WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 14:47:47 1 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:32.820 Hello, dear listeners and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety 2 00:00:32.820 --> 00:00:36.299 the only Doctor Who podcast who wouldn't even say no to a salami 3 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:36.899 sandwich. 4 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:37.500 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:37.560 --> 00:00:38.520 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:39.420 And I'm Todd. 7 00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:43.259 And we are here today to discuss Lewis Mark's final script for the 8 00:00:43.259 --> 00:00:43.619 series. 9 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:46.500 We're having a bit of a party despite the fact the world's coming 10 00:00:46.500 --> 00:00:48.600 to an end in the Mask of Man Dragger up. 11 00:00:55.380 --> 00:00:57.479 Right, Nathan. 12 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.600 The randomiser has assigned this story to you, which I'm greatly 13 00:01:00.600 --> 00:01:04.019 looking forward to knowing your love for historicals and your love 14 00:01:04.019 --> 00:01:04.920 for Lewis Marx. 15 00:01:05.040 --> 00:01:07.200 So, I'm sure you really enjoyed this one. 16 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:11.760 Well, you know, ever since I was a child, I actually thought this 17 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:15.000 one was a little bit dull, and I think the main reason is that 18 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:16.379 there isn't really a monster. 19 00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:19.260 There's a sort of red sparkler that attacks people, but there's no 20 00:01:19.260 --> 00:01:21.180 one in a rubber suit, menacing anyone. 21 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:25.079 There's, you know, a lamentable lack of sontarans and tteraleptils 22 00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:25.379 and things. 23 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:30.000 And so when I'd watched it, this time I had kind of hoped that 24 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:34.439 with my sort of newfound maturity and my long experience of 25 00:01:34.439 --> 00:01:38.819 watching Doctor Who that I might find a sort of more grown-up, you 26 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:41.640 know, interpretation or a more grown-up kind of assessment of it. 27 00:01:41.700 --> 00:01:46.379 And I have to say that while the story has a huge amount going for 28 00:01:46.379 --> 00:01:51.540 it, I still think it's pretty tiresome. 29 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:52.920 Oh, no. 30 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:55.560 We don't even have any wine to take a drink with this episode. 31 00:01:55.739 --> 00:02:00.659 Well, Todd, I know you're going to be glad to hear this. 32 00:02:00.719 --> 00:02:02.340 I don't mind this one too much. 33 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:07.019 I have my problems with it, but on the whole, I quite enjoy it. 34 00:02:07.500 --> 00:02:13.680 Oh, I've got my hands and my head like, oh, it's great to be 35 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:14.520 backlisted. 36 00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:19.620 I adore this as a child and I just love this. 37 00:02:19.680 --> 00:02:21.000 I even love it now. 38 00:02:21.060 --> 00:02:24.360 I know there's flaws, but I still love it. 39 00:02:24.419 --> 00:02:26.699 So let's talk about why it's good. 40 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:27.479 Do you know what I mean? 41 00:02:27.539 --> 00:02:29.819 Because I think that we can spend quite a lot of time on that. 42 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:31.680 It looks spectacular. 43 00:02:31.740 --> 00:02:34.439 From the sets to the location work. 44 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:38.340 I love the whole altar temple and the way in which it's all dark 45 00:02:38.340 --> 00:02:41.460 and then the Madragara Helix brings it back to life. 46 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:42.900 I mean, do you like that? 47 00:02:42.960 --> 00:02:44.159 I think that's terrific. 48 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:45.240 It's so well done. 49 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:48.419 And I think what it is, I think it's black gauze, isn't it? 50 00:02:48.539 --> 00:02:51.539 And the paintings are behind the black gauze, so they only appear 51 00:02:51.539 --> 00:02:52.919 when they're lit in a certain way. 52 00:02:52.979 --> 00:02:54.120 It's so effective. 53 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:57.000 It looks like an incredibly expensive effect, but it's actually 54 00:02:57.000 --> 00:02:58.080 been achieved really simply. 55 00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:00.000 And as for those locations. 56 00:03:00.060 --> 00:03:02.099 You know, where are we? 57 00:03:02.099 --> 00:03:04.500 Convention anecdote number 264. 58 00:03:04.680 --> 00:03:08.819 We are, of course, in Port Marion, the famous location, or rather 59 00:03:08.819 --> 00:03:12.659 the location made famous by Patrick Maguan series, The Prisoner. 60 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:19.439 Now, when I was watching this story with Rod, he is a huge fan of 61 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:23.639 the prisoner, but I didn't mention beforehand where it was, about 62 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.699 halfway through episode one, he says, hold on, that's number 2's 63 00:03:26.699 --> 00:03:26.939 house. 64 00:03:28.139 --> 00:03:32.039 And for that reason, he adored the story. 65 00:03:32.099 --> 00:03:32.879 We got to the end of it. 66 00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:34.860 He said, I don't know what happened with the plot. 67 00:03:34.919 --> 00:03:35.340 I don't care. 68 00:03:35.400 --> 00:03:36.060 We're in the village. 69 00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:40.139 And they dress the location as well. 70 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:41.580 It isn't just the location. 71 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:45.300 It's some crazy Welsh guy who like built some Renaissance 72 00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:45.780 village. 73 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:46.740 Yeah, yeah, you know. 74 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:47.099 Yeah. 75 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:51.120 My favourite use of the location is actually the market street 76 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.639 where there's a few chase scenes through that. 77 00:03:53.699 --> 00:03:57.719 And I just think that looks so so gorgeous. 78 00:03:57.780 --> 00:04:02.280 You know, it reminds me of Disney's Aladdin, which has it seen in 79 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:02.819 the market. 80 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:04.199 It's seen in the marketplace. 81 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:08.219 You know, it looks properly historical. 82 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.580 I mean, as a child, when I was watching this, I never realised 83 00:04:11.580 --> 00:04:14.819 that they didn't go to Italy or it was some location, like when 84 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:18.540 Sarah's walking through the orchard or when they're getting chased 85 00:04:18.540 --> 00:04:21.300 or whatever. didn't realise they'd taped the oranges to the 86 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:21.540 trees. 87 00:04:21.660 --> 00:04:26.459 No, I just thought it was a gorgeous location and wherever it was 88 00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:29.639 it really was like it was in Renaissance Italy. 89 00:04:29.699 --> 00:04:31.920 Yeah, it looks just spectacular. 90 00:04:31.980 --> 00:04:34.379 And then, and then we go indoors into the studio. 91 00:04:34.379 --> 00:04:38.279 And the sense of like Barry Newbury, and they're fantastically 92 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:41.519 detailed, like there's so much going on in each one of them. 93 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:45.060 And there's some that look like a great big marble hall with 94 00:04:45.060 --> 00:04:49.019 pillars and like Hieronymus' studio has all this stuff in it. 95 00:04:49.019 --> 00:04:52.199 And they all have these windows and, you know, they don't look 96 00:04:52.199 --> 00:04:56.100 massively convincing, but it's really rare to have windows that 97 00:04:56.100 --> 00:04:59.819 Sky is visible through in sets in Doctor Who and they look great. 98 00:04:59.879 --> 00:05:02.279 And I think that's one of the strengths, is they don't try and do 99 00:05:02.279 --> 00:05:03.660 anything outside with that sky. 100 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:06.000 It's just a blue sky and you know you're in a room and I think 101 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:09.480 it's one of the things that I'm picking up more and more through 102 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:12.720 homes of script editor is that a lot of things are based around 103 00:05:13.079 --> 00:05:15.480 We've got this set or this room. 104 00:05:15.540 --> 00:05:18.420 We don't necessarily need to see outside and we get from one to 105 00:05:18.420 --> 00:05:21.480 the other and certainly, you know, having the location work and 106 00:05:21.480 --> 00:05:23.819 that in this story, you know, enhances all that. 107 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:27.600 You don't necessarily see outside of Juliana's mansion or whatever 108 00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:28.319 it happens to be. 109 00:05:28.379 --> 00:05:31.439 It's simple and it's effective. and you're in that moment. 110 00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:33.480 And then we got the costumes. 111 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:38.639 A lot of the costumes come from a 1954 film version of Romeo and 112 00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:39.600 Juliet, apparently. 113 00:05:39.660 --> 00:05:40.560 Oh, right. 114 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:44.160 You know, everyone just looks terrific. 115 00:05:44.220 --> 00:05:47.279 Sarah looks spectacular in episode 4 for the mask. 116 00:05:47.339 --> 00:05:49.439 Oh, she's gorgeous. 117 00:05:49.500 --> 00:05:51.420 And I love her other outfit as well, you know? 118 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:52.259 Yeah, yeah. 119 00:05:52.259 --> 00:05:54.360 Liz just looks amazing. 120 00:05:54.420 --> 00:05:56.579 It's very 70s, the outfit, isn't it? 121 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.639 It's very period, but it works really well in that era too. 122 00:05:59.699 --> 00:06:00.540 It's beautiful. 123 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:04.139 You could imagine Margot Led better getting around in that in an 124 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:05.100 episode of The Good Life. 125 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:08.459 I was gonna say you can imagine, you can imagine Felicity Kendall 126 00:06:08.459 --> 00:06:10.319 but no, it's really more of a Margot outfit, I think. 127 00:06:10.379 --> 00:06:13.500 Yeah, yeah, it's really nice to see Sarah doing sort of something 128 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:16.560 different with the dancing and all that sort of stuff in episode 129 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:16.860 four. 130 00:06:16.920 --> 00:06:18.000 It's really nice, you know? 131 00:06:18.060 --> 00:06:19.500 And, you know, 0 my god. 132 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.439 Despite the fact that she's almost been sacrificed in the story 133 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.560 she actually gets to have fun in this one. 134 00:06:25.620 --> 00:06:28.860 You know, she gets to wander around the countryside and eat an 135 00:06:28.860 --> 00:06:29.279 orange. 136 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:33.600 She gets to go on a dance with a handsome, handsome prince, despite 137 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:36.300 the fact he's probably not that interested in her more on that 138 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:36.660 story later. 139 00:06:37.379 --> 00:06:40.019 Getting back to Barry Newbury, though. 140 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:44.879 Of course, we have Barry Newberry's Tartar set. 141 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.220 Oh, do you like it? 142 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:47.819 don't like it? 143 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:51.120 Oh, I usually see that face on Nathan. 144 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:55.620 Can I just say, 99% of this set I adore. 145 00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.660 There's only one thing I don't like about it. 146 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.399 That'd not be the door. 147 00:06:59.459 --> 00:07:01.319 And that's that's the black. 148 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:03.420 It is the door. 149 00:07:03.420 --> 00:07:06.600 The blackness in the middle, in the door. 150 00:07:06.660 --> 00:07:10.319 Like I love it in all the other sets where you can open on 151 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:11.459 straight out to things. 152 00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:15.000 That, to me, is a little plot device, which is going to come back 153 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:18.899 into play in 2 stories time that's just so convenient, which 154 00:07:18.899 --> 00:07:22.079 really gets my goat, but I'm going to leave that until we discuss 155 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:22.980 that particular story. 156 00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:25.079 But that's the one thing I don't like. 157 00:07:25.199 --> 00:07:26.279 I like the door. 158 00:07:26.339 --> 00:07:28.860 Yeah, yeah, especially with the transporter pad. 159 00:07:28.920 --> 00:07:29.639 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 160 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:31.800 I like leaning up to it and everything like that. 161 00:07:31.860 --> 00:07:36.420 I just wish there was some sort of... door to that blackness. 162 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:37.620 It's just the one thing. 163 00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:42.240 It solves the problem of previous tartar sets where the inner and 164 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.180 outer doors are just completely, like there's just no way of 165 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:46.379 reconciling them. 166 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:51.000 And so when when they're on Earth in 1980 in Pyramids of Mars and 167 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:54.300 you're looking in, you can kind of see the exterior of the 168 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:56.759 interior doors and stuff and that's happened before. 169 00:07:56.819 --> 00:07:59.339 It didn't quite work and they've solved it in the new series in a 170 00:07:59.339 --> 00:08:03.060 wonderful way by having the interior doors be police box doors 171 00:08:03.060 --> 00:08:04.259 which I just think is terrific. 172 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:07.439 And that comes from the Cushing movies. yeah. 173 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:09.779 So I think that that solves that problem. 174 00:08:09.839 --> 00:08:13.800 But it's a great, you know, all the railings and stuff. 175 00:08:13.860 --> 00:08:16.620 It's like a ship and yeah, yeah. 176 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:20.459 And and it's the scanner that we have for the rest of the the 177 00:08:20.459 --> 00:08:22.920 classic series, the scanner that survives. 178 00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:23.220 Yeah. 179 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:27.000 The one part of the set I don't like is actually the console. 180 00:08:27.060 --> 00:08:28.620 Why, because you don't have a time rotor? 181 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.860 Well, it's not so much that you don't have the rotor, but it's on 182 00:08:31.860 --> 00:08:34.440 casters and quite often when Tom touches it. 183 00:08:34.500 --> 00:08:34.980 It moves. 184 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.100 It's very obviously a piece of moveable scenery. 185 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:40.980 And, you know, they could have recessed it into the ground and 186 00:08:40.980 --> 00:08:42.299 still had it removable. 187 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:43.620 I understand why it's removable. 188 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:48.539 And again, it's not so much the lack of the rotor, but Hinchcliffe 189 00:08:48.539 --> 00:08:51.720 and later Graham Williams kind of made the decision that they 190 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.840 didn't really like it because it wasn't visually interesting. 191 00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:56.279 And I do have to agree with that. 192 00:08:56.340 --> 00:08:59.820 And maybe you don't, maybe you don't need the rotor for that, but 193 00:08:59.820 --> 00:09:03.299 when you open those panels, you don't just want to see push 194 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:05.879 buttons, you know, you want to see something into it. 195 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.679 It needs to be a beset itself is beautiful. 196 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:12.120 It needs to be a bit bigger and a bit more stuff on the actual 197 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:13.679 console. 198 00:09:13.740 --> 00:09:15.539 Yeah, yeah, it is rows of coloured button. 199 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.919 So I gather that the reason for it, and correct me if I'm wrong 200 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:24.120 gentlemen, is that there was some kind of demarkation issue 201 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:27.720 between, you know, which department exactly was responsible for 202 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:29.159 operating the time rotor. 203 00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:33.779 And so they created a console that didn't have the time rotor in 204 00:09:33.779 --> 00:09:35.100 order to solve the problem. 205 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:36.899 You know, I think that makes a lot of sense. 206 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:42.419 The thing was plagued with industrial action, as we'll discover, in 207 00:09:42.419 --> 00:09:45.360 the next few years, and I, look, I could be completely wrong about 208 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:49.080 that, but that's the fan myth that I sort of knew about. 209 00:09:49.139 --> 00:09:51.059 Going back to the look of all of this. 210 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:56.039 I absolutely adore the masks of the brethren. 211 00:09:56.100 --> 00:10:00.600 I love the fact that, you've got the leader, you've got the deputy 212 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:01.860 and then you've got the minions. 213 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.220 I like that sort of structured things. and the robes. 214 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:06.659 I just you know, they're really creepy. 215 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:13.019 But then at the freaking ball, like the ram's head and that other 216 00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:16.799 thing, they just freak me out every time and the way it shot like 217 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:18.840 from that angle and shooting people. 218 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.399 Yeah, I mean, when the brethren appear. 219 00:10:20.460 --> 00:10:21.539 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 220 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:26.340 I'm just like, you know, all of that, just really... 221 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.259 And again, the brethren's masks. 222 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:32.159 And I know I've talked about comedia de latte before, but they're 223 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:33.899 very much sculpted in that style. 224 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.500 You know, Barry Newbury has really done his, really done his 225 00:10:37.500 --> 00:10:38.039 research. 226 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:42.539 And of course, this was at the time when the BBC Shakespeare was 227 00:10:42.539 --> 00:10:44.220 in full swing. 228 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:47.700 This is around the time a few years after this, I think we had 229 00:10:47.700 --> 00:10:49.679 John Cleese in Taming of the Shrew. 230 00:10:49.740 --> 00:10:50.940 Yeah, yeah. 231 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:54.419 I watched lots of those BBC Shakespeares at school and I think I 232 00:10:54.419 --> 00:10:57.000 tried to get hold of some of them sort of myself. 233 00:10:57.059 --> 00:11:01.259 And certainly the sets are a bit like that season of Shakespeare. 234 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:03.899 Certainly the windows are heaps like it, and the kind of fag 235 00:11:03.899 --> 00:11:04.980 staginess of it. 236 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:08.220 I love Tom's lion mask that he wears. 237 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:13.500 Yes, and then he then he's silly in it, you know, and irritates 238 00:11:13.500 --> 00:11:13.919 Sarah. 239 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.100 I think there are other good things to say as well. 240 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:21.659 It sort of has a strong, you know, thematic thing and maybe it's a 241 00:11:21.659 --> 00:11:26.340 little bit obvious and that's the, you know, superstition versus 242 00:11:26.340 --> 00:11:28.259 science and progress. 243 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:32.940 And so you get Hieronymus and Federico to some extent, but 244 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:35.639 basically Hieronymus and the cult of Damnos representing 245 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:37.440 superstition and religion and things. 246 00:11:37.500 --> 00:11:42.120 And then you get Giuliano and maybe the doctor representing 247 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:43.259 progress. 248 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.639 And the threat that Mandrago poses is that human beings will stop 249 00:11:47.639 --> 00:11:51.600 investigating things, they'll stop learning science, you know, and 250 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:55.559 everyone invited to the ball is, you know, there's great thinkers 251 00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:56.399 and philosophers. 252 00:11:56.460 --> 00:11:58.139 It's not just great noblemen. 253 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:01.320 The waters are muddied a little bit, I think, by the fact that 254 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:05.039 Mandragara is right and Hieronymus is right, you know, and the 255 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.120 fact that Mandragara operates on astrological principles, you know 256 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:12.779 it'll become powerful when Mandragara swallows the moon and so 257 00:12:12.779 --> 00:12:13.320 on. 258 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.000 And so, I guess the idea is that because Mandragara operates on 259 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:21.179 these principles, if it takes over the world, the world will be 260 00:12:21.179 --> 00:12:25.139 you know, a place where it's all governed by magic and astrology 261 00:12:25.139 --> 00:12:25.740 and things. 262 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:29.279 Yeah, well, the thing is, I'm not sure if it's exactly that. 263 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:30.179 I think it's more. 264 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.519 Advanced science being indistinguishable from magic. 265 00:12:35.580 --> 00:12:39.960 So the reason that Mandragra becomes more powerful when the 266 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:44.039 Mandragra constellation eats the moon is not because of the 267 00:12:44.039 --> 00:12:48.179 astrological significance of that, it's because that is when the 268 00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:53.279 energy is aligned and that leads the human perception to being an 269 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:54.779 astrological magical perception. 270 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.480 Oh, sure, but I mean, Mandraga is a lie. 271 00:12:57.539 --> 00:12:58.320 Do you know what I mean? 272 00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:03.179 thematically with the idea of, you know, retarding human progress 273 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:05.700 and with Hieronymus and that kind of thing. 274 00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:07.320 And so, is that a problem? 275 00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:08.220 No, no, no. 276 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:09.179 I think that's another good thing. 277 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:12.720 There's a strong kind of formatic thing, which I love all that 278 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:14.460 stuff that Auronymous goes... 279 00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:15.360 All of his predictions. 280 00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:18.179 It's just wonder if I just sit there basking in it, even if, you 281 00:13:18.179 --> 00:13:22.080 know, it's it's not accurate or whatever, I just love the dialogue 282 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:23.039 and and... 283 00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:26.580 Well, just I have a glow about myself when he starts, you know 284 00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:27.419 spurting all that stuff. 285 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:28.919 I just I just sit there smiling. 286 00:13:28.980 --> 00:13:30.659 Well, in fact, he's brilliant. 287 00:13:30.779 --> 00:13:31.679 Oh, wonderful. 288 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:34.379 That's Norman Jones, who's been in the show twice before. 289 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:38.759 He was cre-song, of course, in Abominable Snowman. and who was 290 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:39.240 wonderful in that. 291 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:40.740 And then he was in the Southern? 292 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.960 Yeah, he's a major baker in the Silurians. 293 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:44.639 And again, 2 terrific performances. 294 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:46.019 And he's wonderful here. 295 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.799 He's got that rich Welsh voice and a fabulous beard and like a 296 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:50.820 great costume. 297 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:52.799 He's a real highlight, I think. 298 00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:55.559 I thought it was just Giuliano, her beard, but moving on. 299 00:13:55.620 --> 00:13:57.840 But I really look, I think he's fantastic. 300 00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:01.139 But I also love Count Federico. 301 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.860 I love it in Doctor Who, when you've got these villains who think 302 00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:06.960 they are the be all and end all, but there's actually something 303 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:10.740 worse than them and they don't realise it. yeah And they're going 304 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:13.139 to get their cup, what's the word I'm looking for? 305 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:14.580 Come up, correct. 306 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:17.039 And you know it, but they don't know it. 307 00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:20.279 And then it's so satisfying when it actually does happen. 308 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:20.580 You know? 309 00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:21.360 Yeah, yeah. 310 00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:23.279 Although at the end of part three. 311 00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:26.460 The cliphanger for part 3 is Frederico being killed. 312 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:27.240 Yeah. 313 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:27.720 Yeah. 314 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:31.200 And it's always interesting when Doctor Who does a cliffhanger 315 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:32.039 about a villain. 316 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:36.179 So one of the other big examples is the master being threatened by 317 00:14:36.179 --> 00:14:37.379 a Zaal in the demons. 318 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:41.039 And I think we do have a thematic resonance here with the demons 319 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.759 of this alien entity judging humanity's progress. 320 00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:47.220 And one that's associated with magic. 321 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:48.720 And one that's associated with magic. 322 00:14:48.779 --> 00:14:51.059 I actually think this is more effective than the Damons in that 323 00:14:51.059 --> 00:14:56.100 regard because the Mandragara Helix is such a different life 324 00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:56.639 form. 325 00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:00.299 And despite the fact, you know, it doesn't have much of a physical 326 00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:04.200 presence of itself, I was terrified of it as a child because of 327 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.379 that first peasant at kills. 328 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:12.840 And, you know, the flesh is bubbled and burned and turned blue and 329 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.600 yeah, that is an image that has burned itself onto my 330 00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:16.259 consciousness. 331 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.159 And the doctor's reaction, his utter horror and shame at having 332 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:22.200 been the one who's responsible for this. 333 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:23.759 It's very powerful. 334 00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:29.460 I agree with you and as a kid, like all of the contusions and that 335 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:33.179 reminded me of when you go out into the forest and you see a tree 336 00:15:33.179 --> 00:15:35.159 that's been filled and they've got all moths and all sorts of 337 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:35.820 stuff going on. 338 00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:37.440 It just reminded me of that sort of look. 339 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.179 And that stuck with me as a kid. 340 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:41.580 They really linger on it in part two. 341 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.059 There's like quite a close-up for quite a prolonged time of one of 342 00:15:45.059 --> 00:15:45.840 the dead guards. 343 00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:50.820 It is, uh, it's uh, the usual sort of Hinchcliffe, slightly too 344 00:15:50.820 --> 00:15:52.379 horrible for tea time. 345 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:55.500 But it's no surprise that it's memorable. 346 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:58.440 And I think that cliffhanger of episode 3 that you mentioned is 347 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.740 also one of just the most memorable moments, this whole season, and 348 00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:03.960 I think we'll come back to it over and over again. 349 00:16:04.019 --> 00:16:08.100 This season is like Doctor Who for me. 350 00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:11.700 This is this is the bit that I watched over and over again as a 351 00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:11.879 kid. 352 00:16:11.940 --> 00:16:16.980 It's the season that I remember just maybe the best of all, you 353 00:16:16.980 --> 00:16:19.740 know, even more so than maybe 12 or 13. 354 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:23.700 I think this is the this is the season that's etched itself into 355 00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:24.720 my memory. 356 00:16:24.779 --> 00:16:28.080 And I think from the following season onwards, and I could be 357 00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:29.580 wrong about this, I will have to look it up. 358 00:16:29.639 --> 00:16:33.779 I was aware that there were these were new seasons sort of coming 359 00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:37.139 along and I think season 16 is my 1st real proper memory of that 360 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:39.600 but I had a vague idea of about that with season 15. 361 00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:45.120 So season 14 has a huge place in my memory and for that reason I 362 00:16:45.120 --> 00:16:47.039 have a real fondness for these stories. 363 00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:49.980 Even when they're not that good sometimes. 364 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:53.879 Oh, I'm gonna echo what you're saying, because we have similar age 365 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.960 and this season for me is full of so many memorable moments. 366 00:16:58.019 --> 00:17:00.899 But after this season, then I think I'm aware that new stuff is 367 00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:02.039 coming after this point. 368 00:17:02.100 --> 00:17:04.799 Can we talk about some of the characters in this other characters 369 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:05.400 in this story? 370 00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:06.000 think so. 371 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.220 And one of the things that always struck me as a kid. 372 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:12.960 Giuliano, who, who I really adored as a character. 373 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.359 He's got the worst wig though, doesn't he? 374 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:17.400 Yeah, that might be true. 375 00:17:17.460 --> 00:17:20.279 But, you know, well, you could swish it around, you know, I 376 00:17:20.279 --> 00:17:21.240 thought that's kind of cool. 377 00:17:21.299 --> 00:17:22.799 I think it's just the fringe really. 378 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:23.700 It's the fringe. 379 00:17:23.700 --> 00:17:27.599 The fringe introduces Marco is his companion. 380 00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:30.000 Is his companion? 381 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:30.599 Yes, yes, yes. 382 00:17:30.660 --> 00:17:32.160 My loyal companion, Marco. 383 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.880 When he did that as a charter, I was, I just like thinking, that's 384 00:17:35.880 --> 00:17:36.900 a strange thing to say. 385 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:39.599 Discuss. 386 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:43.500 What is there to say? 387 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:49.619 Well, yeah, I, the whole Giuliano Marco thing is, no matter what's 388 00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:51.839 going on, it's quite wonderful. whether they're just friends or 389 00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.160 whether there is something more there. 390 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:59.220 And despite the conservative nature of television in the 1970s, you 391 00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.579 know, I think we're still Mr. Humphreys is only just a new thing 392 00:18:02.579 --> 00:18:03.900 on TV at this point. 393 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.079 Quentin Crisp is, of course, still making waves. 394 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:13.259 But, um, I think regardless of their, of their actual relationship 395 00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:16.680 in the script, I think there is a conscious effort to imply there 396 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:18.839 is something else going on. 397 00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:23.819 But even if There isn't. 398 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:28.559 At the very least, there is an incredibly loyal friendship between 399 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.240 them and camaraderie, because there's the bit where they're both 400 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:38.519 being tortured and they both refuse to give up or recant the other 401 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.299 which, you know, is either a heartwarming friendship or 402 00:18:42.299 --> 00:18:43.859 heartbreakingly romantic. 403 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:45.839 There's a bromance going on. 404 00:18:45.900 --> 00:18:48.539 In fact, there's so many romances in this. 405 00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:50.819 You've got Count Federico and Rossini. 406 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.359 You've got Heronymus and the priest. 407 00:18:54.359 --> 00:18:55.319 Shipping them. 408 00:18:55.500 --> 00:18:58.079 There's these duos all the way through. 409 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:01.319 Yeah, there's, there's your 3 pairings. 410 00:19:01.380 --> 00:19:04.380 Of course, well done production team. 411 00:19:04.440 --> 00:19:08.640 We've got no other women besides Sarah Jane and a few nondescript 412 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:13.559 people at the ball, which is very strange. you know, They could 413 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:14.339 have worked in. 414 00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:16.319 And, you know, being this period in history. 415 00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.779 They didn't have women in this period of history. 416 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:21.480 Well, that's why Giuliano and Marco have to be. 417 00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:23.279 So, like the Time Warrior. 418 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:26.160 They could have worked in a character like Meg, because Meg, in 419 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:28.920 the time war, it was fantastic, the head of the kitchen. 420 00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:30.900 Give someone a sister, for God's sake. 421 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:33.839 It's not that hard. one of the brethren, mean woman? 422 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:35.819 don't know They would have been sister on them. 423 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.819 What do you think of the hairdo of the... 424 00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:40.799 The deputy leader of the brethren. 425 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.380 He's the guy from that 1st episode of Blake 7. 426 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:44.339 Robert James, yeah. 427 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:45.599 He's less Van Glynde. 428 00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:46.980 Yeah, he's Leicesterson. 429 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:47.519 Oh, is he? 430 00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:48.240 Lesterson, listen. 431 00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:49.019 Lester listened. 432 00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:49.500 Wow. 433 00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:53.700 What do you think of the moustache swirling of the executioner? 434 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:55.200 That's Jerry Walsh. 435 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:55.920 Really? 436 00:19:55.980 --> 00:19:56.519 Yep. 437 00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:57.779 Terry Walsh watch. 438 00:19:57.839 --> 00:19:58.500 That's Terry. 439 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.319 And then he got changed into Tom's costume to jump off the gala. 440 00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:04.859 Can I just say that is one of the ropey elements in this story 441 00:20:04.859 --> 00:20:09.359 when Terry plays Tom, whether it be off the horse or doing sword 442 00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:09.839 fighting? 443 00:20:09.900 --> 00:20:11.400 so obvious. really obvious. 444 00:20:11.460 --> 00:20:15.059 I think, I mean, we've got an eagle eye for Terry after all this 445 00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:17.819 time, but the whole body language is just wrong. 446 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:18.599 Yeah, yeah. 447 00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:21.660 You know, I think I think possibly Terry spent so long getting 448 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:24.000 trying to get John Pertley's body language down. 449 00:20:24.059 --> 00:20:25.920 And he had it pretty well by the end. 450 00:20:25.980 --> 00:20:29.339 You know, he would stand like John Pertwee in the fight scenes 451 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:31.859 that maybe it's not happening. 452 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:34.859 So we're here, plus Tom's physicality is so unique. 453 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:39.240 You know, even John Colshaw, who does the amazing impersonation of 454 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:39.599 Tom. 455 00:20:39.660 --> 00:20:42.240 He doesn't try to stand like Tom Baker because no one can. 456 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:47.880 The executioner, like the actual going to chop the doctor's head 457 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:48.240 off. 458 00:20:48.299 --> 00:20:50.039 Have we seen that before in Doctor Who? 459 00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:53.579 Yeah, wasn't it going to happen in the time warrior? 460 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:54.539 Is that the only other time? 461 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.519 And then it happens later in the visitation. 462 00:20:56.579 --> 00:20:59.039 Oh, well, that's spoilers, people, we don't know what to know. 463 00:20:59.099 --> 00:20:59.819 That is the worst. 464 00:20:59.880 --> 00:21:03.420 Like, I actually think the doctor's about to be executed. 465 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:06.720 Cliffhanger is really terrible because you know he's not going to 466 00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:07.259 be. 467 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.079 It's the most boring possible way of putting him in peril. 468 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.960 And in the visitation, of course, someone comes in and says, no 469 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:13.259 wait. 470 00:21:13.259 --> 00:21:15.180 And that puts a stop. 471 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:17.940 Here at least, you know, he leaps onto a horse and does some 472 00:21:17.940 --> 00:21:19.319 fabulous staring too and stuff. 473 00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:22.859 But I think we're getting close to the objections that I have to 474 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:23.279 this story. 475 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:28.500 Overwhelmingly, it is that the action is a bit trite. 476 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:33.359 And so Sarah is being sacrificed by a bunch of cultists, the 477 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:36.180 doctors going to be executed by Federico. 478 00:21:36.240 --> 00:21:38.220 There's a lot of standing. 479 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:41.160 Moffin has that line about classic Doctor Who being a lot of 480 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.519 people standing urgently in corridors, talking urgently in 481 00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:45.839 corridors, sort of thing. 482 00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:49.980 There's a lot of just laboriously explaining what's going on to 483 00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:54.000 each other, and a lot of scenes that don't really contribute to 484 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:54.900 the plot very much. 485 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:58.680 And the whole thing just goes to hell, I think, in episode 4 where 486 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:03.539 there's a giant attack on the palace by the brethren, which is 487 00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:08.400 entirely narrated by Marco, that we see absolutely nothing of. 488 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:10.200 We don't see them going through the streets. 489 00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:12.539 We don't see them hounding out the villages. 490 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.500 There's this big giant climactic attack, you know, this whole mask 491 00:22:16.500 --> 00:22:19.619 is being besieged, and we don't get a single shot of the breath 492 00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:20.819 run until they get into the room. 493 00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:24.720 Okay, but I mean, that's true enough, but I kind of see it as what 494 00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:28.740 Bob Holmes is trying to do is to bring things back into just rooms 495 00:22:28.740 --> 00:22:30.420 and the characters that you know. 496 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.839 And so for me, it's like, yes, this is happening outside, but we 497 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:36.299 care about Sarah, we care about what's happening in the palace. 498 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:40.259 So I actually go with that and I actually see it as not a 499 00:22:40.259 --> 00:22:41.339 limitation of the story. 500 00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:44.039 I actually see it as being, well, you know, if we had to go and 501 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:45.900 film that and do that, it could really crap. 502 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:47.759 So let's not even go there. 503 00:22:47.819 --> 00:22:48.900 Let's just keep it back. 504 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:50.880 And for me, so I don't have a problem with that. 505 00:22:50.940 --> 00:22:53.400 I can see I take your point of view, but I don't have a problem 506 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:53.759 with it. 507 00:22:53.819 --> 00:22:55.920 And also, it's the Shakespearean tradition. 508 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:01.140 Because if you look at Macbeth, the 1st scene of Macbeth is a 509 00:23:01.140 --> 00:23:04.740 soldier telling King Duncan how wonderful Macbeth was in battle 510 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:08.519 and how he sliced up 200 of the enemy soldiers all by himself, you 511 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:09.119 never see it. 512 00:23:09.180 --> 00:23:12.240 And then the next scene after that is the witches discussing the 513 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.880 battle and, you know, it's all these people talking about 514 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:15.359 battles. 515 00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:18.539 So, yeah, I mean, I'd never had a problem with that again, because 516 00:23:18.539 --> 00:23:22.680 as Todd says, it's the intimacy of these of these characters, not 517 00:23:22.680 --> 00:23:25.859 just the doctor and Sarah, but we've come to quite know Giuliano 518 00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:27.359 and Marco by this point as well. 519 00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:32.099 And the scene, I think, really helps with that very early on, is 520 00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:37.019 that scene where Giuliano is talking with Sarah about how he 521 00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:40.859 believes there are other worlds around the lights in the sky. 522 00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:46.680 And last season, we were talking about how Sarah loses a bit of 523 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.859 her humanity as she sort of becomes a bit aloof and a bit above 524 00:23:49.859 --> 00:23:50.220 things. 525 00:23:50.279 --> 00:23:53.640 This is a scene where Sarah regains a lot of that humanity because 526 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:57.779 of course, she doesn't want to say to Marco, oh, yes, you're 527 00:23:57.779 --> 00:24:00.420 absolutely right, and I'm from the stars, because that's my, you 528 00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:03.480 know, that might be a bit overwhelming, but she just listens and 529 00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:04.500 says, oh, go on. 530 00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:07.200 Wow, you know, I think you might be right. 531 00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:12.779 I think, you know, from, it could be performed as patronising, but 532 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:15.420 I don't think that Liz Slaton performs it as patronising. 533 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:17.700 She performs it as, I know you're absolutely right. 534 00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:20.819 But this is about your idea. 535 00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:22.380 This isn't about me validating you. 536 00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.759 You know, she, she, she's letting him take the stage in this 537 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:28.440 conversation despite the fact she knows better. 538 00:24:28.500 --> 00:24:31.920 I know I haven't been around for the last discussions that you've 539 00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.000 had in the last few episodes. 540 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:37.559 But for me, even when I watched this as a kid, in terms of 541 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:40.440 Elizabeth Stone's performance, I always had this feeling that 542 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.019 there was a difference in her performance, like there was just a 543 00:24:43.019 --> 00:24:44.640 feeling, I just, there's something different here. 544 00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:47.579 And I think maybe because she knows that she's leaving and I think 545 00:24:47.579 --> 00:24:51.420 when you leave a job, you do change, like you do in the months 546 00:24:51.420 --> 00:24:53.819 leading up to it if you've got a deadline. 547 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:55.440 And it's still a great performance. 548 00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:57.660 Don't get me wrong, but there's just this feeling that there's a 549 00:24:57.660 --> 00:25:00.660 difference in Sarah and I can't really quite put my finger on it. 550 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:05.819 I guess the 1st scene where she's walking in the corridor with the 551 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:09.180 doctor in the TARDIS and they have the discussion about being from 552 00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:10.559 earth or human or whatever it is. 553 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:14.700 And it's struck me that in the new series, Jackie has this 554 00:25:14.700 --> 00:25:18.720 conversation with Rhodes about the fact that over time you'll lose 555 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:21.000 yourself and not, you'll just be this nondescript woman in the 556 00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:21.299 crowd. 557 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:25.799 You haven't heard our episode Planet of Evil podcast episode yet. 558 00:25:25.859 --> 00:25:27.240 Because I bring exactly that up. 559 00:25:27.299 --> 00:25:28.079 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 560 00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.279 But I kind of feel that now having watched this through and having 561 00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:34.559 you know, I had no connection with the brand of movies because I 562 00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.059 never saw it as a kid. 563 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.079 But I now look back and I see that they keep bringing Sarah back 564 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:42.839 to Earth and she's a journalist and, you know, that still happens 565 00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:47.220 in Zygons and Kermins and Mars and Android Invasion. 566 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:50.039 But after that time, it just goes away. 567 00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:53.880 And it becomes Sarah Jane Smith, Wonder Woman, where she's put 568 00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:57.000 through all these trials of things and survives, you know, falling 569 00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:00.240 downstairs, blindness, mincing machines. 570 00:26:00.299 --> 00:26:03.539 She's going to survive a frigging cliff explosion. like, you know 571 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.440 like she is Wonder Woman, but she's suddenly not, she's not the 572 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:08.160 journalist anymore. 573 00:26:08.220 --> 00:26:09.480 She could be anywhere. 574 00:26:09.539 --> 00:26:13.380 And there is this difference that I am now perceiving, you know 575 00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:16.019 through these last few episodes and here as well. 576 00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:19.440 I think it is a function of the problem that the production team 577 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:24.599 has with women, honestly, where Sarah gets turned from a person 578 00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:26.279 into a plot device. 579 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:30.480 And so she gets into peril and she survives it. 580 00:26:30.539 --> 00:26:34.740 Here, there's that, you know, she gets hypnotised and it's, she 581 00:26:34.740 --> 00:26:38.039 does 2 stories this season, in each of them, she gets hypnotised. 582 00:26:38.099 --> 00:26:40.440 So she's hypnotised to kill the doctor here. 583 00:26:40.500 --> 00:26:43.440 I just think that's really not very interesting. 584 00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:49.440 And again, cliched and try it, you know, sacrificed the virgin 585 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.019 sacrifice, the being hypnotised, all of these things that happened 586 00:26:52.019 --> 00:26:52.859 to her. 587 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.220 And just a lot of the action is really not very novel or 588 00:26:56.220 --> 00:26:56.880 interesting. 589 00:26:56.940 --> 00:27:00.839 And Sarah really suffers from it because by now she isn't any 590 00:27:00.839 --> 00:27:02.279 recognisable human being. 591 00:27:02.339 --> 00:27:05.460 You know, she goes through all these things with no ill effects. 592 00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.700 You know, she might bitch about them a little bit afterwards, but 593 00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:12.539 really, she's stopped being anyone that you can really properly 594 00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:13.619 recognise as a person. 595 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:17.880 I guess one thing I like about hypnotism is the fact that, yeah 596 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:21.359 she actually asked the question that's never been asked. 597 00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:24.299 Why can she understand other languages? 598 00:27:24.359 --> 00:27:26.519 And I like the fact that Robert Holmes will actually address this 599 00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.700 and the TARDIS inside, the bigger on inside out with an 600 00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:31.680 explanation. this season. 601 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:34.500 So I actually like the purpose of the hypnotism here to actually 602 00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:36.359 put that question for this. 603 00:27:36.420 --> 00:27:36.839 Oh, I agree. 604 00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:39.180 Because I think it's like an elephant in the room that's never 605 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:39.599 asked. 606 00:27:39.660 --> 00:27:43.140 Now, he gives you answers that are really answers that are very 607 00:27:43.140 --> 00:27:46.440 vague and no answers, but I kind of like that in my Doctor Who 608 00:27:46.440 --> 00:27:48.420 because I like it being left open rather than this is the 609 00:27:48.420 --> 00:27:50.940 definitive fact and we're like Star Trek and this is the way it is 610 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:53.640 and it's just, you know, scientific gobbledy-gook. 611 00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:56.880 I like the fact that it's vague enough that you can make it 612 00:27:56.880 --> 00:27:58.799 whatever you want it to and accept it and move on. 613 00:27:58.859 --> 00:28:02.640 It leads to that the fabulous fit in fires, Pompeii, where Donna 614 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.140 has such fun speaking Latin. 615 00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:09.119 Rod and I are currently watching series 4 of Doctor Who. 616 00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:11.880 And it's interesting what Stephen Moffat says about classic Doctor 617 00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.519 Who being people standing around talking in corridors because what 618 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.819 is silence in the library, but people standing around and talking 619 00:28:17.819 --> 00:28:18.599 in corridors. 620 00:28:18.660 --> 00:28:20.339 There's loads of it. and it's done really well. 621 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:22.319 But we've also watched Pfizer Pompeii. 622 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:25.619 Something I didn't pick up on the 1st time was whenever the doctor 623 00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.619 or Donna accidentally used some Latin in Peter Capaldi's 624 00:28:28.619 --> 00:28:29.099 presence. 625 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:30.779 He replies with Welshisms. 626 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:32.039 Hey, there's lovely. 627 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.180 He says at one point. 628 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:37.140 You know, it's it's really good. 629 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:39.359 That's just another example of how great Capaldi is. 630 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:43.680 Look, I take your point, Nathan, about the cliches in this, but 631 00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:49.440 much like Almost every story last season, Hinchcliffe and Holmes 632 00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.599 are borrowing from other stories. 633 00:28:51.660 --> 00:28:55.440 So the cliches here are stuff they've nicked from Hammer horror 634 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:58.380 films with the Virgin Sacrifice and the hypnotism and what have 635 00:28:58.380 --> 00:28:58.619 you. 636 00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:02.039 I think what does make the story so special and... 637 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:05.819 I was about to say it's Lewis Mark's best script for the series 638 00:29:05.819 --> 00:29:08.400 but Day of the Daleks is pretty bloody good. 639 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.119 Perhaps it's his best original script then. 640 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:15.900 Because I do think his characterisation is wonderful. 641 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:19.380 I think even though we've got cliched plot events, they're 642 00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:22.140 presented with really great style and panache. 643 00:29:22.200 --> 00:29:23.640 Cliche pot event. 644 00:29:23.700 --> 00:29:25.500 Let's leave the Tartar store open. 645 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:30.599 So space alien energy thing can come to worth. 646 00:29:30.660 --> 00:29:33.900 Like, that's my pet hate in the series, but the doors are left 647 00:29:33.900 --> 00:29:34.319 open. 648 00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:35.460 It's like, ah. 649 00:29:35.519 --> 00:29:37.200 Didn't you? 650 00:29:37.259 --> 00:29:40.200 I mean, didn't you think it seemed weirdly old-fashioned, though 651 00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:41.940 just the way the way it was plotted? 652 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:42.779 Yeah, but I liked that. 653 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:44.460 It felt like a Hartnell story. 654 00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.180 And it felt like a good Hartnell historical. 655 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.799 You know, you, I could imagine... 656 00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:51.180 They didn't go to the pub or prison. 657 00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:53.039 Oh, they did go to prison. 658 00:29:53.099 --> 00:29:54.839 But no, I could easily imagine. 659 00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:57.000 I could easily imagine Billy and Barbara in this. 660 00:29:57.059 --> 00:29:59.460 That would have fixed it for me, actually. 661 00:29:59.579 --> 00:30:04.259 Look, I just adore this and it's one of my favourite stories of 662 00:30:04.259 --> 00:30:04.859 all time. 663 00:30:18.539 --> 00:30:22.619 Well, dear listener, that is all the time we have for the Mask of 664 00:30:22.619 --> 00:30:26.160 Man Dragra, and as everyone knows, after a big party, it's time 665 00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:27.900 for a bit of a come down. 666 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:28.619 So next week. 667 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:31.920 Sorry, I'm just laughing, 'cause I'll know what's next win. 668 00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:32.339 Yeah. 669 00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:33.480 The hand of fear. 670 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.440 Nathan, the randomiser, put you in charge of that again. 671 00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:41.279 Until then, please check us out online, dear listeners, at 672 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.640 flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and 673 00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:47.460 iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter. 674 00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.640 And don't forget to check out bondfinger at bondfinger.com. 675 00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:54.359 We currently have 2 commentaries available, one for Dr. No, and 14 676 00:30:54.359 --> 00:30:55.380 from Russia with love. 677 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:57.539 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 678 00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.440 Good night. 679 00:30:58.500 --> 00:30:59.339 See you soon. 680 00:31:02.460 --> 00:31:05.640 That was Flake Your Entirety with Todd Beelby, Nathan Botany and 681 00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:06.480 Brendan Jones. 682 00:31:06.539 --> 00:31:11.339 This episode, a fabulous beard was reported on the 2nd of August. 683 00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.819 The next episode within released on September 20th. 684 00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:17.880 We ain't going in there either, Giovanni. 685 00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:20.220 There's nothing but a growling beach ball at the end of that 686 00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:20.519 tunnel. 687 00:31:26.579 --> 00:31:28.619 I don't know what happened in the plot. 688 00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:29.940 I don't care, we're in the village. 689 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:31.079 Sorry. 690 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.720 That was me trying to turn airplane mode off.