WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 15:58:54

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Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor

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Who podcast, who, thanks to the BBC makeup department, can't

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actually blink because of all this stuff on our faces.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I understand we all sound the same.

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We are heading back to the 1890s, both in terms of story setting

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and racial politics for the talents of Weng Chiang.

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I just want to talk about the elephant that is in the room.

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And that is John Bennett, as Leasing Chang.

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Taking a Caucasian man and putting yellow face on him for this

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serial.

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What the hell were they thinking?

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And I say this now, like, in 2015.

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I guess the thing is this, I look back at my childhood, and I

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didn't even realise, as a small child, that he was in Yellowface, I

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didn't, you know, and for many years, I didn't at all.

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And even when I did come to that realisation, probably in my late

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teens, like I was a bit slow on the uptake, I still didn't see it

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as being a problem.

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Now I see it has been quite a big problem.

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Personally, I'd love to know what John Bennett thought about doing

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this, what the Chinese members of the cast brought about this

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actually happening, what UK fans thought of it at the time.

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I mean, we know that the Canadians did not show this particular

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cereal.

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I'd love to know what Doctor Who fans who are non Caucasian

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actually think about this.

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I'd love to know what new who fans, who come to this show from the

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new series, actually think about this when they see it.

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I just find it really hard to sort of take myself away from that

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10 year old kid.

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I lived in a suburb here in Australia, at the time in the late

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1970s, where there weren't Chinese people.

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We had one Chinese restaurant.

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To go to McDonald's, you had to actually travel two suburbs away.

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You know, this is my world at the time.

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So I find it really hard to be completely outraged to the nth

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degree.

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I watch this now, and I go, what were they thinking?

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But then I sort of get over it.

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And I go, well, he's always been Lisa Chang to me.

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That's just him.

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And I think it's a great performance.

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And I just get on with it.

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But I can totally understand if people are completely utterly, you

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know, outraged.

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And I'd love to know.

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I mean, please, post some comments in the website.

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I really would like to know.

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You guys?

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Yeah, well, people really push back against the idea that the

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Doctor Who is racist, and it's because, you know, we love Doctor

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Who.

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It's part of our childhood.

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I, you know, talent of Wing Chang is a massively enjoyable and

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well made story.

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And so we don't want to think of it as being racist, and we've had

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conversations online since starting the podcast.

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You know, we identified celestial toy makers, racists, and we arc

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is racist, and I think they fairly, clearly are.

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But people don't want to admit it.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And we'll tie themselves in all sorts of interpretive knots to get

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away from it.

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And so you constantly hear, Oh, there weren't any Chinese people

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in 1976.

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And so they just had to slap some fake epicanthic folds on John

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Bennett and point him in the direction of the camera.

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And I just don't think that's good enough.

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Like, I don't believe that there wasn't a Chinese actor

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available.

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He looks ridiculous.

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I mean, he just looks ridiculous.

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And there are exactly your point, I think, is a really good one.

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There are Chinese cast members.

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Do you know what I mean, standing around him.

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What on earth must they be thinking?

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And I think the problem with the story, look, I mean, I do, at

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some point, want to get on to how great it is, and there are some

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really good things to say about it.

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The story is really, it's not just John Bennett, but it's the

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racism of the story.

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Like, in our intro, I said, I understand we all sound the same, but

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he actually says, I understand we all look the same.

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I mean, my goodness.

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Yeah, when in fact, Lisa and Chang, you don't look like any Asian

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person who has ever existed.

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And, you know, people say, well, that's him mocking the

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Europeans.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And people point out that Casey is a stereotype as well, you know

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he's a drunken, superstitious Irishman who's sort of cowardly and

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irrational and all of that sort of thing.

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And that Jago is a stereotype as well.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Yeah, I think a lightfoot to an extent.

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Yeah, yeah, he's kind of, you know, a bit like Dr. Watson or

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something like that.

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But, you know, those stereotypes who are us. you know what I

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mean?

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Who are white British people, like the members of the audience.

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They can't be as kind of negative as and cutting as the as the

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stereotypes of the other.

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And so people, people say, oh, you know, Chang's a very

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sympathetic character.

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He's very smart, you know, all of those sorts of things, and he

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plays on the stereotypes.

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And we see him being kind of racist.

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You know, when he performs on stage, um, He does that shockingly

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embarrassing accent with the R's and the L's, you know, uh, and he

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does the, ah, you know, one of us is yellow line and stuff like

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that.

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And all of that is sort of just butt clenchingly embarrassing

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now.

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But people say, well, you know, he's mocking the racism of the era

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and things.

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But I don't think it comes across like that at all.

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No, I mean, this is what people say, and there is something to be

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said for the character is a stage performer.

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He has a stage accent, which is more Chinese than more kind of

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stereotype Chinese than the actual accent.

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But the fact of the manner is, it's a white guy in makeup doing a

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Chinese accent.

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And so it just sort of falls flat.

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Yeah, exactly.

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So Chang's ironic asides, if you like. work on paper.

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If the character is being played by a Chinese actor, or if at the

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end of episode 5 when he dies, he reveals that as a character

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inside the show, he's a white guy wearing a mask.

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That would have been great.

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Oh, wow.

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The rat shoes off his his mask to reveal.

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That would have, you know, John Bennett.

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Hi.

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I'm John.

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Yeah, it's a bit like later on in Power of Kroll, where we have a

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really rubbish representation of Kroll, end of episode one, and it

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turns out it's a guy in a crap suit. to be a guy in a crap suit.

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Probably looks more convincing from the front.

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Yeah, exactly.

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You know.

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As far as it goes, if you like, I think John Bennett gives the

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best performance he can.

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But the whole concept is working against... an acceptable

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performance of the character.

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The character is racist.

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All this stuff about him being a sympathetic character.

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He's a sinister Chinaman who kind of lurks around the place

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abducting women from the streets and handing them over to his

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master to be murdered.

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Do you know what I mean?

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That's not that sympathetic, you know.

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So that's another problem I have with this story, is that all

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these women are being killed.

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Why does Gruel have to have young women?

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Why can't it just be anybody?

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Is it real?

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Oh, sorry.

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I'm getting a bit confused with the player once did.

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I'm bringing that up.

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We once did, I should say, sorry.

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Like, that's another plot point that I just think is just

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unbelievable that it's, you know, it's not equal opportunity death

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here.

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It's like, you know, it's only young women who are scantily clad

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that get murdered.

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And again, people say, well, you know, this is said in the

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Victorian era, and it's playing with Victorian era stereotypes, and

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it's a Jack, the re-analog and all of that, and English people

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were very racist about Chinese people in the 1890s, and stuff like

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that.

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But, you know, that's not really good enough.

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And, you know, let's take a look at the Crimson horror from just a

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couple of years ago in the new series.

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You know, it had strong female villain and female characters. and

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stuff and still played with all of those stereotypes, but without

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there are two speaking women, as usual, for a Hinchcliffe story.

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In fact, in fact, this is the big renaissance of feminism in the

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Hinchcliffe era where, for two stories in a row, we've had two

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speaking women parts.

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One of them is the ghoul who sees them pulling the body from the

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thing and says, oh, you wouldn't want that served up with onions.

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And then the other is a prostitute who gets, you know, kidnapped

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off the street by the sympathetic, Lisa and Chang, and then, oh

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she does escape, I think, doesn't she?

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She doesn't actually.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well Leila say...

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So the representation of women is just terrible and it's just not

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good enough, I think, to say, oh, we're just using these old

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stereotypes and we're not going to re-examine them.

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And it's Bob Holmes.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Bob Holmes is very lazy about that.

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And it's what gave us the all male cast of pyramids of Mars

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because he doesn't bother to re-examine, you know, those

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stereotypes and freshen them and do something more interesting

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with them.

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He's just content to fall back on them.

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You know, it's what gives us the racism in pyramids of Mars, you

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know, with all the superstitious, savage Egyptians, you know

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running away and being patronised by the white guy.

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And, and, you know, Shaw Holmes makes fun of colonialism and makes

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fun of those white guys.

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But what he doesn't do is a critique of colonialism and what he

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does is just unthinkingly repeat these stereotypes.

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It's not just Lisa and Chang either.

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Like the, all of our characters.

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All of the sympathetic characters from Lightfoot, to Jago, to the

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doctor, and Leila, all say things that we would regard as racist.

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Do you know what I mean?

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So there's, you know, Jago talks about the celestial Chang, we get

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you know, more Wongs for the tong from Jago.

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Lightfoot refers to the Chinese people as devils, you know, the

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doctor and Leila talk about little men, Leila calls Chang, the

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yellow one.

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And Sandra points this out, even when at the very end in episode 6

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where all of Greal's Chinese men come in to get the doctor.

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The doctor makes this joke, life's full of little surprises.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And at that point, he says, I'm not even going to bother working

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out whether that's deliberately racist or not, but the doctor

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calls them all little man in episode one.

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You know, like all of that stuff is just so it's just done so

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thoughtlessly.

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Yeah.

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Well, I think Nathan, just to sort of counterpoint that, you've

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had a previous script editor, I think, in Terrence Sticks, who

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probably was pretty much aware of that sort of thing.

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I mean, I think if we look at British television throughout the

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1970s.

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There is so much sexism and racism and sitcoms and Doctor Who

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actually comes across really quite well compared to all of those

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things.

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But Bob Holmes does not have the moral compass to be able to

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moderate himself as well as, I think, the previous script editor

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on this account.

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And I think that, but I think it's also really easy to apply where

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we are now with what we think is acceptable and not, like, to

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productions now, and you're talking about the crimson horror and

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how all that's done.

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Back in the 1970s, that's not the culture that's around.

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So I think it's much harder to be able to, and Doctor Who, on the

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most part, has been able to not be as racist.

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So here, yes, you've put up all these points about all this race

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and racism in all of these aspects.

248
00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.720
And I don't think all of those things are necessarily extremely

249
00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.639
racist, like in intent.

250
00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:07.080
I think some are much more than others.

251
00:12:07.139 --> 00:12:08.879
Like if you take a few in isolation.

252
00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:12.419
I think the intent is there to send it up, but then as they add up

253
00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:15.779
that intent diminishes and so it comes across much more racism

254
00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:16.500
than what it actually is.

255
00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:20.399
If you look at if you look at Marco Polo, for instance, you know

256
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:20.820
what I mean?

257
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.580
Like, again, there's lots of sort of characters in Yellowface, and

258
00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:26.399
it does seem a bit less offensive in black and white for some

259
00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:28.379
reason, but you've got Zenia Merton and stuff.

260
00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:32.279
And there's a sort of sympathetic portrayal of a whole range of

261
00:12:32.279 --> 00:12:33.120
different characters.

262
00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:39.659
I think the guy in Mind of Evil, the Chinese delegate is great.

263
00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:41.399
And he's treated very well.

264
00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:42.779
There are some slightly.

265
00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:45.840
There's only one Chinese woman in London in that story, obviously.

266
00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.600
But, you know, otherwise that's sort of pretty good.

267
00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:55.139
I think the story in Tibet, abominable snowmen, again, do you know

268
00:12:55.139 --> 00:12:55.620
what I mean?

269
00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:58.139
Like, yeah, it's a bit collectable. despite the fact they're all

270
00:12:58.139 --> 00:12:59.940
sort of white guys, and most of them are Welsh.

271
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.340
You know, it's still a sympathetic portrayal.

272
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.639
Well, it's slightly dodgy by modern characteristics, but it's

273
00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.940
certainly streets ahead of talents of weighing Cheyangg.

274
00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:10.259
So I think you're right.

275
00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:13.860
I think that Holmes, it is possible for Doctor Who, even in the

276
00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:16.679
70s not to be as racist as this.

277
00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:18.240
Do you know what I mean?

278
00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:23.100
So even comparing it against earlier shows, I think it comes off

279
00:13:23.100 --> 00:13:23.399
worse.

280
00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:24.779
Yes, no, I do agree.

281
00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:30.899
Something that's interesting then is some modern reappraisal.

282
00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.519
So, of course, we mentioned earlier at the time, um, TV, Ontario

283
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:40.139
uh, just didn't show talent to Wing Chang, and a lot of Canadian

284
00:13:40.139 --> 00:13:44.519
TV stations, didn't show it after a complaint from Canadian

285
00:13:44.519 --> 00:13:46.440
Chinese and Asian groups.

286
00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:51.120
Now, if we look back to the 90s, one of the sort of seminal Doctor

287
00:13:51.120 --> 00:13:54.480
Who research works that came out was the discontinuity guide by

288
00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.000
Paul Cornell, Martin Day, and Keith Topping.

289
00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:01.080
Here's what they have to say about racism and talent of Wang

290
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:01.440
Chiang.

291
00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:05.100
One of the great moments of Doctor Who history, an effortless

292
00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:08.700
conquering of the pseudo historical genre with a peerless script.

293
00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:12.659
The story features another classic Robert Holmes double act, the

294
00:14:12.659 --> 00:14:16.320
theatrical Henry Jago and Professor Lightfoot, although they don't

295
00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:17.759
actually meet until episode five.

296
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:21.960
Spending the previous episodes taking turns at playing Watson All

297
00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:23.340
Estrade to the doctor's Sherlock.

298
00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.100
Oh, wait, they don't mention it.

299
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:31.379
Meanwhile, 10 years later, in Doctor of the Telecomvision

300
00:14:31.379 --> 00:14:32.700
companion by David J.

301
00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:35.879
Howe, it's the characters that really make the talons of Wayne

302
00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:36.779
Chiang shine.

303
00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:40.679
John Bennett is faultless as the inscrutable Lisa Chang.

304
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:45.120
And his performance and makeup are so convincing that it's

305
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:47.700
difficult to believe he is not actually Chinese.

306
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.279
It really isn't that difficult.

307
00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.440
Maybe he hasn't met any Chinese people.

308
00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:54.840
I have a great deal of respect for David J.

309
00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.639
Howard, but yeah, I think he's never met a Chinese.

310
00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.440
And my 10 year old self would have agreed with her.

311
00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:00.720
Yeah, not my 40 year old self.

312
00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:01.259
Exactly.

313
00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:04.500
You know, and I think if people are going to talk about this story

314
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:08.039
honestly, they have to acknowledge that there was a time where

315
00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:09.419
they didn't see a problem with it.

316
00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.639
And that's my perspective.

317
00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:13.620
There was a time when I never saw a problem.

318
00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.820
And for many, many, many years.

319
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.320
You're younger than us.

320
00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:18.539
Were your experiences any different?

321
00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.679
Well, I was just going to say that when I when I was at primary

322
00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:27.960
school, I had a lot of friends who were Chinese or Vietnamese or

323
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.019
Japanese from various parts of Asia originally.

324
00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:40.980
And I don't think my young self saw a white man in yellow face, you

325
00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:41.159
know?

326
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.899
It wasn't until, as with Utah, it wasn't until I got older. that I

327
00:15:45.899 --> 00:15:50.220
saw, you know, that it was, a white man in makeup.

328
00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.320
But I still wasn't necessarily outrage.

329
00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:55.320
I mean, we had about one Chinese family in the entire school when

330
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:56.519
I was...

331
00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:58.379
I'm not...

332
00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:03.000
I'm not outraged, but I'm uncomfortable with it and I'm

333
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.860
uncomfortable with it for the sake of, you know what?

334
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:10.019
When people think of Asian actors in the UK, in the 60s and 70s.

335
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.580
They immediately think Bert Klock.

336
00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:13.019
Who will be in Doctor Who?

337
00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:14.100
Who will be in Doctor Who?

338
00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:16.080
and was active at this time.

339
00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:19.559
And, you know, if people come back and say, oh, maybe he wasn't

340
00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:19.860
available.

341
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:21.120
Okay, maybe he wasn't available.

342
00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:22.919
But he's not Captain Chin Li.

343
00:16:22.980 --> 00:16:25.139
He's not the only Chinese person in London.

344
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:26.039
You know.

345
00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:30.840
There's got to have been someone who was actually Chinese or even

346
00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:36.120
Japanese or Korean or Vietnamese, an actual Asian actor they could

347
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:40.019
have got in there because another racial controversy recently was

348
00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:44.159
the casting of John Cho as Sulu in the Star Trek films because

349
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.120
he's not Japanese.

350
00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:48.419
But when George Decay, the original Sulu was asked about it, George

351
00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:50.940
Decay said, I have no problem with him playing a Japanese

352
00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:54.840
character, because Sulu does not represent Japan.

353
00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:57.659
Sulu represents the whole of Asia.

354
00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:58.200
Yeah, yeah.

355
00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.860
And no one from Asia was on television when Sulu came about.

356
00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.259
And he's like, I've got no problem with anyone from Asia playing

357
00:17:04.259 --> 00:17:04.740
Sulu.

358
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.140
Yeah, well, I mean, if they could face John Bennett with some

359
00:17:07.140 --> 00:17:08.400
latex eyebrows.

360
00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:09.240
Do you know what I mean?

361
00:17:09.299 --> 00:17:12.119
Like, I'm sure that no one would have been home thinking, I think

362
00:17:12.119 --> 00:17:13.859
he might actually come from Japan.

363
00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:17.640
Look, I'm really glad that we've had this discussion about this

364
00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.819
and I hope that it makes the listeners out there think about

365
00:17:20.819 --> 00:17:21.000
things.

366
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.279
Or switch off, probably.

367
00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:27.059
Well, either way, but you know, just during their sacred cow.

368
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:30.839
But I really would be interested to actually read some more

369
00:17:30.839 --> 00:17:32.519
feedback from other people on.

370
00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:33.000
I really would.

371
00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:36.779
I'd love to now talk about some of the positives in this story.

372
00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.359
Yeah, we do we do have another 10 minutes we can do.

373
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:40.740
I think we really should.

374
00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:42.119
I want to go with Jago and Lightfoot.

375
00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:45.599
In particular, Lightfoot, who I just adore as a character, and his

376
00:17:45.599 --> 00:17:49.200
reactions with Leila, especially when she's eating, are just

377
00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:49.559
wonderful.

378
00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:50.819
I just love him as a kid.

379
00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:54.720
I just, you know, he was this doctor professor who, well, he just

380
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:56.579
is this gentleman, and I just really, really liked him.

381
00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:00.660
Jago, on the other hand, I could have just, like, killed within

382
00:18:00.660 --> 00:18:02.880
the first 10 minutes of the story.

383
00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:06.900
One of these buffoons that I just loathe in Doctor Who, like the

384
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.859
pirate captain and, no, no, no, just perfect for performances, I

385
00:18:10.859 --> 00:18:12.420
really don't like them to begin with.

386
00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:17.160
But by episode five, when he admits that he's afraid, that's when

387
00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:18.480
I really love the character.

388
00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:23.279
And then going back and watching it again, like, you know, I still

389
00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:25.319
like the 1st few episodes, it's like, 0 my goodness.

390
00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:27.539
But I just love him by the end.

391
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.000
Holmes is brilliant dialogue as well.

392
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:30.660
Do you know what I mean?

393
00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.279
Everything he says is so funny.

394
00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:36.299
I think he's terrific, and the 2 of them are amazing, and Cornell

395
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:39.420
they and topping, say, it's always a surprise to see them not

396
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:42.000
actually meet until midway through episode five.

397
00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:45.359
Yeah, because you feel like they're together for the whole story.

398
00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:48.480
And of course, when they do meet, it's this whole British class

399
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.440
system happening again because Lightfoot happens to be cleaning

400
00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:53.400
something at the time.

401
00:18:53.460 --> 00:18:57.599
He must be a butler and therefore must be spoken down to and get

402
00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.660
me your master, et cetera, et cetera.

403
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.339
It's completely understandable how, uh, Christopher Benjamin and

404
00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:10.259
Trevor Baxter are still playing the characters to this day in big

405
00:19:10.259 --> 00:19:10.799
finish.

406
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:14.099
And of course, we we're soon to have Jago and Lightfoot and

407
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:14.579
Strax.

408
00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:16.859
Which is going to be insane.

409
00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:18.660
It's a combination of the script.

410
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.859
And really, the 2 actors giving it their all as well.

411
00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.039
You know, they create these perfectly rounded characters and they

412
00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.119
have that nuanced, like you mentioned, told of Jago admitting his

413
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.279
fear at the end there.

414
00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:33.119
And that scene.

415
00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:37.740
It's kind of a replay of a scene we discussed in Planet of the

416
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:41.160
Daleks, you know, courage isn't a matter of not being scared, it's

417
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:42.660
being scared and doing what you have to do anyway.

418
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.799
But it doesn't have the Terry Nation sledgehammer approach.

419
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:50.220
You know, in that scene, you had pertly sort of dictating what

420
00:19:50.220 --> 00:19:50.940
courage was.

421
00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:55.859
This is Jago and Lightfoot discussing and coming to a conclusion

422
00:19:55.859 --> 00:19:59.819
together on what courage is and more so what fear is.

423
00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.000
And it's a real defining moment for the 2 of them.

424
00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:04.200
Speaking of fear.

425
00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:09.599
As a child, I was absolutely, absolutely mortified by Mr. Sin.

426
00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:11.759
Like, I was terrified, terrified.

427
00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:12.720
I had nightmares.

428
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.579
I think it's a fantastic performance.

429
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.859
It's a terrific character too, isn't it?

430
00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:21.240
Just the way he goes out of control in episode seeks and virtually

431
00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:25.079
just kills Greel, you know, and the laugh and all of that sort of

432
00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:25.319
thing.

433
00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:26.519
It's really really great.

434
00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:31.500
And just the whole look of the doll and everything, even the

435
00:20:31.500 --> 00:20:36.599
dialogue between him and Chang on stage is terrifically funny.

436
00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:38.099
Like I think he's great.

437
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.480
I think the production here is just spectacular.

438
00:20:42.539 --> 00:20:45.900
And it's something, you know, the BBC, we've said it before, can

439
00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:50.220
do period stuff, the Victorian stuff, it can do really well, but

440
00:20:50.220 --> 00:20:52.200
they're just throwing stacks of money at it.

441
00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:55.740
So they've got some great locations on film.

442
00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:00.119
They've got night shoots, you know, like they've got OB stuff, you

443
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:01.259
know, like...

444
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.660
Yep, the stuff in the theatre on videotape.

445
00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:07.019
Lightfoot, some laboratories on videotape, you know, in a

446
00:21:07.019 --> 00:21:07.440
location.

447
00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:11.279
There's stuff outdoors, I think, that's on OB cameras well.

448
00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:15.059
So the whole thing is really lavish and really expensive.

449
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.319
Lots of shooting at night.

450
00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:18.240
It's really, really atmospheric.

451
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:21.299
Like, the story goes that Hinchcliffe knew that he was going and

452
00:21:21.299 --> 00:21:23.400
just thought we'll spend next year's budget as well.

453
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:26.640
I mean, you're watching Invisible Enemy next year.

454
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:27.420
You'll know why.

455
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.519
I even like the haystack.

456
00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:31.500
I like stack.

457
00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:31.740
Yeah.

458
00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:32.700
So do we know this story?

459
00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:35.759
Someone didn't move their card before shooting.

460
00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:39.000
And so they're stuck with the location that they want to shoot in

461
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.680
and there's a car in the middle of it.

462
00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:42.420
So they just cover it with hay.

463
00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:43.440
Yeah, yeah.

464
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:45.059
They put a tarpaulin over it first.

465
00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.400
So you can get hay in the gear ship.

466
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:48.539
They shouldn't have done that.

467
00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.900
Just coming back to something you were saying earlier, all that

468
00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:54.900
work in the theatre and the chase sequence in the theatre.

469
00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:55.799
It's Walsh Watch.

470
00:21:55.859 --> 00:21:57.180
Oh, is it?

471
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:00.240
We've got Terry doubling for Tom in some of that, like the swing

472
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:01.079
over and whatnot.

473
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:04.680
Terry and Stuart fell, doubling for Tom and Michael Spice, the

474
00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:05.700
lesser known Spice Girl.

475
00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.720
He was Morbius, of course last year.

476
00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:10.500
Yes, he was.

477
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.460
That also made me think of another favourite moment I have for

478
00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:15.000
Lightfoot.

479
00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:17.579
It's when Leila comes down in her new dress after she's been

480
00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:20.700
through her ordeal in the sewers and we'll get onto the giant rat

481
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:21.059
in a moment.

482
00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:22.980
No, no, can we get onto the dress in a moment?

483
00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:23.880
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

484
00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:28.140
But she comes down in this dress and Trevor Baxter's reaction as

485
00:22:28.140 --> 00:22:29.460
Lightfoot.

486
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:33.960
There have been many allegations and suggestions that Leila was

487
00:22:33.960 --> 00:22:36.059
brought in to boost the show sex appeal.

488
00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:40.740
So it would be very easy for Trevor Baxter to play that scene as

489
00:22:40.740 --> 00:22:43.680
an older man in lust after a younger woman.

490
00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:46.079
But that is not how the scene comes across.

491
00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:47.880
He looks like a proud father.

492
00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:51.839
Don't you think it's like Henry Higgins and Colonel PJ going off

493
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:54.420
arm in arm to buy a lovely dress for...

494
00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:55.380
Oh, absolutely.

495
00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.160
And I've seen Rupert Everett as Henry Higgins.

496
00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:01.380
So yeah, that's definitely happening there.

497
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.680
So Nathan, you wanted to talk about Leila and the Rat.

498
00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:07.079
Well, I want to talk about the dress. you know what I mean?

499
00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:09.960
And like we've had dress or the dress that she's wearing when

500
00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:11.039
she's menaced by the right.

501
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.720
Well, we'll talk about it'll all come up.

502
00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:13.859
It's all one big thing.

503
00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:15.720
It's all very frock.

504
00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:19.259
We've seen we've seen 8 episodes where Leila's written by Chris

505
00:23:19.259 --> 00:23:22.980
Belcher and he writes her as someone who's intelligent, as we said

506
00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:25.500
but instinctual, do you know what I mean?

507
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.380
Who quickly grasps things the doctor tells her?

508
00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:30.359
and is smart and intelligent.

509
00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:34.380
She dismisses the doctor's explanation of the Tartas as, you know

510
00:23:34.380 --> 00:23:37.200
dimensional transcendental illness.

511
00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:38.940
I meant to say that.

512
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.680
Do you know what I mean?

513
00:23:40.859 --> 00:23:41.339
As silly.

514
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:42.779
You know, she's not stupid at all.

515
00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:47.519
But in this story, I think she's completely defanged, and she's

516
00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.900
written as an idiot, and she's also written as a purely peril

517
00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:52.440
monkey.

518
00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.000
Do you know what I mean, as someone in peril?

519
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:58.319
And so we see her, racing through the sewers in her transparent

520
00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:59.279
undies.

521
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:01.019
Dewey see some nipple there, Todd?

522
00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:02.339
Possibly.

523
00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.119
Yes.

524
00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:06.240
She screams when the tongue attack her.

525
00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:07.079
Do you know what I mean?

526
00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:09.119
She's really fairly useless in that scene.

527
00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:14.700
All of the stuff about her not understanding Victorian morals and

528
00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:16.079
etiquette and stuff.

529
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.619
Maybe with the exception of the really good conversation about tea

530
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:24.539
in episode six, is her being kind of stupid and slow on the

531
00:24:24.539 --> 00:24:25.019
uptake.

532
00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:30.960
And just the pride with which she shows off her new dress.

533
00:24:31.019 --> 00:24:32.099
Do you know what I mean?

534
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.680
Like, she's just turned into such a girly girl.

535
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:40.259
And it just enrages me that she's so defanged in this story by

536
00:24:40.259 --> 00:24:40.740
Holmes.

537
00:24:40.859 --> 00:24:42.839
I'm sorry, I can't agree at all.

538
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:46.140
OK, yes, when she's attacked by the tong.

539
00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:48.480
She screams, because there's six of them.

540
00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:49.500
You know?

541
00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:51.059
She's Leila, do you know what I mean?

542
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.839
Well, exactly.

543
00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:55.559
Later on, she's killing people with Janus thorns because they're

544
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:56.519
trying to attack the doctor.

545
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.839
The whole reason she gets captured by Lisa and Chang is because

546
00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:03.539
she saved someone else to put herself in danger.

547
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:08.460
The stuff about the Victorian etiquette is sending up Victorian

548
00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:12.119
etiquette, like when she picks up the bone to eat and starts

549
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:14.460
eating with her hand. standing up Victorian etiquette because we

550
00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:15.240
have the same things.

551
00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:16.380
Do you know what I mean?

552
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:18.900
We eat with knives and forks and you don't pick the food up out of

553
00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:19.319
your thing.

554
00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:24.660
And in fact, Lightfoot comes over, comes across as a gentleman, you

555
00:25:24.660 --> 00:25:26.279
know, confronted by an idiot.

556
00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:27.299
Do you know what I mean?

557
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:28.799
And he's being very lovely about it.

558
00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:30.420
But here's the thing, right?

559
00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:34.559
In our modern culture, we might say to someone, oh, no, you know

560
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:36.420
it's much better if you eat with a knife and fork.

561
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:40.380
The reason that Lightfoot starts eating with his hands as well is

562
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:43.740
in Victorian culture, you would not embarrass your guest.

563
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.019
You would not point out a faux pas.

564
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:47.220
You wouldn't invite them round again.

565
00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:48.240
That's what you do.

566
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:51.539
But he would not embarrass them by pointing out where they got it

567
00:25:51.539 --> 00:25:51.720
wrong.

568
00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:52.559
And that's stupid.

569
00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:56.160
He does step in when she goes to wipe her face on the tablecloth.

570
00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:57.779
And she's wrestling.

571
00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.519
The thing is, she doesn't mind that.

572
00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:01.740
She goes, oh, okay, that's the proper thing to do.

573
00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:06.000
Whereas if he'd done that before and said, oh, if you use this

574
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.920
Leila adapts to situation she's in and she does kind of respond to

575
00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:12.539
that kind of feedback of, oh, this is what you do.

576
00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:14.039
And that's what I think the dress is about.

577
00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:17.819
I don't think she is necessarily proud of the dress, but look at

578
00:26:17.819 --> 00:26:18.119
her face.

579
00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:19.079
It's embarrassing.

580
00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:26.339
Because the professor has shown her kindness and hospitality, and

581
00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:30.420
it shows that even though she is not cultured in the sense of the

582
00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:31.380
Victorian era.

583
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:35.039
She is cultured in a way that you show gratitude to people who

584
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:36.000
have shown you kindness.

585
00:26:36.059 --> 00:26:40.019
So I still think she is a very strong character in this because

586
00:26:40.019 --> 00:26:43.740
she's arriving at the same conclusions as everyone else, but

587
00:26:43.740 --> 00:26:44.759
through a different method.

588
00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:47.640
And when the doctor's explaining the science of like the zigma

589
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:51.420
beam, you know, she does the Futurama thing of putting too much

590
00:26:51.420 --> 00:26:52.140
air in a balloon.

591
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:54.660
You mean there's a hole in the water bag and the hole is getting

592
00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:55.079
bigger.

593
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:57.240
She completely understands the science 1st thing.

594
00:26:57.299 --> 00:27:02.700
See, the dress is a picture for me of someone who is getting male

595
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:05.940
approval for being a proper girly for the 1st time and really

596
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:06.900
enjoying that.

597
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:12.960
And so it just sees her put in a proper feminine box where Holmes

598
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.599
wants her, it does set my teeth on edge.

599
00:27:15.660 --> 00:27:16.200
I'm afraid.

600
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:20.519
I'm not as outraged as you, Nathan, on these matters.

601
00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:21.900
I probably are somewhere in between.

602
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:24.720
I can see both points of view. the whole screaming from the rat

603
00:27:24.720 --> 00:27:27.660
and that sequence, which I think really defangs her, but the other

604
00:27:27.660 --> 00:27:30.240
stuff, I actually think that she's quite natural in that and I

605
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:31.440
don't really have a problem with it.

606
00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:34.920
No, I think she's better spoiler alert next week in horror of Hang

607
00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:35.339
Rock.

608
00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:36.000
Do you know what I mean?

609
00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:39.299
I think she's a lot better and she is given a girly counterpoint.

610
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.140
Do you know what I mean?

611
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:41.339
Whom she can be better than.

612
00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.900
But there is a tendency, I think, in the following season to shed

613
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:48.779
the boucher characterisation and just writer as an idiot.

614
00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:50.819
Now, we've mentioned the rat.

615
00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.500
It's so bad.

616
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:54.420
That scene.

617
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:57.839
That 1st scene when you see it and it's a tiny rat crawling

618
00:27:57.839 --> 00:28:02.460
through like a toilet roll representation of the sewer tunnel.

619
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.980
I like the way it sort of bounces along.

620
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:09.240
It's impossible to tell that the actual miniature rat inside the

621
00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.000
miniature tunnel that that's supposed to be a giant rat.

622
00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:12.960
Like you can't tell.

623
00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:14.460
Yeah, yeah, it's not from below.

624
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:15.960
No sense of scale.

625
00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:17.400
I just thought it was one of the rats in the sewer.

626
00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.380
No, it's meant to be the giant rats.

627
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.059
You see, that's how poor it is.

628
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.180
And then the other one, which looks like it's just come fresh from

629
00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.539
a rat hair salon. you know what I mean?

630
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:31.200
So it's, you know, and I'm sure that someone else pointed this out

631
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:34.319
you know, I'm not the 1st to say this, but its hair just looks

632
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:35.160
like nylon.

633
00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:35.880
Do you know what I mean?

634
00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:39.359
And like, its teeth look like basil brushes, front teeth.

635
00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:43.200
It doesn't look remotely and the way that it, the way that it

636
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:45.599
bounces up and down is just absurd.

637
00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:49.319
And we do see this with Holmes, where Holmes is much more

638
00:28:49.319 --> 00:28:51.900
interested in writing about people, and that's a good thing.

639
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.559
Do you know what I mean?

640
00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:55.740
And so in Power of Kroll, there's one big monster.

641
00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.359
In Rebus operation, Rebus operation, there's the Shrivenzal.

642
00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:02.940
In case of Anjazani, there's the magma creature.

643
00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:06.420
You know, he'll very frequently just throw in, even Carnival of

644
00:29:06.420 --> 00:29:09.720
Monsters has, you know, drashings and stuff, but essentially, the

645
00:29:09.720 --> 00:29:12.720
idea is he'll throw in a monster just to blockade us because it's

646
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:13.319
Doctor Who.

647
00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:15.539
But essentially he's more interested in people.

648
00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.099
And that's good, that's laudable.

649
00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:17.819
You know what I mean?

650
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.640
But I just sort of wonder what the rat's there for.

651
00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:24.059
It would so easily, the story would have coped without the rat

652
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:24.720
right.

653
00:29:24.779 --> 00:29:28.319
What do we think of Michael Spice's performance as Bent Face?

654
00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:33.539
Sometimes I think he's a bit over the top, but he does have quiet

655
00:29:33.539 --> 00:29:34.500
moments as well.

656
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:40.140
That moment in, is the episode 5 or 6 where he actually has his

657
00:29:40.140 --> 00:29:43.019
1st meeting with the doctor and they sit down at Lightfoot's table

658
00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:45.660
and talk about the situation.

659
00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.079
Is it the one where the doctor looks up and suddenly notices that

660
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:49.680
he's there?

661
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:50.880
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

662
00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:51.960
He's talking to Leila.

663
00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:55.140
He sits down and he looks up and it's Greal sitting next to him.

664
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.420
And that conversation is great. isn't it?

665
00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:57.839
Yeah, yeah.

666
00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.000
I think that's a I think that's a wonderful conversation.

667
00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:04.980
But then you get seems like, full, a time agent, what does ask

668
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:06.299
such questions or whatever it is?

669
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:09.359
It's the usual thing that Holmes does where the villains call

670
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:10.920
everyone really rude.

671
00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:12.240
Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.

672
00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:13.380
I just have to wait.

673
00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:16.980
Let the talons of Wang Chi-ang.

674
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:21.180
And I just can't watch that anymore without bursting into laughter

675
00:30:21.180 --> 00:30:22.259
because many years ago.

676
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:27.180
Many years ago, Nathan and I were involved in a little Doctor Who

677
00:30:27.180 --> 00:30:28.859
play for a convention here in Sydney.

678
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.700
And, um, A good friend of ours, Simon Moore.

679
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:33.480
Friend of the podcast?

680
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.720
Friend of the podcast, Simon Moore, portrayed Mangus Grill.

681
00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:39.720
And the way he delivered that line, I never really registered at

682
00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:42.299
the time that that's the way it was delivered in the show.

683
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:46.079
And so I just, I now watch this, this show and there's just so

684
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:50.460
much stuff that, um, Simon was doing and that friend of the

685
00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:53.700
podcast, Peter Griffiths, who wrote the script, like just sends up

686
00:30:53.700 --> 00:30:57.480
and just twists the lines and I just sit there laughing my head

687
00:30:57.480 --> 00:30:59.279
off when I know that I shouldn't be.

688
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:04.680
I will also just point out that that play, which was called

689
00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.140
There's Something about Magnus, the guy who drained me.

690
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.460
That play is superior to this story in at least one respect.

691
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.460
I think we had an actual Chinese person in it.

692
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.059
There was an actual Asian actor playing Lisa and Chang.

693
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:21.720
And I do recall there was a wonderful moment where you had Simon

694
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.500
as Magnus Greel, and I never knew the man.

695
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:30.059
Anthony Yee, Anthony Yee, as Lisa and Chang.

696
00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:32.460
Grill is giving him a telling off.

697
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:33.599
Like, you're fool!

698
00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:37.740
You don't, you, you, you, and Cheng just inscrutable Asian

699
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:38.339
stereotype.

700
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.859
You inscrutable Asian stereotype.

701
00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.700
And I remember that, I think, got one.

702
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:45.720
The 2nd biggest laugh.

703
00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:48.180
I think the 1st biggest laugh was Sylvester McCoy playing Joe

704
00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:48.660
Grant.

705
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:50.160
My God, the things we did.

706
00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:51.779
Here's Joe Grant.

707
00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:55.799
And then, of course, the lovely Nicola Bryant says, well, the

708
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.319
ultimate manga squeal.

709
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:01.980
And I do remember the next day, Casey wasn't at the convention

710
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:02.339
that day.

711
00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:05.640
She was at the convention the 2nd day. and found out they did a

712
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:06.960
play and she turned...

713
00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:07.980
Oh, you did a play.

714
00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:09.359
Were you in it, Sylvester?

715
00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:10.380
Oh yes, I was you, darling.

716
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.299
Oh, haven't we all been, darling?

717
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:14.880
Oh, God, they were good sports.

718
00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:18.720
So, the legacy of...

719
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.220
Holmes Hinchcliffe.

720
00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:20.579
Here we are.

721
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.680
Yeah, this is good, yeah.

722
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:27.420
Now, I just want to say this. 21 episodes of this season. in the

723
00:32:27.420 --> 00:32:31.740
top 25 shows of the week, which is, you know, a significant

724
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:32.579
uptick.

725
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.640
Over the last few years, it's been building.

726
00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:38.519
I think there's like 13 episodes of previous 2 years.

727
00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:41.759
And even in John's last season, I think there's 12 episodes that

728
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:42.599
are in the top 25.

729
00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:47.880
And so really since season 10, Doctor Who has been moving from top

730
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.380
30, top 25, and this year, you know, into, you know, the top 20

731
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:53.339
even more so.

732
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:54.599
But it's all about to change.

733
00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:57.660
Tom's only had one episode outside the top 50.

734
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:01.680
Only 10 of his episodes over these 3 seasons are, in fact, outside

735
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:02.279
the top 30.

736
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:03.000
Right.

737
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.839
Starting from next year, there are only 16 more episodes of Doctor

738
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:08.519
Who that are inside the top 30.

739
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:09.480
Like ever.

740
00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:10.140
Like ever.

741
00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:17.220
Wow. 15 of those are up to the end of the Graham Williams era, in

742
00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:18.119
the Horns of Nine.

743
00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:22.259
And only the Horns that I'm in part four, and episode one of Time

744
00:33:22.259 --> 00:33:22.920
Flight.

745
00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.420
For the 1980s, they're only two episodes that are in the top 30.

746
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.500
Goodness.

747
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:33.420
And the only episode remaining, that the Rock 2 makes the top 20

748
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:35.039
is City of Death, Episode 4.

749
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.440
Because the other side was on strike.

750
00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:38.759
Well, if that's true.

751
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:40.980
But there's a significant shift.

752
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:45.900
Next year, for the first time, since season seven, there is not a

753
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:47.940
single episode of Doctor Who inside the top 20.

754
00:33:48.180 --> 00:33:48.839
Wow.

755
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:52.559
There's only two episodes, of The Horror of Frame Rock, that make

756
00:33:52.559 --> 00:33:55.319
it to number 23, and nothing else in the top 25.

757
00:33:55.440 --> 00:34:00.779
So there's a significant shift, in Doctor Who's Audience, starting

758
00:34:00.779 --> 00:34:02.039
from the beginning of next season.

759
00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:06.539
And this is before people know about Graham Williams, or lack of

760
00:34:06.539 --> 00:34:10.199
budgets, or robot dogs, or whatever you want to say.

761
00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:14.639
But there's a change, and people will choose after this story, not

762
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:17.159
to come back and watch the show in the same numbers.

763
00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:20.340
Now, I'm being very dramatic over the next three years, there's

764
00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:23.099
still many episodes of Doctor Who between 30 and 50th, and in

765
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:24.300
Davidson's first year, as well.

766
00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:27.960
But what was once building and building and building, which really

767
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:32.940
started in the second half of John Pertwee's second series, with

768
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:35.460
the show shifted into the top 30 for the first time in a long time

769
00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:39.719
it suddenly moving back out of the top 2025.

770
00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:44.760
Is this the legacy of the Holmes Hinchcliffe era, and why is that

771
00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:45.239
the case?

772
00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:47.039
Now we've discussed things, you know?

773
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:52.079
previously about characterisation, Sarah, for example, becoming

774
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.760
less real, that audience identification?

775
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:54.300
Is it that?

776
00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:58.980
You know, it is this thing where it takes a while, you know what I

777
00:34:58.980 --> 00:34:59.159
mean?

778
00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:03.179
Like, it's not, people decided not to tune into the invisible

779
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:04.800
enemy, because they thought it would be terrible.

780
00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:05.699
Do you know what I mean?

781
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.340
It has to be a response to previous things.

782
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.119
That's right.

783
00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:13.679
Like, I think people rightly regard the Hinchcliffe era as a high

784
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:18.840
point for the show, just because of the look of it and, you know

785
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:19.980
the writing and stuff.

786
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:21.059
It is really effective.

787
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:24.719
So I don't know that I want to lay... certainly the stuff in the

788
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:28.260
80s, you know, there's no way that that's directly a result of

789
00:35:28.260 --> 00:35:30.539
people switching off during Hingcliffe, you know, I think the

790
00:35:30.539 --> 00:35:31.260
80s.

791
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:34.980
Oh, no, no, but what I'm saying is that there is a change. right?

792
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.619
It's not must see TV for all of that audience anymore.

793
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:42.179
Well, Santa for, um, in his entry on the invisible enemy talks

794
00:35:42.179 --> 00:35:46.800
about really the slow slide cancellation that sort of kicks in

795
00:35:46.800 --> 00:35:46.980
there.

796
00:35:47.099 --> 00:35:51.539
And part of it is Inchcliffe's fault, you know, in that the show

797
00:35:51.539 --> 00:35:55.500
is excessively violent and comes under much greater scrutiny.

798
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:57.360
Some of it's the fault of the economy.

799
00:35:57.420 --> 00:35:58.260
Do you know what I mean?

800
00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:00.780
Oh, well, Hinchcliffe's fault in that he spends all the money on

801
00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:04.440
towns of Wayne Cheyang, and leaves Williams with a reduced budget

802
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:06.179
but some of it's economical.

803
00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:06.840
Do you know what I mean?

804
00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:10.260
That there's massive inflation and the money doesn't go very far.

805
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.739
And so suddenly Doctor Who starts to look really ropey.

806
00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:18.420
But I mean, on the counterpoint, you know, episode 4 of Underworld

807
00:36:18.420 --> 00:36:21.900
which we know is not very good.

808
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:25.679
In terms of money wise. is the highest rated episode next season

809
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:26.579
in terms of viewers.

810
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:30.000
Like there's no logic necessarily logical reason.

811
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:31.800
And so I'm hoping that's something that you guys will explore

812
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:36.539
during, you know, next year and and, and, you know, reflecting on

813
00:36:36.539 --> 00:36:40.079
where we've been with homes in Hinchcliffe and where homes and

814
00:36:40.079 --> 00:36:41.340
where homes will go.

815
00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:42.539
I think it's a good point.

816
00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.000
I think we are entering a sort of long death march now.

817
00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:45.840
Do you know what I mean?

818
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.340
Like, I'll be saying tiresome a lot more often, I think, probably

819
00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:51.300
from here on in.

820
00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:54.000
I lay the blame on something very simple.

821
00:36:54.539 --> 00:36:56.219
Star Wars.

822
00:36:56.519 --> 00:37:03.420
And Graham Williams and I think Anthony Reid and Tom Baker went to

823
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:07.860
see Star Wars and came out and essentially said, oh, 4 letter

824
00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:08.219
word.

825
00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.320
We're screwed. pretty much.

826
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:11.039
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

827
00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:15.960
Because this is now the 1st time that people can find their sci-fi

828
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:18.300
heroes on the big screen.

829
00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:22.800
Yeah. and have a new avenue, whereas Doctor Who has been that

830
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:27.840
conduit for cult sort of television superhero sort of thing in

831
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:28.320
Britain.

832
00:37:28.380 --> 00:37:30.420
And now there's going to be a shift.

833
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.019
Yeah.

834
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.519
Sorry, that's a bit of a downer.

835
00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:37.380
I didn't want it to be like that, but I just wanted to bring up

836
00:37:37.380 --> 00:37:38.880
that there was...

837
00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:41.519
We've had this super success and this season has been

838
00:37:41.519 --> 00:37:42.119
extraordinary.

839
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:45.059
Not one episode outside the top 40 for the whole season.

840
00:37:45.179 --> 00:37:46.260
Right.

841
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:52.619
So on that note of a steady decline, we are slide into our Jenny

842
00:37:52.619 --> 00:37:54.480
Led awards, Nathan, would you like to go first?

843
00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:58.199
Well, I mean, I hate to be really obvious, but it just has to be

844
00:37:58.199 --> 00:37:59.159
the rat, doesn't it?

845
00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:03.300
Like we've gone on about the rat, but the rat, you know, I've been

846
00:38:03.300 --> 00:38:06.599
roundly critical of talents of Wing Chiang, but it is incredibly

847
00:38:06.599 --> 00:38:07.139
well made.

848
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:08.219
Do you know what I mean?

849
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:10.139
It looks spectacular and expensive.

850
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:15.900
It's just terrific, but the rat is just the worst thing in the

851
00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:16.619
entire season.

852
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:20.579
And Holmes must have known that they weren't...

853
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:24.059
This is the man who called, you know, the lizard monsters from

854
00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:27.360
Carnival of Monsters, the Drashigs, because it was an anagram of

855
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:28.199
Dishrag.

856
00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:30.539
And he thought that that's what they would be made of.

857
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:33.539
He's got to have known that the production team wasn't going to be

858
00:38:33.539 --> 00:38:36.780
able to pull off anything like a convincing giant rat.

859
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:40.920
And a story that has the things leading up to the giant rat, the

860
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:42.239
scene where the doctor's on the boat.

861
00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:43.260
Do you know what I mean?

862
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:46.679
With the elephant gun heading into the Fleet River, just looks

863
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:50.579
incredible, you know, like as good as Doctor Who has ever, ever

864
00:38:50.579 --> 00:38:51.300
ever looked.

865
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.840
And it's a giant, giant sore point in the entire story.

866
00:38:54.900 --> 00:38:58.260
And what's amazing is around the same time, the new Avengers

867
00:38:58.260 --> 00:39:01.500
actually do a better giant rat than Doctor Who.

868
00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:03.960
In the episode, Naws.

869
00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:05.579
Is it good?

870
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:06.840
Should we seek it out?

871
00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:07.500
It's okay.

872
00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:10.440
It's OK. A lot of people don't like it, but you've got to realise

873
00:39:10.440 --> 00:39:14.159
that it's a parody of Jaws with the least likely animal possible.

874
00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:16.980
Oh, so G-N-A-W-S. Yes, North, brilliant.

875
00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:17.639
Genius.

876
00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:21.780
Okay, my Jenny Led Award has to go to...

877
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.440
Where are all the women of Galafray?

878
00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.320
In The Deadly Assassin.

879
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:30.780
Why is Galifre entirely populated with men?

880
00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:31.860
Where are all of them?

881
00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:32.760
story?

882
00:39:32.820 --> 00:39:38.039
Well, even so, you know, you would think that there'd be some

883
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:43.679
logical thought of There must be some women somewhere.

884
00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:48.539
As we discussed with Deadly Assassin, you know, I don't have a big

885
00:39:48.539 --> 00:39:51.300
problem with the way the Time Lord society is presented as

886
00:39:51.300 --> 00:39:53.820
stagnant and defeat and what have you.

887
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.280
But where are the women?

888
00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:57.719
That's my Jenny Led.

889
00:39:57.780 --> 00:39:58.320
Where are you?

890
00:39:58.380 --> 00:39:59.340
I think that's really, really good.

891
00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:00.900
Where are the women?

892
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.000
But I'm just gonna say...

893
00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:05.219
I'm just going to say, that's my genuinely reward.

894
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:06.360
Where are the women, Bob?

895
00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:07.139
Where are the women?

896
00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:08.760
Where do the women feel too?

897
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:11.159
Oh, yes, the entire Hinchcliffe era.

898
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:12.119
It's just appalling.

899
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:14.159
And either side, do you know what I mean?

900
00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.780
We'll start to get more women in Graham Williams.

901
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.880
Either that or it has to be the Tesh costumes.

902
00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:19.260
That's the other thing.

903
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:21.599
I'm going to think, okay, that might supersede.

904
00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:23.579
Well, well, you can decide.

905
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:24.840
If it's a eugenic.

906
00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:27.420
I think I said this last time, if it's a eugenics experiment, why

907
00:40:27.420 --> 00:40:28.199
are they all man?

908
00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:29.760
Like how are the fish breeding?

909
00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:31.500
Where are the women?

910
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.079
So, hold on, let's do a quick count.

911
00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:35.880
So we've got Hilda Winters.

912
00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:36.960
We've got Vira.

913
00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:39.119
No one in Santaran Experiment.

914
00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:41.639
We got Betan. no one in revenge.

915
00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:43.619
Sister Lamond.

916
00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:45.900
Yes, she counts as being a named character.

917
00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:49.500
No one in Pyramids or Planet of Evil.

918
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:51.900
We've got Tessa, Jeff.

919
00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:52.739
Yes.

920
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:53.940
I love Tessa.

921
00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.099
She's Miss Paget for the late 70s.

922
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.739
We've got Ahika and Maran.

923
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.500
They're the only 2 named ones, I think, of the sisterhood.

924
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.380
We have Emilio Ducan, of course.

925
00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:08.039
No named women in masked man, Dragara.

926
00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:09.480
Eldred?

927
00:41:09.539 --> 00:41:10.320
Yeah, right.

928
00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:12.119
And Miss...

929
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.639
I keep going to say Miss Paget.

930
00:41:14.699 --> 00:41:15.420
Miss Jackson.

931
00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:15.840
Thank you.

932
00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:16.860
It's right to 10.

933
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:17.820
We're up to 10.

934
00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:18.539
Okay.

935
00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:19.019
Yeah.

936
00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:19.619
Okay.

937
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:21.599
Deadly assassin, nuts.

938
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.039
Face of evil, nut.

939
00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.300
Pilot Toose, Zilda...

940
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:28.440
Well, she doesn't get named.

941
00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:29.699
I'm only counting named women.

942
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.960
All right.

943
00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:33.539
And does the prostitute get named?

944
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:36.480
She's probably called Elsie or Edith or something.

945
00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:38.639
Oh, one of the cleaners gets named.

946
00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:39.539
Okay.

947
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:40.920
Actually, you know what?

948
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:42.599
Well, if now women are dying.

949
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:43.920
Let's be generous.

950
00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:46.500
Count women with dialogue, so let's let's also have the high

951
00:41:46.500 --> 00:41:47.039
minister.

952
00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:48.360
Oh yeah.

953
00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.179
The computer in...

954
00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:51.960
Let's not go too soon.

955
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.099
I wouldn't count...

956
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:54.599
They haven't been seen on screen.

957
00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:56.340
So seen on screen with dialogue.

958
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.340
So we have the prostitute in Talons of Wing Chiang.

959
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:01.260
We have the cleaner and we have.

960
00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:02.099
She doesn't say anything.

961
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:03.719
She does it, the cleaner doesn't say anything.

962
00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:04.260
Oh, okay.

963
00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:04.860
They laugh.

964
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:06.000
The ghoul.

965
00:42:06.059 --> 00:42:06.239
Okay.

966
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.480
So, 14. 14 women in 17 stories.

967
00:42:09.539 --> 00:42:10.320
Yep.

968
00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:12.599
It's really poor.

969
00:42:12.659 --> 00:42:16.199
And like, you know, like I'm not being quota guy or anything.

970
00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:18.300
It's just less entertaining.

971
00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:19.199
Do you know what I mean?

972
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.400
Like, it's a sausage fest.

973
00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:22.380
It's like watching The Hobbit films.

974
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.159
Do you know what I mean?

975
00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:25.559
Like it's it's just tiresome.

976
00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:28.079
We should do pics of the week.

977
00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:30.900
That's our best Jenny Lad award for a long time, though.

978
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.219
Yeah, where are the women?

979
00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:32.760
Yeah well done.

980
00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:33.480
Where are the women?

981
00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:34.800
I've got two.

982
00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:38.099
So do I. Well, I'll start because I don't really have any.

983
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.880
But I would go with Big Finish, Jago and Lightfoot.

984
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:43.679
I think that's their entire series.

985
00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:46.619
And I think anything with Pamela Salmon is my picket a week.

986
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:49.559
So, you know, maybe a thing called remembrance of the Daleks.

987
00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:50.519
She's fabulous in that?

988
00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:51.119
Yep.

989
00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:52.440
She's a great cardigan in that.

990
00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:54.000
Yeah, she's got great hair.

991
00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:54.900
She's just great.

992
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.960
And she's also back in Big Finish as well, with countermeasures.

993
00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:00.900
Oh, and you could watch that episode of Blake 7 that she's in.

994
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:01.980
She's in...

995
00:43:01.980 --> 00:43:03.300
Oh, look, Signus Alpha.

996
00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:04.679
Well, I have seen that.

997
00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:05.760
She looks fabulous in that too.

998
00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:08.400
Oh, look, just send it, you know, just writing the commentary, you

999
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:10.679
know, Todd, this is where you should be watching Pamela, you

1000
00:43:10.679 --> 00:43:10.860
know.

1001
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.059
Pamela, even, you know, you could also just comment on our block.

1002
00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:15.659
Yeah.

1003
00:43:15.659 --> 00:43:16.380
Yeah.

1004
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.739
My two, one's very short.

1005
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.239
It'll be up on the website.

1006
00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:23.940
It's called East Asians react to yellowface.

1007
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.860
Oh my goodness.

1008
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.639
Yeah.

1009
00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:30.119
So it's, um, yeah, put together by BuzzFeed.

1010
00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:34.019
So some of their editorial team who are Asian, watching

1011
00:43:34.019 --> 00:43:35.340
yellowface.

1012
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:39.239
So specifically there's Marlon Brando, there's Mickey Rooney in

1013
00:43:39.239 --> 00:43:43.739
Breakfast at Tiffany's, and there is even someone from Cloud Atlas

1014
00:43:43.739 --> 00:43:48.300
in 2012 and they not only do they watch the scenes and sort of

1015
00:43:48.300 --> 00:43:50.820
have their immediate reactions film.

1016
00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:54.000
They also discuss how it makes them feel, how it made them feel as

1017
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:55.800
children to watch these sorts of characters.

1018
00:43:56.219 --> 00:44:00.239
And how they're surprised that in a way, it's still happening.

1019
00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:04.739
My other pick, which is a bit more Doctor Who related.

1020
00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:09.780
Talons of Wang Chiang was another Robert Holmes script, which was

1021
00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:15.900
a last minute rewrite of a concept that Robert Banks Stewart was

1022
00:44:15.900 --> 00:44:17.340
meant to be turning into a script.

1023
00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:20.219
So on the back of Terep to Zigons and Scenes of Doom, he was going

1024
00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:22.980
to write a story called Foe from the Future, which gets name

1025
00:44:22.980 --> 00:44:25.440
checked in the dialogue of Talons.

1026
00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:28.980
Foe from the Future has been recorded by Big Finnish.

1027
00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:32.699
It's available in the 4th Dr. Lost Stories box set.

1028
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:37.139
And It does have some similar concepts, but it is a wildly

1029
00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:37.860
different story.

1030
00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:42.960
And in terms of concept, I might even say a superior one.

1031
00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:45.119
That's in terms of concept.

1032
00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:46.619
What about an execution?

1033
00:44:46.679 --> 00:44:52.320
You know what, in execution, it is not as unique as talents

1034
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:56.579
because it's a lot more rooted in the science fictional world, but

1035
00:44:56.579 --> 00:44:59.820
it does use science fiction ideas that Doctor Who hasn't used

1036
00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:00.119
before.

1037
00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:04.260
I don't want to say too much, and it's got possibly my favourite

1038
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:09.480
closing line from Tom of any of his performances on TV or on audio

1039
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:11.579
but I won't say what it is because I'll spoil it for you.

1040
00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.800
Are there any women in them?

1041
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:14.460
There are.

1042
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:15.239
Excellent.

1043
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:19.500
And there is, there is, in fact, a very proactive female character

1044
00:45:19.500 --> 00:45:23.519
from the present, not from the future, but she plays a big part in

1045
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:25.860
the plot and where the doctor and Leila gets separated, she sort

1046
00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:28.079
of becomes de facto companion, if you like.

1047
00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:30.300
So yeah, the foe from the future.

1048
00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:31.920
It in a box set along with Valley of Death.

1049
00:45:31.980 --> 00:45:33.119
It may even be on sale at the moment.

1050
00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:33.780
I'm not sure.

1051
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:35.340
But yeah, check that out on the big Finnish website.

1052
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:36.659
Well, I have 2 as well.

1053
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:41.940
One is the podcast Down and Safe, which is a Blake 7 podcast where

1054
00:45:41.940 --> 00:45:45.239
4 people are watching Blake 7 all the way through in a sort of

1055
00:45:45.239 --> 00:45:46.920
crazy podcast concept.

1056
00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:55.079
They're from all sorts of different places like Canada and America

1057
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:55.980
and so on.

1058
00:45:56.099 --> 00:46:00.059
There are women in it, so Hinchcliffe fans probably won't enjoy

1059
00:46:00.059 --> 00:46:00.960
it.

1060
00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.320
But it's really, really terrifically fun and I really enjoy it.

1061
00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:08.280
They're putting out an episode twice a week and you can find them

1062
00:46:08.280 --> 00:46:10.079
at downandsafe.com.

1063
00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:15.719
My 2nd one and I'm conscious that this is now going to be a few

1064
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:19.920
weeks ago that this was released, but a few months ago, Brendan

1065
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:24.840
and I appeared on the Trust Your Doctor podcast and since then

1066
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:28.139
they've been speaking to other podcasts, Brendan.

1067
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.719
Very, very hurt.

1068
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:31.199
Yeah, it is.

1069
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:32.280
It is heartbreaking.

1070
00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:37.199
So they teamed up with the guys from the Crinoid podcast and did

1071
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:39.539
an episode on Revenge of the Cyberman.

1072
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.179
And it's definitely worth a listen as well.

1073
00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:45.719
You can find the Trust Your Doctor podcast, which will have done a

1074
00:46:45.719 --> 00:46:49.500
few episodes since then at decorativevegetable.com.

1075
00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:05.460
Well, dear listeners, that is all the time we have for talented

1076
00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:09.059
Wayne Chayang for season 14 and for Philip Hinchcliffe.

1077
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:11.940
Robert Holmes will be sticking around for a few more stories

1078
00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:12.119
though.

1079
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:16.920
We will be back next week when we embark on Graham Williams' first

1080
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:18.179
season in the role, season 15.

1081
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:22.199
Now, Todd, you're going to be disappearing for about 6 weeks and

1082
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.000
then joining us again for the key to time.

1083
00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.679
Oh, hooray.

1084
00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:26.699
Thank you, thank you.

1085
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:28.619
I know, right?

1086
00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:33.659
So, Nathan, next season, you will be handling the horror of Fang

1087
00:47:33.659 --> 00:47:35.820
Rock. which is just tiresome.

1088
00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:40.079
I was like, I was going to say, hooray and digging yourself a hole

1089
00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:42.659
in underworld. excited about that.

1090
00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:46.500
Richard, if you're listening, you are doing the Invisible Enemy

1091
00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:52.260
and the Sunmakers, which leaves me with Image of the Fendal, and

1092
00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:55.380
possibly my favourite Gallifrey story, The Invasion of Time.

1093
00:47:56.099 --> 00:48:03.300
Todd, when you rejoin us for season 16, you will be piloting the

1094
00:48:03.300 --> 00:48:04.139
pirate planet.

1095
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:04.739
Okay.

1096
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:08.340
And the Armageddon factor.

1097
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:09.840
We can't win them all.

1098
00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.000
Do I get Androids of Tara?

1099
00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.519
Meanwhile, Nathan, you get the stones of blood and power of

1100
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:14.940
Kroll.

1101
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.679
I like Power of Kroll.

1102
00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:18.480
I'm the only one Oh, I like it too.

1103
00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:18.900
Okay.

1104
00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:19.199
Okay.

1105
00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:24.480
And that leaves me with Rybos operation and the Androids of Tara.

1106
00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:25.500
Which are the 2 best stories.

1107
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:27.659
Are you sure you didn't rig the randomiser, Brandon?

1108
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:30.960
Well, I did, you remember how Richard was allowed to have the

1109
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:32.219
massacre because it was his favourite?

1110
00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:35.639
Android Atari is actually my favourite ever Doctor Who story.

1111
00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:36.780
Oh, good on you.

1112
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:39.239
Yeah, so that was my that was my pick.

1113
00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:42.300
Until next week, dear listener.

1114
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:44.820
Please find us on Facebook, Twitter, and iTunes.

1115
00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:48.239
And also, please share us with everyone you know and love, retweet

1116
00:48:48.239 --> 00:48:51.840
us, leave us a review, or if you haven't enjoyed our podcast, share

1117
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:52.679
us with your enemies.

1118
00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:53.699
I'm sure they'd enjoy that.

1119
00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:56.579
But until then, thank you very much for listening and good night.

1120
00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:57.239
Good night.

1121
00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:58.079
See you soon.

1122
00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:30.239
I almost mentioned, uh, but the conversation went away from it.

1123
00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:33.840
Um, future, I'm aware no fan has gone before, when you were

1124
00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:35.219
talking about scientific explanations.

1125
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:36.960
I don't know if you've seen this before.

1126
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:37.800
Like a simple analogy.

1127
00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:38.280
Yeah, yeah.

1128
00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:41.880
It's got most of the cast of original Trek in it playing

1129
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:42.360
themselves.

1130
00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:44.940
Except for James Dewan, who wouldn't do it.

1131
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.800
So he's replaced by Welsh.

1132
00:49:46.860 --> 00:49:48.059
Welshy.

1133
00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:50.340
Well, she...

1134
00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:53.880
But there's a point where they're trying to get away from an

1135
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:55.679
energy being and crisis.

1136
00:49:55.739 --> 00:49:58.260
If this were an episode of Star Trek, someone would come up with a

1137
00:49:58.260 --> 00:50:01.019
complicated solution that can be easily explained with a simple

1138
00:50:01.019 --> 00:50:01.679
analogy.

1139
00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:05.219
And Leila says, if we feed the ship's energy into the creature

1140
00:50:05.219 --> 00:50:07.440
it'll break down his matrix.

1141
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.960
And Bryce says, like putting too much air in a balloon.

1142
00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:14.099
So as we've been making our way through next gen every time

1143
00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:17.699
Geordie does that, Rod and I just say, like putting too much air

1144
00:50:17.699 --> 00:50:18.420
in a balloon.

1145
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:20.400
It's really good.

1146
00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:25.500
It has like an energy being kidnaps them and makes them be do a

1147
00:50:25.500 --> 00:50:27.119
like Star Trek convention.

1148
00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:30.719
And you've got George Decay saying, I've been to enough Star Trek

1149
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:33.960
conventions, you know, I know how to spell Melvar.

1150
00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:34.559
Yes.

1151
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:39.360
I didn't print enough script, so Walter and Walter and George will

1152
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:40.079
have to share.

1153
00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:40.380
Yeah.

1154
00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:42.059
It's really good.

1155
00:50:43.619 --> 00:50:47.400
Another great science fiction show cancelled before it's time.

1156
00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:48.480
Again.

1157
00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:49.199
Again.