WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:19:38 1 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:37.920 Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, who, thanks to the BBC makeup department, can't actually blink because of all this stuff on our faces. 2 00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:38.820 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:39.600 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:39.659 --> 00:00:41.340 And I understand we all sound the same. 5 00:00:44.640 --> 00:00:52.079 We are heading back to the 1890s, both in terms of story setting and racial politics for the talents of Weng Chiang. 6 00:00:58.140 --> 00:01:01.740 I just want to talk about the elephant that is in the room. 7 00:01:01.799 --> 00:01:05.219 And that is John Bennett, as Leasing Chang. 8 00:01:05.340 --> 00:01:09.359 Taking a Caucasian man and putting yellow face on him for this serial. 9 00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:11.819 What the hell were they thinking? 10 00:01:11.939 --> 00:01:15.299 And I say this now, like, in 2015. 11 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:25.260 I guess the thing is this, I look back at my childhood, and I didn't even realise, as a small child, that he was in Yellowface, I didn't, you know, and for many years, I didn't at all. 12 00:01:25.379 --> 00:01:33.719 And even when I did come to that realisation, probably in my late teens, like I was a bit slow on the uptake, I still didn't see it as being a problem. 13 00:01:33.780 --> 00:01:36.599 Now I see it has been quite a big problem. 14 00:01:36.659 --> 00:01:48.420 Personally, I'd love to know what John Bennett thought about doing this, what the Chinese members of the cast brought about this actually happening, what UK fans thought of it at the time. 15 00:01:48.540 --> 00:01:52.859 I mean, we know that the Canadians did not show this particular cereal. 16 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:58.379 I'd love to know what Doctor Who fans who are non Caucasian actually think about this. 17 00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:05.459 I'd love to know what new who fans, who come to this show from the new series, actually think about this when they see it. 18 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:10.740 I just find it really hard to sort of take myself away from that 10 year old kid. 19 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:17.159 I lived in a suburb here in Australia, at the time in the late 1970s, where there weren't Chinese people. 20 00:02:17.219 --> 00:02:19.379 We had one Chinese restaurant. 21 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:22.800 To go to McDonald's, you had to actually travel two suburbs away. 22 00:02:22.860 --> 00:02:24.719 You know, this is my world at the time. 23 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:29.939 So I find it really hard to be completely outraged to the nth degree. 24 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:33.780 I watch this now, and I go, what were they thinking? 25 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:35.520 But then I sort of get over it. 26 00:02:35.580 --> 00:02:38.280 And I go, well, he's always been Lisa Chang to me. 27 00:02:38.340 --> 00:02:38.819 That's just him. 28 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:40.439 And I think it's a great performance. 29 00:02:40.500 --> 00:02:42.300 And I just get on with it. 30 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:47.280 But I can totally understand if people are completely utterly, you know, outraged. 31 00:02:47.340 --> 00:02:48.060 And I'd love to know. 32 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.259 I mean, please, post some comments in the website. 33 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:53.340 I really would like to know. 34 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:54.300 You guys? 35 00:02:54.419 --> 00:03:01.379 Yeah, well, people really push back against the idea that the Doctor Who is racist, and it's because, you know, we love Doctor Who. 36 00:03:01.439 --> 00:03:02.939 It's part of our childhood. 37 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:07.919 I, you know, talent of Wing Chang is a massively enjoyable and well made story. 38 00:03:08.280 --> 00:03:14.520 And so we don't want to think of it as being racist, and we've had conversations online since starting the podcast. 39 00:03:14.639 --> 00:03:21.360 You know, we identified celestial toy makers, racists, and we arc is racist, and I think they fairly, clearly are. 40 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.060 But people don't want to admit it. 41 00:03:24.120 --> 00:03:24.840 Do you know what I mean? 42 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:27.960 And we'll tie themselves in all sorts of interpretive knots to get away from it. 43 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.639 And so you constantly hear, Oh, there weren't any Chinese people in 1976. 44 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:39.120 And so they just had to slap some fake epicanthic folds on John Bennett and point him in the direction of the camera. 45 00:03:39.180 --> 00:03:41.159 And I just don't think that's good enough. 46 00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.759 Like, I don't believe that there wasn't a Chinese actor available. 47 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:46.979 He looks ridiculous. 48 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:49.139 I mean, he just looks ridiculous. 49 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.400 And there are exactly your point, I think, is a really good one. 50 00:03:53.460 --> 00:03:55.500 There are Chinese cast members. 51 00:03:55.620 --> 00:03:58.139 Do you know what I mean, standing around him. 52 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:00.180 What on earth must they be thinking? 53 00:04:00.240 --> 00:04:07.979 And I think the problem with the story, look, I mean, I do, at some point, want to get on to how great it is, and there are some really good things to say about it. 54 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:12.719 The story is really, it's not just John Bennett, but it's the racism of the story. 55 00:04:12.780 --> 00:04:19.860 Like, in our intro, I said, I understand we all sound the same, but he actually says, I understand we all look the same. 56 00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:21.480 I mean, my goodness. 57 00:04:21.540 --> 00:04:27.000 Yeah, when in fact, Lisa and Chang, you don't look like any Asian person who has ever existed. 58 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:32.160 And, you know, people say, well, that's him mocking the Europeans. 59 00:04:32.220 --> 00:04:33.060 Do you know what I mean? 60 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:41.459 And people point out that Casey is a stereotype as well, you know, he's a drunken, superstitious Irishman who's sort of cowardly and irrational and all of that sort of thing. 61 00:04:41.579 --> 00:04:45.180 And that Jago is a stereotype as well. 62 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:46.079 Do you know what I mean? 63 00:04:46.139 --> 00:04:47.879 Yeah, I think a lightfoot to an extent. 64 00:04:47.939 --> 00:04:51.959 Yeah, yeah, he's kind of, you know, a bit like Dr. Watson or something like that. 65 00:04:52.019 --> 00:04:56.339 But, you know, those stereotypes who are us. you know what I mean? 66 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.759 Who are white British people, like the members of the audience. 67 00:04:59.819 --> 00:05:05.639 They can't be as kind of negative as and cutting as the as the stereotypes of the other. 68 00:05:05.759 --> 00:05:11.519 And so people, people say, oh, you know, Chang's a very sympathetic character. 69 00:05:11.579 --> 00:05:16.500 He's very smart, you know, all of those sorts of things, and he plays on the stereotypes. 70 00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:19.139 And we see him being kind of racist. 71 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:35.160 You know, when he performs on stage, um, He does that shockingly embarrassing accent with the R's and the L's, you know, uh, and he does the, ah, you know, one of us is yellow line and stuff like that. 72 00:05:35.220 --> 00:05:38.819 And all of that is sort of just butt clenchingly embarrassing now. 73 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:44.939 But people say, well, you know, he's mocking the racism of the era and things. 74 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.399 But I don't think it comes across like that at all. 75 00:05:47.459 --> 00:05:54.959 No, I mean, this is what people say, and there is something to be said for the character is a stage performer. 76 00:05:55.019 --> 00:06:01.680 He has a stage accent, which is more Chinese than more kind of stereotype Chinese than the actual accent. 77 00:06:01.740 --> 00:06:06.540 But the fact of the manner is, it's a white guy in makeup doing a Chinese accent. 78 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:08.939 And so it just sort of falls flat. 79 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:09.899 Yeah, exactly. 80 00:06:09.959 --> 00:06:14.819 So Chang's ironic asides, if you like. work on paper. 81 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:29.819 If the character is being played by a Chinese actor, or if at the end of episode 5 when he dies, he reveals that as a character inside the show, he's a white guy wearing a mask. 82 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:31.920 That would have been great. 83 00:06:31.980 --> 00:06:32.459 Oh, wow. 84 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.240 The rat shoes off his his mask to reveal. 85 00:06:36.300 --> 00:06:38.040 That would have, you know, John Bennett. 86 00:06:38.100 --> 00:06:38.579 Hi. 87 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:39.420 I'm John. 88 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:50.279 Yeah, it's a bit like later on in Power of Kroll, where we have a really rubbish representation of Kroll, end of episode one, and it turns out it's a guy in a crap suit. to be a guy in a crap suit. 89 00:06:50.339 --> 00:06:51.899 Probably looks more convincing from the front. 90 00:06:52.019 --> 00:06:52.920 Yeah, exactly. 91 00:06:52.980 --> 00:06:53.459 You know. 92 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:59.579 As far as it goes, if you like, I think John Bennett gives the best performance he can. 93 00:07:00.540 --> 00:07:09.420 But the whole concept is working against... an acceptable performance of the character. 94 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:11.579 The character is racist. 95 00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:14.579 All this stuff about him being a sympathetic character. 96 00:07:14.639 --> 00:07:23.939 He's a sinister Chinaman who kind of lurks around the place, abducting women from the streets and handing them over to his master to be murdered. 97 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:25.259 Do you know what I mean? 98 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:27.180 That's not that sympathetic, you know. 99 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:31.319 So that's another problem I have with this story, is that all these women are being killed. 100 00:07:31.379 --> 00:07:33.600 Why does Gruel have to have young women? 101 00:07:33.660 --> 00:07:34.920 Why can't it just be anybody? 102 00:07:34.980 --> 00:07:36.480 Is it real? 103 00:07:36.540 --> 00:07:36.899 Oh, sorry. 104 00:07:37.740 --> 00:07:41.040 I'm getting a bit confused with the player once did. 105 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:43.620 I'm bringing that up. 106 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:46.800 We once did, I should say, sorry. 107 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:54.600 Like, that's another plot point that I just think is just unbelievable that it's, you know, it's not equal opportunity death here. 108 00:07:54.660 --> 00:07:58.439 It's like, you know, it's only young women who are scantily clad that get murdered. 109 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:12.300 And again, people say, well, you know, this is said in the Victorian era, and it's playing with Victorian era stereotypes, and it's a Jack, the re-analog and all of that, and English people were very racist about Chinese people in the 1890s, and stuff like that. 110 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:15.300 But, you know, that's not really good enough. 111 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:21.480 And, you know, let's take a look at the Crimson horror from just a couple of years ago in the new series. 112 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:33.779 You know, it had strong female villain and female characters. and stuff and still played with all of those stereotypes, but without, there are two speaking women, as usual, for a Hinchcliffe story. 113 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:42.419 In fact, in fact, this is the big renaissance of feminism in the Hinchcliffe era where, for two stories in a row, we've had two speaking women parts. 114 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:49.559 One of them is the ghoul who sees them pulling the body from the thing and says, oh, you wouldn't want that served up with onions. 115 00:08:50.100 --> 00:09:02.159 And then the other is a prostitute who gets, you know, kidnapped off the street by the sympathetic, Lisa and Chang, and then, oh, she does escape, I think, doesn't she? 116 00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:03.240 She doesn't actually. 117 00:09:03.299 --> 00:09:03.600 Yeah, yeah. 118 00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:04.620 Well Leila say... 119 00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:14.100 So the representation of women is just terrible and it's just not good enough, I think, to say, oh, we're just using these old stereotypes and we're not going to re-examine them. 120 00:09:14.159 --> 00:09:15.600 And it's Bob Holmes. 121 00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:16.379 Do you know what I mean? 122 00:09:16.500 --> 00:09:18.240 Bob Holmes is very lazy about that. 123 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:30.539 And it's what gave us the all male cast of pyramids of Mars because he doesn't bother to re-examine, you know, those stereotypes and freshen them and do something more interesting with them. 124 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:32.340 He's just content to fall back on them. 125 00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:42.659 You know, it's what gives us the racism in pyramids of Mars, you know, with all the superstitious, savage Egyptians, you know, running away and being patronised by the white guy. 126 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:48.899 And, and, you know, Shaw Holmes makes fun of colonialism and makes fun of those white guys. 127 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:57.299 But what he doesn't do is a critique of colonialism and what he does is just unthinkingly repeat these stereotypes. 128 00:09:57.360 --> 00:09:59.940 It's not just Lisa and Chang either. 129 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:02.340 Like the, all of our characters. 130 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:11.820 All of the sympathetic characters from Lightfoot, to Jago, to the doctor, and Leila, all say things that we would regard as racist. 131 00:10:11.940 --> 00:10:12.899 Do you know what I mean? 132 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:22.139 So there's, you know, Jago talks about the celestial Chang, we get, you know, more Wongs for the tong from Jago. 133 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:32.100 Lightfoot refers to the Chinese people as devils, you know, the doctor and Leila talk about little men, Leila calls Chang, the yellow one. 134 00:10:32.159 --> 00:10:42.120 And Sandra points this out, even when at the very end in episode 6 where all of Greal's Chinese men come in to get the doctor. 135 00:10:42.179 --> 00:10:46.139 The doctor makes this joke, life's full of little surprises. 136 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:47.340 Do you know what I mean? 137 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:56.279 And at that point, he says, I'm not even going to bother working out whether that's deliberately racist or not, but the doctor calls them all little man in episode one. 138 00:10:56.340 --> 00:11:03.059 You know, like all of that stuff is just so it's just done so thoughtlessly. 139 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:04.440 Yeah. 140 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:12.960 Well, I think Nathan, just to sort of counterpoint that, you've had a previous script editor, I think, in Terrence Sticks, who probably was pretty much aware of that sort of thing. 141 00:11:13.019 --> 00:11:16.080 I mean, I think if we look at British television throughout the 1970s. 142 00:11:16.139 --> 00:11:23.580 There is so much sexism and racism and sitcoms and Doctor Who actually comes across really quite well compared to all of those things. 143 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:31.860 But Bob Holmes does not have the moral compass to be able to moderate himself as well as, I think, the previous script editor on this account. 144 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:43.919 And I think that, but I think it's also really easy to apply where we are now with what we think is acceptable and not, like, to productions now, and you're talking about the crimson horror and how all that's done. 145 00:11:43.980 --> 00:11:46.799 Back in the 1970s, that's not the culture that's around. 146 00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:54.299 So I think it's much harder to be able to, and Doctor Who, on the most part, has been able to not be as racist. 147 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:59.700 So here, yes, you've put up all these points about all this race and racism in all of these aspects. 148 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:05.639 And I don't think all of those things are necessarily extremely racist, like in intent. 149 00:12:05.700 --> 00:12:07.080 I think some are much more than others. 150 00:12:07.139 --> 00:12:08.879 Like if you take a few in isolation. 151 00:12:08.940 --> 00:12:16.500 I think the intent is there to send it up, but then as they add up, that intent diminishes and so it comes across much more racism than what it actually is. 152 00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:20.820 If you look at if you look at Marco Polo, for instance, you know what I mean? 153 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:28.379 Like, again, there's lots of sort of characters in Yellowface, and it does seem a bit less offensive in black and white for some reason, but you've got Zenia Merton and stuff. 154 00:12:28.379 --> 00:12:33.120 And there's a sort of sympathetic portrayal of a whole range of different characters. 155 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:39.659 I think the guy in Mind of Evil, the Chinese delegate is great. 156 00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:41.399 And he's treated very well. 157 00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:42.779 There are some slightly. 158 00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:45.840 There's only one Chinese woman in London in that story, obviously. 159 00:12:45.899 --> 00:12:48.600 But, you know, otherwise that's sort of pretty good. 160 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:55.620 I think the story in Tibet, abominable snowmen, again, do you know what I mean? 161 00:12:55.740 --> 00:12:59.940 Like, yeah, it's a bit collectable. despite the fact they're all sort of white guys, and most of them are Welsh. 162 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.340 You know, it's still a sympathetic portrayal. 163 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:08.940 Well, it's slightly dodgy by modern characteristics, but it's certainly streets ahead of talents of weighing Cheyangg. 164 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:10.259 So I think you're right. 165 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:16.679 I think that Holmes, it is possible for Doctor Who, even in the 70s not to be as racist as this. 166 00:13:16.740 --> 00:13:18.240 Do you know what I mean? 167 00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:23.399 So even comparing it against earlier shows, I think it comes off worse. 168 00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:24.779 Yes, no, I do agree. 169 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:30.899 Something that's interesting then is some modern reappraisal. 170 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:46.440 So, of course, we mentioned earlier at the time, um, TV, Ontario, uh, just didn't show talent to Wing Chang, and a lot of Canadian TV stations, didn't show it after a complaint from Canadian, Chinese and Asian groups. 171 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:57.000 Now, if we look back to the 90s, one of the sort of seminal Doctor Who research works that came out was the discontinuity guide by Paul Cornell, Martin Day, and Keith Topping. 172 00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:01.440 Here's what they have to say about racism and talent of Wang Chiang. 173 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:08.700 One of the great moments of Doctor Who history, an effortless conquering of the pseudo historical genre with a peerless script. 174 00:14:08.759 --> 00:14:17.759 The story features another classic Robert Holmes double act, the theatrical Henry Jago and Professor Lightfoot, although they don't actually meet until episode five. 175 00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:23.340 Spending the previous episodes taking turns at playing Watson All Estrade to the doctor's Sherlock. 176 00:14:23.879 --> 00:14:26.100 Oh, wait, they don't mention it. 177 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:32.700 Meanwhile, 10 years later, in Doctor of the Telecomvision companion by David J. 178 00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:36.779 Howe, it's the characters that really make the talons of Wayne Chiang shine. 179 00:14:36.899 --> 00:14:40.679 John Bennett is faultless as the inscrutable Lisa Chang. 180 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:47.700 And his performance and makeup are so convincing that it's difficult to believe he is not actually Chinese. 181 00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.279 It really isn't that difficult. 182 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.440 Maybe he hasn't met any Chinese people. 183 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:54.840 I have a great deal of respect for David J. 184 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.639 Howard, but yeah, I think he's never met a Chinese. 185 00:14:56.700 --> 00:14:58.440 And my 10 year old self would have agreed with her. 186 00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:00.720 Yeah, not my 40 year old self. 187 00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:01.259 Exactly. 188 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:09.419 You know, and I think if people are going to talk about this story honestly, they have to acknowledge that there was a time where they didn't see a problem with it. 189 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.639 And that's my perspective. 190 00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:13.620 There was a time when I never saw a problem. 191 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:14.820 And for many, many, many years. 192 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:16.320 You're younger than us. 193 00:15:16.379 --> 00:15:18.539 Were your experiences any different? 194 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:31.019 Well, I was just going to say that when I when I was at primary school, I had a lot of friends who were Chinese or Vietnamese or Japanese from various parts of Asia originally. 195 00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:41.159 And I don't think my young self saw a white man in yellow face, you know? 196 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:50.220 It wasn't until, as with Utah, it wasn't until I got older. that I saw, you know, that it was, a white man in makeup. 197 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:52.320 But I still wasn't necessarily outrage. 198 00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:56.519 I mean, we had about one Chinese family in the entire school when I was... 199 00:15:56.580 --> 00:15:58.379 I'm not... 200 00:15:58.379 --> 00:16:04.860 I'm not outraged, but I'm uncomfortable with it and I'm uncomfortable with it for the sake of, you know what? 201 00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:10.019 When people think of Asian actors in the UK, in the 60s and 70s. 202 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.580 They immediately think Bert Klock. 203 00:16:11.580 --> 00:16:13.019 Who will be in Doctor Who? 204 00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:14.100 Who will be in Doctor Who? 205 00:16:14.100 --> 00:16:16.080 and was active at this time. 206 00:16:16.139 --> 00:16:19.860 And, you know, if people come back and say, oh, maybe he wasn't available. 207 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:21.120 Okay, maybe he wasn't available. 208 00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:22.919 But he's not Captain Chin Li. 209 00:16:22.980 --> 00:16:25.139 He's not the only Chinese person in London. 210 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:26.039 You know. 211 00:16:26.100 --> 00:16:45.120 There's got to have been someone who was actually Chinese or even Japanese or Korean or Vietnamese, an actual Asian actor they could have got in there because another racial controversy recently was the casting of John Cho as Sulu in the Star Trek films because he's not Japanese. 212 00:16:45.179 --> 00:16:54.840 But when George Decay, the original Sulu was asked about it, George Decay said, I have no problem with him playing a Japanese character, because Sulu does not represent Japan. 213 00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:57.659 Sulu represents the whole of Asia. 214 00:16:57.720 --> 00:16:58.200 Yeah, yeah. 215 00:16:58.200 --> 00:17:01.860 And no one from Asia was on television when Sulu came about. 216 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.740 And he's like, I've got no problem with anyone from Asia playing Sulu. 217 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.400 Yeah, well, I mean, if they could face John Bennett with some latex eyebrows. 218 00:17:08.460 --> 00:17:09.240 Do you know what I mean? 219 00:17:09.299 --> 00:17:13.859 Like, I'm sure that no one would have been home thinking, I think he might actually come from Japan. 220 00:17:14.460 --> 00:17:21.000 Look, I'm really glad that we've had this discussion about this and I hope that it makes the listeners out there think about things. 221 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:23.279 Or switch off, probably. 222 00:17:23.339 --> 00:17:27.059 Well, either way, but you know, just during their sacred cow. 223 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:32.519 But I really would be interested to actually read some more feedback from other people on. 224 00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:33.000 I really would. 225 00:17:33.059 --> 00:17:36.779 I'd love to now talk about some of the positives in this story. 226 00:17:36.900 --> 00:17:39.359 Yeah, we do we do have another 10 minutes we can do. 227 00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:40.740 I think we really should. 228 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:42.119 I want to go with Jago and Lightfoot. 229 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:49.559 In particular, Lightfoot, who I just adore as a character, and his reactions with Leila, especially when she's eating, are just wonderful. 230 00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:50.819 I just love him as a kid. 231 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:56.579 I just, you know, he was this doctor professor who, well, he just is this gentleman, and I just really, really liked him. 232 00:17:56.700 --> 00:18:02.880 Jago, on the other hand, I could have just, like, killed within the first 10 minutes of the story. 233 00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:12.420 One of these buffoons that I just loathe in Doctor Who, like the pirate captain and, no, no, no, just perfect for performances, I really don't like them to begin with. 234 00:18:12.480 --> 00:18:18.480 But by episode five, when he admits that he's afraid, that's when I really love the character. 235 00:18:18.539 --> 00:18:25.319 And then going back and watching it again, like, you know, I still, like the 1st few episodes, it's like, 0 my goodness. 236 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:27.539 But I just love him by the end. 237 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.000 Holmes is brilliant dialogue as well. 238 00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:30.660 Do you know what I mean? 239 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:32.279 Everything he says is so funny. 240 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:42.000 I think he's terrific, and the 2 of them are amazing, and Cornell, they and topping, say, it's always a surprise to see them not actually meet until midway through episode five. 241 00:18:42.059 --> 00:18:45.359 Yeah, because you feel like they're together for the whole story. 242 00:18:45.420 --> 00:18:53.400 And of course, when they do meet, it's this whole British class system happening again because Lightfoot happens to be cleaning something at the time. 243 00:18:53.460 --> 00:19:00.660 He must be a butler and therefore must be spoken down to and get me your master, et cetera, et cetera. 244 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:10.799 It's completely understandable how, uh, Christopher Benjamin and Trevor Baxter are still playing the characters to this day in big finish. 245 00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:14.579 And of course, we we're soon to have Jago and Lightfoot and Strax. 246 00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:16.859 Which is going to be insane. 247 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:18.660 It's a combination of the script. 248 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.859 And really, the 2 actors giving it their all as well. 249 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:32.279 You know, they create these perfectly rounded characters and they have that nuanced, like you mentioned, told of Jago admitting his fear at the end there. 250 00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:33.119 And that scene. 251 00:19:33.180 --> 00:19:42.660 It's kind of a replay of a scene we discussed in Planet of the Daleks, you know, courage isn't a matter of not being scared, it's being scared and doing what you have to do anyway. 252 00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:46.799 But it doesn't have the Terry Nation sledgehammer approach. 253 00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:50.940 You know, in that scene, you had pertly sort of dictating what courage was. 254 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:59.819 This is Jago and Lightfoot discussing and coming to a conclusion together on what courage is and more so what fear is. 255 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.000 And it's a real defining moment for the 2 of them. 256 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:04.200 Speaking of fear. 257 00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:09.599 As a child, I was absolutely, absolutely mortified by Mr. Sin. 258 00:20:09.660 --> 00:20:11.759 Like, I was terrified, terrified. 259 00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:12.720 I had nightmares. 260 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:14.579 I think it's a fantastic performance. 261 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:16.859 It's a terrific character too, isn't it? 262 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:25.319 Just the way he goes out of control in episode seeks and virtually just kills Greel, you know, and the laugh and all of that sort of thing. 263 00:20:25.380 --> 00:20:26.519 It's really really great. 264 00:20:26.819 --> 00:20:36.599 And just the whole look of the doll and everything, even the dialogue between him and Chang on stage is terrifically funny. 265 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:38.099 Like I think he's great. 266 00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:42.480 I think the production here is just spectacular. 267 00:20:42.539 --> 00:20:52.200 And it's something, you know, the BBC, we've said it before, can do period stuff, the Victorian stuff, it can do really well, but they're just throwing stacks of money at it. 268 00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:55.740 So they've got some great locations on film. 269 00:20:55.799 --> 00:21:01.259 They've got night shoots, you know, like they've got OB stuff, you know, like... 270 00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:03.660 Yep, the stuff in the theatre on videotape. 271 00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:07.440 Lightfoot, some laboratories on videotape, you know, in a location. 272 00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:11.279 There's stuff outdoors, I think, that's on OB cameras well. 273 00:21:11.339 --> 00:21:15.059 So the whole thing is really lavish and really expensive. 274 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:16.319 Lots of shooting at night. 275 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:18.240 It's really, really atmospheric. 276 00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:23.400 Like, the story goes that Hinchcliffe knew that he was going and just thought we'll spend next year's budget as well. 277 00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:26.640 I mean, you're watching Invisible Enemy next year. 278 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:27.420 You'll know why. 279 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.519 I even like the haystack. 280 00:21:29.640 --> 00:21:31.500 I like stack. 281 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:31.740 Yeah. 282 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:32.700 So do we know this story? 283 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:35.759 Someone didn't move their card before shooting. 284 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:40.680 And so they're stuck with the location that they want to shoot in and there's a car in the middle of it. 285 00:21:40.740 --> 00:21:42.420 So they just cover it with hay. 286 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:43.440 Yeah, yeah. 287 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:45.059 They put a tarpaulin over it first. 288 00:21:45.180 --> 00:21:47.400 So you can get hay in the gear ship. 289 00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:48.539 They shouldn't have done that. 290 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:54.900 Just coming back to something you were saying earlier, all that work in the theatre and the chase sequence in the theatre. 291 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:55.799 It's Walsh Watch. 292 00:21:55.859 --> 00:21:57.180 Oh, is it? 293 00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:01.079 We've got Terry doubling for Tom in some of that, like the swing over and whatnot. 294 00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:05.700 Terry and Stuart fell, doubling for Tom and Michael Spice, the lesser known Spice Girl. 295 00:22:06.960 --> 00:22:09.720 He was Morbius, of course last year. 296 00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:10.500 Yes, he was. 297 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:15.000 That also made me think of another favourite moment I have for Lightfoot. 298 00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:21.059 It's when Leila comes down in her new dress after she's been through her ordeal in the sewers and we'll get onto the giant rat in a moment. 299 00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:22.980 No, no, can we get onto the dress in a moment? 300 00:22:23.039 --> 00:22:23.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 301 00:22:23.940 --> 00:22:29.460 But she comes down in this dress and Trevor Baxter's reaction as Lightfoot. 302 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:36.059 There have been many allegations and suggestions that Leila was brought in to boost the show sex appeal. 303 00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:43.680 So it would be very easy for Trevor Baxter to play that scene as an older man in lust after a younger woman. 304 00:22:43.740 --> 00:22:46.079 But that is not how the scene comes across. 305 00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:47.880 He looks like a proud father. 306 00:22:47.940 --> 00:22:54.420 Don't you think it's like Henry Higgins and Colonel PJ going off arm in arm to buy a lovely dress for... 307 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:55.380 Oh, absolutely. 308 00:22:55.440 --> 00:22:59.160 And I've seen Rupert Everett as Henry Higgins. 309 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:01.380 So yeah, that's definitely happening there. 310 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.680 So Nathan, you wanted to talk about Leila and the Rat. 311 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:07.079 Well, I want to talk about the dress. you know what I mean? 312 00:23:07.140 --> 00:23:11.039 And like we've had dress or the dress that she's wearing when she's menaced by the right. 313 00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.720 Well, we'll talk about it'll all come up. 314 00:23:12.779 --> 00:23:13.859 It's all one big thing. 315 00:23:14.519 --> 00:23:15.720 It's all very frock. 316 00:23:15.779 --> 00:23:25.500 We've seen we've seen 8 episodes where Leila's written by Chris Belcher and he writes her as someone who's intelligent, as we said, but instinctual, do you know what I mean? 317 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.380 Who quickly grasps things the doctor tells her? 318 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:30.359 and is smart and intelligent. 319 00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:37.200 She dismisses the doctor's explanation of the Tartas as, you know, dimensional transcendental illness. 320 00:23:37.259 --> 00:23:38.940 I meant to say that. 321 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:40.680 Do you know what I mean? 322 00:23:40.859 --> 00:23:41.339 As silly. 323 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:42.779 You know, she's not stupid at all. 324 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:52.440 But in this story, I think she's completely defanged, and she's written as an idiot, and she's also written as a purely peril monkey. 325 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:54.000 Do you know what I mean, as someone in peril? 326 00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:59.279 And so we see her, racing through the sewers in her transparent undies. 327 00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:01.019 Dewey see some nipple there, Todd? 328 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:02.339 Possibly. 329 00:24:02.400 --> 00:24:03.119 Yes. 330 00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:06.240 She screams when the tongue attack her. 331 00:24:06.299 --> 00:24:07.079 Do you know what I mean? 332 00:24:07.140 --> 00:24:09.119 She's really fairly useless in that scene. 333 00:24:09.180 --> 00:24:16.079 All of the stuff about her not understanding Victorian morals and etiquette and stuff. 334 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:25.019 Maybe with the exception of the really good conversation about tea in episode six, is her being kind of stupid and slow on the uptake. 335 00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:30.960 And just the pride with which she shows off her new dress. 336 00:24:31.019 --> 00:24:32.099 Do you know what I mean? 337 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:34.680 Like, she's just turned into such a girly girl. 338 00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:40.740 And it just enrages me that she's so defanged in this story by Holmes. 339 00:24:40.859 --> 00:24:42.839 I'm sorry, I can't agree at all. 340 00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:46.140 OK, yes, when she's attacked by the tong. 341 00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:48.480 She screams, because there's six of them. 342 00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:49.500 You know? 343 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:51.059 She's Leila, do you know what I mean? 344 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.839 Well, exactly. 345 00:24:51.900 --> 00:24:56.519 Later on, she's killing people with Janus thorns because they're trying to attack the doctor. 346 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:03.539 The whole reason she gets captured by Lisa and Chang is because she saved someone else to put herself in danger. 347 00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:15.240 The stuff about the Victorian etiquette is sending up Victorian etiquette, like when she picks up the bone to eat and starts eating with her hand. standing up Victorian etiquette because we have the same things. 348 00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:16.380 Do you know what I mean? 349 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.319 We eat with knives and forks and you don't pick the food up out of your thing. 350 00:25:19.380 --> 00:25:26.279 And in fact, Lightfoot comes over, comes across as a gentleman, you know, confronted by an idiot. 351 00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:27.299 Do you know what I mean? 352 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:28.799 And he's being very lovely about it. 353 00:25:28.859 --> 00:25:30.420 But here's the thing, right? 354 00:25:30.539 --> 00:25:36.420 In our modern culture, we might say to someone, oh, no, you know, it's much better if you eat with a knife and fork. 355 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:43.740 The reason that Lightfoot starts eating with his hands as well is, in Victorian culture, you would not embarrass your guest. 356 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:46.019 You would not point out a faux pas. 357 00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:47.220 You wouldn't invite them round again. 358 00:25:47.279 --> 00:25:48.240 That's what you do. 359 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:51.720 But he would not embarrass them by pointing out where they got it wrong. 360 00:25:51.779 --> 00:25:52.559 And that's stupid. 361 00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:56.160 He does step in when she goes to wipe her face on the tablecloth. 362 00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:57.779 And she's wrestling. 363 00:25:57.839 --> 00:25:59.519 The thing is, she doesn't mind that. 364 00:25:59.579 --> 00:26:01.740 She goes, oh, okay, that's the proper thing to do. 365 00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:12.539 Whereas if he'd done that before and said, oh, if you use this, Leila adapts to situation she's in and she does kind of respond to that kind of feedback of, oh, this is what you do. 366 00:26:12.599 --> 00:26:14.039 And that's what I think the dress is about. 367 00:26:14.099 --> 00:26:18.119 I don't think she is necessarily proud of the dress, but look at her face. 368 00:26:18.180 --> 00:26:19.079 It's embarrassing. 369 00:26:19.980 --> 00:26:31.380 Because the professor has shown her kindness and hospitality, and it shows that even though she is not cultured in the sense of the Victorian era. 370 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:36.000 She is cultured in a way that you show gratitude to people who have shown you kindness. 371 00:26:36.059 --> 00:26:44.759 So I still think she is a very strong character in this because she's arriving at the same conclusions as everyone else, but through a different method. 372 00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:52.140 And when the doctor's explaining the science of like the zigma beam, you know, she does the Futurama thing of putting too much air in a balloon. 373 00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:55.079 You mean there's a hole in the water bag and the hole is getting bigger. 374 00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:57.240 She completely understands the science 1st thing. 375 00:26:57.299 --> 00:27:06.900 See, the dress is a picture for me of someone who is getting male approval for being a proper girly for the 1st time and really enjoying that. 376 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:15.599 And so it just sees her put in a proper feminine box where Holmes wants her, it does set my teeth on edge. 377 00:27:15.660 --> 00:27:16.200 I'm afraid. 378 00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:20.519 I'm not as outraged as you, Nathan, on these matters. 379 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:21.900 I probably are somewhere in between. 380 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:31.440 I can see both points of view. the whole screaming from the rat and that sequence, which I think really defangs her, but the other stuff, I actually think that she's quite natural in that and I don't really have a problem with it. 381 00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:35.339 No, I think she's better spoiler alert next week in horror of Hang Rock. 382 00:27:35.400 --> 00:27:36.000 Do you know what I mean? 383 00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:39.299 I think she's a lot better and she is given a girly counterpoint. 384 00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:40.140 Do you know what I mean? 385 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:41.339 Whom she can be better than. 386 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:48.779 But there is a tendency, I think, in the following season to shed the boucher characterisation and just writer as an idiot. 387 00:27:48.900 --> 00:27:50.819 Now, we've mentioned the rat. 388 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.500 It's so bad. 389 00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:54.420 That scene. 390 00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:02.460 That 1st scene when you see it and it's a tiny rat crawling through like a toilet roll representation of the sewer tunnel. 391 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.980 I like the way it sort of bounces along. 392 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:12.000 It's impossible to tell that the actual miniature rat inside the miniature tunnel that that's supposed to be a giant rat. 393 00:28:12.059 --> 00:28:12.960 Like you can't tell. 394 00:28:13.019 --> 00:28:14.460 Yeah, yeah, it's not from below. 395 00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:15.960 No sense of scale. 396 00:28:16.019 --> 00:28:17.400 I just thought it was one of the rats in the sewer. 397 00:28:17.460 --> 00:28:19.380 No, it's meant to be the giant rats. 398 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.059 You see, that's how poor it is. 399 00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:27.539 And then the other one, which looks like it's just come fresh from a rat hair salon. you know what I mean? 400 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:35.160 So it's, you know, and I'm sure that someone else pointed this out, you know, I'm not the 1st to say this, but its hair just looks like nylon. 401 00:28:35.220 --> 00:28:35.880 Do you know what I mean? 402 00:28:35.940 --> 00:28:39.359 And like, its teeth look like basil brushes, front teeth. 403 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:45.599 It doesn't look remotely and the way that it, the way that it bounces up and down is just absurd. 404 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:51.900 And we do see this with Holmes, where Holmes is much more interested in writing about people, and that's a good thing. 405 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.559 Do you know what I mean? 406 00:28:52.619 --> 00:28:55.740 And so in Power of Kroll, there's one big monster. 407 00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.359 In Rebus operation, Rebus operation, there's the Shrivenzal. 408 00:29:00.420 --> 00:29:02.940 In case of Anjazani, there's the magma creature. 409 00:29:03.059 --> 00:29:13.319 You know, he'll very frequently just throw in, even Carnival of Monsters has, you know, drashings and stuff, but essentially, the idea is he'll throw in a monster just to blockade us because it's Doctor Who. 410 00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:15.539 But essentially he's more interested in people. 411 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:17.099 And that's good, that's laudable. 412 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:17.819 You know what I mean? 413 00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:20.640 But I just sort of wonder what the rat's there for. 414 00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:24.720 It would so easily, the story would have coped without the rat. right. 415 00:29:24.779 --> 00:29:28.319 What do we think of Michael Spice's performance as Bent Face? 416 00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:34.500 Sometimes I think he's a bit over the top, but he does have quiet moments as well. 417 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:45.660 That moment in, is the episode 5 or 6 where he actually has his 1st meeting with the doctor and they sit down at Lightfoot's table and talk about the situation. 418 00:29:45.720 --> 00:29:49.680 Is it the one where the doctor looks up and suddenly notices that he's there? 419 00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:50.880 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 420 00:29:50.940 --> 00:29:51.960 He's talking to Leila. 421 00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:55.140 He sits down and he looks up and it's Greal sitting next to him. 422 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.420 And that conversation is great. isn't it? 423 00:29:57.480 --> 00:29:57.839 Yeah, yeah. 424 00:29:57.900 --> 00:30:00.000 I think that's a I think that's a wonderful conversation. 425 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:06.299 But then you get seems like, full, a time agent, what does ask such questions or whatever it is? 426 00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:10.920 It's the usual thing that Holmes does where the villains call everyone really rude. 427 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:12.240 Oh, yes, yeah, yeah. 428 00:30:12.299 --> 00:30:13.380 I just have to wait. 429 00:30:13.380 --> 00:30:16.980 Let the talons of Wang Chi-ang. 430 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:22.259 And I just can't watch that anymore without bursting into laughter because many years ago. 431 00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:28.859 Many years ago, Nathan and I were involved in a little Doctor Who play for a convention here in Sydney. 432 00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:32.700 And, um, A good friend of ours, Simon Moore. 433 00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:33.480 Friend of the podcast? 434 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:36.720 Friend of the podcast, Simon Moore, portrayed Mangus Grill. 435 00:30:36.779 --> 00:30:42.299 And the way he delivered that line, I never really registered at the time that that's the way it was delivered in the show. 436 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:59.279 And so I just, I now watch this, this show and there's just so much stuff that, um, Simon was doing and that friend of the podcast, Peter Griffiths, who wrote the script, like just sends up and just twists the lines and I just sit there laughing my head off when I know that I shouldn't be. 437 00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:07.140 I will also just point out that that play, which was called There's Something about Magnus, the guy who drained me. 438 00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:11.460 That play is superior to this story in at least one respect. 439 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:14.460 I think we had an actual Chinese person in it. 440 00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.059 There was an actual Asian actor playing Lisa and Chang. 441 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:25.500 And I do recall there was a wonderful moment where you had Simon as Magnus Greel, and I never knew the man. 442 00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:30.059 Anthony Yee, Anthony Yee, as Lisa and Chang. 443 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:32.460 Grill is giving him a telling off. 444 00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:33.599 Like, you're fool! 445 00:31:33.660 --> 00:31:38.339 You don't, you, you, you, and Cheng just inscrutable Asian stereotype. 446 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.859 You inscrutable Asian stereotype. 447 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.700 And I remember that, I think, got one. 448 00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:45.720 The 2nd biggest laugh. 449 00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:48.660 I think the 1st biggest laugh was Sylvester McCoy playing Joe Grant. 450 00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:50.160 My God, the things we did. 451 00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:51.779 Here's Joe Grant. 452 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:58.319 And then, of course, the lovely Nicola Bryant says, well, the ultimate manga squeal. 453 00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:02.339 And I do remember the next day, Casey wasn't at the convention that day. 454 00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:06.960 She was at the convention the 2nd day. and found out they did a play and she turned... 455 00:32:07.019 --> 00:32:07.980 Oh, you did a play. 456 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:09.359 Were you in it, Sylvester? 457 00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:10.380 Oh yes, I was you, darling. 458 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.299 Oh, haven't we all been, darling? 459 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:14.880 Oh, God, they were good sports. 460 00:32:14.940 --> 00:32:18.720 So, the legacy of... 461 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.220 Holmes Hinchcliffe. 462 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:20.579 Here we are. 463 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.680 Yeah, this is good, yeah. 464 00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:32.579 Now, I just want to say this. 21 episodes of this season. in the top 25 shows of the week, which is, you know, a significant uptick. 465 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.640 Over the last few years, it's been building. 466 00:32:35.700 --> 00:32:38.519 I think there's like 13 episodes of previous 2 years. 467 00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:42.599 And even in John's last season, I think there's 12 episodes that are in the top 25. 468 00:32:42.839 --> 00:32:53.339 And so really since season 10, Doctor Who has been moving from top 30, top 25, and this year, you know, into, you know, the top 20 even more so. 469 00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:54.599 But it's all about to change. 470 00:32:54.660 --> 00:32:57.660 Tom's only had one episode outside the top 50. 471 00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:02.279 Only 10 of his episodes over these 3 seasons are, in fact, outside the top 30. 472 00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:03.000 Right. 473 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:08.519 Starting from next year, there are only 16 more episodes of Doctor Who that are inside the top 30. 474 00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:09.480 Like ever. 475 00:33:09.539 --> 00:33:10.140 Like ever. 476 00:33:10.200 --> 00:33:18.119 Wow. 15 of those are up to the end of the Graham Williams era, in the Horns of Nine. 477 00:33:18.180 --> 00:33:22.920 And only the Horns that I'm in part four, and episode one of Time Flight. 478 00:33:22.920 --> 00:33:27.420 For the 1980s, they're only two episodes that are in the top 30. 479 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:28.500 Goodness. 480 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:35.039 And the only episode remaining, that the Rock 2 makes the top 20, is City of Death, Episode 4. 481 00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.440 Because the other side was on strike. 482 00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:38.759 Well, if that's true. 483 00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:40.980 But there's a significant shift. 484 00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:47.940 Next year, for the first time, since season seven, there is not a single episode of Doctor Who inside the top 20. 485 00:33:48.180 --> 00:33:48.839 Wow. 486 00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:55.319 There's only two episodes, of The Horror of Frame Rock, that make it to number 23, and nothing else in the top 25. 487 00:33:55.440 --> 00:34:02.039 So there's a significant shift, in Doctor Who's Audience, starting from the beginning of next season. 488 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:10.199 And this is before people know about Graham Williams, or lack of budgets, or robot dogs, or whatever you want to say. 489 00:34:10.260 --> 00:34:17.159 But there's a change, and people will choose after this story, not to come back and watch the show in the same numbers. 490 00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:24.300 Now, I'm being very dramatic over the next three years, there's still many episodes of Doctor Who between 30 and 50th, and in Davidson's first year, as well. 491 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:39.719 But what was once building and building and building, which really started in the second half of John Pertwee's second series, with the show shifted into the top 30 for the first time in a long time, it suddenly moving back out of the top 2025. 492 00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:45.239 Is this the legacy of the Holmes Hinchcliffe era, and why is that the case? 493 00:34:45.300 --> 00:34:47.039 Now we've discussed things, you know? 494 00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:53.760 previously about characterisation, Sarah, for example, becoming less real, that audience identification? 495 00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:54.300 Is it that? 496 00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:59.159 You know, it is this thing where it takes a while, you know what I mean? 497 00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:04.800 Like, it's not, people decided not to tune into the invisible enemy, because they thought it would be terrible. 498 00:35:04.860 --> 00:35:05.699 Do you know what I mean? 499 00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.340 It has to be a response to previous things. 500 00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:09.119 That's right. 501 00:35:09.179 --> 00:35:19.980 Like, I think people rightly regard the Hinchcliffe era as a high point for the show, just because of the look of it and, you know, the writing and stuff. 502 00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:21.059 It is really effective. 503 00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:31.260 So I don't know that I want to lay... certainly the stuff in the '80s, you know, there's no way that that's directly a result of people switching off during Hingcliffe, you know, I think the '80s. 504 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:34.980 Oh, no, no, but what I'm saying is that there is a change. right? 505 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:37.619 It's not must see TV for all of that audience anymore. 506 00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:46.980 Well, Santa for, um, in his entry on the invisible enemy talks about really the slow slide cancellation that sort of kicks in there. 507 00:35:47.099 --> 00:35:55.500 And part of it is Inchcliffe's fault, you know, in that the show is excessively violent and comes under much greater scrutiny. 508 00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:57.360 Some of it's the fault of the economy. 509 00:35:57.420 --> 00:35:58.260 Do you know what I mean? 510 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:06.179 Oh, well, Hinchcliffe's fault in that he spends all the money on towns of Wayne Cheyang, and leaves Williams with a reduced budget, but some of it's economical. 511 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:06.840 Do you know what I mean? 512 00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:10.260 That there's massive inflation and the money doesn't go very far. 513 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.739 And so suddenly Doctor Who starts to look really ropey. 514 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:21.900 But I mean, on the counterpoint, you know, episode 4 of Underworld, which we know is not very good. 515 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:26.579 In terms of money wise. is the highest rated episode next season in terms of viewers. 516 00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:30.000 Like there's no logic necessarily logical reason. 517 00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:41.340 And so I'm hoping that's something that you guys will explore during, you know, next year and and, and, you know, reflecting on where we've been with homes in Hinchcliffe and where homes and where homes will go. 518 00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:42.539 I think it's a good point. 519 00:36:42.599 --> 00:36:45.000 I think we are entering a sort of long death march now. 520 00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:45.840 Do you know what I mean? 521 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:51.300 Like, I'll be saying tiresome a lot more often, I think, probably from here on in. 522 00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:54.000 I lay the blame on something very simple. 523 00:36:54.539 --> 00:36:56.219 Star Wars. 524 00:36:56.519 --> 00:37:08.219 And Graham Williams and I think Anthony Reid and Tom Baker went to see Star Wars and came out and essentially said, oh, 4 letter word. 525 00:37:08.280 --> 00:37:10.320 We're screwed. pretty much. 526 00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:11.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 527 00:37:11.039 --> 00:37:18.300 Because this is now the 1st time that people can find their sci-fi heroes on the big screen. 528 00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:28.320 Yeah. and have a new avenue, whereas Doctor Who has been that conduit for cult sort of television superhero sort of thing in Britain. 529 00:37:28.380 --> 00:37:30.420 And now there's going to be a shift. 530 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:31.019 Yeah. 531 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:35.519 Sorry, that's a bit of a downer. 532 00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:38.880 I didn't want it to be like that, but I just wanted to bring up that there was... 533 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:42.119 We've had this super success and this season has been extraordinary. 534 00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:45.059 Not one episode outside the top 40 for the whole season. 535 00:37:45.179 --> 00:37:46.260 Right. 536 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:54.480 So on that note of a steady decline, we are slide into our Jenny Led awards, Nathan, would you like to go first? 537 00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:59.159 Well, I mean, I hate to be really obvious, but it just has to be the rat, doesn't it? 538 00:37:59.219 --> 00:38:07.139 Like we've gone on about the rat, but the rat, you know, I've been roundly critical of talents of Wing Chiang, but it is incredibly well made. 539 00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:08.219 Do you know what I mean? 540 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:10.139 It looks spectacular and expensive. 541 00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:16.619 It's just terrific, but the rat is just the worst thing in the entire season. 542 00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:20.579 And Holmes must have known that they weren't... 543 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:28.199 This is the man who called, you know, the lizard monsters from Carnival of Monsters, the Drashigs, because it was an anagram of Dishrag. 544 00:38:28.260 --> 00:38:30.539 And he thought that that's what they would be made of. 545 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:36.780 He's got to have known that the production team wasn't going to be able to pull off anything like a convincing giant rat. 546 00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:42.239 And a story that has the things leading up to the giant rat, the scene where the doctor's on the boat. 547 00:38:42.300 --> 00:38:43.260 Do you know what I mean? 548 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:51.300 With the elephant gun heading into the Fleet River, just looks incredible, you know, like as good as Doctor Who has ever, ever, ever looked. 549 00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.840 And it's a giant, giant sore point in the entire story. 550 00:38:54.900 --> 00:39:01.500 And what's amazing is around the same time, the new Avengers actually do a better giant rat than Doctor Who. 551 00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:03.960 In the episode, Naws. 552 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:05.579 Is it good? 553 00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:06.840 Should we seek it out? 554 00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:07.500 It's okay. 555 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:14.159 It's OK. A lot of people don't like it, but you've got to realise that it's a parody of Jaws with the least likely animal possible. 556 00:39:14.219 --> 00:39:16.980 Oh, so G-N-A-W-S. Yes, North, brilliant. 557 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:17.639 Genius. 558 00:39:17.820 --> 00:39:21.780 Okay, my Jenny Led Award has to go to... 559 00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:25.440 Where are all the women of Galafray? 560 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:28.320 In The Deadly Assassin. 561 00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:30.780 Why is Galifre entirely populated with men? 562 00:39:30.840 --> 00:39:31.860 Where are all of them? 563 00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:32.760 story? 564 00:39:32.820 --> 00:39:43.679 Well, even so, you know, you would think that there'd be some logical thought of There must be some women somewhere. 565 00:39:43.860 --> 00:39:53.820 As we discussed with Deadly Assassin, you know, I don't have a big problem with the way the Time Lord society is presented as stagnant and defeat and what have you. 566 00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:56.280 But where are the women? 567 00:39:56.340 --> 00:39:57.719 That's my Jenny Led. 568 00:39:57.780 --> 00:39:58.320 Where are you? 569 00:39:58.380 --> 00:39:59.340 I think that's really, really good. 570 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:00.900 Where are the women? 571 00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:03.000 But I'm just gonna say... 572 00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:05.219 I'm just going to say, that's my genuinely reward. 573 00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:06.360 Where are the women, Bob? 574 00:40:06.420 --> 00:40:07.139 Where are the women? 575 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:08.760 Where do the women feel too? 576 00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:11.159 Oh, yes, the entire Hinchcliffe era. 577 00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:12.119 It's just appalling. 578 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:14.159 And either side, do you know what I mean? 579 00:40:14.159 --> 00:40:15.780 We'll start to get more women in Graham Williams. 580 00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:17.880 Either that or it has to be the Tesh costumes. 581 00:40:17.940 --> 00:40:19.260 That's the other thing. 582 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:21.599 I'm going to think, okay, that might supersede. 583 00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:23.579 Well, well, you can decide. 584 00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:24.840 If it's a eugenic. 585 00:40:24.900 --> 00:40:28.199 I think I said this last time, if it's a eugenics experiment, why are they all man? 586 00:40:28.260 --> 00:40:29.760 Like how are the fish breeding? 587 00:40:29.820 --> 00:40:31.500 Where are the women? 588 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.079 So, hold on, let's do a quick count. 589 00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:35.880 So we've got Hilda Winters. 590 00:40:35.940 --> 00:40:36.960 We've got Vira. 591 00:40:37.019 --> 00:40:39.119 No one in Santaran Experiment. 592 00:40:39.179 --> 00:40:41.639 We got Betan. no one in revenge. 593 00:40:41.699 --> 00:40:43.619 Sister Lamond. 594 00:40:43.679 --> 00:40:45.900 Yes, she counts as being a named character. 595 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:49.500 No one in Pyramids or Planet of Evil. 596 00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:51.900 We've got Tessa, Jeff. 597 00:40:52.019 --> 00:40:52.739 Yes. 598 00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:53.940 I love Tessa. 599 00:40:54.000 --> 00:40:56.099 She's Miss Paget for the late 70s. 600 00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.739 We've got Ahika and Maran. 601 00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:01.500 They're the only 2 named ones, I think, of the sisterhood. 602 00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:04.380 We have Emilio Ducan, of course. 603 00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:08.039 No named women in masked man, Dragara. 604 00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:09.480 Eldred? 605 00:41:09.539 --> 00:41:10.320 Yeah, right. 606 00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:12.119 And Miss... 607 00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:14.639 I keep going to say Miss Paget. 608 00:41:14.699 --> 00:41:15.420 Miss Jackson. 609 00:41:15.480 --> 00:41:15.840 Thank you. 610 00:41:15.900 --> 00:41:16.860 It's right to 10. 611 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:17.820 We're up to 10. 612 00:41:18.059 --> 00:41:18.539 Okay. 613 00:41:18.539 --> 00:41:19.019 Yeah. 614 00:41:19.079 --> 00:41:19.619 Okay. 615 00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:21.599 Deadly assassin, nuts. 616 00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:23.039 Face of evil, nut. 617 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.300 Pilot Toose, Zilda... 618 00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:28.440 Well, she doesn't get named. 619 00:41:28.500 --> 00:41:29.699 I'm only counting named women. 620 00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:30.960 All right. 621 00:41:31.079 --> 00:41:33.539 And does the prostitute get named? 622 00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:36.480 She's probably called Elsie or Edith or something. 623 00:41:36.539 --> 00:41:38.639 Oh, one of the cleaners gets named. 624 00:41:38.760 --> 00:41:39.539 Okay. 625 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:40.920 Actually, you know what? 626 00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:42.599 Well, if now women are dying. 627 00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:43.920 Let's be generous. 628 00:41:43.980 --> 00:41:47.039 Count women with dialogue, so let's let's also have the high minister. 629 00:41:47.099 --> 00:41:48.360 Oh yeah. 630 00:41:48.420 --> 00:41:51.179 The computer in... 631 00:41:51.179 --> 00:41:51.960 Let's not go too soon. 632 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.099 I wouldn't count... 633 00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:54.599 They haven't been seen on screen. 634 00:41:54.659 --> 00:41:56.340 So seen on screen with dialogue. 635 00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:59.340 So we have the prostitute in Talons of Wing Chiang. 636 00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:01.260 We have the cleaner and we have. 637 00:42:01.260 --> 00:42:02.099 She doesn't say anything. 638 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:03.719 She does it, the cleaner doesn't say anything. 639 00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:04.260 Oh, okay. 640 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:04.860 They laugh. 641 00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:06.000 The ghoul. 642 00:42:06.059 --> 00:42:06.239 Okay. 643 00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:09.480 So, 14. 14 women in 17 stories. 644 00:42:09.539 --> 00:42:10.320 Yep. 645 00:42:10.380 --> 00:42:12.599 It's really poor. 646 00:42:12.659 --> 00:42:16.199 And like, you know, like I'm not being quota guy or anything. 647 00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:18.300 It's just less entertaining. 648 00:42:18.360 --> 00:42:19.199 Do you know what I mean? 649 00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:20.400 Like, it's a sausage fest. 650 00:42:20.460 --> 00:42:22.380 It's like watching The Hobbit films. 651 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:23.159 Do you know what I mean? 652 00:42:23.219 --> 00:42:25.559 Like it's it's just tiresome. 653 00:42:25.619 --> 00:42:28.079 We should do pics of the week. 654 00:42:28.139 --> 00:42:30.900 That's our best Jenny Lad award for a long time, though. 655 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:32.219 Yeah, where are the women? 656 00:42:32.280 --> 00:42:32.760 Yeah well done. 657 00:42:32.820 --> 00:42:33.480 Where are the women? 658 00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:34.800 I've got two. 659 00:42:34.860 --> 00:42:38.099 So do I. Well, I'll start because I don't really have any. 660 00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.880 But I would go with Big Finish, Jago and Lightfoot. 661 00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:43.679 I think that's their entire series. 662 00:42:43.739 --> 00:42:46.619 And I think anything with Pamela Salmon is my picket a week. 663 00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:49.559 So, you know, maybe a thing called remembrance of the Daleks. 664 00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:50.519 She's fabulous in that? 665 00:42:50.579 --> 00:42:51.119 Yep. 666 00:42:51.179 --> 00:42:52.440 She's a great cardigan in that. 667 00:42:52.500 --> 00:42:54.000 Yeah, she's got great hair. 668 00:42:54.059 --> 00:42:54.900 She's just great. 669 00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:57.960 And she's also back in Big Finish as well, with countermeasures. 670 00:42:58.019 --> 00:43:00.900 Oh, and you could watch that episode of Blake 7 that she's in. 671 00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:01.980 She's in... 672 00:43:01.980 --> 00:43:03.300 Oh, look, Signus Alpha. 673 00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:04.679 Well, I have seen that. 674 00:43:04.739 --> 00:43:05.760 She looks fabulous in that too. 675 00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:10.860 Oh, look, just send it, you know, just writing the commentary, you know, Todd, this is where you should be watching Pamela, you know. 676 00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.059 Pamela, even, you know, you could also just comment on our block. 677 00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:15.659 Yeah. 678 00:43:15.659 --> 00:43:16.380 Yeah. 679 00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.739 My two, one's very short. 680 00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:21.239 It'll be up on the website. 681 00:43:21.300 --> 00:43:23.940 It's called East Asians react to yellowface. 682 00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:25.860 Oh my goodness. 683 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:26.639 Yeah. 684 00:43:26.699 --> 00:43:30.119 So it's, um, yeah, put together by BuzzFeed. 685 00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:35.340 So some of their editorial team who are Asian, watching yellowface. 686 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:50.820 So specifically there's Marlon Brando, there's Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's, and there is even someone from Cloud Atlas in 2012 and they not only do they watch the scenes and sort of have their immediate reactions film. 687 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:55.800 They also discuss how it makes them feel, how it made them feel as children to watch these sorts of characters. 688 00:43:56.219 --> 00:44:00.239 And how they're surprised that in a way, it's still happening. 689 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:04.739 My other pick, which is a bit more Doctor Who related. 690 00:44:04.800 --> 00:44:17.340 Talons of Wang Chiang was another Robert Holmes script, which was a last minute rewrite of a concept that Robert Banks Stewart was meant to be turning into a script. 691 00:44:17.400 --> 00:44:25.440 So on the back of Terep to Zigons and Scenes of Doom, he was going to write a story called Foe from the Future, which gets name checked in the dialogue of Talons. 692 00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:28.980 Foe from the Future has been recorded by Big Finnish. 693 00:44:29.039 --> 00:44:32.699 It's available in the 4th Dr. Lost Stories box set. 694 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:37.860 And It does have some similar concepts, but it is a wildly different story. 695 00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:42.960 And in terms of concept, I might even say a superior one. 696 00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:45.119 That's in terms of concept. 697 00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:46.619 What about an execution? 698 00:44:46.679 --> 00:45:00.119 You know what, in execution, it is not as unique as talents, because it's a lot more rooted in the science fictional world, but it does use science fiction ideas that Doctor Who hasn't used before. 699 00:45:00.179 --> 00:45:11.579 I don't want to say too much, and it's got possibly my favourite closing line from Tom of any of his performances on TV or on audio, but I won't say what it is because I'll spoil it for you. 700 00:45:11.760 --> 00:45:13.800 Are there any women in them? 701 00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:14.460 There are. 702 00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:15.239 Excellent. 703 00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:28.079 And there is, there is, in fact, a very proactive female character from the present, not from the future, but she plays a big part in the plot and where the doctor and Leila gets separated, she sort of becomes de facto companion, if you like. 704 00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:30.300 So yeah, the foe from the future. 705 00:45:30.360 --> 00:45:31.920 It in a box set along with Valley of Death. 706 00:45:31.980 --> 00:45:33.119 It may even be on sale at the moment. 707 00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:33.780 I'm not sure. 708 00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:35.340 But yeah, check that out on the big Finnish website. 709 00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:36.659 Well, I have 2 as well. 710 00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:46.920 One is the podcast Down and Safe, which is a Blake 7 podcast where 4 people are watching Blake 7 all the way through in a sort of crazy podcast concept. 711 00:45:49.079 --> 00:45:55.980 They're from all sorts of different places like Canada and America and so on. 712 00:45:56.099 --> 00:46:00.960 There are women in it, so Hinchcliffe fans probably won't enjoy it. 713 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:04.320 But it's really, really terrifically fun and I really enjoy it. 714 00:46:04.380 --> 00:46:10.079 They're putting out an episode twice a week and you can find them at downandsafe.com. 715 00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:28.139 My 2nd one and I'm conscious that this is now going to be a few weeks ago that this was released, but a few months ago, Brendan and I appeared on the Trust Your Doctor podcast and since then they've been speaking to other podcasts, Brendan. 716 00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.719 Very, very hurt. 717 00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:31.199 Yeah, it is. 718 00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:32.280 It is heartbreaking. 719 00:46:32.340 --> 00:46:39.539 So they teamed up with the guys from the Crinoid podcast and did an episode on Revenge of the Cyberman. 720 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.179 And it's definitely worth a listen as well. 721 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:49.500 You can find the Trust Your Doctor podcast, which will have done a few episodes since then at decorativevegetable.com. 722 00:47:01.619 --> 00:47:09.059 Well, dear listeners, that is all the time we have for talented Wayne Chayang for season 14 and for Philip Hinchcliffe. 723 00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:12.119 Robert Holmes will be sticking around for a few more stories, though. 724 00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:18.179 We will be back next week when we embark on Graham Williams' first season in the role, season 15. 725 00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:24.000 Now, Todd, you're going to be disappearing for about 6 weeks and then joining us again for the key to time. 726 00:47:24.059 --> 00:47:25.679 Oh, hooray. 727 00:47:25.800 --> 00:47:26.699 Thank you, thank you. 728 00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:28.619 I know, right? 729 00:47:28.679 --> 00:47:35.820 So, Nathan, next season, you will be handling the horror of Fang Rock. which is just tiresome. 730 00:47:36.000 --> 00:47:42.659 I was like, I was going to say, hooray and digging yourself a hole in underworld. excited about that. 731 00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:55.380 Richard, if you're listening, you are doing the Invisible Enemy, and the Sunmakers, which leaves me with Image of the Fendal, and possibly my favourite Gallifrey story, The Invasion of Time. 732 00:47:56.099 --> 00:48:04.139 Todd, when you rejoin us for season 16, you will be piloting the pirate planet. 733 00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:04.739 Okay. 734 00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:08.340 And the Armageddon factor. 735 00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:09.840 We can't win them all. 736 00:48:09.900 --> 00:48:12.000 Do I get Androids of Tara? 737 00:48:12.059 --> 00:48:14.940 Meanwhile, Nathan, you get the stones of blood and power of Kroll. 738 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:16.679 I like Power of Kroll. 739 00:48:16.739 --> 00:48:18.480 I'm the only one Oh, I like it too. 740 00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:18.900 Okay. 741 00:48:18.900 --> 00:48:19.199 Okay. 742 00:48:19.619 --> 00:48:24.480 And that leaves me with Rybos operation and the Androids of Tara. 743 00:48:24.539 --> 00:48:25.500 Which are the 2 best stories. 744 00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:27.659 Are you sure you didn't rig the randomiser, Brandon? 745 00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:32.219 Well, I did, you remember how Richard was allowed to have the massacre because it was his favourite? 746 00:48:32.280 --> 00:48:35.639 Android Atari is actually my favourite ever Doctor Who story. 747 00:48:35.699 --> 00:48:36.780 Oh, good on you. 748 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:39.239 Yeah, so that was my that was my pick. 749 00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:42.300 Until next week, dear listener. 750 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:44.820 Please find us on Facebook, Twitter, and iTunes. 751 00:48:44.880 --> 00:48:52.679 And also, please share us with everyone you know and love, retweet us, leave us a review, or if you haven't enjoyed our podcast, share us with your enemies. 752 00:48:52.739 --> 00:48:53.699 I'm sure they'd enjoy that. 753 00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:56.579 But until then, thank you very much for listening and good night. 754 00:48:56.639 --> 00:48:57.239 Good night. 755 00:48:57.300 --> 00:48:58.079 See you soon. 756 00:49:25.079 --> 00:49:30.239 I almost mentioned, uh, but the conversation went away from it. 757 00:49:30.300 --> 00:49:35.219 Um, future, I'm aware no fan has gone before, when you were talking about scientific explanations. 758 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:36.960 I don't know if you've seen this before. 759 00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:37.800 Like a simple analogy. 760 00:49:37.860 --> 00:49:38.280 Yeah, yeah. 761 00:49:38.340 --> 00:49:42.360 It's got most of the cast of original Trek in it playing themselves. 762 00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:44.940 Except for James Dewan, who wouldn't do it. 763 00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:46.800 So he's replaced by Welsh. 764 00:49:46.860 --> 00:49:48.059 Welshy. 765 00:49:48.119 --> 00:49:50.340 Well, she... 766 00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:55.679 But there's a point where they're trying to get away from an energy being and crisis. 767 00:49:55.739 --> 00:50:01.679 If this were an episode of Star Trek, someone would come up with a complicated solution that can be easily explained with a simple analogy. 768 00:50:01.739 --> 00:50:07.440 And Leila says, if we feed the ship's energy into the creature, it'll break down his matrix. 769 00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:09.960 And Bryce says, like putting too much air in a balloon. 770 00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:18.420 So as we've been making our way through next gen every time Geordie does that, Rod and I just say, like putting too much air in a balloon. 771 00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:20.400 It's really good. 772 00:50:20.460 --> 00:50:27.119 It has like an energy being kidnaps them and makes them be do a like Star Trek convention. 773 00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:33.960 And you've got George Decay saying, I've been to enough Star Trek conventions, you know, I know how to spell Melvar. 774 00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:34.559 Yes. 775 00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:40.079 I didn't print enough script, so Walter and Walter and George will have to share. 776 00:50:40.139 --> 00:50:40.380 Yeah. 777 00:50:40.440 --> 00:50:42.059 It's really good. 778 00:50:43.619 --> 00:50:47.400 Another great science fiction show cancelled before it's time. 779 00:50:47.460 --> 00:50:48.480 Again. 780 00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:49.199 Again.