Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast made up of postgraduates talking to
each other.
We've tried to have it banned.
I am Brendan.
I'm Nathan, and I feel odd to the touch.
I can't be cut with a razor, and I will make your spectrographs
look nervous. for this story.
What story are we doing?
We are doing the loft story.
Shut up.
Thank you for that link, Kef McCulloch.
Oh, isn't Keff terrible?
I think he does a decent job of impersonating Duckley.
It's very kind of his photo.
Awful.
It's terribly inappropriate music.
And after we said goodbye to David Brierly, he's back this week on
the video release.
So you're all pretending that this exists in the visual medium
which I'm here to, because this is my story, I've got this one.
So I'm very happy to share that this canonical reason, referencing
Nathan, dictates that this can't be seen because the time scoop
cancelled this story from our version of reality.
And you recall, the little story called The Five Doctors that came
out, not long afterwards, and yet it felt like 20 years after this
as far as the distance of narrative and style goes, and you
suddenly see Tom and Lando in a punt.
And instantly, my yearning, my nostalgia, which, what was the
etymology is 2 Greek words meaning what, pain and home, home, it's
like homesickness.
Yeah, nice film, the pain of the loss, really, pain.
Yeah. of them not being here anymore.
And so, of course, as we know that, it does exist, but it never
actually came out because the time was, sort of cancelled it.
And so really, really, when Paul McGann goes back and for some
reason has to go get Lala and K 9 from Gallifrane and then go off
and have that adventure.
That's probably the real version of this story.
So can we just briefly contextualise this for those who don't know
exactly about all of these overlapping versions?
So this gets abandoned.
We get the location footage done in some of the studio sessions
and then it's abandoned.
Yes, that's correct.
So I think we got the location footage and the 1st studio
sessions?
70-something minutes of 150-something minutes that...
Most of part one exist, but the other parts are about 17, 18
minutes long.
And that gets released on VHS with a script book.
Do you remember that?
I remember earlier draft of the scriptbook, yes.
I remember bicycling to a video store in DY in order to kind of
find it.
And actually, this is a great point because Taunt would like to
know about the myriad versions there are of Shalda.
Well, gentlemen, we've arrived in Shada.
My question is this.
What version of Shada did you watch, read, or listen to?
I watched the reedited version from the 1992 video release.
I think the location work on this is absolutely stunning.
Is this potentially the best six part Graham Williams story that
never was?
Well, I'll let you debate the pros and cons of the rest of this
story and whether it actually is part of Doctor Who Continuity.
And I guess I'll see you all in 1980.
So, 100 years later, they do a version, and it's actually
broadcast on the internet, and it's big finish 2003, audio
starring Paul McGann as the doctor in Roman, who's by now
president of Galafre, and it's a sort of flash animation thing.
Into web flash animation, which is always so successful for a
whole story.
It's a bit rough, actually.
And then there's the novelisation by Gareth Roberts in 2012.
Which is what I used to review this story.
Right.
To me, that is now the canon version of this one.
You know, I think we've had this conversation before, but I mean
if you're saying this is not canon, Are you in some sense saying?
Oh, it is, but it doesn't exist in a visual medium.
But anyone who claims that it's not canon seems to me to be saying
that this didn't happen in the way that the horns of Naimon
actually happened.
And given that spoiler alert, neither of them actually.
It seems like a kind of fruitless argument.
Possibly, yeah.
But like all discussions of church like law, we could stay in this
for a very long time, couldn't we?
You could.
I actually have a form to reconcile how this story is canon or
what have you.
Because that 2003 version, as Richard alluded to earlier.
There was a new prologue written for that performed by Paul McGann
where he goes back and picks up Romana and K9 and says we were
taken out of time, but we should have had this adventure.
So we need to go back and have it again.
So in the original TV version of the 5 doctors.
That is where the doctor's taken out of time.
Shanda doesn't happen for the 4th doctor and the 8th doctor has to
go back and do it.
In the special edition of the 5 doctors.
The time scoop puts them back in the punt at the time they left.
So you can pick whichever version you like.
Both of them happened.
Both of them happen.
My personal opinion of Doctor Who Canon and the comics and the
audios and the stage plays and whatever else.
And this is something I wrote into my 1st script for Planet
Scarrow Audios.
Everything happened somewhere.
Which is a very Douglas Adams take on it.
You know, it's like it's like the curator in Day of the Doctor.
It's like, does it really matter how he got there?
What's more important is that he's there.
Does it really matter if Shada happened and how Shada happened?
The important thing is that we have about 15 versions of it.
It's kind of funny, but for me, like, before we leave a canon
thing.
The thing about the TV show that elevates it is that it's the
thing that has an audience of 1000000s, it's the thing that you
it's the format of the show that you can share with other people.
You know, you can sit and watch it.
Doing an audio or reading a book or a comic is a really solitary
experience, but there's something shared.
And so our memories of Doctor Who.
And because it's so central, yeah, we're more likely to have seen
a TV show than we are to have read a particular comic or a
particular new adventure or a particular BBC book.
And so that's the thing that we come back to, I think.
There is one more version we haven't discussed, which is the
animated version by Ian Levine.
Oh, yes.
Now, Ian developed this with a view to selling it to entertain to
put out...
Well, sorry, selling it to BBC worldwide to put out on the DVD.
And apparently the reason that didn't happen was that sort of Ian
did it off his own bat.
And the problem was one of contracts because the way it was
produced, if the BBC had bought it, they would have had to pay for
it as an original drama and that wasn't in the budget of the DVD
release.
That would have also meant paying the Adams estate for an original
drama, even if Adam's widow and his daughter had said, and look, no
we don't want the money.
It actually a contractual obligation, which is part of the reason
it can get released.
I have seen it.
And this is going to lead me into a little story about a very
controversial figure in Doctor Who Fandom, who is Ian Levine.
Ian Lean's animated version features Lala Ward, John Leeson, Daniel
Hill, Victoria Burgoyne, and Christopher Neam, all reprising their
roles.
It doesn't feature Tom.
It features a friend of mine, Paul Jones, who's a voice artist and
very good Tom impersonator.
And Ian invited him round, along with a group of people, to watch
a working print of Shada with the animated scenes cut in with the
live action scenes and like, so it's live action where the live
action exists and then animated to cover the bits that don't.
Paul said to me, look, Ian's asked me if I want to take anyone.
I don't think anyone in my family would be interested.
A, I think A, I think you'll be interested in B. I don't know if
there's going to be other people I know there.
Would you mind coming along?
Because, you know, I know Ian, but Ian's going to be talking to
other people who needs to host. didn't you?
I didn't dress up too I didn't dress up, dress up too fancy.
But there wasn't anyone else from the cast there, but there were
there were lots of people, including Warris Hussein.
Wow.
It was also similarly dressed.
It was rather embarrassing for everyone.
I talked to Morris Hussein about directing and said, you know, this
was before I was working in television and how interested I was in
going into television and he said how much he'd love to direct an
episode of the new series.
With whom do you both have to sleep to?
Well, I'm pretty sure I flirted outrageously with Warris that
you're saying, and I'm not entirely unsure he didn't flirt with
me.
Is there any other level of flirting?
to be performed other than that.
And so, yeah, we sat down and we watched it.
And Paul said to me, after you watch it, I want an honest
assessment of what you think of my Tom.
And when we got out, I said, And when we got out, I said to him, if
I'm giving you an honest assessment, Paul, you sound like season
12, Tom, not season 17, Tom.
That's the only difference.
Oh, such kind gross.
That was.
Look, I'm devastated.
I think the friendship would have ended right there.
Not only that, but Paul had to record his line sitting across from
Lala Ward.
Was she poking and making finger gestures and doing the whole
thing?
At the end of the 1st scene, she just looked at him and said
freaky.
But they were naked, but that's strange.
Now, something I would like to talk about is because Ian Levine
gets a lot of flack and I'm not going to go into the recent things
with the missing episode.
We've talked about Ian before.
I love Ian.
Yeah, well, the thing is, Ian...
Ian also showed us that night, a DVD special feature that had yet
to be released.
I just have no idea where this is going.
Ian also showed us that night, this DVD teacher, and just asked
please, no one mention it because I shouldn't really show it to
anyone.
We're having such a nice time blow that up.
It's a lot of blood and gore.
And anyway, I left and, you know, no one was said about it.
And a few days later, I got a message from Paul saying, um, look
I'm really sorry to ask you this, but someone told the guy who
made the special feature that Ian showed it to us and Ian has
asked me to ask you.
It wasn't you.
It wasn't me, and but Ian said Ian said to Paul, quite rightly.
He's the only person I'd ever met before.
Could you ask him?
I can't imagine anyone else would have.
And so I said I said to Paul, no, that's not the case.
And then I thought, you know what?
Ian Levine, a lot of people see him as this person who will just
attack people online.
He didn't do that.
And he, so I actually, because at the time I was on Gallifro Bass
which is an online forum, I found him on that and sent him a
personal message saying, Ian, I want to assure you that I didn't
tell anyone about it, but I also appreciate that I'm the obvious
suspect.
And I think, you know, it was very considerate of you to ask me
through Paul.
And I got a really lovely email back from him saying, you know
what?
You seem like a nice book.
I didn't think it was you, but thank you for understanding my
position.
And yeah, I haven't had any other personal dealings with the
match.
Would you please post it?
I haven't had any other personal dealings with the man.
But that was my experience of being living.
Nice.
It is a lovely story, thank you.
On the topic of that animation, I'll just say Christopher Neem has
gone insane and I won't say anything more.
Seek it out and watch it.
The other 3 versions we haven't mentioned are obviously the light
opera, the sculptural version.
And the impressionistic dance version.
Oh, yes, I was thinking of the fuzzy felt set, actually.
And don't forget Charles Kate Feldman's 13 hour film.
Yeah, the edit. featuring Peter Cushing, Rowan Atkinson, and
Trevor Martin.
Yes, that was awesome.
Psychedelic.
I wish we'd had Roan Atkinson as a doctor in some America.
We do.
Maybe we still will. properly.
No, Chibles castle.
Not just for Christmas.
No.
Well, can we talk about how we have sort of said how wonderful
this story is, and if you don't know it, I have no idea why you're
listening to us, because it will make no sense at all.
But it is a beautiful thing and it is the... like a hat like
that.
I should like a hat like that.
Don't you get, isn't it lovely that when Adams is talking about
where to write this story and again, it's a 6 day rise.
But he said, there's nowhere else in the world other than
Cambridge where you could dress like this villain, panto villain
and not be noticed.
And no, no, no, no, have no one really pay you much attention, okay
it's Skagra.
But it's Scaroff, but it's every villain that, you know, we don't
want to talk about weakness in Adam's style.
It's the same villain every time because he's talking about the
overarching, mimetic quality of villainy, which is greed
selfishness, narcissism, and suppressed self-loathing, because
they don't read enough poetry and they didn't have the joy to go
and do humanities at Cambridge and get really filthily drunk and
have lovely time meeting girls like Lana Ward.
And Victoria Burgoyne.
Oh, Victoria Burgoyne.
She is amazing.
And she not only does she look like a Chanel ad.
She pictures it if you can see her.
She on YouTube, isn't it?
You can actually see bits of the performance without having to
dash out and buy anything, can't you?
I don't know I just assume because I've seen it so many times in
other mediums.
But yeah, yeah, she's absolutely not perfect in this.
She's gorgeous, whereas Chris Parsons, of course, is the Mary Sue
and Douglas.
He even likes Bark, like Douglas does.
I don't think they perform. anything wrong with the performance.
I just think the character's really weird.
But there's so much else going on in this and there's so many
levels and we can talk about the antecedents, but this is the
apotheosis of Douglas's thoughts.
Douglas's vision, you know, for his artistic, millie, of his
artistic writing, and that it doesn't actually ever get seen, it's
kind of perfect because, well, as we've already said, it, it's
something that you can then go over and interpret, and we spend a
lot more time thinking about this story than many others of the
70s because it doesn't have that visceral quality.
You don't think so?
I've spent a lot of time on this story.
Been going and reading the book.
I really don't like it.
Because there is always that question.
Isn't there?
Is this the story that would have redeemed season 17?
Is this going to be the great William season finale?
And I just don't think it is.
And I think it...
Well, we haven't seen Skagger actually do anything that mints
about in Cambridge.
No, look, I mean, part of it is, I think, due to the presentation
the DVD presentation.
I have to say that I think the novelisation is really much more
successful and really enjoyable.
But the TV thing that we have because Skagra's in the studio
blocks that don't get shot because all of the climactic stuff, all
of the big, you know, episode 5 reversals, all of the things on
the spaceship aren't there and it just narrated to us by Tom.
What we get is the location stuff, which is wonderful, an absolute
breath of fresh air after what?
Is it 3 successive stories without a frame of location work at
all?
So that would have gone some way to redressing the balance and
making the season a little bit more interesting.
But like there's a kind of exhaustion about the whole thing.
Like, I have to think the monsters would have been terrible.
It's beyond...
We don't get to see.
Well, I imagine they have to be.
It's beyond tiresome that all of the great geniuses in the entire
galaxy are old white man.
That's horrifically bad There's lots.
Of course he's got more important things to talk about.
I think he says, we know what villainy is.
It's like good to Sereni talking about nazism and Hitler, you know
the Eichmann trials when she said the base of evil is banality.
Evil itself is actually really boring.
That's where it comes from.
People are bored. thats why they're evil.
In terms of those scientists.
Remember, they start off with young white men, so at least...
Oh, yeah, okay.
But it is surprising.
It was Hannah Rent, sorry, not Guta Seren.
Gita, so when he talked about Albert Speer, Hitler's architect and
Hannah Arrent was the New Yorker correspondent on the Eichman
trials in the early 60s.
Playing the Judy Garland character from the film.
I just had to throw that.
It is surprising that there aren't at least some women amongst
those scientists because, of course, this is directed by Pennant
Roberts.
Yeah, we have Victoria...
We have Victoria Bergon, but one of Pennant Roberts things was to
take one male role per script and turn it into a woman.
Like Marn.
Like man.
Or pantomime.
And later on, Preston in Warriors of the Deep.
And they're all such shining examples, aren't they?
Yeah, thank good.
No, I like man.
Preston's pretty good as well.
Like when she's standing on Turlo, that's a fun scene.
She's with great hair.
But we're getting ahead of ourselves.
I'm standing on Turlo.
Is that the name of this episode?
I quite like the design of the Krags, because we do see one at the
end of episode two.
Threatening the doctor.
Yeah, they would have had CSO overlays and all those of it.
They've got their light up arms.
They do, so do we all.
Concentrating on villainies, not the point.
And I think Douglas Adams wanted us to think very little of the
villainy because they are other bland.
They're just there to give us something to act against.
But everything that is in this is about Adam's take on the
universe.
And he's citing.
There's all these references.
I'll go into it if you want to.
The big hits of the day, um, Hofstarter, you remember Douglas
Douglas Hofstarter's book, Girdle.
There's notions of that.
Thomas Pinchin's Gravity's Rainbow.
The whole over- king sense of the 60s search for the self and the
connection between selves and how that will build a world that
needs that needs rescuing because the current one we had is so
indolent and selfish.
But he then goes on.
I mean, there's references of this of post-yungian synchronicity.
And there's planetary movements of the spheres mentioned in this
as in the little bouncing silver sphere, which is akin to air
molecules and moving about, you know, kept taking.
No, it's just not it's not turning into compelling television for
me.
It does seem like there's a lot of space corridors and it does
seem like there's a lot of faffing about on spaceships.
I have to say much as I love season 17, I'm a bit sick of that.
Really?
Yeah, a little bit.
It's going me, me, me, me, meme, meme, is it?
I think.
I don't get it.
I can watch you're saying, but I can't get enough of that.
Nathan, I do recommend. seek out the animated version.
Do you know, I did try to watch the animated version and the
animation is really rough and Paul McGann...
No, no, no, not the Paul McGann version.
I mean the Ian Levine anime version.
The Paul McGo one's not much fun.
The Ian Levine version, the animation is about on par with the
animation in the Ice Warriors DVD.
Okay.
Yeah.
So that bad.
Because that's the, I kind, I, I found the video version to be a
disappointment.
You know, as you say, all the big reverses and all the big reveals
are narrated by Tom, and I would just sit there and try and
imagine to myself what that would have looked like.
The Paul McGann version helped me help me a little with that.
But then this version that Ian had animated.
It really helps to sell those scenes and the scenes with Lala and
Christopher Nene.
Despite the fact they were recorded on separate continents because
Christopher Neem lives in America now.
Still wearing the case.
Still wearing the cape and hat.
He wears it in that Voyager episode he's in, doesn't he?
Yeah, and he's in an episode of Babylon 5 as well. playing a very
similar role.
He's actually playing a psychic, psychic police side.
But their scenes are really compelling and really sell this idea
of the loss of individualism because that is the central idea that
Scangrow wants no one to be an individual except himself and
everyone will be his individual self.
And that is powerful.
And unfortunately, those scenes weren't recorded because we only
had the 1st studio recording block and they actually rehearsed the
2nd, went to lunch, came back, and the doors to the studio were
locked.
The industrial action had started while they were at lunch.
Wow.
And the next studio session they could get was a week after
broadcast was a week after the scheduled broadcast.
I don't know if Graham Williams said, look, let's just have a
hiatus and then come back with the last 6 episodes, but yeah, the
decision was taken on the 10th of December to finish the season
with the Horns of Nimon instead.
There was some story, and I don't know how true it was that, like
there are conflicting accounts.
It's a bit like Nero and the Great Fire of Rome.
Some people say that John Nathan Turner did his level best to try
and salvage the story.
Yeah, there were 2 versions of it.
Yeah, and the other version was he was happy to let it go and to
get an extra 2 episodes for his 1st season.
So he was the Fiona Walker all the time.
Yes, but we like we don't know which of those.
It's true.
Did he write the Tom Baker linking material for the DVD?
Yeah.
That's very strange that, like, he's narrating it as if he's the
doctor or something and it doesn't really work.
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.
There are people who criticise that and then and then praise the
curator in Day of the Doctor.
That, hey, that's the curator.
It's the curator.
Okay, go.
It's canon.
Canon.
Yeah.
Is that where the idea for the curator comes from?
I had he always felt at home at museums.
I had never heard that JNT hadn't wanted to make it.
His extra 2 episodes thing.
I had just always heard was him saying, I don't want to do any 6
parters.
And he also had Barry Letts to back him up because Barry Letts was
incoming as executive producer. knew more than anyone else how
horrendous 6 parties are.
Yeah, yeah.
I think when JNT was trying to remount it.
He was actually toying with the idea of resripting it and making
it a four-parter.
Yeah, he was taking all the jokes out, probably.
Yeah, take the jokes off of science, scientificating.
And I think the only reason it didn't come off was cast
availability, and I can't say who wasn't available in particular
but I think some of the guest cast weren't available, and it just
became a matter of, well, we can't wait to do this, and we can't
have this as we can't have this as a moveable feast while we're
planning our season story arc.
No, it was probably just better to cut the cord, you know?
Yeah, yeah.
How much energy can you put into that when you currently don't
have workable scripts which we'll discuss?
Williams was still very proud of this story and you can say that
in genuine embitteredness that came of this cancellation and the
exhaustion.
And finally, bringing are about to bring around what he really
wanted to do, which would have been his next season, had he not
shuffled off and said goodbye.
You know all about that plans for the future?
He had plans for another season.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, with some interesting stories and a whole new
take.
No bid meat.
I knew he wasn't going to get Douglas back, but the impression
that Douglas left in the series and with the coupling of the
doctor and the companion in this one was apparently something that
he felt was really strong and the BBC felt was really strong and
they wanted to see it continue.
But this whole thing, like these 3 years have been this kind of
limping towards the finish line all the way through, you know
these constant stories get cancelled, scripts fall through.
There's suddenly no money.
Like I've just been re-listening. to some of our season 15
podcasts because I'm kind of tragic and a little bit self
obsessed.
And, you know, that is just this sort of terrible tale of fighting
against production problems and having those production problems
really clearly visible in what makes it to screen.
And so, you know, there's flashes of genius through all of this
stuff, season 16 is virtually free of that.
Well, there's the Armageddon factor.
But here finally, he succumbs to the production problems in such a
way that a whole story just doesn't end up happening.
And unfortunately, as we've observed in the last few episodes, this
is the story he was saving up to make.
You know, the previous stories suffer visually, uh, and in a
budgetary way because he's saving up to make this story.
So it goes and it takes a whole heap of like beautiful location
footage, just witty dialogue, all of that sort of stuff with it
just goes.
I've just been reading through my notes and John Nathan Turner. did
actually send revised scripts to Pennant Roberts to create 250
minute episodes out of Charter.
Oh, okay.
And the only reason it didn't happen was Studio Space.
Just like the original.
Yeah, yeah.
And when that happened, Christ forbid me, it actually said, well
look, it's not really in keeping with the tone we're going for now
either.
Because it's fun.
And, you know, also with that broadcast date, it would have been
screened in the middle of the e-space trilogy. fantastic.
Imagine the linking material for that.
Doctor, you've changed out of your clothes.
Oh, and we're on an identical version of Cambridge in this green
space.
Oh, oh, oh, oh God.
It would have been a lovely holiday special thing.
Just like the Star Wars holiday special.
Can you imagine?
Actually, B Arthur would have been terrific.
Yeah.
Just a fact.
Yeah.
It's like it's a problem. not a girl.
We needed a girly villain.
Look how great Myra...
Yeah, she was.
Oh, yeah.
We just need a Janet Ellis back.
Actually, Susan Jamison.
She was meant to be a villain in the pertly era.
She never got to be a villain.
She had to settle for Mrs. Wimsy.
Yeah, sorry.
She had to settle for Mrs. Wibsy.
Yeah she did.
Huh?
I didn't know who we talking about now.
In the hornet's nest audios.
She is Tom's companion.
His housekeeper, Mrs. Whoops.
We have met her.
We've talked about her before, I think.
They're not very good butt, are they?
They get better in the 3rd season when they're more full cast.
Oh, God, they did 3 seasons.
They did 3 seasons.
Paul Mars.
Yeah, Paul Mars, because and you get David Troughton in playing
the 2nd doctor. in the 3rd season.
Did he refuse to ever do that?
Oh, it wasn't him.
It was BF who refused to cast him.
Well, no, no, because BFD cast him.
I think there is a conceit in the story as to why he sounds
different.
Yeah.
And I think maybe that's the only way.
They short about the time differential.
Oh, yeah.
The good thing is this is 1979 and Patrick Troughton's not dead
yet.
It seems a good time to talk about the rest of the cast.
We've already praised Victoria Burgoyne. was her 1st telly and she
doesn't remarkably well.
Referencing herself, but...
I hate that outfit.
I hate her hair She lets her hair down, I think, and then starts
to look more human and stuff.
I don't think it's that flattering an outfit.
Perfect 70s cool.
I think love.
Well, you see, that's the thing. you know, Lala is very glam
because she's going out on a pond.
Claire's a scientist.
So Claire is wearing something practical and something safe for
the lap.
That's why she's got a hair tied back and that's why she's wearing
quote unquote, sensible clothes.
You don't mess about with a spectrograph with your Lally's all
laying down in your hair or Uriah all of a mess, do you?
Well, fair enough.
And she has that wonderful bit towards the end of the story where
the doctor says, ask me who Sally Avon is and because she's got
the professor's memory.
Oh, well, now he was a great criminal in prison century.
And she does it so perfectly in that you know it's unusual that
she's saying it, but she's still perfectly comfortable saying it
and she's got that beautiful scene with the professor did
something to me, did something to my mind, which, yes, you can
interpret that as innuendo.
But she plays it very well in that she's slightly disturbed by it
but she's not terrified and not screaming about it.
You know, she's a scientist. interesting thing that happened.
She's quite good with the professor too in those scenes.
Yes. about the light fun.
A lovely Dennis.
We think he's pretty good, don't he?
He is good.
He is terrific.
Pennant would bring him back in a few years. as an android.
Yeah, oh, no, he's great.
And okay, you know what?
The 2 lumps, no sugar stuff does start to wear a bit thin halfway
through the first.
I can't remember how I worked about.
There is a logic in it somewhere.
Maybe it's the lumpiness of milk, but sorry.
It is funny.
I think it is actually a funny thing.
The whole thing's funny.
It has this lovely lightness of touch.
It goes along.
Okay, it's HD Wills, the door in the wall. you ever read that?
It's a rooms with a door on it and that's a spaceship thing that a
time spec- it's the same background.
I mean, it's not actually that much funner.
It doesn't matter about antecedents for this thing because this is
about coming together.
I have lots of different ideas.
It works.
It works all the way through.
I can't find a dead moment in it.
Once again, you know, Graham Williams is doing something new with
the time lords, along with Douglas, because Douglas's initial germ
of the idea was how to time lords punish their criminals.
You know, we saw one dematerialised once ages go, what does that
actually mean?
and what do they do with their own kind who are criminals, et
cetera, et cetera.
And that was the German B idea.
I like that he's saying that even time lords don't know their own
full story and don't know how powerful they actually are.
Yes.
And yeah, I love the idea that we've got other timelords out in
the universe who like the doctor.
They're not trying to take over planets.
You know, this is a guy who's just decided, oh, I'm going to
retire to Earth.
Now, the thing is he has to stay in exile.
He has to lay low.
But, you know, he hasn't gone off to a craggy moon.
He's gone, oh, you know...
I'll just go off and sit here.
And as he says, you know, everyone's so discreet.
No one's ever going to say, hold on, haven't you been here for 300
years?
They'll just think, no, that can't possibly be right.
That's very Douglas, you know.
It's the someone else's problem field.
Yeah.
And that's other, and it is such a lovely portrayal.
You know, he does get cross occasionally and you do see a little
bit of fire in him like, what have you done with my machine?
But most of the time, he's really sweet and really gentle, but it
doesn't feel forced.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, it is a really likeable performance and he's a great
character.
I was looking again at Hofstadter's book and how he talks about
the propagations of mathematics, micro and macro.
So, you know, that the clouds in your coffee take the same form as
the spirals of the Milky Way.
You could say, well, that's a very vain approach, Carly Simon.
But it's exactly what you're saying.
The statistically predictable quotient of mass, the action of mass
is yet individually random and pointless.
Dr. Norman will win by their randomness, by their apparent
pointlessness, by their unpredictability, and by the generation of
joy that comes from chaotic intent.
The villains are really, and this one as well.
I think it's unfair to say that they're dull white men because the
dull white men are the ones with the power.
That's why he gets them to play villains.
The reason we only get Myra Francis is a villain is because it's
not what Douglas was trying to tell us.
And yes, it makes more fun to watch some variation.
But it's because the Nietzsche, Nietzschean, I should say, and the
narcissistic Alistair Crowley like similes that are going all
through.
White guys rule and they're bloody awful and they're taking away
the money from Cambridge.
They're taking away, look what they're doing to the BBC through
strike actions through all the rest of it.
Petty power plays are destroying the fun in the world and they're
white blokes who are doing it.
Well, I mean, those signs...
Did we say?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I mean, I really was referring to those scientists who
have had their minds emptied, you know, and are living in the
think tanks.
But at the same time, they were BBC producers.
At the same time, they've also contributed to this project.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they're the victims of the...
They're the victims, but at the same time, they've helped him
create it.
Yeah.
You know?
Whereas you've got, actually, you do have attention as
scientists.
So you've got these scientists who've created the brain drain.
Yes, the tension of something.
I do like creative.
Spin them flange, isn't it?
I do like creative nouns like, oh my god. and 0 my god, get the
thong of spiders.
No, I collect huntsmen and put them out in garden.
And what about spiders?
But meanwhile on earth. that red cape is always trolling around
you have Chris and Claire as scientists who are curious
scientists.
They find this immensely powerful object.
And don't attempt to use it for anything evil.
They attempt to research it and learn about it and find out more.
Mm, there's so much joy.
You know, I don't think that's necessarily an idea that's taken to
a massive conclusion.
Well, they the human versions of the doctor and Romana.
In fact, the child versions.
I'd like to think that they would be embarking on their own much
smaller universe fractal of the Dr. Romana's journey.
I like how Gareth makes there be a romantic thing between them in
the novel.
Didn't you find that in this story?
I mean, there is intended to be.
It's also underplayed. and that kind of thing.
It's very Ian and Barbara.
Oh, marvellous.
We've actually got Oh, wow.
We've even got 360 degree story arcing. right back to the
beginning.
Yeah.
I wouldn't be surprised to talk us had that in mind.
It's a time lord, an old man who's living hidden on earth and he's
discovered by these 2 educators.
Oh my god.
That's crazy, is it?
There he is.
My goodness, man.
Douglas was like a huge Doctor Who fan from the very beginning
because he shamelessly ripped off Darling.
Master Plan.
Yeah, yeah.
And that was, he said that's one of his earliest memories.
Oh, TV, yeah.
I'm putting Gene Marsh on a trampoline as one of his earliest
designers.
Yes, well, who hasn't felt like that?
Stephen and Peter Perv is something just because, you know, he's
got lovely bouncy hair in those days, so he had to do it as well
but I don't, why didn't they put Billy on a trampoline?
He would have broken.
Some of the best toys do.
You've seen that washing machine with a brick in it, I trampoline
haven't you?
Yes, I have.
I think that they're Douglas Adams theory contained in them.
I went to university with a chat.
I did this class called Electronic Arts as an elective.
That's where your funding money's gone to this.
And I was sort of doing the most conventional degree in that when
we were going around the room, people were saying, oh, you know
I'm doing electronics art in new media.
I'm doing flash animation, I'm doing this.
They get around to me.
Oh, I'm doing a bachelor of arts in English, and the tutor
literally said, and what else?
And like, no, just that.
What are you doing here?
Oh, it's an elective.
Oh, okay, right.
One of the guys who was, I think he must have been doing some kind
of drama degree.
The topic was the escape machine, and we had to do something about
the escape machine.
It could be a video, it could be an animation.
I did a short film.
His escape machine, he would get broken down appliances and smash
them with a sledgehammer.
So his final piece was behind Plexiglass screens out the back.
I was going to say, it could there could be a bit of offshooting
in this could be painful.
He was very safe.
He wore goggles and everything.
His final thing was to actually get his mother's old washing
machine, which was always breaking down when he was a kid. he
bought his mother a new he bought his mother a new washing
machine.
So he got the old washing machine.
He got the sledgehammer and just took 5 minutes to take it apart.
You called it Medea, didn't he?
Oh God, I don't know what he called it, but it was incredible.
He played that on the video, didn't he?
It was incredibly odd.
You know, we were undergraduates talking to each other and they
tried to have it back. kind of like this podcast, really.
They were also the cute pair of skater boys who I could never tell
that they were just mates, or if they were a couple who
hyperventilated as part of their final, as part of their final
presentation for the escape machine and collapsed on the floor.
It was also called Sunburst, you know, when it was 1st written
that's the, that was the acting title of this story.
It was also called The Brain Steelers.
Yeah, well, someone I know was in Cambridge and told me proudly
that he was in the background of a scene of Doctor Who and the
Brain Stealers.
And I think he was there during that pickup, you know, where
Skagra picks up the guy outside the Palm in Cambridge.
And of course, Gareth makes that in his novelisation into a gay
pickup, the guy that he picks up is gay and just thinks that he's
being picked up by his scagger and his cape and sort of hat.
And my friend was very sort of pleased with himself about being in
the background of this and I had to gently inform him that the
story never been made.
I will, I will say, possibly, this is a great point to close this
out.
It has been broadcast.
The VHS version has been broadcast by UK TV in Australia during
one of their repeat runs.
Wow.
They broad they just broadcasted as an...
Tom, the Tom thing.
As an omnibus version.
Oh my goodness.
How would that have been?
worked?
I've never been able to watch it all the way through.
You stop and have blue brakes.
Oh, well, they have that.
They have ads.
Oh, yeah.
But there you go.
Australia leading the way for Doctor Who again.
Backwardly.
Yes.
Well, we're doing everything else back with them.
Yes.
Jenny Laird awards, gentlemen.
I have one and I kind of jump the gun a little bit, but I do want
to mention friend of the podcast, Fiona, who wants to give the
Jenny Laird award to something that we mentioned in Nightmare of
Eden at the beginning of episode 4, the Incredibly Camp Spangley
sequined guards who get variously hugged to death by the
mandrals.
They do feel like they're from Vidal Sassoon's blow bar.
They do.
They really are quite magnificent.
It is awfully sweet how the how the mandrells just sort of wave
their arms at people and they fall over.
They're clearly meant to be kind of shredding them with their
claws, but it never really.
As you say, it's the overpowering scent of that fungal underarm.
That's it.
But I think that's almost certainly it.
But I do think that the thing that I think is a puzzling creative
choice is, I don't think Doctor Who is about spaceships, and I
don't think it's about science fiction.
And here, Doctor Who has turned into a show, set on various
spaceships, all of which have really kind of unimpressive
corridors and things, as you pointed out at the time.
And so I think, although I love this season to death, visually it
looks exhausted, there's no location footage for 12 consecutive
episodes, we're in the studio in really kind of cheaply realised
sets and everything's brown, you know, it's, it's ties.
There's that marvellous line from, um...
There's that fantastic line from Georgette Hire in the great
Sophie, when she says, you're doing it to Brian.
Sophie.
And it means over baking. was an 18th century. mine that ladies
used, allegedly.
But I do, I do believe she was actually also referring to the
Williams era.
Yes, yes.
My puzzling creative choice. probably won't be a surprise to
anyone.
It's the decision to bring back Alan Bromley as a director.
Because, yeah, he didn't do a bad job on the Time Warrior.
That's the most heinous thing that's happened this season for
you.
Um, yeah, yeah.
It really is because That means the rest of it must have been
pretty good.
Yeah.
Oh, you know what?
Because he doesn't do a bad job.
In terms of what we see on screen.
He does a bad job in terms of how he treated the actors.
Yeah, he's a bad job coalescing his performers to care about what
they're doing.
Yeah, or be integrated, yeah.
But, you know, at this point he was semi-retired.
Graham Williams has been in a constant struggle for all 3 of his
years as producer. for quality.
And we've had Michael Hayes directing.
We do have some new directors as well.
We have Ken Greve, we have Kenny McBain, who are both new
directors.
They do a good job.
We will have terrific Roberts.
Terrific drunks.
That really helps too.
And we've got old hands like Christopher Barry.
Now, Christopher Barry is an old hand is much better than Alan
Bromley as an old head.
I just don't understand why such an inexperienced director, in
terms of Doctor Who?
He'd only done one other.
He'd only done one other, and that was not a special effects
intensive story as we discussed at the time. you know, that was
mediaeval.
This had model shots.
This had lasers.
This had all studio.
We really needed someone who was confident with those things.
Now, you could say he's confident with all studio because he
worked in the early days of television, but things had moved on so
very much.
I mean, all that Quantel stuff. was pretty much left the visual
effects department.
Alan Bromley just kind of said, oh, you're doing a thing, you do
your thing.
You know, there was no consultation between them about, what do
you want this to look like, Alan?
He didn't care.
So he didn't care about special effect visuals.
He didn't care about the actors.
What did he care about?
Why was he there?
The bar.
Paycheque.
And this is something I forgot to mention during Nightmare of Even
so I'll mention it now because it is relevant.
Because the crew all went out and had these t-shirts made
afterwards.
Bring back Billy Hartnell.
No, but the makeup designer, Joan Stribling, still has her t-shirt
and it's based on one of the final lines of the serial, and the t
shirt is purple with big gold letters.
I'm glad the nightmare is over.
Oh, wow.
But yeah, that's my award.
Not necessarily Alan Bromley himself, but just the decision.
Don't worry, he's dead.
I know, but still.
The choice to have him in there.
Yeah.
I don't understand.
Yeah, I'm amazed that Graham Looms was still able to breathe by
the end of this season.
I think that's absolutely true.
It's just been 3 really horrifically difficult years. you know, my
puzzling creative choice is the BBC boffins, but I get where
they're coming from.
I think my choice would simply be really the state of anarchy in
the UK.
It's led to this, but I don't know, it's weak point, isn't it?
But I would have loved Douglas and Williams too, have continued
on.
I know that Adams wasn't going to stay for the next season, but
they were putting together where this was going to go and they
were looking at arcing this because it's one of the few shows
where you can do that.
Yes.
Back in the day.
Oh, well, there was upstairs downstairs.
But, you know, this could do it anywhere.
So, yeah, they got it.
They were both really clever men.
And we underestimate, oh, well, we don't, but we don't always give
credit to just how much of creative work Williams was doing in
this season.
He wrote most of the things that we're seeing on here.
He wrote a lot of City of Death, a lot of Sada.
Yeah, a lot of the things that we really love.
I think my post and creative choice would go to the heads, to
McDonald, all the others for doing what they're about to do.
I don't find many flaws in this.
I find a lot of triumphs against the almost insurmountable.
So I can't say, yeah, I agree with both of you and the individual
things, but I would also say that they're quite small in the
spectrum of it, because overall, I think the parsling things are
the things we don't get to see.
We just get the ripple effects of the thoughtlessness and there's
greed and the selfishness.
And of course, Douglas was giving us exactly that with his
villains all the way through.
And they are mono-dimensional because boring people just are.
I've always enjoyed the Graham Williams era of Doctor Who.
As much, though, as much as you...
Now that we've done this, now that we've done flight through
entirety through the Graham Williams era, I love it even more.
You know, because there are times I've written articles on Doctor
Who and analysed Doctor Who, but really, so this podcast is the
deepest I've analysed the Graham Williams era.
And more than any other era of Doctor Who, even when it goes wrong
you can see what they were trying to do.
It's thematically proud and fine, isn't it?
I mean, you can say that Hingecliff area, gosh, it looks so great
and there's so much high and low contrast.
There's so much divergence and so much to keep us engaged.
But looking from this lovely point of the obber floaty obelisk.
Um, shove up tod. very stifling in this thing.
There's so much to admire of where they wanted to go with it.
As you say, the treatment of the individual.
Yeah, it's I prefer it.
I think I probably prefer it as well.
I think I was quite down on the Hingecliff era and apparently I
was being contrarian perhaps, but it's nastier than it needed to
be.
Didn't treat the women very well.
Well, the women that were in it, you know, there weren't all that
many.
It just lacked fun.
And this, you're not going to feed Lalage into a garden compost.
No, you definitely aren't.
This is so witty and so funny.
There is a real joy to it.
And I just think that's spectacular.
That's what Doctor Who needs.
Doctor Who doesn't need to be a grim dark slog through various
Nazi inspired battlefields.
It should be fun.
And you know what?
I think as an era as a whole, this is the Doctor Who that makes
you think about the ideas it's raising the most.
We had some of that in the Pertwi era when Robert Sloman or Mac
Hawk would write.
You know, there'd be social commentary in those groups, didn't
really have it in the Hingecliffe era, with the Hingecliffe era
was, there are monsters there, we will kill them.
Whereas this, you know, sometimes the monsters aren't monsters and
sometimes the nice people are monsters.
And sometimes they're painted silver and we wonder how that
happened.
Yeah, but I'm still thinking about that.
I would say with the exception of underworld...
With the exception of underworld, every Graham Williams story
raises ideas that it doesn't answer itself and it doesn't answer
them deliberately because it's inviting you to think about them
without saying now you consider this.
And I think the greatest triumph of that is something we referred
to ages ago in the Sunmakers, when Terrence Sticks, who is a great
writer, but at that time was pushing out these Doctor Who
novelisation is really quickly.
Terrence Dix thinks about the death of Gatherer Hayden adds
something to that because Terrence Dix, who, as I say, great
writer, but at this point, sort of just writing what's on the
page.
It looks like he's read that and gone, you know what?
I think this needs to be commented on.
And if you can teach something about writing to one of Doctor
Who's greatest writers.
That's a job well done.
Picks of the week.
These are all things that we've mentioned.
I've got 3 and they are basically the novelisation of City of
Death by James Goss, the novelisation of Shada by Gareth Roberts
and the respective audiobooks of them, which are read by Lala
Ward.
If you've never read them, you really, really ought to.
They're just terrific.
And I was so delighted by James Goss, the city of death
novelisation.
I just think it's superb.
You need to read it, Richard.
It's really good.
I do, I suppose.
It's really good.
And I guess the other pick is license denied, which we've
mentioned a couple of times.
That's by Paul Cornell, who once named a character after me in a
new adventure, and it's a whole heap of stuff from fanzines and
things, but it includes 2 really important articles that we've
cited about the Williams era.
It's well worth a read.
It's a lovely thing.
Speaking of novels about naughty art, thefts, and things.
Watching this again, and indeed reading the sharder book, took me
back to through Gareth Roberts, too, someone who I think must have
been, if not known by, and I haven't checked whether Douglas Adams
and Kiro Bonfilioli, the British writer, were mates, but they're
certainly very similar people, just working slightly different
mediums.
Kill Bonfilioli is a British writer who wrote them Mordecai
trilogy.
It's about, as he said, this is not autobiographer
autobiographical, it's about some other portly dissolute, immoral
middle-aged art dealer who really doesn't care about anything but
having a great deal of fun.
They're terrific books.
And they feel like Douglas Adams for naughty grown-ups.
They can get very dark.
They're pretty much thrillers in chase books and crime novels, but
they're also hilarious.
And when they're funny, they're pure Douglas Adams.
Unfortunately, the writer drank himself to an early death.
So in a couple of the best books, there have been chapters written
by others, and it really clangs, but that's a very Douglas Adams
Drayne Williams experience as well.
So yes, I'll include him in the, well, Nathan will kindly include
him in the show notes.
But if you wanted to read more of the feel of this season, but
maybe for people more your own age now and still just be a part of
this for a bit longer, I really recommend this fellow.
There's not a lot to read, didn't publish very much, so
fantastic.
My pick is gently is holistic detective agency.
How did we not mention that?
Because we are so seen.
I think we may have alluded to it earlier.
But about, oh, 10 years?
afterwards?
Late 80s?
Douglas Adams, you know, flush with success after Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy, wrote 2 books, uh, Doke Gently's holistic
detective agency, and the long dark tea time of the soul.
Dirt Gently Holistic Detective Agency uses a lot of elements from
Shada, and a few elements from City of Death, including the
character of Chronotis.
And the fact he's got a time machine and what have you.
I certainly recommend the 1st book if you've enjoyed this season
it's very in keeping with the tone.
The 2nd book is more its own thing.
I like the 2nd book a lot.
The 2nd book's good as well. just quite a different beast.
Yeah, yeah.
Gently has a very interesting life at the moment because there was
a run of 4 episodes of the TV series on BBC 4 a few years ago.
They're very good, but they expunge some of the more fantastical
elements.
But they're a very good thing in their own right.
It's Stephen and Mangan, Asdirk Gently.
Richard Boyd, as McDuff, and Kate Beckensale, as Susan.
But yeah, I do recommend this book.
The books are...
They're very Douglas, but they're also very different from
hitchhikers because hitchhikers, of course, goes off on the
tangent because it's got the device of the book.
Whereas dirt gently.
Well, it is a confusing narrative, because it's Douglas Adams, it's
still much easier to follow.
And if you've ever found that you've tried reading hitchhikers and
you can't get your head into it.
Give Dirk gently a try because there will be things that happen in
it where you go, I don't see where this is going.
By the time you get to the last page, you'll understand exactly
where it was.
It's incredibly rewarding.
It's like a puzzle box.
It's really, really carefully plotted.
There has also been a very good radio adaptation by Dirk Maggs, who
was responsible for the tertiary quadronary and quintessential
phases of the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, but I recommend
starting with the book.
Dirk Gently's holistic detective agency.
Well, we've come to the end of Season 17, And you know what, for
the first, for the first time at the end of an era, I feel quite
sad to be saying goodbye to Graham Williams.
Thank you.
But we will be going into a brave new world as we touch down on
Brighton Beach for the leisure hive, and you may find more changes
next season as well.
Top will be back for the leisure hive, and Richard will be back
possibly when you least expect him.
Because I don't know yet, either.
Until then, please check us out online. flights through entirety
com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE
podcast on Twitter and go ahead and share us around with everyone
you know and love as well.
We'd love to have some new listeners And over on Bondfinger, we
have an array of commentary podcast recorded.
I don't know where we're up to at this juncture.
I will look it up before we do leisure hive.
Bondfinger.com Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger
cast on Twitter.
I like putting them both on at the same time in either ear and
they make a lot more sense.
One finger in one ear and us in the eye.
Unlike the end of the Williams era.
And until then, may none of your balls suck your brains out
through your forehead.
Thank you very much and good night.
Good night.
So I have to let the water out of this then.
That was fight through entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan
Jones, and Richard Stone.
This episode, chaotic intent, was recorded on the 6th of February
2016.
Flat your entirety will return on April 3rd.
They really will publish anything nowadays.
Check out the reviews for the Conservative Revolution by Corgi
Bernardi.
See you in 5 weeks.
Charter, 6th of February.
It's the Shada, usually, the Shada.
You know what, Nathan?
Do you know what I mean?