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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:09:31

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast made up of postgraduates talking to

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each other.

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We've tried to have it banned.

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I am Brendan.

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I'm Nathan, and I feel odd to the touch.

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I can't be cut with a razor, and I will make your spectrographs

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look nervous. for this story.

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What story are we doing?

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We are doing the loft story.

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Shut up.

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Thank you for that link, Kef McCulloch.

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Oh, isn't Keff terrible?

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I think he does a decent job of impersonating Duckley.

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It's very kind of his photo.

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Awful.

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It's terribly inappropriate music.

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And after we said goodbye to David Brierly, he's back this week on

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the video release.

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So you're all pretending that this exists in the visual medium

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which I'm here to, because this is my story, I've got this one.

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So I'm very happy to share that this canonical reason, referencing

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Nathan, dictates that this can't be seen because the time scoop

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cancelled this story from our version of reality.

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And you recall, the little story called The Five Doctors that came

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out, not long afterwards, and yet it felt like 20 years after this

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as far as the distance of narrative and style goes, and you

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suddenly see Tom and Lando in a punt.

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And instantly, my yearning, my nostalgia, which, what was the

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etymology is 2 Greek words meaning what, pain and home, home, it's

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like homesickness.

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Yeah, nice film, the pain of the loss, really, pain.

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Yeah. of them not being here anymore.

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And so, of course, as we know that, it does exist, but it never

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actually came out because the time was, sort of cancelled it.

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And so really, really, when Paul McGann goes back and for some

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reason has to go get Lala and K 9 from Gallifrane and then go off

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and have that adventure.

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That's probably the real version of this story.

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So can we just briefly contextualise this for those who don't know

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exactly about all of these overlapping versions?

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So this gets abandoned.

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We get the location footage done in some of the studio sessions

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and then it's abandoned.

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Yes, that's correct.

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So I think we got the location footage and the 1st studio

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sessions?

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70-something minutes of 150-something minutes that...

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Most of part one exist, but the other parts are about 17, 18

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minutes long.

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And that gets released on VHS with a script book.

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Do you remember that?

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I remember earlier draft of the scriptbook, yes.

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I remember bicycling to a video store in DY in order to kind of

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find it.

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And actually, this is a great point because Taunt would like to

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know about the myriad versions there are of Shalda.

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Well, gentlemen, we've arrived in Shada.

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My question is this.

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What version of Shada did you watch, read, or listen to?

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I watched the reedited version from the 1992 video release.

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I think the location work on this is absolutely stunning.

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Is this potentially the best six part Graham Williams story that

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never was?

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Well, I'll let you debate the pros and cons of the rest of this

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story and whether it actually is part of Doctor Who Continuity.

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And I guess I'll see you all in 1980.

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So, 100 years later, they do a version, and it's actually

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broadcast on the internet, and it's big finish 2003, audio

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starring Paul McGann as the doctor in Roman, who's by now

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president of Galafre, and it's a sort of flash animation thing.

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Into web flash animation, which is always so successful for a

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whole story.

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It's a bit rough, actually.

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And then there's the novelisation by Gareth Roberts in 2012.

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Which is what I used to review this story.

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Right.

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To me, that is now the canon version of this one.

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You know, I think we've had this conversation before, but I mean

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if you're saying this is not canon, Are you in some sense saying?

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Oh, it is, but it doesn't exist in a visual medium.

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But anyone who claims that it's not canon seems to me to be saying

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that this didn't happen in the way that the horns of Naimon

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actually happened.

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And given that spoiler alert, neither of them actually.

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It seems like a kind of fruitless argument.

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Possibly, yeah.

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But like all discussions of church like law, we could stay in this

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for a very long time, couldn't we?

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You could.

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I actually have a form to reconcile how this story is canon or

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what have you.

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Because that 2003 version, as Richard alluded to earlier.

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There was a new prologue written for that performed by Paul McGann

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where he goes back and picks up Romana and K9 and says we were

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taken out of time, but we should have had this adventure.

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So we need to go back and have it again.

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So in the original TV version of the 5 doctors.

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That is where the doctor's taken out of time.

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Shanda doesn't happen for the 4th doctor and the 8th doctor has to

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go back and do it.

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In the special edition of the 5 doctors.

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The time scoop puts them back in the punt at the time they left.

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So you can pick whichever version you like.

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Both of them happened.

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Both of them happen.

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My personal opinion of Doctor Who Canon and the comics and the

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audios and the stage plays and whatever else.

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And this is something I wrote into my 1st script for Planet

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Scarrow Audios.

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Everything happened somewhere.

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Which is a very Douglas Adams take on it.

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You know, it's like it's like the curator in Day of the Doctor.

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It's like, does it really matter how he got there?

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What's more important is that he's there.

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Does it really matter if Shada happened and how Shada happened?

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The important thing is that we have about 15 versions of it.

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It's kind of funny, but for me, like, before we leave a canon

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thing.

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The thing about the TV show that elevates it is that it's the

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thing that has an audience of 1000000s, it's the thing that you

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it's the format of the show that you can share with other people.

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You know, you can sit and watch it.

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Doing an audio or reading a book or a comic is a really solitary

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experience, but there's something shared.

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And so our memories of Doctor Who.

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And because it's so central, yeah, we're more likely to have seen

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a TV show than we are to have read a particular comic or a

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particular new adventure or a particular BBC book.

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And so that's the thing that we come back to, I think.

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There is one more version we haven't discussed, which is the

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animated version by Ian Levine.

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Oh, yes.

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Now, Ian developed this with a view to selling it to entertain to

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put out...

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Well, sorry, selling it to BBC worldwide to put out on the DVD.

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And apparently the reason that didn't happen was that sort of Ian

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did it off his own bat.

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And the problem was one of contracts because the way it was

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produced, if the BBC had bought it, they would have had to pay for

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it as an original drama and that wasn't in the budget of the DVD

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release.

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That would have also meant paying the Adams estate for an original

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drama, even if Adam's widow and his daughter had said, and look, no

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we don't want the money.

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It actually a contractual obligation, which is part of the reason

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it can get released.

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I have seen it.

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And this is going to lead me into a little story about a very

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controversial figure in Doctor Who Fandom, who is Ian Levine.

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Ian Lean's animated version features Lala Ward, John Leeson, Daniel

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Hill, Victoria Burgoyne, and Christopher Neam, all reprising their

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roles.

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It doesn't feature Tom.

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It features a friend of mine, Paul Jones, who's a voice artist and

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very good Tom impersonator.

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And Ian invited him round, along with a group of people, to watch

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a working print of Shada with the animated scenes cut in with the

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live action scenes and like, so it's live action where the live

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action exists and then animated to cover the bits that don't.

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Paul said to me, look, Ian's asked me if I want to take anyone.

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I don't think anyone in my family would be interested.

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A, I think A, I think you'll be interested in B. I don't know if

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there's going to be other people I know there.

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Would you mind coming along?

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Because, you know, I know Ian, but Ian's going to be talking to

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other people who needs to host. didn't you?

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I didn't dress up too I didn't dress up, dress up too fancy.

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But there wasn't anyone else from the cast there, but there were

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there were lots of people, including Warris Hussein.

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Wow.

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It was also similarly dressed.

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It was rather embarrassing for everyone.

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I talked to Morris Hussein about directing and said, you know, this

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was before I was working in television and how interested I was in

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going into television and he said how much he'd love to direct an

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episode of the new series.

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With whom do you both have to sleep to?

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Well, I'm pretty sure I flirted outrageously with Warris that

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you're saying, and I'm not entirely unsure he didn't flirt with

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me.

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Is there any other level of flirting?

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to be performed other than that.

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And so, yeah, we sat down and we watched it.

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And Paul said to me, after you watch it, I want an honest

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assessment of what you think of my Tom.

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And when we got out, I said, And when we got out, I said to him, if

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I'm giving you an honest assessment, Paul, you sound like season

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12, Tom, not season 17, Tom.

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That's the only difference.

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Oh, such kind gross.

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That was.

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Look, I'm devastated.

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I think the friendship would have ended right there.

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Not only that, but Paul had to record his line sitting across from

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Lala Ward.

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Was she poking and making finger gestures and doing the whole

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thing?

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At the end of the 1st scene, she just looked at him and said

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freaky.

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But they were naked, but that's strange.

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Now, something I would like to talk about is because Ian Levine

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gets a lot of flack and I'm not going to go into the recent things

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with the missing episode.

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We've talked about Ian before.

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I love Ian.

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Yeah, well, the thing is, Ian...

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Ian also showed us that night, a DVD special feature that had yet

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to be released.

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I just have no idea where this is going.

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Ian also showed us that night, this DVD teacher, and just asked

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please, no one mention it because I shouldn't really show it to

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anyone.

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We're having such a nice time blow that up.

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It's a lot of blood and gore.

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And anyway, I left and, you know, no one was said about it.

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And a few days later, I got a message from Paul saying, um, look

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I'm really sorry to ask you this, but someone told the guy who

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made the special feature that Ian showed it to us and Ian has

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asked me to ask you.

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It wasn't you.

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It wasn't me, and but Ian said Ian said to Paul, quite rightly.

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He's the only person I'd ever met before.

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Could you ask him?

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I can't imagine anyone else would have.

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And so I said I said to Paul, no, that's not the case.

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And then I thought, you know what?

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Ian Levine, a lot of people see him as this person who will just

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attack people online.

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He didn't do that.

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And he, so I actually, because at the time I was on Gallifro Bass

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which is an online forum, I found him on that and sent him a

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personal message saying, Ian, I want to assure you that I didn't

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tell anyone about it, but I also appreciate that I'm the obvious

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suspect.

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And I think, you know, it was very considerate of you to ask me

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through Paul.

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And I got a really lovely email back from him saying, you know

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what?

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You seem like a nice book.

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I didn't think it was you, but thank you for understanding my

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position.

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And yeah, I haven't had any other personal dealings with the

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match.

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Would you please post it?

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I haven't had any other personal dealings with the man.

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But that was my experience of being living.

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Nice.

249
00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:12.659
It is a lovely story, thank you.

250
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:15.779
On the topic of that animation, I'll just say Christopher Neem has

251
00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:17.460
gone insane and I won't say anything more.

252
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.080
Seek it out and watch it.

253
00:12:19.139 --> 00:12:22.379
The other 3 versions we haven't mentioned are obviously the light

254
00:12:22.379 --> 00:12:25.320
opera, the sculptural version.

255
00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:29.340
And the impressionistic dance version.

256
00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:32.340
Oh, yes, I was thinking of the fuzzy felt set, actually.

257
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:37.200
And don't forget Charles Kate Feldman's 13 hour film.

258
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:40.620
Yeah, the edit. featuring Peter Cushing, Rowan Atkinson, and

259
00:12:40.620 --> 00:12:41.279
Trevor Martin.

260
00:12:41.340 --> 00:12:42.779
Yes, that was awesome.

261
00:12:42.899 --> 00:12:45.659
Psychedelic.

262
00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.860
I wish we'd had Roan Atkinson as a doctor in some America.

263
00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:50.220
We do.

264
00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.019
Maybe we still will. properly.

265
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.240
No, Chibles castle.

266
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:54.899
Not just for Christmas.

267
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:55.860
No.

268
00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.639
Well, can we talk about how we have sort of said how wonderful

269
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:03.480
this story is, and if you don't know it, I have no idea why you're

270
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.519
listening to us, because it will make no sense at all.

271
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:10.259
But it is a beautiful thing and it is the... like a hat like

272
00:13:10.259 --> 00:13:10.440
that.

273
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:12.480
I should like a hat like that.

274
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:15.539
Don't you get, isn't it lovely that when Adams is talking about

275
00:13:15.539 --> 00:13:19.320
where to write this story and again, it's a 6 day rise.

276
00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:21.419
But he said, there's nowhere else in the world other than

277
00:13:21.419 --> 00:13:24.840
Cambridge where you could dress like this villain, panto villain

278
00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:25.679
and not be noticed.

279
00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:30.480
And no, no, no, no, have no one really pay you much attention, okay

280
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:31.379
it's Skagra.

281
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:36.419
But it's Scaroff, but it's every villain that, you know, we don't

282
00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:38.100
want to talk about weakness in Adam's style.

283
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:40.620
It's the same villain every time because he's talking about the

284
00:13:40.620 --> 00:13:45.539
overarching, mimetic quality of villainy, which is greed

285
00:13:45.539 --> 00:13:50.100
selfishness, narcissism, and suppressed self-loathing, because

286
00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:52.919
they don't read enough poetry and they didn't have the joy to go

287
00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:56.639
and do humanities at Cambridge and get really filthily drunk and

288
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.220
have lovely time meeting girls like Lana Ward.

289
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.559
And Victoria Burgoyne.

290
00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:03.960
Oh, Victoria Burgoyne.

291
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:05.639
She is amazing.

292
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:08.039
And she not only does she look like a Chanel ad.

293
00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:10.620
She pictures it if you can see her.

294
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:11.700
She on YouTube, isn't it?

295
00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:14.340
You can actually see bits of the performance without having to

296
00:14:14.340 --> 00:14:15.779
dash out and buy anything, can't you?

297
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.200
I don't know I just assume because I've seen it so many times in

298
00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:19.919
other mediums.

299
00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:23.399
But yeah, yeah, she's absolutely not perfect in this.

300
00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:26.279
She's gorgeous, whereas Chris Parsons, of course, is the Mary Sue

301
00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:27.360
and Douglas.

302
00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:30.000
He even likes Bark, like Douglas does.

303
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:32.759
I don't think they perform. anything wrong with the performance.

304
00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:34.200
I just think the character's really weird.

305
00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:36.840
But there's so much else going on in this and there's so many

306
00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:39.840
levels and we can talk about the antecedents, but this is the

307
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.480
apotheosis of Douglas's thoughts.

308
00:14:42.539 --> 00:14:46.440
Douglas's vision, you know, for his artistic, millie, of his

309
00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.340
artistic writing, and that it doesn't actually ever get seen, it's

310
00:14:50.340 --> 00:14:55.559
kind of perfect because, well, as we've already said, it, it's

311
00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.080
something that you can then go over and interpret, and we spend a

312
00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:00.779
lot more time thinking about this story than many others of the

313
00:15:00.779 --> 00:15:04.139
70s because it doesn't have that visceral quality.

314
00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:04.860
You don't think so?

315
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:06.539
I've spent a lot of time on this story.

316
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:08.100
Been going and reading the book.

317
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:10.620
I really don't like it.

318
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.559
Because there is always that question.

319
00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:14.220
Isn't there?

320
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.580
Is this the story that would have redeemed season 17?

321
00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:22.200
Is this going to be the great William season finale?

322
00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:24.720
And I just don't think it is.

323
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.659
And I think it...

324
00:15:28.019 --> 00:15:30.299
Well, we haven't seen Skagger actually do anything that mints

325
00:15:30.299 --> 00:15:31.200
about in Cambridge.

326
00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:35.159
No, look, I mean, part of it is, I think, due to the presentation

327
00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:36.779
the DVD presentation.

328
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:39.600
I have to say that I think the novelisation is really much more

329
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.639
successful and really enjoyable.

330
00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:46.019
But the TV thing that we have because Skagra's in the studio

331
00:15:46.019 --> 00:15:50.879
blocks that don't get shot because all of the climactic stuff, all

332
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:54.960
of the big, you know, episode 5 reversals, all of the things on

333
00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:59.580
the spaceship aren't there and it just narrated to us by Tom.

334
00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:04.379
What we get is the location stuff, which is wonderful, an absolute

335
00:16:04.379 --> 00:16:06.179
breath of fresh air after what?

336
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:11.639
Is it 3 successive stories without a frame of location work at

337
00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:11.820
all?

338
00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.600
So that would have gone some way to redressing the balance and

339
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:17.399
making the season a little bit more interesting.

340
00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:21.720
But like there's a kind of exhaustion about the whole thing.

341
00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:24.059
Like, I have to think the monsters would have been terrible.

342
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.159
It's beyond...

343
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:27.480
We don't get to see.

344
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:29.100
Well, I imagine they have to be.

345
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:34.620
It's beyond tiresome that all of the great geniuses in the entire

346
00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:37.080
galaxy are old white man.

347
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:40.139
That's horrifically bad There's lots.

348
00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:41.700
Of course he's got more important things to talk about.

349
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.500
I think he says, we know what villainy is.

350
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:47.759
It's like good to Sereni talking about nazism and Hitler, you know

351
00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.539
the Eichmann trials when she said the base of evil is banality.

352
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.340
Evil itself is actually really boring.

353
00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:54.240
That's where it comes from.

354
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:55.980
People are bored. thats why they're evil.

355
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.240
In terms of those scientists.

356
00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:59.460
Remember, they start off with young white men, so at least...

357
00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:00.059
Oh, yeah, okay.

358
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:01.740
But it is surprising.

359
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.740
It was Hannah Rent, sorry, not Guta Seren.

360
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:08.640
Gita, so when he talked about Albert Speer, Hitler's architect and

361
00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.579
Hannah Arrent was the New Yorker correspondent on the Eichman

362
00:17:11.579 --> 00:17:12.839
trials in the early 60s.

363
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.059
Playing the Judy Garland character from the film.

364
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:16.079
I just had to throw that.

365
00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:20.579
It is surprising that there aren't at least some women amongst

366
00:17:20.579 --> 00:17:22.619
those scientists because, of course, this is directed by Pennant

367
00:17:22.619 --> 00:17:23.039
Roberts.

368
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.740
Yeah, we have Victoria...

369
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:29.400
We have Victoria Bergon, but one of Pennant Roberts things was to

370
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:33.180
take one male role per script and turn it into a woman.

371
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.259
Like Marn.

372
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:35.160
Like man.

373
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:35.880
Or pantomime.

374
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:43.559
And later on, Preston in Warriors of the Deep.

375
00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:45.779
And they're all such shining examples, aren't they?

376
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:46.680
Yeah, thank good.

377
00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:47.759
No, I like man.

378
00:17:47.819 --> 00:17:50.039
Preston's pretty good as well.

379
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:52.500
Like when she's standing on Turlo, that's a fun scene.

380
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.460
She's with great hair.

381
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:54.720
But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

382
00:17:54.779 --> 00:17:56.519
I'm standing on Turlo.

383
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.779
Is that the name of this episode?

384
00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:00.779
I quite like the design of the Krags, because we do see one at the

385
00:18:00.779 --> 00:18:01.500
end of episode two.

386
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.599
Threatening the doctor.

387
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.759
Yeah, they would have had CSO overlays and all those of it.

388
00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:07.079
They've got their light up arms.

389
00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:08.400
They do, so do we all.

390
00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:11.099
Concentrating on villainies, not the point.

391
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:14.039
And I think Douglas Adams wanted us to think very little of the

392
00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:15.779
villainy because they are other bland.

393
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.559
They're just there to give us something to act against.

394
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:24.119
But everything that is in this is about Adam's take on the

395
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:24.539
universe.

396
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:26.160
And he's citing.

397
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:27.240
There's all these references.

398
00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:28.500
I'll go into it if you want to.

399
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:33.059
The big hits of the day, um, Hofstarter, you remember Douglas

400
00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:35.880
Douglas Hofstarter's book, Girdle.

401
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:37.200
There's notions of that.

402
00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:39.720
Thomas Pinchin's Gravity's Rainbow.

403
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:45.480
The whole over- king sense of the 60s search for the self and the

404
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:49.259
connection between selves and how that will build a world that

405
00:18:49.259 --> 00:18:52.859
needs that needs rescuing because the current one we had is so

406
00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:53.940
indolent and selfish.

407
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.259
But he then goes on.

408
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:59.099
I mean, there's references of this of post-yungian synchronicity.

409
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:03.420
And there's planetary movements of the spheres mentioned in this

410
00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:05.880
as in the little bouncing silver sphere, which is akin to air

411
00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:08.759
molecules and moving about, you know, kept taking.

412
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.059
No, it's just not it's not turning into compelling television for

413
00:19:12.059 --> 00:19:12.240
me.

414
00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:15.599
It does seem like there's a lot of space corridors and it does

415
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.299
seem like there's a lot of faffing about on spaceships.

416
00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:22.740
I have to say much as I love season 17, I'm a bit sick of that.

417
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:24.660
Really?

418
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.339
Yeah, a little bit.

419
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.099
It's going me, me, me, me, meme, meme, is it?

420
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:29.940
I think.

421
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:30.660
I don't get it.

422
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.640
I can watch you're saying, but I can't get enough of that.

423
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.680
Nathan, I do recommend. seek out the animated version.

424
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:40.380
Do you know, I did try to watch the animated version and the

425
00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:44.400
animation is really rough and Paul McGann...

426
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.079
No, no, no, not the Paul McGann version.

427
00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:47.640
I mean the Ian Levine anime version.

428
00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:48.960
The Paul McGo one's not much fun.

429
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:53.039
The Ian Levine version, the animation is about on par with the

430
00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.200
animation in the Ice Warriors DVD.

431
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:55.680
Okay.

432
00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:55.980
Yeah.

433
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:57.779
So that bad.

434
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:03.599
Because that's the, I kind, I, I found the video version to be a

435
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:04.319
disappointment.

436
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:07.859
You know, as you say, all the big reverses and all the big reveals

437
00:20:07.859 --> 00:20:11.700
are narrated by Tom, and I would just sit there and try and

438
00:20:11.700 --> 00:20:13.859
imagine to myself what that would have looked like.

439
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:17.400
The Paul McGann version helped me help me a little with that.

440
00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:23.160
But then this version that Ian had animated.

441
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:28.140
It really helps to sell those scenes and the scenes with Lala and

442
00:20:28.140 --> 00:20:29.160
Christopher Nene.

443
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.819
Despite the fact they were recorded on separate continents because

444
00:20:32.819 --> 00:20:34.200
Christopher Neem lives in America now.

445
00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:36.480
Still wearing the case.

446
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:37.799
Still wearing the cape and hat.

447
00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:40.440
He wears it in that Voyager episode he's in, doesn't he?

448
00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:44.220
Yeah, and he's in an episode of Babylon 5 as well. playing a very

449
00:20:44.220 --> 00:20:44.759
similar role.

450
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:48.359
He's actually playing a psychic, psychic police side.

451
00:20:48.539 --> 00:20:52.980
But their scenes are really compelling and really sell this idea

452
00:20:52.980 --> 00:20:57.839
of the loss of individualism because that is the central idea that

453
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:01.500
Scangrow wants no one to be an individual except himself and

454
00:21:01.500 --> 00:21:03.660
everyone will be his individual self.

455
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.259
And that is powerful.

456
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.019
And unfortunately, those scenes weren't recorded because we only

457
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:14.099
had the 1st studio recording block and they actually rehearsed the

458
00:21:14.099 --> 00:21:20.519
2nd, went to lunch, came back, and the doors to the studio were

459
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:20.880
locked.

460
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.220
The industrial action had started while they were at lunch.

461
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:23.880
Wow.

462
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:28.140
And the next studio session they could get was a week after

463
00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:31.500
broadcast was a week after the scheduled broadcast.

464
00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:34.319
I don't know if Graham Williams said, look, let's just have a

465
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.500
hiatus and then come back with the last 6 episodes, but yeah, the

466
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:41.519
decision was taken on the 10th of December to finish the season

467
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.799
with the Horns of Nimon instead.

468
00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:48.660
There was some story, and I don't know how true it was that, like

469
00:21:48.660 --> 00:21:50.099
there are conflicting accounts.

470
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:52.500
It's a bit like Nero and the Great Fire of Rome.

471
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:55.680
Some people say that John Nathan Turner did his level best to try

472
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:56.940
and salvage the story.

473
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:58.799
Yeah, there were 2 versions of it.

474
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:03.240
Yeah, and the other version was he was happy to let it go and to

475
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:06.960
get an extra 2 episodes for his 1st season.

476
00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:09.539
So he was the Fiona Walker all the time.

477
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.700
Yes, but we like we don't know which of those.

478
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:12.180
It's true.

479
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.660
Did he write the Tom Baker linking material for the DVD?

480
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:16.200
Yeah.

481
00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:20.099
That's very strange that, like, he's narrating it as if he's the

482
00:22:20.099 --> 00:22:22.200
doctor or something and it doesn't really work.

483
00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:24.299
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

484
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.240
There are people who criticise that and then and then praise the

485
00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:28.799
curator in Day of the Doctor.

486
00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:30.359
That, hey, that's the curator.

487
00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:31.500
It's the curator.

488
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:32.640
Okay, go.

489
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.240
It's canon.

490
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:34.259
Canon.

491
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:35.640
Yeah.

492
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.880
Is that where the idea for the curator comes from?

493
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.319
I had he always felt at home at museums.

494
00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:48.480
I had never heard that JNT hadn't wanted to make it.

495
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:51.059
His extra 2 episodes thing.

496
00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:55.259
I had just always heard was him saying, I don't want to do any 6

497
00:22:55.259 --> 00:22:55.740
parters.

498
00:22:55.740 --> 00:22:58.200
And he also had Barry Letts to back him up because Barry Letts was

499
00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:01.440
incoming as executive producer. knew more than anyone else how

500
00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.119
horrendous 6 parties are.

501
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.019
Yeah, yeah.

502
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.900
I think when JNT was trying to remount it.

503
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:12.180
He was actually toying with the idea of resripting it and making

504
00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:13.200
it a four-parter.

505
00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.140
Yeah, he was taking all the jokes out, probably.

506
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:19.740
Yeah, take the jokes off of science, scientificating.

507
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:22.559
And I think the only reason it didn't come off was cast

508
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:25.920
availability, and I can't say who wasn't available in particular

509
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:28.799
but I think some of the guest cast weren't available, and it just

510
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.279
became a matter of, well, we can't wait to do this, and we can't

511
00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:35.759
have this as we can't have this as a moveable feast while we're

512
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:37.259
planning our season story arc.

513
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.140
No, it was probably just better to cut the cord, you know?

514
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:40.920
Yeah, yeah.

515
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:44.460
How much energy can you put into that when you currently don't

516
00:23:44.460 --> 00:23:46.980
have workable scripts which we'll discuss?

517
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.400
Williams was still very proud of this story and you can say that

518
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:54.299
in genuine embitteredness that came of this cancellation and the

519
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:54.839
exhaustion.

520
00:23:54.900 --> 00:24:00.359
And finally, bringing are about to bring around what he really

521
00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:04.079
wanted to do, which would have been his next season, had he not

522
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:06.420
shuffled off and said goodbye.

523
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.519
You know all about that plans for the future?

524
00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:10.079
He had plans for another season.

525
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:12.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah, with some interesting stories and a whole new

526
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:12.599
take.

527
00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:13.319
No bid meat.

528
00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.740
I knew he wasn't going to get Douglas back, but the impression

529
00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:20.160
that Douglas left in the series and with the coupling of the

530
00:24:20.160 --> 00:24:23.759
doctor and the companion in this one was apparently something that

531
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:26.819
he felt was really strong and the BBC felt was really strong and

532
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:27.839
they wanted to see it continue.

533
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:32.160
But this whole thing, like these 3 years have been this kind of

534
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:35.519
limping towards the finish line all the way through, you know

535
00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:39.059
these constant stories get cancelled, scripts fall through.

536
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:40.559
There's suddenly no money.

537
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:45.660
Like I've just been re-listening. to some of our season 15

538
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:50.759
podcasts because I'm kind of tragic and a little bit self

539
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:50.759
obsessed.

540
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:56.099
And, you know, that is just this sort of terrible tale of fighting

541
00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:59.579
against production problems and having those production problems

542
00:24:59.579 --> 00:25:03.359
really clearly visible in what makes it to screen.

543
00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:07.920
And so, you know, there's flashes of genius through all of this

544
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:12.779
stuff, season 16 is virtually free of that.

545
00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:15.000
Well, there's the Armageddon factor.

546
00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:18.960
But here finally, he succumbs to the production problems in such a

547
00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:21.900
way that a whole story just doesn't end up happening.

548
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:27.059
And unfortunately, as we've observed in the last few episodes, this

549
00:25:27.059 --> 00:25:29.039
is the story he was saving up to make.

550
00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:34.140
You know, the previous stories suffer visually, uh, and in a

551
00:25:34.140 --> 00:25:38.279
budgetary way because he's saving up to make this story.

552
00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:43.140
So it goes and it takes a whole heap of like beautiful location

553
00:25:43.140 --> 00:25:47.759
footage, just witty dialogue, all of that sort of stuff with it

554
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.480
just goes.

555
00:25:49.079 --> 00:25:55.259
I've just been reading through my notes and John Nathan Turner. did

556
00:25:55.259 --> 00:26:00.059
actually send revised scripts to Pennant Roberts to create 250

557
00:26:00.059 --> 00:26:01.980
minute episodes out of Charter.

558
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:02.579
Oh, okay.

559
00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:04.920
And the only reason it didn't happen was Studio Space.

560
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:06.960
Just like the original.

561
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:07.559
Yeah, yeah.

562
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:10.680
And when that happened, Christ forbid me, it actually said, well

563
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:12.960
look, it's not really in keeping with the tone we're going for now

564
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:13.319
either.

565
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.059
Because it's fun.

566
00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:20.279
And, you know, also with that broadcast date, it would have been

567
00:26:20.279 --> 00:26:25.140
screened in the middle of the e-space trilogy. fantastic.

568
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.059
Imagine the linking material for that.

569
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:30.240
Doctor, you've changed out of your clothes.

570
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:32.819
Oh, and we're on an identical version of Cambridge in this green

571
00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:33.299
space.

572
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.099
Oh, oh, oh, oh God.

573
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.680
It would have been a lovely holiday special thing.

574
00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:39.240
Just like the Star Wars holiday special.

575
00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:39.839
Can you imagine?

576
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:42.480
Actually, B Arthur would have been terrific.

577
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:43.200
Yeah.

578
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:44.940
Just a fact.

579
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:45.480
Yeah.

580
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:47.339
It's like it's a problem. not a girl.

581
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.500
We needed a girly villain.

582
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:51.480
Look how great Myra...

583
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:52.140
Yeah, she was.

584
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.220
Oh, yeah.

585
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.380
We just need a Janet Ellis back.

586
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.640
Actually, Susan Jamison.

587
00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:01.680
She was meant to be a villain in the pertly era.

588
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:02.759
She never got to be a villain.

589
00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:04.680
She had to settle for Mrs. Wimsy.

590
00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:05.819
Yeah, sorry.

591
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:07.980
She had to settle for Mrs. Wibsy.

592
00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:08.880
Yeah she did.

593
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.500
Huh?

594
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:12.480
I didn't know who we talking about now.

595
00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:14.519
In the hornet's nest audios.

596
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.200
She is Tom's companion.

597
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:18.000
His housekeeper, Mrs. Whoops.

598
00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:19.200
We have met her.

599
00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:20.460
We've talked about her before, I think.

600
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:22.200
They're not very good butt, are they?

601
00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:25.559
They get better in the 3rd season when they're more full cast.

602
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:27.599
Oh, God, they did 3 seasons.

603
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:28.440
They did 3 seasons.

604
00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:29.279
Paul Mars.

605
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:33.299
Yeah, Paul Mars, because and you get David Troughton in playing

606
00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:36.000
the 2nd doctor. in the 3rd season.

607
00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:36.960
Did he refuse to ever do that?

608
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:38.339
Oh, it wasn't him.

609
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.200
It was BF who refused to cast him.

610
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.720
Well, no, no, because BFD cast him.

611
00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:46.559
I think there is a conceit in the story as to why he sounds

612
00:27:46.559 --> 00:27:46.920
different.

613
00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:47.759
Yeah.

614
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.640
And I think maybe that's the only way.

615
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:52.680
They short about the time differential.

616
00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:53.519
Oh, yeah.

617
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.059
The good thing is this is 1979 and Patrick Troughton's not dead

618
00:27:57.059 --> 00:27:57.299
yet.

619
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.420
It seems a good time to talk about the rest of the cast.

620
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:04.200
We've already praised Victoria Burgoyne. was her 1st telly and she

621
00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:05.460
doesn't remarkably well.

622
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.420
Referencing herself, but...

623
00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:10.980
I hate that outfit.

624
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.400
I hate her hair She lets her hair down, I think, and then starts

625
00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.480
to look more human and stuff.

626
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:17.819
I don't think it's that flattering an outfit.

627
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.799
Perfect 70s cool.

628
00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:20.579
I think love.

629
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:24.599
Well, you see, that's the thing. you know, Lala is very glam

630
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:25.859
because she's going out on a pond.

631
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.759
Claire's a scientist.

632
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:29.880
So Claire is wearing something practical and something safe for

633
00:28:29.880 --> 00:28:30.299
the lap.

634
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.359
That's why she's got a hair tied back and that's why she's wearing

635
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:34.680
quote unquote, sensible clothes.

636
00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:39.359
You don't mess about with a spectrograph with your Lally's all

637
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.359
laying down in your hair or Uriah all of a mess, do you?

638
00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:43.200
Well, fair enough.

639
00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:47.640
And she has that wonderful bit towards the end of the story where

640
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.220
the doctor says, ask me who Sally Avon is and because she's got

641
00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:51.180
the professor's memory.

642
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.819
Oh, well, now he was a great criminal in prison century.

643
00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:58.680
And she does it so perfectly in that you know it's unusual that

644
00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:01.680
she's saying it, but she's still perfectly comfortable saying it

645
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.900
and she's got that beautiful scene with the professor did

646
00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:08.339
something to me, did something to my mind, which, yes, you can

647
00:29:08.339 --> 00:29:10.740
interpret that as innuendo.

648
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:14.339
But she plays it very well in that she's slightly disturbed by it

649
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:16.680
but she's not terrified and not screaming about it.

650
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:19.920
You know, she's a scientist. interesting thing that happened.

651
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:23.279
She's quite good with the professor too in those scenes.

652
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:24.960
Yes. about the light fun.

653
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:27.599
A lovely Dennis.

654
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:29.279
We think he's pretty good, don't he?

655
00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:29.880
He is good.

656
00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:30.900
He is terrific.

657
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:35.400
Pennant would bring him back in a few years. as an android.

658
00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:37.319
Yeah, oh, no, he's great.

659
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:38.880
And okay, you know what?

660
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:43.619
The 2 lumps, no sugar stuff does start to wear a bit thin halfway

661
00:29:43.619 --> 00:29:44.160
through the first.

662
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.720
I can't remember how I worked about.

663
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:46.980
There is a logic in it somewhere.

664
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.579
Maybe it's the lumpiness of milk, but sorry.

665
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:51.119
It is funny.

666
00:29:51.180 --> 00:29:52.740
I think it is actually a funny thing.

667
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:53.640
The whole thing's funny.

668
00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:55.019
It has this lovely lightness of touch.

669
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:56.099
It goes along.

670
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:58.799
Okay, it's HD Wills, the door in the wall. you ever read that?

671
00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:04.500
It's a rooms with a door on it and that's a spaceship thing that a

672
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:06.299
time spec- it's the same background.

673
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:07.740
I mean, it's not actually that much funner.

674
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:10.500
It doesn't matter about antecedents for this thing because this is

675
00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:12.599
about coming together.

676
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:14.519
I have lots of different ideas.

677
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:15.119
It works.

678
00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:16.859
It works all the way through.

679
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.140
I can't find a dead moment in it.

680
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:22.440
Once again, you know, Graham Williams is doing something new with

681
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.859
the time lords, along with Douglas, because Douglas's initial germ

682
00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:29.160
of the idea was how to time lords punish their criminals.

683
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:33.539
You know, we saw one dematerialised once ages go, what does that

684
00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:34.019
actually mean?

685
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:37.619
and what do they do with their own kind who are criminals, et

686
00:30:37.619 --> 00:30:38.400
cetera, et cetera.

687
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.539
And that was the German B idea.

688
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:42.420
I like that he's saying that even time lords don't know their own

689
00:30:42.420 --> 00:30:45.480
full story and don't know how powerful they actually are.

690
00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:46.319
Yes.

691
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:51.359
And yeah, I love the idea that we've got other timelords out in

692
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.740
the universe who like the doctor.

693
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:55.019
They're not trying to take over planets.

694
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:57.359
You know, this is a guy who's just decided, oh, I'm going to

695
00:30:57.359 --> 00:30:58.079
retire to Earth.

696
00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.000
Now, the thing is he has to stay in exile.

697
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:01.140
He has to lay low.

698
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:05.880
But, you know, he hasn't gone off to a craggy moon.

699
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:07.920
He's gone, oh, you know...

700
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:11.160
I'll just go off and sit here.

701
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.380
And as he says, you know, everyone's so discreet.

702
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.500
No one's ever going to say, hold on, haven't you been here for 300

703
00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:16.799
years?

704
00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:19.019
They'll just think, no, that can't possibly be right.

705
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:20.160
That's very Douglas, you know.

706
00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:22.500
It's the someone else's problem field.

707
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.400
Yeah.

708
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:29.339
And that's other, and it is such a lovely portrayal.

709
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:32.880
You know, he does get cross occasionally and you do see a little

710
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.819
bit of fire in him like, what have you done with my machine?

711
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.940
But most of the time, he's really sweet and really gentle, but it

712
00:31:38.940 --> 00:31:39.779
doesn't feel forced.

713
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.460
Yeah, yeah.

714
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:44.940
Yeah, no, it is a really likeable performance and he's a great

715
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:45.240
character.

716
00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:50.099
I was looking again at Hofstadter's book and how he talks about

717
00:31:50.099 --> 00:31:52.980
the propagations of mathematics, micro and macro.

718
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:56.579
So, you know, that the clouds in your coffee take the same form as

719
00:31:56.579 --> 00:31:58.140
the spirals of the Milky Way.

720
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.440
You could say, well, that's a very vain approach, Carly Simon.

721
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:04.920
But it's exactly what you're saying.

722
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:10.440
The statistically predictable quotient of mass, the action of mass

723
00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.779
is yet individually random and pointless.

724
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:17.339
Dr. Norman will win by their randomness, by their apparent

725
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:20.880
pointlessness, by their unpredictability, and by the generation of

726
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:23.519
joy that comes from chaotic intent.

727
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.420
The villains are really, and this one as well.

728
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:31.440
I think it's unfair to say that they're dull white men because the

729
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:33.240
dull white men are the ones with the power.

730
00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:35.279
That's why he gets them to play villains.

731
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:38.880
The reason we only get Myra Francis is a villain is because it's

732
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:40.500
not what Douglas was trying to tell us.

733
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.099
And yes, it makes more fun to watch some variation.

734
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:48.359
But it's because the Nietzsche, Nietzschean, I should say, and the

735
00:32:48.359 --> 00:32:51.900
narcissistic Alistair Crowley like similes that are going all

736
00:32:51.900 --> 00:32:52.259
through.

737
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:55.079
White guys rule and they're bloody awful and they're taking away

738
00:32:55.079 --> 00:32:56.160
the money from Cambridge.

739
00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:58.440
They're taking away, look what they're doing to the BBC through

740
00:32:58.440 --> 00:32:59.940
strike actions through all the rest of it.

741
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:03.960
Petty power plays are destroying the fun in the world and they're

742
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:05.220
white blokes who are doing it.

743
00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:08.039
Well, I mean, those signs...

744
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:08.819
Did we say?

745
00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:09.599
Yeah, yeah.

746
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:12.839
I mean, I mean, I really was referring to those scientists who

747
00:33:12.839 --> 00:33:15.480
have had their minds emptied, you know, and are living in the

748
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:16.079
think tanks.

749
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.900
But at the same time, they were BBC producers.

750
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:22.019
At the same time, they've also contributed to this project.

751
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.519
Yeah, yeah.

752
00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:25.799
Yeah, they're the victims of the...

753
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:27.900
They're the victims, but at the same time, they've helped him

754
00:33:27.900 --> 00:33:28.559
create it.

755
00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:29.220
Yeah.

756
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:30.059
You know?

757
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:34.079
Whereas you've got, actually, you do have attention as

758
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:34.619
scientists.

759
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:37.680
So you've got these scientists who've created the brain drain.

760
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:39.539
Yes, the tension of something.

761
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.220
I do like creative.

762
00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:42.900
Spin them flange, isn't it?

763
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:47.579
I do like creative nouns like, oh my god. and 0 my god, get the

764
00:33:47.579 --> 00:33:48.539
thong of spiders.

765
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:53.339
No, I collect huntsmen and put them out in garden.

766
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:54.720
And what about spiders?

767
00:33:56.339 --> 00:34:02.160
But meanwhile on earth. that red cape is always trolling around

768
00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:06.839
you have Chris and Claire as scientists who are curious

769
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:07.380
scientists.

770
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.900
They find this immensely powerful object.

771
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.480
And don't attempt to use it for anything evil.

772
00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:14.760
They attempt to research it and learn about it and find out more.

773
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:18.480
Mm, there's so much joy.

774
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:21.599
You know, I don't think that's necessarily an idea that's taken to

775
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:23.039
a massive conclusion.

776
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:27.239
Well, they the human versions of the doctor and Romana.

777
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.820
In fact, the child versions.

778
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:32.940
I'd like to think that they would be embarking on their own much

779
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:37.260
smaller universe fractal of the Dr. Romana's journey.

780
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:42.780
I like how Gareth makes there be a romantic thing between them in

781
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:43.320
the novel.

782
00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:45.480
Didn't you find that in this story?

783
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:46.800
I mean, there is intended to be.

784
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:50.099
It's also underplayed. and that kind of thing.

785
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.079
It's very Ian and Barbara.

786
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.599
Oh, marvellous.

787
00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:56.280
We've actually got Oh, wow.

788
00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:01.199
We've even got 360 degree story arcing. right back to the

789
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:01.380
beginning.

790
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.280
Yeah.

791
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:05.099
I wouldn't be surprised to talk us had that in mind.

792
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:10.079
It's a time lord, an old man who's living hidden on earth and he's

793
00:35:10.079 --> 00:35:13.019
discovered by these 2 educators.

794
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:14.159
Oh my god.

795
00:35:14.219 --> 00:35:16.260
That's crazy, is it?

796
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:16.920
There he is.

797
00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:18.000
My goodness, man.

798
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:21.000
Douglas was like a huge Doctor Who fan from the very beginning

799
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:23.400
because he shamelessly ripped off Darling.

800
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:24.119
Master Plan.

801
00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:24.780
Yeah, yeah.

802
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.059
And that was, he said that's one of his earliest memories.

803
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.519
Oh, TV, yeah.

804
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:33.179
I'm putting Gene Marsh on a trampoline as one of his earliest

805
00:35:33.179 --> 00:35:33.780
designers.

806
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.119
Yes, well, who hasn't felt like that?

807
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.420
Stephen and Peter Perv is something just because, you know, he's

808
00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:41.820
got lovely bouncy hair in those days, so he had to do it as well

809
00:35:41.820 --> 00:35:44.820
but I don't, why didn't they put Billy on a trampoline?

810
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:45.599
He would have broken.

811
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.179
Some of the best toys do.

812
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:51.659
You've seen that washing machine with a brick in it, I trampoline

813
00:35:51.659 --> 00:35:52.079
haven't you?

814
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:52.800
Yes, I have.

815
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:57.000
I think that they're Douglas Adams theory contained in them.

816
00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:59.340
I went to university with a chat.

817
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.099
I did this class called Electronic Arts as an elective.

818
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:04.739
That's where your funding money's gone to this.

819
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:08.820
And I was sort of doing the most conventional degree in that when

820
00:36:08.820 --> 00:36:10.920
we were going around the room, people were saying, oh, you know

821
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:12.539
I'm doing electronics art in new media.

822
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.760
I'm doing flash animation, I'm doing this.

823
00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.539
They get around to me.

824
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:17.820
Oh, I'm doing a bachelor of arts in English, and the tutor

825
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:20.579
literally said, and what else?

826
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:21.960
And like, no, just that.

827
00:36:22.019 --> 00:36:22.679
What are you doing here?

828
00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:23.519
Oh, it's an elective.

829
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.239
Oh, okay, right.

830
00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:29.639
One of the guys who was, I think he must have been doing some kind

831
00:36:29.639 --> 00:36:30.420
of drama degree.

832
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:35.579
The topic was the escape machine, and we had to do something about

833
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:36.659
the escape machine.

834
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.860
It could be a video, it could be an animation.

835
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:38.519
I did a short film.

836
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:44.940
His escape machine, he would get broken down appliances and smash

837
00:36:44.940 --> 00:36:46.079
them with a sledgehammer.

838
00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:52.079
So his final piece was behind Plexiglass screens out the back.

839
00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:54.000
I was going to say, it could there could be a bit of offshooting

840
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:55.559
in this could be painful.

841
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:56.400
He was very safe.

842
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.420
He wore goggles and everything.

843
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:01.019
His final thing was to actually get his mother's old washing

844
00:37:01.019 --> 00:37:03.719
machine, which was always breaking down when he was a kid. he

845
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:06.059
bought his mother a new he bought his mother a new washing

846
00:37:06.059 --> 00:37:06.420
machine.

847
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.159
So he got the old washing machine.

848
00:37:08.219 --> 00:37:12.119
He got the sledgehammer and just took 5 minutes to take it apart.

849
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:13.860
You called it Medea, didn't he?

850
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.019
Oh God, I don't know what he called it, but it was incredible.

851
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.420
He played that on the video, didn't he?

852
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:22.260
It was incredibly odd.

853
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.300
You know, we were undergraduates talking to each other and they

854
00:37:24.300 --> 00:37:29.039
tried to have it back. kind of like this podcast, really.

855
00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:32.699
They were also the cute pair of skater boys who I could never tell

856
00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:34.679
that they were just mates, or if they were a couple who

857
00:37:34.679 --> 00:37:38.639
hyperventilated as part of their final, as part of their final

858
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:41.639
presentation for the escape machine and collapsed on the floor.

859
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:44.460
It was also called Sunburst, you know, when it was 1st written

860
00:37:44.460 --> 00:37:46.559
that's the, that was the acting title of this story.

861
00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:48.780
It was also called The Brain Steelers.

862
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:54.539
Yeah, well, someone I know was in Cambridge and told me proudly

863
00:37:54.539 --> 00:37:58.679
that he was in the background of a scene of Doctor Who and the

864
00:37:58.679 --> 00:37:59.579
Brain Stealers.

865
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:03.179
And I think he was there during that pickup, you know, where

866
00:38:03.179 --> 00:38:07.199
Skagra picks up the guy outside the Palm in Cambridge.

867
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:11.280
And of course, Gareth makes that in his novelisation into a gay

868
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:15.000
pickup, the guy that he picks up is gay and just thinks that he's

869
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:18.420
being picked up by his scagger and his cape and sort of hat.

870
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:21.719
And my friend was very sort of pleased with himself about being in

871
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:26.219
the background of this and I had to gently inform him that the

872
00:38:26.219 --> 00:38:27.420
story never been made.

873
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.639
I will, I will say, possibly, this is a great point to close this

874
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:32.880
out.

875
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:34.199
It has been broadcast.

876
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:38.940
The VHS version has been broadcast by UK TV in Australia during

877
00:38:38.940 --> 00:38:40.019
one of their repeat runs.

878
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:40.619
Wow.

879
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:43.019
They broad they just broadcasted as an...

880
00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:44.039
Tom, the Tom thing.

881
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:45.059
As an omnibus version.

882
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.199
Oh my goodness.

883
00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:46.980
How would that have been?

884
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:47.460
worked?

885
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.260
I've never been able to watch it all the way through.

886
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:51.300
You stop and have blue brakes.

887
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.340
Oh, well, they have that.

888
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.119
They have ads.

889
00:38:54.179 --> 00:38:54.960
Oh, yeah.

890
00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:56.280
But there you go.

891
00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:58.079
Australia leading the way for Doctor Who again.

892
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.340
Backwardly.

893
00:38:59.400 --> 00:38:59.699
Yes.

894
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.800
Well, we're doing everything else back with them.

895
00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:02.159
Yes.

896
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:05.219
Jenny Laird awards, gentlemen.

897
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.579
I have one and I kind of jump the gun a little bit, but I do want

898
00:39:08.579 --> 00:39:11.159
to mention friend of the podcast, Fiona, who wants to give the

899
00:39:11.159 --> 00:39:14.039
Jenny Laird award to something that we mentioned in Nightmare of

900
00:39:14.039 --> 00:39:19.440
Eden at the beginning of episode 4, the Incredibly Camp Spangley

901
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:25.679
sequined guards who get variously hugged to death by the

902
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:26.460
mandrals.

903
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:30.420
They do feel like they're from Vidal Sassoon's blow bar.

904
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:31.559
They do.

905
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:33.179
They really are quite magnificent.

906
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:37.980
It is awfully sweet how the how the mandrells just sort of wave

907
00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:39.840
their arms at people and they fall over.

908
00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:42.659
They're clearly meant to be kind of shredding them with their

909
00:39:42.659 --> 00:39:44.760
claws, but it never really.

910
00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:48.000
As you say, it's the overpowering scent of that fungal underarm.

911
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:49.619
That's it.

912
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:51.960
But I think that's almost certainly it.

913
00:39:52.019 --> 00:39:56.940
But I do think that the thing that I think is a puzzling creative

914
00:39:56.940 --> 00:40:02.760
choice is, I don't think Doctor Who is about spaceships, and I

915
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:04.440
don't think it's about science fiction.

916
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:08.340
And here, Doctor Who has turned into a show, set on various

917
00:40:08.340 --> 00:40:12.719
spaceships, all of which have really kind of unimpressive

918
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:16.260
corridors and things, as you pointed out at the time.

919
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:20.880
And so I think, although I love this season to death, visually it

920
00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:27.480
looks exhausted, there's no location footage for 12 consecutive

921
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:31.500
episodes, we're in the studio in really kind of cheaply realised

922
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:38.519
sets and everything's brown, you know, it's, it's ties.

923
00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:42.119
There's that marvellous line from, um...

924
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:45.360
There's that fantastic line from Georgette Hire in the great

925
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:48.840
Sophie, when she says, you're doing it to Brian.

926
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:50.940
Sophie.

927
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:54.900
And it means over baking. was an 18th century. mine that ladies

928
00:40:54.900 --> 00:40:56.340
used, allegedly.

929
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.460
But I do, I do believe she was actually also referring to the

930
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:00.360
Williams era.

931
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:00.960
Yes, yes.

932
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:04.500
My puzzling creative choice. probably won't be a surprise to

933
00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:04.800
anyone.

934
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:10.860
It's the decision to bring back Alan Bromley as a director.

935
00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:14.760
Because, yeah, he didn't do a bad job on the Time Warrior.

936
00:41:14.820 --> 00:41:17.639
That's the most heinous thing that's happened this season for

937
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:17.880
you.

938
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:20.159
Um, yeah, yeah.

939
00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:22.380
It really is because That means the rest of it must have been

940
00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:22.619
pretty good.

941
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:23.159
Yeah.

942
00:41:23.219 --> 00:41:24.000
Oh, you know what?

943
00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:25.559
Because he doesn't do a bad job.

944
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:28.619
In terms of what we see on screen.

945
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.280
He does a bad job in terms of how he treated the actors.

946
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.099
Yeah, he's a bad job coalescing his performers to care about what

947
00:41:35.099 --> 00:41:35.820
they're doing.

948
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:37.199
Yeah, or be integrated, yeah.

949
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:40.380
But, you know, at this point he was semi-retired.

950
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:46.260
Graham Williams has been in a constant struggle for all 3 of his

951
00:41:46.260 --> 00:41:48.659
years as producer. for quality.

952
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.519
And we've had Michael Hayes directing.

953
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:55.380
We do have some new directors as well.

954
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.260
We have Ken Greve, we have Kenny McBain, who are both new

955
00:41:58.260 --> 00:41:58.679
directors.

956
00:41:58.739 --> 00:41:59.400
They do a good job.

957
00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:01.260
We will have terrific Roberts.

958
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:01.920
Terrific drunks.

959
00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:03.900
That really helps too.

960
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:06.059
And we've got old hands like Christopher Barry.

961
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:10.019
Now, Christopher Barry is an old hand is much better than Alan

962
00:42:10.019 --> 00:42:11.280
Bromley as an old head.

963
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:18.480
I just don't understand why such an inexperienced director, in

964
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:19.199
terms of Doctor Who?

965
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:21.000
He'd only done one other.

966
00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:24.179
He'd only done one other, and that was not a special effects

967
00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:26.699
intensive story as we discussed at the time. you know, that was

968
00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:27.300
mediaeval.

969
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:29.340
This had model shots.

970
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.599
This had lasers.

971
00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:32.099
This had all studio.

972
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:38.280
We really needed someone who was confident with those things.

973
00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:41.460
Now, you could say he's confident with all studio because he

974
00:42:41.460 --> 00:42:44.159
worked in the early days of television, but things had moved on so

975
00:42:44.159 --> 00:42:45.179
very much.

976
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:49.199
I mean, all that Quantel stuff. was pretty much left the visual

977
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:49.860
effects department.

978
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.440
Alan Bromley just kind of said, oh, you're doing a thing, you do

979
00:42:52.440 --> 00:42:52.980
your thing.

980
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:57.360
You know, there was no consultation between them about, what do

981
00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:58.619
you want this to look like, Alan?

982
00:42:58.679 --> 00:42:59.460
He didn't care.

983
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:03.300
So he didn't care about special effect visuals.

984
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:05.579
He didn't care about the actors.

985
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:09.059
What did he care about?

986
00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:10.019
Why was he there?

987
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.340
The bar.

988
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:12.900
Paycheque.

989
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:16.019
And this is something I forgot to mention during Nightmare of Even

990
00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:17.460
so I'll mention it now because it is relevant.

991
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:21.179
Because the crew all went out and had these t-shirts made

992
00:43:21.179 --> 00:43:22.139
afterwards.

993
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.059
Bring back Billy Hartnell.

994
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:30.000
No, but the makeup designer, Joan Stribling, still has her t-shirt

995
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:35.760
and it's based on one of the final lines of the serial, and the t

996
00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.440
shirt is purple with big gold letters.

997
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:39.719
I'm glad the nightmare is over.

998
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.340
Oh, wow.

999
00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:44.639
But yeah, that's my award.

1000
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:47.639
Not necessarily Alan Bromley himself, but just the decision.

1001
00:43:47.699 --> 00:43:49.320
Don't worry, he's dead.

1002
00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:50.519
I know, but still.

1003
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:53.280
The choice to have him in there.

1004
00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:54.059
Yeah.

1005
00:43:54.179 --> 00:43:55.380
I don't understand.

1006
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.820
Yeah, I'm amazed that Graham Looms was still able to breathe by

1007
00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:00.719
the end of this season.

1008
00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:02.880
I think that's absolutely true.

1009
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:09.719
It's just been 3 really horrifically difficult years. you know, my

1010
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:13.500
puzzling creative choice is the BBC boffins, but I get where

1011
00:44:13.500 --> 00:44:14.159
they're coming from.

1012
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:17.880
I think my choice would simply be really the state of anarchy in

1013
00:44:17.880 --> 00:44:18.360
the UK.

1014
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:21.539
It's led to this, but I don't know, it's weak point, isn't it?

1015
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:25.260
But I would have loved Douglas and Williams too, have continued

1016
00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:25.500
on.

1017
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:29.099
I know that Adams wasn't going to stay for the next season, but

1018
00:44:29.099 --> 00:44:32.280
they were putting together where this was going to go and they

1019
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.280
were looking at arcing this because it's one of the few shows

1020
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:36.000
where you can do that.

1021
00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:36.780
Yes.

1022
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:38.099
Back in the day.

1023
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.719
Oh, well, there was upstairs downstairs.

1024
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:42.300
But, you know, this could do it anywhere.

1025
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:43.619
So, yeah, they got it.

1026
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:45.059
They were both really clever men.

1027
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:49.619
And we underestimate, oh, well, we don't, but we don't always give

1028
00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:53.039
credit to just how much of creative work Williams was doing in

1029
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:53.880
this season.

1030
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.539
He wrote most of the things that we're seeing on here.

1031
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.539
He wrote a lot of City of Death, a lot of Sada.

1032
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.480
Yeah, a lot of the things that we really love.

1033
00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:07.320
I think my post and creative choice would go to the heads, to

1034
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.260
McDonald, all the others for doing what they're about to do.

1035
00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:12.480
I don't find many flaws in this.

1036
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:17.579
I find a lot of triumphs against the almost insurmountable.

1037
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:22.199
So I can't say, yeah, I agree with both of you and the individual

1038
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.440
things, but I would also say that they're quite small in the

1039
00:45:25.440 --> 00:45:29.880
spectrum of it, because overall, I think the parsling things are

1040
00:45:29.880 --> 00:45:31.079
the things we don't get to see.

1041
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:35.639
We just get the ripple effects of the thoughtlessness and there's

1042
00:45:35.639 --> 00:45:36.659
greed and the selfishness.

1043
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:39.420
And of course, Douglas was giving us exactly that with his

1044
00:45:39.420 --> 00:45:40.440
villains all the way through.

1045
00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:44.760
And they are mono-dimensional because boring people just are.

1046
00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:48.780
I've always enjoyed the Graham Williams era of Doctor Who.

1047
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:52.440
As much, though, as much as you...

1048
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.320
Now that we've done this, now that we've done flight through

1049
00:45:55.320 --> 00:45:58.380
entirety through the Graham Williams era, I love it even more.

1050
00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:02.940
You know, because there are times I've written articles on Doctor

1051
00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:06.420
Who and analysed Doctor Who, but really, so this podcast is the

1052
00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:09.000
deepest I've analysed the Graham Williams era.

1053
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:14.340
And more than any other era of Doctor Who, even when it goes wrong

1054
00:46:14.340 --> 00:46:16.440
you can see what they were trying to do.

1055
00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:20.039
It's thematically proud and fine, isn't it?

1056
00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:22.739
I mean, you can say that Hingecliff area, gosh, it looks so great

1057
00:46:22.739 --> 00:46:25.920
and there's so much high and low contrast.

1058
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:28.860
There's so much divergence and so much to keep us engaged.

1059
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:33.179
But looking from this lovely point of the obber floaty obelisk.

1060
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:36.239
Um, shove up tod. very stifling in this thing.

1061
00:46:36.300 --> 00:46:39.719
There's so much to admire of where they wanted to go with it.

1062
00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:41.880
As you say, the treatment of the individual.

1063
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.159
Yeah, it's I prefer it.

1064
00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:46.860
I think I probably prefer it as well.

1065
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:51.179
I think I was quite down on the Hingecliff era and apparently I

1066
00:46:51.179 --> 00:46:56.099
was being contrarian perhaps, but it's nastier than it needed to

1067
00:46:56.099 --> 00:46:56.340
be.

1068
00:46:56.820 --> 00:46:59.340
Didn't treat the women very well.

1069
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.219
Well, the women that were in it, you know, there weren't all that

1070
00:47:02.219 --> 00:47:02.639
many.

1071
00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:04.500
It just lacked fun.

1072
00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:08.219
And this, you're not going to feed Lalage into a garden compost.

1073
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:10.079
No, you definitely aren't.

1074
00:47:10.139 --> 00:47:12.719
This is so witty and so funny.

1075
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:17.699
There is a real joy to it.

1076
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.880
And I just think that's spectacular.

1077
00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:22.079
That's what Doctor Who needs.

1078
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:24.719
Doctor Who doesn't need to be a grim dark slog through various

1079
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:28.079
Nazi inspired battlefields.

1080
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:29.820
It should be fun.

1081
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:31.679
And you know what?

1082
00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:34.980
I think as an era as a whole, this is the Doctor Who that makes

1083
00:47:34.980 --> 00:47:38.400
you think about the ideas it's raising the most.

1084
00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:41.940
We had some of that in the Pertwi era when Robert Sloman or Mac

1085
00:47:41.940 --> 00:47:42.719
Hawk would write.

1086
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:46.619
You know, there'd be social commentary in those groups, didn't

1087
00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:49.019
really have it in the Hingecliffe era, with the Hingecliffe era

1088
00:47:49.019 --> 00:47:50.820
was, there are monsters there, we will kill them.

1089
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:55.380
Whereas this, you know, sometimes the monsters aren't monsters and

1090
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:57.539
sometimes the nice people are monsters.

1091
00:47:58.019 --> 00:48:01.739
And sometimes they're painted silver and we wonder how that

1092
00:48:01.739 --> 00:48:02.159
happened.

1093
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:05.099
Yeah, but I'm still thinking about that.

1094
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:09.360
I would say with the exception of underworld...

1095
00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:12.719
With the exception of underworld, every Graham Williams story

1096
00:48:12.719 --> 00:48:17.699
raises ideas that it doesn't answer itself and it doesn't answer

1097
00:48:17.699 --> 00:48:19.860
them deliberately because it's inviting you to think about them

1098
00:48:19.860 --> 00:48:23.099
without saying now you consider this.

1099
00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:27.539
And I think the greatest triumph of that is something we referred

1100
00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:31.320
to ages ago in the Sunmakers, when Terrence Sticks, who is a great

1101
00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:33.539
writer, but at that time was pushing out these Doctor Who

1102
00:48:33.539 --> 00:48:34.860
novelisation is really quickly.

1103
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:39.239
Terrence Dix thinks about the death of Gatherer Hayden adds

1104
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:42.780
something to that because Terrence Dix, who, as I say, great

1105
00:48:42.780 --> 00:48:45.179
writer, but at this point, sort of just writing what's on the

1106
00:48:45.179 --> 00:48:46.139
page.

1107
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.300
It looks like he's read that and gone, you know what?

1108
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:49.920
I think this needs to be commented on.

1109
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:53.820
And if you can teach something about writing to one of Doctor

1110
00:48:53.820 --> 00:48:56.340
Who's greatest writers.

1111
00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:58.320
That's a job well done.

1112
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.599
Picks of the week.

1113
00:49:00.659 --> 00:49:02.519
These are all things that we've mentioned.

1114
00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:07.079
I've got 3 and they are basically the novelisation of City of

1115
00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:12.900
Death by James Goss, the novelisation of Shada by Gareth Roberts

1116
00:49:12.900 --> 00:49:16.920
and the respective audiobooks of them, which are read by Lala

1117
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:17.400
Ward.

1118
00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:21.539
If you've never read them, you really, really ought to.

1119
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:22.679
They're just terrific.

1120
00:49:22.739 --> 00:49:26.219
And I was so delighted by James Goss, the city of death

1121
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:27.059
novelisation.

1122
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.440
I just think it's superb.

1123
00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:29.219
You need to read it, Richard.

1124
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:29.760
It's really good.

1125
00:49:29.820 --> 00:49:31.139
I do, I suppose.

1126
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:32.400
It's really good.

1127
00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:35.579
And I guess the other pick is license denied, which we've

1128
00:49:35.579 --> 00:49:36.599
mentioned a couple of times.

1129
00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:40.559
That's by Paul Cornell, who once named a character after me in a

1130
00:49:40.559 --> 00:49:44.760
new adventure, and it's a whole heap of stuff from fanzines and

1131
00:49:44.760 --> 00:49:47.820
things, but it includes 2 really important articles that we've

1132
00:49:47.820 --> 00:49:49.380
cited about the Williams era.

1133
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:50.159
It's well worth a read.

1134
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:51.059
It's a lovely thing.

1135
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:55.800
Speaking of novels about naughty art, thefts, and things.

1136
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:59.820
Watching this again, and indeed reading the sharder book, took me

1137
00:49:59.820 --> 00:50:03.179
back to through Gareth Roberts, too, someone who I think must have

1138
00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:07.079
been, if not known by, and I haven't checked whether Douglas Adams

1139
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:12.179
and Kiro Bonfilioli, the British writer, were mates, but they're

1140
00:50:12.179 --> 00:50:16.380
certainly very similar people, just working slightly different

1141
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:16.920
mediums.

1142
00:50:16.980 --> 00:50:21.719
Kill Bonfilioli is a British writer who wrote them Mordecai

1143
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:22.980
trilogy.

1144
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:27.179
It's about, as he said, this is not autobiographer

1145
00:50:27.179 --> 00:50:30.840
autobiographical, it's about some other portly dissolute, immoral

1146
00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.039
middle-aged art dealer who really doesn't care about anything but

1147
00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:36.119
having a great deal of fun.

1148
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:37.860
They're terrific books.

1149
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:43.980
And they feel like Douglas Adams for naughty grown-ups.

1150
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:45.480
They can get very dark.

1151
00:50:45.539 --> 00:50:49.079
They're pretty much thrillers in chase books and crime novels, but

1152
00:50:49.079 --> 00:50:50.039
they're also hilarious.

1153
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:53.099
And when they're funny, they're pure Douglas Adams.

1154
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.980
Unfortunately, the writer drank himself to an early death.

1155
00:50:56.039 --> 00:51:01.440
So in a couple of the best books, there have been chapters written

1156
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:04.800
by others, and it really clangs, but that's a very Douglas Adams

1157
00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:06.900
Drayne Williams experience as well.

1158
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:10.679
So yes, I'll include him in the, well, Nathan will kindly include

1159
00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:11.519
him in the show notes.

1160
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:14.820
But if you wanted to read more of the feel of this season, but

1161
00:51:14.820 --> 00:51:19.920
maybe for people more your own age now and still just be a part of

1162
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.380
this for a bit longer, I really recommend this fellow.

1163
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:25.139
There's not a lot to read, didn't publish very much, so

1164
00:51:25.139 --> 00:51:26.280
fantastic.

1165
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:30.420
My pick is gently is holistic detective agency.

1166
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:31.980
How did we not mention that?

1167
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.219
Because we are so seen.

1168
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:39.119
I think we may have alluded to it earlier.

1169
00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:42.239
But about, oh, 10 years?

1170
00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:43.139
afterwards?

1171
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:43.980
Late 80s?

1172
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:48.719
Douglas Adams, you know, flush with success after Hitchhiker's

1173
00:51:48.719 --> 00:51:53.159
Guide to the Galaxy, wrote 2 books, uh, Doke Gently's holistic

1174
00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.800
detective agency, and the long dark tea time of the soul.

1175
00:51:55.860 --> 00:52:00.420
Dirt Gently Holistic Detective Agency uses a lot of elements from

1176
00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:03.599
Shada, and a few elements from City of Death, including the

1177
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:05.519
character of Chronotis.

1178
00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:09.179
And the fact he's got a time machine and what have you.

1179
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:14.099
I certainly recommend the 1st book if you've enjoyed this season

1180
00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:15.420
it's very in keeping with the tone.

1181
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:17.340
The 2nd book is more its own thing.

1182
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:18.599
I like the 2nd book a lot.

1183
00:52:18.659 --> 00:52:20.639
The 2nd book's good as well. just quite a different beast.

1184
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:21.179
Yeah, yeah.

1185
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:24.719
Gently has a very interesting life at the moment because there was

1186
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:29.280
a run of 4 episodes of the TV series on BBC 4 a few years ago.

1187
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:33.059
They're very good, but they expunge some of the more fantastical

1188
00:52:33.059 --> 00:52:33.539
elements.

1189
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:35.880
But they're a very good thing in their own right.

1190
00:52:35.940 --> 00:52:39.420
It's Stephen and Mangan, Asdirk Gently.

1191
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:45.480
Richard Boyd, as McDuff, and Kate Beckensale, as Susan.

1192
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:48.539
But yeah, I do recommend this book.

1193
00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:52.019
The books are...

1194
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:55.500
They're very Douglas, but they're also very different from

1195
00:52:55.500 --> 00:52:57.960
hitchhikers because hitchhikers, of course, goes off on the

1196
00:52:57.960 --> 00:52:59.760
tangent because it's got the device of the book.

1197
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:02.519
Whereas dirt gently.

1198
00:53:02.579 --> 00:53:08.039
Well, it is a confusing narrative, because it's Douglas Adams, it's

1199
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:10.559
still much easier to follow.

1200
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:13.800
And if you've ever found that you've tried reading hitchhikers and

1201
00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:14.760
you can't get your head into it.

1202
00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:18.599
Give Dirk gently a try because there will be things that happen in

1203
00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:20.219
it where you go, I don't see where this is going.

1204
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:22.559
By the time you get to the last page, you'll understand exactly

1205
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:23.039
where it was.

1206
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:24.059
It's incredibly rewarding.

1207
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:25.380
It's like a puzzle box.

1208
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.659
It's really, really carefully plotted.

1209
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:33.780
There has also been a very good radio adaptation by Dirk Maggs, who

1210
00:53:33.780 --> 00:53:38.159
was responsible for the tertiary quadronary and quintessential

1211
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:42.539
phases of the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, but I recommend

1212
00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:43.320
starting with the book.

1213
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.019
Dirk Gently's holistic detective agency.

1214
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:04.679
Well, we've come to the end of Season 17, And you know what, for

1215
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:07.500
the first, for the first time at the end of an era, I feel quite

1216
00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:09.300
sad to be saying goodbye to Graham Williams.

1217
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:09.900
Thank you.

1218
00:54:10.019 --> 00:54:13.800
But we will be going into a brave new world as we touch down on

1219
00:54:13.800 --> 00:54:19.019
Brighton Beach for the leisure hive, and you may find more changes

1220
00:54:19.019 --> 00:54:20.519
next season as well.

1221
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:23.219
Top will be back for the leisure hive, and Richard will be back

1222
00:54:23.219 --> 00:54:25.139
possibly when you least expect him.

1223
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:27.300
Because I don't know yet, either.

1224
00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:32.099
Until then, please check us out online. flights through entirety

1225
00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:34.500
com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE

1226
00:54:34.500 --> 00:54:38.340
podcast on Twitter and go ahead and share us around with everyone

1227
00:54:38.340 --> 00:54:39.539
you know and love as well.

1228
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:43.559
We'd love to have some new listeners And over on Bondfinger, we

1229
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:48.059
have an array of commentary podcast recorded.

1230
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:51.000
I don't know where we're up to at this juncture.

1231
00:54:51.059 --> 00:54:52.860
I will look it up before we do leisure hive.

1232
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:56.820
Bondfinger.com Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger

1233
00:54:56.820 --> 00:54:57.780
cast on Twitter.

1234
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:01.500
I like putting them both on at the same time in either ear and

1235
00:55:01.500 --> 00:55:02.880
they make a lot more sense.

1236
00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:05.460
One finger in one ear and us in the eye.

1237
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:07.980
Unlike the end of the Williams era.

1238
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:12.300
And until then, may none of your balls suck your brains out

1239
00:55:12.300 --> 00:55:13.139
through your forehead.

1240
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.159
Thank you very much and good night.

1241
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:14.760
Good night.

1242
00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:16.320
So I have to let the water out of this then.

1243
00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:22.019
That was fight through entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan

1244
00:55:22.019 --> 00:55:23.159
Jones, and Richard Stone.

1245
00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:27.420
This episode, chaotic intent, was recorded on the 6th of February

1246
00:55:27.420 --> 00:55:28.260
2016.

1247
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:31.199
Flat your entirety will return on April 3rd.

1248
00:55:31.260 --> 00:55:33.599
They really will publish anything nowadays.

1249
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.480
Check out the reviews for the Conservative Revolution by Corgi

1250
00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:37.079
Bernardi.

1251
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:37.920
See you in 5 weeks.

1252
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Charter, 6th of February.

1253
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It's the Shada, usually, the Shada.

1254
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You know what, Nathan?

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Do you know what I mean?