WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:30:07

1
00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:36.659
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast made up of postgraduates talking to each other.

2
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:38.520
We've tried to have it banned.

3
00:00:38.579 --> 00:00:39.000
I am Brendan.

4
00:00:39.060 --> 00:00:41.520
I'm Nathan, and I feel odd to the touch.

5
00:00:41.579 --> 00:00:46.619
I can't be cut with a razor, and I will make your spectrographs look nervous. for this story.

6
00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:49.380
What story are we doing?

7
00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:52.859
We are doing the loft story.

8
00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:55.320
Shut up.

9
00:01:05.099 --> 00:01:08.280
Thank you for that link, Kef McCulloch.

10
00:01:08.340 --> 00:01:10.379
Oh, isn't Keff terrible?

11
00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:13.859
I think he does a decent job of impersonating Duckley.

12
00:01:13.920 --> 00:01:15.299
It's very kind of his photo.

13
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:16.079
Awful.

14
00:01:16.140 --> 00:01:18.359
It's terribly inappropriate music.

15
00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:24.299
And after we said goodbye to David Brierly, he's back this week on the video release.

16
00:01:24.540 --> 00:01:30.780
So you're all pretending that this exists in the visual medium, which I'm here to, because this is my story, I've got this one.

17
00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:42.239
So I'm very happy to share that this canonical reason, referencing Nathan, dictates that this can't be seen because the time scoop cancelled this story from our version of reality.

18
00:01:42.299 --> 00:01:57.120
And you recall, the little story called The Five Doctors that came out, not long afterwards, and yet it felt like 20 years after this, as far as the distance of narrative and style goes, and you suddenly see Tom and Lando in a punt.

19
00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:07.920
And instantly, my yearning, my nostalgia, which, what was the etymology is 2 Greek words meaning what, pain and home, home, it's like homesickness.

20
00:02:07.980 --> 00:02:11.759
Yeah, nice film, the pain of the loss, really, pain.

21
00:02:11.819 --> 00:02:14.520
Yeah. of them not being here anymore.

22
00:02:14.580 --> 00:02:21.659
And so, of course, as we know that, it does exist, but it never actually came out because the time was, sort of cancelled it.

23
00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:31.800
And so really, really, when Paul McGann goes back and for some reason has to go get Lala and K 9 from Gallifrane and then go off and have that adventure.

24
00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:33.719
That's probably the real version of this story.

25
00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:42.000
So can we just briefly contextualise this for those who don't know exactly about all of these overlapping versions?

26
00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:44.580
So this gets abandoned.

27
00:02:45.180 --> 00:02:49.319
We get the location footage done in some of the studio sessions and then it's abandoned.

28
00:02:49.379 --> 00:02:50.219
Yes, that's correct.

29
00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:53.219
So I think we got the location footage and the 1st studio sessions?

30
00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:58.620
70-something minutes of 150-something minutes that...

31
00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:02.340
Most of part one exist, but the other parts are about 17, 18 minutes long.

32
00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.180
And that gets released on VHS with a script book.

33
00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:06.900
Do you remember that?

34
00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:09.900
I remember earlier draft of the scriptbook, yes.

35
00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:14.520
I remember bicycling to a video store in DY in order to kind of find it.

36
00:03:14.580 --> 00:03:21.479
And actually, this is a great point because Taunt would like to know about the myriad versions there are of Shalda.

37
00:03:21.539 --> 00:03:24.240
Well, gentlemen, we've arrived in Shada.

38
00:03:24.300 --> 00:03:25.560
My question is this.

39
00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:30.060
What version of Shada did you watch, read, or listen to?

40
00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.919
I watched the reedited version from the 1992 video release.

41
00:03:34.979 --> 00:03:37.439
I think the location work on this is absolutely stunning.

42
00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:42.180
Is this potentially the best six part Graham Williams story that never was?

43
00:03:42.240 --> 00:03:48.120
Well, I'll let you debate the pros and cons of the rest of this story and whether it actually is part of Doctor Who Continuity.

44
00:03:48.180 --> 00:03:51.599
And I guess I'll see you all in 1980.

45
00:03:52.199 --> 00:04:09.719
So, 100 years later, they do a version, and it's actually broadcast on the internet, and it's big finish 2003, audio starring Paul McGann as the doctor in Roman, who's by now president of Galafre, and it's a sort of flash animation thing.

46
00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:13.979
Into web flash animation, which is always so successful for a whole story.

47
00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:15.719
It's a bit rough, actually.

48
00:04:15.780 --> 00:04:19.980
And then there's the novelisation by Gareth Roberts in 2012.

49
00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:22.560
Which is what I used to review this story.

50
00:04:22.620 --> 00:04:23.279
Right.

51
00:04:23.339 --> 00:04:25.860
To me, that is now the canon version of this one.

52
00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:31.980
You know, I think we've had this conversation before, but I mean, if you're saying this is not canon, Are you in some sense saying?

53
00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.319
Oh, it is, but it doesn't exist in a visual medium.

54
00:04:34.379 --> 00:04:44.759
But anyone who claims that it's not canon seems to me to be saying that this didn't happen in the way that the horns of Naimon actually happened.

55
00:04:44.819 --> 00:04:49.680
And given that spoiler alert, neither of them actually.

56
00:04:50.339 --> 00:04:53.220
It seems like a kind of fruitless argument.

57
00:04:53.279 --> 00:04:53.819
Possibly, yeah.

58
00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:59.459
But like all discussions of church like law, we could stay in this for a very long time, couldn't we?

59
00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:01.620
You could.

60
00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:08.639
I actually have a form to reconcile how this story is canon or what have you.

61
00:05:08.699 --> 00:05:12.000
Because that 2003 version, as Richard alluded to earlier.

62
00:05:12.060 --> 00:05:20.699
There was a new prologue written for that performed by Paul McGann, where he goes back and picks up Romana and K9 and says we were taken out of time, but we should have had this adventure.

63
00:05:20.819 --> 00:05:22.680
So we need to go back and have it again.

64
00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:25.560
So in the original TV version of the 5 doctors.

65
00:05:25.620 --> 00:05:28.560
That is where the doctor's taken out of time.

66
00:05:28.620 --> 00:05:31.980
Shanda doesn't happen for the 4th doctor and the 8th doctor has to go back and do it.

67
00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:34.199
In the special edition of the 5 doctors.

68
00:05:34.259 --> 00:05:38.279
The time scoop puts them back in the punt at the time they left.

69
00:05:38.519 --> 00:05:41.220
So you can pick whichever version you like.

70
00:05:42.180 --> 00:05:44.040
Both of them happened.

71
00:05:44.100 --> 00:05:45.120
Both of them happen.

72
00:05:45.180 --> 00:05:54.000
My personal opinion of Doctor Who Canon and the comics and the audios and the stage plays and whatever else.

73
00:05:54.120 --> 00:05:58.319
And this is something I wrote into my 1st script for Planet Scarrow Audios.

74
00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:01.199
Everything happened somewhere.

75
00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:04.019
Which is a very Douglas Adams take on it.

76
00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:08.160
You know, it's like it's like the curator in Day of the Doctor.

77
00:06:08.220 --> 00:06:10.740
It's like, does it really matter how he got there?

78
00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:13.019
What's more important is that he's there.

79
00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.540
Does it really matter if Shada happened and how Shada happened?

80
00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:18.660
The important thing is that we have about 15 versions of it.

81
00:06:19.319 --> 00:06:25.259
It's kind of funny, but for me, like, before we leave a canon thing.

82
00:06:25.379 --> 00:06:36.000
The thing about the TV show that elevates it is that it's the thing that has an audience of 1000000s, it's the thing that you, it's the format of the show that you can share with other people.

83
00:06:36.060 --> 00:06:37.980
You know, you can sit and watch it.

84
00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:45.420
Doing an audio or reading a book or a comic is a really solitary experience, but there's something shared.

85
00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:48.480
And so our memories of Doctor Who.

86
00:06:48.540 --> 00:06:57.839
And because it's so central, yeah, we're more likely to have seen a TV show than we are to have read a particular comic or a particular new adventure or a particular BBC book.

87
00:06:57.899 --> 00:07:00.779
And so that's the thing that we come back to, I think.

88
00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:08.160
There is one more version we haven't discussed, which is the animated version by Ian Levine.

89
00:07:08.220 --> 00:07:09.360
Oh, yes.

90
00:07:09.420 --> 00:07:14.759
Now, Ian developed this with a view to selling it to entertain to put out...

91
00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.480
Well, sorry, selling it to BBC worldwide to put out on the DVD.

92
00:07:18.540 --> 00:07:24.600
And apparently the reason that didn't happen was that sort of Ian did it off his own bat.

93
00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:40.920
And the problem was one of contracts because the way it was produced, if the BBC had bought it, they would have had to pay for it as an original drama and that wasn't in the budget of the DVD release.

94
00:07:40.980 --> 00:07:51.660
That would have also meant paying the Adams estate for an original drama, even if Adam's widow and his daughter had said, and look, no, we don't want the money.

95
00:07:51.779 --> 00:07:55.259
It actually a contractual obligation, which is part of the reason it can get released.

96
00:07:55.319 --> 00:07:56.519
I have seen it.

97
00:07:56.579 --> 00:08:04.560
And this is going to lead me into a little story about a very controversial figure in Doctor Who Fandom, who is Ian Levine.

98
00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:16.439
Ian Lean's animated version features Lala Ward, John Leeson, Daniel Hill, Victoria Burgoyne, and Christopher Neam, all reprising their roles.

99
00:08:16.500 --> 00:08:18.060
It doesn't feature Tom.

100
00:08:18.120 --> 00:08:23.279
It features a friend of mine, Paul Jones, who's a voice artist and very good Tom impersonator.

101
00:08:23.339 --> 00:08:39.120
And Ian invited him round, along with a group of people, to watch a working print of Shada with the animated scenes cut in with the live action scenes and like, so it's live action where the live action exists and then animated to cover the bits that don't.

102
00:08:39.179 --> 00:08:42.299
Paul said to me, look, Ian's asked me if I want to take anyone.

103
00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.879
I don't think anyone in my family would be interested.

104
00:08:44.940 --> 00:08:49.980
A, I think A, I think you'll be interested in B. I don't know if there's going to be other people I know there.

105
00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:50.879
Would you mind coming along?

106
00:08:50.940 --> 00:08:54.899
Because, you know, I know Ian, but Ian's going to be talking to other people who needs to host. didn't you?

107
00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:59.220
I didn't dress up too I didn't dress up, dress up too fancy.

108
00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:07.860
But there wasn't anyone else from the cast there, but there were there were lots of people, including Warris Hussein.

109
00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:08.820
Wow.

110
00:09:08.820 --> 00:09:10.620
It was also similarly dressed.

111
00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:12.840
It was rather embarrassing for everyone.

112
00:09:12.899 --> 00:09:22.919
I talked to Morris Hussein about directing and said, you know, this was before I was working in television and how interested I was in going into television and he said how much he'd love to direct an episode of the new series.

113
00:09:23.700 --> 00:09:26.340
With whom do you both have to sleep to?

114
00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:32.460
Well, I'm pretty sure I flirted outrageously with Warris that you're saying, and I'm not entirely unsure he didn't flirt with me.

115
00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:34.019
Is there any other level of flirting?

116
00:09:34.019 --> 00:09:36.299
to be performed other than that.

117
00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.539
And so, yeah, we sat down and we watched it.

118
00:09:39.539 --> 00:09:43.980
And Paul said to me, after you watch it, I want an honest assessment of what you think of my Tom.

119
00:09:44.039 --> 00:09:56.820
And when we got out, I said, And when we got out, I said to him, if I'm giving you an honest assessment, Paul, you sound like season 12, Tom, not season 17, Tom.

120
00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:58.019
That's the only difference.

121
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:00.299
Oh, such kind gross.

122
00:10:00.299 --> 00:10:01.019
That was.

123
00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:01.980
Look, I'm devastated.

124
00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:04.139
I think the friendship would have ended right there.

125
00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:08.759
Not only that, but Paul had to record his line sitting across from Lala Ward.

126
00:10:08.820 --> 00:10:12.899
Was she poking and making finger gestures and doing the whole thing?

127
00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.799
At the end of the 1st scene, she just looked at him and said, freaky.

128
00:10:17.460 --> 00:10:20.879
But they were naked, but that's strange.

129
00:10:20.940 --> 00:10:29.279
Now, something I would like to talk about is because Ian Levine gets a lot of flack and I'm not going to go into the recent things with the missing episode.

130
00:10:29.340 --> 00:10:31.200
We've talked about Ian before.

131
00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:31.679
I love Ian.

132
00:10:31.740 --> 00:10:34.259
Yeah, well, the thing is, Ian...

133
00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:40.259
Ian also showed us that night, a DVD special feature that had yet to be released.

134
00:10:40.379 --> 00:10:41.879
I just have no idea where this is going.

135
00:10:41.940 --> 00:10:48.179
Ian also showed us that night, this DVD teacher, and just asked, please, no one mention it because I shouldn't really show it to anyone.

136
00:10:48.240 --> 00:10:49.799
We're having such a nice time blow that up.

137
00:10:49.860 --> 00:10:52.200
It's a lot of blood and gore.

138
00:10:52.379 --> 00:10:58.919
And anyway, I left and, you know, no one was said about it.

139
00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:13.500
And a few days later, I got a message from Paul saying, um, look, I'm really sorry to ask you this, but someone told the guy who made the special feature that Ian showed it to us and Ian has asked me to ask you.

140
00:11:13.620 --> 00:11:14.100
It wasn't you.

141
00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:18.779
It wasn't me, and but Ian said Ian said to Paul, quite rightly.

142
00:11:18.840 --> 00:11:20.460
He's the only person I'd ever met before.

143
00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:21.360
Could you ask him?

144
00:11:21.419 --> 00:11:23.279
I can't imagine anyone else would have.

145
00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:26.940
And so I said I said to Paul, no, that's not the case.

146
00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:28.200
And then I thought, you know what?

147
00:11:28.259 --> 00:11:32.519
Ian Levine, a lot of people see him as this person who will just attack people online.

148
00:11:32.580 --> 00:11:33.299
He didn't do that.

149
00:11:33.360 --> 00:11:48.059
And he, so I actually, because at the time I was on Gallifro Bass, which is an online forum, I found him on that and sent him a personal message saying, Ian, I want to assure you that I didn't tell anyone about it, but I also appreciate that I'm the obvious suspect.

150
00:11:48.059 --> 00:11:51.899
And I think, you know, it was very considerate of you to ask me through Paul.

151
00:11:51.899 --> 00:11:55.500
And I got a really lovely email back from him saying, you know what?

152
00:11:55.559 --> 00:11:56.639
You seem like a nice book.

153
00:11:56.700 --> 00:12:00.179
I didn't think it was you, but thank you for understanding my position.

154
00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:04.200
And yeah, I haven't had any other personal dealings with the match.

155
00:12:04.259 --> 00:12:06.059
Would you please post it?

156
00:12:06.059 --> 00:12:08.340
I haven't had any other personal dealings with the man.

157
00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:09.960
But that was my experience of being living.

158
00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:10.980
Nice.

159
00:12:11.039 --> 00:12:12.659
It is a lovely story, thank you.

160
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:17.460
On the topic of that animation, I'll just say Christopher Neem has gone insane and I won't say anything more.

161
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.080
Seek it out and watch it.

162
00:12:19.139 --> 00:12:25.320
The other 3 versions we haven't mentioned are obviously the light opera, the sculptural version.

163
00:12:25.320 --> 00:12:29.340
And the impressionistic dance version.

164
00:12:29.460 --> 00:12:32.340
Oh, yes, I was thinking of the fuzzy felt set, actually.

165
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:37.200
And don't forget Charles Kate Feldman's 13 hour film.

166
00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.279
Yeah, the edit. featuring Peter Cushing, Rowan Atkinson, and Trevor Martin.

167
00:12:41.340 --> 00:12:42.779
Yes, that was awesome.

168
00:12:42.899 --> 00:12:45.659
Psychedelic.

169
00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.860
I wish we'd had Roan Atkinson as a doctor in some America.

170
00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:50.220
We do.

171
00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.019
Maybe we still will. properly.

172
00:12:52.080 --> 00:12:54.240
No, Chibles castle.

173
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:54.899
Not just for Christmas.

174
00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:55.860
No.

175
00:12:55.919 --> 00:13:05.519
Well, can we talk about how we have sort of said how wonderful this story is, and if you don't know it, I have no idea why you're listening to us, because it will make no sense at all.

176
00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:10.440
But it is a beautiful thing and it is the... like a hat like that.

177
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:12.480
I should like a hat like that.

178
00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:19.320
Don't you get, isn't it lovely that when Adams is talking about where to write this story and again, it's a 6 day rise.

179
00:13:19.379 --> 00:13:25.679
But he said, there's nowhere else in the world other than Cambridge where you could dress like this villain, panto villain and not be noticed.

180
00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:31.379
And no, no, no, no, have no one really pay you much attention, okay, it's Skagra.

181
00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:38.100
But it's Scaroff, but it's every villain that, you know, we don't want to talk about weakness in Adam's style.

182
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:59.220
It's the same villain every time because he's talking about the overarching, mimetic quality of villainy, which is greed, selfishness, narcissism, and suppressed self-loathing, because they don't read enough poetry and they didn't have the joy to go and do humanities at Cambridge and get really filthily drunk and have lovely time meeting girls like Lana Ward.

183
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.559
And Victoria Burgoyne.

184
00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:03.960
Oh, Victoria Burgoyne.

185
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:05.639
She is amazing.

186
00:14:05.700 --> 00:14:08.039
And she not only does she look like a Chanel ad.

187
00:14:08.100 --> 00:14:10.620
She pictures it if you can see her.

188
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:11.700
She on YouTube, isn't it?

189
00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:15.779
You can actually see bits of the performance without having to dash out and buy anything, can't you?

190
00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:19.919
I don't know I just assume because I've seen it so many times in other mediums.

191
00:14:19.980 --> 00:14:23.399
But yeah, yeah, she's absolutely not perfect in this.

192
00:14:23.460 --> 00:14:27.360
She's gorgeous, whereas Chris Parsons, of course, is the Mary Sue and Douglas.

193
00:14:27.419 --> 00:14:30.000
He even likes Bark, like Douglas does.

194
00:14:30.059 --> 00:14:32.759
I don't think they perform. anything wrong with the performance.

195
00:14:32.820 --> 00:14:34.200
I just think the character's really weird.

196
00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:42.480
But there's so much else going on in this and there's so many levels and we can talk about the antecedents, but this is the apotheosis of Douglas's thoughts.

197
00:14:42.539 --> 00:15:04.139
Douglas's vision, you know, for his artistic, millie, of his artistic writing, and that it doesn't actually ever get seen, it's kind of perfect because, well, as we've already said, it, it's something that you can then go over and interpret, and we spend a lot more time thinking about this story than many others of the 70s because it doesn't have that visceral quality.

198
00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:04.860
You don't think so?

199
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:06.539
I've spent a lot of time on this story.

200
00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:08.100
Been going and reading the book.

201
00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:10.620
I really don't like it.

202
00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:13.559
Because there is always that question.

203
00:15:13.620 --> 00:15:14.220
Isn't there?

204
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.580
Is this the story that would have redeemed season 17?

205
00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:22.200
Is this going to be the great William season finale?

206
00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:24.720
And I just don't think it is.

207
00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.659
And I think it...

208
00:15:28.019 --> 00:15:31.200
Well, we haven't seen Skagger actually do anything that mints about in Cambridge.

209
00:15:31.259 --> 00:15:36.779
No, look, I mean, part of it is, I think, due to the presentation, the DVD presentation.

210
00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:41.639
I have to say that I think the novelisation is really much more successful and really enjoyable.

211
00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:59.580
But the TV thing that we have because Skagra's in the studio blocks that don't get shot because all of the climactic stuff, all of the big, you know, episode 5 reversals, all of the things on the spaceship aren't there and it just narrated to us by Tom.

212
00:15:59.639 --> 00:16:06.179
What we get is the location stuff, which is wonderful, an absolute breath of fresh air after what?

213
00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:11.820
Is it 3 successive stories without a frame of location work at all?

214
00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:17.399
So that would have gone some way to redressing the balance and making the season a little bit more interesting.

215
00:16:17.460 --> 00:16:21.720
But like there's a kind of exhaustion about the whole thing.

216
00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:24.059
Like, I have to think the monsters would have been terrible.

217
00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:26.159
It's beyond...

218
00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:27.480
We don't get to see.

219
00:16:27.539 --> 00:16:29.100
Well, I imagine they have to be.

220
00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:37.080
It's beyond tiresome that all of the great geniuses in the entire galaxy are old white man.

221
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:40.139
That's horrifically bad There's lots.

222
00:16:40.259 --> 00:16:41.700
Of course he's got more important things to talk about.

223
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.500
I think he says, we know what villainy is.

224
00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:51.539
It's like good to Sereni talking about nazism and Hitler, you know, the Eichmann trials when she said the base of evil is banality.

225
00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:53.340
Evil itself is actually really boring.

226
00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:54.240
That's where it comes from.

227
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:55.980
People are bored. thats why they're evil.

228
00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:57.240
In terms of those scientists.

229
00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:59.460
Remember, they start off with young white men, so at least...

230
00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:00.059
Oh, yeah, okay.

231
00:17:00.779 --> 00:17:01.740
But it is surprising.

232
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:04.740
It was Hannah Rent, sorry, not Guta Seren.

233
00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:12.839
Gita, so when he talked about Albert Speer, Hitler's architect and Hannah Arrent was the New Yorker correspondent on the Eichman trials in the early 60s.

234
00:17:12.900 --> 00:17:15.059
Playing the Judy Garland character from the film.

235
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:16.079
I just had to throw that.

236
00:17:16.259 --> 00:17:23.039
It is surprising that there aren't at least some women amongst those scientists because, of course, this is directed by Pennant Roberts.

237
00:17:23.099 --> 00:17:25.740
Yeah, we have Victoria...

238
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:33.180
We have Victoria Bergon, but one of Pennant Roberts things was to take one male role per script and turn it into a woman.

239
00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.259
Like Marn.

240
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:35.160
Like man.

241
00:17:35.160 --> 00:17:35.880
Or pantomime.

242
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:43.559
And later on, Preston in Warriors of the Deep.

243
00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:45.779
And they're all such shining examples, aren't they?

244
00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:46.680
Yeah, thank good.

245
00:17:46.740 --> 00:17:47.759
No, I like man.

246
00:17:47.819 --> 00:17:50.039
Preston's pretty good as well.

247
00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:52.500
Like when she's standing on Turlo, that's a fun scene.

248
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:53.460
She's with great hair.

249
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:54.720
But we're getting ahead of ourselves.

250
00:17:54.779 --> 00:17:56.519
I'm standing on Turlo.

251
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.779
Is that the name of this episode?

252
00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:01.500
I quite like the design of the Krags, because we do see one at the end of episode two.

253
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:03.599
Threatening the doctor.

254
00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:05.759
Yeah, they would have had CSO overlays and all those of it.

255
00:18:05.819 --> 00:18:07.079
They've got their light up arms.

256
00:18:07.140 --> 00:18:08.400
They do, so do we all.

257
00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:11.099
Concentrating on villainies, not the point.

258
00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.779
And I think Douglas Adams wanted us to think very little of the villainy because they are other bland.

259
00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.559
They're just there to give us something to act against.

260
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:24.539
But everything that is in this is about Adam's take on the universe.

261
00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:26.160
And he's citing.

262
00:18:26.220 --> 00:18:27.240
There's all these references.

263
00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:28.500
I'll go into it if you want to.

264
00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:35.880
The big hits of the day, um, Hofstarter, you remember Douglas, Douglas Hofstarter's book, Girdle.

265
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:37.200
There's notions of that.

266
00:18:37.259 --> 00:18:39.720
Thomas Pinchin's Gravity's Rainbow.

267
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:53.940
The whole over- king sense of the 60s search for the self and the connection between selves and how that will build a world that needs that needs rescuing because the current one we had is so indolent and selfish.

268
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.259
But he then goes on.

269
00:18:55.319 --> 00:18:59.099
I mean, there's references of this of post-yungian synchronicity.

270
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:08.759
And there's planetary movements of the spheres mentioned in this, as in the little bouncing silver sphere, which is akin to air molecules and moving about, you know, kept taking.

271
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.240
No, it's just not it's not turning into compelling television for me.

272
00:19:12.299 --> 00:19:18.299
It does seem like there's a lot of space corridors and it does seem like there's a lot of faffing about on spaceships.

273
00:19:18.420 --> 00:19:22.740
I have to say much as I love season 17, I'm a bit sick of that.

274
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:24.660
Really?

275
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:26.339
Yeah, a little bit.

276
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:29.099
It's going me, me, me, me, meme, meme, is it?

277
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:29.940
I think.

278
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:30.660
I don't get it.

279
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.640
I can watch you're saying, but I can't get enough of that.

280
00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.680
Nathan, I do recommend. seek out the animated version.

281
00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:44.400
Do you know, I did try to watch the animated version and the animation is really rough and Paul McGann...

282
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.079
No, no, no, not the Paul McGann version.

283
00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:47.640
I mean the Ian Levine anime version.

284
00:19:47.700 --> 00:19:48.960
The Paul McGo one's not much fun.

285
00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:55.200
The Ian Levine version, the animation is about on par with the animation in the Ice Warriors DVD.

286
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:55.680
Okay.

287
00:19:55.740 --> 00:19:55.980
Yeah.

288
00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:57.779
So that bad.

289
00:19:58.859 --> 00:20:04.319
Because that's the, I kind, I, I found the video version to be a disappointment.

290
00:20:04.380 --> 00:20:13.859
You know, as you say, all the big reverses and all the big reveals are narrated by Tom, and I would just sit there and try and imagine to myself what that would have looked like.

291
00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:17.400
The Paul McGann version helped me help me a little with that.

292
00:20:17.700 --> 00:20:23.160
But then this version that Ian had animated.

293
00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:29.160
It really helps to sell those scenes and the scenes with Lala and Christopher Nene.

294
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:34.200
Despite the fact they were recorded on separate continents because Christopher Neem lives in America now.

295
00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:36.480
Still wearing the case.

296
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:37.799
Still wearing the cape and hat.

297
00:20:37.859 --> 00:20:40.440
He wears it in that Voyager episode he's in, doesn't he?

298
00:20:40.500 --> 00:20:44.759
Yeah, and he's in an episode of Babylon 5 as well. playing a very similar role.

299
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:48.359
He's actually playing a psychic, psychic police side.

300
00:20:48.539 --> 00:21:03.660
But their scenes are really compelling and really sell this idea of the loss of individualism because that is the central idea that Scangrow wants no one to be an individual except himself and everyone will be his individual self.

301
00:21:03.720 --> 00:21:07.259
And that is powerful.

302
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:20.880
And unfortunately, those scenes weren't recorded because we only had the 1st studio recording block and they actually rehearsed the 2nd, went to lunch, came back, and the doors to the studio were locked.

303
00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:23.220
The industrial action had started while they were at lunch.

304
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:23.880
Wow.

305
00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:31.500
And the next studio session they could get was a week after broadcast was a week after the scheduled broadcast.

306
00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:43.799
I don't know if Graham Williams said, look, let's just have a hiatus and then come back with the last 6 episodes, but yeah, the decision was taken on the 10th of December to finish the season with the Horns of Nimon instead.

307
00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:50.099
There was some story, and I don't know how true it was that, like there are conflicting accounts.

308
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:52.500
It's a bit like Nero and the Great Fire of Rome.

309
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:56.940
Some people say that John Nathan Turner did his level best to try and salvage the story.

310
00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:58.799
Yeah, there were 2 versions of it.

311
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:06.960
Yeah, and the other version was he was happy to let it go and to get an extra 2 episodes for his 1st season.

312
00:22:07.019 --> 00:22:09.539
So he was the Fiona Walker all the time.

313
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:11.700
Yes, but we like we don't know which of those.

314
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:12.180
It's true.

315
00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.660
Did he write the Tom Baker linking material for the DVD?

316
00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:16.200
Yeah.

317
00:22:16.259 --> 00:22:22.200
That's very strange that, like, he's narrating it as if he's the doctor or something and it doesn't really work.

318
00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:24.299
Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

319
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:28.799
There are people who criticise that and then and then praise the curator in Day of the Doctor.

320
00:22:28.859 --> 00:22:30.359
That, hey, that's the curator.

321
00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:31.500
It's the curator.

322
00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:32.640
Okay, go.

323
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:33.240
It's canon.

324
00:22:33.299 --> 00:22:34.259
Canon.

325
00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:35.640
Yeah.

326
00:22:35.640 --> 00:22:38.880
Is that where the idea for the curator comes from?

327
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:43.319
I had he always felt at home at museums.

328
00:22:43.380 --> 00:22:48.480
I had never heard that JNT hadn't wanted to make it.

329
00:22:48.539 --> 00:22:51.059
His extra 2 episodes thing.

330
00:22:51.180 --> 00:22:55.740
I had just always heard was him saying, I don't want to do any 6 parters.

331
00:22:55.740 --> 00:23:03.119
And he also had Barry Letts to back him up because Barry Letts was incoming as executive producer. knew more than anyone else how horrendous 6 parties are.

332
00:23:03.180 --> 00:23:04.019
Yeah, yeah.

333
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:06.900
I think when JNT was trying to remount it.

334
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:13.200
He was actually toying with the idea of resripting it and making it a four-parter.

335
00:23:13.259 --> 00:23:16.140
Yeah, he was taking all the jokes out, probably.

336
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:19.740
Yeah, take the jokes off of science, scientificating.

337
00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:37.259
And I think the only reason it didn't come off was cast availability, and I can't say who wasn't available in particular, but I think some of the guest cast weren't available, and it just became a matter of, well, we can't wait to do this, and we can't have this as we can't have this as a moveable feast while we're planning our season story arc.

338
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.140
No, it was probably just better to cut the cord, you know?

339
00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:40.920
Yeah, yeah.

340
00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:46.980
How much energy can you put into that when you currently don't have workable scripts which we'll discuss?

341
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:54.839
Williams was still very proud of this story and you can say that in genuine embitteredness that came of this cancellation and the exhaustion.

342
00:23:54.900 --> 00:24:06.420
And finally, bringing are about to bring around what he really wanted to do, which would have been his next season, had he not shuffled off and said goodbye.

343
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:08.519
You know all about that plans for the future?

344
00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:10.079
He had plans for another season.

345
00:24:10.140 --> 00:24:12.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, with some interesting stories and a whole new take.

346
00:24:12.660 --> 00:24:13.319
No bid meat.

347
00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:27.839
I knew he wasn't going to get Douglas back, but the impression that Douglas left in the series and with the coupling of the doctor and the companion in this one was apparently something that he felt was really strong and the BBC felt was really strong and they wanted to see it continue.

348
00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:39.059
But this whole thing, like these 3 years have been this kind of limping towards the finish line all the way through, you know, these constant stories get cancelled, scripts fall through.

349
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:40.559
There's suddenly no money.

350
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:50.759
Like I've just been re-listening. to some of our season 15 podcasts because I'm kind of tragic and a little bit self-obsessed.

351
00:24:50.880 --> 00:25:03.359
And, you know, that is just this sort of terrible tale of fighting against production problems and having those production problems really clearly visible in what makes it to screen.

352
00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:12.779
And so, you know, there's flashes of genius through all of this stuff, season 16 is virtually free of that.

353
00:25:12.779 --> 00:25:15.000
Well, there's the Armageddon factor.

354
00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:21.900
But here finally, he succumbs to the production problems in such a way that a whole story just doesn't end up happening.

355
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:29.039
And unfortunately, as we've observed in the last few episodes, this is the story he was saving up to make.

356
00:25:29.099 --> 00:25:38.279
You know, the previous stories suffer visually, uh, and in a budgetary way because he's saving up to make this story.

357
00:25:38.339 --> 00:25:48.480
So it goes and it takes a whole heap of like beautiful location footage, just witty dialogue, all of that sort of stuff with it just goes.

358
00:25:49.079 --> 00:26:01.980
I've just been reading through my notes and John Nathan Turner. did actually send revised scripts to Pennant Roberts to create 250 minute episodes out of Charter.

359
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:02.579
Oh, okay.

360
00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:04.920
And the only reason it didn't happen was Studio Space.

361
00:26:04.980 --> 00:26:06.960
Just like the original.

362
00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:07.559
Yeah, yeah.

363
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:13.319
And when that happened, Christ forbid me, it actually said, well, look, it's not really in keeping with the tone we're going for now either.

364
00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:15.059
Because it's fun.

365
00:26:15.779 --> 00:26:25.140
And, you know, also with that broadcast date, it would have been screened in the middle of the e-space trilogy. fantastic.

366
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.059
Imagine the linking material for that.

367
00:26:27.660 --> 00:26:30.240
Doctor, you've changed out of your clothes.

368
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:33.299
Oh, and we're on an identical version of Cambridge in this green space.

369
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.099
Oh, oh, oh, oh God.

370
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.680
It would have been a lovely holiday special thing.

371
00:26:37.740 --> 00:26:39.240
Just like the Star Wars holiday special.

372
00:26:39.299 --> 00:26:39.839
Can you imagine?

373
00:26:39.900 --> 00:26:42.480
Actually, B Arthur would have been terrific.

374
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:43.200
Yeah.

375
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:44.940
Just a fact.

376
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:45.480
Yeah.

377
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:47.339
It's like it's a problem. not a girl.

378
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:49.500
We needed a girly villain.

379
00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:51.480
Look how great Myra...

380
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:52.140
Yeah, she was.

381
00:26:52.200 --> 00:26:53.220
Oh, yeah.

382
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:55.380
We just need a Janet Ellis back.

383
00:26:56.640 --> 00:26:59.640
Actually, Susan Jamison.

384
00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:01.680
She was meant to be a villain in the pertly era.

385
00:27:01.740 --> 00:27:02.759
She never got to be a villain.

386
00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:04.680
She had to settle for Mrs. Wimsy.

387
00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:05.819
Yeah, sorry.

388
00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:07.980
She had to settle for Mrs. Wibsy.

389
00:27:08.099 --> 00:27:08.880
Yeah she did.

390
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.500
Huh?

391
00:27:10.619 --> 00:27:12.480
I didn't know who we talking about now.

392
00:27:12.539 --> 00:27:14.519
In the hornet's nest audios.

393
00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.200
She is Tom's companion.

394
00:27:16.259 --> 00:27:18.000
His housekeeper, Mrs. Whoops.

395
00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:19.200
We have met her.

396
00:27:19.259 --> 00:27:20.460
We've talked about her before, I think.

397
00:27:20.819 --> 00:27:22.200
They're not very good butt, are they?

398
00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:25.559
They get better in the 3rd season when they're more full cast.

399
00:27:25.619 --> 00:27:27.599
Oh, God, they did 3 seasons.

400
00:27:27.720 --> 00:27:28.440
They did 3 seasons.

401
00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:29.279
Paul Mars.

402
00:27:29.339 --> 00:27:36.000
Yeah, Paul Mars, because and you get David Troughton in playing the 2nd doctor. in the 3rd season.

403
00:27:36.059 --> 00:27:36.960
Did he refuse to ever do that?

404
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:38.339
Oh, it wasn't him.

405
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:40.200
It was BF who refused to cast him.

406
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:42.720
Well, no, no, because BFD cast him.

407
00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:46.920
I think there is a conceit in the story as to why he sounds different.

408
00:27:46.980 --> 00:27:47.759
Yeah.

409
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:50.640
And I think maybe that's the only way.

410
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:52.680
They short about the time differential.

411
00:27:52.740 --> 00:27:53.519
Oh, yeah.

412
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.299
The good thing is this is 1979 and Patrick Troughton's not dead yet.

413
00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:00.420
It seems a good time to talk about the rest of the cast.

414
00:28:00.480 --> 00:28:05.460
We've already praised Victoria Burgoyne. was her 1st telly and she doesn't remarkably well.

415
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:09.420
Referencing herself, but...

416
00:28:09.420 --> 00:28:10.980
I hate that outfit.

417
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.480
I hate her hair She lets her hair down, I think, and then starts to look more human and stuff.

418
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:17.819
I don't think it's that flattering an outfit.

419
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.799
Perfect 70s cool.

420
00:28:19.859 --> 00:28:20.579
I think love.

421
00:28:21.660 --> 00:28:25.859
Well, you see, that's the thing. you know, Lala is very glam because she's going out on a pond.

422
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:26.759
Claire's a scientist.

423
00:28:26.819 --> 00:28:30.299
So Claire is wearing something practical and something safe for the lap.

424
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:34.680
That's why she's got a hair tied back and that's why she's wearing, quote unquote, sensible clothes.

425
00:28:35.460 --> 00:28:42.359
You don't mess about with a spectrograph with your Lally's all laying down in your hair or Uriah all of a mess, do you?

426
00:28:42.420 --> 00:28:43.200
Well, fair enough.

427
00:28:43.980 --> 00:28:51.180
And she has that wonderful bit towards the end of the story where the doctor says, ask me who Sally Avon is and because she's got the professor's memory.

428
00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:53.819
Oh, well, now he was a great criminal in prison century.

429
00:28:53.880 --> 00:29:10.740
And she does it so perfectly in that you know it's unusual that she's saying it, but she's still perfectly comfortable saying it, and she's got that beautiful scene with the professor did something to me, did something to my mind, which, yes, you can interpret that as innuendo.

430
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:16.680
But she plays it very well in that she's slightly disturbed by it, but she's not terrified and not screaming about it.

431
00:29:16.740 --> 00:29:19.920
You know, she's a scientist. interesting thing that happened.

432
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:23.279
She's quite good with the professor too in those scenes.

433
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:24.960
Yes. about the light fun.

434
00:29:25.019 --> 00:29:27.599
A lovely Dennis.

435
00:29:27.660 --> 00:29:29.279
We think he's pretty good, don't he?

436
00:29:29.339 --> 00:29:29.880
He is good.

437
00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:30.900
He is terrific.

438
00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:35.400
Pennant would bring him back in a few years. as an android.

439
00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:37.319
Yeah, oh, no, he's great.

440
00:29:37.380 --> 00:29:38.880
And okay, you know what?

441
00:29:38.940 --> 00:29:44.160
The 2 lumps, no sugar stuff does start to wear a bit thin halfway through the first.

442
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:45.720
I can't remember how I worked about.

443
00:29:45.779 --> 00:29:46.980
There is a logic in it somewhere.

444
00:29:47.039 --> 00:29:50.579
Maybe it's the lumpiness of milk, but sorry.

445
00:29:50.579 --> 00:29:51.119
It is funny.

446
00:29:51.180 --> 00:29:52.740
I think it is actually a funny thing.

447
00:29:52.799 --> 00:29:53.640
The whole thing's funny.

448
00:29:53.700 --> 00:29:55.019
It has this lovely lightness of touch.

449
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:56.099
It goes along.

450
00:29:56.160 --> 00:29:58.799
Okay, it's HD Wills, the door in the wall. you ever read that?

451
00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:06.299
It's a rooms with a door on it and that's a spaceship thing that a time spec- it's the same background.

452
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:07.740
I mean, it's not actually that much funner.

453
00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:12.599
It doesn't matter about antecedents for this thing because this is about coming together.

454
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:14.519
I have lots of different ideas.

455
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:15.119
It works.

456
00:30:15.180 --> 00:30:16.859
It works all the way through.

457
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:19.140
I can't find a dead moment in it.

458
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:29.160
Once again, you know, Graham Williams is doing something new with the time lords, along with Douglas, because Douglas's initial germ of the idea was how to time lords punish their criminals.

459
00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:34.019
You know, we saw one dematerialised once ages go, what does that actually mean?

460
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:38.400
and what do they do with their own kind who are criminals, et cetera, et cetera.

461
00:30:38.460 --> 00:30:39.539
And that was the German B idea.

462
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:45.480
I like that he's saying that even time lords don't know their own full story and don't know how powerful they actually are.

463
00:30:45.539 --> 00:30:46.319
Yes.

464
00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:52.740
And yeah, I love the idea that we've got other timelords out in the universe who like the doctor.

465
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:55.019
They're not trying to take over planets.

466
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.079
You know, this is a guy who's just decided, oh, I'm going to retire to Earth.

467
00:30:58.140 --> 00:31:00.000
Now, the thing is he has to stay in exile.

468
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:01.140
He has to lay low.

469
00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:05.880
But, you know, he hasn't gone off to a craggy moon.

470
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:07.920
He's gone, oh, you know...

471
00:31:08.220 --> 00:31:11.160
I'll just go off and sit here.

472
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.380
And as he says, you know, everyone's so discreet.

473
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:16.799
No one's ever going to say, hold on, haven't you been here for 300 years?

474
00:31:16.859 --> 00:31:19.019
They'll just think, no, that can't possibly be right.

475
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:20.160
That's very Douglas, you know.

476
00:31:20.220 --> 00:31:22.500
It's the someone else's problem field.

477
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:23.400
Yeah.

478
00:31:23.460 --> 00:31:29.339
And that's other, and it is such a lovely portrayal.

479
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:35.819
You know, he does get cross occasionally and you do see a little bit of fire in him like, what have you done with my machine?

480
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:39.779
But most of the time, he's really sweet and really gentle, but it doesn't feel forced.

481
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.460
Yeah, yeah.

482
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.240
Yeah, no, it is a really likeable performance and he's a great character.

483
00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:52.980
I was looking again at Hofstadter's book and how he talks about the propagations of mathematics, micro and macro.

484
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:58.140
So, you know, that the clouds in your coffee take the same form as the spirals of the Milky Way.

485
00:31:58.200 --> 00:32:01.440
You could say, well, that's a very vain approach, Carly Simon.

486
00:32:01.500 --> 00:32:04.920
But it's exactly what you're saying.

487
00:32:04.980 --> 00:32:12.779
The statistically predictable quotient of mass, the action of mass is yet individually random and pointless.

488
00:32:12.900 --> 00:32:23.519
Dr. Norman will win by their randomness, by their apparent pointlessness, by their unpredictability, and by the generation of joy that comes from chaotic intent.

489
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.420
The villains are really, and this one as well.

490
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:33.240
I think it's unfair to say that they're dull white men because the dull white men are the ones with the power.

491
00:32:33.299 --> 00:32:35.279
That's why he gets them to play villains.

492
00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:40.500
The reason we only get Myra Francis is a villain is because it's not what Douglas was trying to tell us.

493
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:44.099
And yes, it makes more fun to watch some variation.

494
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:52.259
But it's because the Nietzsche, Nietzschean, I should say, and the narcissistic Alistair Crowley like similes that are going all through.

495
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:56.160
White guys rule and they're bloody awful and they're taking away the money from Cambridge.

496
00:32:56.220 --> 00:32:59.940
They're taking away, look what they're doing to the BBC through strike actions through all the rest of it.

497
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:05.220
Petty power plays are destroying the fun in the world and they're white blokes who are doing it.

498
00:33:05.339 --> 00:33:08.039
Well, I mean, those signs...

499
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:08.819
Did we say?

500
00:33:08.819 --> 00:33:09.599
Yeah, yeah.

501
00:33:09.660 --> 00:33:16.079
I mean, I mean, I really was referring to those scientists who have had their minds emptied, you know, and are living in the think tanks.

502
00:33:16.140 --> 00:33:18.900
But at the same time, they were BBC producers.

503
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:22.019
At the same time, they've also contributed to this project.

504
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:23.519
Yeah, yeah.

505
00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:25.799
Yeah, they're the victims of the...

506
00:33:25.799 --> 00:33:28.559
They're the victims, but at the same time, they've helped him create it.

507
00:33:28.619 --> 00:33:29.220
Yeah.

508
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:30.059
You know?

509
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:34.619
Whereas you've got, actually, you do have attention as scientists.

510
00:33:34.680 --> 00:33:37.680
So you've got these scientists who've created the brain drain.

511
00:33:37.740 --> 00:33:39.539
Yes, the tension of something.

512
00:33:39.599 --> 00:33:41.220
I do like creative.

513
00:33:41.220 --> 00:33:42.900
Spin them flange, isn't it?

514
00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:48.539
I do like creative nouns like, oh my god. and 0 my god, get the thong of spiders.

515
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:53.339
No, I collect huntsmen and put them out in garden.

516
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:54.720
And what about spiders?

517
00:33:56.339 --> 00:34:07.380
But meanwhile on earth. that red cape is always trolling around, you have Chris and Claire as scientists who are curious scientists.

518
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.900
They find this immensely powerful object.

519
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:12.480
And don't attempt to use it for anything evil.

520
00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:14.760
They attempt to research it and learn about it and find out more.

521
00:34:15.179 --> 00:34:18.480
Mm, there's so much joy.

522
00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:23.039
You know, I don't think that's necessarily an idea that's taken to a massive conclusion.

523
00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:27.239
Well, they the human versions of the doctor and Romana.

524
00:34:27.300 --> 00:34:29.820
In fact, the child versions.

525
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:37.260
I'd like to think that they would be embarking on their own much smaller universe fractal of the Dr. Romana's journey.

526
00:34:37.320 --> 00:34:43.320
I like how Gareth makes there be a romantic thing between them in the novel.

527
00:34:43.380 --> 00:34:45.480
Didn't you find that in this story?

528
00:34:45.539 --> 00:34:46.800
I mean, there is intended to be.

529
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:50.099
It's also underplayed. and that kind of thing.

530
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:52.079
It's very Ian and Barbara.

531
00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:54.599
Oh, marvellous.

532
00:34:54.659 --> 00:34:56.280
We've actually got Oh, wow.

533
00:34:56.340 --> 00:35:01.380
We've even got 360 degree story arcing. right back to the beginning.

534
00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:02.280
Yeah.

535
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:05.099
I wouldn't be surprised to talk us had that in mind.

536
00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:13.019
It's a time lord, an old man who's living hidden on earth and he's discovered by these 2 educators.

537
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:14.159
Oh my god.

538
00:35:14.219 --> 00:35:16.260
That's crazy, is it?

539
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:16.920
There he is.

540
00:35:16.980 --> 00:35:18.000
My goodness, man.

541
00:35:18.059 --> 00:35:23.400
Douglas was like a huge Doctor Who fan from the very beginning because he shamelessly ripped off Darling.

542
00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:24.119
Master Plan.

543
00:35:24.179 --> 00:35:24.780
Yeah, yeah.

544
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.059
And that was, he said that's one of his earliest memories.

545
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:29.519
Oh, TV, yeah.

546
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:33.780
I'm putting Gene Marsh on a trampoline as one of his earliest designers.

547
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:36.119
Yes, well, who hasn't felt like that?

548
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:44.820
Stephen and Peter Perv is something just because, you know, he's got lovely bouncy hair in those days, so he had to do it as well, but I don't, why didn't they put Billy on a trampoline?

549
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:45.599
He would have broken.

550
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:48.179
Some of the best toys do.

551
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:52.079
You've seen that washing machine with a brick in it, I trampoline, haven't you?

552
00:35:52.139 --> 00:35:52.800
Yes, I have.

553
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:57.000
I think that they're Douglas Adams theory contained in them.

554
00:35:57.119 --> 00:35:59.340
I went to university with a chat.

555
00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.099
I did this class called Electronic Arts as an elective.

556
00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:04.739
That's where your funding money's gone to this.

557
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:12.539
And I was sort of doing the most conventional degree in that when we were going around the room, people were saying, oh, you know, I'm doing electronics art in new media.

558
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:14.760
I'm doing flash animation, I'm doing this.

559
00:36:14.820 --> 00:36:15.539
They get around to me.

560
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:20.579
Oh, I'm doing a bachelor of arts in English, and the tutor literally said, and what else?

561
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:21.960
And like, no, just that.

562
00:36:22.019 --> 00:36:22.679
What are you doing here?

563
00:36:22.739 --> 00:36:23.519
Oh, it's an elective.

564
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.239
Oh, okay, right.

565
00:36:24.300 --> 00:36:30.420
One of the guys who was, I think he must have been doing some kind of drama degree.

566
00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:36.659
The topic was the escape machine, and we had to do something about the escape machine.

567
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:37.860
It could be a video, it could be an animation.

568
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:38.519
I did a short film.

569
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:46.079
His escape machine, he would get broken down appliances and smash them with a sledgehammer.

570
00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:52.079
So his final piece was behind Plexiglass screens out the back.

571
00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:55.559
I was going to say, it could there could be a bit of offshooting in this could be painful.

572
00:36:55.559 --> 00:36:56.400
He was very safe.

573
00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:57.420
He wore goggles and everything.

574
00:36:57.480 --> 00:37:06.420
His final thing was to actually get his mother's old washing machine, which was always breaking down when he was a kid. he bought his mother a new he bought his mother a new washing machine.

575
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.159
So he got the old washing machine.

576
00:37:08.219 --> 00:37:12.119
He got the sledgehammer and just took 5 minutes to take it apart.

577
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:13.860
You called it Medea, didn't he?

578
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.019
Oh God, I don't know what he called it, but it was incredible.

579
00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:21.420
He played that on the video, didn't he?

580
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:22.260
It was incredibly odd.

581
00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:29.039
You know, we were undergraduates talking to each other and they tried to have it back. kind of like this podcast, really.

582
00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:41.639
They were also the cute pair of skater boys who I could never tell that they were just mates, or if they were a couple who hyperventilated as part of their final, as part of their final presentation for the escape machine and collapsed on the floor.

583
00:37:41.820 --> 00:37:46.559
It was also called Sunburst, you know, when it was 1st written, that's the, that was the acting title of this story.

584
00:37:46.619 --> 00:37:48.780
It was also called The Brain Steelers.

585
00:37:49.920 --> 00:37:59.579
Yeah, well, someone I know was in Cambridge and told me proudly that he was in the background of a scene of Doctor Who and the Brain Stealers.

586
00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:07.199
And I think he was there during that pickup, you know, where Skagra picks up the guy outside the Palm in Cambridge.

587
00:38:07.260 --> 00:38:18.420
And of course, Gareth makes that in his novelisation into a gay pickup, the guy that he picks up is gay and just thinks that he's being picked up by his scagger and his cape and sort of hat.

588
00:38:18.480 --> 00:38:27.420
And my friend was very sort of pleased with himself about being in the background of this and I had to gently inform him that the story never been made.

589
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:32.880
I will, I will say, possibly, this is a great point to close this out.

590
00:38:32.940 --> 00:38:34.199
It has been broadcast.

591
00:38:34.260 --> 00:38:40.019
The VHS version has been broadcast by UK TV in Australia during one of their repeat runs.

592
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:40.619
Wow.

593
00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:43.019
They broad they just broadcasted as an...

594
00:38:43.019 --> 00:38:44.039
Tom, the Tom thing.

595
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:45.059
As an omnibus version.

596
00:38:45.119 --> 00:38:46.199
Oh my goodness.

597
00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:46.980
How would that have been?

598
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:47.460
worked?

599
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:49.260
I've never been able to watch it all the way through.

600
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:51.300
You stop and have blue brakes.

601
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:53.340
Oh, well, they have that.

602
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:54.119
They have ads.

603
00:38:54.179 --> 00:38:54.960
Oh, yeah.

604
00:38:55.019 --> 00:38:56.280
But there you go.

605
00:38:56.340 --> 00:38:58.079
Australia leading the way for Doctor Who again.

606
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.340
Backwardly.

607
00:38:59.400 --> 00:38:59.699
Yes.

608
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.800
Well, we're doing everything else back with them.

609
00:39:01.860 --> 00:39:02.159
Yes.

610
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:05.219
Jenny Laird awards, gentlemen.

611
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:26.460
I have one and I kind of jump the gun a little bit, but I do want to mention friend of the podcast, Fiona, who wants to give the Jenny Laird award to something that we mentioned in Nightmare of Eden at the beginning of episode 4, the Incredibly Camp Spangley sequined guards who get variously hugged to death by the mandrals.

612
00:39:26.519 --> 00:39:30.420
They do feel like they're from Vidal Sassoon's blow bar.

613
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:31.559
They do.

614
00:39:31.619 --> 00:39:33.179
They really are quite magnificent.

615
00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:39.840
It is awfully sweet how the how the mandrells just sort of wave their arms at people and they fall over.

616
00:39:39.900 --> 00:39:44.760
They're clearly meant to be kind of shredding them with their claws, but it never really.

617
00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:48.000
As you say, it's the overpowering scent of that fungal underarm.

618
00:39:48.059 --> 00:39:49.619
That's it.

619
00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:51.960
But I think that's almost certainly it.

620
00:39:52.019 --> 00:40:04.440
But I do think that the thing that I think is a puzzling creative choice is, I don't think Doctor Who is about spaceships, and I don't think it's about science fiction.

621
00:40:04.500 --> 00:40:16.260
And here, Doctor Who has turned into a show, set on various spaceships, all of which have really kind of unimpressive corridors and things, as you pointed out at the time.

622
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:38.519
And so I think, although I love this season to death, visually it looks exhausted, there's no location footage for 12 consecutive episodes, we're in the studio in really kind of cheaply realised sets and everything's brown, you know, it's, it's ties.

623
00:40:38.579 --> 00:40:42.119
There's that marvellous line from, um...

624
00:40:42.119 --> 00:40:48.840
There's that fantastic line from Georgette Hire in the great Sophie, when she says, you're doing it to Brian.

625
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:50.940
Sophie.

626
00:40:51.000 --> 00:40:56.340
And it means over baking. was an 18th century. mine that ladies used, allegedly.

627
00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.360
But I do, I do believe she was actually also referring to the Williams era.

628
00:41:00.420 --> 00:41:00.960
Yes, yes.

629
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:04.800
My puzzling creative choice. probably won't be a surprise to anyone.

630
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:10.860
It's the decision to bring back Alan Bromley as a director.

631
00:41:11.099 --> 00:41:14.760
Because, yeah, he didn't do a bad job on the Time Warrior.

632
00:41:14.820 --> 00:41:17.880
That's the most heinous thing that's happened this season for you.

633
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:20.159
Um, yeah, yeah.

634
00:41:20.219 --> 00:41:22.619
It really is because That means the rest of it must have been pretty good.

635
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:23.159
Yeah.

636
00:41:23.219 --> 00:41:24.000
Oh, you know what?

637
00:41:24.059 --> 00:41:25.559
Because he doesn't do a bad job.

638
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:28.619
In terms of what we see on screen.

639
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.280
He does a bad job in terms of how he treated the actors.

640
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.820
Yeah, he's a bad job coalescing his performers to care about what they're doing.

641
00:41:35.880 --> 00:41:37.199
Yeah, or be integrated, yeah.

642
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:40.380
But, you know, at this point he was semi-retired.

643
00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:48.659
Graham Williams has been in a constant struggle for all 3 of his years as producer. for quality.

644
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:53.519
And we've had Michael Hayes directing.

645
00:41:53.639 --> 00:41:55.380
We do have some new directors as well.

646
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.679
We have Ken Greve, we have Kenny McBain, who are both new directors.

647
00:41:58.739 --> 00:41:59.400
They do a good job.

648
00:41:59.460 --> 00:42:01.260
We will have terrific Roberts.

649
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:01.920
Terrific drunks.

650
00:42:01.980 --> 00:42:03.900
That really helps too.

651
00:42:03.960 --> 00:42:06.059
And we've got old hands like Christopher Barry.

652
00:42:06.119 --> 00:42:11.280
Now, Christopher Barry is an old hand is much better than Alan Bromley as an old head.

653
00:42:11.340 --> 00:42:19.199
I just don't understand why such an inexperienced director, in terms of Doctor Who?

654
00:42:19.260 --> 00:42:21.000
He'd only done one other.

655
00:42:21.059 --> 00:42:27.300
He'd only done one other, and that was not a special effects intensive story as we discussed at the time. you know, that was mediaeval.

656
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:29.340
This had model shots.

657
00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:30.599
This had lasers.

658
00:42:30.659 --> 00:42:32.099
This had all studio.

659
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:38.280
We really needed someone who was confident with those things.

660
00:42:38.340 --> 00:42:45.179
Now, you could say he's confident with all studio because he worked in the early days of television, but things had moved on so very much.

661
00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:49.860
I mean, all that Quantel stuff. was pretty much left the visual effects department.

662
00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.980
Alan Bromley just kind of said, oh, you're doing a thing, you do your thing.

663
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:58.619
You know, there was no consultation between them about, what do you want this to look like, Alan?

664
00:42:58.679 --> 00:42:59.460
He didn't care.

665
00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:03.300
So he didn't care about special effect visuals.

666
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:05.579
He didn't care about the actors.

667
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:09.059
What did he care about?

668
00:43:09.179 --> 00:43:10.019
Why was he there?

669
00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:11.340
The bar.

670
00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:12.900
Paycheque.

671
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:17.460
And this is something I forgot to mention during Nightmare of Even, so I'll mention it now because it is relevant.

672
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:22.139
Because the crew all went out and had these t-shirts made afterwards.

673
00:43:22.199 --> 00:43:24.059
Bring back Billy Hartnell.

674
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:37.440
No, but the makeup designer, Joan Stribling, still has her t-shirt, and it's based on one of the final lines of the serial, and the t-shirt is purple with big gold letters.

675
00:43:37.500 --> 00:43:39.719
I'm glad the nightmare is over.

676
00:43:39.780 --> 00:43:41.340
Oh, wow.

677
00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:44.639
But yeah, that's my award.

678
00:43:44.699 --> 00:43:47.639
Not necessarily Alan Bromley himself, but just the decision.

679
00:43:47.699 --> 00:43:49.320
Don't worry, he's dead.

680
00:43:49.380 --> 00:43:50.519
I know, but still.

681
00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:53.280
The choice to have him in there.

682
00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:54.059
Yeah.

683
00:43:54.179 --> 00:43:55.380
I don't understand.

684
00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:00.719
Yeah, I'm amazed that Graham Looms was still able to breathe by the end of this season.

685
00:44:00.780 --> 00:44:02.880
I think that's absolutely true.

686
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:14.159
It's just been 3 really horrifically difficult years. you know, my puzzling creative choice is the BBC boffins, but I get where they're coming from.

687
00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:18.360
I think my choice would simply be really the state of anarchy in the UK.

688
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:21.539
It's led to this, but I don't know, it's weak point, isn't it?

689
00:44:21.599 --> 00:44:25.500
But I would have loved Douglas and Williams too, have continued on.

690
00:44:25.559 --> 00:44:36.000
I know that Adams wasn't going to stay for the next season, but they were putting together where this was going to go and they were looking at arcing this because it's one of the few shows where you can do that.

691
00:44:36.059 --> 00:44:36.780
Yes.

692
00:44:36.780 --> 00:44:38.099
Back in the day.

693
00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.719
Oh, well, there was upstairs downstairs.

694
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:42.300
But, you know, this could do it anywhere.

695
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:43.619
So, yeah, they got it.

696
00:44:43.679 --> 00:44:45.059
They were both really clever men.

697
00:44:45.179 --> 00:44:53.880
And we underestimate, oh, well, we don't, but we don't always give credit to just how much of creative work Williams was doing in this season.

698
00:44:54.000 --> 00:44:57.539
He wrote most of the things that we're seeing on here.

699
00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.539
He wrote a lot of City of Death, a lot of Sada.

700
00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:03.480
Yeah, a lot of the things that we really love.

701
00:45:03.539 --> 00:45:10.260
I think my post and creative choice would go to the heads, to McDonald, all the others for doing what they're about to do.

702
00:45:10.320 --> 00:45:12.480
I don't find many flaws in this.

703
00:45:12.539 --> 00:45:17.579
I find a lot of triumphs against the almost insurmountable.

704
00:45:17.639 --> 00:45:31.079
So I can't say, yeah, I agree with both of you and the individual things, but I would also say that they're quite small in the spectrum of it, because overall, I think the parsling things are the things we don't get to see.

705
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:36.659
We just get the ripple effects of the thoughtlessness and there's greed and the selfishness.

706
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:40.440
And of course, Douglas was giving us exactly that with his villains all the way through.

707
00:45:40.500 --> 00:45:44.760
And they are mono-dimensional because boring people just are.

708
00:45:44.820 --> 00:45:48.780
I've always enjoyed the Graham Williams era of Doctor Who.

709
00:45:48.840 --> 00:45:52.440
As much, though, as much as you...

710
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:58.380
Now that we've done this, now that we've done flight through entirety through the Graham Williams era, I love it even more.

711
00:45:58.440 --> 00:46:09.000
You know, because there are times I've written articles on Doctor Who and analysed Doctor Who, but really, so this podcast is the deepest I've analysed the Graham Williams era.

712
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:16.440
And more than any other era of Doctor Who, even when it goes wrong, you can see what they were trying to do.

713
00:46:16.860 --> 00:46:20.039
It's thematically proud and fine, isn't it?

714
00:46:20.099 --> 00:46:25.920
I mean, you can say that Hingecliff area, gosh, it looks so great, and there's so much high and low contrast.

715
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:28.860
There's so much divergence and so much to keep us engaged.

716
00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:33.179
But looking from this lovely point of the obber floaty obelisk.

717
00:46:33.239 --> 00:46:36.239
Um, shove up tod. very stifling in this thing.

718
00:46:36.300 --> 00:46:39.719
There's so much to admire of where they wanted to go with it.

719
00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:41.880
As you say, the treatment of the individual.

720
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.159
Yeah, it's I prefer it.

721
00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:46.860
I think I probably prefer it as well.

722
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:56.340
I think I was quite down on the Hingecliff era and apparently I was being contrarian perhaps, but it's nastier than it needed to be.

723
00:46:56.820 --> 00:46:59.340
Didn't treat the women very well.

724
00:46:59.400 --> 00:47:02.639
Well, the women that were in it, you know, there weren't all that many.

725
00:47:02.699 --> 00:47:04.500
It just lacked fun.

726
00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:08.219
And this, you're not going to feed Lalage into a garden compost.

727
00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:10.079
No, you definitely aren't.

728
00:47:10.139 --> 00:47:12.719
This is so witty and so funny.

729
00:47:12.780 --> 00:47:17.699
There is a real joy to it.

730
00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.880
And I just think that's spectacular.

731
00:47:20.940 --> 00:47:22.079
That's what Doctor Who needs.

732
00:47:22.139 --> 00:47:28.079
Doctor Who doesn't need to be a grim dark slog through various Nazi inspired battlefields.

733
00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:29.820
It should be fun.

734
00:47:29.940 --> 00:47:31.679
And you know what?

735
00:47:31.739 --> 00:47:38.400
I think as an era as a whole, this is the Doctor Who that makes you think about the ideas it's raising the most.

736
00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:42.719
We had some of that in the Pertwi era when Robert Sloman or Mac Hawk would write.

737
00:47:42.780 --> 00:47:50.820
You know, there'd be social commentary in those groups, didn't really have it in the Hingecliffe era, with the Hingecliffe era was, there are monsters there, we will kill them.

738
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:57.539
Whereas this, you know, sometimes the monsters aren't monsters and sometimes the nice people are monsters.

739
00:47:58.019 --> 00:48:02.159
And sometimes they're painted silver and we wonder how that happened.

740
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:05.099
Yeah, but I'm still thinking about that.

741
00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:09.360
I would say with the exception of underworld...

742
00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:23.099
With the exception of underworld, every Graham Williams story raises ideas that it doesn't answer itself and it doesn't answer them deliberately because it's inviting you to think about them without saying now you consider this.

743
00:48:23.340 --> 00:48:34.860
And I think the greatest triumph of that is something we referred to ages ago in the Sunmakers, when Terrence Sticks, who is a great writer, but at that time was pushing out these Doctor Who novelisation is really quickly.

744
00:48:34.920 --> 00:48:46.139
Terrence Dix thinks about the death of Gatherer Hayden adds something to that because Terrence Dix, who, as I say, great writer, but at this point, sort of just writing what's on the page.

745
00:48:46.199 --> 00:48:48.300
It looks like he's read that and gone, you know what?

746
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:49.920
I think this needs to be commented on.

747
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:56.340
And if you can teach something about writing to one of Doctor Who's greatest writers.

748
00:48:56.460 --> 00:48:58.320
That's a job well done.

749
00:48:58.800 --> 00:49:00.599
Picks of the week.

750
00:49:00.659 --> 00:49:02.519
These are all things that we've mentioned.

751
00:49:02.579 --> 00:49:17.400
I've got 3 and they are basically the novelisation of City of Death by James Goss, the novelisation of Shada by Gareth Roberts, and the respective audiobooks of them, which are read by Lala Ward.

752
00:49:17.460 --> 00:49:21.539
If you've never read them, you really, really ought to.

753
00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:22.679
They're just terrific.

754
00:49:22.739 --> 00:49:27.059
And I was so delighted by James Goss, the city of death novelisation.

755
00:49:27.119 --> 00:49:28.440
I just think it's superb.

756
00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:29.219
You need to read it, Richard.

757
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:29.760
It's really good.

758
00:49:29.820 --> 00:49:31.139
I do, I suppose.

759
00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:32.400
It's really good.

760
00:49:32.460 --> 00:49:36.599
And I guess the other pick is license denied, which we've mentioned a couple of times.

761
00:49:36.659 --> 00:49:49.380
That's by Paul Cornell, who once named a character after me in a new adventure, and it's a whole heap of stuff from fanzines and things, but it includes 2 really important articles that we've cited about the Williams era.

762
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:50.159
It's well worth a read.

763
00:49:50.219 --> 00:49:51.059
It's a lovely thing.

764
00:49:51.119 --> 00:49:55.800
Speaking of novels about naughty art, thefts, and things.

765
00:49:55.860 --> 00:50:16.920
Watching this again, and indeed reading the sharder book, took me back to through Gareth Roberts, too, someone who I think must have been, if not known by, and I haven't checked whether Douglas Adams and Kiro Bonfilioli, the British writer, were mates, but they're certainly very similar people, just working slightly different mediums.

766
00:50:16.980 --> 00:50:22.980
Kill Bonfilioli is a British writer who wrote them Mordecai trilogy.

767
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:36.119
It's about, as he said, this is not autobiographer, autobiographical, it's about some other portly dissolute, immoral, middle-aged art dealer who really doesn't care about anything but having a great deal of fun.

768
00:50:36.179 --> 00:50:37.860
They're terrific books.

769
00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:43.980
And they feel like Douglas Adams for naughty grown-ups.

770
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:45.480
They can get very dark.

771
00:50:45.539 --> 00:50:50.039
They're pretty much thrillers in chase books and crime novels, but they're also hilarious.

772
00:50:50.099 --> 00:50:53.099
And when they're funny, they're pure Douglas Adams.

773
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.980
Unfortunately, the writer drank himself to an early death.

774
00:50:56.039 --> 00:51:06.900
So in a couple of the best books, there have been chapters written by others, and it really clangs, but that's a very Douglas Adams Drayne Williams experience as well.

775
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:11.519
So yes, I'll include him in the, well, Nathan will kindly include him in the show notes.

776
00:51:11.579 --> 00:51:22.380
But if you wanted to read more of the feel of this season, but maybe for people more your own age now and still just be a part of this for a bit longer, I really recommend this fellow.

777
00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:26.280
There's not a lot to read, didn't publish very much, so fantastic.

778
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:30.420
My pick is gently is holistic detective agency.

779
00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:31.980
How did we not mention that?

780
00:51:32.039 --> 00:51:35.219
Because we are so seen.

781
00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:39.119
I think we may have alluded to it earlier.

782
00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:42.239
But about, oh, 10 years?

783
00:51:42.300 --> 00:51:43.139
afterwards?

784
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:43.980
Late 80s?

785
00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:55.800
Douglas Adams, you know, flush with success after Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, wrote 2 books, uh, Doke Gently's holistic detective agency, and the long dark tea time of the soul.

786
00:51:55.860 --> 00:52:05.519
Dirt Gently Holistic Detective Agency uses a lot of elements from Shada, and a few elements from City of Death, including the character of Chronotis.

787
00:52:05.699 --> 00:52:09.179
And the fact he's got a time machine and what have you.

788
00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:15.420
I certainly recommend the 1st book if you've enjoyed this season, it's very in keeping with the tone.

789
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:17.340
The 2nd book is more its own thing.

790
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:18.599
I like the 2nd book a lot.

791
00:52:18.659 --> 00:52:20.639
The 2nd book's good as well. just quite a different beast.

792
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:21.179
Yeah, yeah.

793
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:29.280
Gently has a very interesting life at the moment because there was a run of 4 episodes of the TV series on BBC 4 a few years ago.

794
00:52:29.340 --> 00:52:33.539
They're very good, but they expunge some of the more fantastical elements.

795
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:35.880
But they're a very good thing in their own right.

796
00:52:35.940 --> 00:52:39.420
It's Stephen and Mangan, Asdirk Gently.

797
00:52:39.480 --> 00:52:45.480
Richard Boyd, as McDuff, and Kate Beckensale, as Susan.

798
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:48.539
But yeah, I do recommend this book.

799
00:52:48.900 --> 00:52:52.019
The books are...

800
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:59.760
They're very Douglas, but they're also very different from hitchhikers because hitchhikers, of course, goes off on the tangent because it's got the device of the book.

801
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:02.519
Whereas dirt gently.

802
00:53:02.579 --> 00:53:10.559
Well, it is a confusing narrative, because it's Douglas Adams, it's still much easier to follow.

803
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.760
And if you've ever found that you've tried reading hitchhikers and you can't get your head into it.

804
00:53:14.820 --> 00:53:20.219
Give Dirk gently a try because there will be things that happen in it where you go, I don't see where this is going.

805
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:23.039
By the time you get to the last page, you'll understand exactly where it was.

806
00:53:23.099 --> 00:53:24.059
It's incredibly rewarding.

807
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:25.380
It's like a puzzle box.

808
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:27.659
It's really, really carefully plotted.

809
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:43.320
There has also been a very good radio adaptation by Dirk Maggs, who was responsible for the tertiary quadronary and quintessential phases of the hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy, but I recommend starting with the book.

810
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.019
Dirk Gently's holistic detective agency.

811
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:09.300
Well, we've come to the end of Season 17, And you know what, for the first, for the first time at the end of an era, I feel quite sad to be saying goodbye to Graham Williams.

812
00:54:09.420 --> 00:54:09.900
Thank you.

813
00:54:10.019 --> 00:54:20.519
But we will be going into a brave new world as we touch down on Brighton Beach for the leisure hive, and you may find more changes next season as well.

814
00:54:20.579 --> 00:54:25.139
Top will be back for the leisure hive, and Richard will be back, possibly when you least expect him.

815
00:54:25.199 --> 00:54:27.300
Because I don't know yet, either.

816
00:54:27.780 --> 00:54:39.539
Until then, please check us out online. flights through entirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter and go ahead and share us around with everyone you know and love as well.

817
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:48.059
We'd love to have some new listeners And over on Bondfinger, we have an array of commentary podcast recorded.

818
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:51.000
I don't know where we're up to at this juncture.

819
00:54:51.059 --> 00:54:52.860
I will look it up before we do leisure hive.

820
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:57.780
Bondfinger.com Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

821
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:02.880
I like putting them both on at the same time in either ear and they make a lot more sense.

822
00:55:02.940 --> 00:55:05.460
One finger in one ear and us in the eye.

823
00:55:05.519 --> 00:55:07.980
Unlike the end of the Williams era.

824
00:55:08.699 --> 00:55:13.139
And until then, may none of your balls suck your brains out through your forehead.

825
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:14.159
Thank you very much and good night.

826
00:55:14.280 --> 00:55:14.760
Good night.

827
00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:16.320
So I have to let the water out of this then.

828
00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:23.159
That was fight through entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

829
00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:28.260
This episode, chaotic intent, was recorded on the 6th of February 2016.

830
00:55:28.500 --> 00:55:31.199
Flat your entirety will return on April 3rd.

831
00:55:31.260 --> 00:55:33.599
They really will publish anything nowadays.

832
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:37.079
Check out the reviews for the Conservative Revolution by Corgi Bernardi.

833
00:55:37.139 --> 00:55:37.920
See you in 5 weeks.

834
00:55:43.980 --> 00:55:46.260
Charter, 6th of February.

835
00:55:46.380 --> 00:55:50.280
It's the Shada, usually, the Shada.

836
00:55:50.340 --> 00:55:51.539
You know what, Nathan?

837
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:56.159
Do you know what I mean?