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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:24:19

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast with a ponchant for television made in the style of early quasar 5 with a touch of Rigour and the merest hint of Second Dynasty Simeon Empire.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm a well oiled cog and a Flakati throw for this episode, so you'll be hearing nothing through me.

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And we've returned to the Planet of the Time, Lords, for the Graham Williams season finale, the invasion of time.

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So this is my responsibility, this one.

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And something I have wanted to save the last few weeks is, quite unconsciously, we've actually been building towards this season finale, in a way, Doctor Who really hasn't built towards a season finale since the Damons.

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In more than half the stories this season, we've found out a little bit more about Time Lord Society.

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So, an image of the Fendal, we find out they can destroy and time loop a whole planet.

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In the Sunmakers, of course, we find out that other races are aware of them but don't consider them financially viable.

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In underworld, of course, we get their policy of non-interference, which is a bit weird, considering, in the war games, they time Looper Planet, in image of the Fendal, they time Looper Planet, in terror of the autons, they send a man in a bowler hat to tell the doctor that the master's going to show up.

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And in Genesis of Daleks, they kick off the whole time war, but they don't interfere.

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They don't interfere.

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But I don't actually see a big problem with that because when you look at this story, they're a bunch of bloody hypocrites anyway, and it's wonderful.

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Can I just say, I hate the time loss.

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I think Gallifrey as well.

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And I think the whole show goes to hell the moment that it's revealed.

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A, that the doctor's a time, Lord, and then B, that he comes from the planet Gallifrey and the constellation.

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No offence to Gary Russell and his and the beautiful big finish series, Gala, which is my pick of the week, as it turns out.

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Oh, no, there is.

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And like last year, right, we went to Gallifrey.

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And it was, it was a huge event.

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We'd lost Sarah.

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The whole show's changing its focus.

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You know, we're heading away from the time lords.

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We've got the master and he's sort of reimagined as this sort of gothic returning Hinchcliffian villain and all of that.

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And it was a big event.

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A big world shanky event.

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Here we just sort of come back for a bit of running around while we get chased by some tin foil.

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You know what I mean?

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And then, you know, every subsequent galafray story will be just appallingly terrible without exception.

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And just think it's a bad idea.

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I was so glad when Russell blew it up.

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Oh, I'm not going to go to the pick of the week yet, but we've seen with Gary and his terrific team that the story is set on Gallifrey, the big finish I think have done for 6 series now, are really interesting and, you know, you get to that cod Shakespeare level of intrigue.

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It works so well, a closed environment with a lot of complex characters at loggerheads with each other is what Doctor Who does best.

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So it's a sort of eye, Claudius, political.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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And it should be doing that.

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And the reason in the future, well, not to preempt too much, but there are other reasons that those stories in the future won't be working and I don't think it's necessarily the base concept.

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What this is not, however, to say that this is not a workable or a functional story, I think, is not necessarily true.

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I love the time lords in this.

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I don't think it's not a functional story, but I do...

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I want a Barousa t-shirt.

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I want an Arnott, John Arnott t-shirt.

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You know, Angus McKay was always my barusa.

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Why are they always just that little bit camp?

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Yeah, actually, I want a t-shirt.

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Not a t-shirt.

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I just want to walk around at work and when people ask me for my advice, I just want to say things like, there is nothing more useless than a lock with a voice imprint.

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They can't slap you, you've got your personal force field.

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Haddling medallion on and the batteries are still fine.

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Yeah.

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You know, Nathan, when you're talking about Gallifrey being a place for political intrigue, I think of the Gallifrey stories in the classic series, this is the one that gets the right level of political intrigue to lightness of touch.

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Because when we discussed Deadly Assassin, something we said was, you know, it was too nasty. it was too mean.

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Whereas this, Kelna, Barusa, Andred, they all have a sense of humour, even Chief Surgeon Goma, who doesn't get much lines.

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They've all got a bit of a sense of humour, but it doesn't mean we laugh at the characters.

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Their sources of comedy rub, the figures of comedy.

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And I think that's one of the areas where this story succeeds.

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We don't need the time lords to be the sources of comedy because we have Derek Deadman.

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Well, really unfortunate choice for an actor's name to, you know, if he was going to change his name to something, Probably not dead.

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves, however.

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Going to someone else in this, is there?

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Going back to the beginning, some people out there may not know this, this was not originally the story for this.

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Not at all.

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Anthony Reid had worked with a writer on, I think, The Persuaders. called Philip Weir.

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And so, knew that we could write, well, that he could write interesting stuff.

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The production team had already been up against it with Underworld.

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So they thought, no, we need someone who's reliable.

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We've got a very short lead in for this.

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And they devised this idea.

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The central starting idea was, what if not everyone on Gallifree's time are time wards?

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Yes.

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You know, because we've got one dominant species on Earth.

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It doesn't mean that everywhere else in the galaxy you've got only one dominant species.

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So the idea was that there was going to be a race of cat people living on Galaxy.

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Presaging the internet.

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That's right And so the story was provisionally entitled Killers in the Dark, or Killers of the Dark.

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In the 1980s, Graham Williams couldn't remember what it was called and jokingly referred to it as the killers of Jinseng, which people actually took seriously.

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It was at a convention.

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Yeah, and Anthony Reid and David Weir sat down and wrote a storyline, and David Weir went away to writing scripts, and he only had 4 weeks to write 6 scripts, which even for Doctor Who was considered a type turnaround.

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Optimistic, yes.

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Now, the 1st 5 scripts arrived exactly on the due date.

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And for Doctor Who, that was unusual.

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That's the reason that such a short date was set because they said to him, look, we know you're probably going to take another two. 2 weeks.

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It's fine.

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Don't worry about it, but this is the date we put on the paperwork.

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So the 1st 5 scripts comes in, Anthony Reid goes, oh, this is great.

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You know, we've already got the director working on it.

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We've already got our costume designer designing cat people, and those design documents exist, and you can see them on the DVD.

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I started reading the scripts and realised that the narrative was completely incomprehensible and also David Weir had severely overestimated the Doctor Who budget in that one episode Cliffhanger involved the Doctor and Leila in gladiatorial combat in the middle of something the size of Wembley Stadium filled with cat people.

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Yeah.

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So...

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Or just cats.

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Yeah.

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So the situation they were in was this.

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They had an unworkable script for the season finale.

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A scene shifters strike meant that half their studio time was given over to the yearly Christmas specials.

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They were offered to truncate the series and to be able to carry the money over.

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So when they were offered to truncate underworld, they were told, you won't get the money, they were actually told, you can carry the money over till next year.

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Now, Graham Williams didn't trust that because he knew what the BBC was.

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And precedents would have been, yes, you'd have just lost that budget next year round.

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Yeah, and it would have been, well, you know, if you can only make 20 episodes at a time.

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We'll only give you 20 episodes next year.

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We'll never see that happening in the future, will we?

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No.

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Not only that, but they also had a director who'd already started working on it.

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They were reliant on it being on Gallifray and reusing sets and pieces from the Deadly Assassin.

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So were they on in storage?

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They make the design so great?

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Because they looked remarkably close to...

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The walls were the same flat. in storage. thought the flats were, yeah.

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Pretty much the area that's reused is like where the TARDIS lands and the coronation area, that was the president's area, where the president comes down and gets shot from deadly assassin.

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Yeah, so that just looks more slightly more spacious.

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Yeah, it does because the Deadly Assassin had that really dark Gothic thing.

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Like, it didn't matter...

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It didn't manage to be stone or anything.

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It was still sort of tacky plastic.

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Well, you know, it's meant to look like it's made of glass.

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The whole of Galifre, the Capitol is meant to be carved in and cast in glass, which is why you've got those shiny green disco edges on everything.

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But until you know that, it just looks like Lulu set from top of the pot.

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I like it in Deadly Assassin.

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Yeah, it's it's amazing that in all the galafray stories we get in the classic series, isn't it?

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half dozen or less, that we never see the capital from the outside.

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Well, we just can't afford it, can we?

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Well, they made the city of Mechanus with matchsticks and wax.

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That looked great.

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Yeah, exactly.

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A model would have been very nice, thank you.

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And finally, they had very little budget for new costume. because half the costume designers' time was already taken up designing killer cats, which they then realised they couldn't afford to make.

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So...

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Anthony Reid went home and wrote... and wrote the script, and instead of sending it in episode by episode, he sent it in, scene by scene, to Gerald Blake, the director.

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And so Gerald Blake would read through them while Gerald Blake was reading through them, Graham Williams was rewriting them and script editing them.

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So Graham Williams took over a script editor.

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Graham Williams then went home one Monday night and stayed up 3 days straight until Friday morning giving the final script rewrite.

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So that is the situation we head into with this story.

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You know, I think this might be the worst season of the 1970s, but it is a miracle that it got made at all under these circumstances.

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And there are great moments in this season, aren't there?

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Absolutely.

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And you know what?

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I think this is very comfortably the 2nd or 3rd best of this season.

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It's actually a terrific story, Doctor Who story.

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Because of John Arnott and Tom Baker, and bloke who plays Guy Crayford.

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Oh, Milton John.

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I just want to call him a guy from everything.

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Gee, it's got lovely casting.

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Six parters never really worked.

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Not since Keys of Mariners, which is cracking.

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Fantastic.

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And I think I think this has a good chance of working in some degrees because it does the thing that keys of mariners does.

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It's 3 stories.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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That 1st two-parter does something that we have never, ever seen before.

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Tom Baker behaving himself on acting?

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No, Tom Baker acting, yeah.

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No, it is that thing where the very 1st scene, isn't it?

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is the doctor, the doctor being furtive and but he's already met the aliens.

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He's already never phoned out now.

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So it plunges right in medias rays in a way that we've never, ever seen. par for the course for the new series, isn't it?

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You know, but it's never happened in the classic series before.

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We're all standing around the Tartars faffing around and talking about, you know, like our last adventure or whatever and then we turn up or or, you know, we get to meet some other characters and stuff and then the Tartars arise.

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We've never had this thing where we arrive in the middle of something where the doctor's already met the aliens.

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He's made some deal with them.

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We don't know what it is.

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You know, Leila is being suspicious and we're suspicious of him as well.

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And it's not resolved until, like, episode three.

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I mean, essentially, the first two episodes are what the hell is the doctor doing?

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Then you get 2 episodes of sort of running around, away from the Vardens, and then you've got another 2 episodes of running away from this on tarns.

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And they're not that successful, but at least the show goes somewhere.

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Yeah, I think that Graham Williams and Anthony Reed here are co-writing together under the BBC approved pseudonym of David Agnew, which was a sort of BBC general pseudonym for, if a writer wants to take their name off a script or a writer can't be credited because, let's say, they're the script editor and producer.

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I think they've been very clever in that, in order to get the plot moving along.

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They are constantly changing it.

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But at the same time, they rely on two very specific cliffhanger devices.

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The cliffhanger endings for episodes one, three, and five are all, the doctor being threatened, ending for episode one is the doctor being attacked by the crown, which, according to the script, is meant to imply that the Vardens are accessing the Matrix and have possibly discovered, but they couldn't convey that without spoiling episode 3 where he explains what's going on.

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The end of episode 3 is Andred about to shoot the doctor.

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And the end of episode 5 is Kelner attacking the TARDIS.

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The end of episode 2 is the reveal of the Vardens.

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The end of episode 4 is the reveal of the Santarans, and the end of episode 6 is the reveal of canine Mark 2.

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Yeah, it's...

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It's terrible tombstone teeth.

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No, this story comes in for some flack, particularly, not even the Sonic screwdriver will get me out of this one.

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Oh, break that 4th wall straight to camera.

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And it's 2 story.

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Yeah, so do I. So do I. And it's 2 stories running where he breaks the 4th wall, because of course, in Underworld. where it all went.

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Wonder the blurs can be sucked. of his future career. 4 points to Gerald Blake, the director of this.

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He did Abominable Snowman, which I really love as an audio.

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And yeah, also the, I think it's the Abbot from the Abominable Snowman is back, who was also Hogg in an unearthly child.

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His name is Charles Morgan.

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Gold.

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Gold.

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Gold.

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No, he...

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He's the Abbott in...

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In the outrageous hat.

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Oh, the Abbot, not Padma Sam.

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Not Pamba Samba.

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He's the abbot.

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I had an opportunity to say Padmis Abba.

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You're very happy so long.

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And of course, he was Hog way back in an unearthly child.

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He was hers mother.

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Sorry, he was her's father, I should say.

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Quite liked her. couldn't stand here.

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Yeah, and he's, you know, he's quite good.

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And we get that intrigue in episode two, you know.

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And he's got that wonderful fruity voice.

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He is part of the Matrix.

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It cannot reject him.

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There's no one in this I don't like.

210
00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:41.460
I've actually warmed to Andrew now.

211
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.440
I find him charming and I can see.

212
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:45.480
I thank you, Louise Jamison.

213
00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:54.000
Thank you, Chris, for getting those beats that they all just could do in rehearsal so rushed, and sadly, there was no script time, but just trying to build a relationship between these two.

214
00:15:54.059 --> 00:15:54.720
Yeah.

215
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:55.980
I think Leela leaves.

216
00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:58.500
I'm sorry to jump in because, you know, this is what we do, timeywami.

217
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.419
Leila leaves on an excuse.

218
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:06.539
She fancies this boy, the character writing for this has received a lot of flack, not least from Louise Jamieson herself.

219
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.759
But it makes perfect sense to me.

220
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:11.940
To me, Leila's really no older than 1819.

221
00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:16.019
I don't know how the character's age, but she's a young person in the 17.

222
00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:17.460
This is her first crush.

223
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.179
And you think about how that was for you.

224
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.120
This is the entire world when you first fall for someone.

225
00:16:24.179 --> 00:16:27.840
Yeah, and also, Tom has been a complete arse.

226
00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:29.519
And I didn't say the doctor.

227
00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:31.019
Tom has been awful.

228
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:39.419
She really is perfunctory with her to the point of then open dismissal and denigration of her against the Vardens.

229
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:46.139
And instead of sulking as she did in underworld, She says, no, I have my micro values.

230
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:47.159
I know this is a decent man.

231
00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:49.379
I will defend him even though I don't understand what's going on.

232
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:51.179
But she must be miffed by it.

233
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.519
I think this is actually, you know what?

234
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.759
I'm going to sort all of these folk out as well and you.

235
00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:58.559
Yeah, you know what?

236
00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:06.720
I've never seen her leaving as a huge problem, and I think it's entirely because of Chris Tranchall and Louise Jameson's performances.

237
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:11.700
They've obviously looked at this script and they would have known it was done in a hurry.

238
00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:24.660
They would have known the situation at the very least, Louise would have because the producers of Doctor Who always seemed to be very open and honest with their stuff. you know, there are some exceptions like what happened to Maureen O'Brien and Jackie Lane.

239
00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:29.099
But by this stage, it seems like people work together in quite a tight-knit team.

240
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:30.480
So yeah, absolutely.

241
00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:31.500
They go, you know what?

242
00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:40.859
By this point, we have to get to a point where it's kind of believable that we get together and actors love that kind of thing.

243
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:47.940
Some actors much prefer not having a clearly defined character that they can then inject character into themselves.

244
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.200
And it's right.

245
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:50.579
That's very modernest theatre way.

246
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.599
Well, you know what happened?

247
00:17:51.660 --> 00:18:00.960
So just before, because I know there'll probably be a counter opinion to this amongst us, but just to press you that, Gerald Blake deliberately knew what had been going on with Louise and Tom.

248
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:09.480
And that's why he said, Tom, what was working with John Arnott and doing gorgeous things together on their Con Shakespeare Roby Frocky thing over in the corner.

249
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:17.700
And also said to Tom on the 1st day, oh, I remember when you were Patrick Troughton and Charming. you know that?

250
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.779
And really put him in his place because it actually, unless you're an older statesman.

251
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.339
You couldn't control Tom by this stage.

252
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:30.960
And unfortunately, Williams, as has later come out, was, you know, having his own private difficulties and just really not keeping the reins on Tom the way Hinchcliffe did.

253
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:34.140
So I just love I love the scenes with Tom and John Arnott.

254
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:36.240
I love that they're entirely separate from the Leila saints.

255
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:36.539
Go on.

256
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:43.440
So then, see, I think that the Leila Andrew thing, we all desperately would like for it to work, but it just doesn't.

257
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:50.759
And there's one scene early on, which is sort of a rom-com, you know, where they're being antagonists.

258
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:56.700
And I think that in the wardrobe, he keeps calling him madam and then correcting himself.

259
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:01.140
Call me madam, a lovely community. musical of it. 50s, yes.

260
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:06.000
Um, uh, you know, she wants to bring a knife into the doctor's investiture, all of that sort of thing.

261
00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:06.960
It's in episode.

262
00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:07.799
She don't sit by now.

263
00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:10.799
And it's quite a good scene.

264
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:11.759
Do you know what I mean?

265
00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:13.380
And the 2 of them weren't quite well together.

266
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.619
And I remember watching it this time through and feeling a bit of relief.

267
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:18.420
Or maybe they do properly sell this.

268
00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:27.599
But basically, like they hold hands once in the subsequent 5 episodes, maybe they glance at each other.

269
00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:34.619
I think there's no way of seeing it other than as the worst companion departure of the 1970s apart from Liz.

270
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.660
The 60s was cruel to companions.

271
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:37.380
Do you know what I mean?

272
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.839
It would throw them out, you know, and all of that sort of thing.

273
00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:42.240
Vicky, I'm still heartbroken about Vicky.

274
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:48.660
The 70s, they've learned to do a better job and both Joe and Sarah got great leaving scenes.

275
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.000
Here, it's just utterly perfunctory.

276
00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:53.640
And I have to say, much as I love the Williams years.

277
00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:56.460
It's something that he's shockingly bad at.

278
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:57.539
Yeah, yeah.

279
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.779
Inasmuch as his successor, John Nathan Turner, who comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it justified.

280
00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:08.039
John Nathan Turner, always does good companion departures.

281
00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:16.740
He's very sensitive to the same thing that Russell is with the, you know, the sitcom way or the soap way of writing in that there's a continuity.

282
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:21.779
I think maybe we're just all seeing this relationship through a heteronormative projection.

283
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:29.940
Who's to say that, really, that's, I think the relationship is perfectly working as a subdom. paradigm.

284
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.599
I just think you know who gets to wear the feather boa in that relationship.

285
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:34.500
It's not Lima.

286
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.039
Well, consider consider commander Maxwell's hat later on.

287
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.579
Yeah, I just think there's just too little to it.

288
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.420
Do you know what I mean?

289
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.339
Like, it's not given it enough screen time.

290
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:45.420
It is an afterthought.

291
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.039
It's like Mel.

292
00:20:47.099 --> 00:20:51.299
Remember Mel's departure where she goes off with sablong glitz for no readily apparent reason?

293
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.099
And it is that...

294
00:20:53.099 --> 00:20:55.079
It shoots down the GMT argument, doesn't it?

295
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.539
Because it's the only time who gets lovely dialogue.

296
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.940
It's the only time that JNT gets it wrong.

297
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:06.059
And it is these days you would just nip back to earth for a final 32nd scene and say goodbye to them.

298
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:06.900
Do you know what I mean?

299
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:11.759
But we're on Gallifrey, but we've somehow got to get rid of Louise, what the hell do we do?

300
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:12.960
Do you know what I mean?

301
00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:13.740
We'll marry her off.

302
00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:15.180
Now, I think it's Paul.

303
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:21.599
As a boy, I wanted her to be disintegrated by the D-Mat gun and then and the doctor losing his memory over that.

304
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.319
Yeah, and that's what Louise Jameson wanted as well.

305
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:27.000
She wanted to see Leila killed off.

306
00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:34.500
The whole problem came from the fact that Graham Williams was under so much pressure that when Louis Jameson kept saying, no, really, I don't want to do another year.

307
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.660
He kept thinking, oh, I'll bring around.

308
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:37.319
She'll come around.

309
00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.839
It's exactly what will happen next year with Mary Tam.

310
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:44.940
So the problem is at the 11th hour, she's like, no, really, you need to write me a leaving scene.

311
00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:54.720
And so he writes that in and I think on the DVD or in an interview, I've seen Louise give reaction was just kind of, oh, what?

312
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:02.099
I specifically said, kill me or something. don't marry me off I'm very grateful they didn't kill off Leila.

313
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.660
Yeah, I was a child viewer.

314
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.299
I would have been, you don't do that to children.

315
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:07.380
No, absolutely.

316
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.299
I mean, big finish have sort of spoiler alert killed off Leila.

317
00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:13.140
I say sort of.

318
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.519
You'll need to listen to it, folks.

319
00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:18.480
But in a way, that's okay because that's not children watching it.

320
00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:19.799
It's us now.

321
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:23.220
And yeah, again, that's it. for fat 40 something.

322
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.819
Thank you.

323
00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:25.259
You're all right.

324
00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:30.240
I have no problem with it because as again, I then saw it.

325
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:39.960
And even as a young man, I saw it as, no, no, this is Leila's excuse to get away from a really agitating doctor that she's kind of fallen out with.

326
00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.220
It's just not fun anymore, doctor.

327
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.359
Yeah.

328
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:43.500
But I mean, even do that.

329
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:44.460
Do you know what I mean?

330
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:45.119
Like, do something.

331
00:22:45.180 --> 00:22:46.799
Oh, he's perfunctory.

332
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:47.640
First crush, though.

333
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.599
First crush.

334
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:52.500
No, I believe it works within the confines of the story.

335
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:54.660
And did we say, John Arnott?

336
00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:56.039
John Arnott.

337
00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:57.599
Oh, he is wonderful.

338
00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.579
He's our Gelgood.

339
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:01.980
Hermione Gilgood yes.

340
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:07.680
Todd said when we were doing the deadly assassin, that the deadly assassin was never really on his radar as a kid.

341
00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:09.599
This was his barusa.

342
00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:10.920
And you know what?

343
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.839
I have to agree.

344
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:15.359
I think he's...

345
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:17.279
He's the only one I like, actually.

346
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:18.420
It was that weird thing.

347
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.200
And we probably talked about it when we did Deadly Assassin.

348
00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:24.660
We didn't see Deadly Assassin.

349
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.200
No, we didn't.

350
00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:27.960
We read the novel before we saw the episode.

351
00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:34.680
Yeah, but I think I saw this before I read the novel of Deadly Assassin or saw Deadly Assassin.

352
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:36.960
So this is my 1st introduction to Gallifrey.

353
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:45.900
And it is a sequel you are kind of expected to know what the Matrix is, and all of that sort of thing, and the sash, that hilarious sash that the master tried to hit the doctor with.

354
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:51.059
Yeah, yeah. broken it because if you look at it, the join is terrible where it joins up.

355
00:23:51.119 --> 00:24:03.000
But there is actually a little nice piece of dialogue in the 1st episode that attempts to re-explain the Matrix in very simple dialogue that's not just characters telling each other things they already know.

356
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:07.140
It's Peruso kind of saying to doctor, you don't know this because you don't pay attention to anything.

357
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.920
So I'm going to tell you once more and any teacher can sympathise with that.

358
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:22.500
It is, it's actually the Matrix for the 1st time that really, I mean, they call, use the word Matrix, I think, in Deadly Assassin, but it is the APC net, and so they turn, this is the kind of creation of the Matrix.

359
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:23.579
Yes, that's true.

360
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:25.920
It's also the creation of Rassalon, really.

361
00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:32.519
You know, Rastlon gets a mention in deadly assassin, but I think the doctor has to have him explained, doesn't he?

362
00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:35.160
Like they, no one really knows who he is.

363
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.519
Here now in the investitures scene. you know what I mean?

364
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:44.579
It's the sash of Rassalon and the robe of Rassalon and the breeches of Rassalon. polka dotted pyjamas of wrestle.

365
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:45.660
Yeah, he's got everything.

366
00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:46.680
You know what I mean?

367
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.980
I'm just thinking of Timothy Dalton's pyjamas now.

368
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:52.440
Oh, yeah.

369
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:53.700
Yeah, I know, right?

370
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:55.740
Are we at the Vardens yet?

371
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.359
Yeah, let's get the vans.

372
00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:57.779
Yeah.

373
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:59.279
Now I want to say...

374
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.460
The Bardens look amazing.

375
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:03.599
They do.

376
00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:09.839
How many milk bars did you go in while you were at school that had Myla fringe curtains, fly screen curtains, just like that?

377
00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:11.099
It's so realistic.

378
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:14.099
There's a 2nd half to that sentence.

379
00:25:14.579 --> 00:25:18.480
On the special edition, new effects of the DVD.

380
00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:19.740
Oh, you're kidding.

381
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:21.059
Is there a special issue?

382
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:21.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

383
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:23.700
I'm going home now and watching it.

384
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:24.539
What do they look like?

385
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.440
They look like energy beings in Star Trek, the next generation.

386
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.019
They look like bipedal features.

387
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:35.700
I think they're done by John Kelly. and he... just look like these things.

388
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.279
They look like transporter victims before they melt down.

389
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

390
00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:42.359
It looks like the Star Trek Transporter effect. electricity crackling along them.

391
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:50.940
They're actually bipedal figures and John Kelly either filmed himself or filmed someone else and then rotoscope the shape onto them to make them look better.

392
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.460
They're nowhere near as good as the original one.

393
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:54.359
It's got to be soon.

394
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:56.579
Yeah, yeah, the original shimmeries.

395
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.319
And the cone heads.

396
00:25:58.380 --> 00:25:59.819
We think the cone heads in the 1st scene.

397
00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:01.079
I love Redship.

398
00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:04.680
It works in some scenes and doesn't work in others, the original shimmeriness.

399
00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:06.420
You know, as a kid, it worked for me.

400
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.220
I was perfectly happy that as a child.

401
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:09.299
It's truly terrible.

402
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.380
And then when they arrive, Tom says disappointing, aren't they?

403
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:19.740
Like, actually, lampshades the fact that they're in the worst science fiction outfits.

404
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:20.339
But that's the point.

405
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:22.140
They're dressed as Dan Dare.

406
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:32.880
They've even got the little fin on their helmets that you see in the buck Rogers and the greatest Frank Hampson, science fiction, British science fiction of all time, which is the Dan Dare Eagle comic from 51 to...

407
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:34.319
Oh, so they're just guys.

408
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:38.279
No, but they're 50s British Empire SF.

409
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:42.839
Yeah, unfortunately, they've got, what is it, west country accents or Midlands accents?

410
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:46.680
Their voices are not very threatening, which is...

411
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:47.160
What you're saying?

412
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:48.180
Scots aren't threatening.

413
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.559
Not sure about that.

414
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:51.420
We've got Tom Kelly back again.

415
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:53.579
In the one story where he doesn't get stuck in a wall.

416
00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:58.259
But aside from that, you know, danger, danger.

417
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:59.579
There is danger here.

418
00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:06.839
Yeah, he's got awful, but it's just a very odd choice, possibly a puzzling choice.

419
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:07.740
We'll see.

420
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:13.680
But that being said, I don't mind their humanoid form with the uniforms.

421
00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:14.759
It is a bit silly.

422
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:15.839
It is a bit Dan dare.

423
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:16.500
But.

424
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:19.079
Actually, you know who they look like?

425
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:24.119
They look like the science force in Ultraman, the original Ultraman with the silly helmets of what have you.

426
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:29.279
We need a silver wetsuit with some tea strainers on the eyes, don't we?

427
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:29.940
Yeah, yes.

428
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:36.839
Again, I don't have too much of a problem with them looking crap because they're not the main threat of the story, which is the great double gambit.

429
00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:39.900
So can we talk about the end of part 4 then?

430
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:40.440
Yes, yes.

431
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:44.819
So part four. would be this superb fake out.

432
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.299
Okay?

433
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:50.700
Imagine a cliffhanger where we'd had a huge climax we'd fought and defeated the Vardens.

434
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:52.259
They were gone forever.

435
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:57.299
We were hugely excited, and then at the very end, the Santarin's turn up.

436
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:06.059
But what we get instead is canine faffing about, a bit of dialogue, and then we're told the Vardens are defeated.

437
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:09.119
And Leila kind of goes, have we defeated the Vardens?

438
00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:14.759
All we did was fight a few guards, and Tom says, yeah, you know, it can't always be like the relief of Mafeking.

439
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:19.859
And so it is the most dull and anticlimactic defeat of the bardens.

440
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.579
That is just achieved by standing around in a studio talking.

441
00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:27.839
And no action at all, nothing that involves the bargains.

442
00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:30.119
They're not tricked, you know, they're not outwitted.

443
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:32.700
They just kind of all go away.

444
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:38.460
So it's almost impossible to believe that part 4 would have been a satisfying ending to the story.

445
00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:48.059
But in my alternative universe ending version of part four, where something exciting dispatches the bargains, it would have been spectacular.

446
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:48.779
Yeah, yeah.

447
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:54.359
And it would have been a very smug ending, because the doctor would have gone, you see, I was right to treat you all like crap.

448
00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:58.500
But some people that the doctor doesn't treat like crap in this story.

449
00:28:58.619 --> 00:29:00.119
Of course, we haven't mentioned them yet.

450
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:01.380
The Outlanders.

451
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.500
Now, we're not sure if they're Shaboogans or not or Shaboo.

452
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:05.160
No, they're not.

453
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:05.640
They're not.

454
00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:08.099
But of course, one of them is Max Faulkner.

455
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.059
It's not Terry Walsh.

456
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.099
Of course, another one.

457
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:13.440
Our very own...

458
00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:14.099
That is correct.

459
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:15.000
Okay, Smith.

460
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:16.079
Then Gay Smith.

461
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:17.400
And you know what?

462
00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:26.819
When I was Vince manager for the Doctor Club of Australia, we approached her several times to be a convention guest, and we always got the most polite refusals.

463
00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:29.759
No, seriously.

464
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:32.099
She should be up for it.

465
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:37.619
But I still have one of her letters or rather one of the letters from a member of staff.

466
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.059
We should add for the overseas.

467
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:40.140
Yeah, yeah, there are a lot.

468
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:40.920
Yes, of course.

469
00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:43.980
Gay Waterhouse was, of course, an actress in this time.

470
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:45.420
And a model, I think.

471
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:53.700
Bumming around in London with her mates before she married Mr. Waterhouse, and she's now one of the wealthiest women in Australia and a horse race trainer.

472
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.319
Yes, trainer race person thing.

473
00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:56.519
That's correct.

474
00:29:56.579 --> 00:29:59.819
So for any of you out there interested in horse racing, it may not be in Australia for...

475
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:01.259
Don't be because it's horribly cruel.

476
00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:02.400
It is horribly cruel.

477
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:07.140
But if you've ever heard of the Melbourne Cup, that is Australia's big horse race every year.

478
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:07.980
It is horrible.

479
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:18.900
Gaywaterhouse sits in an enormous big acrylic martini glass, like Deedavonte's, and puts on one of Leela's leather red outfits and does horrible things to a horse.

480
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.319
They shoot them on the track under a green CSO base cloth.

481
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:33.240
But, um, her letter of refusal, which I still have somewhere, says something along the lines of, um, also very fondly remember my acting career and it was so much fun to work on Doctor Who with Tom Baker and Louise Jackson.

482
00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:45.779
My current career, working in horse racing, demands so much of my attention that I'm afraid that even if I were to commit, I may have to cancel at a late stage and I would not want to disappoint any of your attendees.

483
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.000
But she could pre-record something.

484
00:30:48.059 --> 00:30:49.619
Could you suggest that?

485
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.240
No, I didn't.

486
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:51.960
In costume.

487
00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:53.279
Yeah, yeah, we'll go over.

488
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.700
I think regardless of anything else she does, and certainly horse racing is very, very cruel.

489
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.839
That is a very nice way to treat something that obviously she has no interest in recreating.

490
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:01.619
I'm too rich.

491
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:05.940
Which is kind of how Diana Rigg reacts when you ask her along to event.

492
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:07.140
Well, at least she's obvious about it.

493
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:08.279
At least she's honest about it.

494
00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:12.539
I'm not hanging out with you ming mongs. she says in a quasi-northern accent.

495
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:17.339
I've got I've got a sandpaper in me face, whatever it is that diner rigs doing this week.

496
00:31:17.579 --> 00:31:20.759
Let's talk about her an invasion of time, though.

497
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:26.460
She is the poshest a dropout you've ever heard of because these people are dropout.

498
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:27.599
They literally drop the side.

499
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:28.680
They use the word.

500
00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:30.839
They're just kind of hippies, yeah.

501
00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:31.319
Yeah, yeah.

502
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:32.579
She's the poshest hippie ever.

503
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:33.420
What you gonna eat?

504
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:34.440
I've got smarties.

505
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.240
Actually, are smarties.

506
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:37.740
Yeah, Rodan Smarties.

507
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:39.720
Oh, we haven't talked about...

508
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:41.339
We have time lady people.

509
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:42.240
We do.

510
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:43.259
There's two ladies.

511
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:48.420
Time ladies, but we know she's actually just Anthony Ainley before it's regenerated.

512
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.059
She's fabulously posh.

513
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:58.740
She is like a young woman who has just, she's working in a shop, you know, just after she's graduated from her posh private school.

514
00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:00.240
Like a member of your staff, really.

515
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:08.039
But she is specifically, and this is both in the script and according to Graham Williams, she's specifically not a timelord.

516
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:08.880
What?

517
00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:11.400
No, but hear me out because...

518
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:12.720
Collective groom, listener, what?

519
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:19.619
And Graham Williams and Anthony Reed both had copies of the deadly assassin for reference next to them when they were writing their scripts.

520
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:22.740
They looked at the deadly assassin and noticed that there were no women.

521
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:26.220
Because it's a Hinchcliffe story by Rob Holmes.

522
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:28.619
But they thought, you know what?

523
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:33.359
This plays into our theme of we want to explore the people on this planet who are not time lords.

524
00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:34.980
And obviously this is sexist.

525
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:42.900
So it's like, let's highlight that sex with them, and that's why Rodan, when we 1st meet her, says, that barrier's there to keep me apart from me from the time lords from everyone.

526
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.819
So they're acknowledging in the script, this gender, imbalance, and inequality.

527
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.440
Now, of course, you know, it's 1970s Doctor Who, so they don't really hammer at home.

528
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:58.200
But Rodin does identify that she is not on everyone else's level, and then what does she do?

529
00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:00.599
She builds the gun that kills the invaders.

530
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:03.539
She rewives the Tartars better than the doctor can.

531
00:33:03.660 --> 00:33:05.519
Yeah, and that's a gorgeous scene, isn't it?

532
00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:06.779
It's a screwdriver.

533
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:08.819
And she's so good at it.

534
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.160
I was hoping as a child.

535
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.380
I thought that she was going to be the next companion.

536
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.099
And is there anything in the show notes that this was the Ramana?

537
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:18.900
She's clearly a dry run for a moment.

538
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.539
Yeah, yeah, but more than...

539
00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:26.279
I think they did consider her before going for a completely new character.

540
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.700
Certainly, she's definitely the dry run for Romana.

541
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:37.680
I have heard some criticism of her performance that she's sort of too stoical at times, but no, I think she's got a fine line in irony.

542
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:46.500
And when she gets outside the city, well, she sort of has her mini breakdown, which also, I think, is very in character, because until then, she's getting more and more stressed with the idea of having to lead the city.

543
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:51.720
She's very, very brave, but at that point, she is just at the end of her tether, and she's been running.

544
00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:54.119
She's, you know, she's a girl friend.

545
00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:55.319
We don't have to run from anything.

546
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:56.880
No one will dare invade us.

547
00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:58.079
In half an hour.

548
00:33:58.259 --> 00:33:59.279
I have a century, it's myself.

549
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:01.140
She's half an hour.

550
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.339
Her whole world's falling apart.

551
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.900
Yeah, she certainly does more acting in that scene than Mary does for the entire following year.

552
00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:10.079
Fighting words, Mr. I reckon.

553
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:11.400
I reckon that's totally fair.

554
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:18.719
I'm very glad we have both Hillary, who is actually very beautiful despite what her hair and costume is doing for her and we have Mary as well.

555
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:19.860
I'm glad that we have both of them.

556
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:20.400
I love it.

557
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:20.820
I agree.

558
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:25.199
Yeah, and she's not named after a Godzilla monster for no reason, I'm sure.

559
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.320
Yeah, I always thought that was weird.

560
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:36.539
Even the same colour, Rhodano Radon, in the original Japanese, is always this scarlet heliotrope colour.

561
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:41.820
At the end of episode four, of course, we have mentioned that the Santarians are coming in and Todd has a few words, you'd like to say about them.

562
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:45.599
Well, here we are at the invasion of time. you know what?

563
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:47.219
This is my gala frame.

564
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:50.039
My Castellan, my Barusa, my Andred.

565
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.340
The last time I watched this, out of context, I gave it zero out of 10.

566
00:34:53.579 --> 00:35:02.699
Now, I actually think there are four and a half pretty decent episodes, and it actually has quite an entertaining story, and I actually love most of the performances.

567
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:06.059
Bringing in this on Tarans at the end is a good way to elevate things.

568
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:15.960
Although I don't think it's successful in terms of their performances, I do find some of it quite funny, but the last episode and a half does sort of collapse in upon itself.

569
00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:17.519
Does that ruin the entire story?

570
00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:24.239
I mean, I certainly think this is no worse than some of the wonderful Barriolettes Robert Sloman finales back in the Pertuy era.

571
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:27.719
The president of the Supreme Council is asked to see me.

572
00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:31.260
He's told me to dress in white and come up with some sort of alias.

573
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:32.460
Perhaps Fred will do.

574
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.719
Derek Devin's come in for a lot of criticism as well.

575
00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:41.280
I actually really quite like his portrayal, 'cause, as Todd says, the Santarans here are funny.

576
00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:46.800
And this son Toran's quite funny, because the voice makes him very stupid.

577
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:48.960
And, you know, it...

578
00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.119
Just say, working class London is...

579
00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:57.780
Well, the thing is, it's not really, because you've got the working class outlanders as well, who are very resourceful and help the doctor and what happened.

580
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.980
But have posh accent.

581
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.960
But have, well, Max Faulkner.

582
00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:03.360
Yeah, I'm not sure he really has posh accents.

583
00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:09.599
I quite like the Santarans in this because they're back to being brute force warriors again.

584
00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:11.579
You know, they're not planners and they're not strategists.

585
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:16.920
They're not pole vultures either. if jumping over a bit of poolside furniture is anything to go by.

586
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:18.420
You want to know who was playing that?

587
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.219
George Santaran, Stewart, Fowl.

588
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.019
Yeah. drink the name.

589
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.679
So this is the 1st time we've ever had more than one Santara.

590
00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:26.699
Yeah, that's true.

591
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.360
Well, more than once on Tara and play by, would play by more than one actor.

592
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:32.280
Yeah, yeah, stand up on the screen.

593
00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:35.699
Kevin Lindsay, of course, was sadly no longer with us at this point.

594
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:43.320
Robert Holmes, despite not writing the script, had a big hand in it because he was he was offered to write the script 1st and he said, no, look, I just quit.

595
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.960
I really want to move away, but you can use any of my creations.

596
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:47.280
You can use Barusa.

597
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:52.500
You can use, um, and they didn't end up, but you, you know, you can use spandrel, you can use Engen.

598
00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:54.000
What happened to Spanish?

599
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:55.260
I know, I miss...

600
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:55.920
Oh, you know what?

601
00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:57.420
I think it was just a matter of actor availability.

602
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:00.780
Nothing's going to hold the windows up without a sponge.

603
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.559
That's a very funny building reference if any of you get that one.

604
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:05.940
Gosh, that was terrific.

605
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:06.539
Come on.

606
00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:10.619
An architectural conference would be rolling in the aisle.

607
00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:12.480
Yeah, that probably would just why I never go to them.

608
00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:16.260
But yeah, also he gave permission for the Santarans to be used.

609
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:19.440
And I think they're written very, very finely here.

610
00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:27.480
They're written better here than Robert Holmes himself will write them later in the 2 doctors, where he tries to put in jokes about the loneliness of command.

611
00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:31.320
But here, I think you really capture the fact that Santarans are a bit thick.

612
00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:37.980
Oh, well, I mean, it's that thing where people say, oh, you know, the Santarans have been ruined forever because Strax is such a comedy character.

613
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:38.699
Do you know what I mean?

614
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.159
But we don't need this on Torrance. are terrible.

615
00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:43.079
Lynx is a great character.

616
00:37:43.139 --> 00:37:49.199
I think Styre is an okay character, but I can't think of a single time apart from that where they've really worked.

617
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:50.579
At all.

618
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:51.539
Do you know what I mean?

619
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:52.260
So we don't need them.

620
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:58.619
Like they've got this sort of, they're in the pantheon of Doctor Who as the 5th most, you know, loved returning monster.

621
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.860
I think that's down to Kevin Lindsay's performances.

622
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.260
I just don't think there's any need for them, you know?

623
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:08.219
It's actually, it's actually down to um, to Doc Cotton.

624
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.699
It's actually down to June Brown. the reason they're so good.

625
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.519
It's everyone remembers Alan Roe and June Brown.

626
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:18.719
I like Chrissy and Sarah Jane Adventures getting one in the probing vent with her high heels.

627
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:19.860
I think that's it.

628
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:24.780
And the probic bent has been redesigned here so that it can snugly accommodate Leila's nine.

629
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:26.639
Yes, that's what it was all full of them.

630
00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:30.659
I miss Leila.

631
00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:32.039
Yeah, I miss her already.

632
00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:34.559
We're not even at, you know, we're not even at the point.

633
00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:37.380
Well, we talked about where she leaves, but we're not properly there yet.

634
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.440
No, I have no problems with the Santarans in this story.

635
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:44.579
This is one I very fondly remember as a child watching it on tape.

636
00:38:44.579 --> 00:39:15.239
And it was the omnibus version from the mid 80s, and it had some kind of Eastern European stop motion animation thing on the tape before and about a circus with no dialogue, so I had no idea what's going on. slightly nightmarish, and then that faded into the documentary. funny you say that, because this is not, as we've been talking about Shakespeare and I, Claudius, and it's definitely informed by the success of BBC, like Claudius, the Robert Groves series, just before it, certainly with the scenes with, did I mention John Arnott and Tom Baker?

637
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:17.639
But it's actually more Soviet brusher?

638
00:39:17.699 --> 00:39:22.619
It's more Soviet era anyway, even with the names of the Constructive Gallifry.

639
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:24.300
It's very much Cold War.

640
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.099
Can we talk about the resolution of this story?

641
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:31.920
But what, but they've found the K1 robots gone and suddenly it's the most destructive weapon in the universe?

642
00:39:32.099 --> 00:39:33.059
It's got really terrible.

643
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:34.980
It's making no sense to me.

644
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.159
We've had DMac guns many times in Doctor.

645
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.860
This one would enable him to take over the galaxy.

646
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.480
That's in the dialogue.

647
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:46.019
And how do we resolve this terrible problem of Gallifre being invaded?

648
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:47.699
We make a big gun and shoot someone.

649
00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:49.139
I mean, it's terrible.

650
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:52.019
Well, yeah, you know, it is pretty terrible.

651
00:39:52.079 --> 00:40:03.000
But also, it seems that what it does is, whoever wields it, whoever actually uses it to destroy, then doesn't remember the destructive act, hello the moment.

652
00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:04.079
Hmm.

653
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:07.320
Yeah, it's galifrian technology.

654
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:10.199
And as Barusa says at the end, it's the wisdom of wrestle.

655
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:11.159
And so I was like, you know what?

656
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:12.960
Yes, you can use it to take a life.

657
00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:16.199
Yes, you can use it to be a destroyer, but you won't be able to use it forever.

658
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:22.619
So you'd be hard pressed to take over the galaxy if the 1st time you shot someone, you forgot where you were and what had been going on.

659
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:24.420
Is that why it's played by Billy Piper?

660
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:29.099
Because the all the previous career is just forgotten as soon as you move on.

661
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:29.519
Yeah.

662
00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:39.179
But just to match things up a bit, we get Derek Deadman a store, and he suddenly whips out a grenade that will destroy what the entire galaxy or something.

663
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.039
Well, are you standing over the eye of harmony?

664
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:43.079
Oh, maybe that's it.

665
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:44.159
Yeah, yeah.

666
00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:46.500
But it could blow up the whole galaxy.

667
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:53.099
And so the stakes are suddenly massively increased for no reason and with no effort at all.

668
00:40:53.159 --> 00:41:00.059
We just get told that we could take over the universe with this gun or we could blow up the galaxy with this small bomb.

669
00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:05.099
You know, and it's attempt to update. 330 in the morning and they've had a lot of coffee.

670
00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:05.760
Clearly.

671
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:16.019
I can just about believe it, though, because they've made a lot of fuss about the key of wrestling and how important it is, how much Barusa doesn't want to give it up, and you know, you would entrust the key to an alien.

672
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.900
I mean, you should shoot someone with just a gun gun.

673
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.960
You don't need a D-Mat gun that's pan on barbeque.

674
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:22.739
It shouldn't have been a gun.

675
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:25.199
It's just, I think it's it doesn't work.

676
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:29.280
So both the episode 4 and episode 6 climaxes are poor.

677
00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:32.219
Which should have been Billy Piper, shouldn't it?

678
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:33.239
Instead of a gardener.

679
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:34.500
She would have been, what, one?

680
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.000
No, not a foetus.

681
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:40.920
Do you know what I actually did also think, again, as a boy, because, and Nathan had mentioned before.

682
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:43.739
Well, this is one of the ones that was shown pretty much continuously.

683
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:48.900
And even during the Davidson era in the 80s, This was one of the ones you'd get to see as fillers in between.

684
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.400
Doctor Who was almost year round.

685
00:41:50.460 --> 00:42:04.920
I thought at the time, why are you building a gun when it should be the most precious thing that the doctor could lose or the most precious thing that the person themselves, if you're going to, which again presages the moment.

686
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:07.800
But no, as a child, I thought, it should have been Leila.

687
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:10.500
Leila is the weapon.

688
00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:12.360
And now I'm thinking maybe Leila is a child.

689
00:42:12.420 --> 00:42:19.260
But no, as a boy, I thought, what it gives you is that it actually turns the thing you most, but of course, for Tom, it would have been his own ego.

690
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:21.179
Or a talking cabbage.

691
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:22.739
Yeah, talking cabbage.

692
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:34.739
But how interesting if the weapon of choice would have to have been, and to use it would have been, in this case, it would have been Leela and integrating kind of in the way we might be seeing with Armageddon Factor, because I know that's going to go off well.

693
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:39.659
The idea of the, of the, of that which you most love is actually the weapon you must use to.

694
00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:50.039
And instead of just destroying the Sontarin, what I assumed at the time, we're 1st seeing it, is that it actually completely obliterates that whole period of time that's just come before it.

695
00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:54.239
So they never actually did invade, they never had a presence on gallifry.

696
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:58.260
The gun actually makes a bubble of time and removes it from the continuum.

697
00:42:58.320 --> 00:42:59.639
Yeah, it's a bit weird.

698
00:42:59.699 --> 00:43:01.679
It's just the doctor who doesn't remember.

699
00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:04.860
I mean, I know I praised that a couple of minutes ago and I still praised that.

700
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:07.920
But yeah, it would have been a lot more interesting if just everyone had forgotten.

701
00:43:08.219 --> 00:43:17.579
But I thought that was the price of using the weapon as well, is that you lose your love, that whom you most love, and you also forget you ever knew him or her.

702
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.739
I really would have.

703
00:43:19.739 --> 00:43:21.659
Did you think anything like that as a boy when you were older?

704
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.340
No, it's just watching it this time.

705
00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:28.739
I just thought it was really pedestrian and like those suggestions that you come up with a bit more poetic and interesting.

706
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.340
There's something that the show doesn't really do that much during the period.

707
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:36.239
But the solutions that they came up with.

708
00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:41.820
You know, there's that thing in episode 5 where Calum is pulling some leavers and we're told we're in danger.

709
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.380
You know, they are very good.

710
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:50.460
They are very good at creating stakes visually or organically within the plot.

711
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:55.079
We just have to be told that we're in danger or told that we've defeated Vardens.

712
00:43:55.139 --> 00:44:04.980
That becomes a meta in itself that Douglas Adams really exploits and that everyone now said, well, you know, writers now see it as what a terrific thing that they did so cleverly and wittily, making something very ordinary.

713
00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:05.880
It's an ashtray.

714
00:44:05.940 --> 00:44:07.260
No, it's not. the key to the universe.

715
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:14.099
Yeah, yeah, but they're not, well, that's like the key, the restaurant's key in the death drawer. bloody drawing. next to the desk.

716
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.679
No one has ever found it in the history of the timeline.

717
00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:17.760
It's my hair.

718
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:20.340
No, I think that's so terrible.

719
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:21.000
Tremendous.

720
00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:27.420
But what they're not doing is lampshading the kind of the, the, there must be a word for this trope.

721
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:31.559
It's like danger that you get told about that you don't see.

722
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:33.360
Tell don't show.

723
00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:34.199
Yeah, yeah.

724
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:40.980
It goes back to Lecant's theory mentioning tropes, again, of the dissonance of the ostensible threat before it actually occurs.

725
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:43.320
So you've got the cadaver in the room before the death.

726
00:44:43.380 --> 00:44:45.119
No, but I don't think we ever get the death.

727
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:51.059
I want to call it word peril where you're just told we're in peril and everyone goes, oh, goodness, that's terrible.

728
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.780
It's standabout on the Faccardi rug and the cog room set and all look worried together.

729
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:55.800
It's a terrible scene.

730
00:44:55.860 --> 00:44:58.619
I'll come up with something better the next time it occurs.

731
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:00.420
I did what would that be in Latin?

732
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.219
No, nothing very good.

733
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:03.360
You know what I mean?

734
00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:05.940
That's gorgeous.

735
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.380
I'd buy that if it was a wine.

736
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.300
That's very Scottish.

737
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:14.460
I once saw a stage show, which was a drawing room mystery.

738
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:18.179
And at one point, someone has to get killed on the veranda.

739
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:24.000
So all the characters run out and you hear the gunshot and people say, oh, no, he's been shot.

740
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:25.320
And I'm like, really?

741
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.480
You're doing this off stage?

742
00:45:27.539 --> 00:45:29.699
Oh, you know, it's meant to build suspense.

743
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.260
It was like, no, they carry the body on straight away.

744
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:32.340
It's like, what's the point?

745
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:33.780
There's not even any blood on the body.

746
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:34.440
I don't understand.

747
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:35.880
So yeah, word peril is very annoying.

748
00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:38.340
Can I talk about some of the things I like about the story?

749
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:39.539
Yeah, I do.

750
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:40.139
I do like it.

751
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:42.420
Yeah, we do. we do, don't we?

752
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:43.260
Yeah, generally.

753
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:47.579
I think we've talked about things we like in the 1st 2 episodes and the 2nd 2 episodes.

754
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:53.280
And really in that last 2 episodes, I love the travelog around the TARDIS.

755
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.179
I love using industrial spaces.

756
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:57.900
Did you at the time?

757
00:45:57.960 --> 00:45:59.159
Did you as a lad?

758
00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:01.199
Yeah, yeah, I really did.

759
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:08.699
It's something Rod picked up on when we watched it through, again, in that, yes, if the TARDIS can be anything.

760
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.219
Why can't this area look like an industrial swimming pool?

761
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.840
Why can't that area look like a hospital?

762
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:14.519
And I love the fact...

763
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:15.420
Because it's depressing?

764
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:16.920
I don't find it.

765
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:18.480
Is the TARDIS in a fug this season?

766
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:20.219
Is it just in a bad mood?

767
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:24.480
I think there's a lot of just, again, playing out the running time.

768
00:46:24.539 --> 00:46:25.380
Do you know what I mean?

769
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.900
There is that. it's done so stylishly.

770
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:28.500
That's the thing.

771
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.780
You know, you get that conversation about deja vu.

772
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:31.980
David, David.

773
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:32.579
Same thing again.

774
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:36.300
I know the starter's like the back of my hand, Doctor. front of your eyes.

775
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:38.340
That's a very Tom and Louise thing, yeah.

776
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:44.340
Well, it is something that they eventually becomes the kind of default mode for the Williams era.

777
00:46:44.579 --> 00:46:51.420
We can't afford to not have a lot of time just walking around these brick corridors, so we'll at least be fun about it.

778
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:57.900
I just wish they'd gone to Oxford and film somewhere around actually in some sandstone corridors in September.

779
00:46:57.960 --> 00:46:59.219
I just, it just doesn't feel tart.

780
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.760
It is an old mental hospital and it feels as miserable as that really was.

781
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.960
But I don't find it miserable, but I do find it unsettling.

782
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:15.420
And they've already commented that, you know, Kelner's been interfering with the interior dimensions and the doctor has to take something offline.

783
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:22.019
So, you know, even though it's very interesting, you do kind of go, oh, I see.

784
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:26.400
I think something's wrong with the TARDIS and you get that feeling of wrongness.

785
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:34.860
So, yeah, it's taking the word peril of, we'll be thrown into a black star and giving us a subtle visual effect on it.

786
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.619
And, you know, yeah, the doctor can't find his way around.

787
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:41.280
Is that because the doctor's being absent-minded or is that because there's something wrong with the TARDIS?

788
00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:45.059
And then you get that crappy art gallery with the Venus de Milo with the...

789
00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:45.960
We know they're the real ones.

790
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:46.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

791
00:47:46.980 --> 00:47:49.860
With the with the plaster join down the side.

792
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:53.460
But yeah, is the button to activate the Venus to Milo?

793
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.239
Is it in her backside?

794
00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:54.840
I think it is.

795
00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:57.780
It's kind of on her flank.

796
00:47:57.780 --> 00:47:59.639
In Jabalite.

797
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:00.780
In Jabalite. right.

798
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.679
She was actually the excellent city in previous life.

799
00:48:04.739 --> 00:48:06.300
She's just been transposed.

800
00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:07.920
There is life after death and doctor.

801
00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:14.699
And you know, with all the stairs and whatnot, you actually get a feeling of going up and down and in different dimensions as well.

802
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:16.619
Could it have been achieved better?

803
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:17.340
Yes.

804
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:18.659
Visually, I think so.

805
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:20.219
Is it achieved very well?

806
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:21.420
Yes, I think so.

807
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:30.480
And I think it marries very well then with admittedly the padding in the dialogue, but it's padding performed by actors you're really enjoying.

808
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:41.579
The highlight of it is Barusa, having a cocktail with a crazy straw, and reading the report that the Titanic sunk, and the doctor looking really, really guilty.

809
00:48:41.699 --> 00:48:43.739
It had nothing to do with that.

810
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.260
I love the bathroom.

811
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:47.579
I think it's spectacular.

812
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:54.000
It certainly puts the swimming pool in the sky in Paradise Towers in proper perspective.

813
00:48:54.059 --> 00:48:55.079
It's lovely.

814
00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:57.780
And the other thing that really gets me about it.

815
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:02.340
I think we may have watched Invasion in Time around the time that Journey to the centre of the Tartars went out.

816
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:03.659
And it's like, you know what?

817
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:15.119
In 1977, we can have this really fun, okay, not perfect trip around the Tartars, achieved by going to these disused buildings and making it look a bit rundown, making it look lived in.

818
00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:19.739
In journey to the centre of the Tatus, we get a bunch of corridors that look the same in a few books on a shelf.

819
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:24.960
It looks very Star Trek next gen and the budget difficult years of next gen too.

820
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:27.059
Yeah, no, the journey to the centre of time.

821
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:30.000
It's journey to centre the TARDIS is, again.

822
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:31.920
I mean, that's the thing.

823
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.940
This story has great acting, fun dialogue.

824
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:40.079
A plot that works, which we haven't always had this year.

825
00:49:40.139 --> 00:49:41.280
Surprisingly.

826
00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:42.360
Does it?

827
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:45.539
Or is it just that we love the bits and pieces and forgive the plot overall?

828
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:52.679
Well, the thing is, even when we've had criticisms of the plot, like, it has to end with a gun, it's still like, that is a logical conclusion.

829
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:54.059
It's just a bit disappointing.

830
00:49:54.119 --> 00:50:03.300
It's not like underworld where we're like, what are these gold rod things and why should we care and why are you a giant gold penis and...

831
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:06.599
Yeah, why are those guys?

832
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:11.699
I mean, yeah, is this a Sean Connery bondfinger.com film gone wrong?

833
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:12.239
I don't know.

834
00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:15.000
It's got interesting visuals.

835
00:50:15.059 --> 00:50:21.000
It's got a plot that whips along at a fair pace because you're constantly changing up the threat.

836
00:50:21.059 --> 00:50:30.599
And for better or for worse, it's got a memorable ending with a companion departure scene, which, even if it's not written very well, is performed very well.

837
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:34.920
And that bit at the end when Leila asks canine, will he be lonely?

838
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:39.539
insufficient data mistress, and they both bow their heads simultaneously.

839
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:42.719
That could have been mawkish, but instead it's very sweet.

840
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:44.460
There's a lot going for this story.

841
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.039
You know, it's not a perfect season ender.

842
00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:48.480
It's not Planet of the Spiders.

843
00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:49.980
It's not the Green Death, certainly.

844
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:53.460
But I think it's better than the Damons and the Time Monster.

845
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.480
It gives me as much as it takes away.

846
00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:09.239
So in the end, I'm left with a slight surfeit of joy, which is that which are the principal players, as much as I think that Chris Tranchill did his best.

847
00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:10.380
He doesn't really win me.

848
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:14.639
Isn't he exactly the same person who turns up in Shada, also playing cruise, or does it just feel as if?

849
00:51:15.059 --> 00:51:16.139
Daniel Hill.

850
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:17.159
Yeah, it's just bookending.

851
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.280
It's the same blandness in beige corduroy. has been in it before.

852
00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:24.960
Yes, he was in the faceless ones where he was possibly admired by Joe Orton.

853
00:51:25.019 --> 00:51:26.400
Ah...

854
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:31.079
Weren't we all...

855
00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:31.860
Just.

856
00:51:32.219 --> 00:51:34.980
So Jenny Laird awards.

857
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:36.059
I might go first.

858
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.239
Uh, and my journey later waters for Dick Coles.

859
00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:43.980
I don't know who that is Dick Coles was the designer of underworld.

860
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:48.360
And my question for him, as I shouted last week, why brown?

861
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:51.000
Why is everything brown?

862
00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:53.699
Was there a sale on brown paint or something, Dick?

863
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:58.559
Well, they did call it Mission Brown in the 70s and yes, everything was dark brown in the 70s. was there.

864
00:51:58.619 --> 00:52:00.900
Yeah, the thing is, this story isn't in the 70s.

865
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:03.780
It was also the orange, and it was also a lime green.

866
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.000
We didn't get any of those other accent notes, did we?

867
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:06.659
Exactly.

868
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:08.219
Lime green caves.

869
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:08.760
There you go.

870
00:52:08.820 --> 00:52:10.260
Nathan, the ice cream.

871
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:10.679
Okay.

872
00:52:10.739 --> 00:52:14.699
You know, I want to shrink away from being too obvious, but I'm not going to.

873
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:22.440
I don't think this is a good season, and I think I said before that it's probably the worst season of the 1970s.

874
00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:31.860
Things start to go really wrong on the design front and that starts with invisible enemy, but, you know, is really, really obvious in underworld.

875
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:49.079
But I do think that probably the most puzzling creative choice is choosing to give a paycheque to Bob Baker and Dave Martin, who wrote two good per twee stories, and since then have been just turning in absolute rubbish.

876
00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:56.159
And I can't think of a single good thing to say about any of their stories for Tom Baker.

877
00:52:56.219 --> 00:52:57.059
They're terrible.

878
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:58.500
Get rid of them.

879
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:02.820
It's interesting to hear you talk about design like that.

880
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:14.340
I thought I was the only one that really, you know, took it as my first point of contact with a story, but it is interesting to hear you say that because it's obviously it is that important. certainly in this season.

881
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:25.679
I don't think story wise, it's that bad, and I think Louise does a terrific job as a companion and with Tom, and even the conflict between Dr. and Leila, which is largely driven by, as we've said, by Tom.

882
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:35.400
Didn't really notice so much as a child watching this, but I certainly didn't feel great love for it in the way that I did between Sarah Jane and the doctor.

883
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:39.539
So it does have an effect on the viewer watching it and the child viewer watching it.

884
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.960
Sarah and the doctor aren't particularly affectionate towards each other, either.

885
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:55.679
But there's a warmth between the 2 actors, especially when you're thinking an Android invasion when they're running about on the base. and there's just that little moment where they just touches her on the shoulder or is that that little closeness of contact.

886
00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:57.119
There's a rapport.

887
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.619
Yes, it's not a table wine.

888
00:53:58.739 --> 00:53:59.579
It's a rapport.

889
00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:02.159
And it's lovely.

890
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:03.599
And I just don't get that this time.

891
00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:04.619
And you do pick up on that.

892
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:10.800
Yeah, I think my puzzling creative choice, though, in the end, isn't actually design based.

893
00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:18.599
I've done this to do this kind of thing with, with, you know, running projects and time and just having nothing left and having to wing it.

894
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:30.360
And the results that go out, there's something about 11th hour, which can produce moments of great genius, such as the barusa doctor dialogue scenes, innovasion of time.

895
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:33.539
On the whole, does it leave a satisfying?

896
00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:39.960
I don't know that the eggs quite were beaten well enough and I don't think it's quite risen to purloin MacArthur Park.

897
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:42.659
And it doesn't quite get there.

898
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:45.420
My person and creative choice actually has to go back to Hinchcliffe.

899
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:51.300
I actually don't think it's Williamsport because we get to see later on what Williams does when he gets a whole season to himself.

900
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:56.460
And even though there may be curious choices, which we'll hear about amongst the 3 of you for season 16.

901
00:54:56.639 --> 00:55:06.539
I do think it comes back to Hinchcliffe just taking so much of the budget that they were really left, and it's not really William's fault he didn't have enough time to get this together.

902
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:08.039
So maybe the BBC as well.

903
00:55:08.099 --> 00:55:09.360
So yeah, my choice is.

904
00:55:09.420 --> 00:55:12.179
Inchcliff, you did a lovely job, but look what you left for your successor.

905
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:15.420
There's a couple of things I'm just going to mention briefly.

906
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:21.659
There is big finishes, Dr. and Leila Audio Adventures, which are wonderful.

907
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:23.219
Are they in the same studio?

908
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.340
Yes, yeah, they work together. they work together great now.

909
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:28.139
Yeah, it's beautiful.

910
00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:31.440
Louise Jensen has said, look, you know, we've discussed everything that happened back then.

911
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:33.960
I told Tom he was a Pratt and he's wearing it.

912
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:35.340
Yeah, pretty much he.

913
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:36.659
Yeah, is.

914
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:43.739
One I'm going to single out in particular because it's quite interesting, given regards to what you just said, Richard.

915
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:48.780
In the 4th Dr. Lost Stories box set, there is the foe from the future.

916
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:58.559
Yes, I just listened to this one too, which, of course, was meant to be Talons of Wing Chang. it's Robert Banks Stewart original script adapted by, I think, John Dorney.

917
00:55:58.619 --> 00:56:10.980
And there is also a story called The Valley of Fear by Philip Hinchcliffe, which was in consideration for either the Sunmakers or Underworld slot, and that's been adapted by Jonathan Morris.

918
00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:20.940
But what Jonathan Morris has tried to do in that script is write it in such a way that it's a Philip Hinchcliffe idea as produced by Graham Williams.

919
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:27.360
But my actual pick, you know, I was just mentioning those.

920
00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:34.260
My actual pick is a new series of novels called Lethbridge Stewart.

921
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:54.659
These are spearheaded by Andy Frankermelon, who is the author of the Doctor Who, the Legacy series, and also the author of the Seeker series, and one of the creators and editors of the Space 1889 series, which is a steampunk sci-fi series.

922
00:56:54.719 --> 00:57:07.679
This is a series of 4 novels, which are in the process of being released, and they are set for Lethbridge Stewart between the web of fear and the invasion.

923
00:57:08.099 --> 00:57:11.519
So it's about the formation of the unit and what have you.

924
00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:15.179
So there is The Forgotten Sun by Andy Frankomallan.

925
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:19.739
There is the schizoid Earth by David A. McKinty, which...

926
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.239
I liked his, I liked his virgin.

927
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:22.440
New adventures. yeah Yeah.

928
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:27.179
There is, and this is the reason I mentioning it for season 17, Beast of Fang Rock.

929
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:29.760
Oh, no.

930
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:32.940
By Andy Franko Allen and Terence Dix.

931
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:33.900
Wow.

932
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:39.960
And legend says that the Beast of Fang Rock will return.

933
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:42.719
And Travers is out to discover the truth.

934
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:47.940
And there is a final novel in the series called Mutually Assured Domination by Nick Walters.

935
00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:51.179
We're back to Andrew and Leila, aren't we?

936
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:52.320
Yep that's right.

937
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:58.500
You can buy each of those novels online and we will include a link for those.

938
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:00.659
You can buy them individually or in a bundle.

939
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:01.739
Cool.

940
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:02.940
That's excellent.

941
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:07.500
Well, I've scored the bleeding obvious taro card, Miss Taro.

942
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:10.440
Again, I've already prefaced it.

943
00:58:10.500 --> 00:58:11.760
It's thank you, Gary Russell.

944
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:15.840
I really, really like the big finish Gallifry series.

945
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:19.559
And I know we keep going back to Big Finish and there's a whole lot of other things going on.

946
00:58:19.619 --> 00:58:22.980
So thank you, Brendan, for mentioning those because there's things we probably don't discover.

947
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.079
I really didn't want to listen to them.

948
00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:35.159
I just happened to have them and I bought them and downloaded them, you know, and all the rest of it and thought, oh, you know, I'm as much like Nathan as Gallifree was a one idea thing that didn't really work in the original series, except in a few moments.

949
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:36.360
But no, it really does.

950
00:58:36.420 --> 00:58:48.719
And it works because it's got fantastic performers being really well written for by clever people, whom, you know, we're lucky enough, some of them, that we've met and some of them are our friends, and we're fortunate being this age and having grown up with this stuff.

951
00:58:48.780 --> 00:58:54.420
But if you're a new listener or you haven't had the, you know, the luck of being able to go to conventions and meet these guys.

952
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:57.480
But Gary does a beautiful job on it as editor.

953
00:58:57.539 --> 00:59:02.639
Linda Bellingham is terrific as the inquisitor and she's just awful and venal and fantastic.

954
00:59:02.699 --> 00:59:04.380
And Louise, is in them.

955
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.840
Lala is superb as Romana.

956
00:59:06.900 --> 00:59:22.679
And of course, I won't spoil how, but they have Mary Tam is also returns, but we were lucky enough to get her, and there's also a recasting of Romana that comes up, and I won't say anymore if you haven't heard it, but it's, they really are good fun, and they're darkly done.

957
00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:25.380
They do feel very much in the spirit of Chris Boucher.

958
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:26.880
They also feel quite period.

959
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:32.699
There's lots of it that's kind of BBC Shakespeare, I Claudius Blake 7 era writing.

960
00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:34.800
Would you agree, Brendan, if you've listened to it.

961
00:59:34.860 --> 00:59:36.480
Oh, yeah, I think they're absolutely wonderful.

962
00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:39.780
It's a little bit Doctor Who, but it's also a little bit Babylon 5.

963
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:41.519
Yeah, bad B5.

964
00:59:41.699 --> 00:59:41.940
Thank you.

965
00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:43.679
It's very JMS, isn't it?

966
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:45.119
Really, in his style of writing.

967
00:59:45.179 --> 00:59:46.320
Huge arcing.

968
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:49.320
A little bit west wing in terms of the political intrigue.

969
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:52.739
Green wing, yes, a little bit green wing, if you've ever watched that, yes.

970
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.960
That would also be my pick of the week.

971
00:59:55.019 --> 00:59:57.780
That's got Michelle Gomez, Boys and Girls, as...

972
00:59:57.840 --> 00:59:59.760
Playing really the same part, yeah.

973
00:59:59.820 --> 01:00:01.800
Have you seen Greenwing?

974
01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:04.619
No, I have a friend who keeps telling me, friendly.

975
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:05.340
We put a link on.

976
01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:06.179
Yeah, we can.

977
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:07.260
Fred of the podcast.

978
01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:09.840
James Farrow keeps telling me to watch Green Wing.

979
01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:15.599
I've seen Michelle Gomez quite recently playing Martin Thatcher in Psycho Bitches.

980
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:17.760
Is he available?

981
01:00:17.820 --> 01:00:19.440
It's very hard to get.

982
01:00:19.500 --> 01:00:20.400
I only seen it with Jones.

983
01:00:20.460 --> 01:00:20.880
Yeah, yeah.

984
01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:22.619
Yeah, it's it is really good.

985
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.019
And Michelle Gomez is in it a fair amount.

986
01:00:25.019 --> 01:00:26.340
Just playing really herself.

987
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:28.440
Well, I've only ever seen her playing the same part.

988
01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:32.039
You saw the photo of her with the 2 action figures on her shoulders.

989
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:34.079
She's really cool.

990
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:39.659
I'm a huge fan I have a pick of the week, but it's really unspectacular compared to yours.

991
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:44.340
I've been walking in the morning and listening to Doctor Who novelisations.

992
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:45.900
I recommended this as a part...

993
01:00:46.019 --> 01:00:47.400
This great cottage in the park.

994
01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:49.619
No, that's not what I'm going to recommend.

995
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.019
So it's like, no, it's asking to this.

996
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:53.280
Oh, okay.

997
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:59.579
I'm going to recommend a novel that I never read when I was a kid, a novelisation that I never had.

998
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:01.079
I think it was released reasonably late.

999
01:01:01.139 --> 01:01:11.099
It's the rescue by Ian Martha, who it's his last novelisation and it's dedicated to him and it's read by Maureen O'Brien.

1000
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:16.380
And we said at the time that the rescue was really just a great vehicle to introduce Maureen O'Brien as an actor.

1001
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:20.880
It was the 1st time we ever had a new companion since the series began.

1002
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:28.199
And so it was a little story crafted by David Whittaker to give her, you know, a chance to really show her Chops as an actor.

1003
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.079
And Maureen hasn't lost it at all.

1004
01:01:31.139 --> 01:01:32.639
It's a wonderful reading.

1005
01:01:32.699 --> 01:01:34.019
She does a great Barbara.

1006
01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:35.639
She does a great Vicky.

1007
01:01:35.699 --> 01:01:41.159
It's Ian Marta, so the pros is more sort of interesting and sophisticated than Terrence Dix.

1008
01:01:41.219 --> 01:01:44.820
And the whole thing was just really, really great fun.

1009
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:46.739
I really enjoyed it, so I can recommend it.

1010
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:53.460
A lot of these books are on Audible.com, So that's where I get them, but you can get them on iTunes and things as well.

1011
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:14.820
Well, dear listener, that is all the time we have for the invasion of time and for season 15 as a whole.

1012
01:02:14.940 --> 01:02:26.699
Nathan and I will be back next week, along with Todd, to talk about the Grybos operation, or rebos operation, depending on whether you're from the south or the north, and begin the key to time season.

1013
01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:30.300
Richard will rejoin us for Destiny of the Daleks in six weeks' time.

1014
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:33.360
I'm knitting a very long white scarf as we spin.

1015
01:02:33.659 --> 01:02:41.460
My image on the on our who we are things is the scarf I made for myself when I was 14 in my homemade scarf.

1016
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:43.619
So I'll do a white one for Destiny of the Darlings.

1017
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:44.219
Oh, excellent.

1018
01:02:44.340 --> 01:02:52.679
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter, over on bondfinger.com.

1019
01:02:52.739 --> 01:02:55.500
We have variety of Sean Connery commentaries available.

1020
01:02:55.559 --> 01:03:00.480
You can also find that Bond Finger on Facebook and iTunes and Bond Finger cast on Twitter.

1021
01:03:00.539 --> 01:03:02.639
Until we see you next time.

1022
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:05.820
May all your transduction barriers keep out all alien invaders.

1023
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:06.780
Thank you very much and good night.

1024
01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:07.559
Good night.

1025
01:03:07.619 --> 01:03:08.340
Thank you, everyone.

1026
01:03:10.019 --> 01:03:15.480
That was Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1027
01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:20.820
This episode, Timothy Dalton's pyjamas, was recorded on October the 11th, 2015.

1028
01:03:21.059 --> 01:03:23.940
The next episode will be released on December the 6th.

1029
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:31.199
We respectfully dedicate this episode to Anthony Reid, script editor of Doctor Who and writer of several stories, including the invasion of time.

1030
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.860
Oh, that is not staying there.

1031
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:44.099
You need to you need to uncleanse.

1032
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:46.860
There you go.

1033
01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:48.119
Tag of the season.

1034
01:03:48.179 --> 01:03:48.960
Oh please.

1035
01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:50.460
Okay.