WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:34:28 1 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:40.020 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast Held Together by people just being terribly critical of one another. 2 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:40.799 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:40.859 --> 00:00:41.759 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:41.820 --> 00:00:42.719 I'm Todd. 5 00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:50.159 And we're going into a Johnny Burns debut script for the series with the keeper of Tracon. 6 00:00:59.219 --> 00:01:01.020 And this one is mine. 7 00:01:01.140 --> 00:01:02.520 I put my hand. 8 00:01:02.579 --> 00:01:06.180 I absolutely and utterly adore this story. 9 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:10.319 It's my favourite of the season, and I'm always liked it ever since I was a kid. 10 00:01:10.379 --> 00:01:15.959 I considered a few other stories, like, I considered 4 to Doomsday, which I like, and but it's got a few problems. 11 00:01:16.019 --> 00:01:20.040 I considered attack at the Cybern, which I like, but it's got a few problems. 12 00:01:20.099 --> 00:01:23.939 And I considered the mysterious punished, which I really like, but it's got a few problems. 13 00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:26.159 So I thought I'd go to this one, which I really like. 14 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:27.599 And you know what? 15 00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:34.019 It's not the best directed of the season, although I think John Black is really trying, is the director is really trying hard. 16 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:40.680 Um, It's not the best script of the season, um, maybe because the mask has to be shoehorned into it. 17 00:01:41.099 --> 00:01:56.400 But I think the performances by the majority of the cast, I think the actual cast, the costuming and the set design really, really sell this as a piece of television. 18 00:01:56.459 --> 00:01:58.560 They're spectacular, aren't they? 19 00:01:58.620 --> 00:01:59.219 Yeah. 20 00:01:59.280 --> 00:02:02.280 And, you know, the costumer, Amy Roberts? 21 00:02:02.340 --> 00:02:04.379 The design attorney Burrow was not. 22 00:02:04.439 --> 00:02:07.140 He could not get the set design he wanted. 23 00:02:07.200 --> 00:02:09.960 So there was this up and coming designer in the BBC department. 24 00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:16.439 And it's one of these things I talked about in previous podcasts with the serendipity of this season, things happen quite by accident. 25 00:02:16.500 --> 00:02:27.960 And often you get somebody new and enthusiastic, and here, the design of, you know, the keepers in a sanctum and the grove and the, just everything. 26 00:02:28.020 --> 00:02:32.039 I just think I just think it just works so beautifully, so, so beautifully. 27 00:02:32.099 --> 00:02:42.659 But I guess, I mean, we'll start, you know, right at the beginning where we've got a doctor and a male companion in the TARDIS for the 1st time since, um, what, uh, wheel in space, would it be? 28 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:43.860 Yes, yeah, yeah. 29 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:44.639 Absolutely. 30 00:02:44.699 --> 00:02:46.259 So that's 1968. 31 00:02:46.500 --> 00:02:47.340 So 13 years. 32 00:02:47.400 --> 00:02:50.039 I don't like that opening scene, can I say? 33 00:02:50.099 --> 00:02:54.360 I think we've had Andrew and Tom have been largely separated from each other. 34 00:02:54.419 --> 00:03:02.939 So either Tom and Lala have headed off and Andrix had his own plot or Tom's headed off and Lala and Andrik have had their own plot. 35 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:05.099 And so this is the 1st time we get Tom and Edrick together. 36 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:06.240 I think they work quite well. 37 00:03:06.300 --> 00:03:08.280 Don't you I do. 38 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:17.879 And one of the things I love about these final 80% of the season is that I think that it gives the character of Adrik, the opportunity to be with the doctor. 39 00:03:17.939 --> 00:03:25.860 It gives Matthew a bit of, I don't know, stability or the fact that he is the most senior other senior person in the TARDIS crew. 40 00:03:25.919 --> 00:03:35.400 And I think, He's much more comfortable is the word I'm going to use throughout these 2 stories, and I think he probably delivers his best performance in the next story. 41 00:03:35.460 --> 00:03:41.460 Here, I think he's still finding his feet a bit through some scenes, but at other times, I think he's quite confident. 42 00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:53.759 I mean, he's never going to be great, and, you know, he's always awkward in his movements and that sort of thing, but I really do feel that these back eight episodes of this season are some of the best stuff that he does on the show. 43 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:56.699 He's not being required to do things that he's terrible at. 44 00:03:56.759 --> 00:04:05.879 Like, you know, the conflict that starts creeping into the Cloudest crew next season, which he's always just kind of terrible in. 45 00:04:05.939 --> 00:04:10.379 Yeah, and it's really interesting to see him acting with Sarah Sutton. 46 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:15.300 They actually have a really good but low key chemistry together. 47 00:04:15.419 --> 00:04:16.199 Yeah. 48 00:04:16.199 --> 00:04:18.240 You know, whereas... 49 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:19.319 Well, that's the thing. 50 00:04:19.379 --> 00:04:25.740 As we get further into the 80s, chemistry in John Nathan Turner's mind seems to be people shouting at each other. 51 00:04:25.800 --> 00:04:26.579 That's chemistry. 52 00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:30.420 Whereas these 2, they're really quite sweet together. 53 00:04:30.480 --> 00:04:37.259 It's like they've never had a friend their own age, who is as intelligent. as Evan, we know that's the case for Adric. 54 00:04:37.319 --> 00:04:39.360 Because we know his background. 55 00:04:39.420 --> 00:04:42.779 We don't see any other people on track and this is age. 56 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:50.939 So they immediately take to each other and they sort of do science, do science-y chat with each other and there's a little bit of banter of, oh, you don't know this, but I know this. 57 00:04:51.180 --> 00:04:53.699 They're very, very sweet together. 58 00:04:53.819 --> 00:05:03.720 Can we go back to that 1st scene, which I really don't like, which I think is a big step, and that's where the keeper of truck and flits in to do some exposition. 59 00:05:03.779 --> 00:05:05.220 But I love that. 60 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:08.699 Yeah, I love the fact that this is the 1st time that somebody's come into the TARDIS. 61 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:11.699 We're doing flashbacks using the TARDIS scanner. 62 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:19.439 We've got that wonderful shot, which is a mimic of the shot back in the leisure hive where the camera goes through the scanner into the scene. 63 00:05:19.500 --> 00:05:24.720 And to me, this is the 1st time we're actually doing flashbacks in a Doctor Who story of this nature. 64 00:05:24.779 --> 00:05:27.240 I love the whole thing about the keeper. 65 00:05:27.300 --> 00:05:35.939 You've got the keeper, you've got you've got the consoles, you've got the proctors, you've got the society, you've got all the different planets working together. 66 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:45.839 I imagine that there were other keeper cabinets on the other planets. the place, with other consoles for those planets, but Trucken is the major one. 67 00:05:45.899 --> 00:05:47.519 I was dreaming this as a kid. 68 00:05:47.579 --> 00:05:50.579 Like the whole society and what was going to happen and all this sort of thing. 69 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:53.459 I just inspired my imagination. 70 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:54.540 I think it's really strong. 71 00:05:54.660 --> 00:06:17.819 I do think that the result is you do get a place that has very clear rules that you can understand really well, but it is, like, I think it's just a little bit leaden, and you imagine if it was to happen now, what you would do is you would start seeing the world and having it shown to you and not just explain to you by exposition guy. 72 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:21.420 And then you would go 10 years later or 5 years later. 73 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:23.220 Yeah, that's a good point. 74 00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:24.540 But I think that is the point. 75 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:28.560 In 1981, this hadn't really been done. 76 00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:29.339 No. 77 00:06:29.339 --> 00:06:39.420 So the idea, of course, you know, films and TV have always had what we now call info dumps, sort of expositional dialogue. 78 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:46.500 This is, at the very least, an interesting way of doing it because the keeper could just turn up and say, oh, we have this problem, doctor. 79 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:50.339 Please come and help us, which is kind of what Zaster does in Meglos. 80 00:06:50.399 --> 00:06:53.399 But this is a lot more interesting because we see that history. 81 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.959 And I think that's something that's very much coming from Johnny Byrne. 82 00:06:58.019 --> 00:07:04.319 Johnny Byrne always tries in his mind, he always has a backstory to his stuff. 83 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:13.019 Because Johnny for science fiction fans is probably most famous for being script editor, one of the script writers of space 1999. 84 00:07:13.259 --> 00:07:22.079 And quite a few episodes of Early Space 1999, start with an alien somehow turning up on the base and giving a bit of exposition. 85 00:07:22.139 --> 00:07:27.779 And maybe not at the beginning, like episodes like Alpha Child episodes like Earthbound, you know. 86 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:32.040 I think it's more successful here because in Space 1999. 87 00:07:32.220 --> 00:07:37.139 You've got 20 minutes of Barbara Bain looking at the camera saying, but is it safe? 88 00:07:37.199 --> 00:07:43.019 Whereas this, you have wonderful banter between Tom Baker and Dennis Carey, you know, which is adorable. 89 00:07:43.079 --> 00:07:44.459 Todds exploding. 90 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:46.920 I don't say something about... 91 00:07:46.980 --> 00:07:48.600 His space 999. 92 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:51.959 It's sort of like you're trying to sell Johnny Byrne on the back of that. 93 00:07:52.019 --> 00:07:57.000 I guess it is season one, which is better than season two. don't know. 94 00:07:57.060 --> 00:07:58.980 Season 2 goes to Hail. awful. 95 00:07:59.399 --> 00:08:03.120 Going back, you were trying to make a point about. 96 00:08:03.240 --> 00:08:16.019 Oh, no, no, I just said that I thought that the exposition and maybe I'm being unfair, but certainly by modern standards, it's kind of leaden and it slows things down. 97 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:20.279 And are we to understand that they arrive on the wedding day? 98 00:08:20.339 --> 00:08:21.360 No. 99 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:23.220 So they... 100 00:08:23.279 --> 00:08:25.019 Oh, maybe they run after the wedding. 101 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:26.399 Yeah, just after the wedding. 102 00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:34.259 Because then we get the scene if all the stars were silver and if I were a Shakespeare play, I couldn't be happier than I am right now. 103 00:08:34.320 --> 00:08:36.600 And that's not in the flashback, is it? 104 00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:38.519 No, that's actually happening. 105 00:08:38.580 --> 00:08:41.460 So I think in terms of chronology, if you like. 106 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:55.500 The keeper turns up to bless the wedding. sees Cassia with the reaction to TreeMass being put forward and then summons the doctor because he's like, hold on, you know, this isn't, this isn't how Trunkins react to so great normal. skip down on the reception. 107 00:08:55.559 --> 00:08:59.159 Yeah, exactly. get the doctor to come and then the doctor arrives. 108 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:05.519 It's really interesting, like, again, this is a story where a character knows about the doctor. 109 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:11.279 This is something that's beginning to happen more and more in 80s Doctor 2, which I don't particularly love. 110 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:12.419 Yeah, right? 111 00:09:12.480 --> 00:09:16.620 But it's there and at the moment it hasn't happened too often, which is perfectly okay. 112 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:24.899 Obviously, we get to see Melka appear in the flashbacks with young Cassia. 113 00:09:25.019 --> 00:09:27.120 Which is all very convenient. 114 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:39.419 That's one thing that, you know, that, that, that, that, Mel could assigns to manifest itself by just descending rather than um, realising, of course, that would give the whole plot away. 115 00:09:39.480 --> 00:09:51.240 I mean, it's the one thing now that when I do watch it is that, you know, the doctor is aware of the energy readings of Melker and is suspicious, but I think it takes him far, far too long to sort of come to the realisation that this is the master. 116 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:59.820 So, the master has allowed himself to get trapped because the word melka is the Tranken's name for a phenomenon that happened. 117 00:09:59.879 --> 00:10:01.379 Yeah, fly fract and honey. 118 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:10.860 Yeah, so these things, so the masters allowed himself to do this, he's been in the TARDIS trapped for like 20 years or something, like since Cassia was a little girl. 119 00:10:10.919 --> 00:10:17.039 You see, to me, when I read it, I don't necessarily see seeing him as being trapped per se. 120 00:10:17.100 --> 00:10:21.419 That's the track and perspective that these things have been... 121 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:21.840 Oh, yeah. 122 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:27.179 So he, for all purposes, realises that the keeper's time is drawing to an end. 123 00:10:27.299 --> 00:10:29.039 So he's waiting for it. 124 00:10:29.100 --> 00:10:43.440 But why wouldn't he just then materialise, you know, 3 minutes before the keeper's going to drop dead to take over the source because he's got a plan, his traps within traps for castra valver and logopolis in case it all goes horribly wrong over the next 2 stories. 125 00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:45.840 Am I going off on a complete... 126 00:10:45.899 --> 00:10:47.820 No, because I don't think he's developed those planes yet. 127 00:10:47.879 --> 00:10:53.220 He does say to the doctor later, you will find mobility, immobility, and durable. 128 00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:54.120 Do you know what I mean? 129 00:10:54.179 --> 00:10:56.879 So it does suggest that he has been trapped. 130 00:10:56.940 --> 00:10:59.580 The Melka thing looks tremendous. 131 00:10:59.639 --> 00:11:00.899 The statue is great. 132 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:02.519 Yeah, beautiful. 133 00:11:02.580 --> 00:11:05.639 When it moves, like, I actually like how it moves. 134 00:11:05.700 --> 00:11:06.480 I do too. 135 00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:16.139 I think it's a slightly dodgy on some of the leg movements, but the head and all that and I just think it's it's a great design and it really is quite freaking. 136 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:18.659 It's surprising, I think when it starts moving as well. 137 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:24.360 It does look like it's going to be a statue and then it walks up at the end of episode one. 138 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:28.559 With the master's long, long, long game, if you like. 139 00:11:28.620 --> 00:11:41.039 I actually really, really like it because we kind of discussed in deadly assassin, the character had been weakened and he was just a raving, raving madman and what have you, who wanted to blow up the world because it's there. 140 00:11:41.220 --> 00:11:45.840 Whereas here, okay, so the master knows that the keeper's gonna die. 141 00:11:46.019 --> 00:11:52.139 But rather than materialise 3 minutes before, he's he's immobile, he's trapped in his TARDIS. 142 00:11:52.200 --> 00:12:01.200 So he's like, right, I'm going to get there 20 years before and I'm going to build up this relationship with a person and then I'm going to use that person. 143 00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:06.360 The master's always used people, but instead, but, you know, he can't use this hypnotic power. 144 00:12:06.419 --> 00:12:16.080 And with the way evil works on track and that's apparently calcified, that it's understandable, that he can't just pop out of the TARTIS and go, zap, you're in my power now. 145 00:12:16.139 --> 00:12:23.700 No, he doesn't sort of hypnotise Cassia until the events of the story and even then it's just to strengthen the holes. 146 00:12:23.759 --> 00:12:25.799 He already has on her. 147 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.659 But the thing is, he hasn't spoken to her before the story. 148 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:34.919 His entire psychological hold on her, she's made herself. 149 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.600 It's so evil and insidious and I love it. 150 00:12:39.659 --> 00:12:49.919 It's, it, it's, They decided they wanted to bring back the master and they bring, they look at, what are his greatest qualities, you know, not, not that he kills people. 151 00:12:49.980 --> 00:12:52.080 You know, that's that's the Daleks thing. 152 00:12:52.139 --> 00:12:55.139 Not that he's cold and logical, that's the sign dancing. 153 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.399 No, his main quality is he can turn people against themselves. 154 00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:02.940 Just what you've said has made me love this story even more. 155 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:07.259 It's something I never, never really thought about. 156 00:13:07.379 --> 00:13:09.299 The Master's a late edition, isn't it? 157 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:17.879 Yes, Johnny Burner delivered the scripts and then he went off onto holiday and then Nathan Turner decided that the master would be great to bring the master back. 158 00:13:17.940 --> 00:13:20.639 Let's put him into this story and Bid had to then do the work to do that. 159 00:13:20.700 --> 00:13:26.279 I don't know what the difference is between the original and that, but, you know, if Melco was there. 160 00:13:26.340 --> 00:13:33.600 And Melka's long game was to get into the keeper's chair making the changes. 161 00:13:33.659 --> 00:13:35.399 I think it adds a layer to the story. 162 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:36.480 Yeah, absolutely. 163 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:39.899 Do you think it was a good idea to bring back the master? 164 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:41.519 In the long term? 165 00:13:41.580 --> 00:13:46.320 No, but in the short term, I think it really works for this and the next 2 stories. 166 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:48.000 I think that bridging that is good. 167 00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:52.440 After that, I think, well, what they do with the master is pretty pathetic. 168 00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:55.919 Well, they're not really thinking about the character in another sense. 169 00:13:55.980 --> 00:14:01.500 I mean, Brendan, what you say about him manipulating people and making them act against their own interest. 170 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:09.779 But what the master really is, is a rival who threatens to take over the doctor's role as star of the program. 171 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:12.539 He needs to be the opposite of the doctor. 172 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:16.559 And so each new iteration of the doctor really needs a different master. 173 00:14:16.620 --> 00:14:22.320 You know, so you've got Delgado, who is patrician, arrogant, but foreign. 174 00:14:22.379 --> 00:14:27.659 You know, he's like a version of Pertwee, and he works with Pertwee. 175 00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:32.220 Here, you've got Ainley, who's not really designed to work with a particular doctor. 176 00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:43.259 He has a goatee because that's what he had in the 70s and he's just a long because that's the sort of thing that Doctor Who used to do. 177 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:45.779 But of course, Ainley is not the master yet. 178 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:46.679 He's tree mouse. 179 00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:49.559 And he's rather wonderful, has tree mouth. 180 00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:55.440 This is Anthony Amy's best performance in Doctor Who, in my opinion, and I utterly adored tree medicine. 181 00:14:55.500 --> 00:15:01.320 I was utterly not devastated, but really upset at the end of the story when he gets when he is married. 182 00:15:01.379 --> 00:15:04.019 I think it's an amazingly upsetting ending. 183 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:06.600 Yeah, and I just... 184 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:19.559 I just adore TreamS as a character, like this, this father, this husband, this, this really good, honest man, who, who can talk to the doctor who wants to protect his people. 185 00:15:19.620 --> 00:15:22.799 It's just, it affects me now, just, just talking about it. 186 00:15:22.860 --> 00:15:31.259 It's only, I don't know, it's like the Pitt and Jane Baker thing, the more you see of the actor or their writing, the more you see the cliches in their performance. 187 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:40.980 So there's certain ways that Anthony Ainley pronounces his words, et cetera, now, that I see in the performance of tree mass, only because I've seen his performance at the master. 188 00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:41.940 You know? 189 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:46.139 Do you know, I actually, I don't think he's that good. 190 00:15:46.200 --> 00:16:05.279 And I think the reason is, and it's maybe the script's problem and maybe the director as well, but it's his wedding day and the day after his wedding day and he's just curiously kind of unaffected by the death of his wife and by her acting all weird and out of character. 191 00:16:05.340 --> 00:16:15.539 You know, like he shows no affection really to Nissa at all and he doesn't really seem to show any affection to Cassia either. 192 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:20.279 Yeah, see, though, I think, I think the Tracans, they're a little bit Vulcan. 193 00:16:20.340 --> 00:16:35.159 You know, they're so they're so science-y-minded that, The, you know, the only character who sort of expresses what we would consider as negative human elements is Neiman, and, you know, he's a, he's an opportunist and what have you. 194 00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:37.320 And that scene as a bad thing. 195 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:39.240 I suppose you've also got Lubic. 196 00:16:39.299 --> 00:16:40.259 I love Lubic. 197 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:41.399 I like Lubic as well. 198 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.500 I thought he was John Leeson when I was a kid. 199 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:47.039 You know, he looks like John Leeson, but there's that wonderful bit. 200 00:16:47.100 --> 00:16:49.980 I think it's episode 2 where Ceron is killed. 201 00:16:50.039 --> 00:16:50.879 John Woodner. 202 00:16:50.940 --> 00:16:55.500 John Woodner is back again and being wonderful and they're discussing what's happening. 203 00:16:55.559 --> 00:16:59.039 Uh, Couture, who is um, Margot Vanderberg. 204 00:16:59.100 --> 00:17:00.419 She's Kamika. 205 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:10.980 She's Kameka from the Aztecs, and they're discussing what they should do, and Lubic leans in to say something very important and says, I don't know what's going on. 206 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.799 He says about 3 times, actually. 207 00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:16.680 And it sounds like it sounds like that character. 208 00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:24.539 And you've talked about all these actors, and I just think the casting, all these people are cast in these roles, and I just think they do such a tremendous job. 209 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:26.279 I just, I love Seron. 210 00:17:26.339 --> 00:17:29.880 I love his scientific thing and John Willard does such a great job. 211 00:17:29.940 --> 00:17:34.140 Like, you know, we're betrayed tree mass and Margot Vanderberg as Coutura. 212 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:35.039 I really hate it. 213 00:17:35.099 --> 00:17:39.180 Like as a character because it's sort of like, well, we're going to just kill the doctor, kill the strangers. 214 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.779 And then, of course, when we get the new keeper, it's sort of like, oh, well... 215 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:43.799 We'd better do what he says. 216 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:44.460 Exactly. 217 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:46.380 It's sort of like she's after her own skin. 218 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:52.619 It's very much like Downton Abbey where you've got the Maggie Smith character who's very much in the past, you know what I mean? 219 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:56.099 And things need to stay the same, and you know, this is the way we've always done it. 220 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:00.180 And so that parallel now sort of reminds me of her. 221 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:04.980 But they're all, I just think getting such Shakespearean and wonderful performances. 222 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.980 And I think it's one of the, the strengths of this story. 223 00:18:08.099 --> 00:18:18.299 You know, John Black then cast Sheila Ruskin as Cassia, who I just feel for her, like, and at other times, I just want to punch her in the face. 224 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:19.079 You know? 225 00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:20.940 It's a really actorly performance. 226 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:22.259 Her performance. 227 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:22.799 Yeah, yeah. 228 00:18:22.859 --> 00:18:49.019 And you hit on something with a Shakespeare thing, and I think that this is said quite often about this show, that at the time it's made, the BBC is producing a thing called a season of Shakespeare, where they do every Shakespeare play, and they're about two hours long, depending on the sort of source material, they're all shot in the studio, and the sets all look very similar to the set from Keeper of Track, and, like, you know, with the sky. 229 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.059 Like I love the sky and the grove. 230 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:56.579 I think it looks spectacular, and that's how they do the outdoor scenes in a season of Shakespeare. 231 00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:56.940 Okay. 232 00:18:56.940 --> 00:18:59.579 And the costumes are very much like that. 233 00:18:59.640 --> 00:19:03.359 So the whole thing looks production wise very much like that. 234 00:19:03.420 --> 00:19:06.960 But the scripts as well have sort of Shakespearean elements in it. 235 00:19:07.019 --> 00:19:09.420 And so Sheila Ruskin fainting. 236 00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:11.700 Can I just say that asleep? 237 00:19:11.759 --> 00:19:21.779 That is one of the most hilarious things when you're sort of like, there's a web of nothing here and I'm going to just collapse on the ground or when she's saying, no, we must not become the keeper or whatever. 238 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:23.160 She does a little assignment. 239 00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:24.599 And he was going, what? 240 00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:24.839 What? 241 00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:26.220 nothing at all. 242 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:28.259 I really, really liked that. 243 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:34.079 And there's like, you know, pulling people out from behind things like Polonius in Hamlet. 244 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:40.559 And some of the dialogue is in iambic pentameters and, you know, their Shakespearean language. 245 00:19:40.619 --> 00:19:48.839 I think Serong accuses them of meeting hugger mugger to like Polonius's burial, I think. 246 00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:51.720 There is a very sort of deliberate Shakespearean thing. 247 00:19:51.779 --> 00:19:52.920 And of course, thematically. 248 00:19:52.980 --> 00:20:03.240 There are scenes in Shakespeare, like, at the death of Duncan, in Macbeth, or The Death of Julius Caesar, in Julius Caesar. 249 00:20:03.299 --> 00:20:06.900 The madness of King Lear when he's out with the when he's out with the fool. 250 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:21.059 Yeah, so it's reflected, like the king, the state of the monarch, like the death of a king, results in nature going crazy and there's storms and all of those kinds of things. 251 00:20:21.180 --> 00:20:22.019 Horses eat each other. 252 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:23.640 The horses eat each other, it said. 253 00:20:23.700 --> 00:20:26.160 And so that's what's happening here. 254 00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:42.720 It's a huge theme in Shakespeare and this is about a court discussing the succession of one monarch to another, and the whole health of the body politic depends on the health of a monarch, and even nature itself depends on the health of the monarch. 255 00:20:43.140 --> 00:20:52.019 Something I quite like about that is, you know, of course, pre-Mass is named as keep a nominate, that doesn't happen. 256 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.759 Cassia steps in and is usurped by the master, so the master becomes the keeper. 257 00:20:56.819 --> 00:20:59.880 But then finally, Luvic becomes a keeper. 258 00:20:59.940 --> 00:21:03.539 Luvic, who has been sitting there going, I don't know what to do, what do we do? 259 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:04.140 I don't do anything. 260 00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.480 He is the one who makes the final decision. 261 00:21:06.539 --> 00:21:09.119 You know, I will sacrifice myself for my people. 262 00:21:09.180 --> 00:21:16.859 I love how he does that because it's a real rush and he and Couture are kind of with each other and he goes, I'll go. 263 00:21:16.920 --> 00:21:20.940 And they sort of rush us off and sits in the chair and it's just terrific. 264 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:21.599 He's really great. 265 00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:23.400 Yeah, it's bringing tears to my eyes. 266 00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:27.480 Like it honestly is one of the most affected scenes for me in the history of the show. 267 00:21:27.539 --> 00:21:30.299 And what happens in the following story. 268 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:34.740 Just let me utterly devastate. utterly and totally devastated. 269 00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:35.400 Right? 270 00:21:35.460 --> 00:21:37.559 I don't want to talk about it now, right? 271 00:21:37.619 --> 00:21:41.339 But it just really, really upsets me even to even think about it now. 272 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:44.339 I just think with everything that has gone on in this story. 273 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.660 We were talking a bit about, like, you know, the elements and the forces and that sort of getting upset. 274 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:55.319 The scene with all the wind and all that sort of stuff, I don't think, is that well done now looking at it. 275 00:21:55.380 --> 00:21:57.539 No, but it's a stage thing. 276 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:00.059 Yeah, so it fits with the style of the production. 277 00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.720 There's a few little things like in the direction. 278 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:12.539 I'm sure there's one moment where the camera is coming into to one of those step ups out of the grove and I'm sure it hits it at some point. 279 00:22:12.599 --> 00:22:20.759 Like there's a little bump and I just went, so there's a few little things and I don't actually like the meld at the end between Trimus and the master. 280 00:22:20.819 --> 00:22:25.799 I think that's really quite, I just kind of, I kind of go, oh, it's really, it's really big proming. 281 00:22:25.859 --> 00:22:35.759 One special effect that I think works terrifically well is at the end of episode 3 where Cassia is covered with this superimposed effect because she's going to disappear and be replaced by the master. 282 00:22:35.819 --> 00:22:39.839 And she does her sort of actressy waving her arms around. 283 00:22:39.900 --> 00:22:44.339 But there's a point where it's just her hands coming out of this special affair. 284 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.000 Yeah, yeah, and it looks really creepy. terrifying. 285 00:22:48.059 --> 00:22:50.160 And I just want to talk about that. 286 00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:56.460 I think that is one of the most utterly horrific moments in the history of Doctor Who, and I went to bed and had nightmares. 287 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:04.859 I was crying over that and I still affects me to this day when even when I watch it, the fact that this woman is materialised on. 288 00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:06.960 She is just, that is her death. 289 00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:21.779 It is just so, she's done everything to protect her husband, you know, even having funny eyes, like, um, uh, the, uh, image of the fend doll, which I really love, love it when they do those. 290 00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:27.539 But it is funny how, like, you know, she'll just stun tree mass, but everybody else who gets zapped by it dies. 291 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:29.519 Well, she loves tree masks, you know? 292 00:23:29.579 --> 00:23:30.180 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 293 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.519 And that's very Shakespearian as well. 294 00:23:32.579 --> 00:23:36.839 The love between couples in Shakespeare almost always leads to people dying. 295 00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:39.119 But yeah, it just... 296 00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:41.460 It just really affects me. 297 00:23:41.519 --> 00:23:45.240 Her entire death just really, really affects me. 298 00:23:45.299 --> 00:23:50.759 Besides Cassia, the other member of the family is, of course, NISA. 299 00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:53.039 And I think Sarah Sudden is great. 300 00:23:53.099 --> 00:23:54.539 You know, she's so natural. 301 00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:59.519 I love the fact that Nissa gets the iron bonder and gets to zap people. 302 00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:09.839 You know, she's actually given some, she's quite willing to take up arms, you know, the 1st opportunity, that is the prerequisite of a companion is willing to get in there and, you know, defend the doctor and fight for good. 303 00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:12.960 You know, she'll do it again in the other Johnny Burns script, you know? 304 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:17.339 And you know, she's not given many of these opportunities, which is, you know, so unfair. 305 00:24:17.460 --> 00:24:30.240 And I love, and we talked earlier about her relationship with Adrick, and I like that this little duo that are trying to work on their own thing, which is parallel to the doctor and treatment, discussing, you know, destroying the source in parallel. 306 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:35.880 And, um, and I like the fact that she gets to go inside the Tartars and see all that as sort of an introduction. 307 00:24:35.940 --> 00:24:40.920 Obviously, at this point they hadn't decided that she was going to come aboard the crew in the next story. 308 00:24:40.980 --> 00:24:44.700 And I think the moment that that tremor becomes the master. 309 00:24:44.819 --> 00:24:53.819 I think influences that script because in Lagopolis, there's a whole bit about, you know, she thinks it is her father. 310 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:57.660 Now, if they didn't have Nyssa in there to do that. 311 00:24:57.720 --> 00:24:58.740 You know, who would it be? 312 00:24:58.799 --> 00:25:00.240 What would be going on in the plot? 313 00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:03.359 You know, that's a good 10 minutes of that plot that he needs her for. 314 00:25:03.420 --> 00:25:07.440 She, I mean, she's a very experienced actor by this stage, isn't she? 315 00:25:07.559 --> 00:25:12.240 She's done lots of things as a child and she's pretty good here. 316 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:16.319 She doesn't really appear until she doesn't get a line until episode two, does she? 317 00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:18.779 Yeah, it does take a while for her to get that. 318 00:25:18.839 --> 00:25:29.759 But just, you know, her relationship with Cassia, you know, getting discovered in the grove and then telling the proctor to send away the people and hilarious. fabulously anastocratic, isn't she? 319 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:33.779 Yeah, again, that's another sort of Shakespearean thing, this sort of class thing. 320 00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:39.660 So they're the mob, you know, and they're an offence against the dignity of the consoles or something. 321 00:25:39.660 --> 00:25:42.539 She's a fabulous princess in that scene. 322 00:25:42.660 --> 00:25:51.119 I know, you know, I love the fact that they're, when they do get put away downstairs, you know, she's going to break them out of the prison and all that sort of stuff. 323 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:56.880 It reminds me always of that scene when they're actually in the cell with Tom, where he's got that bit of sawdust dangling from his nose. 324 00:25:56.940 --> 00:25:58.859 I thought it was a spider web. 325 00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:01.920 It looks like a great big bogey, doesn't it? 326 00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:03.359 Yeah, a lot of people think it's a movie. 327 00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:06.180 Well, if you look at the ground, it's all got sawdust. 328 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.980 So it's obviously, but it's there and then it's not, you know, it jumps between the different tanks. 329 00:26:11.039 --> 00:26:13.380 It's always interesting to see. 330 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:23.039 One of the things I really love is the flames that indicate that the keeper is dying, that whole concept of them being really like brightly lit and then gradually going down. 331 00:26:23.099 --> 00:26:24.119 I don't know why. 332 00:26:24.180 --> 00:26:26.640 I like these things, but I just do. 333 00:26:26.700 --> 00:26:29.880 It's just something the visual of it just really, really appeals to me. 334 00:26:29.940 --> 00:26:32.460 That is a thing called a flame bar. 335 00:26:32.579 --> 00:26:35.039 That, that thing with the poems. 336 00:26:35.099 --> 00:26:42.420 And if you imagine sort of a strip of metal that has, it's got gas jets inside and it shoots the flames up. 337 00:26:42.480 --> 00:26:43.799 It's the same thing. 338 00:26:44.220 --> 00:26:55.799 Probably not the exact same one, but it's the same type of thing that I hold in front of the camera in the last episode when the doctor's making is escape to have flames in front of him, yeah. 339 00:26:55.859 --> 00:27:00.000 And it was they were very commonly used in television for fire scene. 340 00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:06.960 So it's kind of like you can just have, really, you can just have smoke going on in the background and have that flame bar close to the camera and the actor is never in any danger. 341 00:27:07.019 --> 00:27:09.779 Now, here they do have fire in the background as well. 342 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:11.519 But yeah, it's a flame bar. 343 00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:13.619 There you go. interesting. 344 00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:15.299 Proctanine. 345 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:23.579 Interesting little character who's very much in it for himself who eventually gets one of the rings of the consoles. 346 00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:28.319 I always love that thing that you get this special ring and you get to put it into the console and punch these magic numbers. 347 00:27:28.440 --> 00:27:33.420 It's literally a secret decoder ring for our American listeners. 348 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.240 Like, I mean, that's really stupid. 349 00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:39.539 Those numbers that the doctor punches, the last 3 digits are 337. 350 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.759 Like I'm going, where are you making this up from? 351 00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:44.519 But that's the encryption key. 352 00:27:44.579 --> 00:27:45.539 There's dialogues, isn't there? 353 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:47.880 They need to... based on a single prime number. 354 00:27:47.940 --> 00:27:49.200 Yeah, hold on. 355 00:27:49.259 --> 00:27:50.460 I've got it here. 356 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:51.779 What's that piece of the mechanism? 357 00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:54.240 Oh, of course, a recursive integrator. 358 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:55.440 How are the rings encoded? 359 00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:56.940 Gamma mode encryption. 360 00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:02.339 Then there'll be a single large prime number at the root of it, and we don't have the integer key. 361 00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:03.420 Yeah, so there you go. 362 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:04.980 That makes no sense to me. 363 00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:05.940 I don't understand. 364 00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:06.420 That makes sense. 365 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:07.079 That makes sense. 366 00:28:07.200 --> 00:28:07.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 367 00:28:07.740 --> 00:28:10.079 Prime numbers are used in encryption, I think. 368 00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:16.380 And so they're entering the prime number in there too, because they don't have all of the all of the secret decoder rings. 369 00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:20.519 I love his neckband and Cassie's neckband that they get to wear. 370 00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:21.420 Which no one notices. 371 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:23.940 No one notices the neck band. 372 00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:27.539 You've added that thing that occasionally glows red when you kill people. 373 00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:29.039 Where did you get that? 374 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.279 Speaking of which, that, where did she get it actually? 375 00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:36.059 Did the master nip outside and put it at the feet of the thing? 376 00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.640 If so, where's the door in Melka? 377 00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:42.299 Well, you know, he's had to be doing something for the last 20 years. 378 00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:45.960 Actually, just started off as a normal bondage comment. 379 00:28:46.019 --> 00:28:49.200 So can we talk about Jeffrey Beavers? 380 00:28:49.259 --> 00:28:50.160 We could. 381 00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:54.420 He's got a spectacular voice. 382 00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.519 It's really great. 383 00:28:56.579 --> 00:29:01.619 And it's sometimes really evil and sometimes a bit playful. 384 00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:03.420 There's some humour in it. 385 00:29:03.480 --> 00:29:04.980 It's just tremendous. 386 00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:22.440 All designs are wonderfully well delivered, and he's gone on to have a great career in the audiobooks, whenever, because, um, you know, no one else who played the master in the in the original show is is with us any longer, he's the one who reads the audiobooks that have the master in them, and he's wonderful. 387 00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:25.799 You know, why couldn't you cast somebody like him as the master? 388 00:29:25.859 --> 00:29:29.700 Like, you don't have to look like, no, Roger Delgado. 389 00:29:29.759 --> 00:29:33.359 Like, but of course, you know, at that time, that's not, that's not the thinking. 390 00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:36.599 His work in Big Finish as the master is just spectacular. 391 00:29:36.660 --> 00:29:40.559 I think it's a real shame that he's not credited as the master on screen. 392 00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:42.599 He just credited as Melka, you know? 393 00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:45.119 And I think once that reveal it happened. 394 00:29:45.180 --> 00:29:47.819 I think he should have been credited as the master. 395 00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:49.319 In the final episode. 396 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:53.940 But that, all that stuff with Neiman and TreeMass and the Melka. 397 00:29:54.359 --> 00:30:01.559 Asking T-Mass as a reasonable man to execute Nieman and now yourself. 398 00:30:01.619 --> 00:30:05.579 It really does establish how unhinged the master is. 399 00:30:05.700 --> 00:30:12.059 Yeah, he doesn't actually get to do anything sort of, oh, he kills Cassia, I guess, but if you're going to reintroduce him. 400 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:15.779 He's got to be kind of super evil, I think. 401 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:21.299 And so having Neiman killed like that and having, you know, the doctor forced to watch and stuff. 402 00:30:21.359 --> 00:30:22.140 That is nasty. 403 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:24.779 It's nastier than the show has been for a while. 404 00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:27.180 But, you know, I think it's worth doing. 405 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:35.400 But very tellingly, it manages to be very nasty and horrific without resorting to blood and guts. 406 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:39.480 Because, of course, you know, early 80s, this is around the time. 407 00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:45.420 Of course, Texas Chainsaw Massacre was 6 or 7 years before this, the Friday, the 13th film series was really taking off. 408 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.480 We were a couple of years off getting nightmare on Elm Street. 409 00:30:48.539 --> 00:30:51.240 You know, slasher films were huge in this period. 410 00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:54.000 But Doctor Who is going at this point. 411 00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:54.839 You know what? 412 00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:55.140 No. 413 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:58.740 We're going to do what we did well at the beginning of this era. 414 00:30:58.799 --> 00:31:00.420 We're going to have psychological horror. 415 00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.119 And it's really, really effective. 416 00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:19.440 And I think it's all the more effective for the reasons you were saying, Todd, we have such excellent casting, that when these characters do die, despite the fact we've only known them for half an hour or an hour, it means something and we feel something for them. 417 00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:24.119 And I think we can imagine ourselves in that situation. 418 00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:34.619 And that is a criticism that will come back during the next few seasons of Doctor Who can we actually empathise with these characters? 419 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:50.400 I love how it's suave milker is once it becomes the keeper and picks in, you know, puts into Trimis's... house or quarters, I should say, and, you know, is asking for certain things. 420 00:31:50.460 --> 00:31:52.799 It's back to his voice performance. 421 00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:54.539 Yeah, it's wonderful. so wonderful. 422 00:31:54.599 --> 00:31:58.920 Yeah, no, he sounds just super reasonable and sort of mild. 423 00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:00.240 He's terrific. 424 00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:01.680 He really is spectacular. 425 00:32:01.740 --> 00:32:07.019 You know, I think I'm liking this story a lot more hearing you talk about it, Todd. 426 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:15.599 I was going to spend some time bitching about what, I think, like the kind of flaws of the bid made year. 427 00:32:15.660 --> 00:32:17.160 And this exhibits some of them. 428 00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:24.420 There's a lot of kind of that thing that Brendan quoted earlier about gamma mode encryption and stuff isn't necessarily the most entertaining thing. 429 00:32:24.539 --> 00:32:28.440 There's something to be said about, stick on BBC beers. 430 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:43.680 There are a bit more obvious. 30 years later, but it does create a really vivid and coherent world. this story and characters that you care about that aren't all men for a change. 431 00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.680 I think it is, it is pretty good and it looks great. 432 00:32:46.740 --> 00:32:49.200 It's a world that I would have loved to visit. 433 00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:56.279 Like, you know, there's some Doctor Who, and that's one as a child that I would have loved to, if it really happened, you know? 434 00:32:56.460 --> 00:33:09.180 This story has, uh, surprisingly, long afterlife in the world's big finish because, of course, Jeffrey Beavers, as you mentioned, Nathan, not only is he reading the audiobooks for the BBC. 435 00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:18.480 They brought him back as the master, opposite, predominantly Tom Baker, but also Sylvester McCoy, he's done some excellent stories for Sylvester McCoy. 436 00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:24.000 There was dust breeding where he originally comes back along with his wife, the late Carol and John, of course. 437 00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:26.099 He's Mr. Elizabeth Shaw. 438 00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.039 That is a tremendous audio. 439 00:33:29.099 --> 00:33:31.079 Anybody out there, if you've not heard it. 440 00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:32.640 That is one to get. 441 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:33.720 What's it called? 442 00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:34.920 Dust reading. 443 00:33:34.980 --> 00:33:37.980 And also Master by Joe Linster. 444 00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:44.940 Which was one of the 40th anniversary stories, and it kind of goes into the doctor and the master's relationship. 445 00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.700 But in the last few years, he's mainly been acting alongside Tom in stories set before the keeper of Tracan. 446 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:51.059 Right. 447 00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:53.759 He's had stories with Louise Jameson. 448 00:33:53.819 --> 00:34:06.119 I think he's got one coming up with Lull Award, and there's even a trilogy this year called The Two Masters, where you've got Jeffrey Beavers, and he's doing a story with Peter Davidson. 449 00:34:06.180 --> 00:34:11.219 You've got Alexander McQueen, who Big Finis have introduced as another new incarnation of the master. 450 00:34:11.340 --> 00:34:12.960 He's that guy from the thick of it. 451 00:34:13.019 --> 00:34:14.400 Think of it, yeah. 452 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.260 And he's doing a story with Colin Baker. 453 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:21.059 And then you've got the 2 Masters, which is both of them with Sylvester McCoy. 454 00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:24.780 Oh, I thought you were going to say they were going to have that dude from the TV movie. 455 00:34:24.840 --> 00:34:39.179 Gordon Tipple is interviewed in Doctor Who magazine in the in the March issue of Doctor Who magazine. quite a good interview and they have a shot of him in full makeup and in full costume on the set, which I don't think has ever been seen before. 456 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:41.400 I have to download that. 457 00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:45.300 I haven't been to the app for ages. 458 00:34:45.360 --> 00:34:53.340 It's also got an interview with Eric Roberts, who is actually an, it seems like a quite a humble and down to earth guy and really enjoyed his time. 459 00:34:53.400 --> 00:34:55.559 And Jeffrey Beavers, whenever he talks about Doctor. 460 00:34:55.619 --> 00:35:08.699 We saw him at a convention 2 years ago, I think, when he came out here and it was shortly after Carol and John had died, but he was talking about how he loved doing it even then, but now he's got this afterlife in the show as well. 461 00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:16.860 He always talks about the fact that he wanted to use his own eyes as opposed to the previous Peter Pratt, giggly eyes. 462 00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:18.059 With a goggly eye. 463 00:35:18.119 --> 00:35:21.719 Yeah, well, I think I think that that's the right choice. 464 00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:24.360 That mask with the sausage fingers and stuff. 465 00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:25.800 That's too. 466 00:35:25.860 --> 00:35:27.599 It's too static. 467 00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:32.159 I think the big problem is like painting painting the teeth on his lips. 468 00:35:32.219 --> 00:35:39.000 And to his credit, he tries as much as possible not to move his lips while he's performing because he knows he's got the teeth on there. 469 00:35:39.059 --> 00:35:41.639 I think they've meant to, I thought that just cracked lips. 470 00:35:41.699 --> 00:35:42.360 Cracked lips. 471 00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.619 I always read it that way. 472 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:46.860 I know because you've got the Peter Pratt thing that had the skull teeth. 473 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:53.280 Yeah. which somehow still left him able to pronounce labial consonants. 474 00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:56.159 But whatever, like Skeletor. 475 00:35:56.219 --> 00:35:58.739 So a real description, labial content? 476 00:35:58.800 --> 00:35:59.699 Yeah, you did not know that. 477 00:35:59.760 --> 00:36:00.059 Okay. 478 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:01.980 So he can still pronounce those. 479 00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:15.059 But, yeah, no, I always just assumed that those were his lips, and certainly, because he does that hilarious big scream thing at the end, because he and the doctor meet very, very briefly and then thinks instantly, pretty much, instantly go horribly wrong for him. 480 00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:21.780 And then he does that huge massive giant scream, which is he's such a sport for doing that. 481 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:25.440 And, you know, they're clearly his lips in that. 482 00:36:25.500 --> 00:36:26.219 You know what? 483 00:36:26.280 --> 00:36:27.420 I do think as well. 484 00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:30.480 Bring back master is inspired by Darth Vader. 485 00:36:31.619 --> 00:36:39.659 Because, you know, we've got Star Wars slash A New Hope, which came out in 1977 followed by Empire Strikes Back in 1980. 486 00:36:40.619 --> 00:36:44.820 So here we get the master is throughout the story, like Darth Vader is throughout the 1st film. 487 00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:50.880 But Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker have no interaction in the 1st film. 488 00:36:50.940 --> 00:36:54.900 They have one fight together which hand saves Luke from. 489 00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:05.039 Here, the master and the doctor have one scene together in the same room with the doctor fully aware of who he is. 490 00:37:05.099 --> 00:37:06.960 You know, he's suspected for a little while. 491 00:37:07.019 --> 00:37:08.940 And as you say, Todd, he's a bit slow on the uptake. 492 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:12.719 Even Adrik notices that the readings are the same as the TARDIS before the doctor does. 493 00:37:12.780 --> 00:37:17.099 Which is what I was saying earlier about the fact that Andric, the character. 494 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:22.679 That's a clever thing, whereas next year we're getting like a 12 year old. 495 00:37:22.739 --> 00:37:25.380 Whereas here it's like he's a young man who's maturing. 496 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:26.760 And so he's worked this out. 497 00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:28.559 He's doing these independent things. 498 00:37:28.619 --> 00:37:41.820 Yeah, so I think that that's possibly an influence because when we look at Graham Williams, Graham Williams, of course, tried to emulate Star Wars by having big spaceship shots and really good models. 499 00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:50.579 Whereas I think Doctor Who's kind of realised now, you know, let's let's emulate the classic kind of hero confronts villain. if we're going to have a trilogy. 500 00:37:51.059 --> 00:37:55.920 The hero can win the battle in the 1st episode, but not the war. 501 00:37:55.980 --> 00:37:57.960 And I think that's what happens here. 502 00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:06.900 You know, the doctor frightens the master off, but we do get that horrible ending where he takes over TreeMass, who is a character, you know, we've really come to know and admire over these 4 episodes. 503 00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:15.000 And even that scene where he comes into conflict with the doctor and the doctor gives him that wonderful dressing down of, oh, yeah. 504 00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:23.159 When, when, the source is, when the source has been taken over and trunkens in ruins and everyone's dead, at least you kept your honour intact. 505 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:28.440 Yeah, and that, with lesser actors, that line would have been screamed or shouted. 506 00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:37.679 Like, okay, as much as I love, say, John Pertley and Colin Baker in the role, you know, that would have been a browbeating thumping the desk. 507 00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:40.800 Oh, no, but he over enunciates the word intact. 508 00:38:40.860 --> 00:38:42.420 Yeah, yeah, so wonderfully. 509 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:43.320 It's really good. 510 00:38:43.380 --> 00:38:44.219 That's the thing. 511 00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:44.940 He's so still. 512 00:38:45.059 --> 00:38:46.260 He doesn't raise his voice. 513 00:38:46.380 --> 00:38:50.280 It's just his tone that changes. 514 00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:53.760 And again, Anthony Angley doesn't rail against it. 515 00:38:53.820 --> 00:38:59.340 He just kind of quietly accepts that he does have to break his vow. 516 00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:10.739 And until this moment, everyone else has been breaking vows all around him, and he's trying to keep his honour, but he kind of comes to the realisation of, I have to give up this part of myself. 517 00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:13.440 And maybe that's foreshadowing. don't know. 518 00:39:13.500 --> 00:39:29.519 His terrible line is when he says we're so fortunate to have met you, doctor, at the end, which is just a hugely embarrassing line delivery, but it is foreshadowing what is just a scene like nothing that we've ever seen in Doctor Who before. 519 00:39:29.579 --> 00:39:33.239 So we have the standard, you know, thanks and goodbye. 520 00:39:33.300 --> 00:39:45.239 And there's a really nice moment in the TARDIS between the doctor and Adrik, which I just think is solidifying their relationship, which I, again, I think, adds to my liking of Adrik throughout these 8 episodes. 521 00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:48.300 But then, well, we think the show's over. 522 00:39:48.480 --> 00:39:53.579 And we get a scene back in track and we're talking about cleaning up and all of that sort of thing. 523 00:39:53.639 --> 00:40:04.619 And at the very beginning of that scene, the grandfather clock is visible in the background, but not remarked upon, you actually see it, like at the very start of that shot. 524 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:10.500 And then Trimis, you know, goes up and touches it and we get a new body at last and stuff. 525 00:40:10.559 --> 00:40:17.699 And then the TARNIS dematerialises, and Nissa walks into that shop. 526 00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:19.079 There's no cut. 527 00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:27.659 So the shot from which her father has been abducted just seconds before and turns around and farther where? 528 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:28.079 are you? 529 00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:36.179 So it ends on a question, you know, it's obviously a kind of cliffhanger to lead us into next week. and the reintroduction of the master. 530 00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:38.099 But do you remember it at the time? 531 00:40:38.159 --> 00:40:40.860 I just sort of was so astounded by it. 532 00:40:40.920 --> 00:40:52.320 And I did think at the time, bringing the master back properly having an actor play him rather than him turning up every 5 years looking, you know, a bit gruesome. 533 00:40:52.380 --> 00:40:56.699 I thought it was a great idea, and certainly it's like, oh, my God, what's going to happen now? 534 00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:58.500 I'm with you. 535 00:40:58.559 --> 00:41:01.199 Again, I didn't know anything about the deadly assassin. 536 00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:01.980 Right? 537 00:41:02.039 --> 00:41:06.000 So when the master turns up, it's like a big shock, you know? 538 00:41:06.059 --> 00:41:08.039 And they don't make a big deal about it. 539 00:41:08.099 --> 00:41:10.739 Like, it's not a big continuity thing. 540 00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:13.980 That's just how he looks. he's at the end of his life cycle, you know? 541 00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:26.519 And so because it's been so long, since Roger Delgado, in my head, it's like this mythical character from the past, you know, is coming back. 542 00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:32.460 And so when he does that transformation, as a kid, I thought it was great, now I think it looks crummy. 543 00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:40.980 But the same look and everything, you know, it was sort of like, oh, my goodness, this is just like, he doesn't look at the camera or anything. 544 00:41:41.099 --> 00:41:44.159 Like, you can barely see his new face, do you know what I mean? 545 00:41:44.219 --> 00:41:45.599 Like, there's that stupid transformation. 546 00:41:45.659 --> 00:41:52.679 And then he says the line, you know, a new body at last again, but with, like, he's back to the camera sort of thing. 547 00:41:52.739 --> 00:41:56.280 I think it's sort of hand-fistedly done, you do really want to see him properly. 548 00:41:56.340 --> 00:42:10.619 No, see, I think it's deliberate, and I think it's so clever because the master has spent the whole story using people and then using them to kill one another, to try and get this power, his plan is spoiled. 549 00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:11.519 Does he care? 550 00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:12.719 No, he's got a new body. 551 00:42:12.780 --> 00:42:14.099 He doesn't even care about you, the audience. 552 00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:17.639 He's just going to bugger off and cause mayhem elsewhere. 553 00:42:17.699 --> 00:42:25.320 I do think it's deliberate because John Black, as you say, Todd, he's not the best director, but he is very stylish and he is very stylised. 554 00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:32.519 I think if he'd wanted that to be a big moment of him turning to the camera and saying, look at my new face, we would have had that moment. 555 00:42:32.579 --> 00:42:38.340 No, it's the master breaking the 4th wall in a very soft way and having complete disregard for the audience. 556 00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:39.420 Yeah, you want to see my face? 557 00:42:39.480 --> 00:42:40.440 Come back next week. 558 00:42:40.500 --> 00:42:43.019 And in fact, we don't see it next week. 559 00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:52.139 No, we just see him laughing and when we do finally see him on Legopolis, that is actually quite a good reveal and maybe it was worth waiting for. 560 00:42:52.260 --> 00:42:53.880 It's the homes again thing. 561 00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:55.260 They showing a bit of the monster at a time. 562 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:55.619 Yeah. 563 00:42:55.679 --> 00:42:56.099 Yeah. 564 00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:57.119 You just getting flashes. 565 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:01.559 No, I think it's a conscious goad of the audience. 566 00:43:01.619 --> 00:43:07.440 Well, I'm glad that we've turned Nathan around a bit on this story from what you were wanting to... 567 00:43:07.500 --> 00:43:08.639 I think there are flaws. 568 00:43:08.699 --> 00:43:17.639 I think there are problems with the performance and problems with the direction and I do think there's too many BBC beards and a little bit too much talk about the scien-y stuff. 569 00:43:17.699 --> 00:43:19.019 The moon's terrible. 570 00:43:19.079 --> 00:43:20.519 I like the moon. 571 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:26.159 And I like the sky, but there's a lot going for this. 572 00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:29.760 There's just something about this that it is my favourite of the season. 573 00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:55.860 We, uh, take off from Tranken and not a moment too soon, but we will be back next week for a chain of events that fragment how the universe is held together. 574 00:43:55.980 --> 00:43:59.519 There is only one thing we can do to prevent this, gentlemen. 575 00:43:59.579 --> 00:44:04.559 I'm afraid that all four of us will need to be in full rapport with the podcast. 576 00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:07.860 Richard will be back next week as we talk about Legopolis. 577 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:08.460 Until then. 578 00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:14.699 Please check us out online at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes, FTE podcast on Twitter. 579 00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:20.159 Don't forget Bondfinger.com, Bondfingercast, on Twitter, and Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes. 580 00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:23.099 Until then, may none of your honey have flies trapped in it. 581 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:24.599 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 582 00:44:24.659 --> 00:44:25.440 Good night. 583 00:44:25.500 --> 00:44:26.159 See you soon. 584 00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:36.780 That was Fletcher Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Botterley and Brendan Jones. 585 00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:38.699 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 586 00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:43.079 This episode, Web of Nothing, was recorded on the 20th of March 2016. 587 00:44:43.380 --> 00:44:46.679 The next episode will be released on May 22nd. 588 00:44:46.739 --> 00:44:54.420 If all the stars were silver and the sky, a giant purse in my hand, I'd still discover that the day pole milk or action figure was really expensive. 589 00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.340 The keeper of Tracan. 590 00:45:02.460 --> 00:45:04.440 Sorry, 20th of March. 591 00:45:04.500 --> 00:45:07.440 That's tracking. tracking. 592 00:45:07.860 --> 00:45:13.019 Do you remember that in Gary Downey's Doctor Who cookbook? 593 00:45:13.260 --> 00:45:16.980 Johnny Burns recipe is the kipper of Tracon. 594 00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:17.940 Oh God. 595 00:45:18.000 --> 00:45:24.840 There's even an illustration of a kipper in like in like truck and gowns in front of in front of the source cabinet. 596 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:27.480 That's really, really sad. 597 00:45:28.139 --> 00:45:30.960 I love to have a doctor who cookbook. 598 00:45:31.019 --> 00:45:35.039 What culinary delights await you. 599 00:45:35.099 --> 00:45:43.260 Well, there's a profile on Jackie Lane, which explains she's actually Jocelyn Lane from New York, which is complete bollocks. 600 00:45:43.320 --> 00:45:50.219 He just couldn't find any autobiographical info, like she sent her a recipe to him, but she couldn't find any autobiographical information about her. 601 00:45:50.280 --> 00:45:51.539 So he's like, right, I'll make something up. 602 00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:56.400 Well, you could do that in 1918, whatever. 603 00:45:56.460 --> 00:46:03.360 And then, you know, Lala Ward's recipe is some is rabbit with streaky bacon. 604 00:46:03.420 --> 00:46:07.139 Freshly shot on the estate. 605 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:15.480 Um, Fraser's recipe is some kind of soup with um, with um, darlic crotons. 606 00:46:15.539 --> 00:46:16.860 Brilliant. 607 00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:19.500 Garlic crudons. 608 00:46:21.780 --> 00:46:23.340 All right. 609 00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:24.659 Oh, that's right. 610 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:26.579 Liz Sladon does cauliflower cheese. 611 00:46:26.639 --> 00:46:30.719 So it's the illustration is Sarah Jane sneaking up on a crinoid with the knife and the ball. 612 00:46:34.500 --> 00:46:36.840 It's really awful. 613 00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:39.719 It must be on eBay. 614 00:46:39.780 --> 00:46:40.440 I'm gonna buy it. 615 00:46:42.239 --> 00:46:44.280 Just wait for the clock again. 616 00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:47.760 I thought I'd stop to that clock. 617 00:46:47.820 --> 00:46:49.619 Once again, we wait for roof bar. 618 00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.800 You don't get this kind of excitement on 42 to doomsday, dear listen. 619 00:46:58.860 --> 00:46:59.639 I know, that's right. 620 00:46:59.699 --> 00:47:01.199 Trust you, doctor. 621 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:03.780 20. 622 00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:06.539 I know they're so young, aren't they? 623 00:47:06.599 --> 00:47:06.960 It's crazy. 624 00:47:07.019 --> 00:47:07.619 20. 625 00:47:08.280 --> 00:47:09.719 Yep. 626 00:47:09.780 --> 00:47:12.119 Keon turned 20 yesterday. 627 00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:14.099 Or today his time. 628 00:47:14.219 --> 00:47:15.840 You informed me of this fact. 629 00:47:15.900 --> 00:47:18.480 I changed to blitering from my memory. 630 00:47:18.539 --> 00:47:24.960 Keon doesn't know the struggle of his family wanting to watch Adam's family values rather than the telly movie. 631 00:47:25.019 --> 00:47:27.480 I've got shirts that old.