WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:06:41 1 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:33.659 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety 2 00:00:33.659 --> 00:00:36.659 the only Doctor Who podcast who doesn't have any eyebrows. 3 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:37.380 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.979 I'm Nathan, and I'm a curiously redundant vestige of my previous 5 00:00:40.979 --> 00:00:42.659 use as Bouillabaise. 6 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:44.820 Yum, yum. 7 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.659 And yum, yum, indeed, as we head to the cafes of Paris. 8 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:50.579 It's death. 9 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.579 Hooray, it's Grey Perrie. 10 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:10.019 Possibly more accurately called City that has some death in it. 11 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:12.480 It was raining. 12 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:15.900 Well, just before you start off, Nathan, because I may forget to 13 00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:16.739 mention this. 14 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:20.760 Some of you out there may know if you follow me on Facebook that I 15 00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:22.500 have an album called Toys on Tour. 16 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:27.299 I've recently uploaded some photos I took ages ago where I took a 17 00:01:27.299 --> 00:01:32.700 Tom Baker toy to Paris, and I found the gallery where the Tannis 18 00:01:32.700 --> 00:01:36.719 is parked and I found the door to Scaroth's Chateau. 19 00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:41.519 So yeah, expect some toys on tour shots in Paris accompanying this 20 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:41.819 podcast. 21 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:43.079 They're nice toys. 22 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:44.099 You can show your grandmother. 23 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.519 Well, so this is this is absolute shock, isn't it, really? 24 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:47.939 terrible. 25 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:52.319 Tiresome, tiresome, tiresome. 26 00:01:52.379 --> 00:01:53.939 Is there anything that's wrong with this? 27 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:54.780 Let's... 28 00:01:55.260 --> 00:01:57.120 That is actually a good point to start. 29 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:58.260 What is wrong with this show? 30 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.799 I actually think it is the best story so far. 31 00:02:01.859 --> 00:02:03.180 In Doctor Who. 32 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:04.260 Yeah, it's the most fun. 33 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:09.360 At this point, but it's not just that it's fun, and all of that 34 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.060 stuff we talked about in last week's episode about the chemistry 35 00:02:12.060 --> 00:02:15.539 between Laura and Tom, and having Laura, Tom, and Douglas all 36 00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:16.199 together on the show. 37 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:18.419 That's one aspect of it. 38 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:21.840 And it's a hugely important aspect because Douglas has written the 39 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:22.319 thing. 40 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:25.979 All of the dialogue just sings. 41 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.099 There's just funny line after funny line after funny line. 42 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:30.599 So all of that element's there. 43 00:02:30.659 --> 00:02:34.020 But it's also really, really tightly plotted. 44 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.500 You know, there's nothing wasted, everything's paid off. 45 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:41.520 Douglas eventually, you know, when he starts writing the Dirk 46 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:42.180 Gently novels. 47 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:47.400 His books are like, his plots, rather, are like puzzle boxes, you 48 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:50.159 know, everything just sort of slots into place really well. 49 00:02:50.219 --> 00:02:51.840 And you can see that happening here. 50 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:55.080 It happens to a lesser extent in the pirate planet. 51 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:58.439 And then you've just got, we're in Paris, we're actually shooting 52 00:02:58.439 --> 00:02:59.159 overseas. 53 00:02:59.219 --> 00:03:02.580 There's stacks of outdoor stuff, stacks of stuff on film. 54 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:05.879 Just Tom and Lala running hand in hand through the streets of 55 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:06.360 Paris. 56 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:12.780 With Doggan. obviously. is just wonderful, fun to watch. 57 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:14.340 Dudley's on form. 58 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.020 It's well-direct... 59 00:03:16.020 --> 00:03:16.919 Listen, Dudley on four. 60 00:03:16.979 --> 00:03:17.759 He's terrific. 61 00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:19.080 And it is well directed. 62 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:21.719 Everyone felt like, you could feel that everyone was having a 63 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:22.379 great time. 64 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:25.439 It was a holiday for everybody, not just a holiday for the 65 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:25.680 doctor. 66 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:28.439 Well, the funny thing is do you want to know who it wasn't a 67 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:28.979 holiday for? 68 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:32.819 Because at the time, this was in, at the time, this was in 69 00:03:32.819 --> 00:03:37.319 production, Destiny of the Dialects was in pre-production. 70 00:03:37.379 --> 00:03:42.060 So in Paris, you had Tom Baker, Lala Ward, Tom Shadbond, who plays 71 00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:44.280 Duggan, you had Graham Williams, who had the director Michael 72 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:49.439 Hayes, and a small film crew, so one camera guy, 2 sound guys, I 73 00:03:49.439 --> 00:03:49.680 think. 74 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:55.919 So the noticeable name absent from there. is co-writer Douglas 75 00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:58.259 Adams, who was back in England minding the fort. 76 00:03:58.319 --> 00:03:58.979 For how long though? 77 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.460 Uh, I believe they were in Paris for about 5 days. 78 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:04.199 You know what really happened, don't you? 79 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:05.159 Kit with Kenny. 80 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:06.120 With Ken Greve. 81 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:10.199 Ken Greve came in to have a meeting with Graham Williams and 82 00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:12.360 Douglas Evans said, well, look, they've all gone to Paris. 83 00:04:12.419 --> 00:04:16.439 And Ken Green said, well, you know, you and I can only get so much 84 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:17.819 done without the producer here. 85 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:22.019 You know, we can't decide locations and props and what have you. 86 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:23.519 And he's like, oh, yeah. 87 00:04:23.579 --> 00:04:25.560 Oh, do you want to go for lunch? 88 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:26.579 Yeah, okay, let's go for lunch. 89 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:27.360 Where should we go for lunch? 90 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:28.079 How about Paris? 91 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:30.600 And so they got on the train. 92 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:32.819 And went to Paris. 93 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:37.319 And yeah, really became good mates and they stayed friends until 94 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:38.339 Douglas Adams died. 95 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:44.279 I got chucked out of the same place that Tom and Lala and the rest 96 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.620 of the crew were having, like, just a few hours afterwards and 97 00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:48.660 said, thrown out and said, where can we go? 98 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:50.160 There's a bar open in West Berlin. 99 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:53.160 They were in West Berlin and they got back to the London Studios 100 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:55.740 just a few hours before the other lot came in. 101 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:56.279 Yes. 102 00:04:56.339 --> 00:04:57.660 Not a lot happened that week. 103 00:04:57.779 --> 00:05:02.759 Graham Williams, like, saw them in Paris and was so annoyed. 104 00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:05.879 He's like, you're meant to be back in London working. just Douglas 105 00:05:05.879 --> 00:05:07.620 apparently said something lines off. 106 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:08.459 Well so are you. 107 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:11.879 They must have been down too well. 108 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:16.620 There must have been some kind of impending writing deadline in 109 00:05:16.620 --> 00:05:17.759 Douglas's head. 110 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:19.199 Go to those lengths. 111 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:22.199 But that's true, actually. was the great procrastinator. 112 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:24.839 But no, apparently Williams wrote this story with Douglas as 113 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:25.019 well. 114 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:26.040 Yeah, absolutely. 115 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.519 Of course, it was originally a David Fisher story called a Gamble 116 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:30.180 with Time. 117 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.500 Setting 1930s, Monte Carlo, setting Roger Moore. 118 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:36.839 It was set in Roger Moore and Tony Curtis. 119 00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:38.459 Because there was an episode of The Persuaders. 120 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:40.560 There's one going to be one of those ITC kind of shows where 121 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.680 there's a few little moments in Paris, but it was all going to be 122 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:47.399 a backlot and some studio sets and set in the 20s Paris, but they 123 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:48.420 realised when they got there. 124 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.639 Well, exactly, you know why it's all in Paris? 125 00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:51.899 Because John Nathan Turner? 126 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:56.339 The bean counter said it's actually slightly, it was £25 cheaper. 127 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.800 Do the whole thing there than do the show that they'd started? 128 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:01.139 £25. 129 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:06.180 I mean, part of part of the rewrite was that we could spend all 130 00:06:06.180 --> 00:06:09.060 this money making it look like 1930s or we can go to Paris and 131 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:12.959 just have it look fabulous and still be 1979 and we can still have 132 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:13.920 this time travel aspect. 133 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:16.500 The other thing was it was to be set in a casino and then Graham 134 00:06:16.500 --> 00:06:19.019 Williams went cold on the casino idea because he didn't like the 135 00:06:19.019 --> 00:06:20.519 idea of promoting gambling to children. 136 00:06:20.579 --> 00:06:24.420 So, you know, this is another example of Graham Williams being 137 00:06:24.420 --> 00:06:26.339 very plot driven, for instance. 138 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:30.180 I think that might have been a, you know, a 13th hour, I think 139 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:34.199 because Williams was very good at playing the producers. 140 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:36.180 And, you know, producers will always do it. 141 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.259 There's a story, you know, a posteriori from the events. 142 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:41.459 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 143 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:43.319 Because it was the Thursday. 144 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:45.959 It was the Thursday that it changed and the shooting was the 145 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:46.379 Monday. 146 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:51.540 So he had no qualms about promoting art forgery. children. 147 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:55.860 But to his to his great credit, David Fisher looked at the final 148 00:06:55.860 --> 00:06:58.800 script and said, look, this is wonderful, but please, I can't put 149 00:06:58.800 --> 00:06:59.339 my name on it. 150 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:00.000 It's not right. 151 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:01.800 I'll do you another... 152 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.819 Sorry, so he decreed from the pit and started developing the story 153 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:07.439 called the Fermasi, but we'll get to that. 154 00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:12.180 So yeah, we have a script written by Douglas Adams and Graham 155 00:07:12.180 --> 00:07:14.160 Williams credited to David Agnew. 156 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:16.680 And hasn't David Agnew got much better? 157 00:07:16.740 --> 00:07:19.139 He really has. since the invasion of time. 158 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:21.180 But yeah, it is wonderful. 159 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.000 I'd like to quote, if I may, from the discontinuity guide. 160 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:25.680 So Cornell Day and topping. 161 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:29.579 This is their bottom line for the city of death. 162 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.139 Witty, happy, plotted so hard that you can sing it. 163 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.399 This is as gorgeous as this old heart of mine, sung by the Isley 164 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:41.459 Brothers outside your window on a spring morning, while Emma 165 00:07:41.459 --> 00:07:44.699 Thompson gently massages your feet with aromatic oils. 166 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.139 That's Cornell. 167 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.379 But you know what? 168 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.139 I read that as a gay man, I go, you know what? 169 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:53.279 I'd be very happy with it. 170 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.980 Mainly because, you know, you get to chat with Emma Thompson. 171 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:56.579 I know. 172 00:07:56.639 --> 00:07:59.639 And of course, Emma Thompson was, I believe, a friend of Douglas 173 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:01.439 Adams as well. wasn't everyone? 174 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:01.980 Yes. 175 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.579 And as they finish off, just when you think it can't get any 176 00:08:05.579 --> 00:08:07.800 better, John Bloody Cleese turns up. 177 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:09.720 It's not just John Bodycleese, though. 178 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.000 It's Eleanor... 179 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.139 And as the Lions illustrates, it's vestigial function. 180 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:17.459 She's wonderful. 181 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:19.259 She's just terrific in it. 182 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:23.160 She's, you know, funnier than him and it is, it's such a 183 00:08:23.160 --> 00:08:23.759 surprise. 184 00:08:23.819 --> 00:08:27.240 It's such an incredible surprise little cameo. 185 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:32.039 And I feel so sorry that they didn't, they didn't go with John's 186 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:34.500 wish to be credited under a pseudonym. 187 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:38.639 Because John said, look, the whole joke is that I'm there and it's 188 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:39.240 a cameo. 189 00:08:39.299 --> 00:08:41.279 If you credit me as John Cleese in the radio times, people are 190 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:41.759 going to know. 191 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.220 Oh, so was he credited? 192 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.100 He was credited in the radio times and in the credits. 193 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.340 He asked to be credited as Kim Bread. 194 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:56.279 And I think maybe I think maybe, you know, if he if he'd gone for 195 00:08:56.279 --> 00:09:01.919 Jonathan Smith or something like that, which is a slight in joke. 196 00:09:01.980 --> 00:09:04.980 But I think maybe if you'd gone for that, David Reid would have 197 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:07.799 said, yeah, okay, but in the end, David Reid said, no, we're not 198 00:09:07.799 --> 00:09:09.360 calling you Kim Bread. just stupid. 199 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.399 He should have asked to be credited as Robin Bland, really. 200 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:13.320 Or David Agnew. 201 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:15.600 Or John Cheese. 202 00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:16.679 Don't she? 203 00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:17.220 Yes. 204 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:25.200 Even better What do you praise first is the question in this 205 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:25.559 story? 206 00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:27.659 Because coming back to the original question. 207 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:28.980 I can't criticise anything. 208 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.179 The elongated running around with absolutely nothing happening. 209 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:34.259 Who cares, though? 210 00:09:34.379 --> 00:09:35.399 Do you know what I mean? 211 00:09:35.460 --> 00:09:36.480 television's visual. 212 00:09:36.539 --> 00:09:40.080 That stuff creates the atmosphere that we pray. 213 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:45.299 I'm about to remove my Julian mask and have Nathan underneath and 214 00:09:45.299 --> 00:09:47.700 Nathan's about to move his mask and have me underneath. 215 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.100 Yeah, because I'm being so relentlessly positive. 216 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:56.639 So Julian Julian Glover is unbelievably good in it, like just... 217 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.200 As John Travolta in his Saturday night fever white disco suit with 218 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:01.740 a suit. 219 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:04.919 But even that idea, and maybe it's the 1st time Doctor Who's done 220 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:09.480 it, where you have hideous green tentacled monster with a lovely 221 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:10.620 crevant. 222 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:14.519 Like, I think that's just terrific and it's the sort of thing that 223 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.700 Doctor Who now does as, you know, routine. 224 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:21.600 But I think it's the 1st time we have it here. 225 00:10:21.659 --> 00:10:22.860 I think it's just terrific. 226 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:28.019 I love his silk dressing gown thing that he threatens Kerensky in 227 00:10:28.019 --> 00:10:29.820 a bit later on. 228 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.779 He's really funny and tremendously good. 229 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.820 Like one of the best villains we've ever had. 230 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:40.559 That 1st scene where Tom and Duggan and Romana come round to his 231 00:10:40.559 --> 00:10:43.259 place, and you know, Duggan tries to hit him with a chair and all 232 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:47.039 of that sort of thing, all of that dialogue is just spectacularly 233 00:10:47.039 --> 00:10:49.200 good, just unbelievably funny. 234 00:10:49.259 --> 00:10:53.519 I just wish that when they'd come home, but Glover had still been 235 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:57.840 in his mother's dressing gown, aping the performance of Peter Cook 236 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:03.779 as Sherlock Holmes in drag in the Paul Morrissey Hound of the 237 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:04.259 Baskerville. 238 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:07.620 Paul Morrissey was Warhol's filmmaker, but he went to England, did 239 00:11:07.620 --> 00:11:10.799 a spoof version of Hound of the Baskervilles with Peter Cook and 240 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:12.539 Dudley Moore as Watson. 241 00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:18.960 And Holmes is Jewish and terribly camp, in full makeup and hair 242 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.120 curlers, and his mother's dressing gun. 243 00:11:21.179 --> 00:11:27.419 And Watson is Welsh and Kenneth Williams, is Lord Baskerville. 244 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.940 And Irene Handel is one of the women with a dog that, an 245 00:11:32.940 --> 00:11:36.000 incontinent dog that, in her garden, It's one of the greatest 246 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:37.019 films of all time. 247 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.600 And possibly my pick of the week. 248 00:11:39.659 --> 00:11:44.759 But the humour, the humour that imbues that imbues this story as 249 00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:45.000 well. 250 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:48.480 I haven't I haven't seen that, but I'm looking forward to finding 251 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:49.500 it through Nathan's show notes. 252 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:52.559 But you've almost got, we've almost got, it's actually really hard 253 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:53.220 to track down. 254 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:59.220 We've almost got that level of humour of self lampoon in this, and 255 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:01.080 there are many reasons why this shouldn't work. 256 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:04.200 Because when you're having that much fun, you said it last week 257 00:12:04.200 --> 00:12:07.740 than when we were recording, that, Brendan, that everyone has fun 258 00:12:07.740 --> 00:12:08.580 except the audience. 259 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:09.960 And there's always a danger. 260 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:12.960 But I don't think we get that in this thing, do we? 261 00:12:13.019 --> 00:12:16.679 No, you know, the performance that's closest to caricature, I 262 00:12:16.679 --> 00:12:17.759 guess, is Kuransky. 263 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:20.100 And yet, that's, of course... 264 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:20.940 The accent? 265 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.039 Yeah, yeah. you know the story? 266 00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:25.019 It's David Graham. 267 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:26.700 It's Parker, from Thunderbird. 268 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:28.200 One of the original Daleks. 269 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:29.580 The original Dalek. 270 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:32.700 And that's his maternal grandparents' actual accent. 271 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:34.919 She said, no, they were Russian Jews and they actually started 272 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:35.580 just like that. 273 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:36.960 I'm not going to do that. 274 00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:37.860 It is an accent. 275 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:40.500 It is, you know, but it's not really a comedy actor. 276 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:44.759 But he is playing it as a character, as a Thunderbirds puppet 277 00:12:44.759 --> 00:12:46.440 hyperbole humour. 278 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:50.100 That works because the balance, I think it just ups the menace of 279 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:50.820 Scaroff. 280 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:52.080 Even Dugan too. 281 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:52.919 Do you know what I mean? 282 00:12:52.980 --> 00:12:56.580 Who's a bit of an idiot and, you know, his character thing is that 283 00:12:56.580 --> 00:13:00.120 he breaks glass and he punches people in the hand and stuff. 284 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:04.080 And, you know, he is desperately earnest and not very bright. 285 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:08.340 But again, that's allowed to work because he's the one who 286 00:13:08.340 --> 00:13:13.679 actually saves humanity by punching someone in the head, which is 287 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:15.840 precisely what the doctor's been telling him not to do. 288 00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:17.759 Notes came from Donald. 289 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:20.820 She was a Grey McDonald, who was the head of series, and he got, he 290 00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:23.639 was a no fun sign, a lot of things that he was arguing against. 291 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:26.580 But one of the notes that came down to Williams and Adams was 292 00:13:26.580 --> 00:13:27.600 there's too much hitting in this story. 293 00:13:27.659 --> 00:13:30.120 The chair leg, the whole thing was cut out. 294 00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:33.480 Tom was, you know, with Louis Khan's chair, but there was a thing 295 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:35.879 with Tom doing the same thing that was cut. 296 00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:37.500 And I have to agree with him. 297 00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:42.899 At the time, Duggan was a real lodestone of dulness in this for me 298 00:13:42.899 --> 00:13:43.679 and he still is. 299 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:44.940 This isn't perfect. 300 00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:49.139 I like him paired with Romana in the cafe in the evening after 301 00:13:49.139 --> 00:13:51.179 they escape from the Louvre. 302 00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:54.419 And they have that lovely chance and what's, do you know what I 303 00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:55.019 don't understand? 304 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:58.799 Yes, I. Yeah, of course, it always gives later a wonderful 305 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.559 opportunity, but it's kind of their easy punches, aren't they? 306 00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:02.460 Pun intended. 307 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:06.899 The violence in terms of Duggan. 308 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:10.740 I do kind of see where you're coming from because, of course 309 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:15.779 Duggan is presented as an heroic character, but I think what helps 310 00:14:15.779 --> 00:14:19.919 in a way is not only does the doctor comment on it. 311 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:26.940 But, for instance, in the scene where the Countess Scarlioni is 312 00:14:26.940 --> 00:14:29.460 trying to shoot them and Duggan hits her with a vase. 313 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.059 He's genuinely apologetic that he's hit a lady. 314 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:34.080 You know? 315 00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:35.639 So he does have some scruples. 316 00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:38.399 And of course, he's a hangover from when the story was set in the 317 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:38.820 30s. 318 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:43.860 He's bulldog Drummond in the 1930s, but just set in the 1970s. 319 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:45.659 So of course he doesn't quite fit in. 320 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:51.720 I think it's also a comment on shows like the professionals, for 321 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.779 instance, which was all brute force. and you've got the doctor and 322 00:14:54.779 --> 00:15:00.539 Romana saving the day by being hilariously witty and putting in... by 323 00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:01.500 being Steve and Mrs. Peel. 324 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.940 That 1st opening scene with them is a complete, it feels like an 325 00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:08.700 exact, you know, it's a bouquet. 326 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:10.019 It's Rig and McNee's. 327 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:10.799 And you know what? 328 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:13.259 When they're running away from the tower, you can just imagine 329 00:15:13.259 --> 00:15:16.080 that ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. ding, ding, ding, ding 330 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:16.740 ding, ding, ding. 331 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.299 And, you know, I may redub that. 332 00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:22.200 They're so amazingly smart. 333 00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:23.340 They're so brilliant. 334 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.500 Everything that they say is a Bormo. 335 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.039 Every comeback, you know, they outwit Duggan all the time in 336 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:32.700 conversation, you know, and they pride themselves on being smart. 337 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:35.940 It's the whole, you know, this season has a, you know, has a 338 00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:39.240 bouquet, and it's just them being immensely clever. 339 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:43.259 And so to have Duggan defeat the enemy and not them is just 340 00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:43.559 perfect. 341 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:50.700 I think it is, but why is Duggan punching people worse than canine 342 00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:51.240 zapping people? 343 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:56.220 A good point, because it's easier to copy because it comes from a 344 00:15:56.220 --> 00:16:00.360 human because, yeah, it's real low as, as opposed to fake. 345 00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:03.960 And because and there is the trouble with Tom this season. that 346 00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:05.700 we'll get to on precisely that point. 347 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:12.179 But Duncan doesn't fit is so much the opposite of the 2 leads that 348 00:16:12.179 --> 00:16:15.419 it ends up being, it's just a point of inertia. 349 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.980 I like his performance actually. 350 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:18.120 I really do. 351 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.440 I like Tom Chad. some charm. 352 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:20.340 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 353 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.220 And Tom Chadman certainly proven his worth on other things. 354 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.080 Well, yeah, like the mysterious planet. 355 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:27.480 Yeah, not that he needs to prove it to us. terrific. 356 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.759 All that day glow on that helmet. 357 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:32.100 I used to do divorce investigations. 358 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.460 They were never anything like this. wonderful. 359 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.860 I mentioned her earlier, Catherine Shell, fresh from space 1939. 360 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:45.659 And rather interestingly, you know, in space 1939, she was sort of 361 00:16:45.659 --> 00:16:47.159 an animal in human form. 362 00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:50.279 So awful. 363 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:52.740 But now she's married to an animal in human form instead. 364 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.840 Oh, yes, yes, yes. 365 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:59.039 She isn't wearing the giant sideburns that she... 366 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.860 Or the... 367 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.079 Or the herpes like eyebrows, doesn't she? 368 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:04.920 Awful. 369 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:08.279 But look, when we were when again, when we were 10, 12, it was 370 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:08.759 terrific. 371 00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:09.660 No, it wasn't. 372 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:13.019 I remember being crushed, crushed with disappointment when a 373 00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:16.079 season 2 episode of Space 1999 came on. 374 00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:17.700 Where's that lovely Sam? 375 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:18.480 Who's that terrible woman? 376 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:19.680 Ryan Blisser. 377 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.539 Where's Muffet? 378 00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:22.799 Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. 379 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:23.880 It's the wrong. 380 00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:24.960 That's the wrong. 381 00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:26.700 Professor Watson. was his name? 382 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:27.960 Victor, where's Victor? 383 00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:30.059 Because, you know, he looks like Muffet. 384 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:31.140 Oh I see. 385 00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:33.599 She's fantastic. 386 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:34.859 What do we think? 387 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:40.319 Like, I do remember people speculating about the nature of the 388 00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:44.339 count and countess's marriage, given that she seemed to be aware 389 00:17:44.339 --> 00:17:45.960 of. 390 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:47.700 Yes, what else have I been doing? 391 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:49.559 I think we know exactly what's going on. 392 00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:51.000 It's just terribly discreet. 393 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:55.319 They have a perfect French marriage, which means that, you know 394 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:58.799 she loves wealth and to be sitting on the arm of a handsome 395 00:17:58.799 --> 00:17:59.400 gentleman. 396 00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:02.460 He also likes the company of other handsome gentlemen, and that's 397 00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:04.140 terribly exotic. 398 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:06.240 She probably has Herman doing for her, actually. 399 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:07.140 Actually, yeah. 400 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:10.799 Herman actually works really well if you want to relive this in 401 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:14.640 the privacy of your own playroom, Brendan, with a Roger Delgado 402 00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:17.460 master figure and you just white up his hair. 403 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.619 He's, you know, perfect or something. 404 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.299 I do fancy Herman a bit. 405 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:22.019 It's the gloves. 406 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.980 But I will note that, you know, there could be a different reading 407 00:18:25.980 --> 00:18:29.640 to Count Scarlione's line about, you know, it hasn't taken much to 408 00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:30.180 fool you. 409 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.279 A few trinkets, a bit of nefarious excitement. 410 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:34.140 He didn't say that he was the provider. 411 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.559 He might have just been turning the other way. 412 00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:39.480 I thought she assumed he was gay. 413 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:41.099 I'm assuming. 414 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:42.960 Every man must have a hobby. 415 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.039 She gets very defensive when he's in the company of other men. 416 00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:48.779 He does, doesn't she? 417 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:50.880 Yes, there's a scene of, oh, she's not... 418 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.279 With the professor... 419 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.720 There's plenty in that for everyone, isn't it? 420 00:18:54.779 --> 00:18:58.079 So yeah, she assumes he likes some wizened old daddies. 421 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:00.480 I'm really surprised that they're all sets. 422 00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:03.539 The Louis Can's palazzo said, although we're in Paris. 423 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.039 Is a set? 424 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:08.460 Yes, yes, I assumed that they're just on some Paris filming one of 425 00:19:08.460 --> 00:19:09.960 their charmers, but no, no, it's all them. 426 00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:10.859 No, is it? 427 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:12.119 Paris, W-12. 428 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:13.500 Well, they would have only taken. 429 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:15.539 They would have only taken a film camera over. 430 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.299 And 3 cam show. videotape, yeah. 431 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.339 Copies, art copies. 432 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.859 This is something that Sandra goes on about. 433 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:26.220 The thing about art, there's something about scarcity and there's 434 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:27.539 something about authenticity. 435 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:28.980 Are you talking about Walter Benjamin? 436 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:30.900 art in the age of mechanical reproduction. 437 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:36.180 Yeah, well, Duchamps taking Azamut taking a fountain and saying 438 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:39.000 that this is now art because I've written Amut on the side of it. 439 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:41.700 It goes back to Rembrandt. 440 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.000 Rembrandt's students painted his, he was the 1st Warhol. 441 00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:46.799 He barely touched and stuff. 442 00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:48.779 He was just sort of lying pang. 443 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:52.380 Make that guy look out at the view. 444 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:52.920 Yeah, yeah. 445 00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:55.440 He was one of the first, he was the first entrepreneur. 446 00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:56.339 He had a factory. 447 00:19:56.400 --> 00:19:59.640 So you get all that stuff about computer paintings, you get all 448 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:01.500 that stuff about rarity and scarcity. 449 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:05.039 And this thing, which I thought was really terrible as a kid and 450 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:08.700 now I think it's spectacular, where the only surviving Mona Lisa 451 00:20:08.700 --> 00:20:12.539 has the words, this is a fake, written in fell tip under the 452 00:20:12.539 --> 00:20:12.900 paint. 453 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.940 I just think it's spectacularly gray. 454 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.359 Has anyone heard of Vincent, so Perugia? 455 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:20.640 No one, not even his mother has heard. 456 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:22.440 Vincenzo Carusia. 457 00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:27.660 He stole the Monalisa in 1911, by sticking it under his smock, and 458 00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:28.980 he's had it for two weeks. 459 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.140 It is a very pretty painting. 460 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.819 It is a very pretty painting. 461 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:34.559 Hope it wasn't under a smock for 2 weeks. 462 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.720 And it wasn't really, stop it. 463 00:20:36.779 --> 00:20:37.980 It wasn't really valued. 464 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.380 It was one of the huge hordes. 465 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.680 Lots of stuff that brought back my Napoleon, the first Napoleon. 466 00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:43.980 Right. 467 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.500 With his with his his old nick and spree. 468 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:50.460 But it wasn't really, people, for those 2 weeks in Paris, 1911, was 469 00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:54.420 queueing up to look at the blank spot on the wall, apparently. 470 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.859 They really were. 471 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.140 That, I think, is what Adams is really getting right here. 472 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:02.039 And there's some really, really clever meta going on about what 473 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:05.279 Doctor Who is and what television is and what art is and are we 474 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:05.880 making art? 475 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:07.259 Well, I think we actually are. 476 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:11.819 You kids are sitting watching this and your family, folk at home 477 00:21:11.819 --> 00:21:15.240 and you're thinking this is a lovely romp, or this is another ITC 478 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.960 Persuaders Saints spy show over, or this is a lovely thing with 479 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:21.539 you know, some BBC character actors whom you've all enjoyed. 480 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.740 But we're actually talking about a whole lot of things on what 481 00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:31.859 television is and what, art is and what fun is, it's perfectly 482 00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:36.180 spelt out, what this season is doing, and it dovetails beautifully 483 00:21:36.180 --> 00:21:40.019 I should say, with the development of the character of Romana, and 484 00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:44.819 you adroitly pointed out last episode that this is where Romana 485 00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:46.799 discovers her humanity. 486 00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:51.539 In this one, she discovers her humanity in the social sense or in 487 00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:54.059 the sense of how she responds to a world. 488 00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:57.839 When she says, most tellingly, well, computers can draw. 489 00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:58.619 Yeah. 490 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:03.299 She actually gets the whole, the whole point of this story is, is 491 00:22:03.299 --> 00:22:08.700 the 2nd iteration of where we're going to end up with Shada. 492 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:13.859 It's the most socialist series, not communistic socialist series 493 00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:17.220 that Doctor Who has ever done, because it's smarty pants 494 00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:18.000 socialism. 495 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:21.599 It is, everyone has the right to be the best they can possibly be 496 00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:24.900 but on their own individual merit in their own individual terms. 497 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:31.740 It is not about perceived or procured wealth from outside. 498 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:33.000 It is not about how much you can get. 499 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.980 It is not about what you can acquire. 500 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.740 It's not about how many iterations of the same thing you can get. 501 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:39.960 They're always end up being the baddies. 502 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.099 We'll see it with a draster. 503 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:41.700 We'll see it. 504 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.140 We've seen it with Davros. 505 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.660 And we're going to see it further along the line. 506 00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:47.519 All the way through the season. 507 00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:51.539 This is the story where Romano very gently is introduced to what 508 00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:56.039 it is to be an individual in a culture where individualism is 509 00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:57.660 prominent, and that is France. 510 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:01.140 France has booted all of this right from the revolution. 511 00:23:01.259 --> 00:23:02.700 Did you want to throw that in now? 512 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:04.740 I just wanted to hear your Vicki... 513 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:05.759 Revolution? 514 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:06.119 Thank you. 515 00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:10.920 This story is, as you say, it's a love letter to all those 516 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:11.220 things. 517 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.980 It's a love letter to artist, it's a love letter to the personal 518 00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:18.480 response of art, and it's an indictment of A version of the 519 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:19.799 collector mentality. 520 00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:24.599 Now, we're fans, you as listeners are probably fans as well. 521 00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:29.579 And I imagine we all have a collection to some degree or another. 522 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:34.319 Now, what this script is talking about, it's loving the people who 523 00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:38.099 collect because the objects mean something to them. 524 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:39.660 Now, when I was living in the UK. 525 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:41.700 I snapped up every doctor who action figure I could. 526 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.240 And then it came time when I was looking at some of them and I was 527 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:48.539 thinking, mostly the new series one, so, you know, things like the 528 00:23:48.539 --> 00:23:52.440 scarecrows from human nature, family of blood and the, and the 529 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:54.480 Slovine and space pig. 530 00:23:54.539 --> 00:23:57.839 I kind of looked at them and went, I've got all these, but I've 531 00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:02.039 also got the Fender, and I've got the Vok, and I've got the sea 532 00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:02.640 devil. 533 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:05.700 And those last three, they're the ones I have a personal response 534 00:24:05.700 --> 00:24:08.039 to, and I'm happy when I see them on the shelf. 535 00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:10.140 The others, it's kind of like, it's nice to have them. 536 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.160 They're very well put together and I don't blame anyone for whom 537 00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:15.960 you know, that's your 1st monster and you love that monster. 538 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:19.259 Are you saying you weren't collecting 2 action figures for the 539 00:24:19.259 --> 00:24:22.019 individuation of your own wealth and power in the world? 540 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.740 He was doing it so that he could finance time travel experience. 541 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:26.400 It's okay. 542 00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:27.420 I could come down. 543 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:28.619 But that's the thing down the line. 544 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:32.220 Yeah, there's a difference between that and doing it just for the 545 00:24:32.220 --> 00:24:34.619 sake of putting yourself up in society. 546 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.779 Don't think anyone buys Doctor Who action figures to give 547 00:24:36.779 --> 00:24:38.220 themselves prominence in culture. 548 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:39.059 No, exactly. 549 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:41.400 So I ended up getting rid of the ones that didn't give me that 550 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:42.480 free song. 551 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:43.980 Oh my god, I can't believe I own this. 552 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:48.059 And I use that to buy more of the classic ones. 553 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:55.259 We have we have knowledge before we have wealth, and Romana and 554 00:24:55.259 --> 00:24:58.920 the doctor will always be infinitely more wealthy than anyone they 555 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.980 come across, even though they only ever have a few song teams in 556 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:05.819 their pockets because they have the wealth of themselves and their 557 00:25:05.819 --> 00:25:09.059 experience and their and their wit enough money to buy Weirbase. 558 00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:11.160 They do see, I don't think they even pay. 559 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:12.359 Did you notice the car? 560 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.960 In the 1st trip, the thugs have to pay for the classes of water. 561 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:17.700 In France, you still have to pay for water. 562 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:21.420 But it just struck me that we're talking about copies of the Mona 563 00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:24.720 Lisa being produced, but of course there is a moment in the cafe 564 00:25:24.720 --> 00:25:29.220 where the TV is showing a picture of the Mona Lisa and presumably 565 00:25:29.220 --> 00:25:31.319 TVs all over Paris are as well. 566 00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:35.460 And so, you know, everyone has a little copy of the Mona Lisa in 567 00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:36.720 their home at that one moment. 568 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:42.000 And it is that thing where Scarlioni would think that the doctor 569 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:46.440 was being naive when he talked about what the painting looks 570 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:46.740 like. 571 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:51.539 The doctor's line, it's a very pretty painting, which is why do 572 00:25:51.539 --> 00:25:52.680 people want to steal the Mona Lisa? 573 00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:53.640 It's a very pretty painting. 574 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:54.900 Of course, that's not the reason. 575 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:57.420 You know, it's not because it's a very pretty painting. 576 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:01.259 It's because it's unique and because it has this provenance 577 00:26:01.259 --> 00:26:02.640 because it's fetishized. 578 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:06.059 Yeah, fetishising is it's the perfecting of the object, as Freud 579 00:26:06.059 --> 00:26:07.680 says, it's the love object. 580 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:12.119 It's having to possess that which is no longer possessible as is 581 00:26:12.119 --> 00:26:13.559 the love of the parent. 582 00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:16.980 So, you know, they want to own it because they, and possessing 583 00:26:16.980 --> 00:26:17.160 it. 584 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:19.980 It's the void that can never be filled. 585 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:23.579 They keep needing to acquire. some really high concept stuff in 586 00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:24.299 this. 587 00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:26.160 But it's all coming down. 588 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:29.099 It's actually coming down to, you could see it as an ecological 589 00:26:29.099 --> 00:26:29.400 thing. 590 00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:34.019 This season is about possessions and why you really want them. 591 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.000 Romana and the doctor don't really have very much. 592 00:26:36.059 --> 00:26:37.559 Yeah, they have themselves. 593 00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:41.339 And there is nothing, there is nothing intrinsically bad about 594 00:26:41.339 --> 00:26:42.240 wanting possessions. 595 00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:43.440 And I think that's why... 596 00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:46.500 I think the season actually says there is. that's exactly what 597 00:26:46.500 --> 00:26:47.339 this story is about. 598 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:50.460 But it is your purpose in wanting them. 599 00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:54.119 Yeah, I don't think Dr. I think honestly, yeah, 4 parts about 600 00:26:54.119 --> 00:26:57.779 copying Dr. Correction figures would probably not have had the 601 00:26:57.779 --> 00:26:58.200 same. 602 00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:00.599 Although they didn't have them then, did they? 603 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:01.500 Only Dennis Fisher. 604 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:06.000 To give you an example of something recent, Richard, you were 605 00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.880 having a look at the photos before of my little Nintendo things 606 00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:10.319 that you can scan into the system. 607 00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:12.299 They're called Amibos. 608 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.700 They came out about a year ago and there was a shortage of them. 609 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:17.519 Nintendo weren't expecting such huge demand, which meant people 610 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:20.160 were walking into Kmart and Target, and soon as stock were coming 611 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.160 in, just arm across the shelf, all into their basket, buying them 612 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:24.779 for 17 a pop and selling them for 50. 613 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.279 And that is exactly what Scarlione's doing here. 614 00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:30.960 Of course, you know, he's doing it with something slightly more 615 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.400 important than Nintendo figures. 616 00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:34.859 He's doing it with Gutenberg Bibles. right. 617 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.559 But do we do that next week as well? 618 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:42.059 isn't creature from the pit all about economy and scare. 619 00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:43.680 Even more so, yes. 620 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.640 Yes. 621 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:47.519 And it gets hammered home next season. 622 00:27:47.579 --> 00:27:51.359 There'll be lots of metallic references only the first. 623 00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:52.799 Yeah, but that's the thing. 624 00:27:52.859 --> 00:27:58.920 In a way, Scarlioni, Scaroff, is the oldest human who ever lived 625 00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:02.519 because he's been human in all these different points in history 626 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.259 but he just doesn't get it. 627 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:06.119 There's no evolution there, is there? 628 00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:06.539 Exactly. 629 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:09.180 He may live for a long time, but he doesn't mutate. 630 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:09.839 He doesn't change. 631 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:14.039 Do you know we haven't mentioned perhaps the most important guest 632 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:15.599 role in the entire story? 633 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:18.900 It's Packer. 634 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.160 Packer is back. 635 00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:22.440 Peter Halliday. holiday. 636 00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:24.900 It's one of the guards, that's right. 637 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.180 Yeah, he's the guard for Captain Tancredi. 638 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:29.759 And that is that... 639 00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:33.960 He's also one of the Jokeroth voices in the opening credits. 640 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:36.839 The other one, the other one, Tom Chapman, yeah. 641 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:40.019 Peter Halliday was the go-to guy to be voices in the 60s, wasn't 642 00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:40.200 he? 643 00:28:40.259 --> 00:28:43.980 He was the Nicholas Briggs of the 1960s. 644 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:44.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 645 00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:49.019 It's just small part, you know, like Packer is in it for 8 646 00:28:49.019 --> 00:28:49.559 episodes. 647 00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:51.960 He's got a huge amount to do. 648 00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:56.460 Here, Peter Halliday is just at the end of, what, episode 3 in the 649 00:28:56.460 --> 00:28:57.480 beginning of episode four? 650 00:28:57.539 --> 00:28:58.200 Yes. 651 00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:59.880 And he's really terrific. 652 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.079 He's just terribly good. 653 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:03.779 He doesn't steal a scene away from Tom, but he's really 654 00:29:03.779 --> 00:29:05.400 tremendously charming. 655 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:08.880 And like something changes. 656 00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:12.900 That cliffhanger isn't the doctor so much in peril as, oh my god 657 00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:15.660 something very different is going on from what we think. 658 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.660 It's not just an alien trying to steal the Mona Lisa. 659 00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:21.180 Something much, much more complex is going on. 660 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:22.740 It's a really good moment. 661 00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:26.640 Yeah, and I love how 45 years later. 662 00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:29.940 We still haven't met Leonardo da Vinci on screen. 663 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.259 You know, he's never should. 664 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:33.420 He's mentioned in Mask of Man Dragara. 665 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.240 We think we're going to meet him here and we don't. 666 00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:38.759 I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned in the new series. 667 00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:42.359 But it's such a Doctor Who and Douglas Adams thing to do, and it 668 00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:44.220 kind of comes back to what you were saying, Richard. 669 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.259 You know, people might have been sitting there going, oh, we're 670 00:29:46.259 --> 00:29:47.460 going to meet Leonardo da Vinci. 671 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:51.059 No, instead we're going to have a very, very funny and, but at the 672 00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:54.960 same time, very tense and scary bit with just 3 actors sitting in 673 00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:55.200 a room. 674 00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:00.839 This series is, I think, what Graham Williams always wanted to do 675 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:02.099 and it just took him a while to get there. 676 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:07.500 He's trying to make Doctor Who a big sci-fi blockbuster with great 677 00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:09.720 special effects in his 1st year and realised he couldn't do that. 678 00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:11.940 And then he tried to do a story arc and that sort of collapsed in 679 00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:12.779 all itself at the end. 680 00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:16.980 So he's doing a series of self-contained adventures, but linked by 681 00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:17.940 a common theme. 682 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:21.420 And I think, you know, recognising that his strengths are going to 683 00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:25.500 lie in the quality of the writing and, you know, just getting 684 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:29.460 compelling, if not good actors, you know, to say the lines. 685 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:32.460 And if you can manage to make the sense beautiful, which 686 00:30:32.460 --> 00:30:35.940 unfortunately in season 17, you almost never can. 687 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.380 Just so much the better. 688 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.039 But yeah, I think, you know, this is where that whole approach 689 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:42.779 just pays off in spades. 690 00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:47.339 Now, hopefully he's not going to try and take off on warp drive 691 00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:50.940 but here's a little obelisk we got hovering over our heads. 692 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.759 It's a it's a double-inverted optimism, yeah. 693 00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:55.440 So it's just an octahedon. 694 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:56.279 Yeah, yeah. 695 00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.720 I was never any good at geometry. 696 00:30:57.779 --> 00:31:01.440 She is, though, because she gets the 2.73 by 6 metres. 697 00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:03.839 That is such a funny line, though, what Scarlia. 698 00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:05.579 You know where that's from, don't you? 699 00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:10.500 The 1905 Arthur Conan Doyle, um, Shock Holmes story. 700 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.900 I keep from wanting to say Northhanger Abbey. 701 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:14.099 Do you remember the name of the story? 702 00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:17.819 Anyway, Holmes works it out by there's something. 703 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.779 It's very Po, really, but the false room by noticing the inside 704 00:31:21.779 --> 00:31:22.319 dimensions. 705 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:23.640 Oh, yeah. 706 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:26.519 And she's walking up and down with the thing, saying the, like 707 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:28.440 measuring the thing in metres and stuff. 708 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:31.859 I actually really love how she's off investigating things while 709 00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:34.440 the doctor is, you know, being a dick. 710 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.019 She's carrying explosives. 711 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:38.160 You want to see what Ramana is to it? 712 00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:38.880 Looks terribly interesting. 713 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:41.039 You know, she's quick to blow the brick ball. now. 714 00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:42.119 Yeah, yeah. 715 00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:46.799 Since that's why she's dressed as a centrinian student in this. 716 00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:48.720 Because she's a naughty girl. 717 00:31:48.779 --> 00:31:49.740 She's a bakoonist. 718 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:51.359 She just wants to blow up the establishment. 719 00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:54.480 I do love how she sort of said in later interviews. 720 00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:57.119 You know, people wrote in and said, oh, you're dressing as a 721 00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:57.599 schoolgirl. 722 00:31:57.660 --> 00:32:00.420 I never thought of that and I don't see why anyone should think of 723 00:32:00.420 --> 00:32:01.500 schoolgirls in that way. 724 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:02.700 Thank you, gentlemen. 725 00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:04.079 She just cuts that down. 726 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:06.059 You know why she's not right to. 727 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:09.900 At the time, she did it because they wanted her, they had, you 728 00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:10.380 know the story? 729 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:14.220 The costume that they had been designed for her was a silver 730 00:32:14.220 --> 00:32:15.839 lyrics one piece catsuit. 731 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.400 Haven't we been here before, perhaps? 732 00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:19.380 Yeah, it's mind robbery again. 733 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.299 Well, they were still designing for Mary, weren't they? 734 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:22.740 Well, they were designing for Zoe. 735 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.119 It's not going to wear it. 736 00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:27.240 They were designing for Wendy Padbury in 1968. 737 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.440 But anyway, that was the concept and Lana said, no, I hated 738 00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:31.799 school. 739 00:32:31.859 --> 00:32:33.059 Bren has already pointed it out. 740 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.299 Let's make what we dislike, we own. 741 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:38.519 Let's turn it around and love it. 742 00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:40.200 The feminist movement had already brought this in. 743 00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:44.039 What most oppresses you, possess it, and make it your own. 744 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.000 So is her outfit in leisure heights about how much she hated her 745 00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:48.720 time in the Navy? 746 00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:50.160 Absolutely. 747 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:54.119 Or as a Pinocchio doll or whatever it was that she was forced to 748 00:32:54.119 --> 00:32:54.359 be. 749 00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:55.740 It's a perfect costume. 750 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:57.180 We'll see you coming out. 751 00:32:57.240 --> 00:32:57.900 It's perfect. 752 00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.039 Yeah, nice. 753 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.359 And she really wears it. 754 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:03.359 Well, and there's some really clever moments where you can see the 755 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:05.519 3 of them working together where she's being a horribly clever 756 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:07.619 school girl and doing precocious things and, oh, look, there's 757 00:33:07.619 --> 00:33:11.099 just opened the Chinese puzzle box because she told me not to. 758 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:12.599 Yeah. 759 00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:13.920 Lots of things through this. 760 00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:15.059 She's in Paris. 761 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:15.839 It's Madeline. 762 00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:16.559 Yeah. 763 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.279 Just draw me like one of your French girls. 764 00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:22.140 She says. 765 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.319 Anyway, sorry to keep you waiting, Tom, but we were talking about 766 00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:25.859 Lala. 767 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.019 So here we are at the City of Death, the much lauded city of 768 00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:31.319 death. 769 00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:36.059 Or, as David Fisher likes to call it, 35% of the gamble with 770 00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:36.299 time. 771 00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:40.019 Look, there's no denying that this is a great script, great 772 00:33:40.019 --> 00:33:42.180 performances, there's certainly a panache to it. 773 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:46.319 Scareth dies at the end, but does that automatically kill all of 774 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:47.579 his other versions through time? 775 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.680 Are they still working to the same end? 776 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:52.200 And how many times can Scarothon be knocked out? 777 00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:55.019 I guess you'll want my head on a platter for actually suggesting 778 00:33:55.019 --> 00:33:57.480 that this may not be the most perfect story of all time? 779 00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:01.380 I guess I should jump into this giant hole that just opened up in 780 00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:02.039 the ground next to me. 781 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:05.279 We call it the... 782 00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:09.360 They seem to be a gestalt of one entity though, don't they? 783 00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:12.000 There is an explanation, I can't remember what it is in the 784 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:12.599 novelisation. 785 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.480 So there's a recent novelisation by... 786 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:16.559 The lovely Gareth? 787 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:17.099 No. 788 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.659 No, James Gotts. 789 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:19.619 No, I tried it. 790 00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:20.039 Yeah, yeah. 791 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:21.119 This is why I haven't bought it, yes. 792 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:22.139 Yeah, it's really good. 793 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.760 It is... 794 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.219 No, no, it is really good. 795 00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:28.440 I was a little bit disappointed because I did like the Shada 796 00:34:28.440 --> 00:34:30.420 novelisation will talk more about that later. 797 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:35.219 And I thought, oh, you know, I didn't know who James Goth was, to 798 00:34:35.219 --> 00:34:35.460 be honest. 799 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:40.079 For listeners of a similar event, who aren't quite sure who James 800 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:42.480 Goss is and his Doctor Who connections, what did you call me? 801 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.860 Sillabent. 802 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.880 There Yeah, there you go. 803 00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:52.380 James Goss produced Scream of the Shelter. 804 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:53.280 He did too. 805 00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:57.480 He also produced the invasion animations for episodes one and 806 00:34:57.480 --> 00:34:57.840 four. 807 00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:01.380 He's done lots of Doctor King since then and novels and books and 808 00:35:01.380 --> 00:35:02.340 comics and what have you. 809 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:07.019 And presently he is, I believe, one of the producers on Big 810 00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:09.840 Finish's Dark Shadows Range, which has won several awards. 811 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.320 So, you know, he's got he does have his chops, but you're right in 812 00:35:13.320 --> 00:35:16.500 that a lot of people, fans of the older series, may not know who 813 00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:16.920 he is. 814 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:19.380 And there was this incredibly passionate fan. 815 00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:23.280 You know, there was this association between season 17 and Gareth 816 00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:26.280 Roberts because of things like the romance of crime and the well 817 00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.679 mannered war and those various missing adventures he set during 818 00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:29.219 that period. 819 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:34.019 He's got an essay called Tom II, I think, in license denied, which 820 00:35:34.019 --> 00:35:36.900 is this sort of very full-throated defence of the Williams era. 821 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:38.340 Thank you for bringing that up. 822 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:41.760 There's a great essay in that one, which came out years ago, dear 823 00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:44.340 listener, um, of just a collection of essays that Paul Cornell 824 00:35:44.340 --> 00:35:48.360 cobbled together, of how good, when there was the revival of 825 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:51.719 Infandom of Love for the William series, and it was, there's an 826 00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.179 essay in it why we should love the Naim one. 827 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:54.780 Do remember that? 828 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:55.739 No, I say. 829 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:57.480 Anyway, we'll get to that further down. 830 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.619 Yeah, so I had just wanted him to do it. 831 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:06.360 James Goss's novelisation is really terribly, terribly good 832 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:06.719 though. 833 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.940 Is it add new things? 834 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.019 Yes, yeah. 835 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:12.480 So it is a very, very faithful novelisation. 836 00:36:12.539 --> 00:36:16.500 It doesn't always use the versions of the script or the line 837 00:36:16.500 --> 00:36:19.619 readings that made their way into the transmitted version. 838 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.280 Sometimes he'll pick a different reading, which I think is 839 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:23.699 interesting. 840 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:27.960 You know, it adds something I can, if I want to relive a scene, any 841 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.780 scene at all in City of Death, I can just close my eyes for a few 842 00:36:30.780 --> 00:36:32.820 minutes and, you know, I've got to memorise. 843 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:34.440 That adds something new. 844 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:40.860 He adds stuff about what it's like for Scaroff to experience his 845 00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:43.019 life now that he's been splitting time. 846 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:46.380 And in fact, the cliffhanger to episode one, he has to give a 847 00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:48.059 reason for it because it's a novel. 848 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:50.460 He can't just have the character go down and tear his face off. 849 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:52.980 Yes. 24 minutes into the episode. 850 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:55.860 It's about time something scary happened. 851 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:01.800 So he has, he has Scarlet only not fully aware that he's an 852 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:02.400 alien. 853 00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:06.059 And so his face is itching and it's almost like he's as surprised 854 00:37:06.059 --> 00:37:09.000 as we are to see the sort of green thing underneath. 855 00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:10.980 And so all that's really good. 856 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:17.340 And he adds a hilarious extra depth to the John Clayson Eleanor 857 00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:20.820 Bronx characters who don't just appear in a cameo. 858 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:22.920 It's terrific. 859 00:37:22.980 --> 00:37:23.820 It really is great. 860 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:25.739 My thought. 861 00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:27.719 Because, yeah, I never really thought about what happened to his 862 00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:32.280 part, Splinters, until, until this moment, and I think it's the 863 00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.980 it's the argument we get in the new series. in that they've 864 00:37:34.980 --> 00:37:38.639 already lived and died. to lead up to this moment. 865 00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:43.500 You know, they're not reacting to anything that happens any 866 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:48.059 differently because as the doctor says, it always happened, it 867 00:37:48.059 --> 00:37:50.820 always has to happen, you know, you can't do it, you can't change 868 00:37:50.820 --> 00:37:51.059 it. 869 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:53.699 Now, obviously, he can change it, otherwise the doctor wouldn't 870 00:37:53.699 --> 00:37:54.179 try to stop him. 871 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:57.480 But the doctor has always stopped him, and those past incarnations 872 00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:59.639 have always worked towards essentially nothing. 873 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.820 You don't actually have to be quite as tummy whiny as that, though 874 00:38:02.820 --> 00:38:03.119 do you? 875 00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:06.480 I mean, the only one of the incarnations, the one in 1979. 876 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.920 He's the only one with technology available to him to create the 877 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:13.500 time machine, and that's what he says, you know, to have this 878 00:38:13.500 --> 00:38:17.579 limited level of technology available to me now in 1979. 879 00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:20.460 You know, all my other selves have worked. and stuff. 880 00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.719 So once he's gone, there's no one far enough in the future to have 881 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:26.460 access to time travel technology. 882 00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.739 Yeah, so they can't do anything. 883 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.360 Maybe they don't know what's happened. 884 00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:32.099 He's just disappeared? 885 00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:34.019 They can't communicate with the splinters? 886 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.360 Yeah, yeah, he's the most future. 887 00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:39.780 Yeah, he's the futurist one, which is why he's the one who has the 888 00:38:39.780 --> 00:38:40.739 technology. 889 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:43.559 Although you do get the one in the Norman helmet, which is made 890 00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:44.400 out of tinfoil. 891 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:47.400 And as a kid, I always thought he was in the future because he was 892 00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:48.599 covered in pinfoil. 893 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:50.460 And that's the thing, as a child. 894 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:54.360 I'm like, why is the one in 1979 doing all the technical stuff? 895 00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:55.739 This guy's wearing tinfoil. 896 00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:56.579 He must be from the future. 897 00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:58.320 Didn't you think that wasn't like that? 898 00:38:58.380 --> 00:38:59.639 Exactly. 899 00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:02.159 Didn't you think that if he's got a holographic projector that's 900 00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:02.940 as clever as that? 901 00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.380 He'd be the richest man on earth. 902 00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:06.300 Steve Jobs didn't have that inset. 903 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:07.139 Yeah, that's true. 904 00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:08.519 Why doesn't he need the paintings? 905 00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:13.199 He's a narrow focussed to continue the projector metaphor, narrow 906 00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:14.460 focussed, naughty person. 907 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:15.239 Isn't he? 908 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:19.019 Like all greedy collectors that can only see through the camera 909 00:39:19.019 --> 00:39:21.360 obscure of their own little prim prick of line. 910 00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:25.260 See, now I'm just envisioning comic book guys, the collector in 911 00:39:25.260 --> 00:39:28.679 that Simpsons Halloween episode, where he kidnaps Lucy Lawless, so 912 00:39:28.679 --> 00:39:31.980 he can put her between Doctor Who and Yasmin Bleef. 913 00:39:32.460 --> 00:39:34.920 I don't know who any of those are. 914 00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:35.880 I have no idea either. 915 00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:37.380 I'm not a young person. 916 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:55.860 Well, do, listener, as we run away hand in hand from the Eiffel 917 00:39:55.860 --> 00:39:56.340 Tower. 918 00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:57.000 I'm flying. 919 00:39:57.059 --> 00:39:57.420 What about you? 920 00:39:57.539 --> 00:39:59.820 Don't be ostentatious. 921 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:02.460 We'll see you next week on the planet. 922 00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:04.860 Chloris, I hope you've eaten your greens. 923 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:09.119 Don't forget, before then, you can find us at bondfinger.com, where 924 00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:12.840 we have commentaries for 1st 5 Connery Bond films. 925 00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:17.039 You can also find that as Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and 926 00:40:17.039 --> 00:40:18.300 Bondfinger cast on Twitter. 927 00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:23.760 Please follow us on Facebook and iTunes at Flightthrough Entirety 928 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:27.659 Flightthrough Entirety.com and FTE podcast on Twitter. 929 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.139 And if you could retweet or reshare this podcast, we would love 930 00:40:31.139 --> 00:40:31.559 that. 931 00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:32.760 So please do so. 932 00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:33.480 Thank you very much. 933 00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:38.519 Until next time, I'm just going to go watch City of Death again 934 00:40:38.519 --> 00:40:41.760 because apparently as a child, I would watch it 3 times a week, and 935 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.559 that VHS is still holding up. 936 00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:44.460 Did you? 937 00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:45.179 I did. 938 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:47.880 According to one of my, according to my cousin who babysit me, I 939 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:49.619 drove her insane. 940 00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:53.219 Until next week, thank you very much for listening and good 941 00:40:53.219 --> 00:40:53.460 night. 942 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.179 Good night. 943 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:54.719 Good night. 944 00:40:56.099 --> 00:41:00.119 That was Fight through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan 945 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:01.679 Jones and Richard Stone. 946 00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:07.139 This episode, croft with disappointment, was recorded on the 6th 947 00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:08.519 of December, 2015. 948 00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:12.119 The next episode will be released on January 31st. 949 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.400 I had enough. 950 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.139 Yep, that living in the beginning, yeah. 951 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:17.039 Yep, this is it. 952 00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:30.900 Running through France.