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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:36:57

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Your Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast for whom the Second Law of Thermodynamics is taking its toll on us.

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Entropy increases.

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The more you put things together, the more they fall apart and never a truer word was spoken about Australian politics in the last 10 years.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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My name is Todd.

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And I beg's not the Edric.

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Since there's 4 of us.

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Hello.

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Well, you do look good in a tule skirt.

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Anissa reference, dear.

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All 4 of us are here together to bid a very fond, possibly overdue farewell for Tom Baker in his...

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He's still alive.

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He won't eat.

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In his swamp song, logo polis, according to the ABC.

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Now, as this is such a big story in the history of Doctor Who, and all four of us are here, decided to format this episode slightly differently.

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So I'll be asking you questions about your reaction.

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And there's also another reason for this, which I'll elaborate on in a few minutes, I'm in charge.

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But I would like to, I would like to actually start with you, Todd.

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Oh.

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Yes, Brendan. feel like I'm at school.

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Now, um, You wouldn't know, dear, this, no, this is a room full of 3 teachers and naughty me.

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The great architect.

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Emphasis on the art.

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Can we talk about Archer?

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Are we doing phrases?

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Todd, on first broadcast.

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What was your emotional reaction to this story?

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Whilst it's been broadcast.

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I've forgotten that the doctor, I've mentioned in previews, the podcast that I sort of worked out that Tom was leaving, although I didn't know and I've forgotten about it.

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So with this, there's a lot of foreshadowing, a lot of lines that sort of indicate that the end is nine.

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But I was in denial of that.

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So emotionally, I was okay, but with a sense of sort of dread, like I was thinking, this is not going to end well.

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Like, and of course that increases.

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And I was obviously excited about Tegan, I think by, you know, by the time she joins, having an Australian on board, I really, really liked that.

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But, um, I was devastated at the end, utterly internally devastated.

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I had tears.

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Absolutely distort.

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And I think that does influence my thoughts on the next doctor because I don't think I ever really got over Tom Leeding for a very long time.

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Right.

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Richard, how about you?

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Same question.

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It's really interesting.

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When these 1st brand, they held us off for a year and we got the adventures of Monkey and Tripper Tucker and Sandy and Pixie and all of that, so it wasn't so bad, but we were really missing Doctor Who.

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And then bang wham in 1982, we had season 18 and 19 back to back.

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So it was less than 24 hours between my 1st impression at the time was one of gross impatience.

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Really wanted them to hurry up because I wanted to see what the new the new guy was like.

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It felt pretty much exactly as it felt this time.

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It was a terrific 1st opener and just like Aunt Vanessa's saggy inner tube.

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It just plodded along for the next three.

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It felt pretty interminable.

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But what a zinger of an episode one.

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It really had me.

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I'd never seen anything like it before on Doctor Who.

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And yet, every little meanie thing in it, right from the copper in front of the police box, as the very first shot, you know, and then the Farris project is, ooh, I wonder if the master's going to be...

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I getting all my bits in first, listener.

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No, that's actually what I was thinking.

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And what surprised, well, I guess the biggest thing, like for Todd, because, you know, I'm the eldest at the table.

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I know you wouldn't know to look at us, but I am.

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Um, it's because this is radio, yeah.

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You get it?

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You get it?

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What can I say?

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Working in TV's age, like an old vibe or?

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Yeah, but I think I was her daughter.

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It's a really good question. to go back because this is how much is of this of Doctor Who is nostalgia, I would say more than 90% of it.

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I wonder how I'm going to feel about the new series and what you're going to say, because it's so recent.

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But for this one, what was amazing is that it's felt exactly the same.

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I had exactly the same reactions.

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I wonder if you did too talk.

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It brings back all those feelings and foreshadowing and sort of not quite to the same extent, obviously, as the 1st time round.

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But it's still there.

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I was still, you know, I was a bit more excited at the end of this, I think, because I wanted to see what, um, beautifully done. what Davidson's going to do.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You know, at Momey in London in 1991, the Museum of the Mutant Moving, in which they had a Doctor Who display, you know?

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Do you remember any of this?

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And hey, this was on a loop.

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If you'd gone there, and there were middle-aged women in tears looking at Tom Baker.

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Tom would probably say it's not an uncommon.

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But yeah, yeah, people were crying standing around it and there's a little fan, but I thought, yeah, I'm with you.

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Yeah, yeah, it was good drama.

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Nathan, what was your reaction?

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Because, of course, you got to meet Tom Baker.

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Whereas Richard didn't.

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That's right.

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I was the watcher all the time.

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I have no memory of recording last week's episode, so I can't remember. and watching that at all.

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So I don't know what my what my reaction was.

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I really liked season 18 on 1st broadcast a lot.

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And I still like it now for the same reasons.

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Am I, I liked your podcast more than the scene, actually walks challenging, and I've got to say, this season you've made it a lot of it more fun.

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I remember it.

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The thing that I identified in our leisure hive episode was that there's a real attempt to be visually interesting.

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And by this time of the season, there's, um, it's a big connected story ever since, um, I guess, full circle, we've been telling one story and Doctor Who hasn't done that since the 60s.

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I think.

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It doesn't even really do that in the 60s, but, you know, the 60s you've got one story bleeding into another.

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So, I think that I found that culmination pretty satisfying.

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And I knew that Tom was leaving and I, we knew that Pete was coming because, you know, it was so many years later that we, that we actually got it.

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Part of the reason I asked this was quite often when we're planning a podcast, and I say to Rod, oh, this weekend we'll be recording a podcast, even though he doesn't listen to the podcast, he says to me, oh, which stories are you doing?

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And I said Megopolis.

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And he said, oh, okay.

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Because he moved to the UK for a few years of 1984.

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So this was shortly before he stopped watching for a while because he was going out partying and things.

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But I, I just kind of said, what was your reaction to Megopolis?

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Because, you know, he was about 22 at the time and he's like, But he didn't know that Tom was leaving.

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For a start.

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But he said something very interesting because he he's not a fan in the way that we are fans, you know.

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He also doesn't listen to the podcast.

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Yes, indeed.

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Well, he's just a very visual person.

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Like, he can't do the audios, but he loves the recons, which I know you're the complete opposite, Richard, but we won't change that right now.

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But what he said was...

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He wasn't sad at all because and this is possibly because he's not a huge fan.

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He never views the regeneration as a death of the character.

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He just views it as we're getting a new version of the character.

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Like he doesn't understand people getting upset about the doctor leaving.

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Yeah, but that's a standard casual viewers reference though, isn't it?

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They're not going to get feelings emotional.

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I think that we've talked about this because I always get upset when the companions leave, but not when the doctor regenerates.

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Like, of course, you've got a black heart.

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I was I'm still inconsolable about Martha and don't get me started about Barbara and...

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No, I'm sure she's still in the target.

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There's some notty tendrils in a bit recording. be played by Stephanie Cole.

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Oh, wish.

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The only regeneration that I really got upset at.

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I agree.

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I mean, always so sad at John's and was quite being younger. but I don't know whether I was as teary. was sort of like, because I think I'd seen Tom already.

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Like, I think I've discussed this.

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I could never remember which one I'd seen first, but I know that Tom was coming, so I wasn't quite the same, whereas with this, I didn't know who was coming.

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I didn't know the certainty was leaving.

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It's like, you know, Sarah leaving or whatever, like that.

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I mean, this is our 1st proper regeneration, really, isn't it?

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It is for me.

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I started watching Doctor Who in 1978.

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Um, you know, I saw repeats of per twee stories.

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So, but they were the only 2 doctors I'd seen, but all the time I'd been watching it had been Tom.

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So it's the 1st regeneration I experienced.

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Was it your 1st brand?

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Well, that's that's the other reason I asked this question because I came to Doctor Who in, Well, no, before 1988, because that had all these off-air recordings, but that means it's kind of like that scene at the end of Star Trek 2 where they say of Spock, he's not dead so long as we remember him.

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Because that's the thing.

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I would just dip in and out of Doctor Who.

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You know, I could watch the mind of evil, then robot, then Legopolis, but then double back to the robot operation.

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Regenerations have never quite had that same effect on me.

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They don't upset me.

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I get caught up in the emotion and, you know, yes, I cry during John's regeneration, during Tom's regeneration and the new series ones.

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It's it's more...

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The reaction to an emotional performance and direction, especially music.

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The music in this one.

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Nicely pointed out.

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Patty Kingsland really pulls it off.

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Well, we're on episode 4 with that before we've gone to episode one.

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Oh, no, but I just wanted to...

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I just wanted to start with a bang.

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Well, to finish off your bang for you.

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I don't have to say, I'm the only one at the table that this is my 2nd life too.

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Well, 1st generation, because I started watching in 74, 75 properly.

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So yeah, I did see the perfectly on the 1st broadcast.

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And it was extraordinary.

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But for a child of 7 or 8.

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What was, and that's the perfect age to start watching Doctor Who. you ask any of the, be it big name fans?

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say, you know, seven, eight, nine.

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They all got into it.

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And I think it's because you're most emotionally open and, I mean, if you want to say vulnerable of these kinds of characters and driven stories.

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That's another thing.

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This is a character driven story because you can't find a plot in this one.

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But it was the moodiness of the story that was actually more powerful for me in spiders than the actual regeneration.

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Or you could say they, or you could say they dovetailed beautifully.

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And the moodiness and the atmosphere and John Durth's performance and all the rest of it.

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And I really want Liz's performance in that final scene.

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And Liz is extraordinary.

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In fact, everyone's pretty damn good in that.

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There's maybe one or two, but, you know, and I and I reckon that maybe Lett's had a bigger hand in this than the law states because it had a very similar feeling.

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There's the windswept use of a lot of outside broadcast.

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There's a lot of long distance shots.

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There's a lot of bleakness, there's a lot of overexposure in the camera, and maybe that's just England on a bright day, but that white gray sky is everywhere, the white gray face of Tom perfectly reflects it, white gray hair, he's white gray, disinterested in what's going on.

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He's kind of a walking cadaver from episode one.

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Really?

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I really feel, yeah, and it felt, and it felt like a pain into mourning.

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It was very, that Lala's words keep coming back.

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Romana's words, do you have a death wish?

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It's a great line back in state of decay, is it?

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Warriors Gate.

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Warriors Gate.

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Well, yeah, she should know because, you know, they just got married.

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But yeah, that's that. isn't there?

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I really felt this was as as poignant as spiders was.

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Okay, so my next question, I'll start with you, Nathan.

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In terms of changing of the guard and changing of the doctor.

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John Nathan Turner was very sensitive to the fact that with so much having changed in the program, this other massive change could have driven away long-term viewers.

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So he was determined that there would be as much continuity as possible going over the regeneration.

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So he did approach Elizabeth Sladen to return as Sarah Jane Smith and also Louise Jameson to return as Leila, possibly just for the 3 stories bridging the regeneration, both of them said, no, we're not coming back.

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So he had Matthew Waterhouse, the new character of Tegan or Joe Vanka, who Christopher Bidney misunderstood who named her Tegan Joe Vanka.

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And...

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Such a wanker.

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Sorry.

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I'm channelling Janet.

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And that was also part of the reason he decided to bring back Sarah Sutton, which meant that they had to keep paying Johnny Byrne for the use of her character.

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He thought, if I can't have a recognisable face from a few years ago that long-term fans will note, I will have more characters for the audience to get familiar with.

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So my question to you, Nathan is.

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We have the return of NISA, the continuation of Adric, and Tegan coming in as well.

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What do you think of this dynamic of these 3 young companions?

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Well, I just think they're terrible, actually.

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Like, I don't think anyone of them puts in a good performance.

204
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Maybe Sarah Sutton's all right in this story, but, um, But, you know, our drink is Andrew, and those scenes with Andrew and Tom are actually quite nice, you know, they're interminable.

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I mean, there's lots of sort of standing around in the TARDIS.

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This approach to the regeneration where you give people familiar things in order to ease the transition, I think, is a really good one.

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And when John leaves and Tom comes, Tom gets to do a John Pertuy story, you know, as his 1st story and he's the new thing in it.

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And I think we said that that kind of backfired a bit because he's so much more interesting than anyone else in it than the premise and everything.

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So he kind of makes having John Pertuis style stories sort of more or less completely impossible just from the 1st story.

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Here, what happens is happening in reverse, where the Peter Davison era is being assembled around Tom and Tom is being frozen out.

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And, you know, your comment, Richard, about him being cadaverous.

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I actually quite like this sort of lugubrious, distant Tom.

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I think that's a good take on the character.

214
00:15:53.340 --> 00:16:02.519
So I think it works for him in that his time on the show is over and his whole era is just being deconstructed around him.

215
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.799
He's lost Romana, he's lost canine.

216
00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:08.580
There's all these why are all these young people in my TARDIS, you know?

217
00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:18.120
But I think the era that replaces this isn't a great one and and so we are losing something that is... don't know that when we're watching.

218
00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:19.200
No, that's true.

219
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:20.519
Well, what did you feel?

220
00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:25.799
Well, it's memory cheats, but we were, no one had bubble memory in 1980.

221
00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:27.600
Bubble memory.

222
00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:28.440
It's just flash.

223
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:30.960
It's like it's like flash memory.

224
00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:32.220
It was such an exciting thing.

225
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.379
It had to be, it had to be mentioned.

226
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.080
Was it really a real term?

227
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.159
It was a massive, massive problem.

228
00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:42.480
Computers didn't have backup, at least home computers didn't, so you had to put it on a cassette.

229
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:46.139
You have to give the cathedral on the cassette to remember what you'd worked on that, though.

230
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:51.840
But it's just it's just the memory that the storage in our iPhones are now, MacBooks and our USB drives.

231
00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:53.159
Other phones are.

232
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:54.419
I just saw another...

233
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.159
I just thought it was another big mean little one.

234
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.960
Well, it is that too. magical term that's going to make it sound more scientific.

235
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:03.899
When science is more fun than plot.

236
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:06.180
Allegedly.

237
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.640
But you were what were we on about this?

238
00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:16.559
We're about the companions and what you think of that dynamic and that sort of thing. should be fabulous. 12, don't you think?

239
00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:19.440
I mean, we're back to 1960 and we've got a full crew.

240
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:20.579
We aren't.

241
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:21.960
I don't think we are.

242
00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:28.740
And the reason is that Barbara and Ian are recognisable characters and then Susan for the doctor's granddaughter.

243
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:35.279
We have sort of 3 high concept people who have no particular relationship.

244
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.039
Yeah, who are wearing the same clothes every week.

245
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:44.099
Um, you know, and who aren't putting in good performances, really.

246
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.940
The best performer is Sarah Sutton, and she's the one most frequently sidelined.

247
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:51.720
And yeah, I agree, and she shouldn't be because she's the best actor, mostly.

248
00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:55.619
I guess I have a slightly different take on it than what you guys have.

249
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.099
I think this is Matthew Waterhouse's best performance adopt 2.

250
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.940
And I also think that the character of Patrick is written the best in this story.

251
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:10.619
And it's just so, I mentioned last week that, you know, I thought that Adrick was good in keeper of Truck, and Matthew was improving it.

252
00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.200
And I think here his whole dynamic with Truck was really, really good.

253
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:16.079
And you have had him in for 20 episodes.

254
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:17.819
Therefore, he's an identifiable figure.

255
00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:21.240
Mister, of course, I always think that Sarah Sutton does a pretty good job.

256
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:24.599
I mean, her experience as an actress, but she's often sidelined.

257
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:26.640
At this point, you know, she comes halfway in the story.

258
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:44.400
But it is a case, I think, of Don Nathan Turner's said we're bringing back the master, Bid Meats, put him in truck, and so therefore, you know, because the master is suddenly her dead father, you to up the emotional stakes, he needs to bring her into the story without missa.

259
00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:52.019
If you take this around the plot of what there is, there's suddenly a lot less, like if you just get rid of that stuff, what's going to replace it, you know?

260
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:57.900
I do think, though, that her reaction to the death of her father and then the destruction of her planet.

261
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:03.839
You know, she gets a line and she gets a little acting moment, but then she's sort of quite jolly after that.

262
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:14.039
That's that's the crap thing about the 80s is that it Bidmead said when Loud Award said this is a terrible write-off, both for John Leeson.

263
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:15.059
And myself.

264
00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:17.460
And he said, it's not a soap opera, my dear.

265
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:19.859
And it's wishing your career is dead, mate.

266
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.579
And I, and you noticed that he didn't have much.

267
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.539
I don't cross slower.

268
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.940
I mean, I take the plan.

269
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:27.960
The same thing's happening here.

270
00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:29.279
It should be more of a soap.

271
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.599
I want to see human reaction and it felt awful and weird at the time.

272
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:35.279
We just didn't really get the words for it.

273
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.500
Were you feeling it back then when you were watching it?

274
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.099
The tracking thing is really hard because I was absolutely devastated by that.

275
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:47.339
That really, really set me after Lubic became keeper and I really wanted to see that world survive.

276
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.039
And it just, that was just devastating, right?

277
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:56.519
And to see all that happen as a plot device, just to, yeah, as a as a clique. yeah.

278
00:19:56.579 --> 00:20:02.819
You know, I think Sarah sells it as much as she can, but she can only do with what's written in front of her because there's so much going on.

279
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:11.819
I mean, it really should be about, I really should be about Tom, but in fact, you're trying to introduce her into the cast full time. then you've got the whole tank and thing.

280
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.559
You got to introduce a whole new companion.

281
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:14.759
I'm our story of a doctor.

282
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:21.660
And I think it does sum up the 80s, really, where you suddenly have this huge cast changeover, like within, I mean, it'll happen with Peter as well.

283
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:29.519
Like, within, like, all the stories ramping up to the end of the doctor and it's sort of like, we need stability, not this constant quickly, we've got to write people out.

284
00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:36.539
I think it takes away from the time that should be Tom's time, although I think, you know, I think his performance is fantastic.

285
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:38.220
It's subtle isn't it?

286
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:38.700
Yeah.

287
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:46.140
I guess the thing with Tegan, I was really excited, the fact that it was going to be an Australian on board and I thought she was like gun ho and dynamic.

288
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:49.140
Looking back at it now and certainly I'm watching a bit ahead.

289
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.140
I think that Janet's performance is very broad.

290
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.420
Yeah, it's really panto.

291
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.140
It's not good.

292
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.740
And I like her a lot and I like Tegan, by the way.

293
00:20:58.799 --> 00:20:59.700
She works it out.

294
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:01.559
She works it out next season, I think after.

295
00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:06.539
Actually, I think it's when Tegans would be drunk in Black Awkward and she's...

296
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:08.640
No, she's really funny enlightened and everything.

297
00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:19.740
And after that, I think Janet works out how to balance being, you know, mouth on legs, angry, not wanting to do things, wanting to leave much better when she's presented this within a script.

298
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.880
But, you know, here she's having to deal with the fact that Tom is leaving, right?

299
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.799
Who's coming in to replace him?

300
00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:33.180
And all the others. whether, you know, it's much of an impact or not, have worked with each other in the previous story.

301
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:34.019
I don't know.

302
00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:35.940
So there is some sort of chemistry.

303
00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:36.960
She's got a lot to deal with.

304
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:51.359
Yeah, one I found so interesting about these, these multiple characters is the 1st episode is kind of all about Tom and Adrick together and they do have their lovely little scenes and Matthew Waterhouse.

305
00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:52.920
I think I agree with you, Tom.

306
00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:54.960
This is certainly one of his best performances.

307
00:21:55.019 --> 00:21:57.480
The 2nd episode is all about Tegan.

308
00:21:57.539 --> 00:22:03.180
Because, you know, she wanders into the TARDIS in the 1st episode, but doesn't then interact with the plot until episode two.

309
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:20.519
Then the 3rd episode is all about Nissa, and Nissa discovering what's happened to her father, and it's, oh, it's so short-sighted, the spoiler alert deal listeners, Anthony Ainley and Sarah Sutton gets so few scenes together after this story, because they...

310
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.700
They were really great together as Tree Mass and Nissa.

311
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:24.599
Yes, yes.

312
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:28.440
And they're completely different together as the master and Nissa.

313
00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:31.319
And there's a change in his performance, of course.

314
00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:33.059
But there is a change in her performance too.

315
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:37.019
And for me, those 2 in episode 3 are the highlight of the episode.

316
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:43.019
And I agree with you, Nathan, that the whole thing of, you know, my planet's dead now.

317
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.039
It's a great moment at the time, but nothing really happens afterwards.

318
00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:51.059
But the scene where she walks up to him saying, you killed my father.

319
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:59.759
I think Sarah Sutton has really cottoned onto the fact that, you know, she comes from a culture where there is no, there is no violence and there is no avarice and greed.

320
00:22:59.819 --> 00:23:01.500
All frog and no gun.

321
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:03.960
All frog and no guns. might have said, yeah.

322
00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:11.400
I see on her face that she's trying to process this strange emotion, this rage and grief and fear.

323
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:17.819
And then we get this wonderful moment from Tom where he's agreeing to work with the master.

324
00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:19.799
And I think this is a conscious thing.

325
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.859
You've got the 3 young companions saying, oh, but you can't do that.

326
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.500
You know, so they're like the new guards saying, you can't do that.

327
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.200
He just turns around and rips them all, a new one.

328
00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:30.299
You don't tell me what to do.

329
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:32.460
I'm going to go save the universe.

330
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:32.880
Shut up.

331
00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:34.440
Shut up.

332
00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:35.759
So true.

333
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:37.500
But that being said, I think...

334
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:46.319
The 3 companions here are better balanced and are each given something to do a bit more than will happen next year.

335
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.779
I think that I think that's the thing.

336
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.380
I think in this script they have that balance.

337
00:23:52.440 --> 00:24:00.420
And I do think that they really struggle next year to get that and I think that is, you know, people get put to sleep for 4 episodes.

338
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.319
You know?

339
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:03.059
You know what I'm saying.

340
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.099
It's just a viewer.

341
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:05.759
Exactly.

342
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.279
You really don't want to...

343
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:15.180
But Sarah's something I think is really good in the fact that she hangs on to that finger, even in Kestravalba in time flight.

344
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:22.079
Like she, she, there's this little subtle things when she's with Anthony Ainley or the milker or whatever, where it just comes to the floor.

345
00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:26.759
Because you don't get that from Tegan, and Tegan loses her.

346
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:38.460
Auntie Vanessa. you know, in at the end of the 1st episode and she has a bit of a reaction to it, but then she's wandering around doing sort of ludicrous panto recriminations.

347
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.119
Were you just doing the accent?

348
00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:56.039
It's interesting because as this is the 1st time that we were saying that a companion has ever discovered, what she thought was a police box and turns out to be the time since Dodo chat was.

349
00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:56.460
Yes.

350
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:00.420
And that's not the only parallel with this story.

351
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:04.079
I really do think that Janet is played by Jackie Lane for this episode.

352
00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.900
The voice accents the whole...

353
00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:07.859
Why are you promoting?

354
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:08.880
is the JNT thing.

355
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:13.980
Doctor Who is not, sorry, a socialist principle, it's not a democracy, talent will up.

356
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:20.160
You've got someone who's, does anyone else remember the Moon Stallion or Alice, the other Sarah's other things?

357
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.319
I've never ever seen them.

358
00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:23.279
I think I was just too young.

359
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:24.059
I saw them.

360
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:25.319
I remember them and they were amazing.

361
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.359
Sarah was extraordinary, sudden.

362
00:25:27.420 --> 00:25:28.920
It was extraordinary in these stallions.

363
00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:30.059
Well, my all time.

364
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.220
Gary Russell, so it says the same thing.

365
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.460
Children of the Stones, he really likes, and Moonstone.

366
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:36.420
We both really like it.

367
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.420
Also had David Hague, Pango from the leisure hide in it.

368
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:40.619
It was beautifully done.

369
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:42.240
She's extraordinary.

370
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:48.720
And she's had a lot of experience, but she's at the back, and you've got someone who's done drama school and got a few little bits and pieces.

371
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.680
Janet gets a hell of a lot better, and I agree with Todd.

372
00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:54.480
It's when she discovers alcoholism.

373
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.220
Just as it ate in terms before.

374
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.619
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

375
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.940
She does get better, but gee, we've got to really sog it out before she gets there.

376
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:13.259
And Sarah's, if you're saying, this has been given very little, given a huge amount to do in, and you're done.

377
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:15.000
You try and do it.

378
00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:15.960
I think it was impossible.

379
00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:19.440
Yeah, it's like a whole new relaunch.

380
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:22.019
It is, though, series, yeah.

381
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.660
So, Richard is.

382
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:26.700
Does the plot make sense?

383
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:27.960
What plot?

384
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.359
What plot?

385
00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:32.039
I mean, I was a techie science nerd.

386
00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:41.700
My cousin's in Canberra, my uncle by marriage, was one of the guys in the 50s who built the 1st computer in Australia, which was called Univac or something.

387
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:48.420
I think it's a Dyson now, but, you know, it was a whole room full of valves, you know, wheeze like Billy Hartnell used to say.

388
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.960
Yeah, yeah.

389
00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:52.859
So we had all this stuff to play with right at the time.

390
00:26:52.920 --> 00:27:00.000
Those boys, my cousins 18 months older than me, absolutely adored this story because of all the techie stuff and bubble memory.

391
00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:04.920
Every nerd in the room was a little gasm when you got immediate tech mentioned.

392
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:08.640
So Bitney did know his audience, but it wasn't the whole audience.

393
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:10.799
It was his middle mates.

394
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:12.779
And it's, that's not just bid me.

395
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:14.940
That is something that is going to happen to the show.

396
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.000
It's going to turn into cult TV for a niche.

397
00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:21.180
Isn't that a terrible expression to cult to you?

398
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:21.900
Yeah, yeah.

399
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:29.220
Whereas it used to be, and when Russell brings it back, it will be again a family program that everyone sits in.

400
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.500
Good, well-made television.

401
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.700
See, I've always had an objection to the term cult TV.

402
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.039
The label of cult TV.

403
00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:42.119
It's not applied by fans of the show.

404
00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:48.059
It's applied from the outside and it's a way to say, this is a TV show that people care too much about.

405
00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:52.140
It's terrible, but people like it inexplicably.

406
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:53.279
Yeah, yeah.

407
00:27:53.339 --> 00:28:00.480
And it just reminds me of something Simon Pegg said, which he was talking about being a geek and being bullied for it.

408
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:15.779
And I won't get the exact words, but the thing is, the reason that people bully geeks and nerds is that geeks and nerds have a passion and a drive and a love for something, and people who bully them can't understand what that love is and they're jealous of it.

409
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:17.160
But they have sport ball.

410
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:19.680
Yeah. sports ball.

411
00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:21.240
They do.

412
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:25.559
And they don't see that that's this is just a higher functioning form of the same thing.

413
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.500
Or to get a bit to get a bit sweary.

414
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:33.240
Someone at a convention with John Barrowman got up and said, oh, I'd like to ask a question.

415
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:34.440
I'm sorry, it's a bit nerdy.

416
00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:36.660
And John said, before you ask you a question, I'm going to stop you.

417
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.599
Do not apologise for being nerdy.

418
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:43.019
People who aren't nerds don't apologise for being assholes.

419
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:46.079
That's part that's part of the tension.

420
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:53.880
Because I'm not sure that Doctor Who gets inaccessible at this point, but I think what happened...

421
00:28:53.940 --> 00:29:08.339
I think what happens is that In some respects, Doctor Who gets a bit more mature and a bit more highbrow and people who expect it just to be men in rubber suits and egg cartons kind of go, oh, yes, you just get back down in your box.

422
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:21.240
I think certainly partially the shift in the show, the scientification as bid meat puts it, is responsible, but I think it's also people thinking that it shouldn't get ideas, quote unquote, above its station.

423
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:38.940
But when I say that the show turns into cult TV from this point, what I need is, and I'm probably being too cynical, that it's just not very good, but the people making it think that there is a built-in audience who will watch it anyway, and that's the audience that they're aiming for.

424
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.819
They're not looking beyond.

425
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.779
They're not looking at creating a show with broad appeal.

426
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:51.119
Um, You know, like Doctor Who is nerdy when it comes back in 2005.

427
00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:52.920
It's terribly geeky.

428
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:57.299
It's but it's aware that it isn't entitled to a big audience.

429
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.299
People aren't going to tune into it just because it's on.

430
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:05.099
And so they go out of their way to make something that's appealing and interesting and well made.

431
00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:07.440
But I don't see that happening in the 80s.

432
00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:11.640
And whether that's kind of cynicism or just incompetence, I'm not sure.

433
00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:14.519
But I think that's what I mean by cult TV.

434
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:20.579
Yeah, these people will just watch it because it's got the diamond logo on it.

435
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.900
It doesn't have a diamond logo on it, but, you know, you're both saying the same thing though.

436
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:32.279
This is, and I think Doctor Who is always, we've talked about this as well, always spoken of, the wider realm of what's going on.

437
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:37.019
At the moment, it's talking about acadine, what's going on at the universities with post-modern theory.

438
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.539
You can just sum it up as in, it looks back at itself.

439
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:41.099
It's self-referential.

440
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:57.059
And it's not reconing, it's just, although it is in this story, but it's, it's just, it's very self-conscious, or it's begin to get that sense of looking back at its own beginnings and analysing itself in a very academic, You know, it's as if we've all gone from primary school.

441
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:00.480
We've gone through high school and now we're at 1st year undergrad.

442
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:02.279
It feels like an undergrad thing.

443
00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:05.460
I think the influence of Douglas Adams is still quite strong there, but just moved on.

444
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:14.339
I mean, you said something, Todd, about the show, not having anything for new kids who are coming along to watch it.

445
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:17.279
Yeah, like I've mentioned that before.

446
00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:22.440
Like, it's getting very self-referential, like even in this, like with Romana and all that sort of stuff.

447
00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:24.000
But I know where you're going with this.

448
00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:27.900
The young audience, the 789s aren't, this is we're going to stick with the show.

449
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.680
Like we're aiming at it, you know, the 19, 20 year olds at this point.

450
00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:32.759
And that's a problem.

451
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:38.099
You know, you're not getting the next generation coming through and this season has reaped the rewards of that.

452
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:38.700
Yeah.

453
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:40.680
I mean, I still think it's good in season 18.

454
00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:46.319
And I still think that Doctor Who can help itself to entropy as a theme.

455
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:47.640
You know what I mean?

456
00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:52.380
It might be a new word to some people, but the idea is just well explained.

457
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:59.460
And it's well explained, actually, by having Episode one where 2 vehicles are malfunctioning.

458
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:05.759
So you've got Tegan and Auntie Vanessa in the car, that's what you're going to say, Tegan and Auntie Vanessa.

459
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:11.819
And the doctor and Adrik. and the doctor explains it beautifully in that scene in the cloister. room.

460
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:13.619
So that's not making it inaccessible.

461
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.940
And it's, okay, it's sort of science fiction, it should sort of have ideas.

462
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.960
So I don't think the rot set in yet, but it is going to.

463
00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:28.500
I think, uh, did mean to exit from the show... is not a good thing.

464
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.019
No, I really think that's too fast.

465
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:41.279
He needed to do another season, like to see in a new doctor. you know, all these characters that he's been forced to introduce to sort of craft them and guide them and steer them and that, well, he's not there to do it.

466
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:43.680
Quite frankly, it does fall apart.

467
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.440
I think it also gets less visually ambitious as well.

468
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:48.240
Now this is the show that we're making.

469
00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:52.380
You know, they're not making a statement about how the show can look interesting.

470
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:57.660
And I think here, I think there are bits of Lagopolos that look just terrible.

471
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.500
Like really, really bad, worse than the 60s.

472
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:09.180
That planet, you know, like you can virtually see, you know, stage hands fingerprints all over the kind of backdrop and stuff.

473
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.799
The sky is like 2 metres away.

474
00:33:10.859 --> 00:33:12.119
You know, the web planet?

475
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:16.200
It is actually Doctor Who's version of Barbarilla's Labyrinth.

476
00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:23.519
Even with the way that the look of, a little bit of logopolitans, logo police, as my iPhone transcribes, the wiggles.

477
00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:28.079
The way they fade out is just the same way that the ground grotesques die in the labyrinth.

478
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:29.099
They just go invisible.

479
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.420
And they look, it's actually the same costume.

480
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:36.359
But there's also that wonderful shot of when the master goes through those doors and everything's just painted.

481
00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:38.579
I'm just thinking, are you for real?

482
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:39.660
Like how cheap is this?

483
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:45.059
But on the pip side is you've got all that stuff inside the tarnis when they go inside each of the tarnis with the light.

484
00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:46.440
It feels really dark.

485
00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:47.700
And I really love that.

486
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:52.140
I love that inside the last TARDIS is the outside world.

487
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:55.380
Like Tom goes into the TARDIS and he's outside.

488
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.680
So the whole world is in the in the in the middle one.

489
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:00.180
It was terrifically good.

490
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.740
I will make it like that.

491
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:13.019
I mean, what I find amazing about the story is it's full of sequences of events that deconstruct the Tom Baker era.

492
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:21.360
So, for instance, in the doctor's whole thing here is, you know, he suspects the master's atlas again.

493
00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:23.820
So he wants to get the TARDIS fixed.

494
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:29.219
So we're gonna be getting rid of the police box, which would become a common JNT thing when he wanted a bit of publicity.

495
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.559
You know, he'd say we're going to change the police box.

496
00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:40.559
So 1st of all, there's that threat, which actually arose because there was still a police box standing on this area of highway.

497
00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:44.639
But by the time they got there to film, it had fallen into disrepair and been removed.

498
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:56.820
So they had to use the season 17 police box sitting by the side of the road instead that doesn't explain, however, why there's a sign saying, please take your litter with you with a bin sitting under it.

499
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.400
Anyway, what's with that?

500
00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:12.599
A man is the sum of his memories. also, and I think with this story, like the whole thing as a whole, well, doesn't make a lot of sense, but there's some really nice little set pieces, but even some of them are really quite ridiculous.

501
00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:23.099
Let's flush the master out of the TARDIS by dropping out of the sky into a river and just then having the whole TARDIS fill with water so that he can just be trapped in his TARDIS.

502
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:23.639
I don't know.

503
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:25.980
Like at the time I thought, this is wonderful.

504
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:30.539
Yeah, it was a startling thing, but I also thought that the doctor's gone mad.

505
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:36.599
And when he says it's, we share the same mind in many ways.

506
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:37.619
It's the same mind.

507
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.139
Ah, yeah, be careful who your friends are.

508
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.179
Yes, it's...

509
00:35:42.179 --> 00:35:44.639
That whole time monster thing was lovely too.

510
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:45.480
Is that, is it?

511
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.559
No, no, no, no.

512
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:50.039
It's the way the tartars are inside tartars, which is the most exciting thing.

513
00:35:50.099 --> 00:35:51.179
I'd forgotten at the time.

514
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:52.619
Yeah, we've had this in the time monster.

515
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:58.500
I mean, then again, we've got Kronos the Kronavore playing Janet Fielding. really exciting.

516
00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:09.119
Friend of the podcast, Blaine William Traynor, who's a friend of ours in Edinburgh Sculpts, one, Scotland, Scotland, yes.

517
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.460
He's a graphic designer.

518
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:24.000
And once on Twitter, he took some screen grabs of Christopher H bid me, being interviewed on documentaries and gave them captions like, science, yes, we're sciencing up the show.

519
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:27.840
Lots of science-y stuff, like materialising guitars and opening it underwater.

520
00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:29.159
My middle name is Hamilton.

521
00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:30.659
Make sure that gets on the title card.

522
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.820
And put it out on Twitter.

523
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.579
Christopher Hamilton did me responded.

524
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.300
Oh, with pictures.

525
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:40.500
Pick pictures.

526
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:46.980
And the thing is, though, Christopher's response. to that criticism about materialising times underwater.

527
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:48.360
He didn't attempt to justify it.

528
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:52.380
What he said was, and again, accompanied as captions with pictures.

529
00:36:52.739 --> 00:37:02.579
The thing about people criticising Legopolis is that people are assuming they're much smarter than the doctor, which is not a very smart thing indeed.

530
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:09.780
I kind of looked at that and thought, okay, Chris, you're picking yourself up there a bit, but at the same time, it's hard to argue.

531
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:14.940
Well, but what he really means is people are assuming they're smarter than me.

532
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.920
Yes, he's doing that.

533
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:17.400
Yes.

534
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:26.639
That's the thing, like, Blade put that out on Twitter and I retweeted it, and about 2 hours later, he sort of sent me a direct message saying, oh, expleted.

535
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:29.099
Check out Bit means Twitter.

536
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:34.139
And you should follow Chris forbid me on Twitter at CHB.

537
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.119
Sorry, at CHB, I should say.

538
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:40.199
Going back to what I was saying and that's because there's all these little set pieces.

539
00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:44.940
Like, but you have things like, for example, Nisa, the doctor receives a message from Tron.

540
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.119
Like he's never been beamed a messaged by other people before.

541
00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:50.820
Like it just suddenly, in this story, it happens.

542
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.619
I'm getting much better at these short stops.

543
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:55.079
Well, that's another convenient little thing that's happening.

544
00:37:55.139 --> 00:38:02.400
Then he has to obviously talk to the watcher and the watcher has to mysteriously never explain how he gets to track and does he have his own TARDIS?

545
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:13.199
Why does this foreshadowing creature have his own space time transport and then, you know, and then so Nissa just turns up and says with a line explanation that she came with him.

546
00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.440
But, you know, it felt pretty flat at the time.

547
00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:17.699
Do you know, I love that.

548
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.440
I absolutely adore that.

549
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:21.059
I don't want an explanation.

550
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:21.780
It's magic.

551
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:28.980
Yeah, because this is so important to the story, weird narrative things are happening around it.

552
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.260
You don't want Bid Beans explanation?

553
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:32.579
No, really?

554
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:34.860
I want to see, see it.

555
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:39.539
But the fact that bit means always going about like, you know, getting rid of the magic, but that is magic.

556
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:41.280
Well, but he doesn't get rid of the magic.

557
00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:44.340
I said to you before that I think of Bidmead is a terrible critic.

558
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:54.780
In fact, the way that Legopolis works is magic, like saying words and intoning things and having physical objects created as a result, that's magic.

559
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:59.639
And Legopolis works because it's a symbolic analogue of a computer.

560
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:04.380
You know, it has registers, it has a monitor, it has memory blocks.

561
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:07.619
I think it's an 8 bit computer, so it's not very advanced.

562
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:09.719
It plays chip tunes.

563
00:39:10.019 --> 00:39:12.239
But it's literally a computer.

564
00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:21.900
It's an analogue of a computer and magic is symbols of things having effects on the things themselves, you know, and all throughout the season.

565
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:23.820
Warriors gay, it works this way.

566
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.159
Time we've been Meglos works this way.

567
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:31.139
Season 18 is absolutely full of magic, fuller than it's ever been.

568
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:45.059
And because it's scientific things that are being symbolised or modelled, you know, Bidmead makes the mistake of thinking that he's bringing science into the program, but he's just bringing a sort of science flavoured magic into it.

569
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.219
And I have absolutely no objection to that.

570
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.179
I think it's wonderful.

571
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:52.380
I'd like to share my favourite bit of techno babble from this story.

572
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:53.519
I mean, there's a lot to choose from.

573
00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:57.360
There's sonic projectors which create a temporary zone of stasis.

574
00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:01.380
The doctor asks Adrik to fold back the Omiger configurations.

575
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:10.320
But my favourite piece, and because it comes from Anthony Ainley, and because the way he reads it, it's very clear he has no idea what he's saying, but he's going to make it sound as important as possible.

576
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:16.739
We should reconfigure our 2 TARTuses into time cone inverters.

577
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:24.599
That way we can create a stable, safe zone by applying temporal inversion isometry to have much of space time as we can isolate.

578
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:30.960
Because the time monster was just so good.

579
00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:42.599
But the thing is, he's kind of got the whole barrel read thing that we'll see next year in Earth Shock. in the, yeah, it's clear he doesn't have a clue what he's saying, but he understands the energy of the scene.

580
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:52.320
And, you know, I think something we said last week is that Anthony only starts very strong and most of his performances just go downhill after keeper of Trunk.

581
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.300
And he's, I think he's still quite strong here.

582
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:55.139
What do you chaps think?

583
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:56.340
I'm with Todd on this.

584
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:57.960
Go on.

585
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.699
Well, I mean, this is what you've been saying this season.

586
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:03.000
Go on.

587
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:06.780
My feeling is that it's still a good performance.

588
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.900
I think I just hate the costume, because she just really gets to me.

589
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:10.800
I'm with you on that.

590
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:16.079
And it's one of these things that the more you see of him. da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

591
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:21.840
Yes, the more you see it, yes.

592
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:29.099
Like as he goes along, then you look back at those 1st performances and you see the more dodgier bits, all the more hemier bits.

593
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:32.400
And that affects my judgement of it.

594
00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:35.280
I still actually think he's, I don't have a problem with his brother.

595
00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:37.320
As Trimus, he's superb.

596
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.300
And yeah, no, he is.

597
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.300
And as the early master seems, he's terrific.

598
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:44.579
I think maybe it's just a case of too much fraud.

599
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:45.659
I'm not saying he's great.

600
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:48.900
I think the whole character is misconceived.

601
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.900
And it's wrong and Russell gets it wrong.

602
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.699
Maybe that's why Ching Mess is good in the Masters.

603
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:59.820
So the master is a guy in a black suit with a goatee as far as JNT is concerned.

604
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.340
That's the character concept and his evil.

605
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:03.239
Agreed.

606
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:04.679
I wish it had been Beryl Reed.

607
00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:06.780
That would have been great.

608
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.260
The mask tends to be the doctor's opposite, you know, and that's how he was conceived.

609
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:15.179
And so he's brought in with Pertwee and Delgado is designed to complement Pertwee.

610
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:16.139
He's a patrician.

611
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:17.519
He's very clever.

612
00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:19.380
He's arrogant.

613
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:21.059
He's pertly only foreign.

614
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:22.199
I said this before.

615
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:27.780
So, when the Masters brought back by Russell, the threat that he poses is that he will take over as star of the show.

616
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.659
And he does. exactly right.

617
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:33.420
He's much more, it's more interesting to look at.

618
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.659
And like what Delgado almost became like the star of the show.

619
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.960
Whereas at no point do you actually feel like Anthony Anthony...

620
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:41.280
No, it's never going to be started.

621
00:42:41.340 --> 00:42:43.019
I don't think he's a threat.

622
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:46.500
I mean, everyone feels comfortable in this position, and I think that's not the actor's fault.

623
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:51.659
No, you have to know who the doctor is and cast the master to play opposite the doctor.

624
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:52.679
You know.

625
00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:55.619
And I think that is eventually, and getting way ahead of ourselves.

626
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:03.599
He works best with Sylvester because Sylvester is this kind of small, quiet figure.

627
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:08.940
Anthony Ainley is at his best when he's very quiet. menacing.

628
00:43:09.059 --> 00:43:14.519
Like when he's with Nissa in the scene, saying, look, Apolis is a cold, high place overlooking the universe.

629
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.460
He and Tom work okay together.

630
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.519
He and Peter, there's no, there's no frisal between them.

631
00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:28.380
It doesn't help the fact that in this episode every time it cuts to a police box or a pillar of whatever it is, you just get that laugh.

632
00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:32.099
Is that all I can do for 3 episodes?

633
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:33.900
I actually quite like that.

634
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:44.400
Because Brendan was talking about deconstructing the series and this turns the TARDIS into a terrifying place and, you know, where people get killed. and both the outside and the inside.

635
00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:50.760
Like having the TARDIS exterior inside the interior really deconstructs the idea of the TARDIS as well.

636
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:56.039
Yeah, it's a bit like the new adventures we'll do later when they're constantly tearing the TARTAS apart and things.

637
00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:58.139
He was asleep by then.

638
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:07.320
In terms of Anthony, I'd like to turn now to Jan, Vincent, Runsky, where has the magic of Doctor Who gone?

639
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:13.500
Um, who puzzled over the fact that, and this is back in 1981.

640
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:23.039
Anthony Anley seems a good choice for the master in a Delgado mould, but I think it would have been better to give him a more definitive variation of the master's character like the doctor does when he regenerates.

641
00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:29.880
Likewise, if this was the Delgado version reborn, then why did he wear that silly suit that makes him look like a penguin?

642
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:32.519
Hey, you said it, you know?

643
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:34.260
I think you're right, Nathan.

644
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:42.059
It should not have been, we're going to just do a carbon copy of Delgado and he's got the beard and he's got this costume from back then and a really bad wig.

645
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:43.199
That's right.

646
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:44.460
He needed to be his own man.

647
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:46.380
And that doesn't thank you.

648
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:46.860
Yes, yes.

649
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:53.039
And it's the same thing that will be said, a future doctor. too distantly. that's getting ahead of ourselves. again.

650
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:55.739
I mean, the 2 masters that we've had in the new series.

651
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.760
And you know, they've been great. you know because they do that.

652
00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:02.159
Yeah, I have to say even Eric Roberts.

653
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:07.619
Because the 8th doctor, when we get to him, is painted as, you know, the bastion of Britishness.

654
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:13.440
So Eric Roberts plays it as a Dolph Lungren style American villain.

655
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:15.900
And it's like, you know what?

656
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:20.460
If you watch it as an adult, that scene where he's coming down the stairs, I always dress.

657
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:21.539
He's magnificent.

658
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:24.420
He is pretty good. everyone I ever know.

659
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:26.820
I'm wearing it now.

660
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.659
I'm doing the accent.

661
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:40.980
He actually does Carol Burnett in her sketch of gone with the wind when she walks down the stairs in a huge draped in velvet with a curtain rail across her back and she says, I saw it in the window and I just had to have it.

662
00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:45.480
I do have to say, I've seen Anthony only in other things, and he's very good.

663
00:45:45.539 --> 00:45:47.400
Yeah, he's excellent in a...

664
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:48.960
Is he the palaces or Forsyth?

665
00:45:49.019 --> 00:45:49.800
He was in one of those things.

666
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:51.059
I think it was the palaces.

667
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:52.440
Take him way back.

668
00:45:52.500 --> 00:45:56.639
But also for fans of the podcast who know we enjoy the Avengers.

669
00:45:56.699 --> 00:45:57.659
Gasp.

670
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:02.519
He is in a latter-day Avengers episode called Noon Doomsday, which is a Western.

671
00:46:02.579 --> 00:46:10.199
And pretty much long story short, Steed has a broken leg, so he's convalescing in this home for injured agents. and there's someone coming to kill him.

672
00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:21.840
So Tara King tries to rally the other spies who are there to aid Steed and all of them are like, no, I don't want to do anything, except for Anthony Ainley, who is bedridden and can't speak beyond a whisper.

673
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:28.739
So his whole job is just to be a lookout, but he's just this incredibly brave, incredibly dignified performance.

674
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.780
He's really good in that.

675
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:35.099
So noon doomsday in season 6 of the Avengers. our gunfighters.

676
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:37.440
You know what?

677
00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:41.340
I think his best scene is besides his stuff with Miss, which I think is actually really good.

678
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:52.500
It is, yeah. is that moment when he's peering out of the Barris Project Tower as Tom is swinging, we're about to just a photograph.

679
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.380
Correct. a cardboard card.

680
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.880
I never saw that as a kid.

681
00:46:56.940 --> 00:47:00.300
No, but then the 2nd time I watched it, I went, that's not.

682
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:01.679
Yes.

683
00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:04.679
Yeah, because, you know, you're looking you're looking at Tom.

684
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:05.699
That's what that scene.

685
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.119
That scene caused a fair...

686
00:47:10.019 --> 00:47:11.880
Hell, you know.

687
00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:17.159
Oh, another thing that deconstructs what's going before is I'm jetticing Romana's room.

688
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

689
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:18.900
And that's actually it.

690
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:23.400
In my opinion, that's a brilliant scene between Tom and Adrick. like the way Tom snaps.

691
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:27.539
And the way that Matthew actually snaps back, I'm sorry.

692
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:30.780
Because I thought I was the Romana now.

693
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.380
You made me wear...

694
00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:41.820
But yeah, some consternation that was caused during that drop from the Pharaohs Tower.

695
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:44.219
Okay, chaps, I think we're all going to come up with the same answer.

696
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:49.739
When the doctor drops off the Pharaoh's Tower, what is the shot that's burned into your memory?

697
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:50.460
The single shot?

698
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:58.260
Tegan sees him dropping faster than everyone else. reaction where they're all watching him fall.

699
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:04.380
But Tegan, he, as far as Tegan's concerned, he's already hit the ground while he's still in the air for the other two.

700
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:05.460
Oh, okay.

701
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:08.579
For me, it's like, isn't there a little dolly swimming?

702
00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:09.659
Ah, yes, yes.

703
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:17.159
But also too, the other thing that I'll criticise is the fact that, you know, he's hanging on to that girder or whatever, right?

704
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:19.320
And, like, he's actually hanging on to it.

705
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:20.400
Like that could be fine.

706
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:23.760
And then he does this thing with his hands that it's sort of like, well, I really have just given up.

707
00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:24.780
I don't give a shame.

708
00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:26.039
I'm just trying to kill myself.

709
00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:31.739
Like, even as a kid, I remember thinking for a moment, oh, that's a bit, like, clearly hang on.

710
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.079
It is a great shot though, isn't it?

711
00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:35.280
Where his hand just lets go.

712
00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:43.860
That is the bit that caused a stand-up row between him and Peter Grimwade and John Nathan Turner because they wanted him to scream.

713
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.380
That would have been ridiculous.

714
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:50.280
And Tom's version of what the scene is.

715
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:51.900
He's like, no, all through the story.

716
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:54.119
I've been seeing this figure who is my death.

717
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.659
And I've just saved the universe.

718
00:48:57.719 --> 00:48:58.619
I'm being heroic.

719
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:09.900
And I think he said, I don't know what I was thinking at the time, but what I think looking at that now when the hand goes, that's the doctor going, it's okay, I can let go. you know, and he's like that's my heroic act.

720
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:11.280
I've saved the universe.

721
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:13.739
I don't have to save myself and I'm not screaming on the way down.

722
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:14.460
And he got his way.

723
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:20.820
And I think it's all the more effective, but you just have that musical beat from Patty Kingsland as the hang goes down.

724
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.400
And yet, unfortunately, you have Janet beginning how gravity works.

725
00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:25.980
It's different in Brisbane.

726
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:29.519
It's the outback.

727
00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:33.659
Interesting, like, we're talking about death and entropy and all that sort of thing.

728
00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:35.880
And like, so Andrew's brother was killed.

729
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:36.420
Yep.

730
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:45.719
Mrs. father was killed, and now Tegan's aunts killed, all of them have got one dead relative because of this, you know?

731
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:47.880
because of the master.

732
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:49.980
Well, is it because of the master?

733
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.280
Is this moment to jump in that none of this would have happened?

734
00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:56.519
The doctor knowingly knew that knowingly knew?

735
00:49:56.579 --> 00:49:57.300
Can I say that?

736
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:03.059
knew that the master was in the TARDIS and he still went to Frick and Legopolis and took him there?

737
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:10.679
I think that thing letting go is actually Mia Culpa. when he falls off the light, the light says, all impacting with me all the time.

738
00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:13.380
I should probably go before anyone notices.

739
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:21.179
You know, in some alternative universe, Tegan will wander into the master's tart as an auntie, but yes, we will wander into the doctor's.

740
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:23.340
I would watch that.

741
00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:25.559
That would be really interesting.

742
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:27.780
I think Vanessa is wonderful, isn't she?

743
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:28.619
she not wonderful?

744
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:32.099
This spaceship is hardly the starship enterprise, my dear.

745
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:35.340
God, she would have been great.

746
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.300
She wrote her.

747
00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:42.360
I just realised that Tagan, and all the original series companion, she's got her aunt, her cousin, and her grandfather.

748
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:47.639
That's the most relatives of any other companions seen in the history of the original series.

749
00:50:47.699 --> 00:50:48.179
Absolutely.

750
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:56.099
What I find astonishing about the 80s, and it starts with Adric, pretty much with the exception of Mel.

751
00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:57.000
Yeah.

752
00:50:57.059 --> 00:51:03.000
All the companions from the 80s are treated as orphans.

753
00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:06.119
You know, Perry's mother is still alive, but we never see her.

754
00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:07.619
We see her stepfather, you know?

755
00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:09.900
Ace has disowned her parents.

756
00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:16.320
Turlo, we find out his dad's dead, you know, and presumably his mother, we never hear of his mother.

757
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:22.019
And I kind of thought to myself, oh, that's a bit of a throwback to the 60s, but in the 60s, really, that was just Vicky and Victoria.

758
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:23.880
Isn't Dodo an orphan?

759
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:25.320
Oh, well, yeah.

760
00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:26.880
Yeah, Dodo lives with her aunt.

761
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:31.380
So, oh, yeah, and her, um, she says in Celestial Toymaker, it's the day my mother died.

762
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:32.099
Oh, okay.

763
00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:32.519
You know?

764
00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:32.940
Really?

765
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:33.599
Did she say that?

766
00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:35.340
Yeah, she's been hanging about.

767
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.519
No, she's leaping about in a frock and grinning when she says it.

768
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.039
Ah, so completely.

769
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:42.539
Day my mother died.

770
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:44.400
It took 3 spoons of arsenic.

771
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:49.079
Sorry. 3 spins of arsenic.

772
00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:52.739
No, she was doing BBC. by that point.

773
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:54.900
Why do we think that is?

774
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.360
Why is the 80s full of orphans?

775
00:51:57.420 --> 00:52:02.699
Do we have, you can't go off on the adventure with a doctor unless you have a tragic backstory and nothing to go back to?

776
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:06.599
You don't have those ties that the new series has to family and all that sort of thing.

777
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:10.199
It stops it from being real, I guess.

778
00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:12.119
Sarah is an orphan as well.

779
00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:15.300
I don't think it's specifically mentioned, but she only even mentions her aunt.

780
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:17.219
Yeah, actually, especially on the way back.

781
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.440
They only establish her as an orphan in the new series.

782
00:52:19.500 --> 00:52:24.420
Or possibly that's in the books and they've brought that in with the temptation of Sarah Jane Smith.

783
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.460
And we hear about Joe's uncle as well.

784
00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:28.559
It's a bit past, isn't it?

785
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:37.920
There's that mediaeval story if you have to go through a great loss to achieve whatever plane of higher transcendence this is.

786
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:39.239
Hello Spider-Man.

787
00:52:39.300 --> 00:52:41.880
You know, they had to go there, didn't you?

788
00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:52.500
Are they subconsciously thinking that all the people now watching the show are all these loners and losers that have no friends and are just like individuals that are isolated from socially?

789
00:52:52.559 --> 00:53:00.420
Everyone has experienced that at some level, even us just sitting there and hating your whole family for whatever period of a Sunday it is, that you, you know, everyone goes through that.

790
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:02.099
So everyone's spelled isolated.

791
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:04.199
Maybe that's what Doctor Who has always been.

792
00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:13.139
I think it's because they're not interested in doing what Russell will do when he comes back and...

793
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:19.260
Yeah, so the characters aren't worrying about anyone missing them while they're on board the TARDAS.

794
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.739
And so I think I think that that's either they've got no ties.

795
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:26.519
You know, no one has a partner at home, no one's worried about their dog.

796
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:29.519
Yeah, I mean, I suppose sort of in the 60s.

797
00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:35.699
They did sometimes talk about going home and of course they couldn't because it was random and erratic in the pertly era.

798
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:39.539
You know, they were earth-based as much as they were travelling in space, if not more so.

799
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:46.739
And then, you know, with Leila and Romana, Leila has no interest in going back to her tribe.

800
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.619
And Romana, we find out, has no interest in going back.

801
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:53.519
So yeah, maybe that's the only way to kind of do it with human characters.

802
00:53:53.579 --> 00:54:02.639
But at the same time, you know, this story kind of establishes that, well, we know Adrik can't get back to where he comes from and...

803
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:03.300
No, no.

804
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:14.699
And Tegan's desperate to get back, but she gets back a year later, and surely the police would come knocking because you've been missing for a year and your aunt is reduced to yay high, and you were last seen with her in the bloody car.

805
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.699
Why does the copper take those corpses so serious?

806
00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:20.639
Is he from units?

807
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:21.239
don't know.

808
00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:28.260
But yeah, I mean, it's a great cliffhanger where the doctor looks into the car and so we do skip from the truck.

809
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:34.019
Then there's the whole thing of I'm going to arrest you because of these dolls in an illegally parked car.

810
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:43.440
They should have done it the way that they did it in Terror of the Autons where it's a CSO shot. because that's good in the lunchbox is so terrific.

811
00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:46.079
Yeah, it's just aren't Vanessa played by an action man.

812
00:54:46.139 --> 00:54:46.739
Yeah.

813
00:54:46.739 --> 00:54:51.659
Did anybody have the Doctor Who patent book, which came out a few years after this?

814
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:58.320
It was a book full of sewing patterns, and you could knit Doctor Who cosplayer for your action man figures.

815
00:54:58.380 --> 00:54:59.880
And which one did you name, Brendan?

816
00:54:59.940 --> 00:55:01.199
I can't I can't knit.

817
00:55:01.260 --> 00:55:09.780
I tried knitting once, and someone gave me like a few rows of 10 stitches, and within half an hour I had a few rows of 21 stitches, and that's not how it's meant to work, apparently.

818
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.019
Could you, did it have the pattern of Auntie Vanessa's outfit?

819
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:14.699
Because I would make that in a heartbeat.

820
00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:18.360
No, but you could sew together Tegan's boob tube.

821
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:19.739
Oh, you could too.

822
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:21.960
And it was actually called the boob tube.

823
00:55:22.019 --> 00:55:28.079
And they had these they had these great teenagers modelling the outfits against a gray wall with paper plates stuck to it.

824
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.159
That's right.

825
00:55:29.219 --> 00:55:30.539
The white paper plates.

826
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:34.079
Of course, now with modern technology with all these things swap apps.

827
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:42.719
Okay, okay, boob swap, and you can actually stop right next to, Janet, and transformed yourself into it. as we will be doing on, let's post those.

828
00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:44.940
Sharing those in a moment.

829
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:47.400
Sounds like it would turn you into a right tit, quite frankly.

830
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:49.079
Aren't you glad you're listening?

831
00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:49.679
Go on then.

832
00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:54.900
Good old Christopher does have a bit of a sense of humour.

833
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:59.340
Like, this is, you know how he ripped out of the humour from a leisure high.

834
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.320
But here it's in evidence.

835
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:03.900
You know, you know, when the look just says, I've seen a little of her.

836
00:56:04.019 --> 00:56:06.900
But I mean, it's a horrible black sort of pun.

837
00:56:06.900 --> 00:56:14.699
I just had to pause for, as Richard has handed me some sort of space swap live.

838
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:16.679
It's very interesting.

839
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.320
I can't really describe it.

840
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:21.900
That's what they're trying. to me and Elizabeth Taylor.

841
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:24.659
I was going to say, who was what terrible woman?

842
00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:26.400
It was that terrible, that's what they're trying to do.

843
00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:27.239
I didn't mean to stop you.

844
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:28.559
I thought you'd get a laugh while you were ready.

845
00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:44.940
I think that's what, is that what they're trying to do to with the female characters because it's like, it's all, they're almost interchangeable and it's only the loudness of NISA or the diminution of, sorry, the loudness of Tegan or the diminution of, I can't even say Tegan.

846
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:50.460
I mean, so that, yeah, it's the swapsy thing is it's like, you know, you've got these labels and that's who you are, but what's underneath?

847
00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:55.440
Well, I mean, you've never had anything underneath with the doctorly companions, have you?

848
00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:58.260
Like, you know, not since Barbara and Ian, obviously.

849
00:56:58.320 --> 00:56:59.460
Yeah, that's true actually.

850
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:01.139
They do become Sarah.

851
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:14.400
They become sort of one sentence, high concept, things, you know, they're from such and such a planet, and they are a mathematician, or they, as usual, know very little about telebion genesis.

852
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.079
Oh, God, in 3 weeks, you weren't going to be like, pig in, Mark.

853
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:26.699
You know, it's funny what you say there about comedy, Todd, because bit mean scripts are always quite witty.

854
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:27.239
Yeah.

855
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:37.199
You know, we'll get some jokes in Castro Valva, and one of my favourite ever Doctor Who jokes is coming up in front of us when Mr. Range is talking about, um, Oh, you know, the ship was amazing.

856
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:39.539
It had failproof technology and the doctor says what happened.

857
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:40.260
It fails.

858
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:43.380
You know, big thing's actually quite witty.

859
00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:44.760
It does make me wonder.

860
00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:49.139
Has he ripped out everyone else's comedy so he can book funnier?

861
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.860
Oh, no, I think he's just reacting against season 17.

862
00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:53.219
Right.

863
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:57.840
And, you know, leisure hide is about saying we're here and it's going to be different.

864
00:57:57.900 --> 00:57:59.460
Wasn't that his brief though?

865
00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:01.559
Oh, I think that's perfectly fine.

866
00:58:01.619 --> 00:58:03.059
I have no problem with that.

867
00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:04.800
That's why I love the leisure high.

868
00:58:04.860 --> 00:58:06.420
You mentioned Fermarsi?

869
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:14.280
At last, I've cut you down to side, but the master says that and the doctor has shrunk inside.

870
00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:16.679
I really like that mini Tartis model.

871
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:39.239
And I actually like Tom looking out up at the faces of Adric Nisser and Tegan, or if it's just Mr. and Tegan, and just the horror that's in his face is lying in there, just as a moment that they didn't quite plan for, that he's not sort of like horrified that he's that small, but it's the people looking at him outside that he's actually horrific, don't they?

872
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:48.239
And that's why I'll stay here, thanks. that shock, like, however it's done where he's looking up in that angle. another great, another great directorial moment.

873
00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:50.699
Yeah, and what I discovered recently.

874
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:55.739
And, you know, it's a great thing when you can come back to stories you're obviously so familiar with and discover new things.

875
00:58:55.800 --> 00:59:02.039
There's that in that scene where the doctor shrunk in the TARDIS and he misquotes Huxley.

876
00:59:02.099 --> 00:59:03.960
The cheeseboard is the world.

877
00:59:04.019 --> 00:59:07.980
Thomas Huxley, yes. 1825 to 1892 or something.

878
00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:11.579
And of course, Huxley was a huge proponent of Charles Darwin's theory.

879
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:13.260
Now, privately...

880
00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:17.099
He wore a lot of ladies underwear, but that's over here.

881
00:59:17.579 --> 00:59:26.699
Well, they were a lot more secure than men's back then, but privately, he didn't always agree with everything Darwin said, but publicly he supported him.

882
00:59:26.699 --> 00:59:33.059
And Huxley is credited with the definition and coining of agnosticism.

883
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:47.039
The idea that in Huxley's words, or paraphrasing Huxley's words, that you should believe what you can in science up until the point that there is no information and then extrapolate from there.

884
00:59:47.099 --> 00:59:54.300
Now, what we take agnosticism to me now is not having a strong opinion either way, whether there is a god or not.

885
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:57.179
Well, you're going back to Aristotelian, aren't you?

886
00:59:57.300 --> 01:00:09.780
You're actually going back to Socratic dialogue and the concepts of that sort of aporhea concept, the idea that you can't have that there are some things that can't have satisfactory definitions.

887
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:10.320
Yeah.

888
01:00:10.380 --> 01:00:15.900
I mean, agnosticism also is the belief that it's not possible to know whether there's a god.

889
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:18.239
Or to get a laugh out of a script.

890
01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:18.480
Yeah.

891
01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:22.260
Yeah, it's possible within this. with what we know again.

892
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.739
But when I had that knowledge, And I considered the story again.

893
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:34.199
I thought, you know what, this story is quite agnostic, because the logopolitans are holding the universe together through mathematics.

894
01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:36.780
Wizards with abacuses, aren't they?

895
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:37.320
Exactly.

896
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:43.619
They're holding it together through science, but it's also magic, but it's science, but it's magic, and backcoming.

897
01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:48.539
Isn't that another Russell T. Davies series, something about science versus magic?

898
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:49.679
Oh, the 2nd coming.

899
01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:51.539
No, wizards versus aliens.

900
01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:53.039
Oh, sorry.

901
01:00:53.099 --> 01:00:53.820
Sorry.

902
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.159
But that's the thing.

903
01:00:56.219 --> 01:01:03.599
I thought, hang on, this script is quite agnostic as well, because you have these metaphysical quasi-religious themes.

904
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:09.300
I mean, even the way the watcher is treated, and you know, everything the watcher says is reported.

905
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:11.639
Yeah, you never hear him.

906
01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:16.320
When Adric comes back from talking with the watcher, he doesn't say what the watcher told him.

907
01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:19.260
He says, it seems like he knows what is going to happen.

908
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.219
Well, you know where this is coming from, don't you?

909
01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:24.780
And you're mentioning Huxley.

910
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:26.519
You haven't mentioned Kabbala yet, have you?

911
01:01:26.579 --> 01:01:27.179
No, I haven't.

912
01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:29.639
You haven't mentioned the 1492 expulsion.

913
01:01:29.699 --> 01:01:31.380
We can go back to the massacre again.

914
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:32.099
How exciting.

915
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:39.719
However, in this case, it's Spain, and the unification of Spain meant we get rid of the Gs, and we get rid of who else did we get rid of when we did that?

916
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:43.079
Anyway, we got rid of our amours in Spain, anyone who wasn't us.

917
01:01:43.139 --> 01:01:47.340
And they went off to Venice and started something called, you know, an empire.

918
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:49.260
And they just did very nicely.

919
01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:49.679
Thank you.

920
01:01:49.739 --> 01:01:59.340
But they also brought to the west the concept of Kabbala, or that you can build the world, or the world is built by the words of God, the word, in other words.

921
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:01.440
And that is also mathematical.

922
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:05.159
So that is, if you can, it's always in Hebrew, of course.

923
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:13.139
But if you can construct, Obviously, Clark wrote the 9000000000 names of God, a short story. anyone read that once, spoiler alert.

924
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:14.579
Yeah, the stars go out at the end.

925
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:17.519
I calculated the name.

926
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:24.300
Yes, the name of God, because they put a program in, then the universe stops because, hey, the whole reason for existence has now stopped.

927
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:31.860
So Doctor Who is looking at all these beautiful historical antecedenty things, which is what Doctor Who does really well, except does it make it to screen?

928
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.760
Is that intensity of interest that you're seeing now for anyone here?

929
01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:37.679
Is that you getting that in this story?

930
01:02:37.739 --> 01:02:39.900
I think it's more prosaic than that.

931
01:02:39.960 --> 01:03:02.519
And I think that bidmead is foreseeing what our computers do now, which is they model 3 dimensional objects and space-time events we see seeing of that happening on the screen on the Tata screen when the doctor shows us how a pyramid is created, but you have a computer creating an image of a pyramid, and it's pretty primitive.

932
01:03:02.579 --> 01:03:11.159
But nowadays our computers and Legopolis is a computer. create detail of 3D worlds routinely, including Doctor Who, in fact.

933
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:15.719
That question you just asked me, Richard, off, is that something I picked up on as a child?

934
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:16.260
No, no.

935
01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:17.940
No, but I mean, even as a viewer now.

936
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:24.599
But the thing is, as a child, I always watch this story, and at the end, I was left going, there's something I'm not seeing.

937
01:03:24.659 --> 01:03:29.400
I always felt there was there were ideas behind it.

938
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:32.699
And the thing is, the conceptual horror of the story.

939
01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:36.719
The conceptual horror of the end of the universe always got through to me as a kid.

940
01:03:36.780 --> 01:03:40.500
I found this story terrifying, but not really because of the visuals.

941
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:42.239
I mean, the monitor dying.

942
01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:47.400
Um, you know, death by CSO static did terrify me as a child, you know.

943
01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:52.920
But the greater terror to me was the idea of the end of the universe.

944
01:03:52.980 --> 01:04:11.760
Although, interestingly, as a child, I'd be interested to know if you guys felt the same way, is I didn't understand the CVE-space connection until I was in my teens and sort of watched the story in situ because I suppose it is just to throw away.

945
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:15.840
Like, Todd, is that something you picked up on that it was a culmination of these plots strands from earlier?

946
01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:17.639
No, not with the CVE stuff.

947
01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:19.800
But I was only 8 or 9 or whatever.

948
01:04:19.860 --> 01:04:21.480
So I didn't really pick it up at that time.

949
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:25.679
But it's only been, it's a line, you know?

950
01:04:25.739 --> 01:04:29.159
And if you missed that line or don't hear it properly, then that's the difference.

951
01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:37.739
Because you're not, you know, and so it was only years later that I went, oh, that is a throne, that is tying all that stuff back in.

952
01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:51.420
I think one of the reasons the story, things that can get away with having no plot is that it is the capstone of all of this stuff that's been happening all season and so you get, you know, mentions of Romani, you get mentions of the CVA, you get mentions of track, and you get all of these things.

953
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:53.519
It has been telling a continuous story.

954
01:04:53.579 --> 01:04:58.739
And so this is Doctor Who's 1st real proper season finale in the sense that we have them now.

955
01:04:59.099 --> 01:05:13.019
And so, you know, Big Mead thinks we can just sort of faff around and stuff and maybe have 2 episodes worth of story because he's, you know, telling a bigger, he's telling a bigger story here.

956
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.360
I mean, does that affect people tuning in?

957
01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:20.219
I mean, that again, I'm going to go on my little rating.

958
01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:27.960
Well, I'm curious to know because there was there was a lot of press and Tom Baker was interviewed 3 or 4 times about leaving the series.

959
01:05:28.019 --> 01:05:29.280
So what were the ratings like, top?

960
01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:32.280
Episode one got 7.one million.

961
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:35.099
Episode 2 got 7.7 and place 57.

962
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:36.900
Now that's the highest placing for the season.

963
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:37.860
Right?

964
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:42.000
Now, of course, these are just like terrible compared to like his previous 6 years.

965
01:05:42.059 --> 01:05:45.719
We've talked about how awful the early parts of the season.

966
01:05:45.780 --> 01:05:46.920
Yeah, they weren't doing.

967
01:05:46.980 --> 01:05:53.820
Episode three, 5.8 Came 102nd or 3rd in the chart and his last episode, 6.one million.

968
01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:54.420
Ooh.

969
01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:55.739
Thud.

970
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:57.539
Yeah, and it's...

971
01:05:57.539 --> 01:05:59.039
I don't know.

972
01:05:59.099 --> 01:06:03.300
When I 1st saw those figures whenever it was in the mid 80s, I was actually really astounded.

973
01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:07.739
And now I'm sort of heartbroken by them, really.

974
01:06:07.800 --> 01:06:08.280
To think that.

975
01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:09.420
Does it make sense though?

976
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:17.579
Well, we've talked about the fact that the show was eroding its renewal fan base, you know, over most of the John Baker Eva, really.

977
01:06:17.639 --> 01:06:34.139
And is that because they're not including, I love what you said earlier, the age or 9 year olds, because I was thinking when you were all talking, I was 14 when this 1st broadcast and it felt great to be smarty smug and going to school and being able to look up CVs and stuff and talk about that.

978
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:42.840
And that's great for a nerdy 14 year old boy who hasn't discovered anything beyond, you know, onanism and self-discovery through encyclopaedias.

979
01:06:42.900 --> 01:06:52.380
But for, as you say, the fan base is actually everyone else, which is the 4 other or 5 other members of the family, you've just diminished your audience by 3 quarters.

980
01:06:52.500 --> 01:06:55.980
How does Castro Valver go, do you know?

981
01:06:56.039 --> 01:06:58.139
Eights and nine million?

982
01:06:58.199 --> 01:06:58.500
Right.

983
01:06:58.559 --> 01:06:59.039
Yeah, right.

984
01:06:59.099 --> 01:07:01.920
There's immediate bup at the beginning of next season.

985
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:07.739
I've mentioned this before, that next year, half the episodes will be inside the top 50, right?

986
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:10.739
The lowest rating for next season will be 8.1 million.

987
01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:12.239
And when does it move to a weeknight?

988
01:07:12.300 --> 01:07:12.900
Next year.

989
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:13.679
Next year. next year.

990
01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:24.119
This season is possibly because of Buck Rogers, but has indicated that that family audience on Saturday afternoon is not there anymore for Doctor Who.

991
01:07:24.179 --> 01:07:24.480
Yes.

992
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:33.300
You know, I think if Tom had decided not to leave, I think the show could have quite easily been taxed at this point based on ratings and saying, look, we're not going to continue.

993
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.699
It needed to have something new.

994
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:43.019
And, you know, Davidson coming in and the bump that is next season, which averages around 9 million, right?

995
01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:44.940
Then, you know, you get through season 19.

996
01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:47.760
Well, you're going to do a 20th season because it's 20 years of Doctor Who.

997
01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:48.239
Yeah, yes.

998
01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:54.360
So I think that brings us squarely to the regeneration.

999
01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:57.420
All those flashbacks.

1000
01:07:57.480 --> 01:07:59.099
I mean, is this the 1st time that we've had?

1001
01:07:59.099 --> 01:08:01.320
Yeah, these splashbacks.

1002
01:08:01.380 --> 01:08:03.300
I think it's the 1st time we've had flashbacks.

1003
01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:04.679
And that music.

1004
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:07.920
I think the music is spectacularly good.

1005
01:08:07.980 --> 01:08:21.420
Oh, throughout all the little themes throughout the entire thing, but also at that and the emotions that it just stirs up and just seeing all of those old characters, and even now, even when I watch it, it still tears well in my eyes at that point.

1006
01:08:21.539 --> 01:08:30.239
Yeah, JNT was very keen to have those montages and Ian Levine was acting as unofficial family liaison.

1007
01:08:30.300 --> 01:08:39.420
So it was Ian Levine going through and finding the appropriate clips, like you just said to him, I want as many villains and companions just saying doctor, just saying his name.

1008
01:08:39.659 --> 01:08:42.539
He didn't really actually manage that, did he?

1009
01:08:42.659 --> 01:08:48.180
Because there's at least one of the villains who's saying something else, but the word doctor is kind of dubbed over it.

1010
01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:49.920
Yeah, well, the pirate captain isn't even speaking.

1011
01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:55.380
I think he found that every time the pirate captain said doctor, it was like in long shot or whatever.

1012
01:08:55.439 --> 01:09:04.979
The weirdest one for me is Louise Jamieson, who's it's when she's looking down at the yo-yo in the robots of death. it's a really terrible shot of her.

1013
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.800
Whereas all the other companions, it's quite a good close-up of them.

1014
01:09:07.859 --> 01:09:09.420
I never liked the ceremony.

1015
01:09:09.899 --> 01:09:15.180
Because it is a good close-up, but she says doctor's so quiet, it's just this.

1016
01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:18.119
But you probably can't even hear what I just said to him.

1017
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:21.420
No, no, it struck me at the time because I was just so in love with Sarah.

1018
01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:23.039
I wanted a better clip.

1019
01:09:23.100 --> 01:09:24.479
Got it.

1020
01:09:24.539 --> 01:09:26.159
Damn it, you know.

1021
01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:28.859
The thing that always gets me about this.

1022
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.340
And it's the end of this deconstruction.

1023
01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:34.380
But...

1024
01:09:34.380 --> 01:09:48.300
What those clips highlight, like, you know, you get Sarah, Harry, the brig, canine, Leila, Romana, Romana, it's like, and then all of a sudden it's Adric, and it's like he's dying and he's surrounded by people.

1025
01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:49.800
He's only just next.

1026
01:09:49.920 --> 01:10:01.680
And, but at the same time, I kind, I kind of think dramatically that's very good because it's like they have tenants for generation when he's completely alone and it makes it all the more palpable.

1027
01:10:01.739 --> 01:10:06.779
Of course, that great line that everyone quotes at the end, but the moment has been prepared for.

1028
01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:09.960
Okay, it ends on a preposition, but who cares?

1029
01:10:10.020 --> 01:10:10.859
That's all right.

1030
01:10:11.220 --> 01:10:24.060
But also, and I don't, no, but it seems like they've put Tom in a slight ditch because it looks like he's just too flat into the ground of legs at a weird angle.

1031
01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:25.500
Do you think it started burying?

1032
01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:29.939
Have you seen the art takes when he's absolutely savaging everyone?

1033
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:33.060
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and they just just dial.

1034
01:10:33.119 --> 01:10:34.260
Yeah, he's really horrible.

1035
01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:36.119
He's a vile old queen.

1036
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:43.500
There's a great bit in that footage, which I love, where they're discussing whether he's going to reach out to the watcher.

1037
01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:46.619
And the thing is, he's like, yeah, I'm going to reach out.

1038
01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:47.819
Oh, you want me to beckon?

1039
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:49.859
I don't like a beckon.

1040
01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:51.119
I'm not calling him over.

1041
01:10:51.180 --> 01:10:53.340
You know, I'm not having a beckon.

1042
01:10:53.399 --> 01:10:59.699
And then a few seconds, a few seconds later, and you're sure that Peter Grim might have been talking to the 4 assistant saying, oh, just give him what he thing wants.

1043
01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:00.720
It's 915.

1044
01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:07.260
And you hear the floor manager say, I'm sorry, total misunderstanding on my part.

1045
01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:09.600
And to Tom's great credit.

1046
01:11:09.659 --> 01:11:11.760
He says, oh, darling.

1047
01:11:11.819 --> 01:11:13.680
That's even worse.

1048
01:11:13.739 --> 01:11:16.079
No, seeing that, I thought, yeah, you had to go.

1049
01:11:16.140 --> 01:11:16.619
Yeah.

1050
01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:21.779
Because you've been, you have become your own grand Guinole, grand, grotesque, horrible thing.

1051
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:22.020
Yes.

1052
01:11:22.140 --> 01:11:23.819
But you know, what is great?

1053
01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:28.020
And I say, I say now, I think this was released on DVD over 10 years ago.

1054
01:11:28.020 --> 01:11:33.779
On the commentary, you have Christopher Hamilton bit made, Tom Baker and Janet Fielding.

1055
01:11:33.779 --> 01:11:39.840
And Chris and Tom had this discussion about, you know, wondering who that is.

1056
01:11:39.899 --> 01:11:42.359
Well, what was it hard for you to leave?

1057
01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:51.600
And Tom says, you know, I don't remember, I don't remember the production of much of this because, yeah, I was so angry and I was so bereft and Janet just says, well, you were horrible to me.

1058
01:11:51.659 --> 01:11:55.380
And he's like, to Matthew. was I?

1059
01:11:55.439 --> 01:11:55.859
I'm simple.

1060
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:56.520
Take this scene.

1061
01:11:56.579 --> 01:11:57.180
This is what you did.

1062
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:01.319
And to his great credit, he just goes, Darling, I'm so incredible.

1063
01:12:01.380 --> 01:12:04.500
That must have been terrifying for you because you just started on the show.

1064
01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:07.739
You can't have known how angry and tight I was.

1065
01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:08.579
I'm really very sorry.

1066
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:10.439
Sure, it's easy to say that in hindsight.

1067
01:12:10.500 --> 01:12:11.819
What does Jen say?

1068
01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:15.060
Well, Janet is a bit taken aback.

1069
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:23.039
Janet is a bit taken aback by how contrite he is immediately, but kind of goes, oh, you know, we knew that.

1070
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:30.840
And if we were kind of doing it now, I'd be able to say that, but, you know, I was 20 and I just, I didn't think about your position, but thank you, Tom.

1071
01:12:30.899 --> 01:12:31.560
I really appreciate that.

1072
01:12:31.619 --> 01:12:38.699
And it, you know, it has the capacity to be this huge argument, but it's actually diffused by 2 people being adults.

1073
01:12:38.819 --> 01:12:47.039
Yeah, I actually spoke to Janet and said how impressed I was that she managed to get Tom to apologise in that commentary track.

1074
01:12:47.100 --> 01:12:49.560
Brilliant. one of her great merits.

1075
01:12:49.619 --> 01:12:55.800
I mean, we're coming up on an era of pretty terrible stories, but great commentary tracks with Jonathan Peterson.

1076
01:12:55.859 --> 01:12:57.359
Love him to death.

1077
01:12:57.420 --> 01:13:00.720
Well, when things are terrible, the commentary tracks are all the more interesting.

1078
01:13:00.779 --> 01:13:02.220
Yeah, so true.

1079
01:13:02.699 --> 01:13:09.779
But yeah, I will say just the loneliness of this regeneration is what gets to me.

1080
01:13:09.899 --> 01:13:14.699
But the loneliness, but also the fact that it opened up to his last moment of acting.

1081
01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:17.699
Tom suddenly smiles, you know.

1082
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:24.239
And in a way, it's kind of like John going, no, don't cry, Sarah Jane, you know, Tia Sarah Jane.

1083
01:13:24.300 --> 01:13:27.840
It's it's Tom. it's Tom saying, no, no, you know, it's okay.

1084
01:13:27.899 --> 01:13:28.560
It's all right.

1085
01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:32.640
And then you get Peter sitting up at 10 seconds to 10 o'clock.

1086
01:13:32.699 --> 01:13:37.800
And Peter says, you know, people love that look I gave, that look of slight bewilderment.

1087
01:13:37.859 --> 01:13:41.039
That look was, no one told me what to do.

1088
01:13:41.100 --> 01:13:42.899
They just said sit up and look around.

1089
01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:46.319
You know, they just scraped the makeup off me.

1090
01:13:46.380 --> 01:13:53.340
He looks like a deer in headlights, but I do like the fact that as that is going through, you get that little question mark on his face.

1091
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:59.699
Not by design, nothing in the JNT era is ever by design.

1092
01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:01.560
It's all just a happy accident when it works.

1093
01:14:01.619 --> 01:14:04.199
And I really just love that little question mark that appears.

1094
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:05.579
With the stars.

1095
01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:06.539
No, no, no, no.

1096
01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:09.060
When he's regenerating from Tom into...

1097
01:14:09.060 --> 01:14:09.840
Oh, the collar.

1098
01:14:09.899 --> 01:14:19.140
No, no, in his face, in his cocoon, as they dissolve, is like, it looks like it's not really a question mark, but it looks like a question mark in me, just fine.

1099
01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:19.800
Happy accident.

1100
01:14:19.859 --> 01:14:30.779
And I could be wrong, but I believe someone said that in dimensions in time, they've given Tom a question mark shaped bruise on one cheek to employees been beaten about by the Rani.

1101
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:32.880
Are we given to a dimensions in time episode?

1102
01:14:32.939 --> 01:14:35.699
We should do a one hour episode on dimensions in time.

1103
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:36.479
Yeah, that's right.

1104
01:14:36.539 --> 01:14:37.500
One hour.

1105
01:14:37.560 --> 01:14:38.460
How long did it run for?

1106
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:40.319
13 minutes or 26 minutes?

1107
01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:41.819
13 minutes too long.

1108
01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:47.760
Oh, as much as I, I think there's plot that doesn't exist in this.

1109
01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:52.920
There are just so many moments and words and feelings that I love about.

1110
01:14:52.979 --> 01:14:56.460
It's all my favourite of the season, but I always enjoy watching it.

1111
01:14:56.760 --> 01:15:00.060
Could I ask Todd, what do you think of Tom's costume now?

1112
01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:03.359
Oh, yes, I've been waiting for this.

1113
01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:07.800
I really love it by the end of this.

1114
01:15:07.859 --> 01:15:11.819
You know, yeah, by the end of the season, it is, it is him.

1115
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:13.680
It is his character now.

1116
01:15:14.699 --> 01:15:17.579
It symbolises where we've come to.

1117
01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:22.319
I think for a long time this is my favourite season.

1118
01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:31.500
I think Legopolis is slightly disappointing as an end to it because it's not altering to have much of a plot.

1119
01:15:31.560 --> 01:15:55.380
But, um, you know, I've said all sorts of things about, uh, crispy made, but he does a tremendous job, and the show is interesting and it builds a world and it tells a coherent story all the way from full circle, and just visually, it's really, you know, inventive.

1120
01:15:55.439 --> 01:16:06.239
And it challenges Tom, and I really like Tom's performance in this season a lot. that muted, like I love season 17 Tom, he's hilarious.

1121
01:16:06.300 --> 01:16:08.640
You know, I love the Williams era.

1122
01:16:08.699 --> 01:16:17.760
You know, I'm quite happy to watch Tom Larking about, but this more sombre muted restrained Tom is also really good too.

1123
01:16:17.819 --> 01:16:19.500
So I like this a lot.

1124
01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:24.779
However, after that.

1125
01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:27.600
Richard.

1126
01:16:28.619 --> 01:16:32.819
It's interesting to hear that it's so cadenced because that's very true.

1127
01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:34.380
I haven't had a chance to talk about this season.

1128
01:16:34.439 --> 01:16:38.039
Other than to say, yes, I loved Tom's costume from day one.

1129
01:16:38.100 --> 01:16:46.619
It was patrician, and it was, it was almost, oh, gosh, it almost felt like an Hungarian prince, didn't it?

1130
01:16:46.680 --> 01:16:55.079
I'm reminded of those terrible films that were coming out of Hungary in the 70s of great coats and strapping 18th century heroes.

1131
01:16:55.140 --> 01:16:57.420
And anyway, Tom fits into that mould perfectly well.

1132
01:16:57.479 --> 01:16:58.319
What is Dracula?

1133
01:16:58.380 --> 01:16:58.859
Yeah, maybe.

1134
01:16:58.920 --> 01:17:06.239
But there's, yeah, I'd love the look of this season and I still very much love the Williams era, but he made it his own.

1135
01:17:06.300 --> 01:17:18.899
And there's a sense of loss throughout all of this with the, the jangling and jeering cheerfulness of the visuals and how, I guess you can say, and for the time, this did look very sophisticated.

1136
01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:23.039
This was absolutely on par with everything else on TV in 1980,81.

1137
01:17:23.220 --> 01:17:26.460
We forget that all that TREC stuff wasn't around.

1138
01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:32.100
There were films that looked gorgeous, but TV, no, no, this was as good as it got.

1139
01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:38.819
But all through this season, there was a sense of... a sense of, um, it wasn't just on we.

1140
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:51.659
It's actually diminution, again, as a sense of loss, as it just gradually fades through, just as an old person fades away, you know, an oldly relative, and that sadness was there, and it was the perfect age.

1141
01:17:51.779 --> 01:17:54.779
A many great flowers, a young adolescent when I saw it.

1142
01:17:54.899 --> 01:17:59.520
But I have to say, if I was a very young person, I can see why the ratings dropped.

1143
01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:08.939
For me, as a child, I think I mentioned way back in Planet of the Spiders, that regeneration stories are always something I came back to again and again and again.

1144
01:18:09.060 --> 01:18:10.979
I think as a child.

1145
01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:14.699
This story was very much a visual one for me.

1146
01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:15.960
Watching this as a 5 year old.

1147
01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:19.020
So picking up on what you just said, Richard, I didn't understand it.

1148
01:18:19.739 --> 01:18:25.140
But I enjoy, well, the bits of it I did understand I enjoyed.

1149
01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:33.359
But I enjoyed the visuals of it, and I enjoyed the what I would now term the direction of it, but the look and the feel.

1150
01:18:33.420 --> 01:18:39.300
To me as a child flushing out the master makes perfect sense, but you know, I appreciate as an adult, it doesn't.

1151
01:18:39.479 --> 01:18:46.560
But, you know, all the imagery with the watcher, the doctor standing on the bridge with his head in his hands and, you know, we can't hear it.

1152
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:47.699
Maybe you can do it, yes.

1153
01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:53.220
The scenes with the doctor and Adrik.

1154
01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:58.079
Tegan burst again and saying, I demand to speak to him and whoever's in charge of this shit.

1155
01:18:58.199 --> 01:19:02.460
The logopolitans themselves and their gentleness.

1156
01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:09.840
Yeah, there was there was just so much as a child that has kept this in my affections and it's only grown in my estimation.

1157
01:19:09.899 --> 01:19:11.279
I'm not blind to its faults, of course.

1158
01:19:11.340 --> 01:19:20.460
And you've got the radio technician who's listening to classical music and the doctor the doctor has to knock him out to stop the master killing him.

1159
01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:22.560
The master's just like, well, that saves an awkward conversation.

1160
01:19:22.619 --> 01:19:23.939
It's really great.

1161
01:19:24.000 --> 01:19:24.359
Todd.

1162
01:19:24.420 --> 01:19:25.500
You wrote to say something.

1163
01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:28.560
I think you, is it taken?

1164
01:19:28.619 --> 01:19:30.539
fantasy who's ever in charge.

1165
01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:31.439
That's right.

1166
01:19:31.500 --> 01:19:33.060
Should that be who, Matt?

1167
01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:35.939
You know, when she says, my name, my name is Tika Javanka.

1168
01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:36.300
Yeah.

1169
01:19:36.359 --> 01:19:38.220
Like, that's just...

1170
01:19:38.279 --> 01:19:41.640
And then saying, oh, that looks just so real.

1171
01:19:41.699 --> 01:19:42.539
We're gonna keep it in.

1172
01:19:43.859 --> 01:19:48.720
I'm glad you did that for your intro because I was going to steal it for mine, so I'm glad I didn't.

1173
01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:51.239
Ah, right.

1174
01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:53.340
I think it's time for...

1175
01:19:53.340 --> 01:19:54.119
Pix of the week.

1176
01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:55.439
Pix of the week, pix of the week first.

1177
01:19:55.500 --> 01:19:57.060
I might jump in first.

1178
01:19:57.180 --> 01:19:59.279
This is a bit of self-pomotion.

1179
01:19:59.340 --> 01:20:05.760
A couple of months ago, a book came out called Avenger World, The Avengers in Our Lives. which is a charity anthology.

1180
01:20:05.819 --> 01:20:07.739
I submitted an essay too.

1181
01:20:07.800 --> 01:20:19.560
And it also features friends of the podcast, Alan and Alice Hayes, and Robert Fairclough, as well as it's got the son of Avengers writer Roger Marshall, Rodney Marshall.

1182
01:20:19.619 --> 01:20:20.279
He written for it.

1183
01:20:20.340 --> 01:20:26.520
Dick Fitty from the BFI has written it for it, as well as Avengers, Research and writer Dave Rogers.

1184
01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:28.739
There's quite a few names in here.

1185
01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:35.460
And what it is, it's um, various writers talking about their personal experience with the Avengers.

1186
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:37.920
It's all about Dr. Who.

1187
01:20:37.979 --> 01:20:40.560
Well worth reading just for that alone.

1188
01:20:40.619 --> 01:20:43.140
Doctor Who's surprisingly mentioned a few times.

1189
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:44.939
It's available in hardback and paperback.

1190
01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:47.880
It's not available to an e-book because it is for charity.

1191
01:20:47.939 --> 01:20:54.359
All proceeds go towards champion Chanzige, which is a charity who works with schools in Tanzania.

1192
01:20:54.420 --> 01:20:59.880
And we've actually already bought primary school a freshwater pump for their school.

1193
01:20:59.939 --> 01:21:04.619
We've raised almost £700 to date buying those books.

1194
01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:09.899
So we'll include the links for that, but it's a, the hardcover is lovely.

1195
01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:12.600
The cover design looks like an old 70s annual.

1196
01:21:12.659 --> 01:21:17.579
This is lovely artwork cover that's been drawn by one of the writers.

1197
01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:19.260
Please do check that out.

1198
01:21:19.319 --> 01:21:26.819
And also, if you buy it through Lulu, the publisher. sign up to their mailing list first, wait about half an hour, the Lulu.

1199
01:21:26.880 --> 01:21:28.079
Is that what she's doing now?

1200
01:21:28.140 --> 01:21:28.979
That's what she's doing.

1201
01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:31.439
They'll usually send you some sort of discount voucher.

1202
01:21:31.500 --> 01:21:32.640
But yes, that's my recommendation.

1203
01:21:32.699 --> 01:21:34.199
Avenger World, the Avengers in our lives.

1204
01:21:34.260 --> 01:21:43.560
It's got stories from the UK, various parts of Europe, so Russia, Italy, France, Spain, Australia, America, you know, Avengers fans all over the world.

1205
01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:48.060
I was going to pick Doctor Who in 10 seconds, but I reckon that guy's getting far too much exposure.

1206
01:21:48.119 --> 01:22:08.220
So I'm instead going to choose another podcast on a cult TV favourite, which is called The Greatest Generation, and it's 2 guys who have a Star Trek podcast and they're a bit embarrassed about having a Star Trek podcast.

1207
01:22:08.340 --> 01:22:10.800
Are there Americans, they're TV professionals.

1208
01:22:10.859 --> 01:22:12.300
I think they're really funny.

1209
01:22:12.300 --> 01:22:18.659
As we record, they've just started season 2 of Star Trek, the next generation, they're putting it out really regularly.

1210
01:22:18.720 --> 01:22:22.979
If you like this, then you'll probably enjoy that more.

1211
01:22:26.100 --> 01:22:28.319
Well, if it's not who related.

1212
01:22:28.380 --> 01:22:37.979
And since we've talked about season 18, I'm currently reading Dr. Jule Lepore's true history of Wonder Woman, and the story behind William Moulton Mast, and I'm actually reading three books on this.

1213
01:22:38.100 --> 01:22:45.899
The other one is the Golden Thread by our very own Dr. Philip Sandy neck beard fur, sound of fur.

1214
01:22:45.960 --> 01:22:49.500
And he, it's really interesting on the beginning of feminism.

1215
01:22:49.560 --> 01:22:58.680
And since, I suppose, Doctor Who is going to be about whatever the voice of feminism was at this point, as we've had Romana.

1216
01:22:58.739 --> 01:23:03.479
We've had Lita, Sarah, Lita, both Romanas, and now we have Tegan.

1217
01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:07.020
So we do have somewhat of a parallel of that.

1218
01:23:07.079 --> 01:23:08.159
It's really interesting.

1219
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:10.319
I thoroughly recommend it to a laport.

1220
01:23:10.380 --> 01:23:13.319
It talks about the invention of the lie detector.

1221
01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:27.539
It talks about a whole lot of other deviant subjects that were also included in that, but it, if you're up for that kind of thing, but it does, it does actually talk about the beginnings of feminism in the 20th century in a literary vein.

1222
01:23:27.779 --> 01:23:29.460
And comics.

1223
01:23:29.520 --> 01:23:30.600
Hmm.

1224
01:23:30.720 --> 01:23:42.479
I'm going to suggest that people check out an album called Heartthrob, which was released in 2013, by Canadian twin sisters, and their names are Tegan and Sarah.

1225
01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:50.819
No H on the Sarah, but anyway, I think somebody's parents were Doctor Who fans at this point.

1226
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:51.300
I reckon.

1227
01:23:51.359 --> 01:23:58.739
So, um, yeah, I love the album and particularly the song, I was a fool, who will be one of my favourite words.

1228
01:23:58.800 --> 01:24:00.420
A link of this.

1229
01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:02.699
So, yes, Tegan and Sarah check them out.

1230
01:24:02.760 --> 01:24:04.380
They've actually got a new album coming out soon too.

1231
01:24:04.439 --> 01:24:05.579
So look out for that one.

1232
01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:10.500
Springboarding off that when I was a tour guide at Sydney Tower Restaurants.

1233
01:24:11.159 --> 01:24:15.479
We had a couple of sisters working for us, Tegan and Sarah.

1234
01:24:15.720 --> 01:24:18.659
And their parents were Doctor Who fans.

1235
01:24:18.720 --> 01:24:24.420
And then one day when we were taking a group of school children up in the lift to the restaurant about 14 years old.

1236
01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:29.159
There was a bit of a commotion in the back of the lift and one of the girls said, Adrix, stop poking me.

1237
01:24:29.220 --> 01:24:29.880
No.

1238
01:24:29.939 --> 01:24:34.439
And I just I just sort of whipped my head around and he said, yes.

1239
01:24:34.500 --> 01:24:36.539
I said, did she call you Adrick?

1240
01:24:36.600 --> 01:24:38.399
My parents are Doctor Who fans.

1241
01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:40.920
I don't think he was.

1242
01:24:40.979 --> 01:24:41.819
Okay.

1243
01:24:43.380 --> 01:24:48.239
That could be my puzzling creative choice for this season, but it's not. level of cruelty.

1244
01:24:48.779 --> 01:24:51.600
So my puzzling creative choice.

1245
01:24:51.779 --> 01:24:55.500
And I apologise if I'm stealing anyone else's.

1246
01:24:55.619 --> 01:24:58.680
But it's got to be Edward Underdown.

1247
01:24:58.979 --> 01:25:02.520
Way back in the day, way back in the day, yeah.

1248
01:25:02.579 --> 01:25:03.180
Yeah, yeah.

1249
01:25:03.239 --> 01:25:07.020
Because he's not a terrible actor, but for God's sake.

1250
01:25:07.140 --> 01:25:08.100
He's a radio actor.

1251
01:25:08.159 --> 01:25:08.819
What is he doing?

1252
01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:12.239
He's reading it as if he's immerging his lines.

1253
01:25:12.420 --> 01:25:13.739
He's doing the accent.

1254
01:25:14.039 --> 01:25:17.699
Yeah, especially when you're on screen with bloody Jackie Hill.

1255
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:19.800
She's going to act you off the bloody planet.

1256
01:25:19.859 --> 01:25:22.140
So yeah, Edward underdown.

1257
01:25:22.199 --> 01:25:24.600
I don't like to speak ill of it, but you were so good in the Avengers.

1258
01:25:24.659 --> 01:25:25.619
What happened?

1259
01:25:25.680 --> 01:25:26.880
He was dead in this.

1260
01:25:26.939 --> 01:25:27.899
There you go.

1261
01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:31.859
So I think my puzzling creative choice.

1262
01:25:31.920 --> 01:25:39.359
We said it when we were doing Megloss and I don't know whether I want to stick by it, but this is as close as I've gone to a Jenny Land Award candidate.

1263
01:25:39.420 --> 01:25:40.560
So I'm going to go with it.

1264
01:25:40.619 --> 01:25:47.579
It is casting Jacqueline Hill as Lexa, because it just makes me sad to watch Meg Gloss.

1265
01:25:47.640 --> 01:25:49.079
It does.

1266
01:25:49.140 --> 01:25:57.359
But, see, the difficulty is, that I don't think I wanted Barbara to come back and meet Tom and stuff.

1267
01:25:57.420 --> 01:25:59.100
Like, I just think that would be terrible.

1268
01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:18.060
And as we said, in the podcast, she lifts that part and makes Lexa so charismatic and so smart and so likeable, which are all playing against the tired, you know, concept of the character from the script, but in fact, I think she does improve it.

1269
01:26:18.119 --> 01:26:22.680
So, yeah, so it's an initially puzzling creative choice.

1270
01:26:25.739 --> 01:26:31.199
I haven't been doing this season, so only just watching it from sidelines with you.

1271
01:26:31.260 --> 01:26:34.020
I certainly agree with the Jackie Hill one.

1272
01:26:34.020 --> 01:26:34.680
That would have been mine.

1273
01:26:34.739 --> 01:26:38.520
So, from that, I just say the way they've wound it up.

1274
01:26:38.579 --> 01:26:51.600
It didn't quite feel, it went in the right direction, although we were, like, Regopolis as a story, actually, we, like, keeper of track and the state of decay, the best of this season just had so much imagery and redolence, and really worked.

1275
01:26:51.720 --> 01:27:01.800
Doctor Who stories work when they work on atmosphere and how they make you feel, not so much what they say or what they do, although they are integral to that.

1276
01:27:01.859 --> 01:27:05.279
And Magopolis succeeds then in episode one to do that.

1277
01:27:05.340 --> 01:27:11.699
But I think my puzzling creative choice is that Bidmead just thought that humour didn't belong in Doctor Who anymore.

1278
01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:18.960
Because I think that actually would have helped the ratings sailed through, and I think there are reasons which we'll get to next year of why he left.

1279
01:27:19.020 --> 01:27:23.699
And we'll talk about that, and yeah, you can't...

1280
01:27:23.819 --> 01:27:33.420
My problem with my puzzling grave choice in the end, I'm sorry to take so long to get there, is Bidmeat himself. and that he didn't line his trajectory up.

1281
01:27:33.479 --> 01:27:34.079
He missed the shot.

1282
01:27:34.140 --> 01:27:35.819
He didn't quite get.

1283
01:27:36.060 --> 01:27:38.520
I don't know that he even does now.

1284
01:27:38.640 --> 01:27:44.340
Lala's quite strong on what she thinks about Bidmead's opinions and directions, so I let her speak, say it instead.

1285
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:46.439
But you know, it's quite accessible.

1286
01:27:46.500 --> 01:27:47.939
She'll say it to anyone.

1287
01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:51.180
We'll have to have the explicit tag.

1288
01:27:51.239 --> 01:27:52.680
Well, maybe.

1289
01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:54.060
I love her. a strong woman.

1290
01:27:54.119 --> 01:27:57.960
But it's just along the lines of, yeah, we need a bit of light here, guys.

1291
01:27:58.020 --> 01:27:58.859
You need a bit of fun.

1292
01:27:58.920 --> 01:28:01.260
It's great to be clever. but clever without humour.

1293
01:28:01.380 --> 01:28:04.739
Clever with humour is the top end of the Avengers.

1294
01:28:04.800 --> 01:28:07.979
Clever without humour is where we got to in this season.

1295
01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:10.079
And the audience figures agree.

1296
01:28:12.060 --> 01:28:14.460
Wow, this is, this is tough.

1297
01:28:14.579 --> 01:28:17.220
I had a few, but I was considering.

1298
01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:23.939
One is putting all the companions in costumes, but I don't think we're aware of that yet.

1299
01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:24.840
No.

1300
01:28:24.840 --> 01:28:28.800
The casting of Matthew Waterhouse is another.

1301
01:28:28.859 --> 01:28:32.640
Yeah, you know, I think that's...

1302
01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:41.039
I don't mean to be horrible to Matthew or anything like that, but I think we've had better younger actors this season and last season than him and why is that?

1303
01:28:41.159 --> 01:28:50.880
But I guess I'm going to go with the visual thing and it's those bloody blonde wigs in megans. are palling beyond all belief.

1304
01:28:50.939 --> 01:28:52.560
That's my creative puzzle.

1305
01:28:52.979 --> 01:28:57.899
I think that's the 1st time one story has received 3 Gen.

1306
01:28:57.960 --> 01:29:00.479
It's not such a terrible story.

1307
01:29:00.539 --> 01:29:02.760
No, no, no, just No, we defended it?

1308
01:29:02.819 --> 01:29:04.560
Just very puzzling.

1309
01:29:22.619 --> 01:29:27.779
Next week, dear listeners, we will be back with our Tom Baker retrospective.

1310
01:29:27.779 --> 01:29:39.899
And also, to give you an idea of a few things that are coming up, after the Tom Baker perspective, we'll be releasing flight through entirety's first commentary track, that classic Christmas special, canine and company.

1311
01:29:40.020 --> 01:29:41.039
Oh my goodness.

1312
01:29:41.100 --> 01:29:44.100
Are we actually going to be, I actually have to watch it. again?

1313
01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:44.460
Yes.

1314
01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:46.020
Oh, I wrote notes.

1315
01:29:46.079 --> 01:29:46.920
Oh this is terrible.

1316
01:29:48.420 --> 01:29:54.000
And before we head into Peter Davidson with Castra Valva.

1317
01:29:54.060 --> 01:30:02.100
Until then, you can find us online at flatthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

1318
01:30:02.159 --> 01:30:05.399
Don't forget about our new video series, Doctor Who in 10 seconds.

1319
01:30:05.460 --> 01:30:19.560
And also over on Bondfinger, we have just started the Roger Moore era with Live and Let Die, and we also have all the Sean Connery's films, George Lathamby and David Neven and Casino Royale as commentary tracks.

1320
01:30:19.619 --> 01:30:26.279
So you can find those on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

1321
01:30:26.340 --> 01:30:31.920
Until next week, may none of your radio telescopes cause the sudden collapse of the universe.

1322
01:30:31.979 --> 01:30:33.119
Thank you very much for listening.

1323
01:30:33.180 --> 01:30:33.720
Good night.

1324
01:30:33.779 --> 01:30:34.319
Good night.

1325
01:30:34.380 --> 01:30:35.220
See you soon.

1326
01:30:35.279 --> 01:30:35.760
Good night.

1327
01:30:41.880 --> 01:30:47.880
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd Beelby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1328
01:30:47.939 --> 01:30:52.979
This episode, full of orphans, was recorded on May 1st, 2016.

1329
01:30:53.159 --> 01:30:55.680
The next episode will be released on May 29th.

1330
01:30:55.739 --> 01:31:03.779
We dedicate this episode to the memory of senior cameraman and camera supervisor Alec Wheel, who worked on 148 episodes of Doctor Who throughout the 1980s.

1331
01:31:09.899 --> 01:31:12.420
Legopolis, May the 1st.

1332
01:31:12.539 --> 01:31:16.560
I really think we should have recorded Keeper of Triathon first, though.

1333
01:31:16.619 --> 01:31:17.880
Shut up, Nathan.

1334
01:31:17.939 --> 01:31:19.800
Jesus.

1335
01:31:22.020 --> 01:31:29.939
Actually, I'm just thinking, when we get into, when we get into Davidson, should we record Ford of Doomsday first, then the visitation, then Kinder?

1336
01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:30.539
Yes.

1337
01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:32.760
Yeah, then release them.

1338
01:31:32.819 --> 01:31:34.020
Yes, in that order, yeah.