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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:30:33

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast with perfectly adequate Seawater Defences.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm Todd Hamilton Dead Meet.

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Oh, I mean Todd Andrew Bealby.

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What am I thinking?

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I think we'll be asking that question a lot over the next few weeks.

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We are back after taking a month off.

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And we're heading down to Brighton Beach for the leisure hive.

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This is actually the second time, a new incoming producer has had the doctor try to get to Brighton Beach for the opening of the pavilion.

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The Great Williams era starts with the doctor ending up on Fang Rock after trying to get to Brighton Beach.

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So it becomes a bit of a tradition.

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I was a little bit disappointed that Paul McGand didn't start on Brighton Beach or Christopher Nicholson, but so it's not a pattern, but it is he's a bit of a callback, I think.

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This is mine and I actually begged to get this one.

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This is my massacre, as it were.

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Yes, yes.

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And the reason is not, I think, because it's my favourite story, but it is up there, but because it really represents like a massive kind of watershed, I think, in the history of Doctor Who.

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We've been on a bit of an upward trajectory, then things have gone a little bit a little bit pear shaped during the Williams era, although...

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Yeah, yeah, we came to the conclusion, certainly, that we enjoyed the Williams era, but at the same time, we weren't blind to its faults, and especially to, shall we say, the puzzling creative choices they're in.

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Yeah, that was it.

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They were production problems, weren't there?

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And they were really evident on the screen in what went to a hand.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, more times than not, like over the last 3 years.

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The production values. haven't always been what we would hope them to be because of inflation and here we are, 1980.

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And uh, It's all change.

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In fact, I don't think I go back to my childhood experiences of watching Doctor Who very much, but I actually remember this coming on, and thinking that it must have been a show about Doctor Who rather than actual Doctor Who, because I think my only experience, and I may be remembering it wrong, was of the Bernard Lodge slit scan title sequence.

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That was the only thing. you know, suddenly there's this new music, there's this Starfield, and I thought, oh, you know, maybe it's a promo for Doctor Who.

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I knew there was a new season starting, but we didn't have the internet back then and our televisions were driven by steam and that kind of thing.

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So I had no idea to expect anything different.

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I didn't know about producers or anything like that.

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Did we have any repeats going into this?

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Did we have season 17 and then this just started or was it announced in like the TV week magazine that it was a new series?

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Can you remember?

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I think they held it back.

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It is actually possible to look up these air dates and things, and I've done that in the past.

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I've, you know, went back and found out what day I must have 1st watched Doctor Who on.

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So those repeats are available on the internet.

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My memory is that they held season 18 back because they wanted to go more or less straight into season 19 in order to ease the transition.

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So, my memory is that we waited a long time before they showed this season and that it went pretty much straight into the 1st Davison season.

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It's interesting.

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I have a similar sort of experience like you.

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Like, I knew this was new.

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I knew it was going to be new, but I was expecting those traditional title sequences.

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And then, The Starfield thing just burst onto the screen.

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And to this day, I can still remember going, what the hell is this?

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Then my brain went, oh my goodness, it's Doctor Who, they cannot change their opening credits.

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Oh, no, Tom Baker is going to leave the show.

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These things literally went in my mind, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

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So I didn't really process the opening credits very much, because I was, like, devastated that they changed it.

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And I didn't know Tom was going to leave, but that went through my head because my only other experience was the fact that during the repeats, I worked out that John's last sequence of stories, they changed his in credits.

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And so it was like, 0 my goodness, Tom is going to leave and I was just like, you know, mortified.

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Of course, you know, several stories later, I'd forgotten about the whole thing.

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But all of that was going through my mind, so I didn't really take into opening credits until episode two.

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So do we know this 1st season, and this is going to be a theme of our next few episodes, I think.

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This 1st season looks amazing.

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It doesn't look vastly more expensive.

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There are still, you know, plenty of ropey effects, even in this story.

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There are things that look cheap or don't quite work.

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But there's... a real flair to the design and a real concern about making the show look better. like an awareness that it had looked tired.

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But I think that might come from John Nathan Turner.

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And what he wants to do with the show and getting different people into design, different directors.

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There's an energy there, and I think having a different script editor, again, been on the same page, maybe having Barry Letts around as executive producer initially to try and bring things into the 80s.

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You know, maybe it's just a culmination of all those factors that they're really trying to to take things in a different direction.

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Yeah, Barry Letts was on record as not having liked the more comedic direction the show had gone.

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And actually, I use comedic in sort of, as much as I hate to say it, air quotes there, because really, it's not like the Williams era is a comedy.

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It just has moments of comedy in it.

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So yeah, Barry Letts was certainly a big influence.

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I think visually something I've noticed in season 18 compared to season 17 is... sort of layering in the sets.

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There's different levels.

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So, you know, you look at it as a flat image and something we discussed with Nightmare of Eden, for instance, was that the corridors were all flats.

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There was no relief into the walls, like nothing was pressed in.

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Whereas, you know, in leisure hive, we get all these shots and you have something in the foreground, then you have the actors, then you have the background.

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And you see that in other stories as well, full circle, which we'll discuss in a few weeks.

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There's corridors leading off in different directions, you know, there's one going upstage and one going sideways and that sort of thing.

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So I think that immediately makes it feel like a more real place.

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Like, we're sitting in mine and Rod's flat at the moment.

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And, you know, the table over there is not pushed up against the wall.

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It's in the middle of the room and you have to, you have to walk around it.

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The sofa here is not pushed up against the wall either.

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So, it's a real space, things aren't just 3 walls in a prosenium arch.

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And I think that's something the series does so well, and especially the leisure height, but that did lead to problems, as we'll discuss.

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So the leisure heights directed by loved Bigford, who never comes back to direct again.

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He does a massive overspend and can't be invited back.

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And he does, I think, you know, the best job of directing a Doctor Who serial to date.

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And I think this is one of the most visually striking Doctor Who serials ever.

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I don't think the show ever gets quite as good looking as this again.

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I think maybe Graham Harper later on.

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But goodness, this looks great.

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And what he's done is, instead of the usual studio thing of having three cameras, which you can't, between live, he's directing its single camera, the way that they direct it now, and that's obviously slower, and more expensive.

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But it really shows on screen.

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And what he successfully does is exactly what you identified, Brendan, is he creates a real sense of space.

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So, the leisure hive corridors are not hugely lavish, but they have ceilings, the sound design is done in such a way that you can hear the voices echoing off the walls.

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It doesn't just fall into a dead studio set, and there are things in the foreground.

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There's shots with a really sort of narrow depth of fields, so there are things out of focus in the background, so our eyes are drawn into particular places.

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There are beautifully composed shots.

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Like my notes are just, 0 my god, now there's this shot.

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And like one of them is the doctor Romana and Mina discussing the war and the 3 of them are the shot side on, the 3 of the faces are all sort of visible, the, you know, one behind the other, and the light from outside, which is the result of the devastation of the war is playing on their faces.

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And it's just beautifully framed and composed.

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Another shot where we're outside the hive.

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And the camera comes in through the window into the boardroom.

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You know, like the model is not great, but the camera moves slowly as the model's in shot and we move up on it.

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The music, like the music is just unbelievably spectacularly good.

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You talk about the music Dudley Simpson is no longer gone.

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And I don't think he could have ever fit into this season with all of his woodwinds in that.

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It has to be this straight away, this electronic 1980s music that, I don't know, it just has this impact.

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I even get shivers now, just thinking about it, like this whole season.

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It just has this feel and this texture that adds this where suddenly in 1980.

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And Peter Howell is so, so clever.

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On the DVD, there's a documentary where Peter Howe talks about his incidental music and also how he came up with the theme.

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And the fact that the theme includes a vocoda, to try and get an organic sound into this technological music.

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And also he talks about how holsts the planets influenced the music of the leisure hive, especially when you get Pangol's March at the end. brilliant piece of music.

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So over the next 9 years, we're going to get a lot of electronic music in Doctor Who, almost exclusively electronic music.

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I think Marquez brings in an acoustic guitar at one point much later.

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And it's all going to be to varying, varying success levels, but I think for the next 5 series, while we have the Peter Howell theme, it's the Peter Howell scores that always sound the best, just because it's so seamless.

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How much does he do?

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I know it's him and Patty Kingsland this year.

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Yeah, it's him and Patty Kingsland.

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So he does, he does the leisure hive.

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Of course, he started off on Revenge of the Cybermen.

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Oh, really?

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Enhancing Kerry Blyton's score.

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I think we said at the time.

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Yeah.

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Meglos, Warrior's Gate.

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Kinder, Snake Dance, the King's Demons, the 5 Doctors, the Awakening, Planet of Fire, and the 2 Doctors.

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So he does like 2 or 3 stories a year for the next 5 years.

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I've just listened to Sylvan Nemesis.

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I listened to, watched it.

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And its music is just horrifically bad.

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And that's Kev McCulloch, who will also go on to arrange the theme.

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And so the electronic music doesn't have to be good.

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I mean, it can be terrible.

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Yeah, yeah.

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This year.

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All this year, the music is spectacularly great.

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And here in particular, because you've got these establishing shots or the shots of the earth shuttle arriving, where it's all just told by the music in this sort of fabulously operatic way, these little interludes, musical interludes between parts of the story.

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That's exactly, yeah, that's exactly what it feels like.

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You just get the impression that everyone working on this.

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And some people have read this as, you know, they hated what had come before, so they wanted to change everything, and I don't think it's that.

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I think it's that the people coming in.

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John Nathan Turner, Barry Letts, Christopher Bidmead, Peter Howell, all had a love for the show, and wanted to do the best they could buy it.

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So, I mean, when people say, oh, you know, they get rid of the humour.

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The thing is, they really don't.

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There are still jokes in this.

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But if you actually watch the making of, their meat in cell says we rip too much of the humour out of this one.

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There wasn't the right balance.

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It was too serious.

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And I think you have a couple of humourous moments, but it's sort of like, where is the humour I feel in this story at times when I think it needs it.

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I mean, there's that wonderful joke about, well, arrest the scar that Tom says.

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I mean, that I just burst out laughing, but it's sort of like, I need a bit more in this.

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And they do address that.

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I think they then swing it back and buy full circle.

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Bid Means worked out how to sort of keep the humour and that sort of thing.

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Yeah, there's one really strange scene where the doctor renders a guide unconscious by exposing him to chalk equations on on the TARDIS. the guides overcome and his faint.

155
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That is a bit weird, yeah.

156
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It's a David Fisher script, and those scripts are always hilariously funny, and this one doesn't really have that much humour in it at all.

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No.

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And I think one of the best comebacks I've heard against Bid Meads approach, and I'm quite a fan of Bid Meads work.

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But on the commentary for this, when canine gets blown up in the 1st episode.

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Chris Bid Means starts talking.

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Sorry, Christopher Hamilton bit me. starts, if you're listening.

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So I was talking about how they wanted to get rid of magical objects like Kano, you know, things could get you out in a single band, and la, la, with all this wonderful restrained venom, says, well, the TARDIS is magical, Chris.

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Why not just get rid of the TARDIS?

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You know, you kind of do appreciate her point.

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And being a David Fisher's group.

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This started out in a very different place.

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As, you know, it was going to be more comedic.

168
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It was going to be more of a, it was going to be a send up of the mafia.

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Yeah, so Marsi is an anagram of mafiosi famously.

170
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It's not really about their giant squashy bottoms at all.

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I just thought that would be something Richard would say.

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And it was originally going to be called the Fomasi, I think.

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Yes, that's right.

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At some point.

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The Westlodger are giving the argument an offer they can't refuse.

176
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Can we talk about Christopher Bidmead?

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I do want to spend another 20 minutes just talking about how fabulously directed this is.

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Oh, before we do bidmead, can I just say that earth shuttle arriving, I think on the commentary, Bidmead and maybe Lala complain about the earth shuttle arriving sequences because they don't really look like anything.

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It's something like descending into a hole and they might say that.

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I would agree with them.

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I find them after a while.

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I kind of go, oh, not another not another Earth shuttle arriving sequence.

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But it could have been like a crappy spaceship dangling on some fishing wire.

184
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Yes, it could have.

185
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Yes, yes, it's very stylised and, you know, yeah.

186
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And it's those musical interludes as well because it's always accompanied by Peter Howe just going crazy over the soundtrack.

187
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And so that's really wonderful and it sort of punctuates the action.

188
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So I do quite like that.

189
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Were Rod and I the only ones to sort of get a double entendre out of those scenes?

190
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Yeah, sort of thing.

191
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Yeah Okay, fair enough.

192
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Can we talk bit, mate?

193
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I really, really like Bidme as group editor here, even though he rips out all the jokes, but I do think he's a terrible critic, and anything that he says about his time on the show tends to be wrong.

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His interview in DWM about the new series just made him look like a fool, you know, like he's the one who said, oh, you know, the Sonic Screwdriver is terrible in the new series because it's magical and it can get the doctor out of anything, and everyone knows that Doctor Who fans enjoy episode 3 where the doctor's locked up, you know, and can't get out because that's terribly interesting.

195
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No, it's not.

196
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It enables us to have long scenes of the doctor unable to deal with walls and locks and things, which are really super entertaining.

197
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Please see snake dance.

198
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Yeah, yes, yes.

199
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That's right I've just watched Black Orchid.

200
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So, you know, that sort of thing is stupid.

201
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:34.319
And like he thinks that the soap opera stuff in the new series isn't great, even though that's precisely what he introduces in his own series.

202
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:40.140
He says he's getting rid of the magic, but season 18 is full of magic.

203
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:44.400
You know, there's lots of talk about science and stuff, but it's full of magic.

204
00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:46.259
See, Warrior's Gate.

205
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:47.579
See, Legopolis.

206
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:48.059
Yeah.

207
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:53.759
It's really interesting that a lot of the DVDs have got makings of and he's obviously interviewed.

208
00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:00.960
And Hearing what he has to say about how the story is developed is really intriguing.

209
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:02.400
I'm not gonna sort of spoil it.

210
00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:11.039
But it's also very interesting to see his take, and the writers take, and some writers who he obviously gets on with, and others that he doesn't.

211
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:21.420
For example, in this one, he mentions that, oh, David Fisher will probably try and claim credit for the tachyonics being introduced.

212
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:30.180
You cut to David Fisher saying, well, no, is really interested in that and I, you know, put that into the script. sort of they contradict each other.

213
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:40.440
Maybe that's why David never came back to the program again, which is a shame, really, because I think he's delivered 4.5 really wonderful scripts, you know, for the show.

214
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:43.980
And I think it's a shame that he, after this, he is no mortal.

215
00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.299
I think Bidmead, in a way, is a lot like George Lucas.

216
00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:56.759
In that, you know, George Lucas created Star Wars and gave us the three really great first films.

217
00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:02.460
And he was the right person for those films at the time.

218
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:08.220
You know, flash forward 30 years, we start getting the prequels for Star Wars.

219
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:13.259
And, you know, they're not all terrible, but they don't live up to...

220
00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:15.900
They don't live up to the first three.

221
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:22.559
And it's kind of like, you know, George Lucas still has very good ideas, but he's not the person to make these films now.

222
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:27.779
Bidmead's ideas for Doctor Who were revolutionary in 1980.

223
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:32.519
And even, you know, in 1984, when he turns in the script for Frontios.

224
00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:37.140
And then in 1986, where he turns in The Hollows of Time, which has since been made by Big Finish.

225
00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:42.059
You know, he's still coming up with great ideas for classic Doctor Who.

226
00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:42.539
Yeah.

227
00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:47.819
He's not the right person for Doctor Who now.

228
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:48.539
Yeah.

229
00:19:48.599 --> 00:20:03.180
And I say that with the greatest of love, because saying that doesn't invalidate what was done at the time, you know, you could say H.G. Wells wouldn't be able to write a good Doctor Who script if he was still alive today, writing in the same way he did then.

230
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.720
Bob Baker and Dave Martin wouldn't be able to write it a good Doctor Who story.

231
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:08.220
Ever they, ever?

232
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.980
Sorry.

233
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.920
Oh dear.

234
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.380
Can I say a few words about K9?

235
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:17.400
Yeah, go on.

236
00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:18.180
4 K9.

237
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:19.859
So John Leeson's back.

238
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.859
I think David Breeley actually didn't want to do it anymore.

239
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:24.900
You know, he kind of went, oh, you know, I've done it for you.

240
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:28.980
And JNT said, look, John Leason, do you want to come back?

241
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.259
And John's like, well, no, I am starting to get other work.

242
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.039
And I da da.

243
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:33.240
And he said, we're going to kill the dog.

244
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:33.539
Right.

245
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.039
When can I start?

246
00:20:35.099 --> 00:20:36.839
since John leaves it.

247
00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:39.539
So, yeah, they blow him up straight away in this.

248
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.160
So he's not in the rest of this story.

249
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.220
Plus, the scene on Brighton Beach.

250
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:53.519
It's quite amazing because, you know, when we when we last see the doctor in Romana in the horns of Nymon, they're sort of having a joke about how Romana's in great condition.

251
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:56.819
Not you, the TARDIS and, you know, they have that Scooby-Doo ending.

252
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:07.380
And then the 1st time we see them here, they're just ratting at each other and Romana's ratty with canine and canines pernickety, and the doctor doesn't care, the canines just blown up.

253
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.220
It kind of sets up the tone of the season.

254
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.519
Do you know, I love that. love that scene.

255
00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.200
I'm really...

256
00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:18.720
So do I, but it's just amazing how the relationships have changed.

257
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.960
The scene on Brighton Beach, when everyone's grumpy with each other.

258
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:26.640
Even the 90 seconds of slow panning across the beach, I think is spectacular.

259
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:27.720
And I'll tell you why.

260
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:33.059
Because on the commentary, both Bidmead and Lala Ward say, why is this scene here?

261
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:41.220
And it's very, very clear that this scene is a response or a reaction against the previous year.

262
00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:49.920
And we spent the previous year complaining about how we never go on location, we're in like constant brown claustrophobic sets that are dull.

263
00:21:49.980 --> 00:22:07.559
And so we start with a scene where it's really, really directed in a, in an artistic way, and in a way that isn't about furthering the narrative, it's about creating just pretty pictures and soundscapes.

264
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:16.680
The sound design on that scene is terrific, the music is fantastic, the seagulls, you get Tom snoring gradually coming up.

265
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:21.960
You get the beautiful Brighton pavilion thing out of focus in the background.

266
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:27.900
When canine explodes, there's a massive reaction from the seagulls.

267
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:35.940
You know, you get Romana coming up from the beach behind sand that's out of focus in the foreground.

268
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.480
The whole thing.

269
00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:38.099
Ursula Andros movie.

270
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:39.900
Ursula Andrews moment.

271
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.119
The whole thing just looks great.

272
00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:46.319
It looks so great and it's really just saying this is going to be new.

273
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:47.400
This is something great.

274
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:53.519
And given that it is, you know, leading into a story that is just in a studio set.

275
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:56.759
It's like a spectacularly well shot and what the science studio said.

276
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.579
This is saying we're not last used Doctor Who.

277
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:02.400
This is something going to be really, really new.

278
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:04.980
And maybe it goes on for maybe 5 seconds too long.

279
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.259
But it is...

280
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:09.539
It looks so great.

281
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.220
I could just watch it over and over again.

282
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.019
I agree with you artistically.

283
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.119
I think the length of it is far too long.

284
00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:19.980
Um, so it's it's a criticism that's been levelled at it before.

285
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:24.900
I'd much prefer it to come in and the snoring to snark much sooner.

286
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:28.980
There's no logic behind canine and going to get the ball in the sea.

287
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:30.119
I just think it's stupid.

288
00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:33.539
Like he's not that dumb, but he's made to seem that dumb.

289
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:38.160
Lala has her worst moment in this story where she screams canine.

290
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.859
It's so over the top and it's utterly awful.

291
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:41.759
That's my opinion.

292
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:43.500
I know that you're shaking your head.

293
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.119
I'm just going to express my opinion.

294
00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:47.700
Everything that we say is our opinion, though.

295
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:48.900
This is a safe place.

296
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:49.440
Okay.

297
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:57.539
So other than that, Falala, I think the rest of this story is an absolute tour de force for her. absolutely.

298
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.480
I think it's possibly her best performance is Romana.

299
00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:02.160
Obviously I haven't been around last season.

300
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:12.720
It took me a long time to get used to her as Romana after Mary and I personally feel that she doesn't really hit the mark until the nightmare of Eden.

301
00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:18.059
I think she's fantastic in the horns and I'm on and mean this, I just, every other choice.

302
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:23.099
Besides that one sequence, and I think it's just the fact that I think it's silly that canine blows up.

303
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:28.319
But I agree that it's beautifully shot and all the visuals are great, but I just think it's dumb.

304
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:32.880
But every other choice that she makes in this story is just phenomenal.

305
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.200
Phenomenal.

306
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:35.039
She's amazing.

307
00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:44.160
Look, I would, you know how much I love Mary Tam, but in this, in this story, I know you said that Mary took a year off acting, in this story, she outacts Mary 100,000%.

308
00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:50.460
Because especially her various reactions to like the doctor being pulled, oh, and then her reaction to the doctor being an old man.

309
00:24:50.519 --> 00:25:01.740
It's not that over the top reaction from the 1st scene, it's it's horror and it's concern and it's affection and it's all these different emotions rolled up into one and she does it so well.

310
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.700
I'd like to talk about Tom's costume, which is a good idea.

311
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:11.099
Which is John Nathan Turner wanted the whole look of the doctor redesigned by Jen Hudson.

312
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:21.720
Really interesting that June in the documentary says that he was quite happy for the scarf to go as well, but she actually put her foot down and said, no, it had to remain.

313
00:25:21.779 --> 00:25:36.059
I think there's a number of decisions in this season that what John wants to do and what John actually gets are 2 different things, and thank goodness for serendipity, where some people say, no, that's not the right way to go or it doesn't quite work out.

314
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:40.319
Um, the way he wants it to, but it ends up what's on screen actually works.

315
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:47.940
I mean, she also was violently against having the question marks in the colons, but, you know, put them in suckling, and I think that's okay.

316
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.140
They're not subtle enough.

317
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:59.579
Okay, they're not, but, you know, I'm just going to say this, the colour of the costume and the shape of the hat and all that, absolutely and totally, utterly hate it.

318
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:00.779
Oh, really?

319
00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:01.559
In this story.

320
00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:02.940
I absolutely hate it.

321
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.940
Ask me the same question in our next podcast.

322
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.559
Let's see what I'm feeling.

323
00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:12.599
But I really, throughout all of this, it's sort of like the doctor looks older and then is older.

324
00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:13.559
Yeah, yeah.

325
00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:17.279
I just don't like the colour of the costume.

326
00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:19.019
It's just this uniform thing.

327
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.680
I don't know perhaps because the doctor's age so much.

328
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:25.079
Like Tom always used to be so vital and young.

329
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:30.900
I mean, in this, he's not and he's not humourous and he's not quite, there's a change.

330
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:31.980
Yeah.

331
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:32.339
And.

332
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:43.200
Something I discovered when I was researching the story is, Tom and Lala had actually broken up for the 1st time, after Shada, and they were still broken up during this.

333
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:52.920
Tom suddenly realised, hold on, this is a terrible mistake. you know, I'd like us to, I'd like us to be together again, and Lala didn't at this stage.

334
00:26:52.980 --> 00:27:01.079
And, you can actually track the progress of this relationship from story to story. season 18.

335
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:02.640
What fun on the set?

336
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:03.660
exactly.

337
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:09.000
But the amazing thing is, you would never know watching their performances.

338
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:13.619
You know, they are still so, so good together in terms of performance.

339
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:25.799
But I do, I do have to wonder because when we see, when we see Tom now, you know, of course, sometimes when you see Tom being interviewed, it's hard to tell if he's being Tom or if he's being Tom Baker, but...

340
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:36.299
He always seems to be a very emotional person, but not, he tries not to let his emotions rule him.

341
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:41.099
So, I would imagine, you know, that if he'd fallen head over heels for Lala.

342
00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:54.420
And then, sort of, one of them said, I don't think this is working, then they both agreed, but then, six months later, You know, that could, in terms of visibly, in terms of the face, that could age a person, that stress.

343
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:04.319
And it does seem to have happened, because, you know, it's like his first six years as a doctor, he kind of changes a little in the face, but not very much, and then all of a sudden, in this season.

344
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:09.779
You know, he does look so different, and then you've got the very different costume and what have you.

345
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.839
Years ago, we had Dudley for a convention.

346
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.900
And I had the pleasure of interviewing him.

347
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:26.099
And someone, during the Q&A, asked, you know, Dudley, how did it feel to, you know, stop working on the program after so long?

348
00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:29.700
And that's where Dudley told the story of, look, you know, John Nathan Turner's very nice man.

349
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:36.779
He'd worked on the show almost as long as I had in one capacity or another, he actually took me out to dinner and explained the whole thing.

350
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:43.500
And I said to him, okay, John, you might be getting rid of me, and I completely understand that you have this new direction.

351
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.380
But you have to keep something of the old show.

352
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:55.920
If you change the costume, and the music, and the theme and the titles, and the way it looks, how are people going to know they're watching the same show?

353
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.579
And Dudley Zeddy even said in that dinner.

354
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:04.740
Out of all those, I'm the obvious one to get rid of, because I'm not visual, but you've got to keep something.

355
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:12.839
And, I mean, it seems to have shown, because the ratings in the UK, sorry to steal your usual thing, Tom.

356
00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:14.099
Oh, I'm sitting here.

357
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:14.880
I know where you're going.

358
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:17.700
They were 6000000 for the 1st episode.

359
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:18.359
The low.

360
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:19.259
Oh, no, was it lower?

361
00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:21.240
5.9, 5.9.

362
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:37.619
Now, this is the 1st time Doctor Who has hit these levels since Inferno, and they will go lower, as low as 3.7 in a few weeks time, which is like this whole season is a ratings disaster, disaster.

363
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:38.460
Sorry, Brendan.

364
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:38.880
That all right.

365
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:46.740
No, I was just going to say, it's the lowest rating season opener since the smugglers, where, you know, Doctor Who was on the verge of cancellation.

366
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.859
It also didn't help that it was up against Buck Rogers.

367
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:54.900
The first 20 episodes of this season are up against Buck Rogers and Doctor Who drops out of the top 100 shows.

368
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.480
By the end of this story, I think.

369
00:29:57.660 --> 00:29:59.460
Episode two.

370
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:01.440
Do you remember Bach Rogers?

371
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:02.700
I've never seen it.

372
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:03.839
It's so poor.

373
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:13.500
I remember the buzz for it and we watched it like initially, the 1st episode or 2 and then my father said, I can't stand that robot thing.

374
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:14.460
We're never watching this again.

375
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:18.480
It makes original Battlestar Galactica look like Chekhov.

376
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:20.400
So bad.

377
00:30:20.460 --> 00:30:24.059
If you want something really terrible from around the same time.

378
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.099
Jason of Star Command.

379
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.079
Oh, I've never even heard of that.

380
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:37.140
Um, so it's kind of film like Doctor Who in the, it's a very prosini march, but it's usually just filmed on one film camera and they just don't move, the camera is just static.

381
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:39.599
And then they do one or 2 close-ups later.

382
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:50.160
It was a spinoff of, I think, a show called Star Command, featuring Jonathan Harris, but as the sort of head of this Starfleet Academy thing.

383
00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:56.579
And they were going to sort of reboot it and bring in this young hero, and Jonathan Harris refused to share the screen with a young hero.

384
00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:01.019
So it was retooled, and the Jonathan Harris character was replaced by James Dewan.

385
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:02.099
Oh, God.

386
00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:04.559
Sounds shocking like that.

387
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:12.960
You know, it's it's like space 1999 and Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica made on half of Doctor Who's budget.

388
00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:17.460
Jason of Star Command. you'll find it in the notes. try and find it.

389
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.259
But back to what you're saying about ratings.

390
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:25.680
I think looking at the ratings for this whole season. saddest things is the fact that, you know, it is such a disaster.

391
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:32.700
Not one episode is inside the top 50 and up to this point, Tom has barely been outside the top 50 in terms of placings.

392
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.599
There's so many episodes like 145th, 170th.

393
00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:42.720
The show is on life support, you know, if the BBC wanted to end it now, they could have.

394
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:50.099
I think Tom going is actually a really good thing because it means that they've got another shot shot at things.

395
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:51.240
But we digress.

396
00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:56.460
Normally, you know, the ratings of a story reflect the reaction to the previous story.

397
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:02.460
You know, you it's not people switching off halfway. people deciding not to tune in because last week was so terrible.

398
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:11.519
I mean, is it because season 17 was sort of so exhausted that no one tuned in for the beginning of season 18?

399
00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:12.539
Well, I don't know.

400
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:23.759
I mean, I've talked about this before, how Doctor Who was pitching to different audiences, and I don't think, I think that the kids who were with the show in the early 70s are now teenagers, and they're going out on the town.

401
00:32:23.819 --> 00:32:25.440
It's 1980, it's a new decade.

402
00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:31.200
I don't think that the young ones over the last few years have been fostered to come into the show and keep on watching it.

403
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:51.539
And I think it's a combination of those things, that there's just, we've still got the diehard fans, but that, Next generation, there's just this, this, this point where the ones who are teenagers and the ones who are younger, the teenagers are moving on, they're not coming back to Doctor Who, and we haven't fostered the younger ones over the last few years.

404
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:53.880
I just think there's this horrible turning point.

405
00:32:53.940 --> 00:33:08.099
Yeah, that's an excellent point, because as much as lots of people are critical of various aspects of the new series, and both executives, the Russell era and the and the Stephen Moffatt era.

406
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:15.839
But both of them did a really good job of balancing the adult and the child elements in the audience.

407
00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:21.960
And as much as I love season 18, and season 17, for completely different reasons.

408
00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:29.099
I think you're right, Todd, in that there's not, there's not a great deal to bring in the younger audience in them.

409
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:37.200
It's very intelligent television, it's great for, say, teens and older, but is there anything there for the 8 year olds?

410
00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:46.740
I think too, this season we're going to see the seeds of the shows demise being sown.

411
00:33:46.740 --> 00:34:00.960
And here, like one of the things that finally ends the show is the idea that it's a cult science fiction program for dedicated fans and not something for the general family audience to watch at a Saturday tea time.

412
00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:04.200
Do you think having the Starfield effect sort of reinforces that?

413
00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:05.099
I think it does.

414
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:31.800
And I also think, and much as I love it, I love all of the scientific, you know, the fact that the doctor and Romana are scientists, that they're using sort of technical terminology about sort of unreal transfer and things that we don't understand and that we don't really need to know, there's a long scene in which I actually think some of Layla's best acting work is done and that's her and hard and yeah, and those are beautiful shots.

415
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:38.039
Oh, just wonderful, you know, those plastic frames in the foreground of the shot, those pyramid things.

416
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.119
It's just visually spectacular she's acting her socks off.

417
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:48.719
But the dialogue about what being a scientist is like, you know, pressures on scientists for funding, all of that stuff.

418
00:34:48.780 --> 00:34:51.960
The science stuff is huge this season.

419
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:52.980
Absolutely huge.

420
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:58.199
And that is a sort of nerd science fiction, niche interest, I think.

421
00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:03.719
But the fact is that the ratings are down to begin with. you know, before we even get to that point, you know?

422
00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:04.860
Yeah, yeah.

423
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:05.760
So is it last year?

424
00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:09.420
Is it people not tuning in because last year was a bit of a train wreck.

425
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:22.679
Perhaps, but I still think it's a reflection of the previous couple of years where, you know, the last couple of stories, the production, people are tuning into the episodes that have really ropey production values.

426
00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:26.340
So they're getting to see shaky corridors or big monsters that are bad to you.

427
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.460
So that's now getting engrained into people's...

428
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:30.900
Yeah, that's a bit of a joke.

429
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:31.559
That's right.

430
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:34.920
Audiences will come back for Warrior's Gate.

431
00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:38.099
That's when it picks up, but then it sort of drops off again.

432
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.079
I mean, it is a shame.

433
00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:54.539
It is a great shame because season 17 is clever and terrific fun and season 18 is smart and has this amazing thematic unity, looks spectacularly good.

434
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:57.000
Eventually, it gets quite witty.

435
00:35:57.059 --> 00:36:01.440
You know, the comedy is far more subtle than last series.

436
00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:09.659
But also it continues something Richard brought up last series, which is the idea of the individual against the conglomerate.

437
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:28.920
However, I think this season explores it in a very different way and comes to very different conclusions by the end of it, and Harden is representative of that, because Harden is a scientist who's falsifying his results in order to get more funding, but we also find out, and I think it's absolutely beautiful.

438
00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.639
He's falsifying his results to stay close to the woman he loves.

439
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:35.519
And, you know, it's never, it's never explicitly stated.

440
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:40.380
It's all in, it's all in the action described in the script in the performances.

441
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:47.039
But he and Adrian Corey, as Mina, play that relationship so beautifully.

442
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:52.860
And when the world's going to pieces and there's an army advancing on him, his 1st instinct is to go save the woman he loves.

443
00:36:52.980 --> 00:36:54.059
It's so beautiful.

444
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:55.260
It is really great.

445
00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:56.400
And it is weird.

446
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:58.800
Like I was going, are they on to get what's happening?

447
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:00.719
But her husband's just died.

448
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:01.980
That was her husband, wasn't it?

449
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:03.780
Yeah, an episode's having an affair with part.

450
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.880
Yeah, well, an intellectual.

451
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:11.579
But at the same time, you know, after he's dead, she kind of comes in and there's not much reaction from her.

452
00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:20.639
But she's a force of nature when she comes in and she actually, like, controls, she almost directs the story in the scenes that she's in.

453
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:26.760
The cameras all over her and she deteriorates gradually and that's reflected in the way she's shot as well.

454
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.099
Now, when this was first on.

455
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:36.360
Rod found and still finds their head globes dropping off as one of the scariest things in Doctor Who.

456
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:52.320
He said, it's like this tiny physical representation of death, except they don't die, they get back up again, but then they die again, and it's quite freaky, and you get the extreme closer, and, you know, that's to show the audience that one of their, one of their bits is dropping off.

457
00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:57.420
But at the same time, you know, it's it's this sudden crash close up and then back out again.

458
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:58.860
Like it's very, it's almost subliminal.

459
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:00.599
It's got great sound as well.

460
00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:03.119
Isn't there a sting, there's a little sting, isn't there?

461
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:03.840
Yeah, yeah.

462
00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:04.260
Yeah.

463
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:10.079
I really think that Lawrence Payne, who plays Morix in episode one, and his husband does a fantastic job.

464
00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:14.400
I think he is phenomenal and is often overlooked because she is so good.

465
00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:18.119
I personally don't like her performance to begin with.

466
00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:22.380
It's so cold and so stilted and I can understand why.

467
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:24.300
I mean, you know, her husband's dead.

468
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:25.079
She's got to take control.

469
00:38:25.139 --> 00:38:27.960
She's got to have that icy sort of exterior being in control.

470
00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:31.860
But as she thaws and gets weaker and also then goes up against her son.

471
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.340
Yeah.

472
00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:32.820
You know?

473
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.820
The performance just gets better and better throughout the story.

474
00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:39.539
I mean, she has to pitch it so there's a deterioration and a change.

475
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:50.280
And so, and that opening scene where, you know, she walks straight into the camera and then she's walking away from the camera and her backs to the camera and the camera stays there.

476
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:57.719
She's like, she's frozen the camera and she walks off in an instant and she's having to shout her dialogue from the end of the corridor at the end.

477
00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:01.019
She's she's she is a force of nature.

478
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.199
She's like terrifyingly competent in things.

479
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:05.880
And so sweet.

480
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:17.159
Like when the doctor gets aged in the generator and all she feels is sympathy for him and sympathy for hard and even as she's, you know, degenerating physically.

481
00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:19.679
She's so warm and so sweet.

482
00:39:19.739 --> 00:39:24.239
You know, it's one of the best performances in Doctor Whoever, I think.

483
00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:25.920
And how good is old Tom?

484
00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:26.880
Yes.

485
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.480
He fought against it.

486
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:32.219
Like when he got the script, he's like, no.

487
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:36.000
No, we're rewriting this and I'm changing I'm changing back after the Cliffhanger.

488
00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:43.500
And I think it was John Nathan Turner, whom he had a much better relationship with at this stage than he had with Graham Williams, who said to him, no, no, Tom.

489
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:52.559
No, we're not going to change you back until the last episode, but your reaction to that becomes the story and we show how resourceful the doctor is even in this condition.

490
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:56.639
And it gives you a chance to play a different side of the character.

491
00:39:56.699 --> 00:40:00.179
Oh, it gives him a chance to act, and he hasn't done that for so long.

492
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:00.900
Correct.

493
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:06.179
It is just, you know, it's just Tom being Tom and it has been for ages, but he's great.

494
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.599
Yeah, he'll do it next episode next story as well.

495
00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:11.099
He'll get to do some acting too.

496
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.940
Yeah, I think it's so wonderful, but he doesn't just care.

497
00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:18.239
You know, he doesn't turn it into a caricature.

498
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:21.900
He kind of goes, my brain hasn't aged.

499
00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:23.159
It's my body.

500
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:30.780
And it's, he just plays it so subtly different, but it's so effective and the makeup's amazing.

501
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:35.820
And I think that's, it's an effect of the new costume, which, sorry, Todd, I have to say I love.

502
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:44.519
But the effects in your costume, because it's so huge, when Tom's got all this aged makeup on is sort of stooped, he looks even smaller because of the big costume.

503
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.300
And then, of course, we have David Haig.

504
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:55.500
Yeah, so he goes on to be quite famous and does movies and all sorts of things as Pangol, and I think he is tremendous.

505
00:40:55.559 --> 00:41:00.960
He is great, and he's the bad boy of this story, and I remember that as a kid.

506
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:06.480
Like, you know, I kind of think he's a bit Colin Farrell-ish in his looks and that sort of thing.

507
00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:07.199
Yeah, yeah.

508
00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:18.659
Of course, you know, time, perhaps has not been so kind, please watch the documentaries, but his performance in this, I think, is amazing.

509
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:21.480
I just, you know, it really is incredible.

510
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:24.539
It's really interesting, I think, then at the end.

511
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:31.679
And I'm sort of jumping around here is that when Pangol actually gets turned back into a baby and Mina says, well, you know, this time I...

512
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:33.599
I must try and bring him up properly.

513
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:35.219
Is that nature?

514
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:36.239
Is it nurture?

515
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:37.199
Will he still come up?

516
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:38.880
Will he still come back to that same point?

517
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.440
will it be different?

518
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:42.119
It's such a funny line.

519
00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:45.900
Yeah, it's a that's maybe the best joke of the...

520
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.820
One of my favourite Pangal lines is just the reveal of who he is.

521
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:59.340
But it's instead of, you know, later on he says, I'm a child of the generator, but his reveal is, how old do you think I am, Mr. Brock?

522
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:00.300
It's wonderful.

523
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.059
And it's wonderfully delivered and a great shot.

524
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:04.619
And it's trusting the audience.

525
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:05.460
Yeah.

526
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:07.860
And that is something this season does really well.

527
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:09.780
Sometimes it's confusing.

528
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:15.179
I think I had to watch Warriors Gate 3 times before the 1st time I watched it before I got it.

529
00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:19.800
But yeah, it's trusting your audience to fill in, to fill in the gaps.

530
00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:26.400
We should have been asking ourselves, given that we knew that the war was 40 years ago, why Pangol was so young.

531
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.000
But you don't think about that.

532
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:34.679
No, the story is going on, you don't, it doesn't click to a certain point.

533
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:38.639
Suddenly you do realise you get that input and that sort of thing.

534
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:49.320
I think a big comedy fail in this story, though, is that at the end of episode through beginning of episode 4, when the Formasia unmasked, which is hilarious.

535
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:58.920
Nobody kind of, nobody kind of reacts with any sort of, not exactly disbelief, but surprise.

536
00:42:58.980 --> 00:43:04.559
The doctor just kind of goes, of course they're fomal seat, but nobody says, they're 3 times the signs.

537
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:07.199
Well, they've got those Slovene compression things.

538
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:14.039
I'm sure that Russell is to some degree actually Red Conninger in aliens of London.

539
00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:17.880
Look, I just thought they were just sucking in the fat. all do it.

540
00:43:17.940 --> 00:43:20.039
We all, yeah, I'm doing it now.

541
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:32.760
Well, the thing is, Russell does kind of steal something from the story that we mentioned a moment ago, which is, of course, Blonde Felfotch, Passimir Day Slavine, is regressed back to an egg.

542
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:38.940
Ah, she is too. and put in the hatchery to get a new start, just like hanging out. to get brought up properly this time.

543
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:55.920
I really like that scene and I like the fact that no remark is actually made about the, about the Fomasi sort of squashing into the, I mean, we didn't complain that Julian Glover had a big tentacle head that was much bigger than Julian Glover's own head.

544
00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:59.219
You know, like, presumably he had to squash into that mask as well.

545
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:15.659
But there's something so sort of stylised about it, and that particular scene with all of its quick cutting and extreme close-ups and comedy reaction shots is really, really amazing looking and something that a show hadn't done before.

546
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:34.320
Phil Sandafar does one of his rare video blogs where he compares the direction of some scenes from last year's creature from the pier, which is a David Fisher script, with scenes, including that scene from the leisure hive, and talks about how just the show's whole visual language has changed.

547
00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:37.079
And so I'll put a reference to that in the show notes.

548
00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:39.059
George Sandra has an amazing beard.

549
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:40.079
He does.

550
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:40.739
He really does.

551
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:42.239
Going back to the direction.

552
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:49.019
There are so many wonderful little moments, and I really like the way in which Brock and...

553
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:57.719
So who is it clout his offsider who gets no lines at all, but he gets the close-up shots and all the establishing shots.

554
00:44:57.780 --> 00:44:58.440
It's really interesting.

555
00:44:58.500 --> 00:44:59.820
I keep expecting him to talk.

556
00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:03.599
And then there's, who's the other one that gets killed off for...

557
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:04.199
Stimson.

558
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:05.579
Oh, Stimson, sorry. as well.

559
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:11.159
And, you know, I forgot about those 2 characters, but the way in which they're brought into the action.

560
00:45:11.219 --> 00:45:19.079
I just think is so clever and interesting and, you know, ultimately, you know, they're good and evil and going to be killed off.

561
00:45:19.139 --> 00:45:31.500
The thing I like about cloud is that we see the 1st indication that that's a disguise that Brocken cloud aren't real people is that Stimson finds the clout suit in the wardrobe.

562
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:32.639
And it actually looks really good.

563
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:34.320
Well, the thing is, because it's a low list.

564
00:45:34.380 --> 00:45:38.219
It's very funny, but the actor never opens his mouth.

565
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:39.780
Not only does he never say anything.

566
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:44.219
He never opens his mouth and his facial expression matches that mask.

567
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:49.079
So he's acting so that he looks like the rubber mask in the wardrobe.

568
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:50.280
That's terrific.

569
00:45:50.519 --> 00:46:03.239
I do think that this story and the design and the directorial touch is actually informs Babylon 5 because Joe Michael Strazinski, your career Babylon 5 has gone on record as saying Doctor Who was an influence.

570
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:12.539
The Argolan crystal technology looks a lot like the Minbari technology, and even some of the shots, such as Simpson finding the skin suit.

571
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:25.079
It's actually almost matched with a shot from the Babylon 5 pilot where they find someone drowned in essentially a fish tank and they're on the left side of the screen and the security officers are looking at them.

572
00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:29.820
I'll see if I can get a screen grab to put up so we can compare them.

573
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:40.559
Is the idea that the leisure hive is this facility which is designed for alien species to meet and develop sympathy for each other by experiencing what it's like to be?

574
00:46:40.619 --> 00:46:41.159
Yeah.

575
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:44.880
You know, and that's, that's certainly, that's certainly not that I know anything.

576
00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:46.139
Nothing at all about Babylon 5.

577
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.480
And in fact, I've never heard of it before you just...

578
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:54.780
I mean, you know, you can also argue the cursive paladin, so...

579
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.300
I'm going to criticise a few aspects of the story.

580
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:01.139
Okay, I'm going to preemptively tell you that all of these things are going to be wrong.

581
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:08.760
I think Amina gets ill too quickly and it's very convenient that her husband dies and then she starts to die straight away.

582
00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.179
I think I think the ending is extremely rushed.

583
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:13.800
It's sort of like, if that's it, goodbye.

584
00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:29.940
I do not like the scene, although I like the joke about then arrest the scarf, but when the doctor is looking over the controls of the generator and then everybody else is like only like 2 metres away looking at the body with the scarf, like it's very staged and it doesn't really work.

585
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:32.099
I understand what they were going for, but it doesn't really work.

586
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:43.019
All the Pangol masks for the generator should have been like people of the same height and size and they're not and it's just like, okay.

587
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:44.639
It's Doctor Who.

588
00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:46.380
There do seem to be a lot of them.

589
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:52.679
I mean, I know they're just sort of circling around behind the camera and coming back in front of her, but they do seem to be quite a large number of them.

590
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:55.320
But the way you can tell, because usually, you know, when they do that sort of thing.

591
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:57.059
There a gap, but they manage not to have a gap.

592
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:03.420
One of them has his helmet on about 20 degrees off kilter. every time that guy.

593
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:04.980
Walkie-Heller guy.

594
00:48:05.699 --> 00:48:07.139
I think it's Stuart Fell, because he's very short.

595
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:11.639
I don't particularly like Romana's costume.

596
00:48:11.699 --> 00:48:15.960
I think it makes it look like she's got chicken legs, the bottom half of the costume.

597
00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:18.480
So I've got a minor's marks for that on this.

598
00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:20.159
I'm really stretching here, people.

599
00:48:20.219 --> 00:48:22.199
It's great to see female attendance.

600
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:25.800
That's the other thing that I liked. to be with Mina and that sort of thing.

601
00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:27.480
I really thought, okay, they've thought about that.

602
00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:28.380
That's positive.

603
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:35.039
Obviously, the Marsi costume just doesn't work, but Lovett is trying to shoot it in such a way to minimise it.

604
00:48:35.099 --> 00:48:41.099
When they're 1st introduced and you just get, you know, close-ups of an eye or close-up of the hands or just the shadow against the wall.

605
00:48:41.219 --> 00:48:42.599
Like that's quite effective.

606
00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:46.980
And, you know, I think it is telling that the costume is kind of ropey.

607
00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:52.440
And not all of the effects come off at all, you know, but it still just looks visually great.

608
00:48:52.500 --> 00:49:01.980
Like the way the head of the Fomasi move and their little budgy beak and budgy language is great and something we haven't seen before.

609
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:02.820
But yeah, I agree.

610
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:03.719
It doesn't really work.

611
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:10.860
The model shots you were saying, how they come in really slow on the hive, and it's sort of, they're really trying, but they still, you still, I still sit there going.

612
00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:13.019
Yeah, it's a model.

613
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:13.920
It's a terrible model.

614
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:20.940
It's not much better than the Naimon power complex was in the previous story, but it is so well directed that I don't care.

615
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:28.619
You get the matching with the music and also the studio sets built to match the model of such a good match.

616
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.940
Yeah, you know, you get that shot with the window we talked about earlier, for instance.

617
00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:41.940
My big problem with the Fomasi, and I think it's a hangover, because when they were 1st playing the Fomasi, of course, there were going to be, you know, fat blokes in business suits.

618
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:49.980
And then JNT's like lose the suit, but they never quite lost the fact that, you know, they look like Rover from the prisoner painted green with a head on it.

619
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:56.460
And it's kind of like, well, yeah, if you had have made them a bit more slender, they might have looked a bit less ridiculous.

620
00:49:56.519 --> 00:50:10.619
But at the same time, looking ridiculous, kind of helps, because they're not evil, and they're not aggressive invaders, and you get that wonderful bit at the end, which the line isn't funny in itself, but just the delivery and the fact that it's coming from this roly poly formasi.

621
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.420
You're mentioned for Marcy.

622
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:21.480
I like I like when he's pointing at the other naughty FOMA. with his finger and says, you're going to stand trial.

623
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.480
That does remind me.

624
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:32.219
It is rather convenient that they managed to get out of their web thing on the ship and so it's the evil ones that can blown up, that's a bit of a, you know.

625
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:40.860
Well, the thing is, because there's no emotion in his translator unit, you know, he says something like, um, they managed to get away and overpower us.

626
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:46.500
It's like, yeah, we kind of thought the ship might have been blown up, so we let them go, you know, it's less paperwork.

627
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.380
I want to talk about the visual effects.

628
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:51.059
They use the Quantel.

629
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:52.380
Is that image?

630
00:50:52.440 --> 00:51:04.619
which I think it's great that in this season that they're really trying to use new technologies. something I think that, you know, Barry Letts pioneered back in the early 70s, um, to varying degrees of success.

631
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:09.840
And I think it's important that a show like Doctor Who, if they didn't use these things, we wouldn't be where we are today.

632
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:18.000
The commentaries or the documentaries talk about the fact that it takes all of 2 days to film these things.

633
00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:20.519
Now you could do it like, you know, in an hour or whatever.

634
00:51:20.579 --> 00:51:22.139
On your smartphone.

635
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:22.860
Correct.

636
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:26.880
But I think the squash playing is absolutely pathetic.

637
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:33.780
And with the Dr. Romana going across the screen, it just reminded me that hideous lift back in underworld that just never worked.

638
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:36.059
It's a terrible shot.

639
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:41.639
I think everyone's arms and legs being pulled off looks stupid, you know, your old Billy Loman.

640
00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:45.059
Is it a Billy Loman who gets who gets cut up?

641
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:51.900
And there's one scene too, when the Fomasia are burning their way into the um, into the corridor.

642
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.599
There's one thing which is a video still for a start.

643
00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:57.179
It's not like, it's not like a shot.

644
00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:58.500
It's a video still.

645
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:02.579
And a green circle is forming to show where they're burning into create a hole.

646
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:06.300
But you can actually see someone pulling a piece of paper off.

647
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:11.460
Uh, you know, and that's how the uh, that's how the circle is closed.

648
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.039
If you look at it, you can't unsee it. you watch it.

649
00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:16.860
I've got to pulling a piece of paper off the thing.

650
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:20.579
So there are terrible terrible effects all the way through.

651
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:23.219
There's a there's that wonderful quantal effect.

652
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:32.039
They use sort of when they're zooming out of Brighton Beach to our goalus and on the commentary, love at Bigfoot says, you know, this is what we were trying to do was this, but we couldn't.

653
00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:43.019
And what it's meant to be is you're meant to zoom up and you're meant to see Brighton, and then the British coastline and then the British Isles, and then Europe, and then the Earth, and then keep zooming out.

654
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:44.639
That's what it was meant to be.

655
00:52:44.699 --> 00:53:01.019
And so I think it's very, it's wonderful that, you know, 11 years ago now, the very 1st shot of Rose, we finally got that shot, you know, going, going down through space through the planet down to, down to England.

656
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:04.679
That's the shot that the opening credits come back in.

657
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:05.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

658
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:09.659
And then, and then you get the sunburst, which is meant to be going past Argolus's sun.

659
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:16.800
And then to our But it's like, well, we don't have the budget for a planet model and we can't, we don't have Google Earth, whatever that might be.

660
00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:18.420
So we can't quite do that.

661
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:25.559
But it's still, instead of them becoming a very impressive literal special effect.

662
00:53:25.619 --> 00:53:34.500
It's this wonderful representative thing which scared me as a kid, you know, the doctor, Dr. Romana going into space like this.

663
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:42.360
Didn't scare me in the same way as Romana falling off the cliff in Stones of Blood, which I mentioned, was one of my most terrifying Doctor Who moments.

664
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:47.760
But to be honest, I didn't mention this earlier with the theme, but this theme scared me as a kid.

665
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:51.719
People report that the original theme used to scare them, you know.

666
00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:57.599
As a kid, the heart law theme scared me a little because it was so sparse, but this one really terrified me.

667
00:53:57.659 --> 00:53:59.639
It really blasts that at you.

668
00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:01.500
I just love the way it starts.

669
00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:04.559
Yeah, that's new, isn't it?

670
00:54:04.619 --> 00:54:06.420
Like starting with a sting.

671
00:54:06.539 --> 00:54:12.539
Like we talked about the introduction of the sting back in ambassadors of death or something like that when it 1st occurs.

672
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:17.159
But this is where the where it starts with a sting and that's something that doesn't go away either.

673
00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:18.300
That's uh...

674
00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:19.199
Yeah, yeah, we still got that.

675
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:22.260
I love the performance of Harriet Reynolds in this story.

676
00:54:23.099 --> 00:54:25.320
Who is that you may ask?

677
00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:25.800
Yes.

678
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:28.380
The voice of the tannery.

679
00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:30.480
Oh, she's wonderful, isn't she?

680
00:54:30.539 --> 00:54:36.360
I think the female turnover voice actually occurs a number of times during the whole John Nathan Turner era.

681
00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:42.300
It's not necessarily her, but it's something that instantly I just kind of go, this is 1980, John Nathan Turner.

682
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.880
Give it a Welsh accent and it's the RTD era.

683
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:50.400
You know, there's how heaps of female Tanoy voices in RTDs, Doctor Who.

684
00:54:50.460 --> 00:54:51.420
Sun filter?

685
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:52.139
Descending.

686
00:54:52.199 --> 00:55:02.340
Yes, I was thinking about that, you know, the quarantine thing about Earth being quarantined, which is about by a Welsh computer in Last of the Time Lords.

687
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:03.179
Is that what that's called?

688
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:04.559
Yeah.

689
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:13.619
So as you're saying, like, you know, this isn't perfect, but the intent is there and it looks generally, you know, wonderful spectacular.

690
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:17.400
You know, for me, I just go back to my figures and numbers.

691
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.739
You know, I give this personally, like a solid 8 out of 10.

692
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:21.059
Like, I enjoyed it.

693
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:22.980
I think it's a solid and it's a good step.

694
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:24.119
Yeah.

695
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:31.440
I just think the visual thing is so striking and so wonderful that this is one of my all-time favourites.

696
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.039
Yeah.

697
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:37.980
I'd go as far to say that if by the end of watching this, you haven't got a big smile on your face.

698
00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:39.840
It's not Christopher H.

699
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:41.159
Bidmead who's gotten rid of the phone.

700
00:55:41.219 --> 00:55:41.579
It you.

701
00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:01.920
Well, it's time to repair K9 as we leave Angolus.

702
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:06.000
We'll be back next week for the doppelganger story Megloss.

703
00:56:06.059 --> 00:56:13.019
In the meantime, please find us online at flightsthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

704
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:16.860
Feel free to retweet, share, or review us.

705
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:28.079
Don't forget about bond finger over at bondfinger.com, where we now have the 1st 7 James Bond films recorded as commentaries and also the unofficial film Casino Royale.

706
00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:33.719
You can also find that at Bondfinger Cast on Twitter and Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes.

707
00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:38.579
Until then, may none of your age or regressing machines actually be video fakery.

708
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:39.780
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

709
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:40.500
Good night.

710
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:41.340
See you soon.

711
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:52.260
That was Flight to Entirety with Todd B, Nathan Bottomley, and Brendan Jones.

712
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:54.420
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

713
00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:59.940
This episode, Giant Squashy Bottoms, was recorded on the 20th of February, 2016.

714
00:57:00.179 --> 00:57:02.760
The next episode will be released on April 10th.

715
00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:08.099
We dedicate this episode to the memory of Adrian Corey who played Mina in the leisure hive.

716
00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:18.000
It's the Peter Howell scores that always sound the best, just because it's so seamless.

717
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:20.280
How much does he do?

718
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:22.440
I know it's him and Patty Kingsland this year.

719
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.199
Yeah, it's him and Patty Kingsland.

720
00:57:25.260 --> 00:57:30.719
So he does, he does the leisure hive, the big ones, he does the 5 doctors.

721
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.840
Yeah, we should look it up.

722
00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:35.219
Yeah, I'm gonna pause and look that up.