WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 15:59:33 1 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.060 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through 2 00:00:33.060 --> 00:00:33.659 Entirety. 3 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.960 The only Doctor Who podcast whose hosts are a result of the 4 00:00:36.960 --> 00:00:38.520 Hillbracken cloning technique. 5 00:00:38.579 --> 00:00:39.240 I'm Brendan. 6 00:00:39.299 --> 00:00:40.079 I'm Nathan. 7 00:00:40.140 --> 00:00:42.119 I'm a lovely prawn bisque for this. 8 00:00:42.840 --> 00:00:45.299 And food with you, isn't it? 9 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:49.200 And we're headed deep into the asteroid belt, breaking out like a 10 00:00:49.200 --> 00:00:51.299 plague of locusts for the invisible enemy. 11 00:00:55.500 --> 00:00:58.799 Richard, you've been saddled with this prawn. 12 00:00:58.859 --> 00:01:00.960 Mmm, yum, yum. 13 00:01:01.020 --> 00:01:03.060 So where do we start off with this one? 14 00:01:03.179 --> 00:01:04.260 Oh, I'm very excited. 15 00:01:04.319 --> 00:01:05.459 The fish people are back. 16 00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:06.719 We've got the underwater menace. 17 00:01:06.780 --> 00:01:08.040 We've refound the episode. 18 00:01:08.099 --> 00:01:09.540 They're wearing exactly the same makeup. 19 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:11.519 Contact has been made. 20 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:14.280 I left my dictionary at home, so I won't be able to spell check 21 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.280 myself for this episode, but it turns out neither could any of the 22 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:17.879 design people. 23 00:01:17.939 --> 00:01:20.760 Have you seen how they spell the signage on this story? 24 00:01:20.819 --> 00:01:22.439 It's worth watching. 25 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:24.420 And yet... 26 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:27.120 I like exit with eggs. with eggs in it. 27 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:27.780 Yes, yes. 28 00:01:27.959 --> 00:01:31.140 It feels a bit red and stimpy, doesn't it? 29 00:01:31.200 --> 00:01:33.480 There's a lot of Frudian jokes underneath all of this. 30 00:01:33.540 --> 00:01:39.180 So is it a Shavian thing where we've where we've adopted phonetic 31 00:01:39.180 --> 00:01:41.280 spelling and... 32 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:44.819 So far in the future that we can just direct and lighten film and 33 00:01:44.819 --> 00:01:46.260 script anything anyway we want to. 34 00:01:46.379 --> 00:01:50.459 The reason this story, I feel maybe not the most successful of all 35 00:01:50.459 --> 00:01:52.260 Doctor Who stories of all time? 36 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:52.980 Yeah, possibly. 37 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.120 We're assuming that, you know, the listeners has watched it. 38 00:01:57.180 --> 00:01:59.400 And if you haven't, oh, you don't need to. can just listen to us. 39 00:01:59.519 --> 00:02:01.200 A bit quicker. 40 00:02:01.260 --> 00:02:03.359 And we've got a higher budget, actually. 41 00:02:03.420 --> 00:02:06.480 You know, when I say that Doctor Who really works when it's trying 42 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.099 to do other things. 43 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.219 Well, this is where I'm proven disastrously wrong. 44 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:15.240 Doctor Who works, I feel, when it does other literary or filmic 45 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:16.199 tropes. 46 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:16.919 Was that the word? 47 00:02:16.979 --> 00:02:18.479 I think that might be a word. 48 00:02:18.539 --> 00:02:19.319 Chin chin. 49 00:02:19.379 --> 00:02:23.580 But it doesn't work where it rips off other looks or other styles 50 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:26.219 or tries to be another someone else's success. 51 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:31.800 Now, Brendan, you were talking about the S word, I believe, this 52 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:34.139 one and that would be George Lucas. 53 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:34.740 Oh, okay. 54 00:02:34.740 --> 00:02:36.000 Star Wars. 55 00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:37.020 Star Wars. 56 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:39.360 But this story is filmed in April 77. 57 00:02:39.659 --> 00:02:44.280 So all the spaceship shots and the inclusion of a new companion, if 58 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:47.819 you want to call him that, which we'll get to, um, you would feel 59 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:49.319 is aping the success. 60 00:02:49.379 --> 00:02:49.919 It's not. 61 00:02:49.979 --> 00:02:53.099 It's actually nodding to Kubrick and to, of course, Jerry 62 00:02:53.099 --> 00:02:53.639 Anderson. 63 00:02:53.699 --> 00:02:55.919 Sylvia Atson with Space 1979. 64 00:02:56.099 --> 00:03:01.199 Star Wars was in production, so people were seeing pictures and 65 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:01.560 whatnot. 66 00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:04.020 So certainly there may have been some influence there. 67 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:06.539 But yes, it didn't come out for several months after December. 68 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.419 It wasn't predicted to be the success that it was going to be 69 00:03:09.419 --> 00:03:13.080 unless you were a complete fanboy and picking up copies of Starlog 70 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.979 which was the magazine to go to in the 70s that it wasn't in the 71 00:03:16.979 --> 00:03:17.819 popular imagination. 72 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:22.259 So, and yet this thing has the biggest model effect, shooting time 73 00:03:22.259 --> 00:03:24.300 of the whole history of Doctor Who. 74 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:26.280 It's spent more money on it. 75 00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:29.340 Apparently, since the space pirates will actually get an even 76 00:03:29.340 --> 00:03:33.180 bigger one with a story called Underworld later on in the season 77 00:03:33.180 --> 00:03:35.759 which is just terrific for lots and lots of good reasons. 78 00:03:35.819 --> 00:03:37.080 I'm looking forward to that one. 79 00:03:37.139 --> 00:03:39.180 The model work is spectacular. 80 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:39.900 Is it though? 81 00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:41.639 No, it's terrible. 82 00:03:41.699 --> 00:03:42.960 It's so bad. 83 00:03:43.020 --> 00:03:46.199 I love model work and as you can see around our lovely withdrawing 84 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:46.620 room. 85 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:48.000 There are quite a few models here, but no. 86 00:03:48.000 --> 00:03:52.080 Look, I think it's no, it really doesn't work and it really 87 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:52.560 should. 88 00:03:52.620 --> 00:03:56.340 And don't let Matt Irvin ever design anything because his 89 00:03:56.340 --> 00:04:02.280 spaceships look like toilet rolls with washing up bottles glued to 90 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:02.699 the front of them. 91 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:07.439 So the Titan base is just about acceptable, I think. 92 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:09.900 The model is all right. 93 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.680 The spaceships really look cheap and terrible. 94 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:14.819 There's one scene. 95 00:04:15.419 --> 00:04:16.379 They're expensive models. 96 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:18.180 The movement? 97 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.959 There's one scene in episode one where the spaceship lands and it 98 00:04:21.959 --> 00:04:25.439 goes down this sort of cardboard corridor, which just looks like 99 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:30.240 zen and bass, you know, with sort of very low property values. 100 00:04:30.300 --> 00:04:35.160 And then we get the we get the Bio Foundation, which is like a 101 00:04:35.160 --> 00:04:36.839 papier mache rock. 102 00:04:36.899 --> 00:04:39.300 And it comes with a landing pad. 103 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:41.879 It comes pre-crashed into. 104 00:04:41.939 --> 00:04:43.500 It comes pretty crashed into. 105 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:45.540 Because the 1st shot. 106 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:46.620 Yeah, that's right. 107 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:48.240 It's really terrible. 108 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:51.899 And the spaceship hitting the bi our foundation thing in episode 2 109 00:04:51.899 --> 00:04:52.500 is awful. 110 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.800 I think the models are just universally terrible. 111 00:04:55.860 --> 00:04:59.579 And I have very few good things to say about underworld later in 112 00:04:59.579 --> 00:05:03.899 the season, but the models for underworld are better than they are 113 00:05:03.899 --> 00:05:04.259 here. 114 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:05.819 This is true. 115 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:10.980 I really like the Titan shuttle because, in my mind anyway, It's 116 00:05:10.980 --> 00:05:13.259 aping the look of the space shuttle. 117 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:17.819 Which was a very, very new idea in 1977. 118 00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:19.259 I think it was... 119 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:20.399 That's true. 120 00:05:20.459 --> 00:05:23.939 Oh, there was the Dino Saw, which had been actually around since 121 00:05:23.939 --> 00:05:27.660 the very early 70s and there's a test vehicle of that in the 122 00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:29.519 opening credits sold the $6000000 man. 123 00:05:29.579 --> 00:05:30.420 Oh, right. 124 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.319 It looks like a fat space shuttle, the Titan shit, which when you 125 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:37.980 think about the way design goes forward, 1st you come up with your 126 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:41.639 basic technological vehicle design, then it actually gets bigger 127 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:43.740 but then it becomes more streamlined. 128 00:05:43.800 --> 00:05:46.319 So I certainly see what they were going for there. 129 00:05:46.379 --> 00:05:49.139 Yeah, I agree some of the model work isn't so good, especially the 130 00:05:49.139 --> 00:05:51.360 crash into the thing where they've obviously just put it on a 131 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.720 piece of string and spun it on the string and thrown it towards 132 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:55.199 the camera. 133 00:05:55.259 --> 00:05:56.160 Yeah, pretty much. 134 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.620 But at the same time, it's very quick and you get that wonderful 135 00:05:58.620 --> 00:06:02.819 nose cone view where they put the camera on the front of the ship 136 00:06:02.819 --> 00:06:08.160 and you see the asteroid spinning as the ship rushes towards it 137 00:06:08.220 --> 00:06:09.120 that's very effective. 138 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:11.040 Blake 7, isn't it? 139 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:15.360 Yes, but well, and Blake 7 was in its was in its early stages at 140 00:06:15.360 --> 00:06:15.720 this point. 141 00:06:15.779 --> 00:06:18.779 Chris Boucher's last script is about to appear because he's going 142 00:06:18.779 --> 00:06:22.199 to go off and rewrite Terry Nations notes on the backs of 143 00:06:22.199 --> 00:06:22.920 envelopes. 144 00:06:22.980 --> 00:06:24.660 And why we have no more David Maloney. 145 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:25.199 Yeah. 146 00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:27.300 Have you ever heard of an artist called Roger Dean? 147 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:30.779 Just passing an image to the fellow podcast casters. 148 00:06:30.899 --> 00:06:31.860 Oh, yeah. 149 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:34.019 Dear listener, which... 150 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:34.560 Yeah, yeah. 151 00:06:34.620 --> 00:06:36.360 And then that's something called lighthouse. 152 00:06:36.420 --> 00:06:37.560 But he did a lot of... 153 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:38.759 Mouse House from Hitchhiking. 154 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.279 Here's the most hikers, but those little square windows. 155 00:06:41.339 --> 00:06:43.319 It does look a lot like the Bayau Foundation. 156 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:44.519 Yeah, so we'll stick that up there. 157 00:06:44.579 --> 00:06:47.160 You know, this was borrowing a lot from Prog Rock and there were 158 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.540 some really interesting SF ideas around in the 70s. 70s were a 159 00:06:51.540 --> 00:06:52.980 good time to be reading SF. 160 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:58.139 So this always felt kind of the 2D poor man's version of what was 161 00:06:58.139 --> 00:07:00.420 actually happening outside and Doctor Who shouldn't do that. 162 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:02.279 It should reference, but it shouldn't ape. 163 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.379 So that's kind of my feeling of why it's not working. 164 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:06.420 But the ideas behind this are really interesting. 165 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:07.860 We haven't got to the prawn yet. 166 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:10.199 But the notion of a buy our foundation. 167 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:14.639 Jared O'Neill was someone that was kind of contracted to NASA. 168 00:07:14.699 --> 00:07:18.959 The notions of asteroids as colossal arcologies. 169 00:07:19.019 --> 00:07:21.000 You were aware of that word arcology. 170 00:07:21.060 --> 00:07:23.459 It's like an enclosed community. 171 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:24.540 Exactly. 172 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:27.660 It's giant things if you've ever watched Thunderbirds 2086. 173 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.839 Brendan, you'll recall that was actually Techno Voyager, the 174 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:36.420 Japanese 80s show that ITC rebranded and broadcast as an animated 175 00:07:36.420 --> 00:07:40.139 Thunderbirds in the 80s. anyway, their big island base was called 176 00:07:40.139 --> 00:07:41.100 the Arcology. 177 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:43.379 It was a big octahedron. 178 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.540 The kind of thing that Todd floats around in when he calls 179 00:07:45.540 --> 00:07:46.139 questions out. 180 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:51.180 Yeah, Palo Solari was the Italian architect who came up with a 181 00:07:51.180 --> 00:07:52.379 notion of that. 182 00:07:52.439 --> 00:07:56.639 And the idea was that it was a cities, cities that could be self 183 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:00.060 fulfilling and self-powered and have a whole Hermetic community 184 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:01.800 either on Earth or in space. 185 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.040 And they, you know, this was something that we were talking about 186 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.160 and the concept for the next stage of mankind. 187 00:08:08.220 --> 00:08:12.660 We forget how venturesome, our thinking was in this time. 188 00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:16.199 There was a lot of optimism around, as well as also a lot of fear 189 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:19.560 being preempted by Robert Ehrlich's book. 190 00:08:19.620 --> 00:08:22.620 Of course, we've talked about the population bomb and the films 191 00:08:22.620 --> 00:08:26.279 like Soylent Green, that were a few years before that talked about 192 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:28.439 overpopulation, strangling mankind. 193 00:08:28.500 --> 00:08:29.220 We needed to move out. 194 00:08:29.220 --> 00:08:32.639 The asteroid belt were seen as a logical place because there'd be 195 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:36.840 a lot of opportunities for mining there and even people believed 196 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:41.820 that frozen, the ice in moons contained oxygen. 197 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:43.799 All these ideas were going around anyway. 198 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:47.220 So there's lots of really nice concepts behind this, but my 199 00:08:47.220 --> 00:08:50.039 goodness, you've got to trudge to find them, haven't you? 200 00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:52.620 Well, in fact, I think that there's, I think there's a problem. 201 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:56.519 This is Bob Baker and Dave Martin, and as usual, have another 202 00:08:56.519 --> 00:08:57.240 drink listener, yeah. 203 00:08:57.299 --> 00:09:02.940 It's just full of ideas that they dredge up, play with the 10 204 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:04.200 minutes and then throw away. 205 00:09:04.259 --> 00:09:05.399 Do you know what I mean? 206 00:09:05.460 --> 00:09:09.480 And so the cloning is, you know, just a perfect example. 207 00:09:09.539 --> 00:09:11.759 Oh, I'm going to finish up with the cloning because the cloning is 208 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:15.240 the massive thing for me on this story and why it works and maybe 209 00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:17.460 why it really colossally fails. 210 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:18.419 But it's right. 211 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:21.299 Like you're saying, I don't think, I think reason Bob Baker and 212 00:09:21.299 --> 00:09:23.700 Dave Martha's stories work when they work is that they have a 213 00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:27.360 brilliant designer behind them to coalesce it all and make you 214 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:30.179 feel as if you're actually in a prog rock album from the 70s. 215 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:31.620 Look at Claws of Axos. 216 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:34.019 It was beautiful at the time and I think it's still stunning to 217 00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:36.120 look at now and distracts you. 218 00:09:36.179 --> 00:09:38.759 You just get overwhelmed by the sensorialness of everything. 219 00:09:38.820 --> 00:09:42.059 But this one, maybe design isn't really up there on this story. 220 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:45.779 So this is Barry Newbury as the designer and he's actually been 221 00:09:45.779 --> 00:09:46.559 really good. 222 00:09:46.620 --> 00:09:47.759 I think he's great. 223 00:09:47.820 --> 00:09:49.139 You really like it? 224 00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:53.879 Mask of Mandragara. you know, is terrific, but he can't overcome 225 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:55.620 the budget restrictions for this one. 226 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:57.240 And so the set is terrible. 227 00:09:57.299 --> 00:10:00.000 Is that why he's moved the TARDIS console room into the back of a 228 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:00.779 butcher's fan? 229 00:10:00.840 --> 00:10:02.220 so tiny, isn't it? 230 00:10:02.279 --> 00:10:03.480 It's a butcher's man. 231 00:10:03.480 --> 00:10:04.559 It's white. 232 00:10:04.620 --> 00:10:08.159 It's cold, it's cramped, and there's a big old Liner pork hanging 233 00:10:08.159 --> 00:10:08.460 up there. 234 00:10:08.519 --> 00:10:09.240 I'm sorry, Tom. 235 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:14.340 And yeah, of course, yeah, we no longer have the wooden console 236 00:10:14.340 --> 00:10:16.620 room because apparently it was warped in storage, but also 237 00:10:16.620 --> 00:10:19.320 visually the console wasn't interesting to look at. 238 00:10:19.379 --> 00:10:21.299 So the old console's been refurbished. 239 00:10:21.720 --> 00:10:25.019 It was actually, I mean, we've heard those stories and it's 240 00:10:25.019 --> 00:10:27.240 possibly true, but they could have just rebuilt a couple of 241 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:27.600 flats. 242 00:10:27.659 --> 00:10:30.840 It was really that Graham Williams wanted to return to the 243 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:33.659 gleaming white sensation of spaciness. 244 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.299 He wanted to go into space and he didn't want, and he didn't want 245 00:10:36.299 --> 00:10:38.159 to be identified with his cliff in any way. 246 00:10:38.220 --> 00:10:39.000 Which is understandable. 247 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:40.860 You know, you're a new person. 248 00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:44.940 I'm a certain way, but I quite like this console room as well. 249 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:47.639 I prefer it when it's refined in the 80s and we get a bit more 250 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:52.259 adornment on the walls. but I especially like Leila's reaction to 251 00:10:52.259 --> 00:10:52.500 it. 252 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.580 Oh, God, I can't swing a mini skirt in here. 253 00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:58.740 A leather strap. 254 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:00.840 We've never been in here. 255 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.419 You've never been in here before. 256 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:06.779 So it is it is the console room that we're stuck with for the rest 257 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:09.779 of the run of the original series, essentially. 258 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.840 They'll replace the they replace the console itself. 259 00:11:12.899 --> 00:11:13.620 But... 260 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.279 Well, I think when they eventually replace the console, the walls 261 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:18.240 are also new. 262 00:11:18.299 --> 00:11:20.100 I think the scanner piece stays. 263 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.440 So that scanner piece is refurbished. 264 00:11:22.620 --> 00:11:25.500 Yeah, the round also look the way they do for the rest of the run 265 00:11:25.500 --> 00:11:26.639 of the show and so on. 266 00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:30.240 I think Titan-based, there's an attempt to make it sort of Ken 267 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:35.220 Adamish by having some exposed rock and at ceilings and stuff. 268 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:36.960 But it, it's not very good. 269 00:11:36.960 --> 00:11:41.399 And, and, and the bio foundation, like a lot of plain white walls 270 00:11:41.399 --> 00:11:44.220 which are less boring than I remember because there's an, you know 271 00:11:44.220 --> 00:11:47.100 again, an attempt to put columns and things in there, but he's 272 00:11:47.100 --> 00:11:49.259 just got no money and he can't hide that. 273 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:52.320 And so the design looks terrible. 274 00:11:52.379 --> 00:11:57.480 Yeah, I think the Bio Foundation, it's too neat and it's too 275 00:11:57.480 --> 00:11:58.440 pristine. 276 00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:00.600 It's just, yeah, just. boring. 277 00:12:00.659 --> 00:12:01.740 Yeah, it's really cool. 278 00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:07.139 And that's why Doctor Who always relies on the magnetic quality of 279 00:12:07.139 --> 00:12:11.399 its supporting cast to draw those disparate elements together and 280 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.500 make a cohesive whole. 281 00:12:13.500 --> 00:12:15.299 And then we end up with this story. 282 00:12:15.539 --> 00:12:18.779 Are there any actors in this at all that really shine for you? 283 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:19.980 No, none of them. 284 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:22.559 Michael Sheard, do you know? 285 00:12:22.620 --> 00:12:26.879 Who is terrible, although he's really enjoying himself as a 286 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:27.899 villain in episode three. 287 00:12:28.019 --> 00:12:29.940 He lifts it a little bit. 288 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.419 You've got Frederick Jeager, who was Jano in the savages and who 289 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:37.379 was Sorenson, who's really good, who's a proper actor, and here he 290 00:12:37.379 --> 00:12:40.500 just puts on a stupid accent and larks about. 291 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:41.039 He terrible. 292 00:12:41.100 --> 00:12:44.519 This is a theme of the Williams... 293 00:12:44.580 --> 00:12:45.000 Yeah, yeah. 294 00:12:45.059 --> 00:12:48.299 It's a theme of the Williams era where people think it's supposed 295 00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:51.419 to be funny or for children or whatever and they do silly voices 296 00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:52.559 and they ruin it. 297 00:12:52.620 --> 00:12:56.100 Spoiler alert will get more of that in nightmare of Eden. 298 00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:57.960 So he's terrible. 299 00:12:58.019 --> 00:13:00.419 You know, there's really no one else. 300 00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:04.500 There's those terrible people on Titan base who are being relieved 301 00:13:04.500 --> 00:13:07.019 who are kind of swiftly massacred. 302 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:07.799 So to speak. 303 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:09.059 And remember, they're having a Titan. 304 00:13:09.120 --> 00:13:10.200 You're welcome to it. 305 00:13:10.860 --> 00:13:15.419 They're having the world's most listless and desultory party, you 306 00:13:15.419 --> 00:13:17.820 know, in the history of the solar system. 307 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:20.399 But they say, come in, get your gear off. 308 00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:21.240 Do you remember? 309 00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:22.320 It's like... 310 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.779 They're a swinging... 311 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:25.679 Well, you know what? 312 00:13:25.740 --> 00:13:29.039 It's the 51st century and they're 51st century guys. 313 00:13:29.100 --> 00:13:29.820 Thank you. 314 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:30.779 You're talking about Jack. 315 00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:33.240 They've gotten bored with each other, you see. 316 00:13:33.299 --> 00:13:34.799 Do you really reckon? 317 00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:37.440 I think they've actually all had horrible exposure to Zigma 318 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:38.340 radiation. 319 00:13:38.399 --> 00:13:40.740 And they've all gone horribly wrong. 320 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:42.179 What did the doctor say about it? 321 00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:43.860 It's humanity? 322 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:44.700 Blind alley. 323 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:47.940 Yeah, humanity ends up its own scientific fundament of the 51st 324 00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:49.500 century and this story proves that. 325 00:13:49.620 --> 00:13:51.419 Yeah, so the guest cast are terrible. 326 00:13:51.480 --> 00:13:52.860 It's directed. 327 00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:54.720 It's directed by... 328 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:56.879 It's very rushed directing, it feels... 329 00:13:56.940 --> 00:13:57.840 Derek Flatt. 330 00:13:57.899 --> 00:14:01.080 Derek Goodwin, who never worked before or again on the program. 331 00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:04.860 But did do a behind the scenes guy, and then he moved into this 332 00:14:04.860 --> 00:14:05.039 one. 333 00:14:05.100 --> 00:14:08.039 He points his wife as the receptionist nurse. 334 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:09.120 Yeah, yeah, no. 335 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.720 He's most famous for directing a bunch of episodes of on the 336 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:13.019 buses. 337 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:14.039 Do you know what I mean? 338 00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:19.139 Like he's not... wouldn't Blakey have been great as the Michael 339 00:14:19.139 --> 00:14:20.279 Shoot character? 340 00:14:20.340 --> 00:14:21.960 Yeah, so he's terrible. 341 00:14:22.019 --> 00:14:24.899 Everything's directed really flatly and uninterestingly. 342 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:28.200 You want to hear something interesting about Derek Goodwin. 343 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.480 He had a third nipple. 344 00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:32.460 I'm sorry, I've clicked on the wrong name. 345 00:14:32.519 --> 00:14:35.399 I was going to say, every story he's worked, Tom, was by Bob Baker 346 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:37.200 and Dave Martin, and then I realised I was looking at the 347 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:38.700 Wikipedia entry for Dave Martin. 348 00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:43.440 I have a lot to say about the actual underlying point of this 349 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:43.740 story. 350 00:14:43.799 --> 00:14:45.120 Should we get to canine? 351 00:14:45.179 --> 00:14:49.620 Or are we still on, or are we still on Paul Leela, who's commented 352 00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:51.240 on us being a bit of a mongrel in this? 353 00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:53.039 Well, she's she's terrible. 354 00:14:53.100 --> 00:14:54.419 And again, is she? 355 00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:55.080 Yeah, yeah. 356 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:56.700 So, Leila varies. 357 00:14:56.759 --> 00:15:02.100 Like I'm not saying the acting is terrible, but both her and Tom 358 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:03.899 seem to be phoning it in a bit this week. 359 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.080 She's suffering a bit of the granddaughter complex in this one. 360 00:15:07.139 --> 00:15:10.139 Have you know, she's displaying Susan, like, powers. 361 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.500 She is able to sense the virus, even from within the TARDIS, and 362 00:15:13.500 --> 00:15:17.460 she seems to be time sensitive too about recognition of... 363 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:18.720 She can pilot the TARDIS. 364 00:15:18.779 --> 00:15:20.639 Yeah, what's that? 365 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.720 I think they've thought they're writing for Carol Anne Ford, which 366 00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:27.299 is probably why you're saying the character goes nowhere and she's 367 00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:28.559 ill served throughout the story. 368 00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:30.779 She gets very little to do. 369 00:15:30.779 --> 00:15:32.519 And she's stupid. 370 00:15:32.580 --> 00:15:33.840 And in fact, the doctor... 371 00:15:33.960 --> 00:15:35.940 Yeah, and this is what I don't like about how, thank you for 372 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:36.360 bringing that up. 373 00:15:36.419 --> 00:15:39.000 This is what I don't like how Williams has taken. 374 00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:42.360 He seems to be kind of not so much as Tom, but there's a similar 375 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:45.480 resentfulness to both of them as, you don't agree? 376 00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:49.620 I don't think he I don't think he likes having other people's 377 00:15:49.620 --> 00:15:50.580 characters in his show. 378 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:53.820 No, later on in the season, she's really good and it really 379 00:15:53.820 --> 00:15:55.080 depends on who the writer is. 380 00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:59.519 So if it's homes or voucher, she's great. 381 00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:01.440 In this, she's an idiot. 382 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.100 And in fact, Tom... an idiot too often this season, though 383 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:06.960 compared to how she how she was served. 384 00:16:07.019 --> 00:16:11.159 I mean, Tom theorises that the reason that she's immune to the 385 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:14.519 virus is that she's not very bright, essentially. 386 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:18.480 Well, the thing is, the line the doctor has given is that Leila is 387 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:19.500 all intuition. 388 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:21.960 He doesn't speculate as to her intelligence. 389 00:16:22.019 --> 00:16:25.620 He just kind of says, you know, whereas you or I would sit down 390 00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.299 and try and figure out the scientific formula. 391 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:29.460 Leila functions on whether she likes it or not. 392 00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:31.200 Her feet, her feeling. 393 00:16:31.259 --> 00:16:34.980 And the doctor's interpretation of that seems very respectful of 394 00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:37.200 the fact that Leila is very different to him. 395 00:16:37.259 --> 00:16:40.799 It's Marius and then everyone else afterwards who says, oh, perhaps 396 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:42.120 it's a matter of intelligence. 397 00:16:42.179 --> 00:16:46.559 And I think that was meant to be a very clever gag, but no one's 398 00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:48.539 told Tom that it's meant to be a gag. 399 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:52.320 So he just plays the line as normal and it adds Bob Baker and Dave 400 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.240 Martin again not picking up on something later on. 401 00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:56.759 In fact, that's not the reason, is it? 402 00:16:56.820 --> 00:17:02.460 It's her antibodies come from her ancestors. 403 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.960 Come from her ancestors, but she gives them to her ancestors. 404 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:11.160 And again, it's a really interesting time paradox concept that 405 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:12.299 isn't really commented on. 406 00:17:12.420 --> 00:17:15.960 So much isn't commented on, though, in this one. much of it should 407 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:16.440 be wonderful. 408 00:17:16.500 --> 00:17:18.180 It just really needs a bit of bob. 409 00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:19.859 I'm into it, don't you? 410 00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:21.059 And he was still working on it. 411 00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.740 Well, don't you feel it? 412 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:25.799 Yes, I can't really tell him here at all. 413 00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:28.140 Should we get to the cloning or are we still going? 414 00:17:28.140 --> 00:17:29.039 No, we're talking about the cloning. 415 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:30.180 Lovely canine. 416 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:32.339 Yeah, let's go on canine first. 417 00:17:32.460 --> 00:17:35.220 Okay, so April 77, it was being filmed. 418 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.279 Yeah, I know we've all said it a 100 times before, but, you know 419 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:39.240 Star Wars wasn't out. 420 00:17:39.299 --> 00:17:43.019 He wasn't based on R2D2. 421 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:44.640 No, but there were all... 422 00:17:44.700 --> 00:17:46.799 Was it based on Muffet from Battle Circle accidentally? 423 00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:47.819 No, that's 2 years later. 424 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:49.440 No, it was a one year later. 425 00:17:49.500 --> 00:17:54.539 No, it's, there were the sci-fi robots in um, in silent running 426 00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:55.680 with Bruce Stern. 427 00:17:55.740 --> 00:17:59.220 There have been kids, Q robots in SF. 428 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.220 Look, I like the idea that he was only going to be in it for one 429 00:18:02.220 --> 00:18:04.079 episode. for one story. 430 00:18:04.140 --> 00:18:09.359 And I really liked the idea of the Dobeman Pincer, Wizard of Oz 431 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.000 outfit that they... actually originally designed. 432 00:18:12.059 --> 00:18:13.980 I'd love to see a picture of that. 433 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:15.660 What they were going to dress a dog up as a robot. 434 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.480 John Leeson was going to actually be in the costume. 435 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:21.839 And, you know, he was doing the rehearsal on set and doing the 436 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:22.859 Times Cross with Tom. 437 00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:26.339 I think we've talked before about how Moffat from Battlestar 438 00:18:26.339 --> 00:18:28.319 Galactica was a chimp in a dog costume. 439 00:18:28.440 --> 00:18:30.420 It was sometimes. 440 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:31.980 Yeah, sometimes it was awesome. 441 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:35.160 That's a very unkind thing to say about John Lee. 442 00:18:35.339 --> 00:18:38.700 And again, that comes 78, 79. 443 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:42.059 So, yeah, it's, I don't know what to say about Kane. 444 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:43.259 I actually loved him as a boy. 445 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:47.039 I think he does too much and rescues the currier, but I like that 446 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.960 he's Aurak light. 447 00:18:49.019 --> 00:18:51.240 I like that he's irascible and cranky. 448 00:18:51.299 --> 00:18:55.200 He becomes much more like that next in 2 years time, doesn't he 449 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:56.819 when they can't get John Leeson back. 450 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.559 But his motor is really distractingly loud, really loud. 451 00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:04.559 It's not a great prop, is it, in retrospect? 452 00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:05.160 No. 453 00:19:05.220 --> 00:19:08.579 Well, you know that what his idea was to not have the bloke in 454 00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:08.759 it. 455 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:09.839 It was John Nathan Turnham. 456 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:10.380 Oh, right. 457 00:19:10.380 --> 00:19:11.700 And he came to regret it later. 458 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:14.460 He said, no, no, we can spend more money on this and keep it as an 459 00:19:14.460 --> 00:19:15.119 ongoing thing. 460 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:17.640 And then, of course, he had no money for stories later on. 461 00:19:17.700 --> 00:19:18.059 Yeah. 462 00:19:18.059 --> 00:19:22.980 Matt Ovine says that part of the problem was when he and I think 463 00:19:22.980 --> 00:19:24.660 it was Ian Scones were given the design brief. 464 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.940 It's like, look, we only need this to work for 4 weeks, it can 465 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:27.900 fall apart after that. 466 00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:30.240 And he has said since several times. 467 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:34.140 If we had have known then that they were considering keeping it on 468 00:19:34.140 --> 00:19:36.480 we would have constructed it very differently. 469 00:19:36.539 --> 00:19:40.019 We would have spent more money because we could argue that a bit 470 00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:42.299 would come out of the budget for this story and the next and the 471 00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:45.119 next and the next because, of course, canine was very expensive to 472 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.460 produce and it all came out of the invisible enemy budget. 473 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:50.519 But the budget runs out partly for that. 474 00:19:50.579 --> 00:19:54.119 I mean, don't they keep it to amortise the cost over the remaining 475 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:57.359 stories of the season and then they have to rebuild the prop again 476 00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:58.740 anyway for the following year. 477 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.079 Well, they had to rebuild it slightly for the sun makers. 478 00:20:01.140 --> 00:20:01.920 Right, yeah. 479 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:06.839 Because he started as normal dogs with lamp posts, canine with 480 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:07.680 cameras. 481 00:20:07.740 --> 00:20:10.319 Yeah, yeah, he used to run into the didn't he? 482 00:20:10.380 --> 00:20:12.480 And there is footage of that on the DVD. 483 00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:18.420 Oh, I'm going haywire, running off screen, and you just see the 484 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.539 sort of back end of him and he runs into something and you hear a 485 00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:22.619 cameraman go, ah. 486 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:28.079 Like, I think John Leeson is terrific and I think K9 is great. 487 00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:31.200 And you know, it just makes me happy. 488 00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.940 Now we're in the canine thing. 489 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.420 I've watched all the way through season 15 now, of course. and I 490 00:20:36.420 --> 00:20:38.819 love him in it and I love Leila with him. 491 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.519 They have an immediate rapport, aren't they? 492 00:20:41.579 --> 00:20:42.359 They really do. 493 00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:45.960 And you'll notice that canine goes into the TARDIS with Leila and 494 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:50.160 an invasion of time coming up, not to spoil it, but he seems to 495 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:52.559 still be Leila's dog, not the dog. 496 00:20:52.619 --> 00:20:53.819 Yeah, yeah, he's not the doctor's dog. 497 00:20:53.940 --> 00:20:54.420 Absolutely. 498 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.559 Canine Mark one. 499 00:20:55.619 --> 00:20:56.400 It not the doctor's dog. 500 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.759 And that's why he, spoiler alert, builds another one. right. 501 00:20:59.819 --> 00:21:03.000 Yes, he doesn't really seem to like the doctor anymore than the 502 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:03.539 last one. 503 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:05.400 That's not a bad thing. 504 00:21:05.460 --> 00:21:07.619 I think that's why canine really works for me. 505 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.400 You need a foil to the doctors, I'm going to say, to Tom's 506 00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:13.019 arrogance, to the doctor's arrogance. 507 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:19.079 Yeah, Leila can oppose him in the, you know, for humanity and for 508 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:22.380 morality, but you need someone to approach him on intellect. 509 00:21:22.380 --> 00:21:26.640 And I think that's where my doctor, Tom was my doctor, falls down 510 00:21:26.640 --> 00:21:30.299 in the season that his irascibility is overweening. 511 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:35.160 It actually goes further than it needs to and kind of, there's 512 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.160 contradiction with the, with the intention of the part. 513 00:21:38.220 --> 00:21:41.099 And I don't know that we actually end up disliking the doctor. 514 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:43.019 I don't think I've ever gone that far. 515 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:47.160 But, um, and, you know, you might argue that that irascibility is 516 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.859 exactly what propelled the writing of the 6th doctor. 517 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:52.200 People thought that that would be refreshing. 518 00:21:52.259 --> 00:21:54.480 But I don't know, how do you feel about it? 519 00:21:54.599 --> 00:21:58.920 Like we talked last week about how Tom being annoyed actually 520 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:01.799 helped the performance in Horror of Fang Rock. 521 00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:03.960 Here, I think he's just phoning it in. 522 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:05.460 I just don't think he's bothering. 523 00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:10.079 And I think both him and Louise. are not doing their best work. 524 00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:14.279 Tom also gets to spend a lot of time unconscious as well. 525 00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:15.180 Do you know what I mean? 526 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:16.500 Wrong me about his own head. 527 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:17.700 Yeah. 528 00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:19.859 Should we talk about the cloning? 529 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:20.759 Science Subway. 530 00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:22.980 I love to talk about the cloning because this, for me, is why it 531 00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:23.460 didn't work. 532 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:27.660 And even as a boy, I thought, hang on, they're saying 3922, was it 533 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:29.940 the Kilbracken technique that we've developed cloning? 534 00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:31.740 Oh, they only last 10 minutes. 535 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:36.059 How you could spawn a whole battle army in 10 minutes. 536 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:38.339 He says, oh, you know, it's a sideshow. 537 00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:40.920 There's no use for medical, you know, we don't use in medic 538 00:22:40.920 --> 00:22:41.940 medical treatments. 539 00:22:41.940 --> 00:22:45.720 Yet, you've got an enormous phone box there, which seems to the 540 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:49.019 only reason is that you can reduce people down, put them into a 541 00:22:49.019 --> 00:22:49.380 room. 542 00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.799 Oh, no, the reducing people down is because the doctors are being 543 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:53.519 out of the TARDS. 544 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:55.920 TARDIS, you think, OK. So the cloning couldn't have been used for 545 00:22:55.920 --> 00:22:57.059 that, but there must have been... 546 00:22:57.059 --> 00:23:01.200 So, come on, it's ridiculous to say this is, this is, I definitely 547 00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:02.460 think it's sigma energy. 548 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:04.500 They've all been crazy. 549 00:23:04.500 --> 00:23:06.480 All the sherbet sticks and sigma energy, yeah. 550 00:23:06.539 --> 00:23:08.819 So we're doing fantastic voyage, aren't we, essentially? 551 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.599 And we're doing it 100 years before the broadcast of Into the 552 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:16.380 Dalek from season eight, which did it very, very well. 553 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.180 You did, actually. 554 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.279 But this is not very good. 555 00:23:20.339 --> 00:23:23.940 And so it is one of those things where we're just throwing up yet 556 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:25.920 another idea in abandoning it. 557 00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:29.940 It's mostly confined to episode three and they only last 10 558 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:33.299 minutes, but they do seem to last the entirety of episode three. 559 00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:34.619 You know what? 560 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:38.700 The last time I watched it, I timed it? 561 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.160 I timed how long the clones were on screen. 562 00:23:41.220 --> 00:23:43.200 Wow, you don't get out very much. 563 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:45.059 I don't. 564 00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:48.539 But I timed how long they were on screen and it does tally. 565 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.259 If we take it that the clone scenes are happening at the same time 566 00:23:52.259 --> 00:23:54.240 as the real world scenes either side of them. 567 00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:56.519 The timeline actually tallies. 568 00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:58.079 Timelines are my thing as we know. 569 00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:00.779 Well, I just thought it was, it was an attempt. 570 00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.440 You know, it's what Chris Chibnell does in Hungary Earth, where he 571 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:08.400 just adds a bunch of countdowns in order to ramp up the 1010s. 572 00:24:08.460 --> 00:24:10.680 He said after he sang the theme to Casino Royale. 573 00:24:10.799 --> 00:24:11.519 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 574 00:24:11.579 --> 00:24:12.779 He was great in that too. 575 00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:13.799 Just terrific. 576 00:24:13.859 --> 00:24:19.259 There are some magical moments in the cloned sequences. 577 00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:23.279 The doctor and Leila yomping around the doctor's brain as silly as 578 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:27.299 it is, Tom and Louise are obviously having a lot of fun and their 579 00:24:27.299 --> 00:24:28.799 humour and interplay with that is great. 580 00:24:28.859 --> 00:24:31.259 And we get 10 it's terrific fun, yeah. 581 00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:34.680 And we get that beautiful moment where, which is why, I think, at 582 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:37.380 this point, they had definitely settled their differences, when 583 00:24:37.380 --> 00:24:40.079 they cross the mind brain interface and stare off into the void 584 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:42.960 and they get the wind machine and Lilo says, where are we going 585 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:43.259 doctor? 586 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:46.319 into the land of dreams and fantasies, Leila. 587 00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:48.480 And for me, that's the byline of the whole season. 588 00:24:48.539 --> 00:24:52.980 It would have been so great to take that somewhere as well. 589 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.039 You know, like the going about the brain isn't naturalistic at 590 00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:56.339 all. 591 00:24:56.400 --> 00:24:57.119 Do you know what I mean? 592 00:24:57.180 --> 00:24:59.579 Like they're not crawling through arteries or anything like that. 593 00:24:59.640 --> 00:25:01.619 Yeah, yeah, yeah. and it's funny. 594 00:25:01.619 --> 00:25:05.339 I can even breathe I mean, maybe clones don't need to breathe, but 595 00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:06.779 you know, there's no way they could at that score. 596 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:08.579 There's all these other things that just make no sense. 597 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:11.460 No, but it's Doctor Who, we don't care. exactly Well, the only way 598 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:14.640 you can is that it's an alternate reality in some way or that is 599 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:16.859 more of the Lewis Carroll through the rabbit hole. 600 00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.099 Well, it's the mind brain interface, I think, is the telling thing 601 00:25:20.099 --> 00:25:22.920 and they stare off into that void and there's all those columns 602 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:23.460 and stuff. 603 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:28.019 And so there's a kind of dualistic conception of it, the mind, the 604 00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:30.779 brain isn't purely organic, the mind isn't something the brain 605 00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:34.680 does, you know, they're separate entities that are kind of joined 606 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.619 together and you could actually travel from one to the other. 607 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.759 And I think all of that stuff is lovely and it gets like a scene 608 00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:46.140 you know, and it's never developed. that's what Baker and Martin 609 00:25:46.140 --> 00:25:46.619 do. 610 00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:50.640 They don't, last year, we complained about hand fear where they 611 00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:51.779 had no ideas at all. 612 00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:55.859 Here they have a whole bunch of ideas, that they just dredge up 613 00:25:55.859 --> 00:25:59.400 fling at the screen for 5 minutes and then abandon, you know? 614 00:25:59.460 --> 00:26:00.539 and so nothing gets developed. 615 00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:01.680 There's nothing satisfying. 616 00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:04.859 The invisible enemy doesn't seem to be about anything. 617 00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:08.400 Richard, do you think the story might have been better if the 618 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:10.619 whole thing had been the fantastic voyage? 619 00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.220 Oh, because the case with so many Bob Baker and Dave Martin 620 00:26:14.220 --> 00:26:17.279 stories, Would it have been better if it had just been one of the 621 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:20.460 4 or 5 stories they're throwing up on screen, as Nathan's saying? 622 00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:22.980 I think it would have been a lot better with different writers 623 00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:23.460 involved. 624 00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:27.240 Different directors, maybe a different set designer. 625 00:26:27.299 --> 00:26:28.680 It's such an interesting question. 626 00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:30.059 What comes first? 627 00:26:30.180 --> 00:26:31.799 What actually makes the story work? 628 00:26:31.859 --> 00:26:32.940 Is it the direction? 629 00:26:32.940 --> 00:26:34.859 Is it the cast? 630 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:36.480 Is it, the design? 631 00:26:36.539 --> 00:26:40.079 It's kind of cardo intuitive for me, but it seems to be that they 632 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:42.119 work when everyone is working together. 633 00:26:42.180 --> 00:26:46.079 But then I haven't seen a story I haven't liked, that Paddy 634 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:47.039 Russell has done. 635 00:26:47.099 --> 00:26:50.400 I haven't seen a story that I thought was unsuccessful that Dougie 636 00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:51.059 Canfield did. 637 00:26:51.119 --> 00:26:54.299 So maybe it does come down to direction in the end. 638 00:26:54.359 --> 00:26:57.180 As I say, you can none of these people, and this is the difference 639 00:26:57.180 --> 00:26:58.140 of 70s actors. 640 00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:01.019 They'd all been doing rep for at least a year, 18 months before 641 00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:03.720 they gone on to a show like this, which means they've played every 642 00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:07.559 single part of every tutoring play that was around that time. 643 00:27:07.619 --> 00:27:10.380 So they do have the range if they need to. 644 00:27:10.440 --> 00:27:12.539 They're just not given a chance to shine. 645 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.819 And we've certainly seen these actors like Michael Shed. 646 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:16.980 And Frederick Yeger. 647 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:20.579 And Freddie Yega, who can be terrific and nuanced and, oh, my 648 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:21.000 goodness. 649 00:27:21.059 --> 00:27:23.579 I think the fact that he's wearing a school protractor on his face 650 00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:24.059 probably. 651 00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:24.900 Yeah, yeah. 652 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.920 Well, I think it's a giant intersection of everyone having their 653 00:27:28.920 --> 00:27:34.859 worst possible day, combined with, you know, some crummy old Zen 654 00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:37.440 cars director who will never work on the show again. 655 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:41.519 Like I just think it's a huge, it's a huge mess. 656 00:27:41.579 --> 00:27:43.259 And then there's the prawn off. 657 00:27:43.319 --> 00:27:46.440 Well, so this is a particularly horny prawn, isn't it? 658 00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:49.380 Because all it can talk about is the need to spawn. 659 00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:54.000 And this is a theme that comes in episode one where all of these 660 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:56.759 men, they're very keen to breed. 661 00:27:56.819 --> 00:27:59.819 They're constantly talking about how they want to breed and then 662 00:27:59.819 --> 00:28:00.539 the prawn. 663 00:28:00.599 --> 00:28:02.279 He's gagging for it. 664 00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:06.240 I mean, you know, like, it's twitching in anxiety about the need 665 00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:08.039 to get off the entire time. 666 00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:10.619 Sullivan was still in these stories because you know, he'd be 667 00:28:10.619 --> 00:28:12.299 qualified to work on space sailors. 668 00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:14.579 They'll be very much... 669 00:28:14.700 --> 00:28:16.259 What I do like about this story. 670 00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:19.799 And I didn't notice it as a child, of course, is that the basic 671 00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:24.599 premise seems to be a moral balance between humanity and every 672 00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:28.680 other form of life, that humanity's burgeoning growth and diaspora 673 00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:32.700 is no different from the replication of a virus. 674 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:35.700 And again, I'm back to Robert Erlich's population bomb theories. 675 00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:39.480 The virus is as much right to swarm and multiplies as the human 676 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:40.319 species. 677 00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:45.000 And Tom, actually, there's an argument that they have. between the 678 00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.359 2 of them, the doctor and the, I think it's one that's a melanoma 679 00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:48.720 isn't it? 680 00:28:48.779 --> 00:28:51.299 That's stupid... 681 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:52.200 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 682 00:28:52.200 --> 00:28:53.880 Cat poo effect that it does. 683 00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:58.500 So, but therefore the doctor has the right to dispose of the virus 684 00:28:58.500 --> 00:28:59.160 equally. 685 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:00.480 You see where that moral argument goes? 686 00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:03.779 That's almost something thematic, isn't it? 687 00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.359 Like it's the time of humanity's great breakout. 688 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.019 It's nearly the time of the prawns great breakout, but it's not a 689 00:29:10.019 --> 00:29:11.279 very interesting moral. 690 00:29:11.339 --> 00:29:12.119 Do you know what I mean? 691 00:29:12.180 --> 00:29:13.140 But it is something. 692 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.680 Someone's paying attention fitfully to the script. 693 00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:17.700 You would think so. 694 00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:20.880 But then later, the doctor states that the virus has to be stopped 695 00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:25.740 because it threatens the macro world of the humans, as much as the 696 00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:27.420 micro world of other viruses. 697 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:30.299 So therefore, ethics has scale. 698 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:32.519 And I just don't see how that can be a problem. 699 00:29:32.579 --> 00:29:34.559 Yeah, it breaks out of its sort of natural place. 700 00:29:34.619 --> 00:29:36.900 Which is the most stupid thing to do because it's now really 701 00:29:36.900 --> 00:29:37.680 easily bumped off. 702 00:29:37.740 --> 00:29:38.819 Yeah, yeah. 703 00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:39.599 Why did it do that? 704 00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:40.980 Because it's called hubris, I guess. 705 00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:41.819 It wants to be. 706 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:45.059 I should have had it been its own star. 707 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:49.259 I just love that it's wheeling around on it, the raw prawl. 708 00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.740 It gets the raw prawn award for my season, complete with its own 709 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.299 mounting base and casters. 710 00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:56.160 And they have cast. 711 00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:57.779 It has cast. 712 00:29:57.839 --> 00:29:59.339 Oh, Yatick, my love, where are you? 713 00:29:59.400 --> 00:30:02.819 Well, of course, it's John Scott Martin inside it. 714 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:05.819 I was hoping it was Stuart Furlow, indeed, Tony Starr. 715 00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:07.200 That would have made it very different. 716 00:30:07.319 --> 00:30:11.099 And has those Alpha Centauri arms too, where it has 3 arms on each 717 00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:12.960 side all linked together by string? 718 00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:17.759 So the actor who only has 2 arms or one arm on each side can 719 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:18.539 operate them all. 720 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:19.500 You know what I mean? 721 00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:20.279 That's right. 722 00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:22.500 Because the Alpha Centauri character was so successful. 723 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.180 They already brought it back again. 724 00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.000 They reincarnated it as this one. yeah. 725 00:30:27.059 --> 00:30:29.460 I mean, is it so good? 726 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:31.619 It's hilarious and funny. 727 00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:32.819 No, because it's not fun. 728 00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:33.960 It's not fun. 729 00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:35.039 I mean, it's a boy. 730 00:30:35.099 --> 00:30:37.140 Okay, because we were lucky we were their 1st time round. 731 00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:38.279 What did we think of it then? 732 00:30:38.759 --> 00:30:41.880 No, I can't remember having a strong opinion. 733 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:42.599 I don't remember. 734 00:30:42.599 --> 00:30:46.440 The only thing I remember of this story is canine. and that I had 735 00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:49.559 to hurriedly go and build yet another TARDIS set, because they've 736 00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:51.299 reached, they've changed the console room. 737 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:51.720 That's it. 738 00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:54.779 I didn't actually own the story as a child. 739 00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:56.160 I didn't see it until my teenage years. 740 00:30:56.220 --> 00:31:00.119 So I don't have childhood nostalgia for it, which you may notice. 741 00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:02.940 Usually I'm the 1st with a crap story to go, oh, isn't it 742 00:31:02.940 --> 00:31:03.900 wonderful and isn't it lovely? 743 00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:06.359 No, I'm very much aware of the limitations of this one. 744 00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.279 How did you feel when you 1st saw it now? 745 00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:09.779 You know, I still enjoyed it. 746 00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:13.259 But I saw a lot, a lot of problems. 747 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:16.319 And actually, Todd's taking this as his queue to fly in for a 748 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.900 moment and restate something he said last season. 749 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:23.279 Well, guys, I stand by my statement that Bob Baker and Dave Martin 750 00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.339 write 2 pretty good episodes of Doctor Who a year. 751 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.980 After that, well, it's anybody's business. 752 00:31:29.039 --> 00:31:32.160 And I must say this, I actually quite enjoy the 1st couple of 753 00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:33.240 episodes of this story. 754 00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:37.440 But in episode three, things just start to go horribly wrong. 755 00:31:37.500 --> 00:31:40.980 I actually don't have a problem with the prawn prop, which I think 756 00:31:40.980 --> 00:31:42.059 is really well realised. 757 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:46.319 It's that stupid, black clothed, one clawed thing at the end of 758 00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:50.160 episode three, which I just think is absolutely diabolical. 759 00:31:50.279 --> 00:31:52.740 And how much noise does K9 make? 760 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.259 Oh, look, that's all the time I've got time for. 761 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:57.480 I've got to go outside and exercise leaking. 762 00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:00.720 So, guys... 763 00:32:00.779 --> 00:32:02.400 Todd's very generous giving them two. 764 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:08.220 So, yeah, we have the first four episodes of eight that Bob Baker 765 00:32:08.220 --> 00:32:09.359 and Dave Martin write this year. 766 00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:10.859 And it occurs to me this story. 767 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:14.099 It's a four-part story, but really, it's 4 one parts. 768 00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:18.720 You know, you've got the mystery of Titan Base and the doctor 769 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:19.619 being taken over. 770 00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.660 That's one story and that's kind of dealt with. 771 00:32:21.720 --> 00:32:23.819 And then you've got the doctor being treated in hospital while the 772 00:32:23.819 --> 00:32:25.319 virus spreads and that's the 2nd story. 773 00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:26.940 Then you've got fantastic voyage. 774 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:29.700 Then you've got the more typical Doctor Who monster thing, where 775 00:32:29.700 --> 00:32:32.339 it's the doctor versus the monster who wants to take over 776 00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:32.880 humanity. 777 00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.660 I mean, that is a problem with the story, isn't it? 778 00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:38.579 But it can't settle on what it's about. 779 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.819 Is this the last year that they work on the program? 780 00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:43.980 No, they're back for the key to time. 781 00:32:44.039 --> 00:32:45.900 What wonder do they do in that? 782 00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:47.220 Armageddon factor. 783 00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.200 God, they're so terrible. 784 00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:50.759 They were terrible. 785 00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:51.660 Who's hiring? 786 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:56.220 Williams trusted them with that one because they've, you know 787 00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:58.140 they've got such great tenure. 788 00:32:58.200 --> 00:32:58.920 But I mean, we can cheat. 789 00:32:58.980 --> 00:33:02.519 They're really bad and they used to be good. 790 00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:04.740 Like a Midlands Hall, quick and cheap. 791 00:33:04.799 --> 00:33:10.319 But they've done hand of fear, and invisible enemy, and underworld 792 00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:14.279 and the Armageddon factor, and then got to be contestants for the 793 00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.079 worst stories about... 794 00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:17.759 You did it here first. 795 00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:19.440 You know, they are bad. 796 00:33:19.500 --> 00:33:22.500 Like, I, you know, like I bitched about them before this. 797 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.619 I just don't think I'd realised the full scale of their 798 00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:28.799 incompetence and utter utter evil. 799 00:33:29.880 --> 00:33:33.240 Is this the 1st time Nathan and I have actually sat on the same 800 00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:34.440 side of the table on this? 801 00:33:34.500 --> 00:33:40.980 As a boy, I kind of, I did enjoy these because this is how I was 802 00:33:40.980 --> 00:33:42.599 writing my fanfic. 803 00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:45.059 However, I was 10. 804 00:33:45.779 --> 00:33:49.440 And that's really all I can say in its defence. 805 00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:53.039 So, yeah, I think Nathan and I are sitting on the same sofa of 806 00:33:53.039 --> 00:33:54.240 reasonable comfort for this one. 807 00:33:55.140 --> 00:33:56.819 How about you? 808 00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:04.319 Oh, look, yeah, guys, for once we found a story that we all agree 809 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:07.920 is bad, because quite often we will all agree that a story is good 810 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:09.480 especially if it had Barbara in it. 811 00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:14.280 But, um, yeah, this is one that, as much as I love the Williams 812 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:19.019 era, and I do adore the Williams, I think this is, I think this is 813 00:34:19.019 --> 00:34:21.599 the biggest misfire of the 70s so far. 814 00:34:21.719 --> 00:34:22.440 Really? 815 00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:23.880 Well, so far. 816 00:34:24.360 --> 00:34:25.679 Yeah. 817 00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:26.639 They're still underworld. 818 00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.039 And you know how much I didn't like them. 819 00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:31.380 Mutants like Bob Baker and Dave Martin. 820 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:32.340 Which, see, I did like that. 821 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:33.300 Yeah, I liked it too. 822 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:37.679 I like Axos. terrible in many ways. 823 00:34:37.739 --> 00:34:39.780 Well, but Axos is just a disco I want to hang out. 824 00:34:39.900 --> 00:34:40.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 825 00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:44.280 Plus both of those have really quite relevant and well-stated 826 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:45.300 social commentary. 827 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:47.280 Yeah, they do, especially mutants. 828 00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:49.139 I think that was really fresh It still is. 829 00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.179 This has a giant prawn on a skateboard. 830 00:34:51.239 --> 00:34:53.880 Which should be everything you've ever wanted. 831 00:34:53.940 --> 00:34:54.900 Sounds delicious. 832 00:35:08.460 --> 00:35:12.239 Unfortunately, or perhaps, thankfully, that's all the time we have 833 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:13.860 to spend at the Baiowl Foundation. 834 00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:17.639 I have so much more today. about how much I hate this story. 835 00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:22.440 Please switch over to ABC 2 for Nathan's extended analysis. 836 00:35:22.500 --> 00:35:26.340 Don't forget, you can find us online at flatthroughentirety.com 837 00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:29.940 flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast 838 00:35:29.940 --> 00:35:31.260 on Twitter. 839 00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:34.500 Next Saturday, we release our commentary on Bondfinger for 840 00:35:34.500 --> 00:35:37.980 Thunderball, which is possibly the invisible enemy of James Bond 841 00:35:37.980 --> 00:35:38.940 films. 842 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:41.880 So you can check that out on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on 843 00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:44.820 Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter. 844 00:35:44.940 --> 00:35:49.139 So until we see you for Bondfinger or for Doctor Who, may all your 845 00:35:49.139 --> 00:35:51.840 prawns not try to take you over with a deadly virus. 846 00:35:51.900 --> 00:35:53.219 Thank you very much and good night. 847 00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:53.940 Good night. 848 00:35:54.059 --> 00:35:56.039 I'll just chuck a virus on the Barbie. 849 00:35:56.099 --> 00:35:56.579 See you soon. 850 00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:03.360 That words flight to entirety, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones and 851 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:04.199 Richard Stone. 852 00:36:04.320 --> 00:36:08.639 This episode, Ren and Stinky, was recorded on the 27th of 853 00:36:08.639 --> 00:36:09.960 September 2015. 854 00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.559 The next episode will be released on November the 8th. 855 00:36:13.619 --> 00:36:16.320 The scales may have fallen from our eyes on this one. 856 00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:18.360 If they were ever on there to begin with. 857 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:31.860 Fish people, did we mention that's gone fish people?