WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:07:22 1 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:33.479 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety 2 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.659 the only Doctor Who podcast where we have such a way with words. 3 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:37.920 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:38.880 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:38.939 --> 00:00:39.479 I'm Richard. 6 00:00:39.539 --> 00:00:39.780 Hi. 7 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:45.240 We're not off to play all day in our little green cathedral, but 8 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.979 very close to it, as we call it the creature from the pit. 9 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:00.479 Right, Richard, it's Eileen Way, it's Myra Francis, and it's all 10 00:01:00.479 --> 00:01:01.500 yours. 11 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.200 It's it's all everybody's. 12 00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:07.079 Is this the greatest Doctor Who story ever made? 13 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.780 I know you want to say this. 14 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:11.760 This was one of the ones as Todd has said before. 15 00:01:11.819 --> 00:01:14.040 This is one of the ones that had to that came wrapped in plastic 16 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:15.900 and had remained wrapped in plastic. 17 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:19.379 I had to unseal it from its feroic tomb last night. 18 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.219 And again, I only just watched it and it's pretty damn good. 19 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:24.299 It is good. 20 00:01:24.299 --> 00:01:26.340 It's pretty damn good. funnier than I remember. 21 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:32.280 Let's begin before the beginning where we were with this... from 22 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:33.299 the last point. 23 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:35.519 What is this thing and where is it coming from? 24 00:01:35.579 --> 00:01:37.260 Okay, we're on a jungle of blah, blah. 25 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:38.819 And there's lots of other science fiction stuff. 26 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:40.980 There's green living things and it's all a set. 27 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:42.239 Cozzies are great. 28 00:01:42.299 --> 00:01:46.140 There's reasons that some of this really, really works and they're 29 00:01:46.140 --> 00:01:47.219 all called Eileen Way. 30 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.019 And yeah, my Maya's pretty good. 31 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:50.879 But how amazing is Carella? 32 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:53.939 She does serious single note. 33 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.219 I'm not corpsing. 34 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:57.840 I really believe in this performance. 35 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:01.680 It's like we've got Billy back on set because I, can you tell the 36 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.219 difference between Eileen Way and William Hartler wasn't a very 37 00:02:05.219 --> 00:02:05.700 tall actor. 38 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.039 Wasn't very social in the same room, did you? 39 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:12.060 Can we just remind people who Eileen Way is... 40 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:16.020 Eileen Way, apart from a cat whisperer, you know, as I've 41 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:19.139 mentioned before, she was the woman during this shooting of this 42 00:02:19.139 --> 00:02:22.139 that brought in a cassette tape of her cat singing and she would 43 00:02:22.139 --> 00:02:23.699 sing with her cats and she gave it to Tom. 44 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.699 So Tom loved her forever. because of that. 45 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.240 But she started off as old mother in tribe of gum. whatever we 46 00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:30.780 call that thing. 47 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:34.199 There shall be no fire, but she's actually even more fabulous for 48 00:02:34.199 --> 00:02:40.620 being that rather naughty lady in the in the 2nd Dalek film, who 49 00:02:40.620 --> 00:02:47.699 cottages, cruelly cottages, and sells Roberta Toby for some cans 50 00:02:47.699 --> 00:02:48.719 of Heinz baked beans. 51 00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:49.500 And you know what? 52 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:51.840 I hope she got some change as well. 53 00:02:54.180 --> 00:02:58.860 Here we have, the doctor responding to a distress signal by Romana 54 00:02:58.860 --> 00:03:02.939 finding an egg timer and sticking it on the console, along with a 55 00:03:02.939 --> 00:03:03.900 lovely box of stuff. 56 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:09.120 From the 4th box of room full of stuff, including bits of the 57 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:12.539 hyperspace gate generator from Stones of Blood. 58 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:13.139 Did you notice that? 59 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:13.919 Yes, I did. 60 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:15.240 Bits of that sticking in the esky. 61 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:20.039 And it's the ball of string that he used to get Theseus out of the 62 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:20.520 labyrinth. 63 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.180 And even better. 64 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:23.039 Which will be referred to again. 65 00:03:23.099 --> 00:03:24.539 With a thank you note. 66 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:27.780 And even better than that, the 1st and I think only biblical tie 67 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:30.599 in reference with a drawbone of an ass. 68 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:31.919 Don't be a Philistine. 69 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:32.520 That's right. 70 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:35.639 As the listener will no doubt know being biblical scholars like us 71 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:39.840 all, that Samson apparently killed a 1000 Philistines with that 72 00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:41.340 said same jawbone. 73 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.860 Of course, it was all fun and games in the Old Testament, wasn't 74 00:03:43.860 --> 00:03:45.539 it, until a kiddie lost Jawbones. 75 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:47.340 Until you lost both your eyes. 76 00:03:47.340 --> 00:03:48.780 That's right. 77 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:50.400 That's right. 78 00:03:50.460 --> 00:03:54.300 So, but it also starts off most importantly, picking up from where 79 00:03:54.300 --> 00:03:57.479 we were is that Time Lords dig Beatrix Potter. 80 00:03:57.539 --> 00:04:02.219 And more importantly, both have the time to read Beatrix Potter to 81 00:04:02.219 --> 00:04:03.419 the point that Romana has been what? 82 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:07.560 It isn't long from season 16 to season 17, because the doctor 83 00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:14.759 quotes his age as being still in 760 or 750. 3 or 4 years. 84 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:17.339 Romana's rounding down these days. 85 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:18.000 She does. 86 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:18.600 Yeah, she goes. 87 00:04:18.660 --> 00:04:21.420 She said 140 to 125. 88 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:22.920 Well, you know, a girl can do that. 89 00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:26.819 But don't you think that's part of coding Romana as an 90 00:04:26.819 --> 00:04:27.720 aristocrat? 91 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:31.560 Because those things, the Beatrix Potter books are, you know 92 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:35.639 quintessentially part of that kind of aristocratic upbringing 93 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:39.000 they're the things that everyone who, you know, has read, who was 94 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.759 brought up at a particular time in the mid-20th century. 95 00:04:41.819 --> 00:04:45.120 And the reason Roman has read them is not because they have them 96 00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.439 on Galafre or anything like that, but because she's, you know, a 97 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:52.740 lovely, proper Poschberg. 98 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:53.399 Yes she really is. 99 00:04:53.459 --> 00:04:55.860 But it's also a very middle-class thing. 100 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.939 And yes, they're nodding to Mitford and war and that period. 101 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.720 But I think they're also saying that, well, to me, they're 102 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:06.420 actually saying that time wants a bookish, time wants to live in 103 00:05:06.420 --> 00:05:06.720 books. 104 00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:11.519 This whole season is again about a life of mind internal as averse 105 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:13.319 to a life of acquisition. 106 00:05:13.379 --> 00:05:16.500 We'll get it to the point at Charter where we have a book that's 107 00:05:16.500 --> 00:05:20.819 actually synicline on of the story and the point of power itself. 108 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.019 There is power in books. 109 00:05:22.139 --> 00:05:26.279 I think it also ties in with Lala's vision of the character. 110 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:31.259 And that's not hugely prevalent in this story, of course, because 111 00:05:31.259 --> 00:05:32.879 this was the 1st story she recorded. 112 00:05:32.939 --> 00:05:36.420 It was still being written for Mary by one of Mary's great writers 113 00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:38.939 David Fisher, because of course Mary has wonderful things to do in 114 00:05:38.939 --> 00:05:40.560 Stones of Blood and Androids of Tara. 115 00:05:40.620 --> 00:05:44.339 But I think the line can be read in 2 different ways. 116 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:47.399 It can be read in the Mary way of saying, oh, doctor, but Peter 117 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:48.240 gets away. 118 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:49.500 Don't you know? 119 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:53.339 Whereas the way Lala reads it is more how a child might react to 120 00:05:53.339 --> 00:05:54.540 saying, but it's okay. 121 00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:55.860 I've read this one. 122 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:57.300 I know what happens. 123 00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:58.079 Don't be silly. 124 00:05:58.139 --> 00:05:58.740 He's fine. 125 00:05:58.800 --> 00:05:59.699 Why are you so concerned? 126 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:03.060 A child would react like that to a story they already know. 127 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:06.600 And I think that's Lala sort of bringing, bringing that already. 128 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:10.680 You know, that childlike thing of, yeah, calm down. 129 00:06:10.740 --> 00:06:13.439 That's fine, Mum, you know, there's no actual monster under the 130 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:14.040 bed, you know? 131 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:18.060 So she hasn't bedded her performance down quite yet, though. 132 00:06:18.180 --> 00:06:20.819 No, no, and she talks about that on the commentary. 133 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:22.560 This is her 1st story. 134 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:24.899 Yeah, it's and it's also the 1st story four. 135 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:27.300 David Rowley. 136 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.160 He's really irritating, isn't he? 137 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:31.199 He's sort of Aurac. 138 00:06:31.259 --> 00:06:32.220 It's canine. 139 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:33.120 Very much so. 140 00:06:33.180 --> 00:06:34.920 Actually, very high pitched. 141 00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:37.019 He's like Tampa. 142 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.420 Yeah, incorrect master. 143 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:41.339 The transceiver is fully operative. 144 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.560 You know, it's a. am not made of tin. 145 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:46.560 Oh, this is where he gets called a tin dog as well. 146 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:47.459 Probably. 147 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:48.959 Point the dog against the rock. 148 00:06:49.379 --> 00:06:51.600 So he's very arch. 149 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:53.100 He's doing a sort of Aurac thing. 150 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:55.980 He's much camper and much less cute. 151 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.819 Like, John Leeson does cute computer voice. 152 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:04.860 Briarly's a little bit more sassy and a little bit more sarcastic 153 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:05.399 and stuff. 154 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.240 Well, I think you're seeing the difference in performance as to 155 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:13.620 the difference in this rehearsal setup where we had John Leeson 156 00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:17.279 crawling around on all 4s and being terribly engaging with the 2 157 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:21.899 leads, but David Brierly quickly realised you could just use any 158 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:22.860 toy pram. 159 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:26.220 So it's actually a toy perambulator, but it's pushed around during 160 00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:26.819 rehearsals. 161 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.139 Really? 162 00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:29.040 He's sitting in the sidewalk. 163 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:30.120 Yeah, sitting in the sightseeing. 164 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:32.220 Just having a fag and just Yeah, a big catty. 165 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:32.819 Yeah, yeah. 166 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.459 I, you know, I quite like David Bryanley's performance. 167 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:40.139 I did have I think I had 2 friends when I was a child who watched 168 00:07:40.139 --> 00:07:41.220 her as well. 169 00:07:41.939 --> 00:07:44.279 Not in general, Richard. 170 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.920 And one of them. 171 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:50.339 One of them was imaginary. 172 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:55.379 One of them was imaginary, and the one was a leaf. wouldn't watch 173 00:07:55.379 --> 00:07:59.699 a story with the wrong canine as he put it. 174 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:01.259 No, that's not the record. 175 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:07.079 Whereas as a child, I didn't particularly, I didn't particularly 176 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:08.279 notice the difference in the voice. 177 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:09.899 No, I didn't. 178 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:10.740 No, no. 179 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:12.779 I think as adults, you know, it's very easy to tell. 180 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:17.100 Yeah, I didn't notice until he pointed out, and even then I didn't 181 00:08:17.100 --> 00:08:17.339 care. 182 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:21.480 I think the 3 David Brierly stories are where we have the most 183 00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:25.860 memory of canine being a smart ass and being snooty. 184 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.199 I think he brought that to the role and John Leeson has carried 185 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:28.500 that on. 186 00:08:28.620 --> 00:08:34.919 John Leeson's canine was a bit more petulant than snooty, like 187 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:36.419 when he has some tantrum. 188 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:39.120 Well, not exactly tantrums, but when he sulks when Leila tells him 189 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.340 off and when Mary Tam tells him off. 190 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:46.139 And but yeah, John Leeson, as he played the role in, say, Sarah 191 00:08:46.139 --> 00:08:48.720 Jane adventures with the constant bitching with Mr. Smith. 192 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:50.519 That's David Brierly. 193 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:51.720 That's what David Riley brought. 194 00:08:51.779 --> 00:08:54.360 So do we know why Leason's not in these stories? 195 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:55.740 He just had enough. 196 00:08:55.799 --> 00:09:00.240 No, he was off to find and exploit lots of exciting opportunities 197 00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:02.519 that came from his exposure and Doctor Who. 198 00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:03.779 He'll be back soon. 199 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.500 Such as Mission to Destiny in Blake 7. 200 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:08.220 Yeah, pretty much. 201 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:13.139 It's an interesting correlation of canine with the Zeit cost of 202 00:09:13.139 --> 00:09:13.799 humour at the time. 203 00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:19.320 We had the cerebral self knowledge, but generosity of Douglas 204 00:09:19.320 --> 00:09:24.659 Adams, but Above and beyond that, the humour in Britain and in 205 00:09:24.659 --> 00:09:26.580 Australia at the time was actually very catty. 206 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.940 The spirit of the age was bitchy. 207 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.220 Bitchy humour was the thing. 208 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.620 And you know, we look at it now and we think, well, that's kind of 209 00:09:34.620 --> 00:09:36.840 a bit wrong, simply because society has progressed. 210 00:09:36.899 --> 00:09:42.779 But it was all about the, um, It was all about the progression or 211 00:09:42.779 --> 00:09:46.139 the, the self-progression of the individual over everybody else. 212 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.399 And you see it in, it started with Python, which really lampooned 213 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:53.580 that, but also kind of celebrated that John Cleese's perfect 214 00:09:53.580 --> 00:09:55.919 example of that, of his style and his tone. 215 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.120 The television series at the time, the soap operas, like dynasty 216 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:00.840 that were about to come. 217 00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:06.600 But that catty tone, which you're pun intended, of the tin dog, is 218 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:09.840 very much the period of the period of humour. 219 00:10:09.899 --> 00:10:15.120 So it couches really nicely with Adam's intention. 220 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:18.779 And I would like to think David Fisher's as well. of where this 221 00:10:18.779 --> 00:10:19.379 season is going. 222 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.399 This, if you ever had any doubt, this story is about capitalism 223 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:25.200 having gone bonkers. 224 00:10:25.980 --> 00:10:28.139 You have all these opportunities and what do you do? 225 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:29.820 You stick it down in the ground. 226 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.360 You know, we could be talking about uranium. 227 00:10:33.419 --> 00:10:36.240 We could be talking about the exploitation of whatever else. 228 00:10:36.779 --> 00:10:40.379 The story is explicitly about the economy, isn't it? 229 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.139 Even to the point that it doesn't even bother using metaphor. 230 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:44.399 It's about British steel. 231 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:49.799 And it's about how the unions, I can't criticise them for it. we're 232 00:10:49.799 --> 00:10:54.179 locking down and saying, because imports from, it was actually 233 00:10:54.179 --> 00:10:55.559 Eastern block metals coming in. 234 00:10:55.620 --> 00:10:57.299 It was an inferior product, but it was cheaper. 235 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:01.320 Wages pretty much because inflation was going up so much. 236 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:04.799 We've seen how that affects the Doctor Who production schedule 237 00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:07.259 itself, but it was over and over again. 238 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:10.980 But it was also affecting the pound, and to us over here, the 239 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:11.340 dollar. 240 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:15.659 Also, the owners of British steel, or the people who were in 241 00:11:15.659 --> 00:11:18.360 charge, were actually giving themselves plain risers every year 242 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:21.059 and knocking back hours and laying people off. 243 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:24.720 So, of course, there was this impasse, where metal was that metal 244 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.779 was the point around which there were whole towns like Sheffield 245 00:11:27.779 --> 00:11:30.360 where there was one industry for generations and generations, and 246 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:31.320 that was steel. 247 00:11:31.379 --> 00:11:35.100 So this couldn't be more accurately about England. 248 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:38.639 The scientists of the '60s, noted here, have moved on to be the 249 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:43.379 exploiters of the '70s, the ideas of technology freeing us. 250 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:47.279 And now, well, we're actually just using it to You seeing the 251 00:11:47.279 --> 00:11:50.279 beginnings of what we're seeing now with world finance, and world 252 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:52.740 banking, and the pressure on the actual worker. 253 00:11:52.860 --> 00:11:53.759 Pressure. 254 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:56.879 Mind you, they never had as nice hats, did they? 255 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:57.960 as they're having this one. 256 00:11:58.019 --> 00:12:03.120 All these amazing What are these outfits that, like any oppressive 257 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.840 regime and its final bands will wear a lot of black and a lot of 258 00:12:06.840 --> 00:12:10.559 capes, will see that in Nylon, but my goodness, can we mention the 259 00:12:10.559 --> 00:12:13.259 wolf weeds and the perhaps the huntsman? 260 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:14.580 The huntsman in those wolfweeds. 261 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:15.539 David Telfer. 262 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.340 Does he make his own little outfit, do you think? 263 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:19.559 Or do you think Madame Carella designed everything for everybody? 264 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:21.779 rubber nodules. 265 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.519 They're the ones. 266 00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:25.740 The Ren and stinky rubber nodules. 267 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:26.100 Yeah. 268 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.759 You know, he probably didn't strike me in the way that he struck 269 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.059 you two, but he has such an important role in the pool. 270 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:34.320 It ends up running the planet. 271 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:35.460 Yeah, precisely. 272 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:40.799 And it is, what Adrast is doing is deliberately perpetuating 273 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:48.059 scarcity so that she remains wealthy at the expense of everyone 274 00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:49.559 else in her society. 275 00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:53.159 And she gets away with that because the underclass. 276 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.940 And I think this is the most unfortunate flaw in the thing. 277 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.720 So you have the brigands or bandits. 278 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:03.480 I can't remember what the dialogue calls on the bandits. 279 00:13:03.539 --> 00:13:08.100 And they're the underclass and their job is to steal stuff from 280 00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:08.639 the rich. 281 00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:13.500 But the scarcity benefits them as well, once they get successful 282 00:13:13.500 --> 00:13:17.399 once they actually get their hands on some metal, the scarcity 283 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:18.779 benefits them. 284 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.299 And we talked last week about fetishising objects beyond the... 285 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:25.679 We talked about Brenton's action figures. 286 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:27.059 That's it. 287 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.440 That was essentially the context. 288 00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:30.899 But they start to fetishize metal. 289 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:35.220 You know, it's not something you can eat, you know, like none of 290 00:13:35.220 --> 00:13:37.740 the things that they make out of it are particularly useful. 291 00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:43.019 There is a little bit of talk about using metal tools to cultivate 292 00:13:43.019 --> 00:13:44.220 the planet or something like that. 293 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:49.500 But they just value it in itself because it's something rare. 294 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:52.320 Not because it makes their lives any better. 295 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:57.240 And so, so you've got both sides of the political equation 296 00:13:57.240 --> 00:13:59.399 depending on this scarcity. 297 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:04.980 And Torven and his men actually reject the idea of a deal with 298 00:14:04.980 --> 00:14:05.580 Erato. 299 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.159 And so does Eileen Wei, you know, very forcibly. 300 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:11.220 She would prefer the planet to be destroyed. 301 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.759 She would risk the planet being destroyed, because she doesn't 302 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:16.620 want to surrender her wealth. 303 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:21.120 The doctor gives her one line after address has been... 304 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.539 How do you say subsumed by Erato? 305 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:29.519 There's really, no, we're avoiding the elephantine, a dumper in a 306 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:30.179 room, a room. 307 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:30.539 Yes. 308 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:31.379 Yeah. 309 00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.440 And she says, no, I would rather have the wealth and the power. 310 00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:36.179 And then the doctors, so be it. 311 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:39.539 So again, there's a serious moment where the doctor could actually 312 00:14:39.539 --> 00:14:42.600 you know, gives them a chance to be free and to liberate and think 313 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:44.700 for themselves, but they choose not to take it. 314 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:46.379 And you know what? 315 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.519 In a way, this story makes me angry. 316 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:53.279 And it doesn't make me angry in the way that underworld makes me 317 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.080 angry that it's an opportunity. 318 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:59.639 It makes me angry because why are all these things still 319 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:00.299 relevant? 320 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:01.200 You know? 321 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.039 That's a good question. 322 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:06.480 Why didn't Creature from the Pit solve this issue once and for 323 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:06.720 all? 324 00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:07.740 You know what, you know what I mean? 325 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:11.159 We are still, we are still living in a scarcity-based thing. more 326 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:11.460 so now. 327 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.559 Despite our environmental problems. 328 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.500 We have the power to start solving our environmental problems. 329 00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:20.820 We have the ability to feed and clothe everyone on the planet. 330 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:24.000 We have the ability to provide everyone with free or cheap power 331 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:25.320 and we don't do it. 332 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:25.620 Why? 333 00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:28.139 Because the world is run by Adrasters. 334 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:29.340 Yeah, exactly. 335 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:30.179 Well, this is the point. 336 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.679 Why this story is great. 337 00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:35.639 Literacy, and therefore irony, build a civilised society. 338 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:39.299 And what is erata but the muse of epic poetry? 339 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.159 What is he bringing? 340 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:43.980 Words, ideas, thoughts. 341 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.059 Yeah. 342 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.159 Yeah, I always wondered why he's called... 343 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.179 And massive willies. 344 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.220 Yeah, so can we talk about that? 345 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:53.340 There's a whole documentary on the on the DVD. 346 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:57.419 Yeah, full of people just apologising for how... 347 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:58.799 I don't think he's crap at all. 348 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:00.000 I thought it was great at the time. 349 00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:05.279 And it's probably the only alien to receive a blowey from a 350 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:05.580 doctor. 351 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:07.980 I can't put it any other way. 352 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:10.200 They should have just cut the appendages off. 353 00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.000 I'm sorry. 354 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.519 Every listener crosses their legs. 355 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.039 Yeah, he's meant to be a giant brain. 356 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:18.120 Don't give him appendages. 357 00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:19.139 Just the blob is great. 358 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:23.519 And the CSO work with Tom against the gigantic blob in the huge 359 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:24.000 cavern? 360 00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:25.139 That looks wonderful. 361 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:26.399 There's nothing wrong with it. 362 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:30.120 And then you give him these 2 piffly little cock arms. 363 00:16:30.179 --> 00:16:31.860 They're crazy, aren't they? 364 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.080 And there are other things about the production that are really 365 00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:34.620 good. 366 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:35.879 As we said, the sets are great. 367 00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:40.620 The decision to shoot the exteriors, the forest exteriors, studio 368 00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:46.500 scenes on film really pays off. so much better than Eden will next 369 00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:46.679 time. 370 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.360 This is Christopher Barry, isn't it? 371 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:49.679 Yeah, Christopher is back to the last one. 372 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:52.919 He puts a lot of time and effort and he's done his pros and his 373 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:54.360 cons are both in evidence here. 374 00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:57.779 Puts a lot of effort into getting the look of it right. 375 00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.460 So, as you say, the sets are right. 376 00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:02.639 That lovely moment of the shell in the 1st episode, some love and 377 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:03.120 model work. 378 00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:07.619 He's the one that demanded there were 3 reshoots of the Erato 379 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:09.960 models and 2 shoots at the space scenes. 380 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:13.019 Matt Irvine was dragged across Coles, literally. 381 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.480 They do that kind of thing in the BBC for all of that stuff that 382 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:15.900 was going wrong. 383 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.619 It had another, it's now been put on, oh, it's the space billy of 384 00:17:19.619 --> 00:17:19.980 doom. 385 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:23.460 Well, actually, no, it was that's just a really convenient thing 386 00:17:23.460 --> 00:17:26.400 on peg on which to hang your complaints. 387 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:29.039 Yeah, you see what I did there? 388 00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:34.019 But the real problem was that, you know, you could see the string 389 00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:36.900 on the TARDIS model in space in the 1st time. 390 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:37.920 This is what I've said before. 391 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:41.579 Matt Irvine is a lovely, charming bloke, and further on now, you 392 00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:44.759 know, a lot of fun, but he's not a designer and he's not a visual 393 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:45.119 guy. 394 00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:49.019 He likes making things, but I never thought his designs were up 395 00:17:49.019 --> 00:17:49.319 there. 396 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:51.960 And this is the point where it all comes home for him. 397 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:54.000 He almost loses his job. 398 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:58.559 And yeah, there were 3 reshoots of the models. 399 00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:02.099 Be that as it may, it's ultimately the directors comes back onto 400 00:18:02.099 --> 00:18:02.940 the director. 401 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:05.400 I mean, a lot of Christopher Berry spent a lot of time trying to 402 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.680 get all of that rights and all the rest of it. 403 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:09.779 But again, timing malfunction. 404 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:13.920 All the stuff that should be good, he just rushes in the last 405 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:14.640 episode. 406 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:18.299 The thing is that the countdown 24 hours till the Dumo. 407 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:19.019 That's the script. 408 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.680 But there's all these things that should be interesting and could 409 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.619 actually propel a narrative and we just get episode 3 of padding 410 00:18:25.619 --> 00:18:28.980 and we get episode 4 all squished up into a little box in the 411 00:18:28.980 --> 00:18:29.160 end. 412 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.220 I mean, I think that that bit at the end is boring. 413 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.519 You know, the actual resolution and it makes no sense. 414 00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:39.359 So, you know, there's an approaching neutron star and that's quite 415 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:39.660 good. 416 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.000 The destruction of the world is going to be the inevitable 417 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.420 consequence of the greed of a draster that works. 418 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:48.480 But then there's 15 minutes after she's... 419 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.859 Yeah, just wandering about. 420 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.839 Well, and in the Tartar set. 421 00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:54.299 And, you know, they have this charming idea that they think they 422 00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:58.259 can reduce the neutron stars' gravity by weaving a big aluminium 423 00:18:58.259 --> 00:18:59.099 shell around it. 424 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.420 But Tim Foil hunt on it. 425 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.039 Presumably will weigh something. 426 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.119 Do you know what I mean? 427 00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:05.519 It sounds like a shore fire wave increasing its gravity. 428 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:08.279 But again, no one on this show ever knows how gravity works. 429 00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:10.740 There's something coming in and it looks a little bit stranger 430 00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:11.279 than usual. 431 00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:12.900 Oh, it's wrapped in tinfoil. 432 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.559 It's Todd. 433 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:16.980 You know what? 434 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:18.960 I quite like Creature from the Pit. 435 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:24.299 I like Carella, the wolf weeds, Adraster, even though she's a bit 436 00:19:24.299 --> 00:19:25.559 shrill towards the end of her life. 437 00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:29.099 And I think Geoffrey Bowden's performance is a tour de force. 438 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:33.240 But since I've actually activated the randomiser, there are other 439 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:35.279 elements of this story, that just working against it. 440 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:39.839 I mean, canine and Romana are not quite themselves, but with good 441 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:40.140 reason. 442 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.259 And, guys, what were they thinking with all the appendages of 443 00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:43.920 Arato? 444 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:44.640 I'll never know. 445 00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:48.839 But I guess the thing that undermines, I think, the whole story is 446 00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:49.740 the robbers. 447 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.500 They're, like, out of a Monty Python sketch. 448 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.619 In fact, it all becomes a bit of a nightmare. 449 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.380 Oh, wait, that's next. 450 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:02.940 We've got to the year to the room. 451 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:03.720 Bacon now, haven't we? 452 00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:05.880 Yeah, yeah, the... 453 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:07.920 The vegan thing is really terrible. 454 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:09.059 Yeah, yeah. 455 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:12.240 We were talking about this, Nathan and I and I were saying that 456 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:16.680 you know, there's a point I would counter that with, is that Mel 457 00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:18.660 Brooks was an afficionado of this. 458 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.660 If the listener remembers young Frankenstein and blazing 459 00:20:21.660 --> 00:20:22.619 saddellers and all the rest of it. 460 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:27.420 And he's been criticised by other members in the in the theatre 461 00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:29.640 group as being, why do you always year it up? 462 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.400 Why do you always make the Jew, the Joker in the Room? 463 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:35.700 And he said, because of their laughing at us, they're not hating 464 00:20:35.700 --> 00:20:35.880 us. 465 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:40.440 And he said, also, my villains are even more laughable and played 466 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:40.920 by Jews. 467 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:43.380 So he would cast his Nazis. 468 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:45.420 Wonder Woman, the 1st series of Wonder Woman did the same thing 469 00:20:45.420 --> 00:20:48.480 and used Mel Brooks's character actors as their nasties. 470 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:49.319 I'm sure I've said that before. 471 00:20:49.380 --> 00:20:53.279 But no, his argument was that if you make light of everything, if 472 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:57.839 you make it a point of humour, there is the repose after laughter 473 00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.259 of the pause after laughter, when the air is expelled, where you 474 00:21:01.259 --> 00:21:04.740 can then receive the information, if you like, where you then 475 00:21:04.740 --> 00:21:10.319 receive the information as stable and measured, a position as 476 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:12.119 possible, and you've got rid of the emotion. 477 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:14.460 So you've got rid of the anger as well as with the laughter. 478 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.200 He thought about this that carefully. 479 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:20.700 The difference is that Mel Brooks, being Jewish, is allowed to do 480 00:21:20.700 --> 00:21:24.480 comedy Jews, but other people are... 481 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:25.259 Well, this is the thing. 482 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:26.519 I don't know about that actually. 483 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:29.759 Well, I think, you know, Fagan is... 484 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:33.359 But I deplorable character and it undermines the character in a 485 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:38.279 way because he's immediately coded as stupid and greedy. 486 00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:42.960 And it should be a discovery that he is stupid and greedy, that he 487 00:21:42.960 --> 00:21:46.920 is willing to sacrifice these people for exactly the same reason 488 00:21:46.920 --> 00:21:48.180 as Adraster will. 489 00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:52.140 I don't think that comedic model necessarily applies in this 490 00:21:52.140 --> 00:21:56.339 narrative in this story, for the similar reason, and that it's an 491 00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:57.059 add on. 492 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.599 It's a distress signal stuck onto the console of the TARDIS. 493 00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:01.740 This is not part of the story. 494 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.160 This is a comedy Jew put in for the sake of being a comedy Jew. 495 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:09.779 It's not growing or contributing to anything. 496 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.640 It's just that that's a funny character. 497 00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.220 And so if you'd been in blackface or yellowface, it wouldn't have 498 00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:14.819 made much difference. 499 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.220 We're talking about money, we're talking about usury and 500 00:22:17.220 --> 00:22:17.940 acquisitiveness. 501 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.380 So therefore we use a Jew. 502 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.059 I think it's really unfortunate. 503 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:24.660 And I think it's, I actually agree that in this context 504 00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:26.579 Christopher Barry kind of got it wrong. 505 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.599 Yeah, yeah, no. 506 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:28.799 It does. 507 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:29.579 Is it funny, though? 508 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:30.720 No, it's not. 509 00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:32.400 That's the other thing too. 510 00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:33.539 He's not that funny. 511 00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:36.539 And it is the thing that Douglas has complained about a lot of 512 00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:39.420 times where people think, well, there are jokes in this. 513 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:41.279 There are brilliant jokes in this script. 514 00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:42.059 They're great. 515 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:43.440 David Fisher is really funny. 516 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.440 He's been fit vetted by Douglas Adams. 517 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.180 They're some really good jokes here. 518 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:52.140 But whoever plays Torven, I can't remember his name, has looked at 519 00:22:52.140 --> 00:22:55.259 the script, seen those jokes and decided to be silly. 520 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.660 The way that Louis Fiander will next week. 521 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.599 And it spoils it, I think. 522 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:03.119 But it's Chris Barry's. choice. 523 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:05.640 The scripts just say, you know, they're huge. 524 00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:08.640 They just say hairy buggers. excuse us. 525 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:11.519 They seem to cast them as bacon, yeah. 526 00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:15.299 I do have to wonder about that, though, because his offsiders, the 527 00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:17.819 main 2 of whom are called Idu and Ainu. 528 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:23.819 His 2 offsiders aren't ridiculous and over the top, you know, and 529 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:24.299 stupid. 530 00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:25.019 There is some comedy. 531 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:28.259 They do get to do some jokes, but they don't do this gross 532 00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:29.279 stereotype. 533 00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:29.880 Yeah, exactly. 534 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:33.960 And the through line that David Fisher writes in there is that 535 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:37.980 those 2 kind of slowly start to realise... actually, Torpen's 536 00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:39.599 pretty much as bad as a dress. 537 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.000 Yeah, he hasn't actually killed anyone, but he's as greedy and 538 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:42.480 whatnot. 539 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:43.740 Maybe we shouldn't be like that. 540 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:48.539 And yeah, I think that message is kind of spoiled with how OTT 541 00:23:48.539 --> 00:23:49.200 Tourbon is. 542 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:53.880 Torden should have been a sort of slightly knockabout, laddish 543 00:23:53.880 --> 00:23:55.980 kind of character with a mean streak. 544 00:23:56.220 --> 00:23:59.880 He needs to be a revolutionary, and then we discover that he's 545 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:01.980 operating by the same rules as a Draft Star. 546 00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:04.619 Maybe they don't have room for the complexity of that. 547 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.859 I would have liked that subtlety, but I think that they're all 548 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:11.099 seeing Williams and Douglas Adams do have a message here. 549 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:15.119 And it is that all forms of usury and acquisitiveness, unless 550 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:20.519 they're of intellect and the generosity of self-development, which 551 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:24.839 does go outwards, is by its own nature corrupting and destructive 552 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:25.259 of society. 553 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:26.819 Well, I mean, that's right. 554 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:31.079 These people prioritise possession of things over their own well 555 00:24:30.480 --> 00:24:31.079 being. 556 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.880 And rich and poor are just as guilty. 557 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:37.140 You know, a dresser is morally worse than Torven because she has 558 00:24:37.140 --> 00:24:37.859 power. 559 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:41.400 But, But yeah, the moment he's he's still operating by the same 560 00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:45.720 rules and same priorities that she is. 561 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:50.339 There's a scene early on where Adraster is grilling 2 of her 562 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:51.480 engineers. 563 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:54.180 Welsh watch. 564 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:55.079 Welsh watch. 565 00:24:55.140 --> 00:24:58.559 Yes, it's the last appearance of Terry Walsh in the classic series 566 00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.599 as Doran and he gets some dialogue. 567 00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:04.559 And also one of her engineers, I think it's the engineer, she 568 00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:05.400 throws in the pit. 569 00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:11.940 Holland is played by Maurice Barry. director of tomb of the side 570 00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:12.420 of it. 571 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:13.799 So we have... 572 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.019 And a more fitting fate, you could have come up. 573 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:18.480 Yes, I wanted to throw him in a pizza, actually, after watching 574 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.500 team of the sign of me. 575 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:24.539 So we have the director of the Daleks, throwing the director of 2 576 00:25:24.539 --> 00:25:25.319 of the Sidemen. 577 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:27.240 In the pit. 578 00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:30.900 Ah, Jeffrey Balden. 579 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:33.359 As Organon. 580 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.500 Or no organ, if you want to. 581 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.339 So I didn't really watch Cat Weasel, I have to say. 582 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.859 I think I watched the final series, maybe. 583 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.440 Is that the one where he's on the search for like the 13th? 584 00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:49.380 Yeah, to the Manor Bourne series where they think that you can 585 00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:51.960 stick one series into another, although it was before all of 586 00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:52.140 that. 587 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:53.519 The 1st series is sublime. 588 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:55.259 Really perfect. 589 00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.599 And so this was a children's television program. 590 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.359 And then we played television 69 to 70. 591 00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:03.119 He played a wizard from... 900, yes. 592 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:09.059 Well, from, you know, from 1066, who's transported to 1969. 593 00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:10.019 Yeah. 594 00:26:10.019 --> 00:26:13.380 And was he considered at some point a possible doctor? 595 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:19.200 He was actually on Verity's quite long list of doctors way back in 596 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.259 the day, but he didn't want to get locked into anything in the 597 00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:23.700 same way that Crowden did for 3 years. 598 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:27.119 Although it was 18 episodes, though, words. 599 00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:28.140 I don't know where that was coming from. 600 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:31.200 He's superb, although he kind of always plays his same part. 601 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:35.160 The thing is, verity was offering contracts for 52 weeks and she 602 00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:35.940 wasn't telling anyone. 603 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.960 She only had 13. 604 00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:40.079 You know, she wanted to be able to turn around and say to the 605 00:26:40.079 --> 00:26:40.559 BBC. 606 00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:41.819 Oh, well we might as well carry on. 607 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.759 I've got all these actors Actors. 608 00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:46.140 God, he's good. 609 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:47.400 He is really good. 610 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:48.420 So good with Tom. 611 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.240 It's these little moments that make this season work. 612 00:26:51.299 --> 00:26:54.240 Well, again, it's like you have Julian Glover and Tom, you get 613 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.759 Jeffrey Balden and Tom and the 2 of them are wonderful. 614 00:26:56.819 --> 00:26:59.279 That thing where Tom goes up to him and sort of claps his arm 615 00:26:59.279 --> 00:27:03.539 around him and says, you know, Sorry, old chap. 616 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:09.960 I particularly like, um, The past explained the future foretold 617 00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:12.180 the present apologised for. 618 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.619 It's so well developed. 619 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:14.519 Delivered, isn't it? 620 00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:15.240 It's terrific. 621 00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:19.319 And it is great, Douglas Adams dialogue, you know, and he's 622 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:20.099 metering the whole thing. 623 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.180 Well, I love the line about lady Adrastus throwing the ambassador 624 00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:26.640 down the pit and throwing astrologers at him. 625 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:31.500 You do see Jeffrey bailed in in the background, just sort of 626 00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:32.160 smashing at that. 627 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:34.019 Hey, I'm right here. 628 00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:37.859 It is such a strong cast, isn't it? 629 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:39.240 Fantastic. 630 00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:46.079 You know, I really think that Torven as played by John Bryant's. 631 00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.960 He is the only weak link, in my opinion. 632 00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:53.099 I think a draster is spectacularly good, isn't she? 633 00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.759 She really, actually, she could, you could say, well, I mean, she 634 00:27:56.759 --> 00:28:00.240 eats the entire room, but Arlingway definitely, I wouldn't say 635 00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:03.720 underplays it, but plays it as it needs to be. plays it straight. 636 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.420 Unique. admirer balances off that. 637 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.299 It could so easily have been even more so. 638 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.859 And it is, but it's nicely done. 639 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.440 It's not too, it's too much, but it's not too much. 640 00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:20.400 When Doctor Who has more than one villain, normally at the end of 641 00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:22.740 the story, you have to dispatch. 642 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.359 Well, in fact, there's no rule. 643 00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:27.299 Sometimes you dispatch them in order of scariness and sometimes 644 00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:29.940 you dispatch them in decreasing order of scariness. 645 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.180 And I think Lady Adraster looks like she's the villain all the way 646 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:33.359 through. 647 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.079 But Karela is seen on camera murdering someone. 648 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:38.279 Do you know what I mean? 649 00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:39.420 Like she murders talk. 650 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.480 I've got 6 inches of it right behind you if you want that. 651 00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:44.279 She's terrifying. 652 00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:45.299 It's not my line. 653 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:50.400 She is really frightening and but she needs to play it in such a 654 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.640 way that we think she's just a Draster's way, you know, lady in 655 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:58.559 waiting and so that her total fabulous evilness at the end comes 656 00:28:58.559 --> 00:28:59.819 as a complete surprise. 657 00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:01.200 And she's got a face for it. 658 00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:02.640 She does. 659 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:07.319 But she's the one who whose behaviour that threatens to destroy 660 00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:07.680 the planet. 661 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:09.059 I mean, Adraster. 662 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.220 You know, is dead. 663 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:14.640 It was her mistake that sent the attack from Typhonus in the 1st 664 00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:15.119 place. 665 00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:19.200 But the person who's preventing them from stopping it is Karela. 666 00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:20.700 She's happy to destroy the planet. 667 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:22.319 And she's not there for wealth. 668 00:29:22.380 --> 00:29:23.220 She just left power. 669 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.019 Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. 670 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.720 Yeah, you know, if it was something else other than metal. 671 00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.960 Yeah, fine. stuff about that, yeah, she just wants power. 672 00:29:31.019 --> 00:29:33.480 And you know, the power to destroy the world. 673 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.599 We saw it with Professor Zarov, you know, think of the achieve 674 00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:40.200 Darov. and Sutek. 675 00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:44.519 You know, it doesn't matter if you can't do anything practical 676 00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:45.000 with it. 677 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.299 Or if you're just a cat, you still want to destroy the world. 678 00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:49.920 And that's the point, isn't it? 679 00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:52.079 There are many different forms of power, but it all comes back to 680 00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:55.440 clinching onto that which cannot be possessed. 681 00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:58.200 Because it doesn't really exist. 682 00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:00.960 All that exists is the life of the mind. 683 00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:03.720 It's your own position in the world as you choose to be. 684 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:09.119 I would like to say that I think this is a really intelligent 685 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:10.619 science fiction script. 686 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:13.619 Like, obviously, the science in the last episode bonkers and, you 687 00:30:13.619 --> 00:30:16.980 know, adding stuff to a star should increase its math rather than 688 00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:17.700 decrease it, whatever. 689 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:24.480 But what I love about it is it gives us an alien who is so 690 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:30.720 different that it has no way to communicate via speech by itself. 691 00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:33.599 It needs to use other people's voices, which is a fascinating 692 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:33.960 idea. 693 00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:41.039 It gives us some the concept of the scarcity that we were living 694 00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:41.700 within our world. 695 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.839 As you said, Richard, taken to a bonkers extreme to use your 696 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:47.099 description as well. 697 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:51.599 And, you know, we we're made to pity Arato for 3 episodes. 698 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.680 And then in episode four, He just like, well, thanks for freeing 699 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:55.920 me. 700 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:57.660 This planet's about to explode. 701 00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:59.880 I'll be off. 702 00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:03.059 You know, and so he has this weird morality. 703 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:06.059 Do we pity him for 3 episodes, though? 704 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.819 Don't we think he's a terrifying murderous monster for the 1st 705 00:31:08.819 --> 00:31:09.599 one? 706 00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:10.380 And why isn't he? 707 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.900 Because if he's that intelligent, maybe he's all brain space. 708 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:15.059 Would he not have worked out if you're trying to talk to these 709 00:31:15.059 --> 00:31:17.640 moral philosophers that they keep chucking down the pit? 710 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:21.000 If you roll over and get a bit too close, they go squishy and they 711 00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:21.240 die. 712 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:23.759 I think he was just bored and cross and we're quite happy to kill 713 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:24.180 them all. 714 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.400 He does kill he does kill a draster. 715 00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:28.920 Yeah, well, he does say after... 716 00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.680 I think it's Romona chastises him for eating people. 717 00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:33.539 He's like, well, I didn't have anything else. 718 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:36.359 It's kind of like a sore film. 719 00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:40.859 Speaking of a sore film, it's very kind of you to say that this 720 00:31:40.859 --> 00:31:44.220 was clever and concept science fiction, and I think it certainly 721 00:31:44.220 --> 00:31:46.559 had been in the 30s when it was 1st written. 722 00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:50.819 But this is mostly taking, and this is one of the things we didn't 723 00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:54.900 have this in the 70s, but Britain had Star Trek over and over and 724 00:31:54.900 --> 00:31:55.440 over again. 725 00:31:55.500 --> 00:31:59.339 And the BBC didn't quite get that Doctor Who and Star Trek can't 726 00:31:59.339 --> 00:32:01.200 be positioned one against the other. 727 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.619 Then the BBC thought that they were the same, but the viewer and 728 00:32:04.619 --> 00:32:06.779 the certainly the production team knew better. 729 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:10.319 This is a piss take of an episode called Devil in the Dark, that 730 00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:13.440 you remember from, I think, season episode 25, Not that I would 731 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:13.980 know these things. 732 00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:18.660 Where it's the water, hoarder, which is a big rock sentient rock. 733 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:23.279 And even writes on the wall, I kill no, or I do not kill, and 734 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:26.940 there's, you know, instead of a mind meld with Spock, you have the 735 00:32:26.940 --> 00:32:30.779 shield, but it's that story, but it takes the piss because whereas 736 00:32:30.779 --> 00:32:35.099 that is about, you know, the Star Trek universe of just reduced 737 00:32:35.099 --> 00:32:38.460 military intelligence contradiction in terms with the doctor. 738 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:41.759 This is actually about the creative individual coming in and 739 00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.859 turning over. 740 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:46.500 No, this is definitely a piss take on Star Trek. 741 00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:51.720 I mean, it has the political thing that the Star Trek of that 742 00:32:51.720 --> 00:32:53.819 period doesn't explicitly have. 743 00:32:53.880 --> 00:32:58.140 I think, you know, original Star Trek, much as we love it, isn't 744 00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:02.700 sending the political message that it thinks it is. sending a 745 00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:04.619 racial mess, more of a social message. 746 00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:06.720 Yeah, it's still very much about military might. 747 00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:07.259 Well, that's right. 748 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:08.579 And American imperialism and stuff. 749 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:13.079 And it, um, but it's, you know, like it's well-intentioned. 750 00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:18.960 And I guess the point of devil in the dark is that we have moral 751 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:22.619 obligations to things that we can't even imagine we do. 752 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:27.420 You know, once we discover the hoarder is sentient, it's got 753 00:33:27.420 --> 00:33:31.200 children, it cares about its children, it's distressed for that 754 00:33:31.200 --> 00:33:32.220 reason. 755 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:36.420 It's enough like us that we now have a moral obligation to it, even 756 00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:39.900 though it's a big rock eating, blobby rock thing. 757 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:41.039 It's still like us. 758 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:42.900 Yeah, it is a duna, isn't it? 759 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.660 It's like that thing that attacks them in Claus Vaxos. 760 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:48.420 Yeah, whereas Doctor Who's allowed to have aliens, even other 761 00:33:48.420 --> 00:33:52.259 humanoids are completely different from us, but that's also okay. 762 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:53.099 Yeah. 763 00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:57.180 One thing I have noticed that David Fisher tends to do in his 764 00:33:57.180 --> 00:34:01.019 scripts, and we'll see it again next year, is that he's one of 765 00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:02.940 Doctor Who's best world builders. 766 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.319 You know, stones of blood, he doesn't just do the Bob Baker and 767 00:34:07.319 --> 00:34:09.539 Dave Martin thing of, oh, we're a modern day earth. 768 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:11.039 There's a nuclear power station. 769 00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:11.639 Let set it there. 770 00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:12.119 Yeah. 771 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:13.800 Yeah, stones of blood. 772 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:17.579 He sort of says, oh, okay, we'll set it in this stone circle. 773 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.039 Well, what happened in this stone circle 2000 years ago? 774 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.260 Let's look, that's our story. 775 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.940 Androids Atara. 776 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.380 What happened 200 years ago? 777 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.360 That's the fallout of our story. 778 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:28.980 Creature from the pit. 779 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.159 This creature has come here 20 years ago and this planet has been 780 00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:33.360 like this for 50 years. 781 00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:35.099 And then, of course, Leisure Hive. 782 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:38.880 We had this war here and it was horrible and now a 100 years later 783 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:40.380 the species is almost dead. 784 00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:43.920 A lot of doctor writers don't put that kind of thought. 785 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:49.800 I mean, Chris Boucher comes to mind as one who does, but Holmes 786 00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:50.280 does as well. 787 00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:55.139 Holmes tends to create worlds where you think there's more going 788 00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:56.820 on outside the frame. 789 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.699 But most Doctor Who Riders in the classic series. 790 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:00.659 I'm very immediate. 791 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:04.559 Like this is the story we're telling now. you know, let's say the 792 00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:05.280 dominators. 793 00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:08.280 We might hear that, oh yes, we gave up on more centuries ago. 794 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:09.659 But that's pretty much it. 795 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:10.980 Terry Nation. 796 00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:12.239 Oh yeah, there was a war here. 797 00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:16.139 And yeah, that's a creature there from the war. 798 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:20.519 You know, it's David Fisher has seems to have this thing about the 799 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:24.179 past directly influencing the present. 800 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:27.539 Which we don't see a lot of. 801 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:31.559 I think he may, he's definitely, as I've said before, Android 802 00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:33.900 Atara is my favourite of who story, he may well be my favourite 803 00:35:33.900 --> 00:35:36.360 classic writer, and it's a shame that this is his 2nd last 804 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:36.719 script. 805 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.099 He is very good. 806 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:38.639 And he's funny. 807 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:41.280 He tends to be funny as well, and that's going to be interesting 808 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:44.400 next year when the war on funny begins. 809 00:35:58.139 --> 00:36:02.219 That's all the time we have on the planet of chloros, dear 810 00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:06.420 listener, but we're warming up our CET machines in preparation for 811 00:36:06.420 --> 00:36:07.980 Nightmare of Eden next week. 812 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:11.400 Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com 813 00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:14.760 flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast 814 00:36:14.760 --> 00:36:15.659 on Twitter. 815 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.780 Please do share and comment on this. 816 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.000 It's the only way that new people find out about us. 817 00:36:21.059 --> 00:36:26.039 And also, please check out bondfinger.com where we have a variety 818 00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:29.760 of Sean Connery commentaries and a commentary on David Nevin's 819 00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:30.840 Casino Royale. 820 00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:34.500 Gentlemen, I do want to finish off by just saying, as I mentioned 821 00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:36.539 early, this is our last Welsh watch. 822 00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:40.380 Thank you, Terry, wherever you are now. 823 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:43.559 We've really enjoyed having you on the program and yeah, I think 824 00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:46.800 it's going to be a slightly less fun place without you. 825 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.219 But listeners, thank you very much for listening and good night. 826 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:51.119 Good night. 827 00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:51.599 Good night. 828 00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:57.780 That was flight to entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones 829 00:36:57.780 --> 00:36:59.159 and Richard Stone. 830 00:36:59.219 --> 00:37:03.840 This episode, There Shall Be No Fire, was recording on the 6th of 831 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.039 December, 2015. 832 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:09.780 The next episode will be released on February 14th, 2016 833 00:37:09.780 --> 00:37:13.980 approximately 159 odds from... now. 834 00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:23.280 Creature from the pit, 6th of December. 835 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:25.559 What's that look? 836 00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:27.900 It's creature from Tip Pit. 837 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:29.159 From Tip Pit. 838 00:37:29.219 --> 00:37:30.599 Stop it. 839 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.599 Ooh, aye, we got a tactonian down pet. 840 00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:38.579 Hmm, are you doing the accent? 841 00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:41.699 Sorry, I forgot to cleanse. 842 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.119 And release, yes. 843 00:37:45.539 --> 00:37:48.900 I don't know what I'm gonna do with this polystyrene. 844 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:51.480 What am I gonna do with all this points? 845 00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:53.519 Build them in myself? 846 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:55.320 Oh, I'm gonna build. 847 00:37:55.380 --> 00:38:01.079 No, no, I think I'm gonna build the Excelon City and then just 848 00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:02.519 like pour ass it all over. 849 00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:03.780 Oh, it works too. 850 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:05.400 You just need turpentine. 851 00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:09.300 Nail polish remover. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. 852 00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:12.900 You could grind it up and make your very own reboss streetscape. 853 00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:16.380 That's staying in as well, isn't it? 854 00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:17.639 Oh, pirate planet cities. 855 00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:18.900 Yeah, planet villages. 856 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:22.139 Save it, we'll do a blue Peter style video.