WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:11:12

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Welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety covering season three of

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Doctor Who, and we are the only Doctor Who podcasts who are

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actually trying to start a jumble sale instead of fighting the

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Daleks.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Richard.

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And you've come to an episode entirely devoted to Doctor Who's 2nd

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longest individual story.

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The Daleks master plan.

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So can we start having a fight about that before we fight about

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whether Katarine as a companion?

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No, we can't.

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Okay, sorry.

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Well, at 1st off, start, but it was never called the Dalek Master

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Plan, and it was never really seen as a full story except by the

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BBC.

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The viewers saw it as just an episodic thing that happened to have

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daleks in it week by week.

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Yeah, it's not...

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We didn't know, it saw keys of barrenness.

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And so, you know, for us.

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And this is, you know, something that people say all the time

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isn't it?

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that watching it as a series of movies, you know, like it's neatly

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packaged for you by BBC DVD or whatever.

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It comes in.

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Well, that'd be lovely.

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It came in a box with Dalek masterplan on the side and had all the

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episodes.

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But, you know, like we think of it as, and it's Dalek's master

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plan, according to the BBC website, I think, trying to train

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myself all the time.

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Daleks apostrophe, masterplan.

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Master plan being 2 words.

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I think that we should call it the Daleks apostrophe masterplan.

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Anyway.

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I just love how when we get towards the end of Pertwee, and they

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decided, let's do another 12 part dialect story, but let's do it

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at 6 parters, and let's involve Roger Delgado, that essentially

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that becomes the master's darling plan.

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Yes.

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We'll make that joke again in a couple of years.

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But so we never know when it's going to end.

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We don't know that it's a 12 part or anything like that.

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And, you know, Sandov has this sort of giant thing where he thinks

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it's, you know, 4 stories, some of which are inside other stories

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and stuff like that.

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But I just kind of like the idea that this is just taking it a

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slightly different way.

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And I kind of think it's a little bit like the way that Doctor Who

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eventually settles down in when Russell T. Davis brings it back.

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So you've got this kind of a bunch of stuff that happens over 12

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13 episodes with a framing story, do you know what I mean?

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and common things.

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And it is something that we've tried in Keys of Marinus and the

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Chase.

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And in fact, we called bits of this, the chase part 2, or I think

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when I did...

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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This should really be called the Kevin Stoney story.

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Stony Saga because what would it have been without him?

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Absolutely, absolutely.

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And we haven't even mentioned casual racism yet.

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Well, we will.

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We will.

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Yeah, the old story movie.

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What are we up to now?

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This is this is, though, a story that was absolutely mired in

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production drama.

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It's the last story which Ray Cusick worked on because he by the

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end of it, he was very unhappy with the way he was being treated

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with the way the design department were being treated.

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It was in great.

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Oh, yeah, his designs are beautiful.

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It's a wonderful swan song for him on Doctor Who.

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I mean, he did so much else afterwards, as opposed to some other

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people from this era, sadly.

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The story was commissioned by Verity Lambert, who sort of went, oh

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Daleks are so popular.

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Let's have 3 months of Daleks.

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And then sort of a lot of the pre-production work was done by

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Verity Lambert.

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It was Douglas Campfield was chosen as the director, of course, on

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the strength of the Crusade.

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Ray Cusick was Chosman's designer.

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So in that way, Verity, I think Verity made those choices.

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So she was setting it up to be as easy a production as it could

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be.

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But as Donald Tosh has put it in interviews, it was this giant

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rock in the middle of the road.

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And it just kind of becomes emblematic of the sort of, okay, roll

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up your sleeves, get on with an attitude of verity land, but

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compared to John Wiles completely wanting to cut and change to his

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own vision, which you can understand a new producer wanting to

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do.

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So it was a story that the production team didn't want to do for a

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start.

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And that apparently Terry Nation barely wrote.

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This is like the stories of his, um, you know, season one of Blake

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7 where, you know, by about episode 10, he's writing in sort of 3

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or 4 lines, you know, on the back of a napkin and handing them to

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Chris Boucher to turn into an episode.

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And clearly, you know, there's like about 4 episodes towards the

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end, like maybe, but you could just excise from the narrative

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couldn't you?

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And they don't make any difference and we're off to the oval and

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we're off to, you know, Hollywood for no particular reason.

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And in fact, for a very good reason, we'll get back to that.

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But so clearly, Terry Nation sort of underwrites things and is

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good with sort of guns and big concepts and stuff, but does

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actually need someone to turn it into a TV show.

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Yeah, I mean, the common consensus.

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You know, it ranges from Dennis Spooner, um, having written

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written literally half with Terry Nation.

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So it's half to a spoon, a half traination, to the other end of

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the spectrum, which is Donald Tosh saying, he got an envelope

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through his letterbox. was about 12 pages long and that was the 12

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episodes.

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I think the consensus in the middle is Terry Nation did write

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about 6 episodes. or 6 episodes worth of material, which was then

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extended by Dennis Spooner.

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Because all of the, yeah, but there's stuff that really reads, like

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Terry Nation and stuff that really reads, like, Dennis Spooner.

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You know what I mean?

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So like those...

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It's not a happy marriage.

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You don't think so?

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I actually think you're getting really lovely sparkly dialogue

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here. rolled and lies in in the 1st episode and they're doing that

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office banter around the desks.

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It's really what, when Blake 7 was at its best because it's

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cutting and pithy and antagonistic and...

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That was all Chris Boucher.

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I don't think that was Terry Nation.

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Oh, no, you reckon?

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Oh, maybe that was Spooner.

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Because when you look at Spooner's other shows, can I just segue

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here to my one of my all-time favourites, the champions?

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Maybe a link at the end.

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Champignon.

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Yeah, which is...

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It sounds like a great neighbor's show.

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Yeah, actually, we used to call it that as well. which is, you

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know, Alexandra Bastedo and William... and Stuart Damon as three.

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Kind of the Avengers meets a lovely, gentle, Agatha Christie kind

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of...

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With a bit of X-Men.

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Yeah, it was actually quite X-Men.

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They were mutants in a way. anyway, set in the late 60s.

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No, it's a really beautiful theme.

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It's really good to show you an episode after we're done.

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But Spooner's dialogue is really light and charming in that.

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I mean, his other shows, I mean, he's writing for the Avengers, I

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think, young Brendan might actually agree that the Avengers isn't

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a bad thing.

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No, I totally agree.

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It has some lovely moments.

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And we get later on, of course, in the story, we get Gene Marsh's

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M appeal and apotheosis, who we all assume watching the listening

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to this again that she was going to be the new companion.

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There's a lot to say.

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Can we talk about companions?

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All right.

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Look, let's let's start with this.

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Let's start.

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Let's start at the beginning because it's a very good place to

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start. you.

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Okay, uh, 1st episode.

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The nightmare begins.

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We do pick up from the end of, oh, yes, it does indeed.

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At that point, I would feel...

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Yeah, at that point, not drinking.

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Yeah, we need more shame to all of you at home.

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We have, we have, the nightmare begins, picks up from the end of

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uh, the mythmakers, where we left last week.

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Vicki has gone and has been replaced at the last moment by a

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character called Casherina, who played by.

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Patrick Hill.

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Stephen is very sick with blood poisoning because he's been

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stabbed.

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He actually doesn't know that Vicky's not there.

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Yeah, he thinks Katerina is Vicky while he's delirious, which is

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very sad.

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It's kind of like the rest of the viewing audience to sure that

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for half an episode, suddenly we're all meant to know who Katerina

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is and she's totally cool and welcome in the massage.

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We've never seen that.

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Shiruji.

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Suddenly everyone knew her all along.

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She's Mel's from let's kill Hitler.

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Yeah, we've all known this handmaiden for the last 3 episodes, but

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in fact, she's only appeared in 10 minutes.

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She's on Mogadon.

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Like, she is so...

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Like, her delight is slow.

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She's just, but she's old world.

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Look, you go anywhere on your holiday where they're very bucolic

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places, especially back in the 60s.

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People who have agrarian lives, who lived for simpler times, would

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have spoken a lot more slowly and thought...

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Except that no one else in that story too. like that.

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She's the only one who talks like that.

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Everyone else in the myth makers is sort of hilarious and bantry

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and sort of thing.

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And then she comes in and she's...

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She's a lower class character.

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She would not be as well educated as Cassandra.

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Oh, no, she's just.

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Can I just say I really like this character?

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when she 1st came in.

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I like her.

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I like that she sees the because, you know, anything tardacy for

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me is terribly exciting.

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Any new view of what the TARDIS is.

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She sees it as a temple and a gateway to other dimensions.

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She's the only one citing all just Huxley and Jim Morrison from

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the doors in some of her dialogue.

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She actually is referencing, okay.

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But in the 60s when Huxley and Jim Morrison were talking about the

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same kind of thing, when the duors of perception are open, we see

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onto eternity.

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And there's a lot of Lewis Carroll in that as well.

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I see her as the Alice character, as the Lewis Carroll's Alice

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character, dropped down the rabbit hole in something entirely

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new.

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And I love, just as I love the Jamie character, spoiler alert

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coming up in later seasons.

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Someone taken, for goodness sake, he says in desperation.

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This is a show about time and space.

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Why does everyone have to be contemporary?

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That's kind of what annoyed me about the Vicky character?

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Much as I love Maureen O'Brien.

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Because he was so contemporary.

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I'm going to spend this season pining for a contemporary human

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being on the TARDIS and Dodo really doesn't care.

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Well, I was just going to say, you are catered.

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No, I really not.

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But she, I mean, the character is, it's just stupid, I think.

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She's slow talking.

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She's not rising.

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Like, really, yeah.

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Spoiler alert, she gets flushed out an airlock quite soon.

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And thank goodness.

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The most horrific moment in the history, this program up until the

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present time, you should mention that.

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Yeah, yeah.

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The thing is, those first... those 1st 4 episodes.

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And this is the thing I really like about Katerina is straight

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away from the beginning, we have a very uncomfortable opening.

252
00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.200
The safety, what little safety we had, because in a Barbara

253
00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.740
leaving was the beginning of the safe family unit falling apart.

254
00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:22.679
And now Vicki has gone very suddenly and the doctor's distracted

255
00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:24.059
by that, Stephen's dying.

256
00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.379
Doctor's left with Katerina, who does have a certain amount of

257
00:11:28.379 --> 00:11:30.899
intelligence, she tries to understand what's going on around it

258
00:11:30.899 --> 00:11:33.120
but of course the doctor can't talk to her, so has to leave her

259
00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:37.559
alone, and that discomfort comes to a head when she is killed.

260
00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:42.179
And not just kill, when she sacrifices herself because even the

261
00:11:42.179 --> 00:11:44.340
doctor says at that point, she couldn't understand, but no, she

262
00:11:44.340 --> 00:11:44.879
understood.

263
00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:46.740
She understood that she would die.

264
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:49.440
She understood that was the control for the dog because she'd been

265
00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:53.820
shown and she understood if I press this, he will die as well.

266
00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.440
She sacrifices herself knowingly.

267
00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:57.600
She's already passed on.

268
00:11:57.659 --> 00:11:59.460
Yeah, that's so lovely.

269
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:01.440
But she sees this is the waiting area.

270
00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:02.039
Hades.

271
00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:03.360
It's not the higher level.

272
00:12:03.419 --> 00:12:05.519
I think they she says limbo, doesn't she?

273
00:12:05.580 --> 00:12:07.139
Yeah, that's why I think it's so interesting.

274
00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.659
We got a whole other perspective in what the TARDIS is.

275
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:11.100
Who's not to say she's right?

276
00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:14.340
Who's not to say passing through the portals of the Tardis takes

277
00:12:14.340 --> 00:12:17.460
us into a dimension that is more like being passed on?

278
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.820
I love it when they throw us new ideas of what the tide is.

279
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.580
But let's talk about what's entertaining on television for a

280
00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:23.879
little while.

281
00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:26.039
I just can't imagine.

282
00:12:26.100 --> 00:12:30.120
Like when they bring her in, they already know she's going.

283
00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:31.559
I've heard that she's shot.

284
00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.399
She'll leave her death scene even before she appears.

285
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.259
That's true because it was pre-filmed.

286
00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:42.779
So the actor, she's only like, she's only in it for 4 episodes.

287
00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:44.700
No, that puts a whole other complexion on it.

288
00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:46.200
Because that even more poignant?

289
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:49.259
Just someone slow talking who can barely understand what's going

290
00:12:49.259 --> 00:12:49.620
on.

291
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:50.700
Do you know what I mean?

292
00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.159
Like who is clearly on huge doses of Mogadon, you know, throughout

293
00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:56.700
the production.

294
00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:58.019
Well, metaphorically.

295
00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:59.759
How would you address a god?

296
00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:02.460
Well, I just wouldn't put that character in the show.

297
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.299
I just put that character in the show because I just think she

298
00:13:06.299 --> 00:13:06.840
would be boring.

299
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:12.419
And I guess... tolerate her for 4 episodes, but she's replaced by

300
00:13:12.419 --> 00:13:14.940
someone in a sort of slinky cat suit with a big gun.

301
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.120
And you've got to confess that that is a pretty significant

302
00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:18.659
improvement.

303
00:13:18.659 --> 00:13:23.100
It must be my my 2nd favourite thing. 1st favourite thing.

304
00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:24.899
So yeah, Gene Marsh, can you imagine?

305
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.100
Yeah, I know who March.

306
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.419
Sarah Kingdom is unquestionably a more interesting character and a

307
00:13:30.419 --> 00:13:36.179
more complex and narratively better character.

308
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.240
Look what she does just in the space of this story, going from

309
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:46.139
supreme ultra Vixenex space aviatrix, extraordinary cold-hearted

310
00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:49.019
killer to bestie of Billy.

311
00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.960
Yeah, yeah, trying to save...

312
00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:55.500
Okay, quick succession.

313
00:13:55.559 --> 00:14:01.080
So, I think we've put forward our defences or detractions of

314
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:02.820
Catarina.

315
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.539
So, okay.

316
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.139
I just want a yes or no in terms of this.

317
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.480
Right, gentlemen, catarina companion.

318
00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:09.960
Yes, sir.

319
00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:10.860
Delightful, absolutely.

320
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:11.820
No.

321
00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.379
Yes, from me?

322
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:15.960
It's less time than Sarah Kingdom and Sarah Kingdom is not meant

323
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:16.679
to be a computer.

324
00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:17.460
Not what she does.

325
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.759
Look at the love she brings to the cast and what she does to...

326
00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:23.279
We wouldn't have a Doctor Who show if she hadn't chucked herself

327
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:23.759
out the door.

328
00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:26.220
So next the doctor would be dead.

329
00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:28.200
Next you have to stop making it.

330
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:29.279
Next question.

331
00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:31.919
Next question on the same line.

332
00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.320
Sarah Kingdom. companion or not?

333
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:36.179
Yes.

334
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:36.539
Okay.

335
00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:40.379
So, I used for that because she's so modern.

336
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.340
She is fabulous.

337
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.139
What about Brett violently, modern.

338
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:44.340
Well, isn't that interesting?

339
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:47.460
Everyone talks about this is the show that premiere is...

340
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.740
And how hot is Nick Courtney?

341
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:50.639
He's very beautiful.

342
00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:52.080
As this.

343
00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:53.220
He's a matinee idol.

344
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.559
I'm a novello of the 60s.

345
00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:59.940
He's that lovely 1920s matinee idol when the term was coined.

346
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.500
He's actually got pretty much as much screen time as Katerina, and

347
00:15:04.500 --> 00:15:06.720
yet he gets a lot more attention in this as the scene as the

348
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:07.500
introductory thing.

349
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:08.279
And he's really good.

350
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:09.600
I mean he's fantastic.

351
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:10.559
Fantastic.

352
00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:13.980
But he's it's a very small part of them of the...

353
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:14.820
How many Dizzy-Doies?

354
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:16.500
Like in 3 episodes.

355
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:19.679
No, he's in he's in the 1st 4 episodes because he's killed at the

356
00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:21.059
end of episode four.

357
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.759
Whereas Katerina is killed partway through episode four.

358
00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:27.059
Yeah, so he gets about the same screen time as Cate, you know.

359
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:28.799
But he has a great deal of power on the screen.

360
00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:32.519
He's the 1st man in the history of Bill's time, if not talk to

361
00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:34.860
whoever to tell the doctor to shut up.

362
00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:39.659
Yeah, we can pull a gun. listeners have probably said to this

363
00:15:39.659 --> 00:15:40.080
podcast.

364
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:44.399
Sorry, I cut you off.

365
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:45.059
Well, no, no, no.

366
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:45.899
He comes in with a gun.

367
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.379
He really takes control and this is where...

368
00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:50.399
Yeah, he does, doesn't he?

369
00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:52.200
Yeah, this is another thing about this story.

370
00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:53.639
Guns win over brain.

371
00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:54.779
Yeah, well, it's terry.

372
00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:59.580
Well, the thing is, the doctor does get the best over Brett, in

373
00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:01.500
that situation, he traps him in a chair.

374
00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:02.700
No, shut up.

375
00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.679
Yeah, well yeah.

376
00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:08.039
First of all, you know, you know, at the beginning of the scene

377
00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:09.779
Brett Pynes says to the doctor, shut up.

378
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.240
And the doctor does shut up while Brett talks and then finally

379
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:13.799
turns around and says, nails it.

380
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:16.860
Actually, we've got to stop the Dalek, so you shut up.

381
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:21.360
And of course, when Brett does take control of the TARDIS, it's a

382
00:16:21.360 --> 00:16:24.179
bit like that quotation that Stephen Moffat's been putting out

383
00:16:24.179 --> 00:16:26.940
there recently, which is, you know, the doctor doesn't have

384
00:16:26.940 --> 00:16:28.559
superpowers.

385
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:29.639
He has a screwdriver.

386
00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:32.159
The doctor doesn't have...

387
00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:33.299
Wasn't this a group?

388
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:35.100
There's so many things to love about the heart or era.

389
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:36.299
No screwdriver.

390
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:37.080
Yeah.

391
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.639
The doctor doesn't have a fast car.

392
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.700
He has a box which has written on the front.

393
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.440
Please call me for help.

394
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:49.259
So, you know, the doctor, when faced by a gun, uses a magnetic

395
00:16:49.259 --> 00:16:49.980
chair.

396
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.539
And unlike in the Romans, he doesn't hit someone overhead with

397
00:16:54.539 --> 00:16:54.720
it.

398
00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:56.700
And it is magnetic, isn't it?

399
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:57.960
It's a magic magnet.

400
00:16:58.019 --> 00:16:59.159
And it lands in the right place.

401
00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:02.639
So I still have this feeling that this is the kind of story that

402
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.079
he's completely unsuited to.

403
00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:07.200
And, and...

404
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.500
The Doctor Who doctor is unsuited to because World story where the

405
00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:12.299
guns, where it's all about guns.

406
00:17:12.299 --> 00:17:14.640
And it's a sort of, you know, Terry Nation.

407
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.880
And this will come up in Blake 7 as well.

408
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:22.140
Terry Nation constantly tries to aim at sort of tough and gritty

409
00:17:22.140 --> 00:17:26.819
and stuff like horrible Jenny in Dalek Invasion of Earth with her

410
00:17:26.819 --> 00:17:29.460
world weary cynicism and stuff.

411
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:32.160
And he wants to do all of that sort of stuff.

412
00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:35.339
But he kind of swings and misses and always just sort of

413
00:17:35.339 --> 00:17:38.880
accidentally lands in camp, you know, like and...

414
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:41.220
We are. you know, Blake 7 came up.

415
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:46.680
So, so with this, everyone's sort of, everyone's running around

416
00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:50.160
with guns and posturing and sort of being macho and the doctor

417
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:52.319
doesn't really have a role in a story like this.

418
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.660
The doctor's just constantly on the rum.

419
00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:57.900
Yeah, it might be important to note that Bill Hartle agreed with

420
00:17:57.900 --> 00:18:00.599
you and he was it was really at loggerheads with him that this is

421
00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.359
not Doctor Who and the kids are going to be, this is not the show

422
00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:04.380
we're supposed to be making.

423
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:08.880
Yeah, it's not, you know, visiting strange new places and it's the

424
00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:10.559
doctors dropped in a space opera.

425
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:11.759
And, you know, we have done that before.

426
00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:14.700
The doctors dropped in the earlier, the doctors dropped in in

427
00:18:14.700 --> 00:18:16.019
ancient Rome.

428
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:17.640
We're going to see the doctor dropped in a western.

429
00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:20.339
You know, like it is sort of something we've done before.

430
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:24.000
But because it's because this is a space opera, because Doctor Who

431
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.299
is sort of science fiction, it kind of skews the story a little

432
00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:27.539
bit.

433
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:29.400
I really love that it does though.

434
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:31.619
It really is one of my all time favourites.

435
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:34.559
And as I say, I only know it through audio and the brilliant

436
00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:38.339
Rosemary Howe novelisation of the late 70s, which is from the

437
00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:39.720
Australian Doctor Who fan club.

438
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:40.500
Oh, that's right.

439
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:43.680
And she was the 1st one to write this out just from screen notes

440
00:18:43.680 --> 00:18:46.799
and other fans, other people around the world have said, she's

441
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:47.279
still alive.

442
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:50.640
She's still with us, Tony Hall's mum. did a beautiful piece of

443
00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:53.519
writing and it really leaves the John Peel one where it should be

444
00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:54.839
which is the back of the bookshelf.

445
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:55.200
Sorry.

446
00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:56.940
But it's yeah, it's pretty awful.

447
00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:59.880
But yeah, Rosemary Howe's novelisation of this is the 1st time I

448
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.000
ever came across it and I just loved this story because of her

449
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:03.539
writing.

450
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:08.279
And then hearing the audio, it just, it just impacted on that even

451
00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:08.759
further.

452
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:12.960
The audio, the BBC audio, I should say, did you say, Nathan, that

453
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:13.500
that's available?

454
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:16.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and you can buy it on audible and stuff.

455
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:17.880
It's so worthless.

456
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:18.660
It's really great.

457
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.000
It really is a lovely piece and you don't lose anything not having

458
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:21.599
the visuals.

459
00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:22.380
Oh, really?

460
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:23.819
Oh, that's absolutely not true.

461
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.160
I see Doctor Who has 2 things and all a radio...

462
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.259
Okay, yes, you're right, because this is, we haven't mentioned who

463
00:19:28.259 --> 00:19:28.920
directed this.

464
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:29.519
No, we have.

465
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.559
It's Dougie Campfield, and it's spectacular.

466
00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:32.400
And he can do no wrong.

467
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:33.660
Yeah, it's just great.

468
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.799
So we've got 2 5 and 10. 25 and 10 of the existing episodes.

469
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.200
There are clips from one that exist.

470
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.799
And there's that long clip from episode four.

471
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:45.000
So spaceship screen.

472
00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:47.880
Yeah, there's lots of the model shots still exist.

473
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:49.140
Really great.

474
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:51.960
The long clip from episode 4 that you were referring to earlier

475
00:19:51.960 --> 00:19:53.700
leading up to Katerina's death.

476
00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:57.599
We don't actually have her floating in space, but we have we have

477
00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.960
the 2 or 3 minutes leading up to it, which I believe we used on

478
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:01.200
they did.

479
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:02.400
They actually shot.

480
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.980
You know, you know that...

481
00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:05.940
You know the bits in it.

482
00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:10.019
You know bits in episode 5 with the with the teleporter sequence

483
00:20:10.019 --> 00:20:15.059
and Sarah and Stephen jumping up and down on trampolines.

484
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.519
It's Adrian Hill jumping up and down on a trampoline.

485
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:23.099
Before we've even, we get to the mice and Douglas Adams.

486
00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.259
Can I just take a moment for us all?

487
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:28.920
Do you know who was meant to be in that airlock and sucked out

488
00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:29.519
into space?

489
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:30.420
Oh, yeah.

490
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:31.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

491
00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:37.319
That was Maureen O'Brien's departure as organised and written in

492
00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:38.759
notes by John Wiles.

493
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:41.759
That's what he wanted to do to her, for complaining about her

494
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:43.200
writing in galaxy.

495
00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:44.700
Sand for mentions that as well.

496
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:45.240
Does he?

497
00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:49.259
I've seen that in liner notes from naughty fan history that we're

498
00:20:49.259 --> 00:20:50.039
not supposed to be seeing.

499
00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:54.900
I've got that from early 80s liner notes from friends in GW from

500
00:20:54.900 --> 00:20:55.859
the club in England.

501
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.240
So that's been known for a long time.

502
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.079
Goodness.

503
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.059
And Maureen has been such a diplomat.

504
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:00.720
Never, never.

505
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:01.920
I didn't know if she knew at the time.

506
00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:04.500
What does that say?

507
00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:08.460
For a children's document, for, you know, a drama, family drama

508
00:21:08.460 --> 00:21:12.059
with a character that was so integral to the part to do that to

509
00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:12.299
her.

510
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.180
I think can I get all political?

511
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:15.779
Yes, please.

512
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:19.319
Because I think that, and this is a sort of standard thing as well

513
00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:23.460
but you've had a character who represents modern youth, who has

514
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:27.359
fermented revolution, and the 1st she's going to be flung out the

515
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:30.839
airlock, and then we're going to proceed headlong into a series of

516
00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:34.319
sort of racist and, you know, barely defensible stories.

517
00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:38.519
I'm gonna, you know, nail my trousers to the master at this very

518
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:38.819
moment.

519
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.779
I think I think it would have been just nasty and mean-spirited.

520
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:47.700
Then I also think that there is a problem in tone with Dialect

521
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:50.460
master plan that it is too nasty.

522
00:21:50.519 --> 00:21:55.019
And particularly that, you know, that stupid planet, desperous, and

523
00:21:55.019 --> 00:21:58.259
Kirksen, and all of that sort of thing, that is really horrible

524
00:21:58.259 --> 00:22:00.539
and flushing around the airlock.

525
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:04.380
And, you know, like eventually the things that happen to Sarah and

526
00:22:04.380 --> 00:22:05.460
all of that and we'll get there.

527
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:09.720
Like, I just think I just think it's getting too nasty for Doctor

528
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:10.200
Who.

529
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:15.539
And coming off, um, a story where all of the comedy characters

530
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:18.420
have been brutally slaughtered in episode four.

531
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:19.559
Do you know what I mean?

532
00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:22.319
Like, and, you know, we're about to have the massacre.

533
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.680
Yeah, we're about to have Peter Capaldi.

534
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.140
We're recording this early August 2014.

535
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:33.000
Now, we already know, Mr. Capaldi himself has said, I don't want

536
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:35.400
the doctor to be anything you've seen in recent times.

537
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.039
And we've seen already some clips.

538
00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:40.079
We're heading up to a much darker season.

539
00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:42.299
What's your take on how dark Doctor Who should actually be?

540
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.279
I don't think it will get as dark as this.

541
00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:44.880
Really?

542
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.240
Yeah.

543
00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:47.759
Because I have to say, even though all of the things I've said

544
00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.160
about certainly the way that the female characters are treated in

545
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.759
this makes me want to smack the table, this is, I love that it

546
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:54.599
gets this dark.

547
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:58.380
And I because I love Blake 7 and I love when Terry Nation gets

548
00:22:58.380 --> 00:22:59.220
really...

549
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:00.720
But I don't think Blake 7 gets dark.

550
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:04.319
I think Blake 7 is sort of undermined. 1st episode, he's tried for

551
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:05.759
child abuse.

552
00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:06.000
Exactly.

553
00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:08.460
But the whole thing is sort of sort of camped and stupider.

554
00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:09.960
You can't really take it.

555
00:23:10.019 --> 00:23:10.619
No I suppose.

556
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:13.559
But I'm very glad that you mentioned female characters because

557
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:15.119
that's something I wanted to point out in this.

558
00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:18.359
Galaxy 4, obviously you have very strong female characters.

559
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:21.059
Not necessarily very well drawn and complex.

560
00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:26.220
Marga's quite complex, but only complex compared to her drones who

561
00:23:26.220 --> 00:23:28.079
are by definition very simple characters.

562
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:30.720
It would have been appalling had they been anything other than

563
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:32.279
horribly blonde.

564
00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:33.000
Yes.

565
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.160
Scan Norwegian.

566
00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:37.799
Yeah, because that's really...

567
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:41.339
Mission to the unknown, no female characters at all.

568
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:42.960
And everyone gets killed.

569
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:44.220
And everyone gets horribly killed.

570
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.619
Yeah, well, with no women about, everyone gets killed.

571
00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.539
That's interesting.

572
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:50.700
Myth makers.

573
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.579
Arguably, the villain is female.

574
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.819
Cassandra, I suppose, is very well played.

575
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.279
Yeah, is actually the most volatile.

576
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:00.420
Really a proper villain.

577
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.380
And hang on.

578
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:02.700
She's killed the spy.

579
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:05.759
And then the next, the end of episode 3 or is it, is it episode 3

580
00:24:05.759 --> 00:24:07.200
when you get the time coming up.

581
00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:09.480
She's saying, kill Vicky, take kill Chris.

582
00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:12.420
Death of a spy comes up. who gets killed instead?

583
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.640
Tilt a man.

584
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.460
With an eye batch.

585
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:21.180
You know, she's...

586
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.640
She's as much of a villain as anyone is a villain.

587
00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.619
Yeah, he's actually pavilion historical.

588
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:28.380
So he's turned around and she becomes... isn't she amazing?

589
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.359
And then we get...

590
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:33.180
John, we get...

591
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.119
And then we get John Wiles in full control.

592
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:41.400
And aside from the companion characters, let's just say companion

593
00:24:41.400 --> 00:24:44.279
characters, because that does encompass Katerina, she plays the

594
00:24:44.279 --> 00:24:48.119
function of a companion, whether she's... companionoids.

595
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:50.819
We've got Lizan as a female character.

596
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.880
We have Blossom Lefevre later on in the story.

597
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:55.200
But why?

598
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:55.859
Who's she?

599
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.400
That's about it.

600
00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:57.000
Will will get there.

601
00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:57.539
Oh, okay.

602
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.039
But that's about it.

603
00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:03.539
You know, we don't have major female guest characters in this

604
00:25:03.539 --> 00:25:04.079
story.

605
00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:05.759
All the important goals.

606
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:07.440
We don't know, man, the gender of the mice.

607
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:11.160
We don't know the gender of the mice or indeed the gender of the

608
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:13.319
delegates.

609
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:15.539
Doesn't it make style?

610
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:16.500
They're all female.

611
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.599
Doesn't make style...

612
00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:21.420
Doesn't it make Star Wars 2 attack of the clones look even pancier

613
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:22.319
than it actually is?

614
00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:23.339
This is a much better.

615
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:26.279
If you haven't watched, list, D listener, if you haven't watched

616
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:28.500
Day of Armageddon, it's on YouTube.

617
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:29.339
This is episode two.

618
00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:30.779
It's also in Lost in Time.

619
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:31.019
Yeah.

620
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. episode 2 of the Daleks Master Plan.

621
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.259
Just honestly, I'm sorry, Mr. Lucas, this is actually a lot

622
00:25:37.259 --> 00:25:37.500
better.

623
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:39.420
It's so funny.

624
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.480
Like everyone's doing their most bizarre alien voice.

625
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:43.380
Gorgeous.

626
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:44.339
It's just gorgeous.

627
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:46.859
And they all have different, they all have different body

628
00:25:46.859 --> 00:25:49.859
languages, different ways of walking and different responses to

629
00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:50.279
gravity.

630
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:50.940
Yeah.

631
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:54.539
And that wonderful sort of cone head one.

632
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.039
I love the coding one.

633
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:56.940
Where's the cone head?

634
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:02.519
I don't know, but when that cone head runs off, when the alarm

635
00:26:02.519 --> 00:26:05.940
goes off, the cone head one is going...

636
00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:07.559
Oh, he's really funny.

637
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:09.539
That is your big tone.

638
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.000
Like a like a triangle iron.

639
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:13.259
It's really weird.

640
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:16.259
But there is that the thing in about time that which sodding

641
00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:17.039
delegate was which.

642
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:20.099
Because it just seems that the production team have kind of lost

643
00:26:20.099 --> 00:26:21.000
track of who.

644
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:22.680
They didn't really know either.

645
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:25.980
Yeah, yeah. apparently the ones who were labelled in certain names

646
00:26:25.980 --> 00:26:28.920
in Mission to the Unknown are labelled as different names.

647
00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:31.440
But I mean, essentially, Alfred is still the one with Eczema, I

648
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:31.680
believe.

649
00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:34.559
And that you've got Malpha and Zephon and Trance are the only ones

650
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:35.579
that really matter, aren't they?

651
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.259
Yeah, well, Trantis is...

652
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:37.799
He comes up later.

653
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.059
Is he the bunch of kale?

654
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:40.380
No, he...

655
00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:41.759
No, no, I think...

656
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.279
Zep, Zep, Zep, Zep.

657
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.640
Trantos is the minor from the Green Death.

658
00:26:48.059 --> 00:26:49.019
With the pointy did.

659
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:54.119
If it is so round, why was not one of us asked to provide it?

660
00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:55.680
That's him.

661
00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:59.460
And then Chantis is the one who's white with balls all over him.

662
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:00.539
No, no, no.

663
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.619
Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, the scale.

664
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:06.839
So who's the one who's the one with salation?

665
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.119
It's the one with balls.

666
00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:10.380
Salation is covered in balls.

667
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:14.700
And is the time destructure on the test, the time destructure on

668
00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:15.059
isolation.

669
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:17.339
So, okay, so we know who Malfa is.

670
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:18.240
We know who Trent is.

671
00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:19.079
We know who Zephon is.

672
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:20.099
We know who salation is.

673
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.279
It's a rich cast of characters, isn't it?

674
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:23.880
That's not bad.

675
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:25.380
No, that's right.

676
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:27.480
But I'd love to know who the cone head guy is.

677
00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:29.640
Yeah, well, we've got the cone head guy.

678
00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:34.799
And we've got the sort of the sort of concertina fold guy.

679
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:37.019
The black concertina fold.

680
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:39.000
No, that's who I mean by the kind of head.

681
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:43.019
No, I mean Conehead, as in like Jane Curtain, Dan Ackroyd

682
00:27:43.019 --> 00:27:43.559
Conehead.

683
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:43.920
Oh, really?

684
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.539
Yeah, she's got a big domey thing.

685
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:46.680
Yeah.

686
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:48.539
I mean, yeah, she does look feminine.

687
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:49.859
No, so Concertina guy.

688
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:53.700
He's my favourite one But getting back to the whole female

689
00:27:53.700 --> 00:27:54.420
question.

690
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.500
The roles for women later on, as this series goes on, diminished

691
00:27:58.500 --> 00:27:58.859
terribly.

692
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:00.779
Pointy teeth is Roy Evans, isn't he?

693
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:02.519
He's the minor in the green.

694
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:03.480
Yeah, no, that's what it is.

695
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:04.680
Were you here?

696
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.119
Oh, yeah, winner.

697
00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:07.140
I'll get there.

698
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:08.220
I couldn't remember.

699
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.420
He's go to Welsh dude.

700
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:16.079
We're not quite in a chrotic history since, you know, Christopher

701
00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:18.359
Bidme is probably watching this at home going, well, that's just

702
00:28:18.359 --> 00:28:19.559
not scientifically accurate.

703
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:23.880
I just have to, I do have to say, I adore Christopher Bid Mead, and

704
00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:26.400
when we get to season 18, I have a Christopher Bid Mead story.

705
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:27.119
Oh, do you?

706
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:27.900
I do indeed.

707
00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:32.819
But I do agree with you that Doctor Who gets really nasty this

708
00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:35.700
year and I have a hard time watching Doctor Who this year for the

709
00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:40.019
same reason that as well written as the scripts are towards the

710
00:28:40.019 --> 00:28:41.039
end of Peter Davidson.

711
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:43.680
I have a very hard time with them because that's another time that

712
00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:48.359
Doctor Who gets very, very dark and it's just the sort of attitude

713
00:28:48.359 --> 00:28:51.420
of bad things happen and the doctor can't always sort them out.

714
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:55.980
And that's very much the thing here of, it gets to the point where

715
00:28:55.980 --> 00:28:59.579
the doctor's like, I, you know, I can't sort this out here.

716
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:01.799
I need to nick this spaceship and I need to go somewhere else.

717
00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:04.200
And oh, right, now we can get back into the TARDIS.

718
00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:06.119
I need to go into the Tartars and we just have to run.

719
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:09.839
And people, you know, people get hideously killed along the way

720
00:29:09.900 --> 00:29:15.180
considering the Egypt episodes, where, you know, all these...

721
00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:15.960
Gosh, this is...

722
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:17.579
Pyramid builder slaves.

723
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:21.599
There's so much a story of its time with, again, the Gaza problem

724
00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:25.259
that we're seeing right now being reflected in the story, but the

725
00:29:25.259 --> 00:29:29.220
whole terrainian Corbit being, you know, the uranium 238, I

726
00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:29.819
believe it was.

727
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:35.759
And all of that height singers, um, So it is a kind of nuclear

728
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:36.660
thing, isn't it?

729
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.220
It is a nuclear thing.

730
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:39.180
It's got a core.

731
00:29:39.299 --> 00:29:42.480
Yeah, it's got a name that sounds like a cross between Terry

732
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.000
Nation and uranium, right?

733
00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:46.500
So it's called terranium.

734
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:50.460
And originally viterranium, but apparently changed because Billy

735
00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:51.059
couldn't say it.

736
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:52.019
Oh, really?

737
00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:53.700
Sarah Kingdom terry nation.

738
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:54.720
Are you hearing?

739
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:57.660
Yeah, everyone's called Tariff. to throw in and say, did you know

740
00:29:57.660 --> 00:29:59.759
Terry Nation objected to the killing off of the character?

741
00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:02.700
He actually wanted her to stay as a companion and wrote it as

742
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:02.940
such.

743
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:05.460
And it was wild, who just loves killing off women.

744
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:06.299
Oh, did I say that?

745
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:07.799
seems to be the way.

746
00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:10.680
Well, no, no, she was killing off strong and interesting women.

747
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:12.720
And Adrian Hill.

748
00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:15.240
The Dalek Art of Space, stop it.

749
00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:18.420
The Dalek Art of Spacebook, his premise for his new show, The

750
00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:22.319
Disruptors, has Sarah in it with a new brother, this time called

751
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:22.920
David.

752
00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:25.619
But the, yeah, he, he, he, the vision was.

753
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:28.920
Sarah would be an ongoing character, as far as the script writer.

754
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:29.579
Yeah, yeah.

755
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:33.599
And of course, originally in Terry Nations script, Brett Vine

756
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.380
wasn't Sarah's brother, he was her boyfriend.

757
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.519
Oh, you won't have boyfriends in Doctor Who.

758
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.859
Well, I think I think the actual show, isn't it?

759
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.500
I think the actual language in the script, because Terry thought

760
00:30:46.500 --> 00:30:50.579
you know, this is one. 5 no, this is 2000 years in the future.

761
00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:54.420
The original language you used in the script in episode five, Sarah

762
00:30:54.420 --> 00:30:56.279
says, Brett Bayern was my lover.

763
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.700
Yeah, that actually would have been a lot more interesting.

764
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.440
Yeah, and that's why they have different surnames.

765
00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:05.519
No, and I have a different surname from my sister as well.

766
00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:07.980
Oh, well, because she got married.

767
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.059
Oh, yes.

768
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:11.880
That's true.

769
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:13.440
But there's there's no...

770
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:15.180
So maybe there's a mystic kingdom somewhere.

771
00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:17.880
He's probably a milkman or something.

772
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:19.920
Zookeeper.

773
00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:25.500
A bit like Fargo where the detective's husband paints stamps.

774
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:26.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

775
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:28.799
And so she goes off a hard day being a sort of space security

776
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:32.220
agent and gunning people down and then comes into bed and they

777
00:31:32.220 --> 00:31:32.940
talk about their day.

778
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.259
And he's had a terrible day.

779
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.859
He gave someone 2 Greek yoghurts when it was meant to be too

780
00:31:37.859 --> 00:31:38.640
regular yoghurt.

781
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:42.480
This is this is the story where, and the reason I think it works

782
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:46.079
is that you get these chiara scuro contrasts.

783
00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:49.319
It's a really high Renaissance painting of the, or actually, it's

784
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:53.640
like a Goya painting, actually, of the really savage depiction of

785
00:31:53.640 --> 00:31:56.700
drama and the goodness of people that comes out in that.

786
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:01.680
This is probably some of Billy's finest moments in this in self

787
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:01.680
sacrifice.

788
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:05.400
And this is also the story where he says, quote, I am a citizen of

789
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.680
the universe and a gentleman to boot.

790
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:11.759
And yeah, there's some really lovely moments for the definition of

791
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:15.059
the character of the doctor in this. despite, or maybe because of

792
00:32:15.059 --> 00:32:17.039
the horrible things that are going on around him.

793
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:23.640
Yeah, I mean, it does, I mean, it sort of cast simmers, you know

794
00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:26.759
he'll eventually become the hero of these sort of space adventures

795
00:32:26.759 --> 00:32:29.339
you know, and like in the 70s, we'll always be landing on

796
00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:32.039
spaceships and there'll be ray guns and then the doctor will be

797
00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:32.400
the hero.

798
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:34.920
Do you not think this is a story where...

799
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:36.660
Yes, this is the story where it starts to happen.

800
00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:38.880
It's really bad at it in this story.

801
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:39.779
Yeah, he's uncomfortable.

802
00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:41.160
That's what I like.

803
00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:43.380
He's blocking his way through and he gets it wrong.

804
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.720
It's desperate and it's desperation, I suppose.

805
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.980
I suppose that's good in a way.

806
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.160
But at the end when he goes such a terrible waste.

807
00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:54.299
Well, I suppose, I suppose in a way, you have to say that, yeah

808
00:32:54.299 --> 00:32:57.900
this story does succeed because you feel so much of the death and

809
00:32:57.900 --> 00:32:59.099
the destruction in it.

810
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:02.640
You have an emotional resonance with it, which, to be fair, you

811
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:05.339
don't often say about a Terry Nation script.

812
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.039
You know, people don't usually use the words tearing nation and

813
00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:09.299
emotional resonance together.

814
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.859
But it does happen here.

815
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:13.980
As we've just touched on, a lot of the stuff may not have actually

816
00:33:13.980 --> 00:33:16.559
been nationed, but Miles and Spooner and Josh.

817
00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:20.819
So we wander away from that whole Terry Nation script for a while

818
00:33:20.819 --> 00:33:22.619
and we do get a little bit of a relief.

819
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:26.099
But as you pointed out, like we go to ancient Egypt for 2 episodes

820
00:33:26.099 --> 00:33:27.960
and there's a lot of killing and stuff like that.

821
00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:29.519
But we do have Peter Butterworth.

822
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:30.900
We get the meddling mob.

823
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:31.619
We get the money back.

824
00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:33.059
And that's really terrific.

825
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:36.480
And there's that superb cliffhanger, which has got to be Spooner.

826
00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:40.799
You know, the mummy... comes out of the theme.

827
00:33:41.039 --> 00:33:46.619
And it turns out that it's, it's, it's the monk, that the doctor

828
00:33:46.619 --> 00:33:50.160
has beaten up and wrapped in, in sort of bandages and shelved in a

829
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:53.519
sarcophagus and all of that stuff's terribly funny and terribly

830
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:55.920
light and you get, you get the doctor fiddling with the monks

831
00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.920
TARDIS and turning it into like a motorcycle and various other

832
00:33:58.920 --> 00:34:00.000
things. block of ice.

833
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.279
Yeah, all of that stuff's really fun.

834
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.079
And then he steals the directional thing.

835
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:06.420
And we kind of need that because the doctor can't steal the target

836
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.219
but we have to get back to Campbell somehow.

837
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.739
Felicity Campbell.

838
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:11.579
Felicity Campbell.

839
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:15.059
And so all of that stuff's really light and we haven't talked

840
00:34:15.059 --> 00:34:16.139
about episode seven.

841
00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:17.760
The Christmas special.

842
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:20.099
Which is where Blossom La Favre comes in.

843
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.739
Is she a silent film actress, yeah.

844
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:23.940
And yeah, episode seven.

845
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:29.460
It's a wonderful idea to have this Christmas episode because John

846
00:34:29.460 --> 00:34:33.780
Well suddenly looked at the schedule and went, not only do I have

847
00:34:33.780 --> 00:34:38.099
to put up with this 12 episode story that's been commissioned, that

848
00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:40.559
we don't have scripts for, there's an episode that's going to be

849
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:44.099
going out on Christmas Day, and our ratings will drop.

850
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.260
We can't have a part of the main narrative.

851
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:47.699
What are we going to do?

852
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.619
Let's have a Christmas episode, which the very 1st Doctor Who

853
00:34:52.619 --> 00:34:56.699
Christmas episode, which also does what you were saying about a

854
00:34:56.699 --> 00:34:58.260
story last season, Richard.

855
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.139
It does other TV shows and films.

856
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.400
It does Zed cars.

857
00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:05.280
It does silent film.

858
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:06.719
Dixon of Dockroom.

859
00:35:06.780 --> 00:35:08.219
Dixon of Dot Green.

860
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:12.960
Now, this may just be rumour, but I've heard it reported as a fact

861
00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:15.900
that much like the Beatles.

862
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:19.800
Originally, the police officers were meant to be the cast of

863
00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:20.340
Zedcars.

864
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:21.599
Oh that's right.

865
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:22.619
They were.

866
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:24.420
Yeah, and the cast were up for it.

867
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:26.940
And again, it was the producer of Zed cars who said, no, you can't

868
00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:27.719
send this up like that.

869
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.860
The thing is, they, you know, they weren't really being sent up.

870
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.920
But I love the lead into it that the doctor's like, oh, the

871
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:36.119
atmosphere is toxic outside.

872
00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:38.400
And then by way of explanation, the doctor says, you 2 are from

873
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:38.699
the future.

874
00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:39.960
Your air's been purified.

875
00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:41.340
You can't step out in Liverpool.

876
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:47.820
And there's all that comedy business that we'll see a bit more of

877
00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:50.699
later on as Stephen not understanding modern day earth.

878
00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:55.559
And yeah, then we then we get the whole silent film bit, which

879
00:35:55.559 --> 00:35:58.079
would have been absolutely wonderful and apparently it had

880
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:00.659
captions and it's got...

881
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:04.800
I'm really sad we don't get Gene Mush straddling the light on top

882
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:06.420
of the TARDIS and trying to fix that.

883
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:07.380
Remember, she was the one.

884
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.000
Yeah, she does right on the right one.

885
00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:12.119
She's fabulous in that sequence, in that stuff in Liverpool.

886
00:36:12.179 --> 00:36:13.679
She's hilarious with the cops.

887
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:14.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

888
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.179
She's terrific.

889
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:17.699
Strange man kept telling me to take my clothes.

890
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:20.579
Oh, that's later in the films.

891
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:21.840
I do Becky Harvey.

892
00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.659
Yeah, I said watch the reconstruction, just the audios as usual.

893
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:26.940
There is a sort of crummy...

894
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.340
It's all right, but it's animation.

895
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.599
Yeah, it's not done.

896
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:31.800
Very high quality.

897
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.059
Yeah, the animated version commissioned by Ian Levine isn't too

898
00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:36.659
bad.

899
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:39.840
It's not as good as the mission to the unknown animation.

900
00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:42.420
It's done by a different animator.

901
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:44.760
And if you're listening and you're the animator, I do apologise.

902
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:45.960
Yeah, it's fantastic.

903
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:46.500
We love it.

904
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.559
Well, you know, it's, as I say, it's not bad.

905
00:36:49.619 --> 00:36:53.400
It's just not animated in my personal, to my personal taste.

906
00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:56.280
Oh, I watched the recon on the recons perfectly serviceable, and

907
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:59.579
the recon does do the caption slides and everything.

908
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:03.420
Like it, uh, you know, it's, it is just terrifically fun and

909
00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:03.719
funny.

910
00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:05.579
And you are, like, what are you going to do?

911
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:09.239
Like, are you going to have like a green, dark, terry nation, you

912
00:37:09.239 --> 00:37:13.260
know, gunfest with Daleks murdering kind of delegates, you know, on

913
00:37:13.260 --> 00:37:13.980
Christmas Day?

914
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:14.760
That's no good.

915
00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:17.099
The Daleks just don't appear at all.

916
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:17.880
No.

917
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:21.960
And then, of course, it's got that classic moment at the end, which

918
00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:25.980
we reenacted earlier with our champagne, where William Hartnell

919
00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:26.820
toasts the audience.

920
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:28.440
He does. breaks the wall.

921
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:31.860
And I just hate now how that's sort of been recon by members of

922
00:37:31.860 --> 00:37:34.380
the production team saying, oh, you know, it was an ad lib and we

923
00:37:34.380 --> 00:37:35.400
didn't ask Billy to do that.

924
00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:36.659
It's in the script.

925
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.420
It could have been cut very easily.

926
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:43.139
You know, okay, it would have cost £100 to cut it or however much

927
00:37:43.139 --> 00:37:46.320
it cost to edit video back then, but it could have been cut, and

928
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:51.059
it was a common thing for programs to do at that stage for the

929
00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:52.440
stars to break the 4th wall.

930
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:56.519
I mean, you know, like for the rest of its run, Doctor Who has

931
00:37:56.519 --> 00:38:00.480
been so firmly and strictly realist that the idea that someone

932
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:03.719
would turn to the audience and toast them, that's appalling.

933
00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:04.980
We can't possibly have that.

934
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.500
Even the Sonic Screwdriver...

935
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:09.960
And you kind of alluded to this earlier.

936
00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:13.559
The reason that works is because it's so completely necessary for

937
00:38:13.559 --> 00:38:14.699
the rest of this plot.

938
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.340
You need that light relief. break, yeah.

939
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.440
The balance of the dark is so very dark.

940
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:21.300
I love to see that episode.

941
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:23.280
It's the one I really would like to see.

942
00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:25.199
Is that the one that you're least likely to do?

943
00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:25.440
Exactly.

944
00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:27.360
I just want to see how Canfield carried it off.

945
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.300
Because you know he would have made an absolute treasure of it.

946
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:31.440
It would have been a...

947
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:35.039
It's interesting that Dougie Canfield himself who apparently wrote

948
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:39.960
the breaking the 4th wall, dotted a camera scene of and toasting

949
00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:40.500
the audience.

950
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:45.659
He was doing a lot of rewriting and often on set, and he was

951
00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:49.139
notorious for folding up a £one note, which was a lot in those

952
00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:51.900
days, and holding up and saying, who's got the best resolution for

953
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:52.380
this problem?

954
00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:54.960
Because they were often working with a script that was barely

955
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:57.000
structured out.

956
00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:01.079
This is almost improv theatre, which is why so much of it is so

957
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.679
fresh to listen to now. then slightly pants.

958
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:09.119
I was a slightly padded, which can produce some really interesting

959
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:09.539
results.

960
00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:11.400
Hopefully like this podcast.

961
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:17.880
So obviously the following episode goes out on New Year's, day, New

962
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:18.119
Zealand.

963
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:18.719
I suppose so.

964
00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:22.019
26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31.

965
00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:23.880
Okay.

966
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:28.079
We should really know. every year, actually. happens on the same

967
00:39:28.079 --> 00:39:28.320
date.

968
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:31.860
But the fun thing is, of course, that that ends, like they go to

969
00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:35.519
the oval and stuff and then there's some stuff is Trantis, they're

970
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:38.219
experimenting with the training court.

971
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:39.360
They have the training core.

972
00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:41.099
Yeah, they've give it up.

973
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.079
No, they're still a fake one.

974
00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:44.519
So when do they get the real one?

975
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:45.480
Oh god.

976
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:47.400
There's too many episodes in this.

977
00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:49.139
I can't remember That's the thing.

978
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:50.760
A lot of lather rinse repeat.

979
00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:51.360
Yeah, yes.

980
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:53.699
So they've got one of the terranium courses.

981
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:56.219
Yeah, because the fake terranium core does work very briefly.

982
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.480
And there's the thing I love about the fake geranium core is when

983
00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:05.699
they're figuring out how they can, because the doctors made the

984
00:40:05.699 --> 00:40:06.659
fake geranium core.

985
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.980
It's like, how do I charge this up?

986
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.199
And Stephen says, oh, well, if we attach it to the engine, we can

987
00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:10.500
do this.

988
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:13.500
And Stephen's from the future, but Sarah's from even further in

989
00:40:13.500 --> 00:40:15.480
the future and goes, that's a stupid idea.

990
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.400
Yeah, they actually both make fun of him.

991
00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:18.840
Don't they both gang up on Steven?

992
00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:20.280
Yeah, they both gang up on Stephen.

993
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:23.820
So he electrocutes himself to prove a point. and makes it work.

994
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:29.519
And I think it's a weird moment, but it's another moment of...

995
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:33.239
It is a moment of levity because it's Steven's pride has been hurt

996
00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:34.019
by a woman.

997
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.420
So he's going to show her. a Homer Simpson moment.

998
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:39.960
And he spends a whole episode like being executed, being

999
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:41.340
electrocuted, doesn't he?

1000
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:45.059
being sluggish and knowing what's going on. also having a shield

1001
00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:45.539
around him.

1002
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.039
God, yeah, that's right.

1003
00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:50.579
Well, who's going to question the ropey science at this point?

1004
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.280
But you love the ice soldiers of mariners.

1005
00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:56.579
So don't don't don't don't you groan about someone having a

1006
00:40:56.579 --> 00:40:57.480
personal course field.

1007
00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:00.780
So, so, oh, yes, it actually saves him, does it?

1008
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.099
It actually ends up saving it.

1009
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.500
It saves them all and lets them get back to the TARDIS.

1010
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:05.460
Yes, what nonsense.

1011
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:09.239
So it is the fake core that they have in episode eight.

1012
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:12.300
Yes, because they can test it on Tractus, but that's not the

1013
00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:12.480
power.

1014
00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:13.260
Yeah, yeah.

1015
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.539
Well, I don't think it works on chance, don't they?

1016
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:17.039
They're forced to kind of shoot him.

1017
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:17.760
Oh yeah, that's right.

1018
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:18.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1019
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:22.920
But, uh, and then that's when the Dalek Time machine is sent after

1020
00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:23.219
them.

1021
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.199
So this is when the chase part 2 begins.

1022
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:29.940
So, you know, they encounter the monk in episode A on the planet

1023
00:41:29.940 --> 00:41:34.320
Tigers, and the episode ends with them.

1024
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.860
They land in the present day, like on New Year's Eve.

1025
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:40.320
They land a few hours before broadcast.

1026
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:44.280
Like, are they in Trafanada Square or something, and we know that

1027
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:45.659
the Daleks are on their way.

1028
00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:49.559
So it's like the Daleks, like episode 8 ends with this at a fun

1029
00:41:49.559 --> 00:41:51.960
moment where the Daleks are heading towards us.

1030
00:41:52.860 --> 00:41:57.179
In the audience, you know, to destroy the museum, which I just

1031
00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:58.559
think is sort of terrifically fun.

1032
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:03.059
And then we get the 2 episodes in ancient Egypt and then we're

1033
00:42:03.059 --> 00:42:07.079
back to the grim dark planet of Gemble all over again.

1034
00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:12.960
Terry Nation script was in fact 24 pages when delivered.

1035
00:42:13.019 --> 00:42:13.920
Spoon.

1036
00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:15.239
Okay, so I was wrong in that regard?

1037
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:15.900
Not at all.

1038
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:17.280
Spooner, they're double-sided.

1039
00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:22.980
Spooner had worked with Nation before and wasn't at all surprised

1040
00:42:22.980 --> 00:42:24.960
but it was delivered on it in a taxi.

1041
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:27.300
It had glorious notes of spaceships.

1042
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:32.159
It apparently had all the delegates defined and it had a lengthy

1043
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:37.920
description of Vicki's death with, and I'll quote, a seraphic Mona

1044
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:42.059
Lisa smile on her lips as she floats out of the airlock.

1045
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:42.960
Thank you, Terry.

1046
00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:47.219
So that's pretty much all that Spooner and Tosh got.

1047
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.900
This is a Spooner and Tosh script.

1048
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:52.860
So anything that will mean something to you now, dear listener, as

1049
00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:55.440
you've heard us go on about, say these things in the past, dear.

1050
00:42:55.559 --> 00:42:57.780
All of that stuff where you're talking about the bantering episode

1051
00:42:57.780 --> 00:43:02.039
one where the 2 people are talking about, how much they like, um

1052
00:43:02.039 --> 00:43:07.860
how much they like, Mavic Chan, whom we haven't even mentioned.

1053
00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:10.559
Do you know his original name was Boonehong?

1054
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:14.219
In in nation script, yeah.

1055
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:18.179
Yeah, aside from the roles of women, we're about to get onto the

1056
00:43:18.179 --> 00:43:18.539
other thing.

1057
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:22.920
Is he he's in blackface, isn't he?

1058
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:27.900
We like to think he's blue, that it's not racist, that he's a blue

1059
00:43:27.900 --> 00:43:28.679
person from the future.

1060
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:31.500
See, I do think in...

1061
00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:34.320
In some way, because...

1062
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.920
He's the Mekon from Dan Deer that is green in that with the same

1063
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:39.780
epicath involved.

1064
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.659
Yeah, he really is, this question.

1065
00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:45.960
He's got fingernails, giant fingernails, because it's...

1066
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.000
It's the yellow peril, isn't it?

1067
00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:48.719
Oh, yeah.

1068
00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:49.199
Yeah, yeah.

1069
00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:51.119
It's a colo. the Comi peril.

1070
00:43:51.539 --> 00:43:52.619
It's the Comi peril.

1071
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:55.739
You've got like being the merciless and stuff.

1072
00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:58.619
You know, they're always slightly, like it is that sort of scary

1073
00:43:58.619 --> 00:44:01.380
oriental thing and he is called Chen after all.

1074
00:44:01.619 --> 00:44:08.400
And his saxophone is Fu Manchu from the 1912 novel, the same.

1075
00:44:08.460 --> 00:44:14.280
So it is, it's just sort of weird, lazy racism, but he, he's so

1076
00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:15.239
superb.

1077
00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:17.039
He's so tremendous.

1078
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:18.179
That's the thing, isn't it?

1079
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:20.880
It's like, yeah, this is racist, but it's actually a really good

1080
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:22.139
performance.

1081
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.860
Yes, because he does nuance and over the top in both hands.

1082
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.219
Yeah, he doesn't do any comedy accents or anything.

1083
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.780
And you get this, I think that's the big thing.

1084
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:31.380
He doesn't.

1085
00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:36.300
He's got he's got the makeup, but he doesn't do the thing that

1086
00:44:36.300 --> 00:44:38.280
would later be problematic for John Bennett.

1087
00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:45.300
He doesn't do the sort of stereotype racist Johnny Chinaman accent

1088
00:44:45.300 --> 00:44:48.599
and I use that inadverted commas because that is how it was

1089
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:49.079
referred to.

1090
00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:53.280
No, in fact, it's a great performance because he's massively suave

1091
00:44:53.280 --> 00:44:54.119
and in control.

1092
00:44:54.179 --> 00:44:56.340
He's really, really funny actually.

1093
00:44:56.400 --> 00:44:59.820
He doesn't quite get the Tobias Vaughan thing, which will get in a

1094
00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:02.099
couple of years time, because we'll say bring him back for another

1095
00:45:02.099 --> 00:45:04.199
giant epic story to be the villain.

1096
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:07.920
Um, He doesn't do that, Tobias, fallen thing, of being hilariously

1097
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:10.199
amused when he's being foughted, which I just think is

1098
00:45:10.199 --> 00:45:11.400
spectacular.

1099
00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:15.119
But he's completely in control.

1100
00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:19.019
And, you know, like even when he doesn't manage, you know, he

1101
00:45:19.019 --> 00:45:20.760
loses the doctor on the planet mirror.

1102
00:45:20.820 --> 00:45:22.139
There's all these stuff ups and stuff.

1103
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:25.260
But he manages to cover it up and he manages to be sort of

1104
00:45:25.260 --> 00:45:29.639
terribly suave until the very end, until those last 2 episodes or

1105
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:32.820
so where he just kind of loses it and his surplus to

1106
00:45:32.820 --> 00:45:33.420
requirements.

1107
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:36.780
And, you know, what the Daleks have imprisoned all of the other

1108
00:45:36.780 --> 00:45:40.019
delegates, but he's sort of lauding it over them and then, you

1109
00:45:40.019 --> 00:45:43.559
know, he, they pretend to let the delegates escape, but blow them

1110
00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.860
up, but Chen sort of somehow escapes and he's menacing.

1111
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:50.460
You know, he can't believe the Badaleks don't need him and he

1112
00:45:50.460 --> 00:45:52.739
thinks he's going to take over from them and stuff.

1113
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.599
And he does go crazy at the end.

1114
00:45:54.659 --> 00:45:55.619
But it is a terrific.

1115
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.139
It's a terrific through line, like a really great fun

1116
00:45:58.139 --> 00:45:58.679
performance.

1117
00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:03.179
He's such an amazing character in that, you know, a lot of

1118
00:46:03.179 --> 00:46:08.699
characters think they can better the daleks and end up failing.

1119
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:12.119
But this is the only character where you think actually genuinely

1120
00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:14.940
deep down to the core of his being, he thinks he can do it.

1121
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.000
You know, most people when they when they try and double cross

1122
00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:18.599
Daleks.

1123
00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:20.639
You know, they have their doubts and they're hoping they can get

1124
00:46:20.639 --> 00:46:23.340
through, whereas Maverick Cham is just like, no, of course I can

1125
00:46:23.340 --> 00:46:23.579
do that.

1126
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:25.260
I'm Mavic Chan.

1127
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.760
Magic, magic.

1128
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:29.340
I mean, right from his very 1st appearance where he's being

1129
00:46:29.340 --> 00:46:31.440
interviewed on the TV news and you've got people talking about how

1130
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.159
wonderful he is.

1131
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:33.059
He's a rock star.

1132
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:34.380
He's the rock star president.

1133
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:36.420
He's he's Barack Obama.

1134
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:38.820
Tony Blair.

1135
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.099
Well, early Tony Black.

1136
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:42.059
Yeah, that's right.

1137
00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:45.480
But I am simply talking about the media machine rub than any

1138
00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:46.440
politics involved.

1139
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.260
But yeah, he's the rock star president.

1140
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:50.519
Yeah, no.

1141
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:51.659
He's there for Beabot Rocks.

1142
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:52.079
There you go.

1143
00:46:52.139 --> 00:46:52.619
That's it.

1144
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:54.539
I mean, he's wonderful.

1145
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:56.280
He's absolutely superb.

1146
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.960
He's the master of the 60s.

1147
00:46:58.019 --> 00:47:01.139
And as you glued it too earlier, there's a lot of the dialogue.

1148
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:04.860
A lot of the dialogue in this is actually lifted straight off and

1149
00:47:04.860 --> 00:47:05.940
put into Dogado.

1150
00:47:05.940 --> 00:47:08.880
Kevin Stony even says, you will obey me.

1151
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:10.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1152
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:13.380
Oh, and I think the master has a fun line in sort of going

1153
00:47:13.380 --> 00:47:16.980
hysterical when his alien allies kind of sort of turn on him in

1154
00:47:16.980 --> 00:47:19.739
episodes 6 or 4 or whatever.

1155
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:25.679
And I guess, I mean, that's, we're kind of talking about the last

1156
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:28.440
few episodes, episodes.

1157
00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:31.800
We've always proceeded in a rough order.

1158
00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:34.500
What do you think about talking about the time destructor then?

1159
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.380
So one of the great things about the recon.

1160
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:39.179
I hadn't seen the recons before.

1161
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:40.619
I had heard the audio a lot.

1162
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:44.880
I was really impressed watching the recons with the Qic design

1163
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.639
stuff and how consistent it was with the look he'd given the

1164
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:49.079
Daleks in the previous stories.

1165
00:47:49.139 --> 00:47:51.420
So the Dalek Time machine looks the same.

1166
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:56.639
Even though sort of crazy, you know, the gear team doors?

1167
00:47:56.699 --> 00:48:00.059
No, yeah, yeah, the doors and the and the outlines of the doorways

1168
00:48:00.059 --> 00:48:02.460
and stuff, which we commented on in the Daleks, you know, they

1169
00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:07.380
were sort of strange and sort of unworldly and things, you know

1170
00:48:07.380 --> 00:48:08.460
not not human.

1171
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:09.719
And they're all there.

1172
00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:15.000
When Chen leads Stephen and Sarah down down the passageway to the

1173
00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.639
Dalek base at the end of episode 11.

1174
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.219
It's through a corridor that looks like that.

1175
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:22.980
It was wonderful to see all of all of that stuff.

1176
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:27.059
The recons, though, do something sort of massively clever though.

1177
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:31.139
And that's, you remember they get the sort of time destructor

1178
00:48:31.139 --> 00:48:36.119
which is kind of weird and the scary, you know, it makes a noise

1179
00:48:36.119 --> 00:48:40.559
and it's like, it's, it's, and it's very deep bass noise.

1180
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:42.659
It sort of sits in your gut when you hear it.

1181
00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:45.360
And it just runs for minutes and minutes around the soundtrack

1182
00:48:45.360 --> 00:48:47.760
like it's all the way through the end of the thing.

1183
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:51.059
And, you know, they're trying to escape with it.

1184
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:54.059
I can't remember what they want to do. they think they can disable

1185
00:48:54.059 --> 00:48:56.159
it when they get to the TARDIS or something. can't remember.

1186
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:57.659
Yeah, that's the thing.

1187
00:48:57.780 --> 00:48:59.400
It's kind of like we can't switch it off where we are.

1188
00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:02.099
And we can't leave the Daleks with it.

1189
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:06.119
So let's let's take it and hope that, but also, you know, taking

1190
00:49:06.119 --> 00:49:09.480
it doesn't enhance its effect.

1191
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:12.059
It's affecting the whole planet, I think.

1192
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:16.440
And so, and so they're running through the, the, um, the jungle

1193
00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:20.699
and Sarah's getting affected by it.

1194
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:24.539
And what the recon people do is they use a photograph of Gene

1195
00:49:24.539 --> 00:49:27.840
Marsh, like a recent photograph of Gene Marsh.

1196
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:32.400
Yeah, yeah. you know, a particularly bad one of her with added

1197
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:33.239
lines and what happened.

1198
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:33.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1199
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:36.780
Like, I mean, Gene Marsh is, you know, a striking and gorgeous and

1200
00:49:36.780 --> 00:49:41.400
attractive woman, but she's, you know, this is... that's right

1201
00:49:41.579 --> 00:49:45.119
This is a long time ago and she was silky hot catsuit, Emma Peel

1202
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:51.840
sort of Kathy Gale anyway, sort of, um, uh, you know, heroin, um

1203
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:55.320
and she just ages before our eyes and it's really, really

1204
00:49:55.320 --> 00:49:55.860
horrifying.

1205
00:49:55.920 --> 00:49:58.199
And I actually found that a lot more horrifying than sort of

1206
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:02.340
strange brushhead wig thing that she ends up wearing when she, when

1207
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:04.800
she sort of finally crawling across the sand and dying.

1208
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:05.760
Yeah.

1209
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:11.880
And, well, I mean, what I what I find amazing is, um, In in the

1210
00:50:11.880 --> 00:50:15.960
audio, it comes across that when the doctor tries to help her, she

1211
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:19.260
pushes him away, like she's like, no, you keep going.

1212
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.320
She calls out to him, like, help, I'm in pain.

1213
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:23.820
But then she's like, no, you keep going.

1214
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:25.679
And then when Stephen tries to help the doctor.

1215
00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:28.260
Just the fury in Billy's voice.

1216
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:28.980
No, get back.

1217
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.960
It's like, you know, Katerina's already sacrificed herself.

1218
00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:35.639
The doctor and Sarah are ready to die as well.

1219
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.460
And then Sarah dies and the doctor lives.

1220
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:43.500
And it's a bit like when Douglas Canfield decided to show the

1221
00:50:43.500 --> 00:50:45.900
Daleks as these sort of starfish creatures.

1222
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:48.659
Yeah, sort of embryos.

1223
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.099
We go back in time a bit or something.

1224
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:55.440
Well, he's like, I think I've read an interview somewhere where

1225
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:58.079
either Terry Nation or Dennis, someone who was involved in the

1226
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:01.860
creative process, their thought was with the Daleks, because in

1227
00:51:01.860 --> 00:51:04.199
sort of the mind of the 60s, unless they're destroyed Dalek

1228
00:51:04.199 --> 00:51:04.920
through Immortal.

1229
00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:07.800
Instead of just ageing the Daleks, they decided to evolve the

1230
00:51:07.800 --> 00:51:08.460
Daleks.

1231
00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:09.719
So what the Daleks will become.

1232
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:14.099
The Daleks hint in the story that the doctor is more than human.

1233
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.079
And so he's from another galaxy or something and he's a time

1234
00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:19.980
thing.

1235
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.739
Sarah, ages to death.

1236
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:24.719
The Daleks age 1000000s of years.

1237
00:51:24.780 --> 00:51:26.820
The doctor falls over.

1238
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.320
You know, it...

1239
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:33.000
It does that one thing at least in reestablishing the mystery of

1240
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.460
the character, because the mystery, the character is a bit gone

1241
00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:39.480
because the mystery entirely depended on Ian Barbara kind of going

1242
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:40.440
oh, we don't know who he is.

1243
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:44.280
And that mystery, sort of for a curious child.

1244
00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:46.619
Not a lot of children would have thought, well, why did why did

1245
00:51:46.619 --> 00:51:47.340
the doctor die?

1246
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:48.659
Because he's much older than Sarah.

1247
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.960
He should have died...

1248
00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:55.079
Yeah, there's a 1st intimation that there's something about him.

1249
00:51:55.800 --> 00:52:00.599
Um, there is sort of literature at the time where I think Variety

1250
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:03.179
Lambert and William Hart will both refer to him as being several

1251
00:52:03.179 --> 00:52:03.840
100 years old.

1252
00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:05.280
Yeah.

1253
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.119
But I could be wrong.

1254
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:09.059
Certainly, Patrick Trouchon refers to him as being several

1255
00:52:09.059 --> 00:52:09.840
hundreds, so.

1256
00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:10.320
Yeah.

1257
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:10.739
Yeah.

1258
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:14.219
So I think the other thing too is that the Campbell, you know, the

1259
00:52:14.219 --> 00:52:17.340
fact that the Planet Campbell, which was 1st introduced to us, like

1260
00:52:17.340 --> 00:52:19.920
months ago in mission to the unknown, somewhere that we've

1261
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:20.940
been...

1262
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:24.000
Yeah, yeah, we've been to it 3 times or something like that and

1263
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:27.239
we've been back all the time over the last 3 months.

1264
00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:28.260
Yes, unheard of.

1265
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:30.960
Yeah, it's been the backdrop and it's completely destroyed as

1266
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:31.260
well.

1267
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:34.980
And like, like we get this sort of desert background now, like the

1268
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:38.820
jungle with its the BBC sound effects record and stuff is

1269
00:52:38.820 --> 00:52:40.440
completely gone.

1270
00:52:40.500 --> 00:52:45.119
And so all of that is like it's a huge, and we've already said, you

1271
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:48.119
know, mission to the unknown, everyone gets killed.

1272
00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:50.760
Mythmaker, because everyone gets killed.

1273
00:52:50.820 --> 00:52:53.760
You know, all this whole thing ends with them talking about all

1274
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:58.260
the people like Brett and Sarah and Katerina who've died, you know

1275
00:52:58.260 --> 00:53:04.679
so again, like the doctor kind of prevents the Daleks invading the

1276
00:53:04.679 --> 00:53:08.280
galaxy or whatever it is they want to do, but the whole emphasis

1277
00:53:08.280 --> 00:53:11.880
of that final scene is on all of the people that he failed to

1278
00:53:11.880 --> 00:53:12.239
save.

1279
00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:16.199
And so the whole story has been the whole show has been, had these

1280
00:53:16.199 --> 00:53:19.559
sort of series of successive, miserable endings.

1281
00:53:20.099 --> 00:53:24.480
And it is just the way things are going.

1282
00:53:24.539 --> 00:53:25.079
Fortunately.

1283
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:27.719
The next story is called the massacre.

1284
00:53:27.780 --> 00:53:29.039
So it's fine.

1285
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:31.139
Well, it's a laugh a minute.

1286
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:38.219
No, I just I think this is a great celebration of what the show

1287
00:53:38.219 --> 00:53:41.940
can do that it hasn't done before and just how it can be any other

1288
00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:42.300
thing.

1289
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:48.900
Right now it's being Heisenberg and the Manhattan Project and it's

1290
00:53:48.900 --> 00:53:53.099
being the communist threat now from China as much as Soviet Russia

1291
00:53:53.099 --> 00:53:54.719
which is, I think, where Matic Chin is coming from.

1292
00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.599
But at the same time, it's being Dan Dare and it's...

1293
00:53:57.659 --> 00:54:01.079
I think all of those things are like, yeah, and Billy is the quiet

1294
00:54:01.079 --> 00:54:01.679
centre.

1295
00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:05.039
And I think even though he loses it a few times in this and is

1296
00:54:05.039 --> 00:54:05.820
quite volatile.

1297
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:10.500
You just see how fantastically Homerically heroic he is in this.

1298
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:12.539
He really makes things happen.

1299
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:16.500
He really is the reason that this comes about, and he inspires

1300
00:54:16.500 --> 00:54:20.880
even an up to the ultimate sacrifice, not once, but several times

1301
00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:23.099
in the narrative, mostly from women.

1302
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.019
Thanks for that.

1303
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:30.420
So, yeah, I think I think sort of the final line we can say on it

1304
00:54:30.420 --> 00:54:31.980
is it is a very successful story.

1305
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:35.400
It is a very enjoyable story, but it is it is still problematic in

1306
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:38.460
the way it's treating what have become the traditions of the

1307
00:54:38.460 --> 00:54:40.559
series because it's been on the air for 3 years now.

1308
00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:42.659
Yeah, sorry, 2 and a bit years, I would say.

1309
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.280
It's still a problem 50 years on.

1310
00:54:44.340 --> 00:54:45.239
Yeah, yeah.

1311
00:54:45.300 --> 00:54:48.960
So people say it's a classic and yeah, in a way it is a classic

1312
00:54:48.960 --> 00:54:50.400
but it's not without its problems.

1313
00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:56.820
Well, yes, I'd have to say that's the case.

1314
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:58.019
There you go.

1315
00:54:58.079 --> 00:54:58.500
Well done.

1316
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:01.380
So...

1317
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:03.179
So, God.

1318
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:09.000
Well, so we got through that was our 12 episodes on the Daleks

1319
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:10.139
master plan.

1320
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:13.199
Please come back next week where we will be talking about the next

1321
00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:17.280
3 stories in the season and greeting another new companion who is

1322
00:55:17.280 --> 00:55:20.940
definitely a companion for better or for worse in the massacre, the

1323
00:55:20.940 --> 00:55:23.519
ark and the celestial toy maker.

1324
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:24.239
So we'll see you then.

1325
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:24.659
Good night.

1326
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:25.559
Good night.

1327
00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:26.039
Good night.

1328
00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:34.079
You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan

1329
00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:36.000
Botomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1330
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:38.940
This episode, How would You Address a God, who was recorded on

1331
00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:40.199
Sunday, the 10th of August.

1332
00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:43.260
The next episode will be released on September 7th.

1333
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:46.320
You can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through

1334
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:50.280
entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter, and

1335
00:55:50.280 --> 00:55:52.679
incidentally, a happy podcast to all of you at home.

1336
00:55:56.039 --> 00:56:00.179
I I don't think we will talk about that week's Master Craig in 45

1337
00:56:00.179 --> 00:56:00.420
minutes.

1338
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:02.519
So this is where we're going to make some time up, because even

1339
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:04.920
though it's 12 episodes, this is episodes a plot.

1340
00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:06.480
Well, we can talk about that.