WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:12:07 1 00:00:30.179 --> 00:00:33.000 Hello, everybody, and welcome back. 2 00:00:33.000 --> 00:00:36.539 To Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who is a 3 00:00:36.539 --> 00:00:38.640 shadow of your past and of our future. 4 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:39.539 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:40.439 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:41.100 I'm Todd. 7 00:00:41.219 --> 00:00:47.579 And we are embarking on possibly the strangest, most ethereal, and 8 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:51.359 open to debate, Doctor Who story today, with Warrior's Gate. 9 00:00:57.420 --> 00:01:01.140 It's not as strange as the Celestial Toy Maker, is it? 10 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:07.260 Yeah, but it's good and strange, rather than terrible and slightly 11 00:01:07.260 --> 00:01:07.620 racist. 12 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:10.859 And I didn't even tend for that opening to rhyme, but, you know 13 00:01:10.859 --> 00:01:14.819 it's just the astral Jung and holistic view of this entire story. 14 00:01:14.939 --> 00:01:19.859 This is another one that I didn't sort of see as a kid. 15 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:23.819 I saw as a teenager, and getting ahead of ourselves a bit 16 00:01:23.819 --> 00:01:27.180 Ghostlight is a story that a lot of people hold up and say, you 17 00:01:27.180 --> 00:01:30.000 know, this is the most confusing and dense the Doctor Who ever 18 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:30.239 got. 19 00:01:30.299 --> 00:01:33.959 And I watched this in Ghostlight around the same time as each 20 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:35.760 other for the 1st time around 1516. 21 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:38.700 Ghostfly, I understood 1st time through. 22 00:01:38.819 --> 00:01:41.579 This, I had to watch it 4 times. 23 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:46.379 But even at the end of the 1st one, I'm like, I have no idea what 24 00:01:46.379 --> 00:01:48.599 that was about, but God, I love it. 25 00:01:48.900 --> 00:01:54.239 Very interesting because I just, as a kid, I never understood 26 00:01:54.239 --> 00:01:54.540 this. 27 00:01:54.599 --> 00:02:00.239 It was my least favourite story of the season and has been for 35 28 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:02.159 years, or how many years ago that it was made. 29 00:02:02.219 --> 00:02:03.480 It was always my least favourite. 30 00:02:03.540 --> 00:02:04.620 It's no longer my least favourite now. 31 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.099 The documentary, actually, on the DVD release is fantastic. 32 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:11.699 It really helped me to sort of piece together a lot of things in 33 00:02:11.699 --> 00:02:12.180 my mind. 34 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:14.039 It's been several weeks since I've watched it. 35 00:02:14.099 --> 00:02:15.000 So I've forgotten it all. 36 00:02:15.060 --> 00:02:15.900 So that's great. 37 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.139 But back to what you're saying about Ghost Light. 38 00:02:19.199 --> 00:02:20.819 I don't understand how people can say they don't get it. 39 00:02:20.879 --> 00:02:24.000 I mean, the 1st time through, some of the audio you can't hear, but 40 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:26.699 when you watch it, everything to me logically makes sense, whereas 41 00:02:26.699 --> 00:02:29.280 with this, I can still watch it now and go, I still don't 42 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:30.780 understand parts of this at all. 43 00:02:30.840 --> 00:02:33.719 I don't either, and I don't think it's a problem. 44 00:02:33.780 --> 00:02:38.159 And I think there are things that don't really make sense. 45 00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:40.680 Not in a bad way. 46 00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:42.120 I don't mean that as a criticism. 47 00:02:42.180 --> 00:02:45.780 I mean, I think there are things, like, why is the world beyond 48 00:02:45.780 --> 00:02:48.360 the gateway just black and white photo? 49 00:02:48.419 --> 00:02:50.879 It's like, you know, there's all sorts of things. 50 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:56.039 And I think, I think this is unusual in this season in that, and 51 00:02:56.039 --> 00:03:00.719 correct me if I'm wrong, every other story features scientists in 52 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.379 a major role, like every other story. 53 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:10.439 So you've got Harden, you've got the savants, you've got decks 54 00:03:10.439 --> 00:03:15.900 that are, you've got Kalmar and those horrible flea bitten people 55 00:03:15.900 --> 00:03:18.780 who are being oppressed by the Lords. 56 00:03:19.379 --> 00:03:22.979 Their comedy beards, more of which next week. 57 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:26.520 You know, you've got tree mass, like you've got the monitor. 58 00:03:26.580 --> 00:03:27.840 There's scientists. 59 00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:29.340 There's no scientists in this. 60 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:36.120 And in fact, time isn't working by scientific principles at all in 61 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:36.900 this story. 62 00:03:36.900 --> 00:03:42.780 And it really works on magical and poetical principles, I think. 63 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:45.060 Yeah, yeah, it does in a way. 64 00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:48.360 And I think also we need to look at what's happening on the other 65 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.719 side at the moment, the other side, not of the mirror, but over on 66 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:52.560 ITV. 67 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.879 Who currently have the immensely popular sapphire and steel. 68 00:03:56.939 --> 00:03:58.379 Is that immensely popular? 69 00:03:58.439 --> 00:04:01.620 It is, it is, because Saffron still was commissioned as a 70 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:02.460 children's show. 71 00:04:02.520 --> 00:04:05.639 If you watch the 1st Sapphire and Steel story. 72 00:04:05.699 --> 00:04:07.139 It is explicitly for children. 73 00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:10.439 The 2 main supporting cast in it, are children. 74 00:04:10.500 --> 00:04:10.860 Yeah. 75 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:15.840 But it was so popular with adults that if you look at the 2nd 76 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:16.980 sapphire and steel story. 77 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:18.180 That's incredibly adult. 78 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:19.139 There's no children. 79 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:23.220 There's, you know, you can't exactly take lots of death, but it 80 00:04:23.220 --> 00:04:25.319 deals with the idea of death a great deal. 81 00:04:25.379 --> 00:04:26.459 That's the one in the railway station. 82 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:31.259 Yeah, so that was incredibly popular and it was being billed at 83 00:04:31.259 --> 00:04:34.259 the time as, you know, this is ITV's answer to Doctor Who. 84 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:38.040 Now, of course, it didn't have the longevity, but it played with 85 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:40.980 the idea of time in ways that Doctor Who didn't tend to. 86 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.879 So, you know, if we think of classic Doctor Who, stories that play 87 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:46.500 with time have got, Dana Daleks. 88 00:04:46.560 --> 00:04:48.060 We've got this one. 89 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:49.920 Maybe Space Museum. 90 00:04:49.980 --> 00:04:52.860 Space Museum, Little. you know, in one episode. 91 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:56.639 And yeah, we get other stories where time is a factor like 92 00:04:56.639 --> 00:05:00.240 Hinchcliffe's favourite of an evil from millennia ago. 93 00:05:00.300 --> 00:05:01.259 Yeah. 94 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:05.220 But, well, that's one thing I really love about this story is its 95 00:05:05.220 --> 00:05:08.459 relationship with time and exploring time through language. 96 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:09.360 Yeah. 97 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:17.819 But I'm not quite sure that it is as magical, as you say, Nathan. 98 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.040 I think possibly it's magical in the Arthur C. 99 00:05:20.040 --> 00:05:24.959 Clark sense that sufficiently advanced technology is 100 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:26.160 indistinguishable from magic. 101 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.019 Except, I mean, think about it. 102 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:32.100 At the intersection between 2 universes, at the CVE. 103 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.899 And when the CVE is portrayed in full circle, is it the beginning 104 00:05:36.899 --> 00:05:37.980 of full circle? 105 00:05:37.980 --> 00:05:41.519 It's like a sort of video effect and it's got a technical term. 106 00:05:41.579 --> 00:05:43.319 It's a charged vacuum in boyment. 107 00:05:43.379 --> 00:05:47.279 It's a space phenomenon and it makes the TARDIS go all wibbly and 108 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:47.519 things. 109 00:05:47.579 --> 00:05:52.379 This time the gateway between the universes is a white void with a 110 00:05:52.379 --> 00:05:56.759 Gothic door in it, which is able to sustain life. 111 00:05:56.759 --> 00:05:59.040 Like, it's not a planet. 112 00:05:59.100 --> 00:06:00.240 It's got a floor. 113 00:06:00.300 --> 00:06:04.920 It's got like just whiteness, it has air, and for some reason it 114 00:06:04.920 --> 00:06:06.420 exists and is shrinking. 115 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:07.259 Yeah. 116 00:06:07.319 --> 00:06:11.339 So it is a magical realm like the, you know, the 1st episode of 117 00:06:11.339 --> 00:06:14.279 the land of fiction. is, you know, the nearest analogue, which is 118 00:06:14.279 --> 00:06:15.660 another just white studio. 119 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:19.740 And you can get through the magic mirrors if you've been touched 120 00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:23.639 by the time winds, but the time winds affect organic matter 121 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:27.120 differently from inorganic matter, which is why the doctor can go 122 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.220 through, but canine can't go back. 123 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:32.459 You know, that's magical, the fact that, you know, the rules of 124 00:06:32.459 --> 00:06:34.079 time affect life differently. 125 00:06:34.139 --> 00:06:38.639 And the fact that the iching works, you know, like when we 1st the 126 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:43.379 1st thing that we get about time in this is the very opening where 127 00:06:43.379 --> 00:06:49.259 Aldo and Royce, who are the 2 crew members on that ship, throw a 128 00:06:49.259 --> 00:06:54.779 coin, and the coin stops at the very apex of the coin toss. 129 00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:59.040 So time becomes about chance and outcomes and things. 130 00:06:59.100 --> 00:07:02.939 It stops at the point where it's going to be decided whether it'll 131 00:07:02.939 --> 00:07:03.839 be heads or tails. 132 00:07:03.899 --> 00:07:07.740 And then the Iching, which is also about throwing coins, is 133 00:07:07.740 --> 00:07:11.100 explicitly said to be a random sampling of events. 134 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:17.639 And so you can use the iching to foretell the future because the 135 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:23.279 tossing of coins is like a microcosm of, you know, the way that 136 00:07:23.279 --> 00:07:26.100 things are moving sort of generally in the universe. 137 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:28.620 And that's a kind of magical principle, I think. 138 00:07:28.740 --> 00:07:29.819 It is, it is. 139 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:35.220 And I think part of the problem with the story is, Well, in 140 00:07:35.220 --> 00:07:39.600 general, The script was very troubled, and I'll go back to that in 141 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:39.959 a moment. 142 00:07:40.019 --> 00:07:44.459 Something that isn't really made explicit in the dialogue is the 143 00:07:44.459 --> 00:07:48.540 way that Farrells navigate time travel. 144 00:07:48.600 --> 00:07:53.579 They look into the future, see all the possible things that can 145 00:07:53.579 --> 00:07:55.680 happen, and pick the one they want. 146 00:07:55.740 --> 00:08:00.660 So the way Birok navigates the ship, is he looks at all the 147 00:08:00.660 --> 00:08:04.379 possible destinations the ship can go to, and chooses the one they 148 00:08:04.379 --> 00:08:06.600 go to, and that's where they go, and that's why they need him as a 149 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:09.779 navigator, but that is, that's in Stephen Gallagher's original 150 00:08:09.779 --> 00:08:13.199 script, but it isn't explicitly explained on screen. 151 00:08:13.259 --> 00:08:14.399 It's really interesting. 152 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:18.060 Because when I was watching the documentary, his original script 153 00:08:18.060 --> 00:08:19.439 is more like a novel. 154 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.339 And then I was astounded to find out that Bidmead and the director 155 00:08:23.339 --> 00:08:27.300 Paul Joyce basically had a weekend in a house and Bidmead is 156 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:31.920 typing the script from his novel and Joyce is saying, well, I can 157 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:33.960 do that, I can do that, put that in and that sort of thing. 158 00:08:34.019 --> 00:08:34.440 Right. 159 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:38.340 And Hall dress is saying, oh, yes, Bidmead and I wrote the script 160 00:08:38.340 --> 00:08:40.740 based on that, and Bidmead is saying, well, I actually wrote the 161 00:08:40.740 --> 00:08:42.659 script, and the director was in the house at the same time. 162 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:46.620 Slight difference of opinion, but it is the sort of thing that 163 00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:48.059 Bidne routinely says. 164 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:49.019 Yes. 165 00:08:49.440 --> 00:08:53.519 He does finish the documentary by saying, you know, it was a very 166 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:56.940 interesting story and, you know, I think Stephen has to take a 167 00:08:56.940 --> 00:08:58.019 great deal of credit for that. 168 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:01.139 And I think Paul has to take a great deal of credit because he was 169 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:02.940 trying to do something the BBC had never seen. 170 00:09:03.000 --> 00:09:05.159 And I think I should take a bit of credit as well. 171 00:09:05.220 --> 00:09:07.259 And that's his life. 172 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:08.159 Do you, Chris? 173 00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:11.519 There's no knowing smile or anything. 174 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:14.639 It's just like, no, no, I worked on this, yes. 175 00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:20.700 I mean, I think Bidmead, you know, in a sense, Bidmead is right 176 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:26.460 because this whole season has this incredible thematic unity. 177 00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:32.220 It's got Bid Mead written all over it. in Castra Valve, you get 178 00:09:32.220 --> 00:09:34.919 something fairly similar in Frontios, you know, his 2 later 179 00:09:34.919 --> 00:09:35.519 scripts. 180 00:09:35.580 --> 00:09:37.440 Again, they're really bid meaty. 181 00:09:37.500 --> 00:09:40.860 So you can tell that he's hugely responsible and he tells the 182 00:09:40.860 --> 00:09:44.580 story that, you know, he only did one year because he had to 183 00:09:44.580 --> 00:09:47.639 rewrite all of the scripts so heavily that it was just sort of too 184 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:48.000 much work. 185 00:09:48.059 --> 00:09:49.559 And it's easy to believe. 186 00:09:49.620 --> 00:09:50.639 Yeah, yeah. 187 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:53.879 Well, here he's having to rewrite it, you know, keeper of truck 188 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:57.120 and he has to insert the master because Johnny Byrne's gone on 189 00:09:57.120 --> 00:09:57.600 holidays. 190 00:09:57.659 --> 00:09:59.460 And he's writing the last script. 191 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.259 He's worked heavily on full circle. 192 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.200 He ripped all the humour out of the leisure hive, and he certainly 193 00:10:04.200 --> 00:10:07.980 wrote the 1st episode of Megwos and left the rest of it to their 194 00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:08.519 own devices. 195 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:12.299 And state of decay. did a rewrite, but half of that got chucked 196 00:10:12.299 --> 00:10:12.480 out. 197 00:10:12.539 --> 00:10:13.980 Right, right. 198 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:14.399 Yeah. 199 00:10:14.460 --> 00:10:16.320 So he's actually done a lot. 200 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:18.899 It's really interesting that in all the docket, the documentaries 201 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:21.960 for this season on all the DVDs, never talk about, he never talks 202 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:23.519 about why he left the show. 203 00:10:23.580 --> 00:10:28.139 Like in that opinion that you've just voiced, but I thought it was 204 00:10:28.139 --> 00:10:31.200 that he wanted a pay rise and John Nathan Turner couldn't get one 205 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:32.879 or didn't bite hard enough for it. 206 00:10:32.940 --> 00:10:35.279 I just, you know, it's one of those fan... 207 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.179 Yeah, well, myths, and, you know, the thing is, it's entirely 208 00:10:39.179 --> 00:10:41.340 possible that he might have said, look, you know, I can't keep 209 00:10:41.340 --> 00:10:41.700 up. 210 00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:44.220 I love this job, but I can't keep up with the workload unless you 211 00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:46.799 pay me more and John and John might have said, well, look, no, we 212 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:47.399 don't have the budget. 213 00:10:47.460 --> 00:10:48.480 And Chris said, okay then. 214 00:10:48.539 --> 00:10:53.879 You know, it's, it's, I suppose we're so used to 1980s Doctor Who 215 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:58.500 being this place where creatives leave the show really angry, as 216 00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:00.360 we'll see in later seasons. 217 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.100 Perhaps we just don't hear that much about Chris because it was 218 00:11:05.100 --> 00:11:06.659 just a business decision. 219 00:11:06.779 --> 00:11:10.860 You know, we never really question why Anthony Reed left the show 220 00:11:10.860 --> 00:11:12.360 where Douglas Adams left the show. 221 00:11:12.419 --> 00:11:15.059 They kind of did their year or 18 months and then went, okay, that 222 00:11:15.059 --> 00:11:15.299 was fun. 223 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:16.379 I'm off. 224 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:18.840 And certainly much like Anthony Rude. 225 00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:23.279 Chris Bidme did come back and produce more screws. 226 00:11:23.340 --> 00:11:28.860 On the science of how Birok chooses a destination, I think that's 227 00:11:28.860 --> 00:11:31.259 why the magical elements work. 228 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.379 Birok looks into the future, right? 229 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:38.279 He chooses this potential future where the gateway can be 230 00:11:38.279 --> 00:11:40.080 physically accessed with an atmosphere. 231 00:11:40.139 --> 00:11:42.899 And he creates that future. 232 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:45.899 And because it's a closed system, like eSpace. 233 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:48.120 The laws of coincidence are different. 234 00:11:48.179 --> 00:11:48.899 Yeah. 235 00:11:48.899 --> 00:11:52.259 And it's great that you've said all that, but if you're watching 236 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:53.820 it and you don't understand that. 237 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:55.320 Like, I don't understand it. 238 00:11:55.379 --> 00:11:58.620 It becomes very confusing and you just have to exert certain 239 00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:58.980 things. 240 00:11:59.039 --> 00:12:01.259 And I know that you're saying that you feel that it doesn't affect 241 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:02.519 your enjoyment of it. 242 00:12:02.580 --> 00:12:05.519 It does affect mine, and I think that's one of the threads 243 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:08.759 throughout my entire time watching Doctor Who is that for me, in 244 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:11.759 my head, it has to make some sort of, I have to get an 245 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:12.240 explanation. 246 00:12:12.299 --> 00:12:13.500 That's just me. 247 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:18.240 And so that's why for destroy, when bizarre things are happening 248 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:21.779 it's like, sometimes I think the direction's great and I like it 249 00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:22.139 for that. 250 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:25.500 Other times I think the direction's not so good, or if I don't get 251 00:12:25.500 --> 00:12:28.139 an explanation somewhere along the way that makes sense, I sort of 252 00:12:28.139 --> 00:12:29.220 begin to turn off. 253 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:32.700 Yeah, that's entirely fair because this is another one that Rod 254 00:12:32.700 --> 00:12:33.360 didn't like either. 255 00:12:33.419 --> 00:12:34.320 He gave it 4 out of 10. 256 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:39.120 He really hated the ending, which we'll come back to later, but he 257 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:40.799 hated the lack of explanation as well. 258 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:48.059 And these ideas have actually been used far more successfully in 2 259 00:12:48.059 --> 00:12:49.440 episodes of Star Trek, the Next Generation. 260 00:12:49.860 --> 00:12:51.299 Which one? 261 00:12:51.299 --> 00:12:55.320 Contagion, which is a season 2 episode, which deals with the 262 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.860 relics of a race called the Iconians, who have these gateways and 263 00:12:58.860 --> 00:13:01.500 they used to plunder other worlds and rule other worlds with that 264 00:13:01.500 --> 00:13:03.720 but they were all killed by an uprising. 265 00:13:03.779 --> 00:13:07.259 Oh, is that the terrible one where... got Carolyn Seymour in it. 266 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.179 And the Enterprise's sistership explodes. 267 00:13:09.179 --> 00:13:12.720 Yes, yeah, and Carolyn Seymour's a Romulan captain. 268 00:13:12.779 --> 00:13:15.000 It's the 1st of her 2 turns as a Romulan captain. 269 00:13:15.059 --> 00:13:15.960 Yes, that's right. 270 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:19.139 And but before Linda Thorson turns up as a Cardassian. 271 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.899 The other episode that I think is influenced a little. 272 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:23.460 Not quite as much. 273 00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:25.019 But remember me. 274 00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.240 I love Remember Me. 275 00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:30.059 That's a Beverly Crusher one. where she's in a collapsing 276 00:13:30.059 --> 00:13:30.840 universe. 277 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:35.100 And that has the wonderful exchange of computer. 278 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:36.360 What is the nature of the universe? 279 00:13:36.419 --> 00:13:40.799 The universe is an oblate spheroid, 650 metres in diameter. 280 00:13:40.919 --> 00:13:45.299 You know, and that's the same kind of, that's the same kind of 281 00:13:45.299 --> 00:13:48.779 messing with your mind that you get with this story with the 282 00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:51.240 collapsing and, oh, it's further going there than coming back. 283 00:13:51.299 --> 00:13:53.940 And because we don't objectively see that as an audience. 284 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:54.720 Yeah. 285 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.440 Even though there's people talking about it all the time, it still 286 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.000 comes as a bit of a surprise to us. 287 00:14:00.059 --> 00:14:04.440 I mean, it makes sense, and it sounds like a pretty bid-made kind 288 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:12.360 of idea that mass warps, space time, you know, um, and the, the 289 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:16.019 mass of the ship is, is, you know, enormous because it's made out 290 00:14:16.019 --> 00:14:17.340 of dwarf star alloy. 291 00:14:17.399 --> 00:14:19.200 And so that's why the thing collapses. 292 00:14:19.259 --> 00:14:20.700 It collapses because of them. 293 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.120 You know, we haven't really talked much about the sheep or the 294 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:25.379 crew or anything like that. 295 00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:27.720 Yeah, go on, Todd. 296 00:14:27.779 --> 00:14:28.740 No, no, no. 297 00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:32.940 I was just going to say, I like, I love that term dwarf star 298 00:14:32.940 --> 00:14:33.539 alloy. 299 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:36.000 I love the fact that the space is contracting. 300 00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:38.460 Like, that's all the stuff that I understand, and I know that 301 00:14:38.460 --> 00:14:40.620 they've got to get out of there because it's going to, you know 302 00:14:40.620 --> 00:14:41.460 everything's going to blow up. 303 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:46.379 And those elements that I hang on to when I'm watching this, for 304 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:48.480 me, to make, to make, make sense. 305 00:14:48.539 --> 00:14:52.500 The crew are really interesting. having Royce and Aldo as sort of 306 00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:57.360 like, you've got the bridge crew and you've got like them as more 307 00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.539 the common man downstairs, but the fact is, they are slave traders 308 00:15:00.539 --> 00:15:00.899 basically. 309 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:02.879 And so they're the comedy characters. 310 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.480 You know, they're kind of like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, also 311 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:08.519 you know, Stefano and Trinculo or something like that. 312 00:15:08.580 --> 00:15:09.179 Yeah, yeah. 313 00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:11.519 Or Yaffet Koso's character in Alien. 314 00:15:11.580 --> 00:15:12.720 You remember that? 315 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:13.980 There's there's two. 316 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:14.820 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 317 00:15:14.940 --> 00:15:16.860 This draws massively from Alien. 318 00:15:16.919 --> 00:15:21.059 But, and they're funny and we laugh at them and, you know, people 319 00:15:21.059 --> 00:15:23.279 mistake them for each other over the phone and stuff. 320 00:15:23.340 --> 00:15:26.639 And then they kill a bunch of the slaves trying to revive them. 321 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:28.860 I know, it's horrific. 322 00:15:28.980 --> 00:15:31.860 It's very, like, I kind of think it's very homesey in the fact 323 00:15:31.860 --> 00:15:33.659 that you've got these 2 characters. 324 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.980 I mean, I feel I feel torn at the end that the whole crew die, you 325 00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:38.220 know? 326 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.919 Like, like, did they all need to die? 327 00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:41.940 Like, I mean, I don't know. 328 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:46.259 Like, I mean, it's a real There's a practical problem with leaving 329 00:15:46.259 --> 00:15:47.100 someone alone. 330 00:15:47.159 --> 00:15:48.419 Yes, yes, yes. 331 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.059 We're not having the same episode tied twice. 332 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.879 You know, it's like it's like Doctor Who magazine, having the 333 00:15:53.879 --> 00:15:54.600 mutants twice. 334 00:15:54.659 --> 00:15:57.779 In the original script. with Roy Sinaldo. 335 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:02.220 They were originally Aldo and Waldo, and they were going to look 336 00:16:02.220 --> 00:16:05.879 visually similar, and that was the gag of no one being able to 337 00:16:05.879 --> 00:16:06.539 tell them apart. 338 00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:09.360 Barry Letts vetoed it. 339 00:16:09.419 --> 00:16:12.779 He's like, no, when, you know, when not, it's too silly. 340 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.120 This is exactly the kind of thing we've been fighting against. 341 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:20.039 Instead, they go for the classic visual gag of one being very tall 342 00:16:20.039 --> 00:16:21.000 and one being very short. 343 00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:26.340 And they do have some great comedy bits, like, oh, oh, the string 344 00:16:26.340 --> 00:16:27.539 in my legs gone, sir. 345 00:16:27.720 --> 00:16:29.159 Or you push eye pull. 346 00:16:29.220 --> 00:16:30.600 Yeah, yeah, you push my pull. 347 00:16:30.659 --> 00:16:34.980 But also before Rawvik fires the MZ. 348 00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.379 They have that whole thing about, oh, he's always done right by us 349 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:37.860 hasn't he? 350 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:38.580 And then they run off. 351 00:16:39.120 --> 00:16:44.580 It was Stephen Gallagher's deliberate intent that you wouldn't see 352 00:16:44.580 --> 00:16:45.480 them again after that. 353 00:16:45.539 --> 00:16:47.700 So maybe those 2 survived somehow. 354 00:16:47.759 --> 00:16:51.000 According to Stephen Gallagher, they're not on the ship at the 355 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:51.179 end. 356 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.279 They've run off into the void because they're just sick of all 357 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:53.940 this crap. 358 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:54.840 Right. 359 00:16:54.899 --> 00:16:55.679 It's interesting. 360 00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:57.240 I don't really like them in episode one. 361 00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:59.399 I warm to them as we go through. 362 00:16:59.460 --> 00:17:03.659 I also think Packard and Lane are really well played as well. 363 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.859 I think they're given enough to do and both of the actors give 364 00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:09.119 sympathetic performances. 365 00:17:09.180 --> 00:17:11.279 Yeah, we have the great Kenneth Cope. 366 00:17:11.339 --> 00:17:17.220 Um, a.k.a. um, Hopkirk deceased. as, uh, Packard, yeah, yeah. 367 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:21.480 And he's described in the script as, you know, someone who's just 368 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.759 given up on any sort of fight. 369 00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:25.740 You definitely get that impression with his character. 370 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:29.039 Like there's that great sort of petulant teenager that he does at 371 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:29.400 the beginning. 372 00:17:29.460 --> 00:17:30.900 Like, a report from the helm. 373 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:31.619 That's you, remember? 374 00:17:31.680 --> 00:17:32.519 And he just kind of shrokes me. 375 00:17:32.579 --> 00:17:33.240 What do you want me to say? 376 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:36.960 Well, he has a bit of a tizzy. 377 00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:40.859 It's it's that, you know, these aren't kind of space people like 378 00:17:40.859 --> 00:17:42.900 the Merestrons from Planet of Evil. 379 00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:47.339 You know, these are these are, and again, it's really heavily 380 00:17:47.339 --> 00:17:52.440 ripped off alien, I think, where inalien, from which, you know 381 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:55.380 this story borrows its opening scene, where we're just crawling 382 00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:56.640 around the ship. 383 00:17:56.700 --> 00:17:57.779 In alien. 384 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:01.619 Everyone's sort of identifiable kind of working class people 385 00:18:01.619 --> 00:18:05.400 they're eating Chinese food out of takeaway containers, they're 386 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:05.819 smoking. 387 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.039 You know, they're not space people. 388 00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:13.380 They're not, you know, people from 2001 or that film with Michael 389 00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:14.039 York. 390 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:15.660 What's that film with Michael York? 391 00:18:15.779 --> 00:18:16.319 Logan's Run. 392 00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:17.039 Logan's run. 393 00:18:17.099 --> 00:18:18.539 You know, they're not they're not space people. 394 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:20.339 They're just sort of ordinary identifiable people. 395 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:21.359 And I think that's it here. 396 00:18:21.420 --> 00:18:24.480 Rawvik's the boss, he's a bit of a dick. 397 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:26.220 Everyone's sick of him. 398 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.019 They're all kind of bored of their jobs. 399 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:32.099 They're like the morox, only, you know, with less eyebrows. 400 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:35.880 So they are identifiable. 401 00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:37.980 They are kind of sympathetic for that reason. 402 00:18:38.099 --> 00:18:40.680 Are they, are they from e-space? 403 00:18:40.740 --> 00:18:41.579 Were they from M space? 404 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.900 No, they're from they're from end space. 405 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:48.660 And so they've come in to capture all of... 406 00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:50.700 Yeah, you see, I'm not very clear about that either. 407 00:18:50.819 --> 00:18:53.460 Yeah, it's not made terribly clear. 408 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:59.579 I think what it is, is the Farrells essentially used to live at 0 409 00:18:59.579 --> 00:19:00.359 coordinates. 410 00:19:00.420 --> 00:19:04.140 So they could plunder eSpace and end space, and what have you. 411 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:08.700 Yeah, I think they probably are from end space, end space, because 412 00:19:08.700 --> 00:19:09.839 they're looking for a way out as well. 413 00:19:09.900 --> 00:19:10.740 Yeah. 414 00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.619 They've been stuck in e-space for months. 415 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:16.440 They haven't been stuck in 0 coordinates for months because when 416 00:19:16.440 --> 00:19:18.839 they go outside, they're really surprised by the white void and 417 00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:20.039 they haven't seen the gateway before. 418 00:19:20.099 --> 00:19:21.420 They've been stuck in e-space as well. 419 00:19:22.380 --> 00:19:24.180 Rawvik. 420 00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:26.880 He's really interesting, I think, is a villain. 421 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.079 He's utterly humourless. 422 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:31.799 He does do that unfortunate laugh at the very end. 423 00:19:31.859 --> 00:19:33.960 I'm finally getting things done. 424 00:19:34.019 --> 00:19:34.859 Yeah. 425 00:19:35.819 --> 00:19:37.920 He's gone, he's gone. 426 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:39.599 He's just gone completely insane now. 427 00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:42.480 But he's utterly humanless. 428 00:19:42.539 --> 00:19:46.859 Like Lane tries a joke at one and Rawvik just shuts him down. 429 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.960 He's got no sense of humour. 430 00:19:49.019 --> 00:19:53.339 He's utterly boring and pedestrian and mundane, and that makes him 431 00:19:53.339 --> 00:19:54.299 the villain. 432 00:19:54.359 --> 00:19:58.920 And, you know, he's he's like this in a job where he's 433 00:19:58.920 --> 00:20:02.460 transporting lots of slaves and he's prepared to risk the lives of 434 00:20:02.460 --> 00:20:02.940 the slaves. 435 00:20:03.059 --> 00:20:08.039 Uh, you know, in fact, let them all die, frankly. 436 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:10.380 They're all horrible people. 437 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:12.779 You know, they're bored with their jobs, but their jobs are 438 00:20:12.779 --> 00:20:14.400 transporting slaves around the place. 439 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:17.460 But I think it's a really tough role to actually play because 440 00:20:17.460 --> 00:20:21.480 sometimes he has to be reasonable at times and other times show 441 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.519 that he is completely humourous. 442 00:20:23.579 --> 00:20:27.539 And initially it was a performance that I disliked for many years 443 00:20:27.539 --> 00:20:30.299 but watching him again, I actually think he does a really good job 444 00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:33.720 navigating the waters of this character to make him believable. 445 00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:39.299 So I actually, again, initially, when I begin to watch it, having 446 00:20:39.299 --> 00:20:42.480 not seen it for ages, it's sort of like, oh, you, but then as it 447 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.640 goes along, I'm thinking, no, you're doing a very good job. 448 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:48.420 It's the banality of evil thing, but he's just some guy. doing a 449 00:20:48.420 --> 00:20:51.059 job and not thinking about the moral implications of it. 450 00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:52.079 Yeah. 451 00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:57.420 I think it's a big step up from his, you know, essentially, in 452 00:20:57.420 --> 00:21:00.839 terms of function and in terms of mentality. 453 00:21:00.900 --> 00:21:04.259 He's like the co-pilot, from the horns of Nimon. 454 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.500 Yeah, look at the difference, you know? 455 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:11.099 We get interiority with his character. 456 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:13.079 The scene I love him most in. 457 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:16.319 And, yeah, he does a horrible thing. 458 00:21:16.380 --> 00:21:21.000 But the scene I love him most in is when he says, well, we'll just 459 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:23.519 revive all the Farrells and everyone just looks at him and he 460 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.460 shouts, let's do something for a change. 461 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.539 And you actually, you don't necessarily sympathise with this 462 00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:30.900 character. 463 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:35.519 But you understand the desperation. 464 00:21:35.819 --> 00:21:40.319 Whereas, The Doctor Romana are told to do nothing. 465 00:21:40.380 --> 00:21:41.519 Yeah, yeah. 466 00:21:41.579 --> 00:21:43.559 And in fact, that's the interesting thing. 467 00:21:43.619 --> 00:21:47.279 The, the, the way time works on these sort of principles of 468 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:49.859 randomness and and the way it's cyclical. 469 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:55.500 So, you know, originally, the Farrells have slaves and the 470 00:21:55.500 --> 00:22:00.119 oppressors, and then it switches around and they become slaves and 471 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.539 the oppressed, and then it switches back, they're freed and 472 00:22:03.539 --> 00:22:04.859 they're going around. 473 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.559 And the way that's achieved is by doing nothing. 474 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:13.319 And it's Rawvik's determination to get something done that 475 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:14.880 actually gets them all killed. 476 00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:19.259 The original title for the story was dream time. 477 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:24.119 It was only change to Warriors Gate when it was put into the e 478 00:22:23.460 --> 00:22:26.220 space framework, because originally it was going to be a dream 479 00:22:26.220 --> 00:22:26.640 world. 480 00:22:26.700 --> 00:22:27.240 Right. 481 00:22:27.299 --> 00:22:29.759 But then when it was put into the e-space framework, they were 482 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:34.079 given, you know, a science behind it rather than being the dream 483 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:34.440 world. 484 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.259 And Stephen Gallagher was inspired by what he'd read of the 485 00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:38.339 Aboriginal Dream Time. 486 00:22:38.460 --> 00:22:43.500 And a big part of the aboriginal dream time is things being 487 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:47.339 cyclical and things going in cycles and this has happened before 488 00:22:47.339 --> 00:22:48.240 and this will happen again. 489 00:22:48.660 --> 00:22:53.099 Birok has that wonderful line of the we enslaved themselves. 490 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.900 And as the doctor points out in episode four, you're not talking 491 00:22:57.900 --> 00:23:00.720 about the human slaves you had, you're talking about yourself. 492 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.380 And that is something, I think, that might have been a bit more 493 00:23:04.380 --> 00:23:06.599 relatable for children, because, of course, they would have 494 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.579 learned about the Roman Empire and they would have learned about 495 00:23:08.579 --> 00:23:13.140 the Greeks and the ancient cultures, which did have slaves, but 496 00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:16.500 ended up sinking into decadence. you know, which is what happens 497 00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:18.240 to the Farrells. 498 00:23:18.299 --> 00:23:23.339 And you've got the feral banquet scene being counterpointed with 499 00:23:23.339 --> 00:23:25.799 Rawvik's men having their pickles. 500 00:23:25.859 --> 00:23:29.339 And, you know, Rawvik trying to give this great rousing speech of 501 00:23:29.339 --> 00:23:31.200 we've all got to stay alive and they're handing around sandwiches 502 00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.400 and chicken legs, you know. 503 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:34.740 It's, it's like, it's like Beckett. 504 00:23:34.799 --> 00:23:36.119 It's theatre of the absurd. 505 00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:37.440 It's the dumb waiter. 506 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:40.619 In fact, that is one of my absolute favourite things about the 507 00:23:40.619 --> 00:23:41.039 story. 508 00:23:41.099 --> 00:23:46.019 So the banquet scene with Birok. isn't really in the past because 509 00:23:46.019 --> 00:23:50.640 the doctor and Birok are having a conversation about what it was 510 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:51.299 like then. 511 00:23:51.359 --> 00:23:54.720 It's not, it's not, they haven't been transported back into the 512 00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:54.960 past. 513 00:23:55.019 --> 00:24:00.059 It's like some kind of representation of what happened. 514 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.700 And the doctor in Birok aren't really involved in it because 515 00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.740 they're commenting on it as it happens. 516 00:24:04.799 --> 00:24:08.519 And then the Gundans rush in with their incredible music. 517 00:24:08.579 --> 00:24:12.240 And then suddenly we flick to the present day and it's a different 518 00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:12.839 banquet. 519 00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:14.400 You know, the gunman's coming. 520 00:24:14.460 --> 00:24:17.579 They smash the axe into the table and suddenly the axe is covered 521 00:24:17.579 --> 00:24:18.119 in cobwebs. 522 00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:23.099 The thing is, though, if the doctor and Birok aren't really there 523 00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:25.859 who knocked over the goblet that the doctor picks up? 524 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:27.420 It's so clever, isn't it? 525 00:24:27.480 --> 00:24:29.400 They are really there, but it's not a real thing. 526 00:24:29.460 --> 00:24:33.000 There's some strange time thing happening, but that's right. 527 00:24:33.059 --> 00:24:36.420 When the doctor 1st goes into that room, he picks a goblin up 528 00:24:36.420 --> 00:24:40.140 that's been knocked over on the table and then later in episode 529 00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:41.160 three. 530 00:24:41.220 --> 00:24:43.319 He knocks the goblet over. 531 00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:48.299 But that cliffhanger is so tremendous where, you know, suddenly 532 00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:50.279 he's surrounded by Rawik. 533 00:24:50.339 --> 00:24:52.980 We don't see them travel through time or anything. 534 00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:53.940 They're just there. 535 00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:58.740 And it's the axe just suddenly covered with cobwebs that shows 536 00:24:58.740 --> 00:24:59.700 that time has passed. 537 00:24:59.759 --> 00:25:03.720 And I agree, you can't tell what's happening or what's the state 538 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:04.920 of any of this is. 539 00:25:04.980 --> 00:25:07.680 But aesthetically, it's so great. 540 00:25:08.220 --> 00:25:10.200 I agree with you. 541 00:25:10.259 --> 00:25:11.339 Aesthetically, it is so great. 542 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.099 I've got my hands in my head, everyone. 543 00:25:14.160 --> 00:25:17.460 The boys are having this conversation and it is that aspect of the 544 00:25:17.460 --> 00:25:21.059 story that does my head in because I still don't understand how 545 00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:24.180 they can be in that one place and then suddenly, just because an 546 00:25:24.180 --> 00:25:27.359 axe goes into a table, they're suddenly magically transported back 547 00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.700 into where everybody else is, I just don't understand. 548 00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.480 No, and it's not explained, presumably it's something Birok does 549 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:37.200 but, you know, like it's such a great visual and such a terrific 550 00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:39.119 clute hanger, but I don't care. 551 00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:40.440 But I do. 552 00:25:40.440 --> 00:25:45.119 So it's sort of like, you know, great Pepe, what? 553 00:25:45.180 --> 00:25:46.200 You know? 554 00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:49.799 But also, like, what's the nature of that world? 555 00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:52.380 Like it's clearly black and white photographs for budgetary 556 00:25:52.380 --> 00:25:55.259 reasons, I think, because we're just shooting in the studio and 557 00:25:55.259 --> 00:25:56.339 there's no location stuff. 558 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.980 Well, Paul Joyce took those photographs themselves. 559 00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:02.339 He went to that country house with his some girlfriend at the time 560 00:26:02.339 --> 00:26:03.240 and took these photos. 561 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:08.099 I believe what his intent was because, if you like, it was a 562 00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:08.579 replay. 563 00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:10.740 It wasn't the original time, so it lacked. 564 00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:13.019 It lacked some of the original detail. 565 00:26:13.079 --> 00:26:16.380 It doesn't explain why Romana, when Romana goes through at the 566 00:26:16.380 --> 00:26:16.559 end. 567 00:26:16.619 --> 00:26:18.000 It's still black and white, but there you are. 568 00:26:19.440 --> 00:26:23.579 I'd like to talk about Paul Joyce a bit because he is fascinating 569 00:26:23.579 --> 00:26:27.480 and I would actually love to have him in the new series as a 570 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:27.779 director. 571 00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:31.259 You know, he's trying a lot of different shots. 572 00:26:31.380 --> 00:26:36.000 You talked about like the original shots that we 1st see, which 573 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.339 are a take on alien, you were saying. 574 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:41.519 And I sit there going, what is this? 575 00:26:41.579 --> 00:26:42.900 Why have we got these shots? 576 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:43.799 I mean this is just me. 577 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:48.720 We've got the coin toss where it's heavily pixelated, which I 578 00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.519 think, you know, they're trying something different, but it 579 00:26:50.519 --> 00:26:52.319 doesn't quite work, doesn't quite work. 580 00:26:52.380 --> 00:26:54.180 Graham Harper responsible for some of that stuff. 581 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:59.819 That was Paul Joyce, and the head of cereals tried to have the 582 00:26:59.819 --> 00:27:01.200 shot removed from the episode. 583 00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:02.400 He was so displeased with it. 584 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:05.339 Joyce put his foot down and sort of said, no, you're not. 585 00:27:05.460 --> 00:27:09.359 And I believe because John Nathan Turner gave the head of serials 586 00:27:09.359 --> 00:27:11.700 his assurance that Paul Joyce would never be hired on the program 587 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:13.440 again. 588 00:27:13.500 --> 00:27:14.940 But Joyce is actually fired. 589 00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:16.019 Yes. 590 00:27:16.019 --> 00:27:20.160 And, and, it was like a weekend or something or a few days of 591 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:20.579 shooting. 592 00:27:20.579 --> 00:27:23.700 And in the Doco, he says he knew that they'd come back to him 593 00:27:23.700 --> 00:27:26.279 because he was the only one who had the whole picture in his head 594 00:27:26.279 --> 00:27:26.880 of how to shoot it. 595 00:27:26.940 --> 00:27:28.440 I have heard that version. 596 00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:30.059 I've also had the version where it was ours. 597 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:31.680 It was literally ours. 598 00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.839 He was fired during a camera rehearsal. 599 00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.859 Because the crew were getting frustrated with him. 600 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.799 And especially that shot at the beginning, that tracking shot 601 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:42.779 where you can see the lights. 602 00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:47.160 The lighting director threw a fit and the writing director, every 603 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:52.019 studio session wrote letters to the head of cereals, talking about 604 00:27:52.019 --> 00:27:55.079 what an ass Paul Gallagher was. 605 00:27:55.140 --> 00:27:56.759 Sorry, Paul Joyce was. 606 00:27:56.819 --> 00:28:00.359 So he was fired during a rehearsal and he just kind of went, okay. 607 00:28:00.420 --> 00:28:01.559 Fair enough. 608 00:28:01.619 --> 00:28:03.240 He went to the BBC bar. 609 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:06.960 John Nathan Turner stepped in and said, I'm going to direct this. 610 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:11.700 A few hours later in the BBC bar and John Nathan Turner comes in 611 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:14.579 and says, Okay, Paul, I think we need to find a way to make this 612 00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:14.880 work. 613 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:19.140 And it was because the way Paul Joseph wrote his camera scripts 614 00:28:19.140 --> 00:28:21.240 only he could decipher them. 615 00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:22.319 Clever man. 616 00:28:22.380 --> 00:28:23.700 Clever man. 617 00:28:23.759 --> 00:28:27.839 But, yeah, he's got these wonderful influences. 618 00:28:27.900 --> 00:28:33.180 He's got films like Orphe by Jean-Cocteau, which is where the 619 00:28:33.180 --> 00:28:34.619 imagery with the mirror comes from. 620 00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:37.859 Those opening tracking shots as well as being inspired by Alien 621 00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:42.960 were inspired by roots. which is, of course, the series about the 622 00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.279 slaves being brought over to America, featuring LeVar Burton in 623 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.619 one of his one of his earlier starring roles. 624 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.759 And so Paul Joyce looked for, as well as visual similarities. 625 00:28:53.819 --> 00:28:55.740 He looked for thematic similarities. 626 00:28:55.799 --> 00:29:00.059 There's a 1940s film called Kiss Me Deadly, which inspired a lot 627 00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:00.539 of his shots. 628 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:01.859 Now it's not a science fiction film. 629 00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.400 But for instance, that shot at the end where Rawvik is standing 630 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:06.119 over the doctor. 631 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:11.039 That is a lift from Kiss Me Deadly, where you only, until the end 632 00:29:11.039 --> 00:29:14.039 you only saw the villains, usually, you saw their legs and you saw 633 00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:17.220 people through their legs, you know, to imply that they can always 634 00:29:17.220 --> 00:29:17.640 get away. 635 00:29:17.700 --> 00:29:22.079 Won't Richard be really angry at us if we don't mention La Belle? 636 00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:26.039 Oh, la belle. also by our Jean-Cocteau. 637 00:29:26.099 --> 00:29:26.700 I believe. 638 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.900 Yeah, that was a huge inspiration, not only for the banquet hall 639 00:29:30.900 --> 00:29:31.740 and the banquet scene. 640 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.500 With the look of the Farrells as well. 641 00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:38.220 The look of the Pharrells who started out, I think, as the thonks 642 00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:42.000 and then became the fowls until a very late stage where someone 643 00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:45.839 realised they were already thaws, and finally became the 644 00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:46.559 Pharrells. 645 00:29:46.619 --> 00:29:50.759 And to add to the realism, the orange suits that the crew wears 646 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:54.720 are the same suits NASA technicians wear. 647 00:29:54.779 --> 00:29:55.319 Right. 648 00:29:55.319 --> 00:29:58.500 But Rawvik's uniform was designed from scratch. 649 00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:02.819 June Hudson designed a beautiful costume for Lala Ward, pretty 650 00:30:02.819 --> 00:30:07.859 much a Rococo style outfit because June Hudson and Lala Ward's 651 00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:11.460 interpretation of Romana, as we've seen quite often, is male 652 00:30:11.460 --> 00:30:13.440 clothes suited to the female form. 653 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:16.619 So she was going to be in this Rococo outfit. 654 00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:19.380 For those of you who don't know what a rococo outfit is, the 655 00:30:19.380 --> 00:30:23.339 clockwise soldiers in the girl in the fireplace, David Tenant 656 00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:23.579 story. 657 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:27.480 Now, the only problem with June Hudson's costume is that 658 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:28.500 everything was in green. 659 00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:29.400 Nice. 660 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:34.140 So she would have just vanished into the white. 661 00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:40.980 So the top she eventually wore was actually inspired by a top that 662 00:30:40.980 --> 00:30:42.359 was a favourite of Paul Joyce's wife. 663 00:30:42.480 --> 00:30:45.359 So I think there must have been some visual similarity because I 664 00:30:45.359 --> 00:30:47.640 think when that happened, Paul Joyce said, you know what, I think 665 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:49.680 I've got an idea of something Lala would look lovely in. 666 00:30:49.740 --> 00:30:52.319 And she, you know, she does look all floaty and ethereal as she 667 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.200 wanders about and she gets that wonderful scene very early on with 668 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:56.220 the privateer crew. 669 00:30:56.279 --> 00:30:58.619 Do you know, I don't like her in that scene. 670 00:30:58.680 --> 00:30:59.039 No? 671 00:30:59.099 --> 00:30:59.759 Which scene is it? 672 00:30:59.819 --> 00:31:02.819 So it's the one where she comes out and she's being all mysterious 673 00:31:02.819 --> 00:31:03.599 and the doctor. 674 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:08.460 She's, you know, one of that silly thing where she, this is the 675 00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:12.180 signal I'm going to give you, like, to the doctor, which I just 676 00:31:12.180 --> 00:31:13.980 think is so stupid. 677 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:15.359 No, I It doesn't work. 678 00:31:15.420 --> 00:31:16.740 No, I don't think it quite works. 679 00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:20.640 And I think she needs to be being more like Tom, because part of 680 00:31:20.640 --> 00:31:26.039 this is that she leaves the doctor at the end to become the doctor 681 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:27.960 where she'll have a tarnish. 682 00:31:28.019 --> 00:31:30.779 She'll be travelling with canine and she'll be going from planet 683 00:31:30.779 --> 00:31:33.539 to planet, freeing slaves. 684 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:38.579 So she's doing the doctor, but in a smaller universe, you know, so 685 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:40.440 she's a sort of 2nd rate doctor. 686 00:31:40.500 --> 00:31:42.660 And so she comes out of the TARDIS. 687 00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.059 She tells her companion to stay inside. 688 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:52.380 She's all zanian kind of mysterious and annoying like Tom. 689 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:55.259 But she doesn't quite get it right. 690 00:31:55.319 --> 00:31:59.279 And I think her normal thing where she's a little happier and a 691 00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:03.720 little bit more sort of lip and smiley would have worked better. 692 00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:06.539 And the other thing I don't like about that scene is that she's 693 00:32:06.539 --> 00:32:09.420 punished for being the doctor because she's immediately captured 694 00:32:09.420 --> 00:32:10.380 and strapped to a chair. 695 00:32:10.440 --> 00:32:12.779 So I think that's a bit unfortunate. 696 00:32:12.839 --> 00:32:13.920 But she can scream. 697 00:32:13.980 --> 00:32:16.859 I'll give her points on that over Mary Tam. 698 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.519 Yeah, yeah. 699 00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:21.359 She does a great scream at the end of episode 2 or which... 700 00:32:21.420 --> 00:32:22.500 Yeah. 701 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.920 But it always concerns me when a companion starts talking about 702 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:28.440 very early on in the story, you know, what if the doctor and I 703 00:32:28.440 --> 00:32:31.920 went different ways or there's just a line there. heightened sort 704 00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:33.660 of spidey senses start to blink. 705 00:32:33.779 --> 00:32:37.079 No, no, no, this could be the end of end of the companion. 706 00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:39.599 And the canine thing where he can't come back through the mirror. 707 00:32:39.660 --> 00:32:40.319 Yeah, yeah. 708 00:32:40.380 --> 00:32:42.539 Can we talk about her departure? 709 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:43.019 Yeah. 710 00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:45.720 Obviously, it was, you know, canine and her departure was 711 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:46.619 publicised quite a lot. 712 00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:50.099 This is the 1st story of the season not going up against Buck 713 00:32:50.099 --> 00:32:50.519 Rogers. 714 00:32:50.579 --> 00:32:55.740 And so suddenly the ratings are above 7000000 for the 1st time. 715 00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.880 The only story of the season to have one episode above 8 million. 716 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:00.299 Right. 717 00:33:00.299 --> 00:33:04.920 And 2 of the 3 episodes that place in the top 70 are in this 718 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:05.460 story. 719 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:10.140 So, you know, it's taken us 20 episodes to get half decent 720 00:33:10.140 --> 00:33:10.559 rating. 721 00:33:10.619 --> 00:33:13.319 Her departure in episode four. 722 00:33:13.380 --> 00:33:15.539 I just think is so rushed. 723 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:16.380 Yeah. 724 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:18.180 And I really hate Tom's. 725 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:20.700 I've always hated Tom's line. 726 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:22.259 You were the noblest Romana of them all. 727 00:33:22.319 --> 00:33:25.619 For me, Mary Tam was like this... 728 00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.519 No, it's a quote. 729 00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:29.519 It's a quote from Julius Caesar. 730 00:33:29.579 --> 00:33:33.839 Well, okay, can I just finish and say, I really hate the line, and 731 00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:37.319 I just think it applies to Mary Tam more than it does to Lala 732 00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:42.420 Wood's incarnation, and was it an ad lib or was it scripted? 733 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.420 I think it was scripted because the look on Tom's face, his heart 734 00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:46.259 isn't in that line. 735 00:33:46.319 --> 00:33:48.720 You know, they were probably fighting that day. 736 00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:49.619 Yeah, yeah. 737 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:50.160 I don't know. 738 00:33:50.220 --> 00:33:52.380 I still don't, I still dislike the line. 739 00:33:52.440 --> 00:33:56.160 Yeah, because it can be read because we've had 2 Romanas. 740 00:33:56.220 --> 00:34:01.019 It can be read as talking to Lala rather than talking to Romana. 741 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:01.500 Yes. 742 00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:06.359 But Brutus is the final speech of Julius Caesar, I think, where 743 00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:10.920 Octavian comes in and talks about Brutus and says he was the 744 00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:12.059 noblest Roman of them all. 745 00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:15.900 As I say, that line is that line is clunky. 746 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.300 The actual lines they have leading up to the departure. 747 00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:21.000 I don't think the script is at fault. 748 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.360 I feel like the filming of that scene was rushed. 749 00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:29.400 There's, they sort of just say the lines at each other and then 750 00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:30.119 and then it's gone. 751 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:32.639 But the lines themselves are very nice, like, just, I'm not coming 752 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:32.940 with you. 753 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:35.099 No more orders, you know. 754 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:38.039 I really like Lala's delivery there. 755 00:34:38.099 --> 00:34:38.940 Yeah, yeah. 756 00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:41.340 Like, because she's relieved in a way. 757 00:34:41.400 --> 00:34:42.119 She's happy. 758 00:34:42.420 --> 00:34:43.980 Yeah, yeah. 759 00:34:43.980 --> 00:34:45.420 It's not a sad departure. 760 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:46.019 No. 761 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:49.860 And those two, like you can't do a sentimental departure. 762 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:54.179 You can't do David Tennant and Billy Parker on different sides of 763 00:34:54.179 --> 00:34:54.840 the universe. 764 00:34:54.900 --> 00:34:56.639 I mean, they're going to different universes. 765 00:34:56.699 --> 00:35:00.659 You just can't do that with Tom because, you know, of what Tom's 766 00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:00.900 like. 767 00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:07.199 And the 2 of them are kind of grown ups and it's not, you know 768 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:09.239 it's never, ever going to be soppy with them. 769 00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:13.559 And so I quite like, you know, there's a lot of noise in the 770 00:35:13.559 --> 00:35:16.440 background, they're leaving in the middle of a kind of giant 771 00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:17.579 emergency and stuff. 772 00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:20.039 And so it is really rushed. 773 00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:22.619 And then you do get that tag scene at the end. 774 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.900 Tom's not in it, but the TARDIS is there and Romana won as if he's 775 00:35:27.900 --> 00:35:29.519 going to be okay. 776 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.880 Well, we then do get a bit from Tom with Adric saying, will Romana 777 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.980 be all right, and the doctor says she'll be superb. 778 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:37.019 And Tom is brilliant in that moment. 779 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:40.739 And you can tell he's the doctor talking about Romana and his Tom 780 00:35:40.739 --> 00:35:43.860 Baker talking about... you know that moment is great. 781 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:49.019 I think very early on that foreshadowing you referred to, Todd 782 00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:51.119 when she says, what if we go our separate ways? 783 00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:54.539 That's one of Matthew Waterhouse's best moments to date. 784 00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:58.500 You know, he only has a few words, but he genuinely conveys the 785 00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:02.039 fear that this new family he's found with his own family dead is 786 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:02.579 breaking apart. 787 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:05.579 And it doesn't, it doesn't carry through the story because Adrik 788 00:36:05.579 --> 00:36:08.039 is, Adrik is very underused in this story. 789 00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:10.980 You know, he disappears for vast ways of the plot. 790 00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:13.980 I think that when we last see him in episode 3 and when we 1st see 791 00:36:13.980 --> 00:36:17.579 him in episode two, he's missing for about 20 minutes until he 792 00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:20.280 turns up on the laser and has that wonderful line of, I don't know 793 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.199 what these buttons do, but it's pointing in your direction. 794 00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:25.320 It's so badly delivered that line, isn't it? 795 00:36:25.380 --> 00:36:27.539 He's really not very good, poor Matthew. 796 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:30.539 This story is not a showcase for him at all. 797 00:36:30.599 --> 00:36:33.900 Like that walking around, keeping on tossing the coin where he's 798 00:36:33.900 --> 00:36:35.099 quite awkward. 799 00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:37.199 He shouts at Kana outside. 800 00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:39.719 I don't know, shouts at Kane, I've got notes here, people. 801 00:36:39.780 --> 00:36:43.440 Shouts, Patrick shouts at canine outside hell, dash, pathetic. 802 00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:46.199 Right, so there's obviously something that I just kind of went 803 00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:48.300 it's that bit where he's going, quiet. 804 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:49.980 Oh, dear Lord. 805 00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:50.940 And then I've got part four. 806 00:36:51.000 --> 00:36:51.659 Where is Hendrick? 807 00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:52.199 Where is he? 808 00:36:52.260 --> 00:36:52.860 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 809 00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:54.900 And then there's that continuity thing where he's got canine's 810 00:36:54.900 --> 00:36:55.139 ear. 811 00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:57.360 Yeah, and then the ears are back. 812 00:36:57.420 --> 00:36:58.260 And he is back. 813 00:36:58.380 --> 00:37:01.860 It's like, yeah, it's not this is not his finest album. 814 00:37:01.920 --> 00:37:05.039 There's that bit where they're hiding under the blanket and Romana 815 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:06.659 says to him, follow them. 816 00:37:06.719 --> 00:37:07.800 Follow, follow. 817 00:37:07.860 --> 00:37:11.099 It's because it's because Matthew missed his queue. 818 00:37:11.159 --> 00:37:12.719 Like he was meant to go on the 1st follow. 819 00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:16.619 But Lala knew how behind they were in terms of filming. 820 00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:20.340 They had various overruns, the longest of which was half an hour. 821 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:23.400 They had a half hour overrun on the 1st day of filming. 822 00:37:24.000 --> 00:37:27.420 I think actually, I think that's why Paul Joyce was initially 823 00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:27.780 fired. 824 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:32.400 Yeah, but Lala stays in character, so they don't have to retake 825 00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:32.880 the scene. 826 00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:36.719 In preparation for these podcasts, I watch DVDs with the info text 827 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:38.340 on the bottom. 828 00:37:38.820 --> 00:37:40.800 Which is, yeah, it's very informative. 829 00:37:40.860 --> 00:37:45.300 But that wonderful bit where the doctor's going to confront Royal 830 00:37:45.300 --> 00:37:48.960 Vic and says to Romana, it's it's time you obey orders. 831 00:37:49.019 --> 00:37:50.159 It's long past time. 832 00:37:50.219 --> 00:37:53.760 You don't know where it is, but Adrik then says, well, I'm coming 833 00:37:53.760 --> 00:37:57.000 too, and Romana gives him the same spiel as the doctor. 834 00:37:57.059 --> 00:37:59.760 The caption that comes up on the screwed at that moment is, can 835 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.280 you tell that Lala Ward and Matthew Waterhouse didn't really get 836 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:02.579 on? 837 00:38:05.099 --> 00:38:09.420 I, I, you know, I have no confirmation of this, but I believe that 838 00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:13.320 they, I believe that Lala still doesn't rate Matthew very highly 839 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:13.679 possibly. 840 00:38:13.739 --> 00:38:19.920 Well, he's, um, he is fairly frank about how he felt she treated 841 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.619 him in his autobiography. 842 00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:23.159 Yeah. 843 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:25.800 Which is available in all good bookstores. 844 00:38:25.860 --> 00:38:26.579 It's actually pretty good. 845 00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:27.659 It's a great read. 846 00:38:27.719 --> 00:38:30.059 And some pretty terrible bookstores as well, let's Big Frank. 847 00:38:30.119 --> 00:38:31.980 You know, that's not an indication of the book. 848 00:38:32.039 --> 00:38:38.400 The other part I really love about the ending is Romana's last 849 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:40.980 line, like, and we're going to help free them. 850 00:38:41.039 --> 00:38:42.360 I think it's something we should do. 851 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.820 Wittingly, possibly unwittingly. 852 00:38:44.880 --> 00:38:47.579 You know, 3 years ago we had Graham Williams start and he was 853 00:38:47.579 --> 00:38:50.940 appalled that the doctor had this, had a lack of any 854 00:38:50.940 --> 00:38:52.860 responsibility and wasn't answerable to anyone. 855 00:38:53.579 --> 00:38:57.599 The character that Graham Williams introduces as his ideal 856 00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:01.619 companion character to start having a moral compass ends up 857 00:39:01.619 --> 00:39:02.940 having... 858 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:08.340 Probably the greatest moral compass of a leading companion, maybe 859 00:39:08.340 --> 00:39:13.980 equal with Joe Grant, of I'm leaving explicitly to devote my life 860 00:39:13.980 --> 00:39:17.880 to helping other people because that's what the doctor does. 861 00:39:17.940 --> 00:39:20.460 And I think maybe that's the response to Graham Williams. 862 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:25.139 The doctor is such a great character and thus Romana becomes such 863 00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:28.739 a great character, not because he has a responsibility or a duty 864 00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:31.199 to help people, but because he does it anyway. 865 00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:31.860 Yeah. 866 00:39:31.860 --> 00:39:36.599 And that's how Romano leaves as well because Rod and I had a long 867 00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:38.940 discussion about this departure because he hates it. 868 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.980 He hates how perfunctory it is. 869 00:39:41.039 --> 00:39:45.059 He hates that free not that she's going off to free slaves, but 870 00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:47.039 she's going to have a horrible life and this, that, the other. 871 00:39:47.099 --> 00:39:49.679 Like, he really hates companion departures where they're killed or 872 00:39:49.679 --> 00:39:50.579 they have a horrible life. 873 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:52.679 You know, he's like, your life should be made better by the 874 00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:52.980 doctor. 875 00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:55.199 But I'm saying, well, no, her life is made better, but that 876 00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:56.219 doesn't mean it's easy. 877 00:39:56.280 --> 00:39:58.199 Yeah, no, she goes off to be the doctor. 878 00:39:58.260 --> 00:40:00.300 Yeah, they're going to build the TARDIS. 879 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:03.420 They're going to travel around e-space fighting oppression. 880 00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:04.920 It's exactly what the doctor does. 881 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:06.599 She's going to be the doctor. 882 00:40:06.719 --> 00:40:08.940 She's going to be superb. 883 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:10.199 She is superb. 884 00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:13.920 I get, you know, on another slightly different hack, you know, the 885 00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.219 links to the 70s are now, you know, disappearing. 886 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:20.219 K9's been in the show for almost 4 years, Romana for three. 887 00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:23.579 You know, this is point, this is where the 80s are really, you 888 00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:25.920 know, if we didn't know that we were in the 80s, We are now going 889 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:26.219 to be. 890 00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.400 Well, and truly, the 70s are long gone. 891 00:40:29.460 --> 00:40:33.000 And in fact, it's Xander for whom I haven't quoted for a long time 892 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:34.139 so here goes. 893 00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:39.239 He says that the way that the regeneration is handled is that 894 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:44.519 Tom's show is just gradually dismantled around him, and Davison's 895 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.460 show is introduced before Davison comes in. 896 00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:51.599 And so, you know, that's what's going to happen over the next few 897 00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:53.820 stories, well, the next two. 898 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.519 You know, by the time Tom leaves, the program is just not 899 00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:57.900 recognisably his. 900 00:40:57.960 --> 00:40:59.880 And this is the biggest shakeup. 901 00:40:59.940 --> 00:41:02.519 I think we've had in a season for a very, very long time. 902 00:41:02.579 --> 00:41:06.780 Yeah, the only comparable one I can think of is where we start 903 00:41:06.780 --> 00:41:12.780 season 4 with the 1st Dr. Ben and Polly and end it with the 2nd Dr 904 00:41:12.780 --> 00:41:13.860 Jamie and Victoria. 905 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:20.099 You know, and the format, the stars, the companions, the producers 906 00:41:20.099 --> 00:41:24.179 the script editor, all change in the course of 9 stories. 907 00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:24.780 Yeah. 908 00:41:24.780 --> 00:41:27.480 And, you know, we have a similar thinking over the course of 909 00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:27.780 seven. 910 00:41:27.840 --> 00:41:31.380 But there's much more creative unity here, obviously. 911 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:32.940 It is a very deliberate thing. 912 00:41:33.000 --> 00:41:37.079 Like it's retooling the program deliberately, whereas season 4 is 913 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:38.639 what the hell are we doing? 914 00:41:40.139 --> 00:41:46.199 Apparently, it was also around the time of rehearsals for this 915 00:41:46.199 --> 00:41:48.179 that Tom decided he was going to leave. 916 00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:54.539 It's part of the reason that because very often when the show got 917 00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:57.179 into the studio and there might be a moment of the script that 918 00:41:57.179 --> 00:41:57.599 doesn't work. 919 00:41:57.659 --> 00:42:00.300 So, for instance, there was meant to be a comedic moment in here 920 00:42:00.300 --> 00:42:07.079 which Barry lets it let through of Royce or Aldo behind Packard's 921 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:11.039 console repairing it and sort of popping their head up and having 922 00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:12.119 a chat with Packard. 923 00:42:12.179 --> 00:42:13.980 But whenever Rawvik turned around. 924 00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:16.559 They'd be behind the console, so they thought Packard was talking 925 00:42:16.559 --> 00:42:16.980 to himself. 926 00:42:17.460 --> 00:42:22.619 But yeah, then Packard's console is up against a rail on the upper 927 00:42:22.619 --> 00:42:23.579 floor and they couldn't do it. 928 00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:27.360 Now, normally that scene would have been reworked, but Bidmead was 929 00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:30.119 off writing Legopolis because suddenly Tom was leaving. 930 00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:31.619 Ah. 931 00:42:31.619 --> 00:42:35.099 Final word about scripting on this, this wasn't the original story 932 00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:35.820 for this slot. 933 00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:39.539 It was originally a story called Sealed Orders. 934 00:42:39.659 --> 00:42:41.039 By Christopher Priest. 935 00:42:41.099 --> 00:42:44.460 By Christopher Priest, who would later pitch stories for next 936 00:42:44.460 --> 00:42:46.019 seasons, also unsuccessful. 937 00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:49.800 But the premise was going to be... 938 00:42:49.800 --> 00:42:54.300 Multiple times as a multiple doctors are rising after the TARDIS 939 00:42:54.300 --> 00:42:55.440 lands inside itself. 940 00:42:55.500 --> 00:43:00.719 And the storyline, and I think some of the scripts were delivered 941 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:04.380 but it was deemed to be unworkable for television, i.e. we can't 942 00:43:04.380 --> 00:43:05.760 afford this on Doctor Who's budget. 943 00:43:05.820 --> 00:43:10.079 But, yeah, obviously, bid me like the idea of tartuses inside 944 00:43:10.079 --> 00:43:10.800 tartuses. 945 00:43:11.219 --> 00:43:13.679 Do we in a fortnight? 946 00:43:13.739 --> 00:43:14.159 Yes. 947 00:43:14.219 --> 00:43:18.719 Before we go, do we think that this script is appropriate for 948 00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:20.099 Doctor Who on television at this time? 949 00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:21.300 Yes. 950 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:22.679 Yeah, I do. 951 00:43:22.739 --> 00:43:27.179 I think that what's happening is after the show being in a bit of 952 00:43:27.179 --> 00:43:27.719 a rut. 953 00:43:27.840 --> 00:43:33.659 Um, you get Bidmead coming along and showing us what it can do. 954 00:43:33.659 --> 00:43:40.199 And, uh, as I said, everything is scientists, uh, in the Bidmead 955 00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:40.679 era. 956 00:43:40.739 --> 00:43:42.900 And I like that this is a break from that. 957 00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:47.760 I like that it does magic in a way that those odd ball stories 958 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:52.980 like the mind robber or the celestial toy maker do, but that it 959 00:43:52.980 --> 00:43:58.380 does it in that sort of mid-median sort of science, alchemy 960 00:43:58.380 --> 00:44:00.239 context. 961 00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:04.860 Um, it's variety, you know, I think this season is really, really 962 00:44:04.860 --> 00:44:07.079 strong because it does a lot of different things. 963 00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:09.719 Within its thematic structure. 964 00:44:09.780 --> 00:44:12.480 Yeah, yeah. where it's still all about entropy, it's still all 965 00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.179 about science and superstition. 966 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:21.300 You know, I think it's a really strong season and I like this 967 00:44:21.300 --> 00:44:22.260 story as part of it. 968 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:26.820 Before we finish up, I'd just like to relay something from Paul 969 00:44:26.820 --> 00:44:27.900 Joyce, the director. 970 00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.119 Now, I mentioned earlier that the lighting director, lighting 971 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:33.300 engineer, uh, would write letters having a go about him, and his 972 00:44:33.300 --> 00:44:36.840 main criticism of Paul Joyce is that Paul Joyce's methods would be 973 00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:40.559 better suited to working on film than the environment of 974 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:40.860 television. 975 00:44:41.039 --> 00:44:45.300 And apparently Paul pulled him up on that and said, well, Barry, I 976 00:44:45.300 --> 00:44:45.960 think you'll find. 977 00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:50.760 That television will start moving more towards film. 978 00:44:50.820 --> 00:44:53.039 And maybe you'd like to come with me on that journey. 979 00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:13.800 Well, sadly, and without any mention of Sagan's death face, we 980 00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:15.840 come to the end of Warrior's Gate. 981 00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:19.739 We'll be back next week to discuss the Keeper of Truck, and until 982 00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:22.800 then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight 983 00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:26.039 through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on 984 00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:26.519 Twitter. 985 00:45:26.579 --> 00:45:30.300 Meanwhile, over on Bond Finger, we have an array of James Bond 986 00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:31.079 commentaries available. 987 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:34.739 Until next week, may none of your chains be made of dwarf star 988 00:45:34.739 --> 00:45:35.219 alloy. 989 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:36.300 Thank you very much and good night. 990 00:45:36.360 --> 00:45:37.079 Good night. 991 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:38.159 See you soon. 992 00:45:39.059 --> 00:45:42.780 I'm really sorry that I didn't mention that this is the first 993 00:45:42.780 --> 00:45:45.780 Doctor Who story with the apostrophe in the title. 994 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.739 That rule has flagged her entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley 995 00:45:55.739 --> 00:45:57.179 and Brendan Jones. 996 00:45:57.239 --> 00:46:01.260 This episode, petulant teenage moment, was recorded on the 20th of 997 00:46:01.260 --> 00:46:02.159 March, 2016. 998 00:46:02.340 --> 00:46:06.000 The next episode will be released on May 15th. 999 00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:10.380 Three days after this story, Romana negotiated $4 an hour 1000 00:46:10.380 --> 00:46:14.460 internships for all the Farrells, thus setting them free. 1001 00:46:20.519 --> 00:46:24.059 It's funny, you know, like, um, kill the moon. 1002 00:46:24.119 --> 00:46:27.000 Peter Harness was told to Henchcliff the size of it. 1003 00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:30.119 No one ever tells anyone to bid me cry out of it, do they? 1004 00:46:30.179 --> 00:46:32.639 I probably should, actually. 1005 00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:37.500 Well, they could say, do you want a JNT? 1006 00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:38.519 It could mean many things. 1007 00:46:38.579 --> 00:46:40.320 Do you know what wiles of something out of it? 1008 00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:44.460 Just massacre.