WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:03:46

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast with a ponchant for television made in

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the style of early quasar 5 with a touch of Rigour and the merest

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hint of Second Dynasty Simeon Empire.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm a well oiled cog and a Flakati throw for this episode, so

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you'll be hearing nothing through me.

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And we've returned to the Planet of the Time, Lords, for the

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Graham Williams season finale, the invasion of time.

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So this is my responsibility, this one.

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And something I have wanted to save the last few weeks is, quite

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unconsciously, we've actually been building towards this season

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finale, in a way, Doctor Who really hasn't built towards a season

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finale since the Damons.

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In more than half the stories this season, we've found out a

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little bit more about Time Lord Society.

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So, an image of the Fendal, we find out they can destroy and time

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loop a whole planet.

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In the Sunmakers, of course, we find out that other races are

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aware of them but don't consider them financially viable.

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In underworld, of course, we get their policy of non-interference

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which is a bit weird, considering, in the war games, they time

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Looper Planet, in image of the Fendal, they time Looper Planet, in

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terror of the autons, they send a man in a bowler hat to tell the

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doctor that the master's going to show up.

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And in Genesis of Daleks, they kick off the whole time war, but

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they don't interfere.

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They don't interfere.

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But I don't actually see a big problem with that because when you

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look at this story, they're a bunch of bloody hypocrites anyway

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and it's wonderful.

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Can I just say, I hate the time loss.

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I think Gallifrey as well.

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And I think the whole show goes to hell the moment that it's

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revealed.

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A, that the doctor's a time, Lord, and then B, that he comes from

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the planet Gallifrey and the constellation.

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No offence to Gary Russell and his and the beautiful big finish

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series, Gala, which is my pick of the week, as it turns out.

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Oh, no, there is.

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And like last year, right, we went to Gallifrey.

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And it was, it was a huge event.

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We'd lost Sarah.

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The whole show's changing its focus.

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You know, we're heading away from the time lords.

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We've got the master and he's sort of reimagined as this sort of

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gothic returning Hinchcliffian villain and all of that.

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And it was a big event.

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A big world shanky event.

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Here we just sort of come back for a bit of running around while

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we get chased by some tin foil.

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You know what I mean?

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And then, you know, every subsequent galafray story will be just

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appallingly terrible without exception.

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And just think it's a bad idea.

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I was so glad when Russell blew it up.

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Oh, I'm not going to go to the pick of the week yet, but we've

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seen with Gary and his terrific team that the story is set on

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Gallifrey, the big finish I think have done for 6 series now, are

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really interesting and, you know, you get to that cod Shakespeare

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level of intrigue.

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It works so well, a closed environment with a lot of complex

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characters at loggerheads with each other is what Doctor Who does

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best.

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So it's a sort of eye, Claudius, political.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Exactly.

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And it should be doing that.

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And the reason in the future, well, not to preempt too much, but

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there are other reasons that those stories in the future won't be

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working and I don't think it's necessarily the base concept.

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What this is not, however, to say that this is not a workable or a

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functional story, I think, is not necessarily true.

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I love the time lords in this.

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I don't think it's not a functional story, but I do...

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I want a Barousa t-shirt.

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I want an Arnott, John Arnott t-shirt.

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You know, Angus McKay was always my barusa.

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Why are they always just that little bit camp?

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Yeah, actually, I want a t-shirt.

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Not a t-shirt.

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I just want to walk around at work and when people ask me for my

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advice, I just want to say things like, there is nothing more

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useless than a lock with a voice imprint.

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They can't slap you, you've got your personal force field.

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Haddling medallion on and the batteries are still fine.

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Yeah.

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You know, Nathan, when you're talking about Gallifrey being a

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place for political intrigue, I think of the Gallifrey stories in

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the classic series, this is the one that gets the right level of

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political intrigue to lightness of touch.

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Because when we discussed Deadly Assassin, something we said was

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you know, it was too nasty. it was too mean.

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Whereas this, Kelna, Barusa, Andred, they all have a sense of

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humour, even Chief Surgeon Goma, who doesn't get much lines.

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They've all got a bit of a sense of humour, but it doesn't mean we

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laugh at the characters.

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Their sources of comedy rub, the figures of comedy.

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And I think that's one of the areas where this story succeeds.

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We don't need the time lords to be the sources of comedy because

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we have Derek Deadman.

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Well, really unfortunate choice for an actor's name to, you know

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if he was going to change his name to something, Probably not

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dead.

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Let's not get ahead of ourselves, however.

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Going to someone else in this, is there?

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Going back to the beginning, some people out there may not know

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this, this was not originally the story for this.

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Not at all.

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Anthony Reid had worked with a writer on, I think, The Persuaders

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called Philip Weir.

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And so, knew that we could write, well, that he could write

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interesting stuff.

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The production team had already been up against it with

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Underworld.

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So they thought, no, we need someone who's reliable.

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We've got a very short lead in for this.

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And they devised this idea.

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The central starting idea was, what if not everyone on Gallifree's

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time are time wards?

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Yes.

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You know, because we've got one dominant species on Earth.

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It doesn't mean that everywhere else in the galaxy you've got only

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one dominant species.

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So the idea was that there was going to be a race of cat people

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living on Galaxy.

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Presaging the internet.

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That's right And so the story was provisionally entitled Killers

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in the Dark, or Killers of the Dark.

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In the 1980s, Graham Williams couldn't remember what it was called

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and jokingly referred to it as the killers of Jinseng, which

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people actually took seriously.

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It was at a convention.

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Yeah, and Anthony Reid and David Weir sat down and wrote a

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storyline, and David Weir went away to writing scripts, and he

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only had 4 weeks to write 6 scripts, which even for Doctor Who was

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considered a type turnaround.

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Optimistic, yes.

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Now, the 1st 5 scripts arrived exactly on the due date.

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And for Doctor Who, that was unusual.

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That's the reason that such a short date was set because they said

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to him, look, we know you're probably going to take another two. 2

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weeks.

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It's fine.

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Don't worry about it, but this is the date we put on the

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paperwork.

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So the 1st 5 scripts comes in, Anthony Reid goes, oh, this is

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great.

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You know, we've already got the director working on it.

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We've already got our costume designer designing cat people, and

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those design documents exist, and you can see them on the DVD.

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I started reading the scripts and realised that the narrative was

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completely incomprehensible and also David Weir had severely

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overestimated the Doctor Who budget in that one episode

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Cliffhanger involved the Doctor and Leila in gladiatorial combat

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in the middle of something the size of Wembley Stadium filled with

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cat people.

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Yeah.

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So...

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Or just cats.

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Yeah.

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So the situation they were in was this.

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They had an unworkable script for the season finale.

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A scene shifters strike meant that half their studio time was

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given over to the yearly Christmas specials.

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They were offered to truncate the series and to be able to carry

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the money over.

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So when they were offered to truncate underworld, they were told

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you won't get the money, they were actually told, you can carry

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the money over till next year.

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Now, Graham Williams didn't trust that because he knew what the

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BBC was.

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And precedents would have been, yes, you'd have just lost that

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budget next year round.

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Yeah, and it would have been, well, you know, if you can only make

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20 episodes at a time.

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We'll only give you 20 episodes next year.

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We'll never see that happening in the future, will we?

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No.

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Not only that, but they also had a director who'd already started

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working on it.

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They were reliant on it being on Gallifray and reusing sets and

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pieces from the Deadly Assassin.

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So were they on in storage?

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They make the design so great?

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Because they looked remarkably close to...

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The walls were the same flat. in storage. thought the flats were

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yeah.

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Pretty much the area that's reused is like where the TARDIS lands

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and the coronation area, that was the president's area, where the

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president comes down and gets shot from deadly assassin.

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Yeah, so that just looks more slightly more spacious.

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Yeah, it does because the Deadly Assassin had that really dark

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Gothic thing.

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Like, it didn't matter...

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It didn't manage to be stone or anything.

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It was still sort of tacky plastic.

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Well, you know, it's meant to look like it's made of glass.

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The whole of Galifre, the Capitol is meant to be carved in and

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cast in glass, which is why you've got those shiny green disco

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edges on everything.

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But until you know that, it just looks like Lulu set from top of

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the pot.

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I like it in Deadly Assassin.

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Yeah, it's it's amazing that in all the galafray stories we get in

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the classic series, isn't it?

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half dozen or less, that we never see the capital from the

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outside.

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Well, we just can't afford it, can we?

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Well, they made the city of Mechanus with matchsticks and wax.

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That looked great.

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Yeah, exactly.

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A model would have been very nice, thank you.

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And finally, they had very little budget for new costume. because

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half the costume designers' time was already taken up designing

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killer cats, which they then realised they couldn't afford to

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make.

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So...

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Anthony Reid went home and wrote... and wrote the script, and

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instead of sending it in episode by episode, he sent it in, scene

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by scene, to Gerald Blake, the director.

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And so Gerald Blake would read through them while Gerald Blake was

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reading through them, Graham Williams was rewriting them and

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script editing them.

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So Graham Williams took over a script editor.

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Graham Williams then went home one Monday night and stayed up 3

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days straight until Friday morning giving the final script

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rewrite.

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So that is the situation we head into with this story.

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You know, I think this might be the worst season of the 1970s, but

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it is a miracle that it got made at all under these

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circumstances.

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And there are great moments in this season, aren't there?

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Absolutely.

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And you know what?

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I think this is very comfortably the 2nd or 3rd best of this

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season.

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It's actually a terrific story, Doctor Who story.

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Because of John Arnott and Tom Baker, and bloke who plays Guy

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Crayford.

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Oh, Milton John.

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I just want to call him a guy from everything.

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Gee, it's got lovely casting.

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Six parters never really worked.

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Not since Keys of Mariners, which is cracking.

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Fantastic.

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And I think I think this has a good chance of working in some

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degrees because it does the thing that keys of mariners does.

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It's 3 stories.

251
00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:33.600
Yeah, absolutely.

252
00:11:33.659 --> 00:11:36.659
That 1st two-parter does something that we have never, ever seen

253
00:11:36.659 --> 00:11:37.740
before.

254
00:11:37.860 --> 00:11:39.240
Tom Baker behaving himself on acting?

255
00:11:39.299 --> 00:11:41.159
No, Tom Baker acting, yeah.

256
00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:45.299
No, it is that thing where the very 1st scene, isn't it?

257
00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:50.639
is the doctor, the doctor being furtive and but he's already met

258
00:11:50.639 --> 00:11:51.480
the aliens.

259
00:11:51.539 --> 00:11:53.220
He's already never phoned out now.

260
00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:57.539
So it plunges right in medias rays in a way that we've never, ever

261
00:11:57.539 --> 00:12:00.600
seen. par for the course for the new series, isn't it?

262
00:12:00.659 --> 00:12:03.480
You know, but it's never happened in the classic series before.

263
00:12:03.539 --> 00:12:05.940
We're all standing around the Tartars faffing around and talking

264
00:12:05.940 --> 00:12:10.200
about, you know, like our last adventure or whatever and then we

265
00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:14.100
turn up or or, you know, we get to meet some other characters and

266
00:12:14.100 --> 00:12:15.600
stuff and then the Tartars arise.

267
00:12:15.659 --> 00:12:17.879
We've never had this thing where we arrive in the middle of

268
00:12:17.879 --> 00:12:21.600
something where the doctor's already met the aliens.

269
00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:22.799
He's made some deal with them.

270
00:12:22.860 --> 00:12:23.759
We don't know what it is.

271
00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:28.919
You know, Leila is being suspicious and we're suspicious of him as

272
00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:29.039
well.

273
00:12:29.100 --> 00:12:32.820
And it's not resolved until, like, episode three.

274
00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:36.360
I mean, essentially, the first two episodes are what the hell is

275
00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:37.080
the doctor doing?

276
00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:40.980
Then you get 2 episodes of sort of running around, away from the

277
00:12:40.980 --> 00:12:43.320
Vardens, and then you've got another 2 episodes of running away

278
00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:44.399
from this on tarns.

279
00:12:44.460 --> 00:12:49.080
And they're not that successful, but at least the show goes

280
00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:49.440
somewhere.

281
00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:54.840
Yeah, I think that Graham Williams and Anthony Reed here are co

282
00:12:53.940 --> 00:12:58.500
writing together under the BBC approved pseudonym of David Agnew

283
00:12:58.500 --> 00:13:03.059
which was a sort of BBC general pseudonym for, if a writer wants

284
00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:05.759
to take their name off a script or a writer can't be credited

285
00:13:05.759 --> 00:13:08.759
because, let's say, they're the script editor and producer.

286
00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:12.059
I think they've been very clever in that, in order to get the plot

287
00:13:12.059 --> 00:13:12.480
moving along.

288
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:13.740
They are constantly changing it.

289
00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.659
But at the same time, they rely on two very specific cliffhanger

290
00:13:18.659 --> 00:13:19.080
devices.

291
00:13:19.139 --> 00:13:23.460
The cliffhanger endings for episodes one, three, and five are all

292
00:13:23.460 --> 00:13:27.179
the doctor being threatened, ending for episode one is the doctor

293
00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:31.559
being attacked by the crown, which, according to the script, is

294
00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:34.980
meant to imply that the Vardens are accessing the Matrix and have

295
00:13:34.980 --> 00:13:38.279
possibly discovered, but they couldn't convey that without

296
00:13:38.279 --> 00:13:40.799
spoiling episode 3 where he explains what's going on.

297
00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:45.360
The end of episode 3 is Andred about to shoot the doctor.

298
00:13:45.419 --> 00:13:49.919
And the end of episode 5 is Kelner attacking the TARDIS.

299
00:13:49.980 --> 00:13:53.639
The end of episode 2 is the reveal of the Vardens.

300
00:13:53.700 --> 00:13:57.179
The end of episode 4 is the reveal of the Santarans, and the end

301
00:13:57.179 --> 00:14:00.179
of episode 6 is the reveal of canine Mark 2.

302
00:14:00.419 --> 00:14:04.019
Yeah, it's...

303
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:06.120
It's terrible tombstone teeth.

304
00:14:07.139 --> 00:14:11.940
No, this story comes in for some flack, particularly, not even the

305
00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:13.679
Sonic screwdriver will get me out of this one.

306
00:14:13.980 --> 00:14:16.740
Oh, break that 4th wall straight to camera.

307
00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:17.940
And it's 2 story.

308
00:14:18.059 --> 00:14:21.360
Yeah, so do I. So do I. And it's 2 stories running where he breaks

309
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:23.759
the 4th wall, because of course, in Underworld. where it all

310
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:24.240
went.

311
00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:32.700
Wonder the blurs can be sucked. of his future career. 4 points to

312
00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:34.080
Gerald Blake, the director of this.

313
00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:37.259
He did Abominable Snowman, which I really love as an audio.

314
00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:41.940
And yeah, also the, I think it's the Abbot from the Abominable

315
00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:46.679
Snowman is back, who was also Hogg in an unearthly child.

316
00:14:47.820 --> 00:14:51.179
His name is Charles Morgan.

317
00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:52.379
Gold.

318
00:14:52.379 --> 00:14:53.220
Gold.

319
00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:54.419
Gold.

320
00:14:57.299 --> 00:14:59.759
No, he...

321
00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:03.960
He's the Abbott in...

322
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.419
In the outrageous hat.

323
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:07.980
Oh, the Abbot, not Padma Sam.

324
00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:09.240
Not Pamba Samba.

325
00:15:09.299 --> 00:15:09.960
He's the abbot.

326
00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:12.000
I had an opportunity to say Padmis Abba.

327
00:15:12.059 --> 00:15:14.159
You're very happy so long.

328
00:15:14.220 --> 00:15:18.659
And of course, he was Hog way back in an unearthly child.

329
00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:19.500
He was hers mother.

330
00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:23.279
Sorry, he was her's father, I should say.

331
00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:25.080
Quite liked her. couldn't stand here.

332
00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:29.340
Yeah, and he's, you know, he's quite good.

333
00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:31.259
And we get that intrigue in episode two, you know.

334
00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.299
And he's got that wonderful fruity voice.

335
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.039
He is part of the Matrix.

336
00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:37.019
It cannot reject him.

337
00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:39.600
There's no one in this I don't like.

338
00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:41.460
I've actually warmed to Andrew now.

339
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:43.440
I find him charming and I can see.

340
00:15:43.500 --> 00:15:45.480
I thank you, Louise Jamison.

341
00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:49.019
Thank you, Chris, for getting those beats that they all just could

342
00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:52.019
do in rehearsal so rushed, and sadly, there was no script time, but

343
00:15:52.019 --> 00:15:54.000
just trying to build a relationship between these two.

344
00:15:54.059 --> 00:15:54.720
Yeah.

345
00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:55.980
I think Leela leaves.

346
00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:57.840
I'm sorry to jump in because, you know, this is what we do

347
00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:58.500
timeywami.

348
00:15:58.620 --> 00:16:00.419
Leila leaves on an excuse.

349
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:04.139
She fancies this boy, the character writing for this has received

350
00:16:04.139 --> 00:16:06.539
a lot of flack, not least from Louise Jamieson herself.

351
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.759
But it makes perfect sense to me.

352
00:16:08.820 --> 00:16:11.940
To me, Leila's really no older than 1819.

353
00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:15.480
I don't know how the character's age, but she's a young person in

354
00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.019
the 17.

355
00:16:16.200 --> 00:16:17.460
This is her first crush.

356
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:21.179
And you think about how that was for you.

357
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:24.120
This is the entire world when you first fall for someone.

358
00:16:24.179 --> 00:16:27.840
Yeah, and also, Tom has been a complete arse.

359
00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:29.519
And I didn't say the doctor.

360
00:16:29.580 --> 00:16:31.019
Tom has been awful.

361
00:16:31.139 --> 00:16:34.980
She really is perfunctory with her to the point of then open

362
00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.419
dismissal and denigration of her against the Vardens.

363
00:16:39.480 --> 00:16:44.820
And instead of sulking as she did in underworld, She says, no, I

364
00:16:44.820 --> 00:16:46.139
have my micro values.

365
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:47.159
I know this is a decent man.

366
00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:49.379
I will defend him even though I don't understand what's going on.

367
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:51.179
But she must be miffed by it.

368
00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.519
I think this is actually, you know what?

369
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.759
I'm going to sort all of these folk out as well and you.

370
00:16:56.820 --> 00:16:58.559
Yeah, you know what?

371
00:16:58.620 --> 00:17:02.759
I've never seen her leaving as a huge problem, and I think it's

372
00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:06.240
entirely because of Chris Tranchall and Louise Jameson's

373
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:06.720
performances.

374
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:09.660
They've obviously looked at this script and they would have known

375
00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:11.700
it was done in a hurry.

376
00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:14.400
They would have known the situation at the very least, Louise

377
00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.900
would have because the producers of Doctor Who always seemed to be

378
00:17:18.900 --> 00:17:21.900
very open and honest with their stuff. you know, there are some

379
00:17:21.900 --> 00:17:24.660
exceptions like what happened to Maureen O'Brien and Jackie Lane.

380
00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:28.380
But by this stage, it seems like people work together in quite a

381
00:17:28.380 --> 00:17:29.099
tight-knit team.

382
00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:30.480
So yeah, absolutely.

383
00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:31.500
They go, you know what?

384
00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:36.180
By this point, we have to get to a point where it's kind of

385
00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:40.619
believable that we get together and actors love that kind of

386
00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:40.859
thing.

387
00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:45.059
Some actors much prefer not having a clearly defined character

388
00:17:45.059 --> 00:17:47.940
that they can then inject character into themselves.

389
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:49.200
And it's right.

390
00:17:49.259 --> 00:17:50.579
That's very modernest theatre way.

391
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.599
Well, you know what happened?

392
00:17:51.660 --> 00:17:53.759
So just before, because I know there'll probably be a counter

393
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:57.660
opinion to this amongst us, but just to press you that, Gerald

394
00:17:57.660 --> 00:18:00.539
Blake deliberately knew what had been going on with Louise and

395
00:18:00.539 --> 00:18:00.960
Tom.

396
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:05.039
And that's why he said, Tom, what was working with John Arnott and

397
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.279
doing gorgeous things together on their Con Shakespeare Roby

398
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:09.480
Frocky thing over in the corner.

399
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:13.680
And also said to Tom on the 1st day, oh, I remember when you were

400
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:17.700
Patrick Troughton and Charming. you know that?

401
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:20.880
And really put him in his place because it actually, unless you're

402
00:18:20.880 --> 00:18:21.779
an older statesman.

403
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.339
You couldn't control Tom by this stage.

404
00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:26.279
And unfortunately, Williams, as has later come out, was, you know

405
00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.039
having his own private difficulties and just really not keeping

406
00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:30.960
the reins on Tom the way Hinchcliffe did.

407
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:34.140
So I just love I love the scenes with Tom and John Arnott.

408
00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:36.240
I love that they're entirely separate from the Leila saints.

409
00:18:36.299 --> 00:18:36.539
Go on.

410
00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:40.740
So then, see, I think that the Leila Andrew thing, we all

411
00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:43.440
desperately would like for it to work, but it just doesn't.

412
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:49.140
And there's one scene early on, which is sort of a rom-com, you

413
00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:50.759
know, where they're being antagonists.

414
00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:54.539
And I think that in the wardrobe, he keeps calling him madam and

415
00:18:54.539 --> 00:18:56.700
then correcting himself.

416
00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:01.140
Call me madam, a lovely community. musical of it. 50s, yes.

417
00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:04.619
Um, uh, you know, she wants to bring a knife into the doctor's

418
00:19:04.619 --> 00:19:06.000
investiture, all of that sort of thing.

419
00:19:06.059 --> 00:19:06.960
It's in episode.

420
00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:07.799
She don't sit by now.

421
00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:10.799
And it's quite a good scene.

422
00:19:10.859 --> 00:19:11.759
Do you know what I mean?

423
00:19:11.819 --> 00:19:13.380
And the 2 of them weren't quite well together.

424
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.140
And I remember watching it this time through and feeling a bit of

425
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:16.619
relief.

426
00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:18.420
Or maybe they do properly sell this.

427
00:19:18.539 --> 00:19:24.539
But basically, like they hold hands once in the subsequent 5

428
00:19:24.539 --> 00:19:27.599
episodes, maybe they glance at each other.

429
00:19:27.660 --> 00:19:31.259
I think there's no way of seeing it other than as the worst

430
00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:34.619
companion departure of the 1970s apart from Liz.

431
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:36.660
The 60s was cruel to companions.

432
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:37.380
Do you know what I mean?

433
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.839
It would throw them out, you know, and all of that sort of thing.

434
00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:42.240
Vicky, I'm still heartbroken about Vicky.

435
00:19:42.299 --> 00:19:46.920
The 70s, they've learned to do a better job and both Joe and Sarah

436
00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.660
got great leaving scenes.

437
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:51.000
Here, it's just utterly perfunctory.

438
00:19:51.059 --> 00:19:53.640
And I have to say, much as I love the Williams years.

439
00:19:53.700 --> 00:19:56.460
It's something that he's shockingly bad at.

440
00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:57.539
Yeah, yeah.

441
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:02.160
Inasmuch as his successor, John Nathan Turner, who comes in for a

442
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:03.779
lot of criticism, some of it justified.

443
00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:08.039
John Nathan Turner, always does good companion departures.

444
00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:11.880
He's very sensitive to the same thing that Russell is with the, you

445
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:16.200
know, the sitcom way or the soap way of writing in that there's a

446
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:16.740
continuity.

447
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.859
I think maybe we're just all seeing this relationship through a

448
00:20:19.859 --> 00:20:21.779
heteronormative projection.

449
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:26.460
Who's to say that, really, that's, I think the relationship is

450
00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:29.940
perfectly working as a subdom. paradigm.

451
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.180
I just think you know who gets to wear the feather boa in that

452
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:33.599
relationship.

453
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:34.500
It's not Lima.

454
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:38.039
Well, consider consider commander Maxwell's hat later on.

455
00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.579
Yeah, I just think there's just too little to it.

456
00:20:41.700 --> 00:20:42.420
Do you know what I mean?

457
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.339
Like, it's not given it enough screen time.

458
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:45.420
It is an afterthought.

459
00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:47.039
It's like Mel.

460
00:20:47.099 --> 00:20:50.099
Remember Mel's departure where she goes off with sablong glitz for

461
00:20:50.099 --> 00:20:51.299
no readily apparent reason?

462
00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:53.099
And it is that...

463
00:20:53.099 --> 00:20:55.079
It shoots down the GMT argument, doesn't it?

464
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.539
Because it's the only time who gets lovely dialogue.

465
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.940
It's the only time that JNT gets it wrong.

466
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.900
And it is these days you would just nip back to earth for a final

467
00:21:03.900 --> 00:21:06.059
32nd scene and say goodbye to them.

468
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:06.900
Do you know what I mean?

469
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:10.859
But we're on Gallifrey, but we've somehow got to get rid of Louise

470
00:21:10.859 --> 00:21:11.759
what the hell do we do?

471
00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:12.960
Do you know what I mean?

472
00:21:13.019 --> 00:21:13.740
We'll marry her off.

473
00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:15.180
Now, I think it's Paul.

474
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.200
As a boy, I wanted her to be disintegrated by the D-Mat gun and

475
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:21.599
then and the doctor losing his memory over that.

476
00:21:21.660 --> 00:21:25.319
Yeah, and that's what Louise Jameson wanted as well.

477
00:21:25.380 --> 00:21:27.000
She wanted to see Leila killed off.

478
00:21:27.059 --> 00:21:29.819
The whole problem came from the fact that Graham Williams was

479
00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:33.359
under so much pressure that when Louis Jameson kept saying, no

480
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:34.500
really, I don't want to do another year.

481
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:36.660
He kept thinking, oh, I'll bring around.

482
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:37.319
She'll come around.

483
00:21:37.380 --> 00:21:39.839
It's exactly what will happen next year with Mary Tam.

484
00:21:39.900 --> 00:21:43.440
So the problem is at the 11th hour, she's like, no, really, you

485
00:21:43.440 --> 00:21:44.940
need to write me a leaving scene.

486
00:21:44.940 --> 00:21:51.480
And so he writes that in and I think on the DVD or in an interview

487
00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.720
I've seen Louise give reaction was just kind of, oh, what?

488
00:21:55.920 --> 00:22:00.420
I specifically said, kill me or something. don't marry me off I'm

489
00:22:00.420 --> 00:22:02.099
very grateful they didn't kill off Leila.

490
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:03.660
Yeah, I was a child viewer.

491
00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:06.299
I would have been, you don't do that to children.

492
00:22:06.359 --> 00:22:07.380
No, absolutely.

493
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.299
I mean, big finish have sort of spoiler alert killed off Leila.

494
00:22:12.359 --> 00:22:13.140
I say sort of.

495
00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:14.519
You'll need to listen to it, folks.

496
00:22:14.579 --> 00:22:18.119
But in a way, that's okay because that's not children watching

497
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:18.480
it.

498
00:22:18.539 --> 00:22:19.799
It's us now.

499
00:22:19.859 --> 00:22:23.220
And yeah, again, that's it. for fat 40 something.

500
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:23.819
Thank you.

501
00:22:23.819 --> 00:22:25.259
You're all right.

502
00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:30.240
I have no problem with it because as again, I then saw it.

503
00:22:30.299 --> 00:22:33.779
And even as a young man, I saw it as, no, no, this is Leila's

504
00:22:33.779 --> 00:22:38.940
excuse to get away from a really agitating doctor that she's kind

505
00:22:38.940 --> 00:22:39.960
of fallen out with.

506
00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.220
It's just not fun anymore, doctor.

507
00:22:41.279 --> 00:22:42.359
Yeah.

508
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:43.500
But I mean, even do that.

509
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:44.460
Do you know what I mean?

510
00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:45.119
Like, do something.

511
00:22:45.180 --> 00:22:46.799
Oh, he's perfunctory.

512
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:47.640
First crush, though.

513
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.599
First crush.

514
00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:52.500
No, I believe it works within the confines of the story.

515
00:22:52.559 --> 00:22:54.660
And did we say, John Arnott?

516
00:22:54.779 --> 00:22:56.039
John Arnott.

517
00:22:56.099 --> 00:22:57.599
Oh, he is wonderful.

518
00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.579
He's our Gelgood.

519
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:01.980
Hermione Gilgood yes.

520
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:05.700
Todd said when we were doing the deadly assassin, that the deadly

521
00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:07.680
assassin was never really on his radar as a kid.

522
00:23:07.740 --> 00:23:09.599
This was his barusa.

523
00:23:09.660 --> 00:23:10.920
And you know what?

524
00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:12.839
I have to agree.

525
00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:15.359
I think he's...

526
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:17.279
He's the only one I like, actually.

527
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:18.420
It was that weird thing.

528
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.200
And we probably talked about it when we did Deadly Assassin.

529
00:23:22.259 --> 00:23:24.660
We didn't see Deadly Assassin.

530
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:25.200
No, we didn't.

531
00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:27.960
We read the novel before we saw the episode.

532
00:23:28.019 --> 00:23:32.819
Yeah, but I think I saw this before I read the novel of Deadly

533
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:34.680
Assassin or saw Deadly Assassin.

534
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:36.960
So this is my 1st introduction to Gallifrey.

535
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.720
And it is a sequel you are kind of expected to know what the

536
00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:43.200
Matrix is, and all of that sort of thing, and the sash, that

537
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:45.900
hilarious sash that the master tried to hit the doctor with.

538
00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:49.380
Yeah, yeah. broken it because if you look at it, the join is

539
00:23:49.380 --> 00:23:51.059
terrible where it joins up.

540
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:55.019
But there is actually a little nice piece of dialogue in the 1st

541
00:23:55.019 --> 00:23:59.700
episode that attempts to re-explain the Matrix in very simple

542
00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:02.460
dialogue that's not just characters telling each other things they

543
00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:03.000
already know.

544
00:24:03.059 --> 00:24:05.880
It's Peruso kind of saying to doctor, you don't know this because

545
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:07.140
you don't pay attention to anything.

546
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:10.500
So I'm going to tell you once more and any teacher can sympathise

547
00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:10.920
with that.

548
00:24:10.980 --> 00:24:14.339
It is, it's actually the Matrix for the 1st time that really, I

549
00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:17.819
mean, they call, use the word Matrix, I think, in Deadly Assassin

550
00:24:17.819 --> 00:24:21.359
but it is the APC net, and so they turn, this is the kind of

551
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:22.500
creation of the Matrix.

552
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:23.579
Yes, that's true.

553
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:25.920
It's also the creation of Rassalon, really.

554
00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:29.519
You know, Rastlon gets a mention in deadly assassin, but I think

555
00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:32.519
the doctor has to have him explained, doesn't he?

556
00:24:32.579 --> 00:24:35.160
Like they, no one really knows who he is.

557
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:38.519
Here now in the investitures scene. you know what I mean?

558
00:24:38.579 --> 00:24:41.279
It's the sash of Rassalon and the robe of Rassalon and the

559
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:44.579
breeches of Rassalon. polka dotted pyjamas of wrestle.

560
00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:45.660
Yeah, he's got everything.

561
00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:46.680
You know what I mean?

562
00:24:46.740 --> 00:24:49.980
I'm just thinking of Timothy Dalton's pyjamas now.

563
00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:52.440
Oh, yeah.

564
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:53.700
Yeah, I know, right?

565
00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:55.740
Are we at the Vardens yet?

566
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.359
Yeah, let's get the vans.

567
00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:57.779
Yeah.

568
00:24:57.839 --> 00:24:59.279
Now I want to say...

569
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.460
The Bardens look amazing.

570
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:03.599
They do.

571
00:25:03.660 --> 00:25:06.839
How many milk bars did you go in while you were at school that had

572
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:09.839
Myla fringe curtains, fly screen curtains, just like that?

573
00:25:09.900 --> 00:25:11.099
It's so realistic.

574
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:14.099
There's a 2nd half to that sentence.

575
00:25:14.579 --> 00:25:18.480
On the special edition, new effects of the DVD.

576
00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:19.740
Oh, you're kidding.

577
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:21.059
Is there a special issue?

578
00:25:21.119 --> 00:25:21.660
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

579
00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:23.700
I'm going home now and watching it.

580
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:24.539
What do they look like?

581
00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.440
They look like energy beings in Star Trek, the next generation.

582
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:31.019
They look like bipedal features.

583
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:35.460
I think they're done by John Kelly. and he... just look like these

584
00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:35.700
things.

585
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.279
They look like transporter victims before they melt down.

586
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

587
00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:41.339
It looks like the Star Trek Transporter effect. electricity

588
00:25:41.339 --> 00:25:42.359
crackling along them.

589
00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:46.079
They're actually bipedal figures and John Kelly either filmed

590
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.599
himself or filmed someone else and then rotoscope the shape onto

591
00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:50.940
them to make them look better.

592
00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:53.460
They're nowhere near as good as the original one.

593
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:54.359
It's got to be soon.

594
00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:56.579
Yeah, yeah, the original shimmeries.

595
00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:58.319
And the cone heads.

596
00:25:58.380 --> 00:25:59.819
We think the cone heads in the 1st scene.

597
00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:01.079
I love Redship.

598
00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:03.900
It works in some scenes and doesn't work in others, the original

599
00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:04.680
shimmeriness.

600
00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:06.420
You know, as a kid, it worked for me.

601
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:08.220
I was perfectly happy that as a child.

602
00:26:08.279 --> 00:26:09.299
It's truly terrible.

603
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:13.380
And then when they arrive, Tom says disappointing, aren't they?

604
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:17.460
Like, actually, lampshades the fact that they're in the worst

605
00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:19.740
science fiction outfits.

606
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:20.339
But that's the point.

607
00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:22.140
They're dressed as Dan Dare.

608
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.259
They've even got the little fin on their helmets that you see in

609
00:26:25.259 --> 00:26:28.559
the buck Rogers and the greatest Frank Hampson, science fiction

610
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:30.960
British science fiction of all time, which is the Dan Dare Eagle

611
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:32.880
comic from 51 to...

612
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:34.319
Oh, so they're just guys.

613
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:38.279
No, but they're 50s British Empire SF.

614
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.880
Yeah, unfortunately, they've got, what is it, west country accents

615
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:42.839
or Midlands accents?

616
00:26:42.900 --> 00:26:46.680
Their voices are not very threatening, which is...

617
00:26:46.680 --> 00:26:47.160
What you're saying?

618
00:26:47.160 --> 00:26:48.180
Scots aren't threatening.

619
00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.559
Not sure about that.

620
00:26:49.619 --> 00:26:51.420
We've got Tom Kelly back again.

621
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:53.579
In the one story where he doesn't get stuck in a wall.

622
00:26:53.700 --> 00:26:58.259
But aside from that, you know, danger, danger.

623
00:26:58.319 --> 00:26:59.579
There is danger here.

624
00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:05.700
Yeah, he's got awful, but it's just a very odd choice, possibly a

625
00:27:05.700 --> 00:27:06.839
puzzling choice.

626
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:07.740
We'll see.

627
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:13.140
But that being said, I don't mind their humanoid form with the

628
00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:13.680
uniforms.

629
00:27:13.740 --> 00:27:14.759
It is a bit silly.

630
00:27:14.819 --> 00:27:15.839
It is a bit Dan dare.

631
00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:16.500
But.

632
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:19.079
Actually, you know who they look like?

633
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:21.660
They look like the science force in Ultraman, the original

634
00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:24.119
Ultraman with the silly helmets of what have you.

635
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:28.980
We need a silver wetsuit with some tea strainers on the eyes, don't

636
00:27:28.980 --> 00:27:29.279
we?

637
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:29.940
Yeah, yes.

638
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:32.519
Again, I don't have too much of a problem with them looking crap

639
00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:35.940
because they're not the main threat of the story, which is the

640
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:36.839
great double gambit.

641
00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:39.900
So can we talk about the end of part 4 then?

642
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:40.440
Yes, yes.

643
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:44.819
So part four. would be this superb fake out.

644
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:45.299
Okay?

645
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:49.380
Imagine a cliffhanger where we'd had a huge climax we'd fought and

646
00:27:49.380 --> 00:27:50.700
defeated the Vardens.

647
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:52.259
They were gone forever.

648
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.940
We were hugely excited, and then at the very end, the Santarin's

649
00:27:56.940 --> 00:27:57.299
turn up.

650
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:03.480
But what we get instead is canine faffing about, a bit of dialogue

651
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.059
and then we're told the Vardens are defeated.

652
00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:09.119
And Leila kind of goes, have we defeated the Vardens?

653
00:28:09.180 --> 00:28:12.839
All we did was fight a few guards, and Tom says, yeah, you know, it

654
00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:14.759
can't always be like the relief of Mafeking.

655
00:28:14.819 --> 00:28:19.259
And so it is the most dull and anticlimactic defeat of the

656
00:28:19.259 --> 00:28:19.859
bardens.

657
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.579
That is just achieved by standing around in a studio talking.

658
00:28:23.579 --> 00:28:27.839
And no action at all, nothing that involves the bargains.

659
00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:30.119
They're not tricked, you know, they're not outwitted.

660
00:28:30.180 --> 00:28:32.700
They just kind of all go away.

661
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.900
So it's almost impossible to believe that part 4 would have been a

662
00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:38.460
satisfying ending to the story.

663
00:28:38.579 --> 00:28:43.619
But in my alternative universe ending version of part four, where

664
00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:46.920
something exciting dispatches the bargains, it would have been

665
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:48.059
spectacular.

666
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:48.779
Yeah, yeah.

667
00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:51.119
And it would have been a very smug ending, because the doctor

668
00:28:51.119 --> 00:28:54.359
would have gone, you see, I was right to treat you all like crap.

669
00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:58.200
But some people that the doctor doesn't treat like crap in this

670
00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:58.500
story.

671
00:28:58.619 --> 00:29:00.119
Of course, we haven't mentioned them yet.

672
00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:01.380
The Outlanders.

673
00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:04.500
Now, we're not sure if they're Shaboogans or not or Shaboo.

674
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:05.160
No, they're not.

675
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:05.640
They're not.

676
00:29:05.700 --> 00:29:08.099
But of course, one of them is Max Faulkner.

677
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:09.059
It's not Terry Walsh.

678
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.099
Of course, another one.

679
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:13.440
Our very own...

680
00:29:13.500 --> 00:29:14.099
That is correct.

681
00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:15.000
Okay, Smith.

682
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:16.079
Then Gay Smith.

683
00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:17.400
And you know what?

684
00:29:17.460 --> 00:29:20.099
When I was Vince manager for the Doctor Club of Australia, we

685
00:29:20.099 --> 00:29:23.339
approached her several times to be a convention guest, and we

686
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:26.819
always got the most polite refusals.

687
00:29:27.539 --> 00:29:29.759
No, seriously.

688
00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:32.099
She should be up for it.

689
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:36.420
But I still have one of her letters or rather one of the letters

690
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:37.619
from a member of staff.

691
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:39.059
We should add for the overseas.

692
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:40.140
Yeah, yeah, there are a lot.

693
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:40.920
Yes, of course.

694
00:29:40.980 --> 00:29:43.980
Gay Waterhouse was, of course, an actress in this time.

695
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:45.420
And a model, I think.

696
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:49.079
Bumming around in London with her mates before she married Mr

697
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:51.539
Waterhouse, and she's now one of the wealthiest women in Australia

698
00:29:51.539 --> 00:29:53.700
and a horse race trainer.

699
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.319
Yes, trainer race person thing.

700
00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:56.519
That's correct.

701
00:29:56.579 --> 00:29:58.859
So for any of you out there interested in horse racing, it may not

702
00:29:58.859 --> 00:29:59.819
be in Australia for...

703
00:29:59.880 --> 00:30:01.259
Don't be because it's horribly cruel.

704
00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:02.400
It is horribly cruel.

705
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:06.119
But if you've ever heard of the Melbourne Cup, that is Australia's

706
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:07.140
big horse race every year.

707
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:07.980
It is horrible.

708
00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:12.599
Gaywaterhouse sits in an enormous big acrylic martini glass, like

709
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:17.099
Deedavonte's, and puts on one of Leela's leather red outfits and

710
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:18.900
does horrible things to a horse.

711
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.319
They shoot them on the track under a green CSO base cloth.

712
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:26.099
But, um, her letter of refusal, which I still have somewhere, says

713
00:30:26.099 --> 00:30:29.099
something along the lines of, um, also very fondly remember my

714
00:30:29.099 --> 00:30:31.799
acting career and it was so much fun to work on Doctor Who with

715
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:33.240
Tom Baker and Louise Jackson.

716
00:30:33.299 --> 00:30:38.099
My current career, working in horse racing, demands so much of my

717
00:30:38.099 --> 00:30:41.220
attention that I'm afraid that even if I were to commit, I may

718
00:30:41.220 --> 00:30:44.460
have to cancel at a late stage and I would not want to disappoint

719
00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:45.779
any of your attendees.

720
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.000
But she could pre-record something.

721
00:30:48.059 --> 00:30:49.619
Could you suggest that?

722
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:51.240
No, I didn't.

723
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:51.960
In costume.

724
00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:53.279
Yeah, yeah, we'll go over.

725
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:55.619
I think regardless of anything else she does, and certainly horse

726
00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:56.700
racing is very, very cruel.

727
00:30:56.759 --> 00:30:59.400
That is a very nice way to treat something that obviously she has

728
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:00.839
no interest in recreating.

729
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:01.619
I'm too rich.

730
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:05.519
Which is kind of how Diana Rigg reacts when you ask her along to

731
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:05.940
event.

732
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:07.140
Well, at least she's obvious about it.

733
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:08.279
At least she's honest about it.

734
00:31:08.339 --> 00:31:12.240
I'm not hanging out with you ming mongs. she says in a quasi

735
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:12.539
northern accent.

736
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:16.259
I've got I've got a sandpaper in me face, whatever it is that

737
00:31:16.259 --> 00:31:17.339
diner rigs doing this week.

738
00:31:17.579 --> 00:31:20.759
Let's talk about her an invasion of time, though.

739
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:25.259
She is the poshest a dropout you've ever heard of because these

740
00:31:25.259 --> 00:31:26.460
people are dropout.

741
00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:27.599
They literally drop the side.

742
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:28.680
They use the word.

743
00:31:28.740 --> 00:31:30.839
They're just kind of hippies, yeah.

744
00:31:30.900 --> 00:31:31.319
Yeah, yeah.

745
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:32.579
She's the poshest hippie ever.

746
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:33.420
What you gonna eat?

747
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:34.440
I've got smarties.

748
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:36.240
Actually, are smarties.

749
00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:37.740
Yeah, Rodan Smarties.

750
00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:39.720
Oh, we haven't talked about...

751
00:31:39.779 --> 00:31:41.339
We have time lady people.

752
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:42.240
We do.

753
00:31:42.299 --> 00:31:43.259
There's two ladies.

754
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:47.039
Time ladies, but we know she's actually just Anthony Ainley before

755
00:31:47.039 --> 00:31:48.420
it's regenerated.

756
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:51.059
She's fabulously posh.

757
00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:54.900
She is like a young woman who has just, she's working in a shop

758
00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:58.019
you know, just after she's graduated from her posh private

759
00:31:58.019 --> 00:31:58.740
school.

760
00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:00.240
Like a member of your staff, really.

761
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:05.039
But she is specifically, and this is both in the script and

762
00:32:05.039 --> 00:32:08.039
according to Graham Williams, she's specifically not a timelord.

763
00:32:08.099 --> 00:32:08.880
What?

764
00:32:08.940 --> 00:32:11.400
No, but hear me out because...

765
00:32:11.400 --> 00:32:12.720
Collective groom, listener, what?

766
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:15.599
And Graham Williams and Anthony Reed both had copies of the deadly

767
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:19.259
assassin for reference next to them when they were writing their

768
00:32:19.259 --> 00:32:19.619
scripts.

769
00:32:19.740 --> 00:32:22.380
They looked at the deadly assassin and noticed that there were no

770
00:32:22.380 --> 00:32:22.740
women.

771
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:26.220
Because it's a Hinchcliffe story by Rob Holmes.

772
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:28.619
But they thought, you know what?

773
00:32:28.680 --> 00:32:31.740
This plays into our theme of we want to explore the people on this

774
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:33.359
planet who are not time lords.

775
00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:34.980
And obviously this is sexist.

776
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:37.380
So it's like, let's highlight that sex with them, and that's why

777
00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.440
Rodan, when we 1st meet her, says, that barrier's there to keep me

778
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:42.900
apart from me from the time lords from everyone.

779
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.160
So they're acknowledging in the script, this gender, imbalance, and

780
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:47.819
inequality.

781
00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:51.359
Now, of course, you know, it's 1970s Doctor Who, so they don't

782
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:52.440
really hammer at home.

783
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:57.480
But Rodin does identify that she is not on everyone else's level

784
00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:58.200
and then what does she do?

785
00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:00.599
She builds the gun that kills the invaders.

786
00:33:00.660 --> 00:33:03.539
She rewives the Tartars better than the doctor can.

787
00:33:03.660 --> 00:33:05.519
Yeah, and that's a gorgeous scene, isn't it?

788
00:33:05.579 --> 00:33:06.779
It's a screwdriver.

789
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:08.819
And she's so good at it.

790
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.160
I was hoping as a child.

791
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.380
I thought that she was going to be the next companion.

792
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.099
And is there anything in the show notes that this was the Ramana?

793
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:18.900
She's clearly a dry run for a moment.

794
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.539
Yeah, yeah, but more than...

795
00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:25.680
I think they did consider her before going for a completely new

796
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.279
character.

797
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:29.700
Certainly, she's definitely the dry run for Romana.

798
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:33.480
I have heard some criticism of her performance that she's sort of

799
00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.960
too stoical at times, but no, I think she's got a fine line in

800
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:37.680
irony.

801
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:40.920
And when she gets outside the city, well, she sort of has her mini

802
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:43.680
breakdown, which also, I think, is very in character, because

803
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:45.720
until then, she's getting more and more stressed with the idea of

804
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:46.500
having to lead the city.

805
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.680
She's very, very brave, but at that point, she is just at the end

806
00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:51.720
of her tether, and she's been running.

807
00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:54.119
She's, you know, she's a girl friend.

808
00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:55.319
We don't have to run from anything.

809
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:56.880
No one will dare invade us.

810
00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:58.079
In half an hour.

811
00:33:58.259 --> 00:33:59.279
I have a century, it's myself.

812
00:33:59.339 --> 00:34:01.140
She's half an hour.

813
00:34:01.200 --> 00:34:02.339
Her whole world's falling apart.

814
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:05.339
Yeah, she certainly does more acting in that scene than Mary does

815
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:06.900
for the entire following year.

816
00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:10.079
Fighting words, Mr. I reckon.

817
00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:11.400
I reckon that's totally fair.

818
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:15.119
I'm very glad we have both Hillary, who is actually very beautiful

819
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:18.059
despite what her hair and costume is doing for her and we have

820
00:34:18.059 --> 00:34:18.719
Mary as well.

821
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:19.860
I'm glad that we have both of them.

822
00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:20.400
I love it.

823
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:20.820
I agree.

824
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.780
Yeah, and she's not named after a Godzilla monster for no reason

825
00:34:24.780 --> 00:34:25.199
I'm sure.

826
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:28.320
Yeah, I always thought that was weird.

827
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:33.000
Even the same colour, Rhodano Radon, in the original Japanese, is

828
00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.539
always this scarlet heliotrope colour.

829
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:39.059
At the end of episode four, of course, we have mentioned that the

830
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:41.340
Santarians are coming in and Todd has a few words, you'd like to

831
00:34:41.340 --> 00:34:41.820
say about them.

832
00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:45.599
Well, here we are at the invasion of time. you know what?

833
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:47.219
This is my gala frame.

834
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:50.039
My Castellan, my Barusa, my Andred.

835
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.159
The last time I watched this, out of context, I gave it zero out

836
00:34:53.159 --> 00:34:53.340
of 10.

837
00:34:53.579 --> 00:34:57.300
Now, I actually think there are four and a half pretty decent

838
00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:01.440
episodes, and it actually has quite an entertaining story, and I

839
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.699
actually love most of the performances.

840
00:35:02.820 --> 00:35:05.820
Bringing in this on Tarans at the end is a good way to elevate

841
00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:06.059
things.

842
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.659
Although I don't think it's successful in terms of their

843
00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.320
performances, I do find some of it quite funny, but the last

844
00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:15.960
episode and a half does sort of collapse in upon itself.

845
00:35:16.019 --> 00:35:17.519
Does that ruin the entire story?

846
00:35:17.579 --> 00:35:20.159
I mean, I certainly think this is no worse than some of the

847
00:35:20.159 --> 00:35:23.940
wonderful Barriolettes Robert Sloman finales back in the Pertuy

848
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:24.239
era.

849
00:35:24.300 --> 00:35:27.719
The president of the Supreme Council is asked to see me.

850
00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:30.360
He's told me to dress in white and come up with some sort of

851
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:31.260
alias.

852
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:32.460
Perhaps Fred will do.

853
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.719
Derek Devin's come in for a lot of criticism as well.

854
00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:39.960
I actually really quite like his portrayal, 'cause, as Todd says

855
00:35:39.960 --> 00:35:41.280
the Santarans here are funny.

856
00:35:41.340 --> 00:35:45.900
And this son Toran's quite funny, because the voice makes him very

857
00:35:45.900 --> 00:35:46.800
stupid.

858
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:48.960
And, you know, it...

859
00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.119
Just say, working class London is...

860
00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:53.460
Well, the thing is, it's not really, because you've got the

861
00:35:53.460 --> 00:35:56.219
working class outlanders as well, who are very resourceful and

862
00:35:56.219 --> 00:35:57.780
help the doctor and what happened.

863
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.980
But have posh accent.

864
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.960
But have, well, Max Faulkner.

865
00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:03.360
Yeah, I'm not sure he really has posh accents.

866
00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:07.380
I quite like the Santarans in this because they're back to being

867
00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:09.599
brute force warriors again.

868
00:36:09.659 --> 00:36:11.579
You know, they're not planners and they're not strategists.

869
00:36:11.639 --> 00:36:14.579
They're not pole vultures either. if jumping over a bit of

870
00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:16.920
poolside furniture is anything to go by.

871
00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:18.420
You want to know who was playing that?

872
00:36:18.480 --> 00:36:20.219
George Santaran, Stewart, Fowl.

873
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.019
Yeah. drink the name.

874
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:25.679
So this is the 1st time we've ever had more than one Santara.

875
00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:26.699
Yeah, that's true.

876
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:29.940
Well, more than once on Tara and play by, would play by more than

877
00:36:29.940 --> 00:36:30.360
one actor.

878
00:36:30.420 --> 00:36:32.280
Yeah, yeah, stand up on the screen.

879
00:36:32.340 --> 00:36:35.519
Kevin Lindsay, of course, was sadly no longer with us at this

880
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:35.699
point.

881
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.000
Robert Holmes, despite not writing the script, had a big hand in

882
00:36:39.000 --> 00:36:42.000
it because he was he was offered to write the script 1st and he

883
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:43.320
said, no, look, I just quit.

884
00:36:43.380 --> 00:36:45.960
I really want to move away, but you can use any of my creations.

885
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:47.280
You can use Barusa.

886
00:36:47.340 --> 00:36:50.699
You can use, um, and they didn't end up, but you, you know, you

887
00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:52.500
can use spandrel, you can use Engen.

888
00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:54.000
What happened to Spanish?

889
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:55.260
I know, I miss...

890
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:55.920
Oh, you know what?

891
00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:57.420
I think it was just a matter of actor availability.

892
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:00.780
Nothing's going to hold the windows up without a sponge.

893
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:04.380
That's a very funny building reference if any of you get that

894
00:37:04.380 --> 00:37:04.559
one.

895
00:37:04.619 --> 00:37:05.940
Gosh, that was terrific.

896
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:06.539
Come on.

897
00:37:06.659 --> 00:37:10.619
An architectural conference would be rolling in the aisle.

898
00:37:10.739 --> 00:37:12.480
Yeah, that probably would just why I never go to them.

899
00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:16.260
But yeah, also he gave permission for the Santarans to be used.

900
00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:19.440
And I think they're written very, very finely here.

901
00:37:19.500 --> 00:37:23.400
They're written better here than Robert Holmes himself will write

902
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:26.280
them later in the 2 doctors, where he tries to put in jokes about

903
00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:27.480
the loneliness of command.

904
00:37:27.539 --> 00:37:30.960
But here, I think you really capture the fact that Santarans are a

905
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:31.320
bit thick.

906
00:37:31.380 --> 00:37:34.199
Oh, well, I mean, it's that thing where people say, oh, you know

907
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.960
the Santarans have been ruined forever because Strax is such a

908
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:37.980
comedy character.

909
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:38.699
Do you know what I mean?

910
00:37:38.760 --> 00:37:41.159
But we don't need this on Torrance. are terrible.

911
00:37:41.219 --> 00:37:43.079
Lynx is a great character.

912
00:37:43.139 --> 00:37:46.920
I think Styre is an okay character, but I can't think of a single

913
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:49.199
time apart from that where they've really worked.

914
00:37:49.260 --> 00:37:50.579
At all.

915
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:51.539
Do you know what I mean?

916
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:52.260
So we don't need them.

917
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.599
Like they've got this sort of, they're in the pantheon of Doctor

918
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.619
Who as the 5th most, you know, loved returning monster.

919
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.860
I think that's down to Kevin Lindsay's performances.

920
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:04.260
I just don't think there's any need for them, you know?

921
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:08.219
It's actually, it's actually down to um, to Doc Cotton.

922
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:11.699
It's actually down to June Brown. the reason they're so good.

923
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:14.519
It's everyone remembers Alan Roe and June Brown.

924
00:38:14.639 --> 00:38:17.280
I like Chrissy and Sarah Jane Adventures getting one in the

925
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.719
probing vent with her high heels.

926
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:19.860
I think that's it.

927
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:23.280
And the probic bent has been redesigned here so that it can snugly

928
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:24.780
accommodate Leila's nine.

929
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:26.639
Yes, that's what it was all full of them.

930
00:38:29.699 --> 00:38:30.659
I miss Leila.

931
00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:32.039
Yeah, I miss her already.

932
00:38:32.099 --> 00:38:34.559
We're not even at, you know, we're not even at the point.

933
00:38:34.619 --> 00:38:36.960
Well, we talked about where she leaves, but we're not properly

934
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:37.380
there yet.

935
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.440
No, I have no problems with the Santarans in this story.

936
00:38:40.500 --> 00:38:44.099
This is one I very fondly remember as a child watching it on

937
00:38:44.099 --> 00:38:44.579
tape.

938
00:38:44.579 --> 00:38:49.619
And it was the omnibus version from the mid 80s, and it had some

939
00:38:49.619 --> 00:38:54.300
kind of Eastern European stop motion animation thing on the tape

940
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:57.059
before and about a circus with no dialogue, so I had no idea

941
00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:00.179
what's going on. slightly nightmarish, and then that faded into

942
00:39:00.179 --> 00:39:03.780
the documentary. funny you say that, because this is not, as we've

943
00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:05.760
been talking about Shakespeare and I, Claudius, and it's

944
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:09.360
definitely informed by the success of BBC, like Claudius, the

945
00:39:09.360 --> 00:39:12.360
Robert Groves series, just before it, certainly with the scenes

946
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:15.239
with, did I mention John Arnott and Tom Baker?

947
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:17.639
But it's actually more Soviet brusher?

948
00:39:17.699 --> 00:39:21.420
It's more Soviet era anyway, even with the names of the

949
00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:22.619
Constructive Gallifry.

950
00:39:22.679 --> 00:39:24.300
It's very much Cold War.

951
00:39:24.360 --> 00:39:26.099
Can we talk about the resolution of this story?

952
00:39:26.159 --> 00:39:29.880
But what, but they've found the K1 robots gone and suddenly it's

953
00:39:29.880 --> 00:39:31.920
the most destructive weapon in the universe?

954
00:39:32.099 --> 00:39:33.059
It's got really terrible.

955
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:34.980
It's making no sense to me.

956
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:38.159
We've had DMac guns many times in Doctor.

957
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:40.860
This one would enable him to take over the galaxy.

958
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:42.480
That's in the dialogue.

959
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:45.599
And how do we resolve this terrible problem of Gallifre being

960
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:46.019
invaded?

961
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:47.699
We make a big gun and shoot someone.

962
00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:49.139
I mean, it's terrible.

963
00:39:49.260 --> 00:39:52.019
Well, yeah, you know, it is pretty terrible.

964
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:57.780
But also, it seems that what it does is, whoever wields it, whoever

965
00:39:57.780 --> 00:40:01.440
actually uses it to destroy, then doesn't remember the destructive

966
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:03.000
act, hello the moment.

967
00:40:03.059 --> 00:40:04.079
Hmm.

968
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:07.320
Yeah, it's galifrian technology.

969
00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:10.199
And as Barusa says at the end, it's the wisdom of wrestle.

970
00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:11.159
And so I was like, you know what?

971
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:12.960
Yes, you can use it to take a life.

972
00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:15.719
Yes, you can use it to be a destroyer, but you won't be able to

973
00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:16.199
use it forever.

974
00:40:16.260 --> 00:40:19.320
So you'd be hard pressed to take over the galaxy if the 1st time

975
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.079
you shot someone, you forgot where you were and what had been

976
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:22.619
going on.

977
00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:24.420
Is that why it's played by Billy Piper?

978
00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:28.559
Because the all the previous career is just forgotten as soon as

979
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:29.099
you move on.

980
00:40:29.159 --> 00:40:29.519
Yeah.

981
00:40:29.579 --> 00:40:34.139
But just to match things up a bit, we get Derek Deadman a store

982
00:40:34.139 --> 00:40:37.380
and he suddenly whips out a grenade that will destroy what the

983
00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:39.179
entire galaxy or something.

984
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.039
Well, are you standing over the eye of harmony?

985
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:43.079
Oh, maybe that's it.

986
00:40:43.139 --> 00:40:44.159
Yeah, yeah.

987
00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:46.500
But it could blow up the whole galaxy.

988
00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:50.940
And so the stakes are suddenly massively increased for no reason

989
00:40:50.940 --> 00:40:53.099
and with no effort at all.

990
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:56.519
We just get told that we could take over the universe with this

991
00:40:56.519 --> 00:41:00.059
gun or we could blow up the galaxy with this small bomb.

992
00:41:00.179 --> 00:41:03.420
You know, and it's attempt to update. 330 in the morning and

993
00:41:03.420 --> 00:41:05.099
they've had a lot of coffee.

994
00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:05.760
Clearly.

995
00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:09.059
I can just about believe it, though, because they've made a lot of

996
00:41:09.059 --> 00:41:12.119
fuss about the key of wrestling and how important it is, how much

997
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:15.119
Barusa doesn't want to give it up, and you know, you would entrust

998
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:16.019
the key to an alien.

999
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.900
I mean, you should shoot someone with just a gun gun.

1000
00:41:18.960 --> 00:41:21.960
You don't need a D-Mat gun that's pan on barbeque.

1001
00:41:22.019 --> 00:41:22.739
It shouldn't have been a gun.

1002
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:25.199
It's just, I think it's it doesn't work.

1003
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:29.280
So both the episode 4 and episode 6 climaxes are poor.

1004
00:41:29.340 --> 00:41:32.219
Which should have been Billy Piper, shouldn't it?

1005
00:41:32.280 --> 00:41:33.239
Instead of a gardener.

1006
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:34.500
She would have been, what, one?

1007
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.000
No, not a foetus.

1008
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:38.639
Do you know what I actually did also think, again, as a boy

1009
00:41:38.639 --> 00:41:40.920
because, and Nathan had mentioned before.

1010
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:42.840
Well, this is one of the ones that was shown pretty much

1011
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:43.739
continuously.

1012
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:46.619
And even during the Davidson era in the 80s, This was one of the

1013
00:41:46.619 --> 00:41:48.900
ones you'd get to see as fillers in between.

1014
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:50.400
Doctor Who was almost year round.

1015
00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:54.780
I thought at the time, why are you building a gun when it should

1016
00:41:54.780 --> 00:41:59.400
be the most precious thing that the doctor could lose or the most

1017
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:03.840
precious thing that the person themselves, if you're going to

1018
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:04.920
which again presages the moment.

1019
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:07.800
But no, as a child, I thought, it should have been Leila.

1020
00:42:07.860 --> 00:42:10.500
Leila is the weapon.

1021
00:42:10.619 --> 00:42:12.360
And now I'm thinking maybe Leila is a child.

1022
00:42:12.420 --> 00:42:15.420
But no, as a boy, I thought, what it gives you is that it actually

1023
00:42:15.420 --> 00:42:18.539
turns the thing you most, but of course, for Tom, it would have

1024
00:42:18.539 --> 00:42:19.260
been his own ego.

1025
00:42:19.320 --> 00:42:21.179
Or a talking cabbage.

1026
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:22.739
Yeah, talking cabbage.

1027
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:25.320
But how interesting if the weapon of choice would have to have

1028
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:28.739
been, and to use it would have been, in this case, it would have

1029
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:32.099
been Leela and integrating kind of in the way we might be seeing

1030
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:34.440
with Armageddon Factor, because I know that's going to go off

1031
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:34.739
well.

1032
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:38.400
The idea of the, of the, of that which you most love is actually

1033
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:39.659
the weapon you must use to.

1034
00:42:39.780 --> 00:42:44.639
And instead of just destroying the Sontarin, what I assumed at the

1035
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:46.980
time, we're 1st seeing it, is that it actually completely

1036
00:42:46.980 --> 00:42:50.039
obliterates that whole period of time that's just come before it.

1037
00:42:50.099 --> 00:42:53.639
So they never actually did invade, they never had a presence on

1038
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:54.239
gallifry.

1039
00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:57.780
The gun actually makes a bubble of time and removes it from the

1040
00:42:57.780 --> 00:42:58.260
continuum.

1041
00:42:58.320 --> 00:42:59.639
Yeah, it's a bit weird.

1042
00:42:59.699 --> 00:43:01.679
It's just the doctor who doesn't remember.

1043
00:43:01.739 --> 00:43:04.380
I mean, I know I praised that a couple of minutes ago and I still

1044
00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:04.860
praised that.

1045
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:06.900
But yeah, it would have been a lot more interesting if just

1046
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:07.920
everyone had forgotten.

1047
00:43:08.219 --> 00:43:11.579
But I thought that was the price of using the weapon as well, is

1048
00:43:11.579 --> 00:43:16.079
that you lose your love, that whom you most love, and you also

1049
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:17.579
forget you ever knew him or her.

1050
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:19.739
I really would have.

1051
00:43:19.739 --> 00:43:21.659
Did you think anything like that as a boy when you were older?

1052
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.340
No, it's just watching it this time.

1053
00:43:23.579 --> 00:43:26.460
I just thought it was really pedestrian and like those suggestions

1054
00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:28.739
that you come up with a bit more poetic and interesting.

1055
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:31.380
There's something that the show doesn't really do that much during

1056
00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:32.340
the period.

1057
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:36.239
But the solutions that they came up with.

1058
00:43:36.300 --> 00:43:39.300
You know, there's that thing in episode 5 where Calum is pulling

1059
00:43:39.300 --> 00:43:41.820
some leavers and we're told we're in danger.

1060
00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:43.380
You know, they are very good.

1061
00:43:43.440 --> 00:43:49.199
They are very good at creating stakes visually or organically

1062
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:50.460
within the plot.

1063
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:53.880
We just have to be told that we're in danger or told that we've

1064
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:55.079
defeated Vardens.

1065
00:43:55.139 --> 00:43:58.380
That becomes a meta in itself that Douglas Adams really exploits

1066
00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:01.079
and that everyone now said, well, you know, writers now see it as

1067
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:03.960
what a terrific thing that they did so cleverly and wittily, making

1068
00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:04.980
something very ordinary.

1069
00:44:04.980 --> 00:44:05.880
It's an ashtray.

1070
00:44:05.940 --> 00:44:07.260
No, it's not. the key to the universe.

1071
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:09.960
Yeah, yeah, but they're not, well, that's like the key, the

1072
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:13.800
restaurant's key in the death drawer. bloody drawing. next to the

1073
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:14.099
desk.

1074
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:16.679
No one has ever found it in the history of the timeline.

1075
00:44:16.739 --> 00:44:17.760
It's my hair.

1076
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:20.340
No, I think that's so terrible.

1077
00:44:20.340 --> 00:44:21.000
Tremendous.

1078
00:44:21.059 --> 00:44:25.679
But what they're not doing is lampshading the kind of the, the

1079
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:27.420
there must be a word for this trope.

1080
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:31.559
It's like danger that you get told about that you don't see.

1081
00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:33.360
Tell don't show.

1082
00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:34.199
Yeah, yeah.

1083
00:44:34.260 --> 00:44:37.679
It goes back to Lecant's theory mentioning tropes, again, of the

1084
00:44:37.679 --> 00:44:40.980
dissonance of the ostensible threat before it actually occurs.

1085
00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:43.320
So you've got the cadaver in the room before the death.

1086
00:44:43.380 --> 00:44:45.119
No, but I don't think we ever get the death.

1087
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:48.840
I want to call it word peril where you're just told we're in peril

1088
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.059
and everyone goes, oh, goodness, that's terrible.

1089
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:54.000
It's standabout on the Faccardi rug and the cog room set and all

1090
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:54.780
look worried together.

1091
00:44:54.840 --> 00:44:55.800
It's a terrible scene.

1092
00:44:55.860 --> 00:44:58.619
I'll come up with something better the next time it occurs.

1093
00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:00.420
I did what would that be in Latin?

1094
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.219
No, nothing very good.

1095
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:03.360
You know what I mean?

1096
00:45:04.139 --> 00:45:05.940
That's gorgeous.

1097
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.380
I'd buy that if it was a wine.

1098
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.300
That's very Scottish.

1099
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:14.460
I once saw a stage show, which was a drawing room mystery.

1100
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:18.179
And at one point, someone has to get killed on the veranda.

1101
00:45:18.239 --> 00:45:21.239
So all the characters run out and you hear the gunshot and people

1102
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:24.000
say, oh, no, he's been shot.

1103
00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:25.320
And I'm like, really?

1104
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:27.480
You're doing this off stage?

1105
00:45:27.539 --> 00:45:29.699
Oh, you know, it's meant to build suspense.

1106
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.260
It was like, no, they carry the body on straight away.

1107
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:32.340
It's like, what's the point?

1108
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:33.780
There's not even any blood on the body.

1109
00:45:33.840 --> 00:45:34.440
I don't understand.

1110
00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:35.880
So yeah, word peril is very annoying.

1111
00:45:35.940 --> 00:45:38.340
Can I talk about some of the things I like about the story?

1112
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:39.539
Yeah, I do.

1113
00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:40.139
I do like it.

1114
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:42.420
Yeah, we do. we do, don't we?

1115
00:45:42.539 --> 00:45:43.260
Yeah, generally.

1116
00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:46.260
I think we've talked about things we like in the 1st 2 episodes

1117
00:45:46.260 --> 00:45:47.579
and the 2nd 2 episodes.

1118
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:52.619
And really in that last 2 episodes, I love the travelog around the

1119
00:45:52.619 --> 00:45:53.280
TARDIS.

1120
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.179
I love using industrial spaces.

1121
00:45:57.239 --> 00:45:57.900
Did you at the time?

1122
00:45:57.960 --> 00:45:59.159
Did you as a lad?

1123
00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:01.199
Yeah, yeah, I really did.

1124
00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:04.980
It's something Rod picked up on when we watched it through, again

1125
00:46:04.980 --> 00:46:08.699
in that, yes, if the TARDIS can be anything.

1126
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:11.219
Why can't this area look like an industrial swimming pool?

1127
00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:12.840
Why can't that area look like a hospital?

1128
00:46:12.900 --> 00:46:14.519
And I love the fact...

1129
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:15.420
Because it's depressing?

1130
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:16.920
I don't find it.

1131
00:46:16.920 --> 00:46:18.480
Is the TARDIS in a fug this season?

1132
00:46:18.539 --> 00:46:20.219
Is it just in a bad mood?

1133
00:46:20.280 --> 00:46:24.119
I think there's a lot of just, again, playing out the running

1134
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:24.480
time.

1135
00:46:24.539 --> 00:46:25.380
Do you know what I mean?

1136
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.900
There is that. it's done so stylishly.

1137
00:46:27.960 --> 00:46:28.500
That's the thing.

1138
00:46:28.559 --> 00:46:30.780
You know, you get that conversation about deja vu.

1139
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:31.980
David, David.

1140
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:32.579
Same thing again.

1141
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.820
I know the starter's like the back of my hand, Doctor. front of

1142
00:46:35.820 --> 00:46:36.300
your eyes.

1143
00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:38.340
That's a very Tom and Louise thing, yeah.

1144
00:46:38.400 --> 00:46:41.099
Well, it is something that they eventually becomes the kind of

1145
00:46:41.099 --> 00:46:44.340
default mode for the Williams era.

1146
00:46:44.579 --> 00:46:48.780
We can't afford to not have a lot of time just walking around

1147
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:51.420
these brick corridors, so we'll at least be fun about it.

1148
00:46:51.480 --> 00:46:54.420
I just wish they'd gone to Oxford and film somewhere around

1149
00:46:54.420 --> 00:46:57.900
actually in some sandstone corridors in September.

1150
00:46:57.960 --> 00:46:59.219
I just, it just doesn't feel tart.

1151
00:46:59.340 --> 00:47:02.280
It is an old mental hospital and it feels as miserable as that

1152
00:47:02.280 --> 00:47:02.760
really was.

1153
00:47:02.820 --> 00:47:06.960
But I don't find it miserable, but I do find it unsettling.

1154
00:47:07.380 --> 00:47:12.420
And they've already commented that, you know, Kelner's been

1155
00:47:12.420 --> 00:47:14.579
interfering with the interior dimensions and the doctor has to

1156
00:47:14.579 --> 00:47:15.420
take something offline.

1157
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:20.400
So, you know, even though it's very interesting, you do kind of go

1158
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:22.019
oh, I see.

1159
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:25.559
I think something's wrong with the TARDIS and you get that feeling

1160
00:47:25.559 --> 00:47:26.400
of wrongness.

1161
00:47:26.460 --> 00:47:30.059
So, yeah, it's taking the word peril of, we'll be thrown into a

1162
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:34.860
black star and giving us a subtle visual effect on it.

1163
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.619
And, you know, yeah, the doctor can't find his way around.

1164
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:39.719
Is that because the doctor's being absent-minded or is that

1165
00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:41.280
because there's something wrong with the TARDIS?

1166
00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:44.159
And then you get that crappy art gallery with the Venus de Milo

1167
00:47:44.159 --> 00:47:45.059
with the...

1168
00:47:45.059 --> 00:47:45.960
We know they're the real ones.

1169
00:47:45.960 --> 00:47:46.980
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1170
00:47:46.980 --> 00:47:49.860
With the with the plaster join down the side.

1171
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:53.460
But yeah, is the button to activate the Venus to Milo?

1172
00:47:53.519 --> 00:47:54.239
Is it in her backside?

1173
00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:54.840
I think it is.

1174
00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:57.780
It's kind of on her flank.

1175
00:47:57.780 --> 00:47:59.639
In Jabalite.

1176
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:00.780
In Jabalite. right.

1177
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:04.679
She was actually the excellent city in previous life.

1178
00:48:04.739 --> 00:48:06.300
She's just been transposed.

1179
00:48:06.420 --> 00:48:07.920
There is life after death and doctor.

1180
00:48:07.980 --> 00:48:10.320
And you know, with all the stairs and whatnot, you actually get a

1181
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:14.699
feeling of going up and down and in different dimensions as well.

1182
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:16.619
Could it have been achieved better?

1183
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:17.340
Yes.

1184
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:18.659
Visually, I think so.

1185
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:20.219
Is it achieved very well?

1186
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:21.420
Yes, I think so.

1187
00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:27.000
And I think it marries very well then with admittedly the padding

1188
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:29.760
in the dialogue, but it's padding performed by actors you're

1189
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:30.480
really enjoying.

1190
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:35.880
The highlight of it is Barusa, having a cocktail with a crazy

1191
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:39.840
straw, and reading the report that the Titanic sunk, and the

1192
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:41.579
doctor looking really, really guilty.

1193
00:48:41.699 --> 00:48:43.739
It had nothing to do with that.

1194
00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:46.260
I love the bathroom.

1195
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:47.579
I think it's spectacular.

1196
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.719
It certainly puts the swimming pool in the sky in Paradise Towers

1197
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:54.000
in proper perspective.

1198
00:48:54.059 --> 00:48:55.079
It's lovely.

1199
00:48:55.139 --> 00:48:57.780
And the other thing that really gets me about it.

1200
00:48:57.840 --> 00:49:00.300
I think we may have watched Invasion in Time around the time that

1201
00:49:00.300 --> 00:49:02.340
Journey to the centre of the Tartars went out.

1202
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:03.659
And it's like, you know what?

1203
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:08.340
In 1977, we can have this really fun, okay, not perfect trip

1204
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:11.940
around the Tartars, achieved by going to these disused buildings

1205
00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:15.119
and making it look a bit rundown, making it look lived in.

1206
00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:18.119
In journey to the centre of the Tatus, we get a bunch of corridors

1207
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:19.739
that look the same in a few books on a shelf.

1208
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:24.119
It looks very Star Trek next gen and the budget difficult years of

1209
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:24.960
next gen too.

1210
00:49:25.019 --> 00:49:27.059
Yeah, no, the journey to the centre of time.

1211
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:30.000
It's journey to centre the TARDIS is, again.

1212
00:49:30.059 --> 00:49:31.920
I mean, that's the thing.

1213
00:49:32.039 --> 00:49:35.940
This story has great acting, fun dialogue.

1214
00:49:36.059 --> 00:49:40.079
A plot that works, which we haven't always had this year.

1215
00:49:40.139 --> 00:49:41.280
Surprisingly.

1216
00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:42.360
Does it?

1217
00:49:42.420 --> 00:49:44.940
Or is it just that we love the bits and pieces and forgive the

1218
00:49:44.940 --> 00:49:45.539
plot overall?

1219
00:49:45.599 --> 00:49:48.480
Well, the thing is, even when we've had criticisms of the plot

1220
00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:52.079
like, it has to end with a gun, it's still like, that is a logical

1221
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:52.679
conclusion.

1222
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:54.059
It's just a bit disappointing.

1223
00:49:54.119 --> 00:49:58.139
It's not like underworld where we're like, what are these gold rod

1224
00:49:58.139 --> 00:50:02.219
things and why should we care and why are you a giant gold penis

1225
00:50:02.219 --> 00:50:03.300
and...

1226
00:50:03.300 --> 00:50:06.599
Yeah, why are those guys?

1227
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:11.340
I mean, yeah, is this a Sean Connery bondfinger.com film gone

1228
00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:11.699
wrong?

1229
00:50:11.760 --> 00:50:12.239
I don't know.

1230
00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:15.000
It's got interesting visuals.

1231
00:50:15.059 --> 00:50:19.500
It's got a plot that whips along at a fair pace because you're

1232
00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:21.000
constantly changing up the threat.

1233
00:50:21.059 --> 00:50:26.280
And for better or for worse, it's got a memorable ending with a

1234
00:50:26.280 --> 00:50:29.280
companion departure scene, which, even if it's not written very

1235
00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:30.599
well, is performed very well.

1236
00:50:30.599 --> 00:50:34.559
And that bit at the end when Leila asks canine, will he be

1237
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:34.920
lonely?

1238
00:50:34.980 --> 00:50:38.460
insufficient data mistress, and they both bow their heads

1239
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:39.539
simultaneously.

1240
00:50:39.599 --> 00:50:42.719
That could have been mawkish, but instead it's very sweet.

1241
00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:44.460
There's a lot going for this story.

1242
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.039
You know, it's not a perfect season ender.

1243
00:50:47.099 --> 00:50:48.480
It's not Planet of the Spiders.

1244
00:50:48.539 --> 00:50:49.980
It's not the Green Death, certainly.

1245
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:53.460
But I think it's better than the Damons and the Time Monster.

1246
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.480
It gives me as much as it takes away.

1247
00:50:57.539 --> 00:51:03.900
So in the end, I'm left with a slight surfeit of joy, which is

1248
00:51:03.900 --> 00:51:07.440
that which are the principal players, as much as I think that

1249
00:51:07.440 --> 00:51:09.239
Chris Tranchill did his best.

1250
00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:10.380
He doesn't really win me.

1251
00:51:10.440 --> 00:51:13.019
Isn't he exactly the same person who turns up in Shada, also

1252
00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:14.639
playing cruise, or does it just feel as if?

1253
00:51:15.059 --> 00:51:16.139
Daniel Hill.

1254
00:51:16.139 --> 00:51:17.159
Yeah, it's just bookending.

1255
00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:20.280
It's the same blandness in beige corduroy. has been in it before.

1256
00:51:20.340 --> 00:51:24.239
Yes, he was in the faceless ones where he was possibly admired by

1257
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:24.960
Joe Orton.

1258
00:51:25.019 --> 00:51:26.400
Ah...

1259
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:31.079
Weren't we all...

1260
00:51:31.139 --> 00:51:31.860
Just.

1261
00:51:32.219 --> 00:51:34.980
So Jenny Laird awards.

1262
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:36.059
I might go first.

1263
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.239
Uh, and my journey later waters for Dick Coles.

1264
00:51:39.300 --> 00:51:43.260
I don't know who that is Dick Coles was the designer of

1265
00:51:43.260 --> 00:51:43.980
underworld.

1266
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:48.360
And my question for him, as I shouted last week, why brown?

1267
00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:51.000
Why is everything brown?

1268
00:51:51.059 --> 00:51:53.699
Was there a sale on brown paint or something, Dick?

1269
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:56.219
Well, they did call it Mission Brown in the 70s and yes, everything

1270
00:51:56.219 --> 00:51:58.559
was dark brown in the 70s. was there.

1271
00:51:58.619 --> 00:52:00.900
Yeah, the thing is, this story isn't in the 70s.

1272
00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:03.780
It was also the orange, and it was also a lime green.

1273
00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.000
We didn't get any of those other accent notes, did we?

1274
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:06.659
Exactly.

1275
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:08.219
Lime green caves.

1276
00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:08.760
There you go.

1277
00:52:08.820 --> 00:52:10.260
Nathan, the ice cream.

1278
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:10.679
Okay.

1279
00:52:10.739 --> 00:52:14.099
You know, I want to shrink away from being too obvious, but I'm

1280
00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:14.699
not going to.

1281
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:19.380
I don't think this is a good season, and I think I said before

1282
00:52:19.380 --> 00:52:22.440
that it's probably the worst season of the 1970s.

1283
00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:27.360
Things start to go really wrong on the design front and that

1284
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:30.360
starts with invisible enemy, but, you know, is really, really

1285
00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:31.860
obvious in underworld.

1286
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:37.380
But I do think that probably the most puzzling creative choice is

1287
00:52:37.380 --> 00:52:42.900
choosing to give a paycheque to Bob Baker and Dave Martin, who

1288
00:52:42.900 --> 00:52:46.980
wrote two good per twee stories, and since then have been just

1289
00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:49.079
turning in absolute rubbish.

1290
00:52:49.139 --> 00:52:54.300
And I can't think of a single good thing to say about any of their

1291
00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:56.159
stories for Tom Baker.

1292
00:52:56.219 --> 00:52:57.059
They're terrible.

1293
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:58.500
Get rid of them.

1294
00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:02.820
It's interesting to hear you talk about design like that.

1295
00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:06.360
I thought I was the only one that really, you know, took it as my

1296
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:09.840
first point of contact with a story, but it is interesting to hear

1297
00:53:09.840 --> 00:53:13.559
you say that because it's obviously it is that important. certainly

1298
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:14.340
in this season.

1299
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:17.820
I don't think story wise, it's that bad, and I think Louise does a

1300
00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:21.659
terrific job as a companion and with Tom, and even the conflict

1301
00:53:21.659 --> 00:53:25.320
between Dr. and Leila, which is largely driven by, as we've said

1302
00:53:25.320 --> 00:53:25.679
by Tom.

1303
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:29.880
Didn't really notice so much as a child watching this, but I

1304
00:53:29.880 --> 00:53:32.639
certainly didn't feel great love for it in the way that I did

1305
00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:35.400
between Sarah Jane and the doctor.

1306
00:53:35.460 --> 00:53:38.760
So it does have an effect on the viewer watching it and the child

1307
00:53:38.760 --> 00:53:39.539
viewer watching it.

1308
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:42.420
Sarah and the doctor aren't particularly affectionate towards each

1309
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:42.960
other, either.

1310
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:47.159
But there's a warmth between the 2 actors, especially when you're

1311
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:49.679
thinking an Android invasion when they're running about on the

1312
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.980
base. and there's just that little moment where they just touches

1313
00:53:52.980 --> 00:53:55.679
her on the shoulder or is that that little closeness of contact.

1314
00:53:55.739 --> 00:53:57.119
There's a rapport.

1315
00:53:57.239 --> 00:53:58.619
Yes, it's not a table wine.

1316
00:53:58.739 --> 00:53:59.579
It's a rapport.

1317
00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:02.159
And it's lovely.

1318
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:03.599
And I just don't get that this time.

1319
00:54:03.599 --> 00:54:04.619
And you do pick up on that.

1320
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:09.059
Yeah, I think my puzzling creative choice, though, in the end

1321
00:54:09.059 --> 00:54:10.800
isn't actually design based.

1322
00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:14.099
I've done this to do this kind of thing with, with, you know

1323
00:54:14.099 --> 00:54:17.880
running projects and time and just having nothing left and having

1324
00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:18.599
to wing it.

1325
00:54:18.599 --> 00:54:23.519
And the results that go out, there's something about 11th hour

1326
00:54:23.519 --> 00:54:27.659
which can produce moments of great genius, such as the barusa

1327
00:54:27.659 --> 00:54:30.360
doctor dialogue scenes, innovasion of time.

1328
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:33.539
On the whole, does it leave a satisfying?

1329
00:54:33.659 --> 00:54:36.300
I don't know that the eggs quite were beaten well enough and I

1330
00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:39.960
don't think it's quite risen to purloin MacArthur Park.

1331
00:54:40.079 --> 00:54:42.659
And it doesn't quite get there.

1332
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.699
My person and creative choice actually has to go back to

1333
00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:45.420
Hinchcliffe.

1334
00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:48.179
I actually don't think it's Williamsport because we get to see

1335
00:54:48.179 --> 00:54:51.000
later on what Williams does when he gets a whole season to

1336
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:51.300
himself.

1337
00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:53.940
And even though there may be curious choices, which we'll hear

1338
00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:56.460
about amongst the 3 of you for season 16.

1339
00:54:56.639 --> 00:55:00.179
I do think it comes back to Hinchcliffe just taking so much of the

1340
00:55:00.179 --> 00:55:04.679
budget that they were really left, and it's not really William's

1341
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:06.539
fault he didn't have enough time to get this together.

1342
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:08.039
So maybe the BBC as well.

1343
00:55:08.099 --> 00:55:09.360
So yeah, my choice is.

1344
00:55:09.420 --> 00:55:11.639
Inchcliff, you did a lovely job, but look what you left for your

1345
00:55:11.639 --> 00:55:12.179
successor.

1346
00:55:12.239 --> 00:55:15.420
There's a couple of things I'm just going to mention briefly.

1347
00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:21.000
There is big finishes, Dr. and Leila Audio Adventures, which are

1348
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:21.659
wonderful.

1349
00:55:21.719 --> 00:55:23.219
Are they in the same studio?

1350
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:26.340
Yes, yeah, they work together. they work together great now.

1351
00:55:26.400 --> 00:55:28.139
Yeah, it's beautiful.

1352
00:55:28.260 --> 00:55:30.480
Louise Jensen has said, look, you know, we've discussed everything

1353
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:31.440
that happened back then.

1354
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:33.960
I told Tom he was a Pratt and he's wearing it.

1355
00:55:34.019 --> 00:55:35.340
Yeah, pretty much he.

1356
00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:36.659
Yeah, is.

1357
00:55:37.079 --> 00:55:40.860
One I'm going to single out in particular because it's quite

1358
00:55:40.860 --> 00:55:43.739
interesting, given regards to what you just said, Richard.

1359
00:55:43.800 --> 00:55:48.599
In the 4th Dr. Lost Stories box set, there is the foe from the

1360
00:55:48.599 --> 00:55:48.780
future.

1361
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:52.440
Yes, I just listened to this one too, which, of course, was meant

1362
00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:55.199
to be Talons of Wing Chang. it's Robert Banks Stewart original

1363
00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:58.559
script adapted by, I think, John Dorney.

1364
00:55:58.619 --> 00:56:02.460
And there is also a story called The Valley of Fear by Philip

1365
00:56:02.460 --> 00:56:07.679
Hinchcliffe, which was in consideration for either the Sunmakers

1366
00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:10.980
or Underworld slot, and that's been adapted by Jonathan Morris.

1367
00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:15.539
But what Jonathan Morris has tried to do in that script is write

1368
00:56:15.539 --> 00:56:20.039
it in such a way that it's a Philip Hinchcliffe idea as produced

1369
00:56:20.039 --> 00:56:20.940
by Graham Williams.

1370
00:56:21.300 --> 00:56:27.360
But my actual pick, you know, I was just mentioning those.

1371
00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:33.780
My actual pick is a new series of novels called Lethbridge

1372
00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:34.260
Stewart.

1373
00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:39.539
These are spearheaded by Andy Frankermelon, who is the author of

1374
00:56:39.539 --> 00:56:42.960
the Doctor Who, the Legacy series, and also the author of the

1375
00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:48.719
Seeker series, and one of the creators and editors of the Space

1376
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:54.659
1889 series, which is a steampunk sci-fi series.

1377
00:56:54.719 --> 00:57:00.300
This is a series of 4 novels, which are in the process of being

1378
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:06.119
released, and they are set for Lethbridge Stewart between the web

1379
00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:07.679
of fear and the invasion.

1380
00:57:08.099 --> 00:57:11.519
So it's about the formation of the unit and what have you.

1381
00:57:11.579 --> 00:57:15.179
So there is The Forgotten Sun by Andy Frankomallan.

1382
00:57:15.239 --> 00:57:19.739
There is the schizoid Earth by David A. McKinty, which...

1383
00:57:19.739 --> 00:57:21.239
I liked his, I liked his virgin.

1384
00:57:21.239 --> 00:57:22.440
New adventures. yeah Yeah.

1385
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.739
There is, and this is the reason I mentioning it for season 17

1386
00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:27.179
Beast of Fang Rock.

1387
00:57:27.719 --> 00:57:29.760
Oh, no.

1388
00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:32.940
By Andy Franko Allen and Terence Dix.

1389
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:33.900
Wow.

1390
00:57:35.340 --> 00:57:39.960
And legend says that the Beast of Fang Rock will return.

1391
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:42.719
And Travers is out to discover the truth.

1392
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:46.260
And there is a final novel in the series called Mutually Assured

1393
00:57:46.260 --> 00:57:47.940
Domination by Nick Walters.

1394
00:57:48.539 --> 00:57:51.179
We're back to Andrew and Leila, aren't we?

1395
00:57:51.239 --> 00:57:52.320
Yep that's right.

1396
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:57.960
You can buy each of those novels online and we will include a link

1397
00:57:57.960 --> 00:57:58.500
for those.

1398
00:57:58.559 --> 00:58:00.659
You can buy them individually or in a bundle.

1399
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:01.739
Cool.

1400
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:02.940
That's excellent.

1401
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:07.500
Well, I've scored the bleeding obvious taro card, Miss Taro.

1402
00:58:07.559 --> 00:58:10.440
Again, I've already prefaced it.

1403
00:58:10.500 --> 00:58:11.760
It's thank you, Gary Russell.

1404
00:58:11.820 --> 00:58:15.840
I really, really like the big finish Gallifry series.

1405
00:58:15.900 --> 00:58:18.659
And I know we keep going back to Big Finish and there's a whole

1406
00:58:18.659 --> 00:58:19.559
lot of other things going on.

1407
00:58:19.619 --> 00:58:22.079
So thank you, Brendan, for mentioning those because there's things

1408
00:58:22.079 --> 00:58:22.980
we probably don't discover.

1409
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.079
I really didn't want to listen to them.

1410
00:58:25.139 --> 00:58:27.599
I just happened to have them and I bought them and downloaded them

1411
00:58:27.599 --> 00:58:29.639
you know, and all the rest of it and thought, oh, you know, I'm as

1412
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:33.000
much like Nathan as Gallifree was a one idea thing that didn't

1413
00:58:33.000 --> 00:58:35.159
really work in the original series, except in a few moments.

1414
00:58:35.219 --> 00:58:36.360
But no, it really does.

1415
00:58:36.420 --> 00:58:39.719
And it works because it's got fantastic performers being really

1416
00:58:39.719 --> 00:58:43.139
well written for by clever people, whom, you know, we're lucky

1417
00:58:43.139 --> 00:58:45.360
enough, some of them, that we've met and some of them are our

1418
00:58:45.360 --> 00:58:47.760
friends, and we're fortunate being this age and having grown up

1419
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:48.719
with this stuff.

1420
00:58:48.780 --> 00:58:52.079
But if you're a new listener or you haven't had the, you know, the

1421
00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.420
luck of being able to go to conventions and meet these guys.

1422
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:57.480
But Gary does a beautiful job on it as editor.

1423
00:58:57.539 --> 00:59:01.139
Linda Bellingham is terrific as the inquisitor and she's just

1424
00:59:01.139 --> 00:59:02.639
awful and venal and fantastic.

1425
00:59:02.699 --> 00:59:04.380
And Louise, is in them.

1426
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:06.840
Lala is superb as Romana.

1427
00:59:06.900 --> 00:59:10.440
And of course, I won't spoil how, but they have Mary Tam is also

1428
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:14.460
returns, but we were lucky enough to get her, and there's also a

1429
00:59:14.460 --> 00:59:18.000
recasting of Romana that comes up, and I won't say anymore if you

1430
00:59:18.000 --> 00:59:22.019
haven't heard it, but it's, they really are good fun, and they're

1431
00:59:22.019 --> 00:59:22.679
darkly done.

1432
00:59:22.739 --> 00:59:25.380
They do feel very much in the spirit of Chris Boucher.

1433
00:59:25.440 --> 00:59:26.880
They also feel quite period.

1434
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:30.719
There's lots of it that's kind of BBC Shakespeare, I Claudius

1435
00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:32.699
Blake 7 era writing.

1436
00:59:32.760 --> 00:59:34.800
Would you agree, Brendan, if you've listened to it.

1437
00:59:34.860 --> 00:59:36.480
Oh, yeah, I think they're absolutely wonderful.

1438
00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:39.599
It's a little bit Doctor Who, but it's also a little bit Babylon

1439
00:59:39.599 --> 00:59:39.780
5.

1440
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:41.519
Yeah, bad B5.

1441
00:59:41.699 --> 00:59:41.940
Thank you.

1442
00:59:42.059 --> 00:59:43.679
It's very JMS, isn't it?

1443
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:45.119
Really, in his style of writing.

1444
00:59:45.179 --> 00:59:46.320
Huge arcing.

1445
00:59:46.440 --> 00:59:49.320
A little bit west wing in terms of the political intrigue.

1446
00:59:49.380 --> 00:59:52.139
Green wing, yes, a little bit green wing, if you've ever watched

1447
00:59:52.139 --> 00:59:52.739
that, yes.

1448
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.960
That would also be my pick of the week.

1449
00:59:55.019 --> 00:59:57.780
That's got Michelle Gomez, Boys and Girls, as...

1450
00:59:57.840 --> 00:59:59.760
Playing really the same part, yeah.

1451
00:59:59.820 --> 01:00:01.800
Have you seen Greenwing?

1452
01:00:01.860 --> 01:00:04.619
No, I have a friend who keeps telling me, friendly.

1453
01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:05.340
We put a link on.

1454
01:00:05.400 --> 01:00:06.179
Yeah, we can.

1455
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:07.260
Fred of the podcast.

1456
01:00:07.320 --> 01:00:09.840
James Farrow keeps telling me to watch Green Wing.

1457
01:00:09.900 --> 01:00:14.460
I've seen Michelle Gomez quite recently playing Martin Thatcher in

1458
01:00:14.460 --> 01:00:15.599
Psycho Bitches.

1459
01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:17.760
Is he available?

1460
01:00:17.820 --> 01:00:19.440
It's very hard to get.

1461
01:00:19.500 --> 01:00:20.400
I only seen it with Jones.

1462
01:00:20.460 --> 01:00:20.880
Yeah, yeah.

1463
01:00:20.940 --> 01:00:22.619
Yeah, it's it is really good.

1464
01:00:22.679 --> 01:00:25.019
And Michelle Gomez is in it a fair amount.

1465
01:00:25.019 --> 01:00:26.340
Just playing really herself.

1466
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:28.440
Well, I've only ever seen her playing the same part.

1467
01:00:28.500 --> 01:00:31.679
You saw the photo of her with the 2 action figures on her

1468
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:32.039
shoulders.

1469
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:34.079
She's really cool.

1470
01:00:34.139 --> 01:00:37.739
I'm a huge fan I have a pick of the week, but it's really

1471
01:00:37.739 --> 01:00:39.659
unspectacular compared to yours.

1472
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:43.380
I've been walking in the morning and listening to Doctor Who

1473
01:00:43.380 --> 01:00:44.340
novelisations.

1474
01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:45.900
I recommended this as a part...

1475
01:00:46.019 --> 01:00:47.400
This great cottage in the park.

1476
01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:49.619
No, that's not what I'm going to recommend.

1477
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:52.019
So it's like, no, it's asking to this.

1478
01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:53.280
Oh, okay.

1479
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:57.960
I'm going to recommend a novel that I never read when I was a kid

1480
01:00:57.960 --> 01:00:59.579
a novelisation that I never had.

1481
01:00:59.639 --> 01:01:01.079
I think it was released reasonably late.

1482
01:01:01.139 --> 01:01:06.659
It's the rescue by Ian Martha, who it's his last novelisation and

1483
01:01:06.659 --> 01:01:11.099
it's dedicated to him and it's read by Maureen O'Brien.

1484
01:01:11.159 --> 01:01:13.739
And we said at the time that the rescue was really just a great

1485
01:01:13.739 --> 01:01:16.380
vehicle to introduce Maureen O'Brien as an actor.

1486
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:20.159
It was the 1st time we ever had a new companion since the series

1487
01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:20.880
began.

1488
01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:24.780
And so it was a little story crafted by David Whittaker to give

1489
01:01:24.780 --> 01:01:28.199
her, you know, a chance to really show her Chops as an actor.

1490
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:31.079
And Maureen hasn't lost it at all.

1491
01:01:31.139 --> 01:01:32.639
It's a wonderful reading.

1492
01:01:32.699 --> 01:01:34.019
She does a great Barbara.

1493
01:01:34.139 --> 01:01:35.639
She does a great Vicky.

1494
01:01:35.699 --> 01:01:39.179
It's Ian Marta, so the pros is more sort of interesting and

1495
01:01:39.179 --> 01:01:41.159
sophisticated than Terrence Dix.

1496
01:01:41.219 --> 01:01:44.820
And the whole thing was just really, really great fun.

1497
01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:46.739
I really enjoyed it, so I can recommend it.

1498
01:01:46.800 --> 01:01:51.239
A lot of these books are on Audible.com, So that's where I get

1499
01:01:51.239 --> 01:01:53.460
them, but you can get them on iTunes and things as well.

1500
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:12.599
Well, dear listener, that is all the time we have for the invasion

1501
01:02:12.599 --> 01:02:14.820
of time and for season 15 as a whole.

1502
01:02:14.940 --> 01:02:18.420
Nathan and I will be back next week, along with Todd, to talk

1503
01:02:18.420 --> 01:02:22.079
about the Grybos operation, or rebos operation, depending on

1504
01:02:22.079 --> 01:02:26.159
whether you're from the south or the north, and begin the key to

1505
01:02:26.159 --> 01:02:26.699
time season.

1506
01:02:26.820 --> 01:02:30.119
Richard will rejoin us for Destiny of the Daleks in six weeks

1507
01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:30.300
time.

1508
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:33.360
I'm knitting a very long white scarf as we spin.

1509
01:02:33.659 --> 01:02:38.820
My image on the on our who we are things is the scarf I made for

1510
01:02:38.820 --> 01:02:41.460
myself when I was 14 in my homemade scarf.

1511
01:02:41.519 --> 01:02:43.619
So I'll do a white one for Destiny of the Darlings.

1512
01:02:43.679 --> 01:02:44.219
Oh, excellent.

1513
01:02:44.340 --> 01:02:47.159
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight

1514
01:02:47.159 --> 01:02:51.119
through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter

1515
01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:52.679
over on bondfinger.com.

1516
01:02:52.739 --> 01:02:55.500
We have variety of Sean Connery commentaries available.

1517
01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:59.219
You can also find that Bond Finger on Facebook and iTunes and Bond

1518
01:02:59.219 --> 01:03:00.480
Finger cast on Twitter.

1519
01:03:00.539 --> 01:03:02.639
Until we see you next time.

1520
01:03:02.699 --> 01:03:05.820
May all your transduction barriers keep out all alien invaders.

1521
01:03:05.880 --> 01:03:06.780
Thank you very much and good night.

1522
01:03:06.900 --> 01:03:07.559
Good night.

1523
01:03:07.619 --> 01:03:08.340
Thank you, everyone.

1524
01:03:10.019 --> 01:03:14.519
That was Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones

1525
01:03:14.519 --> 01:03:15.480
and Richard Stone.

1526
01:03:15.539 --> 01:03:19.320
This episode, Timothy Dalton's pyjamas, was recorded on October

1527
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:20.820
the 11th, 2015.

1528
01:03:21.059 --> 01:03:23.940
The next episode will be released on December the 6th.

1529
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:27.420
We respectfully dedicate this episode to Anthony Reid, script

1530
01:03:27.420 --> 01:03:30.480
editor of Doctor Who and writer of several stories, including the

1531
01:03:30.480 --> 01:03:31.199
invasion of time.

1532
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.860
Oh, that is not staying there.

1533
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:44.099
You need to you need to uncleanse.

1534
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:46.860
There you go.

1535
01:03:46.920 --> 01:03:48.119
Tag of the season.

1536
01:03:48.179 --> 01:03:48.960
Oh please.

1537
01:03:49.079 --> 01:03:50.460
Okay.