WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:16:45 1 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:36.899 Hello, dear listeners and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who wouldn't even say no to a salami sandwich. 2 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:37.500 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:38.520 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:39.420 And I'm Todd. 5 00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:43.619 And we are here today to discuss Lewis Mark's final script for the series. 6 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:48.600 We're having a bit of a party despite the fact the world's coming to an end in the Mask of Man Dragger up. 7 00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:57.479 Right, Nathan. 8 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:04.920 The randomiser has assigned this story to you, which I'm greatly looking forward to knowing your love for historicals and your love for Lewis Marx. 9 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:07.200 So, I'm sure you really enjoyed this one. 10 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:16.379 Well, you know, ever since I was a child, I actually thought this one was a little bit dull, and I think the main reason is that there isn't really a monster. 11 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:21.180 There's a sort of red sparkler that attacks people, but there's no one in a rubber suit, menacing anyone. 12 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.379 There's, you know, a lamentable lack of sontarans and tteraleptils and things. 13 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:41.640 And so when I'd watched it, this time I had kind of hoped that with my sort of newfound maturity and my long experience of watching Doctor Who that I might find a sort of more grown-up, you know, interpretation or a more grown-up kind of assessment of it. 14 00:01:41.700 --> 00:01:51.540 And I have to say that while the story has a huge amount going for it, I still think it's pretty tiresome. 15 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:52.920 Oh, no. 16 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.560 We don't even have any wine to take a drink with this episode. 17 00:01:55.739 --> 00:02:00.659 Well, Todd, I know you're going to be glad to hear this. 18 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.340 I don't mind this one too much. 19 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:07.019 I have my problems with it, but on the whole, I quite enjoy it. 20 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:14.520 Oh, I've got my hands and my head like, oh, it's great to be backlisted. 21 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:19.620 I adore this as a child and I just love this. 22 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:21.000 I even love it now. 23 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:24.360 I know there's flaws, but I still love it. 24 00:02:24.419 --> 00:02:26.699 So let's talk about why it's good. 25 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:27.479 Do you know what I mean? 26 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:29.819 Because I think that we can spend quite a lot of time on that. 27 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:31.680 It looks spectacular. 28 00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:34.439 From the sets to the location work. 29 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:41.460 I love the whole altar temple and the way in which it's all dark and then the Madragara Helix brings it back to life. 30 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:42.900 I mean, do you like that? 31 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.159 I think that's terrific. 32 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:45.240 It's so well done. 33 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:48.419 And I think what it is, I think it's black gauze, isn't it? 34 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:52.919 And the paintings are behind the black gauze, so they only appear when they're lit in a certain way. 35 00:02:52.979 --> 00:02:54.120 It's so effective. 36 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:58.080 It looks like an incredibly expensive effect, but it's actually been achieved really simply. 37 00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:00.000 And as for those locations. 38 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:02.099 You know, where are we? 39 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:04.500 Convention anecdote number 264. 40 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:12.659 We are, of course, in Port Marion, the famous location, or rather the location made famous by Patrick Maguan series, The Prisoner. 41 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:26.939 Now, when I was watching this story with Rod, he is a huge fan of the prisoner, but I didn't mention beforehand where it was, about halfway through episode one, he says, hold on, that's number 2's house. 42 00:03:28.139 --> 00:03:32.039 And for that reason, he adored the story. 43 00:03:32.099 --> 00:03:32.879 We got to the end of it. 44 00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:34.860 He said, I don't know what happened with the plot. 45 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:35.340 I don't care. 46 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:36.060 We're in the village. 47 00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:40.139 And they dress the location as well. 48 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:41.580 It isn't just the location. 49 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:45.780 It's some crazy Welsh guy who like built some Renaissance village. 50 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:46.740 Yeah, yeah, you know. 51 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:47.099 Yeah. 52 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:53.639 My favourite use of the location is actually the market street where there's a few chase scenes through that. 53 00:03:53.699 --> 00:03:57.719 And I just think that looks so so gorgeous. 54 00:03:57.780 --> 00:04:02.819 You know, it reminds me of Disney's Aladdin, which has it seen in the market. 55 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:04.199 It's seen in the marketplace. 56 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:08.219 You know, it looks properly historical. 57 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:21.540 I mean, as a child, when I was watching this, I never realised that they didn't go to Italy or it was some location, like when Sarah's walking through the orchard or when they're getting chased or whatever. didn't realise they'd taped the oranges to the trees. 58 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:29.639 No, I just thought it was a gorgeous location and wherever it was, it really was like it was in Renaissance Italy. 59 00:04:29.699 --> 00:04:31.920 Yeah, it looks just spectacular. 60 00:04:31.980 --> 00:04:34.379 And then, and then we go indoors into the studio. 61 00:04:34.379 --> 00:04:41.519 And the sense of like Barry Newbury, and they're fantastically detailed, like there's so much going on in each one of them. 62 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:49.019 And there's some that look like a great big marble hall with pillars and like Hieronymus' studio has all this stuff in it. 63 00:04:49.019 --> 00:04:59.819 And they all have these windows and, you know, they don't look massively convincing, but it's really rare to have windows that Sky is visible through in sets in Doctor Who and they look great. 64 00:04:59.879 --> 00:05:03.660 And I think that's one of the strengths, is they don't try and do anything outside with that sky. 65 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:15.480 It's just a blue sky and you know you're in a room and I think it's one of the things that I'm picking up more and more through homes of script editor is that a lot of things are based around We've got this set or this room. 66 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:23.819 We don't necessarily need to see outside and we get from one to the other and certainly, you know, having the location work and that in this story, you know, enhances all that. 67 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:28.319 You don't necessarily see outside of Juliana's mansion or whatever it happens to be. 68 00:05:28.379 --> 00:05:31.439 It's simple and it's effective. and you're in that moment. 69 00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:33.480 And then we got the costumes. 70 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:39.600 A lot of the costumes come from a 1954 film version of Romeo and Juliet, apparently. 71 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:40.560 Oh, right. 72 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.160 You know, everyone just looks terrific. 73 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:47.279 Sarah looks spectacular in episode 4 for the mask. 74 00:05:47.339 --> 00:05:49.439 Oh, she's gorgeous. 75 00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:51.420 And I love her other outfit as well, you know? 76 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.259 Yeah, yeah. 77 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:54.360 Liz just looks amazing. 78 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:56.579 It's very 70s, the outfit, isn't it? 79 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.639 It's very period, but it works really well in that era too. 80 00:05:59.699 --> 00:06:00.540 It's beautiful. 81 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:05.100 You could imagine Margot Led better getting around in that in an episode of The Good Life. 82 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:10.319 I was gonna say you can imagine, you can imagine Felicity Kendall, but no, it's really more of a Margot outfit, I think. 83 00:06:10.379 --> 00:06:16.860 Yeah, yeah, it's really nice to see Sarah doing sort of something different with the dancing and all that sort of stuff in episode four. 84 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:18.000 It's really nice, you know? 85 00:06:18.060 --> 00:06:19.500 And, you know, 0 my god. 86 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:25.560 Despite the fact that she's almost been sacrificed in the story, she actually gets to have fun in this one. 87 00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:29.279 You know, she gets to wander around the countryside and eat an orange. 88 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:36.660 She gets to go on a dance with a handsome, handsome prince, despite the fact he's probably not that interested in her more on that story later. 89 00:06:37.379 --> 00:06:40.019 Getting back to Barry Newbury, though. 90 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:44.879 Of course, we have Barry Newberry's Tartar set. 91 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.220 Oh, do you like it? 92 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:47.819 don't like it? 93 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.120 Oh, I usually see that face on Nathan. 94 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:55.620 Can I just say, 99% of this set I adore. 95 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.660 There's only one thing I don't like about it. 96 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.399 That'd not be the door. 97 00:06:59.459 --> 00:07:01.319 And that's that's the black. 98 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:03.420 It is the door. 99 00:07:03.420 --> 00:07:06.600 The blackness in the middle, in the door. 100 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:11.459 Like I love it in all the other sets where you can open on straight out to things. 101 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:22.980 That, to me, is a little plot device, which is going to come back into play in 2 stories time that's just so convenient, which really gets my goat, but I'm going to leave that until we discuss that particular story. 102 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.079 But that's the one thing I don't like. 103 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:26.279 I like the door. 104 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:28.860 Yeah, yeah, especially with the transporter pad. 105 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:29.639 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 106 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:31.800 I like leaning up to it and everything like that. 107 00:07:31.860 --> 00:07:36.420 I just wish there was some sort of... door to that blackness. 108 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:37.620 It's just the one thing. 109 00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:46.379 It solves the problem of previous tartar sets where the inner and outer doors are just completely, like there's just no way of reconciling them. 110 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:56.759 And so when when they're on Earth in 1980 in Pyramids of Mars and you're looking in, you can kind of see the exterior of the interior doors and stuff and that's happened before. 111 00:07:56.819 --> 00:08:04.259 It didn't quite work and they've solved it in the new series in a wonderful way by having the interior doors be police box doors, which I just think is terrific. 112 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:07.439 And that comes from the Cushing movies. yeah. 113 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:09.779 So I think that that solves that problem. 114 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.800 But it's a great, you know, all the railings and stuff. 115 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:16.620 It's like a ship and yeah, yeah. 116 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:22.920 And and it's the scanner that we have for the rest of the the classic series, the scanner that survives. 117 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:23.220 Yeah. 118 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:27.000 The one part of the set I don't like is actually the console. 119 00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:28.620 Why, because you don't have a time rotor? 120 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:34.440 Well, it's not so much that you don't have the rotor, but it's on casters and quite often when Tom touches it. 121 00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:34.980 It moves. 122 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.100 It's very obviously a piece of moveable scenery. 123 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:42.299 And, you know, they could have recessed it into the ground and still had it removable. 124 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:43.620 I understand why it's removable. 125 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:54.840 And again, it's not so much the lack of the rotor, but Hinchcliffe and later Graham Williams kind of made the decision that they didn't really like it because it wasn't visually interesting. 126 00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:56.279 And I do have to agree with that. 127 00:08:56.340 --> 00:09:05.879 And maybe you don't, maybe you don't need the rotor for that, but when you open those panels, you don't just want to see push buttons, you know, you want to see something into it. 128 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.679 It needs to be a beset itself is beautiful. 129 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:13.679 It needs to be a bit bigger and a bit more stuff on the actual console. 130 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:15.539 Yeah, yeah, it is rows of coloured button. 131 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:29.159 So I gather that the reason for it, and correct me if I'm wrong, gentlemen, is that there was some kind of demarkation issue between, you know, which department exactly was responsible for operating the time rotor. 132 00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:35.100 And so they created a console that didn't have the time rotor in order to solve the problem. 133 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:36.899 You know, I think that makes a lot of sense. 134 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:49.080 The thing was plagued with industrial action, as we'll discover, in the next few years, and I, look, I could be completely wrong about that, but that's the fan myth that I sort of knew about. 135 00:09:49.139 --> 00:09:51.059 Going back to the look of all of this. 136 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:56.039 I absolutely adore the masks of the brethren. 137 00:09:56.100 --> 00:10:01.860 I love the fact that, you've got the leader, you've got the deputy and then you've got the minions. 138 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.220 I like that sort of structured things. and the robes. 139 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:06.659 I just you know, they're really creepy. 140 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:18.840 But then at the freaking ball, like the ram's head and that other thing, they just freak me out every time and the way it shot like from that angle and shooting people. 141 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.399 Yeah, I mean, when the brethren appear. 142 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:21.539 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 143 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:26.340 I'm just like, you know, all of that, just really... 144 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.259 And again, the brethren's masks. 145 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:33.899 And I know I've talked about comedia de latte before, but they're very much sculpted in that style. 146 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:38.039 You know, Barry Newbury has really done his, really done his research. 147 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:44.220 And of course, this was at the time when the BBC Shakespeare was in full swing. 148 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:49.679 This is around the time a few years after this, I think we had John Cleese in Taming of the Shrew. 149 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:50.940 Yeah, yeah. 150 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:57.000 I watched lots of those BBC Shakespeares at school and I think I tried to get hold of some of them sort of myself. 151 00:10:57.059 --> 00:11:01.259 And certainly the sets are a bit like that season of Shakespeare. 152 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:04.980 Certainly the windows are heaps like it, and the kind of fag staginess of it. 153 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:08.220 I love Tom's lion mask that he wears. 154 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.919 Yes, and then he then he's silly in it, you know, and irritates Sarah. 155 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.100 I think there are other good things to say as well. 156 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:28.259 It sort of has a strong, you know, thematic thing and maybe it's a little bit obvious and that's the, you know, superstition versus science and progress. 157 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:37.440 And so you get Hieronymus and Federico to some extent, but basically Hieronymus and the cult of Damnos representing superstition and religion and things. 158 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:43.259 And then you get Giuliano and maybe the doctor representing progress. 159 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:56.399 And the threat that Mandrago poses is that human beings will stop investigating things, they'll stop learning science, you know, and everyone invited to the ball is, you know, there's great thinkers and philosophers. 160 00:11:56.460 --> 00:11:58.139 It's not just great noblemen. 161 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:13.320 The waters are muddied a little bit, I think, by the fact that Mandragara is right and Hieronymus is right, you know, and the fact that Mandragara operates on astrological principles, you know, it'll become powerful when Mandragara swallows the moon and so on. 162 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:25.740 And so, I guess the idea is that because Mandragara operates on these principles, if it takes over the world, the world will be, you know, a place where it's all governed by magic and astrology and things. 163 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:29.279 Yeah, well, the thing is, I'm not sure if it's exactly that. 164 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:30.179 I think it's more. 165 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.519 Advanced science being indistinguishable from magic. 166 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:54.779 So the reason that Mandragra becomes more powerful when the Mandragra constellation eats the moon is not because of the astrological significance of that, it's because that is when the energy is aligned and that leads the human perception to being an astrological magical perception. 167 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.480 Oh, sure, but I mean, Mandraga is a lie. 168 00:12:57.539 --> 00:12:58.320 Do you know what I mean? 169 00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:05.700 thematically with the idea of, you know, retarding human progress. and with Hieronymus and that kind of thing. 170 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:07.320 And so, is that a problem? 171 00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:08.220 No, no, no. 172 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:09.179 I think that's another good thing. 173 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:14.460 There's a strong kind of formatic thing, which I love all that stuff that Auronymous goes... 174 00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:15.360 All of his predictions. 175 00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:23.039 It's just wonder if I just sit there basking in it, even if, you know, it's it's not accurate or whatever, I just love the dialogue and and... 176 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:27.419 Well, just I have a glow about myself when he starts, you know, spurting all that stuff. 177 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:28.919 I just I just sit there smiling. 178 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:30.659 Well, in fact, he's brilliant. 179 00:13:30.779 --> 00:13:31.679 Oh, wonderful. 180 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.379 That's Norman Jones, who's been in the show twice before. 181 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:39.240 He was cre-song, of course, in Abominable Snowman. and who was wonderful in that. 182 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:40.740 And then he was in the Southern? 183 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.960 Yeah, he's a major baker in the Silurians. 184 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:44.639 And again, 2 terrific performances. 185 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.019 And he's wonderful here. 186 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:50.820 He's got that rich Welsh voice and a fabulous beard and like a great costume. 187 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:52.799 He's a real highlight, I think. 188 00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:55.559 I thought it was just Giuliano, her beard, but moving on. 189 00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:57.840 But I really look, I think he's fantastic. 190 00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:01.139 But I also love Count Federico. 191 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:13.139 I love it in Doctor Who, when you've got these villains who think they are the be all and end all, but there's actually something worse than them and they don't realise it. yeah And they're going to get their cup, what's the word I'm looking for? 192 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.580 Come up, correct. 193 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.039 And you know it, but they don't know it. 194 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.279 And then it's so satisfying when it actually does happen. 195 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:20.580 You know? 196 00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:21.360 Yeah, yeah. 197 00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:23.279 Although at the end of part three. 198 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.460 The cliphanger for part 3 is Frederico being killed. 199 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:27.240 Yeah. 200 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:27.720 Yeah. 201 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:32.039 And it's always interesting when Doctor Who does a cliffhanger about a villain. 202 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:37.379 So one of the other big examples is the master being threatened by a Zaal in the demons. 203 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:44.759 And I think we do have a thematic resonance here with the demons of this alien entity judging humanity's progress. 204 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:47.220 And one that's associated with magic. 205 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.720 And one that's associated with magic. 206 00:14:48.779 --> 00:14:56.639 I actually think this is more effective than the Damons in that regard because the Mandragara Helix is such a different life form. 207 00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:07.379 And despite the fact, you know, it doesn't have much of a physical presence of itself, I was terrified of it as a child because of that first peasant at kills. 208 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:16.259 And, you know, the flesh is bubbled and burned and turned blue and yeah, that is an image that has burned itself onto my consciousness. 209 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:22.200 And the doctor's reaction, his utter horror and shame at having been the one who's responsible for this. 210 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.759 It's very powerful. 211 00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:35.820 I agree with you and as a kid, like all of the contusions and that reminded me of when you go out into the forest and you see a tree that's been filled and they've got all moths and all sorts of stuff going on. 212 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:37.440 It just reminded me of that sort of look. 213 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.179 And that stuck with me as a kid. 214 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.580 They really linger on it in part two. 215 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.840 There's like quite a close-up for quite a prolonged time of one of the dead guards. 216 00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:52.379 It is, uh, it's uh, the usual sort of Hinchcliffe, slightly too horrible for tea time. 217 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.500 But it's no surprise that it's memorable. 218 00:15:55.559 --> 00:16:03.960 And I think that cliffhanger of episode 3 that you mentioned is also one of just the most memorable moments, this whole season, and I think we'll come back to it over and over again. 219 00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:08.100 This season is like Doctor Who for me. 220 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.879 This is this is the bit that I watched over and over again as a kid. 221 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:19.740 It's the season that I remember just maybe the best of all, you know, even more so than maybe 12 or 13. 222 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:24.720 I think this is the this is the season that's etched itself into my memory. 223 00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:29.580 And I think from the following season onwards, and I could be wrong about this, I will have to look it up. 224 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:39.600 I was aware that there were these were new seasons sort of coming along and I think season 16 is my 1st real proper memory of that, but I had a vague idea of about that with season 15. 225 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:47.039 So season 14 has a huge place in my memory and for that reason I have a real fondness for these stories. 226 00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:49.980 Even when they're not that good sometimes. 227 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:57.960 Oh, I'm gonna echo what you're saying, because we have similar age, and this season for me is full of so many memorable moments. 228 00:16:58.019 --> 00:17:02.039 But after this season, then I think I'm aware that new stuff is coming after this point. 229 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:05.400 Can we talk about some of the characters in this other characters in this story? 230 00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:06.000 think so. 231 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.220 And one of the things that always struck me as a kid. 232 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.960 Giuliano, who, who I really adored as a character. 233 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.359 He's got the worst wig though, doesn't he? 234 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:17.400 Yeah, that might be true. 235 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:21.240 But, you know, well, you could swish it around, you know, I thought that's kind of cool. 236 00:17:21.299 --> 00:17:22.799 I think it's just the fringe really. 237 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:23.700 It's the fringe. 238 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:27.599 The fringe introduces Marco is his companion. 239 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.000 Is his companion? 240 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:30.599 Yes, yes, yes. 241 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:32.160 My loyal companion, Marco. 242 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:36.900 When he did that as a charter, I was, I just like thinking, that's a strange thing to say. 243 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:39.599 Discuss. 244 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:43.500 What is there to say? 245 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:53.160 Well, yeah, I, the whole Giuliano Marco thing is, no matter what's going on, it's quite wonderful. whether they're just friends or whether there is something more there. 246 00:17:53.220 --> 00:18:03.900 And despite the conservative nature of television in the 1970s, you know, I think we're still Mr. Humphreys is only just a new thing on TV at this point. 247 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.079 Quentin Crisp is, of course, still making waves. 248 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:18.839 But, um, I think regardless of their, of their actual relationship in the script, I think there is a conscious effort to imply there is something else going on. 249 00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:23.819 But even if There isn't. 250 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:43.859 At the very least, there is an incredibly loyal friendship between them and camaraderie, because there's the bit where they're both being tortured and they both refuse to give up or recant the other, which, you know, is either a heartwarming friendship or heartbreakingly romantic. 251 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.839 There's a bromance going on. 252 00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:48.539 In fact, there's so many romances in this. 253 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:50.819 You've got Count Federico and Rossini. 254 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.359 You've got Heronymus and the priest. 255 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:55.319 Shipping them. 256 00:18:55.500 --> 00:18:58.079 There's these duos all the way through. 257 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:01.319 Yeah, there's, there's your 3 pairings. 258 00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:04.380 Of course, well done production team. 259 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:14.339 We've got no other women besides Sarah Jane and a few nondescript people at the ball, which is very strange. you know, They could have worked in. 260 00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:16.319 And, you know, being this period in history. 261 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.779 They didn't have women in this period of history. 262 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.480 Well, that's why Giuliano and Marco have to be. 263 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:23.279 So, like the Time Warrior. 264 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:28.920 They could have worked in a character like Meg, because Meg, in the time war, it was fantastic, the head of the kitchen. 265 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:30.900 Give someone a sister, for God's sake. 266 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.839 It's not that hard. one of the brethren, mean woman? 267 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.819 don't know They would have been sister on them. 268 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.819 What do you think of the hairdo of the... 269 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:40.799 The deputy leader of the brethren. 270 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.380 He's the guy from that 1st episode of Blake 7. 271 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:44.339 Robert James, yeah. 272 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:45.599 He's less Van Glynde. 273 00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:46.980 Yeah, he's Leicesterson. 274 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:47.519 Oh, is he? 275 00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:48.240 Lesterson, listen. 276 00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:49.019 Lester listened. 277 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:49.500 Wow. 278 00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:53.700 What do you think of the moustache swirling of the executioner? 279 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:55.200 That's Jerry Walsh. 280 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:55.920 Really? 281 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:56.519 Yep. 282 00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:57.779 Terry Walsh watch. 283 00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:58.500 That's Terry. 284 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.319 And then he got changed into Tom's costume to jump off the gala. 285 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:09.839 Can I just say that is one of the ropey elements in this story when Terry plays Tom, whether it be off the horse or doing sword fighting? 286 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:11.400 so obvious. really obvious. 287 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:17.819 I think, I mean, we've got an eagle eye for Terry after all this time, but the whole body language is just wrong. 288 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.599 Yeah, yeah. 289 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:24.000 You know, I think I think possibly Terry spent so long getting trying to get John Pertley's body language down. 290 00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:25.920 And he had it pretty well by the end. 291 00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:31.859 You know, he would stand like John Pertwee in the fight scenes that maybe it's not happening. 292 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.859 So we're here, plus Tom's physicality is so unique. 293 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:39.599 You know, even John Colshaw, who does the amazing impersonation of Tom. 294 00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:42.240 He doesn't try to stand like Tom Baker because no one can. 295 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:48.240 The executioner, like the actual going to chop the doctor's head off. 296 00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:50.039 Have we seen that before in Doctor Who? 297 00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:53.579 Yeah, wasn't it going to happen in the time warrior? 298 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:54.539 Is that the only other time? 299 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.519 And then it happens later in the visitation. 300 00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.039 Oh, well, that's spoilers, people, we don't know what to know. 301 00:20:59.099 --> 00:20:59.819 That is the worst. 302 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.420 Like, I actually think the doctor's about to be executed. 303 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.259 Cliffhanger is really terrible because you know he's not going to be. 304 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.079 It's the most boring possible way of putting him in peril. 305 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:13.259 And in the visitation, of course, someone comes in and says, no, wait. 306 00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:15.180 And that puts a stop. 307 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.319 Here at least, you know, he leaps onto a horse and does some fabulous staring too and stuff. 308 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:23.279 But I think we're getting close to the objections that I have to this story. 309 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:28.500 Overwhelmingly, it is that the action is a bit trite. 310 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:36.180 And so Sarah is being sacrificed by a bunch of cultists, the doctors going to be executed by Federico. 311 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.220 There's a lot of standing. 312 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:45.839 Moffin has that line about classic Doctor Who being a lot of people standing urgently in corridors, talking urgently in corridors, sort of thing. 313 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:54.900 There's a lot of just laboriously explaining what's going on to each other, and a lot of scenes that don't really contribute to the plot very much. 314 00:21:54.960 --> 00:22:08.400 And the whole thing just goes to hell, I think, in episode 4 where there's a giant attack on the palace by the brethren, which is entirely narrated by Marco, that we see absolutely nothing of. 315 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:10.200 We don't see them going through the streets. 316 00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:12.539 We don't see them hounding out the villages. 317 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:20.819 There's this big giant climactic attack, you know, this whole mask is being besieged, and we don't get a single shot of the breath run until they get into the room. 318 00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:30.420 Okay, but I mean, that's true enough, but I kind of see it as what Bob Holmes is trying to do is to bring things back into just rooms and the characters that you know. 319 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:36.299 And so for me, it's like, yes, this is happening outside, but we care about Sarah, we care about what's happening in the palace. 320 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:41.339 So I actually go with that and I actually see it as not a limitation of the story. 321 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:45.900 I actually see it as being, well, you know, if we had to go and film that and do that, it could really crap. 322 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:47.759 So let's not even go there. 323 00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:48.900 Let's just keep it back. 324 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.880 And for me, so I don't have a problem with that. 325 00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:53.759 I can see I take your point of view, but I don't have a problem with it. 326 00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:55.920 And also, it's the Shakespearean tradition. 327 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:09.119 Because if you look at Macbeth, the 1st scene of Macbeth is a soldier telling King Duncan how wonderful Macbeth was in battle and how he sliced up 200 of the enemy soldiers all by himself, you never see it. 328 00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:15.359 And then the next scene after that is the witches discussing the battle and, you know, it's all these people talking about battles. 329 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:27.359 So, yeah, I mean, I'd never had a problem with that again, because, as Todd says, it's the intimacy of these of these characters, not just the doctor and Sarah, but we've come to quite know Giuliano and Marco by this point as well. 330 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:40.859 And the scene, I think, really helps with that very early on, is that scene where Giuliano is talking with Sarah about how he believes there are other worlds around the lights in the sky. 331 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:50.220 And last season, we were talking about how Sarah loses a bit of her humanity as she sort of becomes a bit aloof and a bit above things. 332 00:23:50.279 --> 00:24:04.500 This is a scene where Sarah regains a lot of that humanity because, of course, she doesn't want to say to Marco, oh, yes, you're absolutely right, and I'm from the stars, because that's my, you know, that might be a bit overwhelming, but she just listens and says, oh, go on. 333 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.200 Wow, you know, I think you might be right. 334 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:15.420 I think, you know, from, it could be performed as patronising, but I don't think that Liz Slaton performs it as patronising. 335 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.700 She performs it as, I know you're absolutely right. 336 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.819 But this is about your idea. 337 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.380 This isn't about me validating you. 338 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:28.440 You know, she, she, she's letting him take the stage in this conversation despite the fact she knows better. 339 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:33.000 I know I haven't been around for the last discussions that you've had in the last few episodes. 340 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:44.640 But for me, even when I watched this as a kid, in terms of Elizabeth Stone's performance, I always had this feeling that there was a difference in her performance, like there was just a feeling, I just, there's something different here. 341 00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:53.819 And I think maybe because she knows that she's leaving and I think when you leave a job, you do change, like you do in the months leading up to it if you've got a deadline. 342 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:55.440 And it's still a great performance. 343 00:24:55.500 --> 00:25:00.660 Don't get me wrong, but there's just this feeling that there's a difference in Sarah and I can't really quite put my finger on it. 344 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:10.559 I guess the 1st scene where she's walking in the corridor with the doctor in the TARDIS and they have the discussion about being from earth or human or whatever it is. 345 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:21.299 And it's struck me that in the new series, Jackie has this conversation with Rhodes about the fact that over time you'll lose yourself and not, you'll just be this nondescript woman in the crowd. 346 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.799 You haven't heard our episode Planet of Evil podcast episode yet. 347 00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:27.240 Because I bring exactly that up. 348 00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:28.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 349 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:36.059 But I kind of feel that now having watched this through and having, you know, I had no connection with the brand of movies because I never saw it as a kid. 350 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:47.220 But I now look back and I see that they keep bringing Sarah back to Earth and she's a journalist and, you know, that still happens in Zygons and Kermins and Mars and Android Invasion. 351 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.039 But after that time, it just goes away. 352 00:25:50.099 --> 00:26:00.240 And it becomes Sarah Jane Smith, Wonder Woman, where she's put through all these trials of things and survives, you know, falling downstairs, blindness, mincing machines. 353 00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:08.160 She's going to survive a frigging cliff explosion. like, you know, like she is Wonder Woman, but she's suddenly not, she's not the journalist anymore. 354 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:09.480 She could be anywhere. 355 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:16.019 And there is this difference that I am now perceiving, you know, through these last few episodes and here as well. 356 00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:26.279 I think it is a function of the problem that the production team has with women, honestly, where Sarah gets turned from a person into a plot device. 357 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.480 And so she gets into peril and she survives it. 358 00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:38.039 Here, there's that, you know, she gets hypnotised and it's, she does 2 stories this season, in each of them, she gets hypnotised. 359 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.440 So she's hypnotised to kill the doctor here. 360 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:43.440 I just think that's really not very interesting. 361 00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:52.859 And again, cliched and try it, you know, sacrificed the virgin sacrifice, the being hypnotised, all of these things that happened to her. 362 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.880 And just a lot of the action is really not very novel or interesting. 363 00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:02.279 And Sarah really suffers from it because by now she isn't any recognisable human being. 364 00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:05.460 You know, she goes through all these things with no ill effects. 365 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:13.619 You know, she might bitch about them a little bit afterwards, but really, she's stopped being anyone that you can really properly recognise as a person. 366 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:21.359 I guess one thing I like about hypnotism is the fact that, yeah, she actually asked the question that's never been asked. 367 00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:24.299 Why can she understand other languages? 368 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:31.680 And I like the fact that Robert Holmes will actually address this and the TARDIS inside, the bigger on inside out with an explanation. this season. 369 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:36.359 So I actually like the purpose of the hypnotism here to actually put that question for this. 370 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:36.839 Oh, I agree. 371 00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:39.599 Because I think it's like an elephant in the room that's never asked. 372 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:53.640 Now, he gives you answers that are really answers that are very vague and no answers, but I kind of like that in my Doctor Who, because I like it being left open rather than this is the definitive fact and we're like Star Trek and this is the way it is and it's just, you know, scientific gobbledy-gook. 373 00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:58.799 I like the fact that it's vague enough that you can make it whatever you want it to and accept it and move on. 374 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:04.140 It leads to that the fabulous fit in fires, Pompeii, where Donna has such fun speaking Latin. 375 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:09.119 Rod and I are currently watching series 4 of Doctor Who. 376 00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:18.599 And it's interesting what Stephen Moffat says about classic Doctor Who being people standing around talking in corridors because what is silence in the library, but people standing around and talking in corridors. 377 00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:20.339 There's loads of it. and it's done really well. 378 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:22.319 But we've also watched Pfizer Pompeii. 379 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:29.099 Something I didn't pick up on the 1st time was whenever the doctor or Donna accidentally used some Latin in Peter Capaldi's presence. 380 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.779 He replies with Welshisms. 381 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:32.039 Hey, there's lovely. 382 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.180 He says at one point. 383 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.140 You know, it's it's really good. 384 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.359 That's just another example of how great Capaldi is. 385 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:51.599 Look, I take your point, Nathan, about the cliches in this, but much like Almost every story last season, Hinchcliffe and Holmes are borrowing from other stories. 386 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:58.619 So the cliches here are stuff they've nicked from Hammer horror films with the Virgin Sacrifice and the hypnotism and what have you. 387 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:02.039 I think what does make the story so special and... 388 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:08.400 I was about to say it's Lewis Mark's best script for the series, but Day of the Daleks is pretty bloody good. 389 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.119 Perhaps it's his best original script then. 390 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:15.900 Because I do think his characterisation is wonderful. 391 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:22.140 I think even though we've got cliched plot events, they're presented with really great style and panache. 392 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:23.640 Cliche pot event. 393 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:25.500 Let's leave the Tartar store open. 394 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:30.599 So space alien energy thing can come to worth. 395 00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:34.319 Like, that's my pet hate in the series, but the doors are left open. 396 00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:35.460 It's like, ah. 397 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:37.200 Didn't you? 398 00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:41.940 I mean, didn't you think it seemed weirdly old-fashioned, though, just the way the way it was plotted? 399 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:42.779 Yeah, but I liked that. 400 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:44.460 It felt like a Hartnell story. 401 00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.180 And it felt like a good Hartnell historical. 402 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.799 You know, you, I could imagine... 403 00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:51.180 They didn't go to the pub or prison. 404 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:53.039 Oh, they did go to prison. 405 00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:54.839 But no, I could easily imagine. 406 00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:57.000 I could easily imagine Billy and Barbara in this. 407 00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:59.460 That would have fixed it for me, actually. 408 00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:04.859 Look, I just adore this and it's one of my favourite stories of all time. 409 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:27.900 Well, dear listener, that is all the time we have for the Mask of Man Dragra, and as everyone knows, after a big party, it's time for a bit of a come down. 410 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:28.619 So next week. 411 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:31.920 Sorry, I'm just laughing, 'cause I'll know what's next win. 412 00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:32.339 Yeah. 413 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:33.480 The hand of fear. 414 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.440 Nathan, the randomiser, put you in charge of that again. 415 00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:47.460 Until then, please check us out online, dear listeners, at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter. 416 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.640 And don't forget to check out bondfinger at bondfinger.com. 417 00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:55.380 We currently have 2 commentaries available, one for Dr. No, and 14 from Russia with love. 418 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.539 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 419 00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.440 Good night. 420 00:30:58.500 --> 00:30:59.339 See you soon. 421 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:06.480 That was Flake Your Entirety with Todd Beelby, Nathan Botany and Brendan Jones. 422 00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:11.339 This episode, a fabulous beard was reported on the 2nd of August. 423 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.819 The next episode within released on September 20th. 424 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.880 We ain't going in there either, Giovanni. 425 00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:20.519 There's nothing but a growling beach ball at the end of that tunnel. 426 00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:28.619 I don't know what happened in the plot. 427 00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:29.940 I don't care, we're in the village. 428 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.079 Sorry. 429 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.720 That was me trying to turn airplane mode off.