Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor
Who podcast, who, thanks to the BBC makeup department, can't
actually blink because of all this stuff on our faces.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan.
And I understand we all sound the same.
We are heading back to the 1890s, both in terms of story setting
and racial politics for the talents of Weng Chiang.
I just want to talk about the elephant that is in the room.
And that is John Bennett, as Leasing Chang.
Taking a Caucasian man and putting yellow face on him for this
serial.
What the hell were they thinking?
And I say this now, like, in 2015.
I guess the thing is this, I look back at my childhood, and I
didn't even realise, as a small child, that he was in Yellowface, I
didn't, you know, and for many years, I didn't at all.
And even when I did come to that realisation, probably in my late
teens, like I was a bit slow on the uptake, I still didn't see it
as being a problem.
Now I see it has been quite a big problem.
Personally, I'd love to know what John Bennett thought about doing
this, what the Chinese members of the cast brought about this
actually happening, what UK fans thought of it at the time.
I mean, we know that the Canadians did not show this particular
cereal.
I'd love to know what Doctor Who fans who are non Caucasian
actually think about this.
I'd love to know what new who fans, who come to this show from the
new series, actually think about this when they see it.
I just find it really hard to sort of take myself away from that
10 year old kid.
I lived in a suburb here in Australia, at the time in the late
1970s, where there weren't Chinese people.
We had one Chinese restaurant.
To go to McDonald's, you had to actually travel two suburbs away.
You know, this is my world at the time.
So I find it really hard to be completely outraged to the nth
degree.
I watch this now, and I go, what were they thinking?
But then I sort of get over it.
And I go, well, he's always been Lisa Chang to me.
That's just him.
And I think it's a great performance.
And I just get on with it.
But I can totally understand if people are completely utterly, you
know, outraged.
And I'd love to know.
I mean, please, post some comments in the website.
I really would like to know.
You guys?
Yeah, well, people really push back against the idea that the
Doctor Who is racist, and it's because, you know, we love Doctor
Who.
It's part of our childhood.
I, you know, talent of Wing Chang is a massively enjoyable and
well made story.
And so we don't want to think of it as being racist, and we've had
conversations online since starting the podcast.
You know, we identified celestial toy makers, racists, and we arc
is racist, and I think they fairly, clearly are.
But people don't want to admit it.
Do you know what I mean?
And we'll tie themselves in all sorts of interpretive knots to get
away from it.
And so you constantly hear, Oh, there weren't any Chinese people
in 1976.
And so they just had to slap some fake epicanthic folds on John
Bennett and point him in the direction of the camera.
And I just don't think that's good enough.
Like, I don't believe that there wasn't a Chinese actor
available.
He looks ridiculous.
I mean, he just looks ridiculous.
And there are exactly your point, I think, is a really good one.
There are Chinese cast members.
Do you know what I mean, standing around him.
What on earth must they be thinking?
And I think the problem with the story, look, I mean, I do, at
some point, want to get on to how great it is, and there are some
really good things to say about it.
The story is really, it's not just John Bennett, but it's the
racism of the story.
Like, in our intro, I said, I understand we all sound the same, but
he actually says, I understand we all look the same.
I mean, my goodness.
Yeah, when in fact, Lisa and Chang, you don't look like any Asian
person who has ever existed.
And, you know, people say, well, that's him mocking the
Europeans.
Do you know what I mean?
And people point out that Casey is a stereotype as well, you know
he's a drunken, superstitious Irishman who's sort of cowardly and
irrational and all of that sort of thing.
And that Jago is a stereotype as well.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah, I think a lightfoot to an extent.
Yeah, yeah, he's kind of, you know, a bit like Dr. Watson or
something like that.
But, you know, those stereotypes who are us. you know what I
mean?
Who are white British people, like the members of the audience.
They can't be as kind of negative as and cutting as the as the
stereotypes of the other.
And so people, people say, oh, you know, Chang's a very
sympathetic character.
He's very smart, you know, all of those sorts of things, and he
plays on the stereotypes.
And we see him being kind of racist.
You know, when he performs on stage, um, He does that shockingly
embarrassing accent with the R's and the L's, you know, uh, and he
does the, ah, you know, one of us is yellow line and stuff like
that.
And all of that is sort of just butt clenchingly embarrassing
now.
But people say, well, you know, he's mocking the racism of the era
and things.
But I don't think it comes across like that at all.
No, I mean, this is what people say, and there is something to be
said for the character is a stage performer.
He has a stage accent, which is more Chinese than more kind of
stereotype Chinese than the actual accent.
But the fact of the manner is, it's a white guy in makeup doing a
Chinese accent.
And so it just sort of falls flat.
Yeah, exactly.
So Chang's ironic asides, if you like. work on paper.
If the character is being played by a Chinese actor, or if at the
end of episode 5 when he dies, he reveals that as a character
inside the show, he's a white guy wearing a mask.
That would have been great.
Oh, wow.
The rat shoes off his his mask to reveal.
That would have, you know, John Bennett.
Hi.
I'm John.
Yeah, it's a bit like later on in Power of Kroll, where we have a
really rubbish representation of Kroll, end of episode one, and it
turns out it's a guy in a crap suit. to be a guy in a crap suit.
Probably looks more convincing from the front.
Yeah, exactly.
You know.
As far as it goes, if you like, I think John Bennett gives the
best performance he can.
But the whole concept is working against... an acceptable
performance of the character.
The character is racist.
All this stuff about him being a sympathetic character.
He's a sinister Chinaman who kind of lurks around the place
abducting women from the streets and handing them over to his
master to be murdered.
Do you know what I mean?
That's not that sympathetic, you know.
So that's another problem I have with this story, is that all
these women are being killed.
Why does Gruel have to have young women?
Why can't it just be anybody?
Is it real?
Oh, sorry.
I'm getting a bit confused with the player once did.
I'm bringing that up.
We once did, I should say, sorry.
Like, that's another plot point that I just think is just
unbelievable that it's, you know, it's not equal opportunity death
here.
It's like, you know, it's only young women who are scantily clad
that get murdered.
And again, people say, well, you know, this is said in the
Victorian era, and it's playing with Victorian era stereotypes, and
it's a Jack, the re-analog and all of that, and English people
were very racist about Chinese people in the 1890s, and stuff like
that.
But, you know, that's not really good enough.
And, you know, let's take a look at the Crimson horror from just a
couple of years ago in the new series.
You know, it had strong female villain and female characters. and
stuff and still played with all of those stereotypes, but without
there are two speaking women, as usual, for a Hinchcliffe story.
In fact, in fact, this is the big renaissance of feminism in the
Hinchcliffe era where, for two stories in a row, we've had two
speaking women parts.
One of them is the ghoul who sees them pulling the body from the
thing and says, oh, you wouldn't want that served up with onions.
And then the other is a prostitute who gets, you know, kidnapped
off the street by the sympathetic, Lisa and Chang, and then, oh
she does escape, I think, doesn't she?
She doesn't actually.
Yeah, yeah.
Well Leila say...
So the representation of women is just terrible and it's just not
good enough, I think, to say, oh, we're just using these old
stereotypes and we're not going to re-examine them.
And it's Bob Holmes.
Do you know what I mean?
Bob Holmes is very lazy about that.
And it's what gave us the all male cast of pyramids of Mars
because he doesn't bother to re-examine, you know, those
stereotypes and freshen them and do something more interesting
with them.
He's just content to fall back on them.
You know, it's what gives us the racism in pyramids of Mars, you
know, with all the superstitious, savage Egyptians, you know
running away and being patronised by the white guy.
And, and, you know, Shaw Holmes makes fun of colonialism and makes
fun of those white guys.
But what he doesn't do is a critique of colonialism and what he
does is just unthinkingly repeat these stereotypes.
It's not just Lisa and Chang either.
Like the, all of our characters.
All of the sympathetic characters from Lightfoot, to Jago, to the
doctor, and Leila, all say things that we would regard as racist.
Do you know what I mean?
So there's, you know, Jago talks about the celestial Chang, we get
you know, more Wongs for the tong from Jago.
Lightfoot refers to the Chinese people as devils, you know, the
doctor and Leila talk about little men, Leila calls Chang, the
yellow one.
And Sandra points this out, even when at the very end in episode 6
where all of Greal's Chinese men come in to get the doctor.
The doctor makes this joke, life's full of little surprises.
Do you know what I mean?
And at that point, he says, I'm not even going to bother working
out whether that's deliberately racist or not, but the doctor
calls them all little man in episode one.
You know, like all of that stuff is just so it's just done so
thoughtlessly.
Yeah.
Well, I think Nathan, just to sort of counterpoint that, you've
had a previous script editor, I think, in Terrence Sticks, who
probably was pretty much aware of that sort of thing.
I mean, I think if we look at British television throughout the
1970s.
There is so much sexism and racism and sitcoms and Doctor Who
actually comes across really quite well compared to all of those
things.
But Bob Holmes does not have the moral compass to be able to
moderate himself as well as, I think, the previous script editor
on this account.
And I think that, but I think it's also really easy to apply where
we are now with what we think is acceptable and not, like, to
productions now, and you're talking about the crimson horror and
how all that's done.
Back in the 1970s, that's not the culture that's around.
So I think it's much harder to be able to, and Doctor Who, on the
most part, has been able to not be as racist.
So here, yes, you've put up all these points about all this race
and racism in all of these aspects.
And I don't think all of those things are necessarily extremely
racist, like in intent.
I think some are much more than others.
Like if you take a few in isolation.
I think the intent is there to send it up, but then as they add up
that intent diminishes and so it comes across much more racism
than what it actually is.
If you look at if you look at Marco Polo, for instance, you know
what I mean?
Like, again, there's lots of sort of characters in Yellowface, and
it does seem a bit less offensive in black and white for some
reason, but you've got Zenia Merton and stuff.
And there's a sort of sympathetic portrayal of a whole range of
different characters.
I think the guy in Mind of Evil, the Chinese delegate is great.
And he's treated very well.
There are some slightly.
There's only one Chinese woman in London in that story, obviously.
But, you know, otherwise that's sort of pretty good.
I think the story in Tibet, abominable snowmen, again, do you know
what I mean?
Like, yeah, it's a bit collectable. despite the fact they're all
sort of white guys, and most of them are Welsh.
You know, it's still a sympathetic portrayal.
Well, it's slightly dodgy by modern characteristics, but it's
certainly streets ahead of talents of weighing Cheyangg.
So I think you're right.
I think that Holmes, it is possible for Doctor Who, even in the
70s not to be as racist as this.
Do you know what I mean?
So even comparing it against earlier shows, I think it comes off
worse.
Yes, no, I do agree.
Something that's interesting then is some modern reappraisal.
So, of course, we mentioned earlier at the time, um, TV, Ontario
uh, just didn't show talent to Wing Chang, and a lot of Canadian
TV stations, didn't show it after a complaint from Canadian
Chinese and Asian groups.
Now, if we look back to the 90s, one of the sort of seminal Doctor
Who research works that came out was the discontinuity guide by
Paul Cornell, Martin Day, and Keith Topping.
Here's what they have to say about racism and talent of Wang
Chiang.
One of the great moments of Doctor Who history, an effortless
conquering of the pseudo historical genre with a peerless script.
The story features another classic Robert Holmes double act, the
theatrical Henry Jago and Professor Lightfoot, although they don't
actually meet until episode five.
Spending the previous episodes taking turns at playing Watson All
Estrade to the doctor's Sherlock.
Oh, wait, they don't mention it.
Meanwhile, 10 years later, in Doctor of the Telecomvision
companion by David J.
Howe, it's the characters that really make the talons of Wayne
Chiang shine.
John Bennett is faultless as the inscrutable Lisa Chang.
And his performance and makeup are so convincing that it's
difficult to believe he is not actually Chinese.
It really isn't that difficult.
Maybe he hasn't met any Chinese people.
I have a great deal of respect for David J.
Howard, but yeah, I think he's never met a Chinese.
And my 10 year old self would have agreed with her.
Yeah, not my 40 year old self.
Exactly.
You know, and I think if people are going to talk about this story
honestly, they have to acknowledge that there was a time where
they didn't see a problem with it.
And that's my perspective.
There was a time when I never saw a problem.
And for many, many, many years.
You're younger than us.
Were your experiences any different?
Well, I was just going to say that when I when I was at primary
school, I had a lot of friends who were Chinese or Vietnamese or
Japanese from various parts of Asia originally.
And I don't think my young self saw a white man in yellow face, you
know?
It wasn't until, as with Utah, it wasn't until I got older. that I
saw, you know, that it was, a white man in makeup.
But I still wasn't necessarily outrage.
I mean, we had about one Chinese family in the entire school when
I was...
I'm not...
I'm not outraged, but I'm uncomfortable with it and I'm
uncomfortable with it for the sake of, you know what?
When people think of Asian actors in the UK, in the 60s and 70s.
They immediately think Bert Klock.
Who will be in Doctor Who?
and was active at this time.
And, you know, if people come back and say, oh, maybe he wasn't
available.
Okay, maybe he wasn't available.
But he's not Captain Chin Li.
He's not the only Chinese person in London.
You know.
There's got to have been someone who was actually Chinese or even
Japanese or Korean or Vietnamese, an actual Asian actor they could
have got in there because another racial controversy recently was
the casting of John Cho as Sulu in the Star Trek films because
he's not Japanese.
But when George Decay, the original Sulu was asked about it, George
Decay said, I have no problem with him playing a Japanese
character, because Sulu does not represent Japan.
Sulu represents the whole of Asia.
Yeah, yeah.
And no one from Asia was on television when Sulu came about.
And he's like, I've got no problem with anyone from Asia playing
Sulu.
Yeah, well, I mean, if they could face John Bennett with some
latex eyebrows.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I'm sure that no one would have been home thinking, I think
he might actually come from Japan.
Look, I'm really glad that we've had this discussion about this
and I hope that it makes the listeners out there think about
things.
Or switch off, probably.
Well, either way, but you know, just during their sacred cow.
But I really would be interested to actually read some more
feedback from other people on.
I really would.
I'd love to now talk about some of the positives in this story.
Yeah, we do we do have another 10 minutes we can do.
I think we really should.
I want to go with Jago and Lightfoot.
In particular, Lightfoot, who I just adore as a character, and his
reactions with Leila, especially when she's eating, are just
wonderful.
I just love him as a kid.
I just, you know, he was this doctor professor who, well, he just
is this gentleman, and I just really, really liked him.
Jago, on the other hand, I could have just, like, killed within
the first 10 minutes of the story.
One of these buffoons that I just loathe in Doctor Who, like the
pirate captain and, no, no, no, just perfect for performances, I
really don't like them to begin with.
But by episode five, when he admits that he's afraid, that's when
I really love the character.
And then going back and watching it again, like, you know, I still
like the 1st few episodes, it's like, 0 my goodness.
But I just love him by the end.
Holmes is brilliant dialogue as well.
Do you know what I mean?
Everything he says is so funny.
I think he's terrific, and the 2 of them are amazing, and Cornell
they and topping, say, it's always a surprise to see them not
actually meet until midway through episode five.
Yeah, because you feel like they're together for the whole story.
And of course, when they do meet, it's this whole British class
system happening again because Lightfoot happens to be cleaning
something at the time.
He must be a butler and therefore must be spoken down to and get
me your master, et cetera, et cetera.
It's completely understandable how, uh, Christopher Benjamin and
Trevor Baxter are still playing the characters to this day in big
finish.
And of course, we we're soon to have Jago and Lightfoot and
Strax.
Which is going to be insane.
It's a combination of the script.
And really, the 2 actors giving it their all as well.
You know, they create these perfectly rounded characters and they
have that nuanced, like you mentioned, told of Jago admitting his
fear at the end there.
And that scene.
It's kind of a replay of a scene we discussed in Planet of the
Daleks, you know, courage isn't a matter of not being scared, it's
being scared and doing what you have to do anyway.
But it doesn't have the Terry Nation sledgehammer approach.
You know, in that scene, you had pertly sort of dictating what
courage was.
This is Jago and Lightfoot discussing and coming to a conclusion
together on what courage is and more so what fear is.
And it's a real defining moment for the 2 of them.
Speaking of fear.
As a child, I was absolutely, absolutely mortified by Mr. Sin.
Like, I was terrified, terrified.
I had nightmares.
I think it's a fantastic performance.
It's a terrific character too, isn't it?
Just the way he goes out of control in episode seeks and virtually
just kills Greel, you know, and the laugh and all of that sort of
thing.
It's really really great.
And just the whole look of the doll and everything, even the
dialogue between him and Chang on stage is terrifically funny.
Like I think he's great.
I think the production here is just spectacular.
And it's something, you know, the BBC, we've said it before, can
do period stuff, the Victorian stuff, it can do really well, but
they're just throwing stacks of money at it.
So they've got some great locations on film.
They've got night shoots, you know, like they've got OB stuff, you
know, like...
Yep, the stuff in the theatre on videotape.
Lightfoot, some laboratories on videotape, you know, in a
location.
There's stuff outdoors, I think, that's on OB cameras well.
So the whole thing is really lavish and really expensive.
Lots of shooting at night.
It's really, really atmospheric.
Like, the story goes that Hinchcliffe knew that he was going and
just thought we'll spend next year's budget as well.
I mean, you're watching Invisible Enemy next year.
You'll know why.
I even like the haystack.
I like stack.
Yeah.
So do we know this story?
Someone didn't move their card before shooting.
And so they're stuck with the location that they want to shoot in
and there's a car in the middle of it.
So they just cover it with hay.
Yeah, yeah.
They put a tarpaulin over it first.
So you can get hay in the gear ship.
They shouldn't have done that.
Just coming back to something you were saying earlier, all that
work in the theatre and the chase sequence in the theatre.
It's Walsh Watch.
Oh, is it?
We've got Terry doubling for Tom in some of that, like the swing
over and whatnot.
Terry and Stuart fell, doubling for Tom and Michael Spice, the
lesser known Spice Girl.
He was Morbius, of course last year.
Yes, he was.
That also made me think of another favourite moment I have for
Lightfoot.
It's when Leila comes down in her new dress after she's been
through her ordeal in the sewers and we'll get onto the giant rat
in a moment.
No, no, can we get onto the dress in a moment?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But she comes down in this dress and Trevor Baxter's reaction as
Lightfoot.
There have been many allegations and suggestions that Leila was
brought in to boost the show sex appeal.
So it would be very easy for Trevor Baxter to play that scene as
an older man in lust after a younger woman.
But that is not how the scene comes across.
He looks like a proud father.
Don't you think it's like Henry Higgins and Colonel PJ going off
arm in arm to buy a lovely dress for...
Oh, absolutely.
And I've seen Rupert Everett as Henry Higgins.
So yeah, that's definitely happening there.
So Nathan, you wanted to talk about Leila and the Rat.
Well, I want to talk about the dress. you know what I mean?
And like we've had dress or the dress that she's wearing when
she's menaced by the right.
Well, we'll talk about it'll all come up.
It's all one big thing.
It's all very frock.
We've seen we've seen 8 episodes where Leila's written by Chris
Belcher and he writes her as someone who's intelligent, as we said
but instinctual, do you know what I mean?
Who quickly grasps things the doctor tells her?
and is smart and intelligent.
She dismisses the doctor's explanation of the Tartas as, you know
dimensional transcendental illness.
I meant to say that.
Do you know what I mean?
As silly.
You know, she's not stupid at all.
But in this story, I think she's completely defanged, and she's
written as an idiot, and she's also written as a purely peril
monkey.
Do you know what I mean, as someone in peril?
And so we see her, racing through the sewers in her transparent
undies.
Dewey see some nipple there, Todd?
Possibly.
Yes.
She screams when the tongue attack her.
Do you know what I mean?
She's really fairly useless in that scene.
All of the stuff about her not understanding Victorian morals and
etiquette and stuff.
Maybe with the exception of the really good conversation about tea
in episode six, is her being kind of stupid and slow on the
uptake.
And just the pride with which she shows off her new dress.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, she's just turned into such a girly girl.
And it just enrages me that she's so defanged in this story by
Holmes.
I'm sorry, I can't agree at all.
OK, yes, when she's attacked by the tong.
She screams, because there's six of them.
You know?
She's Leila, do you know what I mean?
Well, exactly.
Later on, she's killing people with Janus thorns because they're
trying to attack the doctor.
The whole reason she gets captured by Lisa and Chang is because
she saved someone else to put herself in danger.
The stuff about the Victorian etiquette is sending up Victorian
etiquette, like when she picks up the bone to eat and starts
eating with her hand. standing up Victorian etiquette because we
have the same things.
Do you know what I mean?
We eat with knives and forks and you don't pick the food up out of
your thing.
And in fact, Lightfoot comes over, comes across as a gentleman, you
know, confronted by an idiot.
Do you know what I mean?
And he's being very lovely about it.
But here's the thing, right?
In our modern culture, we might say to someone, oh, no, you know
it's much better if you eat with a knife and fork.
The reason that Lightfoot starts eating with his hands as well is
in Victorian culture, you would not embarrass your guest.
You would not point out a faux pas.
You wouldn't invite them round again.
That's what you do.
But he would not embarrass them by pointing out where they got it
wrong.
And that's stupid.
He does step in when she goes to wipe her face on the tablecloth.
And she's wrestling.
The thing is, she doesn't mind that.
She goes, oh, okay, that's the proper thing to do.
Whereas if he'd done that before and said, oh, if you use this
Leila adapts to situation she's in and she does kind of respond to
that kind of feedback of, oh, this is what you do.
And that's what I think the dress is about.
I don't think she is necessarily proud of the dress, but look at
her face.
It's embarrassing.
Because the professor has shown her kindness and hospitality, and
it shows that even though she is not cultured in the sense of the
Victorian era.
She is cultured in a way that you show gratitude to people who
have shown you kindness.
So I still think she is a very strong character in this because
she's arriving at the same conclusions as everyone else, but
through a different method.
And when the doctor's explaining the science of like the zigma
beam, you know, she does the Futurama thing of putting too much
air in a balloon.
You mean there's a hole in the water bag and the hole is getting
bigger.
She completely understands the science 1st thing.
See, the dress is a picture for me of someone who is getting male
approval for being a proper girly for the 1st time and really
enjoying that.
And so it just sees her put in a proper feminine box where Holmes
wants her, it does set my teeth on edge.
I'm afraid.
I'm not as outraged as you, Nathan, on these matters.
I probably are somewhere in between.
I can see both points of view. the whole screaming from the rat
and that sequence, which I think really defangs her, but the other
stuff, I actually think that she's quite natural in that and I
don't really have a problem with it.
No, I think she's better spoiler alert next week in horror of Hang
Rock.
Do you know what I mean?
I think she's a lot better and she is given a girly counterpoint.
Do you know what I mean?
Whom she can be better than.
But there is a tendency, I think, in the following season to shed
the boucher characterisation and just writer as an idiot.
Now, we've mentioned the rat.
It's so bad.
That scene.
That 1st scene when you see it and it's a tiny rat crawling
through like a toilet roll representation of the sewer tunnel.
I like the way it sort of bounces along.
It's impossible to tell that the actual miniature rat inside the
miniature tunnel that that's supposed to be a giant rat.
Like you can't tell.
Yeah, yeah, it's not from below.
No sense of scale.
I just thought it was one of the rats in the sewer.
No, it's meant to be the giant rats.
You see, that's how poor it is.
And then the other one, which looks like it's just come fresh from
a rat hair salon. you know what I mean?
So it's, you know, and I'm sure that someone else pointed this out
you know, I'm not the 1st to say this, but its hair just looks
like nylon.
Do you know what I mean?
And like, its teeth look like basil brushes, front teeth.
It doesn't look remotely and the way that it, the way that it
bounces up and down is just absurd.
And we do see this with Holmes, where Holmes is much more
interested in writing about people, and that's a good thing.
Do you know what I mean?
And so in Power of Kroll, there's one big monster.
In Rebus operation, Rebus operation, there's the Shrivenzal.
In case of Anjazani, there's the magma creature.
You know, he'll very frequently just throw in, even Carnival of
Monsters has, you know, drashings and stuff, but essentially, the
idea is he'll throw in a monster just to blockade us because it's
Doctor Who.
But essentially he's more interested in people.
And that's good, that's laudable.
You know what I mean?
But I just sort of wonder what the rat's there for.
It would so easily, the story would have coped without the rat
right.
What do we think of Michael Spice's performance as Bent Face?
Sometimes I think he's a bit over the top, but he does have quiet
moments as well.
That moment in, is the episode 5 or 6 where he actually has his
1st meeting with the doctor and they sit down at Lightfoot's table
and talk about the situation.
Is it the one where the doctor looks up and suddenly notices that
he's there?
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
He's talking to Leila.
He sits down and he looks up and it's Greal sitting next to him.
And that conversation is great. isn't it?
Yeah, yeah.
I think that's a I think that's a wonderful conversation.
But then you get seems like, full, a time agent, what does ask
such questions or whatever it is?
It's the usual thing that Holmes does where the villains call
everyone really rude.
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.
I just have to wait.
Let the talons of Wang Chi-ang.
And I just can't watch that anymore without bursting into laughter
because many years ago.
Many years ago, Nathan and I were involved in a little Doctor Who
play for a convention here in Sydney.
And, um, A good friend of ours, Simon Moore.
Friend of the podcast?
Friend of the podcast, Simon Moore, portrayed Mangus Grill.
And the way he delivered that line, I never really registered at
the time that that's the way it was delivered in the show.
And so I just, I now watch this, this show and there's just so
much stuff that, um, Simon was doing and that friend of the
podcast, Peter Griffiths, who wrote the script, like just sends up
and just twists the lines and I just sit there laughing my head
off when I know that I shouldn't be.
I will also just point out that that play, which was called
There's Something about Magnus, the guy who drained me.
That play is superior to this story in at least one respect.
I think we had an actual Chinese person in it.
There was an actual Asian actor playing Lisa and Chang.
And I do recall there was a wonderful moment where you had Simon
as Magnus Greel, and I never knew the man.
Anthony Yee, Anthony Yee, as Lisa and Chang.
Grill is giving him a telling off.
Like, you're fool!
You don't, you, you, you, and Cheng just inscrutable Asian
stereotype.
You inscrutable Asian stereotype.
And I remember that, I think, got one.
The 2nd biggest laugh.
I think the 1st biggest laugh was Sylvester McCoy playing Joe
Grant.
My God, the things we did.
Here's Joe Grant.
And then, of course, the lovely Nicola Bryant says, well, the
ultimate manga squeal.
And I do remember the next day, Casey wasn't at the convention
that day.
She was at the convention the 2nd day. and found out they did a
play and she turned...
Oh, you did a play.
Were you in it, Sylvester?
Oh yes, I was you, darling.
Oh, haven't we all been, darling?
Oh, God, they were good sports.
So, the legacy of...
Holmes Hinchcliffe.
Here we are.
Yeah, this is good, yeah.
Now, I just want to say this. 21 episodes of this season. in the
top 25 shows of the week, which is, you know, a significant
uptick.
Over the last few years, it's been building.
I think there's like 13 episodes of previous 2 years.
And even in John's last season, I think there's 12 episodes that
are in the top 25.
And so really since season 10, Doctor Who has been moving from top
30, top 25, and this year, you know, into, you know, the top 20
even more so.
But it's all about to change.
Tom's only had one episode outside the top 50.
Only 10 of his episodes over these 3 seasons are, in fact, outside
the top 30.
Right.
Starting from next year, there are only 16 more episodes of Doctor
Who that are inside the top 30.
Like ever.
Wow. 15 of those are up to the end of the Graham Williams era, in
the Horns of Nine.
And only the Horns that I'm in part four, and episode one of Time
Flight.
For the 1980s, they're only two episodes that are in the top 30.
Goodness.
And the only episode remaining, that the Rock 2 makes the top 20
is City of Death, Episode 4.
Because the other side was on strike.
Well, if that's true.
But there's a significant shift.
Next year, for the first time, since season seven, there is not a
single episode of Doctor Who inside the top 20.
Wow.
There's only two episodes, of The Horror of Frame Rock, that make
it to number 23, and nothing else in the top 25.
So there's a significant shift, in Doctor Who's Audience, starting
from the beginning of next season.
And this is before people know about Graham Williams, or lack of
budgets, or robot dogs, or whatever you want to say.
But there's a change, and people will choose after this story, not
to come back and watch the show in the same numbers.
Now, I'm being very dramatic over the next three years, there's
still many episodes of Doctor Who between 30 and 50th, and in
Davidson's first year, as well.
But what was once building and building and building, which really
started in the second half of John Pertwee's second series, with
the show shifted into the top 30 for the first time in a long time
it suddenly moving back out of the top 2025.
Is this the legacy of the Holmes Hinchcliffe era, and why is that
the case?
Now we've discussed things, you know?
previously about characterisation, Sarah, for example, becoming
less real, that audience identification?
Is it that?
You know, it is this thing where it takes a while, you know what I
mean?
Like, it's not, people decided not to tune into the invisible
enemy, because they thought it would be terrible.
Do you know what I mean?
It has to be a response to previous things.
That's right.
Like, I think people rightly regard the Hinchcliffe era as a high
point for the show, just because of the look of it and, you know
the writing and stuff.
It is really effective.
So I don't know that I want to lay... certainly the stuff in the
80s, you know, there's no way that that's directly a result of
people switching off during Hingcliffe, you know, I think the
80s.
Oh, no, no, but what I'm saying is that there is a change. right?
It's not must see TV for all of that audience anymore.
Well, Santa for, um, in his entry on the invisible enemy talks
about really the slow slide cancellation that sort of kicks in
there.
And part of it is Inchcliffe's fault, you know, in that the show
is excessively violent and comes under much greater scrutiny.
Some of it's the fault of the economy.
Do you know what I mean?
Oh, well, Hinchcliffe's fault in that he spends all the money on
towns of Wayne Cheyang, and leaves Williams with a reduced budget
but some of it's economical.
Do you know what I mean?
That there's massive inflation and the money doesn't go very far.
And so suddenly Doctor Who starts to look really ropey.
But I mean, on the counterpoint, you know, episode 4 of Underworld
which we know is not very good.
In terms of money wise. is the highest rated episode next season
in terms of viewers.
Like there's no logic necessarily logical reason.
And so I'm hoping that's something that you guys will explore
during, you know, next year and and, and, you know, reflecting on
where we've been with homes in Hinchcliffe and where homes and
where homes will go.
I think it's a good point.
I think we are entering a sort of long death march now.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, I'll be saying tiresome a lot more often, I think, probably
from here on in.
I lay the blame on something very simple.
Star Wars.
And Graham Williams and I think Anthony Reid and Tom Baker went to
see Star Wars and came out and essentially said, oh, 4 letter
word.
We're screwed. pretty much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because this is now the 1st time that people can find their sci-fi
heroes on the big screen.
Yeah. and have a new avenue, whereas Doctor Who has been that
conduit for cult sort of television superhero sort of thing in
Britain.
And now there's going to be a shift.
Yeah.
Sorry, that's a bit of a downer.
I didn't want it to be like that, but I just wanted to bring up
that there was...
We've had this super success and this season has been
extraordinary.
Not one episode outside the top 40 for the whole season.
Right.
So on that note of a steady decline, we are slide into our Jenny
Led awards, Nathan, would you like to go first?
Well, I mean, I hate to be really obvious, but it just has to be
the rat, doesn't it?
Like we've gone on about the rat, but the rat, you know, I've been
roundly critical of talents of Wing Chiang, but it is incredibly
well made.
Do you know what I mean?
It looks spectacular and expensive.
It's just terrific, but the rat is just the worst thing in the
entire season.
And Holmes must have known that they weren't...
This is the man who called, you know, the lizard monsters from
Carnival of Monsters, the Drashigs, because it was an anagram of
Dishrag.
And he thought that that's what they would be made of.
He's got to have known that the production team wasn't going to be
able to pull off anything like a convincing giant rat.
And a story that has the things leading up to the giant rat, the
scene where the doctor's on the boat.
Do you know what I mean?
With the elephant gun heading into the Fleet River, just looks
incredible, you know, like as good as Doctor Who has ever, ever
ever looked.
And it's a giant, giant sore point in the entire story.
And what's amazing is around the same time, the new Avengers
actually do a better giant rat than Doctor Who.
In the episode, Naws.
Is it good?
Should we seek it out?
It's okay.
It's OK. A lot of people don't like it, but you've got to realise
that it's a parody of Jaws with the least likely animal possible.
Oh, so G-N-A-W-S. Yes, North, brilliant.
Genius.
Okay, my Jenny Led Award has to go to...
Where are all the women of Galafray?
In The Deadly Assassin.
Why is Galifre entirely populated with men?
Where are all of them?
story?
Well, even so, you know, you would think that there'd be some
logical thought of There must be some women somewhere.
As we discussed with Deadly Assassin, you know, I don't have a big
problem with the way the Time Lord society is presented as
stagnant and defeat and what have you.
But where are the women?
That's my Jenny Led.
Where are you?
I think that's really, really good.
Where are the women?
But I'm just gonna say...
I'm just going to say, that's my genuinely reward.
Where are the women, Bob?
Where are the women?
Where do the women feel too?
Oh, yes, the entire Hinchcliffe era.
It's just appalling.
And either side, do you know what I mean?
We'll start to get more women in Graham Williams.
Either that or it has to be the Tesh costumes.
That's the other thing.
I'm going to think, okay, that might supersede.
Well, well, you can decide.
If it's a eugenic.
I think I said this last time, if it's a eugenics experiment, why
are they all man?
Like how are the fish breeding?
Where are the women?
So, hold on, let's do a quick count.
So we've got Hilda Winters.
We've got Vira.
No one in Santaran Experiment.
We got Betan. no one in revenge.
Sister Lamond.
Yes, she counts as being a named character.
No one in Pyramids or Planet of Evil.
We've got Tessa, Jeff.
Yes.
I love Tessa.
She's Miss Paget for the late 70s.
We've got Ahika and Maran.
They're the only 2 named ones, I think, of the sisterhood.
We have Emilio Ducan, of course.
No named women in masked man, Dragara.
Eldred?
Yeah, right.
And Miss...
I keep going to say Miss Paget.
Miss Jackson.
Thank you.
It's right to 10.
We're up to 10.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
Deadly assassin, nuts.
Face of evil, nut.
Pilot Toose, Zilda...
Well, she doesn't get named.
I'm only counting named women.
All right.
And does the prostitute get named?
She's probably called Elsie or Edith or something.
Oh, one of the cleaners gets named.
Okay.
Actually, you know what?
Well, if now women are dying.
Let's be generous.
Count women with dialogue, so let's let's also have the high
minister.
Oh yeah.
The computer in...
Let's not go too soon.
I wouldn't count...
They haven't been seen on screen.
So seen on screen with dialogue.
So we have the prostitute in Talons of Wing Chiang.
We have the cleaner and we have.
She doesn't say anything.
She does it, the cleaner doesn't say anything.
Oh, okay.
They laugh.
The ghoul.
Okay.
So, 14. 14 women in 17 stories.
Yep.
It's really poor.
And like, you know, like I'm not being quota guy or anything.
It's just less entertaining.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, it's a sausage fest.
It's like watching The Hobbit films.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's it's just tiresome.
We should do pics of the week.
That's our best Jenny Lad award for a long time, though.
Yeah, where are the women?
Yeah well done.
Where are the women?
I've got two.
So do I. Well, I'll start because I don't really have any.
But I would go with Big Finish, Jago and Lightfoot.
I think that's their entire series.
And I think anything with Pamela Salmon is my picket a week.
So, you know, maybe a thing called remembrance of the Daleks.
She's fabulous in that?
Yep.
She's a great cardigan in that.
Yeah, she's got great hair.
She's just great.
And she's also back in Big Finish as well, with countermeasures.
Oh, and you could watch that episode of Blake 7 that she's in.
She's in...
Oh, look, Signus Alpha.
Well, I have seen that.
She looks fabulous in that too.
Oh, look, just send it, you know, just writing the commentary, you
know, Todd, this is where you should be watching Pamela, you
know.
Pamela, even, you know, you could also just comment on our block.
Yeah.
My two, one's very short.
It'll be up on the website.
It's called East Asians react to yellowface.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah.
So it's, um, yeah, put together by BuzzFeed.
So some of their editorial team who are Asian, watching
yellowface.
So specifically there's Marlon Brando, there's Mickey Rooney in
Breakfast at Tiffany's, and there is even someone from Cloud Atlas
in 2012 and they not only do they watch the scenes and sort of
have their immediate reactions film.
They also discuss how it makes them feel, how it made them feel as
children to watch these sorts of characters.
And how they're surprised that in a way, it's still happening.
My other pick, which is a bit more Doctor Who related.
Talons of Wang Chiang was another Robert Holmes script, which was
a last minute rewrite of a concept that Robert Banks Stewart was
meant to be turning into a script.
So on the back of Terep to Zigons and Scenes of Doom, he was going
to write a story called Foe from the Future, which gets name
checked in the dialogue of Talons.
Foe from the Future has been recorded by Big Finnish.
It's available in the 4th Dr. Lost Stories box set.
And It does have some similar concepts, but it is a wildly
different story.
And in terms of concept, I might even say a superior one.
That's in terms of concept.
What about an execution?
You know what, in execution, it is not as unique as talents
because it's a lot more rooted in the science fictional world, but
it does use science fiction ideas that Doctor Who hasn't used
before.
I don't want to say too much, and it's got possibly my favourite
closing line from Tom of any of his performances on TV or on audio
but I won't say what it is because I'll spoil it for you.
Are there any women in them?
There are.
Excellent.
And there is, there is, in fact, a very proactive female character
from the present, not from the future, but she plays a big part in
the plot and where the doctor and Leila gets separated, she sort
of becomes de facto companion, if you like.
So yeah, the foe from the future.
It in a box set along with Valley of Death.
It may even be on sale at the moment.
I'm not sure.
But yeah, check that out on the big Finnish website.
Well, I have 2 as well.
One is the podcast Down and Safe, which is a Blake 7 podcast where
4 people are watching Blake 7 all the way through in a sort of
crazy podcast concept.
They're from all sorts of different places like Canada and America
and so on.
There are women in it, so Hinchcliffe fans probably won't enjoy
it.
But it's really, really terrifically fun and I really enjoy it.
They're putting out an episode twice a week and you can find them
at downandsafe.com.
My 2nd one and I'm conscious that this is now going to be a few
weeks ago that this was released, but a few months ago, Brendan
and I appeared on the Trust Your Doctor podcast and since then
they've been speaking to other podcasts, Brendan.
Very, very hurt.
Yeah, it is.
It is heartbreaking.
So they teamed up with the guys from the Crinoid podcast and did
an episode on Revenge of the Cyberman.
And it's definitely worth a listen as well.
You can find the Trust Your Doctor podcast, which will have done a
few episodes since then at decorativevegetable.com.
Well, dear listeners, that is all the time we have for talented
Wayne Chayang for season 14 and for Philip Hinchcliffe.
Robert Holmes will be sticking around for a few more stories
though.
We will be back next week when we embark on Graham Williams' first
season in the role, season 15.
Now, Todd, you're going to be disappearing for about 6 weeks and
then joining us again for the key to time.
Oh, hooray.
Thank you, thank you.
I know, right?
So, Nathan, next season, you will be handling the horror of Fang
Rock. which is just tiresome.
I was like, I was going to say, hooray and digging yourself a hole
in underworld. excited about that.
Richard, if you're listening, you are doing the Invisible Enemy
and the Sunmakers, which leaves me with Image of the Fendal, and
possibly my favourite Gallifrey story, The Invasion of Time.
Todd, when you rejoin us for season 16, you will be piloting the
pirate planet.
Okay.
And the Armageddon factor.
We can't win them all.
Do I get Androids of Tara?
Meanwhile, Nathan, you get the stones of blood and power of
Kroll.
I like Power of Kroll.
I'm the only one Oh, I like it too.
Okay.
And that leaves me with Rybos operation and the Androids of Tara.
Which are the 2 best stories.
Are you sure you didn't rig the randomiser, Brandon?
Well, I did, you remember how Richard was allowed to have the
massacre because it was his favourite?
Android Atari is actually my favourite ever Doctor Who story.
Oh, good on you.
Yeah, so that was my that was my pick.
Until next week, dear listener.
Please find us on Facebook, Twitter, and iTunes.
And also, please share us with everyone you know and love, retweet
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I'm sure they'd enjoy that.
But until then, thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
I almost mentioned, uh, but the conversation went away from it.
Um, future, I'm aware no fan has gone before, when you were
talking about scientific explanations.
I don't know if you've seen this before.
Like a simple analogy.
Yeah, yeah.
It's got most of the cast of original Trek in it playing
themselves.
Except for James Dewan, who wouldn't do it.
So he's replaced by Welsh.
Welshy.
Well, she...
But there's a point where they're trying to get away from an
energy being and crisis.
If this were an episode of Star Trek, someone would come up with a
complicated solution that can be easily explained with a simple
analogy.
And Leila says, if we feed the ship's energy into the creature
it'll break down his matrix.
And Bryce says, like putting too much air in a balloon.
So as we've been making our way through next gen every time
Geordie does that, Rod and I just say, like putting too much air
in a balloon.
It's really good.
It has like an energy being kidnaps them and makes them be do a
like Star Trek convention.
And you've got George Decay saying, I've been to enough Star Trek
conventions, you know, I know how to spell Melvar.
Yes.
I didn't print enough script, so Walter and Walter and George will
have to share.
Yeah.
It's really good.
Another great science fiction show cancelled before it's time.
Again.