WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:00:38 1 00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:33.539 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety 2 00:00:33.539 --> 00:00:38.460 the only Doctor Who podcast produced exclusively for work units. 3 00:00:38.520 --> 00:00:39.060 Praise the company. 4 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:39.780 I'm Brandon. 5 00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:40.500 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:43.619 I'm a sever team steamed dumpling for this. 7 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:47.820 And 17 steamed dumplings are only served in Macropolis 6 in the 8 00:00:47.820 --> 00:00:48.539 Sunmakers. 9 00:00:48.659 --> 00:00:50.700 Or is it McGroppos one? 10 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:55.259 I'd love to say I love this story. 11 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:56.280 Do you all love this story? 12 00:00:56.340 --> 00:00:57.240 Yeah, I do. 13 00:00:57.299 --> 00:00:59.939 If Nathan's not gonna find it tiresome, I'll have to jump in. 14 00:01:00.000 --> 00:01:01.020 It should be great. 15 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:05.340 It's Louise's favourite story, but, you know, as a boy. 16 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:09.000 There are lovely moments and beautiful lions, but this is the kind 17 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.420 of the point for me that some shows are better done by Nick Briggs 18 00:01:12.420 --> 00:01:13.920 on Big Finish and this is one of them. 19 00:01:13.980 --> 00:01:17.579 When they don't have a budget, you've got to sit and look at it. 20 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:20.280 And I'm sorry, you've also got to look at people standing in a car 21 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:22.500 park with a few machines going blink, blink. 22 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.680 The arguments between Manfred, if that's what his name, Manfred 23 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.620 Mann and everybody else, about who's going to be the most vicious 24 00:01:28.620 --> 00:01:33.239 underling in a, no, my dad's bigger than yours and I'm going to 25 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:33.780 get you first. 26 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:36.719 Oh, do you mean, do you mean Ventris from heartbeat? 27 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:37.920 Oh, God. 28 00:01:37.980 --> 00:01:39.060 It's interminable. 29 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:40.739 So yes, I get to be Nathan today. 30 00:01:40.859 --> 00:01:44.159 I think it's just because the costumes look like a blue Peter 31 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:48.060 puppet theatre reimagining a Fritzlang's metropolis, but with 32 00:01:48.060 --> 00:01:49.500 bumblebees. 33 00:01:49.560 --> 00:01:53.879 Like the, I know that the, um, the gatherer, how it is meant to be 34 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:56.519 an Aztec thing in their very Aztec moments. 35 00:01:56.579 --> 00:01:58.079 Okay, let's talk about why this is great. 36 00:01:58.140 --> 00:01:59.579 Isn't it good? 37 00:02:00.659 --> 00:02:04.560 I thought I might take the opportunity to leap in and agree with 38 00:02:04.560 --> 00:02:05.700 you on some of these things. 39 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:07.260 This is the story I like. 40 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:09.300 That might be my favourite story of the season. 41 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:14.460 But the production is lamentably bad. 42 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:18.419 And it's it's something that they seem to get right next season. 43 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:20.879 I think next season has more hits. 44 00:02:20.939 --> 00:02:24.780 You know, they can't have any more money, but it just generally 45 00:02:24.780 --> 00:02:25.439 looks better. 46 00:02:25.500 --> 00:02:26.819 But here the production fails. 47 00:02:26.879 --> 00:02:28.560 Those white corridors are terrible. 48 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:32.759 And I've got lots to say about the longest white corridor in 49 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:34.560 Doctor Who history before or after. 50 00:02:34.620 --> 00:02:37.919 That is the longest corridor shot you'll ever see and don't you 51 00:02:37.919 --> 00:02:39.659 feel every single centimetre of it? 52 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:43.259 You wonder why they do. shoot that on videotape too, so that it 53 00:02:43.259 --> 00:02:45.840 looks like, you know, it's an interior. 54 00:02:45.900 --> 00:02:46.860 They've done that before. 55 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:48.659 You're right about next season. 56 00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.319 I think that there'll be a big change, the big difference now that 57 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:56.280 those budget blowouts from Hinchcliffe and his epicanthic folds. 58 00:02:56.340 --> 00:02:59.039 How much do latex epicanthic folds actually cost? 59 00:02:59.099 --> 00:03:03.539 Very, very expensive and they will cost you your soul as well. 60 00:03:03.599 --> 00:03:04.560 Well, and they did. 61 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:07.620 Well, plus every time John Bennett blinked, he'd tear the mask in 62 00:03:07.620 --> 00:03:07.860 too. 63 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:08.460 So, you know. 64 00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:11.460 Yeah, well, apparently, yeah, you're probably covered with Todd 65 00:03:11.460 --> 00:03:15.240 that Weng Chung, that terrific 80s group, just paying them for the 66 00:03:15.240 --> 00:03:19.620 rights, for the name, talents, chewed up so much of the budget for 67 00:03:19.620 --> 00:03:19.979 the future. 68 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:23.580 Isn't Hinchcliffe a monster if we haven't even covered that yet. 69 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.280 This is the 3rd companion who was going to be killed. 70 00:03:26.340 --> 00:03:28.979 Leila was going to be absolutely minced in this one. 71 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:30.719 Were they going to steam? 72 00:03:30.780 --> 00:03:31.199 Yep. 73 00:03:31.259 --> 00:03:33.300 She was actually going, I don't know about the final thing. 74 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:35.699 We'll have to look up the notes again to check, but she was going 75 00:03:35.699 --> 00:03:36.060 to die. 76 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.879 The brig was going to die in the original hand of fear, writing. 77 00:03:39.000 --> 00:03:41.759 And of course, Sarah was going to be killed in Seeds of Doom in 78 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:43.139 the compost mincer. 79 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:43.560 Yeah. 80 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.979 Although, this was actually Graham Williams, considering killing 81 00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:47.460 Leila. 82 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:49.740 So they were considering killing her in the steam sequence. 83 00:03:49.800 --> 00:03:53.939 So they were going to subvert the usual cliffhanger by having the 84 00:03:53.939 --> 00:03:58.259 companion die instead, and then Robert Holmes objected, because he 85 00:03:58.259 --> 00:04:00.539 was still around, and he wrote this script on his way out. 86 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.500 This year, this is actually, even though it's noted as Tony Reed 87 00:04:04.500 --> 00:04:07.860 as Anthony Reed, it's actually Holmes's last full job of doing 88 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:09.000 everything, apparently. 89 00:04:09.060 --> 00:04:13.020 And also, they were considering killing Leila in the collector's 90 00:04:13.020 --> 00:04:13.500 office. 91 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:15.840 You know, when they Leila runs through that door when the doctor 92 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:17.399 tells her not to when she gets zapped. 93 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:18.720 Yeah, that is strange. 94 00:04:18.779 --> 00:04:20.279 I'm not surprised to hear that actually. 95 00:04:20.339 --> 00:04:22.259 Yeah, yeah, they were considering killing her. 96 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.800 How do you both feel that would have worked out on screen 97 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:29.699 considering the tone of the rest of the season and the impact of 98 00:04:29.699 --> 00:04:31.079 Leela herself as a character? 99 00:04:31.139 --> 00:04:33.660 That would have, it would have just been a terrible idea. 100 00:04:33.959 --> 00:04:35.519 In my opinion. 101 00:04:35.579 --> 00:04:37.259 It sounds like an episode of Blake 7. 102 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:38.519 Yes, yeah. 103 00:04:38.579 --> 00:04:40.379 We'll get to that because... 104 00:04:40.379 --> 00:04:42.660 This is almost an episode of Blake 7. 105 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:44.220 I'm kind of loading that statement. 106 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:45.540 It's even got Villa in it. 107 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:46.920 He's great. 108 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:48.600 Marvocating his gallantry. 109 00:04:48.660 --> 00:04:52.500 It's got the woman who plays Vit is in a blanket. 110 00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:53.699 Which is a hair removal cream. 111 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:54.480 Yeah, yeah. 112 00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:55.379 It's Australia. 113 00:04:55.439 --> 00:05:00.420 Yes, if I wanted, it's a dilipatory cream and a new series of 114 00:05:00.420 --> 00:05:02.279 Julia Louis Dreyfus. 115 00:05:02.339 --> 00:05:03.300 I think it might be V. 116 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:04.439 Yeah, same difference. 117 00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:07.860 It's also got Tom Kelly in it, who we've mentioned before. 118 00:05:07.920 --> 00:05:09.959 So he was killed over the face of evil. 119 00:05:10.019 --> 00:05:11.040 He is Nova. 120 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:13.439 So he gets stuck in a wall by Leila in the face of evil. 121 00:05:13.500 --> 00:05:15.720 He gets stuck in a wall in the 1st episode of Blake 7. 122 00:05:15.779 --> 00:05:19.199 He gets stuck in barbed wire in the 2nd sapphire and steel story 123 00:05:19.199 --> 00:05:23.879 and here he gets stuck under a mound of work units, revolting work 124 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:24.779 units, right? 125 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:27.420 I can't complain about variation of career prospects. 126 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:28.620 Is this his very last performance? 127 00:05:28.740 --> 00:05:30.060 No, he appeared. 128 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:35.220 He appears in the invasion of time, and his appearance are... 129 00:05:35.220 --> 00:05:38.759 Under a sand dune, under a piece of moulded fibreglass furniture. 130 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:41.579 Well, it gets trapped in some tin foil in the invasion. 131 00:05:41.819 --> 00:05:43.860 Todd would... 132 00:05:43.860 --> 00:05:44.639 Can't wait for that one. 133 00:05:45.300 --> 00:05:47.759 Richard, we have a rare occurrency. 134 00:05:47.819 --> 00:05:48.959 Todd agrees with you. 135 00:05:49.019 --> 00:05:51.120 And he's about the flying in and he can comment. 136 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:51.959 It's very common. 137 00:05:52.019 --> 00:05:55.199 Well, come, there's no surprise to you that as a child, I really 138 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:59.100 dislike this story as much as the other Robert Holmes classic, The 139 00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:00.060 Carnival of the Monsters. 140 00:06:00.180 --> 00:06:02.759 And I would have given this one two out of 10 as well. 141 00:06:02.819 --> 00:06:07.259 I really, really disliked all the stuff underground, and I really 142 00:06:07.259 --> 00:06:08.699 thought it looked really cheap. 143 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:10.379 But I did quite like mine. 144 00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:14.699 In my mature, well, in my old age, well, in my middle age, I 145 00:06:14.699 --> 00:06:17.459 actually think this is a really funny script, and I think there's 146 00:06:17.459 --> 00:06:20.399 some wonderful performances, especially by those underground. 147 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:25.259 But I ask you, what audience is Bob Holmes actually directing this 148 00:06:25.259 --> 00:06:25.800 story too? 149 00:06:25.860 --> 00:06:28.620 Because I actually don't think it's the traditional Doctor Who 150 00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:29.279 audience. 151 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:31.800 All right, well, look, I've got some cooking to do. 152 00:06:31.860 --> 00:06:33.360 I've gotta go and put a turkey in the oven. 153 00:06:33.420 --> 00:06:36.240 I have to let it baste in its own juices. and I don't want it to 154 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:37.319 overcook and get too dry. 155 00:06:37.379 --> 00:06:40.500 Well, it doesn't really matter, because next week, I'm going to be 156 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:43.980 serving up turkey, whether it's dry or moist, a turkey is still a 157 00:06:43.980 --> 00:06:44.399 turkey. 158 00:06:44.459 --> 00:06:46.680 Todd nailed it twice. 159 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:47.519 Thank you, Todd. 160 00:06:47.579 --> 00:06:49.079 We have to thank Pennant Roberts. 161 00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:50.459 He got a lot of the director of the story. 162 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:55.740 Got a lot of, you know, slack later on in fan circles, for, I 163 00:06:55.740 --> 00:06:58.620 think, mostly for his '80s stories, which didn't quite hold up so 164 00:06:58.620 --> 00:07:00.480 well, and there's a reason for that, and I don't think it's 165 00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:01.139 pennant robbers. 166 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:02.279 He's good here. 167 00:07:02.339 --> 00:07:04.019 Well I don't know that he's terribly bad. 168 00:07:04.079 --> 00:07:08.459 I just think there's no budget and no time, but there is one line 169 00:07:08.459 --> 00:07:11.579 he makes, which is gorgeous, but, um, Pennant Roberts, the 170 00:07:11.579 --> 00:07:14.519 character of man was written for a man, and Pennant Robinson, every 171 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:18.300 story he's done has replaced the major secondary character with a 172 00:07:18.300 --> 00:07:20.759 female actor, and full points for that. 173 00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:23.519 It is a... 174 00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:25.800 She's not a great actor that she's the secretary, though. 175 00:07:25.860 --> 00:07:26.519 Do you know what I mean? 176 00:07:26.579 --> 00:07:28.680 Yeah, but she's also called... 177 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:29.279 Look, I agree. 178 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.860 Um, you know, I like her a lot. 179 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:34.379 I think she's terrific, and there's a moment where the collector 180 00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:37.560 is getting very excited about the prospect of steaming Leila. 181 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:40.680 There's a website for that. 182 00:07:40.740 --> 00:07:45.720 She's kind of horrified by him and scared of him and she sells 183 00:07:45.720 --> 00:07:46.379 that really well. 184 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:50.939 And her final scene where she's deciding to join the rebels. 185 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:52.680 She's also really funny in that scene. 186 00:07:52.740 --> 00:07:55.019 I think she's good No, look, she's superb. 187 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:57.300 I can see why Louise loves loves this so much. 188 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:58.620 Pennant Roberts, the other line. 189 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:02.279 We go back to the corridors, is he said, you know, this was filmed 190 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:05.759 at the big old tobacco factory outside of London. 191 00:08:05.819 --> 00:08:07.319 It was called, what was it called? 192 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:12.300 the Hartcliffe whiffy or something, but it was trying to tell the 193 00:08:12.300 --> 00:08:17.939 actors how to stomp about under PCH, you know, the pentosylenic 194 00:08:17.939 --> 00:08:21.180 methyl hydrine gas, which invests an experiment with its school. 195 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:24.000 It's the, you know, it's the dental thing. 196 00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:26.399 But anyway, wandering about with, with that. 197 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:28.319 He said, and they said, well, you know, how do you want us to do 198 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:28.500 it? 199 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:31.199 one of the, you know, fortunate extras. he was trying to make his 200 00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:31.560 mark. 201 00:08:31.620 --> 00:08:33.899 Just look around at all the workers here in this factory. 202 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:36.299 And I doubt that they're just smoking tobacco. 203 00:08:36.899 --> 00:08:40.139 They were looking so bored and wondering for their jobs to die. 204 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:41.879 Pileen 50 actually. 205 00:08:41.940 --> 00:08:43.019 Exactly. 206 00:08:43.080 --> 00:08:46.440 If we can just throw back to why Todd, the 2nd point of Todd's 207 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:48.480 question is that he doesn't like this as a boy. 208 00:08:48.539 --> 00:08:52.740 I did like this as a boy, but it was also instantly forgettable 209 00:08:52.740 --> 00:08:55.440 and I think the 2 reasons it really works is the backup cast are 210 00:08:55.440 --> 00:08:58.019 so strong because Roberts cares about his actors. 211 00:08:58.080 --> 00:08:59.879 It's a great audio script. 212 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:02.940 It should exist in the mind or have you got your drink ready? 213 00:09:02.940 --> 00:09:07.500 Or as directed by Lang or Manao as a German expressionist film. 214 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:09.240 Those. 215 00:09:09.299 --> 00:09:09.539 Thank you. 216 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:11.460 Those white so long away. 217 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:12.600 It's been so long away. 218 00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:15.779 Those white corridors would have been beautiful with some 219 00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:19.799 projections on them and just cut the lighting and make 220 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:20.700 everything. 221 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:23.820 You've got beautiful long white corridors are brilliant for 222 00:09:23.820 --> 00:09:25.259 projecting shadows onto. 223 00:09:25.259 --> 00:09:27.840 And all the great directors of the silent era and the early black 224 00:09:27.840 --> 00:09:28.980 and white know the same thing. 225 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:30.720 Cut all the lights, throw some things in. 226 00:09:30.779 --> 00:09:33.960 You didn't need to spend half the budget on the go-go gadget 227 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:34.500 mobile. 228 00:09:34.500 --> 00:09:38.820 Mystery van thing that they're all trundling around in at .3 K an 229 00:09:38.820 --> 00:09:40.080 hour trying to look terrible.ied. 230 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:42.240 Independent Roberts can direct. 231 00:09:42.539 --> 00:09:44.460 It's so stupid. 232 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:48.600 But it's great because you can recreate it in Legos, as Brendan's 233 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:51.059 already done for us with our dimensions game. gone on the table. 234 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:53.100 Yeah, so lighting really lets it down. 235 00:09:53.159 --> 00:09:55.679 Pennant Roberts, I think, is a great actor and theatre director. 236 00:09:55.740 --> 00:09:59.940 He's not a great visual director, and it's so unwatchable because 237 00:09:59.940 --> 00:10:03.299 I've always said Doctor Who, it's not what it looks like, but I 238 00:10:03.299 --> 00:10:03.600 was wrong. 239 00:10:03.659 --> 00:10:04.139 I was wrong. 240 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:07.200 If this was a relationship, we'd all be in counselling now. 241 00:10:07.259 --> 00:10:07.620 I was wrong. 242 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.360 It's almost unwatchable. 243 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.440 See, I agree with you to a point, certainly with the film 244 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:14.460 sequences. 245 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.940 But in the studio, I do think Pennant is trying to get that 246 00:10:17.940 --> 00:10:19.500 expressionistic side. 247 00:10:19.620 --> 00:10:22.139 Like, if you look at Gatherer Hayes' office, It's sort of a bunch 248 00:10:22.139 --> 00:10:24.240 of freestanding shapes in a black volume. 249 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:25.080 On a negative space. 250 00:10:25.139 --> 00:10:29.159 Lots of negative space. same in the steaming room and similar in 251 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:31.379 the collector's office, which is a bit lighter, but you've got all 252 00:10:31.379 --> 00:10:34.500 those wonderful panels, which, again, are evoking that sun 253 00:10:34.500 --> 00:10:35.100 symbol. 254 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:38.460 Yeah, and it works that kind of that kind of idea of just using 255 00:10:38.460 --> 00:10:41.639 flats and drapes works so well in celestial toy maker. 256 00:10:41.700 --> 00:10:43.799 It's obvious that it should have worked as well again. 257 00:10:43.860 --> 00:10:45.899 I'm absolutely giving no shrift on this. 258 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:50.279 I mean, can we talk about this because this is a very, very angry 259 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:51.720 Bob Holmes. 260 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:53.940 It's a great story. 261 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:58.799 And it's part of a big tradition, which I think does start with 262 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:04.860 say, the savages or the macraterra, the happiness patrol, gridlock 263 00:11:04.860 --> 00:11:09.480 where the doctor overthrows like a tyrannous regime in one day. 264 00:11:09.539 --> 00:11:14.700 He arrives and tears down a an evil political system. 265 00:11:14.820 --> 00:11:18.480 And all of these stories are really allegorical. 266 00:11:18.539 --> 00:11:22.200 All of these stories have just wafer thin premises. 267 00:11:22.259 --> 00:11:23.159 Do you know what I mean? 268 00:11:23.220 --> 00:11:26.940 Like, if you were, if you were sort of a crazy obsessive Doctor 269 00:11:26.940 --> 00:11:31.500 Who fan, Richard, would you be able to fit this into the sort of 270 00:11:31.500 --> 00:11:33.419 continuity of Earth's Empire? 271 00:11:33.480 --> 00:11:36.299 You know, at some point we all go to Pluto and then we all come 272 00:11:36.299 --> 00:11:36.480 back. 273 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:37.799 You know we don't care. 274 00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:38.820 The premise. 275 00:11:38.879 --> 00:11:39.360 So far. 276 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:41.460 Well, the point is, yeah, it's so far in the future, they don't 277 00:11:41.460 --> 00:11:43.200 even acknowledge an earth all that. 278 00:11:43.259 --> 00:11:45.659 Well, they do mention it and talk about going back to it, I think 279 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:47.879 as if it's a lost icon. 280 00:11:47.940 --> 00:11:49.559 But I like where you're going. 281 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:53.519 And so what we have here, and the story goes that Holmes got a big 282 00:11:53.519 --> 00:11:55.919 tax bill, and he was really irritated. 283 00:11:55.980 --> 00:12:00.480 He's, you know, kind of politically conservative homes and we've 284 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:02.940 been crossed in for various things in the past. 285 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.840 But this doesn't read as a satire of the tax system. 286 00:12:06.899 --> 00:12:10.139 This reads as an attack on capitalism. 287 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:15.059 And the doctor overthrows a vicious capitalist regime just in one 288 00:12:15.059 --> 00:12:15.299 day. 289 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.879 So the company gets spoken of. 290 00:12:17.940 --> 00:12:21.240 It's not the government, it's the company, the collector talks 291 00:12:21.240 --> 00:12:27.179 sort of presciently like a, like an 80s Gordon gecko, an ongoing 292 00:12:27.179 --> 00:12:30.840 insurrectionary situation wouldn't be, you know, good for, you 293 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.659 know, seen as positive for the company and stuff. 294 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:36.720 He talks like a corporate drone. 295 00:12:36.779 --> 00:12:40.679 All of that sort of stuff, makes it read as an attack on 296 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:41.159 capitalism. 297 00:12:41.279 --> 00:12:44.220 And it's really funny. 298 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:45.720 It is just terrifically funny. 299 00:12:45.779 --> 00:12:48.179 It's packed full of hilarious lines. 300 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:49.919 It gives Leila something to do. 301 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:52.559 The reason Louise likes it is those scenes at the beginning of 302 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.559 episode two, where she's trying to encourage people to go and 303 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:58.860 rescue the doctor, and, you know, everyone's a coward and stuff 304 00:12:58.860 --> 00:13:01.679 and she's speaking in thundering, Shakespearean, iambic 305 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:02.700 pentameters. 306 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:03.659 Go on, Brendan, chime in. 307 00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:04.679 Revolution. 308 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:05.580 Revolution. 309 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:07.080 Yeah, hooray for Vicky. 310 00:13:07.139 --> 00:13:09.299 But no, I do I do love that scene as well. 311 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:12.659 And I especially love it for when Cordo volunteers and she says 312 00:13:12.659 --> 00:13:13.799 you're the bravest person here. 313 00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:15.419 Yeah, no, there's some beautiful lines. 314 00:13:15.480 --> 00:13:16.019 I love Cordo. 315 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.659 The reason this is such a great script, and as you say, it's 316 00:13:18.659 --> 00:13:19.860 interesting to talk about presidents. 317 00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:22.740 But the reason this story works, and the other ones you've talked 318 00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:23.580 about working as well. 319 00:13:23.879 --> 00:13:26.519 It's always been a terrific story. 320 00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:30.659 It was a terrific story 25 years before when it was written. by 321 00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:34.679 Frederick Paul and Cyril Kornbluth in 1953. 322 00:13:34.860 --> 00:13:37.919 I had this, as I read a lot of SF as a teenager locked in my 323 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:38.100 room. 324 00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.080 It was called the Space Merchants. 325 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:42.240 And it was, it's a really stand up book. 326 00:13:42.299 --> 00:13:45.840 You can still get it in print, and you can certainly download it 327 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:47.460 on whatever device you care to use. 328 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:52.379 The reason it's so well known is that Kingsley Amos, the father of 329 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:57.179 Martin Amos, the great literary critic and poet, and huge James 330 00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:00.779 Bond fan, we may well have mentioned him on Bondfinger, and I will 331 00:14:00.779 --> 00:14:01.440 so again. 332 00:14:01.500 --> 00:14:06.539 He called this book, The Space Merchants, the greatest SF novel in 333 00:14:06.539 --> 00:14:09.659 English, when it came out, and everybody else agreed, the Prime 334 00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:10.259 Minister agreed. 335 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:11.759 It's about the basis of this. 336 00:14:11.820 --> 00:14:15.299 If you hadn't read it, is the advertisers running the world, and 337 00:14:15.299 --> 00:14:19.620 the consees, or conscious people, who are the consumables, the 338 00:14:19.620 --> 00:14:21.360 consumers, I should say, underneath. 339 00:14:21.419 --> 00:14:24.600 And it's almost plot line for, it is this story. 340 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.440 And it's well recognised that it's, you know, by the folk at the 341 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.379 BBC, and they thought, Oh, how witty of you to rewrite this. 342 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.659 And, of course, this whole period in Doctor Who was about 343 00:14:33.659 --> 00:14:34.620 rebooting. 344 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:36.480 It's also the 1st revolution. 345 00:14:36.539 --> 00:14:37.259 I'll come back to it. 346 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.200 It's the 1st revolution I think we've had since Reign of Terror of 347 00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:41.039 the Tellurians. 348 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:42.539 I think the savages. 349 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.360 It reminds me of the savages, where they smashed the system in 350 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:46.200 episode four. 351 00:14:46.259 --> 00:14:46.980 That's true. 352 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:50.460 And kind of the crotons, but I get the gons aren't human. 353 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:53.340 And really, the gods wouldn't have done it themselves. 354 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:55.559 It is like the Croton, though, isn't it? 355 00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:57.659 Because it is, it is mixing up. 356 00:14:57.779 --> 00:14:58.440 Homes is supposed to think. 357 00:14:58.500 --> 00:14:59.340 Yeah, exactly. 358 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:00.240 Let's make us. 359 00:15:00.299 --> 00:15:02.039 Holmes has always been for an ex-cop. 360 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:06.899 He's always been surprisingly really red flag. socialist. 361 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:09.840 I think like Gene Roddenbury in a way, because Gene Roddenbury 362 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:11.940 creator of Star Trek, was an ex-police officer as well. 363 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.340 No, there's something about having been on the street, isn't 364 00:15:14.340 --> 00:15:14.460 there? 365 00:15:14.519 --> 00:15:19.320 I think that's where that cynicism comes from that Holmes writes 366 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:19.679 with. 367 00:15:19.740 --> 00:15:24.299 But he's taking it somewhere positive, like he does actually have 368 00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:25.500 a sort of proper message. 369 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:28.500 And then next year he'll do an anti-colonialism thing. 370 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:31.440 Like, we do think of him as a conservative, but these are 371 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:33.659 surprisingly progressive stories for him. 372 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.679 Yeah, I think he's perhaps a conservative in the way that some 373 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.860 people now are trying to distance, some conservatives now, I 374 00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:42.659 should say, are trying to distance themselves from the very right 375 00:15:42.659 --> 00:15:46.980 wing conservatism we see, where they say, I'm a conservative in 376 00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:48.899 the sense that I want people to have a family. 377 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.080 I don't care the makeup of that family, but I want people to have 378 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.539 a family and people who love and support them, and I want people 379 00:15:54.539 --> 00:15:56.340 to be able to succeed on their own success. 380 00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.419 We've got Whigs and Tories again, as Thatcher wanted 19th century 381 00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:00.960 politics. 382 00:16:01.019 --> 00:16:01.440 Weve got it. 383 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:01.740 Yeah. 384 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:05.700 Something I want to say to illustrate Todd's question of who is 385 00:16:05.700 --> 00:16:06.539 the audience for this. 386 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.039 It's a... 387 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:11.159 The novelisation of this story was, of course, written by Terrence 388 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:11.700 Dix. 389 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.539 And it's kind of blow by blow what happens in the script, but 390 00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:18.659 there is a bit that Terence Sticks ads, which is towards the end 391 00:16:18.659 --> 00:16:23.460 when the work units, sorry, people, Cordo, throw the gatherer off 392 00:16:23.460 --> 00:16:23.879 the roof. 393 00:16:23.940 --> 00:16:25.379 I really like that. 394 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.460 Because... 395 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:28.980 It is pretty astounding to see as a child, yeah. 396 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.179 In the TV version, it ends with V saying, and we'll do the same to 397 00:16:33.179 --> 00:16:34.799 the collector when we see him. 398 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:36.779 You know, gets a little bit Oliver. 399 00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:39.059 And his little dog. 400 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:42.840 But in the novel, after they throw him off, they kind of laugh. 401 00:16:42.899 --> 00:16:45.059 And when they finish laughing, everyone kind of looks at each 402 00:16:45.059 --> 00:16:48.960 other, with the sense that this has perhaps gone a little bit far 403 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.720 but a 1000 metres is a long way down. 404 00:16:51.779 --> 00:16:55.139 Oh, but that's just Terry being a bit conservative as well. 405 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.399 Let's see. 406 00:16:56.460 --> 00:16:59.100 I like how we enjoy the revolution, in fact, in the story. 407 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.759 I really like his sentiment and trying to teach morality to 408 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.000 children, but I honestly think there'd been so much adrenaline 409 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:07.259 they would have found, what can we chuck next? 410 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.160 Yeah, it's also, it, Cordo was going to throw himself off the roof 411 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:14.880 in episode one and they throw gatherer made off the roof. 412 00:17:15.000 --> 00:17:16.140 And that's the right thing to do. 413 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:17.640 Oh, but this is my point. 414 00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:21.720 We can look at that as adults and understand the allegory and we 415 00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:23.160 can understand the link between those. 416 00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:29.460 But at this point, the show is still ostensibly being made for, as 417 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:31.259 Tom Baker puts it, several levels. 418 00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:33.779 You know, you've got the six year old child who's scared of the 419 00:17:33.779 --> 00:17:34.200 monsters. 420 00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:36.539 You got the 10 year old child who's being brave because the 60 421 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:37.980 year old child is scared of the monsters. 422 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:39.960 You've got the 15 year old laughing at them and you've got the 423 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:41.039 parents saying, isn't that enjoyable? 424 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:45.240 Really, I would say this story would more appeal just to the 15 425 00:17:45.240 --> 00:17:46.440 year old and the adults. 426 00:17:46.500 --> 00:17:47.579 There's no monsters. 427 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:52.200 God, now I'm Nathan. homes very frequently, doesn't do monsters. 428 00:17:52.259 --> 00:17:55.500 Yeah, we will talk about, we've talked about that before, but, you 429 00:17:55.500 --> 00:17:58.019 know, his 2 stories next year feature one monster. 430 00:17:58.079 --> 00:17:58.920 Yeah, yeah. 431 00:17:58.920 --> 00:18:00.480 You know, there's the magma creature. 432 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.759 But that's the thing. 433 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:05.819 I think design wise, this story is very much for children. 434 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:07.319 People are in colourful outfits. 435 00:18:07.380 --> 00:18:10.380 Well, they're dressed as Lego mini figures presaging before 436 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:11.279 they're ever invented. 437 00:18:11.339 --> 00:18:12.779 And it's canines first. 438 00:18:12.839 --> 00:18:15.000 Canine's actually... 439 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:15.900 We should talk about canine. 440 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:17.460 Canine's actually pretty enjoyable in this. 441 00:18:17.579 --> 00:18:18.779 I really like this. 442 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:21.000 I really like his cynicism and his pithiness. 443 00:18:21.059 --> 00:18:22.440 We discover he runs on batteries. 444 00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:23.700 I didn't actually know that before. 445 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.940 I love the tail wagging and the tail drooping thing. 446 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.839 I think it's so cute and then Leila goes completely out of 447 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:33.960 character and says, you know, canine announces that he's done 448 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:34.200 something. 449 00:18:34.259 --> 00:18:35.519 What do you want, canine? 450 00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:36.240 A biscuit? 451 00:18:36.779 --> 00:18:39.720 But it's still it's still very, very witty. 452 00:18:39.839 --> 00:18:41.700 No, they you can see the actors. 453 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:44.220 This is an actor's piece and it really works for actors. 454 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:45.539 It's just such a sad thing. 455 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.259 It's honestly, it's a minor point, but it just shows us what the 456 00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:52.319 medium is of Doctor Who and that there are lines you can't cross. 457 00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:53.940 It's a perfect theatre piece. 458 00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:57.480 And with black drops and simple lighting. 459 00:18:57.539 --> 00:18:59.099 It would have worked really well on stage. 460 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:04.740 It requires an intimacy between the screen and the audience, and 461 00:19:04.740 --> 00:19:06.420 it doesn't achieve that. 462 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:09.299 It actually pulls us away from the drama. 463 00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:10.200 We care little. 464 00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:13.319 The only person we really care about is Leila. 465 00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:17.099 Cordo, again, not necessarily. 466 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:18.720 It's the way he's framed. 467 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:22.319 It's interesting that, and the reason I mention metropolis and 468 00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:24.180 German expressionism is actually a reason. 469 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:27.119 It's not called Megropolis for no other reason. 470 00:19:27.180 --> 00:19:28.680 There's lots of little motifs. 471 00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:32.640 The steam chamber that Leila is in is an exact copy of the 472 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:36.180 sarcophagus that Maria the robot is in in Metropolis. 473 00:19:36.240 --> 00:19:36.960 There are lots. 474 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:41.099 The way the controller, whoever it was, is holding the controls is 475 00:19:41.099 --> 00:19:45.539 exactly the same way that it's figured in Metropolis, if we look 476 00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:46.019 at that again. 477 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.140 He's holding these big controls and spinning the things around. 478 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:52.920 There's a way that lighting and direction can either stimulate 479 00:19:52.920 --> 00:19:56.220 intimacy or produce an intimacy, or it can actually pull you away 480 00:19:56.220 --> 00:19:58.140 and that's it. 481 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:01.200 It's only one thing about this story, but it's such a big thing 482 00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:03.119 that I have to agree with Todd on this. 483 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:04.680 I actually felt more of a separation. 484 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.380 And it annoys me, because it shouldn't. 485 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:11.279 And I remember, as a boy, thinking the novelisation, I like this 486 00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.119 story because of that. 487 00:20:12.180 --> 00:20:14.519 And latest performance is terrific. 488 00:20:14.579 --> 00:20:17.400 If Louise wasn't in this, I just don't know if it would go 489 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:17.700 anywhere. 490 00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:20.519 I just think the script. 491 00:20:20.579 --> 00:20:24.180 I think the script is so clever that it. 492 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:28.079 I mean, you know, this is Doctor Who, we used to ignoring kind of 493 00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:29.220 terrible sets and things. 494 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:31.140 They're not always a separation. 495 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.700 They're usually an integrative thing. 496 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:34.859 We were talking about this earlier, that, you know, you often feel 497 00:20:34.859 --> 00:20:37.799 as if you're dressing up with your mates, or you're planting with 498 00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:40.380 your mates when you're watching it, when things go slightly wrong 499 00:20:40.380 --> 00:20:44.279 it encourages a kind of sympathy for the, in the audience, for 500 00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:46.259 what's happening on screen, because we're laughing along with 501 00:20:46.259 --> 00:20:46.500 them. 502 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:49.019 But I don't think that achieves it in this case. 503 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:54.059 I mean, part of the Williams thing is that it is pitching itself 504 00:20:54.059 --> 00:20:59.579 older and it is, it doesn't have the budget and it doesn't really 505 00:20:59.579 --> 00:21:02.640 have the design ability and it's had a few spectacular fails 506 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:03.900 already this season. 507 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:05.220 Well, won. 508 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.039 And so far this season. 509 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:09.000 Yeah, so far this season. 510 00:21:09.059 --> 00:21:13.500 And it will sort of default to a mode that requires a little bit 511 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:17.880 of irony, uh, and, you know, like an audience that it is in some 512 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.880 way detach from it and aware of its tropes and all of that sort of 513 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:21.059 thing. 514 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:25.019 And so you're no longer really sympathising with the characters 515 00:21:25.019 --> 00:21:29.099 but you're enjoying, you know, the story and the kind of raised 516 00:21:29.099 --> 00:21:31.619 eyebrow and just generally the attitude. 517 00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:36.720 And so here, there's all kinds of really terrifically funny lines 518 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.319 but you're not in a world that you can really believe, you know 519 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:43.859 you don't have any characters and so on to engage with, but I 520 00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:44.519 think it still works. 521 00:21:44.579 --> 00:21:46.319 I think it's still funny and entertaining. 522 00:21:46.380 --> 00:21:48.599 I think you've just hit on 2 things there. 523 00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:51.900 We're very much of an era of the postmodern theatre or the 524 00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:54.839 postmodern doctrine of theatre, and that we're critiquing while 525 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:55.259 we're watching. 526 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.480 You've just mentioned 2 very interesting things. 527 00:21:57.539 --> 00:22:02.279 The supercilious, ironic view, viewing back into it. 528 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.319 I guess we're both actually saying the same thing. 529 00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:06.000 There's dissonance. 530 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:07.500 Sontag writes about this. 531 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.859 Susan Sontag, the SAist, in 70s in postmodern theatre. 532 00:22:10.920 --> 00:22:13.440 It came from the French and from other people. 533 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:17.519 Beckett, of course, as an English writer, is probably the best one 534 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:19.079 to raise Samuel Beckett. 535 00:22:19.140 --> 00:22:22.920 But there's a point of the distancing, or an awareness of the void 536 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.339 between the performance and the audience, which is meant to create 537 00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:31.079 drama and heightened level of tension in the audience member and 538 00:22:31.079 --> 00:22:31.859 discomfort. 539 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:33.779 That shouldn't happen in doctor. 540 00:22:33.839 --> 00:22:35.579 Well, I don't think that does happen. 541 00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:39.720 I think, look, it's exemplified by Mary Tam next year who just 542 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.420 sort of strolls through the thing raising her eyebrows and just 543 00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:44.039 enjoying... 544 00:22:44.099 --> 00:22:47.460 But we've very much part of Mary's view and we are, we're her 545 00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:49.319 silent, invisible companion next to her. 546 00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.960 I felt to presage what's going to be coming up with you and Todd 547 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:55.619 and Brendan next year is that I'm always right there with Mary Tam 548 00:22:55.619 --> 00:22:56.759 as Romana. 549 00:22:56.819 --> 00:23:00.599 I don't feel it all separated or distanced by her ironic glance. 550 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:05.519 I, I, I find it humourous and I'm encouraged to take that view 551 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:06.779 within the drama. 552 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:08.759 So because here there's no one quite like that. 553 00:23:08.819 --> 00:23:09.660 Is that the problem? 554 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:13.440 I just honestly think there's a lot of cerebral attention, but 555 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.140 there's not a lot of love if we can bring it back to what would 556 00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:16.799 Oprah do? 557 00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:21.839 There's not a lot of, There's love for the ideas and there's skill 558 00:23:21.839 --> 00:23:24.480 and there's wit, but I don't think there's a great deal of love 559 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:25.079 for the audience. 560 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:26.880 Everyone's realising how clever they all are. 561 00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:30.059 A sort of that old phrase of everyone's obviously having a good 562 00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:30.359 time. 563 00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:31.799 It'd be nice for us to have it too. 564 00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.059 That's how I felt, and I'd like to hear Todd's response, because I 565 00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:37.859 suspect that's how he was feeling, as well. 566 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.980 But his obelisk has disappeared. 567 00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:41.819 I can't get him back. 568 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:43.440 What did you think, Brendan? 569 00:23:43.500 --> 00:23:46.680 Well, the funny thing, I see exactly all of what you're talking 570 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:53.039 about, but like Nathan, for me, the script still brings it 571 00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:53.220 through. 572 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.720 Is it enough to hold you? 573 00:23:54.779 --> 00:23:56.640 It's so funny. 574 00:23:56.700 --> 00:23:57.779 Yeah, I think you know what? 575 00:23:57.900 --> 00:23:58.319 think it is. 576 00:23:58.380 --> 00:24:02.039 But I will also admit, those scenes in the long white featureless 577 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.099 corridors, it's only the close-ups that really hold my attention 578 00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:05.700 at the moment. 579 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:07.980 It's like, great, Zoanna, and I said forward. 580 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.940 Which you know were all dumb in rehearsals. 581 00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:13.019 Yeah, yeah. 582 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:16.019 If you, obviously, if you watch this and go and make scones in the 583 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:17.940 kitchen or something, just have this on in the other room, it's a 584 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:18.359 great story. 585 00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:20.160 Yeah, you know what? 586 00:24:20.220 --> 00:24:22.799 It's never gonna be on my top 10 list, but it's a great... 587 00:24:22.920 --> 00:24:23.400 It should be, though. 588 00:24:23.460 --> 00:24:25.920 I'm not disagreeing with an athenist. 589 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:28.740 This is a very interesting triumvirate today, isn't it? 590 00:24:28.799 --> 00:24:31.619 We're all sort of both disagree. all disagreeing and agreeing. 591 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:33.240 I'd like to know what the listener thinks. 592 00:24:33.299 --> 00:24:35.220 What does our friend Greg Miller think about this? 593 00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:36.420 I'm sure you're writing. 594 00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:40.079 An old family friend of mine, who's sadly no longer with us 595 00:24:40.079 --> 00:24:43.380 introduced me to a great term. when I was staying at her house one 596 00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:43.980 school holidays. 597 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:48.420 She described Star Trek 4, The Voyage Home, as her ironing movie. 598 00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:53.099 You know, she'd put it on and she'd do the iron. 599 00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.380 And I think this is one of those Doctor Who stories as well. 600 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.539 You can make the scones where you're doing, or you can do the 601 00:24:57.539 --> 00:24:58.019 ironing. 602 00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.019 And the thing is, every time you do sort of tune into it, You're 603 00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:02.160 going to get a witty line anyway. 604 00:25:02.460 --> 00:25:04.319 That is a great... 605 00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:06.119 I've got an ironing era. 606 00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:07.019 Oh, yes? 607 00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:08.400 It's the pertwee era. 608 00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:12.720 You've actually mentioned that before too, and I think I remember 609 00:25:12.720 --> 00:25:13.920 going, hmm, yeah. 610 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:16.559 Because the outfits are so gorgeous. 611 00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.059 There's all that money and attention. 612 00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.359 I just, on Pertley's part, is being spent on his costumes, and we 613 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:23.819 know that his last season, he's just worried about his outfits. 614 00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:24.960 Yes, yes. 615 00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:28.440 The nice thing here is that, look, Louise is fabulous in this. 616 00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:29.819 I really like the supporting cast. 617 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:35.339 It's actually up there amongst my top 25 Doctor Who stories of all 618 00:25:35.339 --> 00:25:35.640 time. 619 00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:39.000 Let's go through that and give the listener great fun being able 620 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:39.960 to read that on our book. 621 00:25:40.019 --> 00:25:42.299 We'll do that for Christmas. in reverse alphabetical order. 622 00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:43.380 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 623 00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:45.359 Because it is there, we all do that individually. 624 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:46.680 It's a home story. 625 00:25:46.740 --> 00:25:48.839 So it can never be it can never really be wrong. 626 00:25:48.900 --> 00:25:52.920 But there's also that fine line of when he takes the piss and he 627 00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:56.039 does out of everyone and everything, including his performers. 628 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:57.539 There's a little bit of distance. 629 00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:59.880 And at this point, for me, it's just grown that much too far. 630 00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:03.119 I would like to add, though, that I'm really surprised at the 631 00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:05.460 amount of compassion we're getting from homes, because we don't 632 00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:06.000 always get that. 633 00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:08.460 I don't think we're ever going to get it again in the future from 634 00:26:08.460 --> 00:26:08.700 him. 635 00:26:08.819 --> 00:26:10.319 But the 2 points. 636 00:26:10.380 --> 00:26:12.960 The one that you say that he was the one that was dead against, or 637 00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:15.720 was it Williams, the one that was dead against writing off Louise 638 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:16.859 in this story. 639 00:26:17.700 --> 00:26:20.039 It's just a complete vault face. 640 00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:22.140 I'm really surprised to hear Holmes. 641 00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.200 Maybe he's learnt from the recent very recent lessons that you 642 00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.299 just don't do that to an audience of children. 643 00:26:27.359 --> 00:26:29.819 You can do it with Matthew Waterhouse. 644 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:31.440 I'm really looking forward to seeing how we review that one 645 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:32.220 because I know. 646 00:26:32.339 --> 00:26:33.059 Because he doesn't matter. 647 00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:35.700 Well, I don't think anyone can. 648 00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:37.200 Well, and also he's one of us. 649 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:38.640 He was a 15 year old boy. 650 00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:40.619 And even teenagers don't like other teenagers. 651 00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:41.640 It's funny. 652 00:26:41.700 --> 00:26:43.380 It's funny you're saying that no one cares because when we get 653 00:26:43.380 --> 00:26:46.140 there, I have 2 stories about that of 2 people who cared a great 654 00:26:46.140 --> 00:26:48.240 deal about the... 655 00:26:48.299 --> 00:26:50.160 One of the one of whom is Matthew Waterhouse. 656 00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:51.900 Well, 3 then in that case. 657 00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.319 Okay, but back to this one. 658 00:26:55.380 --> 00:26:58.559 You know, I mean, we talked about this being a revolutionary thing 659 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:01.740 but the Usurians who obviously get their name. 660 00:27:03.240 --> 00:27:05.519 Yeah, yeah, from the practice of charging interest. 661 00:27:05.579 --> 00:27:09.240 When the collector looks the doctor up in his database. 662 00:27:09.299 --> 00:27:12.180 He learns that the doctor has a long history of violence and 663 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:13.079 economic subversion. 664 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:16.559 And that the time lords are not bankable to deal with. 665 00:27:16.619 --> 00:27:19.200 What the hell were they ever considering dealing with the time 666 00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:19.799 laws? 667 00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:20.880 And how do they know this information? 668 00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:24.299 Did the time laws actually have some kind of congress with these 669 00:27:24.299 --> 00:27:25.980 seaweed? 670 00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:27.839 Because they're actually a fungus, aren't they? 671 00:27:27.900 --> 00:27:30.119 They're a fungus with eyeballs. very Kenny Everett. 672 00:27:30.180 --> 00:27:33.599 Well, yeah, no, I think I think it's just homes being rude about 673 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:38.400 the time once again. and smashed them up in the deadly assassin 674 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.460 he's just going to be brutal about how ineffectual they are. 675 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.779 And of course, it does spoiler alert and kind of prefigure what we 676 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:46.859 get at the end of the season. 677 00:27:46.920 --> 00:27:48.119 It does. 678 00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:50.819 And I'd actually like to go backwards as well. 679 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.539 Have you realised that it's the only other race that uses the term 680 00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:58.200 Tulurians, other Lermans and Carnival of Monsters? 681 00:27:58.259 --> 00:27:58.980 Yeah. 682 00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:02.220 So I would really like to think that the Urians and the Lermans 683 00:28:02.220 --> 00:28:06.299 are somehow related, and that, you know, free collective 684 00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:08.160 bargaining is the greatest sin in the galaxy. 685 00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:12.720 The TGP, the transgalactic pact. 686 00:28:13.859 --> 00:28:16.019 Sure, we know more of that. 687 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:17.460 Well, we never heard anything about it. 688 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:18.180 It's a secret. 689 00:28:18.180 --> 00:28:22.079 Something I love about the end of this story, of course, is that 690 00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.160 you know, you've had the science fiction trope in Doctor Who 691 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:29.160 before, of Doctor Talks a computer to death. 692 00:28:29.220 --> 00:28:31.440 So, you know, we had that in the green death. 693 00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.180 Yeah, I blame Zoe for that. 694 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:35.220 She started it, didn't she? 695 00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:39.420 We kind of had that in the face of evil, although he also zapped 696 00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:40.619 it to death with some buttons. 697 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.720 Here, the doctor doesn't talk the computer to death. 698 00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:44.640 The computer talks, the villain to death. 699 00:28:45.180 --> 00:28:47.039 Yeah, what does he do? 700 00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:51.960 He feeds a small, you know, negative growth rate into or 701 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.440 something. 702 00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:52.799 Yeah, yeah. 703 00:28:52.859 --> 00:28:55.920 He makes him buy a house in Sydney and then undercharge for the 704 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:56.160 rent. 705 00:28:56.220 --> 00:29:00.779 It is, it's that crazy thing making fun of economics and it is 706 00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:03.180 something that will become standard in the 1980s. 707 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:04.380 It's a bit early for it here. 708 00:29:04.440 --> 00:29:07.440 But, you know, there's too many economists in the government. 709 00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:11.279 You know, my dear, what you need is a wily accountant. 710 00:29:11.700 --> 00:29:15.900 All of that sort of terribly funny stuff about economics which 711 00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:17.400 Doctor Who has never gone to before. 712 00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:20.579 And here it is just a few years too early. 713 00:29:21.000 --> 00:29:23.400 That point you raised about sympathy. 714 00:29:23.460 --> 00:29:26.279 You feel sympathy for every character, except the collector. 715 00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:27.720 You even feel sympathy for the gatherer. 716 00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:29.160 And how good is Henry Wolf? 717 00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:30.299 We've really got to throw in. 718 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:32.400 It is that thing, you know, we've had this thing. 719 00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:36.359 It's going to come up because it's a Williams era theme where 720 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.420 they'll write a funny script and then the actors will come in and 721 00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:42.240 mug and do big voices and be terribly silly. 722 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:44.519 But here it really works. 723 00:29:44.579 --> 00:29:48.960 Like both gather a hate and the collector are huge comedy 724 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.420 performances, but they work. 725 00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:56.279 And I think it works so well because Marn is played so straight. 726 00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.700 And she's just got all those reactions in the background of... 727 00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:01.019 Oh God, are you really doing? 728 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:01.259 Okay. 729 00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:05.640 And she's perfect Hitchcock's sitcom society blonde. 730 00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:09.720 She's the budget Grace Kelly in this. her role is to be impassive 731 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:10.200 and lovely. 732 00:30:10.259 --> 00:30:14.400 It's almost Felicity Kendall, Penelope Keith era, sitcom stuff 733 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:14.759 isn't it? 734 00:30:14.880 --> 00:30:17.640 Henry Wolfe, who's the collector, you know? 735 00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:21.720 I mean, he's just terrific in all of those sort of huge, pompous 736 00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.960 homes-y and things that gather, hey, does like calling him your 737 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.259 enormity and your corpulence and stuff like that. 738 00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:32.099 It's just terrific, just terribly funny, and it doesn't undermine 739 00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:32.759 the satire. 740 00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:35.279 He's still with us, you know, Henry Wolf. 741 00:30:35.339 --> 00:30:37.079 What about who's Gatherer Hay? 742 00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:40.380 No, Gatherer Hade, Richard Beach has passed on, sadly. 743 00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:44.160 But no, Henry Wolf is still with us. and still acting. 744 00:30:44.279 --> 00:30:47.940 Yeah, Henry Wolf was appearing in a show called Words and Pictures 745 00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:51.960 as the librarian helping children to read, and in Rutland weekend 746 00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:55.680 television, which was kind of like an early version of the far 747 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:59.400 show or something, a faux review show, as various con men and 748 00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:01.799 transvestite continuity announcers. 749 00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:04.500 Right while this was all. 750 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:07.200 It was like frocking up as Joyce Grenfell or something. 751 00:31:07.259 --> 00:31:08.700 I can only wish. 752 00:31:08.940 --> 00:31:10.259 It's been a while. 753 00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.099 Well, we're taking off from Pluto now. 754 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.559 That's all the time we have for the Sunmakers. 755 00:31:28.619 --> 00:31:31.619 We will be back next week to take on Doctor Who's biggest 756 00:31:31.619 --> 00:31:34.559 adventure in CSO ever, underworld. 757 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:35.759 I'm very excited. 758 00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.940 Yeah, I can feel the excitement from here. 759 00:31:39.000 --> 00:31:42.539 Please do check us out at flightthroughentirety.com, flight 760 00:31:42.539 --> 00:31:46.619 through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on 761 00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:47.160 Twitter. 762 00:31:47.220 --> 00:31:49.920 You can also check us out on Bondfinger, where we have a variety 763 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:51.779 of comedy and drunkenness. 764 00:31:51.839 --> 00:31:56.220 About the 1st few Sean Connery James Bond films, you can find that 765 00:31:56.220 --> 00:31:59.039 at bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and 766 00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:00.539 bondfinger cast on Twitter. 767 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:02.519 We were never as drunk as Connery was. 768 00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:06.839 I think between us though, we've got enough hair. 769 00:32:06.900 --> 00:32:08.460 Just. 770 00:32:08.579 --> 00:32:11.220 Don't leave it in too long ago, frizzy. 771 00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:15.660 Until next week, may none of your steam balds be controlled by a 772 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:16.859 bunch of CK with eyes. 773 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.940 Thank you very much and good night. 774 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:18.599 Good night. 775 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:19.680 Good, everyone. 776 00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:25.500 That was Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Buttonley, Brendan Jones 777 00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:26.940 and Richard Stone. 778 00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.779 This episode, Don't You Feel Every single centimetre was recorded 779 00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:32.579 on the 11th of October, 2015. 780 00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:35.819 The next episode will be released on November 22nd. 781 00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.160 I can sympathise with the collector. 782 00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:41.579 I get a real feeling of job satisfaction when my broccoli is 783 00:32:41.579 --> 00:32:42.480 perfectly steamed. 784 00:32:45.539 --> 00:32:48.599 I think it's the phones interfering with... 785 00:32:48.660 --> 00:32:49.259 It could be, yeah. 786 00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:50.819 Okay, it seems to be all right. 787 00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:55.079 I won't be able to teleport up in an emergency if my Apple Watch 788 00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:56.880 is on airplane mode. 789 00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:01.200 County, counterport. 790 00:33:05.099 --> 00:33:09.299 I love how when Backfinish started doing Liberated Chronicles 791 00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.240 everyone complained, you've recreated the teleport sound, and they 792 00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:15.599 had to be very diplomatic and say, that's because it comes under 793 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:17.160 the auspices of a piece of music. 794 00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:21.660 It doesn't exist as a clean recording, and we would have to pay 795 00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:25.079 the original composer for its use, and that's all sorts of legal 796 00:33:25.079 --> 00:33:26.220 trouble where we could. 797 00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:26.880 So do they... 798 00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:28.440 They remade the sound of it. 799 00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:29.819 They remade the sound and sound different. 800 00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:31.440 Very slightly. 801 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.680 You know, it sounds like a really clean version of the recording. 802 00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:36.779 I don't remember it sounding that different. 803 00:33:36.900 --> 00:33:38.400 I've heard the whole 1st season. 804 00:33:38.460 --> 00:33:41.640 It's a bit like their... love them. 805 00:33:41.700 --> 00:33:43.259 Yeah, they're better. 806 00:33:43.319 --> 00:33:45.000 But look at what you're comparing to. 807 00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:46.920 They give everyone better work. 808 00:33:46.980 --> 00:33:49.680 Cali is a much more interestingly written character. 809 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:51.119 Yeah, so they got Jan Chappell. 810 00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:51.720 It's everybody. 811 00:33:51.779 --> 00:33:55.019 Yeah, that everyone who's alive, except... 812 00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:56.099 Is that Simon? 813 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:58.380 Because she's not in that season. 814 00:33:58.440 --> 00:33:59.759 She is coming up though. 815 00:33:59.819 --> 00:34:01.140 Yeah, well, season two. 816 00:34:01.619 --> 00:34:04.920 They've done a season 3 set as well. 817 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:07.500 Forget Angela Bruce back again. 818 00:34:07.559 --> 00:34:10.800 Well, no, the whole thing is Dana has taken an escateboard and no 819 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:11.460 one knows where she's gone. 820 00:34:11.519 --> 00:34:16.500 So it's the search for Dana and she's replaced by Tom Shadbon as 821 00:34:16.500 --> 00:34:17.099 Dell Grant. 822 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.420 Really? 823 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:18.780 Wow. 824 00:34:18.840 --> 00:34:20.699 That's so crap. 825 00:34:20.940 --> 00:34:26.280 I'm actually really positive about everything. leave it in.