WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:46:02

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Welcome back for part 2 of Hartnell's 2nd season.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Richard And we're just going to get straight into it with, ah

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that charming Latin music for the Romans.

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Brilliant.

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I can't hear it either, is obviously my musical ability shot.

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No, no, no, it's all right, but it's not that good.

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Which is more than one can say for the Revans, which is all right

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and back.

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Well, I think it's terrific.

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And I went on record last season as saying that I was rather bored

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with stories that don't have Sontarans in them. um and kind of

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limits that they all.

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It can't wait until we get to the end of time. fantastic.

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No, historicals.

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Do you know what I mean?

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The pure historical. which is a big feature of the Hartnell years

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you know, they basically alternate between historicals and sort of

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sci-fi adventure.

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And I did say that while I could see that the Aztecs were sort of

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fairly worthy that it didn't really grab me.

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And I really think that this is the right way to do a historical.

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Now, this is some Dennis Spooner.

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Dennis Spooner?

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Yes.

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Who did...

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Reign of Terror.

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Last year.

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And we all thought that was a bit of a misfire.

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But you can see what he's attempting to do in Reign of Terror, and

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what he actually gets right. here, which is not to put the regular

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cast in a particular time period, but to set them free in a

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particular kind of story.

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So, uh, Reign of Terror is the sort of Scarlet Pimpernel thing and

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it has all of those things that, you know, you're used to from

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that kind of story.

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And then the Romans does this with ancient Rome.

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So, you know, we do have a historical event.

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We've got the great fire of London, a great fire of London.

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No.

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London.

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London.

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We do have a historical event, the Great Fire of Rome.

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But really, the fun of this comes from getting our regulars and

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setting them loose in an ancient Rome story.

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And it does have all of the things that you expect an ancient Rome

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story to have.

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So it's got gladiators, you know, it's got people rowing galleys

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you know, it's got Nero.

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The only thing it doesn't have, and perhaps the big, the big

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emission, is any mention of eating dormice.

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But they do eat ants, eggs.

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They do eat ants.

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It's okay.

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So that nearly counts.

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So the weird Roman food thing.

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Fortunately, Pfizer Pompeii gets the dormice thing, right?

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And in scene three, we do have Kaikilius saying that he'd really

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sort of rather fancy a dormouse.

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I think that that's that's essentially why this works.

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And when it's tried again in the future, next season we'll see the

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gunfighters, which does that, setting the regulars in free in an

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environment with really, really strong genre tropes, you know?

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So I think that that's the absolute high points of this approach.

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But this is, this is certainly, um, This is certainly sort of

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working along the same lines.

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So I guess the smugglers does that a bit with pirates and stuff.

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I haven't seen Highlanders.

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You're almost up to it.

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I'm nearly up to it. doing very well.

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I am doing very well.

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But so I don't know whether that's like that, whether but the idea

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is less putting them in historical period and having them, you

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know, need to escape, but more giving them, you know, fun, um

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interactions with a different kind of story, one that they're not

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used to.

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And then I think, also the way that it begins, I think, is really

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really particularly strong, and that is, they've been in the place

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for a month.

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There's that hilarious, the hilarious opening, isn't it?

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where...

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Yeah, it's the original cliffhanger.

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They fall up a cliff.

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And then Ian's lying there and you kind of think, oh, he's

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unconscious.

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And then these grapes come into view and it turns out that they're

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just lying around a villa and have been for a month and they're

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having a lovely time and they're sort of relaxing.

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And in fact, Vicky's a little bit because she thought they were

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going to have sort of fun adventures and stuff and all they've

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been doing is sort of hanging around.

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And I suppose with Vicky, in a way, you know, even though she was

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a prisoner and pretty much alone in the previous story.

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She's already had lying around inside and eating all day, you

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know?

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Okay, this is a much nicer situation, but for Vicky, it's like

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well, yeah, I was already in one prison.

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This is just another kind of prison.

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Even if I am back in history and with nicer people who didn't kill

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my father.

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Yeah, no, I mean, she's, you know, she's bored, but she's also

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bored not just because of her character, but because she's a young

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person, do you know what I mean?

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And so the doctor takes her on an adventure and he's clearly keen

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to kind of impress her and all of that sort of thing.

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And this is really where we see them start to work.

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So you get Barbara and Ian. chasing each other around, doing each

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other's hair, looking just sort of terribly post-coital at times.

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You know, they're clearly on together by this stage.

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And after the doctor and Vicki leave, they are a bit tipsy during

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that whole.

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Oh, there's some more peacock breast in the fridge.

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Oh, the ongoing fridge joke.

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The thing is, it's a dad joke, but it's actually funny because of

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the way they play it.

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Yeah, they're having fun.

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And because it's Barbara who fools Ian the 1st time around when

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he's like the scientific rational one.

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It's like, yeah, it's in the fridge.

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It is, I mean, I think the whole thing is just sort of terribly

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terribly good fun.

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And it does all the things that you expect a Roman story to do.

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And as Richard said last time, you know, the French Revolution was

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something that was covered in history, so the kids knew something

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about that period.

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And the same with this.

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You know, people used to learn Latin at school, bizarrely.

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It's the take on Nero and burning Rome.

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Am I right to say that's tacitus?

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where it comes from?

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It does.

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It's not actually backed up, Bo, is it Cicero?

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It's not also, it's not really backed up by any other historical

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accounts.

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I was, in fact, this kind of bugger.

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No, that's not true.

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Cassius Dion Suetonius and Tacitus all have Nero burning Rome.

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But Tacitus gives a couple of accounts, I think.

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And so he's not sort of completely down on that.

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But there's all sorts of other details.

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You know, it's a perfume.

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I know it was something invented because we should be added at

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this point that my understanding of historians at the time, the

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names you've just mentioned, Tacitus, Suetonius, anti-imperial

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anti, the new construct of Rome, where the Caesar, a king.

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Again, the Senate having lost its powers. any chance they got to

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copper brick and Augustus and all these noble science was well

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taken.

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I think I mean, there is something to that.

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Suetonius is keen to tell kind of thrilling, outrageous stories.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So if they can be scandalous, They will be.

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But there are other accounts that have Nero either away at the

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time or Nero involved in the rescue and so on.

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But, you know, Nero fiddling while Rome burns, you can't not do

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that.

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If you're going to do the Great Fire, he's got to be playing.

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Oh no, for sure.

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I'm just wondering where this, because this is very much, oh, look

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you know, how do you want to admit it?

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is Doctor Who might exactly, if you want to say he lives in an

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alternate universe, you talked about that book cover, for the

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French Revolution in an earthly child, which I think, you know, is

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the primary thing I've taken away from that 1st podcast.

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The book covers alternate from the broadcast version to the

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broadcast version.

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But it's the same with this.

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Maybe Doctor Who and TARDIS actually flicks about not just through

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reality as we know it, but into worlds of fiction.

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It certainly does when it learns in places like the land of

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fiction coming up in the mind robber.

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Maybe this is maybe the TARDIS is now existing in a narrative

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discourse that's purely fantasy.

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I mean, for example, the real Nero outlawed the killing of fallen

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gladiators 5 years before this story is set.

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Do you remember that?

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No.

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Yeah, I haven't, Ancient History at Uni, but that's, there are a

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whole lot of things about footnotes to tacitous and just how that

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I recall, is just how much was political against the current setup

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of the Roman Senate with the season.

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Well, I mean, it just uses, it uses the fun things from, from test

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citizens with tonis, that you know about Nero.

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So there's the fabulous official court poisoner Lacosta.

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Who is actually real in the sense?

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But not played by a prototype.cotton, a June Brown in this one

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because she's, I just see her cropping up an outside iron gron's

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castle lobbing stink bombs over the ball and murder the whole

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bloody lot of them.

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That's not her, though.

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No, but it's almost like...

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I know that is.com.

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No, it's very much that same mould of those British actresses.

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You just don't see anymore because they'll smoke themselves to an

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early grade in the 1960s.

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It is some.

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I mean, she's terrifically funny and she's almost kind of right

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out of I Claudius, isn't she?

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Yeah, it's very much a Robert Graves and it meets carry on.

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Well, Robert Graves, Robert Graves is doing the same thing in I

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Claudius, which we should mention it's a series from 1976, which

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has lots and lots of Doctor Who people in it. including the

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master.

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Roger Derdander?

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Derek Jack.

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Derek Jacoby, who's the star, of course, we own him.

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He's been in Doctor Who.

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I think we own him in more ways than that.

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But, you know, it's all shot in BBC television centre, studio

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one.

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Yeah, it has that lovely studio bound feel.

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Yeah, there's not a frame of location footage anywhere.

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You know, there's a lot of use of the BBC sound effects records

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and stuff to create. tweet, tweet.

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Yeah, yeah, applause and things to create ancient Rome.

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That's how we used to see Shakespeare.

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It is really good.

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If anyone's not seen it, they really should go and buy it

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immediately except that the DVD releases.

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You can watch them.

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It's actually up on YouTube.

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Is it?

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Yeah, it's well worth a look and it certainly is full of Brian

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Blest and Fiona Walker and various other people.

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Christopher Biggins.

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Christopher Biggins is Nero, in fact. in it, oddly enough.

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What else is Christopher Biggins in in Doctor Who?

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Well, he hasn't done a TV Doctor Who, but he has done a wonderful

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big finish audio.

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The one Doctor. where he is impersonating the doctor.

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And who else, which real doctor could he go up against except for

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Colin Baker?

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But for much of the story, Christopher Biggins is actually paired

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up with Bonnie Langford, which is even more delightful than it

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sounds.

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But in terms of the Romans, Christopher Biggins appears on the

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making of the DVD, because, of course, Derek Francis.

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Was it Derek Francis?

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Yeah, Derek Francis, who played Nero in the Romans, is sadly no

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longer with us.

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Yeah, before he died.

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Yeah, while ago.

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So Christopher Biggins appears on, I think, 2 of the special

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features.

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He definitely appears on the one that is about Rome and how the

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Rome we see in the Romans compares to historical Rome.

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00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:46.200
He may also appear on the making of, giving his perspective on how

249
00:11:46.200 --> 00:11:47.580
Nero was played.

250
00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:49.679
Because he's television's near him.

251
00:11:49.679 --> 00:11:50.940
Because he was...

252
00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:51.419
Yeah, exactly.

253
00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:52.559
He was television's Nero.

254
00:11:52.679 --> 00:11:55.919
And they even show clips of him as Nero, and there are design

255
00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:57.120
similarity.

256
00:11:57.179 --> 00:11:58.740
Yeah, yeah, they're both sort of big guys.

257
00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:01.139
They're both sort of ever so slightly camped.

258
00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.159
A smear on top of the score.

259
00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:08.100
And they both have a childlike...

260
00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:11.039
There's a petular aspect.

261
00:12:11.100 --> 00:12:13.679
Yes, but also there's a there's an odd kind of it.

262
00:12:13.740 --> 00:12:16.080
Yeah, but there's that duality with children as well.

263
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:19.379
There's that innocence and that lightness, but there's also the

264
00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:22.080
dark is right at the front and comes straight out there and they

265
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.179
can do appalling acts to ants.

266
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:26.820
They say as a theme is this season, isn't it?

267
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:27.840
Well, at least they're eggs.

268
00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:34.679
So, um, And I guess, I guess the other thing that I want to say

269
00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:39.419
about the story is that it's, it's a comedy and despite all of the

270
00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:39.840
peril.

271
00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:42.659
There's lots of peril which is just fabulously realised by the

272
00:12:42.659 --> 00:12:44.220
insertion of stock footage.

273
00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:45.419
You know, there's...

274
00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:47.639
Like a lion, some waves.

275
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:52.019
The episode two, Cliffhanger is them being menaced by stock

276
00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:53.100
footage of a lion, isn't it?

277
00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:54.120
Or am I, did I?

278
00:12:54.179 --> 00:12:55.259
Well, several angles.

279
00:12:55.679 --> 00:12:58.919
Like different lines from completely different zoos.

280
00:12:58.980 --> 00:12:59.580
Yes.

281
00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:05.519
Um, But all of that stuff, uh, you know, once we get to the palace

282
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:11.940
and the doctor and Vicky keep narrowly missing.

283
00:13:11.940 --> 00:13:12.840
Yeah, Barbara, yeah.

284
00:13:12.899 --> 00:13:15.779
Yeah, and in fact, they end the story, not actually realising that

285
00:13:15.779 --> 00:13:17.460
they've been there.

286
00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:21.779
I think I think Barbara has to tell Vicky in episode one of the

287
00:13:21.779 --> 00:13:25.019
Web Planet that we actually went and met Nero.

288
00:13:25.080 --> 00:13:27.720
So all of that where one runs in and one runs out and they're all

289
00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:28.620
narrowly missing each other.

290
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:31.799
And then you've got, you know, a papaya getting very jealous at

291
00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:38.460
Nero and Nero, like, again trying to, uh, um, being rapey towards

292
00:13:38.460 --> 00:13:39.179
Barbara.

293
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.940
But not in quite... very innocent way.

294
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:43.139
Not in a vasor way.

295
00:13:43.200 --> 00:13:44.340
Not in a vasor way.

296
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.120
And also it's not the sort of story that that keys of marinace

297
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:48.419
is.

298
00:13:48.480 --> 00:13:50.100
No, this is a fate do fast.

299
00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:53.039
The whole year, the French fasting of people just missing each

300
00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:55.080
other coming out of doors and chasing each other around rooms

301
00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:57.539
which we carry on, God all of that from.

302
00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:58.259
That's right.

303
00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:01.980
And maybe, you know, like I have certainly read people criticising

304
00:14:01.980 --> 00:14:05.580
the, I think probably even Sander for criticises the sort of

305
00:14:05.580 --> 00:14:10.919
rapiness of that aspect of the plot, but it isn't, and it's, it

306
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:12.779
it's not really pitched that way, I think.

307
00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:16.620
And so I think it really genuinely works as sort of hilariously

308
00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:16.919
funny.

309
00:14:16.980 --> 00:14:20.220
And there is that line that we quoted before where the doctor does

310
00:14:20.220 --> 00:14:23.399
the emperor's new clothes thing and he's playing the liar too

311
00:14:23.399 --> 00:14:27.840
subtly for everyone to hear and and Nero's response is just

312
00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:28.440
priceless.

313
00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:31.320
You know, it's it's a very funny story.

314
00:14:31.379 --> 00:14:35.639
I think it works terrifically well, and it would have to be my

315
00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:39.840
absolute favourite historical or possibly the only one that I

316
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:40.440
actually like.

317
00:14:41.820 --> 00:14:44.759
Getting back to something you say, because I think it is an

318
00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:50.519
important point to raise, in terms of watching the story now, um

319
00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:55.320
the treatment of Barbara by Nero, and as you sort of describe it

320
00:14:55.320 --> 00:14:58.799
the rapiness of it, and how that compares to Vesor, and I think

321
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:00.600
the important thing to consider he is.

322
00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:06.059
Barbara constantly bests Nero and protects herself.

323
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:11.039
And the situation never becomes physically violent.

324
00:15:11.100 --> 00:15:14.940
There is certainly the inherent and implied violence, but Barbara

325
00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:18.720
uses her knowledge and intellect in order to get out of the

326
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:19.139
situation.

327
00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:24.840
Um, Now, of course, you know, it's still a problematic way to

328
00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:25.980
treat female character.

329
00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:30.000
But I think also at the time, that is what a Roman emperor would

330
00:15:30.000 --> 00:15:30.419
have been like.

331
00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.059
Exactly, and it's treated with great lightness and deathness.

332
00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:33.779
I think that's it.

333
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.019
It would have been terrifying had it really happened, but this is

334
00:15:37.019 --> 00:15:38.820
great comedic work here.

335
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.360
Yeah, I don't want to accuse keys of mariners as being realist of

336
00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:43.559
being realist in any way.

337
00:15:43.620 --> 00:15:44.399
Do you know what I mean?

338
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:47.820
It's ridiculous, but there is a kind of level of genuine threat

339
00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:52.559
and peril that isn't really present here where, like, we're being

340
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.620
assailed by stock tropes of a sort of Roman story.

341
00:15:55.740 --> 00:15:56.519
Do you know what I mean?

342
00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:59.639
It's not, there just isn't that level of threat.

343
00:15:59.700 --> 00:16:03.059
So it is sort of problematic, but it doesn't it doesn't distress

344
00:16:03.059 --> 00:16:04.620
me unduly.

345
00:16:04.679 --> 00:16:08.639
And then they're all sort of just back home and, you know, back to

346
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:11.639
the villa and off again onto new adventures.

347
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:12.299
I think it's just lovely.

348
00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:13.440
I think it works really fast.

349
00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:15.659
My favourite moment in this, going back to what you're just saying

350
00:16:15.659 --> 00:16:20.039
is when Derek Francis saying, Jackie Healer, in close up, and he

351
00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:24.539
just says leans leers towards her, sort of oleaginous cloud, and

352
00:16:24.539 --> 00:16:25.860
just says, close your eyes.

353
00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:27.480
I've got a surprise for you.

354
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:31.080
And Barbara's reaction is pure carry on. raise the what?

355
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:34.139
raise the eyebrows and it's a ring deer.

356
00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.320
Oh, well, of which later?

357
00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:40.980
Well, interestingly, Carry on Cleo came out in 1964.

358
00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:42.059
It did.

359
00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.460
And there's quite a bit of that in this too.

360
00:16:44.519 --> 00:16:44.820
Yeah.

361
00:16:44.879 --> 00:16:46.019
Infamously.

362
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:50.820
Oh, and I think something we haven't mentioned yet for the Romans

363
00:16:50.820 --> 00:16:52.200
that cannot go unremarked.

364
00:16:52.860 --> 00:16:55.740
Beginning of, I think, episode two.

365
00:16:56.100 --> 00:17:00.720
Billy's planning on how to do a recital, turns around.

366
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:04.440
There's Barry Jackson with a sword and Billy just says, right, at

367
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:05.220
a taxi.

368
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:08.819
Throws a curtain over him, throws a chair at him.

369
00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:10.500
Just keeps on fighting him.

370
00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:15.480
Uh, and it's, it's a side we haven't, we have seen Billy getting a

371
00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.500
bit more physical in this season, like in um, in Darlic Invasion

372
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:19.799
of Earth.

373
00:17:19.859 --> 00:17:21.720
He whacks one of the roamen with a stick.

374
00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:27.480
And in the rescue, he does brawl with Coquillion.

375
00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.240
I'm using the definition brawl there of using whatever weapons you

376
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:30.779
have to hand.

377
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:34.920
But this is the 1st time where he seems to go, aha, fisticuffs.

378
00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:36.660
I'll show you, you filthy bounder.

379
00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:39.599
Well, he does actually say how much he enjoys it or, doesn't he?

380
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.660
Yeah, he says, I forget, you know, how much I...

381
00:17:42.779 --> 00:17:45.480
And well, I think he starts with, like, he just turns around and

382
00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.359
sees the guy there, sees the sources, ah, it's a fight you want, do

383
00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:48.539
you?

384
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:52.200
Like, he doesn't he doesn't try to sort of go, oh, now, my dear

385
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.700
chap, how about we, da, da, da.

386
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:58.019
As even John Pertwee would try and talk to someone before fighting

387
00:17:58.019 --> 00:17:58.259
them.

388
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:00.420
But Billy's just like, oh, that'd be so bad.

389
00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:05.519
It's safe to say he's well tasty in a fight in this scene.

390
00:18:05.579 --> 00:18:09.660
This is the doctor that Tom's doctor refers to and he said, oh, you

391
00:18:09.660 --> 00:18:15.180
know, I was taught with and by Cleopatra's 1st warrior, you know

392
00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:17.700
this was definitely Billy who was up for all of that.

393
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:19.859
Didn't he train the mountain mauler of Montana?

394
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:20.759
That's the one.

395
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:23.940
It was Burt Reynolds.

396
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:26.460
In a best, in a best.

397
00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:27.359
In a canoe.

398
00:18:27.420 --> 00:18:29.220
On a float, yes, on a raft.

399
00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:30.839
Did all his own stunts.

400
00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:32.519
Just like Billy.

401
00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:33.240
Well.

402
00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:37.200
And of course, at the end of that soon, Vicky comes in chasing the

403
00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:38.880
bloke with a vase and throws him out a window.

404
00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:41.519
That's good.

405
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:43.920
That's another nice thing is that the stunt extras in this

406
00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:47.220
actually carry the story as much as the principal leads. and

407
00:18:47.220 --> 00:18:52.140
you've got Barry Jackson and the terrific Peter Diamond as stunt

408
00:18:52.140 --> 00:18:55.079
workers who are actually and there's some beautiful going back to

409
00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.640
Robert Greys, but there's actually some lovely Spartacus was

410
00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:01.980
another film that came out, of course, just a couple of years

411
00:19:01.980 --> 00:19:07.200
before Douglas, Kirk Douglas, and Tony Curtis, of course, in that

412
00:19:07.200 --> 00:19:10.259
marvellous, there's a marvellous scene with Lawrence Olivier and

413
00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:13.980
Tony Curtis that's on the cutting room floor, but, you know, the

414
00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:15.779
slave and the master having a bath.

415
00:19:15.839 --> 00:19:17.759
And you don't quite get to that in this.

416
00:19:17.819 --> 00:19:21.119
But there's a real sense, and I shouldn't probably make that make

417
00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.700
so much light of it because there's a real sense of makeship and

418
00:19:23.700 --> 00:19:24.839
camaraderie.

419
00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:29.039
And Ian's 1st chance to actually have someone who's an equal in

420
00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.180
the narrative and bond with that as in friendship.

421
00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.839
And that's that's that really lovely friendship that he and Delos

422
00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:37.680
have.

423
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.259
And I just sort of liked him who was stuck around for the next

424
00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:43.140
adventure because he would have really given a zombie a going.

425
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:48.420
No, it's it's a wonderful sense of fraternity that we do hear

426
00:19:48.420 --> 00:19:50.220
about.

427
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:51.539
Did Rod have anything to say about that?

428
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:57.539
Well, yeah, so Rod's comment on that was Ian gets a very sexy

429
00:19:57.539 --> 00:19:58.799
little bear buddy.

430
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:00.960
To be a dime, it is very beautiful.

431
00:20:01.019 --> 00:20:04.920
We should mention he's in all 3 original Star Wars movies and he's

432
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:09.839
the one that actually grabs Carrie Fisher by the hair buns and

433
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.799
leaps her over the chasm.

434
00:20:10.859 --> 00:20:14.160
He's the one doing the leg..

435
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:15.240
Jedi, yes.

436
00:20:15.299 --> 00:20:18.119
No, he also does the Luke leap on the rock.

437
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.200
I'm so sorry.

438
00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:20.039
That the one you refer to.

439
00:20:20.099 --> 00:20:21.299
Yeah, but, you know, no, but he does.

440
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:22.380
He does all the principal stunts.

441
00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:22.859
Oh, right.

442
00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:26.039
Dave Prowce, he does stuff with him, yeah.

443
00:20:26.099 --> 00:20:31.559
But yeah, that, the sort of, um, fast and loyal friendship we see

444
00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:36.059
between Ian and Delos is exactly what we hear about in historical

445
00:20:36.059 --> 00:20:38.819
context of the Greek and Roman armies at the time.

446
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:44.220
And the sort of concept of and... does bring that out in people.

447
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.420
I think that the real reason that that relationship exists though

448
00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:52.019
is that it's a standard trope of gladiator films.

449
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.319
I just recently watched Pompeii, which is kind of terrible.

450
00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:59.759
But, um, is actually really just essentially a gladiator film.

451
00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:03.480
And so the idea is that 2 people grow to become friends, then

452
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:05.519
they're put in the arena and they have to fight one another.

453
00:21:05.579 --> 00:21:08.640
One of the reasons for D-Loss and and Ian to become friends is so

454
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:13.440
that the stakes are raised in the episode 3 Cliffhanger, which is

455
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:16.920
Dios about to defeat Ian, I think.

456
00:21:16.980 --> 00:21:17.519
Yeah.

457
00:21:17.579 --> 00:21:18.839
Yeah.

458
00:21:18.900 --> 00:21:21.599
Well, from a from a show perspective.

459
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:23.460
It's kind of interesting because it's...

460
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:27.539
It's like the opposite of the relationship between Ian and Exeter

461
00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:28.619
in the Aztecs.

462
00:21:28.619 --> 00:21:33.720
Because Ian and Exeter in the Aztecs are ordered to train together

463
00:21:33.720 --> 00:21:38.579
and never develop a friendship, but have to externally display

464
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:42.059
that, oh, yeah, we're getting along fine, but really they don't.

465
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.700
Whereas Ian and Delos.

466
00:21:44.759 --> 00:21:47.579
I throw it together by chance, they just happen to be sitting

467
00:21:47.579 --> 00:21:52.079
together in the galley and the galleon and become very firm

468
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.680
friends, but then have to put on this show of fighting each

469
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:56.039
other.

470
00:21:56.099 --> 00:22:00.240
But then come back together again at the end, and D-Lor survives

471
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.259
whereas Ixter doesn't.

472
00:22:01.319 --> 00:22:06.119
So it's the same kind of thing where both times they've given Ian

473
00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.460
a rival slash equal.

474
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.960
But, sort of inverted it.

475
00:22:13.019 --> 00:22:16.680
I don't know if it's deliberate or if it's just the writers, John

476
00:22:16.680 --> 00:22:20.220
Lucarotti and Dennis Spooner playing with that trope you mentioned

477
00:22:20.220 --> 00:22:22.140
the gladiator friend trope.

478
00:22:23.339 --> 00:22:25.559
Anyway, it's marvellous.

479
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:26.220
Yes.

480
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:31.259
Yeah, I don't I don't think anyone is going to dissent on that.

481
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:34.980
And if you do dissent on it, write into us and let us know these

482
00:22:34.980 --> 00:22:35.519
two.

483
00:22:35.519 --> 00:22:39.839
And we will send the men round to your house with the nice white

484
00:22:39.839 --> 00:22:41.519
jacket with the roomy sleeves.

485
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:43.500
Ah?

486
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:48.059
Well, that sound can mean only one thing went off to the, uh, we're

487
00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:50.640
off to the soft focus Vaseline lens.

488
00:22:50.700 --> 00:22:52.799
I just might as well, my fingers are so slippery.

489
00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:55.140
It's all that actually...

490
00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:55.799
The board.

491
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:57.839
Not the board, it might as well be.

492
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.599
Planet of the Monopra and the Zabi.

493
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:04.259
In which case, I should mention our 2nd baked good of this

494
00:23:04.259 --> 00:23:05.339
season.

495
00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:10.740
Rod has made us Optra larvae scrolls, which looks suspiciously

496
00:23:10.740 --> 00:23:13.680
like strawberry scroll scrolls.

497
00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:19.019
So we'll have the we'll have the recipe for those on the website.

498
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.420
They look like ammonites.

499
00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.920
Exactly, they do.

500
00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:23.519
Yes.

501
00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:25.619
Were they in the web planet?

502
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:26.339
Everything else was.

503
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:26.940
Yes.

504
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.619
The web planet.

505
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:29.519
My word.

506
00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:31.079
What year is this setting?

507
00:23:31.140 --> 00:23:33.420
It has no real place, does it?

508
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:37.200
No, there's no, there's no human context to it.

509
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:40.140
It's the base fanboy thing to say, isn't it?

510
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:43.079
There's no other humanoid characters other than the principal

511
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:43.619
Carlos.

512
00:23:43.680 --> 00:23:48.660
Although the animus in the last episode does say that she hopes to

513
00:23:48.660 --> 00:23:50.579
take from man his mastery of space.

514
00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:53.039
Ah, so we're somewhere often up there.

515
00:23:53.099 --> 00:23:57.839
The reason I ask that is because it's an interesting show.

516
00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:02.279
It's outside space and time as we know it in any other context in

517
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:06.599
the series, and pretty much of TV generally at the time, or even

518
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:10.740
now, what did Russell T. Davis families famously say, we're not

519
00:24:10.740 --> 00:24:15.720
going to Planet Zog to meet the Zogites and get them to zog each

520
00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:17.099
other out for episodes.

521
00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.759
He's not interested if there's no human thing in it.

522
00:24:20.819 --> 00:24:23.579
So the Zog monster on the planet Zog is not interesting.

523
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:26.759
And so that would specifically rule this out.

524
00:24:27.000 --> 00:24:29.220
Even though he clearly has fond memories of it.

525
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:33.240
There's a bunch of references to it in series one of Doctor Who.

526
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.839
Margaret Savine scared of being menaced by the venom grubs.

527
00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:41.279
The face of both... from the ISOP galaxy. yeah.

528
00:24:41.339 --> 00:24:44.819
So it is something that he clearly thinks fondly off, but it's not

529
00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:46.980
something that would ever be attempted now, I think.

530
00:24:47.039 --> 00:24:52.740
And yet, was it not for its time or up until the 70s, the biggest

531
00:24:52.740 --> 00:24:54.420
rating Doctor Who story?

532
00:24:54.480 --> 00:24:55.200
Yes.

533
00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:57.119
Yeah, it was incredibly popular.

534
00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:59.279
Up 12000000 an upbeach episode.

535
00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:03.119
And yet on every other level. audience appreciation, BBC

536
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:03.960
appreciation.

537
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:08.579
We tend to see it now as this faint and faintly curious and kind

538
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:11.039
of sweet thing that, oh, you know, everyone just accepted that as

539
00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:11.700
the time.

540
00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:12.599
They really didn't.

541
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:16.559
The letters that were coming in and as well as the, um

542
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:19.980
appreciation from the directors of the BBC and the critical people

543
00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:22.440
there were saying, this is actually a bit pants.

544
00:25:22.500 --> 00:25:23.700
It's just not working.

545
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:25.859
And they all were kind of missing the point.

546
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:29.940
The only people that kind of got it right were, I guess, the new

547
00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:33.180
fans, the kids, and not just the kids, the families who were

548
00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:36.660
sitting at home saying, we love this because we have no idea

549
00:25:36.660 --> 00:25:38.519
what's going on or where we are.

550
00:25:38.579 --> 00:25:42.480
And I get as other people have said, this is the point where you

551
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.640
can see that the Doctor Who production office were definitely

552
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.640
saying, hmm, mushrooms, yes, let's have those.

553
00:25:47.700 --> 00:25:48.539
Where did they come from?

554
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:50.039
I don't know, very.

555
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:51.119
But yeah, and what's this?

556
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:54.180
And a tap, patch is, because it's really whacked.

557
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:55.440
It's out there.

558
00:25:55.500 --> 00:25:56.880
It's completely Zonk.

559
00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:00.960
You can't imagine that it would have been quite so out there if

560
00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:02.819
David Whittaker was still script editor.

561
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.900
Yeah, and that's a really good point because he was so literary in

562
00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:11.700
what he did, which is not to presuppose that this thing doesn't

563
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.359
have its own antecedents, and I'd actually have to say, as a

564
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:19.019
science fiction story, it's actually the most traditional that

565
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:20.039
they've so far done.

566
00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:23.339
And I'll tell you why, that again, when we talked about

567
00:26:23.339 --> 00:26:29.640
graphically, these kinds of stories, very much the cognisant of

568
00:26:29.640 --> 00:26:34.079
pulp fiction, there's the one that came to mind as the 1932

569
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.680
Astounding Stories, which is kind of famous, Paul Ernst's raid on

570
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.579
the termites, which have images of insects that look almost

571
00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:47.220
exactly like the zombie, but spouting venomous web-like stuff over

572
00:26:47.220 --> 00:26:47.759
the heroes.

573
00:26:47.819 --> 00:26:53.160
It's, you know, insect planets have been around, actually, um, way

574
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:53.880
1768.

575
00:26:54.059 --> 00:26:57.900
There's a story by a writer, you could actually cook science

576
00:26:57.900 --> 00:26:58.380
fiction.

577
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.279
Gonzales talks about, it's called the man in the moon, where he

578
00:27:02.279 --> 00:27:03.660
has insectoid creatures.

579
00:27:03.779 --> 00:27:07.079
And then, of course, let's get to the 2 greatest and where this, I

580
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:09.059
think, visually this show, this thing comes from.

581
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:15.900
It was Mele, George Mele, his beautiful 1902 film trip to the

582
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:16.200
moon.

583
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:22.019
Lavage de la Lune, who 1st married the stories of Jules Verne with

584
00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:26.160
H.G. Worlds. actually quite different moon voyage things and put

585
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:31.259
them together and he's Selenites, in fact, he's, he's, um, Visually

586
00:27:31.259 --> 00:27:33.779
his designs for the moon creatures look almost exactly like

587
00:27:33.779 --> 00:27:34.680
cockyon.

588
00:27:34.740 --> 00:27:36.599
Monsieur Cockney from the story before.

589
00:27:36.660 --> 00:27:39.240
So there's lots of those lovely Millie's moments in this thing.

590
00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:43.740
Um, but just the eiriness of it, the weirdness of it, the fact

591
00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:48.720
that we're not in a space, the gorgeous score, which is um, the

592
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:50.640
structural, sonor, am I correct?

593
00:27:50.700 --> 00:27:55.680
Yeah, those French, the French, um, Early electronic boys that

594
00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.380
just doing wacko weird, beautiful things.

595
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:00.599
Visually you have no idea where you are.

596
00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:04.440
You're on your side. and you've definitely had a bex with your cup

597
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:05.819
of tea when you're watching this.

598
00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.000
It's really blows me even now watching it.

599
00:28:09.059 --> 00:28:11.039
I have no idea what's going on or where I am.

600
00:28:11.099 --> 00:28:12.720
I don't think even the narrative does.

601
00:28:12.779 --> 00:28:15.720
And then you've got all these extraordinary William Blake effects

602
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:19.980
going on where they start talking about the worship of the light

603
00:28:19.980 --> 00:28:26.880
and these amazing lines of the monopteras and the opta, of course

604
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.039
mentioning light worship and light as life.

605
00:28:29.099 --> 00:28:34.079
It's as if they're all presupposing air card tolls work and, you

606
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.759
know, all the stuff that's going on with, with, um, new age, uh

607
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:39.299
writing now.

608
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:41.579
It's no wonder it had 12, 13000000 viewers.

609
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:42.539
Maybe there's something in that.

610
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:47.519
There's some really beautiful progressive images of light as a

611
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:51.900
deity and just a whole different world and a whole different

612
00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:52.319
structure.

613
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:53.279
What did you think?

614
00:28:53.339 --> 00:28:56.880
Well, I'm picking up what something you said just saying about the

615
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:57.359
ratings.

616
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:02.940
A lot of people sort of say with Doctor Who, that students, you

617
00:29:02.940 --> 00:29:07.619
know, people in their late teens, early 20s, only started flocking

618
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:13.259
to Doctor Who in the Douglas Adams, Tom Baker, but Colin Baker

619
00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:17.940
says that when he was 18, 19, living in digs with David Troughton

620
00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:20.519
he came home one evening as he was coming in the front door.

621
00:29:20.579 --> 00:29:21.839
There was Cody morning.

622
00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:26.940
This was before David met Katie, I believe, but as he was coming

623
00:29:26.940 --> 00:29:31.380
in the front door, the opening titles of an unearthly child were

624
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:34.319
on the table and he sort of leant on the counter at the front door

625
00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:37.740
and said the next thing I knew, I was still standing there and the

626
00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:40.440
credits were rolling and that was my 1st and I kept watching.

627
00:29:40.500 --> 00:29:43.079
And so he was in that...

628
00:29:43.140 --> 00:29:47.519
So with what you were saying about um, tapping into all those

629
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.799
historical filmmakers and authors and philosophers and the worship

630
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:53.519
of the light.

631
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:55.920
I think the university students were already watching.

632
00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:58.799
And I think that's probably the right on to those little mushy

633
00:29:58.799 --> 00:29:59.220
stories.

634
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:01.380
Yeah, the mushroom soup is definitely being handed around.

635
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:05.640
Because if, you know, children's parents who are the in many cases

636
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:08.579
would be the serious ones on the audience report saying, oh, well

637
00:30:08.579 --> 00:30:09.539
I don't know what's going on.

638
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:11.579
Might have just said to their kids for a few weeks.

639
00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:12.839
No, you're not watching that rubbish.

640
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:14.940
Not watching that nappy paddy light worshipping rubbish.

641
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:17.880
But you can because it's within the structure of Doctor Who.

642
00:30:17.940 --> 00:30:19.140
Yeah, so that's safe.

643
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:20.339
That's safe.

644
00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.059
Since then, it's not got that greater reputation, does it?

645
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:27.059
I mean, people kind of laugh at it and say that it's, you know

646
00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:30.420
that it's a failed attempt or that it doesn't quite work because

647
00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:35.220
you've got sort of ropey 60s. you know, like it's ambitious

648
00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:38.940
visually, but it falls short because we can all just tell that

649
00:30:38.940 --> 00:30:40.140
they're men in suits.

650
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:40.920
Do you know what I mean?

651
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:42.900
Like there is a... the whole point, isn't it?

652
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:43.980
It's not actually meant.

653
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:44.819
It's about theatre.

654
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:49.740
It's about allowing the suspension of disbelief and being as a

655
00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:53.579
viewer, getting along with the what's going on, buying into it

656
00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:56.279
being a friend of the narrative and allowing it to do what it's

657
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:56.460
doing.

658
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:00.420
We forget that at this time, TV wasn't all that common.

659
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.960
It wasn't certainly on broadcast 24 hours a day.

660
00:31:04.019 --> 00:31:05.220
It was only a few hours of the day.

661
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:07.980
People still went to things like local theatres.

662
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.180
People had picture books.

663
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.019
Kids 1st reference were these kinds of images, statics.

664
00:31:13.079 --> 00:31:15.660
The fact this was moving around and in the home was pretty

665
00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:19.619
profound and immediate and allowed an involvement that you don't

666
00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:21.779
necessarily have now and got so many distractions.

667
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:23.400
I certainly remember it.

668
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:27.960
People speaking about it sort of fairly dismissively, you know

669
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:32.160
when I was when I was younger and I think, I don't know what fan

670
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:37.440
consensus is anymore, but I remember being surprised by how much I

671
00:31:37.440 --> 00:31:38.039
enjoyed it.

672
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:41.099
I think it really does work very well and it is because.

673
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:47.339
It is because it is so alien and the juxtaposition of, you know

674
00:31:47.339 --> 00:31:52.380
ordinary people like Barbara and Ian with these sort of strange

675
00:31:52.380 --> 00:31:56.640
increasingly strange as the Opera appear, monsters.

676
00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.279
You know, I think is really terrific.

677
00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:01.740
And there is something sort of fabulously dreamlike about them

678
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:05.519
flying through the studio and all of that sort of thing.

679
00:32:05.579 --> 00:32:08.579
Something fabulously dreamlike about Rosalind De Winter, isn't

680
00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:08.759
it?

681
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.059
Take a drink, everyone.

682
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.900
But she really worked them hard, apparently, all that thing of the

683
00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.400
gestures and then the body movements.

684
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:18.839
They took it really seriously.

685
00:32:18.900 --> 00:32:19.740
Yes, they did.

686
00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:20.759
She's in it, isn't she?

687
00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:21.420
Is she something?

688
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:22.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

689
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:23.640
She's one of the...

690
00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:27.000
She's the fairly female monoptera, I believe the character is

691
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.779
Rosalind De Winter was Vreston, of course.

692
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:36.000
I remember. and she played against Martin Jarvis as Hillary, who

693
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.880
was the, was the, the Ian equivalent.

694
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:40.680
There are some amazing lines in there.

695
00:32:40.740 --> 00:32:45.960
And some extraordinary moments of really, really poignant

696
00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:48.359
sensitive stuff you couldn't do with humanoid characters.

697
00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:49.980
There's that, do you remember when they...

698
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:51.539
Stick someone's head in a pool.

699
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:52.200
Exactly.

700
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:55.559
They talk about making mouths to the sky by drilling holes, but of

701
00:32:55.559 --> 00:32:57.779
course, that acid can pour through the walls.

702
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:02.039
Hemini dies, plugging the lava flow, and her body is left as a

703
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:02.519
carcass.

704
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:03.660
They were going to actually leave it there.

705
00:33:04.500 --> 00:33:06.119
No, they do.

706
00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:07.019
There's a shot.

707
00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:07.980
It's anemone.

708
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:12.119
There's a shot of her. like everyone else walks off and then we

709
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.299
just go her with her head stuck in the acid. extraordinary.

710
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:18.779
The only thing that brings it down is Hetra jumping up and down in

711
00:33:18.779 --> 00:33:21.720
that moment and saying something that sounds exactly like, uh, uh

712
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:22.559
twat rag.

713
00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:25.440
Really does.

714
00:33:25.500 --> 00:33:26.640
Does that like that?

715
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:32.940
There are some, there is, yeah, look, there's some really deep, you

716
00:33:32.940 --> 00:33:36.539
know, you'll, again, we mentioned before with his, um, promulgation

717
00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:41.759
of the animus, you know, the, the animus is the male, uh, shadow

718
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:48.960
of every woman, just as the animal is our female um, self as men

719
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:53.279
in the, in this world and um, it's often our shadow self or our

720
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:55.619
negative that's also polar opposite.

721
00:33:55.680 --> 00:34:00.000
It's interesting that the animals, Annie Moose, as she's known.

722
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:05.519
Monoptera, anyway, is has an amazing voice.

723
00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:07.619
It's Fleming, is her name, is it?

724
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:08.280
And a female book.

725
00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:11.820
Yes, and yet she's known as the animus, which is the male, the

726
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:12.719
male archetype.

727
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:16.139
And of course she's called a bladder, isn't she, in there?

728
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:20.940
Space Bladder in wherever it's referred to.

729
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.860
Is that in about time?

730
00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.260
Yeah, no, it's in the notes.

731
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:28.019
It's referred to in the 80s, which doesn't really help.

732
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:29.880
But yeah, it's a carsonate.

733
00:34:29.940 --> 00:34:33.239
So this is, again, I guess we're coming back to the same ideas

734
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:37.199
that they were talking about in Planet of Giants, that this is the

735
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:38.280
cancer taking over the world.

736
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:45.239
And and wasn't this around the time that, um, Uh, the guy

737
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:47.579
hypothesis started being called?

738
00:34:47.639 --> 00:34:48.239
I thought.

739
00:34:48.300 --> 00:34:52.019
The planet Bortis itself may not be an organism, but an organism

740
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:55.860
has invaded it, but is seen as a cancer on it and disrupts the

741
00:34:55.860 --> 00:34:58.380
natural order to the point that water turns to acid.

742
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:01.260
Well, I think you could, you know, like it's probably a standard

743
00:35:01.260 --> 00:35:01.739
thing.

744
00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:05.159
You don't need the guy hypothesis to draw an analogue between the

745
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:06.360
world and an organism.

746
00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:07.199
Do you know what I mean?

747
00:35:07.260 --> 00:35:10.739
Because it's, you know, there's all these feedback loops and and

748
00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:12.119
things like that.

749
00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:14.639
And so it's a fairly standard metaphor.

750
00:35:14.699 --> 00:35:16.440
And so I think that's...

751
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:19.320
I'm just wondering how popular the guy hypothesis was at the

752
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:19.739
time.

753
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.739
Because, of course, we're approaching the mid 60s in

754
00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:27.659
counterculture and flower power and what have you, which doesn't

755
00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:30.599
reach Doctor Who for another few years yet, really.

756
00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:35.460
There's some shades of it in the following year with Dodo and Ben

757
00:35:35.460 --> 00:35:38.699
Polly all being part of that culture towards the end of season 3

758
00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:41.460
in Club Inferno.

759
00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:44.880
It's meant to be about communism.

760
00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:47.280
Bill Strutton is an Australian writer who did this.

761
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:49.619
You know, he got this, he said, from putting when he was a little

762
00:35:49.619 --> 00:35:53.699
boy, in Adelaide, putting his finger in an old oil can, when he

763
00:35:53.699 --> 00:35:57.659
saw 2 bullants fighting, it was really badly bitten, that was, and

764
00:35:57.659 --> 00:35:59.940
memory that he had, he said, for the rest of his life.

765
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.619
There's a lot of other things in this.

766
00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:07.739
But yeah, he said it's so trope about communism and that the zabi

767
00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:10.559
represent the workers, but I don't really see how that works

768
00:36:10.559 --> 00:36:13.199
because they don't have any consciousness themselves.

769
00:36:13.260 --> 00:36:16.800
They're not downtrodden inhabitants at all, are they?

770
00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:18.780
And once they're freed, they just go back to being cattle.

771
00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:19.860
They dance.

772
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:20.820
They do that.

773
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:21.780
They do have a dance.

774
00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:23.639
They smash into the camera. they, you know.

775
00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:27.000
Maybe he's sort of trying to say that with like the workforce or

776
00:36:27.000 --> 00:36:27.659
the populace.

777
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:31.320
Any philosophy, the workforce that the populace have by themselves

778
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:33.300
is not inherently good or evil.

779
00:36:33.360 --> 00:36:35.639
It is how a controlling force.

780
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.500
Oh, I like that. uses that.

781
00:36:37.559 --> 00:36:40.980
And the thing is, when the monotra are talking about what their

782
00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:44.820
life was before, you're still kind of left with the sense that

783
00:36:44.820 --> 00:36:49.019
okay, that's a bit problematic that, okay, now the zombie have a

784
00:36:49.019 --> 00:36:52.139
degree of autonomy but are being used for evil, but if they're not

785
00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:55.440
being used for evil, they have no autonomy, if they're not capable

786
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:57.420
of evil, they have no autonomy.

787
00:36:57.659 --> 00:37:04.860
But in that last scene, we don't see the Monopra, Using or taking

788
00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:07.440
advantage of the zombie, we actually see them guiding the zombie

789
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:08.639
to the water and looking after them.

790
00:37:08.699 --> 00:37:14.039
So there's the sense that maybe something will change because I

791
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:17.820
kind, when I hear the Menoptera say that, oh, the zabi were our

792
00:37:17.820 --> 00:37:21.420
cattle and they were mindless beasts, there's this subtext of

793
00:37:21.420 --> 00:37:23.699
maybe if we didn't treat them like cattle.

794
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:26.519
Maybe if they weren't just dumb animals.

795
00:37:26.579 --> 00:37:30.360
Wasn't this broadcast at the time that or just it was this year in

796
00:37:30.360 --> 00:37:34.320
65 that Gambia was given independence by Britain.

797
00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:36.360
Yes, of course.

798
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:39.960
So you've got, I think, political stuff with it.

799
00:37:40.019 --> 00:37:41.400
Yeah, fire dissolving.

800
00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:44.699
I don't like the idea of trying to find a political thing here.

801
00:37:44.760 --> 00:37:46.260
I mean, it resonates.

802
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.980
Yeah, I know, but I think he's, I mean, you know, red conning

803
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:50.219
movie.

804
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:51.300
I think he probably is.

805
00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.599
I mean, the whole, I think that the point is that this is so

806
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:55.980
strange and otherworldly.

807
00:37:56.039 --> 00:37:58.980
And while it does have things that resonate like your cancer

808
00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:02.940
analogy, which is sort of kind of explicitly there in the dialogue

809
00:38:02.940 --> 00:38:09.360
it's just about being terribly strange and confronting the

810
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:09.599
viewers.

811
00:38:09.659 --> 00:38:10.320
Yeah, yeah.

812
00:38:10.380 --> 00:38:14.039
I'm someone who's very much deeping in that a work cannot be

813
00:38:14.039 --> 00:38:15.239
written in a political vacuum.

814
00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:20.099
Whether you want it to or not, politics in the world around you is

815
00:38:20.099 --> 00:38:21.360
going to influence what you're writing.

816
00:38:21.420 --> 00:38:24.300
Well, I think I think that that's, I think that that's true, but

817
00:38:24.300 --> 00:38:27.780
this is one where you can see why there would be a motive to claim

818
00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:31.500
some political relevance for it, given that it looks just like a

819
00:38:31.500 --> 00:38:34.860
whole lot of wacky people leaping about in ad costumes.

820
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:35.820
Do you know what I mean?

821
00:38:35.880 --> 00:38:38.340
It's not just that costumes.

822
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:41.699
It's a very serious work of political polemic.

823
00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:43.559
But in fact, do you know what I mean?

824
00:38:43.619 --> 00:38:44.579
I think it is...

825
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.679
I don't think I certainly don't think it's serious.

826
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:50.039
I just think a political reading can be argued.

827
00:38:50.099 --> 00:38:51.300
Yeah, yeah.

828
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.880
No one clearly Strutton's trying to do that, but I think I think

829
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:55.320
he's reaching a bit, to be honest.

830
00:38:55.380 --> 00:38:58.619
I reckon you've got a whole PhD in this one story if you just want

831
00:38:58.619 --> 00:38:59.940
to look at references.

832
00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:03.239
So I actually can't believe that Rod doesn't have anything to say

833
00:39:03.239 --> 00:39:04.139
about the web planner.

834
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:09.480
Well, aside from every episode saying it's the Monoptera, again

835
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:10.380
get the bug spray.

836
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:14.699
He did say to me, please tell me they don't come back to this

837
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:15.179
planet.

838
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:16.380
Why would anyone want to go back?

839
00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:20.219
And I said, well, big finish did return to the web planet.

840
00:39:20.280 --> 00:39:20.820
Did they?

841
00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:21.360
It's great.

842
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:25.440
Yeah, it's pretty good With Peter Davidson and Sarah Sutton.

843
00:39:25.500 --> 00:39:30.179
So I said the 5th doctor comes back to which Rod's reply was, lucky

844
00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:30.480
him.

845
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:31.860
I hope he brings the Daleks.

846
00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:33.900
That's so mean.

847
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.860
What with the point of an audio of the web Planet B, that just

848
00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:38.280
seems crazy.

849
00:39:38.340 --> 00:39:41.039
Well, you do get the car alarms, Arby's going on.

850
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.679
You can tell when the zombie are there.

851
00:39:43.739 --> 00:39:49.980
And it has the recently and sadly departed Sam Kelly as the lead

852
00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:50.880
monotra.

853
00:39:50.940 --> 00:39:53.940
So I don't think we can question it because he's just brilliant.

854
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.619
It's really nicely done.

855
00:39:55.739 --> 00:39:56.400
I actually like it.

856
00:39:56.460 --> 00:40:01.320
Well, it's the best of what this show should be.

857
00:40:01.380 --> 00:40:04.500
And because it's audio. you've got those beautiful pictures Yeah

858
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:05.280
exactly.

859
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:08.940
So yeah, without without the visual limitations of television.

860
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:13.199
They still explore what Monopra culture is like, because one of

861
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.840
the Monopra characters has no wings, so they discuss what it's

862
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.159
like to be a Monopra with no wings.

863
00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:19.440
I always thought that was terribly sad in the show.

864
00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:21.239
Yeah, when wings get...

865
00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:22.500
That guy then has no wings.

866
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:26.519
But I think the point is that it's, you know, crazy looking things

867
00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:27.179
on TV.

868
00:40:27.239 --> 00:40:28.079
Do you know what I mean?

869
00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:30.480
Like it is, yeah, I don't know.

870
00:40:30.539 --> 00:40:32.460
I don't think I would want it in my imagination.

871
00:40:32.519 --> 00:40:37.920
One final web planet link is obviously there's a fair bit of

872
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:39.960
Australian involvement in the web planet.

873
00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:41.639
Bill Strutton, the writer of Australian.

874
00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:46.019
Rosalind De Winter, insect choreographer and Vreston was

875
00:40:46.019 --> 00:40:46.559
Australian.

876
00:40:46.619 --> 00:40:49.260
And another Australian connection.

877
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:51.420
Now, I'm not sure if she is Australian, but she certainly came to

878
00:40:51.420 --> 00:40:52.199
live in Australia.

879
00:40:52.260 --> 00:40:55.800
Barbara Joss, who plays Nemini, the Opera, who gives up her life

880
00:40:55.800 --> 00:40:57.719
to save everyone from the acid.

881
00:40:57.780 --> 00:40:59.699
Did move to Australia after this.

882
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:01.079
She did Skippy.

883
00:41:01.139 --> 00:41:02.460
She did Skippy?

884
00:41:02.460 --> 00:41:02.880
Skippy?

885
00:41:02.940 --> 00:41:06.659
She did. which is currently being shown at 6.30 AM on Gem.

886
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.960
I think it might be maybe catcher soon, yeah.

887
00:41:10.019 --> 00:41:12.599
She became a businesswoman here in Australia.

888
00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:19.440
And in 2005, she actually came along to who, who, to a who

889
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:20.880
mentioned, which I was hosting.

890
00:41:21.179 --> 00:41:25.199
And she was a very, very interesting woman.

891
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:32.280
She had in previous years to that, had breast cancer and had to

892
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:33.900
have a masectomy of breast removed.

893
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:38.400
And so as well as talking about her time on the show, she had

894
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.199
written a book about her experiences.

895
00:41:40.260 --> 00:41:41.820
So we talked about that for the audience.

896
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:49.679
And um, What was really nice about that was 1st of all, I have

897
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:54.239
since had familiar familial experience of cancer, but I hadn't had

898
00:41:54.239 --> 00:41:54.960
it at that time.

899
00:41:54.960 --> 00:41:58.440
And I think that helped me when that did happen because I had

900
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.360
spoken to her about her experience with cancer.

901
00:42:00.420 --> 00:42:04.260
But what was wonderful, this was in late 2005, so it was just

902
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:05.880
after the 1st season, the new series.

903
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:10.920
And as such, we had a lot more women coming to who mentioned

904
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:16.380
because of the impact of the character of rogues.

905
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:21.179
And Barbara Joss herself was sort of tentative that comes to the

906
00:42:21.179 --> 00:42:23.039
convention because she's like, you know, I'd like to talk about my

907
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:25.199
book, but I can't imagine any Doctor Who founds to be interested

908
00:42:25.199 --> 00:42:25.619
in that.

909
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:28.559
I had to say to her, well, no, no, we love to hear about what

910
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:30.179
people have done since Doctor Who.

911
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.579
And she brought about 30 copies of the book along.

912
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:35.880
And during her autographing session, her book sold out.

913
00:42:35.940 --> 00:42:42.539
And there were loads of women in their late teens, 20s, 30s and

914
00:42:42.539 --> 00:42:46.619
older, and every woman who came up to speak to her said, I just

915
00:42:46.619 --> 00:42:49.500
wanted to thank you for coming here and saying that because it's

916
00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:53.219
it's something I fear or it's something in my family and it's so

917
00:42:53.219 --> 00:42:54.900
nice to hear someone talk frankly about it.

918
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:58.679
And Barbara was just amazed and touched.

919
00:42:58.679 --> 00:43:01.260
And I haven't heard from Barbara in years.

920
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:05.460
I do hope she's still with us because she was such such an open

921
00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:08.400
funny, enthusiastic.

922
00:43:08.460 --> 00:43:10.860
Yeah, she brought it all home, didn't she?

923
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:11.639
She brought it all.

924
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:15.179
She brought it all home and she was a little bit horrified, I have

925
00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:17.760
to say, when we did show her bits of the web planet.

926
00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:21.539
She sort of went, oh, God, is that what it looked like?

927
00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:25.860
I was terribly nervous because this was the 1st big convention I

928
00:43:25.860 --> 00:43:27.539
hosted and she played a trick on me.

929
00:43:27.780 --> 00:43:31.380
And what that was, was after we showed her that clip.

930
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:33.900
I turned to her and said, so what can you tell us about filming

931
00:43:33.900 --> 00:43:34.320
that scene?

932
00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:37.019
Oh, darling, I don't remember anything about it at all.

933
00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:38.400
Fair enough.

934
00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:39.659
Was it Patrick Trouser?

935
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.360
But then I just looked horrified and 5 seconds later, she's like

936
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:48.119
oh, no, you know, Billy used to bring in a chicken and then Jackie

937
00:43:48.119 --> 00:43:52.079
and Russ used to bring in a turkey, another turkey, a salad, and

938
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:53.519
it was like this.

939
00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:55.679
And she actually went on for half an hour about what the filming

940
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:56.340
was actually like.

941
00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.519
But just for that split second. like, oh my, this kid, I don't

942
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:01.440
remember that. knows nothing about Doctor Who.

943
00:44:01.500 --> 00:44:03.539
And she just had everyone in stitches.

944
00:44:03.599 --> 00:44:09.659
So yeah, that's just my my addendum to the web planet discussion.

945
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:20.280
Well, we're moving that to Earth now at breakneck speed into the

946
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:24.780
12th century to experience the crusade.

947
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:27.480
We've got another big star.

948
00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:30.900
We had Derek Francis, who was probably the biggest name in TV that

949
00:44:30.900 --> 00:44:31.800
we've had after this point.

950
00:44:31.860 --> 00:44:33.840
We've got Julian Bloody Glover.

951
00:44:33.900 --> 00:44:35.219
And Jean.

952
00:44:35.219 --> 00:44:38.579
Jean, I should just done Shakespeare on Broadway.

953
00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:42.900
Just that season before doing this, but Glover was a seriously big

954
00:44:42.900 --> 00:44:44.940
name, even back in the day too.

955
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:47.579
It's really nice watching this and thinking, hmm, you know why he

956
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:50.340
just disappears at the end of episode four, Nigel, through episode

957
00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:50.760
three?

958
00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.280
because Scaroff's called him Matt for another one.

959
00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:55.500
And you can actually watch it.

960
00:44:55.559 --> 00:44:58.500
I did what when we had to do it for this podcast, watch it and go

961
00:44:58.500 --> 00:44:59.880
what if it actually is Careth?

962
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:00.239
You know what?

963
00:45:00.300 --> 00:45:02.460
It almost works watching it as Scarov.

964
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:04.559
And the whole dissociation with his sister.

965
00:45:04.619 --> 00:45:06.719
Where do we want to start?

966
00:45:06.780 --> 00:45:09.239
There's so much in this, isn't there?

967
00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:10.619
Well, it's different.

968
00:45:10.619 --> 00:45:13.920
It's a, it's a, yet another historical where Barbara gets a really

969
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:14.639
strong role to play.

970
00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:18.599
And, you know, she does use a little bit of her knowledge of

971
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:22.619
history, but mostly she uses her cultural knowledge.

972
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:26.880
And speaking of culture, let's just say it, say it now.

973
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:30.179
The Arabic characters are played by white guys in blackface.

974
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.300
Yeah, but they were, but by Bernard Kay.

975
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:34.679
Okay.

976
00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:36.059
This is called Shakespeare.

977
00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:41.880
Traditionally, BBC actors, you know, you saw...

978
00:45:41.880 --> 00:45:45.420
No, Anthony Hopkins playing Othello in the business.

979
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:47.699
It a bit ripe for the colour then, too.

980
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:51.360
The culture, the Arabic culture, is actually represented with a

981
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:52.559
lot of respect.

982
00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:53.340
A lot of respect.

983
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:54.840
And Berner K is such a strong part.

984
00:45:54.900 --> 00:45:56.760
Berner K, Roger Avon.

985
00:45:56.820 --> 00:45:59.519
I mean, of course, Walter Randall's the villain.

986
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:06.539
But those 2 and the chat playing Bender here, the comedy sort of

987
00:46:06.539 --> 00:46:13.800
merchant. each represent a different view of Arabic culture.

988
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:16.500
They represent the aristocracy in the 1st 2 and the worker class

989
00:46:16.500 --> 00:46:17.699
in the latter.

990
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:22.739
But the, their culture is never sent up and you get burner K later

991
00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:26.760
later on and his daughter as sort of the the middle 2 work class

992
00:46:26.760 --> 00:46:28.440
showing you what a family is like there.

993
00:46:28.500 --> 00:46:33.780
And they're just such well-rounded characters in a time where you

994
00:46:33.780 --> 00:46:38.400
may not expect non-white culture to be so well represented in

995
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:39.420
television.

996
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:43.019
In fact, acting on Richard's advice.

997
00:46:43.139 --> 00:46:48.300
I got the David Whittaker novelisation of the Crusade, which is

998
00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:52.139
called Doctor Who and the Crusaders, and it was just recently re

999
00:46:51.239 --> 00:46:54.179
released, as you mentioned, that was on the Kindle.

1000
00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:56.219
And it actually starts.

1001
00:46:56.280 --> 00:47:00.599
It has an opening scene. in the TARDIS, because this sort of

1002
00:47:00.599 --> 00:47:04.260
famously starts with the TARDIS materialising and the crew coming

1003
00:47:04.260 --> 00:47:05.039
out of it, I think.

1004
00:47:05.099 --> 00:47:07.199
He leaves the handbrake off this time.

1005
00:47:07.260 --> 00:47:10.739
It doesn't make a knife. sound several times this season, yeah.

1006
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:15.539
So the scene inside the Tartars has them talking about why they

1007
00:47:15.539 --> 00:47:17.460
can't interfere with the past.

1008
00:47:17.519 --> 00:47:20.639
Which is something that I actually think fundamentally completely

1009
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.300
dams historicals as an idea and that's why they have to go away

1010
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:26.039
because they can't really do anything.

1011
00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:30.000
You know, the rules are the rules are they can't affect the past

1012
00:47:30.000 --> 00:47:32.039
so that's really not very interesting.

1013
00:47:32.099 --> 00:47:35.400
All they get to do is sort of escape and then...

1014
00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:38.579
Every single adventure is the past because it's all relative. where

1015
00:47:38.579 --> 00:47:39.300
you've just come from.

1016
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:42.960
But it is that thing where once the doctor's a heroic figure, he

1017
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:46.320
can't really participate interestingly in those sort of stories.

1018
00:47:46.380 --> 00:47:50.039
But the other conversation is something about right and wrong, and

1019
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:53.460
like I read it a little while ago now, so it's a little bit hazy

1020
00:47:53.460 --> 00:47:57.239
but, but the doctor speculates, what would it be like to be

1021
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:01.619
involved in a situation where both opposing sides were in the

1022
00:48:01.619 --> 00:48:02.039
right?

1023
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.440
And it's so very clearly, no, no, no, not they just think they're

1024
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:07.800
right.

1025
00:48:07.860 --> 00:48:08.820
That's every conflict.

1026
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:12.480
But they are actually both good people, you know.

1027
00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:18.059
And so, and so there is this thing where, you know, Saladin sends

1028
00:48:18.059 --> 00:48:22.260
presence to Richard and Joanne.

1029
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:27.059
Yes, and there is a sort of mutual respect and that sort of

1030
00:48:27.059 --> 00:48:27.300
thing.

1031
00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:31.800
And so the Saracens are not are not villains in this at all.

1032
00:48:31.860 --> 00:48:33.000
They're like, here is.

1033
00:48:33.059 --> 00:48:38.159
But, but certainly not, um, Salador, his brother. yeah.

1034
00:48:38.219 --> 00:48:41.820
And so I think that that is sort of interesting.

1035
00:48:41.940 --> 00:48:46.800
The story is a little bit harmed by the fact that only 2 episodes

1036
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:50.820
exist and the recons are not great.

1037
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:55.679
And so I did actually find myself wandering off and wondering when

1038
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:57.000
the pteroleptils would arrive.

1039
00:48:57.059 --> 00:48:58.019
Yeah, sure.

1040
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:00.000
But the premise is so strong getting back to what you were saying

1041
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.099
because that for me really clinches it.

1042
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:05.940
I feel it's the strongest script we've had in the show so far, and

1043
00:49:05.940 --> 00:49:08.639
it's probably the strongest script we have for a while in the

1044
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:10.260
series, it's my take on it anyway.

1045
00:49:10.320 --> 00:49:14.219
Historically, and where Britain was in 1965.

1046
00:49:14.460 --> 00:49:19.440
It's a really nice take on imperialism and judging exactly where

1047
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:23.460
it was, what we were seeing as Britain and what an empire is.

1048
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:27.480
We've got to remember the, The stuff that was still going on at

1049
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:28.500
the time culturally.

1050
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.260
There's a really sweet little ladybird book that came out right at

1051
00:49:31.260 --> 00:49:33.420
the same time, if you remember those things, Peter and Jane

1052
00:49:33.420 --> 00:49:34.079
learned to read.

1053
00:49:34.139 --> 00:49:36.420
Richard I or Richard the Lionheart.

1054
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:40.679
It had scenes of him crushing the, it came out the same time as, um

1055
00:49:40.679 --> 00:49:44.940
at the 1st aired, and looking all terribly Errol Flynn in the

1056
00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:46.440
tablet and with a St.

1057
00:49:46.440 --> 00:49:50.219
George Cross, and really, hey, whacken into the poorly dressed

1058
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:50.880
infidel.

1059
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:55.380
And a shot of another illustration, lovely watercolour, of Richard

1060
00:49:55.380 --> 00:49:59.519
with his huge, strong, glinting sabre held up.

1061
00:49:59.579 --> 00:50:00.480
Hello, Dr. Freud.

1062
00:50:00.539 --> 00:50:05.820
And there's Saladin with a very fine scimitar cutting through a

1063
00:50:05.820 --> 00:50:07.800
little handkerchief that's flittering in the air.

1064
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:09.840
It was a symbolism of that, man.

1065
00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:11.039
That apparently goes back.

1066
00:50:11.159 --> 00:50:15.780
Um, I'd like to have a look at where this is coming from and what

1067
00:50:15.780 --> 00:50:17.219
this actually was because.

1068
00:50:18.300 --> 00:50:21.900
This is probably the most significant thing for, if you go back to

1069
00:50:21.900 --> 00:50:25.139
this was the 3rd crusade, wasn't it, the one with the Richard, the

1070
00:50:25.139 --> 00:50:28.619
Richard I. The Crusades kind of started, okay, Crusades kind of

1071
00:50:28.619 --> 00:50:31.800
started with Pope Urban II, Keith to his mates.

1072
00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:37.559
In 109, 1095, when he answered a call from the Eastern Roman

1073
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.460
Emperor, which was Alexia's 1st Comnitness, I think.

1074
00:50:41.460 --> 00:50:43.199
No, don't ask me.

1075
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:45.059
I know, nothing.

1076
00:50:45.179 --> 00:50:49.739
But anyway, he called to liberate Eastern Christianity and the

1077
00:50:49.739 --> 00:50:52.019
Holy Sepulchra, the Holy City of Jerusalem.

1078
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:57.059
And the pope answered, this is at the Clermont Assembly in 1095.

1079
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:02.280
Pope Urban said, um, whoever for devotion alone, not to gain

1080
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:06.599
honour or money, goes to Jerusalem to liberate the church of God

1081
00:51:06.599 --> 00:51:09.480
can substitute this journey for all penance.

1082
00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:11.460
This is pretty remarkable.

1083
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:14.460
This is a get out of jail free card for all eternity.

1084
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:18.300
If you go along and fight this holy war, all your taxes, all your

1085
00:51:18.300 --> 00:51:20.940
tides to a church, everything else, there you go. you completely

1086
00:51:20.940 --> 00:51:21.300
fine.

1087
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:25.800
This went on for, well, historians vary, 5 crusades, 8 crusades

1088
00:51:25.800 --> 00:51:26.579
some even say 12.

1089
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.679
It went definitely until 1291.

1090
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:32.159
Actually later, and it's still, you know, people say it still

1091
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:33.119
influences the world now.

1092
00:51:33.179 --> 00:51:34.380
This is a major, major thing.

1093
00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:41.340
By the time we got to, this 3rd crusade, it was, as you did, as

1094
00:51:41.340 --> 00:51:43.980
which you could describes it, and as you just said, a very elegant

1095
00:51:43.980 --> 00:51:46.980
dance between 2 opposing forces, Richard did.

1096
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:49.739
There's a lovely line when Billy says you will see Jerusalem.

1097
00:51:49.800 --> 00:51:50.519
He did.

1098
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:54.300
He came within 12 miles, I believe it was, twice.

1099
00:51:54.360 --> 00:51:57.360
Yeah, in January and then in June, July of 1192.

1100
00:51:57.599 --> 00:51:59.340
This show is actually really accurate.

1101
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:02.940
It's a little out with some of its timing, but the whole getting

1102
00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:09.840
um, offering Joanna's hand, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, did

1103
00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:12.300
actually happen, but it happened 6 months before this narrative.

1104
00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:16.860
We know this is November 1191, I think.

1105
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:17.760
Yeah, it is.

1106
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:21.659
We think is a great writer, great research on all this.

1107
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:28.260
It was an interesting meeting of formalised ideas within chivalry

1108
00:52:28.260 --> 00:52:36.360
and court etiquette, and it becomes like any great story of

1109
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:41.340
empires that are meeting, about the subtleties of exchange and the

1110
00:52:41.340 --> 00:52:44.880
subtleties of language and diplomacy.

1111
00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:48.000
And we get that reflected in some really great lives.

1112
00:52:48.059 --> 00:52:51.000
You notice that whenever Julian Glover comes on the scene, suddenly

1113
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:53.340
it all goes blank verse and everyone stands up a bit straight and

1114
00:52:53.340 --> 00:52:54.300
acts proper.

1115
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:57.119
And he actually does speak some of his lines up.

1116
00:52:57.239 --> 00:52:58.920
There is some, like, first.

1117
00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:03.900
And what the other thing I really like about this story, unless

1118
00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:05.519
you want to go on more about the historical stuff.

1119
00:53:05.579 --> 00:53:07.800
Because you don't know.

1120
00:53:08.219 --> 00:53:10.980
Well, it's just like, I really love you.

1121
00:53:11.039 --> 00:53:13.860
I really do love this period of history and what, and just how

1122
00:53:13.860 --> 00:53:17.039
much it's, um, It's influenced later history.

1123
00:53:17.099 --> 00:53:22.800
But it's that the doctor and the TARDIS crew almost negated by the

1124
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.260
entire narrative and really almost have nothing to do.

1125
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:30.480
They're an accidental aside, and it makes it much more fragile and

1126
00:53:30.480 --> 00:53:32.579
much more dangerous for everyone involved.

1127
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:35.340
It really is just surviving for the 4 episodes.

1128
00:53:35.400 --> 00:53:36.539
See, I hate that.

1129
00:53:36.599 --> 00:53:37.559
That's ripping.

1130
00:53:37.619 --> 00:53:40.380
That's the thing that I really hate about historicals and it's the

1131
00:53:40.380 --> 00:53:42.059
thing that I hate about the Aztecs as well.

1132
00:53:42.119 --> 00:53:45.300
It is that they've really got nothing to do and it is a story

1133
00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:49.559
that's not a Doctor Who story and the whole purpose of them is to

1134
00:53:49.559 --> 00:53:50.400
get out of the story.

1135
00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:51.480
Do you know what I mean?

1136
00:53:51.539 --> 00:53:56.340
So, you know, like it's, like I love Gene Marsh, and I love Julian

1137
00:53:56.340 --> 00:53:56.820
Glover.

1138
00:53:56.880 --> 00:53:58.440
And I love blank verse.

1139
00:53:58.500 --> 00:54:00.300
There are 3 things that I really love about this.

1140
00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:04.199
And there are there is stuff about the portrayal of the conflict

1141
00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:05.460
which is sort of fairly interesting.

1142
00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:09.420
But essentially I just or want them to go out and confront them.

1143
00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:13.380
What about Billy's ranch with Leicester in front of Richard in the

1144
00:54:13.380 --> 00:54:16.980
court when you, you know, will you be...

1145
00:54:17.039 --> 00:54:17.820
It's great.

1146
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:21.360
It really posits the doctor as being, I am a man of intellect and

1147
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:22.739
learning and I oppose violence.

1148
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:25.019
Mind you, wears a skull, because I'll chuck it on the back of your

1149
00:54:25.019 --> 00:54:26.039
head if you sooner look at me.

1150
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:28.019
He's over that now.

1151
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:28.920
He was young man.

1152
00:54:28.980 --> 00:54:29.940
I was young then.

1153
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:36.659
I think it's also another example of something we saw in the

1154
00:54:36.659 --> 00:54:41.219
Romans and the Aztecs, that Barbara is a driving force in the

1155
00:54:41.219 --> 00:54:41.519
story.

1156
00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:47.940
I do agree that the doctor and Vicki do very little of plot

1157
00:54:47.940 --> 00:54:48.539
relevance.

1158
00:54:48.599 --> 00:54:50.760
There's almost just the plot, really, is there?

1159
00:54:50.940 --> 00:54:55.079
It's a series of narrative events. sort of the one the conflict

1160
00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:59.340
the 1st conflict that could turn up for the doctor and Vicky is, oh

1161
00:54:59.340 --> 00:55:01.320
no, what if what if they discovered that Vicky's a girl?

1162
00:55:01.380 --> 00:55:02.940
They discover that Vicky's a girl and what do they do?

1163
00:55:03.000 --> 00:55:03.480
They get her address.

1164
00:55:03.539 --> 00:55:04.559
But isn't that great?

1165
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:06.239
Oh, yeah, Shakespeare, the boys.

1166
00:55:06.300 --> 00:55:07.440
It's a beaut.

1167
00:55:07.500 --> 00:55:08.460
It's a beautiful scene.

1168
00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:10.980
And Joanna kind of goes, well, hold on, you lied to me.

1169
00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:12.420
And the doctor says, well, you know, she would have been

1170
00:55:12.420 --> 00:55:12.900
endangered.

1171
00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:15.659
And she's like, Joanna's like, oh, oh, well, that's all right.

1172
00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:18.599
And you also sort of get Jake Marsh going, I want to wear

1173
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:19.139
trousers.

1174
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:20.880
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1175
00:55:21.840 --> 00:55:26.699
But what I find is the one a really wonderful driving force in the

1176
00:55:26.699 --> 00:55:26.940
story.

1177
00:55:27.000 --> 00:55:30.059
Is Barbara's relationship with the Saracens?

1178
00:55:30.420 --> 00:55:37.139
Both the nobles at court and being very respectful of Saladin and

1179
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:39.960
Sarah...

1180
00:55:40.019 --> 00:55:40.619
Safadin.

1181
00:55:40.679 --> 00:55:42.119
Saffidin and Saladin.

1182
00:55:42.179 --> 00:55:45.719
And you think at one moment you think it's about, you know, in the

1183
00:55:45.719 --> 00:55:48.000
direction of the Arabian Nights when she starts talking about her

1184
00:55:48.000 --> 00:55:51.960
travels and they kind of go, oh, that's very interesting, but it

1185
00:55:51.960 --> 00:55:53.159
is a novelisation.

1186
00:55:53.219 --> 00:55:56.460
There's a lot of stuff, like there's a there's a chapter where

1187
00:55:56.460 --> 00:55:59.460
she's sort of shared Zardi, you know, and just telling stories

1188
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:01.199
about crazy ants and stuff.

1189
00:56:01.260 --> 00:56:03.539
Over whom the fate of death.

1190
00:56:03.539 --> 00:56:04.559
Yeah, yeah.

1191
00:56:04.619 --> 00:56:05.460
Yeah.

1192
00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:12.420
But when Barbara escapes from Elakia at the end of episode 2 and

1193
00:56:12.420 --> 00:56:18.780
spends episode 3 with Harun and Sadia, the father and daughter, if

1194
00:56:18.780 --> 00:56:23.219
Barbara hadn't been there, People wouldn't have been searching for

1195
00:56:23.219 --> 00:56:28.260
it, but she also is told by Harun, you know, if the if the guards

1196
00:56:28.260 --> 00:56:29.639
discover you kill my daughter.

1197
00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:33.000
So she is not taken to Ella care.

1198
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.980
And Barbara Instant goes, no, I'm not going to kill it.

1199
00:56:35.039 --> 00:56:36.360
You stay here and hide.

1200
00:56:36.420 --> 00:56:37.800
I will give myself up.

1201
00:56:37.860 --> 00:56:41.880
And, you know, we've already discussed how the memory of World War

1202
00:56:41.880 --> 00:56:45.539
II was still large in people's minds.

1203
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:47.460
It's Anne Frank.

1204
00:56:47.519 --> 00:56:54.179
Oh, that element is and that nobility of giving herself up.

1205
00:56:54.239 --> 00:56:59.400
And but it's also because she gives herself up. that Harun is able

1206
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:01.019
to join Ian in rescuing her.

1207
00:57:01.079 --> 00:57:04.440
Yeah, yeah, yeah, the noble sacrifice becomes a triumph.

1208
00:57:04.500 --> 00:57:08.340
I think, and that's where the historicals work very well.

1209
00:57:08.400 --> 00:57:09.300
And I do agree with you.

1210
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:13.260
The story becomes hamstrung when the characters can't become part

1211
00:57:13.260 --> 00:57:16.440
of big events and that's the thing with the doctor and Vicky.

1212
00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:19.619
They actually do try to change the big events and sort of talk

1213
00:57:19.619 --> 00:57:20.699
Richard round.

1214
00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:26.760
And so something big happens in, he loses trust in them through no

1215
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:29.460
fault of their own, and that's kind of what Whittaker's saying in

1216
00:57:29.460 --> 00:57:33.719
his introduction of the novel that something else will happen to

1217
00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:35.159
change the history.

1218
00:57:35.219 --> 00:57:37.019
But a small life.

1219
00:57:38.039 --> 00:57:43.800
A life who that isn't a king or a Saracen lord, that can be

1220
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:45.960
changed and that you can influence that for the better.

1221
00:57:46.019 --> 00:57:50.099
And it's not, we're not clubbed over the head with that, but it's

1222
00:57:50.099 --> 00:57:52.679
just, it's just sort of there and it's, and it's really lovely.

1223
00:57:52.739 --> 00:57:55.619
And a part I really loved about the novel. many years since I read

1224
00:57:55.619 --> 00:57:55.860
it.

1225
00:57:55.920 --> 00:57:59.639
But when Ian goes to rescue Barbara, the sort of romantic subtext

1226
00:57:59.639 --> 00:58:03.239
we have between Ian and Barbara in the TV series becomes screaming

1227
00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:05.880
text in the hands of David Whittaker.

1228
00:58:05.940 --> 00:58:08.159
Yeah, he's very convinced that they're a couple.

1229
00:58:08.219 --> 00:58:11.639
Yeah, Ian, like you're constantly getting Ian's thought processor

1230
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:13.139
if she's dead, I don't know what to do.

1231
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:15.300
I can't go on without her.

1232
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.719
And then when he sees her, like his heart fills with relief.

1233
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:21.059
That's how I feel when I see her.

1234
00:58:21.119 --> 00:58:21.599
Yes.

1235
00:58:21.659 --> 00:58:24.059
Well, I think, yeah, we're all a little bit in love with Barbara.

1236
00:58:24.119 --> 00:58:24.780
But...

1237
00:58:24.780 --> 00:58:27.300
I'm sorry, Nathan.

1238
00:58:27.360 --> 00:58:31.440
I agree that there is some problem with historicals, but I think

1239
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:35.219
this one is perfect because everyone tries to do something and

1240
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:40.500
it's a triumph for the individual life over the institution

1241
00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:43.619
especially the royal institution of the Middle Ages, which was, you

1242
00:58:43.619 --> 00:58:45.480
know, that they're the only important people.

1243
00:58:45.539 --> 00:58:47.880
It's like, no, the important people in this story are Harun and

1244
00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:52.260
Sadia. who are just a father and daughter who have been through

1245
00:58:52.260 --> 00:58:56.880
horrible hardship, and you could argue that without Barbara there

1246
00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:59.280
they would have never been noticed, but with Barbara there, they

1247
00:58:59.280 --> 00:59:01.920
get a chance to kill the person who's been oppressing them and has

1248
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:04.739
kidnapped the guy's other daughters and they rescue them.

1249
00:59:04.800 --> 00:59:07.920
Look, look, I think Elaki is good.

1250
00:59:07.980 --> 00:59:12.239
I think that Barbara's thing is good, but you have to agree that

1251
00:59:12.239 --> 00:59:15.360
episode 4 would have been vastly improved if there had been a

1252
00:59:15.360 --> 00:59:16.260
shriven Zar.

1253
00:59:17.219 --> 00:59:21.000
Well, I don't know.

1254
00:59:21.000 --> 00:59:21.960
We're all reasonable people.

1255
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:27.179
I feel that this is an historical romance in every sense and

1256
00:59:27.179 --> 00:59:30.840
there's so much driving. you've just beautifully pointed out that

1257
00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:35.880
interplay on every level, not least of which is a romance, is that

1258
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:40.260
between Saladin and Richard, perhaps this dance that they both

1259
00:59:40.260 --> 00:59:44.219
perform sending gifts of sweetmeats and snow when they're...

1260
00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:47.699
Historically, Richard sailed away when he was ill.

1261
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:53.460
Um, And left Acre and um, Saladin died 6 months later.

1262
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:56.340
I'd like to say a broken heart.

1263
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.679
But yeah, truly they did.

1264
00:59:58.739 --> 01:00:01.679
It was almost as if that separation, the greatest conflict and the

1265
01:00:01.679 --> 01:00:06.420
greatest territory of their lives was this moment and was just as

1266
01:00:06.420 --> 01:00:10.079
much of a romantic involvement as every other level in both

1267
01:00:10.079 --> 01:00:11.760
historically and in the narrative.

1268
01:00:11.820 --> 01:00:14.159
Like the camaraderie of...

1269
01:00:14.219 --> 01:00:15.480
And the fraternity.

1270
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:16.380
Yeah.

1271
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:19.920
It's a theme of fraternity in this series, definitely.

1272
01:00:20.039 --> 01:00:21.360
Fraternity and ants.

1273
01:00:21.420 --> 01:00:23.400
That's the one, flight through fraternity.

1274
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:27.780
Oh, did we mention they were?

1275
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:30.480
In fact, there is another skirmish of India.

1276
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:31.139
Yes, of course.

1277
01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:35.219
Oh, I accidentally mentioned that in state down.

1278
01:00:35.280 --> 01:00:38.159
Yeah. and ants.

1279
01:00:38.219 --> 01:00:39.599
Is it Tuti Lemka?

1280
01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:43.139
I believe it's Tuti Lemko doing it, but intro...

1281
01:00:43.139 --> 01:00:44.219
It's Lemkov.

1282
01:00:44.460 --> 01:00:47.460
I'm assuming that that OW is...

1283
01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:47.940
I like it.

1284
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:49.559
I just like...

1285
01:00:49.559 --> 01:00:51.960
He's once a season, isn't he?

1286
01:00:52.019 --> 01:00:53.579
He's scandalous.

1287
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:54.900
He's Michael Sheer.

1288
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:57.360
He made Marco Poland.

1289
01:00:57.420 --> 01:01:00.360
And then when Michael Sheard turns up in season three, we never

1290
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:01.619
see Tooty Lemkoff again.

1291
01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:02.699
Coincidence?

1292
01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:03.960
I think so.

1293
01:01:04.019 --> 01:01:05.579
Maybe, don't you think?

1294
01:01:05.639 --> 01:01:08.280
Maybe he had surgery of some kind.

1295
01:01:08.340 --> 01:01:10.199
Yes, surgery to his name.

1296
01:01:10.739 --> 01:01:17.219
But another behind the scenes titbit about that scene of Ian

1297
01:01:17.219 --> 01:01:21.119
getting staked out in the desert, for the inserts of, for the

1298
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:23.519
inserts of his actual arm and the ants on his arm.

1299
01:01:23.579 --> 01:01:28.079
William Russell was called for a filming day, but said, no, I

1300
01:01:28.079 --> 01:01:30.539
don't want to do that because that's actual honey.

1301
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:31.980
Those are actual ants. don't want to do that.

1302
01:01:32.039 --> 01:01:36.420
And so it was the production assistant, Victor's Rotellus, who

1303
01:01:36.420 --> 01:01:38.219
went on to direct episodes of Blake 7.

1304
01:01:38.280 --> 01:01:41.820
No, the 2nd last episode of Blake's episode, Blake 7, Warlord.

1305
01:01:41.880 --> 01:01:45.659
He went on to direct that as well as other productions as well.

1306
01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:48.780
He actually stepped in and it's his arm smothered in honey and

1307
01:01:48.780 --> 01:01:49.500
ants.

1308
01:01:49.500 --> 01:01:54.360
And he did say that they didn't buy him, but he quite understands

1309
01:01:54.360 --> 01:01:58.199
why William Russell didn't want to do it. to a major cast member

1310
01:01:58.199 --> 01:01:58.619
isn't it?

1311
01:01:58.679 --> 01:02:00.059
Speaking of major castle members.

1312
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:03.300
Do you know who was up for it if Julian Glover was not available?

1313
01:02:03.360 --> 01:02:06.539
And was almost not going to be available because of his stage

1314
01:02:06.539 --> 01:02:09.000
commitments, none other than Nicholas Courtney.

1315
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:09.300
Yes.

1316
01:02:09.300 --> 01:02:10.440
Would have played Richard first.

1317
01:02:10.500 --> 01:02:14.280
So they would have played brother and sister again.

1318
01:02:14.460 --> 01:02:16.679
Again for the 1st time.

1319
01:02:17.159 --> 01:02:19.260
I may be wrong on this.

1320
01:02:19.320 --> 01:02:22.079
Both of your historical knowledge is better than mine.

1321
01:02:22.139 --> 01:02:25.800
But is it true that there was some talk that Richard and Joanna

1322
01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:27.480
may have been more than just siblings?

1323
01:02:27.539 --> 01:02:30.659
No, no, no, no, no. script and Billy outlawed it.

1324
01:02:30.719 --> 01:02:32.940
It's in Whittaker's script that's definitely...

1325
01:02:33.000 --> 01:02:34.079
Richard was supposed to be gay.

1326
01:02:34.139 --> 01:02:36.900
Well, look, we don't actually have much references to that.

1327
01:02:36.900 --> 01:02:41.340
We have 2 extent ones is that he shared a bed with another

1328
01:02:41.340 --> 01:02:42.900
gentleman or several other gentlemen.

1329
01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.000
People always say, oh, but everyone did it, though.

1330
01:02:45.119 --> 01:02:46.139
They actually did.

1331
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:47.099
Beds were very rare.

1332
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:48.179
Probably normal.

1333
01:02:48.300 --> 01:02:52.019
A bunch of good friends would get into bed together, just to chat

1334
01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:52.559
actually.

1335
01:02:52.619 --> 01:02:55.019
It was very hard to hunt down a fresh bed.

1336
01:02:55.139 --> 01:02:56.519
No, they really did do it.

1337
01:02:56.579 --> 01:02:57.239
I could imagine.

1338
01:02:58.800 --> 01:03:03.599
I seemed very happy to leave Berengaria in the acre or acme or

1339
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:04.920
wherever the hell that was.

1340
01:03:05.039 --> 01:03:08.099
I think it's more to do with, he actually considered, he didn't

1341
01:03:08.099 --> 01:03:10.559
say exactly these words, but he considered England something of a

1342
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:14.039
pit, and he was really glad to get away from it and a lovely son

1343
01:03:14.039 --> 01:03:16.679
and having a bit of a romp and save his soul.

1344
01:03:16.739 --> 01:03:19.559
No, he saw this as an expansion of the empire and also that the

1345
01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:20.159
infidels.

1346
01:03:20.219 --> 01:03:23.519
What this holy crusade was actually about, this murdering Jews on

1347
01:03:23.519 --> 01:03:27.900
their way, there was a huge massacre of Jews in York in 1096.

1348
01:03:28.139 --> 01:03:30.900
So this is almost 100 years before this 3rd crusade.

1349
01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:34.139
And there was another massacre of Jews on the way for this 3rd one

1350
01:03:34.139 --> 01:03:35.760
but it was...

1351
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:37.920
Christians and stuff incidentally as well.

1352
01:03:37.980 --> 01:03:40.019
I mean, it's all just terrible, crazy.

1353
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:43.980
But it was really just about, let's put our mark put the Christian

1354
01:03:43.980 --> 01:03:45.780
mark across Europe once and for all.

1355
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:48.539
And take it as far east as we can.

1356
01:03:48.599 --> 01:03:50.519
Can we go into space now?

1357
01:03:50.579 --> 01:03:51.960
I think we can.

1358
01:03:52.019 --> 01:03:53.880
Well, we will be going to space for that.

1359
01:03:53.940 --> 01:03:57.119
Sadly, all we have time for on this episode of Flight Through

1360
01:03:57.119 --> 01:04:00.539
Entirety, but we will be back next week, your time, and after a

1361
01:04:00.539 --> 01:04:01.860
lubric, our time.

1362
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:03.599
So, gentlemen, would you like to say goodbye?

1363
01:04:03.659 --> 01:04:05.400
Well, good, good night for me.

1364
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:07.199
And good night for the infidels.

1365
01:04:07.260 --> 01:04:09.480
Infidels everywhere.

1366
01:04:09.539 --> 01:04:10.920
Sleep well.

1367
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:19.440
You have been listening to Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Botley

1368
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:20.760
Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone.

1369
01:04:20.820 --> 01:04:23.579
This episode, why can't I wear trousers, when it's recorded on

1370
01:04:23.579 --> 01:04:25.559
Sunday, the 6th of July, 2014.

1371
01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:28.380
The next episode will be released on August the third.

1372
01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:31.679
You can find us at Flightcherentirety.com, flat your entirety on

1373
01:04:31.679 --> 01:04:34.739
Facebook and iTunes or FTE podcast on Twitter.

1374
01:04:34.800 --> 01:04:37.260
We're all right, but we're not all that good.

1375
01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:46.199
Okay, so Brendan, future, Brendan, you're dropping that bit into

1376
01:04:46.199 --> 01:04:46.980
episode two.

1377
01:04:47.039 --> 01:04:48.119
So there you go.

1378
01:04:48.179 --> 01:04:50.340
Don't say I never give you anything.

1379
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:52.619
Oh, I talked to future Nathan as well.

1380
01:04:55.380 --> 01:04:58.739
You know, like in class, in the middle of conversations with other

1381
01:04:58.739 --> 01:05:00.119
people, that sort of thing.