Hello, everybody, and welcome back.
To Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who is a
shadow of your past and of our future.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd.
And we are embarking on possibly the strangest, most ethereal, and
open to debate, Doctor Who story today, with Warrior's Gate.
It's not as strange as the Celestial Toy Maker, is it?
Yeah, but it's good and strange, rather than terrible and slightly
racist.
And I didn't even tend for that opening to rhyme, but, you know
it's just the astral Jung and holistic view of this entire story.
This is another one that I didn't sort of see as a kid.
I saw as a teenager, and getting ahead of ourselves a bit
Ghostlight is a story that a lot of people hold up and say, you
know, this is the most confusing and dense the Doctor Who ever
got.
And I watched this in Ghostlight around the same time as each
other for the 1st time around 1516.
Ghostfly, I understood 1st time through.
This, I had to watch it 4 times.
But even at the end of the 1st one, I'm like, I have no idea what
that was about, but God, I love it.
Very interesting because I just, as a kid, I never understood
this.
It was my least favourite story of the season and has been for 35
years, or how many years ago that it was made.
It was always my least favourite.
It's no longer my least favourite now.
The documentary, actually, on the DVD release is fantastic.
It really helped me to sort of piece together a lot of things in
my mind.
It's been several weeks since I've watched it.
So I've forgotten it all.
So that's great.
But back to what you're saying about Ghost Light.
I don't understand how people can say they don't get it.
I mean, the 1st time through, some of the audio you can't hear, but
when you watch it, everything to me logically makes sense, whereas
with this, I can still watch it now and go, I still don't
understand parts of this at all.
I don't either, and I don't think it's a problem.
And I think there are things that don't really make sense.
Not in a bad way.
I don't mean that as a criticism.
I mean, I think there are things, like, why is the world beyond
the gateway just black and white photo?
It's like, you know, there's all sorts of things.
And I think, I think this is unusual in this season in that, and
correct me if I'm wrong, every other story features scientists in
a major role, like every other story.
So you've got Harden, you've got the savants, you've got decks
that are, you've got Kalmar and those horrible flea bitten people
who are being oppressed by the Lords.
Their comedy beards, more of which next week.
You know, you've got tree mass, like you've got the monitor.
There's scientists.
There's no scientists in this.
And in fact, time isn't working by scientific principles at all in
this story.
And it really works on magical and poetical principles, I think.
Yeah, yeah, it does in a way.
And I think also we need to look at what's happening on the other
side at the moment, the other side, not of the mirror, but over on
ITV.
Who currently have the immensely popular sapphire and steel.
Is that immensely popular?
It is, it is, because Saffron still was commissioned as a
children's show.
If you watch the 1st Sapphire and Steel story.
It is explicitly for children.
The 2 main supporting cast in it, are children.
Yeah.
But it was so popular with adults that if you look at the 2nd
sapphire and steel story.
That's incredibly adult.
There's no children.
There's, you know, you can't exactly take lots of death, but it
deals with the idea of death a great deal.
That's the one in the railway station.
Yeah, so that was incredibly popular and it was being billed at
the time as, you know, this is ITV's answer to Doctor Who.
Now, of course, it didn't have the longevity, but it played with
the idea of time in ways that Doctor Who didn't tend to.
So, you know, if we think of classic Doctor Who, stories that play
with time have got, Dana Daleks.
We've got this one.
Maybe Space Museum.
Space Museum, Little. you know, in one episode.
And yeah, we get other stories where time is a factor like
Hinchcliffe's favourite of an evil from millennia ago.
Yeah.
But, well, that's one thing I really love about this story is its
relationship with time and exploring time through language.
Yeah.
But I'm not quite sure that it is as magical, as you say, Nathan.
I think possibly it's magical in the Arthur C.
Clark sense that sufficiently advanced technology is
indistinguishable from magic.
Except, I mean, think about it.
At the intersection between 2 universes, at the CVE.
And when the CVE is portrayed in full circle, is it the beginning
of full circle?
It's like a sort of video effect and it's got a technical term.
It's a charged vacuum in boyment.
It's a space phenomenon and it makes the TARDIS go all wibbly and
things.
This time the gateway between the universes is a white void with a
Gothic door in it, which is able to sustain life.
Like, it's not a planet.
It's got a floor.
It's got like just whiteness, it has air, and for some reason it
exists and is shrinking.
Yeah.
So it is a magical realm like the, you know, the 1st episode of
the land of fiction. is, you know, the nearest analogue, which is
another just white studio.
And you can get through the magic mirrors if you've been touched
by the time winds, but the time winds affect organic matter
differently from inorganic matter, which is why the doctor can go
through, but canine can't go back.
You know, that's magical, the fact that, you know, the rules of
time affect life differently.
And the fact that the iching works, you know, like when we 1st the
1st thing that we get about time in this is the very opening where
Aldo and Royce, who are the 2 crew members on that ship, throw a
coin, and the coin stops at the very apex of the coin toss.
So time becomes about chance and outcomes and things.
It stops at the point where it's going to be decided whether it'll
be heads or tails.
And then the Iching, which is also about throwing coins, is
explicitly said to be a random sampling of events.
And so you can use the iching to foretell the future because the
tossing of coins is like a microcosm of, you know, the way that
things are moving sort of generally in the universe.
And that's a kind of magical principle, I think.
It is, it is.
And I think part of the problem with the story is, Well, in
general, The script was very troubled, and I'll go back to that in
a moment.
Something that isn't really made explicit in the dialogue is the
way that Farrells navigate time travel.
They look into the future, see all the possible things that can
happen, and pick the one they want.
So the way Birok navigates the ship, is he looks at all the
possible destinations the ship can go to, and chooses the one they
go to, and that's where they go, and that's why they need him as a
navigator, but that is, that's in Stephen Gallagher's original
script, but it isn't explicitly explained on screen.
It's really interesting.
Because when I was watching the documentary, his original script
is more like a novel.
And then I was astounded to find out that Bidmead and the director
Paul Joyce basically had a weekend in a house and Bidmead is
typing the script from his novel and Joyce is saying, well, I can
do that, I can do that, put that in and that sort of thing.
Right.
And Hall dress is saying, oh, yes, Bidmead and I wrote the script
based on that, and Bidmead is saying, well, I actually wrote the
script, and the director was in the house at the same time.
Slight difference of opinion, but it is the sort of thing that
Bidne routinely says.
Yes.
He does finish the documentary by saying, you know, it was a very
interesting story and, you know, I think Stephen has to take a
great deal of credit for that.
And I think Paul has to take a great deal of credit because he was
trying to do something the BBC had never seen.
And I think I should take a bit of credit as well.
And that's his life.
Do you, Chris?
There's no knowing smile or anything.
It's just like, no, no, I worked on this, yes.
I mean, I think Bidmead, you know, in a sense, Bidmead is right
because this whole season has this incredible thematic unity.
It's got Bid Mead written all over it. in Castra Valve, you get
something fairly similar in Frontios, you know, his 2 later
scripts.
Again, they're really bid meaty.
So you can tell that he's hugely responsible and he tells the
story that, you know, he only did one year because he had to
rewrite all of the scripts so heavily that it was just sort of too
much work.
And it's easy to believe.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, here he's having to rewrite it, you know, keeper of truck
and he has to insert the master because Johnny Byrne's gone on
holidays.
And he's writing the last script.
He's worked heavily on full circle.
He ripped all the humour out of the leisure hive, and he certainly
wrote the 1st episode of Megwos and left the rest of it to their
own devices.
And state of decay. did a rewrite, but half of that got chucked
out.
Right, right.
Yeah.
So he's actually done a lot.
It's really interesting that in all the docket, the documentaries
for this season on all the DVDs, never talk about, he never talks
about why he left the show.
Like in that opinion that you've just voiced, but I thought it was
that he wanted a pay rise and John Nathan Turner couldn't get one
or didn't bite hard enough for it.
I just, you know, it's one of those fan...
Yeah, well, myths, and, you know, the thing is, it's entirely
possible that he might have said, look, you know, I can't keep
up.
I love this job, but I can't keep up with the workload unless you
pay me more and John and John might have said, well, look, no, we
don't have the budget.
And Chris said, okay then.
You know, it's, it's, I suppose we're so used to 1980s Doctor Who
being this place where creatives leave the show really angry, as
we'll see in later seasons.
Perhaps we just don't hear that much about Chris because it was
just a business decision.
You know, we never really question why Anthony Reed left the show
where Douglas Adams left the show.
They kind of did their year or 18 months and then went, okay, that
was fun.
I'm off.
And certainly much like Anthony Rude.
Chris Bidme did come back and produce more screws.
On the science of how Birok chooses a destination, I think that's
why the magical elements work.
Birok looks into the future, right?
He chooses this potential future where the gateway can be
physically accessed with an atmosphere.
And he creates that future.
And because it's a closed system, like eSpace.
The laws of coincidence are different.
Yeah.
And it's great that you've said all that, but if you're watching
it and you don't understand that.
Like, I don't understand it.
It becomes very confusing and you just have to exert certain
things.
And I know that you're saying that you feel that it doesn't affect
your enjoyment of it.
It does affect mine, and I think that's one of the threads
throughout my entire time watching Doctor Who is that for me, in
my head, it has to make some sort of, I have to get an
explanation.
That's just me.
And so that's why for destroy, when bizarre things are happening
it's like, sometimes I think the direction's great and I like it
for that.
Other times I think the direction's not so good, or if I don't get
an explanation somewhere along the way that makes sense, I sort of
begin to turn off.
Yeah, that's entirely fair because this is another one that Rod
didn't like either.
He gave it 4 out of 10.
He really hated the ending, which we'll come back to later, but he
hated the lack of explanation as well.
And these ideas have actually been used far more successfully in 2
episodes of Star Trek, the Next Generation.
Which one?
Contagion, which is a season 2 episode, which deals with the
relics of a race called the Iconians, who have these gateways and
they used to plunder other worlds and rule other worlds with that
but they were all killed by an uprising.
Oh, is that the terrible one where... got Carolyn Seymour in it.
And the Enterprise's sistership explodes.
Yes, yeah, and Carolyn Seymour's a Romulan captain.
It's the 1st of her 2 turns as a Romulan captain.
Yes, that's right.
And but before Linda Thorson turns up as a Cardassian.
The other episode that I think is influenced a little.
Not quite as much.
But remember me.
I love Remember Me.
That's a Beverly Crusher one. where she's in a collapsing
universe.
And that has the wonderful exchange of computer.
What is the nature of the universe?
The universe is an oblate spheroid, 650 metres in diameter.
You know, and that's the same kind of, that's the same kind of
messing with your mind that you get with this story with the
collapsing and, oh, it's further going there than coming back.
And because we don't objectively see that as an audience.
Yeah.
Even though there's people talking about it all the time, it still
comes as a bit of a surprise to us.
I mean, it makes sense, and it sounds like a pretty bid-made kind
of idea that mass warps, space time, you know, um, and the, the
mass of the ship is, is, you know, enormous because it's made out
of dwarf star alloy.
And so that's why the thing collapses.
It collapses because of them.
You know, we haven't really talked much about the sheep or the
crew or anything like that.
Yeah, go on, Todd.
No, no, no.
I was just going to say, I like, I love that term dwarf star
alloy.
I love the fact that the space is contracting.
Like, that's all the stuff that I understand, and I know that
they've got to get out of there because it's going to, you know
everything's going to blow up.
And those elements that I hang on to when I'm watching this, for
me, to make, to make, make sense.
The crew are really interesting. having Royce and Aldo as sort of
like, you've got the bridge crew and you've got like them as more
the common man downstairs, but the fact is, they are slave traders
basically.
And so they're the comedy characters.
You know, they're kind of like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern, also
you know, Stefano and Trinculo or something like that.
Yeah, yeah.
Or Yaffet Koso's character in Alien.
You remember that?
There's there's two.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
This draws massively from Alien.
But, and they're funny and we laugh at them and, you know, people
mistake them for each other over the phone and stuff.
And then they kill a bunch of the slaves trying to revive them.
I know, it's horrific.
It's very, like, I kind of think it's very homesey in the fact
that you've got these 2 characters.
I mean, I feel I feel torn at the end that the whole crew die, you
know?
Like, like, did they all need to die?
Like, I mean, I don't know.
Like, I mean, it's a real There's a practical problem with leaving
someone alone.
Yes, yes, yes.
We're not having the same episode tied twice.
You know, it's like it's like Doctor Who magazine, having the
mutants twice.
In the original script. with Roy Sinaldo.
They were originally Aldo and Waldo, and they were going to look
visually similar, and that was the gag of no one being able to
tell them apart.
Barry Letts vetoed it.
He's like, no, when, you know, when not, it's too silly.
This is exactly the kind of thing we've been fighting against.
Instead, they go for the classic visual gag of one being very tall
and one being very short.
And they do have some great comedy bits, like, oh, oh, the string
in my legs gone, sir.
Or you push eye pull.
Yeah, yeah, you push my pull.
But also before Rawvik fires the MZ.
They have that whole thing about, oh, he's always done right by us
hasn't he?
And then they run off.
It was Stephen Gallagher's deliberate intent that you wouldn't see
them again after that.
So maybe those 2 survived somehow.
According to Stephen Gallagher, they're not on the ship at the
end.
They've run off into the void because they're just sick of all
this crap.
Right.
It's interesting.
I don't really like them in episode one.
I warm to them as we go through.
I also think Packard and Lane are really well played as well.
I think they're given enough to do and both of the actors give
sympathetic performances.
Yeah, we have the great Kenneth Cope.
Um, a.k.a. um, Hopkirk deceased. as, uh, Packard, yeah, yeah.
And he's described in the script as, you know, someone who's just
given up on any sort of fight.
You definitely get that impression with his character.
Like there's that great sort of petulant teenager that he does at
the beginning.
Like, a report from the helm.
That's you, remember?
And he just kind of shrokes me.
What do you want me to say?
Well, he has a bit of a tizzy.
It's it's that, you know, these aren't kind of space people like
the Merestrons from Planet of Evil.
You know, these are these are, and again, it's really heavily
ripped off alien, I think, where inalien, from which, you know
this story borrows its opening scene, where we're just crawling
around the ship.
In alien.
Everyone's sort of identifiable kind of working class people
they're eating Chinese food out of takeaway containers, they're
smoking.
You know, they're not space people.
They're not, you know, people from 2001 or that film with Michael
York.
What's that film with Michael York?
Logan's Run.
Logan's run.
You know, they're not they're not space people.
They're just sort of ordinary identifiable people.
And I think that's it here.
Rawvik's the boss, he's a bit of a dick.
Everyone's sick of him.
They're all kind of bored of their jobs.
They're like the morox, only, you know, with less eyebrows.
So they are identifiable.
They are kind of sympathetic for that reason.
Are they, are they from e-space?
Were they from M space?
No, they're from they're from end space.
And so they've come in to capture all of...
Yeah, you see, I'm not very clear about that either.
Yeah, it's not made terribly clear.
I think what it is, is the Farrells essentially used to live at 0
coordinates.
So they could plunder eSpace and end space, and what have you.
Yeah, I think they probably are from end space, end space, because
they're looking for a way out as well.
Yeah.
They've been stuck in e-space for months.
They haven't been stuck in 0 coordinates for months because when
they go outside, they're really surprised by the white void and
they haven't seen the gateway before.
They've been stuck in e-space as well.
Rawvik.
He's really interesting, I think, is a villain.
He's utterly humourless.
He does do that unfortunate laugh at the very end.
I'm finally getting things done.
Yeah.
He's gone, he's gone.
He's just gone completely insane now.
But he's utterly humanless.
Like Lane tries a joke at one and Rawvik just shuts him down.
He's got no sense of humour.
He's utterly boring and pedestrian and mundane, and that makes him
the villain.
And, you know, he's he's like this in a job where he's
transporting lots of slaves and he's prepared to risk the lives of
the slaves.
Uh, you know, in fact, let them all die, frankly.
They're all horrible people.
You know, they're bored with their jobs, but their jobs are
transporting slaves around the place.
But I think it's a really tough role to actually play because
sometimes he has to be reasonable at times and other times show
that he is completely humourous.
And initially it was a performance that I disliked for many years
but watching him again, I actually think he does a really good job
navigating the waters of this character to make him believable.
So I actually, again, initially, when I begin to watch it, having
not seen it for ages, it's sort of like, oh, you, but then as it
goes along, I'm thinking, no, you're doing a very good job.
It's the banality of evil thing, but he's just some guy. doing a
job and not thinking about the moral implications of it.
Yeah.
I think it's a big step up from his, you know, essentially, in
terms of function and in terms of mentality.
He's like the co-pilot, from the horns of Nimon.
Yeah, look at the difference, you know?
We get interiority with his character.
The scene I love him most in.
And, yeah, he does a horrible thing.
But the scene I love him most in is when he says, well, we'll just
revive all the Farrells and everyone just looks at him and he
shouts, let's do something for a change.
And you actually, you don't necessarily sympathise with this
character.
But you understand the desperation.
Whereas, The Doctor Romana are told to do nothing.
Yeah, yeah.
And in fact, that's the interesting thing.
The, the, the way time works on these sort of principles of
randomness and and the way it's cyclical.
So, you know, originally, the Farrells have slaves and the
oppressors, and then it switches around and they become slaves and
the oppressed, and then it switches back, they're freed and
they're going around.
And the way that's achieved is by doing nothing.
And it's Rawvik's determination to get something done that
actually gets them all killed.
The original title for the story was dream time.
It was only change to Warriors Gate when it was put into the e
space framework, because originally it was going to be a dream
world.
Right.
But then when it was put into the e-space framework, they were
given, you know, a science behind it rather than being the dream
world.
And Stephen Gallagher was inspired by what he'd read of the
Aboriginal Dream Time.
And a big part of the aboriginal dream time is things being
cyclical and things going in cycles and this has happened before
and this will happen again.
Birok has that wonderful line of the we enslaved themselves.
And as the doctor points out in episode four, you're not talking
about the human slaves you had, you're talking about yourself.
And that is something, I think, that might have been a bit more
relatable for children, because, of course, they would have
learned about the Roman Empire and they would have learned about
the Greeks and the ancient cultures, which did have slaves, but
ended up sinking into decadence. you know, which is what happens
to the Farrells.
And you've got the feral banquet scene being counterpointed with
Rawvik's men having their pickles.
And, you know, Rawvik trying to give this great rousing speech of
we've all got to stay alive and they're handing around sandwiches
and chicken legs, you know.
It's, it's like, it's like Beckett.
It's theatre of the absurd.
It's the dumb waiter.
In fact, that is one of my absolute favourite things about the
story.
So the banquet scene with Birok. isn't really in the past because
the doctor and Birok are having a conversation about what it was
like then.
It's not, it's not, they haven't been transported back into the
past.
It's like some kind of representation of what happened.
And the doctor in Birok aren't really involved in it because
they're commenting on it as it happens.
And then the Gundans rush in with their incredible music.
And then suddenly we flick to the present day and it's a different
banquet.
You know, the gunman's coming.
They smash the axe into the table and suddenly the axe is covered
in cobwebs.
The thing is, though, if the doctor and Birok aren't really there
who knocked over the goblet that the doctor picks up?
It's so clever, isn't it?
They are really there, but it's not a real thing.
There's some strange time thing happening, but that's right.
When the doctor 1st goes into that room, he picks a goblin up
that's been knocked over on the table and then later in episode
three.
He knocks the goblet over.
But that cliffhanger is so tremendous where, you know, suddenly
he's surrounded by Rawik.
We don't see them travel through time or anything.
They're just there.
And it's the axe just suddenly covered with cobwebs that shows
that time has passed.
And I agree, you can't tell what's happening or what's the state
of any of this is.
But aesthetically, it's so great.
I agree with you.
Aesthetically, it is so great.
I've got my hands in my head, everyone.
The boys are having this conversation and it is that aspect of the
story that does my head in because I still don't understand how
they can be in that one place and then suddenly, just because an
axe goes into a table, they're suddenly magically transported back
into where everybody else is, I just don't understand.
No, and it's not explained, presumably it's something Birok does
but, you know, like it's such a great visual and such a terrific
clute hanger, but I don't care.
But I do.
So it's sort of like, you know, great Pepe, what?
You know?
But also, like, what's the nature of that world?
Like it's clearly black and white photographs for budgetary
reasons, I think, because we're just shooting in the studio and
there's no location stuff.
Well, Paul Joyce took those photographs themselves.
He went to that country house with his some girlfriend at the time
and took these photos.
I believe what his intent was because, if you like, it was a
replay.
It wasn't the original time, so it lacked.
It lacked some of the original detail.
It doesn't explain why Romana, when Romana goes through at the
end.
It's still black and white, but there you are.
I'd like to talk about Paul Joyce a bit because he is fascinating
and I would actually love to have him in the new series as a
director.
You know, he's trying a lot of different shots.
You talked about like the original shots that we 1st see, which
are a take on alien, you were saying.
And I sit there going, what is this?
Why have we got these shots?
I mean this is just me.
We've got the coin toss where it's heavily pixelated, which I
think, you know, they're trying something different, but it
doesn't quite work, doesn't quite work.
Graham Harper responsible for some of that stuff.
That was Paul Joyce, and the head of cereals tried to have the
shot removed from the episode.
He was so displeased with it.
Joyce put his foot down and sort of said, no, you're not.
And I believe because John Nathan Turner gave the head of serials
his assurance that Paul Joyce would never be hired on the program
again.
But Joyce is actually fired.
Yes.
And, and, it was like a weekend or something or a few days of
shooting.
And in the Doco, he says he knew that they'd come back to him
because he was the only one who had the whole picture in his head
of how to shoot it.
I have heard that version.
I've also had the version where it was ours.
It was literally ours.
He was fired during a camera rehearsal.
Because the crew were getting frustrated with him.
And especially that shot at the beginning, that tracking shot
where you can see the lights.
The lighting director threw a fit and the writing director, every
studio session wrote letters to the head of cereals, talking about
what an ass Paul Gallagher was.
Sorry, Paul Joyce was.
So he was fired during a rehearsal and he just kind of went, okay.
Fair enough.
He went to the BBC bar.
John Nathan Turner stepped in and said, I'm going to direct this.
A few hours later in the BBC bar and John Nathan Turner comes in
and says, Okay, Paul, I think we need to find a way to make this
work.
And it was because the way Paul Joseph wrote his camera scripts
only he could decipher them.
Clever man.
But, yeah, he's got these wonderful influences.
He's got films like Orphe by Jean-Cocteau, which is where the
imagery with the mirror comes from.
Those opening tracking shots as well as being inspired by Alien
were inspired by roots. which is, of course, the series about the
slaves being brought over to America, featuring LeVar Burton in
one of his one of his earlier starring roles.
And so Paul Joyce looked for, as well as visual similarities.
He looked for thematic similarities.
There's a 1940s film called Kiss Me Deadly, which inspired a lot
of his shots.
Now it's not a science fiction film.
But for instance, that shot at the end where Rawvik is standing
over the doctor.
That is a lift from Kiss Me Deadly, where you only, until the end
you only saw the villains, usually, you saw their legs and you saw
people through their legs, you know, to imply that they can always
get away.
Won't Richard be really angry at us if we don't mention La Belle?
Oh, la belle. also by our Jean-Cocteau.
I believe.
Yeah, that was a huge inspiration, not only for the banquet hall
and the banquet scene.
With the look of the Farrells as well.
The look of the Pharrells who started out, I think, as the thonks
and then became the fowls until a very late stage where someone
realised they were already thaws, and finally became the
Pharrells.
And to add to the realism, the orange suits that the crew wears
are the same suits NASA technicians wear.
Right.
But Rawvik's uniform was designed from scratch.
June Hudson designed a beautiful costume for Lala Ward, pretty
much a Rococo style outfit because June Hudson and Lala Ward's
interpretation of Romana, as we've seen quite often, is male
clothes suited to the female form.
So she was going to be in this Rococo outfit.
For those of you who don't know what a rococo outfit is, the
clockwise soldiers in the girl in the fireplace, David Tenant
story.
Now, the only problem with June Hudson's costume is that
everything was in green.
Nice.
So she would have just vanished into the white.
So the top she eventually wore was actually inspired by a top that
was a favourite of Paul Joyce's wife.
So I think there must have been some visual similarity because I
think when that happened, Paul Joyce said, you know what, I think
I've got an idea of something Lala would look lovely in.
And she, you know, she does look all floaty and ethereal as she
wanders about and she gets that wonderful scene very early on with
the privateer crew.
Do you know, I don't like her in that scene.
No?
Which scene is it?
So it's the one where she comes out and she's being all mysterious
and the doctor.
She's, you know, one of that silly thing where she, this is the
signal I'm going to give you, like, to the doctor, which I just
think is so stupid.
No, I It doesn't work.
No, I don't think it quite works.
And I think she needs to be being more like Tom, because part of
this is that she leaves the doctor at the end to become the doctor
where she'll have a tarnish.
She'll be travelling with canine and she'll be going from planet
to planet, freeing slaves.
So she's doing the doctor, but in a smaller universe, you know, so
she's a sort of 2nd rate doctor.
And so she comes out of the TARDIS.
She tells her companion to stay inside.
She's all zanian kind of mysterious and annoying like Tom.
But she doesn't quite get it right.
And I think her normal thing where she's a little happier and a
little bit more sort of lip and smiley would have worked better.
And the other thing I don't like about that scene is that she's
punished for being the doctor because she's immediately captured
and strapped to a chair.
So I think that's a bit unfortunate.
But she can scream.
I'll give her points on that over Mary Tam.
Yeah, yeah.
She does a great scream at the end of episode 2 or which...
Yeah.
But it always concerns me when a companion starts talking about
very early on in the story, you know, what if the doctor and I
went different ways or there's just a line there. heightened sort
of spidey senses start to blink.
No, no, no, this could be the end of end of the companion.
And the canine thing where he can't come back through the mirror.
Yeah, yeah.
Can we talk about her departure?
Yeah.
Obviously, it was, you know, canine and her departure was
publicised quite a lot.
This is the 1st story of the season not going up against Buck
Rogers.
And so suddenly the ratings are above 7000000 for the 1st time.
The only story of the season to have one episode above 8 million.
Right.
And 2 of the 3 episodes that place in the top 70 are in this
story.
So, you know, it's taken us 20 episodes to get half decent
rating.
Her departure in episode four.
I just think is so rushed.
Yeah.
And I really hate Tom's.
I've always hated Tom's line.
You were the noblest Romana of them all.
For me, Mary Tam was like this...
No, it's a quote.
It's a quote from Julius Caesar.
Well, okay, can I just finish and say, I really hate the line, and
I just think it applies to Mary Tam more than it does to Lala
Wood's incarnation, and was it an ad lib or was it scripted?
I think it was scripted because the look on Tom's face, his heart
isn't in that line.
You know, they were probably fighting that day.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know.
I still don't, I still dislike the line.
Yeah, because it can be read because we've had 2 Romanas.
It can be read as talking to Lala rather than talking to Romana.
Yes.
But Brutus is the final speech of Julius Caesar, I think, where
Octavian comes in and talks about Brutus and says he was the
noblest Roman of them all.
As I say, that line is that line is clunky.
The actual lines they have leading up to the departure.
I don't think the script is at fault.
I feel like the filming of that scene was rushed.
There's, they sort of just say the lines at each other and then
and then it's gone.
But the lines themselves are very nice, like, just, I'm not coming
with you.
No more orders, you know.
I really like Lala's delivery there.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, because she's relieved in a way.
She's happy.
Yeah, yeah.
It's not a sad departure.
No.
And those two, like you can't do a sentimental departure.
You can't do David Tennant and Billy Parker on different sides of
the universe.
I mean, they're going to different universes.
You just can't do that with Tom because, you know, of what Tom's
like.
And the 2 of them are kind of grown ups and it's not, you know
it's never, ever going to be soppy with them.
And so I quite like, you know, there's a lot of noise in the
background, they're leaving in the middle of a kind of giant
emergency and stuff.
And so it is really rushed.
And then you do get that tag scene at the end.
Tom's not in it, but the TARDIS is there and Romana won as if he's
going to be okay.
Well, we then do get a bit from Tom with Adric saying, will Romana
be all right, and the doctor says she'll be superb.
And Tom is brilliant in that moment.
And you can tell he's the doctor talking about Romana and his Tom
Baker talking about... you know that moment is great.
I think very early on that foreshadowing you referred to, Todd
when she says, what if we go our separate ways?
That's one of Matthew Waterhouse's best moments to date.
You know, he only has a few words, but he genuinely conveys the
fear that this new family he's found with his own family dead is
breaking apart.
And it doesn't, it doesn't carry through the story because Adrik
is, Adrik is very underused in this story.
You know, he disappears for vast ways of the plot.
I think that when we last see him in episode 3 and when we 1st see
him in episode two, he's missing for about 20 minutes until he
turns up on the laser and has that wonderful line of, I don't know
what these buttons do, but it's pointing in your direction.
It's so badly delivered that line, isn't it?
He's really not very good, poor Matthew.
This story is not a showcase for him at all.
Like that walking around, keeping on tossing the coin where he's
quite awkward.
He shouts at Kana outside.
I don't know, shouts at Kane, I've got notes here, people.
Shouts, Patrick shouts at canine outside hell, dash, pathetic.
Right, so there's obviously something that I just kind of went
it's that bit where he's going, quiet.
Oh, dear Lord.
And then I've got part four.
Where is Hendrick?
Where is he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then there's that continuity thing where he's got canine's
ear.
Yeah, and then the ears are back.
And he is back.
It's like, yeah, it's not this is not his finest album.
There's that bit where they're hiding under the blanket and Romana
says to him, follow them.
Follow, follow.
It's because it's because Matthew missed his queue.
Like he was meant to go on the 1st follow.
But Lala knew how behind they were in terms of filming.
They had various overruns, the longest of which was half an hour.
They had a half hour overrun on the 1st day of filming.
I think actually, I think that's why Paul Joyce was initially
fired.
Yeah, but Lala stays in character, so they don't have to retake
the scene.
In preparation for these podcasts, I watch DVDs with the info text
on the bottom.
Which is, yeah, it's very informative.
But that wonderful bit where the doctor's going to confront Royal
Vic and says to Romana, it's it's time you obey orders.
It's long past time.
You don't know where it is, but Adrik then says, well, I'm coming
too, and Romana gives him the same spiel as the doctor.
The caption that comes up on the screwed at that moment is, can
you tell that Lala Ward and Matthew Waterhouse didn't really get
on?
I, I, you know, I have no confirmation of this, but I believe that
they, I believe that Lala still doesn't rate Matthew very highly
possibly.
Well, he's, um, he is fairly frank about how he felt she treated
him in his autobiography.
Yeah.
Which is available in all good bookstores.
It's actually pretty good.
It's a great read.
And some pretty terrible bookstores as well, let's Big Frank.
You know, that's not an indication of the book.
The other part I really love about the ending is Romana's last
line, like, and we're going to help free them.
I think it's something we should do.
Wittingly, possibly unwittingly.
You know, 3 years ago we had Graham Williams start and he was
appalled that the doctor had this, had a lack of any
responsibility and wasn't answerable to anyone.
The character that Graham Williams introduces as his ideal
companion character to start having a moral compass ends up
having...
Probably the greatest moral compass of a leading companion, maybe
equal with Joe Grant, of I'm leaving explicitly to devote my life
to helping other people because that's what the doctor does.
And I think maybe that's the response to Graham Williams.
The doctor is such a great character and thus Romana becomes such
a great character, not because he has a responsibility or a duty
to help people, but because he does it anyway.
Yeah.
And that's how Romano leaves as well because Rod and I had a long
discussion about this departure because he hates it.
He hates how perfunctory it is.
He hates that free not that she's going off to free slaves, but
she's going to have a horrible life and this, that, the other.
Like, he really hates companion departures where they're killed or
they have a horrible life.
You know, he's like, your life should be made better by the
doctor.
But I'm saying, well, no, her life is made better, but that
doesn't mean it's easy.
Yeah, no, she goes off to be the doctor.
Yeah, they're going to build the TARDIS.
They're going to travel around e-space fighting oppression.
It's exactly what the doctor does.
She's going to be the doctor.
She's going to be superb.
She is superb.
I get, you know, on another slightly different hack, you know, the
links to the 70s are now, you know, disappearing.
K9's been in the show for almost 4 years, Romana for three.
You know, this is point, this is where the 80s are really, you
know, if we didn't know that we were in the 80s, We are now going
to be.
Well, and truly, the 70s are long gone.
And in fact, it's Xander for whom I haven't quoted for a long time
so here goes.
He says that the way that the regeneration is handled is that
Tom's show is just gradually dismantled around him, and Davison's
show is introduced before Davison comes in.
And so, you know, that's what's going to happen over the next few
stories, well, the next two.
You know, by the time Tom leaves, the program is just not
recognisably his.
And this is the biggest shakeup.
I think we've had in a season for a very, very long time.
Yeah, the only comparable one I can think of is where we start
season 4 with the 1st Dr. Ben and Polly and end it with the 2nd Dr
Jamie and Victoria.
You know, and the format, the stars, the companions, the producers
the script editor, all change in the course of 9 stories.
Yeah.
And, you know, we have a similar thinking over the course of
seven.
But there's much more creative unity here, obviously.
It is a very deliberate thing.
Like it's retooling the program deliberately, whereas season 4 is
what the hell are we doing?
Apparently, it was also around the time of rehearsals for this
that Tom decided he was going to leave.
It's part of the reason that because very often when the show got
into the studio and there might be a moment of the script that
doesn't work.
So, for instance, there was meant to be a comedic moment in here
which Barry lets it let through of Royce or Aldo behind Packard's
console repairing it and sort of popping their head up and having
a chat with Packard.
But whenever Rawvik turned around.
They'd be behind the console, so they thought Packard was talking
to himself.
But yeah, then Packard's console is up against a rail on the upper
floor and they couldn't do it.
Now, normally that scene would have been reworked, but Bidmead was
off writing Legopolis because suddenly Tom was leaving.
Ah.
Final word about scripting on this, this wasn't the original story
for this slot.
It was originally a story called Sealed Orders.
By Christopher Priest.
By Christopher Priest, who would later pitch stories for next
seasons, also unsuccessful.
But the premise was going to be...
Multiple times as a multiple doctors are rising after the TARDIS
lands inside itself.
And the storyline, and I think some of the scripts were delivered
but it was deemed to be unworkable for television, i.e. we can't
afford this on Doctor Who's budget.
But, yeah, obviously, bid me like the idea of tartuses inside
tartuses.
Do we in a fortnight?
Yes.
Before we go, do we think that this script is appropriate for
Doctor Who on television at this time?
Yes.
Yeah, I do.
I think that what's happening is after the show being in a bit of
a rut.
Um, you get Bidmead coming along and showing us what it can do.
And, uh, as I said, everything is scientists, uh, in the Bidmead
era.
And I like that this is a break from that.
I like that it does magic in a way that those odd ball stories
like the mind robber or the celestial toy maker do, but that it
does it in that sort of mid-median sort of science, alchemy
context.
Um, it's variety, you know, I think this season is really, really
strong because it does a lot of different things.
Within its thematic structure.
Yeah, yeah. where it's still all about entropy, it's still all
about science and superstition.
You know, I think it's a really strong season and I like this
story as part of it.
Before we finish up, I'd just like to relay something from Paul
Joyce, the director.
Now, I mentioned earlier that the lighting director, lighting
engineer, uh, would write letters having a go about him, and his
main criticism of Paul Joyce is that Paul Joyce's methods would be
better suited to working on film than the environment of
television.
And apparently Paul pulled him up on that and said, well, Barry, I
think you'll find.
That television will start moving more towards film.
And maybe you'd like to come with me on that journey.
Well, sadly, and without any mention of Sagan's death face, we
come to the end of Warrior's Gate.
We'll be back next week to discuss the Keeper of Truck, and until
then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight
through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on
Twitter.
Meanwhile, over on Bond Finger, we have an array of James Bond
commentaries available.
Until next week, may none of your chains be made of dwarf star
alloy.
Thank you very much and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
I'm really sorry that I didn't mention that this is the first
Doctor Who story with the apostrophe in the title.
That rule has flagged her entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley
and Brendan Jones.
This episode, petulant teenage moment, was recorded on the 20th of
March, 2016.
The next episode will be released on May 15th.
Three days after this story, Romana negotiated $4 an hour
internships for all the Farrells, thus setting them free.
It's funny, you know, like, um, kill the moon.
Peter Harness was told to Henchcliff the size of it.
No one ever tells anyone to bid me cry out of it, do they?
I probably should, actually.
Well, they could say, do you want a JNT?
It could mean many things.
Do you know what wiles of something out of it?
Just massacre.