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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:21:55

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast which has made in Minot stamped on its bottom.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan I'm a lovely golden sheepskin somewhere.

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Let's hope you find me.

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And we're getting a bit allegorical as we dive into Doctor Who's greatest CSO adventure ever, underworld.

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Well, this is my story, and it's just absolute...

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Really, really, truly terrible.

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Oh, I don't know. actually kind of like this.

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I like this a lot more than the last one.

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That's extraordinary.

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I like the 1st episode more.

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Yeah, can we start at the beginning?

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The 1st episode has amazing model work.

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Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.

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It does have really good model work, and in fact, the model work this season's good.

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The invasion of time will have quite good.

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Yeah, yeah, too.

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They've set the benchmark, believe it or not, with Invisible Enemy.

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And this story, again, to get a whole day of model shooting and up to the level of, we keep talking about Star Wars, but it is actually going back to the Andersons.

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It's Space 1979 and they're trying to compete with ITV for that or ITC, I should say for that one.

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And I think they do it really well in this.

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And I think the high concept kind of idea that we're on the edge of the universe and planets and star systems and things are being created.

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I think all of that stuff's really great.

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And I think it's quite memorable.

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I think the set for the R1C.

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The R1C?

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The set is really good and it's. a tax form, isn't it, really?

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It'll be, it'll be.

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Set is gorgeous as we discover it chewed up most of the budget. they did reuse it later on, as they said, a P78.

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And they, it is in itself a reuse of the Titan shuttle bridge.

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Oh, it is too.

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Yes. and that was deliberately planned. because Graham Williams was aware, 1st of all, that his budget was going to be slashed.

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Thank you, Philip, Epicanthic folds, Hinchcliffe.

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And secondly, that he had 2 spaceships in 2 stories, well, let's try and use that a bit more.

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From a season progression point of view.

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We started out on Earth.

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Then we went to the asteroid belt.

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Back to Earth again, and out to the asteroid belt again in image of Vendal.

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Then we went out to Pluto, and now we're on the very edge of the universe.

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So the idea of the doctor teaching Leela.

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Although it seems to have been lost this season.

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He is taking her to places, sort of, to do with the exploration of humanity.

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Now, we don't have humans in this.

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We have minions.

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Not little yellow people with single eyes and overalls.

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Although, once you get the helmets off, not far off.

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Oh, my God.

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God, they're minions.

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They're minions.

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What the hell are they, by the way?

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They say they've evolved if they evolved from minions and now they've got metal cylindrical hands?

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I mean, what the hell are they?

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Cylindrical heads with a bit of a seam around the top, shall we?

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ridiculous.

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Angry red eyes.

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Angry red stop lights, yeah.

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Stop the script.

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It's really.

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I mean, it's really, truly awful.

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And I think the really telling point is that one of the main characters tries to kill herself out of sheer boredom in episode one.

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So she's she's on a set that seems to be as large as anything we've ever seen and Doctor Who.

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It looks gorgeous.

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That regeneration chamber is one of Rod's paintings, the one just...

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I mean, so they regenerate because, you know, they're known to the time or they've been on this quest for 100,000 years.

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But Tala doesn't, she's like in old lady makeup and sort of 20s wig, you know, 20s slap of wig and then she's going to die and she tries not to regenerate because she just wants to kill her.

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She wants Maggie Smith's career, so she's looking so much like her right now.

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Yeah.

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No, I just want, look, and Jackson, the character, Jason Jackson, in this one, kind of sums it up as well.

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You know what?

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I think it actually comes down to performances.

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We've got some really good actors in this.

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I'd like to signpost Alan Lake and get to him later on as Herrick.

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He's extraordinary.

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It's scary in a Blake 7 episode when he kills Mike Yates, doesn't he?

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a seriously good actor and a serious monster, which is why you don't see him in more things.

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He's kind of the Peter Finch, Oliver Reed, of TV, of 70s TV.

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We'll get to him later, but, you know, James Maxwell, who's playing Jackson, the captain.

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It should be there should be some impetus from him, but when he says it's been 100,000 years going on and on and on.

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All you get is the sense of utter fatigue and ennui.

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And we've taken back to Hebrews 138, aren't we?

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As you would know.

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Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, forever.

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They're born.

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I mean, they're bored.

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We land on a spaceship where everyone is utterly bored and no one is...

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No one is interesting.

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Do you know what I mean?

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everyone is just sort of terrifically dull.

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I have to agree.

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Look, aside from Alan Lake, I don't think there's a decent guest performance in this.

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Oh, the extras, though, are the best worst extras.

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Mercy for my dead baby.

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Jenny is like the Jenny led company true. pilings and they're all superb.

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Oh, but, you know, Imogen Bickford Smith.

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That's Tala.

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Her agent was billing her as, oh, she's going to replace Leila and Graham Williams apparently said, who told you this?

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Oh, my agent thought it would look very good.

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You're not even very good, dad.

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Oh, yeah.

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She was a bit posh and a new Princess Diana.

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I mean, you say Jackson's sort of delivery about, it's been 100,000 years presents ennui.

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I think he's acting like, have I left the iron on?

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I've been out for 3 hours.

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Is that enough time to burn down the house or just the carpet?

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You know, he looks like he's doing some very complex mathematics.

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I don't get any sense that he's been on this long journey.

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It's relying far too heavily on our snow, which we probably did.

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School kids and certainly you, Nathan, would have known, the Homer.

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So.

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No, it's not Homer so much.

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I mean, there's sort of references to the Argo and things all throughout Greek and Latin literature, but the big sources, the Argonautica buy Apollonius of Rhodes.

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And I have to say I haven't read it, but it's a Hellenistic epic and what it's really famous for.

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So Jason is sent by Hera, possibly, by Athena.

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Some bint in a toga, yeah.

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Yeah, it's a horrible, self-centred goddess, and sent off to get the Golden Fleece, but it's really to get Madea, whom he'll fall into.

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Diana Rigg, who will, yes, obviously played by Diana Rigg, who he'll fall in love with, and then he brings her back, and then he will trick the daughters of King Pelias into boiling him alive, because he's a terrible tyrant, sort of thing.

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But the, like, Apollonius version is famous for kind of what people now are gone as a sort of sophisticated psychological realism in the way that the characters of Jason and Medea are treated.

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Well we certainly get that in this show.

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Well, Medea's not even in it, unless it's, it's a normal Tipton's character, perhaps.

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No, all of the characters that we meet in episode one have analogues in crew members of the Argo.

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And there's different lists of crew members of the Argo. and the Argonauts are a sort of Avengers assemble things, you know, where a lot of heroes from other stories all come together.

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So you've got Jason, is Jackson, Herrick, Herrick, Herrick.

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Tala is Atalanta.

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She doesn't travel on board the Argo in Apollonius because Jason won't let there be a woman on board, but she's in it in some ways.

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They only sprain their ankles.

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Orphus Orpheus?

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Could that be a metaphor for Williams taking over from Philip Hinchcliffe, because Williams will let there be a woman on board.

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Yes, for change.

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So, and okay, so it's terrible, but, you know.

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Sorry, Authors Orpheus, which is why he has a ray which placidizes people.

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Exactly. that's right He famously calms warlike people like Leila.

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That is a lovely, lovely scene at the beginning with...

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His name is Or, and the doctor snaps Leila out of it by telling her what a horrible person she is.

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I hate that scene and then she turns into a petulant child who's sulking and wants to attack someone because like her dignity's been taken away or something.

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It goes absolutely nowhere.

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We don't see that.

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It's more Baker and Martin stuff.

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And we're talking Tom Baker.

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It's actually Tom is, you know, I used to said it the other week for someone who hasn't been in the show this long.

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He's really become a petulant oligarch, like so many of our Tory leaders on both sides of, you know, both Britain and Australia.

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He's really awful to his companion.

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And I really wish someone had had enough backbone to just pull him up and say, Tom, this is going to look terrible.

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Yeah, be nice.

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It doesn't work.

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See, I don't think he treats Lever too badly in this one.

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Because when he's giving her that speech or if, you know, you're grumpy in this and bad temper too.

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He's not doing it in a mean sort of way.

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He's actually doing it to counteract the effect someone else has had on it to change a personality.

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You know, he's saying, yes, you're grumpy and this and bad tempered too.

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I'm giving, you know, I'm giving that back to you because it's just been taken away.

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Yeah, he doesn't try and snap Herrick out of it.

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Who cares about Herrick?

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No, it's like, hold on, you've just done something to my friend.

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What's the point of that?

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Is it just a chew up running time?

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Oh, of course.

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It's a Bob Baker, Dave Marks.

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I think it's a joke about I'm glad you mentioned Herrick.

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I think it's a joke about Alan Lake.

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Alan Lake, as I've mentioned before, it wasn't getting work, even though he's considered such a brilliant actor.

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People thought he was great.

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Graham Williams has talked about him as being a brilliant.

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Tom loved him.

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They got on very well together, even.

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He fights with absolutely everyone on set.

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He was a terrible alcoholic.

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He was married to Diana Dawes.

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Still at this point.

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They called her the answer to Marilyn Monroe in Britain, but she was actually before Monroe.

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And nobody had asked the question.

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Yeah, and she and a really big star, probably Britain's biggest paid platinum blonde, certainly biggest paid star of the 50s and 60s.

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They were also notorious for their, I can't put it in any other wave except in the Greek orgies at home.

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Alan Lake would organise them.

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There was a room with huge circular bedroom they had with, this is all documented with a mirror ceiling that was a two-way mirror, and they'd all sit above, and Bob Monkhouse was a victim to this.

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A comedian.

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It's actually where they filmed that scene from Russia with love, with the camera behind it.

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That's exactly that.

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The camera behind the bed.

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That's right.

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If only they'd had the same cast.

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And it got to the point, though.

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She became a big woman and I love her for that as well.

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And she would just go around making scones for people while they'd be enjoying these orgies.

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So, son, Jason, um...

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Very Roman.

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The son Jason had a terrible time with alcohol and drug dependency.

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He's our age, and he's only really just come out of it in the last few years and written a book about growing up with these abominable parents, but he also said they're immensely talented and very clever, but they just had absolutely no link to other people.

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And I think now we're back to the script of underworld.

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Well...

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Funny you should say that because we have a circling obelisk above us.

191
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You've got to do something about the see-through finish on the underside of that thing.

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It's a two way mirror.

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All right, I came into disguise wanting to defend the script against the special effects.

194
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Or I wanted to defend the acting against the script against something.

195
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I don't know.

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But as this went on, I just got more and more despondent.

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I don't think there is a script there.

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I think the script is the last thing in the bottom cupboard that Robert Holmes left, and Anthony Reed has just got it and gone, We have to put something on.

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I just would rather watch Planet of the Daleks twice in a row, nonstop, than ever have to watch this again.

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I actually think this is one of the worst stories in the history of Doctor Who, and it's really galling that this story has the highest rated episode of the season.

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I mean, no wonder Doctor Who's had such a bad reputation in the late 1970s for crap special effects and performances.

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I've just been texted by my dear friend, Rodan.

203
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She's having a problem with her induction barriers.

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Oh, the poor woman.

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I will have to go and give her some help.

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Yeah, Todd's right.

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It's the usual bricolage effect of the Baker Martin thing.

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All these ideas.

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Let's throw every idea we can, and, oh, look how they've fallen out on the floor.

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It's like going through your Lego box and putting something new together.

211
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But it's also, you know, this thing where you do a sci fi take on a legend.

212
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And, you know, in a way...

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My concept legend.

214
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Star Wars does that as well.

215
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Well, Foundation does it.

216
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It actually, sorry, when you were talking about high concept stuff, the 1st episode really works, because it touches on Doc Smith and the Lensman, and it touches on foundation, and kids were reading more in those days, we didn't have as much to watch.

217
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So the big concept, SF novels, this is integrating with that and throwing up a lot of expectation because of that.

218
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But what I mean is like taking a myth and allegorising it, you know, we get it in Horns of Nimon in a couple of years time.

219
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And so what do you do, what do you have?

220
00:13:39.720 --> 00:13:43.019
And it becomes a bit of a thing in science fiction of this time.

221
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:52.500
Star Wars is a sort of example where you take mythic elements or even just whole myths. and then reinterpret them wholesale as science fiction.

222
00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:57.480
And so this is, as we said, taking the journey of the Argo.

223
00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.139
But what it takes is really fun, romantic, mythic ideas.

224
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:10.019
So you've got a golden fleece hanging from a tree at the end of the world, guarded by a dragon, and you turn the golden fleece into...

225
00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:11.460
A couple of plumbing rolls. cylinders.

226
00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:25.200
You turn the tree into some crummy CSO corridors, and you turn the dragon into, you know, a few sparks that, you know, delay the doctor and Leila for about maybe 15 seconds of screen time.

227
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:32.100
And so the whole thing is just vastly, vastly less interesting than the source material.

228
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:42.419
Again, we come down to the transposition from the really interesting ideas and not, oh, okay, it's not the script we just had, but it shouldn't be that bad to a visual.

229
00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:43.200
Oh, hang on.

230
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:44.039
No, it's the opposite.

231
00:14:44.100 --> 00:14:45.899
Visually, it looked really good to start with.

232
00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:48.419
What's going horribly wrong here?

233
00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:54.000
You talked about Doc Smith, you know, Lens Smith, that sort of thing, as example.

234
00:14:54.059 --> 00:14:55.679
Yeah, big stories. and they're terrible.

235
00:14:55.740 --> 00:14:57.539
I mean, Doc Smith is shockingly bad.

236
00:14:57.659 --> 00:15:01.139
Okay, they're not that well written, I've got to admit. when you're 12, 13.

237
00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:02.220
One love one.

238
00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:04.799
And the concept of gorgeous foundation is fun.

239
00:15:04.860 --> 00:15:08.460
Yeah, but compared to this, do you know what I mean?

240
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:10.919
This has no stakes, no action.

241
00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.019
I've got my notes here.

242
00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:20.159
And I've just written the words dull, dull, dull, dull, dull for part. for part two.

243
00:15:20.220 --> 00:15:22.440
I've just got sex comedy romp.

244
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:24.779
Rod has.

245
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:29.340
When the R1C went into the pile of crap, I felt that was an analogy.

246
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:31.500
No, he's right.

247
00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:33.299
He really is...

248
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:36.299
I mean, this is just really terribly boring and terribly dull.

249
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:40.919
And, like, you've got villains, and the villains used to wear bags on their heads.

250
00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:41.580
Do you know what I mean?

251
00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:45.480
Oh, and yes, all of the episodes are underrunning.

252
00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:46.559
And so...

253
00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:47.879
By an enormous...

254
00:15:47.940 --> 00:15:53.460
And so I'm starting to notice the baghead villains wandering through the corridors.

255
00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:55.980
In the same short time over and over again.

256
00:15:55.980 --> 00:16:04.259
And like I'm taking audio notes as I'm watching it and I hear myself like, oh, my God, it's another scene of that surveillance camera.

257
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:06.840
You know, it's it's slow.

258
00:16:06.899 --> 00:16:10.200
It's got nothing going for it. impoverished, isn't it?

259
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:20.519
I mean, Tom, the thing that it sustains it is that Tom is so cranky about all of that, that the energy that he's just got battered up, and this is why the scenes with he and Alan Lake are great for me.

260
00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:21.539
There's not enough of them.

261
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.519
It should have been the Herrick and Tom show.

262
00:16:23.580 --> 00:16:38.460
It's funny that we keep talking about Star Wars because Star Wars in the UK was released between the Sunmakers and Underworld being broadcast because Sunmakers was broadcast just before Christmas, this was broadcast just after Christmas.

263
00:16:38.519 --> 00:16:44.700
So, you know, there's no sort of Star Wars influence here, as you were saying earlier, Richard, it's more of a Jerry Anderson influence.

264
00:16:44.759 --> 00:17:01.559
But it's interesting that Doctor Who is kind of copying. what other sci-fi is doing, and that is the filmation and animated sci-fi series from America, which were constantly recycling shots of people running along and having outlines of what happened.

265
00:17:01.620 --> 00:17:03.240
I am thinking Star Trek, the animated series.

266
00:17:03.299 --> 00:17:06.779
I'm thinking Planet of the Apes, the most boring cartoon series ever.

267
00:17:07.500 --> 00:17:10.980
It's so unfortunate, and I think the big problem is...

268
00:17:11.220 --> 00:17:12.119
No disagreement to you.

269
00:17:12.539 --> 00:17:15.180
I'm not even going to say problematic.

270
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:17.160
It's just really terrible Tyresome.

271
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.460
It's tiresome. problematic.

272
00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.339
It doesn't work very well with us tropes.

273
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.119
But I think I'm getting drunk on all of them.

274
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:34.440
The biggest problem is you can't even lay it at the feet of Baker and Martin.

275
00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:36.900
It's a decision made by the production team.

276
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:41.940
The production team decide to have all the caves on CSO, so they don't have to go out on location and shoot caves.

277
00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.099
They don't have to build full-size cage sets.

278
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:45.900
They can save some budget that way.

279
00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:47.700
And it's kind of like, you know what?

280
00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:52.019
If you're gonna do that, okay, but accept the fact that the CSO is limited.

281
00:17:52.079 --> 00:17:57.119
And what you do is you have a bloody cracker script, so the CSO doesn't matter.

282
00:17:57.180 --> 00:18:10.799
And this script, And the invisible enemy are indicative of that thing Todd has been saying all the way through season 14, which is Bob Baker and Dave Martin write 2 good episodes of Doctor Who a year, and in this year they write eight.

283
00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:12.900
I don't think they managed 2 good episodes.

284
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:14.759
What are you talking about?

285
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.299
I mean, this is, you know, and the CSO is bad.

286
00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:24.240
So you'll have characters running through shot with, you know, bits of them don't...

287
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.380
Well, they run up the side of a wall.

288
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.339
Yeah, yeah.

289
00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:31.319
Or, you know, they seem to be turning a corner into a corridor, but it just looks like they're walking out through the wall.

290
00:18:31.380 --> 00:18:32.579
It's a brave choice.

291
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:36.359
It's a brave choice, but it's not the worst thing. stupid choice.

292
00:18:36.420 --> 00:18:37.140
It is bad.

293
00:18:37.380 --> 00:18:38.819
It's really, really bad.

294
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:46.200
It's not the great pop art comic books there, so we got in Terror of the Autons, which was really fun, or even the mutants.

295
00:18:46.259 --> 00:18:50.759
And you know, I'm no fan of that story, but I would much prefer to watch the mutants over this.

296
00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:53.339
They were arresting visuals, though, CSOs.

297
00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:55.319
They were the colourful...

298
00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:55.920
They were gorgeous.

299
00:18:55.980 --> 00:18:57.720
And they were very much of the idiom of the time.

300
00:18:57.779 --> 00:18:59.160
It felt like the top of the pops.

301
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.140
It felt like very glam.

302
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:03.660
But there was also that sense of transcendence.

303
00:19:03.779 --> 00:19:06.720
And that sense of genuine other reality.

304
00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:12.480
Whereas this is shoddy and dull and everything's brown and there's really...

305
00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:13.079
Everything's brown.

306
00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:14.279
I think we've got a title.

307
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.299
Come to think of it, why isn't it psychedelic?

308
00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:19.980
Why does it have to be brown?

309
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:21.000
If it's going to be brown.

310
00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:22.619
Just put it in a real cage.

311
00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:23.819
I would have loved.

312
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:24.180
Thank you.

313
00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:25.380
I would have loved a glittering.

314
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:40.920
This is the fact we're talking about last time of Doctor Who has always was always, and the reason we loved it in the early days was that it thought, like, in fact, the Avengers stories that Brendan's talked about, it thought beyond and above itself, and it thought to the future.

315
00:19:40.980 --> 00:19:42.779
It was never in and of its time.

316
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.299
It was kind of just at the fringe of now and then what else?

317
00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.220
I'm always promulgating.

318
00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:49.740
Now, it seems to be recidivist.

319
00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:51.059
It's actually looking...

320
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:52.019
What do you reckon?

321
00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.359
Yeah, the where's the imagination?

322
00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:55.920
There's some great ideas.

323
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:59.400
But I'm not getting them conceived into visual.

324
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:01.380
This should have been a glittering space.

325
00:20:01.380 --> 00:20:07.500
The only thing that's kind of engaging and even as a child is the null gravity point where they're floating down.

326
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:10.740
And I like that because that's so bad.

327
00:20:10.799 --> 00:20:16.440
I like it because Tom looks completely disinterested in the actual area, which says, yeah, of course.

328
00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:21.660
This is just a normal effect effect of being at a null point. scientifically, it almost works.

329
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.059
You know, you are actually at the centre, it's the centre.

330
00:20:24.180 --> 00:20:28.980
No, it's another, it's another planet Voga where we've got no idea what gravity is and how it works.

331
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:32.940
But the dismissal of Tom and the, yes, but it's kind of bloody in general.

332
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:33.539
What can I tell you?

333
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.779
And as a child, we loved those moments of other.

334
00:20:36.839 --> 00:20:37.859
Yeah, yeah.

335
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.539
That is this stories.

336
00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:45.660
We're heading into the land of dreams and fantasies, Leila. you know, it's it's kind of the redeeming thing.

337
00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:49.259
Like you say, it's lack of imagination.

338
00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:50.519
We're having a cave.

339
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:51.480
Let's make it brown.

340
00:20:51.539 --> 00:20:57.480
Yeah, that would be great if you didn't have almost everyone else in the story wearing brown.

341
00:20:57.539 --> 00:20:58.799
The doctor's wearing brown.

342
00:20:58.859 --> 00:21:00.119
Leila's wearing brown.

343
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:02.640
The miners are wearing brown.

344
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:03.720
It's minors again.

345
00:21:03.779 --> 00:21:04.920
The overseas?

346
00:21:04.980 --> 00:21:11.519
It's 1977, if you remember, there was a lot of chocolate focarti and velveteen on your mum's modular sofa.

347
00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:11.880
There was.

348
00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:12.779
Yeah, yeah.

349
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.779
We haven't even got to the quarry tiles yet, have we?

350
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:17.640
We've got characters in spacesuits.

351
00:21:17.700 --> 00:21:19.140
So the spacesuits have to be reflective.

352
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:20.339
Not the best idea.

353
00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:23.759
When you're doing CSO.

354
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:27.240
It's really just.

355
00:21:27.299 --> 00:21:31.559
You can feel that it's rushed and you can feel that Williams is kind of just holding on there.

356
00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:35.160
But all points to him because we know this was not going to get produced.

357
00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:40.619
The directive was, it's okay. you can have this time off the season because you don't have the money to do it.

358
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:43.980
But then they would have lost that same, because this is how the BBC would.

359
00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:46.680
They would have lost that budget for the next year.

360
00:21:46.740 --> 00:21:48.240
So they had to do it.

361
00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:54.119
Well, we'll talk more about that next week as well with the invasion of time because it continued to press on and push in there.

362
00:21:54.180 --> 00:22:05.220
Look, I know they were up against it in terms of time, but I think a few extra hours at the pre-production stage of just if someone had said, is that the best we can do?

363
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:12.599
Is that the best we can do within the fact that we need to do this all within the studio, within the fact that we need to do this all against green screen?

364
00:22:12.660 --> 00:22:14.220
Still think about...

365
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:16.799
Brown caves.

366
00:22:16.859 --> 00:22:18.420
Okay, how about blue caves?

367
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:20.579
Because we're keying them in.

368
00:22:20.640 --> 00:22:21.420
How about green caves?

369
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:24.359
Because we're keying them in against green and that'll keep the lighting right.

370
00:22:24.420 --> 00:22:27.900
You seem to have forgotten that minerals can also be highly colourful.

371
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:28.440
Yeah.

372
00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:37.259
You know, I didn't think I was so angry about the story, but I really am because it could have been mindless and passable, but instead it's just mindless.

373
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:42.420
But I really, really think that the production problems, although they're terrible.

374
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:43.980
They're not the worst thing about it.

375
00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:45.180
The worst thing is the script.

376
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:52.019
And it's this just continual blind spot when it comes to hiring Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

377
00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:54.779
Instead of getting them to serve the tea.

378
00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:59.819
You know, they're really, really, really terrible.

379
00:22:59.940 --> 00:23:04.619
And they'll continue next year to be utterly terrible until they break up.

380
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:05.640
Do you know what I mean?

381
00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.759
That was an acrimonious divorce, wasn't it?

382
00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:14.220
But the levels of sort of self-hatred in that writer's room. you know what I mean?

383
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.799
We're responsible for the hand of fear.

384
00:23:16.859 --> 00:23:19.740
Oh, darling, it's fine. do it, you know.

385
00:23:20.759 --> 00:23:23.339
Let's talk villains.

386
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:28.619
We have mentioned that the villains just are guys with bags on their heads.

387
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.380
They have names, apparently, but I can't remember any of them.

388
00:23:31.440 --> 00:23:33.180
What are they trying to do?

389
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:33.660
don't know.

390
00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:37.019
They're trying to protect the shiny things.

391
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:38.519
The race banks.

392
00:23:38.579 --> 00:23:41.460
I don't even know if they're race banks now.

393
00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:41.880
Yeah.

394
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:51.720
It's just, you've got Oracle who I'm pretty sure was lifted for an episode of Futurama, as the Femputer, as played by BR.

395
00:23:51.779 --> 00:23:52.980
No, no, the Arthur.

396
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:54.000
Yes, that's right.

397
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:56.700
Sigourney Weaver plays the pron of the expression, yeah.

398
00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:57.299
Yeah, that's right.

399
00:23:57.359 --> 00:23:58.680
Yeah, you've got this.

400
00:23:58.740 --> 00:24:03.299
Admittedly, you know, female computer, female sentient computer.

401
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.279
You don't see that very often in sci-fi.

402
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:06.420
Well, not since last year.

403
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.880
Not since last year when it was Pamela Sailor.

404
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:16.440
Yeah, and let's just think of what a just pathetic, dismal retread that computer is of the wonderful computer the previous year.

405
00:24:16.500 --> 00:24:19.019
And does everything sort of on one level?

406
00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:20.700
in the face of evil.

407
00:24:20.940 --> 00:24:23.160
Yeah, no, it's terrible.

408
00:24:23.220 --> 00:24:24.119
And then what's its plan?

409
00:24:24.180 --> 00:24:38.519
It duplicates, so we're here to get the race banks. you know, as if we care and and you know, I think you get a sword and you kind of prize the race banks out of the computer and and head off with them, but really they're bombs or something.

410
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:38.940
Yeah.

411
00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:42.779
And then when they give them the bombs back.

412
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:47.759
The baghead guys are such obtuse idiots that they refuse.

413
00:24:47.819 --> 00:24:50.519
Why are they wearing bags on their head?

414
00:24:50.579 --> 00:24:52.140
Like, it's crazy.

415
00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:53.460
You can't tell who's talking?

416
00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:54.779
You don't care.

417
00:24:54.839 --> 00:25:00.420
They all have names, I think, in the script, but you can't tell them apart and they have no characters.

418
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.799
It's not like Rego.

419
00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:03.359
They're Daleks, isn't it?

420
00:25:03.480 --> 00:25:04.920
There's Rask.

421
00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:09.599
Tarn, Klimpt, Unk, and Luck.

422
00:25:09.660 --> 00:25:10.980
Didn't they?

423
00:25:10.980 --> 00:25:12.779
Weren't they all drivers in the wacky roses?

424
00:25:13.619 --> 00:25:18.599
Nathan, I have waited. over 50 episodes to say this to you.

425
00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:22.259
I don't know who any of those people are.

426
00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.940
And there is, of course, also Norman Tipton.

427
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.200
As Arctics.

428
00:25:28.259 --> 00:25:29.819
As an Edas.

429
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:32.579
He's Arctics in Blake 7, although they're essentially the same character.

430
00:25:32.640 --> 00:25:36.059
Well, I actually think he's much worse in this than he's in Blake's.

431
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:37.079
Junior Eric Idol.

432
00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:41.460
Yeah, he's got something going for him in the Blake 7 episodes, is it?

433
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:43.859
on 2 very early Blake 7 episodes.

434
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:56.339
But here he's just utterly wet and pathetic and then his father, who, you know, they're going to sacrifice and it's just, I think that the sacrifice scene is something that's always really terrible in Doctor Who.

435
00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:01.259
It's just lazy and kind of something that we've done a 100000000000 times before.

436
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:12.119
But here, who should be at stake, but Edas' old father, just to up the stakes and make everyone at home, not give a toss about what's going on.

437
00:26:12.180 --> 00:26:19.740
We wouldn't see such care for the audience again until the scene in the twin dilemma where someone's stolen some vegetables.

438
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:21.900
Oh, God.

439
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:24.599
Why are we watching this show?

440
00:26:24.660 --> 00:26:26.279
Oh, it's lovely.

441
00:26:26.339 --> 00:26:27.660
Can we just do Blake 7 now, please?

442
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.839
I'm just going to make a cup of tea, listener, if you're wondering.

443
00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:33.299
I'm thinking of drinking myself to death.

444
00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:36.599
You can do that on tea too if you watch this.

445
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:41.880
There are some great moments in this, and I've got to say, thinking back to my 12-year-old self. really enjoyed it.

446
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:42.660
Episode one.

447
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:44.819
Sorry, I really enjoyed episode one and episode four.

448
00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:49.079
You know, I think it's got almost nothing at all going forward at all.

449
00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:52.559
It's gone to a point where you've got, if you have to ask your inner child what he thinks.

450
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:54.119
Yeah.

451
00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:55.559
There was one good bit.

452
00:26:55.619 --> 00:26:56.759
Okay.

453
00:26:56.819 --> 00:26:57.900
One good bit.

454
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:05.039
It's when the uh, one C is full of the, are they called trogs?

455
00:27:05.099 --> 00:27:06.660
Yeah, they actually are called.

456
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:08.339
Yeah, troglodytes, trogs.

457
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.559
So they're called...

458
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:16.799
They're the descendants of the original minions, and they're all, you know, kind of...

459
00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.740
They're very, very sensitively acted.

460
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:21.420
They're all cluttering up the pilots.

461
00:27:21.480 --> 00:27:23.160
They all get to get shouted at by unloads.

462
00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:25.259
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a very highlight for all of them, really.

463
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:29.759
So they're all cluttering up the place and Jackson wants to get rid of them.

464
00:27:29.819 --> 00:27:37.500
And the doctor makes the point that, you know, the stupid cylinder things are, you know, the minion race banks.

465
00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:44.640
But these, these are the actual descendants of the minions, you know, these, you're here to get people not to get a stupid science fiction thing.

466
00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:50.460
And that nearly, nearly qualifies as a worthwhile thing to do in the story.

467
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.319
But it is all over quite quickly.

468
00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:54.299
Yeah, they scrub over typically.

469
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:56.579
And it's not Tom's fault that it's scrubbed over too quickly.

470
00:27:58.019 --> 00:28:01.500
For me, the best thing about this story is episode one.

471
00:28:01.559 --> 00:28:03.660
I think episode one is actually perfectly possible.

472
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.039
So I find it really fun.

473
00:28:05.099 --> 00:28:07.559
I've been to a Lego version of it the year it came out.

474
00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:10.440
It's for bored people, one of whom is trying to kill themselves.

475
00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:11.460
Do you know what I mean?

476
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:12.480
Like it's...

477
00:28:12.539 --> 00:28:14.279
They were all doped out anyway.

478
00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:21.660
But it's also, it's also Tom and Louise realising they've got 3 pretty crap weeks up ahead.

479
00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:25.799
But still acting and giving performances.

480
00:28:25.859 --> 00:28:33.660
You know, Tom's not bored in those scenes. which would become a thing he would do later when he didn't like a script.

481
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:36.539
It all just goes rapidly downhill.

482
00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:38.220
And amazingly, I'm going to be Todd here.

483
00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:48.420
Part 4 gets the highest rating of any episode this season with 11.70000 viewers, over 20000000 more than episode three.

484
00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:51.240
What was happening that week?

485
00:28:51.299 --> 00:28:53.460
It was raining a lot.

486
00:28:53.460 --> 00:28:55.079
It was 28th of January.

487
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.240
So it was miserable.

488
00:28:57.299 --> 00:28:58.500
Yeah, miserable.

489
00:28:58.559 --> 00:28:59.940
All the pubs and clothes.

490
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:05.339
So is this the worst Doctor Who story since the celestial toy maker?

491
00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:13.619
I just want to say, though, as we've, if you ignore the CSO, if you make it beautiful, if you really like it gorgeously and you've got it.

492
00:29:13.619 --> 00:29:15.779
Then it would be the worst story of all time.

493
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:18.839
Yeah, at least of the 70s.

494
00:29:18.900 --> 00:29:20.819
I think it's the worst story of the 70s.

495
00:29:20.880 --> 00:29:28.319
It really proves my point that great design will propel a story to the forefront and make it work, but without a story.

496
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.500
Yeah, it's not like Sunmakers last week.

497
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:41.940
It was a lattish and, you know, expensive looking production, but it was at least written by someone who had the slightest clue of what might be entertaining to watch on television.

498
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:46.140
But this, you know, there's not that much CSO in it.

499
00:29:46.200 --> 00:29:47.940
It really... well yeah, there is.

500
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:57.240
But it just really is truly terrible by 2 writers who long since should have retired to raise begonias, I think.

501
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:21.180
Well, we've napped the Golden Fleece, and we're popping back off to paint the rest of the TARDIS now as we leave Underworld behind us with a very bad taste in our mouth.

502
00:30:21.299 --> 00:30:28.680
We will be back next week to discuss Graham Williams' first end of season extravaganza, the invasion of time.

503
00:30:28.740 --> 00:30:36.359
Please find us online at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

504
00:30:36.420 --> 00:30:40.859
Those of you who are fans of Skyfalls and we don't mean rocks falling on your head.

505
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:49.500
Please don't forget we have several James Bond commentaries available on Bondfinger.com covering now most of the Sean Connery era.

506
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:55.680
So that's Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and at Bondfingercast on Twitter.

507
00:30:55.799 --> 00:31:01.980
Until next time, may all your Skyfalls not include Daniel Craig saying he'd rather kill himself than play James Bond again.

508
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:03.539
Thank you very much and good night.

509
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:04.380
Good night.

510
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:05.339
Duck your heads.

511
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:09.240
That works.

512
00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:13.019
Like your entirety with Nathan Brockenry, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

513
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:19.319
This episode, sophisticated psychological realism was reported on Sunday, the 11th of October.

514
00:31:19.380 --> 00:31:22.440
The next episode will be released on November 29th.

515
00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:27.720
Stay tuned for some of Nathan's live reactions as he was watching Underworld.

516
00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:35.160
Oh, God, here goes.

517
00:31:35.160 --> 00:31:37.019
Underworld episode one.

518
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:41.160
Leo is operating the TARDIS controls for some reason.

519
00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:42.299
How is that working?

520
00:31:42.359 --> 00:31:45.720
Model shots are good, and so is the nebula effect.

521
00:31:45.779 --> 00:31:47.940
It's the set's all right.

522
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:50.519
You know, everyone's very boring though.

523
00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:51.660
All right, after all.

524
00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:57.420
For once, there's a woman on board the ship, but everyone's so boring, no one cares.

525
00:31:57.480 --> 00:31:58.920
So you're going.

526
00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:04.200
Well, that was really just a massively uninteresting episode.

527
00:32:04.259 --> 00:32:05.940
Like really nothing at all happened.

528
00:32:06.779 --> 00:32:09.359
It's underworld part two.

529
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:15.119
Oh, here's these people running through the crappy CSO corridors.

530
00:32:15.180 --> 00:32:16.019
This is dismal.

531
00:32:16.140 --> 00:32:18.420
So who's Idmon?

532
00:32:18.660 --> 00:32:24.119
These people with their bags on their heads are very boring.

533
00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:25.319
What the hell?

534
00:32:25.380 --> 00:32:26.700
Are they the seers?

535
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:29.940
They just delivery is terrible.

536
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.640
The door massively slow.

537
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:36.240
Just they're just reusing shots.

538
00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:37.799
It's so crap.

539
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:41.279
Another shot of that surveillance camera.

540
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:42.599
What's going on?

541
00:32:42.720 --> 00:32:43.920
We're just wandering around.

542
00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:44.819
Do something.

543
00:32:45.299 --> 00:32:48.000
God, it's also undramatic.

544
00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:51.480
Whatever blows can be sucked.

545
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:59.220
Just a massively undramatic and uninteresting playhanger to a really uninteresting episode.

546
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:01.559
What's the point of this?

547
00:33:02.940 --> 00:33:08.279
It's really not the CSO, that's the most offensive thing, although that's often terrible.

548
00:33:08.339 --> 00:33:10.559
It's just that this is so boring.

549
00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:12.299
What the hell is the point of it?

550
00:33:12.299 --> 00:33:16.859
There doesn't seem to be anything interesting going on at all now.

551
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:18.599
That was a very dull episode.

552
00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:25.980
All right, it's underworld episode three.

553
00:33:26.039 --> 00:33:32.640
I've waited a week or more between watching because I couldn't bear to look at it, but here it goes.

554
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:36.660
Horribly undramatic cliffhanger and here it is reversed.

555
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.180
But just by reversing the video, it's very easy.

556
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:45.059
And the villains don't even seem to have names or any characteristics at all.

557
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:46.799
They're just incredibly boring.

558
00:33:46.920 --> 00:33:53.579
I must say these 32nd scenes of canine going down CSO tunnels are very boring.

559
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:55.500
It's hard to know why they're included.

560
00:33:55.559 --> 00:34:03.119
One of the seers, the main guy has an incredible voice, but those hats, the facemasks are just ridiculous.

561
00:34:03.180 --> 00:34:04.079
What's the point of them?

562
00:34:04.140 --> 00:34:09.539
This fight scene with the escaping slaves is just incredibly pointless and boring.

563
00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.619
People running around shooting one another. is just not very interesting.

564
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:19.019
And Herrick just sacrifices himself for absolutely no reason.

565
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:21.719
There's nothing.

566
00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:22.920
Oh, there's a speaking woman.

567
00:34:23.699 --> 00:34:26.639
Oh, now we're doing the Trojan horse.

568
00:34:26.699 --> 00:34:27.900
Blah, blah, blah.

569
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:28.800
What are they?

570
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:31.860
The seers.

571
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:33.719
They've just got metal heads.

572
00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:34.679
What are they?

573
00:34:34.739 --> 00:34:35.579
They've evolved?

574
00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:36.179
What is that?

575
00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:46.320
Oh, and apparently the doctor and leader are about to be crushed because he fell by accident or something, but it's all shot very undramatically and it's not quite clear what's going on.

576
00:34:47.099 --> 00:34:51.119
The woman who speaks is called Naya for some reason.

577
00:34:51.599 --> 00:35:03.119
All right, now it's underworld, part four, which means that there's not very much left to go, and I'm anticipating a massively long reprise, which will be nice.

578
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:06.179
The more shooting with guns.

579
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.840
Oh my god, I've got nothing to say about this.

580
00:35:09.900 --> 00:35:11.340
This is so incredibly dull.

581
00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:18.179
And you can just prize the race banks out of their box with a sword, can you?

582
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:18.780
That's amazing.

583
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:20.880
Oh, look, there's a child, that rarely happens.

584
00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:29.400
I mean, it is good that the minions are people, like what they actually get is people rather than gold cylinders.

585
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:31.260
Like that's something.

586
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:32.219
Oh, dear.

587
00:35:33.000 --> 00:35:35.340
The modern work isn't good.

588
00:35:35.880 --> 00:35:39.840
Yeah, it took the Oracle a while to realise they were bombs.

589
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:43.139
Oh, there's some decent model work there.

590
00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:44.639
Like episode one.

591
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:45.840
They're not so bad.

592
00:35:47.519 --> 00:35:49.380
Oh, dear.

593
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:50.820
Well, that was terrible.

594
00:35:50.880 --> 00:35:52.980
So, Norman Stewart.

595
00:35:53.099 --> 00:35:55.260
Wait, he never directed again or before, I think.