WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:32:56 1 00:00:30.179 --> 00:00:33.000 Hello, everybody, and welcome back. 2 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:38.640 To Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who is a shadow of your past and of our future. 3 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:39.539 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:40.439 I'm Nathan. 5 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:41.100 I'm Todd. 6 00:00:41.219 --> 00:00:51.359 And we are embarking on possibly the strangest, most ethereal, and open to debate, Doctor Who story today, with Warrior's Gate. 7 00:00:57.420 --> 00:01:01.140 It's not as strange as the Celestial Toy Maker, is it? 8 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:07.620 Yeah, but it's good and strange, rather than terrible and slightly racist. 9 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:14.819 And I didn't even tend for that opening to rhyme, but, you know, it's just the astral Jung and holistic view of this entire story. 10 00:01:14.939 --> 00:01:19.859 This is another one that I didn't sort of see as a kid. 11 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:30.239 I saw as a teenager, and getting ahead of ourselves a bit, Ghostlight is a story that a lot of people hold up and say, you know, this is the most confusing and dense the Doctor Who ever got. 12 00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:35.760 And I watched this in Ghostlight around the same time as each other for the 1st time around 1516. 13 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:38.700 Ghostfly, I understood 1st time through. 14 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:41.579 This, I had to watch it 4 times. 15 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:48.599 But even at the end of the 1st one, I'm like, I have no idea what that was about, but God, I love it. 16 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:54.540 Very interesting because I just, as a kid, I never understood this. 17 00:01:54.599 --> 00:02:02.159 It was my least favourite story of the season and has been for 35 years, or how many years ago that it was made. 18 00:02:02.219 --> 00:02:03.480 It was always my least favourite. 19 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:04.620 It's no longer my least favourite now. 20 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.099 The documentary, actually, on the DVD release is fantastic. 21 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:12.180 It really helped me to sort of piece together a lot of things in my mind. 22 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.039 It's been several weeks since I've watched it. 23 00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:15.000 So I've forgotten it all. 24 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:15.900 So that's great. 25 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.139 But back to what you're saying about Ghost Light. 26 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:20.819 I don't understand how people can say they don't get it. 27 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:30.780 I mean, the 1st time through, some of the audio you can't hear, but when you watch it, everything to me logically makes sense, whereas with this, I can still watch it now and go, I still don't understand parts of this at all. 28 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.719 I don't either, and I don't think it's a problem. 29 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:38.159 And I think there are things that don't really make sense. 30 00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:40.680 Not in a bad way. 31 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:42.120 I don't mean that as a criticism. 32 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:48.360 I mean, I think there are things, like, why is the world beyond the gateway just black and white photo? 33 00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:50.879 It's like, you know, there's all sorts of things. 34 00:02:51.000 --> 00:03:04.379 And I think, I think this is unusual in this season in that, and correct me if I'm wrong, every other story features scientists in a major role, like every other story. 35 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:18.780 So you've got Harden, you've got the savants, you've got decks that are, you've got Kalmar and those horrible flea bitten people who are being oppressed by the Lords. 36 00:03:19.379 --> 00:03:22.979 Their comedy beards, more of which next week. 37 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.520 You know, you've got tree mass, like you've got the monitor. 38 00:03:26.580 --> 00:03:27.840 There's scientists. 39 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:29.340 There's no scientists in this. 40 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:36.900 And in fact, time isn't working by scientific principles at all in this story. 41 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:42.780 And it really works on magical and poetical principles, I think. 42 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:45.060 Yeah, yeah, it does in a way. 43 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:52.560 And I think also we need to look at what's happening on the other side at the moment, the other side, not of the mirror, but over on ITV. 44 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.879 Who currently have the immensely popular sapphire and steel. 45 00:03:56.939 --> 00:03:58.379 Is that immensely popular? 46 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:02.460 It is, it is, because Saffron still was commissioned as a children's show. 47 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.639 If you watch the 1st Sapphire and Steel story. 48 00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:07.139 It is explicitly for children. 49 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:10.439 The 2 main supporting cast in it, are children. 50 00:04:10.500 --> 00:04:10.860 Yeah. 51 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:16.980 But it was so popular with adults that if you look at the 2nd sapphire and steel story. 52 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:18.180 That's incredibly adult. 53 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:19.139 There's no children. 54 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:25.319 There's, you know, you can't exactly take lots of death, but it deals with the idea of death a great deal. 55 00:04:25.379 --> 00:04:26.459 That's the one in the railway station. 56 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:34.259 Yeah, so that was incredibly popular and it was being billed at the time as, you know, this is ITV's answer to Doctor Who. 57 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:40.980 Now, of course, it didn't have the longevity, but it played with the idea of time in ways that Doctor Who didn't tend to. 58 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:46.500 So, you know, if we think of classic Doctor Who, stories that play with time have got, Dana Daleks. 59 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.060 We've got this one. 60 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:49.920 Maybe Space Museum. 61 00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:52.860 Space Museum, Little. you know, in one episode. 62 00:04:52.920 --> 00:05:00.240 And yeah, we get other stories where time is a factor like Hinchcliffe's favourite of an evil from millennia ago. 63 00:05:00.300 --> 00:05:01.259 Yeah. 64 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:08.459 But, well, that's one thing I really love about this story is its relationship with time and exploring time through language. 65 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:09.360 Yeah. 66 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:17.819 But I'm not quite sure that it is as magical, as you say, Nathan. 67 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.040 I think possibly it's magical in the Arthur C. 68 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:26.160 Clark sense that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. 69 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.019 Except, I mean, think about it. 70 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.100 At the intersection between 2 universes, at the CVE. 71 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:37.980 And when the CVE is portrayed in full circle, is it the beginning of full circle? 72 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:41.519 It's like a sort of video effect and it's got a technical term. 73 00:05:41.579 --> 00:05:43.319 It's a charged vacuum in boyment. 74 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:47.519 It's a space phenomenon and it makes the TARDIS go all wibbly and things. 75 00:05:47.579 --> 00:05:56.759 This time the gateway between the universes is a white void with a Gothic door in it, which is able to sustain life. 76 00:05:56.759 --> 00:05:59.040 Like, it's not a planet. 77 00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:00.240 It's got a floor. 78 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:06.420 It's got like just whiteness, it has air, and for some reason it exists and is shrinking. 79 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:07.259 Yeah. 80 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:15.660 So it is a magical realm like the, you know, the 1st episode of the land of fiction. is, you know, the nearest analogue, which is another just white studio. 81 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:29.220 And you can get through the magic mirrors if you've been touched by the time winds, but the time winds affect organic matter differently from inorganic matter, which is why the doctor can go through, but canine can't go back. 82 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:34.079 You know, that's magical, the fact that, you know, the rules of time affect life differently. 83 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:54.779 And the fact that the iching works, you know, like when we 1st the 1st thing that we get about time in this is the very opening where Aldo and Royce, who are the 2 crew members on that ship, throw a coin, and the coin stops at the very apex of the coin toss. 84 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:59.040 So time becomes about chance and outcomes and things. 85 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:03.839 It stops at the point where it's going to be decided whether it'll be heads or tails. 86 00:07:03.899 --> 00:07:11.100 And then the Iching, which is also about throwing coins, is explicitly said to be a random sampling of events. 87 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:26.100 And so you can use the iching to foretell the future because the tossing of coins is like a microcosm of, you know, the way that things are moving sort of generally in the universe. 88 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.620 And that's a kind of magical principle, I think. 89 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:29.819 It is, it is. 90 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:39.959 And I think part of the problem with the story is, Well, in general, The script was very troubled, and I'll go back to that in a moment. 91 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:48.540 Something that isn't really made explicit in the dialogue is the way that Farrells navigate time travel. 92 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:55.680 They look into the future, see all the possible things that can happen, and pick the one they want. 93 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:13.199 So the way Birok navigates the ship, is he looks at all the possible destinations the ship can go to, and chooses the one they go to, and that's where they go, and that's why they need him as a navigator, but that is, that's in Stephen Gallagher's original script, but it isn't explicitly explained on screen. 94 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:14.399 It's really interesting. 95 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:19.439 Because when I was watching the documentary, his original script is more like a novel. 96 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:33.960 And then I was astounded to find out that Bidmead and the director Paul Joyce basically had a weekend in a house and Bidmead is typing the script from his novel and Joyce is saying, well, I can do that, I can do that, put that in and that sort of thing. 97 00:08:34.019 --> 00:08:34.440 Right. 98 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:42.659 And Hall dress is saying, oh, yes, Bidmead and I wrote the script based on that, and Bidmead is saying, well, I actually wrote the script, and the director was in the house at the same time. 99 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:48.059 Slight difference of opinion, but it is the sort of thing that Bidne routinely says. 100 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:49.019 Yes. 101 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:58.019 He does finish the documentary by saying, you know, it was a very interesting story and, you know, I think Stephen has to take a great deal of credit for that. 102 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:02.940 And I think Paul has to take a great deal of credit because he was trying to do something the BBC had never seen. 103 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.159 And I think I should take a bit of credit as well. 104 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:07.259 And that's his life. 105 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:08.159 Do you, Chris? 106 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.519 There's no knowing smile or anything. 107 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:14.639 It's just like, no, no, I worked on this, yes. 108 00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:26.460 I mean, I think Bidmead, you know, in a sense, Bidmead is right because this whole season has this incredible thematic unity. 109 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:35.519 It's got Bid Mead written all over it. in Castra Valve, you get something fairly similar in Frontios, you know, his 2 later scripts. 110 00:09:35.580 --> 00:09:37.440 Again, they're really bid meaty. 111 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:48.000 So you can tell that he's hugely responsible and he tells the story that, you know, he only did one year because he had to rewrite all of the scripts so heavily that it was just sort of too much work. 112 00:09:48.059 --> 00:09:49.559 And it's easy to believe. 113 00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:50.639 Yeah, yeah. 114 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:57.600 Well, here he's having to rewrite it, you know, keeper of truck and he has to insert the master because Johnny Byrne's gone on holidays. 115 00:09:57.659 --> 00:09:59.460 And he's writing the last script. 116 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.259 He's worked heavily on full circle. 117 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:08.519 He ripped all the humour out of the leisure hive, and he certainly wrote the 1st episode of Megwos and left the rest of it to their own devices. 118 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:12.480 And state of decay. did a rewrite, but half of that got chucked out. 119 00:10:12.539 --> 00:10:13.980 Right, right. 120 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:14.399 Yeah. 121 00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:16.320 So he's actually done a lot. 122 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:23.519 It's really interesting that in all the docket, the documentaries for this season on all the DVDs, never talk about, he never talks about why he left the show. 123 00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:32.879 Like in that opinion that you've just voiced, but I thought it was that he wanted a pay rise and John Nathan Turner couldn't get one or didn't bite hard enough for it. 124 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:35.279 I just, you know, it's one of those fan... 125 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:41.700 Yeah, well, myths, and, you know, the thing is, it's entirely possible that he might have said, look, you know, I can't keep up. 126 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:47.399 I love this job, but I can't keep up with the workload unless you pay me more and John and John might have said, well, look, no, we don't have the budget. 127 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:48.480 And Chris said, okay then. 128 00:10:48.539 --> 00:11:00.360 You know, it's, it's, I suppose we're so used to 1980s Doctor Who being this place where creatives leave the show really angry, as we'll see in later seasons. 129 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:06.659 Perhaps we just don't hear that much about Chris because it was just a business decision. 130 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:12.360 You know, we never really question why Anthony Reed left the show where Douglas Adams left the show. 131 00:11:12.419 --> 00:11:15.299 They kind of did their year or 18 months and then went, okay, that was fun. 132 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.379 I'm off. 133 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.840 And certainly much like Anthony Rude. 134 00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:23.279 Chris Bidme did come back and produce more screws. 135 00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:31.259 On the science of how Birok chooses a destination, I think that's why the magical elements work. 136 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.379 Birok looks into the future, right? 137 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:40.080 He chooses this potential future where the gateway can be physically accessed with an atmosphere. 138 00:11:40.139 --> 00:11:42.899 And he creates that future. 139 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:45.899 And because it's a closed system, like eSpace. 140 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.120 The laws of coincidence are different. 141 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:48.899 Yeah. 142 00:11:48.899 --> 00:11:53.820 And it's great that you've said all that, but if you're watching it and you don't understand that. 143 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.320 Like, I don't understand it. 144 00:11:55.379 --> 00:11:58.980 It becomes very confusing and you just have to exert certain things. 145 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:02.519 And I know that you're saying that you feel that it doesn't affect your enjoyment of it. 146 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:12.240 It does affect mine, and I think that's one of the threads throughout my entire time watching Doctor Who is that for me, in my head, it has to make some sort of, I have to get an explanation. 147 00:12:12.299 --> 00:12:13.500 That's just me. 148 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:22.139 And so that's why for destroy, when bizarre things are happening, it's like, sometimes I think the direction's great and I like it for that. 149 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:29.220 Other times I think the direction's not so good, or if I don't get an explanation somewhere along the way that makes sense, I sort of begin to turn off. 150 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:33.360 Yeah, that's entirely fair because this is another one that Rod didn't like either. 151 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:34.320 He gave it 4 out of 10. 152 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:40.799 He really hated the ending, which we'll come back to later, but he hated the lack of explanation as well. 153 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:49.440 And these ideas have actually been used far more successfully in 2 episodes of Star Trek, the Next Generation. 154 00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:51.299 Which one? 155 00:12:51.299 --> 00:13:03.720 Contagion, which is a season 2 episode, which deals with the relics of a race called the Iconians, who have these gateways and they used to plunder other worlds and rule other worlds with that, but they were all killed by an uprising. 156 00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:07.259 Oh, is that the terrible one where... got Carolyn Seymour in it. 157 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.179 And the Enterprise's sistership explodes. 158 00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:12.720 Yes, yeah, and Carolyn Seymour's a Romulan captain. 159 00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:15.000 It's the 1st of her 2 turns as a Romulan captain. 160 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:15.960 Yes, that's right. 161 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:19.139 And but before Linda Thorson turns up as a Cardassian. 162 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.899 The other episode that I think is influenced a little. 163 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:23.460 Not quite as much. 164 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.019 But remember me. 165 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.240 I love Remember Me. 166 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:30.840 That's a Beverly Crusher one. where she's in a collapsing universe. 167 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:35.100 And that has the wonderful exchange of computer. 168 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:36.360 What is the nature of the universe? 169 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:40.799 The universe is an oblate spheroid, 650 metres in diameter. 170 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:51.240 You know, and that's the same kind of, that's the same kind of messing with your mind that you get with this story with the collapsing and, oh, it's further going there than coming back. 171 00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:53.940 And because we don't objectively see that as an audience. 172 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:54.720 Yeah. 173 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:00.000 Even though there's people talking about it all the time, it still comes as a bit of a surprise to us. 174 00:14:00.059 --> 00:14:17.340 I mean, it makes sense, and it sounds like a pretty bid-made kind of idea that mass warps, space time, you know, um, and the, the mass of the ship is, is, you know, enormous because it's made out of dwarf star alloy. 175 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:19.200 And so that's why the thing collapses. 176 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:20.700 It collapses because of them. 177 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:25.379 You know, we haven't really talked much about the sheep or the crew or anything like that. 178 00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:27.720 Yeah, go on, Todd. 179 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:28.740 No, no, no. 180 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:33.539 I was just going to say, I like, I love that term dwarf star alloy. 181 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.000 I love the fact that the space is contracting. 182 00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:41.460 Like, that's all the stuff that I understand, and I know that they've got to get out of there because it's going to, you know, everything's going to blow up. 183 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:48.480 And those elements that I hang on to when I'm watching this, for me, to make, to make, make sense. 184 00:14:48.539 --> 00:15:00.899 The crew are really interesting. having Royce and Aldo as sort of like, you've got the bridge crew and you've got like them as more, the common man downstairs, but the fact is, they are slave traders, basically. 185 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:02.879 And so they're the comedy characters. 186 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:08.519 You know, they're kind of like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, also, you know, Stefano and Trinculo or something like that. 187 00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:09.179 Yeah, yeah. 188 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:11.519 Or Yaffet Koso's character in Alien. 189 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:12.720 You remember that? 190 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.980 There's there's two. 191 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:14.820 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 192 00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:16.860 This draws massively from Alien. 193 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:23.279 But, and they're funny and we laugh at them and, you know, people mistake them for each other over the phone and stuff. 194 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:26.639 And then they kill a bunch of the slaves trying to revive them. 195 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:28.860 I know, it's horrific. 196 00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:33.659 It's very, like, I kind of think it's very homesey in the fact that you've got these 2 characters. 197 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:38.220 I mean, I feel I feel torn at the end that the whole crew die, you know? 198 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.919 Like, like, did they all need to die? 199 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:41.940 Like, I mean, I don't know. 200 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:47.100 Like, I mean, it's a real There's a practical problem with leaving someone alone. 201 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.419 Yes, yes, yes. 202 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.059 We're not having the same episode tied twice. 203 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:54.600 You know, it's like it's like Doctor Who magazine, having the mutants twice. 204 00:15:54.659 --> 00:15:57.779 In the original script. with Roy Sinaldo. 205 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:06.539 They were originally Aldo and Waldo, and they were going to look visually similar, and that was the gag of no one being able to tell them apart. 206 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.360 Barry Letts vetoed it. 207 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:12.779 He's like, no, when, you know, when not, it's too silly. 208 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.120 This is exactly the kind of thing we've been fighting against. 209 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:21.000 Instead, they go for the classic visual gag of one being very tall and one being very short. 210 00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:27.539 And they do have some great comedy bits, like, oh, oh, the string in my legs gone, sir. 211 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.159 Or you push eye pull. 212 00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:30.600 Yeah, yeah, you push my pull. 213 00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:34.980 But also before Rawvik fires the MZ. 214 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.860 They have that whole thing about, oh, he's always done right by us, hasn't he? 215 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:38.580 And then they run off. 216 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:45.480 It was Stephen Gallagher's deliberate intent that you wouldn't see them again after that. 217 00:16:45.539 --> 00:16:47.700 So maybe those 2 survived somehow. 218 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.179 According to Stephen Gallagher, they're not on the ship at the end. 219 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.940 They've run off into the void because they're just sick of all this crap. 220 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:54.840 Right. 221 00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:55.679 It's interesting. 222 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:57.240 I don't really like them in episode one. 223 00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:59.399 I warm to them as we go through. 224 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:03.659 I also think Packard and Lane are really well played as well. 225 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:09.119 I think they're given enough to do and both of the actors give sympathetic performances. 226 00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.279 Yeah, we have the great Kenneth Cope. 227 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:17.220 Um, a.k.a. um, Hopkirk deceased. as, uh, Packard, yeah, yeah. 228 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:23.759 And he's described in the script as, you know, someone who's just given up on any sort of fight. 229 00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:25.740 You definitely get that impression with his character. 230 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.400 Like there's that great sort of petulant teenager that he does at the beginning. 231 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:30.900 Like, a report from the helm. 232 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:31.619 That's you, remember? 233 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.519 And he just kind of shrokes me. 234 00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:33.240 What do you want me to say? 235 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:36.960 Well, he has a bit of a tizzy. 236 00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:42.900 It's it's that, you know, these aren't kind of space people like the Merestrons from Planet of Evil. 237 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:56.640 You know, these are these are, and again, it's really heavily ripped off alien, I think, where inalien, from which, you know, this story borrows its opening scene, where we're just crawling around the ship. 238 00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.779 In alien. 239 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:05.819 Everyone's sort of identifiable kind of working class people, they're eating Chinese food out of takeaway containers, they're smoking. 240 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.039 You know, they're not space people. 241 00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:14.039 They're not, you know, people from 2001 or that film with Michael York. 242 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:15.660 What's that film with Michael York? 243 00:18:15.779 --> 00:18:16.319 Logan's Run. 244 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:17.039 Logan's run. 245 00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:18.539 You know, they're not they're not space people. 246 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.339 They're just sort of ordinary identifiable people. 247 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:21.359 And I think that's it here. 248 00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:24.480 Rawvik's the boss, he's a bit of a dick. 249 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:26.220 Everyone's sick of him. 250 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.019 They're all kind of bored of their jobs. 251 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:32.099 They're like the morox, only, you know, with less eyebrows. 252 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.880 So they are identifiable. 253 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:37.980 They are kind of sympathetic for that reason. 254 00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:40.680 Are they, are they from e-space? 255 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:41.579 Were they from M space? 256 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.900 No, they're from they're from end space. 257 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:48.660 And so they've come in to capture all of... 258 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.700 Yeah, you see, I'm not very clear about that either. 259 00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:53.460 Yeah, it's not made terribly clear. 260 00:18:53.519 --> 00:19:00.359 I think what it is, is the Farrells essentially used to live at 0 coordinates. 261 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:04.140 So they could plunder eSpace and end space, and what have you. 262 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:09.839 Yeah, I think they probably are from end space, end space, because they're looking for a way out as well. 263 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:10.740 Yeah. 264 00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.619 They've been stuck in e-space for months. 265 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:20.039 They haven't been stuck in 0 coordinates for months because when they go outside, they're really surprised by the white void and they haven't seen the gateway before. 266 00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:21.420 They've been stuck in e-space as well. 267 00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:24.180 Rawvik. 268 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:26.880 He's really interesting, I think, is a villain. 269 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.079 He's utterly humourless. 270 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:31.799 He does do that unfortunate laugh at the very end. 271 00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:33.960 I'm finally getting things done. 272 00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:34.859 Yeah. 273 00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:37.920 He's gone, he's gone. 274 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:39.599 He's just gone completely insane now. 275 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:42.480 But he's utterly humanless. 276 00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:46.859 Like Lane tries a joke at one and Rawvik just shuts him down. 277 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.960 He's got no sense of humour. 278 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:54.299 He's utterly boring and pedestrian and mundane, and that makes him the villain. 279 00:19:54.359 --> 00:20:02.940 And, you know, he's he's like this in a job where he's transporting lots of slaves and he's prepared to risk the lives of the slaves. 280 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:08.039 Uh, you know, in fact, let them all die, frankly. 281 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.380 They're all horrible people. 282 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:14.400 You know, they're bored with their jobs, but their jobs are transporting slaves around the place. 283 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:23.519 But I think it's a really tough role to actually play because sometimes he has to be reasonable at times and other times show that he is completely humourous. 284 00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:33.720 And initially it was a performance that I disliked for many years, but watching him again, I actually think he does a really good job navigating the waters of this character to make him believable. 285 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:44.640 So I actually, again, initially, when I begin to watch it, having not seen it for ages, it's sort of like, oh, you, but then as it goes along, I'm thinking, no, you're doing a very good job. 286 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:51.059 It's the banality of evil thing, but he's just some guy. doing a job and not thinking about the moral implications of it. 287 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:52.079 Yeah. 288 00:20:52.140 --> 00:21:00.839 I think it's a big step up from his, you know, essentially, in terms of function and in terms of mentality. 289 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:04.259 He's like the co-pilot, from the horns of Nimon. 290 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.500 Yeah, look at the difference, you know? 291 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.099 We get interiority with his character. 292 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.079 The scene I love him most in. 293 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.319 And, yeah, he does a horrible thing. 294 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:26.460 But the scene I love him most in is when he says, well, we'll just revive all the Farrells and everyone just looks at him and he shouts, let's do something for a change. 295 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.900 And you actually, you don't necessarily sympathise with this character. 296 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:35.519 But you understand the desperation. 297 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:40.319 Whereas, The Doctor Romana are told to do nothing. 298 00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:41.519 Yeah, yeah. 299 00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:43.559 And in fact, that's the interesting thing. 300 00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:49.859 The, the, the way time works on these sort of principles of randomness and and the way it's cyclical. 301 00:21:49.920 --> 00:22:04.859 So, you know, originally, the Farrells have slaves and the oppressors, and then it switches around and they become slaves and the oppressed, and then it switches back, they're freed and they're going around. 302 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.559 And the way that's achieved is by doing nothing. 303 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:14.880 And it's Rawvik's determination to get something done that actually gets them all killed. 304 00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:19.259 The original title for the story was dream time. 305 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:26.640 It was only change to Warriors Gate when it was put into the e-space framework, because originally it was going to be a dream world. 306 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:27.240 Right. 307 00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:34.440 But then when it was put into the e-space framework, they were given, you know, a science behind it rather than being the dream world. 308 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:38.339 And Stephen Gallagher was inspired by what he'd read of the Aboriginal Dream Time. 309 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:48.240 And a big part of the aboriginal dream time is things being cyclical and things going in cycles and this has happened before and this will happen again. 310 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:53.099 Birok has that wonderful line of the we enslaved themselves. 311 00:22:53.160 --> 00:23:00.720 And as the doctor points out in episode four, you're not talking about the human slaves you had, you're talking about yourself. 312 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:18.240 And that is something, I think, that might have been a bit more relatable for children, because, of course, they would have learned about the Roman Empire and they would have learned about the Greeks and the ancient cultures, which did have slaves, but ended up sinking into decadence. you know, which is what happens to the Farrells. 313 00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:25.799 And you've got the feral banquet scene being counterpointed with Rawvik's men having their pickles. 314 00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:32.400 And, you know, Rawvik trying to give this great rousing speech of, we've all got to stay alive and they're handing around sandwiches and chicken legs, you know. 315 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.740 It's, it's like, it's like Beckett. 316 00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:36.119 It's theatre of the absurd. 317 00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:37.440 It's the dumb waiter. 318 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:41.039 In fact, that is one of my absolute favourite things about the story. 319 00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:51.299 So the banquet scene with Birok. isn't really in the past because the doctor and Birok are having a conversation about what it was like then. 320 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.960 It's not, it's not, they haven't been transported back into the past. 321 00:23:55.019 --> 00:24:00.059 It's like some kind of representation of what happened. 322 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.740 And the doctor in Birok aren't really involved in it because they're commenting on it as it happens. 323 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.519 And then the Gundans rush in with their incredible music. 324 00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:12.839 And then suddenly we flick to the present day and it's a different banquet. 325 00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:14.400 You know, the gunman's coming. 326 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:18.119 They smash the axe into the table and suddenly the axe is covered in cobwebs. 327 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:25.859 The thing is, though, if the doctor and Birok aren't really there, who knocked over the goblet that the doctor picks up? 328 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.420 It's so clever, isn't it? 329 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.400 They are really there, but it's not a real thing. 330 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:33.000 There's some strange time thing happening, but that's right. 331 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:41.160 When the doctor 1st goes into that room, he picks a goblin up that's been knocked over on the table and then later in episode three. 332 00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:43.319 He knocks the goblet over. 333 00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:50.279 But that cliffhanger is so tremendous where, you know, suddenly he's surrounded by Rawik. 334 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:52.980 We don't see them travel through time or anything. 335 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:53.940 They're just there. 336 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:59.700 And it's the axe just suddenly covered with cobwebs that shows that time has passed. 337 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:04.920 And I agree, you can't tell what's happening or what's the state of any of this is. 338 00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:07.680 But aesthetically, it's so great. 339 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:10.200 I agree with you. 340 00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:11.339 Aesthetically, it is so great. 341 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.099 I've got my hands in my head, everyone. 342 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:29.700 The boys are having this conversation and it is that aspect of the story that does my head in because I still don't understand how they can be in that one place and then suddenly, just because an axe goes into a table, they're suddenly magically transported back into where everybody else is, I just don't understand. 343 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:39.119 No, and it's not explained, presumably it's something Birok does, but, you know, like it's such a great visual and such a terrific clute hanger, but I don't care. 344 00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:40.440 But I do. 345 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:45.119 So it's sort of like, you know, great Pepe, what? 346 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:46.200 You know? 347 00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.799 But also, like, what's the nature of that world? 348 00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:56.339 Like it's clearly black and white photographs for budgetary reasons, I think, because we're just shooting in the studio and there's no location stuff. 349 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.980 Well, Paul Joyce took those photographs themselves. 350 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:03.240 He went to that country house with his some girlfriend at the time and took these photos. 351 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:08.579 I believe what his intent was because, if you like, it was a replay. 352 00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:10.740 It wasn't the original time, so it lacked. 353 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.019 It lacked some of the original detail. 354 00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:16.559 It doesn't explain why Romana, when Romana goes through at the end. 355 00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:18.000 It's still black and white, but there you are. 356 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:27.779 I'd like to talk about Paul Joyce a bit because he is fascinating and I would actually love to have him in the new series as a director. 357 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:31.259 You know, he's trying a lot of different shots. 358 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:38.339 You talked about like the original shots that we 1st see, which are a take on alien, you were saying. 359 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.519 And I sit there going, what is this? 360 00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:42.900 Why have we got these shots? 361 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:43.799 I mean this is just me. 362 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:52.319 We've got the coin toss where it's heavily pixelated, which I think, you know, they're trying something different, but it doesn't quite work, doesn't quite work. 363 00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:54.180 Graham Harper responsible for some of that stuff. 364 00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:01.200 That was Paul Joyce, and the head of cereals tried to have the shot removed from the episode. 365 00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:02.400 He was so displeased with it. 366 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.339 Joyce put his foot down and sort of said, no, you're not. 367 00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:13.440 And I believe because John Nathan Turner gave the head of serials, his assurance that Paul Joyce would never be hired on the program again. 368 00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:14.940 But Joyce is actually fired. 369 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:16.019 Yes. 370 00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:20.579 And, and, it was like a weekend or something or a few days of shooting. 371 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:26.880 And in the Doco, he says he knew that they'd come back to him because he was the only one who had the whole picture in his head of how to shoot it. 372 00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.440 I have heard that version. 373 00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:30.059 I've also had the version where it was ours. 374 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:31.680 It was literally ours. 375 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.839 He was fired during a camera rehearsal. 376 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.859 Because the crew were getting frustrated with him. 377 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:42.779 And especially that shot at the beginning, that tracking shot where you can see the lights. 378 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:55.079 The lighting director threw a fit and the writing director, every studio session wrote letters to the head of cereals, talking about what an ass Paul Gallagher was. 379 00:27:55.140 --> 00:27:56.759 Sorry, Paul Joyce was. 380 00:27:56.819 --> 00:28:00.359 So he was fired during a rehearsal and he just kind of went, okay. 381 00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:01.559 Fair enough. 382 00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:03.240 He went to the BBC bar. 383 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.960 John Nathan Turner stepped in and said, I'm going to direct this. 384 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:14.880 A few hours later in the BBC bar and John Nathan Turner comes in and says, Okay, Paul, I think we need to find a way to make this work. 385 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:21.240 And it was because the way Paul Joseph wrote his camera scripts, only he could decipher them. 386 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:22.319 Clever man. 387 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:23.700 Clever man. 388 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.839 But, yeah, he's got these wonderful influences. 389 00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:34.619 He's got films like Orphe by Jean-Cocteau, which is where the imagery with the mirror comes from. 390 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:49.619 Those opening tracking shots as well as being inspired by Alien were inspired by roots. which is, of course, the series about the slaves being brought over to America, featuring LeVar Burton in one of his one of his earlier starring roles. 391 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.759 And so Paul Joyce looked for, as well as visual similarities. 392 00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:55.740 He looked for thematic similarities. 393 00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.539 There's a 1940s film called Kiss Me Deadly, which inspired a lot of his shots. 394 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:01.859 Now it's not a science fiction film. 395 00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:06.119 But for instance, that shot at the end where Rawvik is standing over the doctor. 396 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:17.640 That is a lift from Kiss Me Deadly, where you only, until the end, you only saw the villains, usually, you saw their legs and you saw people through their legs, you know, to imply that they can always get away. 397 00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:22.079 Won't Richard be really angry at us if we don't mention La Belle? 398 00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:26.039 Oh, la belle. also by our Jean-Cocteau. 399 00:29:26.099 --> 00:29:26.700 I believe. 400 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:31.740 Yeah, that was a huge inspiration, not only for the banquet hall and the banquet scene. 401 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.500 With the look of the Farrells as well. 402 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:46.559 The look of the Pharrells who started out, I think, as the thonks, and then became the fowls until a very late stage where someone realised they were already thaws, and finally became the Pharrells. 403 00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:54.720 And to add to the realism, the orange suits that the crew wears. are the same suits NASA technicians wear. 404 00:29:54.779 --> 00:29:55.319 Right. 405 00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.500 But Rawvik's uniform was designed from scratch. 406 00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:13.440 June Hudson designed a beautiful costume for Lala Ward, pretty much a Rococo style outfit because June Hudson and Lala Ward's interpretation of Romana, as we've seen quite often, is male clothes suited to the female form. 407 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:16.619 So she was going to be in this Rococo outfit. 408 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:23.579 For those of you who don't know what a rococo outfit is, the clockwise soldiers in the girl in the fireplace, David Tenant story. 409 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:28.500 Now, the only problem with June Hudson's costume is that everything was in green. 410 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:29.400 Nice. 411 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:34.140 So she would have just vanished into the white. 412 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:42.359 So the top she eventually wore was actually inspired by a top that was a favourite of Paul Joyce's wife. 413 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:49.680 So I think there must have been some visual similarity because I think when that happened, Paul Joyce said, you know what, I think I've got an idea of something Lala would look lovely in. 414 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:56.220 And she, you know, she does look all floaty and ethereal as she wanders about and she gets that wonderful scene very early on with the privateer crew. 415 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:58.619 Do you know, I don't like her in that scene. 416 00:30:58.680 --> 00:30:59.039 No? 417 00:30:59.099 --> 00:30:59.759 Which scene is it? 418 00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:03.599 So it's the one where she comes out and she's being all mysterious and the doctor. 419 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:13.980 She's, you know, one of that silly thing where she, this is the signal I'm going to give you, like, to the doctor, which I just think is so stupid. 420 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:15.359 No, I It doesn't work. 421 00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:16.740 No, I don't think it quite works. 422 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:27.960 And I think she needs to be being more like Tom, because part of this is that she leaves the doctor at the end to become the doctor, where she'll have a tarnish. 423 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:33.539 She'll be travelling with canine and she'll be going from planet to planet, freeing slaves. 424 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:40.440 So she's doing the doctor, but in a smaller universe, you know, so she's a sort of 2nd rate doctor. 425 00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:42.660 And so she comes out of the TARDIS. 426 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.059 She tells her companion to stay inside. 427 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:52.380 She's all zanian kind of mysterious and annoying like Tom. 428 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.259 But she doesn't quite get it right. 429 00:31:55.319 --> 00:32:03.720 And I think her normal thing where she's a little happier and a little bit more sort of lip and smiley would have worked better. 430 00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:10.380 And the other thing I don't like about that scene is that she's punished for being the doctor because she's immediately captured and strapped to a chair. 431 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.779 So I think that's a bit unfortunate. 432 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:13.920 But she can scream. 433 00:32:13.980 --> 00:32:16.859 I'll give her points on that over Mary Tam. 434 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.519 Yeah, yeah. 435 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.359 She does a great scream at the end of episode 2 or which... 436 00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:22.500 Yeah. 437 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:33.660 But it always concerns me when a companion starts talking about very early on in the story, you know, what if the doctor and I went different ways or there's just a line there. heightened sort of spidey senses start to blink. 438 00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:37.079 No, no, no, this could be the end of end of the companion. 439 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:39.599 And the canine thing where he can't come back through the mirror. 440 00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:40.319 Yeah, yeah. 441 00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:42.539 Can we talk about her departure? 442 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:43.019 Yeah. 443 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:46.619 Obviously, it was, you know, canine and her departure was publicised quite a lot. 444 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:50.519 This is the 1st story of the season not going up against Buck Rogers. 445 00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:55.740 And so suddenly the ratings are above 7000000 for the 1st time. 446 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.880 The only story of the season to have one episode above 8 million. 447 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:00.299 Right. 448 00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:05.460 And 2 of the 3 episodes that place in the top 70 are in this story. 449 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.559 So, you know, it's taken us 20 episodes to get half decent rating. 450 00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:13.319 Her departure in episode four. 451 00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:15.539 I just think is so rushed. 452 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:16.380 Yeah. 453 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:18.180 And I really hate Tom's. 454 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.700 I've always hated Tom's line. 455 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:22.259 You were the noblest Romana of them all. 456 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.619 For me, Mary Tam was like this... 457 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.519 No, it's a quote. 458 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.519 It's a quote from Julius Caesar. 459 00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:42.420 Well, okay, can I just finish and say, I really hate the line, and I just think it applies to Mary Tam more than it does to Lala Wood's incarnation, and was it an ad lib or was it scripted? 460 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.259 I think it was scripted because the look on Tom's face, his heart isn't in that line. 461 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:48.720 You know, they were probably fighting that day. 462 00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:49.619 Yeah, yeah. 463 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:50.160 I don't know. 464 00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:52.380 I still don't, I still dislike the line. 465 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:56.160 Yeah, because it can be read because we've had 2 Romanas. 466 00:33:56.220 --> 00:34:01.019 It can be read as talking to Lala rather than talking to Romana. 467 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:01.500 Yes. 468 00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:12.059 But Brutus is the final speech of Julius Caesar, I think, where Octavian comes in and talks about Brutus and says he was the noblest Roman of them all. 469 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:15.900 As I say, that line is that line is clunky. 470 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.300 The actual lines they have leading up to the departure. 471 00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:21.000 I don't think the script is at fault. 472 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.360 I feel like the filming of that scene was rushed. 473 00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:30.119 There's, they sort of just say the lines at each other and then, and then it's gone. 474 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:32.940 But the lines themselves are very nice, like, just, I'm not coming with you. 475 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.099 No more orders, you know. 476 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:38.039 I really like Lala's delivery there. 477 00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:38.940 Yeah, yeah. 478 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:41.340 Like, because she's relieved in a way. 479 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:42.119 She's happy. 480 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:43.980 Yeah, yeah. 481 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:45.420 It's not a sad departure. 482 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:46.019 No. 483 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:49.860 And those two, like you can't do a sentimental departure. 484 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:54.840 You can't do David Tennant and Billy Parker on different sides of the universe. 485 00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:56.639 I mean, they're going to different universes. 486 00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:00.900 You just can't do that with Tom because, you know, of what Tom's like. 487 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:09.239 And the 2 of them are kind of grown ups and it's not, you know, it's never, ever going to be soppy with them. 488 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:17.579 And so I quite like, you know, there's a lot of noise in the background, they're leaving in the middle of a kind of giant emergency and stuff. 489 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.039 And so it is really rushed. 490 00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:22.619 And then you do get that tag scene at the end. 491 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:29.519 Tom's not in it, but the TARDIS is there and Romana won as if he's going to be okay. 492 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:34.980 Well, we then do get a bit from Tom with Adric saying, will Romana be all right, and the doctor says she'll be superb. 493 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.019 And Tom is brilliant in that moment. 494 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:43.860 And you can tell he's the doctor talking about Romana and his Tom Baker talking about... you know that moment is great. 495 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:51.119 I think very early on that foreshadowing you referred to, Todd, when she says, what if we go our separate ways? 496 00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:54.539 That's one of Matthew Waterhouse's best moments to date. 497 00:35:54.599 --> 00:36:02.579 You know, he only has a few words, but he genuinely conveys the fear that this new family he's found with his own family dead is breaking apart. 498 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:08.039 And it doesn't, it doesn't carry through the story because Adrik is, Adrik is very underused in this story. 499 00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:10.980 You know, he disappears for vast ways of the plot. 500 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:22.199 I think that when we last see him in episode 3 and when we 1st see him in episode two, he's missing for about 20 minutes until he turns up on the laser and has that wonderful line of, I don't know what these buttons do, but it's pointing in your direction. 501 00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:25.320 It's so badly delivered that line, isn't it? 502 00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:27.539 He's really not very good, poor Matthew. 503 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:30.539 This story is not a showcase for him at all. 504 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:35.099 Like that walking around, keeping on tossing the coin where he's quite awkward. 505 00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.199 He shouts at Kana outside. 506 00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:39.719 I don't know, shouts at Kane, I've got notes here, people. 507 00:36:39.780 --> 00:36:43.440 Shouts, Patrick shouts at canine outside hell, dash, pathetic. 508 00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:48.300 Right, so there's obviously something that I just kind of went, it's that bit where he's going, quiet. 509 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:49.980 Oh, dear Lord. 510 00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:50.940 And then I've got part four. 511 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:51.659 Where is Hendrick? 512 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:52.199 Where is he? 513 00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:52.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 514 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:55.139 And then there's that continuity thing where he's got canine's ear. 515 00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.360 Yeah, and then the ears are back. 516 00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.260 And he is back. 517 00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:01.860 It's like, yeah, it's not this is not his finest album. 518 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:06.659 There's that bit where they're hiding under the blanket and Romana says to him, follow them. 519 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:07.800 Follow, follow. 520 00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:11.099 It's because it's because Matthew missed his queue. 521 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:12.719 Like he was meant to go on the 1st follow. 522 00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:16.619 But Lala knew how behind they were in terms of filming. 523 00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.340 They had various overruns, the longest of which was half an hour. 524 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.400 They had a half hour overrun on the 1st day of filming. 525 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.780 I think actually, I think that's why Paul Joyce was initially fired. 526 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:32.880 Yeah, but Lala stays in character, so they don't have to retake the scene. 527 00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:38.340 In preparation for these podcasts, I watch DVDs with the info text on the bottom. 528 00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.800 Which is, yeah, it's very informative. 529 00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:48.960 But that wonderful bit where the doctor's going to confront Royal Vic and says to Romana, it's it's time you obey orders. 530 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:50.159 It's long past time. 531 00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:57.000 You don't know where it is, but Adrik then says, well, I'm coming too, and Romana gives him the same spiel as the doctor. 532 00:37:57.059 --> 00:38:02.579 The caption that comes up on the screwed at that moment is, can you tell that Lala Ward and Matthew Waterhouse didn't really get on? 533 00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:13.679 I, I, you know, I have no confirmation of this, but I believe that they, I believe that Lala still doesn't rate Matthew very highly, possibly. 534 00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:22.619 Well, he's, um, he is fairly frank about how he felt she treated him in his autobiography. 535 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:23.159 Yeah. 536 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.800 Which is available in all good bookstores. 537 00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:26.579 It's actually pretty good. 538 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:27.659 It's a great read. 539 00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.059 And some pretty terrible bookstores as well, let's Big Frank. 540 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:31.980 You know, that's not an indication of the book. 541 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:40.980 The other part I really love about the ending is Romana's last line, like, and we're going to help free them. 542 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:42.360 I think it's something we should do. 543 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.820 Wittingly, possibly unwittingly. 544 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:52.860 You know, 3 years ago we had Graham Williams start and he was appalled that the doctor had this, had a lack of any responsibility and wasn't answerable to anyone. 545 00:38:53.579 --> 00:39:02.940 The character that Graham Williams introduces as his ideal companion character to start having a moral compass ends up having... 546 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:17.880 Probably the greatest moral compass of a leading companion, maybe equal with Joe Grant, of I'm leaving explicitly to devote my life to helping other people because that's what the doctor does. 547 00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:20.460 And I think maybe that's the response to Graham Williams. 548 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:31.199 The doctor is such a great character and thus Romana becomes such a great character, not because he has a responsibility or a duty to help people, but because he does it anyway. 549 00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:31.860 Yeah. 550 00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:38.940 And that's how Romano leaves as well because Rod and I had a long discussion about this departure because he hates it. 551 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.980 He hates how perfunctory it is. 552 00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:47.039 He hates that free not that she's going off to free slaves, but she's going to have a horrible life and this, that, the other. 553 00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:50.579 Like, he really hates companion departures where they're killed or they have a horrible life. 554 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:52.980 You know, he's like, your life should be made better by the doctor. 555 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.219 But I'm saying, well, no, her life is made better, but that doesn't mean it's easy. 556 00:39:56.280 --> 00:39:58.199 Yeah, no, she goes off to be the doctor. 557 00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:00.300 Yeah, they're going to build the TARDIS. 558 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:03.420 They're going to travel around e-space fighting oppression. 559 00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:04.920 It's exactly what the doctor does. 560 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:06.599 She's going to be the doctor. 561 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:08.940 She's going to be superb. 562 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.199 She is superb. 563 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:17.219 I get, you know, on another slightly different hack, you know, the links to the 70s are now, you know, disappearing. 564 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.219 K9's been in the show for almost 4 years, Romana for three. 565 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:26.219 You know, this is point, this is where the 80s are really, you know, if we didn't know that we were in the 80s, We are now going to be. 566 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.400 Well, and truly, the 70s are long gone. 567 00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:34.139 And in fact, it's Xander for whom I haven't quoted for a long time, so here goes. 568 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:47.460 He says that the way that the regeneration is handled is that Tom's show is just gradually dismantled around him, and Davison's show is introduced before Davison comes in. 569 00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:53.820 And so, you know, that's what's going to happen over the next few stories, well, the next two. 570 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:57.900 You know, by the time Tom leaves, the program is just not recognisably his. 571 00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.880 And this is the biggest shakeup. 572 00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:02.519 I think we've had in a season for a very, very long time. 573 00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:13.860 Yeah, the only comparable one I can think of is where we start season 4 with the 1st Dr. Ben and Polly and end it with the 2nd Dr. Jamie and Victoria. 574 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:24.179 You know, and the format, the stars, the companions, the producers, the script editor, all change in the course of 9 stories. 575 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:24.780 Yeah. 576 00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:27.780 And, you know, we have a similar thinking over the course of seven. 577 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.380 But there's much more creative unity here, obviously. 578 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:32.940 It is a very deliberate thing. 579 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:38.639 Like it's retooling the program deliberately, whereas season 4 is what the hell are we doing? 580 00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:48.179 Apparently, it was also around the time of rehearsals for this that Tom decided he was going to leave. 581 00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:57.599 It's part of the reason that because very often when the show got into the studio and there might be a moment of the script that doesn't work. 582 00:41:57.659 --> 00:42:12.119 So, for instance, there was meant to be a comedic moment in here which Barry lets it let through of Royce or Aldo behind Packard's console repairing it and sort of popping their head up and having a chat with Packard. 583 00:42:12.179 --> 00:42:13.980 But whenever Rawvik turned around. 584 00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:16.980 They'd be behind the console, so they thought Packard was talking to himself. 585 00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:23.579 But yeah, then Packard's console is up against a rail on the upper floor and they couldn't do it. 586 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:30.119 Now, normally that scene would have been reworked, but Bidmead was off writing Legopolis because suddenly Tom was leaving. 587 00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:31.619 Ah. 588 00:42:31.619 --> 00:42:35.820 Final word about scripting on this, this wasn't the original story for this slot. 589 00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:39.539 It was originally a story called Sealed Orders. 590 00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:41.039 By Christopher Priest. 591 00:42:41.099 --> 00:42:46.019 By Christopher Priest, who would later pitch stories for next seasons, also unsuccessful. 592 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.800 But the premise was going to be... 593 00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:55.440 Multiple times as a multiple doctors are rising after the TARDIS lands inside itself. 594 00:42:55.500 --> 00:43:05.760 And the storyline, and I think some of the scripts were delivered, but it was deemed to be unworkable for television, i.e. we can't afford this on Doctor Who's budget. 595 00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:10.800 But, yeah, obviously, bid me like the idea of tartuses inside tartuses. 596 00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:13.679 Do we in a fortnight? 597 00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:14.159 Yes. 598 00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:20.099 Before we go, do we think that this script is appropriate for Doctor Who on television at this time? 599 00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:21.300 Yes. 600 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:22.679 Yeah, I do. 601 00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:27.719 I think that what's happening is after the show being in a bit of a rut. 602 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:33.659 Um, you get Bidmead coming along and showing us what it can do. 603 00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:40.679 And, uh, as I said, everything is scientists, uh, in the Bidmead era. 604 00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:42.900 And I like that this is a break from that. 605 00:43:42.960 --> 00:44:00.239 I like that it does magic in a way that those odd ball stories like the mind robber or the celestial toy maker do, but that it does it in that sort of mid-median sort of science, alchemy, context. 606 00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:07.079 Um, it's variety, you know, I think this season is really, really strong because it does a lot of different things. 607 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.719 Within its thematic structure. 608 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:15.179 Yeah, yeah. where it's still all about entropy, it's still all about science and superstition. 609 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:22.260 You know, I think it's a really strong season and I like this story as part of it. 610 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:27.900 Before we finish up, I'd just like to relay something from Paul Joyce, the director. 611 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:40.860 Now, I mentioned earlier that the lighting director, lighting engineer, uh, would write letters having a go about him, and his main criticism of Paul Joyce is that Paul Joyce's methods would be better suited to working on film than the environment of television. 612 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.960 And apparently Paul pulled him up on that and said, well, Barry, I think you'll find. 613 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:50.760 That television will start moving more towards film. 614 00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.039 And maybe you'd like to come with me on that journey. 615 00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:15.840 Well, sadly, and without any mention of Sagan's death face, we come to the end of Warrior's Gate. 616 00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:26.519 We'll be back next week to discuss the Keeper of Truck, and until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter. 617 00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:31.079 Meanwhile, over on Bond Finger, we have an array of James Bond commentaries available. 618 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:35.219 Until next week, may none of your chains be made of dwarf star alloy. 619 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:36.300 Thank you very much and good night. 620 00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.079 Good night. 621 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:38.159 See you soon. 622 00:45:39.059 --> 00:45:45.780 I'm really sorry that I didn't mention that this is the first Doctor Who story with the apostrophe in the title. 623 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:57.179 That rule has flagged her entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley and Brendan Jones. 624 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:02.159 This episode, petulant teenage moment, was recorded on the 20th of March, 2016. 625 00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:06.000 The next episode will be released on May 15th. 626 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:14.460 Three days after this story, Romana negotiated $4 an hour internships for all the Farrells, thus setting them free. 627 00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.059 It's funny, you know, like, um, kill the moon. 628 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.000 Peter Harness was told to Henchcliff the size of it. 629 00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:30.119 No one ever tells anyone to bid me cry out of it, do they? 630 00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:32.639 I probably should, actually. 631 00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:37.500 Well, they could say, do you want a JNT? 632 00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:38.519 It could mean many things. 633 00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:40.320 Do you know what wiles of something out of it? 634 00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:44.460 Just massacre.