WEBVTT

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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:05:35

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to the latest episode of Flight

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Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast with a slightly

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chumbly motion.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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Richard.

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And we're back for Doctor Who season three.

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The longest series of Doctor Who ever produced.

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You're about to find her out. 45 episodes.

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So, look, we're just going to jump straight in with Galaxy 4.

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Galaxy 4.

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So the 1st story of series three, like Planet of Giants, it was

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produced with the previous season and held over, and it was the

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last production block to feature Verity Lambert, because the next

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story was made back to back with it.

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It's the 2nd story featuring the team of the Dr. Vicki and

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Steven.

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And sort of on the surface, at least, plays with the whole theme

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and idea of beauty and the beast.

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Yeah, because you've got the Dravans, who are evil space dusty

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Springfields. very topical at the time. and you've got the rills

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who are giant sort of warthog seal creatures and the anti-wizard

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of Oz seen through the same screen effect that the wizard was seen

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in the eponymous film.

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Yes, yeah.

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Ms. Garland.

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This starts a trend this season of stories which are based on a

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central idea.

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So the central idea here is fair is foul and foul is fair.

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But the real question then becomes, does it evolve beyond that

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into its own story?

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It becomes very 60s in this season.

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It stops looking at being entirely modern and fresh and new and

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starts finally, not finally, but I think more strongly looking at

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what's going on around it culturally, what's going on in England

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what's popular, in other words, and really starting to just be a

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part of that.

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And you might argue that it becomes a little less of what it is

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itself and a little more of just what's going on around it.

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You, I mean, you say that happens with the introduction of Vicky

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really.

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That's the 1st bit, but that's all.

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That's in isolation.

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So that's quite interesting, a thing to happen, and more in

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O'Brien's just so good that, you know, the only thing I've said

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before about the introduction of the Vicki character is that it's

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just a shame that the notions of the character behind Susan were

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not explored or were just truncated.

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But Vicky's terrific.

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She's just a very received construction of a character.

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Whereas Susan was a totally different thing that could have been

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anything if we'd allowed it to go in whatever direction.

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It was alien.

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We didn't know what was going to happen.

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We know exactly what Vicky is.

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Vicky is entirely contemporaneous and entirely outside.

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She's from another TV station, another TV show that's been dropped

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into Doctor Who's TV show.

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Rather than being sort of very alien or very futury sort of thing

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they make her, say, futury things, like we've said before, but, um

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yeah, can feel the word tropes, moving, somewhere, sort of

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inexorably towards this conversation. away behind my ears.

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This season for me, I might just jump in quickly, see what you all

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think, is the one where you get that clash.

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I was gonna say it later, but you brought it up early on.

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It's the season where, to me, camp, which had a slightly different

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definition to the one we use for camp now.

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It's, um, they didn't have a term but such for post-modernism in

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the way that we use it.

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So camp actually meant an analysis or a subjective look of the

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text or a subjective look of the world and of life, turn it

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halfway on its head and how to laugh at it.

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Pretty much what this season is doing is bringing that kind of

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sensibility, which was very much at the forefront of drama and

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film and writing at the mid 60s for reasons that we'll go into. was

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what was happening in the world at the time.

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But that notion of camp comes straight into what straight

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narrative would be.

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So, whereas Doctor Who was looking at itself and what it can

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develop and be as a modernist drama and really be freaky and

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subversive and surprising.

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It's now kind of starting to look back in and onto itself.

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I guess that just happens with a new producer.

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I'd like to throw in here the seminal essay where this is coming

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from with Susan Sontag's notes on camp, which came out in 1964.

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And he's really funny and kind of also a bit, oh, I mean, she was

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a queer writer, although she didn't come out for years.

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She was only, I mean, Liebovitz is the famous photographer's

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partner for many, many years.

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So her view is very much New York centric, cool, removed.

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I think Warhol's factory, but with an amazing amount of

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intellectualism thrown onto it, and she was very much big on the

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French theorists. anyway.

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The whole thing of culture turning itself around kind of like a

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snake biting its own tail and looking at itself is exactly what

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Doctor Who does this season and very much starting with this story

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with the dravers.

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So you're saying a story full of women with blonde beehives and

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sequined eyebrows.

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Well, look, you could stretch it that far if you really have to

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push it.

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But the drivers were written as male characters.

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And it was actually verity who was who made 2 suggestions right at

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the end with her with her line of notes was that how about you

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turn them into girls?

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And they were dusty Springfield Cindy dolls.

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Cindy was British answer to Barbie, but she had exactly that

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haircut when she came out and she was wearing almost that little

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outfit.

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It's quite weird with the white lace up boots and the little green

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smock.

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That's a Cindy doll.

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So, yeah, look, we'll find a picture and stick it out.

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It's hard to imagine how it could have worked with with men.

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Well, I think if it was with men, it would just sort of be a very

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standard runaround.

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And having them as female characters, but not rewriting them as

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stereotypical females as we keep coming back to it, like Kathy

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Gale and the Avengers. was just a male part with David crossed out

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and Kathy written in, but no other concessions made to the female

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stereotype.

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And that's what's happened here as well.

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That's a beautiful point, because you know that the other reversal

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was that the Barbara part was written in, and the lines were just

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given to Stephen, which is why he's in the airlock, pulling at his

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cardigan with the girls watching.

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He keeps mingling.

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He's wearing Barbara's wing.

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He's pushing...

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He is backcoming, I think.

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And there's a lovely piece of speed racer, Virgil Tracy back

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combing there.

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Thunderbirds was on.

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Do you reckon John Wiles was because John Wiles was one following

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Barity around on the ship?

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Very much so.

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Do you think he was hanging around off screen, taking notes of

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Stephen in an airlock as a neat way of getting rid of a companion

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you might want to get rid of in a future episode?

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Spoiler.

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It's possible because it's some pretty dark moments in this.

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It's also the 1st time that and the concept of an airlock has been

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used in Doctor Who.

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Because we don't see the airlock in the sensor, right?

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It's a whole new whole episode, just...

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And Peter Purpose sort of complains and says, you know, I played

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an astronaut.

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So you would think that Stephen would know about the dangers of an

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airlock, but now that we actually have the episode back and we can

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see it.

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It's not so much that he doesn't know the dangers of the airlock

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but it's a matter of he's backing away from a room full of people

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with guns.

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He goes for the only door he can get to.

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On the other side of the door is something that'll kill him.

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And the reason he becomes trapped is because of a change in

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pressure.

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So it's not so much Stephen being stupid, which would have been

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quite problematic because, you know, it was written for Barbara.

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I think Barbara would understand the concept of an airlock as well

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and wouldn't get into it unless she had no other choice.

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But yeah, it's the raw reversal. so interesting.

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The females are the protagonists.

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And Stephen is impotent in this because he's playing the girly

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part.

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So thank you, verity for, you know, just making that nice little

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twist because I think this story would have been completely

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cindied all just in its pants without that.

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It would have been immensely dull.

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You know, can I say that?

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Sandafar.

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When Sandifer talks about this, he says it's not really trying, but

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it's, you know, just essentially boring sort of science fiction

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things that are retreaded and that the central conceit is really

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fairly obvious and all of that sort of thing.

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But personally, like, this is one of the ones where I'd listen to

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the audio a lot of times, and I really, really liked it.

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And there's, you know, sweet things like Vicky cutting Stephen's

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hair at the beginning or is that?

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No, that, that, that's further off.

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We're not there yet.

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Oh, okay.

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You sure?

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Yes, I'm sure.

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Yeah, that's mythmakers.

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It is.

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Anyway, um, but it's sort of fun and there's lots of interaction

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and, you know, we get out onto the, onto the planet and um, and

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wander around and things that's that usual sort of exploring

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thing.

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And I just sort of always really enjoyed it and thought it was

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sort of fun and camp.

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But then that, I'm right, aren't I?

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You are.

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This is where she shows us.

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She knows all about ammonia and hairdressing shit.

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She really is a girl of 1964, and she's about to do a big hell of

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Shapiro to him.

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I think it's a bloody big boof all.

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Ah, so she does the backcoming.

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She's really...

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She misses Barbara.

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She's probably been doing Barbara's hair, you know.

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Because I can't imagine what she would do, Ian.

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So she's been doing Barbara's hair and that's why Stephen has the

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backbone.

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This is a really interesting thing that in fact, this is the 1st

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one where we're talking about the camp thing.

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Maybe this is exactly what's going on here.

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Role reversal is integral to camp, to camp sensibilities, swapping

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roles, swapping expectancies.

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You know, he is a she, she is he.

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Get hurt.

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But I guess what I was about to say is, of course, we had the

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discovery of that episode that we mentioned.

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I was just astounded by how great it is.

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I mean, you know, I enjoyed it.

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I didn't think it was, you know, particularly earth shattering, but

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when you actually get to see it, There's just wonderful things, the

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design of the hilarious garden centre design of the real

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spaceship.

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Blop, blop.

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Yes. and they've got the vomp vomp machine that they've borrowed

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from the Dale.

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But it just looks terrific.

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It looks excellent.

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And you know, when you're imagining it in your head, you know, with

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the real looking through the window and all of that sort of

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thing.

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The pictures that you come up with in your head are nowhere near

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as clever as just this those amazing scaffolding things and all of

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that.

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And then the Chumbleys, which look a bit crummy in, bit cakey, a

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bit cakey, actually.

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But I'll explain later.

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Yeah, we didn't really talk about the cake.

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We should get back to it.

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We will get there.

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But the Chumblies are sort of wobbly and, you know, they've got

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little lights under the surface of the thing and they look, they

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look really...

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They're active and twitchy, which you don't see in a photo.

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The scene that sticks in my mind is when the rills agree to send

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the Chumblies to rescue Stephen and Billy is Billy's alone in the

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room with just the Chumblies and the reels.

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So pretty much it's like, right, Billy's alone in a room with a

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puppet and some robots.

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And so when the Chumblies are going out, Billy sort of stands like

249
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a general and points to the door several times.

250
00:12:03.299 --> 00:12:08.639
Go, go. and then runs off himself and it's, you just kind of go.

251
00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:13.559
He has such clout now, and this is, of course, where he starts to

252
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.440
become disenchanted with the program, because all his friends are

253
00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:20.399
going or gone, but he's still so commanding in that scene and so

254
00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:26.159
much going, I'm in a room full of full of tiny robots and a

255
00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:26.639
puppet.

256
00:12:26.700 --> 00:12:28.980
I am going to play this like Hamlet.

257
00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:29.700
God damn it.

258
00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:32.580
And he really sells it.

259
00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:36.659
It is equal parts camp and stirring drama.

260
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.960
Maybe not equal parts for me.

261
00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:44.399
We should mention Brian Hodgson because although, yeah, visually

262
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:45.360
this is really surprising.

263
00:12:45.419 --> 00:12:50.100
We didn't expect to see how lovely this is in all those so many

264
00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:50.460
ways.

265
00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:56.639
But it's the soundscape. you listening to it on audio, you just

266
00:12:56.639 --> 00:12:57.899
get how odd this was.

267
00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:02.340
Never forget, they're looking at tiny screens on a 405 lime TV.

268
00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:05.340
So what you're actually getting is the intimacy through the sound

269
00:13:05.340 --> 00:13:06.000
as much.

270
00:13:06.059 --> 00:13:09.179
And BBC is really, you know, cutting edge at this time on

271
00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:10.320
electronic curtain.

272
00:13:10.620 --> 00:13:14.279
Yeah, no, I mean, it does sound spectacular.

273
00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:18.299
And we kind of knew that for ages, but what was surprising was how

274
00:13:18.299 --> 00:13:19.019
good it looked.

275
00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.200
And, you know, there's other things like Stephanie Bid Me does

276
00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.240
that fabulous 2 camera model.

277
00:13:24.299 --> 00:13:25.740
We have a name, Stephanie Big Beat.

278
00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:27.299
Oh she's amazing.

279
00:13:27.360 --> 00:13:30.600
So that's Maga, the leader of the alien drama.

280
00:13:30.659 --> 00:13:34.320
You haven't mentioned racism yet, have what you... slimy claws to

281
00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:35.399
close around your necks.

282
00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:36.779
Really?

283
00:13:36.779 --> 00:13:37.860
Straight to camera.

284
00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:38.580
Yeah, yeah.

285
00:13:38.639 --> 00:13:40.080
Yeah, to make the lesser drama.

286
00:13:40.080 --> 00:13:40.860
She's right.

287
00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:42.299
Is that the plural?

288
00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:48.120
Yeah, well, they do have a sort of Dalek style xenophobia of, it's

289
00:13:48.120 --> 00:13:49.919
another race. therefore it is out to kill us.

290
00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.360
Yeah, which is really the ethos that Doctor Who adopts as a whole

291
00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:55.860
in the year's time or so.

292
00:13:57.539 --> 00:14:01.139
That brings me back to something I was going to say earlier in

293
00:14:01.139 --> 00:14:03.360
that, you know, it's this whole beauty in the beast story.

294
00:14:03.419 --> 00:14:09.539
But where it sort of turns that around a bit is in the very 1st

295
00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:13.500
scene where the Dravins actually talk to the doctor after they're

296
00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:16.500
back at their ship, we're pretty much told in that 1st scene

297
00:14:16.500 --> 00:14:17.460
actually, they're not very nice people.

298
00:14:17.580 --> 00:14:20.460
You know, they're kind of like, men, what?

299
00:14:20.580 --> 00:14:22.320
Oh, yes, sort of work units.

300
00:14:22.379 --> 00:14:22.799
Yeah, yeah.

301
00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:27.899
Oh, well, we we, we keep some for labour and for other things

302
00:14:27.899 --> 00:14:28.379
presumably.

303
00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:32.039
And then we kill the rest because they just eat our food, you know

304
00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.980
and the doctor's just like, oh, this is terribly interesting.

305
00:14:34.980 --> 00:14:37.919
And Stephen just sort of looks around uncomfortably.

306
00:14:37.980 --> 00:14:42.720
But it already introduces the idea that despite the fact that they

307
00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.100
look beautiful.

308
00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:49.139
They do not have a beautiful culture and they do not have a

309
00:14:49.139 --> 00:14:51.659
culture that we would agree with.

310
00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:56.940
So already by midway through episode one, it's not just your

311
00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:58.440
standard beauty and the beast story.

312
00:14:58.500 --> 00:15:01.139
So it does start to transcend that idea early on.

313
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:05.759
The doctor is reluctant, right, from the beginning to take the

314
00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:11.279
dravins at their word about the reels being evil, you know, like

315
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:14.039
and I think one of them says, oh, but, you know, aren't the reels

316
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:14.820
murderers or something?

317
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:17.100
And he says, no, no, we've only got their word for that.

318
00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:19.019
So he straight away.

319
00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:22.980
And I think when the real says to the doctor, you know, you

320
00:15:22.980 --> 00:15:25.559
wouldn't find our appearance pleasing or something like that.

321
00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:28.919
And he says, we're not, you know, like I'm not a child, you know

322
00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:33.120
so he's kind of turning into the moral centre of the narrative, you

323
00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:36.779
know, from being the guy who might bash a caveman's brains out

324
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:37.379
with a rock.

325
00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:40.860
If he needs to, he's now turned into kind of the moral centre of

326
00:15:40.860 --> 00:15:41.340
the narrative.

327
00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:46.019
And so we can't judge the rules because the doctor's already kind

328
00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:46.919
of refuse to do that.

329
00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:51.240
This is the season where the doctor becomes more and more external

330
00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:52.379
to the narratives?

331
00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:53.279
He just dropped into it.

332
00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:58.019
Well, I, you know, there's, there's this thing where with Barbara

333
00:15:58.019 --> 00:16:00.659
and Ian, they're the main characters.

334
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.360
You know, and the doctors are kind of strange, high concept

335
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:05.759
character off to the site and he exists to get them into trouble

336
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.519
and kind of get them out of trouble, but essentially, it's the

337
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:09.899
story of Ian and Barbara.

338
00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:10.980
And then they go away.

339
00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:16.620
So it's kind of got to be the story of the doctor, except that, um

340
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:19.440
and we're probably getting ahead of ourselves a bit here, they're

341
00:16:19.440 --> 00:16:21.240
going to start putting the doctor into stories that he's really

342
00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.820
not suited to, and then they're going to give him sort of weeks

343
00:16:23.820 --> 00:16:27.240
off and then they're going to kind of ease him out altogether.

344
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:32.279
And so that's one of the reasons why I think this season's a bit

345
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:37.559
of a problem is that the show really needs the doctor to be the

346
00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:41.220
central character now because he's the only member of the original

347
00:16:41.220 --> 00:16:42.720
cast who's still there.

348
00:16:42.779 --> 00:16:46.679
But they kind of want to, they're sick of him and they want to

349
00:16:46.679 --> 00:16:47.159
ease him out.

350
00:16:47.220 --> 00:16:51.720
I like that he takes a step back and becomes more of an observer

351
00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:53.759
in within his own story.

352
00:16:53.820 --> 00:16:54.899
I think it becomes more interesting for that.

353
00:16:54.960 --> 00:16:57.960
This is the 1st time too, I should jump in, where you get the idea

354
00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.740
that he's so concomitant with different visages and different

355
00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:02.220
aspects.

356
00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:05.339
There's that lovely line, is it David Tennant that says, you know

357
00:17:05.339 --> 00:17:06.480
we could regenerate into anything.

358
00:17:06.539 --> 00:17:09.420
We don't know that time lords look like us.

359
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:11.460
It might just be a perceptive field.

360
00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:13.200
It might just be the way we see.

361
00:17:13.259 --> 00:17:16.200
There might actually be a whole other level of being that simply

362
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:19.920
appears in this dimension as humanoids because most of this

363
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.940
universe appeal or these few several galaxies that we know appear

364
00:17:23.940 --> 00:17:25.259
to be largely humanoid.

365
00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:28.799
Well, they have to cast humans to play him. to help as well.

366
00:17:28.859 --> 00:17:31.079
But this is also within the narrative.

367
00:17:31.140 --> 00:17:34.319
I'd like to think that Billy recognises at this point the doctor

368
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.920
recognises that the continuance is the energy of life, not merely

369
00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:38.759
the appearance of it.

370
00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:42.119
So, no, I like, I like, was it tenant or was it...

371
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:44.519
No, don't you remember when Christopher Eckleston's about to

372
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:45.119
regenerate?

373
00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:46.259
He says he might have no head.

374
00:17:46.259 --> 00:17:48.539
Thank you.

375
00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:50.279
It was it was it was Chris, yeah.

376
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:53.700
Because I just love that idea that, of course, he's going, this is

377
00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:57.599
all about perception. which is a neat way of seeing this story.

378
00:17:57.660 --> 00:17:58.559
Yeah, absolutely.

379
00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:00.420
Yeah, yeah.

380
00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:04.680
I mean, it's not, you know, I think I think that once you sort of

381
00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:06.359
deal, do that.

382
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:07.500
Do you know what I mean?

383
00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:09.420
Like, I think it's dealt with sort of fairly quickly and then it

384
00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:12.359
just ends up being, we're in peril because the planet's going to

385
00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:14.099
explode and Margas being mean.

386
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:15.000
Do you know what I mean?

387
00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:17.339
How soon?

388
00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:21.359
It must be episode 2 that it's pretty clearly established that the

389
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.960
rills are not the villains, the rills are the good guys.

390
00:18:25.019 --> 00:18:27.420
Yeah, it becomes a it becomes a race to get off.

391
00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:30.779
But as we were discussing, last time when we were looking at the

392
00:18:30.779 --> 00:18:34.680
Space Museum. and as you said, Nathan, a lot of Hartnell stories

393
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:39.420
are sort of a conceptual 1st episode and then dealing with the

394
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:45.240
fallout of that concept for the next 3 or 5 episodes.

395
00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:48.779
So, for instance, even the Keys of Mariners, which you're a big

396
00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:54.119
fan of, episodes 2 through six, all link back to that central

397
00:18:54.119 --> 00:19:00.000
concept in episode one of free will and law and the concept of

398
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.599
society and how to relate to it.

399
00:19:03.660 --> 00:19:05.279
So we'd see different types of society.

400
00:19:05.339 --> 00:19:06.420
We see different types of people.

401
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.319
So in this, we get that idea in the 1st episode of the doctor

402
00:19:10.319 --> 00:19:12.059
saying very early on.

403
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:16.740
We only have these people's word that the rills are these evil

404
00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.019
vile creatures, and Vicky says, yes, and I don't like.

405
00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:19.859
Well, I don't like them.

406
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.940
I don't trust them at all.

407
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:22.500
So how can we know if we trust them?

408
00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.700
And so the next 3 episodes are about proving that idea and then

409
00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:27.480
what do you do next?

410
00:19:27.539 --> 00:19:29.039
You know how can you help people?

411
00:19:29.099 --> 00:19:32.339
And even right up to the end of the story, the rills are willing

412
00:19:32.339 --> 00:19:36.299
to take the drive-ins with them. until the drive-ins go under the

413
00:19:36.299 --> 00:19:38.519
loud attack and the rules are just like, okay.

414
00:19:38.579 --> 00:19:39.299
Right?

415
00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:40.380
That's your choice.

416
00:19:40.500 --> 00:19:41.099
Bye bye now.

417
00:19:41.700 --> 00:19:44.940
Can I talk very quickly about the recons?

418
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:46.019
Yes.

419
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.440
There's there's no telly snaps for this.

420
00:19:49.500 --> 00:19:52.619
And for ages, it was thought that there was just one picture, one

421
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:56.099
sort of crummy picture of the rills in existence, so we really

422
00:19:56.099 --> 00:19:59.400
didn't properly know what they look like. close for their face.

423
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:02.819
And so the loose cannon people have had to go to extraordinary

424
00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:07.559
lengths to produce visuals for the story.

425
00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.819
And it includes, I think, one of them dressing up as a Dravan with

426
00:20:11.819 --> 00:20:13.799
a Dravan gun and having photos.

427
00:20:13.859 --> 00:20:15.059
They make their own Chumbly.

428
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.400
They make their own TARDIS.

429
00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:18.599
It's really terrific.

430
00:20:18.660 --> 00:20:19.859
And there's these endless shots.

431
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:25.740
You know how the drone women, like Margas 2nd and 3rd in command

432
00:20:25.740 --> 00:20:29.339
you know, they're just sort of clones or something, and they eat

433
00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:29.940
leaves.

434
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.779
Like, I don't know, marker gets to eat truffles and foie gras and

435
00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:35.279
something and they eat leaves.

436
00:20:35.339 --> 00:20:39.420
And so these endless shots of like bowls full of leaves.

437
00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:43.319
Just so that we have something to look at during the dialogue.

438
00:20:43.319 --> 00:20:45.720
And it really is just an absolutely heroic effort.

439
00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:50.339
And of course, the same team who made that made the condensed

440
00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:55.319
reconstruction that goes around the existing episode on the Aztec

441
00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:56.460
special edition DVD.

442
00:20:56.519 --> 00:21:01.319
So what you have is you have a 15 minute reconstruction of the

443
00:21:01.319 --> 00:21:05.339
other 3 episodes and the now found episode is dropped into the

444
00:21:05.339 --> 00:21:07.380
middle of that in its entirety.

445
00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:10.079
And it works pretty well.

446
00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:14.579
I will say they cut out some of my favourite lines, but I will

447
00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:17.640
actually talk more about that later, if that makes sense, in a

448
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:18.779
later episode.

449
00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:20.400
Lots to say about this story.

450
00:21:20.460 --> 00:21:23.880
A lot of things began and ended with this story, as we'll see as

451
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:24.839
the season progresses.

452
00:21:24.900 --> 00:21:26.099
This is true indeed.

453
00:21:26.160 --> 00:21:30.059
But before we move on, I will mention the cake as has been

454
00:21:30.059 --> 00:21:30.660
referred to.

455
00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:36.900
See, I've wanted each time to make a cake that somehow relates to

456
00:21:36.900 --> 00:21:38.279
a story we're discussing.

457
00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:42.599
I was going to make butterfly cakes for the web planet that fell

458
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:47.099
through and Rod made the larvae scrolls instead.

459
00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:48.299
So I was determined this time.

460
00:21:48.359 --> 00:21:56.039
So I've actually made a chocolate and butter tiered sponge Chumbly

461
00:21:56.039 --> 00:21:56.640
cake.

462
00:21:57.119 --> 00:21:59.160
It's a cake in the shape of a chumbly.

463
00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:02.460
Before we ate its head, I'd say it was about 10 inches tall.

464
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.660
And there will be photos and a full recipe on the website.

465
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:09.720
So you can make your own Chumbli cake at home.

466
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.640
I was very Blue Peter and I actually have already planned what my

467
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.759
season four, 5 and 6 baked goods are going to be.

468
00:22:17.819 --> 00:22:20.220
So stay tuned for that.

469
00:22:20.339 --> 00:22:24.480
Anything else to say on the...

470
00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:26.039
There's a lot to be...

471
00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.039
The other points of this story is you were just saying, will be

472
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:30.480
developed later in the season.

473
00:22:30.539 --> 00:22:32.759
It's just the beginning of the trajectory.

474
00:22:32.819 --> 00:22:33.960
It really is, yeah.

475
00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:37.440
So let's let's continue on that trajectory to the final piece of

476
00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:39.720
Doctor Who produced by Verity Lambert.

477
00:22:39.779 --> 00:22:40.859
Mission to the unknown.

478
00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:50.460
So I'm hoping it's a space rocket with Batman controls.

479
00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:53.940
Yeah, not quite yet.

480
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:57.000
Had Batman started on ITV?

481
00:22:57.059 --> 00:22:59.640
This is that's a interesting point.

482
00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:01.380
So, yeah, this is 1965.

483
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:04.859
But we are starting to get to the point where ratings do become of

484
00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:07.559
concern, which I guess is what we were touching on earlier when

485
00:23:07.559 --> 00:23:10.440
the show starts looking at what's going on around it because some

486
00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:16.380
ITV had launched a game show. your lucky stars, your lucky stars

487
00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:19.799
on the other at the same time slot and it was really starting to

488
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:20.640
pull in ratings.

489
00:23:20.700 --> 00:23:26.819
So just the 1st bit of reality TV comes and sniffs at us and

490
00:23:26.819 --> 00:23:27.720
starts to snarl.

491
00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:32.220
Yeah, it was starting to actually have something to counter it.

492
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:34.680
So they were looking at ways to make it more popular.

493
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:37.920
You know about ratings and things, Brandon?

494
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.140
For this particular season?

495
00:23:40.140 --> 00:23:40.980
Well, after the season.

496
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:46.500
Well, it started, generally speaking, it started strongly, and did

497
00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:49.980
peak around Dalek's Master Plan, which will be coming up, but

498
00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:52.799
started to drop off later on, but we should discuss that in

499
00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:53.759
later.

500
00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:55.740
So when it comes to the end, I mean, is this just going to be a

501
00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:57.779
crushing tale of defeat and mere cancellation?

502
00:23:58.140 --> 00:24:00.299
Well, we'll have to see.

503
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:01.859
We'll have to see that.

504
00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:06.839
So we just had over 11000000 for Galaxy 4 and this one pulled in

505
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:08.160
8.3.

506
00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:12.000
Exactly. 60s, Britain must have been depressed.

507
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:15.660
Oh, we've got, I think we've got one of the best, most interesting

508
00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:18.359
anti-Doctor Who stories so far made.

509
00:24:18.420 --> 00:24:19.619
This is the 1st one.

510
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:20.339
Can we jump in?

511
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:21.779
This is the very 1st story.

512
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:24.359
The most important thing for me is the bad guys win.

513
00:24:24.420 --> 00:24:25.440
Yes.

514
00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:31.079
Yeah, absolutely, because spoiler work, by the end, the 3 heroic

515
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.660
characters introduced in the story are dead.

516
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:35.220
They are.

517
00:24:35.279 --> 00:24:39.539
And the doctor and who's the doctor travelling with these days?

518
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:40.859
The Dr. Stephen and Vicky?

519
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:41.640
Don't turn up.

520
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:43.859
No, he's credited, but he doesn't appear.

521
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:45.359
Is he credited?

522
00:24:45.420 --> 00:24:46.079
He's credited.

523
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:46.259
Yeah.

524
00:24:46.259 --> 00:24:49.259
And and and like would the radio times have had them in it?

525
00:24:49.319 --> 00:24:49.920
Do you know what I mean?

526
00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:52.200
Like other people at home.

527
00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:55.680
No one at home knows that this is the Dr. Light episode.

528
00:24:55.740 --> 00:24:56.579
Do you know what I mean?

529
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.960
Like everyone presumably is looking at the clock going, when's the

530
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:01.740
doctor showing up?

531
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.500
Yeah, so that would have been very shocking, especially with that

532
00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:07.920
ending. where the bad guys win and the tape that Mark Corey's

533
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:11.279
recorded his message onto Warn Earth is just lying there in the

534
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:11.579
mud.

535
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:15.660
There's a little segue at the end of Galaxy 4.

536
00:25:15.900 --> 00:25:18.059
Vicky looks up at the scanner and says, I wonder what's happening

537
00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:21.839
on that planet and we cut to that planet and Barry Jackson gets up

538
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:22.920
and says, I must kill.

539
00:25:22.980 --> 00:25:25.319
And, you know, I know how he feels.

540
00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:27.779
That then leads on from there.

541
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:32.039
But I think it's such an interesting thing born out of necessity.

542
00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:34.859
For those of you who don't know, I mean, we've already mentioned

543
00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:38.279
this is some, uh, the 1st Doctor Who episode where the doctor

544
00:25:38.279 --> 00:25:39.000
doesn't appear.

545
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:41.400
I don't even think the new series has done an episode without the

546
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:42.180
doctor entirely.

547
00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:45.839
The closest is probably turn left, where David Tennant's only in 2

548
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:46.200
sees.

549
00:25:47.400 --> 00:25:53.519
But in this one, it goes back to Planet of Giants, which, of

550
00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:56.519
course, was made as four-part story, but edited down to three.

551
00:25:56.579 --> 00:26:01.019
So Verity still owed the BBC one more episode of Doctor Who to

552
00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:05.940
fulfil the episode order, but the contracts for the regulars

553
00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:08.279
stipulated also how many episodes they could work on.

554
00:26:08.339 --> 00:26:13.319
Now, Billy had made That episode for the BBC already.

555
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:15.960
So rather than have to draw up a new contract, and knowing they

556
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:19.019
had that 12 part dialect story to come, Verity decided to give it

557
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:22.619
a prologue to help set up the world and the Dalek scheme.

558
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.980
So that's the sort of nuts and bolts of why it happened.

559
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.420
But what's interesting is how well I feel.

560
00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:36.359
It does work as a sort of 25 minute out of the unknown, outer

561
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:39.299
limit style story onto its own right.

562
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:43.980
I think I think it's really really enjoyable and it is that

563
00:26:43.980 --> 00:26:44.220
thing.

564
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:49.380
I mean, where, because it's only 25 minutes, you can't get bored

565
00:26:49.380 --> 00:26:54.000
of it, but, and it's, it's sort of reasonably tense and, and that

566
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:54.960
sort of thing and it is.

567
00:26:55.019 --> 00:26:58.079
I also think it's very much more what Terry Nation wants to do.

568
00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:04.380
I mean, you know, in uh, you know, in 1978, Blake 7 comes on the

569
00:27:04.380 --> 00:27:07.799
air and that sorts of posturing and people with guns and future

570
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:09.900
people and ray guns and spaceships.

571
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:11.039
It's space opera.

572
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:12.240
And that's what this is.

573
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:15.900
And this is where Terry Nation's most comfortable.

574
00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.140
And it's not really a great fit for Doctor Who.

575
00:27:19.200 --> 00:27:23.039
I have to say that the Doctor Who isn't sort of science fiction in

576
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:25.440
the sense, or hitherto hasn't been that.

577
00:27:25.559 --> 00:27:28.259
Like we've been on a spaceship, I think, by now.

578
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:32.579
But Doctor Who isn't about spaceships and ray guns, particularly.

579
00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:36.779
But that's what Terry Nation wants to write about.

580
00:27:36.839 --> 00:27:40.019
And so here I think he does it sort of quite confidently and it is

581
00:27:40.019 --> 00:27:43.200
that sort of pulpish thing that Richard is almost certainly going

582
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:44.700
to talk to us about in a minute.

583
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:47.519
That sort of, you know, the Dan Dare thing that you were showing

584
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:52.740
me earlier on and you have the Dalek annual there.

585
00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:55.140
We must show Rod that picture, actually.

586
00:27:55.440 --> 00:27:58.980
But, you know, nipples, dearly.

587
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.240
Let's just put it that way.

588
00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:02.279
There are nipples in the goal, okay?

589
00:28:03.059 --> 00:28:05.519
So this is like he's got six.

590
00:28:05.579 --> 00:28:09.180
This is what he, this is what nation wants to be writing.

591
00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:14.759
And the doctor's not in it, so you don't have that sort of weird

592
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:20.039
the weird situation where the hero in your space opera is a sort

593
00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:25.019
of doddering old man in sort of Edwardian clothes and things.

594
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:28.079
And I'm not sure that really quite works when we get back to

595
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:29.400
Darlic master plan.

596
00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:32.700
But here, because you don't have that, I think it just works

597
00:28:32.700 --> 00:28:34.859
terribly well as a sort of thrilling space adventure.

598
00:28:34.920 --> 00:28:37.680
It is a thrilling space adventure, but it's a thrilling space

599
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.839
adventure with reference before the pulps.

600
00:28:39.900 --> 00:28:43.680
This is where, again, we're looking at how Doctor Who is now about

601
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:45.420
what Doctor Who is out in the media.

602
00:28:45.539 --> 00:28:50.339
This is an acknowledgement of the TV21s and the Dalek comic strips

603
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:54.599
and it pretty much, well, you've got a special agent with a

604
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:55.500
license to kill.

605
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:58.980
So we're also looking at what's popular in media and film at the

606
00:28:58.980 --> 00:28:59.220
time.

607
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:04.200
You've got Mark Corey with his Edward DeSouza plays him, doesn't

608
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:04.319
he?

609
00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:06.000
as a kind of matinee idol.

610
00:29:06.059 --> 00:29:09.480
You've also got from that accent. with that accent.

611
00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:11.940
There's lots of things about the external world in this one.

612
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.059
The thing that I really took away from it because we can't see it

613
00:29:15.059 --> 00:29:15.839
but we can't be sure.

614
00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:20.160
But the notion of the Daleks in a dense jungle with flamethrowers

615
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:23.940
is coming straight off the 630 news because we were seeing these

616
00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:27.000
things for the 1st time being used in Jungle War in Vietnam.

617
00:29:27.059 --> 00:29:31.200
So the image is straight off the violence that people are seeing

618
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:36.180
in the media, as well as you've just thrown that into the mix of

619
00:29:36.180 --> 00:29:40.440
Whitaker's Dalek comic strip on the back of TV21.

620
00:29:40.619 --> 00:29:45.059
Some of the very same characters, special agents, and we're about

621
00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:49.920
to go into the whole other world that, um, nation was wanting to

622
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:54.480
set another revenue razor for him, you know, for his own writing

623
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:58.440
and get the Daleks to be produced in the US as their own TV show

624
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:00.059
with their own other characters.

625
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:04.500
This is why we're not going to have Daleks, you know, after the 2

626
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:09.660
tracks, ones will be like 5 blokes. in silver wetsuits. motorcycle

627
00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:12.240
helmets on the motorcycle handlebars on their heads, I should

628
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:12.480
say.

629
00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:14.880
Oh, I didn't know you saw me last night.

630
00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:18.299
But this is nations, no, yeah, nation spinoff was called the

631
00:30:18.299 --> 00:30:22.440
Destructors, and it's full of Coreys and Garveys, and an I Android

632
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:23.279
called Seven.

633
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:26.099
Or Mark 7, yeah, in this ones.

634
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.660
But in the TV21 comic, there's Special Agent 2K, who is one of the

635
00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:35.579
greatest Doctor Who spinoffs of all time. his head opened up and

636
00:30:35.579 --> 00:30:37.559
he turned into a helicopter, amongst other things.

637
00:30:38.519 --> 00:30:40.920
Suck that up, Astro boy.

638
00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:42.900
We have even better in Doctor Who.

639
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:46.740
Yeah, all of that is going on in the Dalek strips at this time and

640
00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:49.559
the kids who would be watching us would absolutely be referencing

641
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:51.240
what they're looking at in TV 21.

642
00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:56.160
I can't imagine that an American TV show starring the Daleks would

643
00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:59.640
be anything other than just absolutely horrendously awful.

644
00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:05.220
Well, Big Finish have recorded the script for the Destroyers.

645
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:06.900
Instructors.

646
00:31:07.019 --> 00:31:13.259
Oh, they got a dictionary, though, and decided... the destroyer is

647
00:31:13.259 --> 00:31:16.259
actually... the space security.

648
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:20.700
The Space Security Service, the SSS with the heroes.

649
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:22.980
Yeah, yeah, as well.

650
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:24.960
Nation, what you're trying to tell us here.

651
00:31:25.019 --> 00:31:29.640
But the funny thing is, the destroyers or destructors, whichever

652
00:31:29.640 --> 00:31:29.940
you like.

653
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.900
It had a very, at least the way Big Finish produced it.

654
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:34.980
Hello, Su Tech.

655
00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:41.400
It had a very sort of ITC adventure series feel, and in actual

656
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:46.619
fact, a lot of the set pieces from the script are recycled in an

657
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:50.940
episode of the Avengers called Invasion of the Earth now.

658
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:51.960
So it was.

659
00:31:52.019 --> 00:31:55.980
There's a train, there's a training ground for astronauts that has

660
00:31:55.980 --> 00:32:04.019
the same kind of perils that Sarah Kingdom and Mark 7 face in the

661
00:32:04.019 --> 00:32:07.019
jungle as they're trying to rescue Sarah's brother.

662
00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:12.720
This is not the same Sarah Kingdom as in Dalek Masterplan.

663
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:14.220
It is a slightly retold character.

664
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.799
Her family history is different and she's written differently as

665
00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:16.920
well.

666
00:32:16.980 --> 00:32:19.319
That's just very nation in drag, though, isn't it?

667
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:23.099
This has been pointed out, Sarah, Terry, Nation, Kingdom.

668
00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:23.700
Do you know what I mean?

669
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:24.480
like Sarah Kingdom.

670
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:28.500
It's like Tarrant. everyone's called Tarrant in the Terry verse.

671
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:32.759
Yeah, so I...

672
00:32:32.759 --> 00:32:34.980
I'm a soap opera that isn't very nation Street.

673
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.160
I, I, I, I do kind of love terriation in a way.

674
00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:39.059
Sorry.

675
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:40.559
Terry Nation Street.

676
00:32:40.619 --> 00:32:46.140
I love Terry Nation for his whole kind of Stephen King attitude to

677
00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:48.900
writing because Stephen King is famously someone who, when he

678
00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.000
stuck for an idea, He'll just look around and the 1st thing he

679
00:32:51.000 --> 00:32:52.980
sees, right, that's that's his monster.

680
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:56.400
As I think it's Family Guy joke towards, you know, Stephen King

681
00:32:56.400 --> 00:32:58.859
looking around his agent's office for an idea and saying, I'm

682
00:32:58.859 --> 00:33:00.779
writing a scary story about a possessed lamp.

683
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:03.779
And that's the kind of thing Terry does, you know.

684
00:33:03.839 --> 00:33:07.740
He looks out into his garden and sees a funny looking plant and

685
00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:09.779
right, I'm going to have the Varga plants.

686
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.000
You know that...

687
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:16.859
No one said that is exactly what happened, but it's probably...

688
00:33:16.920 --> 00:33:17.759
I think of the visions.

689
00:33:17.819 --> 00:33:20.039
He looked out of his window and did, like, see anything.

690
00:33:21.059 --> 00:33:22.980
Invisible things.

691
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:24.240
They're cheap to realise.

692
00:33:24.420 --> 00:33:26.880
Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

693
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:27.539
Yes we are.

694
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.460
Well, on the planet in the era for a good reason.

695
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:33.900
It is impossible to talk about mission to the unknown in isolation

696
00:33:33.900 --> 00:33:38.339
because, of course, it is the prelude to the Dalek's master plan.

697
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:40.500
But coming back to...

698
00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:43.799
We do have about 6 hours, though, don't we set aside to talk

699
00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:46.079
about?

700
00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:49.140
So I think you're right, we should get back to Mission to the

701
00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:49.500
Unknown.

702
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:54.480
What I, and what I've seen of Mission to the Unknown, and I can't

703
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:59.880
really comment as to how I got it, but I have seen the Ian Levine

704
00:33:59.880 --> 00:34:03.299
commissioned animation of Mission to the Owners. think it's on

705
00:34:03.299 --> 00:34:04.740
YouTube. you can just see it on YouTube.

706
00:34:04.799 --> 00:34:05.880
Yeah.

707
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:08.280
Well, it's some, and you know, it's very good.

708
00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:11.460
And again, it's taking its skews, as you were saying, Richard, from

709
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:16.320
animation design in the 60s, and particularly the 70s, it looks

710
00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:19.079
like those 60s, 70s filmation series.

711
00:34:19.139 --> 00:34:23.639
It looks like it looks like Ghostbusters, the series from before

712
00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:25.079
the Ghostbusters films.

713
00:34:25.139 --> 00:34:26.760
It looks like Scooby-Doo.

714
00:34:26.820 --> 00:34:28.619
And it's animated very faithfully.

715
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:31.920
I am very surprised because it was offered to 2 entertained to

716
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:34.440
release in some fashion and they turned it down.

717
00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:38.219
I think it's a wonderful piece of work and I do recommend anyone.

718
00:34:38.219 --> 00:34:39.780
No, we can.

719
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:40.679
You can find it.

720
00:34:40.739 --> 00:34:45.179
But I actually, I actually like the um, the recon just because the

721
00:34:45.179 --> 00:34:48.659
seeing the shots of the, the, the spaceship set, you know, in the

722
00:34:48.659 --> 00:34:49.500
jungle and stuff.

723
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:52.619
I, you know, this is another one where I've listened to it a lot

724
00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:56.099
on audio, um, I really like it in Dalek Masterplan.

725
00:34:56.159 --> 00:34:58.380
I think it's just phenomenally entertaining.

726
00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:02.699
But this time for the 1st time seeing those sets and things.

727
00:35:02.760 --> 00:35:04.380
I think it looks spectacular.

728
00:35:04.440 --> 00:35:06.360
The jungle looks great, you know.

729
00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:12.179
So watching the, um, uh, the animation, you know, would be fun, but

730
00:35:12.179 --> 00:35:17.099
I was surprised by how, how, how accessible the uh, the recon

731
00:35:17.099 --> 00:35:17.340
was.

732
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:19.139
Yeah, yeah, it's very good.

733
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:22.800
And also the benefit of loose kind of reconstruction is they do

734
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:25.619
get together the 3 main human actors.

735
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:29.280
Edward DeSouza, who was Mark Corey, Barry Jackson, who was Jeff

736
00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:32.760
Garvey, and Jeremy Young, who was Gordon Lowry.

737
00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:37.920
And they actually have really vivid memories of working on the

738
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:39.900
story and it's quite interesting to listen to those.

739
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.579
There's like an interview that they've done with them.

740
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:45.179
Yeah.

741
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:46.619
The 3 of them together?

742
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:48.239
Did they get David Graham as well?

743
00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:49.739
The voice of Parker from Thunder?

744
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:51.000
Did they get...

745
00:35:51.059 --> 00:35:51.719
He was a darling.

746
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.980
Did they get Malpha back?

747
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:53.940
They didn't?

748
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:55.559
Is Malpha is in this, isn't he?

749
00:35:55.619 --> 00:35:59.219
Yeah, but I believe he's no, I believe Robert Carl Lund is no

750
00:35:59.219 --> 00:35:59.760
longer with us.

751
00:35:59.820 --> 00:36:02.219
I could be wrong, but I believe that would be the case.

752
00:36:02.820 --> 00:36:06.840
I hope he's not a listener then, you know, that'd be a shock.

753
00:36:06.900 --> 00:36:09.840
Robert Cartland, if you're out there and listening, please let us

754
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.559
know you're all right.

755
00:36:11.880 --> 00:36:15.300
Just before we move on, there is also the controversy around the

756
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:17.340
story as to what is it called?

757
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:18.960
Well, it's called Dalek Caraway.

758
00:36:19.019 --> 00:36:20.280
Yeah.

759
00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:24.719
Because there's the theory that, um, yeah, it's Mission to the

760
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:28.139
Unknown is the episode title of the story Dalek Cutaway because it

761
00:36:28.139 --> 00:36:31.860
is officially referred to as Dalek Cutaway on BBC.

762
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.739
Production notes, but taking that, of course, it does have an

763
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:36.900
alternate title on BBC production notes as well.

764
00:36:36.960 --> 00:36:38.639
What's the alternate title?

765
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:42.000
Dear verity, so sorry to hear you're moving on.

766
00:36:42.059 --> 00:36:43.440
Here's that extra thing with Doug.

767
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:45.840
We call it that.

768
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:47.880
I think we can.

769
00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.260
Right, so Verity Lambert's gone.

770
00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:06.239
John Wildes, the new producer, is now fully entrenched and in

771
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:07.260
charge.

772
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:10.440
However, we still have a few stories which verity commissioned

773
00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:11.340
before she left.

774
00:37:11.400 --> 00:37:13.500
So there's a bit of a hand over here, and the 1st of those stories

775
00:37:13.500 --> 00:37:14.940
is Nathan.

776
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.500
Yes, it's the myth makers.

777
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:19.440
So it's another historical for me, which I'm you know, hugely

778
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:20.519
thrilled about, obviously.

779
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:24.659
But I have to say that this is another one that I think works very

780
00:37:24.659 --> 00:37:25.019
well.

781
00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:29.940
And I think it works for the same reason that the Romans works in

782
00:37:29.940 --> 00:37:30.480
that.

783
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.599
Yeah, I really want to use the word tropes, but I'm all self

784
00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:37.199
conscious about it now.

785
00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:39.119
What the hell?

786
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:40.320
No, no.

787
00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:47.519
It uses stories that are known to people in the audience.

788
00:37:47.579 --> 00:37:51.840
And again, uh, things like the Iliad and the Aeneid are perhaps

789
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:58.199
not quite so widely known as they once were, but they were quite

790
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:02.519
well known to, you know, have plenty of the audience members in

791
00:38:02.519 --> 00:38:05.340
the, uh, uh, in the 19th.

792
00:38:05.699 --> 00:38:06.179
Yeah.

793
00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:09.780
And so you have all of these sort of very familiar characters, and

794
00:38:09.780 --> 00:38:13.619
then you drop the doctor, and to a lesser degree, Stephen and

795
00:38:13.619 --> 00:38:16.380
Vicki, in that story.

796
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:21.480
And with the added sort of idea that it's the myth makers, you

797
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:21.719
know?

798
00:38:21.780 --> 00:38:27.480
So we're kind of admitting that we're being historically ropey, you

799
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:31.440
know, we have a historical Achilles and an Odysseus and a Hector

800
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.579
and these are all sort of real people in this version of things.

801
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.280
And so we get to play with the idea that the doctor knows what the

802
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:43.679
myth is and how it plays out, just as the sort of members of the

803
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:44.400
audience do.

804
00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:49.320
And then also you get, you know, all of these epic characters.

805
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:52.440
I mean, you know, the Iliad, you know, is one of the earliest

806
00:38:52.440 --> 00:38:55.739
stories of Western literature that we have.

807
00:38:56.699 --> 00:39:01.380
And, you know, it's hugely spectacular and terrific.

808
00:39:01.500 --> 00:39:07.619
And so the story gets to undermine these old characters and to

809
00:39:07.619 --> 00:39:08.519
have fun with them.

810
00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:13.980
And so, right from the, right from the get go, Richard's just

811
00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:17.099
handed, handed me Robert Fagel's translation of the Elliad, which

812
00:39:17.099 --> 00:39:18.059
is absolutely beautiful.

813
00:39:18.119 --> 00:39:19.079
It really is great.

814
00:39:19.139 --> 00:39:21.659
The pages stick together at almost every chapter.

815
00:39:21.719 --> 00:39:23.460
Well, it is wonderful.

816
00:39:23.519 --> 00:39:24.719
It is just wonderful.

817
00:39:24.780 --> 00:39:27.300
Yeah, that could be my pick of the week.

818
00:39:27.420 --> 00:39:31.980
But of course, the Mythmakers actually starts with Iliad

819
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:32.579
finishes.

820
00:39:32.579 --> 00:39:37.440
So the big climactic battle between Achilles and Hector takes

821
00:39:37.440 --> 00:39:41.880
place in book 22, of the Iliad right towards the end, and the

822
00:39:41.880 --> 00:39:46.980
stuff that we get, the Trojan whore stuff is basically from Aeneid

823
00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:51.119
book 2 and the Troitos and Cressida stuff is from the Middle Ages

824
00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:51.420
really.

825
00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:54.719
It's, you know, all sort of a lot later.

826
00:39:54.780 --> 00:39:58.739
But it's all things that are familiar to the people at home and

827
00:39:58.739 --> 00:40:01.920
there's a wonderful way in which she subverts all those

828
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:02.400
characters.

829
00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:05.400
So just Menelaus is spectacular.

830
00:40:05.460 --> 00:40:08.880
He's a drunk, you know, and he's bored with the war and he's kind

831
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:11.820
of quite keen to be shot of hell and he doesn't mind that she's

832
00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:12.000
gone.

833
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:14.639
She's not done it before.

834
00:40:14.820 --> 00:40:18.480
This is one of the, and then you've got Cassandra, who in this is

835
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:22.260
fine, is the villain rather than Homer's, where she is the high

836
00:40:22.260 --> 00:40:26.940
priestess and prophetess and really the voice of the, the super

837
00:40:26.940 --> 00:40:29.280
narrative, the book that looking onto the narrative.

838
00:40:29.340 --> 00:40:31.139
She's the darkest thing in it.

839
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:33.360
But the thing that you remember about Cassandra too.

840
00:40:33.420 --> 00:40:35.099
And you read this elsewhere.

841
00:40:35.159 --> 00:40:40.380
I've just been reading one of Ovid's love allergies that mentions

842
00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:41.159
Cassandra.

843
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:44.579
And the thing that, the thing that you remember about her is that

844
00:40:44.579 --> 00:40:48.300
she's dragged out of the temple, you know, when Troy is finally

845
00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:51.719
sacked, she sort of dragged out by the hair by a middle land, sort

846
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:52.079
of thinking.

847
00:40:52.980 --> 00:40:53.940
Yeah, we read that...

848
00:40:54.059 --> 00:40:56.219
It's a comedy for like the 1st 3.5 episodes.

849
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:58.019
And everyone is brutally murdered.

850
00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:00.599
This is what I've been talking about earlier when I was alluding

851
00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:06.780
to how this season plays with camp tropes and throws and throws

852
00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:07.800
narrative sideways.

853
00:41:07.860 --> 00:41:10.920
Camp nose doesn't always mean queer and silly and funny.

854
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:13.199
It also means turning things on its head.

855
00:41:13.260 --> 00:41:17.099
So, yeah, the roles are all reversed and we go from three.

856
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.699
I think this is one of my all-time top 5 favourite Doctor Who

857
00:41:20.699 --> 00:41:21.000
stories.

858
00:41:21.059 --> 00:41:24.059
It is intensely jealous when the randomiser.

859
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:26.159
Interestingly gave it to its creator.

860
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:29.099
Nothing else to say. right now.

861
00:41:29.159 --> 00:41:31.619
I just, I really love this story.

862
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:33.000
I only knew it in audio.

863
00:41:33.059 --> 00:41:36.179
I read the target book that Donald Cotton penned and came out

864
00:41:36.179 --> 00:41:38.159
about 15 years ago.

865
00:41:38.219 --> 00:41:43.079
It's really expensive to get on, um, to get on eBay if you can

866
00:41:43.079 --> 00:41:43.559
hunt it down.

867
00:41:43.739 --> 00:41:45.360
The audiobook is available.

868
00:41:45.420 --> 00:41:46.739
Read by Stephen Thorn.

869
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.800
So the actual novel. you've listened to that, haven't you?

870
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:53.699
Yes, so have I. And I haven't because I just, you know, I prefer

871
00:41:53.699 --> 00:41:55.320
to read them or listen to the audio.

872
00:41:55.380 --> 00:42:00.000
But it's a really nicely written just as his copy of the Romans, if

873
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:02.099
we didn't mention it last time, is really worth reading.

874
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.460
You know, I actually haven't listened to it, but it is narrated by

875
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:06.360
Homer, isn't it?

876
00:42:06.420 --> 00:42:08.099
Is that the is that the conceit?

877
00:42:08.159 --> 00:42:10.980
Yeah, it's look, it's just great.

878
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:13.019
Even if you're not a fan of this story.

879
00:42:13.079 --> 00:42:16.920
I would start with Stephen, as you say, Stephen Thorne's narration

880
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:19.500
of that, if you can. shout all the way through the movie.

881
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:20.820
No, he's got beautiful balance.

882
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.820
Should we mention whom Stephen Thorne has played?

883
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.300
So he's in the series of Doctor Who, if no one knows who he is.

884
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:28.199
He's a Zaar.

885
00:42:28.260 --> 00:42:29.940
He's a...

886
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:30.780
He's an Ogron.

887
00:42:30.840 --> 00:42:32.039
Yeah, he's a what?

888
00:42:32.099 --> 00:42:32.880
He's an Ogron.

889
00:42:32.940 --> 00:42:33.420
Is he?

890
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:34.019
Yes, he is.

891
00:42:34.079 --> 00:42:37.199
He's everything behind a plaquey mask with his leg.

892
00:42:37.260 --> 00:42:40.679
Big finish upbringing back his omega as well.

893
00:42:40.739 --> 00:42:41.940
Ah, good.

894
00:42:41.940 --> 00:42:45.780
They've had they've had Ian Collier. as Omega, of course. about 10

895
00:42:45.780 --> 00:42:48.420
years ago. and now they're bringing back the Stephen Thorne

896
00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:49.079
version too.

897
00:42:49.139 --> 00:42:50.400
Well, who wouldn't?

898
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:54.360
Because, you know, I think he's 19 out and still going strong.

899
00:42:54.420 --> 00:42:55.440
He's like William Russell.

900
00:42:55.500 --> 00:42:56.340
Yes.

901
00:42:56.340 --> 00:42:57.179
Fabulous.

902
00:42:57.780 --> 00:42:59.639
I love this story.

903
00:42:59.699 --> 00:43:00.300
I really do.

904
00:43:00.360 --> 00:43:01.440
That's not a Sutic.

905
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.579
That thing with the Trojan horse, the fun, like, interaction of

906
00:43:05.579 --> 00:43:06.840
narrative and history and things.

907
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:10.920
So, you know, the doctor's not going to build the Trojan. like the

908
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:12.780
doctor has to get some, get them.

909
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.960
He's being threatened by Odysseus and he has to get them over the

910
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:19.380
walls and like he toys with the idea of the horse, but he says, no

911
00:43:19.380 --> 00:43:24.539
no, Homer made that up. that's ridiculous So instead, his idea is

912
00:43:24.539 --> 00:43:30.000
to get a big catapult and use it to fire a paper airplane with a

913
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.579
soldier sitting in it over the wall.

914
00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:36.659
And that's all really good until Odysseus says yes, but you're

915
00:43:36.659 --> 00:43:38.099
going to the one who tests it out.

916
00:43:38.219 --> 00:43:41.699
And so he goes, yes, no, well, maybe I won't do that, then we'll

917
00:43:41.699 --> 00:43:43.019
do the horse thing after all.

918
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:47.639
Yeah, it's it's the giant, it's the giant wooden rabbit scene from

919
00:43:47.639 --> 00:43:51.420
Monty Python's Holy Grail. 15 years before it happened.

920
00:43:51.480 --> 00:43:56.760
You know, because it's hard to tell without the visuals, because

921
00:43:56.760 --> 00:44:01.199
it's an entirely missing story, except for a few snippets that

922
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:04.980
were taken off the TV screen with someone's 8 millimetre camera.

923
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:09.239
It's entirely impossible to tell if the doctor's joking or not

924
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:13.019
when you're suggesting the paper plain idea, but you are led to

925
00:44:13.019 --> 00:44:15.000
believe that when it suggested that he could do that.

926
00:44:15.059 --> 00:44:17.400
He says, okay, I'll build your horse.

927
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:19.440
It is really funny.

928
00:44:19.500 --> 00:44:22.500
And the interaction with him and Odysseus is hilarious.

929
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:23.699
Like Odysseus is funny.

930
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:24.780
Everyone's great.

931
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:25.860
Odysseus is funny.

932
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:28.260
Paris is screamingly funny.

933
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:32.880
Like he's just terribly posh and, you know, not very interested in

934
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:36.119
fighting, inept, easily fooled and all of that sort of thing.

935
00:44:36.179 --> 00:44:41.340
It's a sitcom set up with a with a family sitcom with Max Adrian

936
00:44:41.340 --> 00:44:45.960
as far as Brian's father and then Cassandra and Paris as the

937
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:47.159
squabbling siblings.

938
00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:52.199
And then, of course, Vicky appears amongst them as, what is she?

939
00:44:52.260 --> 00:44:55.920
She's they immediately conflated with a narrative, then she

940
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:56.880
becomes Cressida.

941
00:44:56.940 --> 00:45:00.119
Which ought to have tipped her off, but you said before, and

942
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:01.679
history's not as strong.

943
00:45:01.739 --> 00:45:02.280
Yes, right.

944
00:45:02.340 --> 00:45:04.019
But I mean, you should have got a bit nervous when they called it

945
00:45:04.019 --> 00:45:04.199
out.

946
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:07.079
Precedent isn't really a thing until the Middle Ages anyway.

947
00:45:07.139 --> 00:45:07.920
No, that's right.

948
00:45:07.980 --> 00:45:09.179
She not actually in home, actually.

949
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:11.820
He does have a character called Crisis.

950
00:45:12.420 --> 00:45:14.400
No, well, even that's not really a name.

951
00:45:14.460 --> 00:45:16.619
As in Norme, is that?

952
00:45:16.619 --> 00:45:18.780
She's called the No, no, a crisis.

953
00:45:18.840 --> 00:45:22.619
But, but the point, I mean, the idea is that she's just completely

954
00:45:22.619 --> 00:45:26.519
invented for the sake of a, like, it becomes a thing in the Middle

955
00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:29.099
Ages and in the Renaissance to tell the story of Troy and

956
00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:29.699
Cressida.

957
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.260
Yeah, that's right.

958
00:45:31.320 --> 00:45:34.559
But the thing that, I mean, the thing that strikes me, you know

959
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.099
the way that we talk about it is it's 3 episodes of comedy and

960
00:45:38.099 --> 00:45:39.480
then brutal murder at the end.

961
00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:43.559
But like everyone watching knows that there's brutal murder coming

962
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:44.099
surely.

963
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:45.239
Do you know what I mean?

964
00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:48.420
Like, you know that you know that Prime's going to be killed, you

965
00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:50.400
know, that Cassandra's going to be dragged out by a hair.

966
00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:51.780
You know that Paris is going to be killed.

967
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:56.579
And then the strange choice of having Troilus, who, in the

968
00:45:56.579 --> 00:45:59.579
classical version of the story, the thing he's most famous for is

969
00:45:59.579 --> 00:46:03.599
being killed, like Troilus isn't in the Iliad, he gets mentioned

970
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:06.599
by Priam and Priam says, you know, it's such a shame that he's

971
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:06.840
dead.

972
00:46:06.900 --> 00:46:10.019
And so Troyos is sort of famous for being dead.

973
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:13.920
Achilles kills him and in some stories, he beheads him in front of

974
00:46:13.920 --> 00:46:17.460
the altar after Troilus rebuffs his sexual advances.

975
00:46:17.579 --> 00:46:19.800
Yes, well, there is that.

976
00:46:19.860 --> 00:46:21.179
That's not in this.

977
00:46:21.239 --> 00:46:24.719
Well, it's certainly in the portrayal of Troilus. as you see, Troy

978
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:26.519
is here in the audio.

979
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:28.139
Well, yeah, he's famously pretty.

980
00:46:28.199 --> 00:46:31.619
But the Troilith and Cressetor relationship is doomed.

981
00:46:31.739 --> 00:46:33.480
Do you know what I mean?

982
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:35.579
Yeah, so it's doomed.

983
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:37.739
And the fact that at the end of it, they do go off together.

984
00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:42.059
Like in the, in the, in the Shakespeare play, like she ends up

985
00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:46.380
going back to the Greeks and she falls in love with Diomede, which

986
00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:49.260
is the name that Steven's actually using, or she flirts with him

987
00:46:49.260 --> 00:46:52.800
or something and Troilus gets really annoyed and he goes out to

988
00:46:52.800 --> 00:46:54.780
kill him some Greeks and gets killed.

989
00:46:54.840 --> 00:47:00.059
Well, Troilus does initially think that Vicky is with Stephen in

990
00:47:00.059 --> 00:47:01.860
that way and does get a bit jealous.

991
00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:03.840
I'm talking, he's like, oh, no, God, that's my brother, you know

992
00:47:03.960 --> 00:47:05.760
words to that effect.

993
00:47:05.820 --> 00:47:10.260
So like it is sort of strange that like we kind of led to think

994
00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:11.519
that that might be doomed.

995
00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:15.300
But because we've already had this idea that the myth and the

996
00:47:15.300 --> 00:47:18.300
history, like the story isn't isn't the same as what's happening

997
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:18.659
here.

998
00:47:18.719 --> 00:47:19.739
Do you know what I mean?

999
00:47:19.800 --> 00:47:21.960
Like maybe there will be a horse, maybe there'll be a giant

1000
00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.539
catapult firing, you know, people over the wall.

1001
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:28.199
So there's a secret history, in a sense, of Troilus and Cressida

1002
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:31.139
that never makes its way into Shakespeare and never makes its way

1003
00:47:31.139 --> 00:47:32.159
into Chaucer.

1004
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:36.119
And that secret history has, has Troilus and Cressida heading out

1005
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:39.780
to help Aeneas found Rome.

1006
00:47:39.840 --> 00:47:42.599
So, so they escape the slaughter.

1007
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:47.699
And, you know, even though Troilus is famous in Greek mythology

1008
00:47:47.699 --> 00:47:51.239
for nothing more than being killed, he actually avoids that fate

1009
00:47:51.239 --> 00:47:52.920
and goes off with Vicky.

1010
00:47:52.980 --> 00:47:54.360
Donald Cotton.

1011
00:47:54.420 --> 00:48:00.659
Sorry, Donald Cotton's target novel has an epilogue with Vicky and

1012
00:48:00.659 --> 00:48:04.920
Troilus being happily middle-aged and middle-aged.

1013
00:48:04.980 --> 00:48:06.659
Yeah, it's a nice Are they living in Rome?

1014
00:48:06.719 --> 00:48:07.860
No, not Rome.

1015
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:08.460
Lavinium.

1016
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:10.980
Oh, look, it's been a while since I've read it.

1017
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:12.059
But the...

1018
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:13.380
Okay, that's nice though.

1019
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.559
There's a big Finnish companion chronicle that follows on from

1020
00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:18.659
that as well. an older Vicky.

1021
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:20.579
It's one of the very early ones.

1022
00:48:20.639 --> 00:48:21.599
It's called Frostfire.

1023
00:48:21.659 --> 00:48:24.360
It's written by Mark Platt, so it's beautiful.

1024
00:48:24.420 --> 00:48:27.059
I can't say too much without spoiling the plot.

1025
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.159
But Vicky has...

1026
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:30.659
A little Chumbly...

1027
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:32.280
Vicky has a prisoner.

1028
00:48:32.340 --> 00:48:34.380
Oh, she calls him Zombo.

1029
00:48:35.219 --> 00:48:40.619
To whom she tells a story and the story relates who the prisoner

1030
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:42.300
is, but the framing material.

1031
00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.260
She and Troilus are safe and she is living as Cressida and they're

1032
00:48:46.260 --> 00:48:47.460
very, very happy, et cetera, et cetera.

1033
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:48.300
That's lovely.

1034
00:48:48.300 --> 00:48:51.719
And I just say buggery needed to be seen because is this another

1035
00:48:51.719 --> 00:48:55.199
point where we just get rid of the Yunker companion in the most

1036
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:56.699
arseway.

1037
00:48:56.760 --> 00:48:57.539
It's terrible.

1038
00:48:57.659 --> 00:48:58.980
Really awful.

1039
00:48:59.039 --> 00:49:00.719
I think there are some good things about it.

1040
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:05.340
I do like the fact that we don't see it again.

1041
00:49:05.400 --> 00:49:06.000
Do you know what I mean?

1042
00:49:06.059 --> 00:49:07.800
That the doctor's quite upset by it.

1043
00:49:07.860 --> 00:49:11.039
We don't see their final scene. another one going Titanas.

1044
00:49:11.099 --> 00:49:15.960
And according to the, according to the recon, when Vicky comes

1045
00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:18.360
Vicky sort of bustles the doctor into the Tartar, something else

1046
00:49:18.360 --> 00:49:23.460
happens and then Vicky steps out of the TARDIS, hugs it.

1047
00:49:23.519 --> 00:49:26.519
She hugged she walks around the side of the ship and throws her

1048
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:29.639
arms around it and presses herself against it and walks off and

1049
00:49:29.639 --> 00:49:31.500
the doctor sort of pokes his head out and watches her go.

1050
00:49:31.559 --> 00:49:36.719
And then it takes off and with Stephen still expects her to be

1051
00:49:36.719 --> 00:49:36.900
there.

1052
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:42.539
Yeah, yeah, Stephen's unconscious and got blood poisoning from the

1053
00:49:42.539 --> 00:49:42.900
sword.

1054
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:48.059
But you see, I said this last time, and I'll say it again, unlike

1055
00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:51.480
Susan's departure, this feels more appropriate because it's

1056
00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:52.079
Vicky's choice.

1057
00:49:52.139 --> 00:49:55.440
It just seems like a choice that she would never make. though.

1058
00:49:55.500 --> 00:49:58.380
Like, because she's, you know, this modern future girl.

1059
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:01.139
Like, why does she want to go and live among the kind of...

1060
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:01.440
Yeah.

1061
00:50:01.500 --> 00:50:03.059
Yeah, doesn't she remember?

1062
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:05.099
Let's touch again on dental hygiene.

1063
00:50:05.159 --> 00:50:06.599
That's right.

1064
00:50:06.599 --> 00:50:07.619
And to some hilarious.

1065
00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:11.880
Well, there's a lot of things we, come on, would you really take

1066
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:13.380
for granted, modern medicine?

1067
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:13.920
Yeah, yeah.

1068
00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:16.920
I mean, that seems, that does, that seems strange and it does seem

1069
00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:20.579
like, it's like Mel going off with Sabalong glitz for no reason or

1070
00:50:20.579 --> 00:50:24.300
you know, like it is just one of those things where, uh, well, this

1071
00:50:24.300 --> 00:50:28.739
is her last story, but we're in ancient, uh, you know, Troy, what

1072
00:50:28.739 --> 00:50:29.820
are we going to do?

1073
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:30.960
We'll marry her off.

1074
00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:35.280
And they try and give her a hopeful ending at which all the big

1075
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:36.659
finish things have been hung upon.

1076
00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:38.820
But it is a little bit crummy.

1077
00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:40.019
So ad hoc and quick.

1078
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:41.639
Well we know the real reason, don't we?

1079
00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:45.179
Yeah, it's and it's so the real reason is so bizarre.

1080
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:48.059
And both sides tell the exact same story.

1081
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:52.980
Her contract ended at the end of the Mythmakers, which was the 1st

1082
00:50:52.980 --> 00:50:54.780
story in production for this block.

1083
00:50:54.840 --> 00:50:56.940
So they'd had a 2 or 4 week breaker, whatever.

1084
00:50:57.179 --> 00:51:03.119
Donald Tosh and John Wiles had been trailing for a few months.

1085
00:51:03.179 --> 00:51:06.900
Donald Tosh had been there longer and Maureen O'Brien was saying

1086
00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:10.679
to the production team, look, I don't think the part is stretching

1087
00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:12.239
my talents enough.

1088
00:51:12.300 --> 00:51:13.980
My end of my contract's coming up.

1089
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:17.760
I'm probably going to look for more work and that was her that was

1090
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:19.800
her final word on the matter before she went on holiday.

1091
00:51:19.860 --> 00:51:25.739
So when John Miles and Donald Tosh were working on their plan

1092
00:51:25.739 --> 00:51:26.400
going forward.

1093
00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:29.099
They sort of said, oh, well, do we still have Maureen?

1094
00:51:29.099 --> 00:51:32.880
And it's actually Donald Tosher said in interviews, he said to

1095
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:35.099
John Welles, oh, no, no, she's not happy.

1096
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:37.860
She doesn't want to be renewed for a contract, slightly da- da.

1097
00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:40.980
And then when she came back and got the script, she called up the

1098
00:51:40.980 --> 00:51:44.400
production office and Donald, you know, I've been written out.

1099
00:51:44.460 --> 00:51:47.099
We hadn't, we hadn't discussed, we hadn't decided.

1100
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:51.780
So, you know, she wasn't exactly pushed out because as far as the

1101
00:51:51.780 --> 00:51:55.260
production team knew, she wasn't happy, but at the same time, she's

1102
00:51:55.260 --> 00:51:57.480
kind of like, if I knew I was definitely going.

1103
00:51:57.539 --> 00:51:59.699
I wouldn't have gone off for a 4 week holiday.

1104
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:02.099
I would have gone off for a week's holiday and looked for work for

1105
00:52:02.099 --> 00:52:02.519
3 weeks.

1106
00:52:02.579 --> 00:52:05.820
But what I find really funny about it is.

1107
00:52:05.940 --> 00:52:12.420
Maureen O'Brien has actually, up to this point, had a really

1108
00:52:12.420 --> 00:52:14.579
strong run of stories for Vicki.

1109
00:52:14.639 --> 00:52:18.000
She's a very strong character in Galaxy 4.

1110
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:20.460
She's a very strong character in the time meddler.

1111
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:21.719
She's very strong in the chase.

1112
00:52:21.780 --> 00:52:23.219
She's very strong in the space museum.

1113
00:52:23.820 --> 00:52:27.300
And her character had just been getting stronger and stronger.

1114
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:31.860
So I do find it odd that she wasn't, for instance, as strong as

1115
00:52:31.860 --> 00:52:34.320
Barbara, but she was starting.

1116
00:52:34.739 --> 00:52:38.940
Oh, who was, but you know, she got the Ian part in Galaxy 4, you

1117
00:52:38.940 --> 00:52:41.820
know, she got the part of actually going to the alien spaceship to

1118
00:52:41.820 --> 00:52:45.119
look for help and, you know, she does, of course, get trapped in

1119
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:45.420
things.

1120
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:51.360
But it's just so odd because she was far stronger written as a

1121
00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:54.239
character than Susan, but still wasn't satisfied with them.

1122
00:52:54.300 --> 00:52:57.659
She was strongly written for, but the lines were not.

1123
00:52:57.719 --> 00:53:00.539
You know, the other sources, right on the production, have been

1124
00:53:00.539 --> 00:53:02.340
far more explicit as to what really happened.

1125
00:53:02.340 --> 00:53:03.659
No, do you want it?

1126
00:53:03.719 --> 00:53:06.599
No, I just wanted to say that I didn't think being superb and

1127
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:10.260
truly fabulous was likely to stretch Maureen O'Brien as an actress

1128
00:53:10.260 --> 00:53:10.619
at all.

1129
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:14.340
She's just awesome, you know, but she's still not enough.

1130
00:53:14.400 --> 00:53:15.599
Hugely skilled.

1131
00:53:15.659 --> 00:53:18.840
It's a good writer. a really good writer on her own bench if you

1132
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:20.760
look at the novels that she's written.

1133
00:53:20.820 --> 00:53:21.780
She writes crime fiction?

1134
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:22.380
Yeah, yeah.

1135
00:53:22.440 --> 00:53:23.460
And she does really well at it.

1136
00:53:23.519 --> 00:53:26.219
No, other sources have said, I won't bother naming them.

1137
00:53:26.280 --> 00:53:28.199
You can look them up if you want to go there, is that she was

1138
00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:28.559
fired.

1139
00:53:28.619 --> 00:53:34.559
And she was fired by John Wiles, which is pretty extraordinary

1140
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:38.340
when you look at the 1st act of a new producer replacing the

1141
00:53:38.340 --> 00:53:42.360
youngest and 1st woman producer at her level on the BBC, is to

1142
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:46.199
sack the young juvenile, the juvenile female lead for being, in

1143
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:47.940
quotation marks, to upper tea.

1144
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:51.840
She and Billy were both, um, a legend hazard, um, and it's

1145
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:52.559
recorded.

1146
00:53:52.619 --> 00:53:56.099
It's not just fan hearsay, complaining about the lines in Galaxy 4

1147
00:53:56.400 --> 00:54:00.059
scripts like a lot of scripts go at this time were going through

1148
00:54:00.059 --> 00:54:02.760
many different variations before it got to the screen.

1149
00:54:02.820 --> 00:54:03.719
A lot of rewrites.

1150
00:54:03.780 --> 00:54:06.239
Tosh had to do a lot of rewriting on pretty much everything he

1151
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:06.480
got.

1152
00:54:06.539 --> 00:54:11.039
It's the same thing that Russell and Davis and Moffatt have been

1153
00:54:11.039 --> 00:54:11.340
saying.

1154
00:54:11.400 --> 00:54:13.559
I guess that's just the process of a show like this.

1155
00:54:13.619 --> 00:54:14.820
A lot of writing goes on.

1156
00:54:14.880 --> 00:54:19.380
But the actual dialogue was taking 2nd or 3rd point to the plot

1157
00:54:19.380 --> 00:54:24.900
and Billy was becoming increasingly, um, some say erratic, I think

1158
00:54:24.900 --> 00:54:27.360
he was just getting more caring or more nervous about how his

1159
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:29.760
character was being treated and starting to notice that perhaps

1160
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:31.739
he's being being given less to do.

1161
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:33.719
So he was very vocal about that.

1162
00:54:33.780 --> 00:54:35.880
But Maureen was backing up.

1163
00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:39.659
So we hear backing up Billy and then also saying, no, these lines

1164
00:54:39.659 --> 00:54:40.440
are absolute rubbish.

1165
00:54:40.500 --> 00:54:42.900
John Miles said, well, I don't want any conjecture.

1166
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:44.460
I don't want any disagreement from the floor.

1167
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:45.300
She's out.

1168
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:50.519
Because she is like there, she tells the stories, like on DVD

1169
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:54.539
extras and stuff about like her role, sometimes to sort of calm

1170
00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:58.679
Bill down and make it, yeah, like make it possible for him to go

1171
00:54:58.679 --> 00:55:00.300
on when he was in a sort of crummy mood.

1172
00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:05.880
And so like you have this, I mean, season 3 is the story of

1173
00:55:05.880 --> 00:55:08.760
Hartnell being eased out.

1174
00:55:08.820 --> 00:55:13.139
And, you know, in an adventures in an adventure in space and time

1175
00:55:13.139 --> 00:55:14.039
is that the right order?

1176
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:14.760
Yes.

1177
00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:15.360
Yes.

1178
00:55:15.420 --> 00:55:16.800
At adventure in space and time.

1179
00:55:17.579 --> 00:55:23.760
It's the story of all of his friends going away and Maureen's

1180
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:24.719
going to be the last one there.

1181
00:55:24.780 --> 00:55:29.519
So Billy Support, the person who was able to wrangle Billy because

1182
00:55:29.519 --> 00:55:33.659
he genuinely liked her and that chemistry is so visible on the

1183
00:55:33.659 --> 00:55:33.840
screen.

1184
00:55:33.960 --> 00:55:37.079
Like, this is his last support going away.

1185
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:37.980
Verity's gone.

1186
00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:39.480
You know, Jackie's gone.

1187
00:55:39.539 --> 00:55:41.099
William Russell's gone.

1188
00:55:41.159 --> 00:55:43.619
Peter Purvis was a good mate.

1189
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:45.780
So, you know, they actually had this really nice fraternity

1190
00:55:45.780 --> 00:55:46.860
purpose of suit.

1191
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:47.880
Yeah, yeah.

1192
00:55:47.940 --> 00:55:51.239
And their relationship, their relationship is quite good, but

1193
00:55:51.239 --> 00:55:56.940
essentially, we've now got sort of nothing left in the regular

1194
00:55:56.940 --> 00:55:59.400
cast that links us to the beginning of the program.

1195
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:01.739
You know, like Bill and the police box.

1196
00:56:01.800 --> 00:56:04.260
Yeah, yeah. you know, Vicky's clearly just a sort of replacement

1197
00:56:04.260 --> 00:56:04.860
for Susan.

1198
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:08.219
And as you said, you know, despite the fact that she's from future

1199
00:56:08.219 --> 00:56:12.659
England, she's sort of essentially a contemporary character.

1200
00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:17.699
Now we're going to go into this very strange run of episodes where

1201
00:56:17.699 --> 00:56:23.099
nothing has anything very much to do with present day earth and

1202
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:28.380
it's all going to start to go horribly, horribly wrong. before?

1203
00:56:28.380 --> 00:56:29.880
horribly, horribly wrong.

1204
00:56:29.940 --> 00:56:34.019
And it is, you know, this is where Billy's, we're going to just

1205
00:56:34.019 --> 00:56:37.980
slowly watch him being eased out by the production team.

1206
00:56:38.039 --> 00:56:40.380
He gets a bit triumphant before he goes, though.

1207
00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:43.139
I think he's one of those people that really triumphs under

1208
00:56:43.139 --> 00:56:48.719
adversity and you get some of Bill's best acting when he's really

1209
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.360
put under pressure, as we're probably going to see with the next

1210
00:56:51.360 --> 00:56:51.659
story.

1211
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:52.980
Yes, indeed.

1212
00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:55.260
And the 1st the 1st pressure point.

1213
00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:58.619
So this will just be our little segue before we cut to the credits

1214
00:56:58.619 --> 00:56:58.920
I think.

1215
00:56:58.980 --> 00:57:02.400
Our 1st pressure point is going to be the new companion of

1216
00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.340
Catarina, our 1st historical companion.

1217
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:06.059
Is your companion?

1218
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:17.460
Well, I think we'll let's spend the next hour and a half talking

1219
00:57:17.460 --> 00:57:20.280
about whether she and Sarah Kingdom a companion.

1220
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:21.360
Well, Lincoln, you're missing.

1221
00:57:21.420 --> 00:57:23.400
That's...

1222
00:57:23.400 --> 00:57:26.460
So I think that's going to be the topic of next episode, maybe.

1223
00:57:26.460 --> 00:57:27.900
I cut you off there.

1224
00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:32.280
So that's our 1st episode of season three.

1225
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:39.239
We'll see you back here for next week, which is clearly going to

1226
00:57:39.239 --> 00:57:40.980
be a rather heated discussion.

1227
00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:42.000
Good night.

1228
00:57:42.059 --> 00:57:44.760
Good night. good everything.

1229
00:57:49.440 --> 00:57:52.860
You've been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan

1230
00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:54.780
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1231
00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:58.139
This episode, Nichols, dear listener, was reported on Sunday, the

1232
00:57:58.139 --> 00:57:59.099
10th of August.

1233
00:57:59.159 --> 00:58:01.619
The next episode will be released on August 31st.

1234
00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:04.619
You can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through

1235
00:58:04.619 --> 00:58:07.980
entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTV podcast on Twitter.

1236
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:10.320
It's too late to say whoa to the podcast.

1237
00:58:10.380 --> 00:58:10.980
It's already over.

1238
00:58:18.119 --> 00:58:21.239
So, um, uh, Galaxy 4.

1239
00:58:22.019 --> 00:58:27.840
Now, that sound, that sound you hear, we've slightly changed

1240
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:32.400
location for this episode, and we're actually recording at

1241
00:58:32.400 --> 00:58:36.780
Richard's place, and Richard has a beautiful Siamese Burmese

1242
00:58:36.780 --> 00:58:37.139
class.

1243
00:58:37.199 --> 00:58:40.920
Lots of blue point Siamese steadfast killer.

1244
00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:43.619
Novice Haim, is it called?

1245
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:44.460
Yeah, sure.

1246
00:58:44.460 --> 00:58:47.340
Called Soutec, the Distroacher, I believe.

1247
00:58:47.400 --> 00:58:51.059
There's a reason there's a tile floor in this place. destroyed

1248
00:58:51.059 --> 00:58:51.480
everything else.

1249
00:58:51.539 --> 00:58:56.699
So if you do hear the occasional mewing or howling, do not adjust

1250
00:58:56.699 --> 00:58:57.000
your set.

1251
00:58:57.059 --> 00:58:58.800
Yeah, that'll be you, won't it?

1252
00:58:58.860 --> 00:58:59.340
Yes, exactly.

1253
00:58:59.400 --> 00:59:02.280
Or possibly Nathan, who's allergic to cats.

1254
00:59:02.340 --> 00:59:03.480
Go away.

1255
00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:07.380
We might just pause here.

1256
00:59:07.380 --> 00:59:12.659
I had comedic value, but just that bit too long. cutting this

1257
00:59:12.659 --> 00:59:12.900
out.

1258
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:14.219
Come on, sweetheart, you guys.

1259
00:59:14.699 --> 00:59:17.039
She's a very beautiful cat.

1260
00:59:17.099 --> 00:59:17.639
Yeah.

1261
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:21.239
I don't actually like hats, but I just don't think I'm going to

1262
00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:22.260
make it to the end of the year.

1263
00:59:22.380 --> 00:59:23.579
Don't need to...

1264
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:25.500
Everyone would have lost interest to the podcast.

1265
00:59:25.559 --> 00:59:26.760
Okay, stop going on.

1266
00:59:26.820 --> 00:59:28.079
Okay, I'll be back in the list.