WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:32:07

1
00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:41.159
Welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety covering season three of Doctor Who, and we are the only Doctor Who podcasts who are actually trying to start a jumble sale instead of fighting the Daleks.

2
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:42.179
I'm Brendan.

3
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:43.140
I'm Nathan.

4
00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:44.039
I'm Richard.

5
00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:50.820
And you've come to an episode entirely devoted to Doctor Who's 2nd longest individual story.

6
00:00:54.299 --> 00:00:55.920
The Daleks master plan.

7
00:00:55.979 --> 00:01:00.659
So can we start having a fight about that before we fight about whether Katarine as a companion?

8
00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:01.679
No, we can't.

9
00:01:01.740 --> 00:01:02.280
Okay, sorry.

10
00:01:02.340 --> 00:01:09.359
Well, at 1st off, start, but it was never called the Dalek Master Plan, and it was never really seen as a full story except by the BBC.

11
00:01:09.420 --> 00:01:14.459
The viewers saw it as just an episodic thing that happened to have daleks in it week by week.

12
00:01:14.579 --> 00:01:16.439
Yeah, it's not...

13
00:01:16.439 --> 00:01:18.239
We didn't know, it saw keys of barrenness.

14
00:01:18.299 --> 00:01:20.340
And so, you know, for us.

15
00:01:20.760 --> 00:01:23.879
And this is, you know, something that people say all the time, isn't it?

16
00:01:23.939 --> 00:01:32.879
that watching it as a series of movies, you know, like it's neatly packaged for you by BBC DVD or whatever.

17
00:01:33.480 --> 00:01:34.079
It comes in.

18
00:01:34.140 --> 00:01:35.099
Well, that'd be lovely.

19
00:01:35.159 --> 00:01:38.459
It came in a box with Dalek masterplan on the side and had all the episodes.

20
00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:45.180
But, you know, like we think of it as, and it's Dalek's master plan, according to the BBC website, I think, trying to train myself all the time.

21
00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:46.500
Daleks apostrophe, masterplan.

22
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:47.819
Master plan being 2 words.

23
00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:51.959
I think that we should call it the Daleks apostrophe masterplan.

24
00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:52.319
Anyway.

25
00:01:52.379 --> 00:02:04.920
I just love how when we get towards the end of Pertwee, and they decided, let's do another 12 part dialect story, but let's do it at 6 parters, and let's involve Roger Delgado, that essentially that becomes the master's darling plan.

26
00:02:04.980 --> 00:02:05.219
Yes.

27
00:02:06.659 --> 00:02:09.479
We'll make that joke again in a couple of years.

28
00:02:09.539 --> 00:02:13.379
But so we never know when it's going to end.

29
00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.539
We don't know that it's a 12 part or anything like that.

30
00:02:15.659 --> 00:02:24.180
And, you know, Sandov has this sort of giant thing where he thinks it's, you know, 4 stories, some of which are inside other stories and stuff like that.

31
00:02:24.240 --> 00:02:28.800
But I just kind of like the idea that this is just taking it a slightly different way.

32
00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:36.300
And I kind of think it's a little bit like the way that Doctor Who eventually settles down in when Russell T. Davis brings it back.

33
00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:46.080
So you've got this kind of a bunch of stuff that happens over 12, 13 episodes with a framing story, do you know what I mean?

34
00:02:46.139 --> 00:02:47.520
and common things.

35
00:02:47.580 --> 00:02:51.360
And it is something that we've tried in Keys of Marinus and the Chase.

36
00:02:51.419 --> 00:02:56.280
And in fact, we called bits of this, the chase part 2, or I think, when I did...

37
00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:57.599
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

38
00:02:57.659 --> 00:03:00.240
This should really be called the Kevin Stoney story.

39
00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:04.319
Stony Saga because what would it have been without him?

40
00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:05.460
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

41
00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:06.180
Absolutely, absolutely.

42
00:03:06.300 --> 00:03:09.599
And we haven't even mentioned casual racism yet.

43
00:03:09.659 --> 00:03:11.039
Well, we will.

44
00:03:11.159 --> 00:03:11.759
We will.

45
00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:14.039
Yeah, the old story movie.

46
00:03:14.099 --> 00:03:14.759
What are we up to now?

47
00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:23.819
This is this is, though, a story that was absolutely mired in production drama.

48
00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:35.280
It's the last story which Ray Cusick worked on because he by the end of it, he was very unhappy with the way he was being treated with the way the design department were being treated.

49
00:03:35.340 --> 00:03:37.199
It was in great.

50
00:03:37.259 --> 00:03:39.599
Oh, yeah, his designs are beautiful.

51
00:03:39.659 --> 00:03:42.300
It's a wonderful swan song for him on Doctor Who.

52
00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:47.340
I mean, he did so much else afterwards, as opposed to some other people from this era, sadly.

53
00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:53.099
The story was commissioned by Verity Lambert, who sort of went, oh, Daleks are so popular.

54
00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.620
Let's have 3 months of Daleks.

55
00:03:55.680 --> 00:04:01.259
And then sort of a lot of the pre-production work was done by Verity Lambert.

56
00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:07.199
It was Douglas Campfield was chosen as the director, of course, on the strength of the Crusade.

57
00:04:07.259 --> 00:04:09.300
Ray Cusick was Chosman's designer.

58
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:12.599
So in that way, Verity, I think Verity made those choices.

59
00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:17.339
So she was setting it up to be as easy a production as it could be.

60
00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:23.519
But as Donald Tosh has put it in interviews, it was this giant rock in the middle of the road.

61
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:37.620
And it just kind of becomes emblematic of the sort of, okay, roll up your sleeves, get on with an attitude of verity land, but compared to John Wiles completely wanting to cut and change to his own vision, which you can understand a new producer wanting to do.

62
00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:41.220
So it was a story that the production team didn't want to do for a start.

63
00:04:42.060 --> 00:04:46.980
And that apparently Terry Nation barely wrote.

64
00:04:46.980 --> 00:05:00.660
This is like the stories of his, um, you know, season one of Blake 7 where, you know, by about episode 10, he's writing in sort of 3 or 4 lines, you know, on the back of a napkin and handing them to Chris Boucher to turn into an episode.

65
00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:09.360
And clearly, you know, there's like about 4 episodes towards the end, like maybe, but you could just excise from the narrative, couldn't you?

66
00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:14.939
And they don't make any difference and we're off to the oval and we're off to, you know, Hollywood for no particular reason.

67
00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.699
And in fact, for a very good reason, we'll get back to that.

68
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:29.339
But so clearly, Terry Nation sort of underwrites things and is good with sort of guns and big concepts and stuff, but does actually need someone to turn it into a TV show.

69
00:05:29.399 --> 00:05:32.579
Yeah, I mean, the common consensus.

70
00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:41.160
You know, it ranges from Dennis Spooner, um, having written, written literally half with Terry Nation.

71
00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:50.639
So it's half to a spoon, a half traination, to the other end of the spectrum, which is Donald Tosh saying, he got an envelope through his letterbox. was about 12 pages long and that was the 12 episodes.

72
00:05:50.699 --> 00:06:02.879
I think the consensus in the middle is Terry Nation did write about 6 episodes. or 6 episodes worth of material, which was then extended by Dennis Spooner.

73
00:06:02.939 --> 00:06:09.660
Because all of the, yeah, but there's stuff that really reads, like, Terry Nation and stuff that really reads, like, Dennis Spooner.

74
00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:10.379
You know what I mean?

75
00:06:10.439 --> 00:06:11.160
So like those...

76
00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:12.060
It's not a happy marriage.

77
00:06:12.120 --> 00:06:13.620
You don't think so?

78
00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:20.879
I actually think you're getting really lovely sparkly dialogue here. rolled and lies in in the 1st episode and they're doing that office banter around the desks.

79
00:06:20.939 --> 00:06:27.779
It's really what, when Blake 7 was at its best because it's cutting and pithy and antagonistic and...

80
00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:29.160
That was all Chris Boucher.

81
00:06:29.220 --> 00:06:30.360
I don't think that was Terry Nation.

82
00:06:30.420 --> 00:06:31.199
Oh, no, you reckon?

83
00:06:31.259 --> 00:06:32.639
Oh, maybe that was Spooner.

84
00:06:32.699 --> 00:06:37.439
Because when you look at Spooner's other shows, can I just segue here to my one of my all-time favourites, the champions?

85
00:06:37.500 --> 00:06:38.879
Maybe a link at the end.

86
00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:39.899
Champignon.

87
00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:41.279
Yeah, which is...

88
00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:42.480
It sounds like a great neighbor's show.

89
00:06:42.540 --> 00:06:51.899
Yeah, actually, we used to call it that as well. which is, you know, Alexandra Bastedo and William... and Stuart Damon as three.

90
00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:56.519
Kind of the Avengers meets a lovely, gentle, Agatha Christie kind of...

91
00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:58.139
With a bit of X-Men.

92
00:06:58.199 --> 00:06:59.220
Yeah, it was actually quite X-Men.

93
00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:01.319
They were mutants in a way. anyway, set in the late 60s.

94
00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:02.939
No, it's a really beautiful theme.

95
00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:05.100
It's really good to show you an episode after we're done.

96
00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.939
But Spooner's dialogue is really light and charming in that.

97
00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:15.600
I mean, his other shows, I mean, he's writing for the Avengers, I think, young Brendan might actually agree that the Avengers isn't a bad thing.

98
00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:17.279
No, I totally agree.

99
00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:18.420
It has some lovely moments.

100
00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:28.920
And we get later on, of course, in the story, we get Gene Marsh's M appeal and apotheosis, who we all assume watching the listening to this again that she was going to be the new companion.

101
00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:32.040
There's a lot to say.

102
00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:33.300
Can we talk about companions?

103
00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:33.720
All right.

104
00:07:33.779 --> 00:07:36.540
Look, let's let's start with this.

105
00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:37.199
Let's start.

106
00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:41.040
Let's start at the beginning because it's a very good place to start. you.

107
00:07:41.100 --> 00:07:44.759
Okay, uh, 1st episode.

108
00:07:44.819 --> 00:07:46.139
The nightmare begins.

109
00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:49.800
We do pick up from the end of, oh, yes, it does indeed.

110
00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:51.420
At that point, I would feel...

111
00:07:51.420 --> 00:07:53.160
Yeah, at that point, not drinking.

112
00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:55.680
Yeah, we need more shame to all of you at home.

113
00:07:57.540 --> 00:08:04.560
We have, we have, the nightmare begins, picks up from the end of, uh, the mythmakers, where we left last week.

114
00:08:04.620 --> 00:08:11.459
Vicki has gone and has been replaced at the last moment by a character called Casherina, who played by.

115
00:08:11.519 --> 00:08:12.300
Patrick Hill.

116
00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:17.759
Stephen is very sick with blood poisoning because he's been stabbed.

117
00:08:17.819 --> 00:08:20.339
He actually doesn't know that Vicky's not there.

118
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.000
Yeah, he thinks Katerina is Vicky while he's delirious, which is very sad.

119
00:08:24.060 --> 00:08:32.460
It's kind of like the rest of the viewing audience to sure that for half an episode, suddenly we're all meant to know who Katerina is and she's totally cool and welcome in the massage.

120
00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:34.980
We've never seen that.

121
00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:37.080
Shiruji.

122
00:08:37.139 --> 00:08:38.879
Suddenly everyone knew her all along.

123
00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:41.759
She's Mel's from let's kill Hitler.

124
00:08:41.820 --> 00:08:48.419
Yeah, we've all known this handmaiden for the last 3 episodes, but in fact, she's only appeared in 10 minutes.

125
00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:50.639
She's on Mogadon.

126
00:08:50.700 --> 00:08:52.320
Like, she is so...

127
00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:54.240
Like, her delight is slow.

128
00:08:54.299 --> 00:08:57.240
She's just, but she's old world.

129
00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:03.840
Look, you go anywhere on your holiday where they're very bucolic places, especially back in the 60s.

130
00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:10.919
People who have agrarian lives, who lived for simpler times, would have spoken a lot more slowly and thought...

131
00:09:10.980 --> 00:09:13.559
Except that no one else in that story too. like that.

132
00:09:13.620 --> 00:09:15.179
She's the only one who talks like that.

133
00:09:15.240 --> 00:09:19.259
Everyone else in the myth makers is sort of hilarious and bantry and sort of thing.

134
00:09:19.379 --> 00:09:20.940
And then she comes in and she's...

135
00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:22.019
She's a lower class character.

136
00:09:22.080 --> 00:09:25.080
She would not be as well educated as Cassandra.

137
00:09:25.139 --> 00:09:26.100
Oh, no, she's just.

138
00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:27.659
Can I just say I really like this character?

139
00:09:27.779 --> 00:09:29.039
when she 1st came in.

140
00:09:29.100 --> 00:09:31.019
I like her.

141
00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.980
I like that she sees the because, you know, anything tardacy for me is terribly exciting.

142
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.080
Any new view of what the TARDIS is.

143
00:09:37.139 --> 00:09:39.960
She sees it as a temple and a gateway to other dimensions.

144
00:09:40.019 --> 00:09:45.059
She's the only one citing all just Huxley and Jim Morrison from the doors in some of her dialogue.

145
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.299
She actually is referencing, okay.

146
00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:57.480
But in the 60s when Huxley and Jim Morrison were talking about the same kind of thing, when the duors of perception are open, we see onto eternity.

147
00:09:57.539 --> 00:09:59.820
And there's a lot of Lewis Carroll in that as well.

148
00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:06.000
I see her as the Alice character, as the Lewis Carroll's Alice character, dropped down the rabbit hole in something entirely new.

149
00:10:06.059 --> 00:10:11.340
And I love, just as I love the Jamie character, spoiler alert coming up in later seasons.

150
00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.480
Someone taken, for goodness sake, he says in desperation.

151
00:10:15.539 --> 00:10:17.759
This is a show about time and space.

152
00:10:17.820 --> 00:10:19.860
Why does everyone have to be contemporary?

153
00:10:19.919 --> 00:10:22.440
That's kind of what annoyed me about the Vicky character?

154
00:10:22.500 --> 00:10:24.360
Much as I love Maureen O'Brien.

155
00:10:24.419 --> 00:10:25.740
Because he was so contemporary.

156
00:10:25.860 --> 00:10:34.139
I'm going to spend this season pining for a contemporary human being on the TARDIS and Dodo really doesn't care.

157
00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:36.299
Well, I was just going to say, you are catered.

158
00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:38.220
No, I really not.

159
00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:43.559
But she, I mean, the character is, it's just stupid, I think.

160
00:10:43.620 --> 00:10:45.960
She's slow talking.

161
00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:47.820
She's not rising.

162
00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:50.940
Like, really, yeah.

163
00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.460
Spoiler alert, she gets flushed out an airlock quite soon.

164
00:10:53.460 --> 00:10:54.480
And thank goodness.

165
00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:59.639
The most horrific moment in the history, this program up until the present time, you should mention that.

166
00:10:59.700 --> 00:11:00.419
Yeah, yeah.

167
00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:03.120
The thing is, those first... those 1st 4 episodes.

168
00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:12.059
And this is the thing I really like about Katerina is straight away from the beginning, we have a very uncomfortable opening.

169
00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:19.740
The safety, what little safety we had, because in a Barbara leaving was the beginning of the safe family unit falling apart.

170
00:11:19.740 --> 00:11:24.059
And now Vicki has gone very suddenly and the doctor's distracted by that, Stephen's dying.

171
00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:37.559
Doctor's left with Katerina, who does have a certain amount of intelligence, she tries to understand what's going on around it, but of course the doctor can't talk to her, so has to leave her alone, and that discomfort comes to a head when she is killed.

172
00:11:37.620 --> 00:11:44.879
And not just kill, when she sacrifices herself because even the doctor says at that point, she couldn't understand, but no, she understood.

173
00:11:44.940 --> 00:11:46.740
She understood that she would die.

174
00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:53.820
She understood that was the control for the dog because she'd been shown and she understood if I press this, he will die as well.

175
00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.440
She sacrifices herself knowingly.

176
00:11:55.620 --> 00:11:57.600
She's already passed on.

177
00:11:57.659 --> 00:11:59.460
Yeah, that's so lovely.

178
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:01.440
But she sees this is the waiting area.

179
00:12:01.500 --> 00:12:02.039
Hades.

180
00:12:02.100 --> 00:12:03.360
It's not the higher level.

181
00:12:03.419 --> 00:12:05.519
I think they she says limbo, doesn't she?

182
00:12:05.580 --> 00:12:07.139
Yeah, that's why I think it's so interesting.

183
00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.659
We got a whole other perspective in what the TARDIS is.

184
00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:11.100
Who's not to say she's right?

185
00:12:11.220 --> 00:12:17.460
Who's not to say passing through the portals of the Tardis takes us into a dimension that is more like being passed on?

186
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.820
I love it when they throw us new ideas of what the tide is.

187
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.879
But let's talk about what's entertaining on television for a little while.

188
00:12:23.940 --> 00:12:26.039
I just can't imagine.

189
00:12:26.100 --> 00:12:30.120
Like when they bring her in, they already know she's going.

190
00:12:30.179 --> 00:12:31.559
I've heard that she's shot.

191
00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.399
She'll leave her death scene even before she appears.

192
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:37.259
That's true because it was pre-filmed.

193
00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:42.779
So the actor, she's only like, she's only in it for 4 episodes.

194
00:12:42.840 --> 00:12:44.700
No, that puts a whole other complexion on it.

195
00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:46.200
Because that even more poignant?

196
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:49.620
Just someone slow talking who can barely understand what's going on.

197
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:50.700
Do you know what I mean?

198
00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:56.700
Like who is clearly on huge doses of Mogadon, you know, throughout the production.

199
00:12:56.820 --> 00:12:58.019
Well, metaphorically.

200
00:12:58.080 --> 00:12:59.759
How would you address a god?

201
00:12:59.820 --> 00:13:02.460
Well, I just wouldn't put that character in the show.

202
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.840
I just put that character in the show because I just think she would be boring.

203
00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:14.940
And I guess... tolerate her for 4 episodes, but she's replaced by someone in a sort of slinky cat suit with a big gun.

204
00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:18.659
And you've got to confess that that is a pretty significant improvement.

205
00:13:18.659 --> 00:13:23.100
It must be my my 2nd favourite thing. 1st favourite thing.

206
00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:24.899
So yeah, Gene Marsh, can you imagine?

207
00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:26.100
Yeah, I know who March.

208
00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:36.179
Sarah Kingdom is unquestionably a more interesting character and a more complex and narratively better character.

209
00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:49.019
Look what she does just in the space of this story, going from supreme ultra Vixenex space aviatrix, extraordinary cold-hearted killer to bestie of Billy.

210
00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.960
Yeah, yeah, trying to save...

211
00:13:53.220 --> 00:13:55.500
Okay, quick succession.

212
00:13:55.559 --> 00:14:02.820
So, I think we've put forward our defences or detractions of Catarina.

213
00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:03.539
So, okay.

214
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:07.139
I just want a yes or no in terms of this.

215
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.480
Right, gentlemen, catarina companion.

216
00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:09.960
Yes, sir.

217
00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:10.860
Delightful, absolutely.

218
00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:11.820
No.

219
00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.379
Yes, from me?

220
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.679
It's less time than Sarah Kingdom and Sarah Kingdom is not meant to be a computer.

221
00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:17.460
Not what she does.

222
00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:20.759
Look at the love she brings to the cast and what she does to...

223
00:14:20.820 --> 00:14:23.759
We wouldn't have a Doctor Who show if she hadn't chucked herself out the door.

224
00:14:23.820 --> 00:14:26.220
So next the doctor would be dead.

225
00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:28.200
Next you have to stop making it.

226
00:14:28.259 --> 00:14:29.279
Next question.

227
00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:31.919
Next question on the same line.

228
00:14:31.980 --> 00:14:34.320
Sarah Kingdom. companion or not?

229
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:36.179
Yes.

230
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:36.539
Okay.

231
00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:40.379
So, I used for that because she's so modern.

232
00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:41.340
She is fabulous.

233
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:43.139
What about Brett violently, modern.

234
00:14:43.259 --> 00:14:44.340
Well, isn't that interesting?

235
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:47.460
Everyone talks about this is the show that premiere is...

236
00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:49.740
And how hot is Nick Courtney?

237
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:50.639
He's very beautiful.

238
00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:52.080
As this.

239
00:14:52.139 --> 00:14:53.220
He's a matinee idol.

240
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.559
I'm a novello of the 60s.

241
00:14:55.620 --> 00:14:59.940
He's that lovely 1920s matinee idol when the term was coined.

242
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:07.500
He's actually got pretty much as much screen time as Katerina, and yet he gets a lot more attention in this as the scene as the introductory thing.

243
00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:08.279
And he's really good.

244
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:09.600
I mean he's fantastic.

245
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:10.559
Fantastic.

246
00:15:10.620 --> 00:15:13.980
But he's it's a very small part of them of the...

247
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:14.820
How many Dizzy-Doies?

248
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:16.500
Like in 3 episodes.

249
00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:21.059
No, he's in he's in the 1st 4 episodes because he's killed at the end of episode four.

250
00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:23.759
Whereas Katerina is killed partway through episode four.

251
00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:27.059
Yeah, so he gets about the same screen time as Cate, you know.

252
00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:28.799
But he has a great deal of power on the screen.

253
00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:34.860
He's the 1st man in the history of Bill's time, if not talk to whoever to tell the doctor to shut up.

254
00:15:34.919 --> 00:15:40.080
Yeah, we can pull a gun. listeners have probably said to this podcast.

255
00:15:40.080 --> 00:15:44.399
Sorry, I cut you off.

256
00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:45.059
Well, no, no, no.

257
00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:45.899
He comes in with a gun.

258
00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:49.379
He really takes control and this is where...

259
00:15:49.379 --> 00:15:50.399
Yeah, he does, doesn't he?

260
00:15:50.460 --> 00:15:52.200
Yeah, this is another thing about this story.

261
00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:53.639
Guns win over brain.

262
00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:54.779
Yeah, well, it's terry.

263
00:15:54.840 --> 00:16:01.500
Well, the thing is, the doctor does get the best over Brett, in that situation, he traps him in a chair.

264
00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:02.700
No, shut up.

265
00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:04.679
Yeah, well yeah.

266
00:16:04.740 --> 00:16:09.779
First of all, you know, you know, at the beginning of the scene, Brett Pynes says to the doctor, shut up.

267
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:13.799
And the doctor does shut up while Brett talks and then finally turns around and says, nails it.

268
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:16.860
Actually, we've got to stop the Dalek, so you shut up.

269
00:16:16.919 --> 00:16:28.559
And of course, when Brett does take control of the TARDIS, it's a bit like that quotation that Stephen Moffat's been putting out there recently, which is, you know, the doctor doesn't have superpowers.

270
00:16:28.620 --> 00:16:29.639
He has a screwdriver.

271
00:16:29.700 --> 00:16:32.159
The doctor doesn't have...

272
00:16:32.220 --> 00:16:33.299
Wasn't this a group?

273
00:16:33.299 --> 00:16:35.100
There's so many things to love about the heart or era.

274
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:36.299
No screwdriver.

275
00:16:36.419 --> 00:16:37.080
Yeah.

276
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.639
The doctor doesn't have a fast car.

277
00:16:38.700 --> 00:16:41.700
He has a box which has written on the front.

278
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.440
Please call me for help.

279
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:49.980
So, you know, the doctor, when faced by a gun, uses a magnetic chair.

280
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:54.720
And unlike in the Romans, he doesn't hit someone overhead with it.

281
00:16:54.779 --> 00:16:56.700
And it is magnetic, isn't it?

282
00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:57.960
It's a magic magnet.

283
00:16:58.019 --> 00:16:59.159
And it lands in the right place.

284
00:16:59.220 --> 00:17:04.079
So I still have this feeling that this is the kind of story that he's completely unsuited to.

285
00:17:04.140 --> 00:17:07.200
And, and...

286
00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.299
The Doctor Who doctor is unsuited to because World story where the guns, where it's all about guns.

287
00:17:12.299 --> 00:17:14.640
And it's a sort of, you know, Terry Nation.

288
00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:17.880
And this will come up in Blake 7 as well.

289
00:17:17.940 --> 00:17:29.460
Terry Nation constantly tries to aim at sort of tough and gritty and stuff like horrible Jenny in Dalek Invasion of Earth with her world weary cynicism and stuff.

290
00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:32.160
And he wants to do all of that sort of stuff.

291
00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:38.880
But he kind of swings and misses and always just sort of accidentally lands in camp, you know, like and...

292
00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:41.220
We are. you know, Blake 7 came up.

293
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:52.319
So, so with this, everyone's sort of, everyone's running around with guns and posturing and sort of being macho and the doctor doesn't really have a role in a story like this.

294
00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:54.660
The doctor's just constantly on the rum.

295
00:17:54.720 --> 00:18:04.380
Yeah, it might be important to note that Bill Hartle agreed with you and he was it was really at loggerheads with him that this is not Doctor Who and the kids are going to be, this is not the show we're supposed to be making.

296
00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:10.559
Yeah, it's not, you know, visiting strange new places and it's the doctors dropped in a space opera.

297
00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:11.759
And, you know, we have done that before.

298
00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:16.019
The doctors dropped in the earlier, the doctors dropped in in ancient Rome.

299
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:17.640
We're going to see the doctor dropped in a western.

300
00:18:17.700 --> 00:18:20.339
You know, like it is sort of something we've done before.

301
00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:27.539
But because it's because this is a space opera, because Doctor Who is sort of science fiction, it kind of skews the story a little bit.

302
00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:29.400
I really love that it does though.

303
00:18:29.460 --> 00:18:31.619
It really is one of my all time favourites.

304
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:39.720
And as I say, I only know it through audio and the brilliant Rosemary Howe novelisation of the late 70s, which is from the Australian Doctor Who fan club.

305
00:18:39.779 --> 00:18:40.500
Oh, that's right.

306
00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:47.279
And she was the 1st one to write this out just from screen notes and other fans, other people around the world have said, she's still alive.

307
00:18:47.339 --> 00:18:54.839
She's still with us, Tony Hall's mum. did a beautiful piece of writing and it really leaves the John Peel one where it should be, which is the back of the bookshelf.

308
00:18:54.900 --> 00:18:55.200
Sorry.

309
00:18:55.259 --> 00:18:56.940
But it's yeah, it's pretty awful.

310
00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:03.539
But yeah, Rosemary Howe's novelisation of this is the 1st time I ever came across it and I just loved this story because of her writing.

311
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:08.759
And then hearing the audio, it just, it just impacted on that even further.

312
00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:13.500
The audio, the BBC audio, I should say, did you say, Nathan, that that's available?

313
00:19:14.099 --> 00:19:16.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah. and you can buy it on audible and stuff.

314
00:19:16.140 --> 00:19:17.880
It's so worthless.

315
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:18.660
It's really great.

316
00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:21.599
It really is a lovely piece and you don't lose anything not having the visuals.

317
00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:22.380
Oh, really?

318
00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:23.819
Oh, that's absolutely not true.

319
00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.160
I see Doctor Who has 2 things and all a radio...

320
00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.920
Okay, yes, you're right, because this is, we haven't mentioned who directed this.

321
00:19:28.980 --> 00:19:29.519
No, we have.

322
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:31.559
It's Dougie Campfield, and it's spectacular.

323
00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:32.400
And he can do no wrong.

324
00:19:32.460 --> 00:19:33.660
Yeah, it's just great.

325
00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.799
So we've got 2 5 and 10. 25 and 10 of the existing episodes.

326
00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.200
There are clips from one that exist.

327
00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:43.799
And there's that long clip from episode four.

328
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:45.000
So spaceship screen.

329
00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:47.880
Yeah, there's lots of the model shots still exist.

330
00:19:47.940 --> 00:19:49.140
Really great.

331
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.700
The long clip from episode 4 that you were referring to earlier leading up to Katerina's death.

332
00:19:53.759 --> 00:20:01.200
We don't actually have her floating in space, but we have we have the 2 or 3 minutes leading up to it, which I believe we used on, they did.

333
00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:02.400
They actually shot.

334
00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.980
You know, you know that...

335
00:20:05.099 --> 00:20:05.940
You know the bits in it.

336
00:20:06.059 --> 00:20:15.059
You know bits in episode 5 with the with the teleporter sequence and Sarah and Stephen jumping up and down on trampolines.

337
00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.519
It's Adrian Hill jumping up and down on a trampoline.

338
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:23.099
Before we've even, we get to the mice and Douglas Adams.

339
00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.259
Can I just take a moment for us all?

340
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:29.519
Do you know who was meant to be in that airlock and sucked out into space?

341
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:30.420
Oh, yeah.

342
00:20:30.480 --> 00:20:31.559
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

343
00:20:31.619 --> 00:20:38.759
That was Maureen O'Brien's departure as organised and written in notes by John Wiles.

344
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:43.200
That's what he wanted to do to her, for complaining about her writing in galaxy.

345
00:20:43.259 --> 00:20:44.700
Sand for mentions that as well.

346
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:45.240
Does he?

347
00:20:45.299 --> 00:20:50.039
I've seen that in liner notes from naughty fan history that we're not supposed to be seeing.

348
00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:55.859
I've got that from early 80s liner notes from friends in GW from the club in England.

349
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.240
So that's been known for a long time.

350
00:20:57.359 --> 00:20:58.079
Goodness.

351
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.059
And Maureen has been such a diplomat.

352
00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:00.720
Never, never.

353
00:21:00.779 --> 00:21:01.920
I didn't know if she knew at the time.

354
00:21:02.099 --> 00:21:04.500
What does that say?

355
00:21:04.500 --> 00:21:12.299
For a children's document, for, you know, a drama, family drama, with a character that was so integral to the part to do that to her.

356
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:15.180
I think can I get all political?

357
00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:15.779
Yes, please.

358
00:21:15.839 --> 00:21:34.319
Because I think that, and this is a sort of standard thing as well, but you've had a character who represents modern youth, who has fermented revolution, and the 1st she's going to be flung out the airlock, and then we're going to proceed headlong into a series of sort of racist and, you know, barely defensible stories.

359
00:21:34.380 --> 00:21:38.819
I'm gonna, you know, nail my trousers to the master at this very moment.

360
00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.779
I think I think it would have been just nasty and mean-spirited.

361
00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:50.460
Then I also think that there is a problem in tone with Dialect master plan that it is too nasty.

362
00:21:50.519 --> 00:22:00.539
And particularly that, you know, that stupid planet, desperous, and Kirksen, and all of that sort of thing, that is really horrible and flushing around the airlock.

363
00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:05.460
And, you know, like eventually the things that happen to Sarah and all of that and we'll get there.

364
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:10.200
Like, I just think I just think it's getting too nasty for Doctor Who.

365
00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:18.420
And coming off, um, a story where all of the comedy characters have been brutally slaughtered in episode four.

366
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:19.559
Do you know what I mean?

367
00:22:19.619 --> 00:22:22.319
Like, and, you know, we're about to have the massacre.

368
00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:25.680
Yeah, we're about to have Peter Capaldi.

369
00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:28.140
We're recording this early August 2014.

370
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:35.400
Now, we already know, Mr. Capaldi himself has said, I don't want the doctor to be anything you've seen in recent times.

371
00:22:35.579 --> 00:22:38.039
And we've seen already some clips.

372
00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:40.079
We're heading up to a much darker season.

373
00:22:40.140 --> 00:22:42.299
What's your take on how dark Doctor Who should actually be?

374
00:22:42.359 --> 00:22:44.279
I don't think it will get as dark as this.

375
00:22:44.339 --> 00:22:44.880
Really?

376
00:22:44.880 --> 00:22:45.240
Yeah.

377
00:22:45.299 --> 00:22:54.599
Because I have to say, even though all of the things I've said about certainly the way that the female characters are treated in this makes me want to smack the table, this is, I love that it gets this dark.

378
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:59.220
And I because I love Blake 7 and I love when Terry Nation gets really...

379
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:00.720
But I don't think Blake 7 gets dark.

380
00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:05.759
I think Blake 7 is sort of undermined. 1st episode, he's tried for child abuse.

381
00:23:05.819 --> 00:23:06.000
Exactly.

382
00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:08.460
But the whole thing is sort of sort of camped and stupider.

383
00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:09.960
You can't really take it.

384
00:23:10.019 --> 00:23:10.619
No I suppose.

385
00:23:10.680 --> 00:23:15.119
But I'm very glad that you mentioned female characters because that's something I wanted to point out in this.

386
00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:18.359
Galaxy 4, obviously you have very strong female characters.

387
00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:21.059
Not necessarily very well drawn and complex.

388
00:23:21.059 --> 00:23:28.079
Marga's quite complex, but only complex compared to her drones who are by definition very simple characters.

389
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:32.279
It would have been appalling had they been anything other than horribly blonde.

390
00:23:32.339 --> 00:23:33.000
Yes.

391
00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:35.160
Scan Norwegian.

392
00:23:36.059 --> 00:23:37.799
Yeah, because that's really...

393
00:23:37.859 --> 00:23:41.339
Mission to the unknown, no female characters at all.

394
00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:42.960
And everyone gets killed.

395
00:23:43.019 --> 00:23:44.220
And everyone gets horribly killed.

396
00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.619
Yeah, well, with no women about, everyone gets killed.

397
00:23:46.740 --> 00:23:48.539
That's interesting.

398
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:50.700
Myth makers.

399
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:53.579
Arguably, the villain is female.

400
00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.819
Cassandra, I suppose, is very well played.

401
00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:59.279
Yeah, is actually the most volatile.

402
00:23:59.339 --> 00:24:00.420
Really a proper villain.

403
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.380
And hang on.

404
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:02.700
She's killed the spy.

405
00:24:02.759 --> 00:24:07.200
And then the next, the end of episode 3 or is it, is it episode 3 when you get the time coming up.

406
00:24:07.259 --> 00:24:09.480
She's saying, kill Vicky, take kill Chris.

407
00:24:09.539 --> 00:24:12.420
Death of a spy comes up. who gets killed instead?

408
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:14.640
Tilt a man.

409
00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:17.460
With an eye batch.

410
00:24:18.299 --> 00:24:21.180
You know, she's...

411
00:24:21.180 --> 00:24:23.640
She's as much of a villain as anyone is a villain.

412
00:24:23.700 --> 00:24:25.619
Yeah, he's actually pavilion historical.

413
00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:28.380
So he's turned around and she becomes... isn't she amazing?

414
00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.359
And then we get...

415
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:33.180
John, we get...

416
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:36.119
And then we get John Wiles in full control.

417
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:48.119
And aside from the companion characters, let's just say companion characters, because that does encompass Katerina, she plays the function of a companion, whether she's... companionoids.

418
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:50.819
We've got Lizan as a female character.

419
00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.880
We have Blossom Lefevre later on in the story.

420
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:55.200
But why?

421
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:55.859
Who's she?

422
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.400
That's about it.

423
00:24:56.460 --> 00:24:57.000
Will will get there.

424
00:24:57.059 --> 00:24:57.539
Oh, okay.

425
00:24:57.599 --> 00:24:59.039
But that's about it.

426
00:24:59.099 --> 00:25:04.079
You know, we don't have major female guest characters in this story.

427
00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:05.759
All the important goals.

428
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:07.440
We don't know, man, the gender of the mice.

429
00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:13.319
We don't know the gender of the mice or indeed the gender of the delegates.

430
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:15.539
Doesn't it make style?

431
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:16.500
They're all female.

432
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:18.599
Doesn't make style...

433
00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:22.319
Doesn't it make Star Wars 2 attack of the clones look even pancier than it actually is?

434
00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:23.339
This is a much better.

435
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:28.500
If you haven't watched, list, D listener, if you haven't watched Day of Armageddon, it's on YouTube.

436
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:29.339
This is episode two.

437
00:25:29.460 --> 00:25:30.779
It's also in Lost in Time.

438
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:31.019
Yeah.

439
00:25:31.079 --> 00:25:34.500
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. episode 2 of the Daleks Master Plan.

440
00:25:34.559 --> 00:25:37.500
Just honestly, I'm sorry, Mr. Lucas, this is actually a lot better.

441
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:39.420
It's so funny.

442
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.480
Like everyone's doing their most bizarre alien voice.

443
00:25:42.539 --> 00:25:43.380
Gorgeous.

444
00:25:43.440 --> 00:25:44.339
It's just gorgeous.

445
00:25:44.460 --> 00:25:50.279
And they all have different, they all have different body languages, different ways of walking and different responses to gravity.

446
00:25:50.339 --> 00:25:50.940
Yeah.

447
00:25:50.940 --> 00:25:54.539
And that wonderful sort of cone head one.

448
00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:56.039
I love the coding one.

449
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:56.940
Where's the cone head?

450
00:25:57.000 --> 00:26:05.940
I don't know, but when that cone head runs off, when the alarm goes off, the cone head one is going...

451
00:26:05.940 --> 00:26:07.559
Oh, he's really funny.

452
00:26:07.559 --> 00:26:09.539
That is your big tone.

453
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:12.000
Like a like a triangle iron.

454
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:13.259
It's really weird.

455
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:17.039
But there is that the thing in about time that which sodding delegate was which.

456
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:21.000
Because it just seems that the production team have kind of lost track of who.

457
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:22.680
They didn't really know either.

458
00:26:22.740 --> 00:26:28.920
Yeah, yeah. apparently the ones who were labelled in certain names in Mission to the Unknown are labelled as different names.

459
00:26:28.980 --> 00:26:31.680
But I mean, essentially, Alfred is still the one with Eczema, I believe.

460
00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:35.579
And that you've got Malpha and Zephon and Trance are the only ones that really matter, aren't they?

461
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.259
Yeah, well, Trantis is...

462
00:26:37.259 --> 00:26:37.799
He comes up later.

463
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.059
Is he the bunch of kale?

464
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:40.380
No, he...

465
00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:41.759
No, no, I think...

466
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:44.279
Zep, Zep, Zep, Zep.

467
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:47.640
Trantos is the minor from the Green Death.

468
00:26:48.059 --> 00:26:49.019
With the pointy did.

469
00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:54.119
If it is so round, why was not one of us asked to provide it?

470
00:26:54.180 --> 00:26:55.680
That's him.

471
00:26:55.740 --> 00:26:59.460
And then Chantis is the one who's white with balls all over him.

472
00:26:59.519 --> 00:27:00.539
No, no, no.

473
00:27:00.599 --> 00:27:04.619
Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, the scale.

474
00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:06.839
So who's the one who's the one with salation?

475
00:27:06.900 --> 00:27:09.119
It's the one with balls.

476
00:27:09.180 --> 00:27:10.380
Salation is covered in balls.

477
00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:15.059
And is the time destructure on the test, the time destructure on isolation.

478
00:27:15.119 --> 00:27:17.339
So, okay, so we know who Malfa is.

479
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:18.240
We know who Trent is.

480
00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:19.079
We know who Zephon is.

481
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:20.099
We know who salation is.

482
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.279
It's a rich cast of characters, isn't it?

483
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:23.880
That's not bad.

484
00:27:23.940 --> 00:27:25.380
No, that's right.

485
00:27:25.380 --> 00:27:27.480
But I'd love to know who the cone head guy is.

486
00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:29.640
Yeah, well, we've got the cone head guy.

487
00:27:29.700 --> 00:27:34.799
And we've got the sort of the sort of concertina fold guy.

488
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:37.019
The black concertina fold.

489
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:39.000
No, that's who I mean by the kind of head.

490
00:27:39.059 --> 00:27:43.559
No, I mean Conehead, as in like Jane Curtain, Dan Ackroyd Conehead.

491
00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:43.920
Oh, really?

492
00:27:43.920 --> 00:27:45.539
Yeah, she's got a big domey thing.

493
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:46.680
Yeah.

494
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:48.539
I mean, yeah, she does look feminine.

495
00:27:48.539 --> 00:27:49.859
No, so Concertina guy.

496
00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:54.420
He's my favourite one But getting back to the whole female question.

497
00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.859
The roles for women later on, as this series goes on, diminished terribly.

498
00:27:58.920 --> 00:28:00.779
Pointy teeth is Roy Evans, isn't he?

499
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:02.519
He's the minor in the green.

500
00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:03.480
Yeah, no, that's what it is.

501
00:28:03.539 --> 00:28:04.680
Were you here?

502
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:06.119
Oh, yeah, winner.

503
00:28:06.180 --> 00:28:07.140
I'll get there.

504
00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:08.220
I couldn't remember.

505
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.420
He's go to Welsh dude.

506
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:19.559
We're not quite in a chrotic history since, you know, Christopher Bidme is probably watching this at home going, well, that's just not scientifically accurate.

507
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:26.400
I just have to, I do have to say, I adore Christopher Bid Mead, and when we get to season 18, I have a Christopher Bid Mead story.

508
00:28:26.460 --> 00:28:27.119
Oh, do you?

509
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:27.900
I do indeed.

510
00:28:28.019 --> 00:28:41.039
But I do agree with you that Doctor Who gets really nasty this year and I have a hard time watching Doctor Who this year for the same reason that as well written as the scripts are towards the end of Peter Davidson.

511
00:28:41.099 --> 00:28:51.420
I have a very hard time with them because that's another time that Doctor Who gets very, very dark and it's just the sort of attitude of bad things happen and the doctor can't always sort them out.

512
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:59.579
And that's very much the thing here of, it gets to the point where the doctor's like, I, you know, I can't sort this out here.

513
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:01.799
I need to nick this spaceship and I need to go somewhere else.

514
00:29:01.859 --> 00:29:04.200
And oh, right, now we can get back into the TARDIS.

515
00:29:04.259 --> 00:29:06.119
I need to go into the Tartars and we just have to run.

516
00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:15.180
And people, you know, people get hideously killed along the way. considering the Egypt episodes, where, you know, all these...

517
00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:15.960
Gosh, this is...

518
00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:17.579
Pyramid builder slaves.

519
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:29.819
There's so much a story of its time with, again, the Gaza problem that we're seeing right now being reflected in the story, but the whole terrainian Corbit being, you know, the uranium 238, I believe it was.

520
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:36.660
And all of that height singers, um, So it is a kind of nuclear thing, isn't it?

521
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:38.220
It is a nuclear thing.

522
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:39.180
It's got a core.

523
00:29:39.299 --> 00:29:45.000
Yeah, it's got a name that sounds like a cross between Terry Nation and uranium, right?

524
00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:46.500
So it's called terranium.

525
00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:51.059
And originally viterranium, but apparently changed because Billy couldn't say it.

526
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:52.019
Oh, really?

527
00:29:52.019 --> 00:29:53.700
Sarah Kingdom terry nation.

528
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:54.720
Are you hearing?

529
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:59.759
Yeah, everyone's called Tariff. to throw in and say, did you know Terry Nation objected to the killing off of the character?

530
00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:02.940
He actually wanted her to stay as a companion and wrote it as such.

531
00:30:03.000 --> 00:30:05.460
And it was wild, who just loves killing off women.

532
00:30:05.519 --> 00:30:06.299
Oh, did I say that?

533
00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:07.799
seems to be the way.

534
00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:10.680
Well, no, no, she was killing off strong and interesting women.

535
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:12.720
And Adrian Hill.

536
00:30:12.779 --> 00:30:15.240
The Dalek Art of Space, stop it.

537
00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:22.920
The Dalek Art of Spacebook, his premise for his new show, The Disruptors, has Sarah in it with a new brother, this time called David.

538
00:30:22.980 --> 00:30:25.619
But the, yeah, he, he, he, the vision was.

539
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:28.920
Sarah would be an ongoing character, as far as the script writer.

540
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:29.579
Yeah, yeah.

541
00:30:29.640 --> 00:30:37.380
And of course, originally in Terry Nations script, Brett Vine wasn't Sarah's brother, he was her boyfriend.

542
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.519
Oh, you won't have boyfriends in Doctor Who.

543
00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:43.859
Well, I think I think the actual show, isn't it?

544
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:50.579
I think the actual language in the script, because Terry thought, you know, this is one. 5 no, this is 2000 years in the future.

545
00:30:50.700 --> 00:30:56.279
The original language you used in the script in episode five, Sarah says, Brett Bayern was my lover.

546
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.700
Yeah, that actually would have been a lot more interesting.

547
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:01.440
Yeah, and that's why they have different surnames.

548
00:31:01.859 --> 00:31:05.519
No, and I have a different surname from my sister as well.

549
00:31:05.579 --> 00:31:07.980
Oh, well, because she got married.

550
00:31:08.039 --> 00:31:09.059
Oh, yes.

551
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:11.880
That's true.

552
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:13.440
But there's there's no...

553
00:31:13.440 --> 00:31:15.180
So maybe there's a mystic kingdom somewhere.

554
00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:17.880
He's probably a milkman or something.

555
00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:19.920
Zookeeper.

556
00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:25.500
A bit like Fargo where the detective's husband paints stamps.

557
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:26.220
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

558
00:31:26.279 --> 00:31:32.940
And so she goes off a hard day being a sort of space security agent and gunning people down and then comes into bed and they talk about their day.

559
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:34.259
And he's had a terrible day.

560
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.640
He gave someone 2 Greek yoghurts when it was meant to be too regular yoghurt.

561
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:46.079
This is this is the story where, and the reason I think it works is that you get these chiara scuro contrasts.

562
00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:56.700
It's a really high Renaissance painting of the, or actually, it's like a Goya painting, actually, of the really savage depiction of drama and the goodness of people that comes out in that.

563
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:01.680
This is probably some of Billy's finest moments in this in self-sacrifice.

564
00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:07.680
And this is also the story where he says, quote, I am a citizen of the universe and a gentleman to boot.

565
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:17.039
And yeah, there's some really lovely moments for the definition of the character of the doctor in this. despite, or maybe because of the horrible things that are going on around him.

566
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:32.400
Yeah, I mean, it does, I mean, it sort of cast simmers, you know, he'll eventually become the hero of these sort of space adventures, you know, and like in the 70s, we'll always be landing on spaceships and there'll be ray guns and then the doctor will be the hero.

567
00:32:32.460 --> 00:32:34.920
Do you not think this is a story where...

568
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:36.660
Yes, this is the story where it starts to happen.

569
00:32:36.779 --> 00:32:38.880
It's really bad at it in this story.

570
00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:39.779
Yeah, he's uncomfortable.

571
00:32:39.900 --> 00:32:41.160
That's what I like.

572
00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:43.380
He's blocking his way through and he gets it wrong.

573
00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:45.720
It's desperate and it's desperation, I suppose.

574
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.980
I suppose that's good in a way.

575
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:50.160
But at the end when he goes such a terrible waste.

576
00:32:50.220 --> 00:32:59.099
Well, I suppose, I suppose in a way, you have to say that, yeah, this story does succeed because you feel so much of the death and the destruction in it.

577
00:32:59.160 --> 00:33:05.339
You have an emotional resonance with it, which, to be fair, you don't often say about a Terry Nation script.

578
00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:09.299
You know, people don't usually use the words tearing nation and emotional resonance together.

579
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.859
But it does happen here.

580
00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:16.559
As we've just touched on, a lot of the stuff may not have actually been nationed, but Miles and Spooner and Josh.

581
00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:22.619
So we wander away from that whole Terry Nation script for a while and we do get a little bit of a relief.

582
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:27.960
But as you pointed out, like we go to ancient Egypt for 2 episodes and there's a lot of killing and stuff like that.

583
00:33:28.019 --> 00:33:29.519
But we do have Peter Butterworth.

584
00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:30.900
We get the meddling mob.

585
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:31.619
We get the money back.

586
00:33:31.619 --> 00:33:33.059
And that's really terrific.

587
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:36.480
And there's that superb cliffhanger, which has got to be Spooner.

588
00:33:36.539 --> 00:33:40.799
You know, the mummy... comes out of the theme.

589
00:33:41.039 --> 00:34:00.000
And it turns out that it's, it's, it's the monk, that the doctor has beaten up and wrapped in, in sort of bandages and shelved in a sarcophagus and all of that stuff's terribly funny and terribly light and you get, you get the doctor fiddling with the monks TARDIS and turning it into like a motorcycle and various other things. block of ice.

590
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:02.279
Yeah, all of that stuff's really fun.

591
00:34:02.279 --> 00:34:04.079
And then he steals the directional thing.

592
00:34:04.079 --> 00:34:08.219
And we kind of need that because the doctor can't steal the target, but we have to get back to Campbell somehow.

593
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:10.739
Felicity Campbell.

594
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:11.579
Felicity Campbell.

595
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:16.139
And so all of that stuff's really light and we haven't talked about episode seven.

596
00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:17.760
The Christmas special.

597
00:34:17.820 --> 00:34:20.099
Which is where Blossom La Favre comes in.

598
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:22.739
Is she a silent film actress, yeah.

599
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:23.940
And yeah, episode seven.

600
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:44.099
It's a wonderful idea to have this Christmas episode because John Well suddenly looked at the schedule and went, not only do I have to put up with this 12 episode story that's been commissioned, that we don't have scripts for, there's an episode that's going to be going out on Christmas Day, and our ratings will drop.

601
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.260
We can't have a part of the main narrative.

602
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:47.699
What are we going to do?

603
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:58.260
Let's have a Christmas episode, which the very 1st Doctor Who Christmas episode, which also does what you were saying about a story last season, Richard.

604
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:01.139
It does other TV shows and films.

605
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:02.400
It does Zed cars.

606
00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:05.280
It does silent film.

607
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:06.719
Dixon of Dockroom.

608
00:35:06.780 --> 00:35:08.219
Dixon of Dot Green.

609
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:15.900
Now, this may just be rumour, but I've heard it reported as a fact that much like the Beatles.

610
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:20.340
Originally, the police officers were meant to be the cast of Zedcars.

611
00:35:20.400 --> 00:35:21.599
Oh that's right.

612
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:22.619
They were.

613
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:24.420
Yeah, and the cast were up for it.

614
00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:27.719
And again, it was the producer of Zed cars who said, no, you can't send this up like that.

615
00:35:28.440 --> 00:35:31.860
The thing is, they, you know, they weren't really being sent up.

616
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.119
But I love the lead into it that the doctor's like, oh, the atmosphere is toxic outside.

617
00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:38.699
And then by way of explanation, the doctor says, you 2 are from the future.

618
00:35:38.820 --> 00:35:39.960
Your air's been purified.

619
00:35:40.019 --> 00:35:41.340
You can't step out in Liverpool.

620
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:50.699
And there's all that comedy business that we'll see a bit more of later on as Stephen not understanding modern day earth.

621
00:35:51.480 --> 00:36:00.659
And yeah, then we then we get the whole silent film bit, which would have been absolutely wonderful and apparently it had captions and it's got...

622
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:06.420
I'm really sad we don't get Gene Mush straddling the light on top of the TARDIS and trying to fix that.

623
00:36:06.480 --> 00:36:07.380
Remember, she was the one.

624
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:09.000
Yeah, she does right on the right one.

625
00:36:09.059 --> 00:36:12.119
She's fabulous in that sequence, in that stuff in Liverpool.

626
00:36:12.179 --> 00:36:13.679
She's hilarious with the cops.

627
00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:14.579
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

628
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:15.179
She's terrific.

629
00:36:15.300 --> 00:36:17.699
Strange man kept telling me to take my clothes.

630
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:20.579
Oh, that's later in the films.

631
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:21.840
I do Becky Harvey.

632
00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.659
Yeah, I said watch the reconstruction, just the audios as usual.

633
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:26.940
There is a sort of crummy...

634
00:36:26.940 --> 00:36:29.340
It's all right, but it's animation.

635
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.599
Yeah, it's not done.

636
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:31.800
Very high quality.

637
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.659
Yeah, the animated version commissioned by Ian Levine isn't too bad.

638
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:39.840
It's not as good as the mission to the unknown animation.

639
00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:42.420
It's done by a different animator.

640
00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:44.760
And if you're listening and you're the animator, I do apologise.

641
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:45.960
Yeah, it's fantastic.

642
00:36:46.019 --> 00:36:46.500
We love it.

643
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:49.559
Well, you know, it's, as I say, it's not bad.

644
00:36:49.619 --> 00:36:53.400
It's just not animated in my personal, to my personal taste.

645
00:36:53.460 --> 00:36:59.579
Oh, I watched the recon on the recons perfectly serviceable, and the recon does do the caption slides and everything.

646
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:03.719
Like it, uh, you know, it's, it is just terrifically fun and funny.

647
00:37:03.780 --> 00:37:05.579
And you are, like, what are you going to do?

648
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:13.980
Like, are you going to have like a green, dark, terry nation, you know, gunfest with Daleks murdering kind of delegates, you know, on Christmas Day?

649
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:14.760
That's no good.

650
00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:17.099
The Daleks just don't appear at all.

651
00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:17.880
No.

652
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:26.820
And then, of course, it's got that classic moment at the end, which we reenacted earlier with our champagne, where William Hartnell toasts the audience.

653
00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:28.440
He does. breaks the wall.

654
00:37:28.500 --> 00:37:35.400
And I just hate now how that's sort of been recon by members of the production team saying, oh, you know, it was an ad lib and we didn't ask Billy to do that.

655
00:37:35.460 --> 00:37:36.659
It's in the script.

656
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:39.420
It could have been cut very easily.

657
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:52.440
You know, okay, it would have cost £100 to cut it or however much it cost to edit video back then, but it could have been cut, and it was a common thing for programs to do at that stage for the stars to break the 4th wall.

658
00:37:52.500 --> 00:38:03.719
I mean, you know, like for the rest of its run, Doctor Who has been so firmly and strictly realist that the idea that someone would turn to the audience and toast them, that's appalling.

659
00:38:03.780 --> 00:38:04.980
We can't possibly have that.

660
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.500
Even the Sonic Screwdriver...

661
00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:09.960
And you kind of alluded to this earlier.

662
00:38:10.019 --> 00:38:14.699
The reason that works is because it's so completely necessary for the rest of this plot.

663
00:38:14.760 --> 00:38:17.340
You need that light relief. break, yeah.

664
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:19.440
The balance of the dark is so very dark.

665
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:21.300
I love to see that episode.

666
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:23.280
It's the one I really would like to see.

667
00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:25.199
Is that the one that you're least likely to do?

668
00:38:25.260 --> 00:38:25.440
Exactly.

669
00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:27.360
I just want to see how Canfield carried it off.

670
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.300
Because you know he would have made an absolute treasure of it.

671
00:38:30.360 --> 00:38:31.440
It would have been a...

672
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:40.500
It's interesting that Dougie Canfield himself who apparently wrote the breaking the 4th wall, dotted a camera scene of and toasting the audience.

673
00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:52.380
He was doing a lot of rewriting and often on set, and he was notorious for folding up a £one note, which was a lot in those days, and holding up and saying, who's got the best resolution for this problem?

674
00:38:52.380 --> 00:38:57.000
Because they were often working with a script that was barely structured out.

675
00:38:57.059 --> 00:39:04.679
This is almost improv theatre, which is why so much of it is so fresh to listen to now. then slightly pants.

676
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:09.539
I was a slightly padded, which can produce some really interesting results.

677
00:39:09.659 --> 00:39:11.400
Hopefully like this podcast.

678
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:18.119
So obviously the following episode goes out on New Year's, day, New Zealand.

679
00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:18.719
I suppose so.

680
00:39:18.780 --> 00:39:22.019
26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31.

681
00:39:22.260 --> 00:39:23.880
Okay.

682
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:28.320
We should really know. every year, actually. happens on the same date.

683
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:38.219
But the fun thing is, of course, that that ends, like they go to the oval and stuff and then there's some stuff is Trantis, they're experimenting with the training court.

684
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:39.360
They have the training core.

685
00:39:39.420 --> 00:39:41.099
Yeah, they've give it up.

686
00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:43.079
No, they're still a fake one.

687
00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:44.519
So when do they get the real one?

688
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:45.480
Oh god.

689
00:39:45.539 --> 00:39:47.400
There's too many episodes in this.

690
00:39:47.460 --> 00:39:49.139
I can't remember That's the thing.

691
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:50.760
A lot of lather rinse repeat.

692
00:39:50.820 --> 00:39:51.360
Yeah, yes.

693
00:39:51.420 --> 00:39:53.699
So they've got one of the terranium courses.

694
00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:56.219
Yeah, because the fake terranium core does work very briefly.

695
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:06.659
And there's the thing I love about the fake geranium core is when they're figuring out how they can, because the doctors made the fake geranium core.

696
00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:07.980
It's like, how do I charge this up?

697
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:10.500
And Stephen says, oh, well, if we attach it to the engine, we can do this.

698
00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:15.480
And Stephen's from the future, but Sarah's from even further in the future and goes, that's a stupid idea.

699
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:17.400
Yeah, they actually both make fun of him.

700
00:40:17.460 --> 00:40:18.840
Don't they both gang up on Steven?

701
00:40:18.900 --> 00:40:20.280
Yeah, they both gang up on Stephen.

702
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:23.820
So he electrocutes himself to prove a point. and makes it work.

703
00:40:23.880 --> 00:40:29.519
And I think it's a weird moment, but it's another moment of...

704
00:40:29.519 --> 00:40:34.019
It is a moment of levity because it's Steven's pride has been hurt by a woman.

705
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.420
So he's going to show her. a Homer Simpson moment.

706
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.340
And he spends a whole episode like being executed, being electrocuted, doesn't he?

707
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:45.539
being sluggish and knowing what's going on. also having a shield around him.

708
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.039
God, yeah, that's right.

709
00:40:47.099 --> 00:40:50.579
Well, who's going to question the ropey science at this point?

710
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.280
But you love the ice soldiers of mariners.

711
00:40:53.340 --> 00:40:57.480
So don't don't don't don't you groan about someone having a personal course field.

712
00:40:57.539 --> 00:41:00.780
So, so, oh, yes, it actually saves him, does it?

713
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:02.099
It actually ends up saving it.

714
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.500
It saves them all and lets them get back to the TARDIS.

715
00:41:04.559 --> 00:41:05.460
Yes, what nonsense.

716
00:41:05.519 --> 00:41:09.239
So it is the fake core that they have in episode eight.

717
00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:12.480
Yes, because they can test it on Tractus, but that's not the power.

718
00:41:12.539 --> 00:41:13.260
Yeah, yeah.

719
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:15.539
Well, I don't think it works on chance, don't they?

720
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:17.039
They're forced to kind of shoot him.

721
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:17.760
Oh yeah, that's right.

722
00:41:17.820 --> 00:41:18.300
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

723
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:23.219
But, uh, and then that's when the Dalek Time machine is sent after them.

724
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:25.199
So this is when the chase part 2 begins.

725
00:41:25.260 --> 00:41:34.320
So, you know, they encounter the monk in episode A on the planet, Tigers, and the episode ends with them.

726
00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.860
They land in the present day, like on New Year's Eve.

727
00:41:37.920 --> 00:41:40.320
They land a few hours before broadcast.

728
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:45.659
Like, are they in Trafanada Square or something, and we know that the Daleks are on their way.

729
00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:51.960
So it's like the Daleks, like episode 8 ends with this at a fun moment where the Daleks are heading towards us.

730
00:41:52.860 --> 00:41:58.559
In the audience, you know, to destroy the museum, which I just think is sort of terrifically fun.

731
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:07.079
And then we get the 2 episodes in ancient Egypt and then we're back to the grim dark planet of Gemble all over again.

732
00:42:07.139 --> 00:42:12.960
Terry Nation script was in fact 24 pages when delivered.

733
00:42:13.019 --> 00:42:13.920
Spoon.

734
00:42:13.980 --> 00:42:15.239
Okay, so I was wrong in that regard?

735
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:15.900
Not at all.

736
00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:17.280
Spooner, they're double-sided.

737
00:42:18.900 --> 00:42:24.960
Spooner had worked with Nation before and wasn't at all surprised, but it was delivered on it in a taxi.

738
00:42:25.019 --> 00:42:27.300
It had glorious notes of spaceships.

739
00:42:27.420 --> 00:42:42.059
It apparently had all the delegates defined and it had a lengthy description of Vicki's death with, and I'll quote, a seraphic Mona Lisa smile on her lips as she floats out of the airlock.

740
00:42:42.119 --> 00:42:42.960
Thank you, Terry.

741
00:42:43.019 --> 00:42:47.219
So that's pretty much all that Spooner and Tosh got.

742
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:48.900
This is a Spooner and Tosh script.

743
00:42:48.960 --> 00:42:55.440
So anything that will mean something to you now, dear listener, as you've heard us go on about, say these things in the past, dear.

744
00:42:55.559 --> 00:43:07.860
All of that stuff where you're talking about the bantering episode one where the 2 people are talking about, how much they like, um, how much they like, Mavic Chan, whom we haven't even mentioned.

745
00:43:07.860 --> 00:43:10.559
Do you know his original name was Boonehong?

746
00:43:11.039 --> 00:43:14.219
In in nation script, yeah.

747
00:43:14.820 --> 00:43:18.539
Yeah, aside from the roles of women, we're about to get onto the other thing.

748
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:22.920
Is he he's in blackface, isn't he?

749
00:43:24.119 --> 00:43:28.679
We like to think he's blue, that it's not racist, that he's a blue person from the future.

750
00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:31.500
See, I do think in...

751
00:43:31.500 --> 00:43:34.320
In some way, because...

752
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:39.780
He's the Mekon from Dan Deer that is green in that with the same epicath involved.

753
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:42.659
Yeah, he really is, this question.

754
00:43:42.659 --> 00:43:45.960
He's got fingernails, giant fingernails, because it's...

755
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.000
It's the yellow peril, isn't it?

756
00:43:48.059 --> 00:43:48.719
Oh, yeah.

757
00:43:48.780 --> 00:43:49.199
Yeah, yeah.

758
00:43:49.260 --> 00:43:51.119
It's a colo. the Comi peril.

759
00:43:51.539 --> 00:43:52.619
It's the Comi peril.

760
00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:55.739
You've got like being the merciless and stuff.

761
00:43:55.800 --> 00:44:01.380
You know, they're always slightly, like it is that sort of scary oriental thing and he is called Chen after all.

762
00:44:01.619 --> 00:44:08.400
And his saxophone is Fu Manchu from the 1912 novel, the same.

763
00:44:08.460 --> 00:44:15.239
So it is, it's just sort of weird, lazy racism, but he, he's so superb.

764
00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:17.039
He's so tremendous.

765
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:18.179
That's the thing, isn't it?

766
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:22.139
It's like, yeah, this is racist, but it's actually a really good performance.

767
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:25.860
Yes, because he does nuance and over the top in both hands.

768
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:29.219
Yeah, he doesn't do any comedy accents or anything.

769
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:30.780
And you get this, I think that's the big thing.

770
00:44:30.840 --> 00:44:31.380
He doesn't.

771
00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:38.280
He's got he's got the makeup, but he doesn't do the thing that would later be problematic for John Bennett.

772
00:44:38.340 --> 00:44:49.079
He doesn't do the sort of stereotype racist Johnny Chinaman accent and I use that inadverted commas because that is how it was referred to.

773
00:44:49.260 --> 00:44:54.119
No, in fact, it's a great performance because he's massively suave and in control.

774
00:44:54.179 --> 00:44:56.340
He's really, really funny actually.

775
00:44:56.400 --> 00:45:04.199
He doesn't quite get the Tobias Vaughan thing, which will get in a couple of years time, because we'll say bring him back for another giant epic story to be the villain.

776
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:11.400
Um, He doesn't do that, Tobias, fallen thing, of being hilariously amused when he's being foughted, which I just think is spectacular.

777
00:45:11.579 --> 00:45:15.119
But he's completely in control.

778
00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:20.760
And, you know, like even when he doesn't manage, you know, he loses the doctor on the planet mirror.

779
00:45:20.820 --> 00:45:22.139
There's all these stuff ups and stuff.

780
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:33.420
But he manages to cover it up and he manages to be sort of terribly suave until the very end, until those last 2 episodes or so where he just kind of loses it and his surplus to requirements.

781
00:45:33.420 --> 00:45:46.860
And, you know, what the Daleks have imprisoned all of the other delegates, but he's sort of lauding it over them and then, you know, he, they pretend to let the delegates escape, but blow them up, but Chen sort of somehow escapes and he's menacing.

782
00:45:46.920 --> 00:45:52.739
You know, he can't believe the Badaleks don't need him and he thinks he's going to take over from them and stuff.

783
00:45:52.800 --> 00:45:54.599
And he does go crazy at the end.

784
00:45:54.659 --> 00:45:55.619
But it is a terrific.

785
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:58.679
It's a terrific through line, like a really great fun performance.

786
00:45:58.739 --> 00:46:08.699
He's such an amazing character in that, you know, a lot of characters think they can better the daleks and end up failing.

787
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:14.940
But this is the only character where you think actually genuinely deep down to the core of his being, he thinks he can do it.

788
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.599
You know, most people when they when they try and double cross Daleks.

789
00:46:18.659 --> 00:46:23.579
You know, they have their doubts and they're hoping they can get through, whereas Maverick Cham is just like, no, of course I can do that.

790
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:25.260
I'm Mavic Chan.

791
00:46:25.320 --> 00:46:26.760
Magic, magic.

792
00:46:26.820 --> 00:46:32.159
I mean, right from his very 1st appearance where he's being interviewed on the TV news and you've got people talking about how wonderful he is.

793
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:33.059
He's a rock star.

794
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:34.380
He's the rock star president.

795
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:36.420
He's he's Barack Obama.

796
00:46:37.980 --> 00:46:38.820
Tony Blair.

797
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.099
Well, early Tony Black.

798
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:42.059
Yeah, that's right.

799
00:46:42.539 --> 00:46:46.440
But I am simply talking about the media machine rub than any politics involved.

800
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:49.260
But yeah, he's the rock star president.

801
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:50.519
Yeah, no.

802
00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:51.659
He's there for Beabot Rocks.

803
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:52.079
There you go.

804
00:46:52.139 --> 00:46:52.619
That's it.

805
00:46:52.679 --> 00:46:54.539
I mean, he's wonderful.

806
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:56.280
He's absolutely superb.

807
00:46:56.340 --> 00:46:57.960
He's the master of the 60s.

808
00:46:58.019 --> 00:47:01.139
And as you glued it too earlier, there's a lot of the dialogue.

809
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:05.940
A lot of the dialogue in this is actually lifted straight off and put into Dogado.

810
00:47:05.940 --> 00:47:08.880
Kevin Stony even says, you will obey me.

811
00:47:08.940 --> 00:47:10.619
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

812
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:19.739
Oh, and I think the master has a fun line in sort of going hysterical when his alien allies kind of sort of turn on him in episodes 6 or 4 or whatever.

813
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:28.440
And I guess, I mean, that's, we're kind of talking about the last few episodes, episodes.

814
00:47:28.500 --> 00:47:31.800
We've always proceeded in a rough order.

815
00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:34.500
What do you think about talking about the time destructor then?

816
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.380
So one of the great things about the recon.

817
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:39.179
I hadn't seen the recons before.

818
00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:40.619
I had heard the audio a lot.

819
00:47:40.679 --> 00:47:49.079
I was really impressed watching the recons with the Qic design stuff and how consistent it was with the look he'd given the Daleks in the previous stories.

820
00:47:49.139 --> 00:47:51.420
So the Dalek Time machine looks the same.

821
00:47:51.480 --> 00:47:56.639
Even though sort of crazy, you know, the gear team doors?

822
00:47:56.699 --> 00:48:08.460
No, yeah, yeah, the doors and the and the outlines of the doorways and stuff, which we commented on in the Daleks, you know, they were sort of strange and sort of unworldly and things, you know, not not human.

823
00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:09.719
And they're all there.

824
00:48:09.780 --> 00:48:17.639
When Chen leads Stephen and Sarah down down the passageway to the Dalek base at the end of episode 11.

825
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.219
It's through a corridor that looks like that.

826
00:48:20.280 --> 00:48:22.980
It was wonderful to see all of all of that stuff.

827
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:27.059
The recons, though, do something sort of massively clever though.

828
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:40.559
And that's, you remember they get the sort of time destructor, which is kind of weird and the scary, you know, it makes a noise and it's like, it's, it's, and it's very deep bass noise.

829
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:42.659
It sort of sits in your gut when you hear it.

830
00:48:42.659 --> 00:48:47.760
And it just runs for minutes and minutes around the soundtrack, like it's all the way through the end of the thing.

831
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:51.059
And, you know, they're trying to escape with it.

832
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:56.159
I can't remember what they want to do. they think they can disable it when they get to the TARDIS or something. can't remember.

833
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:57.659
Yeah, that's the thing.

834
00:48:57.780 --> 00:48:59.400
It's kind of like we can't switch it off where we are.

835
00:48:59.460 --> 00:49:02.099
And we can't leave the Daleks with it.

836
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:09.480
So let's let's take it and hope that, but also, you know, taking it doesn't enhance its effect.

837
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:12.059
It's affecting the whole planet, I think.

838
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:20.699
And so, and so they're running through the, the, um, the jungle and Sarah's getting affected by it.

839
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:27.840
And what the recon people do is they use a photograph of Gene Marsh, like a recent photograph of Gene Marsh.

840
00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:33.239
Yeah, yeah. you know, a particularly bad one of her with added lines and what happened.

841
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:33.960
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

842
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:55.860
Like, I mean, Gene Marsh is, you know, a striking and gorgeous and attractive woman, but she's, you know, this is... that's right This is a long time ago and she was silky hot catsuit, Emma Peel, sort of Kathy Gale anyway, sort of, um, uh, you know, heroin, um, and she just ages before our eyes and it's really, really horrifying.

843
00:49:55.920 --> 00:50:04.800
And I actually found that a lot more horrifying than sort of strange brushhead wig thing that she ends up wearing when she, when she sort of finally crawling across the sand and dying.

844
00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:05.760
Yeah.

845
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:19.260
And, well, I mean, what I what I find amazing is, um, In in the audio, it comes across that when the doctor tries to help her, she pushes him away, like she's like, no, you keep going.

846
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:22.320
She calls out to him, like, help, I'm in pain.

847
00:50:22.380 --> 00:50:23.820
But then she's like, no, you keep going.

848
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:25.679
And then when Stephen tries to help the doctor.

849
00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:28.260
Just the fury in Billy's voice.

850
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:28.980
No, get back.

851
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.960
It's like, you know, Katerina's already sacrificed herself.

852
00:50:34.019 --> 00:50:35.639
The doctor and Sarah are ready to die as well.

853
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:38.460
And then Sarah dies and the doctor lives.

854
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:45.900
And it's a bit like when Douglas Canfield decided to show the Daleks as these sort of starfish creatures.

855
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:48.659
Yeah, sort of embryos.

856
00:50:48.719 --> 00:50:50.099
We go back in time a bit or something.

857
00:50:50.159 --> 00:51:04.920
Well, he's like, I think I've read an interview somewhere where either Terry Nation or Dennis, someone who was involved in the creative process, their thought was with the Daleks, because in sort of the mind of the 60s, unless they're destroyed Dalek through Immortal.

858
00:51:04.980 --> 00:51:08.460
Instead of just ageing the Daleks, they decided to evolve the Daleks.

859
00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:09.719
So what the Daleks will become.

860
00:51:09.840 --> 00:51:14.099
The Daleks hint in the story that the doctor is more than human.

861
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.980
And so he's from another galaxy or something and he's a time thing.

862
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.739
Sarah, ages to death.

863
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:24.719
The Daleks age 1000000s of years.

864
00:51:24.780 --> 00:51:26.820
The doctor falls over.

865
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.320
You know, it...

866
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:40.440
It does that one thing at least in reestablishing the mystery of the character, because the mystery, the character is a bit gone because the mystery entirely depended on Ian Barbara kind of going, oh, we don't know who he is.

867
00:51:40.500 --> 00:51:44.280
And that mystery, sort of for a curious child.

868
00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:47.340
Not a lot of children would have thought, well, why did why did the doctor die?

869
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:48.659
Because he's much older than Sarah.

870
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.960
He should have died...

871
00:51:52.019 --> 00:51:55.079
Yeah, there's a 1st intimation that there's something about him.

872
00:51:55.800 --> 00:52:03.840
Um, there is sort of literature at the time where I think Variety Lambert and William Hart will both refer to him as being several 100 years old.

873
00:52:03.900 --> 00:52:05.280
Yeah.

874
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.119
But I could be wrong.

875
00:52:06.179 --> 00:52:09.840
Certainly, Patrick Trouchon refers to him as being several hundreds, so.

876
00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:10.320
Yeah.

877
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:10.739
Yeah.

878
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:20.940
So I think the other thing too is that the Campbell, you know, the fact that the Planet Campbell, which was 1st introduced to us, like months ago in mission to the unknown, somewhere that we've been...

879
00:52:21.000 --> 00:52:27.239
Yeah, yeah, we've been to it 3 times or something like that and we've been back all the time over the last 3 months.

880
00:52:27.300 --> 00:52:28.260
Yes, unheard of.

881
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:31.260
Yeah, it's been the backdrop and it's completely destroyed as well.

882
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:40.440
And like, like we get this sort of desert background now, like the jungle with its the BBC sound effects record and stuff is completely gone.

883
00:52:40.500 --> 00:52:48.119
And so all of that is like it's a huge, and we've already said, you know, mission to the unknown, everyone gets killed.

884
00:52:48.179 --> 00:52:50.760
Mythmaker, because everyone gets killed.

885
00:52:50.820 --> 00:53:12.239
You know, all this whole thing ends with them talking about all the people like Brett and Sarah and Katerina who've died, you know, so again, like the doctor kind of prevents the Daleks invading the galaxy or whatever it is they want to do, but the whole emphasis of that final scene is on all of the people that he failed to save.

886
00:53:12.300 --> 00:53:19.559
And so the whole story has been the whole show has been, had these sort of series of successive, miserable endings.

887
00:53:20.099 --> 00:53:24.480
And it is just the way things are going.

888
00:53:24.539 --> 00:53:25.079
Fortunately.

889
00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:27.719
The next story is called the massacre.

890
00:53:27.780 --> 00:53:29.039
So it's fine.

891
00:53:29.099 --> 00:53:31.139
Well, it's a laugh a minute.

892
00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:42.300
No, I just I think this is a great celebration of what the show can do that it hasn't done before and just how it can be any other thing.

893
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:54.719
Right now it's being Heisenberg and the Manhattan Project and it's being the communist threat now from China as much as Soviet Russia, which is, I think, where Matic Chin is coming from.

894
00:53:54.780 --> 00:53:57.599
But at the same time, it's being Dan Dare and it's...

895
00:53:57.659 --> 00:54:01.679
I think all of those things are like, yeah, and Billy is the quiet centre.

896
00:54:01.739 --> 00:54:05.820
And I think even though he loses it a few times in this and is quite volatile.

897
00:54:05.880 --> 00:54:10.500
You just see how fantastically Homerically heroic he is in this.

898
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:12.539
He really makes things happen.

899
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:23.099
He really is the reason that this comes about, and he inspires even an up to the ultimate sacrifice, not once, but several times in the narrative, mostly from women.

900
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.019
Thanks for that.

901
00:54:25.079 --> 00:54:31.980
So, yeah, I think I think sort of the final line we can say on it is it is a very successful story.

902
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:40.559
It is a very enjoyable story, but it is it is still problematic in the way it's treating what have become the traditions of the series because it's been on the air for 3 years now.

903
00:54:40.619 --> 00:54:42.659
Yeah, sorry, 2 and a bit years, I would say.

904
00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:44.280
It's still a problem 50 years on.

905
00:54:44.340 --> 00:54:45.239
Yeah, yeah.

906
00:54:45.300 --> 00:54:50.400
So people say it's a classic and yeah, in a way it is a classic, but it's not without its problems.

907
00:54:53.940 --> 00:54:56.820
Well, yes, I'd have to say that's the case.

908
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:58.019
There you go.

909
00:54:58.079 --> 00:54:58.500
Well done.

910
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:01.380
So...

911
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:03.179
So, God.

912
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:10.139
Well, so we got through that was our 12 episodes on the Daleks master plan.

913
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:23.519
Please come back next week where we will be talking about the next 3 stories in the season and greeting another new companion who is definitely a companion for better or for worse in the massacre, the ark and the celestial toy maker.

914
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:24.239
So we'll see you then.

915
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:24.659
Good night.

916
00:55:24.719 --> 00:55:25.559
Good night.

917
00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:26.039
Good night.

918
00:55:30.780 --> 00:55:36.000
You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Botomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

919
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:40.199
This episode, How would You Address a God, who was recorded on Sunday, the 10th of August.

920
00:55:40.260 --> 00:55:43.260
The next episode will be released on September 7th.

921
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:52.679
You can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter, and incidentally, a happy podcast to all of you at home.

922
00:55:56.039 --> 00:56:00.420
I I don't think we will talk about that week's Master Craig in 45 minutes.

923
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:04.920
So this is where we're going to make some time up, because even though it's 12 episodes, this is episodes a plot.

924
00:56:04.980 --> 00:56:06.480
Well, we can talk about that.