WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:27:02

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From the team that brought you, 8 episodes of Season 15, including Underworld.

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On the writers who wrote out Sarah Jane Smith in such style, from the creators of Omega, and the best writers of the brigadier ever comes, the Armageddon factor, the conclusion to the key to time.

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What could possibly go wrong with that?

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who knows the secret of the Grads.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm Bob Baker and Dave Martin's greatest fan.

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Not.

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It's time to finish the key to time on the planet of Atreos.

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Oh, and also the planet of Zeops.

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Oh, and also the planet of evil, which is oddly shaped like a bunch of eggs stuck to a ball.

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It's the Armageddon factor.

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Philip Xander points out that, obviously, if you have a giant complex season long arc that's got to pay off at the end of the year in a really spectacular way to justify everything that's come before it, you turn to Bob Baker and Dave Martin and get them to ride it.

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What have I done to deserve this?

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This is mine.

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But yes, Nathan and Philip.

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What in Blaze as well?

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Anthony Reid and Graham Williams thinking.

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I just think they don't think they're banned.

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Do you know what I mean?

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Why do they keep coming back to them?

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They do a reliably crap job every time they're employed.

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As I have said before, and I would say it again, they managed to write probably 2 decent episodes of Doctor Who, every season that they write.

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And now they've been given 6 episodes this year.

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Six episodes at the end of a season when there is no budget.

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We have no location filming at all.

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Last year, they delivered 8 tantalising episodes that were all what, indoors, and didn't they turn out spectacularly?

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I actually don't think they managed their 2 episodes this season, I actually think they're coming under that.

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It might be half a good episode in here, maybe.

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You've gotta find it.

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Like, I'm not saying, like, it's 2 episodes of the whole episode.

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It's like 5 minutes in episode one maybe.

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Yeah, that is correct.

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That is these people deliver underworld.

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They delivered the invisible enemy.

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The realistic scenarios of the hand of fear, right?

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They did the most wonderful job with the brigadies character in the 3 doctors.

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Check.

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What, what, what are they thinking?

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Anthony, I saw the um, Dr. Anthony redid an underworld.

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And he was going about all this wonderful script that was just, you know, in the drawer, ready to go.

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No, it's in the drawer at the bottom of the drawer for a reason.

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In fact, this is this does all of the things that they do badly.

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So one of the things that they do badly.

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And even in their 1st story, which was claws of axos, which I think is pretty good, you know, is all the characters are suddenly giant blustering caricatures, like the brigadier ends up being in the 3 doctors.

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And so you get Astra, who's a noble princess and you get Marak, who's like incredibly wet, and you get comedy posh guy, Shap, and you get the marshal.

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And, you know, like none of them are any more than one note.

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They're all just terribly boring.

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And then you get, you know, they're throwing a whole heap of ideas against the wall, playing with them for 10 minutes and then abandoning them.

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You get something about television, something about the way oratory is used to justify war.

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You get the military stalemate, you get a, you get a computer general, you get Drax, you get shrinking, you get hallucinations, you know, you get a time loop that stretches, you get mind control devices, all of these things.

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And they're all in support of a plot where people just run around from place to place going through that wretched transmat thing over a gang.

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Oh, we're jumping ahead, but Nathan, 0 my goodness.

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Like you've come up with, that's a wonderful list because all I thought is that they went in and they pitched at me.

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They said, well, we've got this wonderful idea, you know, to sum up the key to time.

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We've got these 2 warring planets, and we're going to have the Black Guardians agent just sit there for 1000s and 1000s of years, not doing anything and waiting for the doctor to collect all the other pieces, and then he'll just come in and just go, the key to time is mine.

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Mine, mine, End of cliphanger.

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Well, look at...

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Can we start the beginning?

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That's start the beginning.

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I had not seen this for a long time not this time round.

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A few years ago, I actually bought the American box head.

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And then it started, and there's this soap opera thing going on.

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Young men are dying for, it says the woman.

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I'll bet they are, ducky.

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Yeah, I know how they feel.

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Isn't she wearing something out of the invisible enemy?

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Yeah, I think she's wearing one of the bio nurses outfits.

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I'm going, what is this?

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What is this?

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The party would have been more entertaining than this 6 episode that we ended up?

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watching this soap opera?

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Well, in the disconsinuity guide, Cornell Day and topping suggests that would have been a, you know, like a terribly effective satire, had the rest of the production not also been just sort of incredibly poorly acted and sort of cheap looking and dreadful.

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So, yeah, it does fall a little bit flat.

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I mean, there is, you know, there's some attempt to sort of paint the war, but they don't have the money for it, and they've got a few cardboard corridors and a few expres lying groaning on the floor, but it's not a very interesting portrayal of, you know, a war going on for ages and ages.

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It's so great.

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It's so gray on actress.

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It's so beige and not inhabited on the os.

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And then it's so like we're in the caves on the planet of evil.

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Which isn't a planet at all. something evil.

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Oh, but look, we're in, it's very stagey.

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Like the way it's staged with the whole set and the marsh were talking to the mirror and sort of talking out to the audience, which I assume is some sort of big screen that he's looking at how the war's going or something like that.

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Am I wrong or not?

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Yeah, you do get a few reverse under the shoulder shots of the screen and the graphics on there. 6 ships.

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I actually quite like the marshal.

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I actually quite like his, actually quite like his portrayal and that sort of thing.

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It just gets very boring.

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He's got a good voice.

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Yeah, it's John Woodvine. you know, he's always, he's always good and he's always entertaining.

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And, you know, before the end of his life, he'll turn up in Poirot and Marble and things.

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I've been very quiet, haven't I?

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Yeah, you've just been watching it.

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You know what I'm going to say, don't you?

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You like this one?

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Oh my god.

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Mary Tan in this is the hottest thing ever.

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That woman in that white dress is just like, 0 my goodness.

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I mean, oh my goodness.

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I have to agree with you.

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And Mary is one of the major saving graces of the story.

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Despite the fact you can tell she's incredibly bored and she's just waiting for it all to wrap up.

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No, you know, I completely agree, but the story is cheap and it's tawdry and it's cliche and it is problem filled.

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But I can't help but love it.

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Really?

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So tell us about it.

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You know, I, but the thing is, I love it as a popcorn ironing movie doctor who, you know, it's not going to win any awards.

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It doesn't belong in the top 10.

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It doesn't belong in the top 100, top 150 might be pushing it.

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But it is entertaining.

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And I think for once, the Bristol boys have tried to stick with one plot.

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And it's the plot of the war between the 2 planets.

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The main problem is, they have enough plot for four episodes.

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Correct.

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And it's a 6 parter.

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I mean, they really needed to do 4 episodes and then have 2 episodes of wrap-up with the whole season, rather than this, you know, at the beginning of the season, we had like a scene with the White Guardian, and at the end of the season, we've got a scene with the Black Guardian to wrap up the whole thing.

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I think you really needed more.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think, I think, but I think the episodes which don't have any plot are the middle two.

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They are the worst.

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I mean, I actually came into this thinking this is really going to be a hard slog, and it is in the middle, and I had to watch it, like, you may remember how I used to watch the Pertury 6 parties by watching it, like, one.

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Well, two... once every couple of months.

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Well, once in a while and then coming back to it.

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And I think for 1978. that's not acceptable.

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Yeah.

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The last time we had a story that was set all indoors.

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A 6 parter was walked.

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The monster of Peloton.

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And look how that turned out.

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And the one before that that had limited location where it was the planet of the Daleks. you know what I think of that.

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Yeah, I mean, there's very little prefilmed in this.

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There's the model sequences.

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The bloody stupid fire furnace walking sequence.

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Yeah.

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Oh, I don't know this with canine.

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That is so dumb.

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Was that the point of that?

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They just put him in there.

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He's going to fry.

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And then they cut to the doctor going, it's like they don't know how to write for K9, but they wrote his 1st story.

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Yeah, they created this.

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I think they want to.

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I think they want to give him a cliffhanger or some peril or something like that.

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But it doesn't end up being a cliffhanger.

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Although, we can look at this as fans with encyclopaedic knowledge and our scarves and our sonic screwdriver replicas and what have you.

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When I was watching this with Rod, who's not a huge fan.

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He doesn't remember season 18 all that much.

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So he couldn't remember how the 2nd canome was written out.

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So for him, not having the knowledge of what comes afterwards, he thought this could have been the end of canine.

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They would never have done that, though.

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Wouldn't they someone, though?

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Because the kiddies, you know, the kids love canine. they're not going to melt canine down.

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Well, the thing is, he's already had a pretty rough time of it this year.

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You know, in Pirate Planet, he gets shot and temporarily disabled, in stones of blood, he gets whacked around, in Android Atari gets left in a boat.

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Yeah, I was sad about that.

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Yeah He sort of does that.

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He does that plaintively here on the conveyor belt.

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Land at the sheepish line.

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You remember Lambert the sheepish lion?

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Okay, going back to episode one.

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We're also introduced to Princess Astra.

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As a kid, I thought astronaut's fantastic.

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Like, we had to hold an AstraCar.

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We had a car called Princess Astro, my sister's car.

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And and and I thought she was just so wonderful.

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It was like ABBA, like she was the blonde one and then the dark one was very dark one.

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But can I just say?

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And I think that Lala Ward is pretty crappy in this.

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She's terrible.

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The 1st 4 episodes.

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She's really not great.

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She doesn't have any presence at all.

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And it's like, I don't really care what happens to her.

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But later on in the story, when she's actually with Tom and Mary in those sequences that she begins to lift, you can actually see her lifting to those 2 their performances.

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It's actually quite interesting to see, and I can possibly see then why Mary suggested her for the role and thus.

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Oh, did Mary suggest her for the role?

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Yeah, yeah.

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So Graham Williams had another casting crisis at the end of this.

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We have to talk about that next week because it's terrible.

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But this end of it is Mary Tamb was doing the same thing Louise Jameson did, which is halfway through the season.

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She said, look, I don't want to continue next year, thus giving Graham Williams plenty of time to figure out how to write her out.

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Once again, Graham Williams didn't believe her, like he didn't believe Louise Jameson.

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So, We ended up with this situation where Graham Williams was constantly begging her to stay and then coupled with that.

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Tom was starting to become more demanding and he was saying, I'll only stay next year if I have script control.

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This is where he came up with the idea of the talking cabbage on his shoulder.

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And Graham McDonald, who we heard last week, was ordering less horror and less comedy in the series.

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Graham McDonald actually ordered Graham Williams to fire Tom Baker.

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But at the end of this season, at the end of this season, let him finish out the season because that was the end of his contract, the end of this year, and then fire him.

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When Armageddon factor went before the cameras, Tom was not signed up for season 17.

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Wow.

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He did not officially sign a contract until after filming had finished.

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For one year or for 2 or for what?

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I believe after this, he signed up on a year-by-year basis. imagine if they hadn't contracted here.

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And then we'd start, we'd have to start a new season with a completely new doctor.

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With no regeneration.

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Peter Davidson in a league in Tom's costume, slamming his head into the console.

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It would have been it would have been a disaster.

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Now, not foreshadowing at all.

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Now, the thing is, they did come to, if you'd like a gentleman's agreement before signing the contract, that Tom would continue, which is why they didn't film any sort of death scene for Tom or whatever.

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But they had to think about Mary's replacement, 1st of all.

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And I think it was in the BBC canteen of the final filming session.

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So you had Tom Baker, Mary Tam, Lull Award, Graham Williams, Andrew Reed, Michael Hazel, sitting around a table, and Graham Williams publicly, still begging Mary Tam to stay, and her saying, no, no, really.

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I've done it for a year.

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The parts don't become weak. you know, the other week I was screaming at a bloke in a green costume.

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She probably wanted to return to acting.

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Yes.

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And he said, but who am I going to get to replace you?

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And she said, well, what about Lala?

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Lala's been really wonderful.

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You're going to say, what about John Woodfall?

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wig.

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You know, you'd be great.

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And she said, you can let down Lala's hair.

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She looks very different with her hair down than her hair up.

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You can just, and then she became aware that no one on the table was making eye contact and she's like, right, I'm not the 1st person to suggest this.

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And so that's when she really laid it on.

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No, you should absolutely get it in to try and get them to get Lala, which indeed we'll discover next year that they did.

217
00:14:57.539 --> 00:15:04.559
But it's interesting that Mary Mary stated that, you know, had she known they were going to film in Paris, she might have stayed on.

218
00:15:04.620 --> 00:15:10.500
And also, had they asked her to come back for a generation scene, she might have actually done it, right?

219
00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:11.519
They never asked her.

220
00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:12.179
Yeah.

221
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:13.200
I mean, that's insanity.

222
00:15:13.259 --> 00:15:27.059
This thing where, you know, they're taking great care with Joe and Sarah, but I don't think Graham Williams takes particularly good care about who the companions are or creating a coherent story for them or anything like that.

223
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.000
And that's why Leila's leaving is so perfunctory.

224
00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:35.159
And that's why, you know, we don't, he doesn't he just doesn't really care about them.

225
00:15:35.220 --> 00:15:44.220
You know, he wants a lead woman in the cast who can do wisecracking and split the plot, but he's not very interested in making them a person.

226
00:15:44.220 --> 00:15:54.659
And the charm of the companions in the Williams era, I think, is entirely down to the performance of the 3 actors who are all just varying degrees of fantastic.

227
00:15:55.019 --> 00:16:01.919
Well, I'll agree with you about the actresses having to bring something to the table to make the characters more than what they are.

228
00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:10.019
I think I do think that Leila is not great in season 15, the way that she's written and Louise does a great performance, but the character's all over the place.

229
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:12.059
I think Mary does the best of the 3 of them.

230
00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.120
I think this year she is, you know, she's really consistent throughout.

231
00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:20.940
You guys get to discuss Lila next year, but I think Lila takes a while to find what she wants to do with it.

232
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:28.559
And when she finds what she wants to do, but she does a great job, but I still think it does take a few stories, whereas I think of the 3 grand whims, female leads.

233
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:32.519
The one thing I've discovered is that Mary Tams Romana is my favourite by far.

234
00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:33.539
Oh definitely.

235
00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:34.919
I'm not surprised to hear it.

236
00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:39.840
I love Lala and I think she brings something to the table that Mary doesn't.

237
00:16:39.899 --> 00:16:47.399
There's a real sort of impish fun, which is a nice break after all the ironic detachment.

238
00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:48.600
Not in this though.

239
00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:49.500
No.

240
00:16:49.559 --> 00:16:51.419
She's not impish She's terrible in this.

241
00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:59.340
And maybe it's because she's paired up with maybe the worst actor to appear ever on Doctor Who since Jenny Lair.

242
00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.879
He may actually be up for the eponymous journey Laird award.

243
00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:05.700
The shocking guard that she's paired up.

244
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:06.539
Oh, him.

245
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:06.900
Right.

246
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:07.380
Yes.

247
00:17:07.980 --> 00:17:09.480
God, he's really bad.

248
00:17:09.539 --> 00:17:13.079
He's either John Cannon or Harry Fielder.

249
00:17:13.140 --> 00:17:13.920
They are the 2 guards in this.

250
00:17:14.039 --> 00:17:14.880
Oh, yes.

251
00:17:14.940 --> 00:17:16.559
In episode one, I've got a note here, I'm I think.

252
00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:19.559
The guard is rubbish, who accompanies company's Princess Astra.

253
00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:25.920
Yeah, so maybe she's acting down to his level at the beginning and she starts to lift it when she's in scenes with Tom and Mary later.

254
00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:33.480
Well, the thing is, like, at the end of episode one, when she goes into the room, she's clearly playing it, like she knows that she's being led into a trap.

255
00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.339
Yeah, none of that makes any sense.

256
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:36.180
Yeah.

257
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:42.779
Well, the thing is, it only makes sense if the guard is playing up to his dialogue because the guard's dialogue is, please, princess, I'm sorry, you must go in.

258
00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.740
Like, so obviously the guard's in fear for his wife if she doesn't go in and that's why she does it.

259
00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.799
But of course, he expresses no fear or emotion whatsoever.

260
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:55.380
So I think her performance in that is fine, but she's acting to something that's not happening.

261
00:17:55.440 --> 00:18:00.359
And of course, this is where my joke about gurads comes in earlier.

262
00:18:00.420 --> 00:18:01.859
Yeah, what was that?

263
00:18:01.920 --> 00:18:11.039
The designer for this episode, Michael Birdle, costume designer, received a script and started designing the monsters.

264
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:19.619
And so he came to the production meeting and says, oh, look, I've got these monsters and they're 8 foot tall and they're really scary and the director's like, I'm sorry, monsters?

265
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.099
They're the shadows men, but you know, they're just sort of half maskings.

266
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.200
And he's like, no, but there was no description for them.

267
00:18:25.259 --> 00:18:26.099
So I just made it up.

268
00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:27.000
The gurads.

269
00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:30.000
And they grabbed the script and that's a typo.

270
00:18:30.059 --> 00:18:30.900
It's guards.

271
00:18:31.019 --> 00:18:32.160
Brilliant.

272
00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:38.400
So this poor designer put in all these hours designing, the Gurads is, you know, the next quarks or whatever.

273
00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:45.480
And yeah, they ended up just being guards with little neck dangly pens as they're communicators and things.

274
00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:51.299
So, presumably big finish plans are trilogy of stories about the gurads, you know, anything.

275
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:53.640
Featuring John Hurt and Jacqueline Pierce, that's correct.

276
00:18:53.700 --> 00:18:54.420
Yeah, cool.

277
00:18:54.420 --> 00:18:56.039
Back in episode one.

278
00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:03.599
The TARDIS, don't they send a missile to destroy the TARDIS and then the TARDIS immaterializes and the missile still gets destroyed.

279
00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:05.819
Like, that makes no sense to me.

280
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.220
Am I sure they did it.

281
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:14.099
They did it previously in the invasion and then subsequently in worries of the D. It's constantly happening.

282
00:19:14.220 --> 00:19:15.299
Yeah, yeah.

283
00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:18.240
The TARDIS disappears at the right moment.

284
00:19:18.299 --> 00:19:23.220
Just for the Miss Alter, touch the outer plasmic show and explode as the TARDIS fades away.

285
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:23.940
So thank you.

286
00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:24.779
So do with the hands.

287
00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:29.160
You've now explained that to me and that's something that I'd be happy about.

288
00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:30.059
I'm happy about that.

289
00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:33.240
It happens later on, I think, too, in time lash or something like that.

290
00:19:33.299 --> 00:19:34.799
And I kind of don't get it either.

291
00:19:34.859 --> 00:19:36.359
So, okay, thank you, Brendan.

292
00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:37.380
I feeling much wrong.

293
00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:46.740
Speaking of the TARDIS, though, the cliffhanger for episode one is such a cop out, because they're running down the corridor and Mary runs fabulously down the corridor with the phone.

294
00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:48.180
Please, that's fantastic.

295
00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:50.579
And then she gets the great cliffhanger.

296
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.559
The TARDIS, it's gone.

297
00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:58.200
And then the 1st line after that in episode 2 is bedded under all that rubble.

298
00:19:58.259 --> 00:19:59.220
It like, well that's not gone.

299
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:01.559
But then it turns out that, yes, it is gone.

300
00:20:01.619 --> 00:20:07.440
Because it turns up later on on Zeos with the planet of with the shadow. planet of things, isn't it?

301
00:20:07.500 --> 00:20:08.519
Yeah, it's on Zen?

302
00:20:08.579 --> 00:20:09.720
Or is it on the middle?

303
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:12.900
It's on Zeos at 1st because that's where the doctor gets interrogated.

304
00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.220
Yeah, it's on Zeos.

305
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:15.240
It's on Zeos.

306
00:20:15.299 --> 00:20:16.559
And then it goes to the...

307
00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:17.819
Can we talk about Zeos?

308
00:20:17.819 --> 00:20:21.480
and the disappearance of the Zeons, which is rather a metaphor with the audience?

309
00:20:21.539 --> 00:20:24.839
Well, apparently they weren't, they were going to exist.

310
00:20:24.900 --> 00:20:26.579
And then there were budget.

311
00:20:26.579 --> 00:20:33.599
Anthony Reid had to come back to the Bob Baker and Dave Martin and say, well, sorry, we don't have enough money. lose the zeons from Zeos.

312
00:20:33.660 --> 00:20:34.259
Yeah.

313
00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:35.579
And so we never find out what happened to them.

314
00:20:35.640 --> 00:20:36.900
There's no reason that they're not there.

315
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:37.559
No.

316
00:20:37.619 --> 00:20:38.759
I like the idea.

317
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:43.799
And I kind of wish it was in the script because of course, you know, they Drax installs mentalis.

318
00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:46.920
We're not up to Drax yet. but anyway, Jackson stalls mentalists.

319
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:51.900
And I rather like the idea that the zeons kind of say to him, oh, so you've installed this thing that's going to attack them.

320
00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.420
But they might attack us and blow up the planet.

321
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:56.039
Okay, everybody out. holiday.

322
00:20:56.099 --> 00:20:57.960
I think the whole planet's on holiday.

323
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:02.220
Just like all of the Marshall staff in episode 5 and six.

324
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.920
Have you noticed there's no one in the control room in the last 2 episodes?

325
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:06.180
on atrios?

326
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:07.980
It's really populating episode one.

327
00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:12.480
They had tracking shots of them and their gray jumpsuits and all that sort of thing and then they just all...

328
00:21:12.539 --> 00:21:18.000
So they can't even afford just sort of warm-blooded people in gray jumpsuits.

329
00:21:18.059 --> 00:21:19.140
That's right Really?

330
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:26.819
Or to explain how American chap in episode 6 understand all about what the key time is and a time loop and how all of that works.

331
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:30.299
Oh, well, you know, 65 episodes in, who cares?

332
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:32.339
We've forgotten what happened in episode two.

333
00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.440
Speaking of which, we'll just go back to episode 2.

334
00:21:34.559 --> 00:21:35.039
Oh, yeah.

335
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.500
So I didn't mind watching episode one.

336
00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:40.079
There's enough story there and you're sort of, what's going on?

337
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:44.579
And then you get into episode 2 and K9 has to survive the whole recycling thing, which is dire.

338
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:57.660
You suddenly get the foreshadowing of Princess Astra as a 67 of the key to time with them finding her little Coronet thing and using the tracer to sort of like, well, you know, come on, people.

339
00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:01.019
Come on, Romana. like surely you can work it out.

340
00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:07.559
But then you also get like, when a mushroom looks in the mirror and because the doctor must not die. yet.

341
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:09.720
And that little thing on his neck and that sort of thing.

342
00:22:09.779 --> 00:22:15.119
I'm thinking, and as a kid, I kind of thought, that's sort of very like the master used to control people, you know?

343
00:22:15.180 --> 00:22:16.980
And I know it's not.

344
00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:18.599
Did you think it was the master?

345
00:22:18.660 --> 00:22:20.220
I thought, well, maybe it's the master.

346
00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:22.619
I mean, I didn't know anything about, what was that other story?

347
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:24.180
The deadly assassin.

348
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:25.500
Sorry, I'd forgotten about that.

349
00:22:25.980 --> 00:22:34.140
So, yeah, it's all very stagey still, and I'm still enjoying episode two. besides the canine thing, which I think is a bit rubbish.

350
00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:43.920
It's a lovely conversation, the doctor and Romana about Zeos and the marshal. they keep pulling to one side and they have their little tete a tete together. you know what I'm talking about?

351
00:22:43.980 --> 00:22:52.200
So there's enough that's going on there that I quite like, but I just wanted to say that the marshal already makes no sense at this point in the story.

352
00:22:52.259 --> 00:22:57.660
And so he's trying to kill the doctor and then, like, mere moments later.

353
00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:03.359
He's the doctor's best friend and he's buddying up to him and wanting some help with the war.

354
00:23:03.420 --> 00:23:05.160
Well, because the shadows told him to.

355
00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:14.880
I know, but I mean, yeah, like he's mind controlled and so he has absolutely no kind of coherent personality or motivation or anything.

356
00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:18.539
I just think it's giantly messy and sort of plot driven.

357
00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.660
You know, there's no real reason for any of the things that happen.

358
00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.559
It doesn't worry me that he goes from one to the other.

359
00:23:25.619 --> 00:23:30.119
The doctor works out something not right, you know, that sort of thing.

360
00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:32.039
So yes, it is plot driven and that sort of thing.

361
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:34.079
I guess we're getting from A to B to C.

362
00:23:34.140 --> 00:23:37.500
But there's so much getting from A to B to C.

363
00:23:37.559 --> 00:23:38.160
Do you know what I mean?

364
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.740
Like it's, the whole thing is such a dull runaround.

365
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.200
And there's no real progression of anything.

366
00:23:43.259 --> 00:23:47.339
But at this point, 2 episodes in, it's just about holding it together.

367
00:23:47.400 --> 00:23:47.880
It's okay.

368
00:23:47.940 --> 00:23:48.359
Yeah, yeah.

369
00:23:48.420 --> 00:23:49.680
It's about to fall to pieces.

370
00:23:49.740 --> 00:23:51.359
But at this point, I'm still going with it.

371
00:23:51.420 --> 00:23:52.440
You know, I'm still going with it.

372
00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:56.339
You know, when we've got their battle fleet of 6 ships going down to three.

373
00:23:56.400 --> 00:23:58.380
They're going, is this for real?

374
00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:00.839
Like, is that really a clever plot point or is that just stupid?

375
00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:02.160
Oh, it's boring.

376
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:03.960
It's just a way of feeling in air time?

377
00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:04.680
Just dots.

378
00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:05.940
Just dots on the screen.

379
00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:07.259
They're playing asteroids.

380
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:13.619
That's what it is So if we get to the end of the episode, the doctor goes into this transmit thing.

381
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:16.619
And doesn't Paul Mary Tend have to try and run for the trans mat?

382
00:24:16.680 --> 00:24:17.880
It's a trap.

383
00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:19.619
Yes, doesn't she say that?

384
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:21.420
And he hears it and then disappears.

385
00:24:21.480 --> 00:24:31.140
That's right, but she doesn't get to it in time because she has to do some sort of stage acting because the door will only close this slow, like so slowly and she's going, you know, slow running.

386
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:33.420
Like the Ogons in Day of the Daleks.

387
00:24:33.539 --> 00:24:36.480
Yeah, she sort of gets to it when it's still about a foot open, you know?

388
00:24:36.539 --> 00:24:37.440
ridiculous.

389
00:24:37.500 --> 00:24:40.140
And there's a slightly different reprise too, between episodes too.

390
00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:43.259
There's no doctor in part 3 mini part three.

391
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:48.240
Yeah, and you don't get the crash zoom on Mary Tam going, doctor.

392
00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:50.759
Which is a bit of a shame, you know?

393
00:24:50.819 --> 00:24:53.579
There's always room for a cross zoom of Mary Tan.

394
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:57.000
Every shot in this story should be a crash zoom of Mary Tann.

395
00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:58.559
I agree.

396
00:24:58.559 --> 00:24:59.099
They're much better.

397
00:24:59.220 --> 00:25:00.299
Now, the Shadow.

398
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.960
He was not the master, but the agent to the Black Guardian.

399
00:25:04.019 --> 00:25:05.279
He has 2 noses.

400
00:25:05.339 --> 00:25:06.119
Yes, he does.

401
00:25:06.180 --> 00:25:08.039
One nose on top of the other.

402
00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:10.559
The actor's nose and then the skull head nose.

403
00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:16.859
I think he looks pretty good, actually, and he has a great voice, but he's so generic.

404
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:27.839
I mean, he's just sort of terribly boring, and part of it is the arc, you know, which is presented in its least subtle way as a sort of battle between good and evil.

405
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:33.240
You know, we've got to get the key to time and give it to the good guy, so the evil guy doesn't get hold of it.

406
00:25:33.299 --> 00:25:35.339
You know, all of that's sort of very boring.

407
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:37.319
And so the show can't help but be boring.

408
00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:44.940
I mean, you complained earlier, Todd, that he'd come up with the idea of just sitting there waiting for the doctor to turn up with the key.

409
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:50.940
I actually think that was a good way of keeping the Black Guardian out of the plot of any of the previous story.

410
00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:54.539
Well, I mean, that's a good point, Nathan.

411
00:25:54.599 --> 00:26:00.779
Otherwise, he might have had like the doctor versus some sort of agent, but yeah, there's no agents.

412
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:04.440
Like they flirt with the idea very briefly in rebus operation, don't they?

413
00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:06.359
Yeah, and Stones of Blood.

414
00:26:06.420 --> 00:26:09.359
Saire implies that she might know what's going on.

415
00:26:09.359 --> 00:26:11.039
It doesn't say it overtly.

416
00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:12.720
That never really occurred to me.

417
00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:16.319
Like as a kid or even now, like, you know, that they could have put an agent in there.

418
00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:18.000
Like it just, he just sits there.

419
00:26:18.119 --> 00:26:20.099
And he literally, is the guy really old?

420
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.019
Yeah, he just sits there.

421
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:25.619
I think it was, I think it was about 68 or something like that.

422
00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:26.759
He was quite old.

423
00:26:27.000 --> 00:26:30.599
You know, for, you know, 70 standards.

424
00:26:30.660 --> 00:26:31.440
That's quite old.

425
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.779
Yeah, I'm sure he was born in 1910 or something like that.

426
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:35.220
So it was 67, 68.

427
00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:37.440
Has he been in anything else doing home?

428
00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:37.859
What his name?

429
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:40.019
His name is William Squire.

430
00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:54.359
And he did have quite a long tradition, a bit like, he was a bit like Valentine Dahl, who will turn up at the end of this story as well, spoiler alert, but he had a long tradition of sort of playing characters with very mollifluous voices and what have you.

431
00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:55.859
But it's so boring.

432
00:26:55.920 --> 00:27:01.140
Like these surfaces where he just, he just talks about getting the key to time.

433
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:05.279
And then walks a bit and then sits a bit and then he has his pathetic guards.

434
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:09.900
Oh, it just drives my head in.

435
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:12.480
Three and four are really a struggle to get through.

436
00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:13.019
They really are.

437
00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:17.759
What about the long scene of canine and mentalism beeping at each other?

438
00:27:17.819 --> 00:27:19.920
Why does B9 spin around?

439
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:21.900
Like a spinning top.

440
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:22.440
It's insane.

441
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.900
And the doctor says I've never seen him do that before.

442
00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:27.000
Oh, no, not like 5 stories.

443
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:28.619
The pirate planet.

444
00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:30.720
There is one good thing about that scene.

445
00:27:30.779 --> 00:27:35.099
And it's something my brother actually picked up on once when we were watching it together.

446
00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:38.339
And that's when Romana's really intrigued by them.

447
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.700
Oh, it's like the dance of the bees. and Merritt's like, what are bees?

448
00:27:41.700 --> 00:27:43.740
Insects with stings, and it tells.

449
00:27:43.799 --> 00:27:46.799
The doctor is annoyed because someone is messing around with his dog.

450
00:27:46.859 --> 00:27:48.180
Really?

451
00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:52.200
Which, you know, which is a very human thing. like how dare you mess around with my dog.

452
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:56.880
So that's why he says that line, the B thing, like so snappy.

453
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:00.180
Because I've written in my notes here, why does Tom say it's so snappy?

454
00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:02.700
Sorry, guys, I just this is out there.

455
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:07.619
This is the sort of um, level of intellect you have on the podcast when I'm around.

456
00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:11.339
But yeah, that's why it's because someone is messing about with his dog.

457
00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:13.920
Maybe.

458
00:28:13.980 --> 00:28:16.500
Or, you know...

459
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:21.359
As Tom has always said, what he loved most about, the doctor was working with other actors.

460
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:23.099
What has he got for this recording session?

461
00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:32.700
He's got Merak and he's got Shap, who's played by David Harris, and by this point, David Harris retires from acting after the 1st studio recording block.

462
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.299
Like, is he being something else, like other shows?

463
00:28:36.299 --> 00:28:41.160
Yeah, yeah. his Doran in that terrible Blake 7 episode Moloch.

464
00:28:41.220 --> 00:28:42.059
Oh, okay.

465
00:28:42.059 --> 00:28:43.799
I knew I'd seen his Villa's friend.

466
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:44.759
He's a psychopath.

467
00:28:44.819 --> 00:28:45.420
Oh, of course.

468
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:46.740
Sorry, just sit down there.

469
00:28:46.799 --> 00:28:49.140
We're just, okay, I know who he is now.

470
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.599
Because his face was so recognisable.

471
00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:58.140
And I quite like the early stuff, but then it just, in episode four, he does some stupid, like, comedy prat form.

472
00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:58.799
Yeah.

473
00:28:58.859 --> 00:29:02.579
I'm just going, episode four, the whole thing is by episode four, everything's falling apart.

474
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:04.559
Who's the pilot in the ship?

475
00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:06.119
As Pat Gorman?

476
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:07.859
Pat watch.

477
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:09.299
He's been in a performance, isn't he?

478
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:11.700
Yes, he's like a Silurian or two.

479
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:15.599
Is it Romana that suggests to the doctor to put the key to time together with a fake piece?

480
00:29:15.660 --> 00:29:17.819
Yeah, I really like that, actually.

481
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:19.799
That's the one idea that I like.

482
00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:25.619
And I think it's the, it's very clever and it's like, you'd never have thought to come to me.

483
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:29.940
Like you put it together and then, you know, make a fake piece to have the whole thing going.

484
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.000
And I actually do like the whole idea of the countdown.

485
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:34.799
It's very monotonous.

486
00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:35.519
Yeah, yeah.

487
00:29:35.579 --> 00:29:37.980
No, I think that that's actually pretty good.

488
00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:42.059
And given that, you know, we're actually not going to see the key to time actually do anything.

489
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:46.619
You know, we've been searching for it all year and then it breaks.

490
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:50.160
The doctor breaks it, you know, before he gives it to the Guardian.

491
00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:52.140
There's no resolution, nothing's going to happen.

492
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.680
So we do at least get to see the key in action.

493
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.359
And that is quite fun.

494
00:29:57.420 --> 00:30:03.240
It is the most obvious use of polystyrene since some rocks fell on Joe's head on the planet Spirit on.

495
00:30:03.299 --> 00:30:05.339
It's really bad, polycyone, isn't it?

496
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:14.519
I do have to say that Bob Baker and Dave Martin miss a trick with the key of time because something we've always said about them is that they have so many ideas and they play with them and then they chuck them away.

497
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:28.319
When they put the key to time together, their only time for it is to throw around a time loop, you know, why not have some other time travel things in there, why not get the video disc player out and run some time backwards and things like that?

498
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:30.000
Could have been like another time monster.

499
00:30:30.059 --> 00:30:31.380
Yeah, why not?

500
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:35.400
Well, they had used time loops before back in the claws of Axel, which they wrote.

501
00:30:35.460 --> 00:30:38.099
So, you know, they're minding their own past, you know?

502
00:30:38.160 --> 00:30:39.839
Well, this is perhaps appropriate.

503
00:30:39.900 --> 00:30:44.099
Is it a good time to mention that this is the last time they write together on anything?

504
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:45.960
They fight, don't they?

505
00:30:46.019 --> 00:30:47.579
They have a lover's quarrel or something?

506
00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:52.619
Well, all the reports are that they just decided after 11 years to write separately.

507
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:58.680
And of course, Dave Martin is no longer with us, but Bob Baker says that there was never any animosity.

508
00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:01.920
It was just a mutual decision to dissolve the partnership.

509
00:31:01.980 --> 00:31:05.700
There is a solo story yet to come from...

510
00:31:05.700 --> 00:31:07.500
Bob Baker. that's right Which one is it?

511
00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:09.539
Nightmare of Eden.

512
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:10.740
That's actually not so bad.

513
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:11.460
Exactly.

514
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:12.900
That's a pretty reasonable script.

515
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:14.819
But, and I haven't said this for a while.

516
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:16.079
We're getting ahead of ourselves.

517
00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:17.460
Okay.

518
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:24.119
So going back to where we were in episode four, K9 gets his own little adventure to go on, which is boring as.

519
00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:31.859
We've got the Marshall on repeat, boring, but we do get the 2 Romanas together.

520
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:33.420
Well, not quite yet.

521
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:38.519
It's really weird seeing Mary Tan and Lala Ward together on screen.

522
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:42.539
It's just like Day of the Doctor.

523
00:31:42.599 --> 00:31:44.160
It's the day of Romana.

524
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:46.680
Only that it happened.

525
00:31:46.740 --> 00:31:49.259
But it is weird seeing them both together.

526
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:53.519
I just, it doesn't freak me out, but I just, it's just like, oh, it's a strange.

527
00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:54.180
It's just weird.

528
00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.640
And they do bounce off each other quite well.

529
00:31:56.700 --> 00:31:59.400
Apparently they got on very well behind the scenes too.

530
00:31:59.460 --> 00:32:12.660
They both had a very wicked sense of humour, which led to Mary Tam christening Lal Award as Princess Disaster. and Lala Ward returning the favour with Trattoria Romana.

531
00:32:13.019 --> 00:32:15.000
That's brilliant.

532
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:20.400
I like that I can see from your facial expression and the fact that we're talking about episode four.

533
00:32:20.460 --> 00:32:21.839
I know what you're about talk about.

534
00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:25.140
Well, episode five, because I just want to get through episode four.

535
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:27.660
Does Drax turn up at the end of episode four?

536
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.539
I know he's in episode five.

537
00:32:30.599 --> 00:32:31.380
Yeah.

538
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:32.339
Okay.

539
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:34.019
So episode five.

540
00:32:34.079 --> 00:32:38.339
We get another time lord in Drax.

541
00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:40.920
Who is Cockney?

542
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:41.640
No, yeah.

543
00:32:41.700 --> 00:32:42.420
Yeah, Cockney.

544
00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:42.960
Cockney.

545
00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:45.000
And he's wearing what the hell is he wearing?

546
00:32:45.059 --> 00:32:46.380
Space clothes.

547
00:32:46.440 --> 00:32:48.480
Yeah, the space jumpsuit.

548
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:50.039
Space shell suit.

549
00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:52.259
So I thought it was more like if you're on a motorbike or something.

550
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:55.559
Maybe it's TARDIS as disguised as a motorbike.

551
00:32:55.619 --> 00:33:03.660
In the later book, the later choose your own adventure book by Dave Martin, search for the doctor, Drax's TARDIS is in the form of a pink Cadillac.

552
00:33:03.779 --> 00:33:05.819
Oh God, they're horrible.

553
00:33:05.880 --> 00:33:06.599
Thank you so much.

554
00:33:06.660 --> 00:33:08.940
So he calls the Dr. Peter Sigma.

555
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:09.420
Is that right?

556
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:10.980
Beta sigma.

557
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:11.460
Fate.

558
00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:12.720
So what do you think of him?

559
00:33:12.779 --> 00:33:14.220
He's really terrible.

560
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:17.819
See, the actor or the character?

561
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:24.000
The actor can't do natural hand gestures or anything?

562
00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:26.220
or kind of talk normally.

563
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:30.240
So it's like a really bizarrely affected performance.

564
00:33:30.299 --> 00:33:35.579
And it's clearly intended to be funny, but just really isn't.

565
00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:37.980
You know, like I've got no objection to the idea.

566
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:45.720
I'm just watching Brendan's face because at the moment I finish this sentence, he's going to leaf in and say how much he likes, right?

567
00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:47.640
You're right.

568
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:54.359
So do I. See, I really like, I agree with you that the comedy is very laboured.

569
00:33:54.420 --> 00:34:05.279
So I think where the comedy comes from is the interplay with Tom and especially the reactions with Tom, because at this point, of course, Tom Baker and Doctor Who are pretty much one and the same.

570
00:34:05.339 --> 00:34:13.980
So you've got the doctor B looking incredibly uncomfortable that someone is coming in and stealing his show because that is what Drags does.

571
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:25.619
You know, he's, I think he is this likeable, he is a larger than life character, and there is at least an explanation as to why he sounds so ridiculously halfpenny Dick Van Dyke Cockney.

572
00:34:25.739 --> 00:34:26.940
He was in prison?

573
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:28.800
He was in prison in Brixton.

574
00:34:28.860 --> 00:34:32.579
So he had to learn to speak the lingo night. very demotic.

575
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.400
I think it lifts the story.

576
00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:38.699
Yeah, and I like his performance generally.

577
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.340
I think the character does some really stupid things.

578
00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:45.000
He talks about gala free, right?

579
00:34:45.059 --> 00:34:46.679
Everyone's pronouncing it gallery.

580
00:34:46.739 --> 00:34:47.760
They've been doing that for a while.

581
00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:54.539
But, you know, this episode, of course, canine is possessed in this episode, of course, the doctor doctor.

582
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:57.300
Like I mean, it's just so obvious that he's possessed.

583
00:34:57.360 --> 00:34:57.840
Yeah.

584
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:01.139
And notes Draxicillinus.

585
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.460
Your silliness is noted.

586
00:35:02.519 --> 00:35:03.599
How does that go, Brendan?

587
00:35:03.659 --> 00:35:06.300
Your silliness has been noted.

588
00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:07.260
Very good.

589
00:35:07.320 --> 00:35:14.340
I've jumped past, of course, the Cliffhanger episode 45, which is the shadow going, the key to time is mine. mine.

590
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:15.119
Ha, ha, ha.

591
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:16.380
Yeah, that's really cool.

592
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:17.280
Yeah, which is boring.

593
00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:18.780
And is that because he's left the door open?

594
00:35:19.739 --> 00:35:20.639
The key time is it.

595
00:35:20.699 --> 00:35:22.260
Yes, and then he goes to try and get it.

596
00:35:22.260 --> 00:35:27.840
And then we get those 3 flashes of light where he sort of goes flows back and back.

597
00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:28.920
What is that?

598
00:35:28.980 --> 00:35:29.460
What is that?

599
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.119
I don't know.

600
00:35:30.179 --> 00:35:33.659
And then one of his mutes kicks off the carpet on the way into the Tartars.

601
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:39.780
That's a famous blooper that's still being wheeled out by ITV for their TV gone wrong specials.

602
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:45.119
You could just show the Armageddon factor, so I think they've gone on a special thing.

603
00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:50.940
Well, of course, you do get multiple Marys in this episode calling the doctor.

604
00:35:51.000 --> 00:35:51.900
Doctor, doctor.

605
00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:52.800
Doctor.

606
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:55.980
Yeah, very seductive, but only for about 15 seconds.

607
00:35:56.039 --> 00:36:02.340
But that adds. 15 seconds adds up to the 2 episodes that are really good in this story.

608
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:07.800
Yeah, you've got to multiply those 15 seconds by the number of Marys involved in order to.

609
00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:16.440
I love and I love how horrified the doctor is by the by the concept of so many Romaldas telling him he's wrong in piloting the Tartars properly.

610
00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:27.000
She actually asks him in episode one, way back then, whether he didn't they teach him anything at the academy, which I think is really that's terrifically good.

611
00:36:27.059 --> 00:36:31.739
Their relationships developed, you know, such as it is.

612
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:44.099
And of course, it's from episode 4 and 5 where we get those famous some BBC VT clips from the BBC Christmas tapes with lots of bloopers from Tom and Mary, such as how long till detonation canine.

613
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.059
Insufficient data?

614
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.699
Yeah, you never, you know the answer when it's important to you.

615
00:36:47.699 --> 00:36:54.900
And and several bloopers where Tom and Mary flop their dialogue and just look at each other and go in for a kiss.

616
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:56.280
I have seen that.

617
00:36:56.340 --> 00:36:57.659
Is he on the DVD?

618
00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:01.619
Yeah, it's on the DVD. from rehearsal footage because Mary's still got her hair up in rollers.

619
00:37:01.679 --> 00:37:06.900
Is it the one where they, where he asks, what, what do you want for Christmas doctor and he just looks over it?

620
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:08.280
at Mary.

621
00:37:08.340 --> 00:37:09.599
Yeah, that's the one.

622
00:37:09.659 --> 00:37:11.280
That was recorded.

623
00:37:11.340 --> 00:37:13.139
What BBCBT was.

624
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:18.659
It was a yearly tape shown at the BBC Christmas party and it was a collection of bloopers and also skits.

625
00:37:18.780 --> 00:37:35.340
So, for instance, Tom asking, Tom looking at Mary is what he wanted for Christmas, was a respectfully recorded skip, whereas you never know the answer when it's important, was a blooper from the technical rehearsal, where they could afford to have flubs and whatnot.

626
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:50.820
Because, of course, another big problem in this story is with no location filming and almost no model or pre-filming, instead of having to record the equivalent, say, 35 to 40 minutes worth of studio in one studio session.

627
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:53.340
They had to record 50 minutes.

628
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:57.179
Okay, because they're shooting virtually 2 entire episode.

629
00:37:57.300 --> 00:37:58.139
Exactly, yeah.

630
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:03.000
I mean, that's not an excuse, but that's just pointing out why you get moments like kicking up the carpet.

631
00:38:03.059 --> 00:38:09.360
It's also in this episode, I think, Merrick pulls down a whole...

632
00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:15.300
Yeah, very interesting shop with the camera lens and that sort of thing where it's not really a hole when they're looking down.

633
00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:18.300
I never quite understood how that works.

634
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:19.619
Or what's even going on.

635
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:26.159
But as a kid, I always remember, and when I came back to Zoe's remember, oh, he's the wet one that keeps calling out the Astor all the time.

636
00:38:26.219 --> 00:38:28.679
But it's actually quite late in the story that he starts doing that.

637
00:38:28.739 --> 00:38:30.300
But it always sticks in my mind.

638
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:32.940
Like the last episode and a half, that's all he's doing.

639
00:38:33.000 --> 00:38:34.739
Yeah, he's not.

640
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:47.880
I mean, he is a bit wet, as you say, alien, Nathan, but he's not too bad at the beginning and he gets that wonderful moment with Tom and Mary where, you know, he's in the room and Astra's disappeared and he's really, really distraught.

641
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:50.280
And the doctor and Ramana are like, well, why?

642
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:50.820
What's wrong?

643
00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:51.840
What are you doing here?

644
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:52.619
Because I love her.

645
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:56.820
And they both just look incredibly sort of, oh, oh, do that.

646
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:57.900
That's a thing.

647
00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:07.980
So we can see in the episode, the doctor gets shot by Drax because the guard is opened.

648
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.739
The Tana store is open and the guard's going to go in or something like that.

649
00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:11.340
Yeah.

650
00:39:11.340 --> 00:39:11.820
Am I wrong?

651
00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:13.260
Yeah, no, no, the door's open.

652
00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:13.980
The door's open.

653
00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:17.940
And so Jack's running during the guard, shoots the doctor and himself.

654
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:19.679
But the gun shrinks anyway.

655
00:39:19.739 --> 00:39:22.559
Like, surely the gun should not shrink.

656
00:39:22.619 --> 00:39:25.199
Like, this is a country.

657
00:39:25.199 --> 00:39:26.219
Like, I don't understand.

658
00:39:26.340 --> 00:39:26.940
That's brilliant.

659
00:39:27.000 --> 00:39:28.139
That's never occurred to me.

660
00:39:28.199 --> 00:39:29.880
I'm going to say, this is insane.

661
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:36.420
Like, this is one of their ideas, you know, and it's like, well, surely the gun should, the gun should be that same size.

662
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:37.440
You shot that.

663
00:39:37.500 --> 00:39:39.539
So why does why does that happen?

664
00:39:39.539 --> 00:39:44.400
They shoot themselves so that they can do the Trojan horse thing with canine.

665
00:39:44.460 --> 00:39:48.420
Well, they Tom actually, the doctor actually wants him to shoot the gun.

666
00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:51.780
And because he doesn't shoot the guard, they do the Trojan horse thing.

667
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:54.539
Why does it why did Bob and Dave do it?

668
00:39:54.599 --> 00:39:55.320
Do you know what I mean?

669
00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:56.639
Because I've got an episode to go.

670
00:39:56.760 --> 00:40:03.239
Well, they haven't shrunk anyone this episode and they thought, well, shrinking works so well last time we did shrinking.

671
00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:04.980
I think this is where the door is open.

672
00:40:05.820 --> 00:40:07.860
And then this is the light that affects the shadow.

673
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:08.940
Why does the light affect the shadow?

674
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:09.900
Because he's the shadow.

675
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:10.380
Yeah.

676
00:40:10.380 --> 00:40:12.360
Like, he mentions that he's been waiting.

677
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.360
Well, Princess Astra should be born.

678
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:17.699
So does that mean he's been waiting for generations after generations?

679
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:20.699
Thousands of years.

680
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:21.480
It's so boring.

681
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:23.219
But it must be so bored.

682
00:40:23.280 --> 00:40:27.659
He must be like those people on board the one 4 or whatever it is.

683
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:28.260
What's that called?

684
00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:29.820
Uh, one C?

685
00:40:29.880 --> 00:40:30.599
Oh, one C.

686
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:31.500
The Argo.

687
00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:36.119
Look, all I can say is like we get to this point in the story. and like it feels like a 1000 years.

688
00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:37.260
It really does.

689
00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:38.639
And it is boring.

690
00:40:38.760 --> 00:40:40.139
It's like, I just wanted to finish.

691
00:40:40.260 --> 00:40:54.179
The, the one thing I've said that I like the time loop and the, and the key to time thing, the other thing that I do like, I guess, and it doesn't really go anywhere is that Princess Astra is the 6th segment.

692
00:40:54.239 --> 00:41:00.059
And so they're all kind of statues and baubles and things up to this point, aren't they?

693
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:00.719
Really?

694
00:41:00.780 --> 00:41:06.420
So we had Lump of Jethric, Planet Califracs, Pendant.

695
00:41:06.480 --> 00:41:09.179
Then we had a statue head.

696
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:17.519
Yeah, then the symbol of Kroll's power, which we don't know whether it changed shape or not before Kroll ate it or if it was just sitting around as a crystal.

697
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:18.840
I mean it was probably an amulet or something.

698
00:41:18.900 --> 00:41:19.559
Yeah, yeah.

699
00:41:19.619 --> 00:41:21.599
So they're all amulets, but this one's an actual person.

700
00:41:21.659 --> 00:41:27.599
And so there's a sort of moral dilemma here about, you know, like to fulfil their mission.

701
00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:29.880
They have to kind of sacrifice Astra.

702
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.219
And they do have an argument about that.

703
00:41:33.539 --> 00:41:52.739
And it's probably the last bit of character development that Mary Hammers Romana gets because she goes from being very aloof and not really caring about people in the Ribots operation to now saying, you know, now we're murderers and we've killed someone and then the doctor has to point out the bigger picture to her.

704
00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:56.340
So the roles from their 1st meeting are kind of reversed.

705
00:41:56.579 --> 00:41:58.500
I wonder who wrote that.

706
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:05.280
Because like, okay, so Bob Baker and Dave Martin have delivered this script, but whether or not they actually did that dialogue.

707
00:42:05.340 --> 00:42:10.019
I mean, Anthony reads out the door as script editor, he's leading the show.

708
00:42:10.079 --> 00:42:12.300
Adam even does some work on episode six, doesn't he?

709
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.059
Douglas Adams does work at the end to wrap everything up.

710
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:17.639
The last scenes in the TARDIS, I believe, are his.

711
00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:18.420
Yep.

712
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:21.780
And I think that's part of the reason why this story.

713
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:27.599
Maybe, I mean, it was always not going to be great, written by these 2 as far as I'm concerned.

714
00:42:27.659 --> 00:42:35.460
But, you know, when you're leaving a job in the last few weeks of a job, you do what you need to do and you go, well, I'll leave the rest, you know, for who's ever going to come after me.

715
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.000
And so, you know, Anthony reads decided to leave as good editor.

716
00:42:39.059 --> 00:42:43.260
The banker boys have delivered a script that is workable.

717
00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:45.780
How much work is he really going to do on it, you know?

718
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:48.360
Enough to make sure that it's perfunctory up to a point.

719
00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:50.579
And then it's like, well, I'm leaving, you know?

720
00:42:50.639 --> 00:43:01.500
It is, I mean, you know, we all think of the key to time as this big overarching theme and, you know, all the DVDs get released in one big box set and all of that sort of thing.

721
00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:07.199
But I actually find it hard to believe that anyone working on the show thought of it like that at all.

722
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:15.239
Yeah, I mean, Graham Williams had this idea that he wanted to do a season long arc as soon as he came in, but he couldn't get it together for season 15.

723
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:17.940
But it's like he didn't really get it together here either.

724
00:43:18.059 --> 00:43:25.139
You know, he just gives everyone this concept of, you need to have this crystal in your story about the doctor and Romana are hunting for, do whatever else you like.

725
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:32.880
Well, I mean, you know, the advantage of it is it gets the doctor to do something, like he's in every place for a reason.

726
00:43:32.940 --> 00:43:42.480
And, you know, the following year it will be, you know, the randomiser, which just means that he turns up somewhere random, like he did for the 1st few years of the show.

727
00:43:42.539 --> 00:43:52.500
So he's concerned about not having to provide the doctor with a reason for being a new novel reason for being in the story every, you know, like every story.

728
00:43:52.619 --> 00:44:02.820
But, you know, the fact that they hadn't thought about how they were going to wrap it up that Anthony Reid didn't have an idea of what was going to happen.

729
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:05.340
And the end is terrible, isn't it?

730
00:44:05.460 --> 00:44:06.000
Yeah.

731
00:44:06.059 --> 00:44:07.440
Look I agree with you.

732
00:44:07.500 --> 00:44:13.440
It's like, they said, Tony, they said, this is what it's all about, you know, on this mission, blah, blah, blah, blah.

733
00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:16.079
But then the document was never finished to say, well, how are we going to conclude it?

734
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:20.099
They never really thought through that completing thing, which I just think is so important.

735
00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:30.360
I mean, they're going to make the same mistake in several years time with the trial of a time lord where, oh, yes, we'll do this trial and then, well, they haven't really thought about how they're going to wrap it up.

736
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:35.219
It's just, you know, and it's just, it really undermines everything that's been going on.

737
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.679
I mean, it's been an entertaining season.

738
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:39.239
The individual stories have been great.

739
00:44:39.300 --> 00:44:45.179
Even the idea of having them hunting for segments of the key to time, that's quite good in the individual stories.

740
00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:48.900
But when they get the key to time, we just want more.

741
00:44:48.960 --> 00:44:57.480
You get that one's taken to where the doctors, you know, saying, well, the white guardians had enough time now to do whatever he needs to do all the time to reset or whatever it talks about.

742
00:44:57.539 --> 00:45:14.460
And then, you know, he commands the whole thing to stay where it is and then by breaking the trace that the whole thing gets scattered back, you know, to wherever, it seems pointless, I don't know, pointless, but yeah, yeah, it does seem pointless.

743
00:45:14.519 --> 00:45:21.780
The fact that the getting the key to time and having the guardian fix everything is just dealt with in a line of dialogue.

744
00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:23.699
And what's the deal with the Guardians?

745
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:25.380
Like, I mean, they can't touch them.

746
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:31.860
Who said, did they set them up as a little game for themselves to find the jigsaw puzzle thing or is it some higher being above them?

747
00:45:31.920 --> 00:45:33.599
Like, there's questions that are unanswered?

748
00:45:33.659 --> 00:45:35.820
It is described as guardian technology.

749
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:38.460
So the implication is that the Guardians created the key.

750
00:45:38.579 --> 00:45:48.119
Just so they're like playing a game of chess and like, I'm going to win this week. you know, there's a bit more goodness in the universe and next people, I'm in charge, there's a bit more evil happening.

751
00:45:48.179 --> 00:45:51.239
Yeah, I mean, none of that makes any sense at all, does it?

752
00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:52.619
Just no sense.

753
00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:56.460
I have a few answers to some script questions you raised.

754
00:45:56.519 --> 00:46:06.179
Now, 1st of all, a moral dilemma in the final episodes as we discover that Astra is the 6th segment of the Keys time.

755
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:12.659
The original 6th segment in the Bob Baker and Dave Martin scripts was the shadow of the shadow.

756
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.780
So the shadow zone shadow was 6 segment.

757
00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.880
So he'd been waiting around all this time only to discover that the segment was within him all along.

758
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:24.059
Anthony Reed changed that.

759
00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:25.559
Thank you, Anthony.

760
00:46:25.619 --> 00:46:26.460
That was a good move.

761
00:46:26.519 --> 00:46:28.739
Don't thank him too quickly.

762
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.780
Oh, okay, what's happening next?

763
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:36.780
Well, you know how we were talking about, isn't it a shame that there are no zeons on Zeos?

764
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:38.579
He accident, didn't he?

765
00:46:38.639 --> 00:46:39.960
He acts them.

766
00:46:40.019 --> 00:46:43.619
It wasn't in consultation with Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

767
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:46.139
He just cut them out of the script and substituted Mentalus.

768
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:49.440
I was saying, well, Mentalis wasn't even their idea.

769
00:46:49.500 --> 00:46:55.440
No, it just seems like a Bob Baker and Dave Martin idea that it's sort of pointless and over fairly quickly.

770
00:46:55.500 --> 00:46:57.300
So he's done some work on this script.

771
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:04.079
Yeah, so literally the 1st 5.5 episodes are his and the last half of episode 6 is Douglas Adams and Graham Williams.

772
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:12.420
And especially that last scene, because in Anthony Reed slash Bob Baker and Dave Martin's version, it's much the same.

773
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.599
So the doctor disperses the key to time, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

774
00:47:15.659 --> 00:47:17.699
Except the Guardian doesn't even show up.

775
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:25.559
The doctor just has his little bit about, you know, I can do anything because I possess the key to time.

776
00:47:25.619 --> 00:47:30.360
That is terrible. to give him a good slap before.

777
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:31.199
Well, that's all right.

778
00:47:31.260 --> 00:47:32.099
Mary Tam did instead.

779
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:33.239
That's good.

780
00:47:33.300 --> 00:47:34.920
I like when she waxing on the shoulder.

781
00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:38.940
But yeah, they just had the doctor going, oh, you know what?

782
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.039
This is too powerful, snap and all over.

783
00:47:41.099 --> 00:48:12.480
We see, I mean, even that would have been something, you know, like the, the rejection of the, of the arc, the idea that there's someone, like a white guardian who can be given the key to time, whether that's a coherent idea or even a desirable idea, some old white guy, you know, in an unconvincing garden somewhere. you know, that he's the arbiter of what's good and right and he should have ultimate power to, you know, impose his vision of the universe on everyone.

784
00:48:12.539 --> 00:48:15.900
You know, like a proper wholehearted rejection. of that idea.

785
00:48:15.960 --> 00:48:26.519
Instead, you get this sort of muddy thing where maybe Valentine dials, the Black Guardian or the White Guardian or something, and it's all just a huge incoherent mass.

786
00:48:26.519 --> 00:48:28.500
Look, at least he's there.

787
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.340
Like, I think it would have been terrible if there'd been no guardian and it just ended.

788
00:48:32.460 --> 00:48:33.360
Yeah, yeah.

789
00:48:33.420 --> 00:48:33.960
I agree.

790
00:48:34.019 --> 00:48:34.739
You know?

791
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:36.000
And of course, it does end.

792
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:38.460
It ends for this version of Romana.

793
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.079
She does get a nice line at the end.

794
00:48:40.139 --> 00:48:47.039
I think Mary does, like, you know, the doctor talks about, nobody knows where they're going, and she gets to say, not even us.

795
00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:50.880
I just love that delivery and I think it ends on her, actually.

796
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:52.860
Oh, no, doesn't Tom ruin it?

797
00:48:52.920 --> 00:48:53.940
I'm laughing into the camera.

798
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:56.940
Yeah, yeah, as usual, as usual. era.

799
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.099
I'm Perhaps this wish performant.

800
00:48:59.159 --> 00:49:00.719
I wanted it to end on her.

801
00:49:00.780 --> 00:49:03.059
I like how she tells him off.

802
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:03.840
Oh, yeah.

803
00:49:03.900 --> 00:49:04.619
It's wonderful.

804
00:49:04.679 --> 00:49:15.059
Look, this is dull and pedestrian and dire at times many times.

805
00:49:15.179 --> 00:49:19.260
I still prefer to watch this story than Underworld and the Invisible Enemy.

806
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:21.719
That's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

807
00:49:21.780 --> 00:49:27.900
Maybe not, but it's Mary Tam that keeps me going throughout this entire thing.

808
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:28.980
Yeah fair enough.

809
00:49:29.039 --> 00:49:33.659
Well, as we say goodbye to Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

810
00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:39.119
We've had perhaps appropriately into our Jenny Laird awards for most puzzling creative choice.

811
00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:42.539
So, gentlemen, are we going to shoot fish in a barrel or are we going to go for someone else?

812
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:44.579
Who are we shooting?

813
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:46.559
Bob Baker and Dave Martin.

814
00:49:46.619 --> 00:49:48.420
Would be the obvious choice.

815
00:49:49.500 --> 00:49:58.199
I'm going to go out there and actually choose someone who I've spent the last 12 weeks of our podcast vehemently defending for the most part.

816
00:49:58.260 --> 00:50:02.219
I'm going to choose Graham Williams because he had this.

817
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:14.579
He had this vision for Doctor Who, where he wanted the doctor to have responsibility and he wanted the doctor to have a mission and he found it morally abhorrent, but the doctor could just goof off around the universe without having any sort of mission.

818
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:18.900
But he himself doesn't come up with a coherent vision for that.

819
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:23.400
You know, he doesn't come up with a proper story arc.

820
00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:29.340
You know, even if he'd just come up with the setup and come up with the last 2 episodes, as you suggest, Todd.

821
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:32.340
You know, we really should have had 2 episodes to wind this all up.

822
00:50:32.400 --> 00:50:34.559
Two episodes with the Guardians, you know?

823
00:50:34.619 --> 00:50:36.960
In our location work, something.

824
00:50:37.019 --> 00:50:37.739
Yeah, yeah.

825
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:38.099
Yeah.

826
00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:45.179
Put us in a proper garden, give us a sort of half illusory sequence, like the deadly assassin part three.

827
00:50:45.239 --> 00:50:47.159
Give us something, Graham.

828
00:50:47.219 --> 00:50:51.059
I know you were under a lot of pressure, and of course, he's no longer with us.

829
00:50:51.059 --> 00:50:54.179
And I love his work on the series.

830
00:50:54.239 --> 00:51:02.099
I love his individual stories, but I think maybe even he realised that a story arc was a bad idea because of course he doesn't develop one for next year.

831
00:51:02.340 --> 00:51:10.920
So, sadly, as much as I love him, Graham Williams is my choice of my Jenny Laird, the most puzzling creative choice.

832
00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.780
I'm going to give it to Anthony Reed, a script editor who I generally really love.

833
00:51:15.900 --> 00:51:23.940
Um, but the fact that he employed Bob Baker and Dave Martin to write the conclusion of this season.

834
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:24.780
Why?

835
00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:25.500
Just why?

836
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:26.639
Couldn't you've got somebody else?

837
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:28.199
I mean, really, honestly, why?

838
00:51:28.260 --> 00:51:32.099
Nathan, of course, is gonna come up with something far more interesting and witty, aren't you?

839
00:51:32.159 --> 00:51:33.480
I wouldn't count on it.

840
00:51:33.539 --> 00:51:37.260
It's either that, or I have to give it to the Tarim would beast.

841
00:51:37.320 --> 00:51:40.619
I did consider that.

842
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:45.420
But at least with the Torren Woodbeast, you know, they minimised its exposure as much as possible.

843
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:53.579
Or I might give it to the sunset behind Tom and Mary in the stones of blood when they're on the top of the cliff.

844
00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:54.539
That's pretty incredible.

845
00:51:54.599 --> 00:51:55.739
The constantly moving sunset.

846
00:51:56.940 --> 00:51:59.699
It's too much methane in the atmosphere.

847
00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:03.239
Yes, I'm giving mine to Richard McMahon Smith.

848
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:05.699
He is the...

849
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:09.780
He is the designer on the Armageddon factor.

850
00:52:10.019 --> 00:52:11.940
The set designer.

851
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:16.019
Yeah, we're just the designer, you know, not makeup or anything like that.

852
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:25.019
But season 15 really showed its budgetary limitations at times with things like the invisible enemy and obviously underworld.

853
00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:35.699
But season 16 hasn't really suffered from that until maybe Power of Kroll, although that has, you know, like lavish location work.

854
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:41.639
Here we're stuck in a series of, as Todd pointed out, really very boring corridors.

855
00:52:41.699 --> 00:52:47.400
And there's really nothing sort of remarkable or memorable about the production, really, to speak of at all.

856
00:52:47.460 --> 00:52:55.920
I think it's a really drab way to end what has visually been a really fun and, you know, generally successful season.

857
00:52:55.980 --> 00:53:00.420
There's a great moment on the commentary of the Armageddon factor.

858
00:53:00.539 --> 00:53:03.719
This isn't my recommendation, but do listen to it if you can.

859
00:53:03.780 --> 00:53:07.920
The Mary Tam, John Woodvine and Michael Hayes commentary.

860
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:11.280
I think at the end of episode 6.

861
00:53:11.340 --> 00:53:16.320
Mary Turn says, well, that was almost as knackering as making the Armageddon.

862
00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:18.960
Oh God, I love her.

863
00:53:19.019 --> 00:53:22.800
I think she's on a 2nd commentary on it with Tom as well.

864
00:53:22.860 --> 00:53:24.420
Because that was one of the ones.

865
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:26.940
That's one of the ones on the UK edition, which has 2 commentaries.

866
00:53:27.000 --> 00:53:30.300
Okay, my pick for this season.

867
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:34.139
I was tempted to go with Big Finisher's key to time trilogy.

868
00:53:34.199 --> 00:53:35.519
That's the number two, right?

869
00:53:35.579 --> 00:53:36.480
That's the number two.

870
00:53:36.539 --> 00:53:37.860
Please don't, because it's awful.

871
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:38.760
Oh sorry.

872
00:53:38.820 --> 00:53:40.440
I quite enjoy it.

873
00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:41.519
I understand why people don't.

874
00:53:41.579 --> 00:53:42.659
It's very frivolous.

875
00:53:42.719 --> 00:53:46.619
It's like shoving Peter Davidson into a bunch of season 17 stories.

876
00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:48.179
So it doesn't...

877
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:48.719
What is it?

878
00:53:48.780 --> 00:53:49.320
the premise?

879
00:53:49.380 --> 00:53:52.380
The premise is that...

880
00:53:52.380 --> 00:53:53.400
The time is back.

881
00:53:53.460 --> 00:53:56.039
Yeah, when the doctor broke up the key to time.

882
00:53:56.159 --> 00:53:58.199
Its work had not been done.

883
00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:02.039
So he needs to go out and find it again, but instead of having...

884
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:10.500
Pete needs to go out and find it again and he's paired with a new companion who is a human tracer called Amy and she's also got a sister, Zara.

885
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:11.940
So we've got the A to Zed thing again.

886
00:54:12.539 --> 00:54:14.579
It's all coming back to me.

887
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:16.619
It was a horrible nightmare listening to it.

888
00:54:16.739 --> 00:54:20.639
Oh, they ended up going onto their own series called Graceless, which one several awards.

889
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:22.679
What, from Big Finish themselves?

890
00:54:22.739 --> 00:54:23.880
Yeah, from Big Finish.

891
00:54:23.940 --> 00:54:25.260
Won their own awards.

892
00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:25.739
Yes.

893
00:54:25.800 --> 00:54:27.900
No, no, not from...

894
00:54:27.960 --> 00:54:29.039
Sorry, I set that up.

895
00:54:29.099 --> 00:54:33.780
Simon Garrier, if you're listening, I think you're lovely and a very talented writer.

896
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:40.860
Yes, also, and also Lala Ward comes back in that. as the lord president.

897
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:44.400
So, um, They are good.

898
00:54:44.460 --> 00:54:55.139
But what I'm going to recommend over that is the last Doctor Who work that Mary Tam undertook before she passed away.

899
00:54:55.199 --> 00:55:01.019
She did a series of 72 parters with Tom and John Leeson.

900
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:06.300
I'm going to recommend one in particular, and that's the first one called the Auntie Matter.

901
00:55:07.019 --> 00:55:21.840
And it's a pum, and it's the doctor in Romana, but particularly Romana, thrust into a PG Woodhouse, Jeeves and Worcester style 1920s comedy.

902
00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:22.679
Wow.

903
00:55:22.739 --> 00:55:25.380
Also featuring Julia McKenzie.

904
00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:26.460
Oh really?

905
00:55:26.519 --> 00:55:27.420
Really?

906
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:28.679
The Auntie Matter.

907
00:55:28.739 --> 00:55:29.699
The Auntie Matter.

908
00:55:29.820 --> 00:55:31.500
It's the only one I haven't listened to of that range.

909
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.400
Oh, for some reason.

910
00:55:32.460 --> 00:55:33.239
I don't have it.

911
00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:33.599
Yeah.

912
00:55:33.659 --> 00:55:34.199
Do listen to it.

913
00:55:34.260 --> 00:55:35.639
It's the 1st in...

914
00:55:35.699 --> 00:55:51.059
I mean, they're all great because it's all Mary and it, the whole series really seeks to redress what Mary thought was a weakness in her character in that they didn't explore the fact that she was alien and she was psychic and she was incredibly clever and all the stories do that.

915
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:53.940
There's a story that pairs her up with Henry Gordon, Jago.

916
00:55:54.059 --> 00:55:55.199
Of course.

917
00:55:55.800 --> 00:56:00.780
And it also addresses the fact that, you know, she's a beautiful woman probably.

918
00:56:00.840 --> 00:56:07.800
So there are several men over the course of the series who are interested and she just shuts them down brilliantly in each case.

919
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:12.719
So any of those are good, but the Auntie Matter is my pick from that range.

920
00:56:13.440 --> 00:56:20.219
Well, look, I recommend Mary Tam in the Steelers from Safe from the companion chronicles from Big Finish.

921
00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:21.539
She also does another one as well.

922
00:56:21.599 --> 00:56:26.099
You know, it's just to hear more of her as Romana, just brilliant.

923
00:56:26.159 --> 00:56:30.780
And both those audios are available for download from the big finish website.

924
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.659
The downloads are very affordable.

925
00:56:33.719 --> 00:56:49.619
So, for instance, the antimatter, which is a full cast, one hour play, is $9 to download, Australian, and the Steelers from Safe, which is Mary Tam giving a tour divorce playing about 10 different people, is only $8 Australian to download.

926
00:56:49.619 --> 00:56:52.019
I'm going to pick something a bit different.

927
00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:57.539
One of my favourite websites is avclub.com, the Onion AV club.

928
00:56:57.599 --> 00:57:03.179
So you know the onion, which is a sort of satirical newspaper, uh, that's published in America.

929
00:57:03.239 --> 00:57:05.340
It's sort of terribly funny.

930
00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:08.940
They have some companion insights and one of them is the AV club.

931
00:57:09.000 --> 00:57:19.559
And I think the AV club is really some of the cleverest writing about, you know, TV and movies and things like that on the internet.

932
00:57:19.619 --> 00:57:23.159
And so it's a place I go fairly frequently for news and things.

933
00:57:23.219 --> 00:57:28.800
And they have for a while had someone reviewing classic Doctor Who.

934
00:57:28.800 --> 00:57:31.500
And he stopped recently recently.

935
00:57:31.559 --> 00:57:32.880
I'm not quite sure why.

936
00:57:33.000 --> 00:57:52.320
And he was just going from story to story, you know, more or less at random, but having like an American website where a fairly insightful reviewer, and I can't remember his name, but I will put it in the show notes, you know, writes intelligent commentary on Doctor Who from a position of knowledge.

937
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:54.420
You know, that's that's pretty rare.

938
00:57:54.539 --> 00:58:01.019
And one of the great things about the AV club is that the commenters are really funny and really clever.

939
00:58:01.139 --> 00:58:08.039
So it's not one of those, it's not like a YouTube comment thread where you want to, you know, go and purge after reading it.

940
00:58:08.099 --> 00:58:15.300
It's full of just really witty, clever people commenting on Doctor Who and so it's really fun.

941
00:58:15.420 --> 00:58:17.340
They continue to review the new series.

942
00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:20.159
I've just recently read a couple of those.

943
00:58:20.219 --> 00:58:23.340
A friend of mine sent a link to me and I thought they were very good.

944
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:24.360
So, yeah.

945
00:58:24.420 --> 00:58:31.679
But it's a good website generally, you know, not just for Doctor Who, but for just following any sort of pop culture, both English and American, so I can really recommend it.

946
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:53.159
Thankfully, dear listener, that's all the time we have for the Armageddon factor before we get locked in a time loop.

947
00:58:53.219 --> 00:58:58.500
Thankfully, dearness, no, that's all the time we have for the Armageddon factor before we get locked in a time loop.

948
00:58:58.559 --> 00:59:04.380
We will be back next week to discuss Destiny of the Daleks.

949
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:10.440
Todd, you will, of course, rejoin us 6 weeks later to discuss the leisure hive, which you look very happy about.

950
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:13.139
In the 1980s.

951
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:14.219
Yay!

952
00:59:14.219 --> 00:59:17.219
Well, you are from 1980.

953
00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:22.920
So Richard will be rejoining us for possibly the campus season of Doctor Who ever.

954
00:59:22.980 --> 00:59:26.219
That's also taking into account later appearances by John Simm.

955
00:59:26.400 --> 00:59:36.480
Until then, please check us out online at flight through entirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

956
00:59:36.539 --> 00:59:38.519
And don't forget, over on Bond Finger.

957
00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:45.179
We now have commentaries for Dr. No from Russia with Love, Goldfinger Thunderball, and you only live twice.

958
00:59:45.239 --> 00:59:49.019
Until then, may none of your girads be 8 foot tall.

959
00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:50.820
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

960
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:51.420
Good night.

961
00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:52.139
See you soon.

962
00:59:55.260 --> 00:59:56.880
That was flat through entirety.

963
00:59:56.940 --> 00:59:59.519
Todd BLD, Nathan Buckman, Brendan Jones.

964
00:59:59.639 --> 01:00:04.260
This episode, Holden Astra, was recorded on the 7th of November 2015.

965
01:00:04.500 --> 01:00:07.380
The next episode will be released on January 17th.

966
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:14.340
We respectfully dedicate this episode to the memory of Mary 10 and her husband, Marcus Ringrose, who both passed away in 2012.

967
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:22.139
And that's including appearances by John Sim.

968
01:00:23.760 --> 01:00:29.099
That's including any later appearance, that's, that's...