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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:17:27

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast.

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You're sick of being cold and wet and hypnotised, left, right, and centre, savage by bug eyed monsters, never knowing if I'm coming or going or being.

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And boy, are we sick of that Sonic screwdriver.

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I am Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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Are you all right, darling?

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And I'm Todd.

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And I'm worried about you, though.

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Are you okay?

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I'm fine.

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I just want my hair washed and to feel human again.

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And it's not for a lack of shampoo. for a lack of hair.

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We are onto one of the most memorable stories of the run of Doctor Who.

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It is the most recent story shown on, in his most recent classic Doctor Who story shown on BBC 4, in fact.

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It is the hand of fear.

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Well, this one's mine, and it's terrible, isn't it?

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It really, really is totally bad.

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Can I just say, the script falls through from Dougie Campfield to write out Sarah Jane Smith?

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So, oh, I know, we're going to go to our dynamic duo of Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

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They're going to be great to write out Sarah Jane.

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So Dougie Campfood was going to write the script.

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Is that the story?

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writing a script that involved Sarah dying in the end.

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She's going to be killed off, some sort of...

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That was a terrible idea, though.

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Yeah, it was called, it was called the Red Fort, and it was going to be based around the French Foreign Legion.

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It was initially thought to be the finale of the last season.

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They were thinking about writing Sarah out in that story.

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And then, you know, they were thinking about mulching her in Seeds of Doom.

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Were they really?

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Yeah.

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That, that, that's part of the reason the mulchers in the script.

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They were going to mulch.

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They were going to mulch Sarah Jane.

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Why do people like him?

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Well, that's the thing.

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I think once they realised once it's like, hey, let's have a multure in there.

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Hey, let's put the compa- Oh maybe not.

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No, they could have done the alternative, which was actually to turn her into the crinoid and force the doctor then to blow her up with it.

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With the airstrike.

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Oh, really?

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I mean, they're not going to kill Sorenson in Planet of Evil. mulching Sarah might be a good idea.

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That really frigging annoys me.

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I don't get to say it.

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It annoyed us as well.

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Don't worry.

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We mentioned it.

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Instead, with the red fort.

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I can't remember if there was even going to be an alien influence.

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It may have just been a historical, but Sarah was going to die at the end.

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The French Foreign Legion were going to sort of give her a full military funeral with honours for fighting alongside the Legion and the doctor was going to leave alone because, you know, this is a fun family program.

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Thanks, Dougie.

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But this script, this script had been around for a while as well.

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Yeah, yeah.

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And also had, I think, the brigadier from the future or something sacrificing himself.

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It was it was also going to be like 6 parts.

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Castria was called Omega 3 or Omega 3, and Bob Holmes had to point out to these writers that there's a character called Omega.

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Omega?

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Oh, my God, whatever, who they actually wrote it.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Not only that, when Dave Martin comes back much later to write 4 canine kids books, he's got a villain in that who's this tall guy in a mask and a cloak called Omegon.

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Omegon, brilliant.

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That's his brother, actually.

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A little known figure in Time Lord history.

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So back in the 70s.

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You know, Bob Baker and Dave Martin wrote some decent things.

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I, you know, Clause of Axos is all right, I suppose.

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They were kind of accused of having too many ideas and not developing any of them, remember that?

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But here, that got no ideas at all.

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There's really, really nothing going for this.

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So it's set on Earth, at least in theory, but this version of Earth consists of a quarry, the most underpopulated hospital you've ever seen, and a nuclear power plant.

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At no point are we anywhere in anything recognisable as Earth, as far as the people at home are concerned.

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You know, the quarry has the most lamentably poor security procedures you've ever seen.

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Sarah gets dug out, you know, clutching the hand.

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She's carried off by 2 of the most leisurely kind of slow moving paramedics in television history.

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She gets taken to a deserted hospital that consists of, you know, like a corridor, um, and really that's about it. 3 flats, you know, reconstructed for like 2 different sets, one with, is it Rex?

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Yeah, Rex Robinson's back.

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And he's lovely.

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He's Gebek.

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He is lovely.

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Tyler.

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But I agree with you completely, Nathan.

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It's like this cliche little set piece to get from here to here to here to get to the nuclear power station.

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Nothing is real.

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It ties into what I was saying in the last podcast that Sarah Jane has become not a real character.

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We're not really in a real situation.

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It's just for moments and nothing much more than that.

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And Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

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My god.

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I have this theory, and the theory is they write 2 good episodes of Doctor Who, a season, you've just got to find them among the 4 or 8, you know?

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Thank God in the next season.

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That's all I can say.

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But they're just...

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Philip Sandafar has this theory that people's television careers see them gradually get worse at writing for television. as television evolves.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So someone who's quite a good writer in the early 70s is not quite so good a writer, sort of later on.

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And certainly these later Doctor Who's that they do are pretty terrible.

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But this, I think, oh, well, there's underworld next year.

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But this, I mean, this is really, really bad.

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There's no characters to speak of.

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You know, there's Dr. Carter, who is very charmingly played by Rex Robinson.

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You know, he's really very likeable, but he has nothing to do.

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And all he's there for is to plummet to his death.

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I mean, what a horrible, horrible thing.

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Well, he gets some nice lines with the doctor doing the exposition about the nature of the hand.

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But yeah, but then he grabs a big rubber spanner and sort of lunges at the doctor and falls off a catwalk.

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And that's really terrible and awful, you know, why does that happen?

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And then you get Professor Watson, you know, he's basically our only other human character, and he's just a sort of base commander, but it's also undeveloped that really nothing very much can be, you know, said about him either.

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So it's really thin.

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There's hardly any guest cast at all.

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I mean, you've got his assistant woman up in the control box, which I think is the director's wife, and they had to develop that character, which was originally a man, and they made it into a woman.

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Thank goodness there's a woman.

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It's Ms. Jackson.

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She's fabulous.

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Yes, yeah.

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And then there's that unfortunate dude whose name I can't think of at the moment.

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Driscoll?

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Yeah, who goes into the nuclear reactor.

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He's got great pants.

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Okay, I'm just gonna jump in here and say, I really like this one.

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We haven't finished.

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I'm not finished.

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Okay, I'm just, I'm just foreshadowing, so carry on.

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I need to go back to episode one.

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Yeah, right?

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Because I hate the Andy-Pandy outfit.

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It is one of my least favourite outfits on Sarah Jane after a season where I think she's looked dynamic.

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I just want to just go, ah!

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But Rex Robinson actually has some dialogue in there about how crummy it is.

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Remember, he's on the phone and she's escaping.

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She's wearing a pink overalls thing.

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Yes, yes, like Andy Pandy.

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Like someone has clearly snuck that into the script after seeing the costume that she's been given.

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Well, I think she's had some really wonderful outfits.

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I love terror of zigons, that the green thing.

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The green thing is great.

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I really like the little blue outfit in evil.

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Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. with the scallop sleeves.

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Yeah, dress in Pyramids of Mars.

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I adore the pink thing in Android invasion and she looks fantastic in the last story and in Seeds of Doom.

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I'm not a big fan of Brain of Morbius, but I think, you know, what the hey.

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I thought I liked that.

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I think you did like that one, but, you know, I just think this is one of her worst ones.

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And I kind of looked at it and I kind of thought, what is that?

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And she puts some of that white thing later on in the story.

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And even as a kid, I went, that's a Joe Grant thing.

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It is.

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It's actually Katie's coat from the Green Day.

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It is Joe Groundsco.

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It is the original.

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But can I go back to the beginning and it's like, you know, poor Sarah Jane Smith.

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Since the Android Invasion, she's been giving us lists of everything that she's been put through, like in the Android Invasion, like she just, like, we're either going to burn up in the atmosphere, suffocate, be crushed to death, in the brain of Morbius.

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I've fallen out a flight of stairs, menaced by a huge claw and blinded.

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Then in the seeds of doom, I think it's going to be blown up, shot, minced machine, managed by the crinoid, you know?

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And now here, we walk out into the quarry and the whole wall, the whole side of it just blows up and she's buried alive.

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Even the doctor's not buried alive.

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She's put through another trauma and later on in the story, she gets the gas at her.

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She almost falls down some huge crevice, you know, she's going to walk into a nuclear reactor.

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You know, this poor woman.

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Poor, poor woman.

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And this is what we've been saying.

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The fact that she doesn't really respond to any of these things beyond sort of vaguely bitching about them makes her less right. real as a person.

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But, I mean, this is in an environment where nothing is really real, I think.

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But I'll say this.

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I love Elizabeth Staten, and I just think she does a wonderful job despite these unreal situations to try and give this character believability.

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Let's move beyond Sarah in the setting and let's actually talk about the aliens.

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So we actually open on the planet Castria, which is very cheaply realised.

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It's a couple of people in anorax growling and shouting doing Stephen Thorne impersonations.

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Yeah, it's so cheap that one of them is Roy Skelton.

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Oh really?

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They only have one set of gloves for the costumes.

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The other one actually has to have mittens, so you don't take pants.

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And it's really just the most involved way of executing someone.

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I don't know.

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Can you not shoot a castro in the head or something?

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Or just electrocute them?

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And it's 5 minutes.

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Like I actually sit there going, 0 my goodness, this is still going on.

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Like in a new series, this would be a pre-credits.

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Yeah, take 20 seconds.

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Yeah, yeah.

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So they have to shoot him into space and then explode him by remote control, even though they've got no power and no resources and the whole planet's falling to pieces.

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Yeah, and you know what?

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Planets falling to pieces.

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We find out later they know their planet's dying anyway.

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Why did they have to shoot him off into space?

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Why not just blow him up on the surface?

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So this is another thing too.

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It is one of the things that Holmes does during his tenure script editor, is introduced just any number of villains who are criminals from the past.

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And so last year we had Morbius, who was not sufficiently executed enough by the time laws.

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Now we have Eldrad, who's not sufficiently executed enough by the Castrians.

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We've had Soutec, of course, who was not... who wasn't executed.

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Cuted enough by sirens.

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And we are actually going to have coming up in the end of the series just for change, a criminal from the distant future instead of the distant past.

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So this is something that happens over and over again.

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And here it's so much like Morbius that it is just completely lacking in sort of inventiveness or imagination, I think.

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Now, Richard hasn't commandeered Todd's time bubble, but he has sent me a text.

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He wants me to mention, which is, of course, we have another transgender character in Doctor Who in the form of Eldrad.

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You know, that's like I like Judith Paris as the monster.

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And I don't like Stephen Thorne because his costume is terrible and it's Stephen Thorne and he just shouts and he's completely one node.

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And they even address it in the dialogue of, like her, couldn't stand him.

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Yeah, yeah, but did you think that that was odd at the time as a child?

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You know what I mean?

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I would have had no experience at all with trans people back then.

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It didn't strike me as strange.

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As a child.

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It didn't strike me as that, you know, you did have David Bowie and Ziggy Stardust and that sort of androgynous sort of look, and that's where I think as a child, I kind of thought that's where Judith Paris took it.

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They treat her voice, don't they, to lower her?

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Yes, yes.

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But to sort of say that it's a trans thing.

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Like, that's very, like, taking what is very relevant now. and putting that back onto what was then.

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They would never have gone into that thinking that this is going to be a trans person or anything like that, you know?

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I mean.

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No, but it's much like, it's much like the relationship between um, between Giuliano and Marco.

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The trans community did exist in the 70s, but was far less visible than it is now, just like the gay community lesbian community, whichever rainbow community you want to mention.

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But I think a very telling thing here, of course, is that Eldrad is quite surprised by his new form when he is the Judith Paris, Eldrad.

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So there is an element of being trans in there because one of a definition of trans is when your body gender does not conform with your internal gender and 21 out there who is trans and if I'm getting the terminology wrong, I do apologise.

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But yeah, I think for Doctor Who to do that, especially when today we still have all these violent or vehement debates about whether we could have a female doctor.

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You know, for me as a kid, Eldrad changing gender wasn't a weird thing because the doctor had changed face.

220
00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:21.120
So why can't you change from male to female?

221
00:14:21.179 --> 00:14:23.519
I didn't necessarily find it a weird thing?

222
00:14:23.580 --> 00:14:25.080
It was just a monster thing.

223
00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:32.100
And I thought, oh, that's original, that's a twist, that's different, you know, that's the way I saw things, you know?

224
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:34.080
What do you think is the purpose behind it?

225
00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:35.039
It is a bit strange.

226
00:14:35.100 --> 00:14:37.980
I mean, she's supposed to like have modelled herself on Sarah.

227
00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:38.940
Yeah.

228
00:14:38.940 --> 00:14:41.700
I mean, it at least gives us a war.

229
00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:44.759
Yeah, I think I think it's the whole woman thing and I think it is a twist on the thing.

230
00:14:44.820 --> 00:14:46.320
Oh, everybody's going to expect that it's a man.

231
00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:47.759
Because it always is.

232
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:50.039
And this time that's the twist.

233
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:51.539
And I think that's why they did it.

234
00:14:51.600 --> 00:15:09.179
But I do take it now that if somebody who is trans, who might be very young, like, you know, I'm talking in their teenage years, to watch a show like this now to see this sort of thing, maybe that's something that, you know, they would identify with or, you know, go, oh, wow, you know, look at this.

235
00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.320
Obviously at the time, something never crossed my mind.

236
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:15.840
Oh yeah, and you know what?

237
00:15:15.899 --> 00:15:23.820
I am reasonably sure that Philip Hinchcliffe and Robert Holmes had no idea of that possible, possible connection with it.

238
00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:41.159
But yeah, I think it's a very good decision for the show because we've had one trans or gender queer character before in the form of Alpha Centauri, who is identified as having no gender, but has the voice of the feminine gender.

239
00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:44.700
Oh, he gets he gets masculine pronouns.

240
00:15:44.820 --> 00:15:45.840
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

241
00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:46.080
Yeah.

242
00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:49.019
So there's a sort of trans element or gender queer element there.

243
00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:56.220
Not only does Judith Paris give a great performance, but there are elements of both gender in her performance as well.

244
00:15:56.279 --> 00:16:01.620
Tom absolutely adored her, and you can see that he cannot keep his hands off her.

245
00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.379
He's constantly carting her around.

246
00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:05.820
He's constantly touching her.

247
00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:09.779
I've never seen a picture of her outside of the makeup.

248
00:16:09.899 --> 00:16:33.120
That's right I'd really love to know actually what she looks like, but I think the performance is absolutely stunning and it's what saves the middle part of this story, in my opinion, her performance. and the connection that she begins to have with the doctor and with Sarah. and how manipulative the character is, and it has to adapt to its situation to get what it wants.

249
00:16:34.019 --> 00:16:37.440
And that's one of the aspects of this story that I really, really like.

250
00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:57.659
There's one beautiful shot of her, where she's in the TARDIS, and they've just landed on Castria, and the doctors opened up the scanner, and she's standing in front of the scanner, but you can't see, like she's just in front of the scanner, all that you can see, is her standing in front of that sort of miniature blasted landscape.

251
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.120
And I think it's, you know, really well framed.

252
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:06.059
In fact, one of the things this show does have going for it is, of course, it's Lenny Maine, who's directing.

253
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:15.480
And there's a lot of film work and particularly the film stuff when Sarah and Driscoll are both possessed wandering around the nuclear reactor.

254
00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:31.440
And it's like there's some kind of fisheye lens or something and it's shot in really uncomfortable close-ups and it really makes a character who, you know, we're normally reassured by in Sarah, really quite sort of alien and disturbing looking in those scenes.

255
00:17:31.500 --> 00:17:33.539
So there are moments of good direction, I think.

256
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.160
No, I agree with you.

257
00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:41.819
I think the direction saves a lot of this. at times I don't know whether it saves it.

258
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:47.579
Well, it holds it together when it should be just falling to pieces, you know?

259
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.799
I can forgive this story a lot.

260
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:56.099
Probably by Judith Paris' performance, knowing, in hindsight, it's Elizabeth Sadden's final performance.

261
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:58.380
Except it's not, though, is it?

262
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:00.240
We get her for years and years to come.

263
00:18:00.299 --> 00:18:02.640
But at the time. at the same time.

264
00:18:02.700 --> 00:18:05.400
Those last minutes in the show.

265
00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:11.099
Well, before we come to that, though, can we talk about how terrible Castria is?

266
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:13.079
Well, can I just say how terrible Castro is?

267
00:18:13.140 --> 00:18:14.640
What a boring place it is.

268
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:15.960
The set's really terrible.

269
00:18:16.019 --> 00:18:19.740
It is, again, no, because Leisure Grotto with a bottomless pit.

270
00:18:19.799 --> 00:18:23.759
We defeat Eldrad by tripping him with the doctor's scarf so that he falls into a pit.

271
00:18:23.819 --> 00:18:25.200
It really is just terrible.

272
00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:29.160
And Stephen Thorne's trip is terrible itself because he doesn't trip.

273
00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:32.039
He steps over it and then they just cut to him falling down.

274
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:35.339
And then they throw the doctor throws the ring down after him.

275
00:18:35.460 --> 00:18:38.099
I mean, that makes a hell of a lot of sense guys.

276
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:41.640
So, I mean, all of that's kind of terrible.

277
00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:51.900
But I want to step back for a minute and hear Brendan's spirited and full-throated defence of this story.

278
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:53.220
Really?

279
00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:53.700
Yeah.

280
00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:55.740
That's another thing.

281
00:18:55.799 --> 00:19:00.539
The hand in the box, is that modelled after Stephen Thorne or somebody else?

282
00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:02.279
Oh, I don't know.

283
00:19:02.339 --> 00:19:05.460
I suspect it's modelled after one of the visual effects crew.

284
00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:07.740
It doesn't look like Stephen Thorne's hand.

285
00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:09.359
It doesn't look like Judith Paris's hand.

286
00:19:09.539 --> 00:19:12.420
Thorne has 6 fingers on each hand.

287
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:12.960
Did you know that?

288
00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:14.039
Yeah, yeah, I did.

289
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:17.640
Yeah, he got one of them from Reg Whitehead.

290
00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:23.819
But I'm just saying if Eldred's normal form is a male, shouty like Stephen Thorne, should it look like him?

291
00:19:23.940 --> 00:19:27.660
Shouldn't a hand look like him, not something completely different?

292
00:19:27.779 --> 00:19:29.220
It's sort of a man's hand.

293
00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:29.940
Do you know what I mean?

294
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.759
And by then we haven't seen Stephen Thorne, so...

295
00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:33.660
I think one of those...

296
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:38.640
The thing, the problems with his is the fact that Stephen Thorne never saw Judith Paris in studio.

297
00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:40.920
They never saw each other in the studio.

298
00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:41.519
Yeah, of course.

299
00:19:41.579 --> 00:19:45.480
It was only at the rap party dinner that they actually saw each other.

300
00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:47.160
So you were me, darling.

301
00:19:47.220 --> 00:19:49.019
And I kind of think that's...

302
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:51.119
I think that you were me.

303
00:19:51.180 --> 00:19:52.740
I think that's a mistake.

304
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:56.339
Yeah, they should have been discussed on to have a look to see what she was doing.

305
00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:58.019
Because I actually do quite like...

306
00:19:58.019 --> 00:19:59.940
He could have picked up some acting tips from that.

307
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:05.400
But I do quite like the fact that when he comes out of the regeneration thing he talks about, he goes, doctor.

308
00:20:05.460 --> 00:20:06.900
Sarah.

309
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:16.319
I always like it when the baddies, you know, have a connection with, you know, the companion, you're like, you know, that's kind of nice, but go ahead, Brendan, defend away.

310
00:20:16.380 --> 00:20:17.759
You know, I want to hear it.

311
00:20:18.059 --> 00:20:21.240
Okay, as I said, I quite like the story.

312
00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:22.440
So we arrive on earth.

313
00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:25.019
We are now in timeline number two.

314
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:32.279
Todd, you haven't heard our Pyramids of Miles podcast yet, but suffice it to say I've solved the unit dating problem, and Sarah is now slightly in the wrong timeline.

315
00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:33.059
Moving on.

316
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.640
So we have the whole quarry accident.

317
00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:37.559
Quarry falls on Sarah, et cetera, et cetera.

318
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:39.000
I like the scene in the hospital.

319
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:41.039
Yes, you know, it's very sparsely populated.

320
00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:46.799
But I love the doctor's scene with the doctor in the hospital and the whole discussion about, oh, Gallifroy.

321
00:20:46.859 --> 00:20:47.460
I haven't heard of it.

322
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:48.420
Maybe it's in Ireland.

323
00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:50.579
I think that's the 1st time we get the island gag.

324
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:52.680
He's a terrible actor, that guy.

325
00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:57.420
No, I think he's very good because to him there's nothing extraordinary about what is happening.

326
00:20:57.539 --> 00:20:58.380
No, no, no, no.

327
00:20:58.440 --> 00:20:59.640
The dialogue is fine.

328
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:00.839
The actor is not good.

329
00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:02.339
That's all continue.

330
00:21:03.660 --> 00:21:05.819
Thank you, Mr. Beal.

331
00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:11.099
Moving on, you know, we then get Rex Robinson, who is, of course, fabulous.

332
00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:18.839
And yeah, I love the idea that the doctor has just grabbed, you know, your everyday pathologist in a hospital and introduced him to the idea of silicon life.

333
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.579
Yeah, I'm not saying this is a brilliant story by any means. saying I like it.

334
00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:34.859
We go to the Nunton power complex, and I think they missed a trick there by not having the Newton power complex from the claws of Axos kind of drawing at full circle there.

335
00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:38.460
I really like Glenn Houston's performance as the director there.

336
00:21:38.579 --> 00:21:40.619
I like his interplay with Miss Jackson.

337
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:45.779
I even like the cliche thing of calling home and kiss the children for me.

338
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:46.920
Kiss the children for me.

339
00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:48.240
It is really cliche.

340
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:51.480
It is really cliche, but he performs it so well.

341
00:21:51.539 --> 00:22:03.000
It's not histrionic, and I know he's a bit of an idiot, you know, shooting at Eldred and not listening to the doctor and blah, blah, blah, but he's also a genuinely heroic character in that he's facing down his death.

342
00:22:03.059 --> 00:22:04.859
He demands that everyone leaves.

343
00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:12.599
You know, someone has to stay in case things can go on and Miss Jackson tries to say he's like, no, you have to go as well.

344
00:22:12.660 --> 00:22:15.119
And then he has the moment calling his wife.

345
00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:18.660
It's a very heroic moment because it's not about comforting himself.

346
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:24.480
It's about comforting the people around him and thankfully he survives at the end.

347
00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:27.000
You know, if he had been killed by Eldrad.

348
00:22:27.059 --> 00:22:29.819
I think that would have been even worse than Sorenson surviving.

349
00:22:29.880 --> 00:22:31.680
I don't disagree with you.

350
00:22:31.740 --> 00:22:32.880
I actually agree with you on this.

351
00:22:32.940 --> 00:22:38.220
I think that I actually like his performance. and I like all those things that you've commented on.

352
00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.839
We've got Judith Paris, of course, and her wonderful interplay.

353
00:22:42.900 --> 00:22:48.059
Yeah, she's got the great interplay with Tom, but you've come to expect Tom to have a really good interplay with the villains.

354
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:51.599
Like Tom always seems to step up his game a bit in the villain scenes.

355
00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:57.839
What we get here that we don't really see elsewhere is Sarah getting really strong interplay with the villain.

356
00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:06.299
In Doctor Who stories, where the villain overtakes the companion's body or bases himself on the companions form, say, look at New Earth.

357
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:12.180
There's sort of lots of commentary from Cassandra in New Earth about the eccentricities of the body and whatnot.

358
00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:15.240
Whereas Eldra just goes, oh, you know, it'll do, I suppose.

359
00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:17.220
I have to slub it.

360
00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:20.039
The thing I really like.

361
00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:33.839
The crux of it is, you know, when they meet Morbius, they taunt him and then push him off a cliff, and when they, when they with Stigren, they taunt him and, you know, flip him into a virus, and they're always taunting the villains.

362
00:23:33.900 --> 00:23:36.000
But in this situation.

363
00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:39.000
They get 2 episodes of the villain being like another companion.

364
00:23:39.059 --> 00:23:40.859
That's something new.

365
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:46.559
You know, all the things you said that are wrong with the story, the uneven pacing, cliche, the lack of focus.

366
00:23:46.619 --> 00:23:47.759
I agree that they're there.

367
00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:55.259
But as always, what Bob Baker and Dave Martin do is they bring a new idea.

368
00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:58.619
And it's not necessarily the best fleshed out idea.

369
00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:04.259
You know, we've just had Louis Marx giving us a great historical runaround and before that, we had Robert Banks Stewart.

370
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:07.740
Yeah, it's certainly not as good as those other 2 stories.

371
00:24:07.799 --> 00:24:10.259
But that idea is intriguing.

372
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:16.079
I'm glad Doctor Who don't do it all the time, but the idea of a villain coming along.

373
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.380
Kind of coercing, but not really coercing the doctor.

374
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:21.359
The doctor's still happy to help in a fashion.

375
00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:25.619
The idea of a villain coming along as a companion is very interesting.

376
00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:28.079
And the story leads and builds to that.

377
00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:32.099
And then we get the traditional villainy comeuppance at the end.

378
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.079
No, I think it's really good.

379
00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:35.220
Okay.

380
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:41.819
So I think I agree with you on all that you've said, like in terms of those positives in the story.

381
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:46.740
And I really do like that, which is why I forgive this story a lot.

382
00:24:46.799 --> 00:24:48.599
I see all of its negatives and I do like it.

383
00:24:48.660 --> 00:24:50.819
I like the teaming up with the villain.

384
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:51.720
I think that is good.

385
00:24:51.779 --> 00:24:54.000
But what we do need to talk about is the final scene.

386
00:24:54.119 --> 00:25:05.400
So we've had, we have a moment where earlier on, I think it must be episode three, where the doctor is going into the complex to meet Eldred and Sarah follows him.

387
00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:07.140
And the doctor's not very demonstrative.

388
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:13.019
You know, in fact, a lot of the time he's really distant and he doesn't show much affection towards Sarah.

389
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:15.180
He's a little bit like Capaldi and Jenner, I think.

390
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:15.960
Do you know what I mean?

391
00:25:16.019 --> 00:25:18.900
You don't actually see, there's no physical affection between them.

392
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.480
He's frequently kind of short with her and things.

393
00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:26.940
But there is, there's that little moment where they say that they worry about each other.

394
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:30.660
You know, I worry about you and she says, well, I worry about you.

395
00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:37.740
And that's, you know, as close as we get to them kind of expressing how much they love each other.

396
00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:44.039
And it is that thing, you know, I've said that it's essentially poor writing that Sarah has kept following him into the TARDIS.

397
00:25:44.099 --> 00:25:48.539
But within the show, it is because she really likes him.

398
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.420
And she's the longest serving companion.

399
00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:53.460
Is she definitely the longest serving companion?

400
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:55.019
Distance.

401
00:25:55.019 --> 00:25:57.000
Yes. from her start to her end.

402
00:25:57.059 --> 00:25:59.339
Yeah, in terms of episodes?

403
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:00.539
No, no.

404
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:02.160
Yeah, yeah, it's still...

405
00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:03.720
Fraser Heinz has more, yeah.

406
00:26:03.779 --> 00:26:04.019
Yeah.

407
00:26:04.019 --> 00:26:09.240
Janet might have more time because there's a big gap between...

408
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:10.440
Moncopolis in season 19.

409
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:11.519
And Castraval.

410
00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:12.059
Right, right.

411
00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:16.079
But and she had a very short gap between her 1st and 2nd season too.

412
00:26:17.099 --> 00:26:17.640
L years.

413
00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:23.400
I really, if you go with 3 seasons +2 on, yeah. that is more.

414
00:26:23.460 --> 00:26:28.920
And, you know, since the 60s, you know, she's done more than Joe. She's been here for a long time.

415
00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:31.799
She's, you know, introduced us to Tom Bacon.

416
00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:33.660
She was the 1st companion I ever saw.

417
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:40.319
And so, remember, Brandon got a bit emotional when Pertry left, even as we were discussing it.

418
00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:45.720
And I said at the time, that never happened to me when the doctor changed, but it always did when the companions changed.

419
00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:49.500
And this was the first time that I had ever seen that happen.

420
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:51.779
And I was inconsolable.

421
00:26:51.839 --> 00:27:05.880
And this time I held it together, because I know that she's, she goes on, she'll be back in the 5 doctors and venture, we are lucky enough to have her for, you know, the Sarah Jane adventures for all those seasons.

422
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:12.299
So we know that this isn't the end of Lee Sladen's time as Sarah Jane Smith.

423
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.880
But it is a pretty good scene.

424
00:27:15.059 --> 00:27:24.240
It's a tremendous scene and I remember as a kid, as this was unfolding, I was just there going, this isn't happening.

425
00:27:24.299 --> 00:27:27.839
I was like in my own self and I was trying to hold back tears.

426
00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:37.019
I was blubbering, like, you know, and I went to bed, just distressed, and I remember having dreams, rewriting the end of this so that she would not leave.

427
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:47.400
Like I was that devastated by the whole thing. convincing myself that next episode that there'll be some rewrite and somehow that he'll go back and get it.

428
00:27:47.460 --> 00:27:48.900
I just couldn't cope with it.

429
00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:55.799
She does overact a little bit in it, and it is partly because the character is bunging it on.

430
00:27:55.859 --> 00:27:57.779
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

431
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:03.900
So she lists all the terrible things that have happened to her and she's going to leave, but she's just waiting for that Florana moment, isn't she?

432
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:04.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

433
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:06.720
Florana or cassiopear?

434
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:07.859
Yeah.

435
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:09.240
And it just doesn't come.

436
00:28:09.299 --> 00:28:25.440
And Tom is, again, it's hard to imagine like David Tennant not hugging or mugging or, you know, all of those kinds of things, you know, because he's so demonstrous, but Tom, like Tom even just does this sort of monosyllambic bye, you know, as she walks out.

437
00:28:25.559 --> 00:28:34.440
And then we get the, you know, remember me, don't forget me, and I won't forget you, but he doesn't really overtly show very much. affection towards her at all.

438
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.799
But that doesn't mean I think that it's not there.

439
00:28:40.859 --> 00:28:43.200
No, no, absolutely.

440
00:28:43.259 --> 00:28:47.519
I mean, especially sort of as she as she goes towards the door, he can't look at her.

441
00:28:47.579 --> 00:28:49.859
You know, he puts on his coat.

442
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.039
Eddie, he turns up his collar to block his view of her.

443
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:54.000
You know?

444
00:28:54.059 --> 00:28:57.599
The turn up collar would become a thing for him later, but he's never done it before.

445
00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:05.700
And yeah, I think it's the whole thing of I'm going to look very intently at the console now, so I don't have to watch you go.

446
00:29:05.759 --> 00:29:07.440
He only turns around when she speaks again.

447
00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:09.119
Yeah.

448
00:29:09.180 --> 00:29:11.400
So I'm getting emotional again.

449
00:29:11.460 --> 00:29:12.900
Yeah, no, I can see it.

450
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:14.039
I can see it.

451
00:29:14.099 --> 00:29:19.619
It is, it's, look, it's not quite as devastating a moment as Joe. No, no.

452
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:26.460
Which is weird because in a way, it's it's sadder because it's not her choice.

453
00:29:26.579 --> 00:29:27.720
Or his.

454
00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.359
Or he is, I mean, in a way, yeah.

455
00:29:31.019 --> 00:29:34.019
Yeah, it's sadder in that way.

456
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:46.079
But at the same time, it's also more hopeful because even though it's not her choice, she accepts it and we kind of know she's got a life to go back to, in Aberdeen.

457
00:29:46.140 --> 00:29:49.259
In Aberdeen, in Aberdeen, 2 years out of time, yeah.

458
00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:54.000
And it's, um, she mentions Harry and the brigadier.

459
00:29:54.059 --> 00:30:03.119
I think it's so, it's so funny that, you know, the brigadier hasn't been in the show for a year, but he's still mentioned, and you still mentioned all the way up to this and then no more.

460
00:30:03.180 --> 00:30:04.559
Yeah, yeah.

461
00:30:04.619 --> 00:30:05.279
Same with Harry.

462
00:30:05.339 --> 00:30:07.140
We'll never get another mention.

463
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:08.880
But I'm talking about the brigadier.

464
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:09.839
Yeah, yeah.

465
00:30:09.839 --> 00:30:12.359
It's been, you know, although it hasn't been in it for a year.

466
00:30:12.420 --> 00:30:25.200
He, you know, since the web of fear or whatever. you know, that that long, that grounding back to earth, that connection with the audience, which has been whittled away piece by piece is now gone.

467
00:30:25.259 --> 00:30:27.299
I won't attempt it again.

468
00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:27.839
Will they?

469
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:34.440
It's going to be a very long time before we get a companion from contemporary earth.

470
00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:35.579
We won't.

471
00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:43.259
And I think it's going to have a bigger impact on the show and it's success in terms of ratings, then we realise at this point in time.

472
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:45.839
That impact is not there yet, but it's about to be.

473
00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:46.740
Yeah, yeah.

474
00:30:47.099 --> 00:30:51.720
Talking about the impact of this, just moving way, way, way forward.

475
00:30:51.779 --> 00:31:15.960
One of the inspirations for flight through entirety was the podcast Splendid Chaps, which part of the creative team behind that was also behind the ABC series outlanded, which is about a group of gay science fiction fans, including Christine Anou as a lesbian character, whose girlfriend, played by Roz Hammond, comes over at one point during a meeting to collect her stuff because they've broken up.

476
00:31:16.019 --> 00:31:21.900
The stuff Ross Hammond has is all the stuff that Sarah Jane has when she leaves the Tartars.

477
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:23.640
Oh, like a stuff.

478
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:27.119
She's got a stuffed out, a pot plant, a yellow mac, and a tennis racket.

479
00:31:27.420 --> 00:31:30.240
And you know, I've never seen the show.

480
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:35.880
Her hair is done like Sarah Jane, and I'm pretty sure there's even the line in there of Don't Forget Me.

481
00:31:35.940 --> 00:31:37.019
Yeah.

482
00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:38.759
And it's very, it's very much observed.

483
00:31:38.819 --> 00:31:41.940
It's Adam Richard and Co. and he's a big Doctor Who fan.

484
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:45.779
Yeah, so, you know, that's the impact, that's the impact of this scene.

485
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:47.220
It's the impact of Sarah Jane.

486
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:55.500
You know, if you ask people, if they remember Doctor Who from their childhood, they're going to remember Tom Baker, maybe John Pertwee, but they're going to remember Sarah Jones Smith.

487
00:32:05.099 --> 00:32:20.940
Well, dear, so before we get too emotional, we're heading off into that undiscovered territory that Nathan and Todd were just talking about, we don't have contemporary Earth companions, and indeed, in the next story, we don't have any Earth characters at all.

488
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:26.940
I'll be taking over the discussion of deadly assassin, regarded by some as a massive classic.

489
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:28.559
It's very sweet how hopeful you are.

490
00:32:28.740 --> 00:32:30.779
Yes, I agree.

491
00:32:31.619 --> 00:32:36.359
And as you can see by some, perhaps not.

492
00:32:36.420 --> 00:32:43.500
Do find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

493
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.140
And if you check out bondfinger.com.

494
00:32:46.200 --> 00:32:50.880
We have 2 commentaries available, one for Dr. No and one for from Russia with love.

495
00:32:50.940 --> 00:32:56.759
Also, Bondfinger on Facebook, Bondfinger on iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

496
00:32:56.819 --> 00:32:59.640
Until then, thank you very much for listening and good night.

497
00:32:59.700 --> 00:33:00.960
Good night.

498
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.920
See you soon.

499
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:08.400
That one's flat your entirety with Todd Beeley, Nathan Buttonley, and Brendan Jones.

500
00:33:08.460 --> 00:33:14.099
This episode, not sufficiently executed enough, was recorded on Sunday, the 2nd of August.

501
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.460
The next episode will be released on September 27, 2015.

502
00:33:17.579 --> 00:33:22.559
If Eldred wanted to be hailed as king of nothing, he could have just become Australian prime minister.

503
00:33:28.980 --> 00:33:32.519
Two different sets, one with, is it Rex?

504
00:33:32.579 --> 00:33:34.200
Who's Rex Harrison?

505
00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:35.460
Rex Harrison's back.

506
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:35.819
You know?

507
00:33:35.819 --> 00:33:37.079
A radiology department.

508
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:37.680
Oh, sorry.

509
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:39.539
It's not Rex Harrison.

510
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:40.740
Oh, X Robinson.

511
00:33:40.799 --> 00:33:42.180
We'll do that again. put that on the credits.