I am decider, Brendan.
I am the cider Nathan.
I am the silent.
And you are the listener.
Welcome to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast
Evolved from Riverfruit.
Oh, now if they like, I should say I'm Nathan.
And things are all about to go a bit green and wibbly as we find
ourselves on the planet Alzarius for full circle.
So, this is a Doctor Who story written by a Doctor Who fan
starring a Doctor Who fan.
So which Doctor Who fan would you like to talk about first
gentlemen?
I think we have to go for Andrew Smith, because there's so much to
say about Matthew Waterhouse.
But let's go with Andrew Smith.
What do you think?
And this is the only time we'll get to talk about Andrew, isn't
it?
Yeah, that's true.
Although it does start with some scenes that must be by old CHB
himself.
We didn't mention last time that at the end, Romana gets that call
from Gallifre.
Yes, that's right.
Before they take the earthling home.
She does.
So here we start off with her not wanting to go back to Califre at
all.
The doctor talks about Leila and Andra.
Yes, yes.
And Kane, you'll get to meet your twin.
I don't particularly like Marla's performance in that scene.
I think it's far too emotional.
Do you know, it's, again, Bidmead says, I'm sure, am I traducing
Bidmead here or misquoting him?
I got the impression that he didn't like the soap opera elements
of the new series.
Oh, well, no, I think you're right there, but I quite enjoy that.
For the same reason that we've really been enjoying wireless
performance for the last 2 stories.
And I think Lala is possibly enjoying herself a bit more because
she's actually getting to act, you know, and she's being given
material that means she has to vary. her performance.
And this is the story where it starts to, sort of, take season 17
thing of the individual against the conglomerate.
And slightly put a new spin on it, because it starts to become
about responsibility in the end of childhood and the end of
adventuring.
And it's very uncomfortable, especially for the doctor to, she
says to the doctor, you fought the time lords, and he says, yes
and I lost, and I just, the scene is, I think, quite underplayed
by both of them, emotionally played, but underplayed because
they're talking about giving up a massive, massive thing.
Their relationship with each other.
She's talking about giving up travelling.
But it's just done in such a subtle way, and it sort of ends with
her going, well, that's that then.
So it is really different from anything that we've had for years.
I mean, the doctor and Romana have just smirked their way through
the universe, like not really caring about anything, and not
reflecting at all on how they feel about each other or what they
think of the lives that they lead.
And so here you get this sort of soap opera element, and, and all
of those continuity references.
And I don't like the Android Leela thing very much.
I do like the soap opera thing a bit, but both of them.
Again, we said this before, I think I've said it on a recent
episode.
These are the things that are going to poison the program to
death.
The soap opera, which will be hugely ineptly done after this year
with all the characters wandering around TARDIS bedrooms and
moating in, you know, just the most amateurish way imaginable.
And then the continuity references, you know, the attack of the
Cyberman factor, where, you know, we just mentioned past stories
that happened years ago in a way that no one could possibly care
about, except members of the Doctor Who Appreciation Society.
Here, I think it's before the rot sets in.
I thought it was a refreshing change at this point in our flight.
I don't have a problem with the content of the actual scene up to
that endpoint.
Yeah, but I just don't like her reaction at the end of it.
I think it's, it's one of those lava moments that I dislike in her
portrayal's Romana.
It's only, again, it's just that one moment.
I think when she's possessed later in the story, her possession
stuff is fair.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Her collapse at the end, however, is utterly awful.
She gets bitten by the spider at the end of episode 3 and gently
lowers herself to the ground.
There's a moment.
I've got it written episode four.
Romana has collapsed awful.
So can't remember what that was, but her possession, I think, is
fantastic.
And besides that one moment, I think, again, Lila does a great
job.
That's only spiders.
And this is her 2nd last story.
Like because of the sequence of filming.
The distance film 4th.
Yeah, so to recap, it's gone leisure hive, state of decay, Meglos
full circle.
So, um, yeah, state of decay as Matthew Waterhouse's 1st
appearance was written far before a lot of his setup, but one
thing JNT was very good at is he would write 2 or 3 page occupants
giving the backgrounds of characters.
Most of the stuff would never be seen on screen, but famously
we'll get to later.
Nicola Bryant took that and wrote a 10 page character description
of her own and said to John, this is where it's coming from.
John pretty much turned around and said, great, now put on this
bikini. your character.
Poor Nicola.
So what do you think of the script?
This is my favourite story thus far this season.
Yeah, right?
I think it's really of its production.
There's some rapey things we'll talk about, but in terms of all
the different characters. that are going on, the performances
generally. give this more than eight.
So it's, you know, it's a solid. a solid A minus for me.
I think it's a terrifically clever script and it's political in a
way that even last year wasn't as cleverly political.
I don't think it's really great that Bid Me has taken the time to
foster new talent and particularly here, to get this script into a
place that it is so generally so coherent and just solid.
Super clever.
So we learn very early on that there's a dark secret and that no
one's allowed to know it.
Romana describes society as a type de- oligarchy, doesn't she?
And there's 3 people who know stuff.
Like, they know that the ship could take off and that all the
activity that everyone is doing is a waste of time.
And only one of them knows that they're not really from Pteradon
at all, that they evolved from the Marshmen.
And initially, that's Dreith.
And then we see after Dre dies, we see Nefred getting the news and
reacting to it.
And it's this terrible dark secret.
And normally, you sort of think, well, that's just never gonna pay
off.
It's gonna be something really stupid, but in fact, it's something
really kind of clever and important and interesting.
It pays off properly, I think.
And something, I always struggle with the story that I never quite
could get my head around.
Were they on the style, I know, when it crashed.
Did they evolve from the marsh men, like from the...
Yeah, sex and that sort of thing?
I don't know that's something that I used to criticise this script
for.
So I just kind of, every time I watch it, I always forget that
that's...
Yeah, so I think the idea is that the Teradonians are killed and
are replaced by the marshmen, and that they describe the gases of
mistfall as being toxic.
And later on in the script that said, oh, we say that because we
want to keep people from venturing out and getting eaten.
But I actually think probably the mistfall gases were toxic to the
Teradonians who are now all dead and they've been replaced by the
marshmen.
The records in the ship say that the myths are toxic.
So when they're in the ship, they're like, oh, the myths are
toxic.
This script does polemic versus science so much better than last
week with Meglos doing religion versus science.
And it's so interesting that last week, the scripture was written
by two writers, we didn't really discuss this, but one was an
experienced writer, one was a writer and actor, and they both went
on to write for other shows, and one of them went on acting
appeared in Young Indiana Jones.
But this story is written by an 18 year old, with lots of guidance
from Christopher Bidmade.
But perhaps because he is so young, perhaps that's why we're able
to get this kind of new, very fresh idea.
There's this thing online which is the evil overlord checklist.
And it's things like, you know, I will make sure my guards are
well fed, so they won't be distracted by food being thrown to them
by the prisoners.
But one of the rules is, when I have an evil super plan, which no
one can possibly find a way around, I will explain it to a five
year old.
If the five year old configuration out a way around it, I will
immediately adopt a new plan.
And it's that thing of the new ideas of children, out of the
mounds of babes, because, as we get older, we become set in our
ideas and ways of thinking, because we have so much experience, and
we know what works for us.
And the best writers sort of have a way of looking at old ideas in
a new way.
Whereas, an inexperienced writer, and not all inexperienced
writers, of course, but some inexperienced writers, would then
have a new way to look at something they're really familiar with.
So he's really familiar with Doctor Who.
He would know what kind of stories have been done before.
So, he could have done what Flanagan and McCulloch did, which is
Dr. and Romana, turn up and age civilisation that split in two.
Oh, he can go, what hasn't Doctor Who done before?
And his original plot line, the doctor in Nirvana land on a planet
a freighter crashes.
They help people repair the freighter, but marshmen are coming, but
one of the marshmen is peaceful, and that marshmen helps them, then
sacrifices itself and the freighter gets away.
And already in there, you've got the germ, the idea of evolution
that all of the marshmen are aggressive except for this one, this
one.
There's no central villain, is there?
No.
So, but I think that the, I think that the villains are the
deciders.
At the very beginning, they seem like the headmaster of a school
or something.
You know, they know everyone by name, you know, decided Dreith.
He's kind of famous and known to people.
But everyone seems to know everyone.
And so it seems like a sort of rather benevolent sort of system
where you've got these nice old men who everyone sort of seems to
like who care about people and know them by name.
But what they've done is they have, by controlling access to
knowledge, they've completely frozen this society in absolute
stasis, to the point, where there's no prospect that they'll ever
leave.
You know, they harbour the knowledge that they don't know how to
operate the ship, even though it would work now.
So they've completely put a stop to the society developing in any
way at all.
And there's something cynical about them as well.
The thing that makes me suspicious of the deciders is decide a
Logan.
So, Logan's daughter, Chiara is one of the outlers.
When Mistfall comes, she's locked out of the starliner, and
Logan's originally distressed by that.
But then he's given the offer to become a decider and he just says
oh, yes, she was a disruptive influence.
And that's exactly the sort of thing that like a malevolent
totalitarian ruler calls someone.
And so he cynically betrays his daughter in order to become a
decider.
But then what happens is the designers themselves feel compelled
to keep the knowledge secret.
Nifred's not allowed to tell anyone anything.
The other deciders aren't allowed to tell anyone anything either.
But they start to feel, like, the pressure of that.
They're worried by that, which is why both Dreith and Nefred
support Dexet are investigating 'cause he's going to find out the
truth.
Like, you know, if the doctor finds out the truth, based on
Dexeter's work with the marsh child, Nifred kind of spills the
beans when he's going to die.
Logan sees that the stasis that they've put their society in, has
made them vulnerable to the marshmen that can adapt, that can
improve, that can progress, and he's kind of horrified by what
they've done.
So I think that every bit as much as the three who rule are next
week, villains who keep their society in stasis, the deciders are
too.
But in this case, they are reflecting and ultimately going to
change. which I think is very different from a lot of Doctor Who.
I just need to go back to the plot point.
So the guys doing the repair on the spaceship.
They've evolved from what?
The marshman.
But the marshmen... are still evolving, like, this is, okay, I'm
sorry, I'm like, surely if they've evolved, why would these other
marshmen suddenly appear that aren't as evolved as them?
Surely the whole society is one would have evolved as one.
See, evolution here works differently.
It's science fiction evolution.
And, of course, we are in a different universe with slightly
different physical laws.
So you have the spiders, you have the marshmen, and you have, let's
call them, the pteradonians.
So, the spiders will always evolve into the marshman.
The marshmen will then evolve into the Terridonians, and their new
spiders will start, and those spiders eventually will evolve into
marshmen.
And those new marshmen will eventually evolve into Terridonians.
So, we have this thing where they've been there for 40,000
generations, or it's quite possible that, eventually, the marshmen
kill the Teridonians, and then become the Teridonians, only to be
killed by another lot of marshmen.
Maybe that's happened a bunch of times already.
Exactly.
Thank you.
That's what that's the question I was asking, because it's 40,000
years, and I'm going, but Shawnee, there'd be some, they don't
seem to have any sort of, all that technology is just in the ship
where do they make the new components, you know, that are going to
keep this alive?
Why is this not?
Those little aspects of things that have confused me over the
years.
But the society is in complete stasis and they have a goal that
they're working towards.
But the deciders know that that's futile.
And so they don't do anything else and they're out evolved by the
marsh creatures.
I guess that comes down to something as a kid.
Who's the one that gets dragged into the swamp?
decided Drake.
So, I thought decided Drake got dragged into the swamp and then he
got transformed into the young mask child, like that's who he
became.
Like, I don't know why, but that's how, so he was new to all the
the marsh men sort of, like the rest of them are aggressive, but
he's, he's this amalgamation of a different society and so he's
more, he doesn't understand where he gets in.
I like that idea.
I really do.
I mean, even even without that idea that, you know, the marsh
child being the sort of peaceful one, that's a sign that they're
they're evolving.
Although it's them weird if they kill all the Teradonians and take
their ship.
So they just live underneath the lake, in the mud or whatever.
Yeah, I think a new population comes up every 50 years.
They lock themselves away.
They made or whatever, and then when the gases go, then they go
back down if they haven't killed off the residents or if they
haven't evolved enough to look like the people in the ship.
It's really clever because it is, I mean, it's all like a
political allegory, really, or, you know.
And that's really clever.
And thank you for explaining all of that to me.
That is the 1st time I've actually understood that, ever, people.
So, um, Can I talk about something that I don't understand in this
story?
We have that wonderful bit of confusion in episode one, where they
switch on the scanner and the scanner shows galafray, but then
they step outside and it's Black Park, where I've been to.
So action figure photos will be on the website.
Actually, it seemed like full circle was being reenacted when I
went there with friend of the podcast, Simon Hart, and there are
all these men in swimming costumes in their early 20s, jumping
around and swimming in the lake being filmed. were they splashing
each other?
They were splashing each other.
They were being filmed for some form of TV show and we said, we
must find out what that TV we never did.
Anyway.
So they land, they see Gallifrey on the screen, but it's not
Gallifrey outside, and that's explained that because the Tarnus
has this image translator, which translates the coordinates, into
images.
Could we not just have a camera that will actually show you what's
happening outside?
Because that's like, instead of, I'm going to look out the window
and see what's happening on the street outside, that's like saying
I'm going to check Google Earth and see what's happening on the
street outside. because that's got the coordinate.
You know, it introduces the idea of negative coordinates in a very
in a very understandable way without just being word peril.
But at the same, it doesn't stand up to any form of group
whatsoever.
I was always a bit of a nerd about eSpace, and I just assumed that
bits of eSpace had sort of corresponding parts.
And so the Gallifrey and Alzarius are actually in the same place
but one's in e-space and one's in end space.
And so the image translator is just looking out of the window.
It is a camera.
We later see an image translator in Dexeter's microscope, which is
where they get the eSpace one.
Yeah.
So the end space one can only see what's here in end space.
So it's not quite Google for you.
And then and then negative coordinates never really made any sense
because if space is infinite, then they can't be Cartesian
coordinates, can they?
Because otherwise the universe would have a corner in it, you know
that you couldn't go beyond.
So maybe they're polar coordinates and it's kind of like the
radial coordinates negative or something.
Who knows?
My brain hurts.
Yeah, so does mine.
I always think the moment we have normal space and then eSpace.
I always thought eSpace is this little thing at the side of in
space and you had the...
It's like a bubble clinging onto another bubble.
That's correct. putting too much air in a balloon.
So again, for me, the universe is shrinking. because you can have
this finite in space and the finite e-space.
You know where I think that might come from?
At least where that impression comes from, for me, because does
the doctor refer to eSpace as being smaller on screen?
Yeah.
Oh, okay, he does.
Fair enough.
Because the BBV audios with canine and the mistress, of course
were adventures in a pocket universe.
Okay.
And I remember wanting those as a kid.
I never got them and I'm not sure I really care now.
Because we had proper Romana and canine stuff. on Gallifrey with
Leila.
Okay.
Getting away from Andrew and the Plos and everything like that. and
all the CVE stuff, which is obviously from our good script editor
friend.
The director.
Hit a grimwade.
This is his 1st time directing Doctor Who.
And lots of location work all out in the park.
And there's so many extras.
Like, amazing, with all the mist coming in and all that sort of
stuff.
I do heaven help you if you don't like river fruit.
It's all everything you can eat.
That's all you can eat.
Can I say something?
The swimming with those guys in the lake.
And it's being costumes, which...
They're transparent.
They got this through, the census, like nobody picked this up.
Like they're not only skimpy, but they're actually see-through.
It's really incredible.
I mean, Peter Grimwade has an obvious sort of reason for wanting
to include images of that in his show.
Yes.
And Rod is about the same age as Matthew Waterhouse and so had a
crush on Adrick in the early 80s.
And when we were rewatching this, I've got in my notes here.
Matthew Waterhouse can't swim, but for some reason I don't care.
And that's just as the camera switches to his ass.
He can't swim.
No.
Whatever.
Well, well, he spins in a very special way.
He can't walk either, to be honest.
I mean he walks in a very special way as well.
Decided.
I guess we need, since we've brought it up, we may as well start
to talk about.
I did want to just say briefly that I thought that the location
stuff is spectacularly good.
It is.
And it is the 1st location, the 1st you know, we had the leisure
hive the other day, but it's the 1st proper location work since
Paris, really, isn't it?
Yeah.
And it's lit with gels that make it seem, you know, brighter and a
bit alien.
They've constructed little dwellings and piles of things and stuff
like they've dressed the set.
They painted some of the plants.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, with a wash off paint.
So it's really, really good and really refreshing.
It makes such a nice change.
It's really well done.
Look, I completely agree with you.
You know, the marsh men.
What do you think of them coming out of the wall?
I actually don't think that's as effective as it could be.
And it's clearly people remember the sea devils and that's not
particularly effective either.
That looks ridiculous too.
We eventually get it right, probably in Curse of Fenrik, where the
things coming out of the water look quite good, but this doesn't
look that great.
The mist is sort of good.
There's a bit of slow-mo and stuff.
I'm not, I don't think that the Marshman costumes really work all
that well.
And they do have, like, gloves and cuffs on them and things.
Like, they're not terrifically good.
They're not that terrible.
They're passable.
K9's working quite well.
Isn't he on the outdoor stuff?
Yeah, it's trending a lot right.
Well, although apparently you can see the wire at one point.
And of course, we have Patty Kingsland on solo duty for the 1st
time.
He and Peter Howe shared the last story. and he's got his
wonderful canine theme.
Yeah.
And it gets a theme as well.
Yeah, yeah, which...
I can't even...
They play it in Earth Rock when he dies.
Just watched Earth, Shocks him.
So bad.
But yeah, Patty's doing a great job here.
Like there's...
It's really weird.
There was a superfluity of inappropriate guitar Wawa music and
television at this point, like the theme for the new Avengers and
space 1999 season two.
Patty Kingsland really makes it work.
Like he underscores the action scenes with this sort of synth
guitar Wawa sound.
But it sounds great.
I love the soundtrack to this story.
He does the music that the book talks over in Hitchhiker's Guide
to the Galaxy series too.
And it's really good.
It's really witty music.
He's terrific.
He's tremendous.
Like, um, Peter Howe, his incidental music is just something that
you know, 1981 to 1984 or whatever.
It just is the early 80s.
Yeah, but it's good.
Like, it's not dated.
No, at all.
So Matthew Waterhouse.
Yeah, so let's come back to Matthew Wadhouse. circling around
him.
Todd is doing a double-faced palm, dear listener.
I just don't understand.
Barry Letts is in on the casting, right?
of this.
We've got, who plays Marsh in this story?
Richard Willis. who played Simon Gibbs Kemp, didn't he play, he
was Seth?
Seth, whom you enjoy?
Yeah, he was good.
And both of them.
Both of those two actors are very natural.
Maybe because they're slightly older.
Maybe they're 22, 23.
Maybe they've got a bit of life experience.
Matthew is very young.
He's only 18.
Right?
Compared to a lot of other Doctor Who actors, like companions.
Everybody else tends to be like 2021.
And there is a big difference between 18 and that.
I mean, Sarah Sutton is going to be the same age, but she's done a
lot of acting before.
It just puzzles me as to, as to why his body is so awkward in his
movements.
Yeah.
I think that's okay.
He's supposed to be a teenager and stuff.
It's just whenever he tries to express emotion.
When he's happy, he's all right.
He's tolerable.
When he emotes, he's just terrible.
You know, he comes into the TARTAS and faints, it's just like a
giant embarrassment.
That is...
I mean, but getting the character to faint as well, doesn't it?
Do anything for the character?
Yeah, yeah.
I will say this, and I'm foreshouting a lot of things to come.
I think I think Matthew does get better in this season and I think
with Tom in the last 2 stories, I think they are his best
performances as opposed to the following season where I think the
character is written like really badly and he's not growing as an
actor.
Like so many other doctor who actors come into this show.
And they might be a bit ropey in their 1st episodes, but then you
see a growth in what they're doing and that sort of thing.
And I don't, and I think that's something... that I don't see
here.
And we've been we've been talking about that with Lala.
And Lala started off far stronger than Matthew Waterhouse has
started off.
But Lala has gone from strength to strength and she's having these
real emotional moments and, you know, in her, in her last story
coming up in a couple of weeks.
She's going to put in a cracker of her performance.
I think I'm possibly a little more forgiving of Matthew Waterhouse
than you guys, possibly because when I first started watching
Doctor, obviously, I was much younger than Adrik.
But Adrick as a character was the closest to my own age.
Yeah.
So I think maybe they're not addressing the younger audience as
much.
I think this was their effort to try and do that, but Stephen
Moffatt, I think, says it best on the making of Earthshock, we
hate boy geniuses.
Yeah.
I think simply because they're not terribly realistic characters.
Like if you look at the other boy genius in sci-fi, that people
pull up is Wesley Crusher in Star Trek the Next Generation.
Now, if you look at Wesley Crusher in the 3rd season of Star Trek
Next Generation, when they allow him to do things like
accidentally sleep in and have romances, you know, he's still
awkward, and, you know, socially not great, but he's so much
better than in the 1st season, when he'll come onto the bridge and
say, I found a problem, and then someone on the senses will say
he's right.
Will Wheaton grows as an actor.
That's true as well.
Yeah, and he's not, he's not never anywhere near as poor as Murphy
Waterhouse.
I mean, it's a character that's a problem, but it improves.
I mean, I think I've come across as being too harsh.
I pick up on his deficiencies as an actor in certain things.
His trip is actually quite good in this story when he trips over
compared to what happens in the visitation, right?
for years in events.
But the whole concept of having like the Dr. Romana and a younger
male companion, which I think is very much, for me, taken like
we've seen it happen in the horns of 91, and I actually think it
worked quite well there, but the younger acted there could
actually, you know, was energetic and could really act.
A lot of people just hate Adric.
I just want to say that I don't.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't hate the character and I thought the scene where he's
trying to prove himself to the outlers, you know, it's a very
children's TV scene, but it's a good scene and, you know, like
he's smarter than them because he's mathematical, but he's also
actually properly smarter than them.
Like he would be an asset to the group and they make him prove it
and all of that.
I think all of that's quite good.
I don't think it's a terrible character, but this is the beginning
of the 1980s companions, and I don't think it's a really happy
succession of people.
And it makes me a bit sad because I really like the doctor in
Romana.
We will get to see them together by themselves next in next week's
story, because they don't know that Adrick's there.
But from here on in, it's all just a bit of a nightmare, really.
Yeah, the '80s companions, they tend to have, like, a short
sentence character quirk.
Yeah.
A hook sort of thing.
Yeah.
So Adrik is the mathematical genius.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's him.
And we get that in his face.
This is someone who knows very little about telebiogenesis, for
instance.
Tegans mouth on links.
But that's the thing.
In Adrik's 1st scene, we get, and you know, I challenge any actor
to make this line work.
That's for mathematical excellence.
You know, it's, it's, um, as you well know, kind of thing. at some
point where he says, I think I've pulled the wrong lever, but in
fact, he's flicked the wrong switch.
Yeah, and I think that's just an actor's inexperience of, yeah
according to all reports, Peter Grimm Wade, while not a difficult
person to get on with, like Alan Bromley was, was a very strict
director.
So it wouldn't surprise me if Matthew Waterhouse.
Because, of course, when Matthew Waterhouse 1st came on set, he
bounded up to Tom Baker and said how happy he was to be working
with him, and Tom said something to him, that ended in off.
How would you be as an 18 year old to encounter that?
Have you read the book?
Yeah, I have.
That's Blue Box Boy, dear listeners.
Yeah, I think of the week.
I think it's a great book and I think personally, you know, I
think I think Mecu comes across really as a nice guy and very
quite insightful and realising that at that time he was that
young.
I certainly couldn't have acted like that.
I look at myself at 18 and the difference between me and 18 and 22
was immense.
He remembered watching Tom, like, from robot onwards.
And so Tom was his hero.
And so, you know, like Tom was really horrible to him and Lala was
really horrible to him.
And, you know, like the story is really, really interesting.
And when Matthew came, he came to something, a day event, a
convention or something.
I saw him interview.
Yeah, lots of time, year before last, I think.
He's smart.
Like Matthew Waterhouse is smart.
He's not he's not a fool at all.
You know, like, I was really impressed by him, and I was impressed
by the book.
So, you know, he's got a lot going for him, but he's terrible in
Doctor Who. shockingly bad.
I think having the wig doesn't help. the wig doesn't help.
Having a costume, right?
Which, of course, John Nathan Turner is this thing about costumes
and I think it takes away from people being real characters.
And that's not affecting our, I don't think it affects us at this
point, but it's certainly going to...
It's the 1st one, isn't it?
The 1st one.
And so we're not aware of these changes that he wants to make.
I think the impact is going to be much felt next year as opposed
to this year.
Apparently, he tried to pull the whole one regular costume in
every story on Lala, and she just wasn't having it.
Well, I mean, it's obvious, you know, she's still got in her
contract, her, you know, her budget for her, her frocks
everywhere.
Quite right, too.
It's a carryover from the 1970s.
But I think the thing is, too, that sometimes I think Matthew does
a good job.
And then in the next, well, I know you're playing it back, but
there's scenes where I think he is quite good, and then he'll do
something that's awful.
And then when he's around people, like if he's around Tom and
Larder, I think he actually does lift to them.
But when there's other guest actors in the show that are very good
it shows up how inexperienced he is.
And Vash is the obvious example, which is a brother.
Um, you know what?
I wish we had Vosch instead.
Simply because Vash...
Vash is just a more interesting character, even we've put
performance to one side, because, as I say, I'm, you know, I'm
actually a fan of Adric, even when he's, even when Matthew
Waterhouse's performance isn't good, I can see what he's trying to
do.
So, imagine if Adric had died in Vash's place, and Vash was
already a very angry young man, who better to go with the doctor
and then an angry young man who, over time, his character
development would be the softening of that, and he wouldn't want
smash up the universe anymore, and he'd make peace with it.
And then, at the end, he'd sacrifice himself for a whole planet.
But don't you think that that's what they wanted from Adric?
I mean, the Adric has, you know, he's lost his brother.
He has been outcast from society, you know, even, like everyone's
scorning him.
Like, he could have been there.
Yeah, but unfortunately, and I blame the writers for this.
Yeah, it just doesn't come across.
You know, there's one reference to it in state of decay and one
reference to it in time flight.
But that's pretty much it.
And I think the production team expected Matthew to bring that to
the performance, but nobody told Matthew.
And again, you know, he's not going to go around questioning
people and questioning things.
Richard Willis is so good.
He is good.
He's too tall to be the companion, the my companion who's playing
a child.
I think that's actually the problem.
Well, he is a few years older.
You know, he is about 21, 22.
Too tall.
He's too tall.
And his butt does go on trial in episode three.
I'd just like to tell you that.
Really?
Well, they had the trial and it's the butt shot.
Once you see it, you can't unsee it people.
Probably don't want to unsee it.
What was that you said before we started recording, Nathan?
I can't remember.
Gayest Doctor Who story. really?
So we have Peter Grimwave is gay.
We have Alan Rowe, who's gay.
We have James Brie, who's gay.
We have Matthew Waterhouse, who's gay.
Richard Willis Vash is surprisingly not.
Right.
Maybe that was wishful thinking.
No, he's been married since 1960 something.
Tylos?
He's terribly camped on the DVD extras.
I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure Burton pattern is gay.
Oh my goodness.
Richard Willis played Vash and Doctor Who Full Circle.
He's the ex-husband of Kate and Mara.
And June Page.
What the What?
What?
Well, you know what?
He went on to marry Kate O'Mara.
I don't think you could be any stranger than being married to Cato
Maro.
I know, frankly.
Peter Allen married Liza Minnelli.
This is very true.
So So his ex-husband of June Page, who played...
And they got married, Keanu, right?
Okay, well, that's nice.
She's quite, I think she's quite good. think she's good.
Yeah, she's very natural.
She's like Janetellis last year.
Yeah, yeah, you know, Tika.
I mean, Tika was a bit more annoying, theatrical.
You know, she was very projecting.
But at the same time, she was projecting because she had this
unshakeable faith in Seth.
You know, so it was realism contextually in this very unrealistic
story.
Whereas Kira is far more realistic, if you like.
And it's good.
And then we've got Bernard Pattern or...
Isn't he the bug-eyed one?
Yes.
I think it's so sad how he gets killed.
I think that's really kind of terrible.
I think they should have kept some of the crummy extras from, you
know, before they all scarpered back to the starliner and had them
killed.
I think it's sad that they killed Tylos.
A really bad crummy extra who is holding back Kira in part three.
Look out for that.
It's just terrible.
Terrible.
Poor old Tylos has an aged well if you watch the documentary.
He seems funny though.
I liked him a lot.
In the documentary he's worth, he's good.
Looks like some bald parrot.
The dobby doctor.
Whereas Matthew Waterhouse was aged very well.
Very distinguished.
He has.
Look, I think a lot of the, like George Baker is Logan.
What has he done?
He's been in other things.
Oh, everything.
He's been in Honour Majesty's Secret Service, and you can download
the commentary for that from bondfinger.com.
Is Hillary Bray?
He's Hillary Bray, and is he in another bond?
He's like Inspector Wexford or something incredibly famous and
will look like dunderheads if we don't mention it.
Yeah, no, he's terrifically famous for that.
His TV is George Baker.
He also plays Tiberius in I Claudius.
And he died in 2011.
And of course, James Bre has been in the show and will be in it
again.
Yeah, I think he doesn't he doesn't...
Yeah, good job.
I think I like all. normally terrible, isn't he?
So this is probably his best performance.
Yeah, I think so as well, because he, the scenes where he's the
decider, and he's on. very pompous.
And that scene where he discovers the secret.
Yeah, no, he does proper act.
Yeah, he does proper acting and he gets he gets the big reveal
line.
Like we were talking about Pangle's big reveal line a couple of
years ago.
He gets the big reveal live.
We can never return to Teraden because we have never been there.
Whereas Richard and I can't return to Teraden because of something
we did with a marshman and pinball.
Yeah, I like all of all of the deciders.
Dexeter.
Gareth, which is the one that...
Gareth is Alan Rowe. from Skin Sale.
Dr. Evan.
I could never remember his name.
Mentally to me, he was decider skin sale the entire time.
But I also really like Norman Bacon, who plays the Marshchild.
Yeah, yeah.
I think part of the reason the marshmen are so successful, and I
agree.
You can see seams and whatnot.
A bit like, but a bit like the draconians.
You've got the eye.
And you can see the eye, and that's where the performance comes
through, especially in the marsh child, and that beautiful scene
where he's trying to get through the screen.
It's so heartbreaking.
It's all because he trusts his doctor, which is, you know, Dylan
and Keanu.
You need to watch out.
Yeah, he puts his hand through the screen with Tom's face on it
and gets electrocuted.
It's a great performance, isn't it?
And the sound is really good.
And putting Tom up against a child is a no-brainer.
Like, why has it never been done before in all this time because
he behaves the way that Tom behaved with a child.
He was charming and sweet and funny and, you know, it should have
just happened all the time.
It's so heartbreaking.
Yeah, whole thing. it really is.
And Tom's performance really sells it as well.
And his outrage at Dexteter.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
And Tom himself was in an interesting place personally at this
point because he and Lala were getting back together.
He'd recovered from the pretty much he'd been ill the whole season
up till this and we'll see next week, which was filmed previously
that he had to get his hair permed because it uncurled.
He was so unwell.
And it's never been confirmed what it was.
Some people say it was some liver damage from excessive alcohol.
And I think we can say that.
That's plausible.
Yeah.
So, yeah, Tom is in the position where he's recovering from an
illness.
He and Laura are back on together, but as we know, it wasn't going
to last forever.
And also, it was during the production of this story that he
decided to leave.
And so I think there's 2 ways you can look at it, that he's
putting in a really good performance because he knows he's going
to be done soon.
Or there's a certain relief, because the things that were going
wrong for him, because he started off with a really good working
relationship with John Nathan Turner, which deteriorated because
Tom could sort of get what he wanted out of Graham Williams.
Whereas John Nathan Turner would just put his foot down and say, No
we're doing, we need to modernise the program.
We're doing it this way, and Tom didn't like that.
And Tom says in interviews now, you know, I was insufferable and I
couldn't see beyond me because I'd done it for 7 years.
So it's either that or it's the relief.
It's knowing that, you know what?
I'm going to be out of this situation soon.
I've just recovered from being ill.
I have the person I love back in my life.
And as much as I'm sad to be going, I don't have to worry about it
anymore.
I think leaving a job freeze you up, and I think I think that's
evident, and I think with Lara as well in her final performances.
Let's have to say this.
I don't dislike Tom's costume in this story.
I'm not in love with it, but I don't dislike it.
So is this a continuing tale?
Are you going to be in love with it by Lagopolis?
We shall see.
I really like the tortoiseshell waistcoat.
In fact, I like the costume when he's not wearing the scarf with
it and perhaps when he's not wearing the jacket.
I find that really weird seeing him not wear the scarf in these
stories.
His neck is so long.
It's like he hasn't had that before.
Yeah, it's just very off-putting.
Yeah, I think it's also that whatever illness he had, he lost a
lot of weight.
That's kind of craggy looking.
Yeah, that's why people think it may have been his liver.
But, you know, whatever it was, that's part of what has aged him.
Not everything in the story is fantastic.
Like, I mean, I think there's some pathetic running from side to
side in the TARDIS and it's picked up.
Oh, yeah, that's dismal, isn't it?
And the horrible glowing fake spiders.
Like, they actually freak me out, those spiders, but then they're
wibbly wobbly.
You must be better at that.
Oh, no.
In fact, now that I think it back and picture those spiders in
planet of the spiders, they're much worse, aren't they?
The tardest thing, like they don't shoot the marshmen.
They obviously can't get the marshmen to lift it up, so they do it
from inside the that thing.
But can the TARDIS really be 5 times 10 to the 6 kilograms in
mass?
That's 5000 tons.
How would they lift it up later in King's Demons?
That's crazy, Tom.
Yeah, yeah.
That's a continuity problem.
Either that or Roman's just making it up.
Maybe it's her wardrobe.
Actually, they, well, spoiler alert, but in a few stories time
they're going to jettison Romana's room and that frees up, that
frees it up. frees up a lot of space.
Especially when she gets rid of all of her stuff from Tahiti.
Now, poor canine.
Oh, yeah, he gets decapitated.
It's decapitated in this one.
So if we I'm not going to blow him up in the 1st one.
We may as well like knock off his head in this one.
It's really savage too.
I think it's quite clever because JNT knows that from the
beginning of this series, he's writing out Romana and K9.
He doesn't know he's writing out Tom, but he knows he's writing
out Lala and K9.
So, Lala at the end of Meglos gets the impetus to leave, which is
otherwise she's going to end up back on Gallifrey, but that
doesn't pay off for a few more stories.
K9 gets damaged in each story.
You know, he's blown up in the leisure hive.
His batteries run down in Meglos.
He gets his head knocked off in this one.
It seems to be a very canny thing of introducing the idea to the
audience that these characters. 1st of all, are not invulnerable
and are not unmoveable.
So that when they do go, It's kind of weird in that instead of
getting the shock when they leave.
It gets gently introduced to you that these characters might go.
And it's been attempted with other Doctor Who characters to lesser
effects.
So, for instance, the big one where I think it fails. is with Amy
and Rory, who, you know, gets so many great leaving scenes, and
then just this horrible, horrible end that they get in Angels of
Manhattan.
The leaving scene they get in the God complex is perfect.
Yeah I like it a lot.
Yeah.
They should have gone then.
But I think this is, I think this is a lot more effective because
for reasons we'll discuss in 2 weeks.
It actually feeds into the character reasons for leaving.
Yeah, I mean, obviously a companion leaving is a very emotional
thing for a lot of the younger audience.
And whether you realise it or not, subliminally, they're planting
this in your head that it could happen.
So when it becomes more obvious, although you're upset, you're not
completely and utterly distraught.
Yeah.
Because Romana, you know, 3 seasons, K9, 4 years, since his 1st
appearance, it's a very long, Oh, I think that's virtually longer
than any other companion, you know?
So it actually is a clever little ploy, but also I think it also
ties back into the, um, more sort of um, soap opery sort of
element that that has been introduced.
A lot of things go on in this.
I mean, these are the most changes in cast that we've had in a
single season, isn't it?
Apart from the long 60s ones, maybe.
Yeah, since they flail about it. season four, yeah.
Yeah.
But the, yeah, everyone leaving and coming and telling a sort of
longer story.
I do like the little comedy bit with the canine's head and Romana
that the doctor. that goes through and I think that's quite nice.
In episode four.
I think Vash's death is very quick.
I think it's a bit too sort of.
You don't want it to be protracted though, do you?
That would have been a bit upsetting.
I mean, it is pretty good, and he's good in it, you know.
And Matthew Waterhouse is good in it.
I think.
Okay.
I find it.
You know, I know his reaction afterwards when he picks up the
belt.
Some people might look at that and say, oh, you know, he's not
doing anything.
But I'm like, actually, no, he's numb with shock.
And Matthew actually plays out rather well.
Yeah, he's quite good at num.
He should have stuck with it.
Oh, dear.
What do you think of the main set with all the system files?
I think they're a bit colourful and a bit, you know, paper thin
when they're going through them all.
I mean, it looks good though.
I think that set looks good.
And I do like, you know, the symbolism of the marshmen coming in
and, you know, ripping up the system files.
Yeah, but I mean?
But there never seems to be quite enough people in that set for
when they have the difference.
Yeah, like the big announcement.
But they do cut away to like the corridors full of people.
I know they're trying really hard to use all their extras from
location in various things, but it just looks a little sparsely
populated.
The corridors are very liberator.
Yeah, they are.
They look good.
They're interesting.
For some reason, the show has learned to do interesting looking
corridors in the last year.
And it's all just by not having them being square.
Yeah.
Oh, I'm painting the walls something other than brown or, you
know.
Well, they're beige.
I've commented, like, the leisure high, very quick ending, and I
can't Megloss wraps up.
Yeah, frequently.
You said it was rushed, I think.
Here, again, it's like, oh, yes, there's a big green button, pushed
that, you know, you're off, and then they're back in the TARTIS
and canine seems to be repaired in the quickest time ever.
Like, it's all just...
Last time they had to keep repeat repairing them over and over
again.
Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, I'm just finding a bit with
watching some of these Christopher HBM scripted stories that the
endings of this, like, it's literally like, we've got 2 minutes.
We've got to get out of here.
Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Not say that I wanted to drag it out.
I just sometimes feel that.
Thing is, I do I actually kind of prefer that to some of the
Scooby-Doo endings we had last year.
Like the sort of, oh, we're back in the Tartars.
And I'm going to tell a joke.
Oh, yeah.
I don't know.
I just kind of feel like they've built up a relationship with
people and it's like I would just like a little 30 seconds.
Can we get that back from the beat shot in the leisure hive, you
know?
true, I suppose.
But look, I really enjoyed this and I really thank you for
explaining the evolution of the marshman to me.
It's really helped, and I think this is a really confident, solid
story, well-directed, and, you know, I have there's more to come.
I forgot to mention one thing.
This story.
I just want to add in that this story contains the original series
the single worst placed Doctor Who episode in chart history, which
is 107 TF on the charts, which is episode 2, which only got
3.700000 viewers.
Which I think is such a shame.
It's doomed.
Whole show's doomed.
Everything is ruined forever.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, as you enjoy your trip on the
starliner back to Pterodon, we will see you next week. on the
unnamed planet of the three who rule for state of decay.
Until then, please find us online at flightthroughentirety.com
flight through entirety on Facebook, and iTunes and FTE podcast on
Twitter.
Please retweet, share, and review.
It's the only way we get new followers.
So that would be absolutely wonderful to get this podcast out to
as many people as possible.
For those of you of a James Bond bent, If you would like to hear
us talk all about George Baker impersonating George Lazenby, or is
it the other way around?
You can find our commentary for Honour Majesty's Secret Service
and a variety of other bond films on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger
cast on Twitter, and Bondfinger on Facebook, and iTunes.
Until next time, may none of your river fruit contain spiders.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd B.L.B. Nathan Bottomley
and Brendan Jones.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, he swims in a very special way, was recorded on
February 20th.
The next episode will be released on April 24.
I tried gel electrophoresis once, but I didn't end up with teeth
as nice as Lulla Ward.
You know, I had there's more to come.
Next week's a dumpster fire.