WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:09:50

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast with perfectly adequate Seawater

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Defences.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm Todd Hamilton Dead Meet.

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Oh, I mean Todd Andrew Bealby.

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What am I thinking?

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I think we'll be asking that question a lot over the next few

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weeks.

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We are back after taking a month off.

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And we're heading down to Brighton Beach for the leisure hive.

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This is actually the second time, a new incoming producer has had

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the doctor try to get to Brighton Beach for the opening of the

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pavilion.

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The Great Williams era starts with the doctor ending up on Fang

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Rock after trying to get to Brighton Beach.

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So it becomes a bit of a tradition.

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I was a little bit disappointed that Paul McGand didn't start on

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Brighton Beach or Christopher Nicholson, but so it's not a pattern

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but it is he's a bit of a callback, I think.

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This is mine and I actually begged to get this one.

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This is my massacre, as it were.

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Yes, yes.

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And the reason is not, I think, because it's my favourite story

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but it is up there, but because it really represents like a

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massive kind of watershed, I think, in the history of Doctor Who.

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We've been on a bit of an upward trajectory, then things have gone

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a little bit a little bit pear shaped during the Williams era

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although...

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Yeah, yeah, we came to the conclusion, certainly, that we enjoyed

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the Williams era, but at the same time, we weren't blind to its

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faults, and especially to, shall we say, the puzzling creative

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choices they're in.

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Yeah, that was it.

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They were production problems, weren't there?

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And they were really evident on the screen in what went to a

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hand.

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Yeah, yeah, I mean, more times than not, like over the last 3

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years.

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The production values. haven't always been what we would hope them

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to be because of inflation and here we are, 1980.

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And uh, It's all change.

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In fact, I don't think I go back to my childhood experiences of

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watching Doctor Who very much, but I actually remember this coming

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on, and thinking that it must have been a show about Doctor Who

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rather than actual Doctor Who, because I think my only experience

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and I may be remembering it wrong, was of the Bernard Lodge slit

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scan title sequence.

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That was the only thing. you know, suddenly there's this new music

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there's this Starfield, and I thought, oh, you know, maybe it's a

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promo for Doctor Who.

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I knew there was a new season starting, but we didn't have the

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internet back then and our televisions were driven by steam and

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that kind of thing.

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So I had no idea to expect anything different.

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I didn't know about producers or anything like that.

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Did we have any repeats going into this?

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Did we have season 17 and then this just started or was it

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announced in like the TV week magazine that it was a new series?

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Can you remember?

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I think they held it back.

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It is actually possible to look up these air dates and things, and

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I've done that in the past.

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I've, you know, went back and found out what day I must have 1st

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watched Doctor Who on.

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So those repeats are available on the internet.

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My memory is that they held season 18 back because they wanted to

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go more or less straight into season 19 in order to ease the

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transition.

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So, my memory is that we waited a long time before they showed

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this season and that it went pretty much straight into the 1st

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Davison season.

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It's interesting.

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I have a similar sort of experience like you.

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Like, I knew this was new.

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I knew it was going to be new, but I was expecting those

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traditional title sequences.

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And then, The Starfield thing just burst onto the screen.

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And to this day, I can still remember going, what the hell is

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this?

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Then my brain went, oh my goodness, it's Doctor Who, they cannot

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change their opening credits.

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Oh, no, Tom Baker is going to leave the show.

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These things literally went in my mind, boom, boom, boom, boom

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boom.

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So I didn't really process the opening credits very much, because

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I was, like, devastated that they changed it.

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And I didn't know Tom was going to leave, but that went through my

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head because my only other experience was the fact that during the

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repeats, I worked out that John's last sequence of stories, they

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changed his in credits.

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And so it was like, 0 my goodness, Tom is going to leave and I was

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just like, you know, mortified.

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Of course, you know, several stories later, I'd forgotten about

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the whole thing.

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But all of that was going through my mind, so I didn't really take

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into opening credits until episode two.

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So do we know this 1st season, and this is going to be a theme of

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our next few episodes, I think.

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This 1st season looks amazing.

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It doesn't look vastly more expensive.

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There are still, you know, plenty of ropey effects, even in this

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story.

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There are things that look cheap or don't quite work.

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But there's... a real flair to the design and a real concern about

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making the show look better. like an awareness that it had looked

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tired.

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But I think that might come from John Nathan Turner.

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And what he wants to do with the show and getting different people

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into design, different directors.

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There's an energy there, and I think having a different script

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editor, again, been on the same page, maybe having Barry Letts

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around as executive producer initially to try and bring things

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into the 80s.

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You know, maybe it's just a culmination of all those factors that

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they're really trying to to take things in a different direction.

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Yeah, Barry Letts was on record as not having liked the more

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comedic direction the show had gone.

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And actually, I use comedic in sort of, as much as I hate to say

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it, air quotes there, because really, it's not like the Williams

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era is a comedy.

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It just has moments of comedy in it.

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So yeah, Barry Letts was certainly a big influence.

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I think visually something I've noticed in season 18 compared to

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season 17 is... sort of layering in the sets.

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There's different levels.

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So, you know, you look at it as a flat image and something we

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discussed with Nightmare of Eden, for instance, was that the

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corridors were all flats.

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There was no relief into the walls, like nothing was pressed in.

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Whereas, you know, in leisure hive, we get all these shots and you

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have something in the foreground, then you have the actors, then

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you have the background.

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And you see that in other stories as well, full circle, which

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we'll discuss in a few weeks.

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There's corridors leading off in different directions, you know

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there's one going upstage and one going sideways and that sort of

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thing.

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So I think that immediately makes it feel like a more real place.

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Like, we're sitting in mine and Rod's flat at the moment.

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And, you know, the table over there is not pushed up against the

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wall.

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It's in the middle of the room and you have to, you have to walk

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around it.

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The sofa here is not pushed up against the wall either.

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So, it's a real space, things aren't just 3 walls in a prosenium

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arch.

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And I think that's something the series does so well, and

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especially the leisure height, but that did lead to problems, as

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we'll discuss.

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So the leisure heights directed by loved Bigford, who never comes

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back to direct again.

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He does a massive overspend and can't be invited back.

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And he does, I think, you know, the best job of directing a Doctor

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Who serial to date.

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And I think this is one of the most visually striking Doctor Who

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serials ever.

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I don't think the show ever gets quite as good looking as this

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again.

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I think maybe Graham Harper later on.

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But goodness, this looks great.

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And what he's done is, instead of the usual studio thing of having

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three cameras, which you can't, between live, he's directing its

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single camera, the way that they direct it now, and that's

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obviously slower, and more expensive.

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But it really shows on screen.

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And what he successfully does is exactly what you identified

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Brendan, is he creates a real sense of space.

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So, the leisure hive corridors are not hugely lavish, but they

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have ceilings, the sound design is done in such a way that you can

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hear the voices echoing off the walls.

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It doesn't just fall into a dead studio set, and there are things

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in the foreground.

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There's shots with a really sort of narrow depth of fields, so

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there are things out of focus in the background, so our eyes are

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drawn into particular places.

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There are beautifully composed shots.

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Like my notes are just, 0 my god, now there's this shot.

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And like one of them is the doctor Romana and Mina discussing the

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war and the 3 of them are the shot side on, the 3 of the faces are

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all sort of visible, the, you know, one behind the other, and the

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light from outside, which is the result of the devastation of the

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war is playing on their faces.

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And it's just beautifully framed and composed.

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Another shot where we're outside the hive.

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And the camera comes in through the window into the boardroom.

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You know, like the model is not great, but the camera moves slowly

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as the model's in shot and we move up on it.

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The music, like the music is just unbelievably spectacularly

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good.

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You talk about the music Dudley Simpson is no longer gone.

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And I don't think he could have ever fit into this season with all

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of his woodwinds in that.

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It has to be this straight away, this electronic 1980s music that

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I don't know, it just has this impact.

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I even get shivers now, just thinking about it, like this whole

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season.

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It just has this feel and this texture that adds this where

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suddenly in 1980.

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And Peter Howell is so, so clever.

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On the DVD, there's a documentary where Peter Howe talks about his

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incidental music and also how he came up with the theme.

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And the fact that the theme includes a vocoda, to try and get an

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organic sound into this technological music.

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And also he talks about how holsts the planets influenced the

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music of the leisure hive, especially when you get Pangol's March

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at the end. brilliant piece of music.

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So over the next 9 years, we're going to get a lot of electronic

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music in Doctor Who, almost exclusively electronic music.

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I think Marquez brings in an acoustic guitar at one point much

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later.

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And it's all going to be to varying, varying success levels, but I

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think for the next 5 series, while we have the Peter Howell theme

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it's the Peter Howell scores that always sound the best, just

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because it's so seamless.

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How much does he do?

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I know it's him and Patty Kingsland this year.

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Yeah, it's him and Patty Kingsland.

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So he does, he does the leisure hive.

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Of course, he started off on Revenge of the Cybermen.

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Oh, really?

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Enhancing Kerry Blyton's score.

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I think we said at the time.

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Yeah.

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Meglos, Warrior's Gate.

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Kinder, Snake Dance, the King's Demons, the 5 Doctors, the

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Awakening, Planet of Fire, and the 2 Doctors.

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So he does like 2 or 3 stories a year for the next 5 years.

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I've just listened to Sylvan Nemesis.

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I listened to, watched it.

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And its music is just horrifically bad.

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And that's Kev McCulloch, who will also go on to arrange the

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theme.

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And so the electronic music doesn't have to be good.

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I mean, it can be terrible.

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Yeah, yeah.

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This year.

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All this year, the music is spectacularly great.

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And here in particular, because you've got these establishing

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shots or the shots of the earth shuttle arriving, where it's all

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just told by the music in this sort of fabulously operatic way

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these little interludes, musical interludes between parts of the

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story.

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That's exactly, yeah, that's exactly what it feels like.

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You just get the impression that everyone working on this.

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And some people have read this as, you know, they hated what had

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come before, so they wanted to change everything, and I don't

249
00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:48.899
think it's that.

250
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.360
I think it's that the people coming in.

251
00:12:51.419 --> 00:12:56.460
John Nathan Turner, Barry Letts, Christopher Bidmead, Peter Howell

252
00:12:56.460 --> 00:13:00.600
all had a love for the show, and wanted to do the best they could

253
00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:01.080
buy it.

254
00:13:01.620 --> 00:13:06.840
So, I mean, when people say, oh, you know, they get rid of the

255
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:07.320
humour.

256
00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:09.360
The thing is, they really don't.

257
00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:10.440
There are still jokes in this.

258
00:13:10.500 --> 00:13:15.720
But if you actually watch the making of, their meat in cell says

259
00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:17.580
we rip too much of the humour out of this one.

260
00:13:17.639 --> 00:13:19.139
There wasn't the right balance.

261
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.980
It was too serious.

262
00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:22.860
And I think you have a couple of humourous moments, but it's sort

263
00:13:22.860 --> 00:13:27.000
of like, where is the humour I feel in this story at times when I

264
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:27.600
think it needs it.

265
00:13:27.659 --> 00:13:31.379
I mean, there's that wonderful joke about, well, arrest the scar

266
00:13:31.379 --> 00:13:32.220
that Tom says.

267
00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:35.100
I mean, that I just burst out laughing, but it's sort of like, I

268
00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:35.879
need a bit more in this.

269
00:13:36.059 --> 00:13:38.100
And they do address that.

270
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:39.899
I think they then swing it back and buy full circle.

271
00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:42.360
Bid Means worked out how to sort of keep the humour and that sort

272
00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:42.600
of thing.

273
00:13:42.659 --> 00:13:46.500
Yeah, there's one really strange scene where the doctor renders a

274
00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:53.039
guide unconscious by exposing him to chalk equations on on the

275
00:13:53.039 --> 00:13:57.659
TARDIS. the guides overcome and his faint.

276
00:13:57.720 --> 00:13:58.860
That is a bit weird, yeah.

277
00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.200
It's a David Fisher script, and those scripts are always

278
00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.919
hilariously funny, and this one doesn't really have that much

279
00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:05.879
humour in it at all.

280
00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:06.840
No.

281
00:14:06.899 --> 00:14:10.860
And I think one of the best comebacks I've heard against Bid Meads

282
00:14:10.860 --> 00:14:13.139
approach, and I'm quite a fan of Bid Meads work.

283
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:18.779
But on the commentary for this, when canine gets blown up in the

284
00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:19.379
1st episode.

285
00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:21.419
Chris Bid Means starts talking.

286
00:14:21.539 --> 00:14:24.779
Sorry, Christopher Hamilton bit me. starts, if you're listening.

287
00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:28.919
So I was talking about how they wanted to get rid of magical

288
00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.980
objects like Kano, you know, things could get you out in a single

289
00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:36.960
band, and la, la, with all this wonderful restrained venom, says

290
00:14:36.960 --> 00:14:39.419
well, the TARDIS is magical, Chris.

291
00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:41.879
Why not just get rid of the TARDIS?

292
00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:47.460
You know, you kind of do appreciate her point.

293
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:50.399
And being a David Fisher's group.

294
00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:51.899
This started out in a very different place.

295
00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:55.440
As, you know, it was going to be more comedic.

296
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:57.360
It was going to be more of a, it was going to be a send up of the

297
00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:57.840
mafia.

298
00:14:57.899 --> 00:15:01.679
Yeah, so Marsi is an anagram of mafiosi famously.

299
00:15:01.740 --> 00:15:05.639
It's not really about their giant squashy bottoms at all.

300
00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:09.240
I just thought that would be something Richard would say.

301
00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:13.379
And it was originally going to be called the Fomasi, I think.

302
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:14.279
Yes, that's right.

303
00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:14.940
At some point.

304
00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:19.019
The Westlodger are giving the argument an offer they can't

305
00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:19.259
refuse.

306
00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.379
Can we talk about Christopher Bidmead?

307
00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:25.620
I do want to spend another 20 minutes just talking about how

308
00:15:25.620 --> 00:15:27.299
fabulously directed this is.

309
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:31.500
Oh, before we do bidmead, can I just say that earth shuttle

310
00:15:31.500 --> 00:15:35.879
arriving, I think on the commentary, Bidmead and maybe Lala

311
00:15:35.879 --> 00:15:39.600
complain about the earth shuttle arriving sequences because they

312
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:41.039
don't really look like anything.

313
00:15:41.100 --> 00:15:44.940
It's something like descending into a hole and they might say

314
00:15:44.940 --> 00:15:45.179
that.

315
00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:46.200
I would agree with them.

316
00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:48.419
I find them after a while.

317
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.779
I kind of go, oh, not another not another Earth shuttle arriving

318
00:15:51.779 --> 00:15:52.440
sequence.

319
00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:56.759
But it could have been like a crappy spaceship dangling on some

320
00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:57.480
fishing wire.

321
00:15:57.539 --> 00:15:58.740
Yes, it could have.

322
00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:02.399
Yes, yes, it's very stylised and, you know, yeah.

323
00:16:02.460 --> 00:16:05.220
And it's those musical interludes as well because it's always

324
00:16:05.220 --> 00:16:10.320
accompanied by Peter Howe just going crazy over the soundtrack.

325
00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:13.259
And so that's really wonderful and it sort of punctuates the

326
00:16:13.259 --> 00:16:13.500
action.

327
00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:14.519
So I do quite like that.

328
00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:19.320
Were Rod and I the only ones to sort of get a double entendre out

329
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:19.860
of those scenes?

330
00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:21.419
Yeah, sort of thing.

331
00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:23.639
Yeah Okay, fair enough.

332
00:16:23.700 --> 00:16:25.620
Can we talk bit, mate?

333
00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:31.860
I really, really like Bidme as group editor here, even though he

334
00:16:31.860 --> 00:16:37.320
rips out all the jokes, but I do think he's a terrible critic, and

335
00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.940
anything that he says about his time on the show tends to be

336
00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:42.360
wrong.

337
00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:46.500
His interview in DWM about the new series just made him look like

338
00:16:46.500 --> 00:16:50.580
a fool, you know, like he's the one who said, oh, you know, the

339
00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:53.639
Sonic Screwdriver is terrible in the new series because it's

340
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:57.779
magical and it can get the doctor out of anything, and everyone

341
00:16:57.779 --> 00:17:01.200
knows that Doctor Who fans enjoy episode 3 where the doctor's

342
00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.440
locked up, you know, and can't get out because that's terribly

343
00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:04.980
interesting.

344
00:17:05.460 --> 00:17:07.500
No, it's not.

345
00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:11.640
It enables us to have long scenes of the doctor unable to deal

346
00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:14.279
with walls and locks and things, which are really super

347
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:15.059
entertaining.

348
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:16.740
Please see snake dance.

349
00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:17.819
Yeah, yes, yes.

350
00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.039
That's right I've just watched Black Orchid.

351
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:24.779
So, you know, that sort of thing is stupid.

352
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:29.039
And like he thinks that the soap opera stuff in the new series

353
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.880
isn't great, even though that's precisely what he introduces in

354
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.319
his own series.

355
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:39.599
He says he's getting rid of the magic, but season 18 is full of

356
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:40.140
magic.

357
00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.619
You know, there's lots of talk about science and stuff, but it's

358
00:17:43.619 --> 00:17:44.400
full of magic.

359
00:17:44.460 --> 00:17:46.259
See, Warrior's Gate.

360
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:47.579
See, Legopolis.

361
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:48.059
Yeah.

362
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:52.200
It's really interesting that a lot of the DVDs have got makings of

363
00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.759
and he's obviously interviewed.

364
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:59.640
And Hearing what he has to say about how the story is developed is

365
00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:00.960
really intriguing.

366
00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:02.400
I'm not gonna sort of spoil it.

367
00:18:02.460 --> 00:18:06.900
But it's also very interesting to see his take, and the writers

368
00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.200
take, and some writers who he obviously gets on with, and others

369
00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:11.039
that he doesn't.

370
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:16.680
For example, in this one, he mentions that, oh, David Fisher will

371
00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.819
probably try and claim credit for the tachyonics being

372
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:21.420
introduced.

373
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:25.740
You cut to David Fisher saying, well, no, is really interested in

374
00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:29.220
that and I, you know, put that into the script. sort of they

375
00:18:29.220 --> 00:18:30.180
contradict each other.

376
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:34.380
Maybe that's why David never came back to the program again, which

377
00:18:34.380 --> 00:18:38.579
is a shame, really, because I think he's delivered 4.5 really

378
00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:40.440
wonderful scripts, you know, for the show.

379
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:43.980
And I think it's a shame that he, after this, he is no mortal.

380
00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:48.299
I think Bidmead, in a way, is a lot like George Lucas.

381
00:18:48.420 --> 00:18:54.299
In that, you know, George Lucas created Star Wars and gave us the

382
00:18:54.299 --> 00:18:56.759
three really great first films.

383
00:18:57.660 --> 00:19:02.460
And he was the right person for those films at the time.

384
00:19:02.579 --> 00:19:06.539
You know, flash forward 30 years, we start getting the prequels

385
00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:08.220
for Star Wars.

386
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:12.480
And, you know, they're not all terrible, but they don't live up

387
00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:13.259
to...

388
00:19:13.259 --> 00:19:15.900
They don't live up to the first three.

389
00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:19.019
And it's kind of like, you know, George Lucas still has very good

390
00:19:19.019 --> 00:19:22.559
ideas, but he's not the person to make these films now.

391
00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:27.779
Bidmead's ideas for Doctor Who were revolutionary in 1980.

392
00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.799
And even, you know, in 1984, when he turns in the script for

393
00:19:31.799 --> 00:19:32.519
Frontios.

394
00:19:32.579 --> 00:19:35.579
And then in 1986, where he turns in The Hollows of Time, which has

395
00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:37.140
since been made by Big Finish.

396
00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:41.759
You know, he's still coming up with great ideas for classic Doctor

397
00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:42.059
Who.

398
00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:42.539
Yeah.

399
00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:47.819
He's not the right person for Doctor Who now.

400
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:48.539
Yeah.

401
00:19:48.599 --> 00:19:51.839
And I say that with the greatest of love, because saying that

402
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:56.160
doesn't invalidate what was done at the time, you know, you could

403
00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.759
say H.G. Wells wouldn't be able to write a good Doctor Who script

404
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.180
if he was still alive today, writing in the same way he did then.

405
00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.000
Bob Baker and Dave Martin wouldn't be able to write it a good

406
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:06.720
Doctor Who story.

407
00:20:06.779 --> 00:20:08.220
Ever they, ever?

408
00:20:09.359 --> 00:20:10.980
Sorry.

409
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:13.920
Oh dear.

410
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:16.380
Can I say a few words about K9?

411
00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:17.400
Yeah, go on.

412
00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:18.180
4 K9.

413
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:19.859
So John Leeson's back.

414
00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:22.859
I think David Breeley actually didn't want to do it anymore.

415
00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:24.900
You know, he kind of went, oh, you know, I've done it for you.

416
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:28.980
And JNT said, look, John Leason, do you want to come back?

417
00:20:29.039 --> 00:20:31.259
And John's like, well, no, I am starting to get other work.

418
00:20:31.259 --> 00:20:32.039
And I da da.

419
00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:33.240
And he said, we're going to kill the dog.

420
00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:33.539
Right.

421
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:35.039
When can I start?

422
00:20:35.099 --> 00:20:36.839
since John leaves it.

423
00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:39.539
So, yeah, they blow him up straight away in this.

424
00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:41.160
So he's not in the rest of this story.

425
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.220
Plus, the scene on Brighton Beach.

426
00:20:44.279 --> 00:20:48.119
It's quite amazing because, you know, when we when we last see the

427
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:50.640
doctor in Romana in the horns of Nymon, they're sort of having a

428
00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.519
joke about how Romana's in great condition.

429
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:56.519
Not you, the TARDIS and, you know, they have that Scooby-Doo

430
00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:56.819
ending.

431
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:00.180
And then the 1st time we see them here, they're just ratting at

432
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:04.859
each other and Romana's ratty with canine and canines pernickety

433
00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:07.380
and the doctor doesn't care, the canines just blown up.

434
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:11.220
It kind of sets up the tone of the season.

435
00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:14.519
Do you know, I love that. love that scene.

436
00:21:14.579 --> 00:21:16.200
I'm really...

437
00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:18.359
So do I, but it's just amazing how the relationships have

438
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:18.720
changed.

439
00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:21.779
The scene on Brighton Beach, when everyone's grumpy with each

440
00:21:21.779 --> 00:21:21.960
other.

441
00:21:22.019 --> 00:21:25.740
Even the 90 seconds of slow panning across the beach, I think is

442
00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:26.640
spectacular.

443
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:27.720
And I'll tell you why.

444
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:32.279
Because on the commentary, both Bidmead and Lala Ward say, why is

445
00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:33.059
this scene here?

446
00:21:33.059 --> 00:21:38.519
And it's very, very clear that this scene is a response or a

447
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.220
reaction against the previous year.

448
00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:44.460
And we spent the previous year complaining about how we never go

449
00:21:44.460 --> 00:21:49.200
on location, we're in like constant brown claustrophobic sets that

450
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:49.920
are dull.

451
00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:58.559
And so we start with a scene where it's really, really directed in

452
00:21:58.559 --> 00:22:02.880
a, in an artistic way, and in a way that isn't about furthering

453
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.660
the narrative, it's about creating just pretty pictures and

454
00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:07.559
soundscapes.

455
00:22:07.619 --> 00:22:12.599
The sound design on that scene is terrific, the music is fantastic

456
00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:16.680
the seagulls, you get Tom snoring gradually coming up.

457
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:21.359
You get the beautiful Brighton pavilion thing out of focus in the

458
00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:21.960
background.

459
00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:26.700
When canine explodes, there's a massive reaction from the

460
00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:27.900
seagulls.

461
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:34.019
You know, you get Romana coming up from the beach behind sand

462
00:22:34.019 --> 00:22:35.940
that's out of focus in the foreground.

463
00:22:36.000 --> 00:22:36.480
The whole thing.

464
00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:38.099
Ursula Andros movie.

465
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:39.900
Ursula Andrews moment.

466
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.119
The whole thing just looks great.

467
00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:45.900
It looks so great and it's really just saying this is going to be

468
00:22:45.900 --> 00:22:46.319
new.

469
00:22:46.380 --> 00:22:47.400
This is something great.

470
00:22:47.460 --> 00:22:52.200
And given that it is, you know, leading into a story that is just

471
00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:53.519
in a studio set.

472
00:22:53.579 --> 00:22:56.400
It's like a spectacularly well shot and what the science studio

473
00:22:56.400 --> 00:22:56.759
said.

474
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:59.579
This is saying we're not last used Doctor Who.

475
00:22:59.640 --> 00:23:02.400
This is something going to be really, really new.

476
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:04.980
And maybe it goes on for maybe 5 seconds too long.

477
00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:07.259
But it is...

478
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:09.539
It looks so great.

479
00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:11.220
I could just watch it over and over again.

480
00:23:11.279 --> 00:23:13.019
I agree with you artistically.

481
00:23:13.079 --> 00:23:15.119
I think the length of it is far too long.

482
00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:19.980
Um, so it's it's a criticism that's been levelled at it before.

483
00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:24.299
I'd much prefer it to come in and the snoring to snark much

484
00:23:24.299 --> 00:23:24.900
sooner.

485
00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:28.619
There's no logic behind canine and going to get the ball in the

486
00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:28.980
sea.

487
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:30.119
I just think it's stupid.

488
00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:33.539
Like he's not that dumb, but he's made to seem that dumb.

489
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:38.160
Lala has her worst moment in this story where she screams canine.

490
00:23:38.220 --> 00:23:40.859
It's so over the top and it's utterly awful.

491
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:41.759
That's my opinion.

492
00:23:41.819 --> 00:23:43.500
I know that you're shaking your head.

493
00:23:43.559 --> 00:23:45.119
I'm just going to express my opinion.

494
00:23:45.180 --> 00:23:47.700
Everything that we say is our opinion, though.

495
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:48.900
This is a safe place.

496
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:49.440
Okay.

497
00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:54.839
So other than that, Falala, I think the rest of this story is an

498
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.539
absolute tour de force for her. absolutely.

499
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:00.480
I think it's possibly her best performance is Romana.

500
00:24:00.539 --> 00:24:02.160
Obviously I haven't been around last season.

501
00:24:02.220 --> 00:24:07.200
It took me a long time to get used to her as Romana after Mary and

502
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:11.880
I personally feel that she doesn't really hit the mark until the

503
00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:12.720
nightmare of Eden.

504
00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:16.140
I think she's fantastic in the horns and I'm on and mean this, I

505
00:24:16.140 --> 00:24:18.059
just, every other choice.

506
00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:21.359
Besides that one sequence, and I think it's just the fact that I

507
00:24:21.359 --> 00:24:23.099
think it's silly that canine blows up.

508
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.640
But I agree that it's beautifully shot and all the visuals are

509
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.319
great, but I just think it's dumb.

510
00:24:28.380 --> 00:24:31.920
But every other choice that she makes in this story is just

511
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:32.880
phenomenal.

512
00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:34.200
Phenomenal.

513
00:24:34.259 --> 00:24:35.039
She's amazing.

514
00:24:35.099 --> 00:24:37.980
Look, I would, you know how much I love Mary Tam, but in this, in

515
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:41.099
this story, I know you said that Mary took a year off acting, in

516
00:24:41.099 --> 00:24:44.160
this story, she outacts Mary 100,000%.

517
00:24:44.220 --> 00:24:48.119
Because especially her various reactions to like the doctor being

518
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:50.460
pulled, oh, and then her reaction to the doctor being an old man.

519
00:24:50.519 --> 00:24:54.779
It's not that over the top reaction from the 1st scene, it's it's

520
00:24:54.779 --> 00:24:59.400
horror and it's concern and it's affection and it's all these

521
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:01.740
different emotions rolled up into one and she does it so well.

522
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:05.700
I'd like to talk about Tom's costume, which is a good idea.

523
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:09.420
Which is John Nathan Turner wanted the whole look of the doctor

524
00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:11.099
redesigned by Jen Hudson.

525
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:16.859
Really interesting that June in the documentary says that he was

526
00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:19.980
quite happy for the scarf to go as well, but she actually put her

527
00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:21.720
foot down and said, no, it had to remain.

528
00:25:21.779 --> 00:25:26.460
I think there's a number of decisions in this season that what

529
00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:29.700
John wants to do and what John actually gets are 2 different

530
00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:33.119
things, and thank goodness for serendipity, where some people say

531
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.059
no, that's not the right way to go or it doesn't quite work out.

532
00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:39.539
Um, the way he wants it to, but it ends up what's on screen

533
00:25:39.539 --> 00:25:40.319
actually works.

534
00:25:40.380 --> 00:25:44.640
I mean, she also was violently against having the question marks

535
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.640
in the colons, but, you know, put them in suckling, and I think

536
00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:47.940
that's okay.

537
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:49.140
They're not subtle enough.

538
00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.440
Okay, they're not, but, you know, I'm just going to say this, the

539
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:55.259
colour of the costume and the shape of the hat and all that

540
00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:59.579
absolutely and totally, utterly hate it.

541
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:00.779
Oh, really?

542
00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:01.559
In this story.

543
00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:02.940
I absolutely hate it.

544
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.940
Ask me the same question in our next podcast.

545
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:07.559
Let's see what I'm feeling.

546
00:26:07.619 --> 00:26:10.619
But I really, throughout all of this, it's sort of like the doctor

547
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:12.599
looks older and then is older.

548
00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:13.559
Yeah, yeah.

549
00:26:13.619 --> 00:26:17.279
I just don't like the colour of the costume.

550
00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:19.019
It's just this uniform thing.

551
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:22.680
I don't know perhaps because the doctor's age so much.

552
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:25.079
Like Tom always used to be so vital and young.

553
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:28.740
I mean, in this, he's not and he's not humourous and he's not

554
00:26:28.740 --> 00:26:30.900
quite, there's a change.

555
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:31.980
Yeah.

556
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:32.339
And.

557
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:37.259
Something I discovered when I was researching the story is, Tom

558
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:41.460
and Lala had actually broken up for the 1st time, after Shada, and

559
00:26:41.460 --> 00:26:43.200
they were still broken up during this.

560
00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:48.000
Tom suddenly realised, hold on, this is a terrible mistake. you

561
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.539
know, I'd like us to, I'd like us to be together again, and Lala

562
00:26:51.539 --> 00:26:52.920
didn't at this stage.

563
00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:59.099
And, you can actually track the progress of this relationship from

564
00:26:59.099 --> 00:27:01.079
story to story. season 18.

565
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:02.640
What fun on the set?

566
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:03.660
exactly.

567
00:27:03.720 --> 00:27:08.460
But the amazing thing is, you would never know watching their

568
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:09.000
performances.

569
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:13.140
You know, they are still so, so good together in terms of

570
00:27:13.140 --> 00:27:13.619
performance.

571
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:17.339
But I do, I do have to wonder because when we see, when we see Tom

572
00:27:17.339 --> 00:27:20.220
now, you know, of course, sometimes when you see Tom being

573
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:23.220
interviewed, it's hard to tell if he's being Tom or if he's being

574
00:27:23.220 --> 00:27:25.799
Tom Baker, but...

575
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:34.619
He always seems to be a very emotional person, but not, he tries

576
00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:36.299
not to let his emotions rule him.

577
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:39.359
So, I would imagine, you know, that if he'd fallen head over heels

578
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:41.099
for Lala.

579
00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:45.059
And then, sort of, one of them said, I don't think this is working

580
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:47.819
then they both agreed, but then, six months later, You know, that

581
00:27:47.819 --> 00:27:53.460
could, in terms of visibly, in terms of the face, that could age a

582
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:54.420
person, that stress.

583
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.380
And it does seem to have happened, because, you know, it's like

584
00:27:58.380 --> 00:28:01.980
his first six years as a doctor, he kind of changes a little in

585
00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:04.079
the face, but not very much, and then all of a sudden, in this

586
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:04.319
season.

587
00:28:04.380 --> 00:28:08.099
You know, he does look so different, and then you've got the very

588
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:09.779
different costume and what have you.

589
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:12.839
Years ago, we had Dudley for a convention.

590
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:15.900
And I had the pleasure of interviewing him.

591
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:21.420
And someone, during the Q&A, asked, you know, Dudley, how did it

592
00:28:21.420 --> 00:28:26.099
feel to, you know, stop working on the program after so long?

593
00:28:26.099 --> 00:28:28.500
And that's where Dudley told the story of, look, you know, John

594
00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:29.700
Nathan Turner's very nice man.

595
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:33.420
He'd worked on the show almost as long as I had in one capacity or

596
00:28:33.420 --> 00:28:36.539
another, he actually took me out to dinner and explained the whole

597
00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:36.779
thing.

598
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:41.880
And I said to him, okay, John, you might be getting rid of me, and

599
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:43.500
I completely understand that you have this new direction.

600
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:46.380
But you have to keep something of the old show.

601
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:50.640
If you change the costume, and the music, and the theme and the

602
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:55.319
titles, and the way it looks, how are people going to know they're

603
00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:55.920
watching the same show?

604
00:28:56.279 --> 00:28:59.579
And Dudley Zeddy even said in that dinner.

605
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.759
Out of all those, I'm the obvious one to get rid of, because I'm

606
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:04.740
not visual, but you've got to keep something.

607
00:29:04.859 --> 00:29:11.099
And, I mean, it seems to have shown, because the ratings in the UK

608
00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:12.839
sorry to steal your usual thing, Tom.

609
00:29:12.900 --> 00:29:14.099
Oh, I'm sitting here.

610
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:14.880
I know where you're going.

611
00:29:14.940 --> 00:29:17.700
They were 6000000 for the 1st episode.

612
00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:18.359
The low.

613
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:19.259
Oh, no, was it lower?

614
00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:21.240
5.9, 5.9.

615
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.619
Now, this is the 1st time Doctor Who has hit these levels since

616
00:29:25.619 --> 00:29:31.380
Inferno, and they will go lower, as low as 3.7 in a few weeks time

617
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:37.619
which is like this whole season is a ratings disaster, disaster.

618
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:38.460
Sorry, Brendan.

619
00:29:38.519 --> 00:29:38.880
That all right.

620
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.940
No, I was just going to say, it's the lowest rating season opener

621
00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:46.079
since the smugglers, where, you know, Doctor Who was on the verge

622
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:46.740
of cancellation.

623
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.859
It also didn't help that it was up against Buck Rogers.

624
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:52.740
The first 20 episodes of this season are up against Buck Rogers

625
00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.900
and Doctor Who drops out of the top 100 shows.

626
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:57.480
By the end of this story, I think.

627
00:29:57.660 --> 00:29:59.460
Episode two.

628
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:01.440
Do you remember Bach Rogers?

629
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:02.700
I've never seen it.

630
00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:03.839
It's so poor.

631
00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:09.420
I remember the buzz for it and we watched it like initially, the

632
00:30:09.420 --> 00:30:12.960
1st episode or 2 and then my father said, I can't stand that robot

633
00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:13.500
thing.

634
00:30:13.559 --> 00:30:14.460
We're never watching this again.

635
00:30:14.579 --> 00:30:18.480
It makes original Battlestar Galactica look like Chekhov.

636
00:30:18.660 --> 00:30:20.400
So bad.

637
00:30:20.460 --> 00:30:24.059
If you want something really terrible from around the same time.

638
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:26.099
Jason of Star Command.

639
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.079
Oh, I've never even heard of that.

640
00:30:28.140 --> 00:30:31.799
Um, so it's kind of film like Doctor Who in the, it's a very

641
00:30:31.799 --> 00:30:35.160
prosini march, but it's usually just filmed on one film camera and

642
00:30:35.160 --> 00:30:37.140
they just don't move, the camera is just static.

643
00:30:37.200 --> 00:30:39.599
And then they do one or 2 close-ups later.

644
00:30:39.660 --> 00:30:45.359
It was a spinoff of, I think, a show called Star Command, featuring

645
00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:49.859
Jonathan Harris, but as the sort of head of this Starfleet Academy

646
00:30:49.859 --> 00:30:50.160
thing.

647
00:30:50.220 --> 00:30:53.279
And they were going to sort of reboot it and bring in this young

648
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.279
hero, and Jonathan Harris refused to share the screen with a young

649
00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:56.579
hero.

650
00:30:56.640 --> 00:30:59.940
So it was retooled, and the Jonathan Harris character was replaced

651
00:30:59.940 --> 00:31:01.019
by James Dewan.

652
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:02.099
Oh, God.

653
00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:04.559
Sounds shocking like that.

654
00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:09.779
You know, it's it's like space 1999 and Star Wars and Battlestar

655
00:31:09.779 --> 00:31:12.960
Galactica made on half of Doctor Who's budget.

656
00:31:13.019 --> 00:31:17.279
Jason of Star Command. you'll find it in the notes. try and find

657
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:17.460
it.

658
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.259
But back to what you're saying about ratings.

659
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:22.859
I think looking at the ratings for this whole season. saddest

660
00:31:22.859 --> 00:31:25.680
things is the fact that, you know, it is such a disaster.

661
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:29.759
Not one episode is inside the top 50 and up to this point, Tom has

662
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:32.700
barely been outside the top 50 in terms of placings.

663
00:31:32.759 --> 00:31:36.599
There's so many episodes like 145th, 170th.

664
00:31:36.660 --> 00:31:41.460
The show is on life support, you know, if the BBC wanted to end it

665
00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:42.720
now, they could have.

666
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:47.460
I think Tom going is actually a really good thing because it means

667
00:31:47.460 --> 00:31:50.099
that they've got another shot shot at things.

668
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:51.240
But we digress.

669
00:31:51.299 --> 00:31:55.440
Normally, you know, the ratings of a story reflect the reaction to

670
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:56.460
the previous story.

671
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.059
You know, you it's not people switching off halfway. people

672
00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:02.460
deciding not to tune in because last week was so terrible.

673
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:09.299
I mean, is it because season 17 was sort of so exhausted that no

674
00:32:09.299 --> 00:32:11.519
one tuned in for the beginning of season 18?

675
00:32:11.579 --> 00:32:12.539
Well, I don't know.

676
00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:16.259
I mean, I've talked about this before, how Doctor Who was pitching

677
00:32:16.259 --> 00:32:19.380
to different audiences, and I don't think, I think that the kids

678
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:22.619
who were with the show in the early 70s are now teenagers, and

679
00:32:22.619 --> 00:32:23.759
they're going out on the town.

680
00:32:23.819 --> 00:32:25.440
It's 1980, it's a new decade.

681
00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:28.799
I don't think that the young ones over the last few years have

682
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:31.200
been fostered to come into the show and keep on watching it.

683
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:34.740
And I think it's a combination of those things, that there's just

684
00:32:34.740 --> 00:32:39.960
we've still got the diehard fans, but that, Next generation

685
00:32:39.960 --> 00:32:43.859
there's just this, this, this point where the ones who are

686
00:32:43.859 --> 00:32:46.740
teenagers and the ones who are younger, the teenagers are moving

687
00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:50.339
on, they're not coming back to Doctor Who, and we haven't fostered

688
00:32:50.339 --> 00:32:51.539
the younger ones over the last few years.

689
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:53.880
I just think there's this horrible turning point.

690
00:32:53.940 --> 00:32:58.920
Yeah, that's an excellent point, because as much as lots of people

691
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:02.039
are critical of various aspects of the new series, and both

692
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:08.099
executives, the Russell era and the and the Stephen Moffatt era.

693
00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:14.339
But both of them did a really good job of balancing the adult and

694
00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:15.839
the child elements in the audience.

695
00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:21.359
And as much as I love season 18, and season 17, for completely

696
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:21.960
different reasons.

697
00:33:22.019 --> 00:33:25.619
I think you're right, Todd, in that there's not, there's not a

698
00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:29.099
great deal to bring in the younger audience in them.

699
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:34.019
It's very intelligent television, it's great for, say, teens and

700
00:33:34.019 --> 00:33:37.200
older, but is there anything there for the 8 year olds?

701
00:33:37.259 --> 00:33:42.599
I think too, this season we're going to see the seeds of the shows

702
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.740
demise being sown.

703
00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:51.660
And here, like one of the things that finally ends the show is the

704
00:33:51.660 --> 00:33:55.740
idea that it's a cult science fiction program for dedicated fans

705
00:33:55.740 --> 00:33:59.759
and not something for the general family audience to watch at a

706
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:00.960
Saturday tea time.

707
00:34:01.019 --> 00:34:04.200
Do you think having the Starfield effect sort of reinforces that?

708
00:34:04.259 --> 00:34:05.099
I think it does.

709
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:08.579
And I also think, and much as I love it, I love all of the

710
00:34:08.579 --> 00:34:13.019
scientific, you know, the fact that the doctor and Romana are

711
00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:16.739
scientists, that they're using sort of technical terminology about

712
00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:20.039
sort of unreal transfer and things that we don't understand and

713
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:23.579
that we don't really need to know, there's a long scene in which I

714
00:34:23.579 --> 00:34:27.539
actually think some of Layla's best acting work is done and that's

715
00:34:27.539 --> 00:34:31.800
her and hard and yeah, and those are beautiful shots.

716
00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:35.760
Oh, just wonderful, you know, those plastic frames in the

717
00:34:35.760 --> 00:34:38.039
foreground of the shot, those pyramid things.

718
00:34:38.280 --> 00:34:42.119
It's just visually spectacular she's acting her socks off.

719
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:45.900
But the dialogue about what being a scientist is like, you know

720
00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:48.719
pressures on scientists for funding, all of that stuff.

721
00:34:48.780 --> 00:34:51.960
The science stuff is huge this season.

722
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:52.980
Absolutely huge.

723
00:34:53.039 --> 00:34:57.960
And that is a sort of nerd science fiction, niche interest, I

724
00:34:57.960 --> 00:34:58.199
think.

725
00:34:58.260 --> 00:35:02.099
But the fact is that the ratings are down to begin with. you know

726
00:35:02.099 --> 00:35:03.719
before we even get to that point, you know?

727
00:35:03.780 --> 00:35:04.860
Yeah, yeah.

728
00:35:04.920 --> 00:35:05.760
So is it last year?

729
00:35:05.820 --> 00:35:08.940
Is it people not tuning in because last year was a bit of a train

730
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:09.420
wreck.

731
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:13.139
Perhaps, but I still think it's a reflection of the previous

732
00:35:13.139 --> 00:35:17.280
couple of years where, you know, the last couple of stories, the

733
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.980
production, people are tuning into the episodes that have really

734
00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:22.679
ropey production values.

735
00:35:22.739 --> 00:35:25.800
So they're getting to see shaky corridors or big monsters that are

736
00:35:25.800 --> 00:35:26.340
bad to you.

737
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.460
So that's now getting engrained into people's...

738
00:35:29.460 --> 00:35:30.900
Yeah, that's a bit of a joke.

739
00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:31.559
That's right.

740
00:35:31.619 --> 00:35:34.920
Audiences will come back for Warrior's Gate.

741
00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:38.099
That's when it picks up, but then it sort of drops off again.

742
00:35:38.159 --> 00:35:40.079
I mean, it is a shame.

743
00:35:40.139 --> 00:35:45.059
It is a great shame because season 17 is clever and terrific fun

744
00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:53.039
and season 18 is smart and has this amazing thematic unity, looks

745
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:54.539
spectacularly good.

746
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:57.000
Eventually, it gets quite witty.

747
00:35:57.059 --> 00:36:01.440
You know, the comedy is far more subtle than last series.

748
00:36:01.500 --> 00:36:04.920
But also it continues something Richard brought up last series

749
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:09.659
which is the idea of the individual against the conglomerate.

750
00:36:09.900 --> 00:36:13.980
However, I think this season explores it in a very different way

751
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:16.679
and comes to very different conclusions by the end of it, and

752
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:21.780
Harden is representative of that, because Harden is a scientist

753
00:36:21.780 --> 00:36:26.039
who's falsifying his results in order to get more funding, but we

754
00:36:26.039 --> 00:36:28.920
also find out, and I think it's absolutely beautiful.

755
00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.639
He's falsifying his results to stay close to the woman he loves.

756
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:35.519
And, you know, it's never, it's never explicitly stated.

757
00:36:35.579 --> 00:36:39.480
It's all in, it's all in the action described in the script in the

758
00:36:39.480 --> 00:36:40.380
performances.

759
00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:46.380
But he and Adrian Corey, as Mina, play that relationship so

760
00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:47.039
beautifully.

761
00:36:47.159 --> 00:36:50.219
And when the world's going to pieces and there's an army advancing

762
00:36:50.219 --> 00:36:52.860
on him, his 1st instinct is to go save the woman he loves.

763
00:36:52.980 --> 00:36:54.059
It's so beautiful.

764
00:36:54.119 --> 00:36:55.260
It is really great.

765
00:36:55.380 --> 00:36:56.400
And it is weird.

766
00:36:56.519 --> 00:36:58.800
Like I was going, are they on to get what's happening?

767
00:36:58.860 --> 00:37:00.719
But her husband's just died.

768
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:01.980
That was her husband, wasn't it?

769
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:03.780
Yeah, an episode's having an affair with part.

770
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:05.880
Yeah, well, an intellectual.

771
00:37:05.940 --> 00:37:09.420
But at the same time, you know, after he's dead, she kind of comes

772
00:37:09.420 --> 00:37:11.579
in and there's not much reaction from her.

773
00:37:11.639 --> 00:37:15.659
But she's a force of nature when she comes in and she actually

774
00:37:15.659 --> 00:37:20.159
like, controls, she almost directs the story in the scenes that

775
00:37:20.159 --> 00:37:20.639
she's in.

776
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:24.960
The cameras all over her and she deteriorates gradually and that's

777
00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:26.760
reflected in the way she's shot as well.

778
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:29.099
Now, when this was first on.

779
00:37:29.159 --> 00:37:34.920
Rod found and still finds their head globes dropping off as one of

780
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:36.360
the scariest things in Doctor Who.

781
00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:41.099
He said, it's like this tiny physical representation of death

782
00:37:41.099 --> 00:37:43.440
except they don't die, they get back up again, but then they die

783
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:48.179
again, and it's quite freaky, and you get the extreme closer, and

784
00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:51.239
you know, that's to show the audience that one of their, one of

785
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:52.320
their bits is dropping off.

786
00:37:52.380 --> 00:37:56.340
But at the same time, you know, it's it's this sudden crash close

787
00:37:56.340 --> 00:37:57.420
up and then back out again.

788
00:37:57.480 --> 00:37:58.860
Like it's very, it's almost subliminal.

789
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:00.599
It's got great sound as well.

790
00:38:00.659 --> 00:38:03.119
Isn't there a sting, there's a little sting, isn't there?

791
00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:03.840
Yeah, yeah.

792
00:38:03.900 --> 00:38:04.260
Yeah.

793
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:07.739
I really think that Lawrence Payne, who plays Morix in episode one

794
00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:10.079
and his husband does a fantastic job.

795
00:38:10.139 --> 00:38:14.159
I think he is phenomenal and is often overlooked because she is so

796
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:14.400
good.

797
00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:18.119
I personally don't like her performance to begin with.

798
00:38:18.179 --> 00:38:22.380
It's so cold and so stilted and I can understand why.

799
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:24.300
I mean, you know, her husband's dead.

800
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:25.079
She's got to take control.

801
00:38:25.139 --> 00:38:27.960
She's got to have that icy sort of exterior being in control.

802
00:38:28.019 --> 00:38:31.440
But as she thaws and gets weaker and also then goes up against her

803
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:31.860
son.

804
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:32.340
Yeah.

805
00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:32.820
You know?

806
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:35.820
The performance just gets better and better throughout the story.

807
00:38:35.940 --> 00:38:39.119
I mean, she has to pitch it so there's a deterioration and a

808
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:39.539
change.

809
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:43.500
And so, and that opening scene where, you know, she walks straight

810
00:38:43.500 --> 00:38:47.340
into the camera and then she's walking away from the camera and

811
00:38:47.340 --> 00:38:50.280
her backs to the camera and the camera stays there.

812
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:53.760
She's like, she's frozen the camera and she walks off in an

813
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:56.699
instant and she's having to shout her dialogue from the end of the

814
00:38:56.699 --> 00:38:57.719
corridor at the end.

815
00:38:57.780 --> 00:39:01.019
She's she's she is a force of nature.

816
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.199
She's like terrifyingly competent in things.

817
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:05.880
And so sweet.

818
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:11.579
Like when the doctor gets aged in the generator and all she feels

819
00:39:11.579 --> 00:39:15.480
is sympathy for him and sympathy for hard and even as she's, you

820
00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:17.159
know, degenerating physically.

821
00:39:17.219 --> 00:39:19.679
She's so warm and so sweet.

822
00:39:19.739 --> 00:39:24.059
You know, it's one of the best performances in Doctor Whoever, I

823
00:39:24.059 --> 00:39:24.239
think.

824
00:39:24.300 --> 00:39:25.920
And how good is old Tom?

825
00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:26.880
Yes.

826
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:30.480
He fought against it.

827
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:32.219
Like when he got the script, he's like, no.

828
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:35.099
No, we're rewriting this and I'm changing I'm changing back after

829
00:39:35.099 --> 00:39:36.000
the Cliffhanger.

830
00:39:36.059 --> 00:39:39.719
And I think it was John Nathan Turner, whom he had a much better

831
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:42.179
relationship with at this stage than he had with Graham Williams

832
00:39:42.179 --> 00:39:43.500
who said to him, no, no, Tom.

833
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:45.840
No, we're not going to change you back until the last episode, but

834
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:50.280
your reaction to that becomes the story and we show how

835
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:52.559
resourceful the doctor is even in this condition.

836
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:56.460
And it gives you a chance to play a different side of the

837
00:39:56.460 --> 00:39:56.639
character.

838
00:39:56.699 --> 00:39:59.579
Oh, it gives him a chance to act, and he hasn't done that for so

839
00:39:59.579 --> 00:40:00.179
long.

840
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:00.900
Correct.

841
00:40:00.960 --> 00:40:04.559
It is just, you know, it's just Tom being Tom and it has been for

842
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:06.179
ages, but he's great.

843
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.599
Yeah, he'll do it next episode next story as well.

844
00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:11.099
He'll get to do some acting too.

845
00:40:11.159 --> 00:40:14.940
Yeah, I think it's so wonderful, but he doesn't just care.

846
00:40:14.940 --> 00:40:18.239
You know, he doesn't turn it into a caricature.

847
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:21.900
He kind of goes, my brain hasn't aged.

848
00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:23.159
It's my body.

849
00:40:23.219 --> 00:40:27.900
And it's, he just plays it so subtly different, but it's so

850
00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:30.780
effective and the makeup's amazing.

851
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:34.679
And I think that's, it's an effect of the new costume, which, sorry

852
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:35.820
Todd, I have to say I love.

853
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:39.539
But the effects in your costume, because it's so huge, when Tom's

854
00:40:39.539 --> 00:40:42.840
got all this aged makeup on is sort of stooped, he looks even

855
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:44.519
smaller because of the big costume.

856
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.300
And then, of course, we have David Haig.

857
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:52.079
Yeah, so he goes on to be quite famous and does movies and all

858
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:55.500
sorts of things as Pangol, and I think he is tremendous.

859
00:40:55.559 --> 00:41:00.119
He is great, and he's the bad boy of this story, and I remember

860
00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:00.960
that as a kid.

861
00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:05.340
Like, you know, I kind of think he's a bit Colin Farrell-ish in

862
00:41:05.340 --> 00:41:06.480
his looks and that sort of thing.

863
00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:07.199
Yeah, yeah.

864
00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:12.480
Of course, you know, time, perhaps has not been so kind, please

865
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:17.820
watch the documentaries, but his performance in this, I think, is

866
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:18.659
amazing.

867
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:21.480
I just, you know, it really is incredible.

868
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:24.539
It's really interesting, I think, then at the end.

869
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:27.960
And I'm sort of jumping around here is that when Pangol actually

870
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:30.960
gets turned back into a baby and Mina says, well, you know, this

871
00:41:30.960 --> 00:41:31.679
time I...

872
00:41:31.679 --> 00:41:33.599
I must try and bring him up properly.

873
00:41:33.659 --> 00:41:35.219
Is that nature?

874
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:36.239
Is it nurture?

875
00:41:36.300 --> 00:41:37.199
Will he still come up?

876
00:41:37.260 --> 00:41:38.880
Will he still come back to that same point?

877
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:40.440
will it be different?

878
00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:42.119
It's such a funny line.

879
00:41:42.179 --> 00:41:45.900
Yeah, it's a that's maybe the best joke of the...

880
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.820
One of my favourite Pangal lines is just the reveal of who he is.

881
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:54.840
But it's instead of, you know, later on he says, I'm a child of

882
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:58.860
the generator, but his reveal is, how old do you think I am, Mr

883
00:41:58.860 --> 00:41:59.340
Brock?

884
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:00.300
It's wonderful.

885
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:03.059
And it's wonderfully delivered and a great shot.

886
00:42:03.119 --> 00:42:04.619
And it's trusting the audience.

887
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:05.460
Yeah.

888
00:42:05.460 --> 00:42:07.860
And that is something this season does really well.

889
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:09.780
Sometimes it's confusing.

890
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:14.099
I think I had to watch Warriors Gate 3 times before the 1st time I

891
00:42:14.099 --> 00:42:15.179
watched it before I got it.

892
00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:19.559
But yeah, it's trusting your audience to fill in, to fill in the

893
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:19.800
gaps.

894
00:42:19.860 --> 00:42:23.460
We should have been asking ourselves, given that we knew that the

895
00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:26.400
war was 40 years ago, why Pangol was so young.

896
00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:30.000
But you don't think about that.

897
00:42:30.059 --> 00:42:34.139
No, the story is going on, you don't, it doesn't click to a

898
00:42:34.139 --> 00:42:34.679
certain point.

899
00:42:34.739 --> 00:42:38.460
Suddenly you do realise you get that input and that sort of

900
00:42:38.460 --> 00:42:38.639
thing.

901
00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:45.539
I think a big comedy fail in this story, though, is that at the

902
00:42:45.539 --> 00:42:47.880
end of episode through beginning of episode 4, when the Formasia

903
00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:49.320
unmasked, which is hilarious.

904
00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:57.059
Nobody kind of, nobody kind of reacts with any sort of, not

905
00:42:57.059 --> 00:42:58.920
exactly disbelief, but surprise.

906
00:42:58.980 --> 00:43:02.039
The doctor just kind of goes, of course they're fomal seat, but

907
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:04.559
nobody says, they're 3 times the signs.

908
00:43:04.619 --> 00:43:07.199
Well, they've got those Slovene compression things.

909
00:43:07.260 --> 00:43:13.320
I'm sure that Russell is to some degree actually Red Conninger in

910
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:14.039
aliens of London.

911
00:43:14.099 --> 00:43:17.699
Look, I just thought they were just sucking in the fat. all do

912
00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:17.880
it.

913
00:43:17.940 --> 00:43:20.039
We all, yeah, I'm doing it now.

914
00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:23.820
Well, the thing is, Russell does kind of steal something from the

915
00:43:23.820 --> 00:43:28.679
story that we mentioned a moment ago, which is, of course, Blonde

916
00:43:28.679 --> 00:43:32.760
Felfotch, Passimir Day Slavine, is regressed back to an egg.

917
00:43:32.820 --> 00:43:36.360
Ah, she is too. and put in the hatchery to get a new start, just

918
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:38.940
like hanging out. to get brought up properly this time.

919
00:43:39.000 --> 00:43:45.000
I really like that scene and I like the fact that no remark is

920
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:48.719
actually made about the, about the Fomasi sort of squashing into

921
00:43:48.719 --> 00:43:52.679
the, I mean, we didn't complain that Julian Glover had a big

922
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:55.920
tentacle head that was much bigger than Julian Glover's own head.

923
00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:59.039
You know, like, presumably he had to squash into that mask as

924
00:43:59.039 --> 00:43:59.219
well.

925
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:04.380
But there's something so sort of stylised about it, and that

926
00:44:04.380 --> 00:44:07.619
particular scene with all of its quick cutting and extreme close

927
00:44:06.900 --> 00:44:13.800
ups and comedy reaction shots is really, really amazing looking

928
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:15.659
and something that a show hadn't done before.

929
00:44:15.719 --> 00:44:19.980
Phil Sandafar does one of his rare video blogs where he compares

930
00:44:19.980 --> 00:44:23.880
the direction of some scenes from last year's creature from the

931
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:28.320
pier, which is a David Fisher script, with scenes, including that

932
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:32.820
scene from the leisure hive, and talks about how just the show's

933
00:44:32.820 --> 00:44:34.320
whole visual language has changed.

934
00:44:34.380 --> 00:44:37.079
And so I'll put a reference to that in the show notes.

935
00:44:37.139 --> 00:44:39.059
George Sandra has an amazing beard.

936
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:40.079
He does.

937
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:40.739
He really does.

938
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:42.239
Going back to the direction.

939
00:44:42.420 --> 00:44:46.320
There are so many wonderful little moments, and I really like the

940
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:49.019
way in which Brock and...

941
00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:54.119
So who is it clout his offsider who gets no lines at all, but he

942
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:57.719
gets the close-up shots and all the establishing shots.

943
00:44:57.780 --> 00:44:58.440
It's really interesting.

944
00:44:58.500 --> 00:44:59.820
I keep expecting him to talk.

945
00:44:59.880 --> 00:45:03.599
And then there's, who's the other one that gets killed off for...

946
00:45:03.599 --> 00:45:04.199
Stimson.

947
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:05.579
Oh, Stimson, sorry. as well.

948
00:45:05.639 --> 00:45:09.480
And, you know, I forgot about those 2 characters, but the way in

949
00:45:09.480 --> 00:45:11.159
which they're brought into the action.

950
00:45:11.219 --> 00:45:16.079
I just think is so clever and interesting and, you know, ultimately

951
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:19.079
you know, they're good and evil and going to be killed off.

952
00:45:19.139 --> 00:45:23.099
The thing I like about cloud is that we see the 1st indication

953
00:45:23.099 --> 00:45:26.579
that that's a disguise that Brocken cloud aren't real people is

954
00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:31.500
that Stimson finds the clout suit in the wardrobe.

955
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:32.639
And it actually looks really good.

956
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:34.320
Well, the thing is, because it's a low list.

957
00:45:34.380 --> 00:45:38.219
It's very funny, but the actor never opens his mouth.

958
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:39.780
Not only does he never say anything.

959
00:45:39.840 --> 00:45:43.500
He never opens his mouth and his facial expression matches that

960
00:45:43.500 --> 00:45:44.219
mask.

961
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:48.480
So he's acting so that he looks like the rubber mask in the

962
00:45:48.480 --> 00:45:49.079
wardrobe.

963
00:45:49.139 --> 00:45:50.280
That's terrific.

964
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:55.920
I do think that this story and the design and the directorial

965
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.639
touch is actually informs Babylon 5 because Joe Michael Strazinski

966
00:45:59.639 --> 00:46:02.699
your career Babylon 5 has gone on record as saying Doctor Who was

967
00:46:02.699 --> 00:46:03.239
an influence.

968
00:46:03.300 --> 00:46:06.780
The Argolan crystal technology looks a lot like the Minbari

969
00:46:06.780 --> 00:46:11.400
technology, and even some of the shots, such as Simpson finding

970
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:12.539
the skin suit.

971
00:46:12.599 --> 00:46:18.239
It's actually almost matched with a shot from the Babylon 5 pilot

972
00:46:18.239 --> 00:46:21.599
where they find someone drowned in essentially a fish tank and

973
00:46:21.599 --> 00:46:24.480
they're on the left side of the screen and the security officers

974
00:46:24.480 --> 00:46:25.079
are looking at them.

975
00:46:25.139 --> 00:46:29.579
I'll see if I can get a screen grab to put up so we can compare

976
00:46:29.579 --> 00:46:29.820
them.

977
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:33.360
Is the idea that the leisure hive is this facility which is

978
00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:37.920
designed for alien species to meet and develop sympathy for each

979
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:40.559
other by experiencing what it's like to be?

980
00:46:40.619 --> 00:46:41.159
Yeah.

981
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:44.519
You know, and that's, that's certainly, that's certainly not that

982
00:46:44.519 --> 00:46:44.880
I know anything.

983
00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:46.139
Nothing at all about Babylon 5.

984
00:46:46.320 --> 00:46:48.480
And in fact, I've never heard of it before you just...

985
00:46:48.780 --> 00:46:54.780
I mean, you know, you can also argue the cursive paladin, so...

986
00:46:54.840 --> 00:46:57.300
I'm going to criticise a few aspects of the story.

987
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:00.360
Okay, I'm going to preemptively tell you that all of these things

988
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:01.139
are going to be wrong.

989
00:47:01.199 --> 00:47:04.860
I think Amina gets ill too quickly and it's very convenient that

990
00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:08.760
her husband dies and then she starts to die straight away.

991
00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:12.179
I think I think the ending is extremely rushed.

992
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:13.800
It's sort of like, if that's it, goodbye.

993
00:47:14.699 --> 00:47:19.019
I do not like the scene, although I like the joke about then

994
00:47:19.019 --> 00:47:22.199
arrest the scarf, but when the doctor is looking over the controls

995
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.500
of the generator and then everybody else is like only like 2

996
00:47:25.500 --> 00:47:28.139
metres away looking at the body with the scarf, like it's very

997
00:47:28.139 --> 00:47:29.940
staged and it doesn't really work.

998
00:47:30.059 --> 00:47:31.800
I understand what they were going for, but it doesn't really

999
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:32.099
work.

1000
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:35.880
All the Pangol masks for the generator should have been like

1001
00:47:35.880 --> 00:47:41.340
people of the same height and size and they're not and it's just

1002
00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:43.019
like, okay.

1003
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:44.639
It's Doctor Who.

1004
00:47:44.699 --> 00:47:46.380
There do seem to be a lot of them.

1005
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:48.719
I mean, I know they're just sort of circling around behind the

1006
00:47:48.719 --> 00:47:51.179
camera and coming back in front of her, but they do seem to be

1007
00:47:51.179 --> 00:47:52.679
quite a large number of them.

1008
00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:54.719
But the way you can tell, because usually, you know, when they do

1009
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:55.320
that sort of thing.

1010
00:47:55.380 --> 00:47:57.059
There a gap, but they manage not to have a gap.

1011
00:47:57.119 --> 00:48:02.519
One of them has his helmet on about 20 degrees off kilter. every

1012
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:03.420
time that guy.

1013
00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:04.980
Walkie-Heller guy.

1014
00:48:05.699 --> 00:48:07.139
I think it's Stuart Fell, because he's very short.

1015
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:11.639
I don't particularly like Romana's costume.

1016
00:48:11.699 --> 00:48:14.519
I think it makes it look like she's got chicken legs, the bottom

1017
00:48:14.519 --> 00:48:15.960
half of the costume.

1018
00:48:16.019 --> 00:48:18.480
So I've got a minor's marks for that on this.

1019
00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:20.159
I'm really stretching here, people.

1020
00:48:20.219 --> 00:48:22.199
It's great to see female attendance.

1021
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:25.500
That's the other thing that I liked. to be with Mina and that sort

1022
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:25.800
of thing.

1023
00:48:25.860 --> 00:48:27.480
I really thought, okay, they've thought about that.

1024
00:48:27.539 --> 00:48:28.380
That's positive.

1025
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:32.219
Obviously, the Marsi costume just doesn't work, but Lovett is

1026
00:48:32.219 --> 00:48:35.039
trying to shoot it in such a way to minimise it.

1027
00:48:35.099 --> 00:48:37.739
When they're 1st introduced and you just get, you know, close-ups

1028
00:48:37.739 --> 00:48:40.860
of an eye or close-up of the hands or just the shadow against the

1029
00:48:40.860 --> 00:48:41.099
wall.

1030
00:48:41.219 --> 00:48:42.599
Like that's quite effective.

1031
00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:46.320
And, you know, I think it is telling that the costume is kind of

1032
00:48:46.320 --> 00:48:46.980
ropey.

1033
00:48:47.099 --> 00:48:51.360
And not all of the effects come off at all, you know, but it still

1034
00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:52.440
just looks visually great.

1035
00:48:52.500 --> 00:48:55.920
Like the way the head of the Fomasi move and their little budgy

1036
00:48:55.920 --> 00:49:01.679
beak and budgy language is great and something we haven't seen

1037
00:49:01.679 --> 00:49:01.980
before.

1038
00:49:02.039 --> 00:49:02.820
But yeah, I agree.

1039
00:49:02.880 --> 00:49:03.719
It doesn't really work.

1040
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:06.840
The model shots you were saying, how they come in really slow on

1041
00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.360
the hive, and it's sort of, they're really trying, but they still

1042
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:10.860
you still, I still sit there going.

1043
00:49:10.980 --> 00:49:13.019
Yeah, it's a model.

1044
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:13.920
It's a terrible model.

1045
00:49:13.980 --> 00:49:17.639
It's not much better than the Naimon power complex was in the

1046
00:49:17.639 --> 00:49:20.940
previous story, but it is so well directed that I don't care.

1047
00:49:21.000 --> 00:49:26.639
You get the matching with the music and also the studio sets built

1048
00:49:26.639 --> 00:49:28.619
to match the model of such a good match.

1049
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:32.159
Yeah, you know, you get that shot with the window we talked about

1050
00:49:32.159 --> 00:49:32.940
earlier, for instance.

1051
00:49:33.059 --> 00:49:37.260
My big problem with the Fomasi, and I think it's a hangover

1052
00:49:37.260 --> 00:49:39.900
because when they were 1st playing the Fomasi, of course, there

1053
00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:41.940
were going to be, you know, fat blokes in business suits.

1054
00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:45.420
And then JNT's like lose the suit, but they never quite lost the

1055
00:49:45.420 --> 00:49:48.239
fact that, you know, they look like Rover from the prisoner

1056
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:49.980
painted green with a head on it.

1057
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.159
And it's kind of like, well, yeah, if you had have made them a bit

1058
00:49:53.159 --> 00:49:56.460
more slender, they might have looked a bit less ridiculous.

1059
00:49:56.519 --> 00:49:58.800
But at the same time, looking ridiculous, kind of helps, because

1060
00:49:58.800 --> 00:50:02.519
they're not evil, and they're not aggressive invaders, and you get

1061
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:05.820
that wonderful bit at the end, which the line isn't funny in

1062
00:50:05.820 --> 00:50:09.000
itself, but just the delivery and the fact that it's coming from

1063
00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:10.619
this roly poly formasi.

1064
00:50:10.679 --> 00:50:12.420
You're mentioned for Marcy.

1065
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:18.960
I like I like when he's pointing at the other naughty FOMA. with

1066
00:50:18.960 --> 00:50:21.480
his finger and says, you're going to stand trial.

1067
00:50:22.559 --> 00:50:24.480
That does remind me.

1068
00:50:24.539 --> 00:50:27.719
It is rather convenient that they managed to get out of their web

1069
00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:30.960
thing on the ship and so it's the evil ones that can blown up

1070
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:32.219
that's a bit of a, you know.

1071
00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:36.239
Well, the thing is, because there's no emotion in his translator

1072
00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:39.539
unit, you know, he says something like, um, they managed to get

1073
00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:40.860
away and overpower us.

1074
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:43.619
It's like, yeah, we kind of thought the ship might have been blown

1075
00:50:43.619 --> 00:50:46.500
up, so we let them go, you know, it's less paperwork.

1076
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:49.380
I want to talk about the visual effects.

1077
00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:51.059
They use the Quantel.

1078
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:52.380
Is that image?

1079
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.139
which I think it's great that in this season that they're really

1080
00:50:55.139 --> 00:50:59.940
trying to use new technologies. something I think that, you know

1081
00:50:59.940 --> 00:51:03.599
Barry Letts pioneered back in the early 70s, um, to varying

1082
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:04.619
degrees of success.

1083
00:51:04.679 --> 00:51:07.500
And I think it's important that a show like Doctor Who, if they

1084
00:51:07.500 --> 00:51:09.840
didn't use these things, we wouldn't be where we are today.

1085
00:51:09.900 --> 00:51:15.000
The commentaries or the documentaries talk about the fact that it

1086
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:18.000
takes all of 2 days to film these things.

1087
00:51:18.059 --> 00:51:20.519
Now you could do it like, you know, in an hour or whatever.

1088
00:51:20.579 --> 00:51:22.139
On your smartphone.

1089
00:51:22.199 --> 00:51:22.860
Correct.

1090
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:26.880
But I think the squash playing is absolutely pathetic.

1091
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:30.780
And with the Dr. Romana going across the screen, it just reminded

1092
00:51:30.780 --> 00:51:33.780
me that hideous lift back in underworld that just never worked.

1093
00:51:34.139 --> 00:51:36.059
It's a terrible shot.

1094
00:51:36.119 --> 00:51:39.599
I think everyone's arms and legs being pulled off looks stupid, you

1095
00:51:39.599 --> 00:51:41.639
know, your old Billy Loman.

1096
00:51:41.699 --> 00:51:45.059
Is it a Billy Loman who gets who gets cut up?

1097
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:49.139
And there's one scene too, when the Fomasia are burning their way

1098
00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:51.900
into the um, into the corridor.

1099
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:54.599
There's one thing which is a video still for a start.

1100
00:51:54.659 --> 00:51:57.179
It's not like, it's not like a shot.

1101
00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:58.500
It's a video still.

1102
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.619
And a green circle is forming to show where they're burning into

1103
00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:02.579
create a hole.

1104
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:06.300
But you can actually see someone pulling a piece of paper off.

1105
00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:11.159
Uh, you know, and that's how the uh, that's how the circle is

1106
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:11.460
closed.

1107
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:14.039
If you look at it, you can't unsee it. you watch it.

1108
00:52:14.099 --> 00:52:16.860
I've got to pulling a piece of paper off the thing.

1109
00:52:16.920 --> 00:52:20.579
So there are terrible terrible effects all the way through.

1110
00:52:20.699 --> 00:52:23.219
There's a there's that wonderful quantal effect.

1111
00:52:23.280 --> 00:52:25.920
They use sort of when they're zooming out of Brighton Beach to our

1112
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:29.880
goalus and on the commentary, love at Bigfoot says, you know, this

1113
00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:32.039
is what we were trying to do was this, but we couldn't.

1114
00:52:32.099 --> 00:52:35.460
And what it's meant to be is you're meant to zoom up and you're

1115
00:52:35.460 --> 00:52:39.059
meant to see Brighton, and then the British coastline and then the

1116
00:52:39.059 --> 00:52:42.360
British Isles, and then Europe, and then the Earth, and then keep

1117
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:43.019
zooming out.

1118
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:44.639
That's what it was meant to be.

1119
00:52:44.699 --> 00:52:48.960
And so I think it's very, it's wonderful that, you know, 11 years

1120
00:52:48.960 --> 00:52:54.360
ago now, the very 1st shot of Rose, we finally got that shot, you

1121
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:59.940
know, going, going down through space through the planet down to

1122
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:01.019
down to England.

1123
00:53:01.079 --> 00:53:04.679
That's the shot that the opening credits come back in.

1124
00:53:04.739 --> 00:53:05.699
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1125
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.039
And then, and then you get the sunburst, which is meant to be

1126
00:53:08.039 --> 00:53:09.659
going past Argolus's sun.

1127
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:12.719
And then to our But it's like, well, we don't have the budget for

1128
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:16.139
a planet model and we can't, we don't have Google Earth, whatever

1129
00:53:16.139 --> 00:53:16.800
that might be.

1130
00:53:16.860 --> 00:53:18.420
So we can't quite do that.

1131
00:53:18.480 --> 00:53:24.599
But it's still, instead of them becoming a very impressive literal

1132
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:25.559
special effect.

1133
00:53:25.619 --> 00:53:30.900
It's this wonderful representative thing which scared me as a kid

1134
00:53:30.900 --> 00:53:34.500
you know, the doctor, Dr. Romana going into space like this.

1135
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:38.460
Didn't scare me in the same way as Romana falling off the cliff in

1136
00:53:38.460 --> 00:53:41.340
Stones of Blood, which I mentioned, was one of my most terrifying

1137
00:53:41.340 --> 00:53:42.360
Doctor Who moments.

1138
00:53:42.420 --> 00:53:45.960
But to be honest, I didn't mention this earlier with the theme, but

1139
00:53:45.960 --> 00:53:47.760
this theme scared me as a kid.

1140
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:51.480
People report that the original theme used to scare them, you

1141
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:51.719
know.

1142
00:53:51.780 --> 00:53:55.079
As a kid, the heart law theme scared me a little because it was so

1143
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:57.599
sparse, but this one really terrified me.

1144
00:53:57.659 --> 00:53:59.639
It really blasts that at you.

1145
00:53:59.699 --> 00:54:01.500
I just love the way it starts.

1146
00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:04.559
Yeah, that's new, isn't it?

1147
00:54:04.619 --> 00:54:06.420
Like starting with a sting.

1148
00:54:06.539 --> 00:54:09.000
Like we talked about the introduction of the sting back in

1149
00:54:09.000 --> 00:54:12.539
ambassadors of death or something like that when it 1st occurs.

1150
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:15.840
But this is where the where it starts with a sting and that's

1151
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:17.159
something that doesn't go away either.

1152
00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:18.300
That's uh...

1153
00:54:18.360 --> 00:54:19.199
Yeah, yeah, we still got that.

1154
00:54:19.260 --> 00:54:22.260
I love the performance of Harriet Reynolds in this story.

1155
00:54:23.099 --> 00:54:25.320
Who is that you may ask?

1156
00:54:25.380 --> 00:54:25.800
Yes.

1157
00:54:25.920 --> 00:54:28.380
The voice of the tannery.

1158
00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:30.480
Oh, she's wonderful, isn't she?

1159
00:54:30.539 --> 00:54:34.380
I think the female turnover voice actually occurs a number of

1160
00:54:34.380 --> 00:54:36.360
times during the whole John Nathan Turner era.

1161
00:54:36.420 --> 00:54:39.420
It's not necessarily her, but it's something that instantly I just

1162
00:54:39.420 --> 00:54:42.300
kind of go, this is 1980, John Nathan Turner.

1163
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:44.880
Give it a Welsh accent and it's the RTD era.

1164
00:54:44.940 --> 00:54:50.099
You know, there's how heaps of female Tanoy voices in RTDs, Doctor

1165
00:54:50.099 --> 00:54:50.400
Who.

1166
00:54:50.460 --> 00:54:51.420
Sun filter?

1167
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:52.139
Descending.

1168
00:54:52.199 --> 00:54:55.260
Yes, I was thinking about that, you know, the quarantine thing

1169
00:54:55.260 --> 00:54:58.619
about Earth being quarantined, which is about by a Welsh computer

1170
00:54:58.619 --> 00:55:02.340
in Last of the Time Lords.

1171
00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:03.179
Is that what that's called?

1172
00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:04.559
Yeah.

1173
00:55:04.619 --> 00:55:07.920
So as you're saying, like, you know, this isn't perfect, but the

1174
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:12.539
intent is there and it looks generally, you know, wonderful

1175
00:55:12.539 --> 00:55:13.619
spectacular.

1176
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:17.400
You know, for me, I just go back to my figures and numbers.

1177
00:55:17.460 --> 00:55:19.739
You know, I give this personally, like a solid 8 out of 10.

1178
00:55:19.920 --> 00:55:21.059
Like, I enjoyed it.

1179
00:55:21.119 --> 00:55:22.980
I think it's a solid and it's a good step.

1180
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:24.119
Yeah.

1181
00:55:24.179 --> 00:55:28.440
I just think the visual thing is so striking and so wonderful that

1182
00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:31.440
this is one of my all-time favourites.

1183
00:55:31.500 --> 00:55:32.039
Yeah.

1184
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:36.420
I'd go as far to say that if by the end of watching this, you

1185
00:55:36.420 --> 00:55:37.980
haven't got a big smile on your face.

1186
00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:39.840
It's not Christopher H.

1187
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:41.159
Bidmead who's gotten rid of the phone.

1188
00:55:41.219 --> 00:55:41.579
It you.

1189
00:55:57.659 --> 00:56:01.920
Well, it's time to repair K9 as we leave Angolus.

1190
00:56:01.980 --> 00:56:06.000
We'll be back next week for the doppelganger story Megloss.

1191
00:56:06.059 --> 00:56:09.239
In the meantime, please find us online at flightsthroughentirety

1192
00:56:07.860 --> 00:56:11.940
com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE

1193
00:56:11.940 --> 00:56:13.019
podcast on Twitter.

1194
00:56:13.139 --> 00:56:16.860
Feel free to retweet, share, or review us.

1195
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:20.880
Don't forget about bond finger over at bondfinger.com, where we

1196
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:25.380
now have the 1st 7 James Bond films recorded as commentaries and

1197
00:56:25.380 --> 00:56:28.079
also the unofficial film Casino Royale.

1198
00:56:28.139 --> 00:56:31.019
You can also find that at Bondfinger Cast on Twitter and

1199
00:56:31.019 --> 00:56:33.719
Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes.

1200
00:56:33.780 --> 00:56:37.139
Until then, may none of your age or regressing machines actually

1201
00:56:37.139 --> 00:56:38.579
be video fakery.

1202
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:39.780
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1203
00:56:39.840 --> 00:56:40.500
Good night.

1204
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:41.340
See you soon.

1205
00:56:47.400 --> 00:56:51.599
That was Flight to Entirety with Todd B, Nathan Bottomley, and

1206
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:52.260
Brendan Jones.

1207
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:54.420
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1208
00:56:54.480 --> 00:56:59.099
This episode, Giant Squashy Bottoms, was recorded on the 20th of

1209
00:56:59.099 --> 00:56:59.940
February, 2016.

1210
00:57:00.179 --> 00:57:02.760
The next episode will be released on April 10th.

1211
00:57:02.820 --> 00:57:06.900
We dedicate this episode to the memory of Adrian Corey who played

1212
00:57:06.900 --> 00:57:08.099
Mina in the leisure hive.

1213
00:57:12.900 --> 00:57:16.739
It's the Peter Howell scores that always sound the best, just

1214
00:57:16.739 --> 00:57:18.000
because it's so seamless.

1215
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:20.280
How much does he do?

1216
00:57:20.340 --> 00:57:22.440
I know it's him and Patty Kingsland this year.

1217
00:57:22.500 --> 00:57:25.199
Yeah, it's him and Patty Kingsland.

1218
00:57:25.260 --> 00:57:30.000
So he does, he does the leisure hive, the big ones, he does the 5

1219
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:30.719
doctors.

1220
00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:33.840
Yeah, we should look it up.

1221
00:57:33.900 --> 00:57:35.219
Yeah, I'm gonna pause and look that up.