WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:27:19 1 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:36.659 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who doesn't have any eyebrows. 2 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:37.380 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:42.659 I'm Nathan, and I'm a curiously redundant vestige of my previous use as Bouillabaise. 4 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:44.820 Yum, yum. 5 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.659 And yum, yum, indeed, as we head to the cafes of Paris. 6 00:00:48.780 --> 00:00:50.579 It's death. 7 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:05.579 Hooray, it's Grey Perrie. 8 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:10.019 Possibly more accurately called City that has some death in it. 9 00:01:10.620 --> 00:01:12.480 It was raining. 10 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:16.739 Well, just before you start off, Nathan, because I may forget to mention this. 11 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:22.500 Some of you out there may know if you follow me on Facebook that I have an album called Toys on Tour. 12 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:36.719 I've recently uploaded some photos I took ages ago where I took a Tom Baker toy to Paris, and I found the gallery where the Tannis is parked and I found the door to Scaroth's Chateau. 13 00:01:36.780 --> 00:01:41.819 So yeah, expect some toys on tour shots in Paris accompanying this podcast. 14 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:43.079 They're nice toys. 15 00:01:43.140 --> 00:01:44.099 You can show your grandmother. 16 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.519 Well, so this is this is absolute shock, isn't it, really? 17 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:47.939 terrible. 18 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:52.319 Tiresome, tiresome, tiresome. 19 00:01:52.379 --> 00:01:53.939 Is there anything that's wrong with this? 20 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:54.780 Let's... 21 00:01:55.260 --> 00:01:57.120 That is actually a good point to start. 22 00:01:57.239 --> 00:01:58.260 What is wrong with this show? 23 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:01.799 I actually think it is the best story so far. 24 00:02:01.859 --> 00:02:03.180 In Doctor Who. 25 00:02:03.239 --> 00:02:04.260 Yeah, it's the most fun. 26 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:16.199 At this point, but it's not just that it's fun, and all of that stuff we talked about in last week's episode about the chemistry between Laura and Tom, and having Laura, Tom, and Douglas all together on the show. 27 00:02:16.259 --> 00:02:18.419 That's one aspect of it. 28 00:02:18.479 --> 00:02:22.319 And it's a hugely important aspect because Douglas has written the thing. 29 00:02:22.379 --> 00:02:25.979 All of the dialogue just sings. 30 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.099 There's just funny line after funny line after funny line. 31 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:30.599 So all of that element's there. 32 00:02:30.659 --> 00:02:34.020 But it's also really, really tightly plotted. 33 00:02:34.080 --> 00:02:37.500 You know, there's nothing wasted, everything's paid off. 34 00:02:37.560 --> 00:02:42.180 Douglas eventually, you know, when he starts writing the Dirk Gently novels. 35 00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:50.159 His books are like, his plots, rather, are like puzzle boxes, you know, everything just sort of slots into place really well. 36 00:02:50.219 --> 00:02:51.840 And you can see that happening here. 37 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:55.080 It happens to a lesser extent in the pirate planet. 38 00:02:55.139 --> 00:02:59.159 And then you've just got, we're in Paris, we're actually shooting overseas. 39 00:02:59.219 --> 00:03:02.580 There's stacks of outdoor stuff, stacks of stuff on film. 40 00:03:02.580 --> 00:03:06.360 Just Tom and Lala running hand in hand through the streets of Paris. 41 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:12.780 With Doggan. obviously. is just wonderful, fun to watch. 42 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:14.340 Dudley's on form. 43 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:16.020 It's well-direct... 44 00:03:16.020 --> 00:03:16.919 Listen, Dudley on four. 45 00:03:16.979 --> 00:03:17.759 He's terrific. 46 00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:19.080 And it is well directed. 47 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:22.379 Everyone felt like, you could feel that everyone was having a great time. 48 00:03:22.439 --> 00:03:25.680 It was a holiday for everybody, not just a holiday for the doctor. 49 00:03:25.740 --> 00:03:28.979 Well, the funny thing is do you want to know who it wasn't a holiday for? 50 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:37.319 Because at the time, this was in, at the time, this was in production, Destiny of the Dialects was in pre-production. 51 00:03:37.379 --> 00:03:49.680 So in Paris, you had Tom Baker, Lala Ward, Tom Shadbond, who plays Duggan, you had Graham Williams, who had the director Michael Hayes, and a small film crew, so one camera guy, 2 sound guys, I think. 52 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:58.259 So the noticeable name absent from there. is co-writer Douglas Adams, who was back in England minding the fort. 53 00:03:58.319 --> 00:03:58.979 For how long though? 54 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.460 Uh, I believe they were in Paris for about 5 days. 55 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:04.199 You know what really happened, don't you? 56 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:05.159 Kit with Kenny. 57 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:06.120 With Ken Greve. 58 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:12.360 Ken Greve came in to have a meeting with Graham Williams and Douglas Evans said, well, look, they've all gone to Paris. 59 00:04:12.419 --> 00:04:17.819 And Ken Green said, well, you know, you and I can only get so much done without the producer here. 60 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:22.019 You know, we can't decide locations and props and what have you. 61 00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:23.519 And he's like, oh, yeah. 62 00:04:23.579 --> 00:04:25.560 Oh, do you want to go for lunch? 63 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:26.579 Yeah, okay, let's go for lunch. 64 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:27.360 Where should we go for lunch? 65 00:04:27.420 --> 00:04:28.079 How about Paris? 66 00:04:28.139 --> 00:04:30.600 And so they got on the train. 67 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:32.819 And went to Paris. 68 00:04:32.819 --> 00:04:38.339 And yeah, really became good mates and they stayed friends until Douglas Adams died. 69 00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:48.660 I got chucked out of the same place that Tom and Lala and the rest of the crew were having, like, just a few hours afterwards and said, thrown out and said, where can we go? 70 00:04:48.720 --> 00:04:50.160 There's a bar open in West Berlin. 71 00:04:50.220 --> 00:04:55.740 They were in West Berlin and they got back to the London Studios just a few hours before the other lot came in. 72 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:56.279 Yes. 73 00:04:56.339 --> 00:04:57.660 Not a lot happened that week. 74 00:04:57.779 --> 00:05:02.759 Graham Williams, like, saw them in Paris and was so annoyed. 75 00:05:02.819 --> 00:05:07.620 He's like, you're meant to be back in London working. just Douglas apparently said something lines off. 76 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:08.459 Well so are you. 77 00:05:09.300 --> 00:05:11.879 They must have been down too well. 78 00:05:11.939 --> 00:05:17.759 There must have been some kind of impending writing deadline in Douglas's head. 79 00:05:17.819 --> 00:05:19.199 Go to those lengths. 80 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:22.199 But that's true, actually. was the great procrastinator. 81 00:05:22.259 --> 00:05:25.019 But no, apparently Williams wrote this story with Douglas as well. 82 00:05:25.079 --> 00:05:26.040 Yeah, absolutely. 83 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.180 Of course, it was originally a David Fisher story called a Gamble with Time. 84 00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:34.500 Setting 1930s, Monte Carlo, setting Roger Moore. 85 00:05:34.500 --> 00:05:36.839 It was set in Roger Moore and Tony Curtis. 86 00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:38.459 Because there was an episode of The Persuaders. 87 00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:48.420 There's one going to be one of those ITC kind of shows where there's a few little moments in Paris, but it was all going to be a backlot and some studio sets and set in the 20s Paris, but they realised when they got there. 88 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:50.639 Well, exactly, you know why it's all in Paris? 89 00:05:50.699 --> 00:05:51.899 Because John Nathan Turner? 90 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:56.339 The bean counter said it's actually slightly, it was £25 cheaper. 91 00:05:56.399 --> 00:05:58.800 Do the whole thing there than do the show that they'd started? 92 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:01.139 £25. 93 00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:13.920 I mean, part of part of the rewrite was that we could spend all this money making it look like 1930s or we can go to Paris and just have it look fabulous and still be 1979 and we can still have this time travel aspect. 94 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:20.519 The other thing was it was to be set in a casino and then Graham Williams went cold on the casino idea because he didn't like the idea of promoting gambling to children. 95 00:06:20.579 --> 00:06:26.339 So, you know, this is another example of Graham Williams being very plot driven, for instance. 96 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:34.199 I think that might have been a, you know, a 13th hour, I think, because Williams was very good at playing the producers. 97 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:36.180 And, you know, producers will always do it. 98 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.259 There's a story, you know, a posteriori from the events. 99 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:41.459 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100 00:06:41.459 --> 00:06:43.319 Because it was the Thursday. 101 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:46.379 It was the Thursday that it changed and the shooting was the Monday. 102 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:51.540 So he had no qualms about promoting art forgery. children. 103 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:59.339 But to his to his great credit, David Fisher looked at the final script and said, look, this is wonderful, but please, I can't put my name on it. 104 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:00.000 It's not right. 105 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:01.800 I'll do you another... 106 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:07.439 Sorry, so he decreed from the pit and started developing the story called the Fermasi, but we'll get to that. 107 00:07:07.980 --> 00:07:14.160 So yeah, we have a script written by Douglas Adams and Graham Williams credited to David Agnew. 108 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:16.680 And hasn't David Agnew got much better? 109 00:07:16.740 --> 00:07:19.139 He really has. since the invasion of time. 110 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:21.180 But yeah, it is wonderful. 111 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.000 I'd like to quote, if I may, from the discontinuity guide. 112 00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:25.680 So Cornell Day and topping. 113 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:29.579 This is their bottom line for the city of death. 114 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.139 Witty, happy, plotted so hard that you can sing it. 115 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:44.699 This is as gorgeous as this old heart of mine, sung by the Isley Brothers outside your window on a spring morning, while Emma Thompson gently massages your feet with aromatic oils. 116 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.139 That's Cornell. 117 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.379 But you know what? 118 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.139 I read that as a gay man, I go, you know what? 119 00:07:52.199 --> 00:07:53.279 I'd be very happy with it. 120 00:07:53.339 --> 00:07:55.980 Mainly because, you know, you get to chat with Emma Thompson. 121 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:56.579 I know. 122 00:07:56.639 --> 00:08:01.439 And of course, Emma Thompson was, I believe, a friend of Douglas Adams as well. wasn't everyone? 123 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:01.980 Yes. 124 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:07.800 And as they finish off, just when you think it can't get any better, John Bloody Cleese turns up. 125 00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:09.720 It's not just John Bodycleese, though. 126 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:12.000 It's Eleanor... 127 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:16.139 And as the Lions illustrates, it's vestigial function. 128 00:08:16.199 --> 00:08:17.459 She's wonderful. 129 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:19.259 She's just terrific in it. 130 00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:23.759 She's, you know, funnier than him and it is, it's such a surprise. 131 00:08:23.819 --> 00:08:27.240 It's such an incredible surprise little cameo. 132 00:08:27.360 --> 00:08:34.500 And I feel so sorry that they didn't, they didn't go with John's wish to be credited under a pseudonym. 133 00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:39.240 Because John said, look, the whole joke is that I'm there and it's a cameo. 134 00:08:39.299 --> 00:08:41.759 If you credit me as John Cleese in the radio times, people are going to know. 135 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:44.220 Oh, so was he credited? 136 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:47.100 He was credited in the radio times and in the credits. 137 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.340 He asked to be credited as Kim Bread. 138 00:08:51.600 --> 00:09:01.919 And I think maybe I think maybe, you know, if he if he'd gone for Jonathan Smith or something like that, which is a slight in joke. 139 00:09:01.980 --> 00:09:09.360 But I think maybe if you'd gone for that, David Reid would have said, yeah, okay, but in the end, David Reid said, no, we're not calling you Kim Bread. just stupid. 140 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:11.399 He should have asked to be credited as Robin Bland, really. 141 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:13.320 Or David Agnew. 142 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:15.600 Or John Cheese. 143 00:09:15.659 --> 00:09:16.679 Don't she? 144 00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:17.220 Yes. 145 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:25.559 Even better What do you praise first is the question in this story? 146 00:09:25.620 --> 00:09:27.659 Because coming back to the original question. 147 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:28.980 I can't criticise anything. 148 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.179 The elongated running around with absolutely nothing happening. 149 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:34.259 Who cares, though? 150 00:09:34.379 --> 00:09:35.399 Do you know what I mean? 151 00:09:35.460 --> 00:09:36.480 television's visual. 152 00:09:36.539 --> 00:09:40.080 That stuff creates the atmosphere that we pray. 153 00:09:40.139 --> 00:09:47.700 I'm about to remove my Julian mask and have Nathan underneath and Nathan's about to move his mask and have me underneath. 154 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.100 Yeah, because I'm being so relentlessly positive. 155 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:56.639 So Julian Julian Glover is unbelievably good in it, like just... 156 00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:01.740 As John Travolta in his Saturday night fever white disco suit with a suit. 157 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:10.620 But even that idea, and maybe it's the 1st time Doctor Who's done it, where you have hideous green tentacled monster with a lovely crevant. 158 00:10:10.679 --> 00:10:17.700 Like, I think that's just terrific and it's the sort of thing that Doctor Who now does as, you know, routine. 159 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:21.600 But I think it's the 1st time we have it here. 160 00:10:21.659 --> 00:10:22.860 I think it's just terrific. 161 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:29.820 I love his silk dressing gown thing that he threatens Kerensky in a bit later on. 162 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.779 He's really funny and tremendously good. 163 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.820 Like one of the best villains we've ever had. 164 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:49.200 That 1st scene where Tom and Duggan and Romana come round to his place, and you know, Duggan tries to hit him with a chair and all of that sort of thing, all of that dialogue is just spectacularly good, just unbelievably funny. 165 00:10:49.259 --> 00:11:04.259 I just wish that when they'd come home, but Glover had still been in his mother's dressing gown, aping the performance of Peter Cook as Sherlock Holmes in drag in the Paul Morrissey Hound of the Baskerville. 166 00:11:04.320 --> 00:11:12.539 Paul Morrissey was Warhol's filmmaker, but he went to England, did a spoof version of Hound of the Baskervilles with Peter Cook and Dudley Moore as Watson. 167 00:11:12.659 --> 00:11:21.120 And Holmes is Jewish and terribly camp, in full makeup and hair curlers, and his mother's dressing gun. 168 00:11:21.179 --> 00:11:27.419 And Watson is Welsh and Kenneth Williams, is Lord Baskerville. 169 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:37.019 And Irene Handel is one of the women with a dog that, an incontinent dog that, in her garden, It's one of the greatest films of all time. 170 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.600 And possibly my pick of the week. 171 00:11:39.659 --> 00:11:45.000 But the humour, the humour that imbues that imbues this story as well. 172 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:49.500 I haven't I haven't seen that, but I'm looking forward to finding it through Nathan's show notes. 173 00:11:49.559 --> 00:11:53.220 But you've almost got, we've almost got, it's actually really hard to track down. 174 00:11:53.279 --> 00:12:01.080 We've almost got that level of humour of self lampoon in this, and there are many reasons why this shouldn't work. 175 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:08.580 Because when you're having that much fun, you said it last week than when we were recording, that, Brendan, that everyone has fun except the audience. 176 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:09.960 And there's always a danger. 177 00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:12.960 But I don't think we get that in this thing, do we? 178 00:12:13.019 --> 00:12:17.759 No, you know, the performance that's closest to caricature, I guess, is Kuransky. 179 00:12:17.820 --> 00:12:20.100 And yet, that's, of course... 180 00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:20.940 The accent? 181 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:23.039 Yeah, yeah. you know the story? 182 00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:25.019 It's David Graham. 183 00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:26.700 It's Parker, from Thunderbird. 184 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:28.200 One of the original Daleks. 185 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:29.580 The original Dalek. 186 00:12:29.639 --> 00:12:32.700 And that's his maternal grandparents' actual accent. 187 00:12:32.759 --> 00:12:35.580 She said, no, they were Russian Jews and they actually started just like that. 188 00:12:35.639 --> 00:12:36.960 I'm not going to do that. 189 00:12:37.019 --> 00:12:37.860 It is an accent. 190 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:40.500 It is, you know, but it's not really a comedy actor. 191 00:12:40.559 --> 00:12:46.440 But he is playing it as a character, as a Thunderbirds puppet, hyperbole humour. 192 00:12:47.159 --> 00:12:50.820 That works because the balance, I think it just ups the menace of Scaroff. 193 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:52.080 Even Dugan too. 194 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:52.919 Do you know what I mean? 195 00:12:52.980 --> 00:13:00.120 Who's a bit of an idiot and, you know, his character thing is that he breaks glass and he punches people in the hand and stuff. 196 00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:04.080 And, you know, he is desperately earnest and not very bright. 197 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:15.840 But again, that's allowed to work because he's the one who actually saves humanity by punching someone in the head, which is precisely what the doctor's been telling him not to do. 198 00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:17.759 Notes came from Donald. 199 00:13:17.820 --> 00:13:23.639 She was a Grey McDonald, who was the head of series, and he got, he was a no fun sign, a lot of things that he was arguing against. 200 00:13:23.700 --> 00:13:27.600 But one of the notes that came down to Williams and Adams was there's too much hitting in this story. 201 00:13:27.659 --> 00:13:30.120 The chair leg, the whole thing was cut out. 202 00:13:30.299 --> 00:13:35.879 Tom was, you know, with Louis Khan's chair, but there was a thing with Tom doing the same thing that was cut. 203 00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:37.500 And I have to agree with him. 204 00:13:37.500 --> 00:13:43.679 At the time, Duggan was a real lodestone of dulness in this for me, and he still is. 205 00:13:43.740 --> 00:13:44.940 This isn't perfect. 206 00:13:45.059 --> 00:13:51.179 I like him paired with Romana in the cafe in the evening after they escape from the Louvre. 207 00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:55.019 And they have that lovely chance and what's, do you know what I don't understand? 208 00:13:55.080 --> 00:14:01.559 Yes, I. Yeah, of course, it always gives later a wonderful opportunity, but it's kind of their easy punches, aren't they? 209 00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:02.460 Pun intended. 210 00:14:02.519 --> 00:14:06.899 The violence in terms of Duggan. 211 00:14:07.620 --> 00:14:19.919 I do kind of see where you're coming from because, of course, Duggan is presented as an heroic character, but I think what helps in a way is not only does the doctor comment on it. 212 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:29.460 But, for instance, in the scene where the Countess Scarlioni is trying to shoot them and Duggan hits her with a vase. 213 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.059 He's genuinely apologetic that he's hit a lady. 214 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:34.080 You know? 215 00:14:34.139 --> 00:14:35.639 So he does have some scruples. 216 00:14:35.700 --> 00:14:38.820 And of course, he's a hangover from when the story was set in the 30s. 217 00:14:38.879 --> 00:14:43.860 He's bulldog Drummond in the 1930s, but just set in the 1970s. 218 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:45.659 So of course he doesn't quite fit in. 219 00:14:45.720 --> 00:15:01.500 I think it's also a comment on shows like the professionals, for instance, which was all brute force. and you've got the doctor and Romana saving the day by being hilariously witty and putting in... by being Steve and Mrs. Peel. 220 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:08.700 That 1st opening scene with them is a complete, it feels like an exact, you know, it's a bouquet. 221 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:10.019 It's Rig and McNee's. 222 00:15:10.080 --> 00:15:10.799 And you know what? 223 00:15:10.860 --> 00:15:16.740 When they're running away from the tower, you can just imagine that ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. 224 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.299 And, you know, I may redub that. 225 00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:22.200 They're so amazingly smart. 226 00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:23.340 They're so brilliant. 227 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:25.500 Everything that they say is a Bormo. 228 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:32.700 Every comeback, you know, they outwit Duggan all the time in conversation, you know, and they pride themselves on being smart. 229 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:39.240 It's the whole, you know, this season has a, you know, has a bouquet, and it's just them being immensely clever. 230 00:15:39.299 --> 00:15:43.559 And so to have Duggan defeat the enemy and not them is just perfect. 231 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:51.240 I think it is, but why is Duggan punching people worse than canine zapping people? 232 00:15:51.960 --> 00:16:00.360 A good point, because it's easier to copy because it comes from a human because, yeah, it's real low as, as opposed to fake. 233 00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:05.700 And because and there is the trouble with Tom this season. that we'll get to on precisely that point. 234 00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:15.419 But Duncan doesn't fit is so much the opposite of the 2 leads that it ends up being, it's just a point of inertia. 235 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:16.980 I like his performance actually. 236 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:18.120 I really do. 237 00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:19.440 I like Tom Chad. some charm. 238 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:20.340 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 239 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.220 And Tom Chadman certainly proven his worth on other things. 240 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.080 Well, yeah, like the mysterious planet. 241 00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:27.480 Yeah, not that he needs to prove it to us. terrific. 242 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:29.759 All that day glow on that helmet. 243 00:16:29.820 --> 00:16:32.100 I used to do divorce investigations. 244 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.460 They were never anything like this. wonderful. 245 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.860 I mentioned her earlier, Catherine Shell, fresh from space 1939. 246 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:47.159 And rather interestingly, you know, in space 1939, she was sort of an animal in human form. 247 00:16:48.059 --> 00:16:50.279 So awful. 248 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:52.740 But now she's married to an animal in human form instead. 249 00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.840 Oh, yes, yes, yes. 250 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:59.039 She isn't wearing the giant sideburns that she... 251 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.860 Or the... 252 00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:04.079 Or the herpes like eyebrows, doesn't she? 253 00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:04.920 Awful. 254 00:17:04.980 --> 00:17:08.759 But look, when we were when again, when we were 10, 12, it was terrific. 255 00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:09.660 No, it wasn't. 256 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:16.079 I remember being crushed, crushed with disappointment when a season 2 episode of Space 1999 came on. 257 00:17:16.140 --> 00:17:17.700 Where's that lovely Sam? 258 00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:18.480 Who's that terrible woman? 259 00:17:18.599 --> 00:17:19.680 Ryan Blisser. 260 00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:21.539 Where's Muffet? 261 00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:22.799 Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. 262 00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:23.880 It's the wrong. 263 00:17:24.059 --> 00:17:24.960 That's the wrong. 264 00:17:25.019 --> 00:17:26.700 Professor Watson. was his name? 265 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:27.960 Victor, where's Victor? 266 00:17:28.019 --> 00:17:30.059 Because, you know, he looks like Muffet. 267 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:31.140 Oh I see. 268 00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:33.599 She's fantastic. 269 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:34.859 What do we think? 270 00:17:34.980 --> 00:17:45.960 Like, I do remember people speculating about the nature of the count and countess's marriage, given that she seemed to be aware of. 271 00:17:46.019 --> 00:17:47.700 Yes, what else have I been doing? 272 00:17:47.759 --> 00:17:49.559 I think we know exactly what's going on. 273 00:17:49.619 --> 00:17:51.000 It's just terribly discreet. 274 00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:59.400 They have a perfect French marriage, which means that, you know, she loves wealth and to be sitting on the arm of a handsome gentleman. 275 00:17:59.460 --> 00:18:04.140 He also likes the company of other handsome gentlemen, and that's terribly exotic. 276 00:18:04.200 --> 00:18:06.240 She probably has Herman doing for her, actually. 277 00:18:06.359 --> 00:18:07.140 Actually, yeah. 278 00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:17.460 Herman actually works really well if you want to relive this in the privacy of your own playroom, Brendan, with a Roger Delgado master figure and you just white up his hair. 279 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.619 He's, you know, perfect or something. 280 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:21.299 I do fancy Herman a bit. 281 00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:22.019 It's the gloves. 282 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:30.180 But I will note that, you know, there could be a different reading to Count Scarlione's line about, you know, it hasn't taken much to fool you. 283 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:32.279 A few trinkets, a bit of nefarious excitement. 284 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:34.140 He didn't say that he was the provider. 285 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.559 He might have just been turning the other way. 286 00:18:37.619 --> 00:18:39.480 I thought she assumed he was gay. 287 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:41.099 I'm assuming. 288 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:42.960 Every man must have a hobby. 289 00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:47.039 She gets very defensive when he's in the company of other men. 290 00:18:47.099 --> 00:18:48.779 He does, doesn't she? 291 00:18:48.839 --> 00:18:50.880 Yes, there's a scene of, oh, she's not... 292 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.279 With the professor... 293 00:18:53.279 --> 00:18:54.720 There's plenty in that for everyone, isn't it? 294 00:18:54.779 --> 00:18:58.079 So yeah, she assumes he likes some wizened old daddies. 295 00:18:58.140 --> 00:19:00.480 I'm really surprised that they're all sets. 296 00:19:00.539 --> 00:19:03.539 The Louis Can's palazzo said, although we're in Paris. 297 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.039 Is a set? 298 00:19:05.099 --> 00:19:09.960 Yes, yes, I assumed that they're just on some Paris filming one of their charmers, but no, no, it's all them. 299 00:19:10.019 --> 00:19:10.859 No, is it? 300 00:19:10.920 --> 00:19:12.119 Paris, W-12. 301 00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:13.500 Well, they would have only taken. 302 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:15.539 They would have only taken a film camera over. 303 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.299 And 3 cam show. videotape, yeah. 304 00:19:18.359 --> 00:19:20.339 Copies, art copies. 305 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.859 This is something that Sandra goes on about. 306 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.539 The thing about art, there's something about scarcity and there's something about authenticity. 307 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:28.980 Are you talking about Walter Benjamin? 308 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:30.900 art in the age of mechanical reproduction. 309 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:39.000 Yeah, well, Duchamps taking Azamut taking a fountain and saying that this is now art because I've written Amut on the side of it. 310 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:41.700 It goes back to Rembrandt. 311 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:45.000 Rembrandt's students painted his, he was the 1st Warhol. 312 00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:46.799 He barely touched and stuff. 313 00:19:46.859 --> 00:19:48.779 He was just sort of lying pang. 314 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:52.380 Make that guy look out at the view. 315 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:52.920 Yeah, yeah. 316 00:19:52.980 --> 00:19:55.440 He was one of the first, he was the first entrepreneur. 317 00:19:55.500 --> 00:19:56.339 He had a factory. 318 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.500 So you get all that stuff about computer paintings, you get all that stuff about rarity and scarcity. 319 00:20:01.500 --> 00:20:12.900 And this thing, which I thought was really terrible as a kid and now I think it's spectacular, where the only surviving Mona Lisa has the words, this is a fake, written in fell tip under the paint. 320 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.940 I just think it's spectacularly gray. 321 00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.359 Has anyone heard of Vincent, so Perugia? 322 00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:20.640 No one, not even his mother has heard. 323 00:20:20.700 --> 00:20:22.440 Vincenzo Carusia. 324 00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:28.980 He stole the Monalisa in 1911, by sticking it under his smock, and he's had it for two weeks. 325 00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.140 It is a very pretty painting. 326 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:32.819 It is a very pretty painting. 327 00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:34.559 Hope it wasn't under a smock for 2 weeks. 328 00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:36.720 And it wasn't really, stop it. 329 00:20:36.779 --> 00:20:37.980 It wasn't really valued. 330 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.380 It was one of the huge hordes. 331 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:43.680 Lots of stuff that brought back my Napoleon, the first Napoleon. 332 00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:43.980 Right. 333 00:20:43.980 --> 00:20:46.500 With his with his his old nick and spree. 334 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:54.420 But it wasn't really, people, for those 2 weeks in Paris, 1911, was queueing up to look at the blank spot on the wall, apparently. 335 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.859 They really were. 336 00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:58.140 That, I think, is what Adams is really getting right here. 337 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:05.880 And there's some really, really clever meta going on about what Doctor Who is and what television is and what art is and are we making art? 338 00:21:05.940 --> 00:21:07.259 Well, I think we actually are. 339 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:21.539 You kids are sitting watching this and your family, folk at home, and you're thinking this is a lovely romp, or this is another ITC Persuaders Saints spy show over, or this is a lovely thing with, you know, some BBC character actors whom you've all enjoyed. 340 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:46.799 But we're actually talking about a whole lot of things on what television is and what, art is and what fun is, it's perfectly spelt out, what this season is doing, and it dovetails beautifully, I should say, with the development of the character of Romana, and you adroitly pointed out last episode that this is where Romana discovers her humanity. 341 00:21:46.859 --> 00:21:54.059 In this one, she discovers her humanity in the social sense or in the sense of how she responds to a world. 342 00:21:54.119 --> 00:21:57.839 When she says, most tellingly, well, computers can draw. 343 00:21:57.900 --> 00:21:58.619 Yeah. 344 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:08.700 She actually gets the whole, the whole point of this story is, is, the 2nd iteration of where we're going to end up with Shada. 345 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:18.000 It's the most socialist series, not communistic socialist series that Doctor Who has ever done, because it's smarty pants socialism. 346 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:24.900 It is, everyone has the right to be the best they can possibly be, but on their own individual merit in their own individual terms. 347 00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:31.740 It is not about perceived or procured wealth from outside. 348 00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:33.000 It is not about how much you can get. 349 00:22:33.059 --> 00:22:34.980 It is not about what you can acquire. 350 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:37.740 It's not about how many iterations of the same thing you can get. 351 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:39.960 They're always end up being the baddies. 352 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.099 We'll see it with a draster. 353 00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:41.700 We'll see it. 354 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:43.140 We've seen it with Davros. 355 00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.660 And we're going to see it further along the line. 356 00:22:45.660 --> 00:22:47.519 All the way through the season. 357 00:22:47.579 --> 00:22:57.660 This is the story where Romano very gently is introduced to what it is to be an individual in a culture where individualism is prominent, and that is France. 358 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:01.140 France has booted all of this right from the revolution. 359 00:23:01.259 --> 00:23:02.700 Did you want to throw that in now? 360 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:04.740 I just wanted to hear your Vicki... 361 00:23:04.859 --> 00:23:05.759 Revolution? 362 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:06.119 Thank you. 363 00:23:06.900 --> 00:23:11.220 This story is, as you say, it's a love letter to all those things. 364 00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:19.799 It's a love letter to artist, it's a love letter to the personal response of art, and it's an indictment of A version of the collector mentality. 365 00:23:19.859 --> 00:23:24.599 Now, we're fans, you as listeners are probably fans as well. 366 00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:29.579 And I imagine we all have a collection to some degree or another. 367 00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:38.099 Now, what this script is talking about, it's loving the people who collect because the objects mean something to them. 368 00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:39.660 Now, when I was living in the UK. 369 00:23:39.720 --> 00:23:41.700 I snapped up every doctor who action figure I could. 370 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:54.480 And then it came time when I was looking at some of them and I was thinking, mostly the new series one, so, you know, things like the scarecrows from human nature, family of blood and the, and the Slovine and space pig. 371 00:23:54.539 --> 00:24:02.640 I kind of looked at them and went, I've got all these, but I've also got the Fender, and I've got the Vok, and I've got the sea devil. 372 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:08.039 And those last three, they're the ones I have a personal response to, and I'm happy when I see them on the shelf. 373 00:24:08.099 --> 00:24:10.140 The others, it's kind of like, it's nice to have them. 374 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:15.960 They're very well put together and I don't blame anyone for whom, you know, that's your 1st monster and you love that monster. 375 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:22.019 Are you saying you weren't collecting 2 action figures for the individuation of your own wealth and power in the world? 376 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:25.740 He was doing it so that he could finance time travel experience. 377 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:26.400 It's okay. 378 00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:27.420 I could come down. 379 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:28.619 But that's the thing down the line. 380 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:34.619 Yeah, there's a difference between that and doing it just for the sake of putting yourself up in society. 381 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.220 Don't think anyone buys Doctor Who action figures to give themselves prominence in culture. 382 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:39.059 No, exactly. 383 00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:42.480 So I ended up getting rid of the ones that didn't give me that free song. 384 00:24:42.539 --> 00:24:43.980 Oh my god, I can't believe I own this. 385 00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:48.059 And I use that to buy more of the classic ones. 386 00:24:48.119 --> 00:25:09.059 We have we have knowledge before we have wealth, and Romana and the doctor will always be infinitely more wealthy than anyone they come across, even though they only ever have a few song teams in their pockets because they have the wealth of themselves and their experience and their and their wit enough money to buy Weirbase. 387 00:25:09.180 --> 00:25:11.160 They do see, I don't think they even pay. 388 00:25:11.220 --> 00:25:12.359 Did you notice the car? 389 00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.960 In the 1st trip, the thugs have to pay for the classes of water. 390 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:17.700 In France, you still have to pay for water. 391 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:31.319 But it just struck me that we're talking about copies of the Mona Lisa being produced, but of course there is a moment in the cafe where the TV is showing a picture of the Mona Lisa and presumably TVs all over Paris are as well. 392 00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:36.720 And so, you know, everyone has a little copy of the Mona Lisa in their home at that one moment. 393 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:46.740 And it is that thing where Scarlioni would think that the doctor was being naive when he talked about what the painting looks like. 394 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:52.680 The doctor's line, it's a very pretty painting, which is why do people want to steal the Mona Lisa? 395 00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:53.640 It's a very pretty painting. 396 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:54.900 Of course, that's not the reason. 397 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:57.420 You know, it's not because it's a very pretty painting. 398 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:02.640 It's because it's unique and because it has this provenance because it's fetishized. 399 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.680 Yeah, fetishising is it's the perfecting of the object, as Freud says, it's the love object. 400 00:26:07.740 --> 00:26:13.559 It's having to possess that which is no longer possessible as is the love of the parent. 401 00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:17.160 So, you know, they want to own it because they, and possessing it. 402 00:26:17.220 --> 00:26:19.980 It's the void that can never be filled. 403 00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:24.299 They keep needing to acquire. some really high concept stuff in this. 404 00:26:24.359 --> 00:26:26.160 But it's all coming down. 405 00:26:26.220 --> 00:26:29.400 It's actually coming down to, you could see it as an ecological thing. 406 00:26:29.460 --> 00:26:34.019 This season is about possessions and why you really want them. 407 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:36.000 Romana and the doctor don't really have very much. 408 00:26:36.059 --> 00:26:37.559 Yeah, they have themselves. 409 00:26:37.619 --> 00:26:42.240 And there is nothing, there is nothing intrinsically bad about wanting possessions. 410 00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:43.440 And I think that's why... 411 00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:47.339 I think the season actually says there is. that's exactly what this story is about. 412 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:50.460 But it is your purpose in wanting them. 413 00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:58.200 Yeah, I don't think Dr. I think honestly, yeah, 4 parts about copying Dr. Correction figures would probably not have had the same. 414 00:26:58.619 --> 00:27:00.599 Although they didn't have them then, did they? 415 00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:01.500 Only Dennis Fisher. 416 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:10.319 To give you an example of something recent, Richard, you were having a look at the photos before of my little Nintendo things that you can scan into the system. 417 00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:12.299 They're called Amibos. 418 00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:14.700 They came out about a year ago and there was a shortage of them. 419 00:27:14.759 --> 00:27:24.779 Nintendo weren't expecting such huge demand, which meant people were walking into Kmart and Target, and soon as stock were coming in, just arm across the shelf, all into their basket, buying them for 17 a pop and selling them for 50. 420 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.279 And that is exactly what Scarlione's doing here. 421 00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:32.400 Of course, you know, he's doing it with something slightly more important than Nintendo figures. 422 00:27:32.460 --> 00:27:34.859 He's doing it with Gutenberg Bibles. right. 423 00:27:34.920 --> 00:27:37.559 But do we do that next week as well? 424 00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:42.059 isn't creature from the pit all about economy and scare. 425 00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:43.680 Even more so, yes. 426 00:27:43.740 --> 00:27:44.640 Yes. 427 00:27:44.700 --> 00:27:47.519 And it gets hammered home next season. 428 00:27:47.579 --> 00:27:51.359 There'll be lots of metallic references only the first. 429 00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:52.799 Yeah, but that's the thing. 430 00:27:52.859 --> 00:28:04.259 In a way, Scarlioni, Scaroff, is the oldest human who ever lived because he's been human in all these different points in history, but he just doesn't get it. 431 00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:06.119 There's no evolution there, is there? 432 00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:06.539 Exactly. 433 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:09.180 He may live for a long time, but he doesn't mutate. 434 00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:09.839 He doesn't change. 435 00:28:09.900 --> 00:28:15.599 Do you know we haven't mentioned perhaps the most important guest role in the entire story? 436 00:28:16.740 --> 00:28:18.900 It's Packer. 437 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:20.160 Packer is back. 438 00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:22.440 Peter Halliday. holiday. 439 00:28:22.500 --> 00:28:24.900 It's one of the guards, that's right. 440 00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:27.180 Yeah, he's the guard for Captain Tancredi. 441 00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:29.759 And that is that... 442 00:28:29.819 --> 00:28:33.960 He's also one of the Jokeroth voices in the opening credits. 443 00:28:34.019 --> 00:28:36.839 The other one, the other one, Tom Chapman, yeah. 444 00:28:36.900 --> 00:28:40.200 Peter Halliday was the go-to guy to be voices in the 60s, wasn't he? 445 00:28:40.259 --> 00:28:43.980 He was the Nicholas Briggs of the 1960s. 446 00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:44.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 447 00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:49.559 It's just small part, you know, like Packer is in it for 8 episodes. 448 00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:51.960 He's got a huge amount to do. 449 00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:57.480 Here, Peter Halliday is just at the end of, what, episode 3 in the beginning of episode four? 450 00:28:57.539 --> 00:28:58.200 Yes. 451 00:28:58.200 --> 00:28:59.880 And he's really terrific. 452 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.079 He's just terribly good. 453 00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:05.400 He doesn't steal a scene away from Tom, but he's really tremendously charming. 454 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:08.880 And like something changes. 455 00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:15.660 That cliffhanger isn't the doctor so much in peril as, oh my god, something very different is going on from what we think. 456 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.660 It's not just an alien trying to steal the Mona Lisa. 457 00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:21.180 Something much, much more complex is going on. 458 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:22.740 It's a really good moment. 459 00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:26.640 Yeah, and I love how 45 years later. 460 00:29:26.700 --> 00:29:29.940 We still haven't met Leonardo da Vinci on screen. 461 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:31.259 You know, he's never should. 462 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:33.420 He's mentioned in Mask of Man Dragara. 463 00:29:33.480 --> 00:29:36.240 We think we're going to meet him here and we don't. 464 00:29:36.299 --> 00:29:38.759 I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned in the new series. 465 00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:44.220 But it's such a Doctor Who and Douglas Adams thing to do, and it kind of comes back to what you were saying, Richard. 466 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.460 You know, people might have been sitting there going, oh, we're going to meet Leonardo da Vinci. 467 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:55.200 No, instead we're going to have a very, very funny and, but at the same time, very tense and scary bit with just 3 actors sitting in a room. 468 00:29:55.440 --> 00:30:02.099 This series is, I think, what Graham Williams always wanted to do, and it just took him a while to get there. 469 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:09.720 He's trying to make Doctor Who a big sci-fi blockbuster with great special effects in his 1st year and realised he couldn't do that. 470 00:30:09.779 --> 00:30:12.779 And then he tried to do a story arc and that sort of collapsed in all itself at the end. 471 00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:17.940 So he's doing a series of self-contained adventures, but linked by a common theme. 472 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:29.460 And I think, you know, recognising that his strengths are going to lie in the quality of the writing and, you know, just getting compelling, if not good actors, you know, to say the lines. 473 00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:35.940 And if you can manage to make the sense beautiful, which unfortunately in season 17, you almost never can. 474 00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:37.380 Just so much the better. 475 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:42.779 But yeah, I think, you know, this is where that whole approach just pays off in spades. 476 00:30:42.900 --> 00:30:50.940 Now, hopefully he's not going to try and take off on warp drive, but here's a little obelisk we got hovering over our heads. 477 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.759 It's a it's a double-inverted optimism, yeah. 478 00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:55.440 So it's just an octahedon. 479 00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:56.279 Yeah, yeah. 480 00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:57.720 I was never any good at geometry. 481 00:30:57.779 --> 00:31:01.440 She is, though, because she gets the 2.73 by 6 metres. 482 00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:03.839 That is such a funny line, though, what Scarlia. 483 00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:05.579 You know where that's from, don't you? 484 00:31:05.640 --> 00:31:10.500 The 1905 Arthur Conan Doyle, um, Shock Holmes story. 485 00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:12.900 I keep from wanting to say Northhanger Abbey. 486 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:14.099 Do you remember the name of the story? 487 00:31:14.220 --> 00:31:17.819 Anyway, Holmes works it out by there's something. 488 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:22.319 It's very Po, really, but the false room by noticing the inside dimensions. 489 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:23.640 Oh, yeah. 490 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:28.440 And she's walking up and down with the thing, saying the, like measuring the thing in metres and stuff. 491 00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:34.440 I actually really love how she's off investigating things while the doctor is, you know, being a dick. 492 00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:37.019 She's carrying explosives. 493 00:31:37.079 --> 00:31:38.160 You want to see what Ramana is to it? 494 00:31:38.220 --> 00:31:38.880 Looks terribly interesting. 495 00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:41.039 You know, she's quick to blow the brick ball. now. 496 00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:42.119 Yeah, yeah. 497 00:31:42.180 --> 00:31:46.799 Since that's why she's dressed as a centrinian student in this. 498 00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:48.720 Because she's a naughty girl. 499 00:31:48.779 --> 00:31:49.740 She's a bakoonist. 500 00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:51.359 She just wants to blow up the establishment. 501 00:31:51.420 --> 00:31:54.480 I do love how she sort of said in later interviews. 502 00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:57.599 You know, people wrote in and said, oh, you're dressing as a schoolgirl. 503 00:31:57.660 --> 00:32:01.500 I never thought of that and I don't see why anyone should think of schoolgirls in that way. 504 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:02.700 Thank you, gentlemen. 505 00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:04.079 She just cuts that down. 506 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:06.059 You know why she's not right to. 507 00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:10.380 At the time, she did it because they wanted her, they had, you know the story? 508 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:15.839 The costume that they had been designed for her was a silver lyrics one piece catsuit. 509 00:32:15.900 --> 00:32:17.400 Haven't we been here before, perhaps? 510 00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:19.380 Yeah, it's mind robbery again. 511 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:21.299 Well, they were still designing for Mary, weren't they? 512 00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:22.740 Well, they were designing for Zoe. 513 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:24.119 It's not going to wear it. 514 00:32:24.180 --> 00:32:27.240 They were designing for Wendy Padbury in 1968. 515 00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.799 But anyway, that was the concept and Lana said, no, I hated school. 516 00:32:31.859 --> 00:32:33.059 Bren has already pointed it out. 517 00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:36.299 Let's make what we dislike, we own. 518 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:38.519 Let's turn it around and love it. 519 00:32:38.579 --> 00:32:40.200 The feminist movement had already brought this in. 520 00:32:40.259 --> 00:32:44.039 What most oppresses you, possess it, and make it your own. 521 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.720 So is her outfit in leisure heights about how much she hated her time in the Navy? 522 00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:50.160 Absolutely. 523 00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:54.359 Or as a Pinocchio doll or whatever it was that she was forced to be. 524 00:32:54.420 --> 00:32:55.740 It's a perfect costume. 525 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:57.180 We'll see you coming out. 526 00:32:57.240 --> 00:32:57.900 It's perfect. 527 00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.039 Yeah, nice. 528 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:00.359 And she really wears it. 529 00:33:00.420 --> 00:33:11.099 Well, and there's some really clever moments where you can see the 3 of them working together where she's being a horribly clever school girl and doing precocious things and, oh, look, there's just opened the Chinese puzzle box because she told me not to. 530 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:12.599 Yeah. 531 00:33:12.660 --> 00:33:13.920 Lots of things through this. 532 00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:15.059 She's in Paris. 533 00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:15.839 It's Madeline. 534 00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:16.559 Yeah. 535 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.279 Just draw me like one of your French girls. 536 00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:22.140 She says. 537 00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:25.859 Anyway, sorry to keep you waiting, Tom, but we were talking about Lala. 538 00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:31.319 So here we are at the City of Death, the much lauded city of death. 539 00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:36.299 Or, as David Fisher likes to call it, 35% of the gamble with time. 540 00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:42.180 Look, there's no denying that this is a great script, great performances, there's certainly a panache to it. 541 00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:47.579 Scareth dies at the end, but does that automatically kill all of his other versions through time? 542 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:49.680 Are they still working to the same end? 543 00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:52.200 And how many times can Scarothon be knocked out? 544 00:33:52.259 --> 00:33:57.480 I guess you'll want my head on a platter for actually suggesting that this may not be the most perfect story of all time? 545 00:33:57.539 --> 00:34:02.039 I guess I should jump into this giant hole that just opened up in the ground next to me. 546 00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:05.279 We call it the... 547 00:34:05.579 --> 00:34:09.360 They seem to be a gestalt of one entity though, don't they? 548 00:34:09.420 --> 00:34:12.599 There is an explanation, I can't remember what it is in the novelisation. 549 00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:15.480 So there's a recent novelisation by... 550 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:16.559 The lovely Gareth? 551 00:34:16.679 --> 00:34:17.099 No. 552 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:18.659 No, James Gotts. 553 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:19.619 No, I tried it. 554 00:34:19.679 --> 00:34:20.039 Yeah, yeah. 555 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:21.119 This is why I haven't bought it, yes. 556 00:34:21.179 --> 00:34:22.139 Yeah, it's really good. 557 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:23.760 It is... 558 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:26.219 No, no, it is really good. 559 00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:30.420 I was a little bit disappointed because I did like the Shada novelisation will talk more about that later. 560 00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:35.460 And I thought, oh, you know, I didn't know who James Goth was, to be honest. 561 00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:42.480 For listeners of a similar event, who aren't quite sure who James Goss is and his Doctor Who connections, what did you call me? 562 00:34:43.199 --> 00:34:46.860 Sillabent. 563 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:47.880 There Yeah, there you go. 564 00:34:48.900 --> 00:34:52.380 James Goss produced Scream of the Shelter. 565 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:53.280 He did too. 566 00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:57.840 He also produced the invasion animations for episodes one and four. 567 00:34:57.900 --> 00:35:02.340 He's done lots of Doctor King since then and novels and books and comics and what have you. 568 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:09.840 And presently he is, I believe, one of the producers on Big Finish's Dark Shadows Range, which has won several awards. 569 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:16.920 So, you know, he's got he does have his chops, but you're right in that a lot of people, fans of the older series, may not know who he is. 570 00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:19.380 And there was this incredibly passionate fan. 571 00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:29.219 You know, there was this association between season 17 and Gareth Roberts because of things like the romance of crime and the well-mannered war and those various missing adventures he set during that period. 572 00:35:29.280 --> 00:35:36.900 He's got an essay called Tom II, I think, in license denied, which is this sort of very full-throated defence of the Williams era. 573 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:38.340 Thank you for bringing that up. 574 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:54.179 There's a great essay in that one, which came out years ago, dear listener, um, of just a collection of essays that Paul Cornell cobbled together, of how good, when there was the revival of Infandom of Love for the William series, and it was, there's an essay in it why we should love the Naim one. 575 00:35:54.239 --> 00:35:54.780 Do remember that? 576 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:55.739 No, I say. 577 00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:57.480 Anyway, we'll get to that further down. 578 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.619 Yeah, so I had just wanted him to do it. 579 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:06.719 James Goss's novelisation is really terribly, terribly good though. 580 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:08.940 Is it add new things? 581 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:10.019 Yes, yeah. 582 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:12.480 So it is a very, very faithful novelisation. 583 00:36:12.539 --> 00:36:19.619 It doesn't always use the versions of the script or the line readings that made their way into the transmitted version. 584 00:36:19.679 --> 00:36:23.699 Sometimes he'll pick a different reading, which I think is interesting. 585 00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:32.820 You know, it adds something I can, if I want to relive a scene, any scene at all in City of Death, I can just close my eyes for a few minutes and, you know, I've got to memorise. 586 00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:34.440 That adds something new. 587 00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:43.019 He adds stuff about what it's like for Scaroff to experience his life now that he's been splitting time. 588 00:36:43.079 --> 00:36:48.059 And in fact, the cliffhanger to episode one, he has to give a reason for it because it's a novel. 589 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:50.460 He can't just have the character go down and tear his face off. 590 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:52.980 Yes. 24 minutes into the episode. 591 00:36:53.039 --> 00:36:55.860 It's about time something scary happened. 592 00:36:55.920 --> 00:37:02.400 So he has, he has Scarlet only not fully aware that he's an alien. 593 00:37:02.460 --> 00:37:09.000 And so his face is itching and it's almost like he's as surprised as we are to see the sort of green thing underneath. 594 00:37:09.059 --> 00:37:10.980 And so all that's really good. 595 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:20.820 And he adds a hilarious extra depth to the John Clayson Eleanor Bronx characters who don't just appear in a cameo. 596 00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:22.920 It's terrific. 597 00:37:22.980 --> 00:37:23.820 It really is great. 598 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:25.739 My thought. 599 00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:38.639 Because, yeah, I never really thought about what happened to his part, Splinters, until, until this moment, and I think it's the, it's the argument we get in the new series. in that they've already lived and died. to lead up to this moment. 600 00:37:38.699 --> 00:37:51.059 You know, they're not reacting to anything that happens any differently because as the doctor says, it always happened, it always has to happen, you know, you can't do it, you can't change it. 601 00:37:51.119 --> 00:37:54.179 Now, obviously, he can change it, otherwise the doctor wouldn't try to stop him. 602 00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:59.639 But the doctor has always stopped him, and those past incarnations have always worked towards essentially nothing. 603 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.119 You don't actually have to be quite as tummy whiny as that, though, do you? 604 00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:06.480 I mean, the only one of the incarnations, the one in 1979. 605 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:17.579 He's the only one with technology available to him to create the time machine, and that's what he says, you know, to have this limited level of technology available to me now in 1979. 606 00:38:17.820 --> 00:38:20.460 You know, all my other selves have worked. and stuff. 607 00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:26.460 So once he's gone, there's no one far enough in the future to have access to time travel technology. 608 00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.739 Yeah, so they can't do anything. 609 00:38:28.800 --> 00:38:30.360 Maybe they don't know what's happened. 610 00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:32.099 He's just disappeared? 611 00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:34.019 They can't communicate with the splinters? 612 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:36.360 Yeah, yeah, he's the most future. 613 00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:40.739 Yeah, he's the futurist one, which is why he's the one who has the technology. 614 00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:44.400 Although you do get the one in the Norman helmet, which is made out of tinfoil. 615 00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:48.599 And as a kid, I always thought he was in the future because he was covered in pinfoil. 616 00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:50.460 And that's the thing, as a child. 617 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:54.360 I'm like, why is the one in 1979 doing all the technical stuff? 618 00:38:54.420 --> 00:38:55.739 This guy's wearing tinfoil. 619 00:38:55.800 --> 00:38:56.579 He must be from the future. 620 00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:58.320 Didn't you think that wasn't like that? 621 00:38:58.380 --> 00:38:59.639 Exactly. 622 00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:02.940 Didn't you think that if he's got a holographic projector that's as clever as that? 623 00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:04.380 He'd be the richest man on earth. 624 00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:06.300 Steve Jobs didn't have that inset. 625 00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:07.139 Yeah, that's true. 626 00:39:07.139 --> 00:39:08.519 Why doesn't he need the paintings? 627 00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:14.460 He's a narrow focussed to continue the projector metaphor, narrow focussed, naughty person. 628 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:15.239 Isn't he? 629 00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:21.360 Like all greedy collectors that can only see through the camera obscure of their own little prim prick of line. 630 00:39:21.420 --> 00:39:31.980 See, now I'm just envisioning comic book guys, the collector in that Simpsons Halloween episode, where he kidnaps Lucy Lawless, so he can put her between Doctor Who and Yasmin Bleef. 631 00:39:32.460 --> 00:39:34.920 I don't know who any of those are. 632 00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:35.880 I have no idea either. 633 00:39:35.940 --> 00:39:37.380 I'm not a young person. 634 00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:56.340 Well, do, listener, as we run away hand in hand from the Eiffel Tower. 635 00:39:56.579 --> 00:39:57.000 I'm flying. 636 00:39:57.059 --> 00:39:57.420 What about you? 637 00:39:57.539 --> 00:39:59.820 Don't be ostentatious. 638 00:39:59.940 --> 00:40:02.460 We'll see you next week on the planet. 639 00:40:02.579 --> 00:40:04.860 Chloris, I hope you've eaten your greens. 640 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:12.840 Don't forget, before then, you can find us at bondfinger.com, where we have commentaries for 1st 5 Connery Bond films. 641 00:40:12.900 --> 00:40:18.300 You can also find that as Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter. 642 00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:27.659 Please follow us on Facebook and iTunes at Flightthrough Entirety, Flightthrough Entirety.com and FTE podcast on Twitter. 643 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.559 And if you could retweet or reshare this podcast, we would love that. 644 00:40:31.619 --> 00:40:32.760 So please do so. 645 00:40:32.820 --> 00:40:33.480 Thank you very much. 646 00:40:33.719 --> 00:40:43.559 Until next time, I'm just going to go watch City of Death again, because apparently as a child, I would watch it 3 times a week, and that VHS is still holding up. 647 00:40:43.619 --> 00:40:44.460 Did you? 648 00:40:44.460 --> 00:40:45.179 I did. 649 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:49.619 According to one of my, according to my cousin who babysit me, I drove her insane. 650 00:40:49.739 --> 00:40:53.460 Until next week, thank you very much for listening and good night. 651 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:54.179 Good night. 652 00:40:54.239 --> 00:40:54.719 Good night. 653 00:40:56.099 --> 00:41:01.679 That was Fight through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone. 654 00:41:02.099 --> 00:41:08.519 This episode, croft with disappointment, was recorded on the 6th of December, 2015. 655 00:41:08.820 --> 00:41:12.119 The next episode will be released on January 31st. 656 00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:14.400 I had enough. 657 00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:16.139 Yep, that living in the beginning, yeah. 658 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:17.039 Yep, this is it. 659 00:41:28.619 --> 00:41:30.900 Running through France.