WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:15:56

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Welcome back for part 2 of Hartnell's 2nd season.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Richard And we're just going to get straight into it with, ah, that charming Latin music for the Romans.

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Brilliant.

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I can't hear it either, is obviously my musical ability shot.

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No, no, no, it's all right, but it's not that good.

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Which is more than one can say for the Revans, which is all right and back.

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Well, I think it's terrific.

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And I went on record last season as saying that I was rather bored with stories that don't have Sontarans in them. um and kind of limits that they all.

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It can't wait until we get to the end of time. fantastic.

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No, historicals.

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Do you know what I mean?

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The pure historical. which is a big feature of the Hartnell years, you know, they basically alternate between historicals and sort of sci-fi adventure.

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And I did say that while I could see that the Aztecs were sort of fairly worthy that it didn't really grab me.

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And I really think that this is the right way to do a historical.

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Now, this is some Dennis Spooner.

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Dennis Spooner?

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Yes.

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Who did...

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Reign of Terror.

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Last year.

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And we all thought that was a bit of a misfire.

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But you can see what he's attempting to do in Reign of Terror, and what he actually gets right. here, which is not to put the regular cast in a particular time period, but to set them free in a particular kind of story.

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So, uh, Reign of Terror is the sort of Scarlet Pimpernel thing and it has all of those things that, you know, you're used to from that kind of story.

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And then the Romans does this with ancient Rome.

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So, you know, we do have a historical event.

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We've got the great fire of London, a great fire of London.

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No.

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London.

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London.

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We do have a historical event, the Great Fire of Rome.

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But really, the fun of this comes from getting our regulars and setting them loose in an ancient Rome story.

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And it does have all of the things that you expect an ancient Rome story to have.

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So it's got gladiators, you know, it's got people rowing galleys, you know, it's got Nero.

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The only thing it doesn't have, and perhaps the big, the big emission, is any mention of eating dormice.

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But they do eat ants, eggs.

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They do eat ants.

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It's okay.

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So that nearly counts.

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So the weird Roman food thing.

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Fortunately, Pfizer Pompeii gets the dormice thing, right?

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And in scene three, we do have Kaikilius saying that he'd really sort of rather fancy a dormouse.

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I think that that's that's essentially why this works.

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And when it's tried again in the future, next season we'll see the gunfighters, which does that, setting the regulars in free in an environment with really, really strong genre tropes, you know?

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So I think that that's the absolute high points of this approach.

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But this is, this is certainly, um, This is certainly sort of working along the same lines.

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So I guess the smugglers does that a bit with pirates and stuff.

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I haven't seen Highlanders.

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You're almost up to it.

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I'm nearly up to it. doing very well.

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I am doing very well.

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But so I don't know whether that's like that, whether but the idea is less putting them in historical period and having them, you know, need to escape, but more giving them, you know, fun, um, interactions with a different kind of story, one that they're not used to.

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And then I think, also the way that it begins, I think, is really, really particularly strong, and that is, they've been in the place for a month.

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There's that hilarious, the hilarious opening, isn't it?

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where...

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Yeah, it's the original cliffhanger.

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They fall up a cliff.

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And then Ian's lying there and you kind of think, oh, he's unconscious.

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And then these grapes come into view and it turns out that they're just lying around a villa and have been for a month and they're having a lovely time and they're sort of relaxing.

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And in fact, Vicky's a little bit because she thought they were going to have sort of fun adventures and stuff and all they've been doing is sort of hanging around.

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And I suppose with Vicky, in a way, you know, even though she was a prisoner and pretty much alone in the previous story.

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She's already had lying around inside and eating all day, you know?

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Okay, this is a much nicer situation, but for Vicky, it's like, well, yeah, I was already in one prison.

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This is just another kind of prison.

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Even if I am back in history and with nicer people who didn't kill my father.

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Yeah, no, I mean, she's, you know, she's bored, but she's also bored not just because of her character, but because she's a young person, do you know what I mean?

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And so the doctor takes her on an adventure and he's clearly keen to kind of impress her and all of that sort of thing.

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And this is really where we see them start to work.

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So you get Barbara and Ian. chasing each other around, doing each other's hair, looking just sort of terribly post-coital at times.

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You know, they're clearly on together by this stage.

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And after the doctor and Vicki leave, they are a bit tipsy during that whole.

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Oh, there's some more peacock breast in the fridge.

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Oh, the ongoing fridge joke.

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The thing is, it's a dad joke, but it's actually funny because of the way they play it.

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Yeah, they're having fun.

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And because it's Barbara who fools Ian the 1st time around when he's like the scientific rational one.

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It's like, yeah, it's in the fridge.

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It is, I mean, I think the whole thing is just sort of terribly terribly good fun.

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And it does all the things that you expect a Roman story to do.

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And as Richard said last time, you know, the French Revolution was something that was covered in history, so the kids knew something about that period.

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And the same with this.

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You know, people used to learn Latin at school, bizarrely.

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It's the take on Nero and burning Rome.

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Am I right to say that's tacitus?

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where it comes from?

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It does.

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It's not actually backed up, Bo, is it Cicero?

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It's not also, it's not really backed up by any other historical accounts.

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I was, in fact, this kind of bugger.

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No, that's not true.

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Cassius Dion Suetonius and Tacitus all have Nero burning Rome.

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But Tacitus gives a couple of accounts, I think.

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And so he's not sort of completely down on that.

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But there's all sorts of other details.

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You know, it's a perfume.

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I know it was something invented because we should be added at this point that my understanding of historians at the time, the names you've just mentioned, Tacitus, Suetonius, anti-imperial, anti, the new construct of Rome, where the Caesar, a king.

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Again, the Senate having lost its powers. any chance they got to copper brick and Augustus and all these noble science was well taken.

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I think I mean, there is something to that.

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Suetonius is keen to tell kind of thrilling, outrageous stories.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So if they can be scandalous, They will be.

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But there are other accounts that have Nero either away at the time or Nero involved in the rescue and so on.

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But, you know, Nero fiddling while Rome burns, you can't not do that.

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If you're going to do the Great Fire, he's got to be playing.

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Oh no, for sure.

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I'm just wondering where this, because this is very much, oh, look, you know, how do you want to admit it?

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is Doctor Who might exactly, if you want to say he lives in an alternate universe, you talked about that book cover, for the French Revolution in an earthly child, which I think, you know, is the primary thing I've taken away from that 1st podcast.

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The book covers alternate from the broadcast version to the broadcast version.

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But it's the same with this.

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Maybe Doctor Who and TARDIS actually flicks about not just through reality as we know it, but into worlds of fiction.

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It certainly does when it learns in places like the land of fiction coming up in the mind robber.

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Maybe this is maybe the TARDIS is now existing in a narrative discourse that's purely fantasy.

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I mean, for example, the real Nero outlawed the killing of fallen gladiators 5 years before this story is set.

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Do you remember that?

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No.

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Yeah, I haven't, Ancient History at Uni, but that's, there are a whole lot of things about footnotes to tacitous and just how that I recall, is just how much was political against the current setup of the Roman Senate with the season.

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Well, I mean, it just uses, it uses the fun things from, from test citizens with tonis, that you know about Nero.

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So there's the fabulous official court poisoner Lacosta.

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Who is actually real in the sense?

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But not played by a prototype.cotton, a June Brown in this one because she's, I just see her cropping up an outside iron gron's castle lobbing stink bombs over the ball and murder the whole bloody lot of them.

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That's not her, though.

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No, but it's almost like...

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I know that is.com.

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No, it's very much that same mould of those British actresses.

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You just don't see anymore because they'll smoke themselves to an early grade in the 1960s.

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It is some.

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I mean, she's terrifically funny and she's almost kind of right out of I Claudius, isn't she?

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Yeah, it's very much a Robert Graves and it meets carry on.

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Well, Robert Graves, Robert Graves is doing the same thing in I, Claudius, which we should mention it's a series from 1976, which has lots and lots of Doctor Who people in it. including the master.

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Roger Derdander?

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Derek Jack.

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Derek Jacoby, who's the star, of course, we own him.

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He's been in Doctor Who.

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I think we own him in more ways than that.

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But, you know, it's all shot in BBC television centre, studio one.

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Yeah, it has that lovely studio bound feel.

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Yeah, there's not a frame of location footage anywhere.

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You know, there's a lot of use of the BBC sound effects records and stuff to create. tweet, tweet.

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Yeah, yeah, applause and things to create ancient Rome.

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That's how we used to see Shakespeare.

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It is really good.

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If anyone's not seen it, they really should go and buy it immediately except that the DVD releases.

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You can watch them.

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It's actually up on YouTube.

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Is it?

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Yeah, it's well worth a look and it certainly is full of Brian Blest and Fiona Walker and various other people.

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Christopher Biggins.

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Christopher Biggins is Nero, in fact. in it, oddly enough.

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What else is Christopher Biggins in in Doctor Who?

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Well, he hasn't done a TV Doctor Who, but he has done a wonderful big finish audio.

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The one Doctor. where he is impersonating the doctor.

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And who else, which real doctor could he go up against except for Colin Baker?

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But for much of the story, Christopher Biggins is actually paired up with Bonnie Langford, which is even more delightful than it sounds.

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But in terms of the Romans, Christopher Biggins appears on the making of the DVD, because, of course, Derek Francis.

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Was it Derek Francis?

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Yeah, Derek Francis, who played Nero in the Romans, is sadly no longer with us.

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Yeah, before he died.

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Yeah, while ago.

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So Christopher Biggins appears on, I think, 2 of the special features.

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He definitely appears on the one that is about Rome and how the Rome we see in the Romans compares to historical Rome.

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He may also appear on the making of, giving his perspective on how Nero was played.

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Because he's television's near him.

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Because he was...

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Yeah, exactly.

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He was television's Nero.

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And they even show clips of him as Nero, and there are design similarity.

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Yeah, yeah, they're both sort of big guys.

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They're both sort of ever so slightly camped.

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A smear on top of the score.

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And they both have a childlike...

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There's a petular aspect.

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Yes, but also there's a there's an odd kind of it.

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Yeah, but there's that duality with children as well.

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There's that innocence and that lightness, but there's also the dark is right at the front and comes straight out there and they can do appalling acts to ants.

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They say as a theme is this season, isn't it?

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Well, at least they're eggs.

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So, um, And I guess, I guess the other thing that I want to say about the story is that it's, it's a comedy and despite all of the peril.

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There's lots of peril which is just fabulously realised by the insertion of stock footage.

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You know, there's...

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Like a lion, some waves.

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The episode two, Cliffhanger is them being menaced by stock footage of a lion, isn't it?

183
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Or am I, did I?

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Well, several angles.

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Like different lines from completely different zoos.

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Yes.

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Um, But all of that stuff, uh, you know, once we get to the palace and the doctor and Vicky keep narrowly missing.

188
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Yeah, Barbara, yeah.

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Yeah, and in fact, they end the story, not actually realising that they've been there.

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I think I think Barbara has to tell Vicky in episode one of the Web Planet that we actually went and met Nero.

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So all of that where one runs in and one runs out and they're all narrowly missing each other.

192
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And then you've got, you know, a papaya getting very jealous at Nero and Nero, like, again trying to, uh, um, being rapey towards Barbara.

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But not in quite... very innocent way.

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Not in a vasor way.

195
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Not in a vasor way.

196
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And also it's not the sort of story that that keys of marinace is.

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No, this is a fate do fast.

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The whole year, the French fasting of people just missing each other coming out of doors and chasing each other around rooms, which we carry on, God all of that from.

199
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That's right.

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And maybe, you know, like I have certainly read people criticising the, I think probably even Sander for criticises the sort of rapiness of that aspect of the plot, but it isn't, and it's, it, it's not really pitched that way, I think.

201
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And so I think it really genuinely works as sort of hilariously funny.

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And there is that line that we quoted before where the doctor does the emperor's new clothes thing and he's playing the liar too subtly for everyone to hear and and Nero's response is just priceless.

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You know, it's it's a very funny story.

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I think it works terrifically well, and it would have to be my absolute favourite historical or possibly the only one that I actually like.

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Getting back to something you say, because I think it is an important point to raise, in terms of watching the story now, um, the treatment of Barbara by Nero, and as you sort of describe it, the rapiness of it, and how that compares to Vesor, and I think the important thing to consider he is.

206
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Barbara constantly bests Nero and protects herself.

207
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And the situation never becomes physically violent.

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There is certainly the inherent and implied violence, but Barbara uses her knowledge and intellect in order to get out of the situation.

209
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Um, Now, of course, you know, it's still a problematic way to treat female character.

210
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But I think also at the time, that is what a Roman emperor would have been like.

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00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.059
Exactly, and it's treated with great lightness and deathness.

212
00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:33.779
I think that's it.

213
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:38.820
It would have been terrifying had it really happened, but this is great comedic work here.

214
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:43.559
Yeah, I don't want to accuse keys of mariners as being realist of being realist in any way.

215
00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:44.399
Do you know what I mean?

216
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:55.620
It's ridiculous, but there is a kind of level of genuine threat and peril that isn't really present here where, like, we're being assailed by stock tropes of a sort of Roman story.

217
00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:56.519
Do you know what I mean?

218
00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:59.639
It's not, there just isn't that level of threat.

219
00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:04.620
So it is sort of problematic, but it doesn't it doesn't distress me unduly.

220
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:11.639
And then they're all sort of just back home and, you know, back to the villa and off again onto new adventures.

221
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:12.299
I think it's just lovely.

222
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.440
I think it works really fast.

223
00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:25.860
My favourite moment in this, going back to what you're just saying, is when Derek Francis saying, Jackie Healer, in close up, and he just says leans leers towards her, sort of oleaginous cloud, and just says, close your eyes.

224
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:27.480
I've got a surprise for you.

225
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:31.080
And Barbara's reaction is pure carry on. raise the what?

226
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:34.139
raise the eyebrows and it's a ring deer.

227
00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.320
Oh, well, of which later?

228
00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:40.980
Well, interestingly, Carry on Cleo came out in 1964.

229
00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:42.059
It did.

230
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.460
And there's quite a bit of that in this too.

231
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:44.820
Yeah.

232
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.019
Infamously.

233
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:52.200
Oh, and I think something we haven't mentioned yet for the Romans that cannot go unremarked.

234
00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:55.740
Beginning of, I think, episode two.

235
00:16:56.100 --> 00:17:00.720
Billy's planning on how to do a recital, turns around.

236
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:05.220
There's Barry Jackson with a sword and Billy just says, right, at a taxi.

237
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:08.819
Throws a curtain over him, throws a chair at him.

238
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:10.500
Just keeps on fighting him.

239
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:19.799
Uh, and it's, it's a side we haven't, we have seen Billy getting a bit more physical in this season, like in um, in Darlic Invasion of Earth.

240
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:21.720
He whacks one of the roamen with a stick.

241
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:27.480
And in the rescue, he does brawl with Coquillion.

242
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.779
I'm using the definition brawl there of using whatever weapons you have to hand.

243
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:34.920
But this is the 1st time where he seems to go, aha, fisticuffs.

244
00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:36.660
I'll show you, you filthy bounder.

245
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.599
Well, he does actually say how much he enjoys it or, doesn't he?

246
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.660
Yeah, he says, I forget, you know, how much I...

247
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:48.539
And well, I think he starts with, like, he just turns around and sees the guy there, sees the sources, ah, it's a fight you want, do you?

248
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:53.700
Like, he doesn't he doesn't try to sort of go, oh, now, my dear chap, how about we, da, da, da.

249
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:58.259
As even John Pertwee would try and talk to someone before fighting them.

250
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:00.420
But Billy's just like, oh, that'd be so bad.

251
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.519
It's safe to say he's well tasty in a fight in this scene.

252
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:17.700
This is the doctor that Tom's doctor refers to and he said, oh, you know, I was taught with and by Cleopatra's 1st warrior, you know, this was definitely Billy who was up for all of that.

253
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.859
Didn't he train the mountain mauler of Montana?

254
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:20.759
That's the one.

255
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.940
It was Burt Reynolds.

256
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.460
In a best, in a best.

257
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:27.359
In a canoe.

258
00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:29.220
On a float, yes, on a raft.

259
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.839
Did all his own stunts.

260
00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:32.519
Just like Billy.

261
00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:33.240
Well.

262
00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:38.880
And of course, at the end of that soon, Vicky comes in chasing the bloke with a vase and throws him out a window.

263
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:41.519
That's good.

264
00:18:41.519 --> 00:19:15.359
That's another nice thing is that the stunt extras in this actually carry the story as much as the principal leads. and you've got Barry Jackson and the terrific Peter Diamond as stunt workers who are actually and there's some beautiful going back to Robert Greys, but there's actually some lovely Spartacus was another film that came out, of course, just a couple of years before Douglas, Kirk Douglas, and Tony Curtis, of course, in that marvellous, there's a marvellous scene with Lawrence Olivier and Tony Curtis that's on the cutting room floor, but, you know, the slave and the master having a

265
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:15.779
bath.

266
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.759
And you don't quite get to that in this.

267
00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:24.839
But there's a real sense, and I shouldn't probably make that make so much light of it because there's a real sense of makeship and camaraderie.

268
00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:33.180
And Ian's 1st chance to actually have someone who's an equal in the narrative and bond with that as in friendship.

269
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:37.680
And that's that's that really lovely friendship that he and Delos have.

270
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:43.140
And I just sort of liked him who was stuck around for the next adventure because he would have really given a zombie a going.

271
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:50.220
No, it's it's a wonderful sense of fraternity that we do hear about.

272
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:51.539
Did Rod have anything to say about that?

273
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:58.799
Well, yeah, so Rod's comment on that was Ian gets a very sexy little bear buddy.

274
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:00.960
To be a dime, it is very beautiful.

275
00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:10.799
We should mention he's in all 3 original Star Wars movies and he's the one that actually grabs Carrie Fisher by the hair buns and leaps her over the chasm.

276
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:14.160
He's the one doing the leg..

277
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:15.240
Jedi, yes.

278
00:20:15.299 --> 00:20:18.119
No, he also does the Luke leap on the rock.

279
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.200
I'm so sorry.

280
00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:20.039
That the one you refer to.

281
00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:21.299
Yeah, but, you know, no, but he does.

282
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:22.380
He does all the principal stunts.

283
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:22.859
Oh, right.

284
00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:26.039
Dave Prowce, he does stuff with him, yeah.

285
00:20:26.099 --> 00:20:38.819
But yeah, that, the sort of, um, fast and loyal friendship we see between Ian and Delos is exactly what we hear about in historical context of the Greek and Roman armies at the time.

286
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:44.220
And the sort of concept of and... does bring that out in people.

287
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:52.019
I think that the real reason that that relationship exists though, is that it's a standard trope of gladiator films.

288
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.319
I just recently watched Pompeii, which is kind of terrible.

289
00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:59.759
But, um, is actually really just essentially a gladiator film.

290
00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:05.519
And so the idea is that 2 people grow to become friends, then they're put in the arena and they have to fight one another.

291
00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:16.920
One of the reasons for D-Loss and and Ian to become friends is so that the stakes are raised in the episode 3 Cliffhanger, which is Dios about to defeat Ian, I think.

292
00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:17.519
Yeah.

293
00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:18.839
Yeah.

294
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:21.599
Well, from a from a show perspective.

295
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:23.460
It's kind of interesting because it's...

296
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:28.619
It's like the opposite of the relationship between Ian and Exeter in the Aztecs.

297
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:42.059
Because Ian and Exeter in the Aztecs are ordered to train together and never develop a friendship, but have to externally display that, oh, yeah, we're getting along fine, but really they don't.

298
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.700
Whereas Ian and Delos.

299
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:56.039
I throw it together by chance, they just happen to be sitting together in the galley and the galleon and become very firm friends, but then have to put on this show of fighting each other.

300
00:21:56.099 --> 00:22:01.259
But then come back together again at the end, and D-Lor survives, whereas Ixter doesn't.

301
00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:08.460
So it's the same kind of thing where both times they've given Ian a rival slash equal.

302
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.960
But, sort of inverted it.

303
00:22:13.019 --> 00:22:22.140
I don't know if it's deliberate or if it's just the writers, John Lucarotti and Dennis Spooner playing with that trope you mentioned, the gladiator friend trope.

304
00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:25.559
Anyway, it's marvellous.

305
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.220
Yes.

306
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:31.259
Yeah, I don't I don't think anyone is going to dissent on that.

307
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:35.519
And if you do dissent on it, write into us and let us know these two.

308
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:41.519
And we will send the men round to your house with the nice white jacket with the roomy sleeves.

309
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.500
Ah?

310
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:50.640
Well, that sound can mean only one thing went off to the, uh, we're off to the soft focus Vaseline lens.

311
00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:52.799
I just might as well, my fingers are so slippery.

312
00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.140
It's all that actually...

313
00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:55.799
The board.

314
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:57.839
Not the board, it might as well be.

315
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.599
Planet of the Monopra and the Zabi.

316
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:05.339
In which case, I should mention our 2nd baked good of this season.

317
00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:13.680
Rod has made us Optra larvae scrolls, which looks suspiciously like strawberry scroll scrolls.

318
00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:19.019
So we'll have the we'll have the recipe for those on the website.

319
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.420
They look like ammonites.

320
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.920
Exactly, they do.

321
00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:23.519
Yes.

322
00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:25.619
Were they in the web planet?

323
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.339
Everything else was.

324
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:26.940
Yes.

325
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.619
The web planet.

326
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:29.519
My word.

327
00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:31.079
What year is this setting?

328
00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:33.420
It has no real place, does it?

329
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.200
No, there's no, there's no human context to it.

330
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.140
It's the base fanboy thing to say, isn't it?

331
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:43.619
There's no other humanoid characters other than the principal Carlos.

332
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:50.579
Although the animus in the last episode does say that she hopes to take from man his mastery of space.

333
00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.039
Ah, so we're somewhere often up there.

334
00:23:53.099 --> 00:23:57.839
The reason I ask that is because it's an interesting show.

335
00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:17.099
It's outside space and time as we know it in any other context in the series, and pretty much of TV generally at the time, or even now, what did Russell T. Davis families famously say, we're not going to Planet Zog to meet the Zogites and get them to zog each other out for episodes.

336
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.759
He's not interested if there's no human thing in it.

337
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:23.579
So the Zog monster on the planet Zog is not interesting.

338
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.759
And so that would specifically rule this out.

339
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.220
Even though he clearly has fond memories of it.

340
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.240
There's a bunch of references to it in series one of Doctor Who.

341
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.839
Margaret Savine scared of being menaced by the venom grubs.

342
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:41.279
The face of both... from the ISOP galaxy. yeah.

343
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:46.980
So it is something that he clearly thinks fondly off, but it's not something that would ever be attempted now, I think.

344
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:54.420
And yet, was it not for its time or up until the 70s, the biggest rating Doctor Who story?

345
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:55.200
Yes.

346
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:57.119
Yeah, it was incredibly popular.

347
00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:59.279
Up 12000000 an upbeach episode.

348
00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:03.960
And yet on every other level. audience appreciation, BBC appreciation.

349
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:11.700
We tend to see it now as this faint and faintly curious and kind of sweet thing that, oh, you know, everyone just accepted that as the time.

350
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:12.599
They really didn't.

351
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:22.440
The letters that were coming in and as well as the, um, appreciation from the directors of the BBC and the critical people there were saying, this is actually a bit pants.

352
00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:23.700
It's just not working.

353
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.859
And they all were kind of missing the point.

354
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:38.519
The only people that kind of got it right were, I guess, the new fans, the kids, and not just the kids, the families who were sitting at home saying, we love this because we have no idea what's going on or where we are.

355
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:47.640
And I get as other people have said, this is the point where you can see that the Doctor Who production office were definitely saying, hmm, mushrooms, yes, let's have those.

356
00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:48.539
Where did they come from?

357
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:50.039
I don't know, very.

358
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:51.119
But yeah, and what's this?

359
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.180
And a tap, patch is, because it's really whacked.

360
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.440
It's out there.

361
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:56.880
It's completely Zonk.

362
00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:02.819
You can't imagine that it would have been quite so out there if David Whittaker was still script editor.

363
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:20.039
Yeah, and that's a really good point because he was so literary in what he did, which is not to presuppose that this thing doesn't have its own antecedents, and I'd actually have to say, as a science fiction story, it's actually the most traditional that they've so far done.

364
00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:47.759
And I'll tell you why, that again, when we talked about graphically, these kinds of stories, very much the cognisant of pulp fiction, there's the one that came to mind as the 1932 Astounding Stories, which is kind of famous, Paul Ernst's raid on the termites, which have images of insects that look almost exactly like the zombie, but spouting venomous web-like stuff over the heroes.

365
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:53.880
It's, you know, insect planets have been around, actually, um, way, 1768.

366
00:26:54.059 --> 00:26:58.380
There's a story by a writer, you could actually cook science fiction.

367
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:03.660
Gonzales talks about, it's called the man in the moon, where he has insectoid creatures.

368
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:09.059
And then, of course, let's get to the 2 greatest and where this, I think, visually this show, this thing comes from.

369
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:16.200
It was Mele, George Mele, his beautiful 1902 film trip to the moon.

370
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:34.680
Lavage de la Lune, who 1st married the stories of Jules Verne with H.G. Worlds. actually quite different moon voyage things and put them together and he's Selenites, in fact, he's, he's, um, Visually, his designs for the moon creatures look almost exactly like cockyon.

371
00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:36.599
Monsieur Cockney from the story before.

372
00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:39.240
So there's lots of those lovely Millie's moments in this thing.

373
00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:50.640
Um, but just the eiriness of it, the weirdness of it, the fact that we're not in a space, the gorgeous score, which is um, the structural, sonor, am I correct?

374
00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:58.380
Yeah, those French, the French, um, Early electronic boys that just doing wacko weird, beautiful things.

375
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:00.599
Visually you have no idea where you are.

376
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:05.819
You're on your side. and you've definitely had a bex with your cup of tea when you're watching this.

377
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.000
It's really blows me even now watching it.

378
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:11.039
I have no idea what's going on or where I am.

379
00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:12.720
I don't think even the narrative does.

380
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:29.039
And then you've got all these extraordinary William Blake effects going on where they start talking about the worship of the light and these amazing lines of the monopteras and the opta, of course, mentioning light worship and light as life.

381
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:39.299
It's as if they're all presupposing air card tolls work and, you know, all the stuff that's going on with, with, um, new age, uh, writing now.

382
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.579
It's no wonder it had 12, 13000000 viewers.

383
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:42.539
Maybe there's something in that.

384
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:52.319
There's some really beautiful progressive images of light as a deity and just a whole different world and a whole different structure.

385
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:53.279
What did you think?

386
00:28:53.339 --> 00:28:57.359
Well, I'm picking up what something you said just saying about the ratings.

387
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:20.519
A lot of people sort of say with Doctor Who, that students, you know, people in their late teens, early 20s, only started flocking to Doctor Who in the Douglas Adams, Tom Baker, but Colin Baker says that when he was 18, 19, living in digs with David Troughton, he came home one evening as he was coming in the front door.

388
00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:21.839
There was Cody morning.

389
00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:40.440
This was before David met Katie, I believe, but as he was coming in the front door, the opening titles of an unearthly child were on the table and he sort of leant on the counter at the front door and said the next thing I knew, I was still standing there and the credits were rolling and that was my 1st and I kept watching.

390
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:43.079
And so he was in that...

391
00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:53.519
So with what you were saying about um, tapping into all those historical filmmakers and authors and philosophers and the worship of the light.

392
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:55.920
I think the university students were already watching.

393
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:59.220
And I think that's probably the right on to those little mushy stories.

394
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:01.380
Yeah, the mushroom soup is definitely being handed around.

395
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:09.539
Because if, you know, children's parents who are the in many cases would be the serious ones on the audience report saying, oh, well, I don't know what's going on.

396
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.579
Might have just said to their kids for a few weeks.

397
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.839
No, you're not watching that rubbish.

398
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:14.940
Not watching that nappy paddy light worshipping rubbish.

399
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.880
But you can because it's within the structure of Doctor Who.

400
00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:19.140
Yeah, so that's safe.

401
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.339
That's safe.

402
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.059
Since then, it's not got that greater reputation, does it?

403
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:40.140
I mean, people kind of laugh at it and say that it's, you know, that it's a failed attempt or that it doesn't quite work because you've got sort of ropey 60s. you know, like it's ambitious visually, but it falls short because we can all just tell that they're men in suits.

404
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:40.920
Do you know what I mean?

405
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:42.900
Like there is a... the whole point, isn't it?

406
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:43.980
It's not actually meant.

407
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:44.819
It's about theatre.

408
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:56.460
It's about allowing the suspension of disbelief and being as a viewer, getting along with the what's going on, buying into it, being a friend of the narrative and allowing it to do what it's doing.

409
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:00.420
We forget that at this time, TV wasn't all that common.

410
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.960
It wasn't certainly on broadcast 24 hours a day.

411
00:31:04.019 --> 00:31:05.220
It was only a few hours of the day.

412
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.980
People still went to things like local theatres.

413
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.180
People had picture books.

414
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.019
Kids 1st reference were these kinds of images, statics.

415
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:21.779
The fact this was moving around and in the home was pretty profound and immediate and allowed an involvement that you don't necessarily have now and got so many distractions.

416
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:23.400
I certainly remember it.

417
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:38.039
People speaking about it sort of fairly dismissively, you know, when I was when I was younger and I think, I don't know what fan consensus is anymore, but I remember being surprised by how much I enjoyed it.

418
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:41.099
I think it really does work very well and it is because.

419
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:56.640
It is because it is so alien and the juxtaposition of, you know, ordinary people like Barbara and Ian with these sort of strange, increasingly strange as the Opera appear, monsters.

420
00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.279
You know, I think is really terrific.

421
00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:05.519
And there is something sort of fabulously dreamlike about them flying through the studio and all of that sort of thing.

422
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:08.759
Something fabulously dreamlike about Rosalind De Winter, isn't it?

423
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.059
Take a drink, everyone.

424
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:17.400
But she really worked them hard, apparently, all that thing of the gestures and then the body movements.

425
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:18.839
They took it really seriously.

426
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:19.740
Yes, they did.

427
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:20.759
She's in it, isn't she?

428
00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:21.420
Is she something?

429
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:22.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

430
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:23.640
She's one of the...

431
00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:30.779
She's the fairly female monoptera, I believe the character is Rosalind De Winter was Vreston, of course.

432
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:38.880
I remember. and she played against Martin Jarvis as Hillary, who was the, was the, the Ian equivalent.

433
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.680
There are some amazing lines in there.

434
00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:48.359
And some extraordinary moments of really, really poignant, sensitive stuff you couldn't do with humanoid characters.

435
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:49.980
There's that, do you remember when they...

436
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:51.539
Stick someone's head in a pool.

437
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:52.200
Exactly.

438
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:57.779
They talk about making mouths to the sky by drilling holes, but of course, that acid can pour through the walls.

439
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:02.519
Hemini dies, plugging the lava flow, and her body is left as a carcass.

440
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:03.660
They were going to actually leave it there.

441
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:06.119
No, they do.

442
00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:07.019
There's a shot.

443
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:07.980
It's anemone.

444
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:15.299
There's a shot of her. like everyone else walks off and then we just go her with her head stuck in the acid. extraordinary.

445
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:22.559
The only thing that brings it down is Hetra jumping up and down in that moment and saying something that sounds exactly like, uh, uh, twat rag.

446
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.440
Really does.

447
00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:26.640
Does that like that?

448
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:55.619
There are some, there is, yeah, look, there's some really deep, you know, you'll, again, we mentioned before with his, um, promulgation of the animus, you know, the, the animus is the male, uh, shadow of every woman, just as the animal is our female um, self as men in the, in this world and um, it's often our shadow self or our negative that's also polar opposite.

449
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:00.000
It's interesting that the animals, Annie Moose, as she's known.

450
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:05.519
Monoptera, anyway, is has an amazing voice.

451
00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:07.619
It's Fleming, is her name, is it?

452
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:08.280
And a female book.

453
00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:12.719
Yes, and yet she's known as the animus, which is the male, the male archetype.

454
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:16.139
And of course she's called a bladder, isn't she, in there?

455
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:20.940
Space Bladder in wherever it's referred to.

456
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.860
Is that in about time?

457
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.260
Yeah, no, it's in the notes.

458
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:28.019
It's referred to in the 80s, which doesn't really help.

459
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:29.880
But yeah, it's a carsonate.

460
00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:38.280
So this is, again, I guess we're coming back to the same ideas that they were talking about in Planet of Giants, that this is the cancer taking over the world.

461
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:47.579
And and wasn't this around the time that, um, Uh, the guy hypothesis started being called?

462
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:48.239
I thought.

463
00:34:48.300 --> 00:34:58.380
The planet Bortis itself may not be an organism, but an organism has invaded it, but is seen as a cancer on it and disrupts the natural order to the point that water turns to acid.

464
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.739
Well, I think you could, you know, like it's probably a standard thing.

465
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:06.360
You don't need the guy hypothesis to draw an analogue between the world and an organism.

466
00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:07.199
Do you know what I mean?

467
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:12.119
Because it's, you know, there's all these feedback loops and and things like that.

468
00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:14.639
And so it's a fairly standard metaphor.

469
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:16.440
And so I think that's...

470
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:19.739
I'm just wondering how popular the guy hypothesis was at the time.

471
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:30.599
Because, of course, we're approaching the mid 60s in counterculture and flower power and what have you, which doesn't reach Doctor Who for another few years yet, really.

472
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:41.460
There's some shades of it in the following year with Dodo and Ben Polly all being part of that culture towards the end of season 3 in Club Inferno.

473
00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:44.880
It's meant to be about communism.

474
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.280
Bill Strutton is an Australian writer who did this.

475
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:59.940
You know, he got this, he said, from putting when he was a little boy, in Adelaide, putting his finger in an old oil can, when he saw 2 bullants fighting, it was really badly bitten, that was, and memory that he had, he said, for the rest of his life.

476
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.619
There's a lot of other things in this.

477
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:13.199
But yeah, he said it's so trope about communism and that the zabi represent the workers, but I don't really see how that works because they don't have any consciousness themselves.

478
00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:16.800
They're not downtrodden inhabitants at all, are they?

479
00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:18.780
And once they're freed, they just go back to being cattle.

480
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:19.860
They dance.

481
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.820
They do that.

482
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:21.780
They do have a dance.

483
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.639
They smash into the camera. they, you know.

484
00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:27.659
Maybe he's sort of trying to say that with like the workforce or the populace.

485
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:33.300
Any philosophy, the workforce that the populace have by themselves is not inherently good or evil.

486
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.639
It is how a controlling force.

487
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.500
Oh, I like that. uses that.

488
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:57.420
And the thing is, when the monotra are talking about what their life was before, you're still kind of left with the sense that, okay, that's a bit problematic that, okay, now the zombie have a degree of autonomy but are being used for evil, but if they're not being used for evil, they have no autonomy, if they're not capable of evil, they have no autonomy.

489
00:36:57.659 --> 00:37:08.639
But in that last scene, we don't see the Monopra, Using or taking advantage of the zombie, we actually see them guiding the zombie to the water and looking after them.

490
00:37:08.699 --> 00:37:23.699
So there's the sense that maybe something will change because I kind, when I hear the Menoptera say that, oh, the zabi were our cattle and they were mindless beasts, there's this subtext of maybe if we didn't treat them like cattle.

491
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.519
Maybe if they weren't just dumb animals.

492
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:34.320
Wasn't this broadcast at the time that or just it was this year in 65 that Gambia was given independence by Britain.

493
00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:36.360
Yes, of course.

494
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:39.960
So you've got, I think, political stuff with it.

495
00:37:40.019 --> 00:37:41.400
Yeah, fire dissolving.

496
00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:44.699
I don't like the idea of trying to find a political thing here.

497
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:46.260
I mean, it resonates.

498
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.219
Yeah, I know, but I think he's, I mean, you know, red conning movie.

499
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:51.300
I think he probably is.

500
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.980
I mean, the whole, I think that the point is that this is so strange and otherworldly.

501
00:37:56.039 --> 00:38:09.599
And while it does have things that resonate like your cancer analogy, which is sort of kind of explicitly there in the dialogue, it's just about being terribly strange and confronting the viewers.

502
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:10.320
Yeah, yeah.

503
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:15.239
I'm someone who's very much deeping in that a work cannot be written in a political vacuum.

504
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:21.360
Whether you want it to or not, politics in the world around you is going to influence what you're writing.

505
00:38:21.420 --> 00:38:34.860
Well, I think I think that that's, I think that that's true, but this is one where you can see why there would be a motive to claim some political relevance for it, given that it looks just like a whole lot of wacky people leaping about in ad costumes.

506
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:35.820
Do you know what I mean?

507
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.340
It's not just that costumes.

508
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.699
It's a very serious work of political polemic.

509
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.559
But in fact, do you know what I mean?

510
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:44.579
I think it is...

511
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.679
I don't think I certainly don't think it's serious.

512
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:50.039
I just think a political reading can be argued.

513
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:51.300
Yeah, yeah.

514
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:55.320
No one clearly Strutton's trying to do that, but I think I think he's reaching a bit, to be honest.

515
00:38:55.380 --> 00:38:59.940
I reckon you've got a whole PhD in this one story if you just want to look at references.

516
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:04.139
So I actually can't believe that Rod doesn't have anything to say about the web planner.

517
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:10.380
Well, aside from every episode saying it's the Monoptera, again, get the bug spray.

518
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:15.179
He did say to me, please tell me they don't come back to this planet.

519
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:16.380
Why would anyone want to go back?

520
00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:20.219
And I said, well, big finish did return to the web planet.

521
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:20.820
Did they?

522
00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:21.360
It's great.

523
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:25.440
Yeah, it's pretty good With Peter Davidson and Sarah Sutton.

524
00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:30.480
So I said the 5th doctor comes back to which Rod's reply was, lucky him.

525
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:31.860
I hope he brings the Daleks.

526
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:33.900
That's so mean.

527
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:38.280
What with the point of an audio of the web Planet B, that just seems crazy.

528
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:41.039
Well, you do get the car alarms, Arby's going on.

529
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.679
You can tell when the zombie are there.

530
00:39:43.739 --> 00:39:50.880
And it has the recently and sadly departed Sam Kelly as the lead monotra.

531
00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:53.940
So I don't think we can question it because he's just brilliant.

532
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.619
It's really nicely done.

533
00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:56.400
I actually like it.

534
00:39:56.460 --> 00:40:01.320
Well, it's the best of what this show should be.

535
00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:05.280
And because it's audio. you've got those beautiful pictures Yeah, exactly.

536
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:08.940
So yeah, without without the visual limitations of television.

537
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:17.159
They still explore what Monopra culture is like, because one of the Monopra characters has no wings, so they discuss what it's like to be a Monopra with no wings.

538
00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:19.440
I always thought that was terribly sad in the show.

539
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:21.239
Yeah, when wings get...

540
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:22.500
That guy then has no wings.

541
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:27.179
But I think the point is that it's, you know, crazy looking things on TV.

542
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:28.079
Do you know what I mean?

543
00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:30.480
Like it is, yeah, I don't know.

544
00:40:30.539 --> 00:40:32.460
I don't think I would want it in my imagination.

545
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:39.960
One final web planet link is obviously there's a fair bit of Australian involvement in the web planet.

546
00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:41.639
Bill Strutton, the writer of Australian.

547
00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:46.559
Rosalind De Winter, insect choreographer and Vreston was Australian.

548
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:49.260
And another Australian connection.

549
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:52.199
Now, I'm not sure if she is Australian, but she certainly came to live in Australia.

550
00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:57.719
Barbara Joss, who plays Nemini, the Opera, who gives up her life to save everyone from the acid.

551
00:40:57.780 --> 00:40:59.699
Did move to Australia after this.

552
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.079
She did Skippy.

553
00:41:01.139 --> 00:41:02.460
She did Skippy?

554
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:02.880
Skippy?

555
00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:06.659
She did. which is currently being shown at 6.30 AM on Gem.

556
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.960
I think it might be maybe catcher soon, yeah.

557
00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:12.599
She became a businesswoman here in Australia.

558
00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:20.880
And in 2005, she actually came along to who, who, to a who mentioned, which I was hosting.

559
00:41:21.179 --> 00:41:25.199
And she was a very, very interesting woman.

560
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:33.900
She had in previous years to that, had breast cancer and had to have a masectomy of breast removed.

561
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:40.199
And so as well as talking about her time on the show, she had written a book about her experiences.

562
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:41.820
So we talked about that for the audience.

563
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:54.960
And um, What was really nice about that was 1st of all, I have since had familiar familial experience of cancer, but I hadn't had it at that time.

564
00:41:54.960 --> 00:42:00.360
And I think that helped me when that did happen because I had spoken to her about her experience with cancer.

565
00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:05.880
But what was wonderful, this was in late 2005, so it was just after the 1st season, the new series.

566
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:16.380
And as such, we had a lot more women coming to who mentioned because of the impact of the character of rogues.

567
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:25.619
And Barbara Joss herself was sort of tentative that comes to the convention because she's like, you know, I'd like to talk about my book, but I can't imagine any Doctor Who founds to be interested in that.

568
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:30.179
I had to say to her, well, no, no, we love to hear about what people have done since Doctor Who.

569
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.579
And she brought about 30 copies of the book along.

570
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:35.880
And during her autographing session, her book sold out.

571
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:54.900
And there were loads of women in their late teens, 20s, 30s and older, and every woman who came up to speak to her said, I just wanted to thank you for coming here and saying that because it's, it's something I fear or it's something in my family and it's so nice to hear someone talk frankly about it.

572
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.679
And Barbara was just amazed and touched.

573
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:01.260
And I haven't heard from Barbara in years.

574
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:08.400
I do hope she's still with us because she was such such an open, funny, enthusiastic.

575
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:10.860
Yeah, she brought it all home, didn't she?

576
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:11.639
She brought it all.

577
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:17.760
She brought it all home and she was a little bit horrified, I have to say, when we did show her bits of the web planet.

578
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:21.539
She sort of went, oh, God, is that what it looked like?

579
00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:27.539
I was terribly nervous because this was the 1st big convention I hosted and she played a trick on me.

580
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:31.380
And what that was, was after we showed her that clip.

581
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:34.320
I turned to her and said, so what can you tell us about filming that scene?

582
00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:37.019
Oh, darling, I don't remember anything about it at all.

583
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:38.400
Fair enough.

584
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.659
Was it Patrick Trouser?

585
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:53.519
But then I just looked horrified and 5 seconds later, she's like, oh, no, you know, Billy used to bring in a chicken and then Jackie and Russ used to bring in a turkey, another turkey, a salad, and it was like this.

586
00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:56.340
And she actually went on for half an hour about what the filming was actually like.

587
00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:01.440
But just for that split second. like, oh my, this kid, I don't remember that. knows nothing about Doctor Who.

588
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:03.539
And she just had everyone in stitches.

589
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:09.659
So yeah, that's just my my addendum to the web planet discussion.

590
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:24.780
Well, we're moving that to Earth now at breakneck speed into the 12th century to experience the crusade.

591
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:27.480
We've got another big star.

592
00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:31.800
We had Derek Francis, who was probably the biggest name in TV that we've had after this point.

593
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:33.840
We've got Julian Bloody Glover.

594
00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:35.219
And Jean.

595
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:38.579
Jean, I should just done Shakespeare on Broadway.

596
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:44.940
Just that season before doing this, but Glover was a seriously big name, even back in the day too.

597
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:50.760
It's really nice watching this and thinking, hmm, you know why he just disappears at the end of episode four, Nigel, through episode three?

598
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.280
because Scaroff's called him Matt for another one.

599
00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:55.500
And you can actually watch it.

600
00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:59.880
I did what when we had to do it for this podcast, watch it and go, what if it actually is Careth?

601
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:00.239
You know what?

602
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:02.460
It almost works watching it as Scarov.

603
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.559
And the whole dissociation with his sister.

604
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:06.719
Where do we want to start?

605
00:45:06.780 --> 00:45:09.239
There's so much in this, isn't there?

606
00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:10.619
Well, it's different.

607
00:45:10.619 --> 00:45:14.639
It's a, it's a, yet another historical where Barbara gets a really strong role to play.

608
00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:22.619
And, you know, she does use a little bit of her knowledge of history, but mostly she uses her cultural knowledge.

609
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:26.880
And speaking of culture, let's just say it, say it now.

610
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:30.179
The Arabic characters are played by white guys in blackface.

611
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.300
Yeah, but they were, but by Bernard Kay.

612
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:34.679
Okay.

613
00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:36.059
This is called Shakespeare.

614
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:41.880
Traditionally, BBC actors, you know, you saw...

615
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:45.420
No, Anthony Hopkins playing Othello in the business.

616
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.699
It a bit ripe for the colour then, too.

617
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.559
The culture, the Arabic culture, is actually represented with a lot of respect.

618
00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:53.340
A lot of respect.

619
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.840
And Berner K is such a strong part.

620
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:56.760
Berner K, Roger Avon.

621
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:59.519
I mean, of course, Walter Randall's the villain.

622
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:13.800
But those 2 and the chat playing Bender here, the comedy sort of merchant. each represent a different view of Arabic culture.

623
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:17.699
They represent the aristocracy in the 1st 2 and the worker class in the latter.

624
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:28.440
But the, their culture is never sent up and you get burner K later later on and his daughter as sort of the the middle 2 work class showing you what a family is like there.

625
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:39.420
And they're just such well-rounded characters in a time where you may not expect non-white culture to be so well represented in television.

626
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.019
In fact, acting on Richard's advice.

627
00:46:43.139 --> 00:46:54.179
I got the David Whittaker novelisation of the Crusade, which is called Doctor Who and the Crusaders, and it was just recently re-released, as you mentioned, that was on the Kindle.

628
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:56.219
And it actually starts.

629
00:46:56.280 --> 00:47:05.039
It has an opening scene. in the TARDIS, because this sort of famously starts with the TARDIS materialising and the crew coming out of it, I think.

630
00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:07.199
He leaves the handbrake off this time.

631
00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:10.739
It doesn't make a knife. sound several times this season, yeah.

632
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:17.460
So the scene inside the Tartars has them talking about why they can't interfere with the past.

633
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:26.039
Which is something that I actually think fundamentally completely dams historicals as an idea and that's why they have to go away because they can't really do anything.

634
00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:32.039
You know, the rules are the rules are they can't affect the past, so that's really not very interesting.

635
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:35.400
All they get to do is sort of escape and then...

636
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:39.300
Every single adventure is the past because it's all relative. where you've just come from.

637
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:46.320
But it is that thing where once the doctor's a heroic figure, he can't really participate interestingly in those sort of stories.

638
00:47:46.380 --> 00:48:02.039
But the other conversation is something about right and wrong, and like I read it a little while ago now, so it's a little bit hazy, but, but the doctor speculates, what would it be like to be involved in a situation where both opposing sides were in the right?

639
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.800
And it's so very clearly, no, no, no, not they just think they're right.

640
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:08.820
That's every conflict.

641
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.480
But they are actually both good people, you know.

642
00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:22.260
And so, and so there is this thing where, you know, Saladin sends presence to Richard and Joanne.

643
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:27.300
Yes, and there is a sort of mutual respect and that sort of thing.

644
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:31.800
And so the Saracens are not are not villains in this at all.

645
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:33.000
They're like, here is.

646
00:48:33.059 --> 00:48:38.159
But, but certainly not, um, Salador, his brother. yeah.

647
00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:41.820
And so I think that that is sort of interesting.

648
00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:50.820
The story is a little bit harmed by the fact that only 2 episodes exist and the recons are not great.

649
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:57.000
And so I did actually find myself wandering off and wondering when the pteroleptils would arrive.

650
00:48:57.059 --> 00:48:58.019
Yeah, sure.

651
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:02.099
But the premise is so strong getting back to what you were saying because that for me really clinches it.

652
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:10.260
I feel it's the strongest script we've had in the show so far, and it's probably the strongest script we have for a while in the series, it's my take on it anyway.

653
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:14.219
Historically, and where Britain was in 1965.

654
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:23.460
It's a really nice take on imperialism and judging exactly where it was, what we were seeing as Britain and what an empire is.

655
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:28.500
We've got to remember the, The stuff that was still going on at the time culturally.

656
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:34.079
There's a really sweet little ladybird book that came out right at the same time, if you remember those things, Peter and Jane learned to read.

657
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:36.420
Richard I or Richard the Lionheart.

658
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:46.440
It had scenes of him crushing the, it came out the same time as, um, at the 1st aired, and looking all terribly Errol Flynn in the tablet and with a St.

659
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:50.880
George Cross, and really, hey, whacken into the poorly dressed infidel.

660
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:59.519
And a shot of another illustration, lovely watercolour, of Richard with his huge, strong, glinting sabre held up.

661
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:00.480
Hello, Dr. Freud.

662
00:50:00.539 --> 00:50:07.800
And there's Saladin with a very fine scimitar cutting through a little handkerchief that's flittering in the air.

663
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:09.840
It was a symbolism of that, man.

664
00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:11.039
That apparently goes back.

665
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:17.219
Um, I'd like to have a look at where this is coming from and what this actually was because.

666
00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:31.800
This is probably the most significant thing for, if you go back to, this was the 3rd crusade, wasn't it, the one with the Richard, the Richard I. The Crusades kind of started, okay, Crusades kind of started with Pope Urban II, Keith to his mates.

667
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:41.460
In 109, 1095, when he answered a call from the Eastern Roman Emperor, which was Alexia's 1st Comnitness, I think.

668
00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:43.199
No, don't ask me.

669
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:45.059
I know, nothing.

670
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:52.019
But anyway, he called to liberate Eastern Christianity and the Holy Sepulchra, the Holy City of Jerusalem.

671
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:57.059
And the pope answered, this is at the Clermont Assembly in 1095.

672
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:09.480
Pope Urban said, um, whoever for devotion alone, not to gain honour or money, goes to Jerusalem to liberate the church of God, can substitute this journey for all penance.

673
00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:11.460
This is pretty remarkable.

674
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:14.460
This is a get out of jail free card for all eternity.

675
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:21.300
If you go along and fight this holy war, all your taxes, all your tides to a church, everything else, there you go. you completely fine.

676
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:26.579
This went on for, well, historians vary, 5 crusades, 8 crusades, some even say 12.

677
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.679
It went definitely until 1291.

678
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:33.119
Actually later, and it's still, you know, people say it still influences the world now.

679
00:51:33.179 --> 00:51:34.380
This is a major, major thing.

680
00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:46.980
By the time we got to, this 3rd crusade, it was, as you did, as, which you could describes it, and as you just said, a very elegant dance between 2 opposing forces, Richard did.

681
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:49.739
There's a lovely line when Billy says you will see Jerusalem.

682
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:50.519
He did.

683
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:54.300
He came within 12 miles, I believe it was, twice.

684
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:57.360
Yeah, in January and then in June, July of 1192.

685
00:51:57.599 --> 00:51:59.340
This show is actually really accurate.

686
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:12.300
It's a little out with some of its timing, but the whole getting, um, offering Joanna's hand, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, did actually happen, but it happened 6 months before this narrative.

687
00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:16.860
We know this is November 1191, I think.

688
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:17.760
Yeah, it is.

689
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:21.659
We think is a great writer, great research on all this.

690
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:44.880
It was an interesting meeting of formalised ideas within chivalry and court etiquette, and it becomes like any great story of empires that are meeting, about the subtleties of exchange and the subtleties of language and diplomacy.

691
00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:48.000
And we get that reflected in some really great lives.

692
00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:54.300
You notice that whenever Julian Glover comes on the scene, suddenly it all goes blank verse and everyone stands up a bit straight and acts proper.

693
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:57.119
And he actually does speak some of his lines up.

694
00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:58.920
There is some, like, first.

695
00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:05.519
And what the other thing I really like about this story, unless you want to go on more about the historical stuff.

696
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:07.800
Because you don't know.

697
00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:10.980
Well, it's just like, I really love you.

698
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:17.039
I really do love this period of history and what, and just how much it's, um, It's influenced later history.

699
00:53:17.099 --> 00:53:25.260
But it's that the doctor and the TARDIS crew almost negated by the entire narrative and really almost have nothing to do.

700
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:32.579
They're an accidental aside, and it makes it much more fragile and much more dangerous for everyone involved.

701
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:35.340
It really is just surviving for the 4 episodes.

702
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:36.539
See, I hate that.

703
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:37.559
That's ripping.

704
00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:42.059
That's the thing that I really hate about historicals and it's the thing that I hate about the Aztecs as well.

705
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:50.400
It is that they've really got nothing to do and it is a story that's not a Doctor Who story and the whole purpose of them is to get out of the story.

706
00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:51.480
Do you know what I mean?

707
00:53:51.539 --> 00:53:56.820
So, you know, like it's, like I love Gene Marsh, and I love Julian Glover.

708
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.440
And I love blank verse.

709
00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:00.300
There are 3 things that I really love about this.

710
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:05.460
And there are there is stuff about the portrayal of the conflict, which is sort of fairly interesting.

711
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:09.420
But essentially I just or want them to go out and confront them.

712
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:16.980
What about Billy's ranch with Leicester in front of Richard in the court when you, you know, will you be...

713
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:17.820
It's great.

714
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:22.739
It really posits the doctor as being, I am a man of intellect and learning and I oppose violence.

715
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:26.039
Mind you, wears a skull, because I'll chuck it on the back of your head if you sooner look at me.

716
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:28.019
He's over that now.

717
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:28.920
He was young man.

718
00:54:28.980 --> 00:54:29.940
I was young then.

719
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:41.519
I think it's also another example of something we saw in the Romans and the Aztecs, that Barbara is a driving force in the story.

720
00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:48.539
I do agree that the doctor and Vicki do very little of plot relevance.

721
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:50.760
There's almost just the plot, really, is there?

722
00:54:50.940 --> 00:55:01.320
It's a series of narrative events. sort of the one the conflict, the 1st conflict that could turn up for the doctor and Vicky is, oh, no, what if what if they discovered that Vicky's a girl?

723
00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:02.940
They discover that Vicky's a girl and what do they do?

724
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:03.480
They get her address.

725
00:55:03.539 --> 00:55:04.559
But isn't that great?

726
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:06.239
Oh, yeah, Shakespeare, the boys.

727
00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:07.440
It's a beaut.

728
00:55:07.500 --> 00:55:08.460
It's a beautiful scene.

729
00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:10.980
And Joanna kind of goes, well, hold on, you lied to me.

730
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:12.900
And the doctor says, well, you know, she would have been endangered.

731
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:15.659
And she's like, Joanna's like, oh, oh, well, that's all right.

732
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:19.139
And you also sort of get Jake Marsh going, I want to wear trousers.

733
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.880
Oh, yeah, yeah.

734
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:26.940
But what I find is the one a really wonderful driving force in the story.

735
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.059
Is Barbara's relationship with the Saracens?

736
00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:39.960
Both the nobles at court and being very respectful of Saladin and Sarah...

737
00:55:40.019 --> 00:55:40.619
Safadin.

738
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:42.119
Saffidin and Saladin.

739
00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:53.159
And you think at one moment you think it's about, you know, in the direction of the Arabian Nights when she starts talking about her travels and they kind of go, oh, that's very interesting, but it is a novelisation.

740
00:55:53.219 --> 00:56:01.199
There's a lot of stuff, like there's a there's a chapter where she's sort of shared Zardi, you know, and just telling stories about crazy ants and stuff.

741
00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:03.539
Over whom the fate of death.

742
00:56:03.539 --> 00:56:04.559
Yeah, yeah.

743
00:56:04.619 --> 00:56:05.460
Yeah.

744
00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:29.639
But when Barbara escapes from Elakia at the end of episode 2 and spends episode 3 with Harun and Sadia, the father and daughter, if Barbara hadn't been there, People wouldn't have been searching for it, but she also is told by Harun, you know, if the if the guards discover you kill my daughter.

745
00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:33.000
So she is not taken to Ella care.

746
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.980
And Barbara Instant goes, no, I'm not going to kill it.

747
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:36.360
You stay here and hide.

748
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:37.800
I will give myself up.

749
00:56:37.860 --> 00:56:45.539
And, you know, we've already discussed how the memory of World War II was still large in people's minds.

750
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:47.460
It's Anne Frank.

751
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:54.179
Oh, that element is and that nobility of giving herself up.

752
00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:01.019
And but it's also because she gives herself up. that Harun is able to join Ian in rescuing her.

753
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:04.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the noble sacrifice becomes a triumph.

754
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:08.340
I think, and that's where the historicals work very well.

755
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:09.300
And I do agree with you.

756
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:16.440
The story becomes hamstrung when the characters can't become part of big events and that's the thing with the doctor and Vicky.

757
00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:20.699
They actually do try to change the big events and sort of talk Richard round.

758
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:35.159
And so something big happens in, he loses trust in them through no fault of their own, and that's kind of what Whittaker's saying in his introduction of the novel that something else will happen to change the history.

759
00:57:35.219 --> 00:57:37.019
But a small life.

760
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:45.960
A life who that isn't a king or a Saracen lord, that can be changed and that you can influence that for the better.

761
00:57:46.019 --> 00:57:52.679
And it's not, we're not clubbed over the head with that, but it's just, it's just sort of there and it's, and it's really lovely.

762
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:55.860
And a part I really loved about the novel. many years since I read it.

763
00:57:55.920 --> 00:58:05.880
But when Ian goes to rescue Barbara, the sort of romantic subtext we have between Ian and Barbara in the TV series becomes screaming text in the hands of David Whittaker.

764
00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:08.159
Yeah, he's very convinced that they're a couple.

765
00:58:08.219 --> 00:58:13.139
Yeah, Ian, like you're constantly getting Ian's thought processor, if she's dead, I don't know what to do.

766
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:15.300
I can't go on without her.

767
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.719
And then when he sees her, like his heart fills with relief.

768
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:21.059
That's how I feel when I see her.

769
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:21.599
Yes.

770
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:24.059
Well, I think, yeah, we're all a little bit in love with Barbara.

771
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:24.780
But...

772
00:58:24.780 --> 00:58:27.300
I'm sorry, Nathan.

773
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:45.480
I agree that there is some problem with historicals, but I think this one is perfect because everyone tries to do something and it's a triumph for the individual life over the institution, especially the royal institution of the Middle Ages, which was, you know, that they're the only important people.

774
00:58:45.539 --> 00:59:04.739
It's like, no, the important people in this story are Harun and Sadia. who are just a father and daughter who have been through horrible hardship, and you could argue that without Barbara there, they would have never been noticed, but with Barbara there, they get a chance to kill the person who's been oppressing them and has kidnapped the guy's other daughters and they rescue them.

775
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:07.920
Look, look, I think Elaki is good.

776
00:59:07.980 --> 00:59:16.260
I think that Barbara's thing is good, but you have to agree that episode 4 would have been vastly improved if there had been a shriven Zar.

777
00:59:17.219 --> 00:59:21.000
Well, I don't know.

778
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.960
We're all reasonable people.

779
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:44.219
I feel that this is an historical romance in every sense and there's so much driving. you've just beautifully pointed out that interplay on every level, not least of which is a romance, is that between Saladin and Richard, perhaps this dance that they both perform sending gifts of sweetmeats and snow when they're...

780
00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:47.699
Historically, Richard sailed away when he was ill.

781
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:53.460
Um, And left Acre and um, Saladin died 6 months later.

782
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:56.340
I'd like to say a broken heart.

783
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.679
But yeah, truly they did.

784
00:59:58.739 --> 01:00:11.760
It was almost as if that separation, the greatest conflict and the greatest territory of their lives was this moment and was just as much of a romantic involvement as every other level in both historically and in the narrative.

785
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:14.159
Like the camaraderie of...

786
01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:15.480
And the fraternity.

787
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:16.380
Yeah.

788
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:19.920
It's a theme of fraternity in this series, definitely.

789
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:21.360
Fraternity and ants.

790
01:00:21.420 --> 01:00:23.400
That's the one, flight through fraternity.

791
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:27.780
Oh, did we mention they were?

792
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:30.480
In fact, there is another skirmish of India.

793
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:31.139
Yes, of course.

794
01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:35.219
Oh, I accidentally mentioned that in state down.

795
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:38.159
Yeah. and ants.

796
01:00:38.219 --> 01:00:39.599
Is it Tuti Lemka?

797
01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:43.139
I believe it's Tuti Lemko doing it, but intro...

798
01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:44.219
It's Lemkov.

799
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:47.460
I'm assuming that that OW is...

800
01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:47.940
I like it.

801
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:49.559
I just like...

802
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:51.960
He's once a season, isn't he?

803
01:00:52.019 --> 01:00:53.579
He's scandalous.

804
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:54.900
He's Michael Sheer.

805
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:57.360
He made Marco Poland.

806
01:00:57.420 --> 01:01:01.619
And then when Michael Sheard turns up in season three, we never see Tooty Lemkoff again.

807
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:02.699
Coincidence?

808
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:03.960
I think so.

809
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:05.579
Maybe, don't you think?

810
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.280
Maybe he had surgery of some kind.

811
01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:10.199
Yes, surgery to his name.

812
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:23.519
But another behind the scenes titbit about that scene of Ian getting staked out in the desert, for the inserts of, for the inserts of his actual arm and the ants on his arm.

813
01:01:23.579 --> 01:01:30.539
William Russell was called for a filming day, but said, no, I don't want to do that because that's actual honey.

814
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:31.980
Those are actual ants. don't want to do that.

815
01:01:32.039 --> 01:01:38.219
And so it was the production assistant, Victor's Rotellus, who went on to direct episodes of Blake 7.

816
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:41.820
No, the 2nd last episode of Blake's episode, Blake 7, Warlord.

817
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:45.659
He went on to direct that as well as other productions as well.

818
01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:49.500
He actually stepped in and it's his arm smothered in honey and ants.

819
01:01:49.500 --> 01:01:58.619
And he did say that they didn't buy him, but he quite understands why William Russell didn't want to do it. to a major cast member, isn't it?

820
01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:00.059
Speaking of major castle members.

821
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:03.300
Do you know who was up for it if Julian Glover was not available?

822
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:09.000
And was almost not going to be available because of his stage commitments, none other than Nicholas Courtney.

823
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:09.300
Yes.

824
01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:10.440
Would have played Richard first.

825
01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:14.280
So they would have played brother and sister again.

826
01:02:14.460 --> 01:02:16.679
Again for the 1st time.

827
01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:19.260
I may be wrong on this.

828
01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.079
Both of your historical knowledge is better than mine.

829
01:02:22.139 --> 01:02:27.480
But is it true that there was some talk that Richard and Joanna may have been more than just siblings?

830
01:02:27.539 --> 01:02:30.659
No, no, no, no, no. script and Billy outlawed it.

831
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:32.940
It's in Whittaker's script that's definitely...

832
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:34.079
Richard was supposed to be gay.

833
01:02:34.139 --> 01:02:36.900
Well, look, we don't actually have much references to that.

834
01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:42.900
We have 2 extent ones is that he shared a bed with another gentleman or several other gentlemen.

835
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.000
People always say, oh, but everyone did it, though.

836
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:46.139
They actually did.

837
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:47.099
Beds were very rare.

838
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:48.179
Probably normal.

839
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:52.559
A bunch of good friends would get into bed together, just to chat, actually.

840
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:55.019
It was very hard to hunt down a fresh bed.

841
01:02:55.139 --> 01:02:56.519
No, they really did do it.

842
01:02:56.579 --> 01:02:57.239
I could imagine.

843
01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:04.920
I seemed very happy to leave Berengaria in the acre or acme or wherever the hell that was.

844
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:16.679
I think it's more to do with, he actually considered, he didn't say exactly these words, but he considered England something of a pit, and he was really glad to get away from it and a lovely son and having a bit of a romp and save his soul.

845
01:03:16.739 --> 01:03:20.159
No, he saw this as an expansion of the empire and also that the infidels.

846
01:03:20.219 --> 01:03:27.900
What this holy crusade was actually about, this murdering Jews on their way, there was a huge massacre of Jews in York in 1096.

847
01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:30.900
So this is almost 100 years before this 3rd crusade.

848
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:35.760
And there was another massacre of Jews on the way for this 3rd one, but it was...

849
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:37.920
Christians and stuff incidentally as well.

850
01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:40.019
I mean, it's all just terrible, crazy.

851
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:45.780
But it was really just about, let's put our mark put the Christian mark across Europe once and for all.

852
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.539
And take it as far east as we can.

853
01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:50.519
Can we go into space now?

854
01:03:50.579 --> 01:03:51.960
I think we can.

855
01:03:52.019 --> 01:03:53.880
Well, we will be going to space for that.

856
01:03:53.940 --> 01:04:01.860
Sadly, all we have time for on this episode of Flight Through Entirety, but we will be back next week, your time, and after a lubric, our time.

857
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.599
So, gentlemen, would you like to say goodbye?

858
01:04:03.659 --> 01:04:05.400
Well, good, good night for me.

859
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:07.199
And good night for the infidels.

860
01:04:07.260 --> 01:04:09.480
Infidels everywhere.

861
01:04:09.539 --> 01:04:10.920
Sleep well.

862
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:20.760
You have been listening to Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Botley, Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone.

863
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:25.559
This episode, why can't I wear trousers, when it's recorded on Sunday, the 6th of July, 2014.

864
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:28.380
The next episode will be released on August the third.

865
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:34.739
You can find us at Flightcherentirety.com, flat your entirety on Facebook and iTunes or FTE podcast on Twitter.

866
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:37.260
We're all right, but we're not all that good.

867
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:46.980
Okay, so Brendan, future, Brendan, you're dropping that bit into episode two.

868
01:04:47.039 --> 01:04:48.119
So there you go.

869
01:04:48.179 --> 01:04:50.340
Don't say I never give you anything.

870
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.619
Oh, I talked to future Nathan as well.

871
01:04:55.380 --> 01:05:00.119
You know, like in class, in the middle of conversations with other people, that sort of thing.