WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:27:54 1 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:36.659 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast where we have such a way with words. 2 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:37.920 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:38.880 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:38.939 --> 00:00:39.479 I'm Richard. 5 00:00:39.539 --> 00:00:39.780 Hi. 6 00:00:41.039 --> 00:00:49.979 We're not off to play all day in our little green cathedral, but very close to it, as we call it the creature from the pit. 7 00:00:56.039 --> 00:01:01.500 Right, Richard, it's Eileen Way, it's Myra Francis, and it's all yours. 8 00:01:01.560 --> 00:01:04.200 It's it's all everybody's. 9 00:01:04.260 --> 00:01:07.079 Is this the greatest Doctor Who story ever made? 10 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.780 I know you want to say this. 11 00:01:09.840 --> 00:01:11.760 This was one of the ones as Todd has said before. 12 00:01:11.819 --> 00:01:15.900 This is one of the ones that had to that came wrapped in plastic and had remained wrapped in plastic. 13 00:01:15.959 --> 00:01:19.379 I had to unseal it from its feroic tomb last night. 14 00:01:19.500 --> 00:01:23.219 And again, I only just watched it and it's pretty damn good. 15 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:24.299 It is good. 16 00:01:24.299 --> 00:01:26.340 It's pretty damn good. funnier than I remember. 17 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:33.299 Let's begin before the beginning where we were with this... from the last point. 18 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:35.519 What is this thing and where is it coming from? 19 00:01:35.579 --> 00:01:37.260 Okay, we're on a jungle of blah, blah. 20 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:38.819 And there's lots of other science fiction stuff. 21 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:40.980 There's green living things and it's all a set. 22 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:42.239 Cozzies are great. 23 00:01:42.299 --> 00:01:47.219 There's reasons that some of this really, really works and they're all called Eileen Way. 24 00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:49.019 And yeah, my Maya's pretty good. 25 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:50.879 But how amazing is Carella? 26 00:01:50.939 --> 00:01:53.939 She does serious single note. 27 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.219 I'm not corpsing. 28 00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:57.840 I really believe in this performance. 29 00:01:57.900 --> 00:02:05.700 It's like we've got Billy back on set because I, can you tell the difference between Eileen Way and William Hartler wasn't a very tall actor. 30 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.039 Wasn't very social in the same room, did you? 31 00:02:08.099 --> 00:02:12.060 Can we just remind people who Eileen Way is... 32 00:02:12.180 --> 00:02:23.699 Eileen Way, apart from a cat whisperer, you know, as I've mentioned before, she was the woman during this shooting of this that brought in a cassette tape of her cat singing and she would sing with her cats and she gave it to Tom. 33 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:26.699 So Tom loved her forever. because of that. 34 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.780 But she started off as old mother in tribe of gum. whatever we call that thing. 35 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:48.719 There shall be no fire, but she's actually even more fabulous for being that rather naughty lady in the in the 2nd Dalek film, who cottages, cruelly cottages, and sells Roberta Toby for some cans of Heinz baked beans. 36 00:02:48.780 --> 00:02:49.500 And you know what? 37 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:51.840 I hope she got some change as well. 38 00:02:54.180 --> 00:03:03.900 Here we have, the doctor responding to a distress signal by Romana finding an egg timer and sticking it on the console, along with a lovely box of stuff. 39 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:12.539 From the 4th box of room full of stuff, including bits of the hyperspace gate generator from Stones of Blood. 40 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:13.139 Did you notice that? 41 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:13.919 Yes, I did. 42 00:03:13.979 --> 00:03:15.240 Bits of that sticking in the esky. 43 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:20.520 And it's the ball of string that he used to get Theseus out of the labyrinth. 44 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:21.180 And even better. 45 00:03:21.180 --> 00:03:23.039 Which will be referred to again. 46 00:03:23.099 --> 00:03:24.539 With a thank you note. 47 00:03:24.599 --> 00:03:30.599 And even better than that, the 1st and I think only biblical tie in reference with a drawbone of an ass. 48 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:31.919 Don't be a Philistine. 49 00:03:31.979 --> 00:03:32.520 That's right. 50 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:41.340 As the listener will no doubt know being biblical scholars like us all, that Samson apparently killed a 1000 Philistines with that said same jawbone. 51 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:45.539 Of course, it was all fun and games in the Old Testament, wasn't it, until a kiddie lost Jawbones. 52 00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:47.340 Until you lost both your eyes. 53 00:03:47.340 --> 00:03:48.780 That's right. 54 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:50.400 That's right. 55 00:03:50.460 --> 00:03:57.479 So, but it also starts off most importantly, picking up from where we were is that Time Lords dig Beatrix Potter. 56 00:03:57.539 --> 00:04:03.419 And more importantly, both have the time to read Beatrix Potter to the point that Romana has been what? 57 00:04:03.479 --> 00:04:14.759 It isn't long from season 16 to season 17, because the doctor quotes his age as being still in 760 or 750. 3 or 4 years. 58 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:17.339 Romana's rounding down these days. 59 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:18.000 She does. 60 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:18.600 Yeah, she goes. 61 00:04:18.660 --> 00:04:21.420 She said 140 to 125. 62 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:22.920 Well, you know, a girl can do that. 63 00:04:22.980 --> 00:04:27.720 But don't you think that's part of coding Romana as an aristocrat? 64 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:41.759 Because those things, the Beatrix Potter books are, you know, quintessentially part of that kind of aristocratic upbringing, they're the things that everyone who, you know, has read, who was brought up at a particular time in the mid-20th century. 65 00:04:41.819 --> 00:04:52.740 And the reason Roman has read them is not because they have them on Galafre or anything like that, but because she's, you know, a lovely, proper Poschberg. 66 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:53.399 Yes she really is. 67 00:04:53.459 --> 00:04:55.860 But it's also a very middle-class thing. 68 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.939 And yes, they're nodding to Mitford and war and that period. 69 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:06.720 But I think they're also saying that, well, to me, they're actually saying that time wants a bookish, time wants to live in books. 70 00:05:06.779 --> 00:05:13.319 This whole season is again about a life of mind internal as averse to a life of acquisition. 71 00:05:13.379 --> 00:05:20.819 We'll get it to the point at Charter where we have a book that's actually synicline on of the story and the point of power itself. 72 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:22.019 There is power in books. 73 00:05:22.139 --> 00:05:26.279 I think it also ties in with Lala's vision of the character. 74 00:05:26.339 --> 00:05:32.879 And that's not hugely prevalent in this story, of course, because this was the 1st story she recorded. 75 00:05:32.939 --> 00:05:40.560 It was still being written for Mary by one of Mary's great writers, David Fisher, because of course Mary has wonderful things to do in Stones of Blood and Androids of Tara. 76 00:05:40.620 --> 00:05:44.339 But I think the line can be read in 2 different ways. 77 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.240 It can be read in the Mary way of saying, oh, doctor, but Peter gets away. 78 00:05:48.300 --> 00:05:49.500 Don't you know? 79 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.540 Whereas the way Lala reads it is more how a child might react to saying, but it's okay. 80 00:05:54.660 --> 00:05:55.860 I've read this one. 81 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:57.300 I know what happens. 82 00:05:57.360 --> 00:05:58.079 Don't be silly. 83 00:05:58.139 --> 00:05:58.740 He's fine. 84 00:05:58.800 --> 00:05:59.699 Why are you so concerned? 85 00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:03.060 A child would react like that to a story they already know. 86 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:06.600 And I think that's Lala sort of bringing, bringing that already. 87 00:06:06.660 --> 00:06:10.680 You know, that childlike thing of, yeah, calm down. 88 00:06:10.740 --> 00:06:14.040 That's fine, Mum, you know, there's no actual monster under the bed, you know? 89 00:06:14.100 --> 00:06:18.060 So she hasn't bedded her performance down quite yet, though. 90 00:06:18.180 --> 00:06:20.819 No, no, and she talks about that on the commentary. 91 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:22.560 This is her 1st story. 92 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:24.899 Yeah, it's and it's also the 1st story four. 93 00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:27.300 David Rowley. 94 00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:29.160 He's really irritating, isn't he? 95 00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:31.199 He's sort of Aurac. 96 00:06:31.259 --> 00:06:32.220 It's canine. 97 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:33.120 Very much so. 98 00:06:33.180 --> 00:06:34.920 Actually, very high pitched. 99 00:06:34.980 --> 00:06:37.019 He's like Tampa. 100 00:06:37.079 --> 00:06:39.420 Yeah, incorrect master. 101 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:41.339 The transceiver is fully operative. 102 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.560 You know, it's a. am not made of tin. 103 00:06:43.620 --> 00:06:46.560 Oh, this is where he gets called a tin dog as well. 104 00:06:46.620 --> 00:06:47.459 Probably. 105 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:48.959 Point the dog against the rock. 106 00:06:49.379 --> 00:06:51.600 So he's very arch. 107 00:06:51.660 --> 00:06:53.100 He's doing a sort of Aurac thing. 108 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:55.980 He's much camper and much less cute. 109 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.819 Like, John Leeson does cute computer voice. 110 00:06:59.819 --> 00:07:05.399 Briarly's a little bit more sassy and a little bit more sarcastic and stuff. 111 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:22.860 Well, I think you're seeing the difference in performance as to the difference in this rehearsal setup where we had John Leeson crawling around on all 4s and being terribly engaging with the 2 leads, but David Brierly quickly realised you could just use any toy pram. 112 00:07:22.920 --> 00:07:26.819 So it's actually a toy perambulator, but it's pushed around during rehearsals. 113 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:28.139 Really? 114 00:07:28.139 --> 00:07:29.040 He's sitting in the sidewalk. 115 00:07:29.100 --> 00:07:30.120 Yeah, sitting in the sightseeing. 116 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:32.220 Just having a fag and just Yeah, a big catty. 117 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:32.819 Yeah, yeah. 118 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:35.459 I, you know, I quite like David Bryanley's performance. 119 00:07:35.519 --> 00:07:41.220 I did have I think I had 2 friends when I was a child who watched her as well. 120 00:07:41.939 --> 00:07:44.279 Not in general, Richard. 121 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.920 And one of them. 122 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:50.339 One of them was imaginary. 123 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:59.699 One of them was imaginary, and the one was a leaf. wouldn't watch a story with the wrong canine as he put it. 124 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:01.259 No, that's not the record. 125 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:08.279 Whereas as a child, I didn't particularly, I didn't particularly notice the difference in the voice. 126 00:08:08.399 --> 00:08:09.899 No, I didn't. 127 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:10.740 No, no. 128 00:08:10.800 --> 00:08:12.779 I think as adults, you know, it's very easy to tell. 129 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:17.339 Yeah, I didn't notice until he pointed out, and even then I didn't care. 130 00:08:17.399 --> 00:08:25.860 I think the 3 David Brierly stories are where we have the most memory of canine being a smart ass and being snooty. 131 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.500 I think he brought that to the role and John Leeson has carried that on. 132 00:08:28.620 --> 00:08:36.419 John Leeson's canine was a bit more petulant than snooty, like when he has some tantrum. 133 00:08:36.480 --> 00:08:41.340 Well, not exactly tantrums, but when he sulks when Leila tells him off and when Mary Tam tells him off. 134 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:48.720 And but yeah, John Leeson, as he played the role in, say, Sarah Jane adventures with the constant bitching with Mr. Smith. 135 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:50.519 That's David Brierly. 136 00:08:50.580 --> 00:08:51.720 That's what David Riley brought. 137 00:08:51.779 --> 00:08:54.360 So do we know why Leason's not in these stories? 138 00:08:54.419 --> 00:08:55.740 He just had enough. 139 00:08:55.799 --> 00:09:02.519 No, he was off to find and exploit lots of exciting opportunities that came from his exposure and Doctor Who. 140 00:09:02.580 --> 00:09:03.779 He'll be back soon. 141 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.500 Such as Mission to Destiny in Blake 7. 142 00:09:07.559 --> 00:09:08.220 Yeah, pretty much. 143 00:09:08.279 --> 00:09:13.799 It's an interesting correlation of canine with the Zeit cost of humour at the time. 144 00:09:13.860 --> 00:09:26.580 We had the cerebral self knowledge, but generosity of Douglas Adams, but Above and beyond that, the humour in Britain and in Australia at the time was actually very catty. 145 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:29.940 The spirit of the age was bitchy. 146 00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:32.220 Bitchy humour was the thing. 147 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:36.840 And you know, we look at it now and we think, well, that's kind of a bit wrong, simply because society has progressed. 148 00:09:36.899 --> 00:09:46.139 But it was all about the, um, It was all about the progression or the, the self-progression of the individual over everybody else. 149 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:55.919 And you see it in, it started with Python, which really lampooned that, but also kind of celebrated that John Cleese's perfect example of that, of his style and his tone. 150 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.840 The television series at the time, the soap operas, like dynasty that were about to come. 151 00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:09.840 But that catty tone, which you're pun intended, of the tin dog, is very much the period of the period of humour. 152 00:10:09.899 --> 00:10:15.120 So it couches really nicely with Adam's intention. 153 00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:19.379 And I would like to think David Fisher's as well. of where this season is going. 154 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:25.200 This, if you ever had any doubt, this story is about capitalism having gone bonkers. 155 00:10:25.980 --> 00:10:28.139 You have all these opportunities and what do you do? 156 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:29.820 You stick it down in the ground. 157 00:10:29.879 --> 00:10:33.360 You know, we could be talking about uranium. 158 00:10:33.419 --> 00:10:36.240 We could be talking about the exploitation of whatever else. 159 00:10:36.779 --> 00:10:40.379 The story is explicitly about the economy, isn't it? 160 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.139 Even to the point that it doesn't even bother using metaphor. 161 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:44.399 It's about British steel. 162 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:55.559 And it's about how the unions, I can't criticise them for it. we're locking down and saying, because imports from, it was actually Eastern block metals coming in. 163 00:10:55.620 --> 00:10:57.299 It was an inferior product, but it was cheaper. 164 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:01.320 Wages pretty much because inflation was going up so much. 165 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:07.259 We've seen how that affects the Doctor Who production schedule itself, but it was over and over again. 166 00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:11.340 But it was also affecting the pound, and to us over here, the dollar. 167 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:21.059 Also, the owners of British steel, or the people who were in charge, were actually giving themselves plain risers every year and knocking back hours and laying people off. 168 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:31.320 So, of course, there was this impasse, where metal was that metal was the point around which there were whole towns like Sheffield, where there was one industry for generations and generations, and that was steel. 169 00:11:31.379 --> 00:11:35.100 So this couldn't be more accurately about England. 170 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:43.379 The scientists of the '60s, noted here, have moved on to be the exploiters of the '70s, the ideas of technology freeing us. 171 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:52.740 And now, well, we're actually just using it to You seeing the beginnings of what we're seeing now with world finance, and world banking, and the pressure on the actual worker. 172 00:11:52.860 --> 00:11:53.759 Pressure. 173 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:56.879 Mind you, they never had as nice hats, did they? 174 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:57.960 as they're having this one. 175 00:11:58.019 --> 00:12:13.259 All these amazing What are these outfits that, like any oppressive regime and its final bands will wear a lot of black and a lot of capes, will see that in Nylon, but my goodness, can we mention the wolf weeds and the perhaps the huntsman? 176 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:14.580 The huntsman in those wolfweeds. 177 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:15.539 David Telfer. 178 00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:17.340 Does he make his own little outfit, do you think? 179 00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:19.559 Or do you think Madame Carella designed everything for everybody? 180 00:12:19.799 --> 00:12:21.779 rubber nodules. 181 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.519 They're the ones. 182 00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:25.740 The Ren and stinky rubber nodules. 183 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:26.100 Yeah. 184 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:33.059 You know, he probably didn't strike me in the way that he struck you two, but he has such an important role in the pool. 185 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:34.320 It ends up running the planet. 186 00:12:34.379 --> 00:12:35.460 Yeah, precisely. 187 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:49.559 And it is, what Adrast is doing is deliberately perpetuating scarcity so that she remains wealthy at the expense of everyone else in her society. 188 00:12:49.620 --> 00:12:53.159 And she gets away with that because the underclass. 189 00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:56.940 And I think this is the most unfortunate flaw in the thing. 190 00:12:57.000 --> 00:13:00.720 So you have the brigands or bandits. 191 00:13:00.779 --> 00:13:03.480 I can't remember what the dialogue calls on the bandits. 192 00:13:03.539 --> 00:13:08.639 And they're the underclass and their job is to steal stuff from the rich. 193 00:13:08.700 --> 00:13:18.779 But the scarcity benefits them as well, once they get successful, once they actually get their hands on some metal, the scarcity benefits them. 194 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.299 And we talked last week about fetishising objects beyond the... 195 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:25.679 We talked about Brenton's action figures. 196 00:13:25.799 --> 00:13:27.059 That's it. 197 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:28.440 That was essentially the context. 198 00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:30.899 But they start to fetishize metal. 199 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:37.740 You know, it's not something you can eat, you know, like none of the things that they make out of it are particularly useful. 200 00:13:39.179 --> 00:13:44.220 There is a little bit of talk about using metal tools to cultivate the planet or something like that. 201 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:49.500 But they just value it in itself because it's something rare. 202 00:13:49.559 --> 00:13:52.320 Not because it makes their lives any better. 203 00:13:52.379 --> 00:13:59.399 And so, so you've got both sides of the political equation, depending on this scarcity. 204 00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:05.580 And Torven and his men actually reject the idea of a deal with Erato. 205 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.159 And so does Eileen Wei, you know, very forcibly. 206 00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:11.220 She would prefer the planet to be destroyed. 207 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:16.620 She would risk the planet being destroyed, because she doesn't want to surrender her wealth. 208 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:21.120 The doctor gives her one line after address has been... 209 00:14:22.080 --> 00:14:24.539 How do you say subsumed by Erato? 210 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:30.179 There's really, no, we're avoiding the elephantine, a dumper in a room, a room. 211 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:30.539 Yes. 212 00:14:30.600 --> 00:14:31.379 Yeah. 213 00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.440 And she says, no, I would rather have the wealth and the power. 214 00:14:34.500 --> 00:14:36.179 And then the doctors, so be it. 215 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:44.700 So again, there's a serious moment where the doctor could actually, you know, gives them a chance to be free and to liberate and think for themselves, but they choose not to take it. 216 00:14:44.759 --> 00:14:46.379 And you know what? 217 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.519 In a way, this story makes me angry. 218 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:55.080 And it doesn't make me angry in the way that underworld makes me angry that it's an opportunity. 219 00:14:55.139 --> 00:15:00.299 It makes me angry because why are all these things still relevant? 220 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:01.200 You know? 221 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.039 That's a good question. 222 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:06.720 Why didn't Creature from the Pit solve this issue once and for all? 223 00:15:06.779 --> 00:15:07.740 You know what, you know what I mean? 224 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:11.460 We are still, we are still living in a scarcity-based thing. more so now. 225 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:13.559 Despite our environmental problems. 226 00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:16.500 We have the power to start solving our environmental problems. 227 00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:20.820 We have the ability to feed and clothe everyone on the planet. 228 00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:25.320 We have the ability to provide everyone with free or cheap power and we don't do it. 229 00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:25.620 Why? 230 00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:28.139 Because the world is run by Adrasters. 231 00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:29.340 Yeah, exactly. 232 00:15:29.399 --> 00:15:30.179 Well, this is the point. 233 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.679 Why this story is great. 234 00:15:31.740 --> 00:15:35.639 Literacy, and therefore irony, build a civilised society. 235 00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:39.299 And what is erata but the muse of epic poetry? 236 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.159 What is he bringing? 237 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:43.980 Words, ideas, thoughts. 238 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.059 Yeah. 239 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:47.159 Yeah, I always wondered why he's called... 240 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.179 And massive willies. 241 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.220 Yeah, so can we talk about that? 242 00:15:50.279 --> 00:15:53.340 There's a whole documentary on the on the DVD. 243 00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:57.419 Yeah, full of people just apologising for how... 244 00:15:57.480 --> 00:15:58.799 I don't think he's crap at all. 245 00:15:58.860 --> 00:16:00.000 I thought it was great at the time. 246 00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:05.580 And it's probably the only alien to receive a blowey from a doctor. 247 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:07.980 I can't put it any other way. 248 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:10.200 They should have just cut the appendages off. 249 00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:12.000 I'm sorry. 250 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:14.519 Every listener crosses their legs. 251 00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:17.039 Yeah, he's meant to be a giant brain. 252 00:16:17.100 --> 00:16:18.120 Don't give him appendages. 253 00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:19.139 Just the blob is great. 254 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:24.000 And the CSO work with Tom against the gigantic blob in the huge cavern? 255 00:16:24.059 --> 00:16:25.139 That looks wonderful. 256 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:26.399 There's nothing wrong with it. 257 00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:30.120 And then you give him these 2 piffly little cock arms. 258 00:16:30.179 --> 00:16:31.860 They're crazy, aren't they? 259 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.620 And there are other things about the production that are really good. 260 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:35.879 As we said, the sets are great. 261 00:16:35.940 --> 00:16:46.679 The decision to shoot the exteriors, the forest exteriors, studio scenes on film really pays off. so much better than Eden will next time. 262 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:48.360 This is Christopher Barry, isn't it? 263 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:49.679 Yeah, Christopher is back to the last one. 264 00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:54.360 He puts a lot of time and effort and he's done his pros and his cons are both in evidence here. 265 00:16:54.419 --> 00:16:57.779 Puts a lot of effort into getting the look of it right. 266 00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:59.460 So, as you say, the sets are right. 267 00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:03.120 That lovely moment of the shell in the 1st episode, some love and model work. 268 00:17:03.179 --> 00:17:09.960 He's the one that demanded there were 3 reshoots of the Erato models and 2 shoots at the space scenes. 269 00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:13.019 Matt Irvine was dragged across Coles, literally. 270 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:15.900 They do that kind of thing in the BBC for all of that stuff that was going wrong. 271 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.980 It had another, it's now been put on, oh, it's the space billy of doom. 272 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:26.400 Well, actually, no, it was that's just a really convenient thing on peg on which to hang your complaints. 273 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:29.039 Yeah, you see what I did there? 274 00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:36.900 But the real problem was that, you know, you could see the string on the TARDIS model in space in the 1st time. 275 00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:37.920 This is what I've said before. 276 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:45.119 Matt Irvine is a lovely, charming bloke, and further on now, you know, a lot of fun, but he's not a designer and he's not a visual guy. 277 00:17:45.180 --> 00:17:49.319 He likes making things, but I never thought his designs were up there. 278 00:17:49.380 --> 00:17:51.960 And this is the point where it all comes home for him. 279 00:17:52.019 --> 00:17:54.000 He almost loses his job. 280 00:17:54.599 --> 00:17:58.559 And yeah, there were 3 reshoots of the models. 281 00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:02.940 Be that as it may, it's ultimately the directors comes back onto the director. 282 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:07.680 I mean, a lot of Christopher Berry spent a lot of time trying to get all of that rights and all the rest of it. 283 00:18:07.740 --> 00:18:09.779 But again, timing malfunction. 284 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:14.640 All the stuff that should be good, he just rushes in the last episode. 285 00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:18.299 The thing is that the countdown 24 hours till the Dumo. 286 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:19.019 That's the script. 287 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:29.160 But there's all these things that should be interesting and could actually propel a narrative and we just get episode 3 of padding and we get episode 4 all squished up into a little box in the end. 288 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:32.220 I mean, I think that that bit at the end is boring. 289 00:18:32.339 --> 00:18:35.519 You know, the actual resolution and it makes no sense. 290 00:18:35.579 --> 00:18:39.660 So, you know, there's an approaching neutron star and that's quite good. 291 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:45.420 The destruction of the world is going to be the inevitable consequence of the greed of a draster that works. 292 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:48.480 But then there's 15 minutes after she's... 293 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:49.859 Yeah, just wandering about. 294 00:18:49.920 --> 00:18:51.839 Well, and in the Tartar set. 295 00:18:51.900 --> 00:18:59.099 And, you know, they have this charming idea that they think they can reduce the neutron stars' gravity by weaving a big aluminium shell around it. 296 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.420 But Tim Foil hunt on it. 297 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:02.039 Presumably will weigh something. 298 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.119 Do you know what I mean? 299 00:19:03.180 --> 00:19:05.519 It sounds like a shore fire wave increasing its gravity. 300 00:19:05.579 --> 00:19:08.279 But again, no one on this show ever knows how gravity works. 301 00:19:08.339 --> 00:19:11.279 There's something coming in and it looks a little bit stranger than usual. 302 00:19:11.339 --> 00:19:12.900 Oh, it's wrapped in tinfoil. 303 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.559 It's Todd. 304 00:19:15.359 --> 00:19:16.980 You know what? 305 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:18.960 I quite like Creature from the Pit. 306 00:19:19.079 --> 00:19:25.559 I like Carella, the wolf weeds, Adraster, even though she's a bit shrill towards the end of her life. 307 00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:29.099 And I think Geoffrey Bowden's performance is a tour de force. 308 00:19:29.220 --> 00:19:35.279 But since I've actually activated the randomiser, there are other elements of this story, that just working against it. 309 00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:40.140 I mean, canine and Romana are not quite themselves, but with good reason. 310 00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.920 And, guys, what were they thinking with all the appendages of Arato? 311 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:44.640 I'll never know. 312 00:19:44.700 --> 00:19:49.740 But I guess the thing that undermines, I think, the whole story is the robbers. 313 00:19:49.740 --> 00:19:52.500 They're, like, out of a Monty Python sketch. 314 00:19:52.559 --> 00:19:55.619 In fact, it all becomes a bit of a nightmare. 315 00:19:55.680 --> 00:19:58.380 Oh, wait, that's next. 316 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:02.940 We've got to the year to the room. 317 00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:03.720 Bacon now, haven't we? 318 00:20:03.779 --> 00:20:05.880 Yeah, yeah, the... 319 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:07.920 The vegan thing is really terrible. 320 00:20:07.980 --> 00:20:09.059 Yeah, yeah. 321 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:18.660 We were talking about this, Nathan and I and I were saying that, you know, there's a point I would counter that with, is that Mel Brooks was an afficionado of this. 322 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:22.619 If the listener remembers young Frankenstein and blazing saddellers and all the rest of it. 323 00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:29.640 And he's been criticised by other members in the in the theatre group as being, why do you always year it up? 324 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:32.400 Why do you always make the Jew, the Joker in the Room? 325 00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:35.880 And he said, because of their laughing at us, they're not hating us. 326 00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:40.920 And he said, also, my villains are even more laughable and played by Jews. 327 00:20:40.980 --> 00:20:43.380 So he would cast his Nazis. 328 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:48.480 Wonder Woman, the 1st series of Wonder Woman did the same thing and used Mel Brooks's character actors as their nasties. 329 00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:49.319 I'm sure I've said that before. 330 00:20:49.380 --> 00:21:12.119 But no, his argument was that if you make light of everything, if you make it a point of humour, there is the repose after laughter, of the pause after laughter, when the air is expelled, where you can then receive the information, if you like, where you then receive the information as stable and measured, a position as possible, and you've got rid of the emotion. 331 00:21:12.180 --> 00:21:14.460 So you've got rid of the anger as well as with the laughter. 332 00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.200 He thought about this that carefully. 333 00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:24.480 The difference is that Mel Brooks, being Jewish, is allowed to do comedy Jews, but other people are... 334 00:21:24.599 --> 00:21:25.259 Well, this is the thing. 335 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:26.519 I don't know about that actually. 336 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:29.759 Well, I think, you know, Fagan is... 337 00:21:29.759 --> 00:21:38.279 But I deplorable character and it undermines the character in a way because he's immediately coded as stupid and greedy. 338 00:21:38.339 --> 00:21:48.180 And it should be a discovery that he is stupid and greedy, that he is willing to sacrifice these people for exactly the same reason as Adraster will. 339 00:21:48.299 --> 00:21:57.059 I don't think that comedic model necessarily applies in this narrative in this story, for the similar reason, and that it's an add on. 340 00:21:57.180 --> 00:22:00.599 It's a distress signal stuck onto the console of the TARDIS. 341 00:22:00.660 --> 00:22:01.740 This is not part of the story. 342 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.160 This is a comedy Jew put in for the sake of being a comedy Jew. 343 00:22:05.220 --> 00:22:09.779 It's not growing or contributing to anything. 344 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.640 It's just that that's a funny character. 345 00:22:11.700 --> 00:22:14.819 And so if you'd been in blackface or yellowface, it wouldn't have made much difference. 346 00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.940 We're talking about money, we're talking about usury and acquisitiveness. 347 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:19.380 So therefore we use a Jew. 348 00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.059 I think it's really unfortunate. 349 00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:26.579 And I think it's, I actually agree that in this context, Christopher Barry kind of got it wrong. 350 00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:27.599 Yeah, yeah, no. 351 00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:28.799 It does. 352 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:29.579 Is it funny, though? 353 00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:30.720 No, it's not. 354 00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:32.400 That's the other thing too. 355 00:22:32.460 --> 00:22:33.539 He's not that funny. 356 00:22:33.660 --> 00:22:39.420 And it is the thing that Douglas has complained about a lot of times where people think, well, there are jokes in this. 357 00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:41.279 There are brilliant jokes in this script. 358 00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:42.059 They're great. 359 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:43.440 David Fisher is really funny. 360 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:46.440 He's been fit vetted by Douglas Adams. 361 00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.180 They're some really good jokes here. 362 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:55.259 But whoever plays Torven, I can't remember his name, has looked at the script, seen those jokes and decided to be silly. 363 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.660 The way that Louis Fiander will next week. 364 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.599 And it spoils it, I think. 365 00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:03.119 But it's Chris Barry's. choice. 366 00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:05.640 The scripts just say, you know, they're huge. 367 00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:08.640 They just say hairy buggers. excuse us. 368 00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:11.519 They seem to cast them as bacon, yeah. 369 00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:17.819 I do have to wonder about that, though, because his offsiders, the main 2 of whom are called Idu and Ainu. 370 00:23:17.880 --> 00:23:24.299 His 2 offsiders aren't ridiculous and over the top, you know, and... stupid. 371 00:23:24.359 --> 00:23:25.019 There is some comedy. 372 00:23:25.079 --> 00:23:29.279 They do get to do some jokes, but they don't do this gross stereotype. 373 00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:29.880 Yeah, exactly. 374 00:23:29.940 --> 00:23:39.599 And the through line that David Fisher writes in there is that those 2 kind of slowly start to realise... actually, Torpen's pretty much as bad as a dress. 375 00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:42.480 Yeah, he hasn't actually killed anyone, but he's as greedy and whatnot. 376 00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:43.740 Maybe we shouldn't be like that. 377 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:49.200 And yeah, I think that message is kind of spoiled with how OTT Tourbon is. 378 00:23:49.259 --> 00:23:55.980 Torden should have been a sort of slightly knockabout, laddish kind of character with a mean streak. 379 00:23:56.220 --> 00:24:01.980 He needs to be a revolutionary, and then we discover that he's operating by the same rules as a Draft Star. 380 00:24:02.099 --> 00:24:04.619 Maybe they don't have room for the complexity of that. 381 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:11.099 I would have liked that subtlety, but I think that they're all seeing Williams and Douglas Adams do have a message here. 382 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:25.259 And it is that all forms of usury and acquisitiveness, unless they're of intellect and the generosity of self-development, which does go outwards, is by its own nature corrupting and destructive of society. 383 00:24:25.319 --> 00:24:26.819 Well, I mean, that's right. 384 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:31.079 These people prioritise possession of things over their own well-being. 385 00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:32.880 And rich and poor are just as guilty. 386 00:24:32.940 --> 00:24:37.859 You know, a dresser is morally worse than Torven because she has power. 387 00:24:37.920 --> 00:24:45.720 But, But yeah, the moment he's he's still operating by the same rules and same priorities that she is. 388 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.480 There's a scene early on where Adraster is grilling 2 of her engineers. 389 00:24:52.259 --> 00:24:54.180 Welsh watch. 390 00:24:54.240 --> 00:24:55.079 Welsh watch. 391 00:24:55.140 --> 00:25:00.599 Yes, it's the last appearance of Terry Walsh in the classic series as Doran and he gets some dialogue. 392 00:25:00.660 --> 00:25:05.400 And also one of her engineers, I think it's the engineer, she throws in the pit. 393 00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:12.420 Holland is played by Maurice Barry. director of tomb of the side of it. 394 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:13.799 So we have... 395 00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.019 And a more fitting fate, you could have come up. 396 00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.500 Yes, I wanted to throw him in a pizza, actually, after watching team of the sign of me. 397 00:25:19.559 --> 00:25:25.319 So we have the director of the Daleks, throwing the director of 2 of the Sidemen. 398 00:25:25.380 --> 00:25:27.240 In the pit. 399 00:25:28.019 --> 00:25:30.900 Ah, Jeffrey Balden. 400 00:25:30.900 --> 00:25:33.359 As Organon. 401 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.500 Or no organ, if you want to. 402 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.339 So I didn't really watch Cat Weasel, I have to say. 403 00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:43.859 I think I watched the final series, maybe. 404 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.440 Is that the one where he's on the search for like the 13th? 405 00:25:46.500 --> 00:25:52.140 Yeah, to the Manor Bourne series where they think that you can stick one series into another, although it was before all of that. 406 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:53.519 The 1st series is sublime. 407 00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:55.259 Really perfect. 408 00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.599 And so this was a children's television program. 409 00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:00.359 And then we played television 69 to 70. 410 00:26:00.539 --> 00:26:03.119 He played a wizard from... 900, yes. 411 00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:09.059 Well, from, you know, from 1066, who's transported to 1969. 412 00:26:09.299 --> 00:26:10.019 Yeah. 413 00:26:10.019 --> 00:26:13.380 And was he considered at some point a possible doctor? 414 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:23.700 He was actually on Verity's quite long list of doctors way back in the day, but he didn't want to get locked into anything in the same way that Crowden did for 3 years. 415 00:26:23.940 --> 00:26:27.119 Although it was 18 episodes, though, words. 416 00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:28.140 I don't know where that was coming from. 417 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:31.200 He's superb, although he kind of always plays his same part. 418 00:26:31.259 --> 00:26:35.940 The thing is, verity was offering contracts for 52 weeks and she wasn't telling anyone. 419 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:36.960 She only had 13. 420 00:26:37.500 --> 00:26:40.559 You know, she wanted to be able to turn around and say to the BBC. 421 00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:41.819 Oh, well we might as well carry on. 422 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.759 I've got all these actors Actors. 423 00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:46.140 God, he's good. 424 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:47.400 He is really good. 425 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:48.420 So good with Tom. 426 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:51.240 It's these little moments that make this season work. 427 00:26:51.299 --> 00:26:56.759 Well, again, it's like you have Julian Glover and Tom, you get Jeffrey Balden and Tom and the 2 of them are wonderful. 428 00:26:56.819 --> 00:27:03.539 That thing where Tom goes up to him and sort of claps his arm around him and says, you know, Sorry, old chap. 429 00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:12.180 I particularly like, um, The past explained the future foretold, the present apologised for. 430 00:27:12.240 --> 00:27:13.619 It's so well developed. 431 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:14.519 Delivered, isn't it? 432 00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:15.240 It's terrific. 433 00:27:15.299 --> 00:27:20.099 And it is great, Douglas Adams dialogue, you know, and he's metering the whole thing. 434 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:26.640 Well, I love the line about lady Adrastus throwing the ambassador down the pit and throwing astrologers at him. 435 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:32.160 You do see Jeffrey bailed in in the background, just sort of smashing at that. 436 00:27:32.220 --> 00:27:34.019 Hey, I'm right here. 437 00:27:35.099 --> 00:27:37.859 It is such a strong cast, isn't it? 438 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:39.240 Fantastic. 439 00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:46.079 You know, I really think that Torven as played by John Bryant's. 440 00:27:46.140 --> 00:27:48.960 He is the only weak link, in my opinion. 441 00:27:49.019 --> 00:27:53.099 I think a draster is spectacularly good, isn't she? 442 00:27:53.160 --> 00:28:03.720 She really, actually, she could, you could say, well, I mean, she eats the entire room, but Arlingway definitely, I wouldn't say underplays it, but plays it as it needs to be. plays it straight. 443 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.420 Unique. admirer balances off that. 444 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.299 It could so easily have been even more so. 445 00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.859 And it is, but it's nicely done. 446 00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.440 It's not too, it's too much, but it's not too much. 447 00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:22.740 When Doctor Who has more than one villain, normally at the end of the story, you have to dispatch. 448 00:28:23.220 --> 00:28:24.359 Well, in fact, there's no rule. 449 00:28:24.420 --> 00:28:29.940 Sometimes you dispatch them in order of scariness and sometimes you dispatch them in decreasing order of scariness. 450 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.359 And I think Lady Adraster looks like she's the villain all the way through. 451 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.079 But Karela is seen on camera murdering someone. 452 00:28:37.140 --> 00:28:38.279 Do you know what I mean? 453 00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:39.420 Like she murders talk. 454 00:28:39.480 --> 00:28:42.480 I've got 6 inches of it right behind you if you want that. 455 00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:44.279 She's terrifying. 456 00:28:44.339 --> 00:28:45.299 It's not my line. 457 00:28:45.779 --> 00:28:59.819 She is really frightening and but she needs to play it in such a way that we think she's just a Draster's way, you know, lady in waiting and so that her total fabulous evilness at the end comes as a complete surprise. 458 00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:01.200 And she's got a face for it. 459 00:29:01.259 --> 00:29:02.640 She does. 460 00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:07.680 But she's the one who whose behaviour that threatens to destroy the planet. 461 00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:09.059 I mean, Adraster. 462 00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.220 You know, is dead. 463 00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.119 It was her mistake that sent the attack from Typhonus in the 1st place. 464 00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:19.200 But the person who's preventing them from stopping it is Karela. 465 00:29:19.259 --> 00:29:20.700 She's happy to destroy the planet. 466 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:22.319 And she's not there for wealth. 467 00:29:22.380 --> 00:29:23.220 She just left power. 468 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:25.019 Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. 469 00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:27.720 Yeah, you know, if it was something else other than metal. 470 00:29:27.779 --> 00:29:30.960 Yeah, fine. stuff about that, yeah, she just wants power. 471 00:29:31.019 --> 00:29:33.480 And you know, the power to destroy the world. 472 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:40.200 We saw it with Professor Zarov, you know, think of the achieve Darov. and Sutek. 473 00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:45.000 You know, it doesn't matter if you can't do anything practical with it. 474 00:29:45.119 --> 00:29:48.299 Or if you're just a cat, you still want to destroy the world. 475 00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:49.920 And that's the point, isn't it? 476 00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:55.440 There are many different forms of power, but it all comes back to clinching onto that which cannot be possessed. 477 00:29:55.980 --> 00:29:58.200 Because it doesn't really exist. 478 00:29:58.259 --> 00:30:00.960 All that exists is the life of the mind. 479 00:30:01.019 --> 00:30:03.720 It's your own position in the world as you choose to be. 480 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:10.619 I would like to say that I think this is a really intelligent science fiction script. 481 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:17.700 Like, obviously, the science in the last episode bonkers and, you know, adding stuff to a star should increase its math rather than decrease it, whatever. 482 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:30.720 But what I love about it is it gives us an alien who is so different that it has no way to communicate via speech by itself. 483 00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:33.960 It needs to use other people's voices, which is a fascinating idea. 484 00:30:34.019 --> 00:30:41.700 It gives us some the concept of the scarcity that we were living within our world. 485 00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:47.099 As you said, Richard, taken to a bonkers extreme to use your description as well. 486 00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:51.599 And, you know, we we're made to pity Arato for 3 episodes. 487 00:30:51.599 --> 00:30:55.920 And then in episode four, He just like, well, thanks for freeing me. 488 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:57.660 This planet's about to explode. 489 00:30:57.720 --> 00:30:59.880 I'll be off. 490 00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:03.059 You know, and so he has this weird morality. 491 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:06.059 Do we pity him for 3 episodes, though? 492 00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:09.599 Don't we think he's a terrifying murderous monster for the 1st one? 493 00:31:09.660 --> 00:31:10.380 And why isn't he? 494 00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:12.900 Because if he's that intelligent, maybe he's all brain space. 495 00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:17.640 Would he not have worked out if you're trying to talk to these moral philosophers that they keep chucking down the pit? 496 00:31:17.700 --> 00:31:21.240 If you roll over and get a bit too close, they go squishy and they die. 497 00:31:21.299 --> 00:31:24.180 I think he was just bored and cross and we're quite happy to kill them all. 498 00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.400 He does kill he does kill a draster. 499 00:31:26.460 --> 00:31:28.920 Yeah, well, he does say after... 500 00:31:28.980 --> 00:31:31.680 I think it's Romona chastises him for eating people. 501 00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:33.539 He's like, well, I didn't have anything else. 502 00:31:33.900 --> 00:31:36.359 It's kind of like a sore film. 503 00:31:36.420 --> 00:31:46.559 Speaking of a sore film, it's very kind of you to say that this was clever and concept science fiction, and I think it certainly had been in the 30s when it was 1st written. 504 00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:55.440 But this is mostly taking, and this is one of the things we didn't have this in the 70s, but Britain had Star Trek over and over and over again. 505 00:31:55.500 --> 00:32:01.200 And the BBC didn't quite get that Doctor Who and Star Trek can't be positioned one against the other. 506 00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:06.779 Then the BBC thought that they were the same, but the viewer and the certainly the production team knew better. 507 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:13.980 This is a piss take of an episode called Devil in the Dark, that you remember from, I think, season episode 25, Not that I would know these things. 508 00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:18.660 Where it's the water, hoarder, which is a big rock sentient rock. 509 00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:38.460 And even writes on the wall, I kill no, or I do not kill, and there's, you know, instead of a mind meld with Spock, you have the shield, but it's that story, but it takes the piss because whereas that is about, you know, the Star Trek universe of just reduced military intelligence contradiction in terms with the doctor. 510 00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:43.859 This is actually about the creative individual coming in and turning over. 511 00:32:43.980 --> 00:32:46.500 No, this is definitely a piss take on Star Trek. 512 00:32:46.619 --> 00:32:53.819 I mean, it has the political thing that the Star Trek of that period doesn't explicitly have. 513 00:32:53.880 --> 00:33:04.619 I think, you know, original Star Trek, much as we love it, isn't sending the political message that it thinks it is. sending a racial mess, more of a social message. 514 00:33:04.740 --> 00:33:06.720 Yeah, it's still very much about military might. 515 00:33:06.779 --> 00:33:07.259 Well, that's right. 516 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:08.579 And American imperialism and stuff. 517 00:33:08.640 --> 00:33:13.079 And it, um, but it's, you know, like it's well-intentioned. 518 00:33:13.140 --> 00:33:22.619 And I guess the point of devil in the dark is that we have moral obligations to things that we can't even imagine we do. 519 00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:32.220 You know, once we discover the hoarder is sentient, it's got children, it cares about its children, it's distressed for that reason. 520 00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:39.900 It's enough like us that we now have a moral obligation to it, even though it's a big rock eating, blobby rock thing. 521 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:41.039 It's still like us. 522 00:33:41.099 --> 00:33:42.900 Yeah, it is a duna, isn't it? 523 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.660 It's like that thing that attacks them in Claus Vaxos. 524 00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:52.259 Yeah, whereas Doctor Who's allowed to have aliens, even other humanoids are completely different from us, but that's also okay. 525 00:33:52.319 --> 00:33:53.099 Yeah. 526 00:33:53.099 --> 00:34:02.940 One thing I have noticed that David Fisher tends to do in his scripts, and we'll see it again next year, is that he's one of Doctor Who's best world builders. 527 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:09.539 You know, stones of blood, he doesn't just do the Bob Baker and Dave Martin thing of, oh, we're a modern day earth. 528 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:11.039 There's a nuclear power station. 529 00:34:11.099 --> 00:34:11.639 Let set it there. 530 00:34:11.699 --> 00:34:12.119 Yeah. 531 00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:13.800 Yeah, stones of blood. 532 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:17.579 He sort of says, oh, okay, we'll set it in this stone circle. 533 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:20.039 Well, what happened in this stone circle 2000 years ago? 534 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.260 Let's look, that's our story. 535 00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:23.940 Androids Atara. 536 00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:25.380 What happened 200 years ago? 537 00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:27.360 That's the fallout of our story. 538 00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:28.980 Creature from the pit. 539 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:33.360 This creature has come here 20 years ago and this planet has been like this for 50 years. 540 00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:35.099 And then, of course, Leisure Hive. 541 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:40.380 We had this war here and it was horrible and now a 100 years later the species is almost dead. 542 00:34:40.500 --> 00:34:43.920 A lot of doctor writers don't put that kind of thought. 543 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:50.280 I mean, Chris Boucher comes to mind as one who does, but Holmes does as well. 544 00:34:50.340 --> 00:34:56.820 Holmes tends to create worlds where you think there's more going on outside the frame. 545 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.699 But most Doctor Who Riders in the classic series. 546 00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:00.659 I'm very immediate. 547 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:05.280 Like this is the story we're telling now. you know, let's say the dominators. 548 00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:08.280 We might hear that, oh yes, we gave up on more centuries ago. 549 00:35:08.340 --> 00:35:09.659 But that's pretty much it. 550 00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:10.980 Terry Nation. 551 00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:12.239 Oh yeah, there was a war here. 552 00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:16.139 And yeah, that's a creature there from the war. 553 00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:24.179 You know, it's David Fisher has seems to have this thing about the past directly influencing the present. 554 00:35:24.780 --> 00:35:27.539 Which we don't see a lot of. 555 00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:36.719 I think he may, he's definitely, as I've said before, Android Atara is my favourite of who story, he may well be my favourite classic writer, and it's a shame that this is his 2nd last script. 556 00:35:36.780 --> 00:35:38.099 He is very good. 557 00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:38.639 And he's funny. 558 00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:44.400 He tends to be funny as well, and that's going to be interesting next year when the war on funny begins. 559 00:35:58.139 --> 00:36:07.980 That's all the time we have on the planet of chloros, dear listener, but we're warming up our CET machines in preparation for Nightmare of Eden next week. 560 00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:15.659 Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 561 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.780 Please do share and comment on this. 562 00:36:18.840 --> 00:36:21.000 It's the only way that new people find out about us. 563 00:36:21.059 --> 00:36:30.840 And also, please check out bondfinger.com where we have a variety of Sean Connery commentaries and a commentary on David Nevin's Casino Royale. 564 00:36:30.900 --> 00:36:36.539 Gentlemen, I do want to finish off by just saying, as I mentioned early, this is our last Welsh watch. 565 00:36:37.139 --> 00:36:40.380 Thank you, Terry, wherever you are now. 566 00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:46.800 We've really enjoyed having you on the program and yeah, I think it's going to be a slightly less fun place without you. 567 00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:50.219 But listeners, thank you very much for listening and good night. 568 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:51.119 Good night. 569 00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:51.599 Good night. 570 00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:59.159 That was flight to entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone. 571 00:36:59.219 --> 00:37:05.039 This episode, There Shall Be No Fire, was recording on the 6th of December, 2015. 572 00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:13.980 The next episode will be released on February 14th, 2016, approximately 159 odds from... now. 573 00:37:20.099 --> 00:37:23.280 Creature from the pit, 6th of December. 574 00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:25.559 What's that look? 575 00:37:25.619 --> 00:37:27.900 It's creature from Tip Pit. 576 00:37:27.960 --> 00:37:29.159 From Tip Pit. 577 00:37:29.219 --> 00:37:30.599 Stop it. 578 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.599 Ooh, aye, we got a tactonian down pet. 579 00:37:36.659 --> 00:37:38.579 Hmm, are you doing the accent? 580 00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:41.699 Sorry, I forgot to cleanse. 581 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:45.119 And release, yes. 582 00:37:45.539 --> 00:37:48.900 I don't know what I'm gonna do with this polystyrene. 583 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:51.480 What am I gonna do with all this points? 584 00:37:51.539 --> 00:37:53.519 Build them in myself? 585 00:37:53.639 --> 00:37:55.320 Oh, I'm gonna build. 586 00:37:55.380 --> 00:38:02.519 No, no, I think I'm gonna build the Excelon City and then just like pour ass it all over. 587 00:38:02.579 --> 00:38:03.780 Oh, it works too. 588 00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:05.400 You just need turpentine. 589 00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:09.300 Nail polish remover. yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. 590 00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:12.900 You could grind it up and make your very own reboss streetscape. 591 00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:16.380 That's staying in as well, isn't it? 592 00:38:16.739 --> 00:38:17.639 Oh, pirate planet cities. 593 00:38:17.699 --> 00:38:18.900 Yeah, planet villages. 594 00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:22.139 Save it, we'll do a blue Peter style video.