:23.940
And so I'm really, if I actually go down and do all my lovely

725
00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:24.780
little ratings.

726
00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:26.820
I actually think season 9 probably would come out on top.

727
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:29.820
If you have to do that, in terms of a feeling.

728
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.579
It the one that I just can't sit down and watch like the other 2

729
00:34:32.579 --> 00:34:33.659
that I can.

730
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:38.219
I think that's why I love series 10 is because you touched on it

731
00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:41.639
before Nathan, it's a breath of fresh air.

732
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:43.800
It's it's a relief.

733
00:34:43.860 --> 00:34:49.019
It's a release because you've had this incredibly dark, like

734
00:34:49.019 --> 00:34:51.119
emotionally draining season before it.

735
00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:58.679
And then you get this wonderful, joyous character in Bill who just

736
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:04.800
is enjoying having fun with her new sort of university professor

737
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:05.159
friend.

738
00:35:05.219 --> 00:35:08.280
And it's oh, it's just so much fun.

739
00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:13.139
And even though many of the stories are weaker, There's still a

740
00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:13.619
joy to watch.

741
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.880
I don't buy that.

742
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:16.980
I think a lot of the episodes in series 10 are really strong.

743
00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:18.239
No.

744
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:20.760
See, I think they're consistently good.

745
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:24.360
Without being consistently ordinary is the problem.

746
00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:24.780
Most of them.

747
00:35:24.900 --> 00:35:25.860
I feel I'm sorry.

748
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:29.159
At the point, I was making pizza. like they're not bad.

749
00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:33.179
Some of them are more around the average area and some of them are

750
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:34.800
utterly brilliant.

751
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:39.960
But to me, that season is more consistently higher in its

752
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:40.260
quality.

753
00:35:40.380 --> 00:35:41.460
I agree.

754
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:43.260
And also it goes back to what I was saying about structure.

755
00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:45.719
Series 10 has good episodes dotted throughout.

756
00:35:45.780 --> 00:35:50.219
Series 9 suffers by having that Me Too Parta in the middle, which

757
00:35:50.219 --> 00:35:53.219
a lot of people don't like, which kind of stalls the momentum.

758
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:56.340
I also think there is a problem with the structure.

759
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:00.239
The reason there's a problem with the structure is they were still

760
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:02.699
doing half season DVDs.

761
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.539
So each one had to have 6 episodes because I think the Me Too

762
00:36:06.539 --> 00:36:07.980
parter should have been more spread out.

763
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:11.340
So it's like if you have the Dalek 2 parter, the girl who died

764
00:36:11.340 --> 00:36:14.579
under the lake before the flood, the woman who lived.

765
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:17.940
You know, the thing is, that still fits in 6 episodes.

766
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:18.780
So you could have done that.

767
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:22.679
And then you have the Zygon 2 parter, and then you have Sleep No

768
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:23.639
More Face the Raven.

769
00:36:23.699 --> 00:36:27.719
It gives you time to miss a shoulder because what happens is you

770
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:31.500
get to the end of the girl who died and the ending is such that.

771
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:32.579
Well, you know she's going to come back.

772
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:35.280
And then you come back next week.

773
00:36:35.340 --> 00:36:36.900
You don't have Clara.

774
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.280
It's called the woman who lived.

775
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:42.960
There's a small highway man in inverted commas running around.

776
00:36:43.019 --> 00:36:44.519
It's like, who's this going to be?

777
00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:46.380
Whereas if she's been gone for a few weeks.

778
00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:48.780
You're like, when is she going to turn up?

779
00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:52.619
And I think it would be more fondly remembered, if that were the

780
00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:55.440
case, because it just feels like a ploy to get Maisie Williams in

781
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:56.579
because she was hot property.

782
00:36:56.639 --> 00:36:59.880
But isn't it doing the trick that the arc does?

783
00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:01.679
Isn't that what's happening?

784
00:37:01.739 --> 00:37:06.119
Like you go between episode 2 and episode 3 and you head into the

785
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:06.300
future.

786
00:37:06.360 --> 00:37:09.300
I think techniques of structuring television programs has evolved

787
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:10.739
a little since 1965 though.

788
00:37:11.880 --> 00:37:13.800
Not in Doctor Who.

789
00:37:13.860 --> 00:37:17.400
Look, my problem, I like the concept of the girl who died and the

790
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:19.559
woman who lived in, and I don't mind the girl who died actually

791
00:37:19.559 --> 00:37:22.320
and people who complain about Odin appearing in the sky and all

792
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.239
that stuff, that's just nonsense, because it's all completely

793
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:26.340
consistent, and Capaldi's reaction to it is great.

794
00:37:26.400 --> 00:37:29.400
I think you do that episode as the comedy episode, which you do.

795
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:32.639
I think it's disappointing for me that then the woman who lived, I

796
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:36.000
think it wastes the opportunity of, I think that needs to be a bit

797
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.199
more sombre, a bit darker.

798
00:37:37.260 --> 00:37:38.760
I find it too trite.

799
00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:42.539
And that's where it's like, this could be this concept is great.

800
00:37:42.599 --> 00:37:44.340
Let's do it a lot better.

801
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:45.659
It just needed a better episode.

802
00:37:46.139 --> 00:37:49.079
Well, no, but everything about it.

803
00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:50.639
It is fine apart from, well, everything about it.

804
00:37:50.699 --> 00:37:54.780
It's fine in terms of the concept is fine, but they just make it

805
00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:57.599
too silly and I think that's unnecessary.

806
00:37:57.719 --> 00:37:59.820
But then you've got Rufus Hound in it.

807
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:03.360
So it's always going to verge on the on the silliness side of

808
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:03.599
things.

809
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:06.239
I don't even know who that is.

810
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:07.619
No, I think you played the gum.

811
00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:10.500
Sam, Sam Swift. still don't know who that is.

812
00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:14.639
He's the meddling monk for Big Finish. you know who that is?

813
00:38:19.739 --> 00:38:23.519
I think we also lose out a bit in Series 9, and we didn't know

814
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.340
this at the time, but we have found out since that a writer was

815
00:38:26.340 --> 00:38:29.519
working on a story called How the Monk Got His Habit, and it was

816
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:33.780
going to be a Pre-Peter Butterworth Monk, played by Matt Berry.

817
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:34.920
Wow.

818
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:40.559
And he meddles so much that he actually has to become Rasputin.

819
00:38:40.619 --> 00:38:43.440
Otherwise, that otherwise history will be destroyed kind of

820
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:43.619
thing.

821
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:47.280
And losing that gives us the woman who lived, like that concept of

822
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:48.000
Sam Swift.

823
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:50.699
And the whole Beethoven's 5th thing.

824
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:51.840
So why does that all fall over?

825
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:54.719
I believe the writer was committed to other things.

826
00:38:54.780 --> 00:38:58.079
That would have been so toasty.

827
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.460
Absolutely.

828
00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:02.639
They absolutely should bring back the meddling punk and you know

829
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:03.420
who should play him.

830
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:04.440
David Mitchell.

831
00:39:05.219 --> 00:39:06.960
That would really work.

832
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:12.000
Disney would, you know, want to put someone with an even bigger

833
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:13.380
face, probably. don't know.

834
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:18.179
I have been here for 200 years waiting for William Shakespeare

835
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:19.260
only to find out he's me.

836
00:39:20.579 --> 00:39:23.760
Actually, that will be a really sweet duo.

837
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:28.440
Oh, we could have the massacre all over again.

838
00:39:29.099 --> 00:39:31.980
But no, I would love to see Matt Burying Doctor Who.

839
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:32.699
It's long overdue.

840
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:33.420
Yeah, yeah.

841
00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:35.159
He does a great Doctor Who theme.

842
00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:37.079
I have it right now.

843
00:39:37.139 --> 00:39:40.980
So I think I think that there's a there's a failure mode that

844
00:39:40.980 --> 00:39:44.340
Moffat does, which is because he's focussed on his characters and

845
00:39:44.340 --> 00:39:49.739
because it's drama and drama is about bad things happening to

846
00:39:49.739 --> 00:39:54.360
people on the whole, that 9 falls into this hole where everyone's

847
00:39:54.360 --> 00:39:57.599
having a really dreadful time and that's hard to watch.

848
00:39:57.659 --> 00:40:03.300
And when you compare it to, say, River Song in the Matt Smith era

849
00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:07.920
who is suffering this loss, you know, is anticipating the end of

850
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:12.059
her relationship with the doctor, but she's still determined to

851
00:40:12.059 --> 00:40:12.480
have fun.

852
00:40:12.539 --> 00:40:15.480
She's in prison, but she's fun and funny.

853
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.280
And there's a lightness to that.

854
00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:20.400
Even though terrible things are happening in the Matt Smith era.

855
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:26.219
It never feels quite as ground down as series 9 does.

856
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:28.019
That's just because of the doctor as well.

857
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:29.639
He is a lighter, brighter person.

858
00:40:29.699 --> 00:40:30.179
Yeah, yeah.

859
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:33.719
Something that series 9 made me think of at the time and still

860
00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:36.900
does is the earlier seasons of The Walking Dead.

861
00:40:36.960 --> 00:40:39.719
Because, you know, I fell off that show around season three.

862
00:40:39.780 --> 00:40:44.820
But especially the 1st season, it's 6 very tight episodes.

863
00:40:44.820 --> 00:40:47.880
There are characters who are quickly introduced and then

864
00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.820
dispatched, but they're well, they're well characterised.

865
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.440
You care when they go, but getting through series 2, which was

866
00:40:55.440 --> 00:40:59.820
longer was in such a slog because it is so dark, even though the

867
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:02.099
character is great, even though the story is great, even though

868
00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:06.719
the stakes make you invested, it's hard to get through.

869
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:09.900
And, you know, that was a big property at the same time.

870
00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:14.219
And I have to wonder if that style of TV storytelling that Game of

871
00:41:14.219 --> 00:41:17.940
Thrones Vikings, I think, was around at that time as well, then

872
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:20.219
you know, influenced Stephen Moffatt because something Richard

873
00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:24.239
always says is, you know, Doctor Who does what other shows do at

874
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:24.780
the same time.

875
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:26.699
It looks around to what other entertainment's doing.

876
00:41:26.699 --> 00:41:27.900
Or 5 years after.

877
00:41:27.900 --> 00:41:29.579
Or 5 years, or 5 years after.

878
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:32.400
Yeah, you can't turn a cruise ship on a sixpence.

879
00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:35.159
But yeah, I have to wonder if maybe they then get to the end of

880
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:37.380
this and go, oh, no, God, let's have some fun next year.

881
00:41:38.940 --> 00:41:43.260
Where do we all now sit with Peter as the doctor, having watched

882
00:41:43.260 --> 00:41:45.360
him all the way through again?

883
00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:46.920
What's his legacy?

884
00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:49.800
What's your feelings towards what is brought to the show?

885
00:41:50.340 --> 00:41:52.800
I think he's my favourite.

886
00:41:52.860 --> 00:41:57.780
Like, Stephen Moffat has not always been particularly successful

887
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:03.659
with casting in his TV shows over the years, although post-doctor

888
00:42:03.659 --> 00:42:08.219
Who, he's tended to be able to get better people in for his shows

889
00:42:08.219 --> 00:42:15.119
but he, I think, casts the 2 best actors to play the doctor.

890
00:42:15.179 --> 00:42:15.960
Unquestionably.

891
00:42:16.019 --> 00:42:21.119
I was going to say Capaldi is not actually my favourite, but I

892
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:22.380
think he might be one of the best.

893
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:26.159
Nuance colour and range, just what he brings to it.

894
00:42:26.219 --> 00:42:28.079
And that's why season 10 works for me.

895
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:28.739
It's Bill.

896
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:30.780
It's the refresher and Nardol.

897
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:33.360
And yes, absolutely, it's Michelle.

898
00:42:33.420 --> 00:42:36.239
But it's actually Peter responding to all of them.

899
00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:38.699
He's the showrunner, not Stephen Moffat.

900
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:42.360
The doctor is the showrunner as far as the viewer is concerned.

901
00:42:42.420 --> 00:42:44.460
And all of the subtleties.

902
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:45.840
And you can, I, I don't know.

903
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:48.239
I mean, we met at this because we know so much about it.

904
00:42:48.300 --> 00:42:53.340
But my gut, and what you were both just saying, is that Capaldi

905
00:42:53.340 --> 00:42:57.119
has watched all the horrors that have gone on behind the scenes

906
00:42:57.119 --> 00:43:00.239
for poor Stephen Moffat and Paul Mark Gatis and everybody else

907
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:05.699
involved, and that mess that Stephen had to bring together, and

908
00:43:05.699 --> 00:43:07.559
even in, you know, in season nine.

909
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:09.599
There were huge problems going on for him.

910
00:43:09.659 --> 00:43:13.980
And I think Capaldi just does that pert wee thing of the big chook

911
00:43:13.980 --> 00:43:16.980
with the big fluttery cape wings.

912
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:19.559
You can just see him bringing everyone together and the doctor

913
00:43:19.559 --> 00:43:24.119
himself calms down and knows he is in control and there is a

914
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:25.679
subtlety in what he does.

915
00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:29.340
And when he goes to the depths, it's absolutely to the depths and

916
00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:32.159
it's just a look in the eye, Capelli nails this season.

917
00:43:32.219 --> 00:43:36.300
Well, you were talking about the big fluttery chicken wings and

918
00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:39.179
season nine, I could only picture the time monster.

919
00:43:39.659 --> 00:43:42.480
Well, that is exactly what I was referring to.

920
00:43:42.780 --> 00:43:44.219
Thank you very much.

921
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.039
A naked Benton.

922
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:49.139
James?

923
00:43:49.139 --> 00:43:52.380
I agree with everything that's been said about Capaldi.

924
00:43:52.440 --> 00:43:55.440
He is he's my favourite. actor to play the doctor.

925
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:57.059
I wouldn't have said that.

926
00:43:57.179 --> 00:43:59.519
I mean, for many years it would have been Sylves McCoy, obviously

927
00:44:00.420 --> 00:44:04.380
because of Sylvester was my doctor when I was a kid.

928
00:44:04.440 --> 00:44:10.739
But Caboldi is just, like, there's so much variety in his

929
00:44:10.739 --> 00:44:11.460
performance.

930
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:17.400
There's so much colour there and he is the best actor to regularly

931
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:18.539
play this character.

932
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:20.820
He's actually the Maggie Smith of Doctor.

933
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:24.599
And I don't mean, if you've seen Miss Jean Brody.

934
00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:26.039
Has anyone seen that recently?

935
00:44:26.099 --> 00:44:27.659
I'm in my prime.

936
00:44:28.260 --> 00:44:31.320
I know, and she does the Capaldi accent.

937
00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:34.019
It's a wonderful book, you know, Mural Spark was a Bletchly

938
00:44:34.019 --> 00:44:38.820
codebreaker and devout hater of other women. in that she would

939
00:44:38.820 --> 00:44:40.980
pick the characters of failure apart.

940
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.960
But Smith won that Oscar through the nuance and variety and just

941
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:48.300
an eye, just the change of emotion.

942
00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:51.420
And I was thinking of her when I was watching Capaldi this year.

943
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:53.400
Brendan?

944
00:44:53.460 --> 00:44:58.679
Something I found sort of rewatching his era in close succession

945
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:04.320
for the podcast is, and I think this is something that comes from

946
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:05.340
Peter Capaldi himself.

947
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:07.980
So famously, his doctor wears a very chunky ring.

948
00:45:08.039 --> 00:45:11.639
And the reason he wears that ring is Peter Capello, the actor, did

949
00:45:11.639 --> 00:45:13.199
not want to remove his wedding band.

950
00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:16.440
He adores his wife to the point that I've seen an interview at a

951
00:45:16.440 --> 00:45:19.260
convention where someone calls him a silver fox and then the

952
00:45:19.260 --> 00:45:22.440
interviewer has to explain what silver fox is and he gets terribly

953
00:45:22.440 --> 00:45:24.960
embarrassed and says, well, you'd have to ask my wife about that

954
00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:25.619
you know.

955
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:32.940
But I think what he brings to the doctor is this very guarded love

956
00:45:32.940 --> 00:45:38.639
and affection, which he masks with contempt and rudeness and what

957
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:39.059
have you.

958
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:44.340
But it's absolutely there from the beginning when he says to Clara

959
00:45:44.340 --> 00:45:45.659
I'm not your boyfriend.

960
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:46.980
I didn't say it was your mistake.

961
00:45:47.039 --> 00:45:52.619
You know, um, much in the same way that Sylvester McCoy says a big

962
00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:56.699
core of his character was thinking this is a very old person and

963
00:45:56.699 --> 00:45:58.019
everyone they know is gone.

964
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.239
And what does that do to you?

965
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:06.900
I think what Capaldi hooks into is that, but also he's loved all

966
00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:07.320
these people.

967
00:46:07.619 --> 00:46:11.820
And so when we get to the end of his era and he doesn't want to

968
00:46:11.820 --> 00:46:13.440
regenerate, he doesn't want to go on.

969
00:46:13.500 --> 00:46:16.320
At the time, I really hated that.

970
00:46:16.380 --> 00:46:19.199
But watching it all sort of compress close together.

971
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:21.960
It's like, no, that is totally in keeping with this character.

972
00:46:22.260 --> 00:46:25.920
He's not my favourite of the new ones.

973
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:28.980
That's still Christopher Eccleston, and I think it's the Sylvester

974
00:46:28.980 --> 00:46:29.699
McCoy effect.

975
00:46:29.820 --> 00:46:32.099
He was my doctor as well along with James.

976
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.260
So it's like Christopher Eccleston brings it back.

977
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.400
He saves Doctor Who, like so many other people do at that time as

978
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:39.360
well.

979
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:41.880
But yeah, there is no moment.

980
00:46:41.940 --> 00:46:45.000
I saw Peter Capaldi as a doctor where I'm like, no, you should

981
00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:45.599
have done that differently.

982
00:46:45.659 --> 00:46:47.820
And I'm including like very early stuff.

983
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.639
Like, I know people criticise his comedy and robot of Sherwood.

984
00:46:50.699 --> 00:46:52.980
No, I think he absolutely nails that.

985
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:53.820
They're wrong.

986
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:55.019
It's very nice to do.

987
00:46:55.079 --> 00:46:55.559
Yeah.

988
00:46:56.519 --> 00:47:02.159
I think he's the one actor who doesn't put a foot wrong in his

989
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:06.480
portrayal, and it's consistent and believable and concrete, and I

990
00:47:06.480 --> 00:47:09.659
find it so interesting that he's declined to return for big finish

991
00:47:09.659 --> 00:47:13.320
and I think it's a matter of maybe, you know, it's like it's a

992
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:14.340
perfect part of his life.

993
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:16.800
Why revisit it?

994
00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:21.239
You know, famously, he was so thrilled when Jenna stayed on

995
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:22.320
because he adored Jenna.

996
00:47:22.380 --> 00:47:24.900
And then Pearl comes along and Pearl has spoken about how much

997
00:47:24.900 --> 00:47:26.519
Peter adored her and welcomed her.

998
00:47:26.579 --> 00:47:29.699
I think for him, it's just, this is a perfect discrete 4 years of

999
00:47:29.699 --> 00:47:30.000
my life.

1000
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:34.739
And he's actually said that in interviews since he's been asked to

1001
00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:38.760
come back and said, no, to me, the doctor is something I

1002
00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:39.360
inhabited.

1003
00:47:39.420 --> 00:47:42.780
It was this moment in my life that, you know, it's a whole thing.

1004
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:44.940
Yeah, I can't revisit it.

1005
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.820
That was around him not so saying in advance that he wouldn't come

1006
00:47:47.820 --> 00:47:49.920
back if invited for a 60th, I think, wasn't it?

1007
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:54.300
I think also, wasn't that also to do with that argument that he

1008
00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:58.260
wants his successes to have clear air before the previous doctor

1009
00:47:58.260 --> 00:47:58.739
come back?

1010
00:47:58.800 --> 00:47:59.340
So it comes back.

1011
00:47:59.400 --> 00:48:00.900
So I wouldn't necessarily say he'll never do.

1012
00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:03.119
Oh no. anything, but certainly at this moment in time.

1013
00:48:03.179 --> 00:48:05.760
So, Simon, your thoughts?

1014
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:09.539
Look, I agree with you that I think he doesn't put it foot wrong.

1015
00:48:09.599 --> 00:48:11.699
I don't think Matt Smith puts a fit foot wrong either.

1016
00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:13.500
Disagree.

1017
00:48:13.500 --> 00:48:16.559
I think he has one or 2 moments. victory of the Daleks, for

1018
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:16.860
instance.

1019
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:18.420
I think he's not quite there yet.

1020
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:22.019
Some of those sequences in Nightmare and Silver, where he's enough

1021
00:48:22.019 --> 00:48:22.920
to do things.

1022
00:48:22.920 --> 00:48:23.400
Yeah, yeah.

1023
00:48:23.460 --> 00:48:24.659
Maybe I'll forgive some of those.

1024
00:48:24.719 --> 00:48:27.239
I don't see them as wrongfooted.

1025
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:32.039
Like I've seen happened since the computer Capaldi era, as you

1026
00:48:32.039 --> 00:48:32.340
say.

1027
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.559
But the thing is that I was mournful when Matt Smith left because

1028
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:40.380
I thought, oh, they'd only got their act together and they could

1029
00:48:40.380 --> 00:48:41.460
be, there could be another season.

1030
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:42.659
He could have done another season.

1031
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:43.500
He's so brilliant.

1032
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:44.760
He's just such a perfect doctor.

1033
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:45.360
I love him.

1034
00:48:45.539 --> 00:48:52.199
I'm also mournful when Capaldi left for a similar reason, but I

1035
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.619
thought that Matt had been very well served by the material he'd

1036
00:48:55.619 --> 00:48:56.039
been given.

1037
00:48:56.099 --> 00:49:00.420
Whereas whilst I think that Capelli never puts a foot wrong, and I

1038
00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:03.119
do think he's personification, the doctor is fantastic and there's

1039
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.340
a lot of subtlety there and he works with it all.

1040
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:09.360
It's the fact that I don't think he's nearly as well served by the

1041
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:13.500
writing as he could have been and should have been and I think he

1042
00:49:13.500 --> 00:49:17.400
saves a lot of things that would otherwise, in lesser hands, be

1043
00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:18.900
dull, dull, dull.

1044
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:21.659
That's what I was going to say earlier, Simon, the acid, the

1045
00:49:21.659 --> 00:49:25.860
traditional acid test for any doctor is, are you bereft when they

1046
00:49:25.860 --> 00:49:26.280
leave?

1047
00:49:26.280 --> 00:49:28.860
Or are you interested in what comes next and that's fine?

1048
00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.019
They've done their stretch and you enjoyed it and that's great.

1049
00:49:31.079 --> 00:49:35.400
Both of Mothat's doctors, Matt Smith and Peter Capaldi, you want

1050
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.559
that next season for both of them.

1051
00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:39.300
I agree with you, Peter.

1052
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:42.179
I absolutely adore Capaldi in the role.

1053
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:44.400
And I think what you're saying, Simon, is right.

1054
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:48.840
He saved so much, and I think for me, that is a huge thing, whereas

1055
00:49:48.840 --> 00:49:51.420
I think Matt gets delivered material that he can do, and he does

1056
00:49:51.420 --> 00:49:55.260
it well rather than there's moments where I think needs saving

1057
00:49:55.260 --> 00:49:56.340
that he doesn't save.

1058
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:59.940
And there's only a few, but it's enough for me.

1059
00:50:00.000 --> 00:50:01.079
I mean, I love Matt Smith.

1060
00:50:01.139 --> 00:50:04.019
They're my favourite 2 doctors by far. in the new series.

1061
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:09.000
But for me, coming back to this watching whole era, seeing his

1062
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:12.239
evolution, the doctor's evolution, just the way he portrays that

1063
00:50:12.239 --> 00:50:14.460
his hair, his hair.

1064
00:50:14.519 --> 00:50:15.300
Yeah, totally.

1065
00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:16.260
The costume.

1066
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:18.900
Like, it's really interesting to see, like, even with the costume

1067
00:50:18.900 --> 00:50:20.340
it's not just a set.

1068
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.460
I'm in a costume, the same costume, right?

1069
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:24.960
It's not silhouette.

1070
00:50:25.019 --> 00:50:28.019
He actually changes shirts and all that sort of stuff and then he

1071
00:50:28.019 --> 00:50:29.940
has the more formal and the less formal and all that sort of

1072
00:50:29.940 --> 00:50:30.179
thing.

1073
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:30.780
And I love that.

1074
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:31.860
And the hoodie.

1075
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:34.320
Yeah, it's fantastic.

1076
00:50:34.380 --> 00:50:38.400
But I'd go further than what you were saying before, Simon.

1077
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:40.679
It's not that he saves this material.

1078
00:50:40.739 --> 00:50:41.639
He lifts it.

1079
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:43.440
Like, even when a story...

1080
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:44.400
Okay, that's a better way of expressing it.

1081
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:49.679
Yeah, even when a story is, yeah, he is nothing short of brilliant

1082
00:50:49.679 --> 00:50:51.420
in it.

1083
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.599
Can I say he brings new meaning to the concept of talking urgently

1084
00:50:54.599 --> 00:50:55.380
in corridors?

1085
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:57.000
He really does.

1086
00:50:57.119 --> 00:50:58.320
That's a lot of it.

1087
00:50:58.380 --> 00:50:59.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1088
00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:01.860
No, but you can see he's raised on that on that classic material.

1089
00:51:01.920 --> 00:51:07.139
He understands how to heighten a sequence where there's just 3

1090
00:51:07.139 --> 00:51:09.059
people standing by a flat wall.

1091
00:51:09.179 --> 00:51:11.519
And that's the important thing for us who are reared on the

1092
00:51:11.519 --> 00:51:12.179
classic series.

1093
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:15.900
I think Peter Cabaldi's doctor is a doctor who is looking back to

1094
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:19.019
the classic series and the way he's presented and we are primed to

1095
00:51:19.019 --> 00:51:19.440
like that.

1096
00:51:19.500 --> 00:51:20.400
He's recognisable.

1097
00:51:20.460 --> 00:51:26.579
Also, he brings to it something that, say, only David Tennant

1098
00:51:26.579 --> 00:51:30.059
could bring to the role, which is an understanding of the show as

1099
00:51:30.059 --> 00:51:30.719
a fan.

1100
00:51:30.780 --> 00:51:34.800
Like, no other doctors, apart from the 2 of them, have maybe the

1101
00:51:34.800 --> 00:51:40.619
original Peter. our fans in the sense that we are fans, that he

1102
00:51:40.619 --> 00:51:44.760
understands the DNA of the show because he has watched every

1103
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:50.460
episode a 1000000 times and can quote lines from the arc.

1104
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:52.980
It's always the arc.

1105
00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:55.980
That's an elephant in that.

1106
00:51:56.280 --> 00:52:01.139
Although they came 2nd or 3rd at the Comic Con, Doctor Who

1107
00:52:01.139 --> 00:52:01.679
trivia.

1108
00:52:01.679 --> 00:52:02.400
Do you remember that one?

1109
00:52:02.460 --> 00:52:04.920
Yes, I thought they came from practically last.

1110
00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:07.019
Third or so, it wasn't good.

1111
00:52:07.139 --> 00:52:09.239
There weren't a lot of arc questions.

1112
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:14.760
It's the thing that I said before about Gaitas, knowing what

1113
00:52:14.760 --> 00:52:15.360
worked.

1114
00:52:15.420 --> 00:52:17.579
That's what Capoldi does.

1115
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:22.679
And the place that I really noticed at this time is in The Girl

1116
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:28.320
Who Died, which is an episode about who the doctor is and what he

1117
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:33.179
does and where all of the structure is on display and Capoli is

1118
00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:38.940
sort of rummaging through previous performances, actors in the

1119
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:39.300
role.

1120
00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:43.800
Tom, John, and just absolutely getting it 100% Ryan.

1121
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:03.840
Peter is one of Stephen Moffat's doctors. lets segue into Stephen

1122
00:53:03.840 --> 00:53:05.039
Moffat's time on the show.

1123
00:53:05.099 --> 00:53:07.800
His other doctors, obviously, include Matt Smith.

1124
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.019
Jim Broadband.

1125
00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:11.400
John Hurt.

1126
00:53:11.460 --> 00:53:13.320
Joanne, talk about the ones here.

1127
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:16.260
Let's talk about John Hurt.

1128
00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:21.239
What are your feelings now on his performance in Day of the Doctor

1129
00:53:21.239 --> 00:53:23.280
and reflect on what Stephen had to do there?

1130
00:53:23.340 --> 00:53:26.159
General witch finders, ask this question.

1131
00:53:26.219 --> 00:53:30.059
How different would it have been to have 9 in Dave the doctor

1132
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:31.139
rather than the war doctor?

1133
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:31.679
Would it have worked?

1134
00:53:31.739 --> 00:53:32.880
Sharper.

1135
00:53:32.940 --> 00:53:34.679
It would have been more astringent.

1136
00:53:34.739 --> 00:53:35.880
He's brilliant.

1137
00:53:35.940 --> 00:53:40.559
Hurt is brilliant and brings gravitas and history and like

1138
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:46.019
clavitives levels of heaviness and pain, but it's not the same.

1139
00:53:46.079 --> 00:53:49.679
He does the thing that we were just talking about with Capaldi in

1140
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:51.659
that he represents a classic serious doctor.

1141
00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:52.199
Yeah.

1142
00:53:52.260 --> 00:53:56.219
Well, it's in fact what we talked about in twice upon a time where

1143
00:53:56.219 --> 00:54:02.639
Moffat redoes what he does in the day of the doctor with the war

1144
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:07.920
doctor, because you've got Capaldi's doctor reacting against a

1145
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:12.059
classic series doctor, and Capaldi's doctor is slightly

1146
00:54:12.059 --> 00:54:16.019
embarrassed by the classic series doctor and vice versa.

1147
00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:20.099
And that's definitely what's going on.

1148
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:23.760
You know, with the stuff about waving your magic wands and saying

1149
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:28.260
timey-wimey, and all of that sort of contempt that John Hertz

1150
00:54:28.260 --> 00:54:32.579
doctor has for these 2 successors and then he learns that they're

1151
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:36.900
heroes and why it's worth continuing on to become them.

1152
00:54:36.960 --> 00:54:39.300
And he's really similar to twice upon a time.

1153
00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:40.380
Now that I think about it.

1154
00:54:40.440 --> 00:54:44.820
And so he does that job of being a classic series doctor, the way

1155
00:54:44.820 --> 00:54:49.739
that John Sim in world enough and time does the job of being a

1156
00:54:49.739 --> 00:54:52.079
classic series master as well.

1157
00:54:52.139 --> 00:54:57.719
I think the disappointing thing, and I know why Moffatt didn't do

1158
00:54:57.719 --> 00:55:05.099
it, is that it wasn't one of the doctors that we loved that pushed

1159
00:55:05.099 --> 00:55:05.579
the button.

1160
00:55:05.639 --> 00:55:13.739
Imagine how we would feel if in story, Eccleston or Paul McGann

1161
00:55:13.739 --> 00:55:16.619
had pushed the button and killed 1000000000s of people.

1162
00:55:16.619 --> 00:55:22.320
And because Moffatt can't believe that the doctor would ever do

1163
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:27.840
that, when he gets hold of the show and when he gets a big enough

1164
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:33.300
event to superintend, he makes it so that that never happened.

1165
00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:38.820
And so by giving it to a doctor that we don't know otherwise, he

1166
00:55:38.820 --> 00:55:44.280
leaves our doctors kind of somewhat less genocidal than they might

1167
00:55:44.280 --> 00:55:45.059
have been otherwise.

1168
00:55:45.420 --> 00:55:49.380
Having said a few minutes ago, that Eccleston is my favourite

1169
00:55:49.380 --> 00:55:50.519
doctor of the new series.

1170
00:55:50.579 --> 00:55:51.780
I was disappointed.

1171
00:55:51.900 --> 00:55:54.119
I was disappointed that he chose not to come back.

1172
00:55:54.179 --> 00:55:57.420
You know, I entirely understand his reasoning for not wanting to

1173
00:55:57.420 --> 00:55:57.840
come back.

1174
00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.199
And also, I really respect the way both he and Moffatt tell the

1175
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:03.900
story of, you know, they discussed it in person.

1176
00:56:03.960 --> 00:56:09.000
They talked, and Chris then let him down in person and said, no

1177
00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:09.900
I'm really sorry.

1178
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:12.539
I can't, but, you know, you have my blessing to use my image, et

1179
00:56:12.539 --> 00:56:13.440
cetera, et cetera.

1180
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:17.219
So getting past that disappointment, I think he would have been

1181
00:56:17.219 --> 00:56:19.019
absolutely brilliant in it.

1182
00:56:19.019 --> 00:56:22.380
It's impossible to say he would have been better than John Hurt

1183
00:56:22.380 --> 00:56:24.179
because it's John Hurt, you know.

1184
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:27.239
Yeah, John Hurt was a cartoon dragon in Merlin.

1185
00:56:27.960 --> 00:56:34.019
My point is, it would be like saying, okay, we can have Alex

1186
00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:36.420
Kingston for this Christmas special or Maggie Smith.

1187
00:56:36.480 --> 00:56:40.019
You know, it's no insult to Alex Kingston to say, give me a

1188
00:56:40.019 --> 00:56:41.219
Christmas special with Maggie Smith.

1189
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:41.820
You know what I mean?

1190
00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:42.719
Yeah.

1191
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:46.380
But what I what I love so much about how he comes in and does it

1192
00:56:46.380 --> 00:56:50.159
is he said in interviews that he hadn't watched Doctor Who since

1193
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:50.760
the 60s.

1194
00:56:50.820 --> 00:56:51.840
He hadn't kept up with it.

1195
00:56:51.900 --> 00:56:53.460
He didn't know anything about it.

1196
00:56:53.519 --> 00:56:56.340
And it was actually his wife who said to him, you do realise how

1197
00:56:56.340 --> 00:56:57.900
seriously you have to take this.

1198
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.000
Like, this is a cultural institution.

1199
00:57:00.059 --> 00:57:05.099
It's not just running around in corridors and it's going to be fun

1200
00:57:05.099 --> 00:57:06.239
but you have to take it seriously.

1201
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:09.539
And he says, you know, that made me actually think about who this

1202
00:57:09.539 --> 00:57:11.099
character is, et cetera, et cetera.

1203
00:57:11.219 --> 00:57:15.420
So he approaches it with the same level of commitment as any of

1204
00:57:15.420 --> 00:57:19.380
the main actors who've played it, but also with the knowledge that

1205
00:57:19.380 --> 00:57:21.780
he can do whatever he likes for 90 minutes and that he's out.

1206
00:57:21.840 --> 00:57:24.840
And that brings a little bit of a twinkle.

1207
00:57:24.900 --> 00:57:28.380
And I think possibly the scene than I would have loved to see

1208
00:57:28.380 --> 00:57:33.420
Eccleston most in is actually the scene in the unit vault when

1209
00:57:33.420 --> 00:57:35.639
John Hertz doctor is talking to Clara.

1210
00:57:35.699 --> 00:57:37.800
And she figures it out.

1211
00:57:37.860 --> 00:57:41.340
I would have loved to see Eccleston play that because we have only

1212
00:57:41.340 --> 00:57:44.099
seen that kind of chemistry with Eccleston in the role with Billy

1213
00:57:44.099 --> 00:57:44.579
Piper.

1214
00:57:44.639 --> 00:57:47.699
And I would have loved to see that with Jenna Coleman, who is a

1215
00:57:47.699 --> 00:57:51.539
fantastic actor, attributed to the fact that there's like 3

1216
00:57:51.539 --> 00:57:55.559
doctors that she has brilliant chemistry with. would have made

1217
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:58.679
those scenes in the barn with the moment and the John Hurt slash

1218
00:57:58.679 --> 00:58:00.719
Christopher Eccleston doctor, quite meaningful.

1219
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:01.739
Oh, absolutely.

1220
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:02.460
And you know what?

1221
00:58:02.460 --> 00:58:06.360
I'm, uh, hats off to Moffatt for, you know, obviously he wanted

1222
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:08.579
Christopher Eccleston and Billy Piper together again.

1223
00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:10.139
He loses Christopher Eccleston.

1224
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:12.900
He doesn't then say, oh, well, get rid of Billy Piper.

1225
00:58:12.960 --> 00:58:13.800
I mean, why would you?

1226
00:58:13.860 --> 00:58:14.579
Why would you?

1227
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:18.480
But also it would be totally sensible for him to then go, you know

1228
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:18.659
what?

1229
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:21.900
This is a great opportunity to bring in Lullaward as the moment.

1230
00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:22.500
Jackie.

1231
00:58:22.619 --> 00:58:25.559
Why does he always come back to poor old Jackie Lane?

1232
00:58:25.619 --> 00:58:27.059
It's the arc connection.

1233
00:58:27.179 --> 00:58:30.360
Yeah, I would have loved to see Eccleston back, but I'm not sorry

1234
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:31.199
we have John Hurtle.

1235
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:46.860
So we're moving back in time now to Stephen Moffat and his legacy

1236
00:58:46.860 --> 00:58:49.199
and what he brought to the show to begin with.

1237
00:58:49.260 --> 00:58:53.519
And of course, that's Matt Smith and Karen and Arthur.

1238
00:58:53.579 --> 00:58:56.460
How do you feel about all these things now, Simon?

1239
00:58:56.519 --> 00:59:02.099
Well, I mean, he is the best show runner that the 21st century has

1240
00:59:02.099 --> 00:59:04.380
had by a substantial margin.

1241
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:09.300
And even though despite the fact that some of the lows are maybe a

1242
00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:13.320
little bit lower than what we've had up to this point with one or

1243
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:14.639
2 exceptions, I fear her.

1244
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:19.019
But aside from that, the highs are just far, far higher.

1245
00:59:19.019 --> 00:59:23.820
And I think what Moffatt did was he's the only one of the 21st

1246
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:26.940
century who I think truly understands what makes the show

1247
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:27.780
magical.

1248
00:59:27.900 --> 00:59:30.599
And he's certainly not trying to dumb it down, which is the fear

1249
00:59:30.599 --> 00:59:33.719
that I have with, I think of a lot of the RTD stuff, but we sort

1250
00:59:33.719 --> 00:59:34.199
of discussed that.

1251
00:59:34.260 --> 00:59:35.400
I discussed that at length before.

1252
00:59:35.460 --> 00:59:39.239
My only regret is that he actually stays too long.

1253
00:59:39.300 --> 00:59:42.840
Like JNT, who I think is also in his own way a very good

1254
00:59:42.840 --> 00:59:43.440
showrunner.

1255
00:59:43.500 --> 00:59:45.840
I think there is not enough gas in the tank.

1256
00:59:45.900 --> 00:59:48.179
Now, it's odd, because of course, some of the very last episodes

1257
00:59:48.179 --> 00:59:50.579
that he does are some of the best he does.

1258
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:51.480
Much like JNT.

1259
00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:52.559
Much like JNT.

1260
00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:55.559
In fact, maybe it's because he knows he really is leaving at that

1261
00:59:55.559 --> 00:59:55.739
point.

1262
00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:59.880
But I think, like, there is something unfortunate about staying

1263
00:59:59.880 --> 01:00:02.519
that little bit too long and I think that it would have been nicer

1264
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:06.480
if you'd have maybe done 4 seasons and then handed it to somebody

1265
01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:08.039
else, had that person been ready.

1266
01:00:08.099 --> 01:00:10.679
Do you know I'm going to say I don't think he actually stays too

1267
01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:10.860
long?

1268
01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:13.860
I think it's really interesting that we have a showrunner.

1269
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:17.639
The only showrunner slash classic series producer in the show's

1270
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:21.179
history who oversees 2 complete doctors eras?

1271
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.000
And I really like the fact that you can look at the Matt Smith era

1272
01:00:24.000 --> 01:00:25.739
and you can look at the PT bold era.

1273
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:29.039
They're both of the same length and the same Roth structure, and

1274
01:00:29.039 --> 01:00:32.699
yet they are sufficiently different from each other that you can

1275
01:00:32.699 --> 01:00:35.039
take away different things and enjoy things on a different level.

1276
01:00:35.099 --> 01:00:38.639
I think to have that mastery of the series where you can do that

1277
01:00:38.639 --> 01:00:41.340
and not just repeat yourself is something pretty wonderful.

1278
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:42.360
Nathan.

1279
01:00:42.420 --> 01:00:50.099
So I would say that there are significant flaws in his ability to

1280
01:00:50.099 --> 01:00:51.900
be a showrunner.

1281
01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:56.579
And I think while he is one of the best writers that the show has

1282
01:00:56.579 --> 01:01:01.559
ever had, including the classic series, I don't think he's the

1283
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:04.860
best showrunner, and I think that Russell T. Davis does a better

1284
01:01:04.860 --> 01:01:12.360
job of getting the show made during his era and of giving it a

1285
01:01:12.360 --> 01:01:19.320
sort of consistent feel and getting it to be a big thing in the

1286
01:01:19.320 --> 01:01:20.519
public's consciousness.

1287
01:01:20.579 --> 01:01:25.860
And none of those things are things that Moffatt is that good at

1288
01:01:25.860 --> 01:01:30.539
and there are all kinds of reasons for that as well that we know

1289
01:01:30.539 --> 01:01:38.099
about that Richard alluded to earlier, but the show does start to

1290
01:01:38.099 --> 01:01:42.659
go off the boil as far as audience is concerned and some of that's

1291
01:01:42.659 --> 01:01:43.920
just inevitable.

1292
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:46.380
Yeah, after a period of time.

1293
01:01:46.440 --> 01:01:51.300
But Doctor Who has the ability to reinvent itself and to kind of

1294
01:01:51.300 --> 01:01:54.659
claw back or kind of renew its audience.

1295
01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:55.679
Do you know what I mean?

1296
01:01:55.739 --> 01:02:01.199
There's always 8 to 10 year olds graduating into doctors and if

1297
01:02:01.199 --> 01:02:04.320
they were doing that in 2015, they were going to have a pretty

1298
01:02:04.320 --> 01:02:06.000
rough time of it, I think.

1299
01:02:06.420 --> 01:02:10.019
But I love how he writes.

1300
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:12.960
I love what the show is like during his time.

1301
01:02:13.380 --> 01:02:15.420
And that's what I'm talking about, not talking about.

1302
01:02:15.420 --> 01:02:18.119
And that's why I think the whole modern concept of Showrunner is

1303
01:02:18.119 --> 01:02:18.420
wrong.

1304
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:21.719
It needs to be, you need to have the creative side and you need to

1305
01:02:21.719 --> 01:02:25.320
have the the production side to say, make sure it's done on time.

1306
01:02:25.380 --> 01:02:28.139
Make sure they're at conventions and make sure they're spinning

1307
01:02:28.139 --> 01:02:29.099
the show correctly in the media.

1308
01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:30.840
I agree with you from that point of view.

1309
01:02:30.900 --> 01:02:32.280
He's not a great show runner.

1310
01:02:32.340 --> 01:02:36.119
The creative direction of the show. just streets ahead of the

1311
01:02:36.119 --> 01:02:39.840
blandness and cheesiness that we've had before.

1312
01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:42.719
It would be better if they'd split those 2 roles.

1313
01:02:42.780 --> 01:02:47.820
Exactly. head writer and and and that left all the production side

1314
01:02:47.820 --> 01:02:48.900
of things to everybody else.

1315
01:02:48.960 --> 01:02:53.039
But I think that's the main failing of the way that the show is

1316
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:53.820
produced at the time.

1317
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:55.380
And also Sherlock.

1318
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:58.260
Like he has 2 of the biggest shows on television.

1319
01:02:58.320 --> 01:02:59.400
But that's not our problem.

1320
01:02:59.460 --> 01:03:02.639
You know, then say no to something.

1321
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:03.300
You know what I mean?

1322
01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:04.800
That's enough. you know?

1323
01:03:05.099 --> 01:03:08.159
I'm actually going to reverse what Nathan was saying about, you

1324
01:03:08.159 --> 01:03:10.500
know, you're going to eventually go downhill.

1325
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:14.639
I think Moffa actually staves that off in concert with Matt

1326
01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:15.119
Smith.

1327
01:03:15.179 --> 01:03:19.380
I think the time is for long off the boil was after David Tennant

1328
01:03:19.380 --> 01:03:21.179
this incredibly popular doctor left.

1329
01:03:21.239 --> 01:03:25.199
Instead, they sustain that for the next three, maybe 4 years, and

1330
01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:26.039
that's pretty impressive.

1331
01:03:26.099 --> 01:03:28.079
Yeah, I'd say maybe 2 years, but yes.

1332
01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:30.000
Well, until the 50th anniversary.

1333
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:30.659
Yeah, that's right.

1334
01:03:30.659 --> 01:03:33.059
They get the goodwill to the 50th based on the 2 years they've

1335
01:03:33.059 --> 01:03:33.539
done previous.

1336
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:34.440
Yeah, yeah.

1337
01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:36.059
Maybe even Peter's 1st season.

1338
01:03:36.119 --> 01:03:39.480
And I still think the parallel to the 20th anniversary applies

1339
01:03:39.480 --> 01:03:39.840
actually.

1340
01:03:39.900 --> 01:03:43.500
It's sort of like we're here at this and maybe it's time to...

1341
01:03:43.500 --> 01:03:47.219
And basically the media after the anniversary, the hangover after

1342
01:03:47.219 --> 01:03:49.860
the 20th and 50th anniversaries, I think, are very, very similar.

1343
01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:53.880
One of the things I've loved revisiting this is things that you've

1344
01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:58.679
said, Nathan, regarding Stephen reacting to what he's done before

1345
01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:03.300
and also looking at his mistakes and seeing what he, you know, how

1346
01:04:03.300 --> 01:04:04.920
he can better himself.

1347
01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:08.699
And I think that's been amazing to see and watch throughout this

1348
01:04:08.699 --> 01:04:09.000
run.

1349
01:04:09.059 --> 01:04:13.019
Yeah, I guess the other thing that I would say is that Russell T

1350
01:04:13.019 --> 01:04:19.500
Davis has a much clearer idea of what Doctor Who should be, and

1351
01:04:19.500 --> 01:04:23.460
that is an advantage and a disadvantage, I think.

1352
01:04:23.519 --> 01:04:27.300
I think because Moffatt goes careening all over the place.

1353
01:04:27.360 --> 01:04:33.599
You get these incredible highs, but what you don't get is, you

1354
01:04:33.599 --> 01:04:36.539
know, the kind of consistency that you get from seasons one to

1355
01:04:36.539 --> 01:04:36.840
four.

1356
01:04:36.900 --> 01:04:40.320
Russell has clearer idea of what he wants Doctor Who to be.

1357
01:04:40.380 --> 01:04:43.079
I think Stephen Moffat has a clearer idea of what Simon wants

1358
01:04:43.079 --> 01:04:43.619
Doctor.

1359
01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:48.539
I think I think that's that's a little cruel.

1360
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:51.780
I would suggest that if I may expand on that.

1361
01:04:51.900 --> 01:04:54.960
Because obviously what I want Doctor Who to be is the correct

1362
01:04:54.960 --> 01:04:55.860
vision for the show.

1363
01:04:56.099 --> 01:04:57.900
Mostly silent.

1364
01:04:57.900 --> 01:05:01.260
But in some respects, Moffat is a bit truer to that originally

1365
01:05:01.260 --> 01:05:02.940
iteration, the show where it can be anything.

1366
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:07.079
And I think with Rusty Davies era, he succeeds in making it modern

1367
01:05:07.079 --> 01:05:07.679
television.

1368
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:10.920
And I am kind of spitting those words out slightly because, well

1369
01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:12.000
no, because it's that kind of thing.

1370
01:05:12.059 --> 01:05:15.000
It's like because it just becomes like every other show on

1371
01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:15.599
television.

1372
01:05:15.659 --> 01:05:18.420
And the reason I loved Doctors who was a kid was because it was

1373
01:05:18.420 --> 01:05:19.079
utterly different.

1374
01:05:32.820 --> 01:05:36.599
I'll take full credit for this entire discussion, which I planned

1375
01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:38.280
from the beginning, listeners.

1376
01:05:39.780 --> 01:05:44.159
But one of the things that in preparing for this, I started

1377
01:05:44.159 --> 01:05:48.000
reflecting on where all classic series fans, RTD years as well, as

1378
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:49.260
is Stephen Moffatt.

1379
01:05:49.320 --> 01:05:52.860
And it's interesting to see the different approaches, Russell has

1380
01:05:52.860 --> 01:05:57.900
families, like blood relatives, like actual families.

1381
01:05:57.960 --> 01:06:00.780
But Steven's much more classic series.

1382
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:03.000
If you look back at the classic series and every single companion

1383
01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:07.619
they're either an orphan, a single person with no other family

1384
01:06:07.619 --> 01:06:09.599
their whole family is destroyed.

1385
01:06:09.659 --> 01:06:13.019
It's really only Tegan who's got like an aunt, a cousin, a

1386
01:06:13.019 --> 01:06:16.380
grandfather for long. in some cases.

1387
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:21.300
And so all the companions are just singular, they're not in the

1388
01:06:21.300 --> 01:06:21.780
real world.

1389
01:06:21.840 --> 01:06:25.199
Like they're not really connected in classic series, like you've

1390
01:06:25.199 --> 01:06:28.139
got the unit family and that sort of thing. fit to work on sailors

1391
01:06:28.139 --> 01:06:28.440
really.

1392
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:32.219
But when you look at what Stephen brings, again, you look at the

1393
01:06:32.219 --> 01:06:36.719
families, like Amy's aunt, mother and father are barely in it, you

1394
01:06:36.719 --> 01:06:36.960
know?

1395
01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:38.940
Rory's the same.

1396
01:06:39.000 --> 01:06:40.860
Like his father's only into episodes.

1397
01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:43.260
Clara's family is in the background in a couple episodes.

1398
01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:44.519
But that's the point, isn't it?

1399
01:06:44.579 --> 01:06:46.739
That's all goes with nuclear families.

1400
01:06:46.800 --> 01:06:48.480
Moffat goes with constructed families.

1401
01:06:48.539 --> 01:06:51.360
Yeah, but how did you feel about that, Todd, watching the

1402
01:06:51.360 --> 01:06:51.659
difference?

1403
01:06:51.780 --> 01:06:54.659
Well, I'm just saying, like, it is a different thing.

1404
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:57.300
Like, this is what is Steven's.

1405
01:06:57.360 --> 01:06:59.460
He's constructing the families within.

1406
01:07:00.539 --> 01:07:03.000
You've got your unit family, you've got the past, the, I can never

1407
01:07:03.000 --> 01:07:03.360
say this.

1408
01:07:03.420 --> 01:07:04.739
Patternoster?

1409
01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:05.280
Thank you.

1410
01:07:05.340 --> 01:07:06.239
I'm just going to give up.

1411
01:07:06.300 --> 01:07:08.579
You've got them as a family.

1412
01:07:08.639 --> 01:07:12.239
You've got, you know, obviously Amy Rory and River, like Stephen

1413
01:07:12.239 --> 01:07:17.039
is very much, I think, in line with original who, which makes it

1414
01:07:17.039 --> 01:07:18.599
very different to the real world.

1415
01:07:18.719 --> 01:07:20.880
The Dr. Nardol, Bill, and Bill's mother.

1416
01:07:20.940 --> 01:07:24.239
Exactly. family feel to it.

1417
01:07:24.300 --> 01:07:26.219
Yes, they're like the constructed family.

1418
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:27.840
But yeah, Russell C.

1419
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.300
Davis, he loves his soaps and it's constructed around that.

1420
01:07:30.300 --> 01:07:32.099
And that's probably one of the reasons why I don't like his Europe

1421
01:07:32.099 --> 01:07:34.380
very much because soaps have absolutely no interest for me.

1422
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:36.840
That's why I was watching Doctor Who are not Neighbours, you know

1423
01:07:36.840 --> 01:07:37.199
what I mean?

1424
01:07:37.260 --> 01:07:40.320
Whereas Moffat, of course, is the sitcom situation where you got

1425
01:07:40.320 --> 01:07:42.000
these disparate groups of people who are sort of thrown together

1426
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:44.280
in situations and you say funny lines.

1427
01:07:44.340 --> 01:07:46.380
So it's that dichotomy as well.

1428
01:07:46.380 --> 01:07:50.460
Yeah, you've got your unit family with Peter's favourite actress

1429
01:07:50.460 --> 01:07:51.840
Jennifer Osgood.

1430
01:07:51.900 --> 01:07:55.739
And yeah, it's just it just gives a different feel.

1431
01:07:55.800 --> 01:07:58.739
Like it's not as real worldly.

1432
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:02.039
I don't know, connected to the real world and we talk about the

1433
01:08:02.039 --> 01:08:03.780
audience that are tapering off and that sort of thing.

1434
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:07.079
I think, though, there is a way in which Moffat is absolutely

1435
01:08:07.079 --> 01:08:11.820
completely different from the classics series, and he has, in

1436
01:08:11.820 --> 01:08:16.380
unguarded moments, expressed various degrees of contempt for the

1437
01:08:16.380 --> 01:08:17.699
classic series, in fact.

1438
01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:20.279
And it...

1439
01:08:20.340 --> 01:08:20.699
No.

1440
01:08:20.760 --> 01:08:26.760
But it is that his regular characters are the focus in a way

1441
01:08:26.760 --> 01:08:31.560
that's nearly never true in the classic series until perhaps Ace

1442
01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:37.199
where the characters perform plot functions, essentially, in

1443
01:08:37.199 --> 01:08:38.399
classic who?

1444
01:08:38.460 --> 01:08:42.779
And even when people are leaving, the story isn't about how

1445
01:08:42.779 --> 01:08:45.180
they've grown or anything about them as a person.

1446
01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:47.039
Oh, where the hell is Croydon?

1447
01:08:48.539 --> 01:08:52.140
Except in the very best iterations, like say Joe Grant.

1448
01:08:52.199 --> 01:08:53.100
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1449
01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:54.960
I think Joe's the close.

1450
01:08:55.020 --> 01:08:57.539
I was thinking that to Katie's portrayal as well.

1451
01:08:57.600 --> 01:08:59.760
It's just the closest to the modern era.

1452
01:08:59.819 --> 01:09:02.579
Maybe that's why she's just so much, I don't know.

1453
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:05.880
I mean, I'm a big, big finish, big, big, big, big finish

1454
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:06.720
subscriber.

1455
01:09:06.779 --> 01:09:08.220
Katie's in everything.

1456
01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:13.319
I do often feel, though, that all the modern Shea runners, um, both

1457
01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:16.979
Moffat and particularly Moffat and ITD, I think there is a certain

1458
01:09:16.979 --> 01:09:19.619
shame there about the original series.

1459
01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:23.100
They still remember being teased for liking it at school because

1460
01:09:23.100 --> 01:09:25.199
it's a bit silly, it's a bit stupid.

1461
01:09:25.319 --> 01:09:30.359
And I think they try and deal with that by, by unfortunately

1462
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:33.000
sometimes leaning and Moffatt is guilty of this too, but Russell

1463
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:36.180
particularly leaning into the silliness and the stupidity, because

1464
01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:38.159
the 1st time round, it was often an accident.

1465
01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:40.319
And the 2nd time round, though, they're doing it deliberately

1466
01:09:40.319 --> 01:09:42.479
which I think is like, well, why would you actually deliberately

1467
01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:42.840
want to do that?

1468
01:09:42.899 --> 01:09:45.840
Yeah, you kind of they're going, no, don't react against that. was

1469
01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:46.020
great.

1470
01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:46.920
Yes, exactly.

1471
01:09:46.979 --> 01:09:50.340
Yeah, I mean, you know, they're people who've written TV before

1472
01:09:50.340 --> 01:09:52.560
they came to ride.

1473
01:09:52.619 --> 01:09:56.520
And so they know what real TV has to be like.

1474
01:09:56.579 --> 01:10:00.659
And it can't be like the classic series in certain ways.

1475
01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:03.899
Well, Jane Baker had written lots of real TV before they came

1476
01:10:03.899 --> 01:10:04.859
to...

1477
01:10:04.920 --> 01:10:05.340
Great.

1478
01:10:05.399 --> 01:10:06.239
Shut up.

1479
01:10:06.300 --> 01:10:08.100
They are, in fact, one day.

1480
01:10:08.220 --> 01:10:08.939
If you say so.

1481
01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:11.460
Yeah, if we want the other example.

1482
01:10:11.520 --> 01:10:14.640
It's Bob Baker and Dave Martin had not written much real TV before

1483
01:10:14.640 --> 01:10:16.979
the claws of Axos. on Doctor Who either.

1484
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:19.199
Anyway.

1485
01:10:19.260 --> 01:10:20.279
I don't know.

1486
01:10:20.279 --> 01:10:21.960
I don't know what the comparison is there.

1487
01:10:22.020 --> 01:10:25.319
Something I find so interesting about the Moffeteera is the

1488
01:10:25.319 --> 01:10:26.100
finales.

1489
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:30.899
With the exception of Darkwater Death in Heaven, they're all about

1490
01:10:30.899 --> 01:10:33.600
a small group of people, you know?

1491
01:10:33.659 --> 01:10:37.439
And yes, you might have a flood of cybermen, but really the story

1492
01:10:37.439 --> 01:10:40.020
is about Bill, Missy, and the master, you know?

1493
01:10:40.079 --> 01:10:44.279
And I remember having that thought when I was watching The Big

1494
01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:45.420
Bang for the 1st time.

1495
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:48.840
And the word that popped into my head was this is so insular

1496
01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:51.720
compared to what we got under Russell T. Davies.

1497
01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:55.439
And I didn't necessarily mean that in a pejorative sense, but it

1498
01:10:55.439 --> 01:10:56.340
was inward looking.

1499
01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:59.220
It comes back to what you were saying about sort of how he

1500
01:10:59.220 --> 01:11:00.239
focusses on character.

1501
01:11:00.300 --> 01:11:04.739
And for me, that leads to what I think is a big flawed part of his

1502
01:11:04.739 --> 01:11:07.619
era, which is actually something Simon loves.

1503
01:11:07.680 --> 01:11:13.079
I think the arc of series 6 for me is the Nadir of the new

1504
01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:13.979
series.

1505
01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:15.239
I think it's too dark.

1506
01:11:15.300 --> 01:11:16.260
I think it's too cruel.

1507
01:11:16.319 --> 01:11:20.880
But at the same time, I cannot fault the performances, it gives us

1508
01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:23.279
I cannot fault the character work it does.

1509
01:11:23.340 --> 01:11:26.880
I think then the fact that we kind of sweep it under the rug a bit

1510
01:11:26.880 --> 01:11:29.159
except for a few lines in asylum of the Daleks is a bit of a

1511
01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:29.460
mistake.

1512
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:31.920
But at the same time, I'm saying, I don't want that, but I also

1513
01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:34.140
don't want you not to acknowledge that, Mr. Boffett.

1514
01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:35.100
He can't win, you know.

1515
01:11:35.159 --> 01:11:39.659
So he definitely does react to the feedback he gets to the point

1516
01:11:39.659 --> 01:11:43.380
that he quit social media, which I think is a thing Russell didn't

1517
01:11:43.380 --> 01:11:43.859
have to deal with.

1518
01:11:43.920 --> 01:11:44.880
There was no Twitter.

1519
01:11:46.140 --> 01:11:49.500
I think 2012, 2000, 2000, anyway, yes.

1520
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:49.979
Yeah.

1521
01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:53.340
And, you know, it really takes off in 2019, 2010 when he's on his

1522
01:11:53.340 --> 01:11:56.760
way out, whereas Moffat was on there as a public face and just

1523
01:11:56.760 --> 01:12:01.260
copying a lot of harsh criticism, you know, and I'll be the 1st to

1524
01:12:01.260 --> 01:12:04.260
put my hand up and say, I'm critical of stuff he does in series 6

1525
01:12:04.260 --> 01:12:05.880
but I wouldn't go on social media and at him.

1526
01:12:06.060 --> 01:12:08.640
Stephen Moffatt, I don't like what you're doing.

1527
01:12:08.699 --> 01:12:11.579
And he does learn and he includes that.

1528
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:14.340
I say it's a response to fans, but maybe it's just a response to

1529
01:12:14.340 --> 01:12:14.699
himself.

1530
01:12:14.760 --> 01:12:17.399
Maybe he's looking at his own work and saying, oh, actually, I

1531
01:12:17.399 --> 01:12:18.119
could do that better.

1532
01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:20.399
He seems to be very self-aware.

1533
01:12:20.460 --> 01:12:22.020
Or maybe he's just saying, oh, I did that last time and it's just

1534
01:12:22.020 --> 01:12:22.619
something different this time.

1535
01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:23.520
Yeah, absolutely.

1536
01:12:23.579 --> 01:12:26.100
I mean, but those season finales that he does. are just streets

1537
01:12:26.100 --> 01:12:28.260
ahead of the stuff that we get from the previous era.

1538
01:12:28.319 --> 01:12:29.760
I don't feel, yeah.

1539
01:12:29.819 --> 01:12:30.960
Yeah, I'm not sure about that.

1540
01:12:31.020 --> 01:12:34.199
And I had the same feeling about the Big Bang, which I think is

1541
01:12:34.199 --> 01:12:36.239
really great now.

1542
01:12:36.420 --> 01:12:40.680
But I remember being shocked that it's just 5 people walking

1543
01:12:40.680 --> 01:12:43.680
around a museum. sort of inverts things, doesn't it?

1544
01:12:43.739 --> 01:12:45.779
has like the big season finale in the 1st episode.

1545
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:47.279
Yes, yes, yeah.

1546
01:12:47.340 --> 01:12:52.079
Whereas one of the things that RTD does, which was just a peculiar

1547
01:12:52.079 --> 01:12:57.659
pleasure, and which mirrored the profile of the show itself, that

1548
01:12:57.659 --> 01:13:03.659
your alien invasions didn't happen in a priory or...

1549
01:13:03.720 --> 01:13:04.800
Yes, exactly.

1550
01:13:04.800 --> 01:13:05.640
Exactly.

1551
01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:06.779
But far better.

1552
01:13:06.840 --> 01:13:10.199
But when they happen on the world stage, because we can finally do

1553
01:13:10.199 --> 01:13:10.619
that.

1554
01:13:10.739 --> 01:13:11.939
We can do cable news.

1555
01:13:12.000 --> 01:13:15.479
It's not just cable news, but also, because it was always a thing

1556
01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:17.039
that you could have done.

1557
01:13:17.100 --> 01:13:21.600
I mean, all of London gets evacuated in invasion of the

1558
01:13:21.600 --> 01:13:22.439
dinosaurs.

1559
01:13:22.500 --> 01:13:26.220
Like you could choose to do that, but most of the time you don't

1560
01:13:26.220 --> 01:13:29.399
and where he says, all right, we're going to have a big spectacle

1561
01:13:29.399 --> 01:13:33.000
of the kind that you have never seen on TV before and you've never

1562
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:34.319
seen in Doctor Who before.

1563
01:13:34.380 --> 01:13:38.640
It was the one reason why I think that even though aliens of

1564
01:13:38.640 --> 01:13:40.859
London and World War 3 doesn't work completely.

1565
01:13:40.920 --> 01:13:44.159
I love it so much because it's going somewhere so new.

1566
01:13:44.220 --> 01:13:45.720
And so those finale.

1567
01:13:45.779 --> 01:13:49.680
So all those big, dumb, blaring, wonderful things that all ended

1568
01:13:49.680 --> 01:13:52.619
in a little sort of personal tragedy of one kind or another

1569
01:13:52.619 --> 01:13:56.039
because we're changing cast at the end of each season.

1570
01:13:56.100 --> 01:13:59.880
And so things like, for instance, death in heaven, I don't think

1571
01:13:59.880 --> 01:14:03.720
really works. because it is too much like that.

1572
01:14:03.779 --> 01:14:07.319
And because what we're talking about, the character stuff that

1573
01:14:07.319 --> 01:14:10.739
we're talking about is weird and not very interesting.

1574
01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:14.220
Whereas I think dark water is surpassingly brilliant.

1575
01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:15.659
So I don't know.

1576
01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:22.199
I think that that is a flaw that the finales can be great in all

1577
01:14:22.199 --> 01:14:26.220
sorts of ways, but I do miss the the scale.

1578
01:14:26.340 --> 01:14:27.659
I remember missing London.

1579
01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.619
One of the great places of day of the doctor was London is back

1580
01:14:31.619 --> 01:14:32.880
and that's pretty great.

1581
01:14:32.939 --> 01:14:38.880
I will say Hellbent still gives me this whole tension because I

1582
01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:41.340
freaking love a galafray story.

1583
01:14:41.399 --> 01:14:43.079
Like, except for fucking Infinity.

1584
01:14:43.619 --> 01:14:48.479
But actually. 1st 5 minutes of mysterious planet.

1585
01:14:48.960 --> 01:14:52.619
Hey, trials are 7 out of 10 for me, isn't it?

1586
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:54.479
But here's the thing.

1587
01:14:54.539 --> 01:14:58.680
I remember watching Hellbent, and I think it's the bit where the

1588
01:14:58.680 --> 01:15:00.539
doctor shoots the general.

1589
01:15:00.600 --> 01:15:05.579
And I just found myself suddenly thinking, what is someone who

1590
01:15:05.579 --> 01:15:09.239
loved Doctor Who when Catherine Tate was in it making of this, but

1591
01:15:09.239 --> 01:15:12.060
you know, doesn't own the discontinuity guide?

1592
01:15:12.119 --> 01:15:13.800
And then I thought, I don't care.

1593
01:15:13.859 --> 01:15:15.119
I love this stuff.

1594
01:15:15.180 --> 01:15:16.500
Great outcome.

1595
01:15:19.560 --> 01:15:22.859
But, you know, that Moffat gives me that kind of tension in that

1596
01:15:22.859 --> 01:15:28.079
he's not making it for the soap crowd, as you might say, he's

1597
01:15:28.079 --> 01:15:32.039
still doing his best to make it accessible for people who don't

1598
01:15:32.039 --> 01:15:34.439
consider themselves a science fiction fan or a Doctor Who fan.

1599
01:15:34.500 --> 01:15:35.579
It still has to be accessible to them.

1600
01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:38.579
But at the same time, he can't just do what Russell T Davies did.

1601
01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:41.579
So he has to do more varied stuff.

1602
01:15:41.640 --> 01:15:45.239
That's what so much talk about the moth era of do the arcs work, do

1603
01:15:45.239 --> 01:15:45.600
they not?

1604
01:15:45.659 --> 01:15:48.000
It just comes down to what I was saying earlier about episode

1605
01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:48.720
quality.

1606
01:15:48.779 --> 01:15:53.939
Series 6 and series 9 are viewed as lesser entries because I don't

1607
01:15:53.939 --> 01:15:57.180
think the episode quality is there to support the arc.

1608
01:15:57.239 --> 01:16:01.199
So in series 6, you think it's been nasty about Amy's because not

1609
01:16:01.199 --> 01:16:01.680
handled very well.

1610
01:16:01.680 --> 01:16:04.319
And let's kill Hitler is a problematic episode.

1611
01:16:04.380 --> 01:16:07.439
If that was a good episode that delivered on what I was trying to

1612
01:16:07.439 --> 01:16:10.079
do, we'd think of the arc much more positively.

1613
01:16:10.140 --> 01:16:11.399
Very true.

1614
01:16:11.460 --> 01:16:15.060
It's just that whole run of episodes in series 6 where you wish

1615
01:16:15.060 --> 01:16:17.340
someone would turn the goddamn lights on.

1616
01:16:17.939 --> 01:16:20.100
That's true.

1617
01:16:20.159 --> 01:16:24.000
What do you think of Stephen's handling of classic series

1618
01:16:24.000 --> 01:16:24.659
monsters?

1619
01:16:24.720 --> 01:16:28.380
The Daleks, the Cybermen, the Ice Warriors, the Santara.

1620
01:16:28.439 --> 01:16:31.920
I think that he's not interested in doing Dalek stories or Ice

1621
01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:33.600
Warrior stories or anything like that.

1622
01:16:33.659 --> 01:16:38.399
And I think that's good because we've got a lot of them.

1623
01:16:38.460 --> 01:16:41.460
And so he uses them in sort of different ways.

1624
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:46.260
I thought that he had probably rendered the Santarins unuseable

1625
01:16:46.260 --> 01:16:49.140
after Strax.

1626
01:16:49.199 --> 01:16:53.640
But I'm pleased to be proved wrong because I think war of the

1627
01:16:53.640 --> 01:16:58.560
Sontarans is probably the best episode of that season.

1628
01:16:58.619 --> 01:17:03.600
And certainly the Santarians work on some functional level still

1629
01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:04.260
in it.

1630
01:17:04.319 --> 01:17:05.939
So I don't know.

1631
01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:09.060
He isn't interested in Daleks at all, is he really?

1632
01:17:09.119 --> 01:17:10.739
No, I agree with you.

1633
01:17:10.800 --> 01:17:13.500
Like, you know, Davros is a character, but not the Daleks

1634
01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:16.800
secondary and he tends to use them as one of things or the human

1635
01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:18.779
dialect in a sort of different way.

1636
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:22.199
He's certainly much more interested in the cyberman as...

1637
01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:25.680
And the Mavellans. a good thing. absolutely.

1638
01:17:25.739 --> 01:17:27.000
Alpha Centauri.

1639
01:17:27.060 --> 01:17:29.399
I think he's more interested in telling a story.

1640
01:17:29.460 --> 01:17:32.819
And if those aliens or those monsters fit into that story.

1641
01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:33.539
Great.

1642
01:17:33.600 --> 01:17:34.619
We can make that work.

1643
01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:38.340
But it's not, yeah, he's just not just doing a Dalek story for the

1644
01:17:38.340 --> 01:17:39.539
sake of doing a Dalek story.

1645
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:42.840
He's doing it because he's interested in what he can do with a

1646
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:43.920
character like Davros.

1647
01:17:43.979 --> 01:17:48.300
Do you know who I'm really surprised Mothat didn't do a sequel

1648
01:17:48.300 --> 01:17:48.600
for?

1649
01:17:48.659 --> 01:17:49.800
The Mara.

1650
01:17:49.859 --> 01:17:51.060
Yeah.

1651
01:17:51.060 --> 01:17:51.359
Yeah.

1652
01:17:51.420 --> 01:17:53.039
I think so much.

1653
01:17:53.100 --> 01:17:55.800
I think the Murr is perfect as it is.

1654
01:17:55.859 --> 01:17:57.239
I don't think it needs anything.

1655
01:17:57.300 --> 01:17:59.340
And in fact, I was...

1656
01:17:59.399 --> 01:18:04.319
I was slightly annoyed by the reference to the Mara in the season

1657
01:18:04.319 --> 01:18:08.039
one finale this year because I think it should probably have just

1658
01:18:08.039 --> 01:18:08.819
been left alone.

1659
01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:17.579
Stephen's known as Mr. Christmas.

1660
01:18:17.640 --> 01:18:19.199
He's coming back for Christmas this year.

1661
01:18:19.260 --> 01:18:21.300
Who calls him Mr. Christmas?

1662
01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:22.800
Me, I thought it was...

1663
01:18:22.800 --> 01:18:24.600
Sorry, Nathan calls in.

1664
01:18:24.779 --> 01:18:27.600
Thank you for that correction, Peter.

1665
01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:32.399
As a whole, what do you think of his contribution to the Christmas

1666
01:18:32.399 --> 01:18:33.960
specials of which there are many.

1667
01:18:34.020 --> 01:18:36.060
Does he do 10 or 11?

1668
01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:37.859
How many did he do Christmas Carol?

1669
01:18:37.920 --> 01:18:40.319
The Doctor Widow in the wardrobe, the snowman?

1670
01:18:40.380 --> 01:18:41.159
The doctor?

1671
01:18:41.279 --> 01:18:42.779
Last Christmas.

1672
01:18:42.840 --> 01:18:43.859
Husbands of River Song.

1673
01:18:43.920 --> 01:18:45.840
The Return of Dr. Mysterio Twice Upon a Time.

1674
01:18:45.899 --> 01:18:46.260
There you go.

1675
01:18:46.380 --> 01:18:49.500
Well, I mean, obviously there are some of the absolute most

1676
01:18:49.500 --> 01:18:52.020
spectacular Christmas specials in there, like a Christmas carol

1677
01:18:52.020 --> 01:18:54.300
and I actually probably think twice upon a time now, frankly.

1678
01:18:54.779 --> 01:18:55.319
Time of the doctor.

1679
01:18:55.380 --> 01:18:57.180
Last Christmas, it was beautiful.

1680
01:18:57.239 --> 01:18:58.380
Last Christmas, I think is really good.

1681
01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:00.359
Dr. Woodrow in the wardrobe.

1682
01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:04.439
On the other end of the spectrum for me, and the husbands of River

1683
01:19:04.439 --> 01:19:07.979
song is actually, I thought it was just bad rather than terrible

1684
01:19:07.979 --> 01:19:11.279
when I watched it this time round. that an improvement?

1685
01:19:11.340 --> 01:19:12.000
Yes.

1686
01:19:12.060 --> 01:19:15.239
Oh, yes, bad, not dire because it's actually, it's just the 1st

1687
01:19:15.239 --> 01:19:18.779
half because the 2nd half is, is actually beautiful and it's just

1688
01:19:18.779 --> 01:19:20.039
ruined, unfortunately, by the 1st half.

1689
01:19:20.100 --> 01:19:22.979
But I think he actually does a really good job 98% of the time.

1690
01:19:23.039 --> 01:19:24.420
Yeah, yeah.

1691
01:19:24.479 --> 01:19:27.960
I think, you know, the idea that we run out of Christmas things

1692
01:19:27.960 --> 01:19:31.140
are we should do Christmas because it's stupid that every 13th

1693
01:19:31.140 --> 01:19:33.659
episode of Doctor Who is set at Christmas.

1694
01:19:33.840 --> 01:19:34.619
It snows at the end.

1695
01:19:34.680 --> 01:19:35.939
Like, that's ridiculous.

1696
01:19:36.060 --> 01:19:37.380
No, that's my point.

1697
01:19:37.439 --> 01:19:39.300
Yeah, that's a ridiculous point.

1698
01:19:39.359 --> 01:19:40.500
You should wake up to yourself.

1699
01:19:41.520 --> 01:19:44.520
Sometimes not even every 8th episode, can I say?

1700
01:19:44.579 --> 01:19:49.260
I mean, like in November, there's Christmas carols in Meyer.

1701
01:19:49.319 --> 01:19:51.840
That's I should wake up to a time.

1702
01:19:52.920 --> 01:19:54.779
You think that's bad.

1703
01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:58.380
When I went to David Jones back in my early 20s, one Christmas, we

1704
01:19:58.380 --> 01:20:00.659
put the decorations out at the end of August.

1705
01:20:00.720 --> 01:20:02.039
Yes.

1706
01:20:02.100 --> 01:20:03.000
Yes.

1707
01:20:03.180 --> 01:20:04.800
Did they sell?

1708
01:20:04.859 --> 01:20:06.899
So I think Christmas is super important.

1709
01:20:06.960 --> 01:20:09.720
It's absolutely a thing that Doctor Who should be known for.

1710
01:20:09.779 --> 01:20:13.680
And, you know, Moffat does that thing where he equates Santa and

1711
01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:18.359
the doctor, they both come at Christmas and they both bring sort

1712
01:20:18.359 --> 01:20:21.539
of presents and things and make people's lives better.

1713
01:20:21.600 --> 01:20:26.460
I think the Christmas special in Russell Theatre was of sort of

1714
01:20:26.460 --> 01:20:28.319
variable quality.

1715
01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:33.119
But I think that a Christmas carol, and I think I said this at the

1716
01:20:33.119 --> 01:20:39.300
time, as a pretty fair claim to being the best Doctor Who story at

1717
01:20:39.300 --> 01:20:44.399
that point, like, and it depends on kind of how I'm feeling on a

1718
01:20:44.399 --> 01:20:47.579
particular day, but I think that that is an extraordinary and

1719
01:20:47.579 --> 01:20:48.600
perfect thing, that episode.

1720
01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:51.779
There's no doubt that the Christmas episodes of the modern era are

1721
01:20:51.779 --> 01:20:52.800
some of the best.

1722
01:20:52.920 --> 01:20:55.439
But there's also some of the worst.

1723
01:20:55.439 --> 01:20:58.979
And I think it's just the kind of story that it dictates Doctor

1724
01:20:58.979 --> 01:21:01.500
Who has to tell on Christmas Day.

1725
01:21:01.560 --> 01:21:02.819
I don't have that much time for.

1726
01:21:02.880 --> 01:21:06.420
It's like, can't we have a more Doctor Who episode for every 13th

1727
01:21:06.420 --> 01:21:06.720
episode?

1728
01:21:06.779 --> 01:21:09.899
I agree with that the point you're making there, Peter, which is

1729
01:21:09.899 --> 01:21:13.560
why I really enjoy twice upon a time because it just happens to

1730
01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:15.899
happen at Christmas for part of it.

1731
01:21:15.960 --> 01:21:16.680
The snowmen.

1732
01:21:16.800 --> 01:21:18.300
Okay, we've got Victorian London.

1733
01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:19.560
It's just a backdrop.

1734
01:21:19.619 --> 01:21:20.760
It's not about Christmas.

1735
01:21:20.819 --> 01:21:23.039
It's Christmas Eve, but it's not about Christmas.

1736
01:21:23.100 --> 01:21:23.939
That's right.

1737
01:21:24.000 --> 01:21:26.939
Comparing them to the Russell Christmas specials.

1738
01:21:27.060 --> 01:21:30.960
The Russell Christmas specials are everyday Doctor Who stories

1739
01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:32.520
with Christmas trimmings.

1740
01:21:32.579 --> 01:21:36.300
And also it's kind of like Russell's Christmas specials go, giant

1741
01:21:36.300 --> 01:21:37.199
thing is above London.

1742
01:21:37.260 --> 01:21:38.819
Giant thing is below London.

1743
01:21:38.939 --> 01:21:41.579
Giant thing is gonna crash into London.

1744
01:21:41.640 --> 01:21:45.479
Um, giant Victorian, London.

1745
01:21:45.539 --> 01:21:47.039
Victoria, London.

1746
01:21:47.100 --> 01:21:49.140
John Sim with a jetpack.

1747
01:21:50.159 --> 01:21:53.760
Whereas Stephen Moffat for most of his Christmas specials really

1748
01:21:53.760 --> 01:21:55.560
goes, okay, what's Christmas about?

1749
01:21:55.619 --> 01:21:58.319
Like, I'm going to retell a Christmas carol.

1750
01:21:58.380 --> 01:22:05.100
I'm going to have a family who aren't going to find out about a

1751
01:22:05.100 --> 01:22:08.100
loss because it's Christmas and you can't do that on Christmas.

1752
01:22:08.159 --> 01:22:11.880
I'm going to have the doctor stay on a planet called Christmas.

1753
01:22:12.239 --> 01:22:16.619
It's it's kind of interesting that when you look at the 2

1754
01:22:16.619 --> 01:22:18.420
showrunners Christmas specials together.

1755
01:22:18.479 --> 01:22:21.779
Russell's Christmas specials, indeed, with the Runaway Bride

1756
01:22:21.779 --> 01:22:24.060
started as an episode just within the season.

1757
01:22:24.479 --> 01:22:27.000
But it gets moved to Christmas.

1758
01:22:27.060 --> 01:22:29.880
It gets the casting of Catherine Tate to give it the Christmas

1759
01:22:29.880 --> 01:22:33.359
boost, but there's nothing especially Christmassy about those

1760
01:22:33.359 --> 01:22:36.300
stories, whereas most of Moffatt's Christmas specials don't work

1761
01:22:36.300 --> 01:22:37.739
if they're not a Christmas special.

1762
01:22:37.859 --> 01:22:43.920
And I know Dr. Widow and the Wardrobe and Husbands of River Song

1763
01:22:43.920 --> 01:22:44.819
get a lot of Flack.

1764
01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:47.159
They're actually my favourite Moffat Christmas specials because I

1765
01:22:47.159 --> 01:22:48.060
am a soppy git.

1766
01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:53.520
I love husband's forever song for the same reason as you, Brandon.

1767
01:22:53.579 --> 01:22:59.460
And I actually really enjoy, although it's not the best, the line

1768
01:22:59.460 --> 01:23:00.479
between the wardrobe.

1769
01:23:00.539 --> 01:23:00.840
Sorry.

1770
01:23:00.899 --> 01:23:04.439
It's just, I can never get the name of the story right.

1771
01:23:04.500 --> 01:23:06.239
The Doctor, the Widow, and the War.

1772
01:23:06.300 --> 01:23:08.340
Think of the name of the show you're watching.

1773
01:23:09.119 --> 01:23:10.739
Take it from there.

1774
01:23:10.800 --> 01:23:17.640
Flaws aside, I love that story because it's about a family and

1775
01:23:17.640 --> 01:23:21.479
it's about a mother trying to protect her children and it's

1776
01:23:21.479 --> 01:23:26.399
there's some really something really emotionally valid there, I

1777
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:26.760
guess.

1778
01:23:27.479 --> 01:23:30.479
And then it and then it doesn't end with the tragedy.

1779
01:23:30.539 --> 01:23:34.500
Because it's Doctor Who, because, you know, because it's

1780
01:23:34.500 --> 01:23:34.800
Christmas.

1781
01:23:34.859 --> 01:23:38.460
Yeah, because it's Christmas, he manages to save, save their

1782
01:23:38.460 --> 01:23:38.760
father.

1783
01:23:38.880 --> 01:23:41.460
Are you sure you don't like it just because it's got the mum from

1784
01:23:41.460 --> 01:23:42.119
outnumbered in it?

1785
01:23:42.180 --> 01:23:43.439
I never watched Outnumbered.

1786
01:23:43.500 --> 01:23:43.800
Okay.

1787
01:23:43.859 --> 01:23:44.819
It's got Bill Bailey.

1788
01:23:53.880 --> 01:23:58.800
So what are your final thoughts on the Stephen Moffat era of the

1789
01:23:58.800 --> 01:23:58.979
show?

1790
01:23:59.039 --> 01:24:00.300
We were lucky to have him.

1791
01:24:00.359 --> 01:24:01.260
Yeah.

1792
01:24:01.319 --> 01:24:04.199
Yeah, and I think we were lucky to have him for quite so long.

1793
01:24:04.260 --> 01:24:10.380
I love the RTD era more, um, and I think, you know, it's got

1794
01:24:10.380 --> 01:24:15.899
people like Camille Kajuri and, you know, the companions, the moms

1795
01:24:15.899 --> 01:24:20.159
and just that sheer joy at having the show back and having it so

1796
01:24:20.159 --> 01:24:24.600
incredibly well documented, having Julie and Russell and all of

1797
01:24:24.600 --> 01:24:27.600
those people, there was something just really quite magical about

1798
01:24:27.600 --> 01:24:28.859
that era.

1799
01:24:28.920 --> 01:24:33.779
And the mafia is sort of sprawling and rhubarbative and complex.

1800
01:24:33.840 --> 01:24:37.500
But it's really amazingly great.

1801
01:24:37.560 --> 01:24:42.659
And as I said before, it has, I think, the 2 best doctors in the

1802
01:24:42.659 --> 01:24:43.439
history of the show.

1803
01:24:43.500 --> 01:24:46.800
So I am a massive fan of that as well.

1804
01:24:46.800 --> 01:24:51.000
And perhaps even more after this leg of our flight.

1805
01:24:51.060 --> 01:24:52.979
And again, it goes back to structure.

1806
01:24:53.039 --> 01:24:56.220
They were saying earlier, he starts and ends with the best.

1807
01:24:56.340 --> 01:25:01.920
I think he gets so much more right than I would hesitate to even

1808
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:02.699
use the word wrong.

1809
01:25:02.760 --> 01:25:08.939
I think there are some missteps which he then recalculates, and I

1810
01:25:08.939 --> 01:25:13.260
think in that he's a far more experimental writer than Russell, but

1811
01:25:13.260 --> 01:25:14.640
you know, he's also got to follow Russell.

1812
01:25:14.699 --> 01:25:16.680
Do something different and then do something different from

1813
01:25:16.680 --> 01:25:17.699
himself every year.

1814
01:25:18.300 --> 01:25:22.560
Look, I mean, it's, I think, I think it's a great ear, one of the

1815
01:25:22.560 --> 01:25:23.760
best eras of shows ever had.

1816
01:25:23.819 --> 01:25:25.859
I think both of them, you know, even though I prefer the Matt

1817
01:25:25.859 --> 01:25:27.000
Smith, half of his era.

1818
01:25:27.060 --> 01:25:28.979
I still think most of the Capaldi stuff is good.

1819
01:25:28.979 --> 01:25:32.100
And I think we are lucky to have had him and had him so long

1820
01:25:32.100 --> 01:25:35.220
despite me suggesting that maybe if he'd been there a bit less, may

1821
01:25:35.220 --> 01:25:36.960
have all come together better.

1822
01:25:37.020 --> 01:25:41.220
But I think the thing that we're missing is a doctor, to be a

1823
01:25:41.220 --> 01:25:45.000
single doctor, to be covered by 2 different showrunners, or a, you

1824
01:25:45.000 --> 01:25:47.819
know, a bit more of that, bit more of that variety, to see how a

1825
01:25:47.819 --> 01:25:49.619
doctor can be, you know, wouldn't it have been interesting if

1826
01:25:49.619 --> 01:25:51.779
Chippin had picked up and Capaldi's still a doctor?

1827
01:25:51.840 --> 01:25:54.359
But yeah, it's great.

1828
01:25:54.420 --> 01:25:57.239
And I think we'll know what we've lost very soon.

1829
01:25:57.479 --> 01:26:03.539
I need to agree with Simon and that looking at this point now, just

1830
01:26:03.539 --> 01:26:06.779
the range, emotions and colour, and of course it wasn't all

1831
01:26:06.779 --> 01:26:07.260
successful.

1832
01:26:07.319 --> 01:26:10.260
And it was quite jarring at the time.

1833
01:26:10.319 --> 01:26:14.100
I'm not just talking about the beats that we've named on FTE in

1834
01:26:14.100 --> 01:26:20.340
the past, but that actually works when you see what they all

1835
01:26:20.340 --> 01:26:22.619
managed to bring together, Rachel Talloway.

1836
01:26:22.680 --> 01:26:26.100
I mean, honestly, and the extraordinary work she's done.

1837
01:26:26.159 --> 01:26:31.260
But honestly, Capaldi saved the end of this period of Doctor Who

1838
01:26:31.260 --> 01:26:36.000
simply by holding that moment in the camera and just being so

1839
01:26:36.000 --> 01:26:37.140
expert at what he does.

1840
01:26:37.619 --> 01:26:44.039
I mean, I prefer Russell's 1st year of the show as a whole. for

1841
01:26:44.039 --> 01:26:48.300
many of the same reasons as Nathan, but Doctor Who has never been

1842
01:26:48.300 --> 01:26:55.859
more experimental or more varied than it is in Moffatt's era.

1843
01:26:55.920 --> 01:26:59.340
And I think that that is something glorious.

1844
01:26:59.399 --> 01:27:01.439
And I'm so glad we had it.

1845
01:27:01.500 --> 01:27:05.399
I've got nothing more, except to say, now, what are your thoughts

1846
01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:05.939
on class?

1847
01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:33.180
Well, that's all the time we have for now.

1848
01:27:33.239 --> 01:27:37.140
We'll be back in a few years' time to watch a new Dr. Fall Out of

1849
01:27:37.140 --> 01:27:41.579
the Sky and change our world forever in The Woman Who Fell to

1850
01:27:41.579 --> 01:27:41.819
Earth.

1851
01:27:42.300 --> 01:27:46.380
In the meantime, we'll be back in just a few months with a new

1852
01:27:46.380 --> 01:27:50.640
season of 500 year diary called The Second Coming, in which we

1853
01:27:50.640 --> 01:27:54.180
discuss all of the doctor's most terrifying adversaries in their

1854
01:27:54.180 --> 01:27:58.619
2nd appearance in the show, and we'll also be back to deliver our

1855
01:27:58.619 --> 01:28:04.079
ill considered hot takes on season 2 of the 2nd RTD era in the 2nd

1856
01:28:04.079 --> 01:28:05.880
great and bountiful Human Empire.

1857
01:28:06.180 --> 01:28:11.100
Until next time, it's a big universe, but we hope to see you

1858
01:28:11.100 --> 01:28:11.640
again.

1859
01:28:11.699 --> 01:28:14.340
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1860
01:28:14.399 --> 01:28:15.479
Good night.

1861
01:28:15.539 --> 01:28:16.380
See you soon.

1862
01:28:16.439 --> 01:28:17.460
Ta-ta.

1863
01:28:17.520 --> 01:28:18.960
Good night. until next time.

1864
01:28:19.020 --> 01:28:19.920
And good win.

1865
01:28:26.039 --> 01:28:29.939
That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley

1866
01:28:29.939 --> 01:28:32.819
Peter Griffith, Brendan Jones, Simon Moore, James Selwood, and

1867
01:28:32.819 --> 01:28:33.720
Richard Stone.

1868
01:28:33.779 --> 01:28:36.180
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1869
01:28:36.239 --> 01:28:37.140
This episode?

1870
01:28:37.199 --> 01:28:40.439
Well, that's all the time we have for now, was recorded on the 1st

1871
01:28:40.439 --> 01:28:44.640
of December 2024 and released on New Year's Day, 2025.

1872
01:28:45.479 --> 01:28:49.560
If you've ever laughed out loud at us while sitting on the bus or

1873
01:28:49.560 --> 01:28:52.859
like one of our posts or told a friend about us or written a

1874
01:28:52.859 --> 01:28:56.699
review or sent us a message or become our lifelong friend, then

1875
01:28:56.699 --> 01:28:57.659
thank you.

1876
01:28:57.720 --> 01:28:59.579
We love you and we'll see you soon.

1877
01:29:04.319 --> 01:29:06.119
Yeah, perfect.

1878
01:29:06.180 --> 01:29:06.720
Okay.

1879
01:29:06.779 --> 01:29:09.899
We'll do class on, let's do class at some point.

1880
01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:10.859
Let's not.

1881
01:29:10.979 --> 01:29:13.020
I shan't be on that.

1882
01:29:13.020 --> 01:29:14.220
I'm a 500-year diary.

1883
01:29:14.279 --> 01:29:15.720
Yeah, if I haven't read your diary.

1884
01:29:15.720 --> 01:29:18.119
How many episodes is that?

1885
01:29:18.180 --> 01:29:18.779
10?

1886
01:29:18.779 --> 01:29:21.840
eight. eight, eight, eight, eight.

1887
01:29:23.520 --> 01:29:24.840
Okay.

1888
01:29:24.899 --> 01:29:25.319
Okay.

1889
01:29:25.380 --> 01:29:26.039
Oh, thank you.