WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:28:47

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And there we are.

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There's our theme music, which means it's time for another episode

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of Flight Through Entirety.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm Richard. everything to you.

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Yes, well, we don't know what time you're listening.

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And we have actually fully laid out the table this time.

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There will be a photo on the website, but we have all the season 2

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action figures currently released, which consist of a William

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Hartnell and Dalek, and a Dalek, and a Dalek Supreme, and another

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Dalek Supreme, and a source of commander Dalek, and a mechanoid.

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Standing in for Carol Anne Ford.

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And would you like to tell us about the one of our 1st baked good

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for this season of podcasts?

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Oh, yes, so we have the walnut and chocolate question mark pod

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cake made by a friend of the podcast, Robert.

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We haven't actually solicited any cakes from everyone, but I I

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think if anyone wants to email us a cake.

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For, you know, a subsequent recording, that would be good.

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Egan, bacon, oblong, cake flavoured thing.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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That would be perfect.

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From the food machine.

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So thanks very much to Robert for that.

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Maybe that's what we should call the recipe section of the website

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the food machine food machine, actually.

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That's not a bad idea.

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Yeah, so by the time you listen to this, that is what that segment

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of the website is going to be called, it's going to be called the

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food machine.

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So I don't know if people go to the website very much, but we do

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have recipes for every cake and every biscuit and every baked good

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ever.

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Well, not ever.

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But anyone that we've actually sort of consumed prior to, you know

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babbling on about Doctor Who in the podcast.

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Yeah, so I think at the moment there we've got the recipes for the

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macaroons, which we had with the pilot podcast.

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And also the recipe for the pecan slice we had with season one.

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The recipe for this chocolate walnut question mark pod cake.

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I think I got that name right.

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It's probably all be up. to mention at this point that we are all

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dressed as John Pertwee from the Green Death at this very present

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time in pinnies and little headscarves with rolling pins in our

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hands.

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And a big bucket.

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That's right.

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Vera Similitude is number one on this podcast.

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We did we did really underplay the cake, I think, in the last 2

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episodes.

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I'm glad that we're giving this. not going to do that again.

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Thank you, Robert. you, Robert.

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And especially, it's very difficult for you, listener, to

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appreciate this.

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But when you look at the chocolate icing topping.

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That's not icing.

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That's actually chocolate gnash.

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Solid, solid chocolate gnash.

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It's a robo man's helmet of chocolate.

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It's like eating gold.

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It was marvellous.

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That's that's one cake out of the way, but we will have another

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baked good in a later podcast for this season.

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The ever expanding podcast.

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And now for a little bit of housekeeping.

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You may have noticed last season we had 145 minute podcast and won

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one. 5 hour podcast.

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So I've taken the decision that this podcast will be broken up

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into 3 episodes.

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So we'll discuss 3 stories, 3 stories, and 3 stories along with

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the Jenny Laird award for most puzzling creative choice, and our

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recommendations for other extended areas to look into at the end.

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So we start today with the story that was meant to start the

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series and it was a story that just wouldn't die.

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It went through so many different drafts before it finally got on

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the air, and that is Planet of Giants by Louis Marx.

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Do we get a noise?

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Oh, yeah, there it is.

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Planet of Giants was originally meant to be the very 1st Doctor

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Who story.

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Wasn't it the Doctor Who story that Newman had in mind when he

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broached the series?

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Exactly, because Newman's concept was backwards in time, forwards

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in time, and sideways in time, and different states of matter.

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And his 1st thought with different states of matter was changing

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size.

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So you were going to get the 1st episode of our earthly child much

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the same as we saw it with 2 teachers investigating their

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mysterious student, at which point the TARDIS would actually

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shrink them down and they'd have to make their way through cliffs

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laboratory.

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Remember, Cliff?

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That's a really terrible idea.

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Yes it is.

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It's an interesting point maybe at this point to Terese where

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Newman was coming from and maybe why this show had so much

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electricity, static electricity, and mercury and alchemy behind

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it.

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Thank you, David Whittaker, was because Newman had come from a

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northern, um, and very Eastern.

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Mysticism, i.e. the United States and Canadian.

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And he'd grown up on, whereas the Brits had grown up on, say

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Dandair and British weeklies and boys own, that kind of thing.

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He'd grown up with the likes of Hugo Goernsbeck and the pulp

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fiction, the wonder stories, that the thrilling adventures, which

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came out every week and there were myriads of them.

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It was the golden age of science fiction was not actually novel

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and certainly not film.

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It was these pulp magazines.

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So many ideas came from them when we get to the web planet.

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We'll see exactly where that idea comes from.

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It isn't just a boy getting bitten on the in the outback, so to

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speak.

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It's, it's, um, it's these tropes and one of them.

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And you see them also in 50s sci-fi films, but they all come from

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the same route to these pulp fiction.

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The thing of having the hero shrunk down is absolutely a trope in

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so many of those stories along the scantily clad maidens being

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hazard, hazarded in vacuums.

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The thing the thing I find really fascinating about Planet of

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Giants as well because as you say, it's because it's influenced

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from so many other places.

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Yeah.

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But a big influence for me seems to be, especially considering

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Sidney Newman's involvement, is that it feels like a videotape era

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episode of the Avengers, like the main plot with this whole idea

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of...

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Mission highly improbable.

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But this whole idea of technology affording this pesticide, which

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will make a man very rich, but kill people, but that's okay

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because it'll make the man very rich, and that's very much the

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kind of thing that was in the early seasons of the Avengers.

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And there was, there was a whole, It's interesting that we think

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about green politics as being, you know, a relatively new thing or

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you know, when when they were talking about shows like the Green

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Death in the 70s, they thought they were groundbreaking, but

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there's a book if either of you read it called the Silent Spring

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by Rachel Carson.

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I much heard of it.

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I've not read it.

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Okay.

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It was at school.

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I remember reading it in the school library. was one of the things

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that was there, you know, so if it was in our school library would

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have been quite a few of them.

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It was pretty groundbreaking.

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And the way that um, Robert, um, Early.

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The population bomb, which came out in 68.

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But yeah, after this one, but it's another one of those

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groundbreaking dystopian pieces of work by a science writer that

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says, you know, this is happening and you should be really worried

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and pretty much talking about the nitrates and pesticides, which

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ended up feeding the world after Second World War.

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They allowed the agrarian expansion.

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They allowed what we saw to expansion of Europe and the building

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up of Europe after World War II.

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But these chemicals as Carson Wrights in the book side spring, also

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may affect the food chain and the whole biological network of

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Earth.

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So what's happening here is that they arrive and they come across

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all these sort of dead insects and things and it's because, is it

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Forrester?

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Yes, the ironically named Forrester, yes. has invented like DN 6

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or something or DN.

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DN6, not D84.

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D84 comes later.

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But yeah, DN6. which is going to sort of wipe insects out of the

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food chain and kill the bees and all of that sort of thing and

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prevent.

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But not only that is dangerous to larger animals if ingested

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directly, say offgrains because something that's glossed over in

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the televised version, but is present in the reconstructive

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version, which you can find on the DVD, a very good reconstruction

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of the excised material from Ian Levine.

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And I'll explain more about that excise material in a moment.

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The cat is exposed to DN6 and dies.

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Oh, I didn't know that.

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That's terrible.

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And that's when Forrester's assistant, Smithers, realises, hold

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on.

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Smithers.

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Yes.

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It's the 1st cat death joke in Doctor Who and Simpsons reference.

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My God, it really is twisty turning.

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It is, isn't it?

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Very prescient.

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But yeah, so there is that sort of direct danger.

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But I suppose, um, But those of you who don't realise planet of

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Giants, which is a three-part story, was made as a four-part story

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and um, Verity Lambert, the producer, and I think also um, the

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head of serials, wasn't happy with the pace of the four-part and

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edited episodes 3 and 4 down to one episode.

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So for instance, that's something we lose a bit of.

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It's still referred to.

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But I think they thought that with Barbara being sick, the point

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had already been made that larger organisms can be affected.

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Not that she's a larger organism. the larger organism at the time

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but something I find very interesting.

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Now that we know what some of the original concepts of the show

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were about, which we discussed in previous episodes, this one

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interestingly ties in a lot to that concept, which was vetoed by

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Sidney Newman, of the doctor being a radical anti-scientific anti

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progress character.

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As you say, Richard, people were concerned that these new

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pesticides would kill when in fact they allowed more crops to grow

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and more people to have food.

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And so this story could have gone very much in another direction

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because here we see that original concept of the doctor would have

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been going, oh, yes, well, we must destroy this pesticide because

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we can't have pesticides on foods, whereas the doctor in this case

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goes, well, pesticides are a very good idea, but not if they kill

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people.

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You know, so he's not...

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But he's fair enough.

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He's not standing in the way of progress for the sake of standing

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the way of progress.

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He's standing in the way of this form of progress because it's

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like, well, you're thinking on the right lines, but what you're

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doing is going, it's throwing the baby out with the bathwater

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you're going to cause more harm than good, and that's why he

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stands up against it.

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A bit like Keith of Marinus is sort of a defining trait for his

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doctor to be able to step up and go, I appreciate what you're

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trying to do, but this is not the way to do it.

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In fact, this is a, this is another kind of step towards him

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becoming the hero that he actually ends up being because, um, and

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we have to talk about Barbara in this as well.

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Because, you know, they stay and try and put a stop to it despite

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the fact that they're miniaturised, despite the fact there's very

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little that they can actually do.

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And so they do something heroic.

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They not just scampering back to the TARDS to readjust their

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heights or anything like that.

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And to say, Barbara, you know, they know that Barbara is sick and

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dying, but she still says, no, we have to do something.

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And can I just say that I absolutely adore Barbara in this?

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So, I mean, I adore her.

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Yeah, she goes without saying, but but here, like she touches the

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grain and then is pretty quickly told by Ian that that's a bad

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idea and it's horribly poisonous.

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And she's sort of embarrassed about having done it.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And she's starting to feel ill effects and things.

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But partly because she doesn't really want to admit it to herself

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but also just because she's embarrassed, but, you know, about

247
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being so silly.

248
00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:16.860
She just doesn't bring it up.

249
00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.700
And she doesn't let her own sort of sickness and things distract

250
00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:24.059
from their task of putting a stop to the pesticide.

251
00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:27.539
And I just think it's wonderfully human and I think it's a really

252
00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:31.440
you know, it's, it's that instinct that prevents you from going to

253
00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.419
the doctor when something is clearly wrong.

254
00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:36.179
You know, she doesn't quite want to admit it, she doesn't want to

255
00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:37.860
look silly in front of Ian.

256
00:12:37.980 --> 00:12:42.120
I think it's just terribly sweet and terribly real and she's, she's

257
00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:42.960
just tremendous in it.

258
00:12:43.019 --> 00:12:47.940
It's, it's a very heroic trope and especially in the 1960s, a very

259
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:51.059
masculine trope to go.

260
00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:55.200
I am injured, I am hurt, but I am going to cover the wound and not

261
00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:57.840
let anyone see, so it doesn't get in the way of our mission.

262
00:12:57.899 --> 00:13:02.159
Because Barbara gets ill, there's that simultaneous realisation

263
00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:05.580
that, oh, Barbara's going to die if we don't do it, everyone's

264
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:08.399
going to die, if we don't do something, and I think that is

265
00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:14.100
Barbara's conflict in this story of, you know, I need I need to

266
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:17.159
survive, but at the same time, how can I survive if nobody else

267
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:17.700
survives?

268
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:20.700
Everyone else needs to survive and then I can survive because then

269
00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:21.360
we'll know what to do.

270
00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:28.139
Um, But I also rather love that the solution is to blow up a can

271
00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:31.200
of aerosol into the villain's face.

272
00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:34.740
There's a certain borrowers aspect to that, like a

273
00:13:34.740 --> 00:13:35.580
mischievousness.

274
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:39.779
Yeah, it's like, oh, we're tiny, so we can't stop the factory.

275
00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:40.919
Well, we don't need to stop the factory.

276
00:13:40.980 --> 00:13:42.299
You don't need to stop the manufacturer.

277
00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:44.879
We need to get the police here and stop them at.

278
00:13:45.179 --> 00:13:49.320
It really, really benefits enormously from the editing of episodes

279
00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:50.100
3 and four.

280
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.460
Like it would have been very boring, I think, towards the end.

281
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:57.659
And given that we know some of the scenes that were kind, you know

282
00:13:57.659 --> 00:14:00.720
like I'm really grateful not to have to sit through those scenes

283
00:14:00.720 --> 00:14:01.379
to be quite honest.

284
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:04.500
So the whole thing's sort of out of the way in 3 episodes.

285
00:14:04.620 --> 00:14:08.159
And it doesn't drag. doesn't get tiresome.

286
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:11.220
And can we just talk about the sets for a 2nd as well?

287
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:12.000
Well, in the props?

288
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:12.960
Spectacular.

289
00:14:13.019 --> 00:14:18.179
Well, it's very much that world's fair, uh, symbolism, you know

290
00:14:18.179 --> 00:14:20.940
super big, supersized me, big props.

291
00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:25.200
It's very much, again, the graphic, we would now call them graphic

292
00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:27.899
novels, but those pulp fiction comics.

293
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.860
Batman in the 50s was always climbing over enormous phones and all

294
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:32.399
those props.

295
00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.279
Everybody else, everyone, everyone in a cape has done it.

296
00:14:35.340 --> 00:14:39.960
It's just, again, one of those tropes that comes from, comes from

297
00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:41.759
America with a, you know, the big worldfare thing.

298
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:43.679
The big one was, I think, 39.

299
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:47.279
That was the Futurama show. wasn't it?

300
00:14:47.340 --> 00:14:48.299
Oh, look, possibly.

301
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.759
I'm actually thinking back to the things I've seen over the books

302
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:51.960
of those images.

303
00:14:52.019 --> 00:14:55.080
But yeah, building supersized things for our supersized super big

304
00:14:55.080 --> 00:14:55.980
world that's coming up.

305
00:14:56.039 --> 00:14:59.279
So this is a really interesting take on the borrowers go to

306
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:00.000
dystopia.

307
00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:04.500
The borrowers end up on, in the, in the next chapter of Thomas

308
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:07.139
Moore where that we're all held, breaks loose.

309
00:15:07.259 --> 00:15:09.179
Arietti meets Flyspray.

310
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:10.259
Yeah, okay.

311
00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:11.039
It's true.

312
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.340
And it is a pretty dark thing for them to have done.

313
00:15:14.399 --> 00:15:16.559
And I think really kind of surprising and forward thinking.

314
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:21.419
And it looks really fresh to me today. terribly overlooked and

315
00:15:21.419 --> 00:15:22.679
terribly underrated, I think.

316
00:15:22.740 --> 00:15:23.940
It is really good.

317
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:29.340
It doesn't have any ribbed for her pleasure, rubber faced aliens.

318
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:30.000
No.

319
00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:31.559
We can sometimes do without them.

320
00:15:31.620 --> 00:15:33.480
Oh, every so long.

321
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:34.200
Scandalous words.

322
00:15:34.259 --> 00:15:36.840
Oh, yes, it doesn't have rubber face.

323
00:15:36.899 --> 00:15:39.120
I think it does have a giant ant and a giant.

324
00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:40.139
The 1st of many this year.

325
00:15:40.200 --> 00:15:40.679
Yes.

326
00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:41.519
Yes, indeed.

327
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:43.679
Answer a thing this year, aren't they?

328
00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:48.899
And something that we've commented on and off as we watch series

329
00:15:48.899 --> 00:15:50.879
one in the use of Susan.

330
00:15:50.940 --> 00:15:54.840
Susan is very proactive in this story as well.

331
00:15:54.899 --> 00:15:59.700
It's Susan who realises before Ian that they've been shrunk down

332
00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:02.879
and the implications about and how it happened.

333
00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:08.340
And with Barbara sick in the last episode, Susan sort of becomes

334
00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:11.580
the female lead and she's coming up with ideas and jumping in

335
00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:14.820
where Barbara, you know, there's none of these sort of, oh, we're

336
00:16:14.820 --> 00:16:15.179
shrunk.

337
00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:17.940
We never going to get out of here as we might have expected in the

338
00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:18.600
reign of terror.

339
00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:20.700
Doesn't she do that in episode one?

340
00:16:20.759 --> 00:16:24.419
Doesn't she have a big giant screaming panic about ants or

341
00:16:24.419 --> 00:16:25.080
something?

342
00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:28.860
Well, she just in case you think we shouldn't get rid of her next

343
00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:29.220
story.

344
00:16:29.279 --> 00:16:31.860
The thing is she does see the ant, but she doesn't freak out.

345
00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:33.840
She just kind of goes...

346
00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.379
The only time she freaks out is when the TARVIS doors open, which

347
00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:38.279
is kind of understandable.

348
00:16:38.340 --> 00:16:41.039
It's like if you're in a plane and the door opens, you'd freak out

349
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:41.460
a little.

350
00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:46.440
Yeah, I suppose, but it's still, you know, like, can we get rid of

351
00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:46.740
her soon?

352
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:48.779
The damage has already been done to her character.

353
00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:51.600
I just wanted to say that she is a bit better served by this story

354
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:54.899
than she was in the reign of terror or the Aztecs.

355
00:16:55.019 --> 00:16:56.220
Yeah.

356
00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:58.320
She's pretty good in this.

357
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:02.639
I mean, the only problem in this is she is dressed like she's 12.

358
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.160
They were doing that to her a lot and she complained about it.

359
00:17:05.220 --> 00:17:09.240
She was meant to have Avengers Girls rig and actually hidden flack

360
00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.279
about as an Avengers girl was supposed to.

361
00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:13.380
You know, just get much chance to do that, does she?

362
00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.559
Yeah, I mean, even if they just let her wear her own casual gear

363
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:19.859
occasionally because that that iconic stripe jumper she has that

364
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:22.859
she wears in the next story was hers and the jeans were hers.

365
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:25.920
And they kind of veto that, no, you have to dress younger.

366
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:29.039
It's like, well, no, that's how a teenage girl would dress at

367
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:29.279
home.

368
00:17:29.339 --> 00:17:32.400
Yeah, if she, you know, well-to-do and had the clothes.

369
00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:32.880
What had they?

370
00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:33.359
Yeah, exactly.

371
00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:36.299
But if you wanted to be a... not from roundeer.

372
00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:36.720
Yeah.

373
00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:40.259
If you wanted to be a teenager, let her dress like a teenager, not

374
00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:41.519
like Alice in Wonderland.

375
00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:45.660
It's the whole thing of this show is straining against the norms

376
00:17:45.660 --> 00:17:49.319
and you know, pulling against the leash and trying to do and doing

377
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:51.420
really extraordinarily new things.

378
00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:55.319
And even with a woman producer who was only, what, 26 at the time

379
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:56.099
when she was doing this.

380
00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:00.180
It still is really protracted in its treatment of the 1st

381
00:18:00.180 --> 00:18:03.420
companion and really who should have been, not just a cypher to

382
00:18:03.420 --> 00:18:08.220
the doctor, but the, um, Oh, it's get a bit Yungi in here, the

383
00:18:08.220 --> 00:18:09.299
anima of the doctor.

384
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:12.779
An animus will come up later in the season, won't it?

385
00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.420
Because there is a bit of young in Whittaker's script editing.

386
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:20.700
She really is that should be the female foil to Billy.

387
00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:24.480
And I think that Jackie took that role on very quickly because A

388
00:18:24.480 --> 00:18:28.259
she's 10, 13 years older than Caroline Ford at the time when they

389
00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:30.359
started and was until the end of her run.

390
00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:31.140
Still 13?

391
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:31.319
Really?

392
00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:32.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

393
00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.339
It's strange, relative dimensions, weren't they relative?

394
00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:37.980
But she...

395
00:18:38.039 --> 00:18:41.640
Yeah, it's kind of a shame that they couldn't just allow a bit

396
00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:43.799
more fluidity between the female leads.

397
00:18:43.859 --> 00:18:47.880
It had to be so rigid, is really a very 50s way of writing, and

398
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:49.920
you would have thought that it had been allowed that kind of

399
00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:52.920
progression that they had in the rest of the show, but sadly not

400
00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:54.119
it doesn't seem to have been that way.

401
00:18:54.180 --> 00:18:58.740
I do wonder if they were allowed, well, there's a language, if

402
00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.799
they were allowed to have certain degrees of progression.

403
00:19:01.859 --> 00:19:03.900
So, for instance, they could have a progressive script with a

404
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:08.400
female villain in Carla in the Keys of Mariners, and that, okay

405
00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:13.740
yes, you can have the aliens that are little tanks, but then you

406
00:19:13.740 --> 00:19:16.799
get to the point of having 2 strong female leads and someone

407
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:18.119
upstairs puts their foot down.

408
00:19:18.180 --> 00:19:20.819
And if Verity Lambert and David Whitaker just had to say, okay

409
00:19:20.819 --> 00:19:22.920
well, look, we've got 90% of what we wanted.

410
00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:25.980
And we have to film tomorrow.

411
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.119
So should we, you know, should we fight for Susan now or should we

412
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.039
just get on and film it the best way we can?

413
00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:35.099
Because there would have been so much resistance to almost

414
00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:36.059
everything they were doing.

415
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.539
You have to wonder if occasionally they didn't just go, look, we've

416
00:19:39.539 --> 00:19:40.200
got most of what we want.

417
00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:42.359
Yeah, I have to think though.

418
00:19:42.420 --> 00:19:46.079
I mean, the clear counterixample to that, we're going to discover

419
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.680
in a little while is that they do eventually get it right.

420
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:53.940
And in just a very few episodes from now, they managed to

421
00:19:53.940 --> 00:19:59.460
introduce a young female character who contrasts with Barbara, but

422
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:03.000
actually works on her own terms in a way that Susan really never

423
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:08.400
does, who isn't the sort of panicky idiot that we've learned

424
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:08.819
to...

425
00:20:09.299 --> 00:20:13.740
But this is where I see the cleaver having come down or Madame

426
00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:15.299
Guillotine having swiped down.

427
00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:17.640
And no wonder she was panicking and whinging about being mauled

428
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.259
and having a rat's act going at her.

429
00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:24.839
Because that to me is the end of one possibility and the finite

430
00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:29.039
progression, even though so far it's had no end of the type of a

431
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.160
companion who is in a neat little box and will play a particular

432
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:36.599
kind of young female and always tick these sorts of roles and play

433
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:37.500
this thing and I'm looking at.

434
00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:42.000
Joe Grant, and I'm looking at no matter how far, even to the point

435
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.519
okay, the only one who may be further on broke that mould was

436
00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:45.059
Leila.

437
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:48.359
But look how hard she had to try and how quickly she was pushed

438
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:48.960
back a lot.

439
00:20:49.019 --> 00:20:49.619
They did with her.

440
00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:52.799
How interesting that what they did with her, about to see, you

441
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:53.700
know, kind of similar way.

442
00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:55.980
It's no, no, back in your box.

443
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.480
Don't get too uppity or we'll marry off to someone.

444
00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:01.500
We get to that next story.

445
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.619
The one thing I did like if I can give you super nerdy here, if

446
00:21:04.619 --> 00:21:08.099
you'll allow only a moment of indulgence, if we can start talk

447
00:21:08.099 --> 00:21:09.539
about the TARDIS as a thingy.

448
00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:10.200
Yes.

449
00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:11.819
Love the time as a thingy.

450
00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.220
The time and relative dimension space.

451
00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:17.880
When I 1st saw this, which was back in the 80s on some bootleg

452
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:21.480
copy, all graining and hissy at Stephen Roberts Theatre, thank you

453
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:23.400
Doctor Who Club of Australia for putting that on.

454
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:28.619
My 1st take was, oh, the relative dimensions mean the TARDIS will

455
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:31.380
materialise in context of scale.

456
00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:34.680
So we could have an adventure with microbes.

457
00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:38.220
And then, of course, we get a couple of stories onto adventures in

458
00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:39.599
entomology.

459
00:21:39.660 --> 00:21:43.859
And of course, that the wasps and the termites and the butterflies

460
00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:46.200
a human skull, because the TARDIS is adapted to suit the

461
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:46.680
environment.

462
00:21:46.799 --> 00:21:48.539
That's clever.

463
00:21:48.599 --> 00:21:50.700
So I didn't really see this.

464
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:54.359
I know the Tartar stores open and everything, but did you ever

465
00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:55.559
have that take on it as well?

466
00:21:55.619 --> 00:21:56.640
I have...

467
00:21:57.299 --> 00:21:57.660
You know what?

468
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:02.640
I've always thought the TARDIS can shrink or grow to any size.

469
00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:03.480
It's relative.

470
00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:04.259
It's relative.

471
00:22:04.259 --> 00:22:06.299
And, you know, you get things happening in the books like the

472
00:22:06.299 --> 00:22:08.460
doctor materialising around planets and stuff.

473
00:22:08.579 --> 00:22:08.819
Exactly.

474
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:09.900
But it never happens.

475
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:10.140
Where?

476
00:22:10.140 --> 00:22:10.380
when?

477
00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:10.740
What?

478
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.960
I'm sure that happens in an 8th doctor novel.

479
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.839
It's definitely, you know, everything happens in 8th doctor's.

480
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:16.740
I think he's pregnant.

481
00:22:16.799 --> 00:22:18.720
Not that he remembers.

482
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:23.880
But it never occurred to me to relate that back to Planet of

483
00:22:23.880 --> 00:22:25.740
Giants, and that's a brilliant explanation.

484
00:22:26.099 --> 00:22:30.180
The doctor gets something out of the TARDIS to shrink the Leela

485
00:22:30.180 --> 00:22:32.339
and Dr. Clones invisible.

486
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:33.779
Invisible Enemy, which...

487
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:34.740
The TARDS photocopier.

488
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:35.460
Yeah, yeah.

489
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:36.539
No, no, no, no.

490
00:22:36.599 --> 00:22:37.859
He doesn't climb them. shrinks them.

491
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:38.400
No, it isn't.

492
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:39.539
It's the tallest photocopier.

493
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:40.740
Isn't that the same thing?

494
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:41.400
Oh, no, no.

495
00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:45.240
Professor Marius clones them.

496
00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:47.640
And then they shrink the clones, but we're getting ahead of

497
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.180
ourselves.

498
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.099
And wrap up.

499
00:22:50.099 --> 00:22:52.619
Actually, and wrapper Welsh is about to do it one year on in

500
00:22:52.619 --> 00:22:54.900
Fantastic Voyage and my bubber witch suit.

501
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.200
Yes.

502
00:22:55.200 --> 00:22:55.980
That's for later.

503
00:22:56.579 --> 00:23:01.019
Now, just before we move on, the thing I do want to say about

504
00:23:01.019 --> 00:23:05.039
Planet of Giants, because you've got this commentary of an

505
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:11.400
ecological thriller and concerns about the use of pesticides in

506
00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:12.779
foods and the effect on people.

507
00:23:12.839 --> 00:23:22.140
And then you have This whole other weird, strange subplot with

508
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:26.640
Burton Hilda, the postmistress and her policeman husband.

509
00:23:26.700 --> 00:23:27.720
I think they're married.

510
00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:28.619
I'm not quite sure.

511
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:30.240
I thought they were just gone together.

512
00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:36.660
But it's just so very strange that, um, well, I suppose they have

513
00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:39.599
to be introduced very early on in the story in a sort of Chekhov's

514
00:23:39.599 --> 00:23:43.799
gun effect, but would you like to go on more about Chekhov's gun?

515
00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:46.200
Oh, well, Chekhov's gun, for those of you who don't know, is the

516
00:23:46.200 --> 00:23:49.019
concept by the playwright Anton Chekhov.

517
00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:55.079
He made a comment about writing drama for stage in that if you

518
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:58.980
have a gun which someone fires at the end of the play to kill

519
00:23:58.980 --> 00:24:03.299
someone, you have to have had the gun featured earlier on in the

520
00:24:03.299 --> 00:24:04.740
play, say as a decoration on the wall.

521
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:06.960
It's kind of the other way around, isn't it?

522
00:24:07.019 --> 00:24:10.140
If you have someone preparing a gun in act one, you have to have a

523
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:10.920
goal.

524
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:12.900
Hitchcock trope as well, this movie.

525
00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:13.380
Yeah.

526
00:24:13.740 --> 00:24:14.700
But that's the concept.

527
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:17.279
You know, it at the very least has to be seen prominently.

528
00:24:17.339 --> 00:24:21.660
And that's the thing with Bert and Hilda because Bert bursts in at

529
00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:21.960
the end.

530
00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:26.160
They have to be seen towards the beginning as being somehow

531
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:27.240
involved in the plot.

532
00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:31.440
But the strange thing is, and sort of the wonderful thing, again

533
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:35.700
giving a woman a prominent role in this 60s science fiction series

534
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.759
is it's actually Hilda, who is more suspicious of what's going on

535
00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:41.160
at the farmhouse and keeps having to say to Bert. you should go up

536
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:41.339
there.

537
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.819
Oh no, well, I have to go investigate Mr. Malaprop's thingy over

538
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:45.000
here.

539
00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:46.200
No, you should go up there.

540
00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:48.599
They're straight and I don't like that, Mr. Forrester, you know.

541
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:54.960
And they're these 2 wonderful comedy characters in the middle of

542
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:58.740
this story of animals being killed by pesticide.

543
00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:03.240
It's it's a wonderful Doctor Who-ish, but also, and I know I keep

544
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:04.740
coming back to this, especially with this story.

545
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:09.539
It's a very Avengers kind of juxtaposition of the macabre and the

546
00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:13.019
deadly and the humourous village life.

547
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:17.400
And I think Hilda is a bit of an unsung hero in this because Bert

548
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:20.700
makes his arrest, but never sort of says, oh, I'm glad I listened

549
00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:21.180
to Hilda.

550
00:25:21.240 --> 00:25:23.039
Because if it weren't for Hilda.

551
00:25:23.099 --> 00:25:26.279
You know, he would have never come along and made the arrest. of

552
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:26.700
us would be here.

553
00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:28.500
None of us have been here now.

554
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.259
Barbara would have died and the show would have died with her.

555
00:25:31.319 --> 00:25:33.000
The 1st George and Mildred of Doctor.

556
00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:35.460
And it's funny you should say that because we have, you know

557
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:36.240
coming up soon.

558
00:25:36.299 --> 00:25:39.720
A whole decade of poachers and tramps and blokes and cottages

559
00:25:39.720 --> 00:25:45.480
putting glowing modular, 1960s desk lights into their shared box

560
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.180
and having their wives get cross about it or, you know, just

561
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:53.460
disappearing up a upper fundament of spookiness. saying, oh.

562
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:54.420
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

563
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:58.559
So again, it's another, it's another 1st for Doctor Who.

564
00:25:58.619 --> 00:26:01.920
Lots of great things established this year that will just go on

565
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:02.579
being great.

566
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:10.980
Ah, and that means, yes, it's time to move on from Planet of

567
00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:14.460
Giants and talk about the Dalek invasion of Earth instead.

568
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:20.819
And what was the end of the 1st production block of Doctor Who?

569
00:26:20.940 --> 00:26:25.440
The end of the era and when Doctor Who becomes a show that knows

570
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:26.400
what it's about.

571
00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:31.200
The 1st time that we're actually got a show that responds to

572
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:35.160
audience, interest and audience demands.

573
00:26:35.220 --> 00:26:37.920
This is the show that had to happen and apparently, according to

574
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:42.299
the show notes, the reason We've got another season of it and the

575
00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:43.740
reason it's probably still here today.

576
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:45.059
So whether you like them or not.

577
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.299
We've got a lot to thank the blokes in the dustbins for.

578
00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:50.880
This is, I mean, this is the hugest thing ever, isn't it?

579
00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.319
It is the biggest thing ever.

580
00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:56.160
It's actually, you know, just as Butler's holiday camps were

581
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:59.400
starting to get bored because Marvella and the Spanish coast was

582
00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:02.880
opening up and the British tourists were actually starting to get

583
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:05.579
a little bit of spending money, you know, the war, you know, the

584
00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:08.579
war was something that was in the past and rationing it ended a

585
00:27:08.579 --> 00:27:09.000
few years ago.

586
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:12.119
We've actually got the Daleks doing their own thing coming to

587
00:27:12.119 --> 00:27:16.140
London and taking holiday snaps and all for selfies with each

588
00:27:16.140 --> 00:27:16.440
other.

589
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:18.839
And tagging the little buggers.

590
00:27:18.900 --> 00:27:21.779
They even go around and tell you... vetoed.

591
00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:27.779
Yes, yes, but that lettering on, um, on Lancey's, um, Lions in

592
00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:28.619
Trafalgar Square.

593
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:28.920
Yes.

594
00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:32.220
And of course, they've got their own groupies who wear that as a t

595
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:36.599
shirt and start putting on, you know, years before Bjork, start

596
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:37.619
putting all gaga.

597
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.339
They're putting on really groovy, safe hair dry things and just

598
00:27:41.339 --> 00:27:43.380
saying that, you know, we want to be part of this set.

599
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.059
That's how big the Daleks really work.

600
00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.660
Yeah, I suppose the Robermen are like they're fans.

601
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.759
They're imitating the Daleks.

602
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.059
And just as annoying as fanboys really are, as you'll know by this

603
00:27:54.059 --> 00:27:55.200
episode of the podcast.

604
00:27:56.339 --> 00:28:00.839
Suddenly, too, things just look amazing, don't they?

605
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:03.059
I mean, we've had location scale, aren't they?

606
00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:04.920
We've had location footage before.

607
00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:08.880
Like we had the doctor ambling sort of uninterestingly along a

608
00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:11.759
country lane in Paris, you know, late last year.

609
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:13.740
Like a daguerreotype.

610
00:28:13.799 --> 00:28:17.640
We felt like the 1st moment of cinema when you record a chain

611
00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:22.500
pulling in or a very simple little one point perspective static

612
00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:23.339
camera shop.

613
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:27.059
It's as if Doctor Who has been reflecting the beginning of cinema

614
00:28:27.059 --> 00:28:30.779
in its own little tiny TV world and it'll do that further on in

615
00:28:30.779 --> 00:28:31.500
the season as well.

616
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:35.819
But this, you know, suddenly, for the very 1st time, our regular

617
00:28:35.819 --> 00:28:37.079
cast on location.

618
00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:37.740
Am I wrong about that?

619
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:38.759
No, you're quite right.

620
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:41.039
And episode one, I don't think episode 2 has any location

621
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:41.640
footage.

622
00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:42.599
I think we have to wait.

623
00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:46.259
And the location footage is a bit sparing, but episode one is just

624
00:28:46.259 --> 00:28:49.440
massive, you know, all of them are running around.

625
00:28:49.500 --> 00:28:54.420
It looks really suddenly very spectacular, especially Jacqueline

626
00:28:54.420 --> 00:28:57.960
Hill running around all the collapsed buildings and she just does

627
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:01.380
that very subtle thing with her face that that's when she sort of

628
00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:04.319
starts to figure out there's something wrong and they're not in

629
00:29:04.319 --> 00:29:05.099
1963.

630
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:06.000
Definitely.

631
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:08.759
By this stage, they'd realise that it's Billy and Jackie running

632
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:10.079
the narrative.

633
00:29:10.140 --> 00:29:15.180
Ian is there as the action pivot points and the one that will

634
00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:16.559
actually push the plot along.

635
00:29:16.559 --> 00:29:19.680
We've seen previously when he's not in an episode, nothing

636
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:20.339
happens.

637
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:25.859
So he's definitely there as the as the answer to the antagonism of

638
00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:26.400
the plot.

639
00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:31.079
He's the one that proacts, but Billy and Jackie are the cerebral

640
00:29:31.140 --> 00:29:34.140
members of the cast and the ones that reactive.

641
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:36.119
And again, this is the story where you can really see.

642
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:39.539
Susan will get to Susan.

643
00:29:39.599 --> 00:29:40.859
What does she have to do?

644
00:29:40.920 --> 00:29:41.819
What does she have to say?

645
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:46.079
It's really just there as a series of scenes of telling her that

646
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:47.039
her time has come.

647
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:49.619
I don't think she has much to say in this at all.

648
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:53.339
Yeah, David says to Barbara, like, can you cook?

649
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:54.059
And she says, yes.

650
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:55.380
Oh, good, we need good cooks.

651
00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:56.819
And says, what can you do?

652
00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:57.480
I eat.

653
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:03.000
And that's where things start to get a bit irritating, I think

654
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:04.559
because it does sort of work.

655
00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:08.400
And it is a massive spectacle and obviously all that iconic

656
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:12.240
footage of, you know, Westminster Bridge and Trafalda Square and

657
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.099
all of that sort of thing is really spectacular.

658
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:17.700
But there is that thing, that terry nation thing where he thinks

659
00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:21.119
he's being sort of terrifically gone and grim and macho.

660
00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:25.079
And so he just creates these incredibly tiresome characters.

661
00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:31.980
And everyone's very jaded and very, um, you know, uh, just sort of

662
00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:32.700
unpleasant.

663
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:38.220
You've got Jenny, who's just not a very nice character and and not

664
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:39.240
Dortmund.

665
00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:41.700
Everyone's called Dortmund in...

666
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:46.559
So the other guy, you know, like he's just really sort of grim, and

667
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:49.500
then there is something sort of bizarrely racist about the, uh

668
00:30:49.500 --> 00:30:53.220
about the plague that kills everyone except for Europeans, which

669
00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:53.940
is...

670
00:30:53.940 --> 00:30:55.259
It's the 1st time we have plagues.

671
00:30:55.319 --> 00:30:57.000
They do, it does.

672
00:30:57.000 --> 00:30:57.779
And the E-word.

673
00:30:57.839 --> 00:30:59.039
First time we get the E word.

674
00:30:59.099 --> 00:31:00.240
Yeah, extermination.

675
00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:03.180
Ah, but you know, singer rather than plural, yeah.

676
00:31:03.240 --> 00:31:04.559
Oh, yeah, yeah, experiment age.

677
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:08.700
The plague that kills everyone except for white middle class

678
00:31:08.700 --> 00:31:10.019
people is something that...

679
00:31:10.500 --> 00:31:10.859
What is that?

680
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:12.900
It's so imperial, but we've kept India.

681
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:13.980
Oh, India is still there.

682
00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:15.359
No, that's referred to.

683
00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:18.420
Yeah, well, yeah, the Daleks say they're masters of India.

684
00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:20.819
So there must be people there for them to be masters.

685
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:23.819
They seem to have got rid of every other coloured race.

686
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:25.140
There's a lot.

687
00:31:25.380 --> 00:31:27.000
He does reuse that for survivors.

688
00:31:27.059 --> 00:31:28.319
That's the premise of survivors.

689
00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:31.140
He's a giant plague that kills everyone except for middle class.

690
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:32.160
White people.

691
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:32.940
This os a lot.

692
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.519
And it's funny you're talking about Barbara running through those

693
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.680
deconstructed ruins.

694
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:40.619
It owes a lot, I think, to other British SF, because, you know

695
00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:43.259
it's Terry Nation, so he's not going to let any good idea go, even

696
00:31:43.259 --> 00:31:46.140
if it's somebody else's, especially if it's somebody else's.

697
00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:47.940
So there's a lot of John Wyndham in this.

698
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:49.200
You get that as well.

699
00:31:49.259 --> 00:31:50.700
Oh, that just...

700
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.000
British SF was severely dystopian after the war.

701
00:31:54.059 --> 00:31:55.799
It was the darkest writing.

702
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:58.319
When is Day La Trifford's?

703
00:31:58.319 --> 00:31:59.220
50s.

704
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:00.180
Is it?

705
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:00.779
Yes, yeah.

706
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:01.440
Okay.

707
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:03.000
So is Midwitch cuckoos.

708
00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:04.140
Is it about again?

709
00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:07.319
And we've also seen a bit of quite a bit of equator mess in this

710
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:08.400
story too, aren't we?

711
00:32:08.460 --> 00:32:10.740
So, you know, we've seen things that we've already seen on BBC.

712
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:13.019
The day of the Triffords thing is exactly it, though.

713
00:32:13.079 --> 00:32:16.319
And it is that sort of, you know, the world has gone to hell.

714
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.119
And there is something about the day of the trip.

715
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.299
You get meteorites coming in 6 months before the story or whenever

716
00:32:21.299 --> 00:32:21.960
it was.

717
00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:24.720
Well, that's how the plague comes, is it, by meteorites?

718
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:25.559
And so...

719
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:30.539
I really hate Day of the Tricians, because it is entertaining, but

720
00:32:30.539 --> 00:32:34.859
it annoys the hell out of me in that the Triffords are the

721
00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:36.480
author's agents.

722
00:32:36.539 --> 00:32:41.700
So you get this sort of picture of, of, we can edit all this out.

723
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.140
Do you get this?

724
00:32:43.259 --> 00:32:45.359
because the Daleks are really just the author's agent.

725
00:32:45.420 --> 00:32:48.299
They're nothing. other than to be a beautiful, bluscious piece of

726
00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:51.839
pop art, like a Margaret, even doing a bathing beauty shop coming

727
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:52.680
out of the game.

728
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.740
Ursula, I just did it a year before and doctor.

729
00:32:55.859 --> 00:32:57.240
Dalek doing it in this.

730
00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:03.059
Does Rod mention that?

731
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:04.140
No, no, no.

732
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:07.140
It's not that homeowned. unless you're another girl.

733
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:09.599
Support your back to your dustbin.

734
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:13.259
Before we get to your comment, I can throw in what Rod did say

735
00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:14.460
about Darlic Invasion of Earth.

736
00:33:14.519 --> 00:33:15.240
I think you might like it.

737
00:33:15.299 --> 00:33:18.539
It's quite good, but I prefer the film version, better sets, more

738
00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:20.220
action, and it had burden cribbons.

739
00:33:20.579 --> 00:33:22.380
Eileen Way.

740
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:24.420
I like Bernard Cribbons in vinyl.

741
00:33:24.660 --> 00:33:26.640
I don't think anybody.

742
00:33:26.700 --> 00:33:27.720
He did record on vinyl.

743
00:33:27.779 --> 00:33:28.380
We'll clean this up.

744
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:30.839
Has anyone ever said that before?

745
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:34.079
Well, he was he was quite handsome in his youth.

746
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:37.259
I think he was too. a bit of a matinee idol.

747
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:41.940
So the thing about the thing about this and day of the truth is

748
00:33:41.940 --> 00:33:45.599
they're both about examining how society works under stress and

749
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.000
about different ways of constituting society.

750
00:33:48.059 --> 00:33:52.140
So when Susan and Barbara turn up at the underground based thing

751
00:33:52.140 --> 00:33:55.319
they're given jobs to do, you know, no one can be kind of

752
00:33:55.319 --> 00:33:55.740
useless.

753
00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:58.980
That's why Susan's thing is confronting.

754
00:33:59.099 --> 00:34:02.339
You know, she admits to being of no sort of practical value.

755
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:03.779
Within the narrative.

756
00:34:03.900 --> 00:34:06.900
Well, as anyone who's watched the show up to now would realise.

757
00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.980
And so it's about different ways of constituting society.

758
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:14.099
And the thing about Day of the Triffords is, there are lots of

759
00:34:14.099 --> 00:34:17.460
different ways of constituting society that come into conflict.

760
00:34:17.460 --> 00:34:19.199
And he sets these up.

761
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:22.679
There are, you know, different groups who operate under different

762
00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:23.880
rules and laws.

763
00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:28.500
And Wyndham just sends the Triffords in to kill any group that he

764
00:34:28.500 --> 00:34:29.820
disapproves of.

765
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.760
So, you know, there's those Christians who sort of set things up

766
00:34:32.760 --> 00:34:34.619
and they're all sort of marrying and stuff.

767
00:34:34.679 --> 00:34:36.780
And then later we come back and the trippards have killed them

768
00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:37.079
all.

769
00:34:37.139 --> 00:34:44.460
So he uses them as a sort of authorial bully property to express

770
00:34:44.460 --> 00:34:46.380
his own political opinions, I think.

771
00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:50.340
That's a very good point because thinking about that in terms of

772
00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:51.599
Dalek Invasion of Earth.

773
00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:54.719
You've got the character Ashton, the black marketeer at the labour

774
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:59.760
cap, who comes in, and when we see him, he sells someone some food

775
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.280
demands more money from them, gives them less food because they

776
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:04.739
can't give him enough money, and is immediately killed by the

777
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:05.340
slither.

778
00:35:05.460 --> 00:35:07.380
The slither.

779
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:08.880
The wicked liver.

780
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.280
We will get to talk about this as well, but this is the 1st of

781
00:35:11.280 --> 00:35:12.420
Terry's.

782
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:13.019
Is it the 1st?

783
00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:15.840
No, I guess there are sort of stupid monsters in...

784
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.099
Well, he did have the sort of inflatable octopus in the Daleks.

785
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.699
The thing that comes up out of the spot, and then we need...

786
00:35:23.820 --> 00:35:25.559
A sporadic pseudopology.

787
00:35:25.619 --> 00:35:29.579
But he will, you know, in complete defiance of any knowledge of

788
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:32.880
what the production team is actually able to put on the screen.

789
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.760
He will say, let's have a big scary monster.

790
00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:39.300
And I mean, the slither really is like truly, truly dismal, isn't

791
00:35:39.300 --> 00:35:39.420
it?

792
00:35:39.480 --> 00:35:40.559
It's filmed, though.

793
00:35:40.619 --> 00:35:45.719
I like the idea of it being part, um, green bugeye thing and part

794
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:47.699
vegetable and part two.

795
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:50.219
It's actually kind of crinoid. and look how good that was.

796
00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:51.119
Yeah.

797
00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:51.719
Yeah.

798
00:35:52.739 --> 00:35:59.219
I think it's also that the suit lacks the sort of texture that the

799
00:35:59.219 --> 00:36:02.699
crinoid would later have because the crinoid and the axle, I

800
00:36:02.699 --> 00:36:06.239
suppose, had a sort of base level, which was then covered in

801
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:06.719
tendril.

802
00:36:06.780 --> 00:36:09.420
So if the tendrils move, you can see the skin beneath it, whereas

803
00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:15.480
the slither just has the skin and actor wobbling inside it.

804
00:36:15.539 --> 00:36:17.760
And was it Nick Evans?

805
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:19.920
I think was the actor inside it going?

806
00:36:20.699 --> 00:36:21.539
This is the point.

807
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:25.500
And again, we've got a, because he's considered, you know, reliable

808
00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:28.860
but this is another Richard Martin directed story and not a Duggee

809
00:36:28.860 --> 00:36:30.000
Canfield directed story.

810
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:30.599
That's true.

811
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:32.400
I think you would have seen something kind of different.

812
00:36:32.519 --> 00:36:35.579
But he would have kept it off the screen as much as possible

813
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:36.239
perhaps.

814
00:36:36.300 --> 00:36:39.719
I know you guys aren't the biggest fans of Richard Martin's work

815
00:36:39.719 --> 00:36:43.079
but I think he sort of falls between the stalls of, you know, he's

816
00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:47.519
he is no Dougie Canfield, but his film work is very, very good.

817
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.159
Yeah, he's got no time to do it.

818
00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:51.239
When he's got time to do it.

819
00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:55.440
And his studio work is It is technically proficient.

820
00:36:55.500 --> 00:36:57.000
You don't tend to say.

821
00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:58.860
Are you sure you want to say that so soon?

822
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:03.000
We're going to discuss the chase with its many cameras in shot and

823
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.159
studio noise in the background.

824
00:37:05.219 --> 00:37:07.199
I will say it for this story.

825
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:11.340
You know, you don't tend to have as many cameras running into

826
00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:11.820
things.

827
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:12.659
You don't.

828
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.119
I am just talking about this story for now.

829
00:37:15.539 --> 00:37:20.579
And also, whenever he's got a crowd scene, he makes sure there is

830
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:22.679
something happening in the background, somebody happening in the

831
00:37:22.679 --> 00:37:24.239
midground and something happening in the foreground.

832
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:25.679
And a zombie running into the camera.

833
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:27.000
And a zombie running into the camera.

834
00:37:27.059 --> 00:37:28.920
I am just talking about this story.

835
00:37:28.980 --> 00:37:32.340
He does wear a fantastic...

836
00:37:32.460 --> 00:37:33.420
He does though, doesn't he?

837
00:37:33.960 --> 00:37:35.400
It's got a full points with that.

838
00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:36.480
And is he still around?

839
00:37:36.539 --> 00:37:37.260
Yeah, yeah.

840
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:38.099
So there you go.

841
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:38.940
So we've got to love him.

842
00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:40.139
He's lovely. really nice.

843
00:37:40.199 --> 00:37:41.280
I think that's the problem.

844
00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:44.400
He's obviously a genuine gentleman of the old school.

845
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:49.980
Hence the flirtatious neck where he's also, for that reason, I

846
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:52.260
think, just too sweet and people took advantage of it.

847
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.780
It's like, this is why Dougie Canfield stuff is so tight and

848
00:37:54.780 --> 00:37:56.579
regimented because he cracked a whip.

849
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:59.099
And if you bug it up, that was it.

850
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:00.840
You were off the set. you were, no, that's it.

851
00:38:00.900 --> 00:38:01.980
You don't work with me ever again.

852
00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:04.500
And he worked with very, it was a very tight military crew.

853
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:06.179
We should mutter. hello, darling, hello, lovely.

854
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:07.079
It's lovely to see you.

855
00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:09.239
So, of course, they're all standing around having a smoke.

856
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:11.280
And if that door bangs or if that prop falls over.

857
00:38:11.340 --> 00:38:12.900
Well, it's videotape you can't edit it.

858
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.000
Yeah, but who got better results?

859
00:38:15.059 --> 00:38:16.079
Yeah, yeah.

860
00:38:16.139 --> 00:38:18.599
Yeah, that's what you got to watch. interesting point, isn't it?

861
00:38:18.659 --> 00:38:21.599
Because there's different textural effects that you get.

862
00:38:21.659 --> 00:38:26.880
The cast may actually be giving more or be sharing more between

863
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.840
each other, the regular cost in Martin's stories.

864
00:38:30.900 --> 00:38:33.659
There's some lovely close shots between them that you may not get

865
00:38:33.659 --> 00:38:34.019
say.

866
00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.480
Because they're so comfortable with research.

867
00:38:36.599 --> 00:38:36.780
Exactly.

868
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:37.260
Exactly.

869
00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.840
We haven't discussed World War II.

870
00:38:39.900 --> 00:38:42.719
Oh, there's a lot to say about.

871
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:44.820
Oh, look, the problem is Susan.

872
00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:46.079
Should we finish with season, though?

873
00:38:46.139 --> 00:38:46.860
I think we should do.

874
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:48.179
Yeah, so we not too World War II.

875
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:51.539
I mean, this is, again, you know, the famous science fiction trope

876
00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:53.099
of what if the Nazis had won.

877
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:53.880
Yes.

878
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:57.960
And so you get them, you know, goose stepping, they don't really

879
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:01.320
have legs, but they're sort of rolling into Trafalda Square and

880
00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:02.579
doing a...

881
00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:04.199
They are doing a...

882
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:07.980
Yeah, with their plunges and the black marketeer thing and those

883
00:39:07.980 --> 00:39:12.599
the collaborator women who make clothes for the for the prison

884
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:13.079
camp.

885
00:39:13.139 --> 00:39:14.159
Do you know what I mean?

886
00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:16.739
And there's clearly food rationing and things going on.

887
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:20.880
And so Richard, in when we talked about the dialects, you talked

888
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:25.500
about them as a sort of analogue of communism.

889
00:39:25.559 --> 00:39:26.940
And we've lost that with this one.

890
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:30.000
This is very much the blitz reformed.

891
00:39:30.119 --> 00:39:33.960
This is really, and there were other novels at the time talking

892
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:38.940
about this, what's going to happen, what would have happened if

893
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:41.219
Robert Harrison was.

894
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:43.079
Yeah, it lost.

895
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.440
You know, 19441, that was so close to happening.

896
00:39:46.500 --> 00:39:48.599
It was really only the Yanks stepping in.

897
00:39:48.659 --> 00:39:52.619
Which is funny when you see American actors in this in this

898
00:39:52.619 --> 00:39:52.980
series.

899
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.880
They're always seen in that kind of duality of being rescuing

900
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.000
heroes, but also if they're a little bit clotsy, aren't they?

901
00:40:00.059 --> 00:40:02.519
And you see that the Americans portrayed in this.

902
00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:07.079
Um, we've got the wonderful Bernard Kay, of course, is Tyler being

903
00:40:07.079 --> 00:40:10.019
the I think the real centre of the narrative of this story outside

904
00:40:10.019 --> 00:40:11.280
of the TARDIS crew.

905
00:40:11.340 --> 00:40:14.460
Dortmund is just kind of there to be Dortmund and utterly futile

906
00:40:14.460 --> 00:40:14.820
thing.

907
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.280
This is a show that looks and should be wonderful.

908
00:40:17.340 --> 00:40:20.519
We've got great ratings, but he's actually a bit pants when it

909
00:40:20.519 --> 00:40:24.420
comes down to plotting and can we just get to what the hell were

910
00:40:24.420 --> 00:40:25.920
they doing here in the 1st place?

911
00:40:25.980 --> 00:40:28.739
You've, okay, you've got space technology.

912
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:31.860
Yes, you're finally flying, we could shoot, this is the original

913
00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:35.159
Daleks just moved on a little bit, but you're going to hollow out

914
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:40.440
the magnetic core of a planet and put a motor in it and drive it

915
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:43.619
around the solar system very, very slowly.

916
00:40:43.739 --> 00:40:47.460
No, no, um, Philip Sanders says that it's he's driving it around

917
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:48.719
the galaxy to pick up girls.

918
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:53.579
Do you think they saw mom desk and thought, I've got a bit

919
00:40:53.579 --> 00:40:54.059
jealous.

920
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:57.179
Well, no, it's all right now because Russell T. Navy's explained

921
00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:58.739
everything in the stolen earth.

922
00:40:58.860 --> 00:41:02.159
Oh, they were creating a big thing out of 26 planets in the lost

923
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.860
mood of Pooh. to do a thing to destroy everything.

924
00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:05.579
Yeah.

925
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.440
It takes more sex than this time.

926
00:41:07.500 --> 00:41:10.980
Well, okay, that was a sound of a result who said that perhaps

927
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:13.500
these Daleks are actually genuinely insane.

928
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:15.719
That's it from the past, by the way.

929
00:41:15.780 --> 00:41:18.360
The doctor says Renny says it's a 1000000 years.

930
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:21.179
Yeah, yeah, that was...

931
00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:25.860
Well, I think I think the fan sort of retcorn of it is that they

932
00:41:25.860 --> 00:41:31.320
left Scaro long before the Daleks we see on Scaro, which is why

933
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.659
they're also more advanced because they had to come up with a way

934
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:34.739
to leave their ship.

935
00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:40.079
But I mean, there is a sense in which the why they're there is the

936
00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:40.679
McGuffin.

937
00:41:40.739 --> 00:41:43.980
I mean, the reason that they're there is because they were hugely

938
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:48.300
successful last time and the reason they're in London is because

939
00:41:48.300 --> 00:41:51.000
you know, that's where all these viewers are and it makes it

940
00:41:51.000 --> 00:41:52.619
really sort of present and exciting.

941
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:56.699
And it really, that really works in episodes one and three, I keep

942
00:41:56.699 --> 00:41:57.480
thinking it's three.

943
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.800
You know, that is the season, the episodes, the story's biggest

944
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:02.219
success.

945
00:42:02.340 --> 00:42:03.900
I guess that's the point, isn't it?

946
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:09.900
Daleks are not driven by logic, but by really human, um, dark, uh

947
00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:17.099
you know, such as racial impulses such as, you know, racial racial

948
00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:17.519
purity.

949
00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:19.199
Mars doesn't have a magnetosphere.

950
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.039
They could have just used that.

951
00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:21.960
But it makes so much easier.

952
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:24.239
Well, the no population.

953
00:42:24.300 --> 00:42:27.179
They're driven by the needs of the narrative, I think.

954
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:32.159
The Daleks are there to give the audience what they want and we'll

955
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:34.739
see them, you know, featuring really prominently for the next

956
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:37.920
couple of years just because just out of narrative necessity, you

957
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:38.159
know.

958
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:39.659
Yeah.

959
00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:44.099
I wonder if we could retcon, um, Darlic Convasion of Earth

960
00:42:44.099 --> 00:42:46.079
enlighten the latest story, the Pirate Planet.

961
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:47.820
In the chase.

962
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:51.000
They have dematerialisation rematerialization technology.

963
00:42:51.059 --> 00:42:53.579
So could they have been hollowing out Earth to rematerialize

964
00:42:53.579 --> 00:42:56.099
around the other planets in the solar system because I believe

965
00:42:56.099 --> 00:42:59.159
Earth is the largest terrestrial planet in the solar system.

966
00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:01.860
The larger sort of non-gas giant.

967
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:02.579
Yes, exactly.

968
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:04.679
I know Venus is around the same size.

969
00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:07.860
I'm not sure if Venus is larger than Earth or not, but it could

970
00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:09.420
then materialise around Mercury.

971
00:43:09.480 --> 00:43:13.500
Mars, um, Pluto and asteroids at the very least.

972
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.579
And mine, mine resources from it.

973
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:21.539
Well, I think that just ternation isn't remotely interested in

974
00:43:21.539 --> 00:43:24.599
anything like that and it really is just as silly as possible.

975
00:43:24.659 --> 00:43:27.780
And, you know, let's have some minds and all that sort of thing, I

976
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:28.019
guess.

977
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:32.820
And, you know, um, so it really is just sort of a pulp B grade

978
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:35.099
science fiction reason for them to be there.

979
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:36.659
But that's not what we're interested in.

980
00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.559
We are interested in the Dalek emerging from the Thames and Daleks

981
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.599
you know, going down Westminster Bridge and things.

982
00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:46.260
It's about Britain finding its identity in that period of the 60s

983
00:43:46.260 --> 00:43:49.739
because the Daleks do represent the Nazis, but they kind of also

984
00:43:49.739 --> 00:43:50.940
represent the Yanks.

985
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:52.800
Don't forget it, it's George Orler.

986
00:43:52.860 --> 00:43:55.380
We talked about Britain being airship one.

987
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:57.659
And there was a whole lot of...

988
00:43:57.719 --> 00:43:58.619
Yeah, that is it.

989
00:43:58.679 --> 00:43:59.340
Thank you.

990
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:04.320
Looking at how Britain had just become a base for the Yanks and

991
00:44:04.320 --> 00:44:07.500
their military tech and nuclear tech and that this was something

992
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:09.659
that the Brits should be very angry about.

993
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:12.599
Not that dissimilar from Australia and Pine Gap and the bases were

994
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:14.159
allowing to be built in the north.

995
00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:21.360
So they're seen as they're seen as the very neat cookie cutter for

996
00:44:21.360 --> 00:44:25.679
everything that's not us and everything that is of us that we

997
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:29.400
would wish not to be or that we haven't properly acknowledged, so

998
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:30.599
we'll put it in a tin suit.

999
00:44:30.659 --> 00:44:32.039
They're the perfect villain, actually.

1000
00:44:32.099 --> 00:44:38.880
It's it's our hate and our shadow and, you know, neatly...

1001
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:40.860
Compact...

1002
00:44:40.860 --> 00:44:42.599
In a symbol, we can hate.

1003
00:44:42.659 --> 00:44:43.260
Exactly.

1004
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:43.860
Perfect.

1005
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:45.360
And we and we can hate it.

1006
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:47.639
But be righteous in our hatred.

1007
00:44:47.699 --> 00:44:48.360
Exactly.

1008
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:51.659
Because they've denied the humanity and they do all the naughty

1009
00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:54.840
things that we also do, but we like to pretend that we also

1010
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:55.739
capable of good.

1011
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.099
Dialects don't appear to be capable of any good at all, except by

1012
00:44:59.099 --> 00:45:00.059
haphazard.

1013
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:02.699
And don't wish to be... don't wish to be.

1014
00:45:02.880 --> 00:45:03.539
Got no design.

1015
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:07.739
No, which is precisely why Billy leaves his granddaughter right in

1016
00:45:07.739 --> 00:45:10.139
the middle of their mess after they bugged him off.

1017
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:11.639
We need to come to that, don't we?

1018
00:45:11.880 --> 00:45:15.539
because it really bothers me because we've mentioned in the 1st

1019
00:45:15.539 --> 00:45:19.380
podcast that the day before Doctor Who's 1st episode went out.

1020
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:23.219
Both C.S. Lewis and all this Huxley passed away, so that's correct

1021
00:45:23.219 --> 00:45:23.639
isn't it?

1022
00:45:23.699 --> 00:45:27.719
Do you remember in the end of Liner Witch and the Wardrobe and

1023
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:32.519
before the saga moved on, the only member of the original cast of

1024
00:45:32.519 --> 00:45:36.179
children who went through the wardrobe that were left behind was

1025
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:36.599
Susan?

1026
00:45:36.659 --> 00:45:38.400
That's not quite right.

1027
00:45:38.460 --> 00:45:39.239
That's not quite right.

1028
00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:43.800
The problem from Susan comes from the last battle, which is the

1029
00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:45.780
very last of the series.

1030
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:51.719
Um, and uh, the last battle sees all of the children and probably

1031
00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:55.199
their parents and things go to an idealised version of Narnia that

1032
00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:58.679
represents heaven because they've all died in a horrific train

1033
00:45:58.679 --> 00:46:04.019
accident, which is exactly how you want your child heroes of, you

1034
00:46:04.019 --> 00:46:06.840
know, like a long running series to uh, to end up.

1035
00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:11.159
And it's one of the reasons, like the last battle, I've grown to

1036
00:46:11.159 --> 00:46:13.019
really dislike Lewis over the years.

1037
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:15.360
I think he's a sort of pompous conservative.

1038
00:46:15.900 --> 00:46:18.480
It's really old Anglican theology, isn't it?

1039
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:21.119
quite horrible from really steadfast.

1040
00:46:21.179 --> 00:46:24.239
Aslan is really appalling.

1041
00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:26.460
Not very progressive New Testament, is he?

1042
00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:28.679
He's just not very much like Jesus.

1043
00:46:28.739 --> 00:46:30.059
He's like a horrible.

1044
00:46:30.119 --> 00:46:33.480
He's a lot of Old Testament in Asland's Isaacs as well, yeah.

1045
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:34.260
He's a bully.

1046
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:38.940
And so and so at the end, they all go to heaven, but the only

1047
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:42.059
person who has been to Narnia who doesn't go is Susan.

1048
00:46:42.119 --> 00:46:46.260
The reason that she doesn't go to heaven is that she now says that

1049
00:46:46.260 --> 00:46:50.519
the Narnia stuff was stuff that they did as kids, but they that it

1050
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:51.360
never really happened.

1051
00:46:51.420 --> 00:46:57.239
And I think Lucy says that she's more interested in nylons and

1052
00:46:57.239 --> 00:46:59.159
lipsticks and boys.

1053
00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:00.179
Thank you.

1054
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:02.039
And that's my memory of it as well.

1055
00:47:02.099 --> 00:47:03.780
It's hazy because I hadn't read them since school.

1056
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:07.619
But my memory of Sarah Lewis is Susan is denied because she's

1057
00:47:07.619 --> 00:47:09.059
achieved womanhood.

1058
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.940
Yeah, she's discovered her sexuality.

1059
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.099
And I'm sorry, we don't have room for you anymore.

1060
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.800
Isn't that exactly what we're seeing here?

1061
00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:20.099
And when I say the problem with Susan, it's not just Carol Anne's

1062
00:47:20.099 --> 00:47:22.559
performance that I think was sadly neglected, there are many

1063
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:25.199
levels on which this character could have really opened up

1064
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:28.860
something in the way that, not just British science fiction

1065
00:47:28.860 --> 00:47:32.519
writing, but very much so, was so much more profound and deep than

1066
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:35.820
anything we got on TV with a few sparse choices here and there.

1067
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:40.860
So much more involved with character and real consternation and

1068
00:47:40.860 --> 00:47:41.579
real conflict.

1069
00:47:41.579 --> 00:47:45.780
And we get little hints of that, but we brought back to toe the

1070
00:47:45.780 --> 00:47:48.539
line in each story, stories like the sensory rights, we've seen

1071
00:47:48.539 --> 00:47:51.119
previously where we get her being able to step out of her mould

1072
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.940
and actually start being the progressive force in the narrative

1073
00:47:53.940 --> 00:47:55.320
and certain the thing that's pulling it along.

1074
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:57.599
No, no, back in back in the darkest.

1075
00:47:57.659 --> 00:47:59.159
There we have it.

1076
00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:01.920
Lewis's voice is still very loud in this.

1077
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:06.480
So Sandra brings the problem of Susan, terminology to bear on

1078
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:10.079
Susan, and says that if you've got a character like Susan, who is

1079
00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:14.519
the doctor's granddaughter, he can never really properly go

1080
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:19.860
adventuring because he's always being pulled back, buys a

1081
00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:20.340
protective.

1082
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:21.420
Yeah, that's right.

1083
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:25.500
And so, so he can't, and this is something that they fix when

1084
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:27.719
Vicky comes along, as we'll see quite soon.

1085
00:48:27.900 --> 00:48:32.579
He's fond of Vicki, but he's not related to her and doesn't have

1086
00:48:32.579 --> 00:48:35.760
to protect her in quite the same way, and so Vicki's allowed to do

1087
00:48:35.760 --> 00:48:37.619
things that Susan isn't allowed to do.

1088
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:42.480
Within such a rigid formulaic construct of what a little girl

1089
00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:43.619
character...

1090
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:46.559
No, I disagree with you completely about Vicky I'm going to be

1091
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:48.840
constantly contradicting you.

1092
00:48:48.900 --> 00:48:50.820
I think she's absolutely superb.

1093
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:52.139
And one of the...

1094
00:48:52.139 --> 00:48:52.980
She's a love...

1095
00:48:53.039 --> 00:48:56.099
I think she's a very good actress and possibly, you know, whatever

1096
00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:56.699
how you're the one.

1097
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:58.079
You see it, but you want to see it.

1098
00:48:58.139 --> 00:49:00.840
But she was, of course, she was able to do more because the

1099
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:04.860
character itself was so rigidly structured and finite and it was

1100
00:49:04.860 --> 00:49:06.480
there with which you could do so much.

1101
00:49:06.539 --> 00:49:10.199
Susan could have been anything and because of that, nobody knew

1102
00:49:10.199 --> 00:49:12.239
what to do with her other than bring her back in line.

1103
00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:17.639
Well, but I mean, in practice, what you have is, you know, as I've

1104
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.460
said before, a panicky idiot who's really not very pleasant to

1105
00:49:20.460 --> 00:49:24.300
watch, as opposed to someone who's really having fun, who the

1106
00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:25.440
doctor is really fond of.

1107
00:49:25.500 --> 00:49:28.559
I think Vicki is them getting it right.

1108
00:49:28.619 --> 00:49:31.739
They don't jettison the sort of star child thing.

1109
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:32.820
She's still from the future.

1110
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:33.840
She's still unearthly.

1111
00:49:33.900 --> 00:49:37.860
But she's enjoying herself rather than being terrified by

1112
00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:38.340
everything.

1113
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:41.340
And she's just much more fun to watch.

1114
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:46.139
She still leaves, you know, the relationships with Ian and Barbara

1115
00:49:46.139 --> 00:49:46.860
intact.

1116
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:47.579
Do you know what I mean?

1117
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:49.019
They still get to be a bit parental.

1118
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:54.539
But she's just not tiresome in a way that Susan was.

1119
00:49:54.599 --> 00:49:57.659
And I don't know why Susan couldn't have been like that from the

1120
00:49:57.659 --> 00:49:58.139
outset.

1121
00:49:58.260 --> 00:50:00.719
They didn't have that pocketed.

1122
00:50:00.780 --> 00:50:02.639
They didn't have that structure in place.

1123
00:50:02.699 --> 00:50:07.079
The thing with Vicki is that she's written out of the future.

1124
00:50:07.139 --> 00:50:08.940
She's the most contemporary of all the characters.

1125
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:13.559
She's absolutely Mersey beat, ready, steady, go. kid on a Saturday

1126
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:19.619
night, um, jukebox jury, absolutely of the time.

1127
00:50:19.679 --> 00:50:21.599
She's so, it's 1964.

1128
00:50:21.780 --> 00:50:24.119
She's the most dated character to watch when you're looking at it

1129
00:50:24.119 --> 00:50:24.300
now.

1130
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:25.320
Dodo?

1131
00:50:25.380 --> 00:50:27.119
We haven't got this.

1132
00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:29.340
I don't know her time in her place.

1133
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:33.900
The interesting thing I find, Richard, were you talking about the

1134
00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:39.480
fact that Susan and Vicky fit in the same in the same structure, in

1135
00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:43.019
the same mould, but that structure was actually very broad and

1136
00:50:43.019 --> 00:50:46.980
Susan only was only utilised in a little bit of that structure and

1137
00:50:46.980 --> 00:50:48.300
Vicky was allowed to expand a bit more.

1138
00:50:48.360 --> 00:50:52.199
I think also there's there's an aspect of semiotics in there.

1139
00:50:52.260 --> 00:50:57.780
Because spoiler alert, Susan and Vicky leave in much the same

1140
00:50:57.780 --> 00:50:58.079
way.

1141
00:50:58.139 --> 00:51:01.260
They meet a young man, they'd rather take him with him and go off

1142
00:51:01.260 --> 00:51:01.619
with him.

1143
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:06.480
I skipped over the word beside because one goes by choice. one

1144
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:07.139
goes by choice.

1145
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:09.960
Susan is the doctor's granddaughter.

1146
00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:11.699
He gives her away.

1147
00:51:11.760 --> 00:51:14.340
Vicki is autonomous.

1148
00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:16.920
She is not, she is the granddaughter figure, but she is not the

1149
00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:17.519
granddaughter.

1150
00:51:17.579 --> 00:51:22.139
She chooses to leave, and the doctor actually seems more

1151
00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:25.500
heartbroken about that than he does about Susan going a lot.

1152
00:51:25.500 --> 00:51:28.019
Because with Susan, it's his choice.

1153
00:51:28.139 --> 00:51:33.360
But I think possibly that's why Susan was never used to the full

1154
00:51:33.360 --> 00:51:37.800
capacity of that mould because the 1st thing she was was a dutiful

1155
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:38.460
granddaughter.

1156
00:51:38.519 --> 00:51:44.639
And writers had in their mind what a dutiful granddaughter was in

1157
00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:48.059
1963, long white socks and a bit whingy.

1158
00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:48.599
Yeah.

1159
00:51:48.659 --> 00:51:51.360
But I actually think that I actually think that they made a

1160
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:55.320
mistake and what they thought she needed to be was someone to get

1161
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:59.280
into peril and someone to take on that sort of traditional panicky

1162
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:00.300
female role.

1163
00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:02.280
Exactly, because she was the granddaughter.

1164
00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:06.659
Yeah, I think so, but Barbara is the one that's always getting

1165
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:07.380
nicked him.

1166
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:10.380
Yeah, maybe it's because she's the granddaughter or maybe it's

1167
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:15.539
just a horrible, horrible mistake because, um, you know, I think I

1168
00:52:15.539 --> 00:52:19.079
think that once she starts panicking in episode two, she, that's

1169
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:22.380
really her done, you know, she's she's useless.

1170
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:23.760
She's hamstrungen by that, I think.

1171
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:26.940
And I don't know whether the granddaughter, whether she had to be

1172
00:52:26.940 --> 00:52:30.179
like that because she was the granddaughter or because, uh, you

1173
00:52:30.179 --> 00:52:33.480
know, that's how they thought the juvenile female lead should

1174
00:52:33.480 --> 00:52:34.500
behave.

1175
00:52:34.619 --> 00:52:38.099
But clearly they discover it's a mistake and they do get the

1176
00:52:38.099 --> 00:52:40.920
chance to rectify it with Vicky.

1177
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.960
So her introduction has preceded her.

1178
00:52:46.019 --> 00:52:46.739
So now...

1179
00:52:46.739 --> 00:52:52.079
Ah, yes, time for the rescue, Doctor Who's 1st?

1180
00:52:52.139 --> 00:52:54.119
Oh, I was going to say Doctor Who's 1st 2 parts, sorry.

1181
00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:56.159
Doctor's 1st two-part story that works.

1182
00:52:56.219 --> 00:52:58.199
I think I'll say.

1183
00:52:58.619 --> 00:53:00.480
The rescue.

1184
00:53:00.539 --> 00:53:01.019
So.

1185
00:53:01.320 --> 00:53:03.719
Well, I just think this is terrific, isn't it?

1186
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:05.639
I mean it is really, really tremendous.

1187
00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:08.820
We're going to quote Sandra for again.

1188
00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:14.340
But we've left London in ruins and we've left David Campbell and

1189
00:53:14.340 --> 00:53:21.000
Susan to fix it and this next story is set in the future after

1190
00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:26.159
that and there is an English spaceship with the Union Jack on the

1191
00:53:26.159 --> 00:53:27.300
side of it.

1192
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:31.079
So clearly it has been rebuilt. and there's hope for the future.

1193
00:53:31.380 --> 00:53:35.699
And inside the spaceship is Vicky.

1194
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:37.079
And as we've said before.

1195
00:53:37.139 --> 00:53:40.559
Oh, as we've just been saying, she's, um, she's a terrific

1196
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.460
character and this, this story is really structured around

1197
00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:45.780
introducing her.

1198
00:53:45.840 --> 00:53:48.179
So we had an episode to introduce Susan.

1199
00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:52.320
We get a two-part story to introduce uh, Vicky, and the, and the

1200
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:56.820
two-part story, it's very definitely designed to, to give Maureen

1201
00:53:56.820 --> 00:53:58.260
a chance to do a whole bunch of things.

1202
00:53:58.320 --> 00:54:01.019
So she gets to be sort of scared and desperate.

1203
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:02.579
She gets to be kind of plucky.

1204
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:04.320
She gets to be a bit funny.

1205
00:54:04.380 --> 00:54:06.420
She gets to be won over by the doctor.

1206
00:54:06.420 --> 00:54:11.880
And it's so clear right from the get go that, um, that Billy

1207
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:13.139
really likes her.

1208
00:54:13.139 --> 00:54:17.039
And the relationship between them is is so warm.

1209
00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:19.559
It's really, it's, it's really tremendous.

1210
00:54:19.619 --> 00:54:22.980
But it is a big acting tour de force.

1211
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:27.239
It is, it is something that's just designed to give the companion

1212
00:54:27.239 --> 00:54:27.960
something to do.

1213
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:32.159
And I think at this stage, it's still important to the program

1214
00:54:32.159 --> 00:54:37.739
that the regulars all have a reason to be there and are all very

1215
00:54:37.739 --> 00:54:38.579
clearly defined.

1216
00:54:38.699 --> 00:54:43.380
So Ian and Barbara and now Vicky are all kind of well-defined

1217
00:54:43.380 --> 00:54:46.619
characters, and that's something that we're going to lose very

1218
00:54:46.619 --> 00:54:51.179
quickly next year in season 3 where the characters are all kind of

1219
00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:55.619
just brought in and dumped and no one really thinks about them

1220
00:54:55.619 --> 00:54:59.579
very carefully at all or, you know, their accents change halfway

1221
00:54:59.579 --> 00:55:00.840
through their run or whatever.

1222
00:55:00.900 --> 00:55:04.619
Whereas, whereas here, you know, David Whittaker's really, you

1223
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:08.159
know, uh, taking the opportunity to, am I right?

1224
00:55:08.219 --> 00:55:12.239
Yeah, David Whitaker, taking the opportunity to really... his 1st

1225
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:13.860
go now that he's not grouped editor.

1226
00:55:13.920 --> 00:55:14.880
Spooner has come in.

1227
00:55:14.940 --> 00:55:19.260
Yeah, it started the tradition, which carried on through to really

1228
00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:23.280
the 80s of the outgoing script editor writing the 1st script for

1229
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:24.179
the new script editor.

1230
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:25.260
Yeah.

1231
00:55:25.320 --> 00:55:28.739
Although Terrence Dix, I think, said that he made up that

1232
00:55:28.739 --> 00:55:30.420
tradition in order to believe...

1233
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.579
There's a lot of that.

1234
00:55:32.820 --> 00:55:33.900
Yeah, but he invented it.

1235
00:55:33.900 --> 00:55:34.920
He happened to be in the room.

1236
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:38.579
Including saying all you need is an original idea.

1237
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:39.480
It doesn't have to be yours.

1238
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:41.460
So I think he covers...

1239
00:55:41.820 --> 00:55:44.039
Because that's exactly what Doctor Who is still doing well and

1240
00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:44.699
why.

1241
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:48.239
Even though, you know, we've got other friends who listen to this

1242
00:55:48.239 --> 00:55:50.639
who have said, hi, Greg Miller, have said that they feel that this

1243
00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:54.719
is the weakest story of the season because it's so simplistic, I

1244
00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:57.239
would add, I'm into caps.

1245
00:55:57.300 --> 00:56:01.019
I believe it works because it does what the BBC very much did at

1246
00:56:01.019 --> 00:56:04.139
the time was, it's not just a piece of science fiction, there are

1247
00:56:04.139 --> 00:56:04.860
other layers as well.

1248
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:09.659
And what the BBC did terrifically was historical fiction and cod

1249
00:56:09.659 --> 00:56:10.440
Shakespeare.

1250
00:56:10.500 --> 00:56:11.880
This is the tempest.

1251
00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:15.659
And interestingly, you've got Prospero and Caliban as the same

1252
00:56:15.659 --> 00:56:16.019
character.

1253
00:56:16.019 --> 00:56:20.219
And the spoiler alert, but you're not...

1254
00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:21.599
And that is...

1255
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:22.860
I mean, that's tremendous as well.

1256
00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:29.099
And again, Sandafar, the idea that the big reveal is that the guy

1257
00:56:29.099 --> 00:56:34.079
in a rubber suit is actually playing a guy in a rubber suit rather

1258
00:56:34.079 --> 00:56:35.699
than a monster. isn't it?

1259
00:56:35.699 --> 00:56:36.239
Yeah.

1260
00:56:36.300 --> 00:56:39.119
And so, you know, that's a that's a sort of great gag.

1261
00:56:39.179 --> 00:56:44.280
And it's simple, you know, like Greg might complain that it's too

1262
00:56:44.280 --> 00:56:48.179
simple, but, you know, the given that the show in long stories

1263
00:56:48.179 --> 00:56:52.559
will complicate things by trudging through a swamp for 3 episodes

1264
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:58.139
or having us go back to prison for no reason, you know, just to

1265
00:56:58.139 --> 00:56:59.400
pad the whole thing out.

1266
00:56:59.460 --> 00:57:01.500
I think this is really refreshing.

1267
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:05.820
And I think that as we discovered this millennium, that a story

1268
00:57:05.820 --> 00:57:10.679
roughly sort of 45 minutes long actually quite works as a doctor

1269
00:57:10.679 --> 00:57:14.699
story because it cuts out all of the sort of being captured and

1270
00:57:14.699 --> 00:57:15.900
escaping that we are.

1271
00:57:15.960 --> 00:57:17.519
I like a 3 parter.

1272
00:57:17.579 --> 00:57:20.639
I like a bit of exposition just for character development in the

1273
00:57:20.639 --> 00:57:20.880
middle.

1274
00:57:20.940 --> 00:57:24.000
It's the reason that Thunderbirds is such a great piece of

1275
00:57:24.000 --> 00:57:26.400
geriaterson and everything else isn't because it's half the

1276
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:26.699
length.

1277
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:30.059
I was actually thinking about the story in terms of the new series

1278
00:57:30.059 --> 00:57:30.960
so I'm glad you brought that up.

1279
00:57:31.019 --> 00:57:35.340
Something I sort of realised last year, I was watching a new

1280
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:40.380
episode of Doctor Who, and I thought, in terms of structure, and

1281
00:57:40.380 --> 00:57:41.039
stakes.

1282
00:57:41.099 --> 00:57:44.039
This is very similar to the Bells of St.

1283
00:57:44.039 --> 00:57:44.280
John.

1284
00:57:44.820 --> 00:57:51.179
Because you've got the doctor arriving and discovering, um, okay

1285
00:57:51.179 --> 00:57:53.880
in the rescue, an orphan in Bells of St.

1286
00:57:53.880 --> 00:57:57.179
John, a girl who's lost her mother, and instead of going on and

1287
00:57:57.179 --> 00:58:00.480
living her own dream, she's looking after some children, looking

1288
00:58:00.480 --> 00:58:05.159
after an old man, the great intelligence was to take Clara's

1289
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:07.079
personhood and make her a husk.

1290
00:58:07.139 --> 00:58:10.800
Bennett wants Vicky to be his mouthpiece.

1291
00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:16.800
And sort of the confrontation at the end with Billy just sort of

1292
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:18.420
sitting there saying, I was waiting for you.

1293
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:20.460
And then suddenly this click moment when...

1294
00:58:20.460 --> 00:58:22.980
My favourite scene and the reason this really works for me, that

1295
00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:25.320
in the Hall of Judgement, they call it...

1296
00:58:25.380 --> 00:58:27.719
Not only is it a beautiful set, we should just say the lighting in

1297
00:58:27.719 --> 00:58:31.500
this is superb, but when you get 2 really good actors together and

1298
00:58:31.500 --> 00:58:34.980
someone who can be a fall for Billy and the person Ray Barrett, who

1299
00:58:34.980 --> 00:58:36.900
is just perfect. and also did a lot of honeyloops.

1300
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:39.599
It's it's just such a gorgeous thing, isn't it?

1301
00:58:39.659 --> 00:58:41.940
There's a great moment and it's the kind of thing that Matt Smith

1302
00:58:41.940 --> 00:58:42.900
does so well as well.

1303
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:46.079
Like after Billy's confronted Bennett and got the conversion.

1304
00:58:46.139 --> 00:58:49.320
There's this slight flicker on Billy's face on the doctor's face

1305
00:58:49.320 --> 00:58:55.079
of, and I'm in a room with one exit and someone who's killed 50

1306
00:58:55.079 --> 00:58:55.619
people.

1307
00:58:56.159 --> 00:58:58.079
I'm going to throw a chair.

1308
00:58:58.139 --> 00:58:59.460
Very much so.

1309
00:58:59.519 --> 00:59:02.579
But yeah, this lovely gilded spanner that I happened to have alien

1310
00:59:02.579 --> 00:59:03.719
spanner happened to have find it.

1311
00:59:03.780 --> 00:59:06.000
I wonder how much of Matt's performance, even though he watched

1312
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.000
Paddy, um, is based on Billio, isn't that?

1313
00:59:09.059 --> 00:59:12.599
Matt is just such a cognisant and natural actor that he manages to

1314
00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:13.139
get it right.

1315
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:17.639
It's really good So I will just say out there because we have we

1316
00:59:17.639 --> 00:59:21.179
have a lot more people listening to us than we personally know

1317
00:59:21.179 --> 00:59:22.139
which is lovely.

1318
00:59:22.199 --> 00:59:25.260
If you found us off the back of a new series and you haven't seen

1319
00:59:25.260 --> 00:59:28.679
much Hartnell, if you like Matt Smith's doctrine, especially the

1320
00:59:28.679 --> 00:59:29.219
Bells of St.

1321
00:59:29.219 --> 00:59:30.599
John, you'll really love the rescue.

1322
00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:31.739
Very good point, yeah.

1323
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:36.539
And I think I'll just go on to say Vicky, from the moment she

1324
00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:42.059
steps in, is just such a wonderful character for the audience

1325
00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:45.119
because her 1st scene is going, oh, we're going to be rescued.

1326
00:59:45.179 --> 00:59:48.360
Oh, how wonderful, and she just gets shot down, like, nowhere, not

1327
00:59:48.360 --> 00:59:51.179
you, a stupid girl, and you kind of go, no, actually, I really

1328
00:59:51.179 --> 00:59:51.480
like you.

1329
00:59:51.539 --> 00:59:55.980
You're in a desperate situation and instead of crying that, 0 my

1330
00:59:55.980 --> 00:59:57.780
god, there's rats and there's dirty water.

1331
00:59:58.199 --> 01:00:02.880
Sorry, that the comparison to Susan is unavoidable.

1332
01:00:02.940 --> 01:00:09.000
Instead of that, you had this character who Is, well, she is

1333
01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:10.920
downtrodden because she's constantly being told.

1334
01:00:10.980 --> 01:00:14.039
No, it's not like this, but she never loses her spirit and her

1335
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:17.880
hope in the situation. made the structure in the mould for her

1336
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:20.280
written for her in exactly the right way.

1337
01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:23.340
They had looked at the faults and errors of the previous season

1338
01:00:23.340 --> 01:00:27.239
and said, no, we're not going to give a young female companion to

1339
01:00:27.239 --> 01:00:29.699
be the same because we've recognised our mistakes.

1340
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:31.500
I think that's a kind of a tragedy.

1341
01:00:31.559 --> 01:00:34.500
When you look at what they should have done with Susan.

1342
01:00:34.559 --> 01:00:36.719
We can just see here again what they could have got right.

1343
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:41.639
Yeah, they didn't need to have someone like Susan as the juvenile

1344
01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:42.719
league female.

1345
01:00:42.780 --> 01:00:44.400
She could have met someone.

1346
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:44.699
Good.

1347
01:00:44.760 --> 01:00:47.579
But I think as Susan, she would have been great had she been

1348
01:00:47.579 --> 01:00:49.739
allowed, had they actually allowed the narrative, just like

1349
01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:51.420
Wyndham's chocky, if you like.

1350
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:54.420
It would have gone to his interesting fantasy levels and

1351
01:00:54.420 --> 01:00:58.500
supernatural writing, but Robert Aikman's another terrific British

1352
01:00:58.500 --> 01:01:02.099
writer we haven't mentioned yet, who turns out to be Mark Gaitis

1353
01:01:02.099 --> 01:01:05.280
and Sheer Smith's.

1354
01:01:05.400 --> 01:01:05.940
Reish Smith.

1355
01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:09.719
Reish Smith's favourite writers, and Neil Gaiman cites him as

1356
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:09.900
well.

1357
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:14.280
He's practically out of print, but he's up there with Poe and

1358
01:01:14.280 --> 01:01:19.380
again, with Wyndham, there's really great left of field, frog

1359
01:01:19.380 --> 01:01:24.119
brain, back of the head, scary stuff, writing this whole take you

1360
01:01:24.119 --> 01:01:25.500
out of your safety zone.

1361
01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:28.559
Pro characters into places you don't and just see what they do.

1362
01:01:28.679 --> 01:01:33.000
I'll put some notes on his writing at the end of this because

1363
01:01:33.000 --> 01:01:35.699
there are some that have recently been republished for his

1364
01:01:35.699 --> 01:01:35.940
stories.

1365
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:36.840
Oh, excellent.

1366
01:01:36.900 --> 01:01:37.500
Excellent.

1367
01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:42.300
Just before we move on, a couple more words about Ray Barrett's

1368
01:01:42.300 --> 01:01:42.599
performance.

1369
01:01:42.659 --> 01:01:46.860
We've already said that he's a really, as you said, Richard, a

1370
01:01:46.860 --> 01:01:48.179
really good foil for Billy.

1371
01:01:48.239 --> 01:01:52.860
But also, it turns out he remembers working on the show quite

1372
01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:53.579
fondly.

1373
01:01:53.699 --> 01:01:58.139
He appears on the DVD, giving an interview and talks about not

1374
01:01:58.139 --> 01:02:04.619
only working on the show, but how he came to the character, and

1375
01:02:04.619 --> 01:02:08.820
his thoughts on the character, which for an actor who was so busy

1376
01:02:08.820 --> 01:02:12.900
in the 1960s, especially with voice work on Jerry Anderson

1377
01:02:12.900 --> 01:02:16.619
productions, and very often in those productions, playing heroic

1378
01:02:16.619 --> 01:02:16.980
characters.

1379
01:02:17.039 --> 01:02:18.539
And ladies occasionally.

1380
01:02:18.599 --> 01:02:19.800
And ladies, occasionally.

1381
01:02:19.860 --> 01:02:20.760
Well, didn't.

1382
01:02:20.820 --> 01:02:22.860
Well, he plays Edith Evans.

1383
01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:25.440
Does he read it as a handbag?

1384
01:02:25.500 --> 01:02:27.179
The Duchess of Royston.

1385
01:02:27.239 --> 01:02:27.539
Yeah, yeah.

1386
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:29.280
Well, weren't we all?

1387
01:02:29.579 --> 01:02:36.659
But for him to, you know, remember 2 weeks of work he did on

1388
01:02:36.659 --> 01:02:37.320
Doctor Who.

1389
01:02:38.460 --> 01:02:43.260
On a 2 episode story straight after a Dalek story and straight

1390
01:02:43.260 --> 01:02:45.659
before the Romans, which we'll get onto in the next episode.

1391
01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:49.679
Yeah, for him to remember all that and speak so fondly about it

1392
01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:54.000
just speaks not only of his professionalism, but of that old

1393
01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:57.420
phrase, there's no such thing as small parts, only small actors.

1394
01:02:57.420 --> 01:03:01.079
And I think from that and from his performance here, he's

1395
01:03:01.079 --> 01:03:02.159
definitely not a small actor.

1396
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:04.260
Well, he's no longer with us, Paul Ray.

1397
01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:04.800
Sally, yeah.

1398
01:03:04.860 --> 01:03:06.300
Yes, he passed away last year, I think.

1399
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:07.199
It was fairly recently.

1400
01:03:07.260 --> 01:03:11.579
Not many clips of him in the Coquillian outfit on Channel 7 news

1401
01:03:11.579 --> 01:03:12.539
though, when they announced it.

1402
01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:14.639
Funny that. lost opportunity.

1403
01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:18.900
Well, I think that's all we have time for this episode.

1404
01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:20.039
Yep.

1405
01:03:20.099 --> 01:03:23.340
The engines are going, so it's time for us to head off, but we

1406
01:03:23.340 --> 01:03:28.800
will be back next week, looking at the Romans, the web planet, and

1407
01:03:28.800 --> 01:03:30.059
the crusade.

1408
01:03:30.119 --> 01:03:31.619
So do come back.

1409
01:03:31.679 --> 01:03:34.079
Push up your swords and togers for that.

1410
01:03:34.139 --> 01:03:35.159
Yes, indeed.

1411
01:03:35.340 --> 01:03:37.920
Gentlemen, anything you'd like to say?

1412
01:03:39.659 --> 01:03:45.239
Before I Before I cast us into the hall of judgement.

1413
01:03:45.300 --> 01:03:46.800
No, I have nothing.

1414
01:03:46.860 --> 01:03:51.420
I'm going to see you in about 5 minutes, my time, in a week's your

1415
01:03:51.420 --> 01:03:54.780
time. step sideways in time and see you via another piece of

1416
01:03:54.780 --> 01:03:55.079
code.

1417
01:03:55.139 --> 01:03:59.579
And I'm going to be miniaturised, although at 5 foot four. very

1418
01:03:59.579 --> 01:04:00.900
difficult for anyone to notice.

1419
01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:02.400
Good night, everybody.

1420
01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:03.300
Night, everyone.

1421
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:11.039
You have been listening to quite your entire team, Nathan

1422
01:04:11.039 --> 01:04:12.960
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1423
01:04:13.019 --> 01:04:16.260
This episode, Donan Cribbons and Vinyl, was recorded on Sunday, the

1424
01:04:16.260 --> 01:04:17.820
4th of July in Sydney, Australia.

1425
01:04:17.880 --> 01:04:21.119
The next episode will be released on Sunday the 27th of July.

1426
01:04:21.179 --> 01:04:24.119
You can find us online at flights your entirety.com, flights your

1427
01:04:24.119 --> 01:04:27.420
entirety on Facebook and iTunes or FTE podcast on Twitter.

1428
01:04:27.480 --> 01:04:28.860
One day we shall come back.

1429
01:04:28.920 --> 01:04:30.780
Next Sunday as it happens.

1430
01:04:33.840 --> 01:04:34.980
Anything else?

1431
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:36.539
Anything else people want to say about the rescue?

1432
01:04:36.599 --> 01:04:37.559
Let me look for my notes.

1433
01:04:38.280 --> 01:04:40.019
And cough.

1434
01:04:40.079 --> 01:04:45.420
All the Didoians we seem seem to be men, they do.

1435
01:04:45.480 --> 01:04:47.099
Did Rod find that homoerotic?

1436
01:04:47.159 --> 01:04:48.239
No, he didn't even mention it.