WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:07:08

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast with 3 hearts, one for casual, one for

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best, and one for Saturday night.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm a family-sized tub of Spack off for this episode.

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We're heading into our sand pit, possibly in Dorset then at this

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point.

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Who the hell cares?

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It's destiny of the Daleks.

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Hey.

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Right, so, Terry Nation's back.

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Is he?

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Do you have a checklist, Brandon?

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Well, I was going I was going to leave that over to you because

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this is the last time.

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We can do a terry nation checklist.

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So let's count them off. there's radiation Yes.

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It is the same radiation planet that he's used, you know, a couple

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of times before.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, I think this is the only time that Terry's been back to

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Scaro, aside from Genesis of the Dialects, which arguably was

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written by Robert Holmes anyway.

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And Terry's only written the 1st episode of this anyway.

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Yeah, Ken Greaves says that he got a completed script for episode

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one, a draft script for episode 2, an outline for episode 3 and 4

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and that he, Graham Williams, an incoming script editor, Douglas

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Adams.

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Hooray, we've got Douglas came up with the ending.

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So...

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That ending again.

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And Terry wasn't allowed to write the introduction scene with

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Lala.

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This is the one where it starts as every Terry Nations episode

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starts, the story starts.

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And I think it does this one really well.

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It works.

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It doesn't matter that it's 20 years old.

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Well, it's not quite, is it?

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But, you know, wandering around on a planet with an apparently

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hostile intruder and just getting our bearings.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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And hats off to Kangreve for going with steady cam for

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dislocation.

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How a beautiful time, isn't it?

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It's the 1st time in Doctor Who.

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And it was very new for drama at that point.

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It was actually the 1st time for drama.

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These things cost a fortune and the BBC was allowed to have it and

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they were allowed to have it for Doctor Who.

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So we have the most interesting things we look at.

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Uh, the comment chasing down the corridor scenes because they're

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dumbest dedicate.

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We have the very 1st time that the doctor's on his back staring at

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the ceiling and happy about it.

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We have ceilings.

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Yes, that's true.

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Yeah, the sound zone's wonderful.

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Yeah, when was Khaled dome-based lime green?

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Yeah, it's weird because the sets have the sets that are meant to

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be the same sets as from Genesis of Daleks.

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They have pretty much the same construction, but completely

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different colours.

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It's like they didn't have any reference photos to work from.

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They were just going from the blueprints.

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Actually, I think that obviously Terry didn't write very much of

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it.

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But you remember that Davros is actually in the bunker, of

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course.

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And I got the impression that the bunker was some distance from

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the Khaled dough.

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But here it's several levels below the car led city.

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See, I always thought it was below the Carled City because when

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the Carled City is bombed in Genesis, they survive, but they feel

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it.

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I seem to recall.

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But I could be wrong.

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I just want to say a few words about SteadyCam because some of the

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shows I work on.

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We still use a steady cam rig.

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And it really hasn't changed that much since the 70s.

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So for listeners who don't realise, the steady game is sort of a

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body armour slash harness that goes over the camera operator with

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an arm.

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So imagine sort of an Allen key, if you like, that you get an IKEA

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furniture.

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So that sticks in the back of the harness, goes over the camera

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operator's head and has pretty much a strong rope hanging down to

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the camera.

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So the camop holds the camera, but what is keeping it steady is

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this harness on their back.

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And that's why if you ever meet a cameraman, they are almost

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always quite tall, quite fit, quite muscular, because the job just

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does that to you.

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You can hear a window into Brendan's life here, aren't we?

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It's a bit exciting.

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So they don't just get an iPhone and like balance it on the back

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of their hand sort of thing and walk along.

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Don't talk to me about iPhone footage and television. 30 frames a

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second, Apple with no way to adjust it.

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Actually, no, sorry. 27 frames a 2nd on some occasions, but we're

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digressing massively.

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So, Terry Nathan checklist, we have radiation, we have almost only

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the regulars in the 1st episode with one person wandering around

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after them.

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We have anti-radiation, drugs, gloves.

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Gloves.

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Oh, and everyone says this, why does the doctor give Lala the

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bleeper but doesn't give her the drugs?

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Well, he's expecting her not to wander off.

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Oh, okay, because he's never been in a terry nation story before.

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So there's humanoids mining.

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Yes, there's mining servants of the Daleks and drilling.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Fundamental concepts of daleks being misunderstood.

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Yeah, he thinks they're robot. being misunderstood by the author.

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Exactly.

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There are some show notes wandering about might have been written

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after the fact that the Daleks were being taken to a new point.

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Terry assumed that everybody else would be keeping up with him and

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that they're now this completely logical post.

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You must have seen Star Wars, that, you know, the battle computers

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are running the Dalek story.

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And you see, in the next Dialect story, trying to...

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They're trying to recon that and it doesn't really work either

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does it?

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More fun within the future for that one.

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Yeah, I mean, it's strange, it is a very strange thing.

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So you've got 2 robot races.

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Yes, we haven't mentioned the Mavellans yet.

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We'll get to them.

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Do you know where this was coming from, this story?

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This was a Terry's last ditch attempt to boot a Dalek spinoff

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series.

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Ah, Daleks V move Allens.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You know what?

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I think I would have, I think I would have watched that.

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But you would have had to have the Mavellans a bit more like a bit

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more human. movie version with Bo Derek.

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Does anyone under 30 even know who I'm talking about?

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Probably not.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I know, I know.

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I know of Bo Derek, yeah.

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The hair.

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Well, I did I did have to wonder if this is Terry Nation sort of

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trying to do computers because the Daleks came from post-war

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Britain and sort of generational memory of the Nazis, end of

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communism, as we discussed all those, all those months ago.

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Whereas now, as we discover later in the year with Tom and Lala

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advertising the terribly interactive prime computers.

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I'm computers.

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Oh, that was very exciting.

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They were shown in the cinema in the cinemas here in 1990.

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It was shown before the Muppet movie and infinitely better.

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They didn't have it in England, I don't think.

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Prime computers.

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No, they're an Australian company on computers, yeah.

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Yeah, it was while they were out here, and I believe it was the

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last time Tom came out here.

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He was allowed to do the keep Australia beautiful stuff, but he

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apparently paid for some of the trip himself, so I don't know what

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was going on there.

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I believe he's got family in New Zealand.

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Oh, okay.

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So it wouldn't surprise me.

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But he was being played to do the keep Australia beautiful stuff.

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He did some paid work for the ABC for promos and then he also did

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It was a WHL in those days, the target books.

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He did signings as Nathan and I remember.

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It's a very moving time for us.

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And this is the outfit that he wore.

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Like this seems to be like the canonical form of the doctors, the

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4th doctor's outfit with that fabulous jacket.

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But, you know, at the time, sort of the home computer market was

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burgeoning.

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And so Terry Nation seemed to be someone who would look at ideas

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that were happening now, well, I say now is in the time he was

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writing the script.

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So, you know, Planet of the Daleks, we have a battle in a jungle

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at the same time the Vietnam War was going on.

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And here we have terrination sort of going, computers.

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What if someone computerised their weapon systems?

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What if the computers couldn't find a way around each other?

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And yeah, it's a...

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We were getting films, sorry, we were getting films from 78 about

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this very concept.

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When's war games?

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That's a good point. 79, isn't it?

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I thought it was 84, but I could be wrong.

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Could be.

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Isn't Quill Wheaton in that?

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No, it's Matthew Broderick, isn't it?

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Oh, yeah, that's right.

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Matthew Waterhouse.

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Yeah, yeah.

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A young Matthew Waterhouse.

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Will Wheaton is apparently interviewing Peter Capaldi and Jenna

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Coleman for the series 9 box set.

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I'm excited by that Yeah, he's pretty good.

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As we record this, dear listener.

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Hellbent has gone out but we haven't seen it yet.

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We really care about new podcast listeners, which is why we're not

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currently sitting on the couch watching Hell Band.

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That's right.

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Well, plus, Rod would kill me if I watched it without it.

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Yeah, fair enough.

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But back to Destin.

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Is it rather telling that we're talking about anything else, rub

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and destiny of the Daleks?

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I want to talk about why this is such a great show and why you

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just said it.

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It was new.

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It hadn't been seen before.

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A nation does, even though we go for tropisms, is that the term, I

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believe, we've used before?

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Possibly.

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Yeah, terry tropes.

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It is fresh and new.

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It looked startlingly, beautifully new.

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And once you get the aggressors, the Dalek aggressors in there.

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Once you get the Mavellans.

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We had seen these sorts of sets before in Space 1979, but we had

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never seen it in Doctor Who.

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It was bright and beautiful.

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The ship design is gorgeous and fresh.

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Lala, should we start with Lala?

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Yeah, why haven't we spoken about last?

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Gorgeous and fresh.

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We haven't spoken about that scene, but we haven't spoken about

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her.

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And, you know, like I was a big proponent of the theory that Mary

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Tam takes a brief sabbatical from acting during her year on Doctor

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Who.

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I don't really have an argument.

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But that actually kind of works because, you know, she takes a

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tone of ironic detachment.

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Lala, I think is very, very different from Mary.

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Yeah, engaged.

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It's much clearer, I think, in Creature from the Pit, which is her

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first story.

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First story recorder.

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This is actually the 3rd story she recorded because they went into

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City of Death after that.

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So funny story later on.

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So she's quite confident and I think, you know, she's established

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the character.

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And the thing that she differs from Mary in is that she does

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actually feel human emotions about things.

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Do you know what I mean?

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She's often really happy.

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Like she likes being with the doctor.

257
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She's smart, you know, the 2 of them are just terribly good

258
00:10:39.179 --> 00:10:39.659
together.

259
00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:40.860
That won't last.

260
00:10:40.919 --> 00:10:42.299
No, no, yeah.

261
00:10:42.360 --> 00:10:44.220
They bounce off one another.

262
00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:49.200
You know, she reacts with smiles to funny things that he says, you

263
00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:53.039
know, there's a real, there's a real enthusiasm in Lala's

264
00:10:53.039 --> 00:10:53.340
performance.

265
00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:56.159
Well, you know, Tom wanted to leave at the end of the previous

266
00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:56.879
season.

267
00:10:56.940 --> 00:10:59.820
There are stories that, yeah, that Williams, part of the thing was

268
00:10:59.820 --> 00:11:04.500
Lala on board, and Douglas kept Tom on.

269
00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:08.399
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. because Tom and Lala really hit it off on

270
00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:09.960
the set of Armageddon factor, obviously.

271
00:11:10.019 --> 00:11:16.139
And also Tom and Douglas were of a very similar sense of humour.

272
00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:21.000
And Lala and Douglas were great friends as well. sort of Tom was

273
00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:25.559
enchanted by Lala and I don't know if Lala suggested Douglas Adams

274
00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:28.139
and Anthony Reed doesn't know who suggested Douglas Adams, but he

275
00:11:28.139 --> 00:11:29.100
approved of the idea.

276
00:11:29.159 --> 00:11:32.940
No, sadly, he passed away just...

277
00:11:33.059 --> 00:11:34.799
After the riding horns of 91, career wise.

278
00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:41.340
But yeah, so we have sort of a powerful triumvirate from the

279
00:11:41.340 --> 00:11:41.580
beginning.

280
00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:44.460
I have one problem with Lull Award's performance in this story.

281
00:11:44.519 --> 00:11:45.059
Yeah.

282
00:11:45.059 --> 00:11:48.720
Just one and that is her interrogation by the Daleks.

283
00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:52.440
She just goes to pieces far too quickly.

284
00:11:52.500 --> 00:11:58.440
It could have been mitigated if then later on, she said, you know

285
00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:00.299
you just have to, you just have to act like you're perfectly

286
00:12:00.299 --> 00:12:02.220
terrified, and the Daleks expect that.

287
00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.820
But it is actually a nice change to get her reacting to peril

288
00:12:05.820 --> 00:12:09.120
because Mary barely ever bothers to do that.

289
00:12:09.179 --> 00:12:12.600
She goes, you know, oh, no, don't push me over that cliff doctor

290
00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:13.620
but, you know, she does.

291
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:15.419
It looked more convincing.

292
00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:15.960
Yeah, yeah.

293
00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:17.759
She's really not that into it.

294
00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:18.840
Whereas...

295
00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:20.279
Yes, this from mine is engaged.

296
00:12:20.340 --> 00:12:21.419
I fully with that.

297
00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:26.639
This is a new person in a new body and there's the Katie factor

298
00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:28.379
the Katie Manning factor we haven't mentioned.

299
00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.460
Lala constantly in interviews back then, and now when she graces

300
00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:35.879
us, you know, rarely with a few words, was playing it for the

301
00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:37.139
teeny tots.

302
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:37.919
Yes, yeah.

303
00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:39.179
Not for the teenagers.

304
00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:42.779
And this is why she did things with the costume, or later on when

305
00:12:42.779 --> 00:12:44.879
she starts to have more control over that sort of thing.

306
00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:46.259
She wanted to play it for the small children.

307
00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:49.200
So you're going to be getting some Katie memes.

308
00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:52.080
We can say meme because her husband coined the word.

309
00:12:52.320 --> 00:12:56.340
Well, that's definitely supported by the fact that Lola is still

310
00:12:56.340 --> 00:12:59.279
writing literature for children, writing and illustrating and

311
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.100
painting beautiful stuff for children.

312
00:13:02.159 --> 00:13:06.779
And I think that's possibly in part because...

313
00:13:06.779 --> 00:13:08.039
She was at the time as well, you know.

314
00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:09.120
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

315
00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:12.480
She did an astrology book for cats as a colouring in thing.

316
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:13.679
Yeah, she really did.

317
00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:20.399
And of course, she didn't have a great time at school herself.

318
00:13:20.460 --> 00:13:26.100
So I think that's possibly why she's so keen on children's

319
00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:27.779
intelligence and children's learning.

320
00:13:27.840 --> 00:13:31.200
And there's a wonderful sort of moral there that she tells the

321
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.899
story and Richard Dawkins tells the story about questioning

322
00:13:33.899 --> 00:13:34.379
things.

323
00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:39.539
And I think it was, she's in her late teens or early 20s and told

324
00:13:39.539 --> 00:13:41.519
her parents, no, I hated school.

325
00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:44.639
And you know, I know you were paying for a lot of money for me to

326
00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:45.779
go there, but I hated it.

327
00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:47.399
And I said, darling, why didn't you say anything?

328
00:13:47.460 --> 00:13:49.500
And she said, I didn't know I could.

329
00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:49.860
Yeah.

330
00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:54.299
And I think that's that's a big part of her performance as it goes

331
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:57.299
on as well because she's suddenly a character who can do

332
00:13:57.299 --> 00:13:57.600
anything.

333
00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.860
But at the same time, she's a character who, unlike the doctor

334
00:14:01.860 --> 00:14:05.580
understands the responsibility of I can do anything.

335
00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.139
And I'm going to go out there and say, you know, this is the year

336
00:14:10.139 --> 00:14:13.379
that everyone says that Tom starts doing silly walks and not

337
00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:15.179
taking it seriously and da da da da.

338
00:14:15.419 --> 00:14:22.259
I think in every story this season, we have great examples of yet

339
00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:26.399
Tom is larking about and having the jokes, but each story has a

340
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:30.000
great scene where the doctor is just cold and steel again.

341
00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.159
It never goes away.

342
00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:32.940
I think people forget that.

343
00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.019
Yeah, and it's exactly. to have one thing overshadowed by another

344
00:14:37.019 --> 00:14:40.080
but it's just that this is the 1st time he's had the opportunity

345
00:14:40.080 --> 00:14:43.980
like a puppy left at home by itself, to play and be playful

346
00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:47.220
because there's someone of equal measure in charge.

347
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:53.039
Moffatt talks about the co-leads of Doctor Who, you know, that

348
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:57.000
Jenna has been, you know, a co-lead, and, you know, she's even

349
00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:58.799
been in the opening credits and things.

350
00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:03.539
Here, Romana is the doctor's equal. in a way that she wasn't

351
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:06.480
really in Rebos operation, 'cause she didn't have the experience.

352
00:15:06.539 --> 00:15:10.740
Now she's been travelling with the doctor, the 2 of them just get

353
00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:11.399
on terribly well.

354
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:15.240
And so you can just give the doctor's bits to Lala to do.

355
00:15:15.299 --> 00:15:19.679
And, you know, she's wearing a pink facsimile of the doctor's

356
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:20.159
outfit.

357
00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.379
As you are today, Richard.

358
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:23.039
I am.

359
00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:23.940
I'm looking good.

360
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:25.679
The scarf is delighted.

361
00:15:25.740 --> 00:15:30.000
And right from the word go, even though it's a bit warm in here.

362
00:15:30.059 --> 00:15:34.740
June Hudson and Lala. a great deal of control over together over

363
00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:37.559
how the character would develop through the costume and Lana

364
00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.879
definitely saw characters development through her costumes.

365
00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.379
She gets great costumes this year too, with one notable

366
00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:46.919
exception.

367
00:15:46.980 --> 00:15:49.139
Indeed, which will come to later.

368
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.360
So can we talk about why she's here?

369
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:56.399
Because this is one of the things that really irritated me when I

370
00:15:56.399 --> 00:16:00.779
1st watched this as a child was the carelessness on the part of

371
00:16:00.779 --> 00:16:07.799
whoever was running the show of actually not making sure that 2

372
00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:10.679
out of your 3 leads were coming back next year.

373
00:16:10.740 --> 00:16:15.539
And so suddenly, you know, we have to scramble to replace Mary

374
00:16:15.539 --> 00:16:17.759
because we didn't get her back.

375
00:16:17.820 --> 00:16:23.639
We have this story, canine has laryngitis, which is preparing him

376
00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.000
for the big change in his voice that will come, you know, in 2

377
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:27.600
months time.

378
00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:30.899
And he did the same thing at the end of last year.

379
00:16:30.960 --> 00:16:35.700
You know, like suddenly Leela goes and he's got no sort of

380
00:16:35.700 --> 00:16:39.000
particular plan to replace her and has to have, you know, the

381
00:16:39.000 --> 00:16:43.620
Romana has to be magically materialised inside the TARDIS, you

382
00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:47.399
know, with no sort of pre-existing life or anything like that

383
00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:52.139
because we need a girl, you know, in the in the regular cast.

384
00:16:52.379 --> 00:16:55.620
You know, he doesn't care about...

385
00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:57.000
You got a hole in the console for them.

386
00:16:57.059 --> 00:17:01.259
You know, Graham Williams wanted to be very strong on story and he

387
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:02.759
wanted to have interesting story hooks.

388
00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:06.299
But he cared less about character.

389
00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.839
It's like he kind of thought the characters were there to serve

390
00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:10.140
the story.

391
00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:16.380
Which, to an extent, is very true of Doctor Who, just last night I

392
00:17:16.380 --> 00:17:19.380
watched a great documentary called Chaos on the Bridge, which is

393
00:17:19.380 --> 00:17:22.920
all about Gene Roddenbury's involvement in Star Trek, the Next

394
00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:26.400
Generation, and how it almost all fell apart until other people

395
00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:27.299
took over from him.

396
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.059
We'll be getting to that with creature from the pit, aren't we?

397
00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:33.420
It's produced by it's produced by William Shatner.

398
00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.799
But one of the comments in it comes from Ronald D. Moore, who was

399
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:42.359
a writer for Star Trek, came up with a new Battlestar Galactica.

400
00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:44.640
So, you know, lots of stuff, and he said the problem with Gene

401
00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:47.940
Star Trek is it was plot driven rather than character driven.

402
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:48.779
Yeah.

403
00:17:48.779 --> 00:17:51.059
And the thing is, that works for something like Doctor Who.

404
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.559
The classic Doctor Who.

405
00:17:52.619 --> 00:17:53.700
But now new Doctor Who.

406
00:17:54.299 --> 00:17:56.099
Is character driven rather than plot driven.

407
00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:57.480
So it's an interesting observation.

408
00:17:57.539 --> 00:18:01.559
I think Graham Williams, more than any other Doctor Who producer

409
00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.220
was a plot driven producer for better or for worse, rather than a

410
00:18:05.220 --> 00:18:05.940
character driven one.

411
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:10.019
Yeah, the actors were notable enough to be able to play around and

412
00:18:10.019 --> 00:18:13.019
develop their own little moments and lives.

413
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:14.460
I think that that's okay.

414
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:15.299
Do you know what I mean?

415
00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:18.839
And like, I'm not demanding that, you know, Romana has to sort of

416
00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.200
cry or reminisce about her father or, you know, like anything like

417
00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:22.440
that.

418
00:18:22.500 --> 00:18:27.240
Um, you know, we're used to classic Doctor Who being plot driven.

419
00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:31.619
But there's just a kind of carelessness and like a lack of

420
00:18:31.619 --> 00:18:34.019
interest in making convincing people.

421
00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:37.920
You know, like, Barbara and Ian didn't have, you know

422
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:40.440
sophisticated interiority or anything like that.

423
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:43.140
You know, they didn't spend a lot of time talking about their

424
00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:43.619
feelings.

425
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:45.660
But at least... came out both, yeah.

426
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:49.680
And they were kind of identifiable as people and it mattered when

427
00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.160
they left and it mattered what happened to them, you know, I'm

428
00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:54.779
still really upset about that actually.

429
00:18:54.779 --> 00:18:58.500
I'm just giggling because anytime you talk about sort of Ian's

430
00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:01.079
performance, I always think of that moment in the keys of marinace

431
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:03.240
where he's marvelling at the pyramid saying, it must have been

432
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:05.039
built with tremendous accuracy.

433
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.819
Yeah, it wasn't exactly right.

434
00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:12.779
But it's also that we had the time and the time was put into not

435
00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:15.900
only longer seasons, but the time to develop between characters

436
00:19:15.900 --> 00:19:17.220
and characters themselves.

437
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.740
Whereas in this one, yes, and they have a great introduction.

438
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:21.480
I don't mind Lala being thrown into it.

439
00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:25.920
She takes control very quickly and very easily.

440
00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.440
And there's a sort of fun of the party's already started.

441
00:19:28.500 --> 00:19:32.160
There's nothing more fun than turning up at a party an hour after

442
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:35.759
it started when everybody's there and the energies in full swing.

443
00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:36.900
You don't want to be the 1st guest.

444
00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:37.799
No.

445
00:19:37.859 --> 00:19:39.660
And look, I mean, she works.

446
00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:40.799
I have no objection.

447
00:19:40.859 --> 00:19:44.940
And, you know, like, I think Todd Todd took a little while to get

448
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:49.140
used to Lala and was texting us about it for a bit, but I actually

449
00:19:49.140 --> 00:19:54.299
think Lala is superior to Mary.

450
00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:59.220
She's not as, she's not as glamorous and not quite as ironic.

451
00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:00.539
She's more engaged.

452
00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:04.079
She loves it and her and Tom just hit it off and they're saying

453
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:05.940
Douglas Adams things.

454
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.240
And so they're suddenly funny and the smartest people in the room

455
00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:12.240
and, you know, each as smart as each other.

456
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:15.059
And, you know, I think that there's a reason, for instance, that

457
00:20:15.059 --> 00:20:17.519
Gareth Roberts loves this season.

458
00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:22.559
You know, it's just, it's smart, fun, funny people having fun, and

459
00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:23.460
that's the other thing, too.

460
00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:24.599
It's the F word.

461
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:26.220
Yeah, it is the F word.

462
00:20:26.279 --> 00:20:27.599
The doctor's not on an emission.

463
00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:29.819
His trips are completely random.

464
00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:32.039
When does he actually say, I don't know.

465
00:20:32.099 --> 00:20:32.940
I'm just having fun.

466
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:35.880
I mean, there is, he even just, he even gets to say that.

467
00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:36.779
There is...

468
00:20:36.779 --> 00:20:38.400
It's in the nightmare of Eden.

469
00:20:38.460 --> 00:20:39.299
I't work for anyone.

470
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:40.200
I'm just having fun.

471
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:40.980
Yeah, yeah.

472
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:41.759
And he really is.

473
00:20:41.819 --> 00:20:45.960
It's infectious, you know, and like I think this season has all

474
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:49.559
kinds of problems with production and script and stuff like that.

475
00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:52.200
But just the underlying feel of it.

476
00:20:52.259 --> 00:20:55.440
Just, it seems, it's so enjoyable.

477
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.440
You know, it comes back to something you were saying earlier

478
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:02.819
Richard, in that when I was a child, I preferred Lila War to Mary

479
00:21:02.819 --> 00:21:03.420
Tann.

480
00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:04.200
Int you, interesting.

481
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:07.259
Now, as an adult, I prefer Mary Tam Talal Award.

482
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.039
But that's like saying, and I'm sure I've used this analogy on the

483
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:11.640
podcast before.

484
00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:14.039
I prefer dark chocolate to milk chocolate.

485
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:15.660
Also, Tim terms, too.

486
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.000
Yeah, they're very different.

487
00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:18.660
Lovely sweetness.

488
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:19.380
They're very different.

489
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:21.000
And it works.

490
00:21:21.059 --> 00:21:22.740
The character is strong for having both of them.

491
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:26.759
I think what also helps is, you know, for us as fans and we've

492
00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:28.619
seen interviews and been to conventions and whatnot.

493
00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:34.200
Mary Tam and Lala Ward always speak so highly of each other. and

494
00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:35.400
their respective strengths.

495
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:39.059
We'll come back to that, again, in creature, creature from the

496
00:21:39.059 --> 00:21:39.359
pit.

497
00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:42.119
But when Lala talks about her outfit, she says, you know, at the

498
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.400
beginning they were giving me stuff for Mary Tam, who is this

499
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:46.140
bombshell model.

500
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:51.359
And, you know, I'm more and, oh, I don't want to say that Mary

501
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:51.900
isn't.

502
00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:53.880
But I'm more, I'm more girly.

503
00:21:53.940 --> 00:21:58.259
I have a well, I have that sort of small mousy English figure, I

504
00:21:58.259 --> 00:21:59.099
think she says at one point.

505
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:01.200
Oh, I'm glad you said that because I thought you were talking

506
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.039
about yourself then.

507
00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:05.819
Both hands were.

508
00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:07.559
Have we talked about regeneration?

509
00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:12.000
Ah, yes, the regeneration of the triangle.

510
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:13.019
And of the body.

511
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:14.579
So what happened?

512
00:22:14.640 --> 00:22:17.400
She burns through half her regeneration.

513
00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:17.880
Projections?

514
00:22:17.940 --> 00:22:19.019
Just like Choji.

515
00:22:19.079 --> 00:22:22.259
Or projections or remember David Tennant grows a hand back.

516
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:24.240
So, you know, it's morphic.

517
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.539
And of course, she is more of an establishment time lord.

518
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:30.599
So maybe time lords can control where a generation is today.

519
00:22:30.660 --> 00:22:35.579
It's also been a few 100 years since doctors left Gallifrey. you

520
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:37.019
know, and she's got a triple first.

521
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:38.579
Yeah, that's true.

522
00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:39.660
That's part of the whole.

523
00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:41.579
There's a lot of the lovely Tibetan stuff.

524
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:44.400
I don't think you mentioned, I haven't heard it yet in your last

525
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:44.819
podcast.

526
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:49.319
I believe that part of Romana's 1st Romana stoicism, and she is a

527
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:52.980
product of the academy, so that her removal from or disengagement

528
00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:55.559
from the narrative was entirely at one with the character.

529
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:58.920
She's, as you say, disdained to act.

530
00:22:58.980 --> 00:23:02.099
Yeah, you know, I think it's just Mary, Tam Slum, giving his TV

531
00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:02.759
for a year.

532
00:23:02.819 --> 00:23:04.019
Yeah, possibly show.

533
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:07.259
But it also works for the character of Romana having never been

534
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:07.740
engaged.

535
00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:11.880
And when she's tortured by the shadow, the radiation treatment.

536
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.500
The thing that struck me, although it didn't hit me at the time

537
00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:18.420
because I was too busy just getting excited and watching this

538
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:23.039
change, is that you remember when Billy regenerated, there was no

539
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.400
reference to, in fact, there are a couple of moments we've talked

540
00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.519
about in the past of him having one heart, and it's mentioned that

541
00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:31.559
you know, he only has a single heart, and it seems to be that time

542
00:23:31.559 --> 00:23:34.740
lords only get the wrestle on body after the, there is a

543
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:35.400
suggestion of that.

544
00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:40.559
There is except that the Dulcians and the dominators have 2 hearts

545
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:41.099
each.

546
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:41.819
Yeah, well.

547
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:43.680
So it kind of kicked in for Pad either.

548
00:23:43.740 --> 00:23:46.319
Ah, but the dominators didn't scan Patrick.

549
00:23:46.380 --> 00:23:47.279
Oh, I didn't know.

550
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:50.880
They only scaned Jamie and then they said, shall we scan the shall

551
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:51.599
we scan the other one?

552
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:52.859
No, no, they must be the same.

553
00:23:52.920 --> 00:23:55.259
They look they all look the same to us.

554
00:23:55.319 --> 00:23:58.440
But there's some Billy references that he only had a single one.

555
00:23:58.500 --> 00:23:59.400
Yes.

556
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:02.519
I would just to just think that she was more fragile and she

557
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:04.259
needed to, and she didn't make a big deal of it.

558
00:24:04.319 --> 00:24:05.759
She just made a party of it.

559
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:09.539
But it is also just a fun thing to get time off.

560
00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:10.140
Sorry to do.

561
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:12.660
Douglas Adams take on the whole.

562
00:24:12.720 --> 00:24:17.099
It's why the master gets introduced to the new series by having

563
00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:21.000
him regenerate because that's something that we've seen a time or

564
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:21.359
due.

565
00:24:21.420 --> 00:24:25.440
It's the thing that the time laws do is they regenerate and they

566
00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:29.339
are the star of Doctor Who. and that's the thing that the master

567
00:24:29.339 --> 00:24:30.660
tries to do.

568
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:31.920
It's just been the last story.

569
00:24:31.980 --> 00:24:32.220
Yes.

570
00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:39.480
Come to think of it, the only time lord, we'd seen regenerate in

571
00:24:39.480 --> 00:24:42.660
different incarnations where it's been confirmed that it's random

572
00:24:42.660 --> 00:24:44.279
is the doctor.

573
00:24:44.339 --> 00:24:47.940
Barusa regenerates and he never comments whether he wanted this

574
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:48.660
body or not.

575
00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.019
He never seems to be disdainful of his body.

576
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:53.819
We get that line later on in the 5 doctors.

577
00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:55.859
Your regeneration has not improved your stubbornness.

578
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:57.720
That doesn't tell us it's random.

579
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:00.779
Because he chooses to be campy 20 old British character.

580
00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:04.619
Yeah, you know, you would, wouldn't you?

581
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:08.519
He sits there watching RKO pictures and going, yeah, I'll have

582
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:10.380
that one. with Everett Horton.

583
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:11.220
Thank you again.

584
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:16.619
Now, there are 2 fan theories I'm going to mention for Lala's

585
00:25:16.619 --> 00:25:17.400
regeneration.

586
00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:19.799
Now, when I say fan, there is these are officially published.

587
00:25:19.859 --> 00:25:22.920
One of them is in the galafray audio, so I'm not going to say what

588
00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:24.900
that explanation is because that's still available.

589
00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:26.279
Yeah, I've enjoyed.

590
00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:28.559
And Richard, that was your recommendation at the end of season

591
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:28.740
15.

592
00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:30.299
I do recommend people go out and get that.

593
00:25:30.359 --> 00:25:32.640
But there's also a short story, which is out of print.

594
00:25:32.700 --> 00:25:35.039
So I will discuss that called The Lying Old Witch in the

595
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:35.759
wardrobe.

596
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.079
And the concept behind that is Mary Tams Romana is stumbling

597
00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:41.940
around the Tartars after the Armageddon factor.

598
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.079
The fake section of the key to time was radiating evil particles

599
00:25:46.079 --> 00:25:48.960
and is forcing her to regenerate.

600
00:25:49.019 --> 00:25:53.279
She stumbles into the TARDIS wardrobe, and there's this old, pretty

601
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.940
much librarian there of the TARDIS wardrobe, and she says, oh dear

602
00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:00.119
you know, you're so weak, you know, sit down here, and imprisons

603
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:00.779
Romana.

604
00:26:00.839 --> 00:26:04.200
It's an avatar of the Tartars, jealous of all the fun the doctor

605
00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:05.400
and Romana are having.

606
00:26:05.460 --> 00:26:09.839
And so, it takes the form of Princess Astra and dresses up like

607
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:13.680
the doctor and goes out and has this horrible adventure on Skyrim

608
00:26:13.740 --> 00:26:16.799
tortured by these dalek things and then it's buried under rocks.

609
00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.440
So it comes back and says, no, you know what, dear, you can have

610
00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:22.140
him, but now you have to look like this zap.

611
00:26:22.200 --> 00:26:25.619
And that's why she comes out looking like, wow, what an incredibly

612
00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:26.220
silly.

613
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:28.140
But I thought it was worth mentioning.

614
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:31.859
Richard you look very unimpressed.

615
00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:36.960
That's just the point of it, is that it's all open and the more

616
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:39.420
woolly it appears, the more you can play with and write.

617
00:26:39.539 --> 00:26:44.220
You notice we're not talking a lot about the plot or indeed the

618
00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:47.519
narrative or the ideas behind this because you don't really need

619
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:48.420
to, do you?

620
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:49.680
It felt fun.

621
00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:53.099
When I was a kid, you will know this place.

622
00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:58.980
There was an old brickworks behind my house halfway up a

623
00:26:58.980 --> 00:26:59.279
mountain.

624
00:26:59.339 --> 00:27:01.799
No, no, but not that.

625
00:27:02.039 --> 00:27:06.960
So you, the brickworks, it's at a French's forest, there was a

626
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:13.200
giant, there was a big chimney stack, and there were all these, all

627
00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:16.440
of these sort of broken buildings and stuff that looked heaps like

628
00:27:16.440 --> 00:27:17.519
Destiny of the Dark.

629
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:23.579
A very small boy in some poor woman's stolen pink dressing gown.

630
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:28.440
That was me with a tire pressure gauge as my Sonic Screwdriver

631
00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:30.539
playing in the backyard.

632
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.200
I mean, this was the doctor who, you know, it was, you know, the

633
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.960
2nd time maybe that I was aware that there was a new season.

634
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:40.440
Like, I think I would have been in 6th class.

635
00:27:40.500 --> 00:27:43.019
You know, this was hugely hugely exciting.

636
00:27:43.259 --> 00:27:45.000
This is our season.

637
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:49.619
Tom came amongst us to send us maybe the 2nd coming, 1st coming

638
00:27:49.619 --> 00:27:49.799
actually.

639
00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:53.579
Yeah, no, well, I think Creature from the Pit was on when Tom came

640
00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:56.339
to the famous Grace Brothers car park thing.

641
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:00.119
And he was certainly wearing this outfit from Destiny.

642
00:28:00.180 --> 00:28:02.579
So should we talk about rock, paper, scissors?

643
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:03.960
A game theory.

644
00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:08.279
We've mentioned before John von Neumann's game theory of 1928

645
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:12.660
which was used by the Americans to, from 28 onwards as part of

646
00:28:12.660 --> 00:28:17.039
their wargaming strategy, is how will America succeed in post-war

647
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:17.880
and Cold War?

648
00:28:17.940 --> 00:28:19.259
How will we conduct our battles?

649
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:23.880
And it actually dictated the post-war US CIA in military

650
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:24.960
strategies.

651
00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:28.920
So rock, paper, scissors, then comes in as Iching.

652
00:28:28.980 --> 00:28:30.779
Yeah, it encounters that.

653
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:33.059
Oh, because it's random?

654
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:36.839
Yeah, there are 2 forces here in this whole season where we can

655
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:37.200
get to it.

656
00:28:37.259 --> 00:28:37.980
Let's get to it now.

657
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:43.680
There's a sense that it works because it makes something that's

658
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:48.059
you know, a little bit complex and a little bit abstract, visible

659
00:28:48.059 --> 00:28:51.900
you know, through physical action, so we can see the doctor in

660
00:28:51.900 --> 00:28:53.880
Romana playing scissors rock paper.

661
00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:55.019
Roxy's paper.

662
00:28:55.079 --> 00:28:56.460
Pepsis?

663
00:28:56.519 --> 00:28:56.819
Anyway.

664
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.019
Lizard Spock.

665
00:28:58.079 --> 00:29:00.960
And you can see the Mofellans doing it, and you can see a very

666
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:01.920
different outcome in it.

667
00:29:01.980 --> 00:29:04.079
It's kind of fun and funny.

668
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:07.500
You know, it adds to a kind of lighthearted atmosphere.

669
00:29:07.619 --> 00:29:08.579
But, of course, it makes no sense.

670
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:13.619
There is no logical move to make in scissors, rock, paper, and it

671
00:29:13.619 --> 00:29:14.940
is essentially random.

672
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.859
There is no way that the 2 robots would do the same.

673
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:21.119
Although they're looking at the pattern that the doctor, as you

674
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:23.160
said, getting it in order.

675
00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:27.359
So they're just repeating a pattern, you know, we've started with

676
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.420
the rock, then we'll start because the paper, then the scissors.

677
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.359
So they're each repeating, but you could go an arbitrary number of

678
00:29:33.359 --> 00:29:35.400
levels back, 2nd guessing someone.

679
00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:36.240
Do you know what I mean?

680
00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:38.579
Which means that there's actually no right answer.

681
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:41.819
It does suggest that their battle computers were actually

682
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:45.900
mastermind plastic sets that were around in the day before we had

683
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:46.259
our own.

684
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.880
We used to put little coloured pegs in.

685
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:48.480
They were great.

686
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:49.079
I love like that.

687
00:29:49.140 --> 00:29:49.740
They were good.

688
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.319
And they made good dalek bumps on your cardboard dialects when you

689
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:52.859
had to make them.

690
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:54.480
But yeah, I remember that plastic game.

691
00:29:54.539 --> 00:29:55.019
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

692
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:59.279
But there was, yes, because really if they're super, super clever

693
00:29:59.279 --> 00:30:03.539
computers can generate random stuff. codes, so...

694
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:04.440
Yeah, yeah.

695
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.619
I mean, this, this, you know, is it's Terry Nation trying to

696
00:30:07.619 --> 00:30:08.519
understand computers.

697
00:30:08.579 --> 00:30:11.640
Yeah, it's Terrenation trying to understand anything after 1965.

698
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:16.319
Whereas, you know, Douglas Adams was mad on computers and what

699
00:30:16.319 --> 00:30:19.980
something like owned one of the 1st Apple computers in the UK when

700
00:30:19.980 --> 00:30:22.079
it was just some circuit boards glued to a piece of wood.

701
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.539
Does that bring us to the Mavellans then?

702
00:30:24.599 --> 00:30:27.359
So they're very poorly designed, aren't they?

703
00:30:27.420 --> 00:30:28.500
No, they're beautiful.

704
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:30.839
Oh, you mean from a security standpoint?

705
00:30:30.900 --> 00:30:32.220
Well, they just rip their battery off.

706
00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:33.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

707
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.440
I love that they look like my bionic woman, $6000000 man doll when

708
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.259
you roll them up and they've got a plastic insert and they're back

709
00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:44.339
exactly the same as the plastic thing with the stuff, which I

710
00:30:44.339 --> 00:30:44.940
still have, yes.

711
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:46.200
Exactly the same.

712
00:30:46.259 --> 00:30:49.500
And of course, we've got Tony is sober.

713
00:30:49.559 --> 00:30:50.759
Yes, we own him.

714
00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:51.599
He's gorgeous.

715
00:30:51.660 --> 00:30:54.240
He was also in Journey Into Space, one of the reboot ones.

716
00:30:54.299 --> 00:30:58.200
You know, we talked about Charles Crichton's Landmark 50s space

717
00:30:58.200 --> 00:31:02.220
opera, which was the last thing in British broadcasting to outrage

718
00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:03.539
television at the same time.

719
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:07.140
It was actually play the 2nd series was in the 60s.

720
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.200
Antonio sober was in one of the reboots in the early 70s.

721
00:31:10.619 --> 00:31:12.900
Again, by Charles Crichton.

722
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:14.039
Really clever.

723
00:31:14.099 --> 00:31:15.299
They're not just rockets in space.

724
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:21.180
They were all Philip K. Dick, mind screwy stuff of believing

725
00:31:21.180 --> 00:31:22.019
they're somewhere else.

726
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.160
So one of the astronauts believes he's in the Australian desert

727
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:29.700
and living with a kangaroo, and the flying doctor.

728
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:30.359
Yes.

729
00:31:30.420 --> 00:31:32.400
So before Skippy ever came in.

730
00:31:32.460 --> 00:31:36.420
But anyway, yeah, Tony Osoba's been part of British SF tradition

731
00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:38.400
for a long time, and he's in porridge.

732
00:31:38.460 --> 00:31:39.960
We've got Peter Straker.

733
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:40.740
It's very good.

734
00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:41.579
Under Cheryl.

735
00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:45.779
Yes, and the opposite of Dar Ross.

736
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:49.200
We now all know a new way of pronouncing...

737
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:50.039
Star Ross.

738
00:31:50.039 --> 00:31:50.759
Star Ross.

739
00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:54.059
He's really good. really cool and menacing, isn't he?

740
00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:56.039
He's sort of fabulously androgynous as well.

741
00:31:56.099 --> 00:31:58.920
He's actually a butch Peter Wingard, isn't he?

742
00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:02.160
And quite, you know, he's quite good looking.

743
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.099
Suzanne Danielle.

744
00:32:05.160 --> 00:32:09.660
And what about the press at the time when her agent was pissing

745
00:32:09.660 --> 00:32:14.640
off Williams and everybody else, but, you know, the publicity...

746
00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:15.720
Oh, yeah, remember all that?

747
00:32:15.779 --> 00:32:19.680
Every woman who was in Doctor Who in the 1970s seemed to get their

748
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:21.240
agent to say that to the press.

749
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.339
Yeah, not Beatrix Lehman.

750
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:26.400
Couldn't we've had Beatrix or even running around time and space

751
00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:28.319
trying to hit Kroll with a truncheon?

752
00:32:28.500 --> 00:32:30.059
It worked.

753
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.819
Try and hit a roto with a crunch.

754
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:35.579
No, the Mavellans are such a great design.

755
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:36.779
I mean, they're so 70s.

756
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:38.160
They disco robots, aren't they?

757
00:32:38.220 --> 00:32:39.660
Yes, they are, which is what they should be.

758
00:32:39.720 --> 00:32:41.099
Yeah, but also...

759
00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:42.119
You can make them pretty.

760
00:32:42.299 --> 00:32:46.259
It is telling that they don't turn up in the 80s even though they

761
00:32:46.259 --> 00:32:46.799
get mentioned.

762
00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:49.859
Yeah, it doesn't want us to look at them again.

763
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:51.839
They're too they're too silly for Eric Saywood.

764
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:52.859
They're 270s.

765
00:32:52.980 --> 00:32:54.720
They do part of, exactly.

766
00:32:54.779 --> 00:32:56.940
And they're too much fun for our exam.

767
00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:57.359
Yes.

768
00:32:57.420 --> 00:33:01.799
Something we've criticised the series 4 often is, of course, that

769
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:03.599
everyone cast is white.

770
00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:07.259
Whereas the Mavelans are not.

771
00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:10.500
The Mavellans are all different nationalities.

772
00:33:10.559 --> 00:33:16.200
The, um, the extras are a mix of nationalities as well.

773
00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:21.180
Unfortunately, the extras are mostly crap in terms of...

774
00:33:21.180 --> 00:33:23.640
To the point, there must have been something awful going on with

775
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.279
the unions or the pacers because they really want to get shot

776
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:26.759
don't they?

777
00:33:26.819 --> 00:33:28.500
Yeah, well, that's awful.

778
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:29.460
That's really great for you.

779
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:31.440
I believe Ken Greaves says on the commentary.

780
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:35.279
You know, I had such problems with this scene because I told them

781
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.660
you know, we didn't know what the dialect Ray did, but it's like

782
00:33:39.660 --> 00:33:40.859
it kills you in a 2nd.

783
00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:42.779
That must be painful at that out.

784
00:33:42.839 --> 00:33:44.039
And they said, you're not paying us to act.

785
00:33:44.099 --> 00:33:47.160
It doesn't have dropped. it was another union.

786
00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:48.539
And that's why they're smiling.

787
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:50.460
Yeah, it's another union.

788
00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:51.599
We outsmarted the director.

789
00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:56.279
Yeah, well, it's your face looking stupid on this production. and

790
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.839
showing that you can't act.

791
00:33:57.900 --> 00:34:01.019
You know, it's it's not a very smart decision, Saturday.

792
00:34:01.140 --> 00:34:03.420
But that is interesting you touch on that because we're going to

793
00:34:03.420 --> 00:34:05.579
see those problems as this season progresses.

794
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:09.539
The BBC was very much at the point of things that maybe you and I

795
00:34:09.539 --> 00:34:10.980
would support the union movement.

796
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:11.579
I certainly do.

797
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:14.159
Oh, the emotion of it, but my God, there were some greedy people

798
00:34:14.159 --> 00:34:17.400
that got in there and ruined it, ruined the party for everybody

799
00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:19.980
else, and that's just one more example of it.

800
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:23.820
You know, of course I support them saying, look, this isn't what

801
00:34:23.820 --> 00:34:25.019
we're getting paid for.

802
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:29.820
But at the same time, and yeah, I've, when I came to work in

803
00:34:29.820 --> 00:34:31.860
television and they told me how much I was getting paid, I went

804
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:32.820
very quiet on the phone.

805
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.019
And the thing is, they thought I was reacting because it was a

806
00:34:37.019 --> 00:34:37.619
crap wage.

807
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:40.260
And no, I was reacting to the fact that I'm sitting behind a

808
00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:42.239
computer. paid as much as I am to teach.

809
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.340
So I'm fine with that.

810
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.860
But at the same time, in my 1st contract, I was asked to do a lot

811
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:48.900
of stuff that wasn't strictly in my job, but I thought...

812
00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:49.679
A lot of extra time.

813
00:34:49.679 --> 00:34:50.880
And a lot of extra time.

814
00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:51.360
But you know what?

815
00:34:51.360 --> 00:34:54.420
I thought, okay, I want to actually get somewhere in this

816
00:34:54.420 --> 00:34:55.019
industry.

817
00:34:55.019 --> 00:35:00.719
And it's sad that you can't get somewhere without giving a little

818
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:02.579
bit extra to what you're asked to do.

819
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:03.960
But it's like, you know what?

820
00:35:04.019 --> 00:35:05.880
Get to the point where you can say no.

821
00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:07.739
And that is capitalism, though.

822
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:09.960
I'm being a little bit older than you.

823
00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:12.900
I have to say it never gets any better. it's actually getting

824
00:35:12.900 --> 00:35:15.119
worse than when it did when I started out.

825
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:17.280
We're probably back to the script now, aren't we?

826
00:35:17.340 --> 00:35:20.400
Well, I'm just wondering how much more time it takes to do a bit

827
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:23.579
of a vague scream and fall over rather than just lower yourself

828
00:35:23.579 --> 00:35:25.920
gently to the ground when the dalek shoots.

829
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:27.420
With a big grin on your face.

830
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.059
It is nice to see some old costumes in those scenes.

831
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:33.840
Yeah, there's that huge guy who dresses like a draconian.

832
00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:35.940
I think he does that to relax, actually.

833
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.500
Yeah, he'll get in anything.

834
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:42.900
Well, that's sort of the equivalent of like a futuristic furry, you

835
00:35:42.900 --> 00:35:45.960
know, instead of dressing as a fox, you dress as a rectilian

836
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:46.500
alien.

837
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.199
There's a couple of merestrons, I believe.

838
00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:52.619
Someone's wearing someone's wearing desks, trousers from the

839
00:35:52.619 --> 00:35:53.460
robots of death.

840
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:54.840
Oh, I should notice that.

841
00:35:54.900 --> 00:35:57.659
There's a kind of Charles Brosnan character too, isn't there?

842
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.000
Is there a sort of, oh, but that's also Tom.

843
00:36:00.059 --> 00:36:04.199
Is this the 1st time we've ever seen Tom go the full Chuck Norris

844
00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:06.360
and threatened to blow up?

845
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:09.239
And actually, well, he's halfhearted about it.

846
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:14.519
But he does set the detonators off to kill Davros. when we get the

847
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:15.780
whole back offline.

848
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:20.400
Doesn't doesn't doesn't he let the Daleks kill 2 people before he

849
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:21.659
responds?

850
00:36:21.719 --> 00:36:22.619
Really?

851
00:36:22.619 --> 00:36:23.460
But Patrick Track that?

852
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:24.539
do that kind of thing too.

853
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:25.019
You know?

854
00:36:25.079 --> 00:36:25.500
Yeah.

855
00:36:25.559 --> 00:36:29.280
But, you know, it's well, it harks back to his argument of, could

856
00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:30.300
you then kill that child?

857
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:30.960
you know?

858
00:36:31.019 --> 00:36:34.679
He's like, what is one life worth to the daleks?

859
00:36:34.739 --> 00:36:36.179
And here, he's kind of inverting it.

860
00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:38.699
He's like, how many lives are worth Davros?

861
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.380
And in the end it's two.

862
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:41.639
Still pretty awful.

863
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:43.260
Oh, yeah, it is awful.

864
00:36:43.320 --> 00:36:43.920
But that's the thing.

865
00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:47.340
This is Tom's moment in this story where he's not larking about.

866
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:50.940
And we get we get the old fire and we get the old steel.

867
00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:52.920
And we get it in every story this season.

868
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:54.000
Absolutely.

869
00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:54.239
Yeah.

870
00:36:54.300 --> 00:36:55.739
Yeah, yeah. pointing out each time.

871
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:55.980
Yeah.

872
00:36:56.039 --> 00:36:56.699
No, it's really good.

873
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:58.860
He really loses his temper.

874
00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:02.039
It makes those moments even more effective because, you know, one

875
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:05.280
moment he's gabbling on about Alpha Centauri winning the table

876
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:06.840
tennis championships or whatever it was.

877
00:37:06.900 --> 00:37:09.659
The intergalactic games.

878
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.699
And then the next I ducked it.

879
00:37:11.820 --> 00:37:15.239
It's a very Douglas Adams thing, he does it in Hitchcock because

880
00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:16.440
he does it in Duke gently.

881
00:37:16.500 --> 00:37:20.760
It's you build up tension with humour, with attention

882
00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:24.000
correspondent to that, so that when you take the humour away, the

883
00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:25.559
tension is ramped up.

884
00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:26.219
Yeah.

885
00:37:26.219 --> 00:37:27.719
You really see it in City of Death.

886
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:28.800
Yeah, absolutely.

887
00:37:28.860 --> 00:37:31.920
We have an obelisk circling around us, gentlemen.

888
00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:34.800
Todd has a question you'd like to ask about Daros.

889
00:37:34.860 --> 00:37:36.000
Dar Ross.

890
00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:37.619
Sorry, I was being King Greve.

891
00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:43.440
So you'll be pleased to note that I've installed a brand new

892
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:45.000
device in my time bubble.

893
00:37:45.059 --> 00:37:48.480
It's called the Randomiser, and it takes me to stories of varying

894
00:37:48.480 --> 00:37:48.840
quality.

895
00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:49.920
You know what?

896
00:37:49.980 --> 00:37:51.900
I actually quite like a lot of this story.

897
00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:53.699
I really like the boney M's.

898
00:37:53.820 --> 00:37:58.380
I mean the Movellans, and I like all of the location work around

899
00:37:58.380 --> 00:37:59.099
the ruins.

900
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:02.039
But what is it, guys, with the Daleks?

901
00:38:02.039 --> 00:38:03.840
And with Davros?

902
00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:05.699
The dog is dire.

903
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:08.699
And what do you think of David Goodison's performance?

904
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:09.840
Why does it fail?

905
00:38:09.900 --> 00:38:12.539
I've got to activate the randomiser?

906
00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:16.199
Apparently, it works on the process of potluck, or as I like to

907
00:38:16.199 --> 00:38:18.840
call it, I'm taking a gamble with time.

908
00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:25.559
I remember being horrendously, hideously crushed with

909
00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:29.099
disappointment when I first saw Davros.

910
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:32.579
So, Davros is the... he's the end of episode two reveal, isn't

911
00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:32.760
he?

912
00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:36.480
He doesn't appear for the first couple of episodes, we get our

913
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:39.420
traditional end of episode one is the Daleks appear.

914
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:41.639
Then we get Davros appear at the end of episode two.

915
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:44.159
So he only gets 2 episodes where he gets dialogue.

916
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:47.159
The mask is vastly worse.

917
00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:48.420
It's the same mask.

918
00:38:48.480 --> 00:38:51.239
The same mask. glueing it to the guy's face.

919
00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:54.239
Because David Gooderson's head is bigger than Michael wishes.

920
00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:56.159
They had to split it up the back.

921
00:38:56.219 --> 00:38:58.320
And it still didn't fit properly.

922
00:38:58.380 --> 00:39:02.820
So, you know, it's his own chin, rub and the chin of the mask.

923
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:03.900
Yeah, it was a mess.

924
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:05.699
Yeah, it just looks terrible.

925
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:06.960
I mean, it looks terrible.

926
00:39:07.019 --> 00:39:10.920
And like it allowed Michael Wisher to show his bottom lip.

927
00:39:10.980 --> 00:39:13.739
Like they just coloured Michael Wish's bottom lip.

928
00:39:13.800 --> 00:39:16.800
But there's something odd about Goodison's face.

929
00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:20.460
I'm not sure what he looks like, although I think he's the barman

930
00:39:20.460 --> 00:39:25.320
in the 1st episode of Hitchhikers, the TV series.

931
00:39:25.380 --> 00:39:27.480
He can't do the voice.

932
00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:28.980
No, it's really weird.

933
00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:30.360
He's not showing the accent.

934
00:39:30.420 --> 00:39:33.900
And like, I think they do treat the voice later.

935
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.679
I gathered that he was picked because he could do impressions.

936
00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:40.500
No, they actually did careful auditions.

937
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:43.619
As they did with the K9, Yeah, they were doing it last year.

938
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.960
David Bryant, it was picked, of course, he was the best available

939
00:39:45.960 --> 00:39:48.599
and David Goodison was also the best.

940
00:39:48.659 --> 00:39:50.219
Yes, he was picked because he can do impressions.

941
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.760
Yeah, because, I mean, I think Michael Wisher, when we did our

942
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:56.820
Pertwee retrospect, if I said that I thought Michael Wisher was

943
00:39:56.820 --> 00:40:01.079
the best guest star in the Pertwee era as car league, I think he's

944
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:04.199
just terrifically funny, and his performances, Davros is really

945
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:05.519
extremely good.

946
00:40:05.579 --> 00:40:08.940
Yeah, even though coming up, Terry Malloy gives a completely

947
00:40:08.940 --> 00:40:12.119
different performance from Michael Wisher, it's still very good.

948
00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:18.239
It does the thing that we should does of having 2 voices.

949
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:21.119
You know, he's got the ranty, shouty voice.

950
00:40:21.179 --> 00:40:26.460
And then he's got that sort of Philip Maddock, quiet, menacing

951
00:40:26.460 --> 00:40:27.000
voice.

952
00:40:27.059 --> 00:40:30.360
David Gooderson is just always somewhere in between.

953
00:40:30.420 --> 00:40:35.639
It's not it's not quiet and but it's not shouting megalomaniacal.

954
00:40:35.699 --> 00:40:37.980
Yeah, it's just not good.

955
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:39.960
It's not like Davros.

956
00:40:40.019 --> 00:40:43.019
I mean, I think I think Julian Bleach puts in a quite different

957
00:40:43.019 --> 00:40:44.699
performance as well, isn't that?

958
00:40:44.760 --> 00:40:45.719
Pretty spectacular, yeah.

959
00:40:45.780 --> 00:40:46.380
It is.

960
00:40:46.440 --> 00:40:48.599
You know, like, I think he's probably better than Wishan.

961
00:40:48.599 --> 00:40:51.360
He's helped by the fact that he's given a mask that lets him act

962
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.079
whereas we should have, you know, had a rubber bag on his head.

963
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:59.699
But that all of them get, that sort of gentle, quiet voice being

964
00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:03.300
happening. as well as the scary Randy voice.

965
00:41:03.480 --> 00:41:09.719
Gudeson isn't used as anything so much as a toddler in a

966
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:12.059
wheelchair being pushed around at a fun fair, is he?

967
00:41:12.059 --> 00:41:13.139
No, exactly.

968
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:16.739
You know, yeah, he's not given a great script to work with.

969
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:22.739
And the weird thing is, Tom, in those scenes, it's like he's still

970
00:41:22.739 --> 00:41:25.500
acting against Michael Wisher, you know, he's every bidding good

971
00:41:25.500 --> 00:41:29.039
as good in the scenes with Davros, here as he was with the scenes

972
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:32.579
with Davros in Genesis, despite the fact that Gudison isn't

973
00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:34.920
anywhere approaching that.

974
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:38.460
There's the scene in episode 4 later on where they talk about the

975
00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:41.099
you know, those sort of weird paradox that they found themselves

976
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:44.579
in with the stalemate computers thing, you know, which virtually

977
00:41:44.579 --> 00:41:48.000
echos the, you know, let us talk as men of science.

978
00:41:48.059 --> 00:41:50.340
It is a very similar scene.

979
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:54.119
I mean, even Terry has realised that putting Davros and the doctor

980
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:59.159
together and just getting them to talk is pretty spectacular and

981
00:41:59.159 --> 00:42:03.659
that seems to have been the basis for the witches familiar in this

982
00:42:03.659 --> 00:42:04.920
year's Doctor Who.

983
00:42:04.980 --> 00:42:07.139
You know, it's something that works reliably.

984
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.780
But Gooderson's performance isn't really up to it.

985
00:42:09.900 --> 00:42:12.780
Something I do like about Davros in this.

986
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.599
And you could see it as a plot hole is, of course, the doctor

987
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:19.139
resolves everything by arm wrestling, Davros, and, you know

988
00:42:19.139 --> 00:42:20.940
forcing him to press the button himself.

989
00:42:21.000 --> 00:42:23.579
And some might ask, why has he got the destruct button on his

990
00:42:23.579 --> 00:42:23.880
chair?

991
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:26.940
Well, the last time he put a really important button on the other

992
00:42:26.940 --> 00:42:29.579
side of the room, he got exterminated, didn't he?

993
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:31.440
He hasn't had time to put that in yet.

994
00:42:31.500 --> 00:42:35.519
He did also have the button that turned his uh turned his life

995
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:38.039
support system off on his chair as well.

996
00:42:38.099 --> 00:42:41.039
Which seemed like a fairly pointless one.

997
00:42:41.159 --> 00:42:42.840
We talked about that at the time.

998
00:42:42.840 --> 00:42:45.719
Yeah, sort of risque fun and games with neither.

999
00:42:45.900 --> 00:42:48.719
It doesn't have neither this time either.

1000
00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.699
And, you know, it doesn't.

1001
00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:53.039
There's no analogue to Nider. either.

1002
00:42:53.099 --> 00:42:55.619
You know, there's no sort of assistant character.

1003
00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:58.440
And, you know, when he gets to Terry Malloy, the only kind of

1004
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:01.139
assistance, he has, he has to brainwash, you know, I think the

1005
00:43:01.139 --> 00:43:03.719
story of Dazros in the original series is all about how he's

1006
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:04.500
missing Nider.

1007
00:43:04.559 --> 00:43:06.599
Well, I'm missing night.

1008
00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:07.440
Yeah, me too.

1009
00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:09.420
That's all I wanted to know.

1010
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:12.900
Romana versus Cheryl.

1011
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:15.000
She does kick his arm off.

1012
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:17.159
Does it really?

1013
00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:17.820
Yeah, yeah.

1014
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.860
Romana versus Cheryl. yeah Actually, that would be a fun little

1015
00:43:22.860 --> 00:43:25.860
UFC electronic game, wouldn't it?

1016
00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:28.260
to see Romana and Cheryl.

1017
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.619
This is from, if anyone's wondering, because you know, we like to

1018
00:43:31.619 --> 00:43:32.400
play antecedents.

1019
00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:35.340
There's a magazine called Astounding Science Fiction, which was

1020
00:43:35.340 --> 00:43:40.079
one of the seminals, you know, the pulp fiction stuff. 1953 in

1021
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:44.099
March, Robert Sheckley wrote a story called Fools Mate, which was

1022
00:43:44.099 --> 00:43:48.900
essentially 2 vast Battle Fleet suspended in space, pointing at

1023
00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:52.800
each other for decades until one of them worked out how to pull a

1024
00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:53.400
random.

1025
00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:56.699
They could just call a random function.

1026
00:43:56.699 --> 00:43:57.179
They could.

1027
00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:00.119
But more interestingly, and we're going to get this through this

1028
00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:03.840
season, the counterculture of the 70s has really come home to

1029
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:07.500
Doctor Who now with Adams and Lala and Tom and Williams.

1030
00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:11.159
The biggest giveaway in this is the rock, paper, scissors, the

1031
00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.380
random thing, but people were tossing coins.

1032
00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:14.880
We'll see that next season as well.

1033
00:44:14.940 --> 00:44:16.139
People were tossing coins.

1034
00:44:16.139 --> 00:44:19.199
It was actually part of a deliberate Hayde Ashbury kind of

1035
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:24.119
thinking positioning itself against the reductionism of the

1036
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:27.420
military thinking, Vietnam and post-Vietnam.

1037
00:44:27.539 --> 00:44:30.420
And when we were talking before about battle fleets and poising

1038
00:44:30.420 --> 00:44:36.599
this actually has a direct correlation to published outcomes of

1039
00:44:36.599 --> 00:44:39.420
military theory when we were talking about Von Neumann's game

1040
00:44:39.420 --> 00:44:43.500
theory, and also Alfred Northwhited's symbolic logic, which is

1041
00:44:43.500 --> 00:44:46.500
actually cited in this, which, if you know, computer language, and

1042
00:44:46.500 --> 00:44:51.659
or Nand, nor those gates, which is, you know, giving numerical

1043
00:44:51.659 --> 00:44:55.860
values to score the success for particular. tested strategy.

1044
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.559
But using this system, it came out in 69.

1045
00:44:58.739 --> 00:45:02.699
The algorithms anachronistically demonstrated that the US had won

1046
00:45:02.699 --> 00:45:04.380
in Vietnam in 1965.

1047
00:45:05.219 --> 00:45:09.239
So there was this whole thing that's coming about to get us out of

1048
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:13.440
this war getting, you know, Nixon, of course, falling apart with

1049
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:19.860
Watergate, the oil crash, the dollar being removed from the gold

1050
00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:20.460
standard.

1051
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:23.039
In America was really, and therefore, the rest of the world

1052
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:25.260
Britain was having the same problem with the resources as we're

1053
00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:25.800
going to be seeing.

1054
00:45:25.860 --> 00:45:28.920
The counterculture was saying, bring back the human element, bring

1055
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:34.800
back the random happenstance of human folly and fun, and that's, I

1056
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:39.539
think, certainly a driver for Douglas Adams, who, of course, had

1057
00:45:39.539 --> 00:45:42.420
his final year at Cambridge in '74, when this information was all

1058
00:45:42.420 --> 00:45:42.780
coming out.

1059
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:45.659
So we're going to be seeing a lot of that this year.

1060
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:48.119
And the vellans are just toking it, aren't they?

1061
00:45:48.179 --> 00:45:51.000
It's no wonder they've been sitting around not being able to win a

1062
00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:53.940
war because they're spliffing it up in there with their raster

1063
00:45:53.940 --> 00:45:56.880
rolls and they're, of course, they're one of those green things on

1064
00:45:56.880 --> 00:45:57.420
their shoulders.

1065
00:45:57.480 --> 00:46:00.179
I don't I think that's the same stuff that villas being sucking

1066
00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:02.820
away on in the liberator for the last summer.

1067
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:04.019
Bong water.

1068
00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:04.980
Exactly.

1069
00:46:05.039 --> 00:46:08.280
It explains what Davros is shrouded in at the end.

1070
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.539
It's not cryogenic gas.

1071
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:14.159
Don't you love that they've actually got a perfectly sized daddy

1072
00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:19.199
and Davros caviare cum freezer casket on the Mavellan ship?

1073
00:46:19.260 --> 00:46:20.519
He must be delicious.

1074
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:23.039
He must be delicious, but they didn't know they were going to find

1075
00:46:23.039 --> 00:46:24.119
Dar Ross.

1076
00:46:24.179 --> 00:46:24.840
I didn't know that.

1077
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:26.820
I would continue doing that for the rest of the podcast.

1078
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:27.719
Oh, of course.

1079
00:46:27.780 --> 00:46:30.900
Just interesting what you said there about counterculture because

1080
00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:34.800
the other big BBC series happening about counterculture and

1081
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:36.119
reintroducing the human element.

1082
00:46:36.179 --> 00:46:39.599
Blake 7. is going on at this time.

1083
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:45.239
And Terry Nation ends his involvement with Doctor Who this year.

1084
00:46:45.300 --> 00:46:46.079
Yep, yep.

1085
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:48.360
And with Blake 7 this year.

1086
00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:52.199
Terry Nations takes a step back from Blake 7 after this year.

1087
00:46:52.260 --> 00:46:55.619
Blake 7 series 3 in 1980, had a lot of other writers working on

1088
00:46:55.619 --> 00:46:55.800
it.

1089
00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:57.000
Phew.

1090
00:46:57.059 --> 00:47:03.480
Series one is him, but it's him in the sense that this story is

1091
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:03.719
him.

1092
00:47:03.780 --> 00:47:05.519
Yeah, him via Chris Bounce show.

1093
00:47:05.579 --> 00:47:06.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1094
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:06.480
It's him.

1095
00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:09.659
He wrote the 1st script and by the end it was, you know, like a

1096
00:47:09.659 --> 00:47:12.539
summary on the back of a napkin for episode 13.

1097
00:47:12.719 --> 00:47:17.039
Yeah, he, you know, he was certainly writing less and less as the

1098
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:19.920
series went on and then wrote nothing for the 4th series because

1099
00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:23.099
he was moving to America where, you know, he became quite a, quite

1100
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:26.099
a success in Hollywood and wrote, wrote in scripted, things like

1101
00:47:26.099 --> 00:47:27.420
MacGyver and what have you.

1102
00:47:27.480 --> 00:47:29.460
You know, he had quite a good career there.

1103
00:47:29.519 --> 00:47:33.539
But it's very interesting that someone who is so traditional in

1104
00:47:33.539 --> 00:47:39.300
his storytelling and wasn't resistant, say, to strong female

1105
00:47:39.300 --> 00:47:42.840
characters, but had to have it pointed out to him that Terry might

1106
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.239
be an idea to have some strong women in your script, to which

1107
00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:47.519
point he'd go, oh, oh yes, if you think so.

1108
00:47:47.579 --> 00:47:47.940
All right.

1109
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:52.739
It's interesting that he did sort of seem to embrace this

1110
00:47:52.739 --> 00:47:53.699
counterculture.

1111
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:56.820
And despite sort of his very gun mentality of writing.

1112
00:47:57.179 --> 00:48:01.980
Always did seem to be interested in the human element and the idea

1113
00:48:01.980 --> 00:48:06.179
of humanity, triumphing over mechanisation.

1114
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:09.780
We see that in the early Dalek stories of his Dalek flicks.

1115
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:12.780
So he's not entirely horrid, is he?

1116
00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:14.699
No, no, he's not Eric Sable.

1117
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:33.179
Well, dear listeners, we've hit the randomiser, and we're taking

1118
00:48:33.179 --> 00:48:36.300
off from Skaro, who knows where we'll end up next, depending on

1119
00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:39.059
which way you look at it, we're either gonna end up in Paris, or

1120
00:48:39.059 --> 00:48:43.260
possibly on board the Azure Starline up, don't...

1121
00:48:43.320 --> 00:48:44.760
Don't forget to come back next week.

1122
00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:47.400
Don't forget.

1123
00:48:47.579 --> 00:48:49.980
I reckon he's bit.

1124
00:48:50.039 --> 00:48:50.880
Oh, this is good.

1125
00:48:50.940 --> 00:48:51.539
Get it in.

1126
00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:55.500
Don't forget to come back next week where we'll be discussing City

1127
00:48:55.500 --> 00:48:56.039
of Death.

1128
00:48:56.099 --> 00:49:00.000
You can also check out bondfinger.com, where we have commentaries

1129
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.280
for the 1st 5 Sean Connery Bond films.

1130
00:49:02.340 --> 00:49:05.340
Don't forget, you can find us online at flightsthroughentirety.com

1131
00:49:05.340 --> 00:49:08.760
flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on

1132
00:49:08.760 --> 00:49:09.360
Twitter.

1133
00:49:09.420 --> 00:49:13.800
Until we see you next, make all your globules of little protoplasm

1134
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:16.980
that sit around on your home planet, not get delusions of grandeur

1135
00:49:16.980 --> 00:49:18.420
and reprogram your battle computers.

1136
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:19.559
Thank you very much and good night.

1137
00:49:19.619 --> 00:49:20.579
Good night.

1138
00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:21.300
Good everyone.

1139
00:49:22.260 --> 00:49:26.340
That let's fight through entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan

1140
00:49:26.340 --> 00:49:27.599
Jones and Richard Stone.

1141
00:49:27.659 --> 00:49:31.739
This episode, circuit boards glued to a piece of wood was recorded

1142
00:49:31.739 --> 00:49:33.539
on the 6th of December, 2015.

1143
00:49:33.780 --> 00:49:37.440
The next episode will be released on January 24th, 2016.

1144
00:49:37.619 --> 00:49:40.980
We dedicate this episode to Terry Nation, creator of survivors

1145
00:49:40.980 --> 00:49:44.880
Blake 7, the Daleks, the Kraals, the Mecanoids, and the alien

1146
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:45.480
Vorb.

1147
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.199
Okay, Destiny Empity, boy.

1148
00:49:52.260 --> 00:49:52.619
Sorry.

1149
00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:53.400
That's okay.

1150
00:49:53.460 --> 00:49:54.539
Destiny of the Dalek.

1151
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:58.079
Destiny of the Daleks.

1152
00:49:58.139 --> 00:49:59.699
Dog ass.

1153
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:01.380
Keep that in.

1154
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:02.699
That's the name of the episode.

1155
00:50:02.820 --> 00:50:03.719
Sog ass.

1156
00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:04.199
Yeah.

1157
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:06.900
Sixth of December.

1158
00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:10.320
Actually, and there's your there's your tag.

1159
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:17.760
I won't have you flushing my dog's ass about on a podcast.

1160
00:50:17.820 --> 00:50:20.400
Oh, he looks so dignified.