WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:10:32

1
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:37.079
Hello and welcome back to the all-new, all-different weekly flight through entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who's qualified to work on tailors.

2
00:00:37.140 --> 00:00:37.920
I'm Brendan.

3
00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:39.719
I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

4
00:00:39.780 --> 00:00:43.740
I'm a lovely swirling Basque skirt of bubble wrap for this.

5
00:00:44.460 --> 00:00:47.100
Careful, Richard, we may want to populate.

6
00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:51.840
Oh, dear, that's terrible.

7
00:00:51.899 --> 00:00:52.859
I just got it.

8
00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.020
We mean...

9
00:00:55.560 --> 00:01:03.899
It can only be time to travel into the far future, past the solar flares, turn right at Earth's moon, headed...

10
00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:11.579
Todds had to go on the helmet regulator. to go on the helmet regulator and we're heading at a dizzying speed towards space station Nerva.

11
00:01:21.480 --> 00:01:23.459
Mark in space.

12
00:01:23.519 --> 00:01:24.900
What do you think?

13
00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:26.760
Pile of crap, really, isn't it?

14
00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:28.379
Oh, yeah, definitely not.

15
00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:31.379
What were those 13.600000 viewers thinking?

16
00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:31.859
Crazy.

17
00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:32.579
Exactly.

18
00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:34.200
Was ITV on strike again?

19
00:01:34.260 --> 00:01:37.079
No, no. they weren't, were they?

20
00:01:37.140 --> 00:01:38.459
They weren't episode one.

21
00:01:38.579 --> 00:01:44.939
The whole thing is glorious, except I will criticise Noah's acting, but we'll get back to that in a little while.

22
00:01:45.000 --> 00:01:50.459
Look, episode one is just 25 minutes of absolute of our favourite people.

23
00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:51.420
Glory.

24
00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:54.359
Yes, the 3 of them are just phenomenal.

25
00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:55.140
Three who rule.

26
00:01:55.200 --> 00:02:01.019
We, of course, get another point of view shot from the monster, just like in the previous story, that's early on in the peace.

27
00:02:01.079 --> 00:02:06.599
But besides that, it's Tom, Liz, and Ian and a couple of voices.

28
00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:10.680
How long has it been since we've had just the regulars?

29
00:02:10.740 --> 00:02:12.719
Is it the Dylest one?

30
00:02:12.780 --> 00:02:14.039
You could argue mind robber.

31
00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:15.840
We do have the voice of Emirus James in that one.

32
00:02:15.900 --> 00:02:17.340
Well, you got the voice of Peter.

33
00:02:17.340 --> 00:02:18.900
You got the voice of Peter Tottenham.

34
00:02:18.900 --> 00:02:19.979
And Gladys.

35
00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:20.580
What's her name?

36
00:02:20.639 --> 00:02:21.900
Gladys Emanuel.

37
00:02:21.960 --> 00:02:23.939
No, that's not.

38
00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:25.259
She's fabulous.

39
00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:27.599
Gladys, the High Minister.

40
00:02:27.659 --> 00:02:27.960
Yes.

41
00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:30.060
She was born in 1894.

42
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:31.379
That actress.

43
00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:32.099
Oh my goodness.

44
00:02:32.159 --> 00:02:34.139
Yeah, I totally looked her up.

45
00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:35.219
She's terrific.

46
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:36.180
But I think you're right.

47
00:02:36.240 --> 00:02:38.460
I think it's very rarely happened before.

48
00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:44.520
Yeah, it's really just for this episode, mind robber episode one and Edge of Destruction.

49
00:02:44.580 --> 00:02:47.580
Doesn't this show us how to do a studio bound story?

50
00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:50.099
Claustrophobia is my flavour du jour.

51
00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:52.979
I'm just on the edge of my seat throughout that entire episode.

52
00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:54.180
The lighting. the sense.

53
00:02:54.240 --> 00:03:08.520
And you can understand why 9.4 tuned into episode one and 13.6 million, which becomes the highest rated episode of Doctor Who up to that and 5th of the week, which is actually the record for the entire run of the original series.

54
00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:09.120
Wow.

55
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.039
But episode two, episode two.

56
00:03:11.099 --> 00:03:12.360
It was at as high as Web Planet?

57
00:03:12.419 --> 00:03:13.379
Higher.

58
00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:13.800
Really?

59
00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:16.259
The highest episode on Web Planet was 13.5.

60
00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:16.979
Amazing.

61
00:03:16.979 --> 00:03:20.039
And I think Billy's highest placed episode was 7th.

62
00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:28.139
What we have here, instead of people to interact with, and monsters at this point is the environment, like a hostile environment.

63
00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:29.939
And Tom obviously...

64
00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:35.699
But so you've got the fact that there's no air, you've got doors mysteriously opening and closing.

65
00:03:35.759 --> 00:03:40.500
You've got that sentinel thing that sort of fires, bolts at people and all that.

66
00:03:40.620 --> 00:03:41.400
The deadly tanning lamp.

67
00:03:41.460 --> 00:03:45.960
Yeah, and then you get you get Sarah involved in the, you know, the chronogenic process.

68
00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:55.860
And there's a kind of physicality to the environment, which Russell rips off in New Earth later where he gets some of the doctor and rose wet in the lift.

69
00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:56.580
You know what I mean?

70
00:03:56.639 --> 00:03:58.199
Harry loses his shoes.

71
00:03:58.259 --> 00:03:59.219
They go through it.

72
00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.259
They carry his shoes beautifully.

73
00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:03.240
It's so wonderful.

74
00:04:03.300 --> 00:04:05.099
Harry's so clumsy.

75
00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:08.639
He's been playing with the helmet regulator.

76
00:04:08.699 --> 00:04:10.020
He presses the button.

77
00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:15.000
He presses the button that gets Sarah trapped in the other room.

78
00:04:15.060 --> 00:04:20.579
He says he doesn't like sliding doors because he got his nose caught in one at Pompey Barracks.

79
00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:24.000
He was in the navy like at all.

80
00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:27.240
I just adore that.

81
00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:31.139
The whole sequence when they're underneath the table...

82
00:04:31.139 --> 00:04:32.040
You see their bottoms.

83
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:36.060
Of course, yes, that's my abortion.

84
00:04:36.120 --> 00:04:38.459
But, you know, just talking about, you know, different things.

85
00:04:38.579 --> 00:04:39.600
It was such a good scene.

86
00:04:39.660 --> 00:04:41.459
They did it again in towns of wing China.

87
00:04:41.519 --> 00:04:46.319
Yes, this is true But I just like the way Holmes puts in, like the doctor just pulls out things out of his pockets.

88
00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:49.980
This time it's like the cricket ball, which just, you know, gets dusted.

89
00:04:50.100 --> 00:04:55.139
There's some lovely little lines here for nerdy lads like we were in science-y stuff.

90
00:04:55.199 --> 00:04:58.259
Okay, just when you're 8 or 9.

91
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.639
Just the references to organic matter and didn't you find that?

92
00:05:02.699 --> 00:05:05.040
The science is quite nice and tight in this for a child.

93
00:05:05.100 --> 00:05:07.259
It's something that Holmes has always done.

94
00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:14.699
And you even do get it in robot, where the dialogue is vastly more sophisticated than when Terrence is the script than it is.

95
00:05:14.759 --> 00:05:16.620
So there's a lot of clever words.

96
00:05:16.680 --> 00:05:19.439
Well, we will get to that because there is.

97
00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:21.600
But, um...

98
00:05:21.660 --> 00:05:26.819
But he just writes cleverer, wittier dialogue. really nicely done.

99
00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:37.319
And he plays, he has a musician's ear for sound because he plays with the flow and the dip thongs and the alliterations and assonants and just the rhythms of toils lines, especially they're beautiful.

100
00:05:37.379 --> 00:05:38.759
Can we talk about that speech?

101
00:05:38.819 --> 00:05:43.560
The big, big, indomitable speech where he's in the cryogenic chamber.

102
00:05:43.620 --> 00:05:48.300
I think he does something different from any of his predecessors, and something vastly different from pertweis.

103
00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:57.720
So if Perto is asked to make a speech about human beings, it's about how they can blow up the world and they probably will and make lovely cheese and very good wineries.

104
00:05:57.779 --> 00:06:04.920
But you know how he's always negative about human beings and their capacity for destruction and the weapons that they create and pollution and all of that.

105
00:06:04.980 --> 00:06:08.759
But here you get Tom saying how amazing humanity is.

106
00:06:08.819 --> 00:06:12.180
Human beings are quite my favourite species. that as well.

107
00:06:12.240 --> 00:06:15.240
It's a really young man doctor, isn't it?

108
00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:17.220
With all of the vigour of youth.

109
00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:22.199
The thing that never gets mentioned is that that's the important theme of this story.

110
00:06:22.259 --> 00:06:25.980
The thing that saves everyone in the end is Noah's humanity.

111
00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:27.060
Do you know what I mean?

112
00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.040
It's humanity that solves the problem here.

113
00:06:29.100 --> 00:06:31.439
We're up against this sort of terrible threat.

114
00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:36.540
So that speech isn't just giving Tom something to do.

115
00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:38.339
And obviously this story does that.

116
00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:40.319
Holmes very clearly is credited.

117
00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:46.259
They've thrown out John Lucarotti's script because no one can contact him on the boat on the Mediterranean.

118
00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:53.339
And also just the budget to make what he wrote would have taken up all the money in the whole series.

119
00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:55.560
Wasn't it some casino or something or no?

120
00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:57.959
No, no, that's coming up later.

121
00:06:58.019 --> 00:07:03.480
But, yeah, no, this one is fungi that invade, and there's 2 different kinds of fungi.

122
00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:14.040
There's the disembodied just bodies who do all the bluster work and then there's the floating heads, the cherubim and seraphim, who float about and do the intelligence thing and Tom dispatches them in episode 4 with a golf club.

123
00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:16.439
I kind of wish we'd seen that That sounds great.

124
00:07:16.500 --> 00:07:18.360
And season 16.

125
00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:24.000
He had also written each script with an individual title because he thought the Doctor Who still did that.

126
00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:30.120
So the title of the 1st episode, I think, was Puffball and the last episode where Tom dispatches them with a golf club was golf ball.

127
00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:32.819
So each episode was something bold.

128
00:07:32.939 --> 00:07:36.240
No, I think it would have been great. a totally different thing.

129
00:07:36.300 --> 00:07:39.959
They kept calling TARDIS TARDIS instead of the TARDIS.

130
00:07:40.620 --> 00:07:41.040
I like tar.

131
00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:47.339
Speaking of the Tartars, Harry walks out of the Tartar series, and you never see Harry inside the Tartars, an entire movie.

132
00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:48.060
No, you never do.

133
00:07:48.060 --> 00:07:51.600
You don't see the you don't see the TARDIS interior set this whole season.

134
00:07:51.660 --> 00:07:52.560
You don't see it.

135
00:07:52.680 --> 00:07:53.220
I like that, though.

136
00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:57.839
Yeah, you don't see it between Death of the Daleks's last time, see it. and we won't see it again until Planet of Evil.

137
00:07:57.899 --> 00:08:01.920
Can we get onto the theme that I was mentioning with Jacques La Khan and Hinchcliffe's go?

138
00:08:01.980 --> 00:08:08.939
He was a psychologist and psychiatrist and a French theoretician. ontological threat of isolation and claustrophobia.

139
00:08:09.000 --> 00:08:11.699
So, and it was a deliberate port ploy of Henchcliff.

140
00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:13.319
He said, what's the day of sex Makina?

141
00:08:13.379 --> 00:08:14.160
What's the safety point?

142
00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:17.279
The whole reason that we've always felt safe with the doctor.

143
00:08:17.339 --> 00:08:22.680
He can always get back to the TARDIS, get rid of the TARDS. and isolate Sarah Don't.

144
00:08:22.740 --> 00:08:26.879
Give the children threats that children are absolutely terrified of.

145
00:08:26.939 --> 00:08:28.560
Children don't mind monsters as such.

146
00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.199
We kind of like the bogey man, the building.

147
00:08:31.259 --> 00:08:34.620
We know that everything else around us is safe, so therefore it doesn't pose a threat.

148
00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.379
Therefore, take away the front door to our house.

149
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:39.000
And isolate us.

150
00:08:39.059 --> 00:08:43.440
Sarah is always getting in a position of claustrophobia and isolation and being separated.

151
00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:50.820
That terrifies children, being separated from the parents is, according to Inchcliffe, and according to Lacan, the thing that will most terrify.

152
00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:53.580
And when she gets put into cryogenesis.

153
00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:55.139
Again, is she gonna get out of that?

154
00:08:55.200 --> 00:08:57.240
Do you really don't think she will, do you?

155
00:08:57.299 --> 00:09:00.299
And, you know, the doctor and Harry have to obviously rescue him.

156
00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.840
But Elizabeth Sutton's acting through that entire sequence.

157
00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:07.200
It's just so good when she gets put under it.

158
00:09:07.259 --> 00:09:08.340
Have you seen Silent Green?

159
00:09:08.460 --> 00:09:10.019
Is anyone here actually seen it?

160
00:09:10.019 --> 00:09:13.139
I was lucky enough to see it on the big screen at one of the film festivals.

161
00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.700
It is that scene entirely.

162
00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:18.779
But in that case, it's because of climate change and because of overpopulation.

163
00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:19.500
There's no food.

164
00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:23.340
People go to the big centre where there's the lovely music and are put to death.

165
00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:27.000
You know, in a way, exactly the same as that with the same music.

166
00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:27.720
Absolutely.

167
00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:33.120
So the audience watching that, it was a big film that had come out a couple of years. really thought Sarah wasn't going to get transported.

168
00:09:33.179 --> 00:09:33.539
She was gone.

169
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:46.799
And of course, at this time, this laden herself was thinking that once her contract was up, she'd move on, because she had seen, this is actually the 3rd story made with Tom Baker because they made Sontaran experiment first.

170
00:09:46.860 --> 00:09:53.879
We'll talk more about that when we talk about Santarian experiment, but she had seen how well Ian Martin and Tom Baker were getting on.

171
00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:55.320
She knew there was a new producer.

172
00:09:55.379 --> 00:09:57.419
So she started thinking, you know what, Barry cast me.

173
00:09:57.480 --> 00:10:00.120
The way she puts it was, I was Barry's girl.

174
00:10:00.179 --> 00:10:03.899
And I thought to myself, Philip is probably going to want to find his own girl.

175
00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:05.039
Ian's Ian is.

176
00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:06.840
He didn't fill them.

177
00:10:07.320 --> 00:10:09.659
And it did work out an awful lot, you know, Ian Walter.

178
00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:10.320
No, he did.

179
00:10:10.379 --> 00:10:13.980
Yeah, partially because of his diabetes and he had been...

180
00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:15.179
And the fact that he's just...

181
00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:16.919
Well, he had actually been...

182
00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:22.259
Until a few weeks before he got the part of Harry Sullivan, he'd been incredibly ill.

183
00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:23.519
He hadn't worked for over a year.

184
00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:25.019
Yeah, exactly.

185
00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:25.559
Exactly.

186
00:10:25.620 --> 00:10:30.299
And so he started compensating by being really into his fitness.

187
00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:34.139
Liz Laden says the last time she met him about a year before he died.

188
00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.500
He had become quite muscular.

189
00:10:37.500 --> 00:10:41.399
And she sort of thought to herself, I will include pictures to this.

190
00:10:41.460 --> 00:10:47.340
Well, she thought she sort of remembers thinking, you know, I know he's got his diabetes in his health problems.

191
00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:49.379
Is it healthy for someone to be this huge?

192
00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:53.100
And she tells the story about how he came around to see Sadie when she was a baby.

193
00:10:53.100 --> 00:10:57.720
And so you've got this huge Ian Martyr, completely unsure of how to hold a baby.

194
00:10:57.779 --> 00:11:00.840
And that was the last time she saw him and that's her biting memory.

195
00:11:00.899 --> 00:11:02.700
Isn't it great that they all gone on so well?

196
00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.460
And Tom and Ian were writing behind the scenes.

197
00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.580
So for this, so was this the story where she bonded with Tom?

198
00:11:08.639 --> 00:11:09.600
Is that?

199
00:11:09.659 --> 00:11:16.019
Well, she'd already bonded with Tom, but she was beginning to wonder if she was going to be a spare part.

200
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:17.159
She said this to Hinchcliffe, didn't she?

201
00:11:17.220 --> 00:11:19.740
She said this to Hinchcliffe, who turned around and said, no, we think you're wonderful.

202
00:11:19.799 --> 00:11:23.159
Actually, we're not going to renew Ian because you and Tom are so good together.

203
00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:25.080
It's kind of weird, isn't it?

204
00:11:25.139 --> 00:11:32.759
Because the natural pairing in season 12 is Tom and Ian and Sarah gets to, but I guess Sarah is strong enough to hold her own plotline.

205
00:11:32.820 --> 00:11:33.480
Exactly.

206
00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:33.720
Exactly.

207
00:11:33.779 --> 00:11:35.279
It comes up time and time again.

208
00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:42.960
She is isolated from those 2 for a couple of episodes and then forced to be her normal resilient independent self, you know, and get herself out of property.

209
00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:43.320
Exactly.

210
00:11:43.379 --> 00:11:45.360
And she's putting jeopardy a lot more.

211
00:11:45.419 --> 00:11:51.779
I mean, I think a lot of times people think that this is the girly season of Sarah, but I think Sarah is off by herself in jeopardy.

212
00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:54.720
So she's actually in a lot more dire straits without the doctor.

213
00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:56.279
Yeah, she really should.

214
00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:57.000
But she's still as strong.

215
00:11:57.059 --> 00:12:01.740
Yeah, people say that this season isn't as strong for Sarah James feminism.

216
00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:05.940
But I think what this season does with the feminism of the character is.

217
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:24.600
It shows it through action rather than through words, because season 11, there was a lot of talk about feminism and examples of Sarah being independent, whereas when Sarah's with Tom, she doesn't, she doesn't stand there saying, oh, girls are better than boys or girls are equal to boys.

218
00:12:24.659 --> 00:12:28.559
She just gets on with it with the possible exception of one scene in this story.

219
00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.139
Can I say that I'm not sure that that's true?

220
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:38.639
And one of the things that is going to come up now that Bob Holmes has probably taken over in Philip Hinchcliffe has properly taken over the season started in earnest.

221
00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:54.360
I felt a bit anxious about the tone of this story and the subsequent stories of season 12 because Sarah is so frequently placed in just horrifying peril and tortured, like she's tortured several times.

222
00:12:54.419 --> 00:12:59.279
And I'm there going, why would she ever agree to get back in the Tartar?

223
00:12:59.340 --> 00:13:00.600
Why would she ever do that?

224
00:13:00.659 --> 00:13:07.440
You know, we've said before that we think that Sarah does a great job of brave and scared at the same time.

225
00:13:07.500 --> 00:13:12.299
Here, I think she's called upon to be scared a lot more than she has in the past.

226
00:13:12.419 --> 00:13:16.500
And, you know, scared in close-up and all of that sort of thing.

227
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.779
And I actually think that that's a little bit problematic.

228
00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.860
The upside is the stakes are high. things are really scary.

229
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:28.080
You know, the stories are really strong, but I think it has a detrimental effect on her character.

230
00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:31.980
See, I disagree because she's into it.

231
00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:34.620
Well, you kind of wonder, don't you?

232
00:13:34.679 --> 00:13:42.720
But it shows how strong her character is because she's facing far greater adversity than she's ever faced before, but she doesn't give up.

233
00:13:42.779 --> 00:14:01.019
She has one moment of panic in this story, which is turned into an, quote unquote, hilarious tristies on the nature of you girls think you're tough, but really, which is all reverse psychology and, oh, how we laughed.

234
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:11.100
That, I think, is very problematic when she's in the tunnel and the doctor says, oh, you girls, you just lie there blubbing when there's real work to be done, which, of course, gets Sarah out swinging and fighting and she takes them.

235
00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:12.000
She slaps him.

236
00:14:12.059 --> 00:14:12.659
Yes, yes.

237
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:13.559
Yeah, yeah, which is great.

238
00:14:13.620 --> 00:14:33.419
But in those later stories, which we'll talk about in more detail, like in, Son Tarin experiment, when she is being tortured and in Genesis of the Daleks, when she's under this extreme agony, but her reaction is don't tell him anything, doctor, you know, don't don't pike.

239
00:14:33.480 --> 00:14:35.580
Yeah, don't tell him, Pike.

240
00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:44.879
But I think I think that's the duress you put your characters under cannot in itself strengthen or weaken them. the character's reactions to it.

241
00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:47.879
No, no, but I'm in the way the characters portrayed. you know what I mean?

242
00:14:47.940 --> 00:14:48.600
On a different level.

243
00:14:48.659 --> 00:14:50.460
It's not that Sarah is a weak character.

244
00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:59.700
I think that you're presenting this person who's being tortured weak to weak and gets to spend a lot of time being really, really frightened and upset and screaming and stuff.

245
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:02.039
It doesn't hold for a true person.

246
00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:05.519
Yes, it just like it just makes her less real as a character.

247
00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:15.299
No, I don't think any other companion up to this point has had the terrible couple of weeks that Sarah...

248
00:15:15.419 --> 00:15:17.039
But you know, it hasn't happened to us.

249
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:18.179
No, no, it had to happen.

250
00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:18.899
It is about.

251
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:26.039
The journey we're about to embark about. really quite harrowing for all of them because, I mean, the doctor and Harry fall down a giant ravine.

252
00:15:26.100 --> 00:15:27.720
The doctor gets shot.

253
00:15:27.779 --> 00:15:30.000
Harry gets half eaten by a giant clown.

254
00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:34.500
Harry gets Harry gets porridge creeping up.

255
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:37.080
Southwester.

256
00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:40.019
No, we need to we need to keep our powder dry for those toys.

257
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:41.879
Can I talk theological?

258
00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:45.179
One of the things I think that lifts this story is the monster.

259
00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:49.799
And I think the we're, and even though they're kind of crappy and polystyrene and stuff.

260
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:51.299
No, though, they're crappy.

261
00:15:51.299 --> 00:15:52.440
No, they are anyway.

262
00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:53.879
Why haven't we had a toy?

263
00:15:53.940 --> 00:15:59.580
Aldawar, if you're listening, Tony Bird and I demand a we're in 5 interaction for you.

264
00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:03.659
They're not as they're not as solid as I remember them too.

265
00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:04.320
They're terrible.

266
00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:06.720
Look, but fortunately they don't appear until episode four.

267
00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:12.960
And the little the little puppety ones that go on along the outside of the...

268
00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:15.539
But I think the grubs are pretty good.

269
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.000
But the thing that really makes them frightening is this.

270
00:16:18.059 --> 00:16:27.480
There's a traditional argument for the existence of God that runs something like organisms fearfully and wonderfully made.

271
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:36.240
They're incredibly complicated and that complexity can only be down to a created god being responsible for their existence.

272
00:16:36.299 --> 00:16:41.639
And the most famous statement of this was William Paley, who published in 1801.

273
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:46.200
And he talks about the watchman, you know, the watch, you come across a watch on the beach.

274
00:16:46.259 --> 00:16:52.379
It's such a, you know, beautiful, perfect thing, you must conclude that a watchmaker is behind it.

275
00:16:52.740 --> 00:17:01.500
But in episode two, I think, Tom talks about the Yumen's wasp and compares the Wirren's life cycle to that.

276
00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:10.799
And there's another wasp, the Ichneuman wasp, which is very similar in that it lays its eggs in a paralysed body.

277
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:14.819
So it stings an animal, like a grub or something.

278
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:27.240
It lays its eggs in the grub and then the larvae eat their way out through the living grub so that the larvae have fresh meat to eat when they're hatched.

279
00:17:27.299 --> 00:17:44.819
And theologians in the 19th century, when they're kind of acquainted with this life cycle, begin to think, you know, along the opposite lines that a god, a good god, couldn't be responsible for the creation of an animal who's reproductive cycle was like that.

280
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:55.740
And Darwin himself, who is losing his faith, talks about the Ichneumon Wasp, and how it's incompatible with the idea of a beneficent god.

281
00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:57.539
And that's the monster here.

282
00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:58.619
Do you know what I mean?

283
00:17:58.680 --> 00:18:07.680
The threat isn't, you know, that someone in a green fibreglass suit is going to come in with a ray gun and sort of threaten you and push you over.

284
00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:12.059
The threat is that you're going to be eaten alive, body and soul.

285
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:24.539
And so we've had bases under siege before, but we've never, ever had a monster as utterly, and as you said before, just like onto logically terrifying as this.

286
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.779
I'm terrified just after you're saying all of that.

287
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:29.400
You know where this comes from, don't you?

288
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:30.299
The J.

289
00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:35.220
McConnell 1962 paper on memory transference. is thought to be largely chemical.

290
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:37.019
Chemically.

291
00:18:37.079 --> 00:18:38.579
So that's how they can eat dune's memory.

292
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:40.319
There was a theory.

293
00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:47.160
It's the 962 paper memory transfer through cannibalism in planetarians, which has definitely got to be a must read.

294
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:48.480
But the thinking was.

295
00:18:48.539 --> 00:18:50.099
And it's not just a one-off.

296
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:53.220
It imbues so much SF and popular thinking.

297
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.599
He chopped up earthworms.

298
00:18:54.660 --> 00:18:55.799
He taught them to run through a maze.

299
00:18:55.859 --> 00:19:00.119
He chopped them up, fed them to the next generation of earthworms, who could traverse the maze.

300
00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:02.880
He said without any preponderance.

301
00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:03.779
They just got straight through.

302
00:19:03.900 --> 00:19:07.200
However, yeah, and it's I remember hearing about it at school.

303
00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:09.059
Yeah, I think I remember reading about it.

304
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:09.420
Yeah.

305
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:09.779
Furkey.

306
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:11.640
No one's ever been able to repeat the experiment again.

307
00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:12.839
You tried at home, kids.

308
00:19:12.900 --> 00:19:15.299
This is no, please don't.

309
00:19:15.299 --> 00:19:17.819
This is Peter, don't call this. fine.

310
00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:24.000
But there is that thing of the threat is so intimate, but that seems to produce, and I love that Tom plays up the alieness.

311
00:19:24.059 --> 00:19:26.279
He loves that creature when he comes upon it.

312
00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:27.660
Look at the way...

313
00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.059
Look at the way he caresses its thorax.

314
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.519
You're a very beautiful warrior.

315
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:40.440
But yeah, he really is involved in this and Harry is kind of horrible, but Tom is just amazed by the entire process of it.

316
00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:43.440
In fact, one of the genes, I think, because of his reaction.

317
00:19:43.559 --> 00:19:53.640
One of the genius things about Tommy in this story is how much he's enjoying himself. particularly when he goes to do the gypsy eye brain thing.

318
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:55.740
Thank you, God.

319
00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:13.920
It's something that is so different. in contrast to pertway in that he actually talks about this is going to be really dangerous and everything and this has to happen and then I'm the only one who can do it and he sort of smiles and he takes so much joy in the fact that he's about to do something that's absolutely so dangerous.

320
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.019
And it does it without undermining it.

321
00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:17.579
He does it without making you feel safe.

322
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.119
And Sarah says something like, but doctor, that's horribly dangerous.

323
00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:22.619
I know, 2 leads broken.

324
00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:33.299
We're talking about the upside of that, but the Tom doctor is actually the darkest doctor we've ever had, and we didn't cover this in robot, but watch that scene again with Todd's toy tank. when it rolls up.

325
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.539
We all get so bamboozled by the cuteness of the tank.

326
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:37.559
We forget what Tom says.

327
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:40.440
He knows what his disintegrated gun will do.

328
00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:46.440
He knows how the properties work and what's going to happen to the blokes inside the Tonka tank.

329
00:20:46.500 --> 00:20:47.519
And what does he do?

330
00:20:47.579 --> 00:20:49.680
He doesn't say brigadier, get them out, pull them out.

331
00:20:49.740 --> 00:20:51.539
He puts his bloody feet.

332
00:20:51.599 --> 00:20:52.559
Up on Bessie.

333
00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:54.180
She doesn't get many lines in this one either, top.

334
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:56.160
Puts your feet. aggressively.

335
00:20:56.220 --> 00:21:04.079
Puts his feet up on the windscreen, puts his hands behind his head and watches the carnage that's about doing...

336
00:21:04.140 --> 00:21:06.240
He allows these boys to go to their doom.

337
00:21:06.299 --> 00:21:08.279
It's a very dark doctor, this one.

338
00:21:08.339 --> 00:21:09.299
And speaking of which...

339
00:21:09.299 --> 00:21:11.160
He's been telling the brigadier for 5 years.

340
00:21:11.220 --> 00:21:12.839
You can't just shoot at everything.

341
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:16.200
And I think in this new inclination, he's just like, no, I've told you once.

342
00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:19.619
That's the most horrifying moment, and Tom keeps that horror up.

343
00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:25.680
And of course, in this story, all the male costars all get killed off.

344
00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:27.299
God, they do too, don't they?

345
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:28.980
Yeah, we have our 2nd woman for the year.

346
00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:30.660
Oh, she's magnificent.

347
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:31.859
Segway of three, Wendy Williams.

348
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:35.039
Or as Tom Beck says, when...

349
00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:39.180
Did you know the character was written as a Haitian?

350
00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:41.640
She was meant to be a black Haitian.

351
00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:47.819
Because the voodoo concepts in the original, the walking zombie concepts, I should say, in the original script or much higher.

352
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.940
In fact, there's a line in... it would be great if shipping black.

353
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:51.720
It would be so interesting.

354
00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:56.160
Well, there is a line in Tom's speech where he says all colours, all creeds, all differences.

355
00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:57.779
Thank you.

356
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.920
Why couldn't we have Carmen Monroe back?

357
00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:04.319
Why couldn't we have had Faria back?

358
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:06.180
She have been amazing as Vira.

359
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:07.259
Not that Wendy's not.

360
00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:08.099
Oh, yeah.

361
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:10.440
And she does these lovely lines of, oh, a joke.

362
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:13.980
There was not much joke and laughter.

363
00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:15.299
I just love her.

364
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:16.980
She's just glorious.

365
00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.559
I can just sit there and walk. gorgeous.

366
00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:20.099
But her.

367
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:24.660
And what's wonderful is we've slightly gone back to Troughton in that.

368
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:25.920
We've got our base under siege.

369
00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:28.079
We've got our intransigent base commander.

370
00:22:28.140 --> 00:22:28.980
Yes, it's here.

371
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:29.819
Yes, yes, yes.

372
00:22:29.819 --> 00:22:34.680
We've already seen that his 2nd in command, Vira, is calm, she is capable.

373
00:22:34.740 --> 00:22:36.000
She knows exactly what she's doing.

374
00:22:36.059 --> 00:22:39.900
She listens to the doctor's reasoned arguments with an open mind.

375
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:45.539
You know, she doesn't immediately trust the doctor, but John does. distrust him just because he's a stranger.

376
00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:48.599
Whereas all the boys, well, the boys in charge, can't do that at all.

377
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:51.240
Yeah, it's a very subtle performance too.

378
00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:59.460
And there's a moment where I think it is slightly too subtle, but she goes from very distant and cold and she doesn't sort of react to them.

379
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.059
But don't forget that she gets the final moment of the episode.

380
00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.000
Yeah, that she's a little thing. smile.

381
00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:06.779
She smiles.

382
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:08.460
You know, she really...

383
00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:09.240
Yes, yeah.

384
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:10.559
She could have gone in the Tardis as well.

385
00:23:10.619 --> 00:23:11.460
She ate the chilli bag.

386
00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:15.839
On the commentary, which I think is Tom Liz Sladen and Philip Hinchcliffe.

387
00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:17.220
When that ending comes up.

388
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:23.220
Tom just bursts out laughing and over the credits, they say, oh, God, all 3 of them say, God, that's a wonderful final shot.

389
00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:26.160
That's amazing because she's going to go on and wake everyone up.

390
00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:27.000
That's great.

391
00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:30.240
They were all just raving and Phil Pinchcliffe's like, I forgot we did that.

392
00:23:30.299 --> 00:23:31.019
It's amazing.

393
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:36.299
But in the meantime, and this is an artful segue into another topic, Todd.

394
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:40.440
In the meantime, we learned that she's married to Noah.

395
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:43.619
And she pair bonded, weren't they?

396
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:44.339
Pair bonded.

397
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:45.180
How romantic.

398
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:50.700
Yeah, they had heterosexual marriage in the, you know, 100,000th century, whatever it is.

399
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:54.420
So, there's about to be a few women who aren't here.

400
00:23:54.480 --> 00:24:02.099
But we do get these subtle reactions to Noah's dialogue all the way through.

401
00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:15.900
And that terrible, horrible confrontation scene where you've got mutant Noah covered in bubble wrap in episode three, which is cunt because it's, I mean, it's pretty horrible as it stands, but it must have been originally more horrible.

402
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.140
Can we just outline that for the listener who might not?

403
00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:27.539
So what happened is this is the scene where Noah, his torso, half his head is covered in the weir and...

404
00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:31.140
Oh, it's actually great makeup. and yes, it's bubble wrap, but nobody knew what bubble wrap was.

405
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:31.740
Moving on.

406
00:24:31.740 --> 00:24:32.700
Moving on.

407
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:44.279
This is the scene where Noah accesses the we're in race memory to tell the doctor and Byra information about the wearer and he says things like they were in the darkness rushing through.

408
00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:49.200
The door closes, he drops his gun, virus says we are pair bonded for the new line.

409
00:24:49.259 --> 00:24:52.200
And it's a really kind of, it's a ropey...

410
00:24:52.259 --> 00:25:03.359
It's a really weird cut because Noah was meant to go on and become more and more ranting instead of saying the Wiranah, he starts saying, I am, we are, and the makeup.

411
00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:11.519
If you look at the makeup on his face, there is a weird join between the wear and half of the space and the human half because it was meant to break away and ooze.

412
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:13.559
And they did that and they shot it.

413
00:25:13.619 --> 00:25:19.140
And his ranting hysteria and that breaking open, Philip Hinchcliffe deemed too horrific.

414
00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:21.599
Because Philip Hinchcliffe is now in complete charge of the program.

415
00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:28.440
And so they just decided to cut to Wendy Williams saying we were pair bonded for the new life together.

416
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:31.859
So that awful scene ends with her announcing that the 2 of them were married.

417
00:25:31.980 --> 00:25:34.680
And it's such a shame we don't get to see that.

418
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:36.960
No, really.

419
00:25:37.019 --> 00:25:37.619
I think it would have been.

420
00:25:37.619 --> 00:25:43.619
Do you, Wendy, take this giant insect to be your lovely husband?

421
00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:46.799
And I think if we're going to mention that.

422
00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:52.319
We have to mention the film-based successor to this story.

423
00:25:52.380 --> 00:25:53.279
We do.

424
00:25:53.339 --> 00:25:54.539
Alien.

425
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:55.500
Alien.

426
00:25:55.559 --> 00:26:07.019
And we're okay to say that because Ridley Scott, who was actually lined up to design the Daleks back in 63 when he was for the BBC, has later on acknowledged that this is a primary source for alien.

427
00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:09.299
And of course, you know, the alien gestation.

428
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:10.859
It splits your whole body open and gets out.

429
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:12.299
I love the design of destroying.

430
00:26:12.420 --> 00:26:13.980
Isn't Rogers from Ari Leach?

431
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:15.359
I love their uniforms.

432
00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:17.579
The solar flares that they all wear.

433
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:19.440
Yes, I do.

434
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:27.240
It must be a Space 1999 with all this. made at the same time. except with actors.

435
00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:28.559
Not quite yet.

436
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.180
No, no, 1974.

437
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:31.319
It was actually being filmed.

438
00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:35.640
It was in pre-production in 73, everything filmed in 74.

439
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.640
Everything was filmed for the 1st season before they broadcast.

440
00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:40.140
It had a very long gestation period.

441
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.400
And the 3 of the same folk, Ian Scoons and all the rest of it, but that's not to say that this influence.

442
00:26:44.460 --> 00:26:48.420
There are many precursors for that beautiful, clean, sterile, and invasive food.

443
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:50.039
The white with the flashes of colour.

444
00:26:50.099 --> 00:26:51.299
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

445
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:52.440
I actually think it looks better.

446
00:26:52.500 --> 00:26:54.119
Oh, yeah.

447
00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:56.400
And the cryogenic pods and all that, you know?

448
00:26:56.460 --> 00:27:02.519
Just down to the details of those little banks of information slots when they walk into the...

449
00:27:03.059 --> 00:27:04.680
That's what I call microphone.

450
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.759
You just reminded me as a little boy, because this was on every year was sometimes repeated.

451
00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:10.980
I assumed that they were actually the cell banks.

452
00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:16.500
So you can mix up a cocktail of people instead of whatever kind you want.

453
00:27:16.559 --> 00:27:19.559
That's what a lot of people try and use some grinder for.

454
00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:20.940
It's like, know this, know that.

455
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:21.900
What's that?

456
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:23.279
I've got no idea.

457
00:27:23.339 --> 00:27:24.900
It's an app it's an app for coffee.

458
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:27.240
Unlike all the supporting cars.

459
00:27:27.299 --> 00:27:29.880
I'll have a double deco flatte.

460
00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:35.220
I like all the supporting cast lights, Rogan, Libre, who does that sort of...

461
00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:36.059
The fallover backwards.

462
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:36.839
Yeah, it's wonderful.

463
00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:38.700
And the working class bloke.

464
00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:40.259
Rogan, yeah, yeah.

465
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:41.759
They even have working class whinges.

466
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:44.880
I would have liked to stay on the earth like that.

467
00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:45.720
I like him.

468
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:48.359
But I do have a problem with Noah's performance.

469
00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:49.140
Okay.

470
00:27:49.140 --> 00:27:50.640
I think it's too over them.

471
00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:52.440
He's too hysterical too quickly.

472
00:27:52.500 --> 00:27:53.339
Yes.

473
00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:58.319
He immediately panics because there's other people on board, where I think he's very good is where the wear and starts taking it over.

474
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:00.059
No, I think that that's where he's terrible.

475
00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:08.099
And then, in fact, it's the cliffhanger to episode 2 where he pulls out the bubble wrap hand.

476
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:12.660
And then he starts fighting with a, you know, like throwing himself across the set and it's too much.

477
00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:16.140
And the reason is that he's the one who saves them all.

478
00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:21.180
It's Noah that saves everyone and he does it out of his love for Vira.

479
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:24.000
The last words that he says are goodbye to Vira.

480
00:28:24.059 --> 00:28:25.619
You know, he's a human being.

481
00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:28.799
He said, you know, he has no memory of the earth and all of that sort of thing.

482
00:28:28.859 --> 00:28:29.700
But it's not true.

483
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:39.539
And Tom's already foreshadowed that it's humanity, you know, the greatness of humanity is, you know, on display in that room and it's the greatness of humanity that saves us.

484
00:28:39.599 --> 00:28:48.900
Clearly, he's an actor in his scene that he's got his hand wrapped in bubble wrap and he's decided that he's decided to kind of pitch his performance accordingly.

485
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:58.740
But it would, I think, have been much, much better to have had something a little bit more subtle and a little bit more nuanced. would have given more drama.

486
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.539
I think it comes close to wrecking it.

487
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:04.319
I want to disagree, but I'm really sympathetic to your argument.

488
00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:09.900
I kind of like the contrast of Noah with the coolness, the Marshall McClellan lines of what's hot and what's cool.

489
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:12.420
He's the heat of the old earth.

490
00:29:12.539 --> 00:29:14.220
Everyone else is the cooler space.

491
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.279
And I reckon that's where it was actually Kendall Moore, was it?

492
00:29:17.339 --> 00:29:18.000
was the actor?

493
00:29:18.059 --> 00:29:18.900
Kenneth Moore.

494
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:19.619
Kenneth.

495
00:29:19.619 --> 00:29:21.480
Kenneth Moore was that... sorry, Kenton Moore.

496
00:29:21.539 --> 00:29:22.859
Kenton Moore. wish it was Kenneth Moore.

497
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:31.019
Who, uh, we previously saw dumping his own dead body in the river, which was forbidden. in Dalek Invaders, London.

498
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:34.319
He's in the he's the Roman man who goes into the river.

499
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:35.039
Wow.

500
00:29:35.099 --> 00:29:47.519
Which is a cinematic moment, referenced by the BFI and shown in their cinema reels of great moments of British cinema and TV, great filmmic moments of that scene of Kenton more daunting the body. realise it was him.

501
00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:50.039
And he sacrifices himself in this story as well.

502
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:53.880
See, the scene I really like. story all around for him, isn't it, right?

503
00:29:53.940 --> 00:30:08.700
The scene I really like him in is where the weiron is starting to take him over before the physical manifestation and he says to Vira that the revivification must be stopped and she argues with him because June's still missing and he's got that wonderful line of, but I'm here.

504
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.019
I'm due.

505
00:30:10.140 --> 00:30:12.839
No, you see, I think that that's more...

506
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:14.279
Really not from Kansas.

507
00:30:14.339 --> 00:30:14.700
Fair enough.

508
00:30:14.759 --> 00:30:16.920
It's not it's not unpleasant to watch.

509
00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:17.940
Do you know what I mean?

510
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.259
But I just can't help thinking.

511
00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:22.680
Fair enough. a puzzling creative choice.

512
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:23.759
Let's say.

513
00:30:23.819 --> 00:30:26.220
Harry's a bit of a chauvinist at times.

514
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:28.920
Oh, well, he's...

515
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:33.059
Yeah, and he says like a member of the fair sex at the top of the totem pole.

516
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:50.940
You see, though, I think I think that he's deliberately goading Sarah here because they've already established those 2 as a sort of brother and sister slightly bickering type of relationship in robot, when she's very early on, referred to him as, oh, you know, you get your chance to be James Bond, and when they both get captured, she gets captured after him.

517
00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:54.599
And when they're thrown in the same cell, she just looks at him and goes, James Bond.

518
00:30:54.660 --> 00:30:58.380
Actually, we didn't mention that he actually made, he actually plays a piss week.

519
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:03.839
Yes, yeah, right right down to the man from the ministry bowler hat.

520
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:08.880
Yeah, which I, and that's definitely Terence, because, you know, Terence and Mac Hulk wrote.

521
00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.740
I think 3 Avengers scripts together.

522
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:15.299
I agree with you on the brother sister thing and it does shine through in other stories.

523
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:18.599
I can't agree with you on this other points.

524
00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:26.039
Again, it is this thing where it's, you know, there are dozens of speaking parts in this season, 3 of which go to women.

525
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:27.900
You know, like and going...

526
00:31:27.900 --> 00:31:29.220
But how strong are these women?

527
00:31:29.279 --> 00:31:30.119
Yeah, that's the thing.

528
00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:32.640
It doesn't really matter, though.

529
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:33.240
Does it?

530
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:34.319
I don't know.

531
00:31:34.380 --> 00:31:37.200
It doesn't, okay, it doesn't fully redress the balance. obviously.

532
00:31:37.259 --> 00:31:38.819
My goodness, you don't forget these women.

533
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.339
No, I know, but that's because there's so few of them.

534
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:46.259
Yeah, I think it's because... it falls down on equality of representation.

535
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:58.680
But the supporting female characters who are there are all strong, well-drawn character. who, yeah, who lead the narrative or lead their own narrative within the story, which is even more important.

536
00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:00.960
Spoiler alert, I hate batan.

537
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:03.059
What a thing to say.

538
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:04.859
I just thought I'd get it in there.

539
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.640
That's a that's a next that's another story, though.

540
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:09.180
That is, yes.

541
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:12.900
Can't have 2 guest star women in the same story.

542
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:16.259
It's like having 4 people doing a podcast. would it be?

543
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:19.740
You know, I think that Sarah is very strong.

544
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.079
You love her in this one don't you?

545
00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:22.859
I do.

546
00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:25.500
I love it. her idea that they use the transporter ship.

547
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:26.640
The one that points that out.

548
00:32:26.700 --> 00:32:27.420
Yep.

549
00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:30.599
And her reaction to the doctor's death. again, she gets to do that.

550
00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:34.319
She does that an awful lot this year. and she did with pertly as well.

551
00:32:34.380 --> 00:32:35.519
She's always thinking he's clogged.

552
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.140
Twice in Monster of Paladon.

553
00:32:37.980 --> 00:32:39.599
Are we referencing monster pell in my game?

554
00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:42.180
No, we have to. contractually obliged.

555
00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:50.579
It shows how Elizabeth Sladen grows her performance, so she goes, because when it happens with pertly, she's almost inconsolable with grief.

556
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:53.819
But in a way she's seen him die now.

557
00:32:53.880 --> 00:33:01.500
So when she thinks he's dead at the end of, at the end of this story, it's a, it's a very muted, very personal reaction.

558
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:03.480
This is really aware of that, isn't she?

559
00:33:03.539 --> 00:33:04.319
Yeah, yeah.

560
00:33:04.380 --> 00:33:05.940
And I think it's a very deliberate choice.

561
00:33:06.000 --> 00:33:13.859
And, you know, Ian Marta comes over and this could be another opportunity for him to be chauvinistic, but he actually says, he, the doctor, would want you to be brave.

562
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.039
So he's acknowledging that Sarah is a brave person.

563
00:33:17.099 --> 00:33:20.339
He's not saying pull yourself together, you silly girl, or words to that effect.

564
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:23.279
It's like he'd want you to be brave because I know you can be brave.

565
00:33:23.339 --> 00:33:24.420
I know you can be brave.

566
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.140
Do you remember Liz talking about this story when you talked to her, Todd?

567
00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:28.799
at all?

568
00:33:28.859 --> 00:33:30.180
They mostly talked about boys.

569
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:34.559
What the hell?

570
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.380
Oh, dear, listen, help me now.

571
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:38.759
No, I don't remember.

572
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:42.480
I actually have to go back and watch the interview, like I mean, because you're in the movie.

573
00:33:42.539 --> 00:33:43.319
It's a great interview.

574
00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:46.619
I would love to, if we could host that on the website because Todd is a brilliant.

575
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:47.039
Do you have it?

576
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:47.940
Can we get it on YouTube?

577
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:49.019
I do have it.

578
00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:51.420
And most of our listeners are actually folk we don't know.

579
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:51.720
Hello?

580
00:33:51.779 --> 00:33:55.440
We could talk we could talk to Damien and see if he minds us uploading bits of it?

581
00:33:55.500 --> 00:33:59.220
Listener, if you'd like to, you know, if you're interested in all of this stuff.

582
00:33:59.220 --> 00:34:03.960
Do mention us on your iTunes review when you say this.

583
00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:12.239
Can I just say like, like, the interview is not in my mind because as you're sitting there, you're going, oh, my goodness, I'm interviewing Elizabeth Slater.

584
00:34:12.300 --> 00:34:13.440
What the hell do I say?

585
00:34:13.500 --> 00:34:14.159
My heart is in my mouth.

586
00:34:14.219 --> 00:34:17.340
You're probably still concussed from walking into all those pills.

587
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:18.059
Oh, yes.

588
00:34:18.059 --> 00:34:20.159
I've got some kind of stain on my shirt.

589
00:34:20.219 --> 00:34:20.940
I know I have.

590
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.860
That's just the love of dribble.

591
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.019
But it is a beautiful interview.

592
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:28.860
And I mean, Liz never gave a bad interview, but Todd really brings some great stuff out of it.

593
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:31.920
So if we could find it, it would be so nice to have those an adjunct to this podcast.

594
00:34:31.980 --> 00:34:37.139
Yeah, it's not a personal one, but when we get to Genesis of Daleks, I do have a funny interview story about Liz.

595
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:37.800
Yes, please.

596
00:34:37.860 --> 00:34:38.159
Yeah.

597
00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:45.179
I mean, there's Ian and there's everyone else, but for me, Liz really does, she's the one I keep watching in this for the reaction shots and everyone else.

598
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:46.260
It a Liz I keep looking at.

599
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:46.739
You know what?

600
00:34:46.800 --> 00:34:49.019
I'm gonna come back to something you were saying, Nathan.

601
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.960
And I think this is something we should look at over the course of this coming season.

602
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:52.860
Oh, we will.

603
00:34:52.860 --> 00:35:00.539
As much as, as much as the 1st series of the new Doctor Who was about Rose's journey.

604
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:04.260
I think this year is about Sarah's journey.

605
00:35:04.739 --> 00:35:10.500
Even more so than the season before where she was introduced for her coming season or even her last season.

606
00:35:10.619 --> 00:35:11.340
Yeah, what?

607
00:35:11.340 --> 00:35:14.280
Her horrendous journey into Jeopardy every other week.

608
00:35:14.340 --> 00:35:22.320
Yeah, I think I think it's important for the character, but we'll talk about that more at the end of the season. very Nietzsche and Nietzschean again, the triumph of her will, yeah.

609
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:22.860
I love it.

610
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:24.300
I love this story.

611
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:26.639
It is spectacularly good, isn't it?

612
00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:29.460
There's nothing, there's not the T word in this for anything.

613
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.900
No, nothing's tiresome.

614
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:32.400
Hooray!

615
00:35:32.460 --> 00:35:33.780
We finally found one.

616
00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:37.019
Nathan likes a Doctor Who story.

617
00:35:37.079 --> 00:35:42.840
Oh, this is the 1st time as a little boy I ever saw the TARDIS in colour and I found out it was blue.

618
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:44.159
I'd been drawing it.

619
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:47.760
We've got a colour set that you shows you how old we all are.

620
00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:50.760
I'd been drawing it brown, which is not a euphemism.

621
00:35:50.820 --> 00:35:51.900
I had been drawing it brown.

622
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.800
And I have a drawing still of myself climbing out of the TARDIS upended.

623
00:35:55.860 --> 00:36:07.260
And so I have to finally say, thank you, Stephen Moffat, for making my dreams come true, because that 1st scene with young Amelia, Pond, and Matt Smith climbing out of the TARDIS is the thing I'd drawn in 1976.

624
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.500
Oh, yeah, yeah.

625
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:11.280
It's blue.

626
00:36:24.780 --> 00:36:26.820
Thank you, dear listener.

627
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:29.699
That's all the time we have this week for the Arking Space.

628
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:34.320
We will be back next week, coming back down to Earth with the Santaran experiment.

629
00:36:34.380 --> 00:36:46.559
In the meantime, you can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes, which has an interesting review mechanic you may want to try out and FTE podcast on Twitter.

630
00:36:46.619 --> 00:36:49.860
Until then, thank you very much for listening and good night.

631
00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:50.519
Good night.

632
00:36:50.579 --> 00:36:51.239
Good everyone.

633
00:36:51.300 --> 00:36:52.019
See you soon.

634
00:36:53.820 --> 00:37:00.119
You've been listening to Flat Your Entirety with Todd Beerby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone.

635
00:37:00.179 --> 00:37:04.860
This episode, a beneficent god, was recorded on the 14th of June.

636
00:37:04.920 --> 00:37:07.679
The next episode will be released on July 5.

637
00:37:08.099 --> 00:37:13.920
If Harry's speech patterns prove him to be aggressive, God knows what Noah would make of us.

638
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:20.460
It's blue.

639
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:24.480
So is just much like this podcast.