WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:15:31

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Your Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast for whom the Second Law of

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Thermodynamics is taking its toll on us.

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Entropy increases.

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The more you put things together, the more they fall apart and

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never a truer word was spoken about Australian politics in the

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last 10 years.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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My name is Todd.

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And I beg's not the Edric.

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Since there's 4 of us.

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Hello.

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Well, you do look good in a tule skirt.

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Anissa reference, dear.

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All 4 of us are here together to bid a very fond, possibly overdue

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farewell for Tom Baker in his...

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He's still alive.

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He won't eat.

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In his swamp song, logo polis, according to the ABC.

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Now, as this is such a big story in the history of Doctor Who, and

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all four of us are here, decided to format this episode slightly

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differently.

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So I'll be asking you questions about your reaction.

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And there's also another reason for this, which I'll elaborate on

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in a few minutes, I'm in charge.

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But I would like to, I would like to actually start with you

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Todd.

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Oh.

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Yes, Brendan. feel like I'm at school.

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Now, um, You wouldn't know, dear, this, no, this is a room full of

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3 teachers and naughty me.

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The great architect.

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Emphasis on the art.

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Can we talk about Archer?

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Are we doing phrases?

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Todd, on first broadcast.

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What was your emotional reaction to this story?

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Whilst it's been broadcast.

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I've forgotten that the doctor, I've mentioned in previews, the

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podcast that I sort of worked out that Tom was leaving, although I

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didn't know and I've forgotten about it.

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So with this, there's a lot of foreshadowing, a lot of lines that

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sort of indicate that the end is nine.

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But I was in denial of that.

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So emotionally, I was okay, but with a sense of sort of dread, like

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I was thinking, this is not going to end well.

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Like, and of course that increases.

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And I was obviously excited about Tegan, I think by, you know, by

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the time she joins, having an Australian on board, I really, really

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liked that.

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But, um, I was devastated at the end, utterly internally

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devastated.

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I had tears.

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Absolutely distort.

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And I think that does influence my thoughts on the next doctor

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because I don't think I ever really got over Tom Leeding for a

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very long time.

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Right.

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Richard, how about you?

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Same question.

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It's really interesting.

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When these 1st brand, they held us off for a year and we got the

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adventures of Monkey and Tripper Tucker and Sandy and Pixie and

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all of that, so it wasn't so bad, but we were really missing

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Doctor Who.

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And then bang wham in 1982, we had season 18 and 19 back to back.

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So it was less than 24 hours between my 1st impression at the time

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was one of gross impatience.

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Really wanted them to hurry up because I wanted to see what the

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new the new guy was like.

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It felt pretty much exactly as it felt this time.

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It was a terrific 1st opener and just like Aunt Vanessa's saggy

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inner tube.

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It just plodded along for the next three.

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It felt pretty interminable.

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But what a zinger of an episode one.

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It really had me.

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I'd never seen anything like it before on Doctor Who.

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And yet, every little meanie thing in it, right from the copper in

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front of the police box, as the very first shot, you know, and

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then the Farris project is, ooh, I wonder if the master's going to

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be...

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I getting all my bits in first, listener.

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No, that's actually what I was thinking.

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And what surprised, well, I guess the biggest thing, like for Todd

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because, you know, I'm the eldest at the table.

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I know you wouldn't know to look at us, but I am.

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Um, it's because this is radio, yeah.

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You get it?

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You get it?

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What can I say?

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Working in TV's age, like an old vibe or?

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Yeah, but I think I was her daughter.

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It's a really good question. to go back because this is how much

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is of this of Doctor Who is nostalgia, I would say more than 90% of

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it.

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I wonder how I'm going to feel about the new series and what

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you're going to say, because it's so recent.

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But for this one, what was amazing is that it's felt exactly the

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same.

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I had exactly the same reactions.

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I wonder if you did too talk.

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It brings back all those feelings and foreshadowing and sort of

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not quite to the same extent, obviously, as the 1st time round.

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But it's still there.

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I was still, you know, I was a bit more excited at the end of this

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I think, because I wanted to see what, um, beautifully done. what

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Davidson's going to do.

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Yeah, yeah.

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You know, at Momey in London in 1991, the Museum of the Mutant

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Moving, in which they had a Doctor Who display, you know?

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Do you remember any of this?

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And hey, this was on a loop.

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If you'd gone there, and there were middle-aged women in tears

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looking at Tom Baker.

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Tom would probably say it's not an uncommon.

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But yeah, yeah, people were crying standing around it and there's

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a little fan, but I thought, yeah, I'm with you.

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Yeah, yeah, it was good drama.

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Nathan, what was your reaction?

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Because, of course, you got to meet Tom Baker.

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Whereas Richard didn't.

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That's right.

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I was the watcher all the time.

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I have no memory of recording last week's episode, so I can't

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remember. and watching that at all.

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So I don't know what my what my reaction was.

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I really liked season 18 on 1st broadcast a lot.

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And I still like it now for the same reasons.

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Am I, I liked your podcast more than the scene, actually walks

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challenging, and I've got to say, this season you've made it a lot

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of it more fun.

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I remember it.

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The thing that I identified in our leisure hive episode was that

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there's a real attempt to be visually interesting.

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And by this time of the season, there's, um, it's a big connected

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story ever since, um, I guess, full circle, we've been telling one

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story and Doctor Who hasn't done that since the 60s.

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I think.

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It doesn't even really do that in the 60s, but, you know, the 60s

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you've got one story bleeding into another.

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So, I think that I found that culmination pretty satisfying.

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And I knew that Tom was leaving and I, we knew that Pete was

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coming because, you know, it was so many years later that we, that

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we actually got it.

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Part of the reason I asked this was quite often when we're

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planning a podcast, and I say to Rod, oh, this weekend we'll be

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recording a podcast, even though he doesn't listen to the podcast

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he says to me, oh, which stories are you doing?

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And I said Megopolis.

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And he said, oh, okay.

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Because he moved to the UK for a few years of 1984.

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So this was shortly before he stopped watching for a while because

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he was going out partying and things.

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But I, I just kind of said, what was your reaction to Megopolis?

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Because, you know, he was about 22 at the time and he's like, But

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he didn't know that Tom was leaving.

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For a start.

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But he said something very interesting because he he's not a fan

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in the way that we are fans, you know.

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He also doesn't listen to the podcast.

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Yes, indeed.

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Well, he's just a very visual person.

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Like, he can't do the audios, but he loves the recons, which I

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know you're the complete opposite, Richard, but we won't change

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that right now.

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But what he said was...

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He wasn't sad at all because and this is possibly because he's not

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a huge fan.

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He never views the regeneration as a death of the character.

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He just views it as we're getting a new version of the character.

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Like he doesn't understand people getting upset about the doctor

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leaving.

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Yeah, but that's a standard casual viewers reference though, isn't

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it?

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They're not going to get feelings emotional.

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I think that we've talked about this because I always get upset

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when the companions leave, but not when the doctor regenerates.

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Like, of course, you've got a black heart.

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I was I'm still inconsolable about Martha and don't get me started

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about Barbara and...

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No, I'm sure she's still in the target.

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There's some notty tendrils in a bit recording. be played by

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Stephanie Cole.

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Oh, wish.

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The only regeneration that I really got upset at.

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I agree.

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I mean, always so sad at John's and was quite being younger. but I

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don't know whether I was as teary. was sort of like, because I

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think I'd seen Tom already.

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Like, I think I've discussed this.

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I could never remember which one I'd seen first, but I know that

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Tom was coming, so I wasn't quite the same, whereas with this, I

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didn't know who was coming.

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I didn't know the certainty was leaving.

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It's like, you know, Sarah leaving or whatever, like that.

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I mean, this is our 1st proper regeneration, really, isn't it?

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It is for me.

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I started watching Doctor Who in 1978.

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Um, you know, I saw repeats of per twee stories.

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So, but they were the only 2 doctors I'd seen, but all the time

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I'd been watching it had been Tom.

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So it's the 1st regeneration I experienced.

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Was it your 1st brand?

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Well, that's that's the other reason I asked this question because

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I came to Doctor Who in, Well, no, before 1988, because that had

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all these off-air recordings, but that means it's kind of like

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that scene at the end of Star Trek 2 where they say of Spock, he's

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not dead so long as we remember him.

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Because that's the thing.

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I would just dip in and out of Doctor Who.

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You know, I could watch the mind of evil, then robot, then

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Legopolis, but then double back to the robot operation.

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Regenerations have never quite had that same effect on me.

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They don't upset me.

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I get caught up in the emotion and, you know, yes, I cry during

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John's regeneration, during Tom's regeneration and the new series

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ones.

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It's it's more...

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The reaction to an emotional performance and direction, especially

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music.

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The music in this one.

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Nicely pointed out.

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Patty Kingsland really pulls it off.

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Well, we're on episode 4 with that before we've gone to episode

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one.

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Oh, no, but I just wanted to...

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I just wanted to start with a bang.

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Well, to finish off your bang for you.

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I don't have to say, I'm the only one at the table that this is my

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2nd life too.

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Well, 1st generation, because I started watching in 74, 75

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properly.

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So yeah, I did see the perfectly on the 1st broadcast.

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And it was extraordinary.

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But for a child of 7 or 8.

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What was, and that's the perfect age to start watching Doctor Who

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you ask any of the, be it big name fans?

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say, you know, seven, eight, nine.

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They all got into it.

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And I think it's because you're most emotionally open and, I mean

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if you want to say vulnerable of these kinds of characters and

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driven stories.

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That's another thing.

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This is a character driven story because you can't find a plot in

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this one.

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But it was the moodiness of the story that was actually more

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powerful for me in spiders than the actual regeneration.

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Or you could say they, or you could say they dovetailed

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beautifully.

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And the moodiness and the atmosphere and John Durth's performance

253
00:11:57.539 --> 00:11:58.440
and all the rest of it.

254
00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:01.080
And I really want Liz's performance in that final scene.

255
00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:02.279
And Liz is extraordinary.

256
00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:03.960
In fact, everyone's pretty damn good in that.

257
00:12:04.019 --> 00:12:06.720
There's maybe one or two, but, you know, and I and I reckon that

258
00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:11.399
maybe Lett's had a bigger hand in this than the law states because

259
00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:13.500
it had a very similar feeling.

260
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.340
There's the windswept use of a lot of outside broadcast.

261
00:12:17.399 --> 00:12:20.039
There's a lot of long distance shots.

262
00:12:20.100 --> 00:12:23.580
There's a lot of bleakness, there's a lot of overexposure in the

263
00:12:23.580 --> 00:12:26.340
camera, and maybe that's just England on a bright day, but that

264
00:12:26.340 --> 00:12:30.659
white gray sky is everywhere, the white gray face of Tom perfectly

265
00:12:30.659 --> 00:12:34.440
reflects it, white gray hair, he's white gray, disinterested in

266
00:12:34.440 --> 00:12:35.279
what's going on.

267
00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:37.620
He's kind of a walking cadaver from episode one.

268
00:12:38.460 --> 00:12:39.899
Really?

269
00:12:39.960 --> 00:12:43.620
I really feel, yeah, and it felt, and it felt like a pain into

270
00:12:43.620 --> 00:12:44.279
mourning.

271
00:12:44.340 --> 00:12:47.340
It was very, that Lala's words keep coming back.

272
00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:49.259
Romana's words, do you have a death wish?

273
00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:52.200
It's a great line back in state of decay, is it?

274
00:12:52.259 --> 00:12:53.399
Warriors Gate.

275
00:12:53.460 --> 00:12:54.120
Warriors Gate.

276
00:12:54.179 --> 00:12:57.000
Well, yeah, she should know because, you know, they just got

277
00:12:57.000 --> 00:12:57.299
married.

278
00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:00.779
But yeah, that's that. isn't there?

279
00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:05.460
I really felt this was as as poignant as spiders was.

280
00:13:06.899 --> 00:13:11.039
Okay, so my next question, I'll start with you, Nathan.

281
00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:14.820
In terms of changing of the guard and changing of the doctor.

282
00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:18.360
John Nathan Turner was very sensitive to the fact that with so

283
00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.299
much having changed in the program, this other massive change

284
00:13:21.299 --> 00:13:24.000
could have driven away long-term viewers.

285
00:13:24.059 --> 00:13:26.460
So he was determined that there would be as much continuity as

286
00:13:26.460 --> 00:13:28.320
possible going over the regeneration.

287
00:13:28.379 --> 00:13:32.940
So he did approach Elizabeth Sladen to return as Sarah Jane Smith

288
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:38.580
and also Louise Jameson to return as Leila, possibly just for the

289
00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:43.080
3 stories bridging the regeneration, both of them said, no, we're

290
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:43.740
not coming back.

291
00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:48.840
So he had Matthew Waterhouse, the new character of Tegan or Joe

292
00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:52.620
Vanka, who Christopher Bidney misunderstood who named her Tegan

293
00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:53.519
Joe Vanka.

294
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:56.100
And...

295
00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:57.659
Such a wanker.

296
00:13:58.019 --> 00:13:59.460
Sorry.

297
00:13:59.519 --> 00:14:01.620
I'm channelling Janet.

298
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:07.440
And that was also part of the reason he decided to bring back

299
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.279
Sarah Sutton, which meant that they had to keep paying Johnny

300
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.340
Byrne for the use of her character.

301
00:14:14.399 --> 00:14:18.360
He thought, if I can't have a recognisable face from a few years

302
00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:23.759
ago that long-term fans will note, I will have more characters for

303
00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:25.200
the audience to get familiar with.

304
00:14:25.259 --> 00:14:26.759
So my question to you, Nathan is.

305
00:14:26.820 --> 00:14:31.620
We have the return of NISA, the continuation of Adric, and Tegan

306
00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:32.340
coming in as well.

307
00:14:32.399 --> 00:14:36.659
What do you think of this dynamic of these 3 young companions?

308
00:14:36.779 --> 00:14:40.139
Well, I just think they're terrible, actually.

309
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:45.360
Like, I don't think anyone of them puts in a good performance.

310
00:14:45.419 --> 00:14:49.620
Maybe Sarah Sutton's all right in this story, but, um, But, you

311
00:14:49.620 --> 00:14:53.159
know, our drink is Andrew, and those scenes with Andrew and Tom

312
00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:57.299
are actually quite nice, you know, they're interminable.

313
00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:00.179
I mean, there's lots of sort of standing around in the TARDIS.

314
00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.360
This approach to the regeneration where you give people familiar

315
00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:07.980
things in order to ease the transition, I think, is a really good

316
00:15:07.980 --> 00:15:08.220
one.

317
00:15:08.340 --> 00:15:13.980
And when John leaves and Tom comes, Tom gets to do a John Pertuy

318
00:15:13.980 --> 00:15:18.000
story, you know, as his 1st story and he's the new thing in it.

319
00:15:18.059 --> 00:15:21.480
And I think we said that that kind of backfired a bit because he's

320
00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:25.139
so much more interesting than anyone else in it than the premise

321
00:15:25.139 --> 00:15:25.860
and everything.

322
00:15:25.919 --> 00:15:30.840
So he kind of makes having John Pertuis style stories sort of more

323
00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:33.480
or less completely impossible just from the 1st story.

324
00:15:33.539 --> 00:15:38.279
Here, what happens is happening in reverse, where the Peter

325
00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:42.480
Davison era is being assembled around Tom and Tom is being frozen

326
00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:42.840
out.

327
00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:47.159
And, you know, your comment, Richard, about him being cadaverous.

328
00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:50.700
I actually quite like this sort of lugubrious, distant Tom.

329
00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.279
I think that's a good take on the character.

330
00:15:53.340 --> 00:15:58.320
So I think it works for him in that his time on the show is over

331
00:15:58.320 --> 00:16:02.519
and his whole era is just being deconstructed around him.

332
00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:04.799
He's lost Romana, he's lost canine.

333
00:16:04.860 --> 00:16:08.399
There's all these why are all these young people in my TARDIS, you

334
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:08.580
know?

335
00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:13.860
But I think the era that replaces this isn't a great one and and

336
00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:17.639
so we are losing something that is... don't know that when we're

337
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:18.120
watching.

338
00:16:18.179 --> 00:16:19.200
No, that's true.

339
00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:20.519
Well, what did you feel?

340
00:16:20.580 --> 00:16:25.139
Well, it's memory cheats, but we were, no one had bubble memory in

341
00:16:25.139 --> 00:16:25.799
1980.

342
00:16:26.460 --> 00:16:27.600
Bubble memory.

343
00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:28.440
It's just flash.

344
00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:30.960
It's like it's like flash memory.

345
00:16:31.019 --> 00:16:32.220
It was such an exciting thing.

346
00:16:32.279 --> 00:16:34.379
It had to be, it had to be mentioned.

347
00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.080
Was it really a real term?

348
00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:38.159
It was a massive, massive problem.

349
00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:41.159
Computers didn't have backup, at least home computers didn't, so

350
00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:42.480
you had to put it on a cassette.

351
00:16:42.539 --> 00:16:45.000
You have to give the cathedral on the cassette to remember what

352
00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:46.139
you'd worked on that, though.

353
00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:49.080
But it's just it's just the memory that the storage in our iPhones

354
00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.840
are now, MacBooks and our USB drives.

355
00:16:51.899 --> 00:16:53.159
Other phones are.

356
00:16:53.220 --> 00:16:54.419
I just saw another...

357
00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:56.159
I just thought it was another big mean little one.

358
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.240
Well, it is that too. magical term that's going to make it sound

359
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:00.960
more scientific.

360
00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:03.899
When science is more fun than plot.

361
00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:06.180
Allegedly.

362
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.640
But you were what were we on about this?

363
00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:13.380
We're about the companions and what you think of that dynamic and

364
00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:16.559
that sort of thing. should be fabulous. 12, don't you think?

365
00:17:16.619 --> 00:17:19.440
I mean, we're back to 1960 and we've got a full crew.

366
00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:20.579
We aren't.

367
00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:21.960
I don't think we are.

368
00:17:22.019 --> 00:17:25.680
And the reason is that Barbara and Ian are recognisable characters

369
00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:28.740
and then Susan for the doctor's granddaughter.

370
00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.819
We have sort of 3 high concept people who have no particular

371
00:17:32.819 --> 00:17:35.279
relationship.

372
00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.039
Yeah, who are wearing the same clothes every week.

373
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:44.099
Um, you know, and who aren't putting in good performances, really.

374
00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:46.619
The best performer is Sarah Sutton, and she's the one most

375
00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:47.940
frequently sidelined.

376
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.819
And yeah, I agree, and she shouldn't be because she's the best

377
00:17:50.819 --> 00:17:51.720
actor, mostly.

378
00:17:51.779 --> 00:17:55.380
I guess I have a slightly different take on it than what you guys

379
00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:55.619
have.

380
00:17:55.680 --> 00:17:59.099
I think this is Matthew Waterhouse's best performance adopt 2.

381
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:02.039
And I also think that the character of Patrick is written the best

382
00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:02.940
in this story.

383
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:06.420
And it's just so, I mentioned last week that, you know, I thought

384
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:10.200
that Adrick was good in keeper of Truck, and Matthew was improving

385
00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:10.619
it.

386
00:18:10.619 --> 00:18:13.019
And I think here his whole dynamic with Truck was really, really

387
00:18:13.019 --> 00:18:13.200
good.

388
00:18:13.259 --> 00:18:16.079
And you have had him in for 20 episodes.

389
00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:17.819
Therefore, he's an identifiable figure.

390
00:18:17.880 --> 00:18:20.819
Mister, of course, I always think that Sarah Sutton does a pretty

391
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:21.240
good job.

392
00:18:21.299 --> 00:18:24.599
I mean, her experience as an actress, but she's often sidelined.

393
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:26.640
At this point, you know, she comes halfway in the story.

394
00:18:26.700 --> 00:18:30.539
But it is a case, I think, of Don Nathan Turner's said we're

395
00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:33.420
bringing back the master, Bid Meats, put him in truck, and so

396
00:18:33.420 --> 00:18:37.500
therefore, you know, because the master is suddenly her dead

397
00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:43.140
father, you to up the emotional stakes, he needs to bring her into

398
00:18:43.140 --> 00:18:44.400
the story without missa.

399
00:18:44.460 --> 00:18:47.880
If you take this around the plot of what there is, there's

400
00:18:47.880 --> 00:18:50.940
suddenly a lot less, like if you just get rid of that stuff, what's

401
00:18:50.940 --> 00:18:52.019
going to replace it, you know?

402
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.160
I do think, though, that her reaction to the death of her father

403
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:57.900
and then the destruction of her planet.

404
00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.220
You know, she gets a line and she gets a little acting moment, but

405
00:19:02.220 --> 00:19:03.839
then she's sort of quite jolly after that.

406
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:09.420
That's that's the crap thing about the 80s is that it Bidmead said

407
00:19:09.420 --> 00:19:13.140
when Loud Award said this is a terrible write-off, both for John

408
00:19:13.140 --> 00:19:14.039
Leeson.

409
00:19:14.039 --> 00:19:15.059
And myself.

410
00:19:15.059 --> 00:19:17.460
And he said, it's not a soap opera, my dear.

411
00:19:17.460 --> 00:19:19.859
And it's wishing your career is dead, mate.

412
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.579
And I, and you noticed that he didn't have much.

413
00:19:23.640 --> 00:19:24.539
I don't cross slower.

414
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:26.940
I mean, I take the plan.

415
00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:27.960
The same thing's happening here.

416
00:19:28.019 --> 00:19:29.279
It should be more of a soap.

417
00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:33.359
I want to see human reaction and it felt awful and weird at the

418
00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:33.599
time.

419
00:19:33.660 --> 00:19:35.279
We just didn't really get the words for it.

420
00:19:35.400 --> 00:19:37.500
Were you feeling it back then when you were watching it?

421
00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.019
The tracking thing is really hard because I was absolutely

422
00:19:40.019 --> 00:19:41.099
devastated by that.

423
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.299
That really, really set me after Lubic became keeper and I really

424
00:19:45.299 --> 00:19:47.339
wanted to see that world survive.

425
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:50.039
And it just, that was just devastating, right?

426
00:19:50.099 --> 00:19:55.380
And to see all that happen as a plot device, just to, yeah, as a

427
00:19:55.380 --> 00:19:56.519
as a clique. yeah.

428
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.700
You know, I think Sarah sells it as much as she can, but she can

429
00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:02.279
only do with what's written in front of her because there's so

430
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:02.819
much going on.

431
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.420
I mean, it really should be about, I really should be about Tom

432
00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:09.720
but in fact, you're trying to introduce her into the cast full

433
00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:11.819
time. then you've got the whole tank and thing.

434
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.559
You got to introduce a whole new companion.

435
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:14.759
I'm our story of a doctor.

436
00:20:14.819 --> 00:20:17.640
And I think it does sum up the 80s, really, where you suddenly

437
00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:20.940
have this huge cast changeover, like within, I mean, it'll happen

438
00:20:20.940 --> 00:20:21.660
with Peter as well.

439
00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:24.720
Like, within, like, all the stories ramping up to the end of the

440
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:27.299
doctor and it's sort of like, we need stability, not this constant

441
00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:29.519
quickly, we've got to write people out.

442
00:20:29.579 --> 00:20:33.779
I think it takes away from the time that should be Tom's time

443
00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:36.539
although I think, you know, I think his performance is fantastic.

444
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:38.220
It's subtle isn't it?

445
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:38.700
Yeah.

446
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:42.420
I guess the thing with Tegan, I was really excited, the fact that

447
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:44.819
it was going to be an Australian on board and I thought she was

448
00:20:44.819 --> 00:20:46.140
like gun ho and dynamic.

449
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:49.140
Looking back at it now and certainly I'm watching a bit ahead.

450
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:52.140
I think that Janet's performance is very broad.

451
00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:54.420
Yeah, it's really panto.

452
00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:55.140
It's not good.

453
00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:58.740
And I like her a lot and I like Tegan, by the way.

454
00:20:58.799 --> 00:20:59.700
She works it out.

455
00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:01.559
She works it out next season, I think after.

456
00:21:01.619 --> 00:21:05.519
Actually, I think it's when Tegans would be drunk in Black Awkward

457
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:06.539
and she's...

458
00:21:06.660 --> 00:21:08.640
No, she's really funny enlightened and everything.

459
00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:13.440
And after that, I think Janet works out how to balance being, you

460
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:17.099
know, mouth on legs, angry, not wanting to do things, wanting to

461
00:21:17.099 --> 00:21:19.740
leave much better when she's presented this within a script.

462
00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:22.440
But, you know, here she's having to deal with the fact that Tom is

463
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:23.880
leaving, right?

464
00:21:23.940 --> 00:21:25.799
Who's coming in to replace him?

465
00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:31.019
And all the others. whether, you know, it's much of an impact or

466
00:21:31.019 --> 00:21:33.180
not, have worked with each other in the previous story.

467
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:34.019
I don't know.

468
00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:35.940
So there is some sort of chemistry.

469
00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:36.960
She's got a lot to deal with.

470
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:40.259
Yeah, one I found so interesting about these, these multiple

471
00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:45.900
characters is the 1st episode is kind of all about Tom and Adrick

472
00:21:45.900 --> 00:21:50.579
together and they do have their lovely little scenes and Matthew

473
00:21:50.579 --> 00:21:51.359
Waterhouse.

474
00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:52.920
I think I agree with you, Tom.

475
00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:54.960
This is certainly one of his best performances.

476
00:21:55.019 --> 00:21:57.480
The 2nd episode is all about Tegan.

477
00:21:57.539 --> 00:22:00.299
Because, you know, she wanders into the TARDIS in the 1st episode

478
00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:03.180
but doesn't then interact with the plot until episode two.

479
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.859
Then the 3rd episode is all about Nissa, and Nissa discovering

480
00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:13.079
what's happened to her father, and it's, oh, it's so short-sighted

481
00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:16.980
the spoiler alert deal listeners, Anthony Ainley and Sarah Sutton

482
00:22:16.980 --> 00:22:20.519
gets so few scenes together after this story, because they...

483
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.700
They were really great together as Tree Mass and Nissa.

484
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:24.599
Yes, yes.

485
00:22:24.660 --> 00:22:28.019
And they're completely different together as the master and

486
00:22:28.019 --> 00:22:28.440
Nissa.

487
00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:31.319
And there's a change in his performance, of course.

488
00:22:31.380 --> 00:22:33.059
But there is a change in her performance too.

489
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.660
And for me, those 2 in episode 3 are the highlight of the

490
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:37.019
episode.

491
00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.579
And I agree with you, Nathan, that the whole thing of, you know, my

492
00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:43.019
planet's dead now.

493
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.140
It's a great moment at the time, but nothing really happens

494
00:22:46.140 --> 00:22:47.039
afterwards.

495
00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:50.579
But the scene where she walks up to him saying, you killed my

496
00:22:50.579 --> 00:22:51.059
father.

497
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:54.059
I think Sarah Sutton has really cottoned onto the fact that, you

498
00:22:54.059 --> 00:22:56.579
know, she comes from a culture where there is no, there is no

499
00:22:56.579 --> 00:22:59.759
violence and there is no avarice and greed.

500
00:22:59.819 --> 00:23:01.500
All frog and no gun.

501
00:23:01.559 --> 00:23:03.960
All frog and no guns. might have said, yeah.

502
00:23:04.019 --> 00:23:07.019
I see on her face that she's trying to process this strange

503
00:23:07.019 --> 00:23:11.400
emotion, this rage and grief and fear.

504
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:16.380
And then we get this wonderful moment from Tom where he's agreeing

505
00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:17.819
to work with the master.

506
00:23:17.819 --> 00:23:19.799
And I think this is a conscious thing.

507
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:22.619
You've got the 3 young companions saying, oh, but you can't do

508
00:23:22.619 --> 00:23:22.859
that.

509
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.200
You know, so they're like the new guards saying, you can't do

510
00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:25.500
that.

511
00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:28.200
He just turns around and rips them all, a new one.

512
00:23:28.259 --> 00:23:30.299
You don't tell me what to do.

513
00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:32.460
I'm going to go save the universe.

514
00:23:32.519 --> 00:23:32.880
Shut up.

515
00:23:32.940 --> 00:23:34.440
Shut up.

516
00:23:34.500 --> 00:23:35.759
So true.

517
00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:37.500
But that being said, I think...

518
00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:43.079
The 3 companions here are better balanced and are each given

519
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.319
something to do a bit more than will happen next year.

520
00:23:46.440 --> 00:23:48.779
I think that I think that's the thing.

521
00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.380
I think in this script they have that balance.

522
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.680
And I do think that they really struggle next year to get that and

523
00:23:55.680 --> 00:24:00.059
I think that is, you know, people get put to sleep for 4

524
00:24:00.059 --> 00:24:00.420
episodes.

525
00:24:00.480 --> 00:24:01.319
You know?

526
00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:03.059
You know what I'm saying.

527
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:05.099
It's just a viewer.

528
00:24:05.099 --> 00:24:05.759
Exactly.

529
00:24:05.819 --> 00:24:08.279
You really don't want to...

530
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:12.059
But Sarah's something I think is really good in the fact that she

531
00:24:12.059 --> 00:24:15.180
hangs on to that finger, even in Kestravalba in time flight.

532
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:18.359
Like she, she, there's this little subtle things when she's with

533
00:24:18.359 --> 00:24:21.539
Anthony Ainley or the milker or whatever, where it just comes to

534
00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:22.079
the floor.

535
00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:26.759
Because you don't get that from Tegan, and Tegan loses her.

536
00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:31.200
Auntie Vanessa. you know, in at the end of the 1st episode and she

537
00:24:31.200 --> 00:24:34.559
has a bit of a reaction to it, but then she's wandering around

538
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.460
doing sort of ludicrous panto recriminations.

539
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.119
Were you just doing the accent?

540
00:24:45.180 --> 00:24:49.680
It's interesting because as this is the 1st time that we were

541
00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:52.680
saying that a companion has ever discovered, what she thought was

542
00:24:52.680 --> 00:24:56.039
a police box and turns out to be the time since Dodo chat was.

543
00:24:56.099 --> 00:24:56.460
Yes.

544
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:00.420
And that's not the only parallel with this story.

545
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.720
I really do think that Janet is played by Jackie Lane for this

546
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:04.079
episode.

547
00:25:04.140 --> 00:25:06.900
The voice accents the whole...

548
00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:07.859
Why are you promoting?

549
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:08.880
is the JNT thing.

550
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:12.180
Doctor Who is not, sorry, a socialist principle, it's not a

551
00:25:12.180 --> 00:25:13.980
democracy, talent will up.

552
00:25:14.039 --> 00:25:16.859
You've got someone who's, does anyone else remember the Moon

553
00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:20.160
Stallion or Alice, the other Sarah's other things?

554
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.319
I've never ever seen them.

555
00:25:22.380 --> 00:25:23.279
I think I was just too young.

556
00:25:23.339 --> 00:25:24.059
I saw them.

557
00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:25.319
I remember them and they were amazing.

558
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:27.359
Sarah was extraordinary, sudden.

559
00:25:27.420 --> 00:25:28.920
It was extraordinary in these stallions.

560
00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:30.059
Well, my all time.

561
00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:32.220
Gary Russell, so it says the same thing.

562
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:35.460
Children of the Stones, he really likes, and Moonstone.

563
00:25:35.519 --> 00:25:36.420
We both really like it.

564
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.420
Also had David Hague, Pango from the leisure hide in it.

565
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:40.619
It was beautifully done.

566
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:42.240
She's extraordinary.

567
00:25:42.359 --> 00:25:45.240
And she's had a lot of experience, but she's at the back, and

568
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.180
you've got someone who's done drama school and got a few little

569
00:25:48.180 --> 00:25:48.720
bits and pieces.

570
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:52.680
Janet gets a hell of a lot better, and I agree with Todd.

571
00:25:52.740 --> 00:25:54.480
It's when she discovers alcoholism.

572
00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.220
Just as it ate in terms before.

573
00:25:59.339 --> 00:26:01.619
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

574
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.099
She does get better, but gee, we've got to really sog it out

575
00:26:05.099 --> 00:26:05.940
before she gets there.

576
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.859
And Sarah's, if you're saying, this has been given very little

577
00:26:10.859 --> 00:26:13.259
given a huge amount to do in, and you're done.

578
00:26:13.380 --> 00:26:15.000
You try and do it.

579
00:26:15.059 --> 00:26:15.960
I think it was impossible.

580
00:26:16.140 --> 00:26:19.440
Yeah, it's like a whole new relaunch.

581
00:26:20.759 --> 00:26:22.019
It is, though, series, yeah.

582
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.660
So, Richard is.

583
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:26.700
Does the plot make sense?

584
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:27.960
What plot?

585
00:26:28.619 --> 00:26:30.359
What plot?

586
00:26:30.420 --> 00:26:32.039
I mean, I was a techie science nerd.

587
00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:36.240
My cousin's in Canberra, my uncle by marriage, was one of the guys

588
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:40.200
in the 50s who built the 1st computer in Australia, which was

589
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:41.700
called Univac or something.

590
00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:45.299
I think it's a Dyson now, but, you know, it was a whole room full

591
00:26:45.299 --> 00:26:48.420
of valves, you know, wheeze like Billy Hartnell used to say.

592
00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:48.960
Yeah, yeah.

593
00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:52.859
So we had all this stuff to play with right at the time.

594
00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.519
Those boys, my cousins 18 months older than me, absolutely adored

595
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:00.000
this story because of all the techie stuff and bubble memory.

596
00:27:00.059 --> 00:27:03.839
Every nerd in the room was a little gasm when you got immediate

597
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:04.920
tech mentioned.

598
00:27:04.980 --> 00:27:08.220
So Bitney did know his audience, but it wasn't the whole

599
00:27:08.220 --> 00:27:08.640
audience.

600
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:10.799
It was his middle mates.

601
00:27:10.859 --> 00:27:12.779
And it's, that's not just bid me.

602
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:14.940
That is something that is going to happen to the show.

603
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:18.000
It's going to turn into cult TV for a niche.

604
00:27:18.059 --> 00:27:21.180
Isn't that a terrible expression to cult to you?

605
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:21.900
Yeah, yeah.

606
00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:24.839
Whereas it used to be, and when Russell brings it back, it will be

607
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:29.220
again a family program that everyone sits in.

608
00:27:29.279 --> 00:27:31.500
Good, well-made television.

609
00:27:31.559 --> 00:27:35.700
See, I've always had an objection to the term cult TV.

610
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:38.039
The label of cult TV.

611
00:27:38.099 --> 00:27:42.119
It's not applied by fans of the show.

612
00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:45.960
It's applied from the outside and it's a way to say, this is a TV

613
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.059
show that people care too much about.

614
00:27:48.660 --> 00:27:52.140
It's terrible, but people like it inexplicably.

615
00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:53.279
Yeah, yeah.

616
00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:57.180
And it just reminds me of something Simon Pegg said, which he was

617
00:27:57.180 --> 00:28:00.480
talking about being a geek and being bullied for it.

618
00:28:00.539 --> 00:28:04.799
And I won't get the exact words, but the thing is, the reason that

619
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:08.579
people bully geeks and nerds is that geeks and nerds have a

620
00:28:08.579 --> 00:28:12.900
passion and a drive and a love for something, and people who bully

621
00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:15.599
them can't understand what that love is and they're jealous of

622
00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:15.779
it.

623
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:17.160
But they have sport ball.

624
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:19.680
Yeah. sports ball.

625
00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:21.240
They do.

626
00:28:21.299 --> 00:28:24.599
And they don't see that that's this is just a higher functioning

627
00:28:24.599 --> 00:28:25.559
form of the same thing.

628
00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:28.500
Or to get a bit to get a bit sweary.

629
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.339
Someone at a convention with John Barrowman got up and said, oh

630
00:28:32.339 --> 00:28:33.240
I'd like to ask a question.

631
00:28:33.299 --> 00:28:34.440
I'm sorry, it's a bit nerdy.

632
00:28:34.500 --> 00:28:36.539
And John said, before you ask you a question, I'm going to stop

633
00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:36.660
you.

634
00:28:36.720 --> 00:28:39.599
Do not apologise for being nerdy.

635
00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:43.019
People who aren't nerds don't apologise for being assholes.

636
00:28:43.500 --> 00:28:46.079
That's part that's part of the tension.

637
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:52.019
Because I'm not sure that Doctor Who gets inaccessible at this

638
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:53.880
point, but I think what happened...

639
00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:59.099
I think what happens is that In some respects, Doctor Who gets a

640
00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:02.579
bit more mature and a bit more highbrow and people who expect it

641
00:29:02.579 --> 00:29:06.480
just to be men in rubber suits and egg cartons kind of go, oh, yes

642
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.339
you just get back down in your box.

643
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:12.420
I think certainly partially the shift in the show, the

644
00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:15.900
scientification as bid meat puts it, is responsible, but I think

645
00:29:15.900 --> 00:29:19.859
it's also people thinking that it shouldn't get ideas, quote

646
00:29:19.859 --> 00:29:21.240
unquote, above its station.

647
00:29:21.299 --> 00:29:25.079
But when I say that the show turns into cult TV from this point

648
00:29:25.079 --> 00:29:30.299
what I need is, and I'm probably being too cynical, that it's just

649
00:29:30.299 --> 00:29:34.140
not very good, but the people making it think that there is a

650
00:29:34.140 --> 00:29:37.440
built-in audience who will watch it anyway, and that's the

651
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:38.940
audience that they're aiming for.

652
00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:41.819
They're not looking beyond.

653
00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:45.779
They're not looking at creating a show with broad appeal.

654
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:50.099
Um, You know, like Doctor Who is nerdy when it comes back in

655
00:29:50.099 --> 00:29:51.119
2005.

656
00:29:51.420 --> 00:29:52.920
It's terribly geeky.

657
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:57.299
It's but it's aware that it isn't entitled to a big audience.

658
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.299
People aren't going to tune into it just because it's on.

659
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:03.480
And so they go out of their way to make something that's appealing

660
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:05.099
and interesting and well made.

661
00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:07.440
But I don't see that happening in the 80s.

662
00:30:07.500 --> 00:30:11.339
And whether that's kind of cynicism or just incompetence, I'm not

663
00:30:11.339 --> 00:30:11.640
sure.

664
00:30:11.700 --> 00:30:14.519
But I think that's what I mean by cult TV.

665
00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:19.619
Yeah, these people will just watch it because it's got the diamond

666
00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:20.579
logo on it.

667
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:24.119
It doesn't have a diamond logo on it, but, you know, you're both

668
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:24.900
saying the same thing though.

669
00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.380
This is, and I think Doctor Who is always, we've talked about this

670
00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:32.279
as well, always spoken of, the wider realm of what's going on.

671
00:30:32.339 --> 00:30:35.220
At the moment, it's talking about acadine, what's going on at the

672
00:30:35.220 --> 00:30:37.019
universities with post-modern theory.

673
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:39.539
You can just sum it up as in, it looks back at itself.

674
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:41.099
It's self-referential.

675
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:44.640
And it's not reconing, it's just, although it is in this story, but

676
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:49.019
it's, it's just, it's very self-conscious, or it's begin to get

677
00:30:49.019 --> 00:30:52.259
that sense of looking back at its own beginnings and analysing

678
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.980
itself in a very academic, You know, it's as if we've all gone

679
00:30:55.980 --> 00:30:57.059
from primary school.

680
00:30:57.119 --> 00:30:59.700
We've gone through high school and now we're at 1st year

681
00:30:59.700 --> 00:31:00.480
undergrad.

682
00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:02.279
It feels like an undergrad thing.

683
00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:04.859
I think the influence of Douglas Adams is still quite strong there

684
00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:05.460
but just moved on.

685
00:31:05.519 --> 00:31:10.559
I mean, you said something, Todd, about the show, not having

686
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:14.339
anything for new kids who are coming along to watch it.

687
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:17.279
Yeah, like I've mentioned that before.

688
00:31:17.339 --> 00:31:21.000
Like, it's getting very self-referential, like even in this, like

689
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:22.440
with Romana and all that sort of stuff.

690
00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:24.000
But I know where you're going with this.

691
00:31:24.059 --> 00:31:27.359
The young audience, the 789s aren't, this is we're going to stick

692
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:27.900
with the show.

693
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.380
Like we're aiming at it, you know, the 19, 20 year olds at this

694
00:31:31.380 --> 00:31:31.680
point.

695
00:31:31.740 --> 00:31:32.759
And that's a problem.

696
00:31:32.819 --> 00:31:34.799
You know, you're not getting the next generation coming through

697
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.099
and this season has reaped the rewards of that.

698
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:38.700
Yeah.

699
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:40.680
I mean, I still think it's good in season 18.

700
00:31:41.099 --> 00:31:45.900
And I still think that Doctor Who can help itself to entropy as a

701
00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:46.319
theme.

702
00:31:46.380 --> 00:31:47.640
You know what I mean?

703
00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:51.359
It might be a new word to some people, but the idea is just well

704
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.380
explained.

705
00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:57.180
And it's well explained, actually, by having Episode one where 2

706
00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:59.460
vehicles are malfunctioning.

707
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:03.900
So you've got Tegan and Auntie Vanessa in the car, that's what

708
00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:05.759
you're going to say, Tegan and Auntie Vanessa.

709
00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:10.319
And the doctor and Adrik. and the doctor explains it beautifully

710
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:11.819
in that scene in the cloister. room.

711
00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:13.619
So that's not making it inaccessible.

712
00:32:13.680 --> 00:32:17.339
And it's, okay, it's sort of science fiction, it should sort of

713
00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:17.940
have ideas.

714
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.960
So I don't think the rot set in yet, but it is going to.

715
00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:28.319
I think, uh, did mean to exit from the show... is not a good

716
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:28.500
thing.

717
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:31.019
No, I really think that's too fast.

718
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:34.619
He needed to do another season, like to see in a new doctor. you

719
00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:36.839
know, all these characters that he's been forced to introduce to

720
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:40.319
sort of craft them and guide them and steer them and that, well

721
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:41.279
he's not there to do it.

722
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:43.680
Quite frankly, it does fall apart.

723
00:32:43.740 --> 00:32:46.440
I think it also gets less visually ambitious as well.

724
00:32:46.500 --> 00:32:48.240
Now this is the show that we're making.

725
00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:51.660
You know, they're not making a statement about how the show can

726
00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:52.380
look interesting.

727
00:32:52.440 --> 00:32:56.099
And I think here, I think there are bits of Lagopolos that look

728
00:32:56.099 --> 00:32:57.660
just terrible.

729
00:32:57.720 --> 00:33:01.500
Like really, really bad, worse than the 60s.

730
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:05.160
That planet, you know, like you can virtually see, you know, stage

731
00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:09.180
hands fingerprints all over the kind of backdrop and stuff.

732
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.799
The sky is like 2 metres away.

733
00:33:10.859 --> 00:33:12.119
You know, the web planet?

734
00:33:12.180 --> 00:33:16.200
It is actually Doctor Who's version of Barbarilla's Labyrinth.

735
00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:19.859
Even with the way that the look of, a little bit of logopolitans

736
00:33:19.859 --> 00:33:23.519
logo police, as my iPhone transcribes, the wiggles.

737
00:33:23.579 --> 00:33:26.099
The way they fade out is just the same way that the ground

738
00:33:26.099 --> 00:33:28.079
grotesques die in the labyrinth.

739
00:33:28.140 --> 00:33:29.099
They just go invisible.

740
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:30.420
And they look, it's actually the same costume.

741
00:33:30.480 --> 00:33:33.420
But there's also that wonderful shot of when the master goes

742
00:33:33.420 --> 00:33:36.359
through those doors and everything's just painted.

743
00:33:36.420 --> 00:33:38.579
I'm just thinking, are you for real?

744
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:39.660
Like how cheap is this?

745
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.900
But on the pip side is you've got all that stuff inside the tarnis

746
00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:45.059
when they go inside each of the tarnis with the light.

747
00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:46.440
It feels really dark.

748
00:33:46.500 --> 00:33:47.700
And I really love that.

749
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:52.140
I love that inside the last TARDIS is the outside world.

750
00:33:52.200 --> 00:33:55.380
Like Tom goes into the TARDIS and he's outside.

751
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.680
So the whole world is in the in the in the middle one.

752
00:33:58.740 --> 00:34:00.180
It was terrifically good.

753
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:01.740
I will make it like that.

754
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:05.759
I mean, what I find amazing about the story is it's full of

755
00:34:05.759 --> 00:34:13.019
sequences of events that deconstruct the Tom Baker era.

756
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:19.199
So, for instance, in the doctor's whole thing here is, you know, he

757
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:21.360
suspects the master's atlas again.

758
00:34:21.420 --> 00:34:23.820
So he wants to get the TARDIS fixed.

759
00:34:23.880 --> 00:34:26.400
So we're gonna be getting rid of the police box, which would

760
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.219
become a common JNT thing when he wanted a bit of publicity.

761
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:31.559
You know, he'd say we're going to change the police box.

762
00:34:31.619 --> 00:34:35.519
So 1st of all, there's that threat, which actually arose because

763
00:34:35.519 --> 00:34:40.559
there was still a police box standing on this area of highway.

764
00:34:40.619 --> 00:34:43.440
But by the time they got there to film, it had fallen into

765
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:44.639
disrepair and been removed.

766
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:49.980
So they had to use the season 17 police box sitting by the side of

767
00:34:49.980 --> 00:34:53.880
the road instead that doesn't explain, however, why there's a sign

768
00:34:53.880 --> 00:34:56.460
saying, please take your litter with you with a bin sitting under

769
00:34:56.460 --> 00:34:56.820
it.

770
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.400
Anyway, what's with that?

771
00:34:59.699 --> 00:35:04.559
A man is the sum of his memories. also, and I think with this

772
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:08.099
story, like the whole thing as a whole, well, doesn't make a lot

773
00:35:08.099 --> 00:35:10.739
of sense, but there's some really nice little set pieces, but even

774
00:35:10.739 --> 00:35:12.599
some of them are really quite ridiculous.

775
00:35:12.659 --> 00:35:17.219
Let's flush the master out of the TARDIS by dropping out of the

776
00:35:17.219 --> 00:35:20.579
sky into a river and just then having the whole TARDIS fill with

777
00:35:20.579 --> 00:35:23.099
water so that he can just be trapped in his TARDIS.

778
00:35:23.159 --> 00:35:23.639
I don't know.

779
00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:25.980
Like at the time I thought, this is wonderful.

780
00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:29.519
Yeah, it was a startling thing, but I also thought that the

781
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:30.539
doctor's gone mad.

782
00:35:31.199 --> 00:35:36.599
And when he says it's, we share the same mind in many ways.

783
00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:37.619
It's the same mind.

784
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:40.139
Ah, yeah, be careful who your friends are.

785
00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.179
Yes, it's...

786
00:35:42.179 --> 00:35:44.639
That whole time monster thing was lovely too.

787
00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:45.480
Is that, is it?

788
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:46.559
No, no, no, no.

789
00:35:46.559 --> 00:35:49.440
It's the way the tartars are inside tartars, which is the most

790
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:50.039
exciting thing.

791
00:35:50.099 --> 00:35:51.179
I'd forgotten at the time.

792
00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:52.619
Yeah, we've had this in the time monster.

793
00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:56.699
I mean, then again, we've got Kronos the Kronavore playing Janet

794
00:35:56.699 --> 00:35:58.500
Fielding. really exciting.

795
00:35:58.739 --> 00:36:04.019
Friend of the podcast, Blaine William Traynor, who's a friend of

796
00:36:04.019 --> 00:36:09.119
ours in Edinburgh Sculpts, one, Scotland, Scotland, yes.

797
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.460
He's a graphic designer.

798
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:16.320
And once on Twitter, he took some screen grabs of Christopher H

799
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:21.659
bid me, being interviewed on documentaries and gave them captions

800
00:36:21.659 --> 00:36:24.000
like, science, yes, we're sciencing up the show.

801
00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:27.360
Lots of science-y stuff, like materialising guitars and opening it

802
00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:27.840
underwater.

803
00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:29.159
My middle name is Hamilton.

804
00:36:29.219 --> 00:36:30.659
Make sure that gets on the title card.

805
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.820
And put it out on Twitter.

806
00:36:32.880 --> 00:36:35.579
Christopher Hamilton did me responded.

807
00:36:36.000 --> 00:36:39.300
Oh, with pictures.

808
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:40.500
Pick pictures.

809
00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:44.519
And the thing is, though, Christopher's response. to that

810
00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.980
criticism about materialising times underwater.

811
00:36:47.039 --> 00:36:48.360
He didn't attempt to justify it.

812
00:36:48.420 --> 00:36:52.139
What he said was, and again, accompanied as captions with

813
00:36:52.139 --> 00:36:52.380
pictures.

814
00:36:52.739 --> 00:36:57.239
The thing about people criticising Legopolis is that people are

815
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:01.559
assuming they're much smarter than the doctor, which is not a very

816
00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:02.579
smart thing indeed.

817
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:07.380
I kind of looked at that and thought, okay, Chris, you're picking

818
00:37:07.380 --> 00:37:09.300
yourself up there a bit, but at the same time, it's hard to

819
00:37:09.300 --> 00:37:09.780
argue.

820
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:12.900
Well, but what he really means is people are assuming they're

821
00:37:12.900 --> 00:37:14.940
smarter than me.

822
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.920
Yes, he's doing that.

823
00:37:16.980 --> 00:37:17.400
Yes.

824
00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:20.820
That's the thing, like, Blade put that out on Twitter and I

825
00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:24.179
retweeted it, and about 2 hours later, he sort of sent me a direct

826
00:37:24.179 --> 00:37:26.639
message saying, oh, expleted.

827
00:37:26.699 --> 00:37:29.099
Check out Bit means Twitter.

828
00:37:29.340 --> 00:37:34.139
And you should follow Chris forbid me on Twitter at CHB.

829
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.119
Sorry, at CHB, I should say.

830
00:37:36.360 --> 00:37:39.360
Going back to what I was saying and that's because there's all

831
00:37:39.360 --> 00:37:40.199
these little set pieces.

832
00:37:40.260 --> 00:37:43.199
Like, but you have things like, for example, Nisa, the doctor

833
00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:44.940
receives a message from Tron.

834
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.119
Like he's never been beamed a messaged by other people before.

835
00:37:48.179 --> 00:37:50.820
Like it just suddenly, in this story, it happens.

836
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.619
I'm getting much better at these short stops.

837
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:55.079
Well, that's another convenient little thing that's happening.

838
00:37:55.139 --> 00:37:58.380
Then he has to obviously talk to the watcher and the watcher has

839
00:37:58.380 --> 00:38:01.559
to mysteriously never explain how he gets to track and does he

840
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:02.400
have his own TARDIS?

841
00:38:02.460 --> 00:38:07.199
Why does this foreshadowing creature have his own space time

842
00:38:07.199 --> 00:38:10.079
transport and then, you know, and then so Nissa just turns up and

843
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:13.199
says with a line explanation that she came with him.

844
00:38:13.260 --> 00:38:16.440
But, you know, it felt pretty flat at the time.

845
00:38:16.500 --> 00:38:17.699
Do you know, I love that.

846
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:19.440
I absolutely adore that.

847
00:38:19.500 --> 00:38:21.059
I don't want an explanation.

848
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:21.780
It's magic.

849
00:38:21.840 --> 00:38:27.900
Yeah, because this is so important to the story, weird narrative

850
00:38:27.900 --> 00:38:28.980
things are happening around it.

851
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.260
You don't want Bid Beans explanation?

852
00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:32.579
No, really?

853
00:38:32.639 --> 00:38:34.860
I want to see, see it.

854
00:38:34.920 --> 00:38:37.380
But the fact that bit means always going about like, you know

855
00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:39.539
getting rid of the magic, but that is magic.

856
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:41.280
Well, but he doesn't get rid of the magic.

857
00:38:41.340 --> 00:38:43.920
I said to you before that I think of Bidmead is a terrible

858
00:38:43.920 --> 00:38:44.340
critic.

859
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:49.079
In fact, the way that Legopolis works is magic, like saying words

860
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.980
and intoning things and having physical objects created as a

861
00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:54.780
result, that's magic.

862
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:59.159
And Legopolis works because it's a symbolic analogue of a

863
00:38:59.159 --> 00:38:59.639
computer.

864
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:03.780
You know, it has registers, it has a monitor, it has memory

865
00:39:03.780 --> 00:39:04.380
blocks.

866
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:07.619
I think it's an 8 bit computer, so it's not very advanced.

867
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:09.719
It plays chip tunes.

868
00:39:10.019 --> 00:39:12.239
But it's literally a computer.

869
00:39:12.300 --> 00:39:15.840
It's an analogue of a computer and magic is symbols of things

870
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:20.820
having effects on the things themselves, you know, and all

871
00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:21.900
throughout the season.

872
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:23.820
Warriors gay, it works this way.

873
00:39:23.880 --> 00:39:26.159
Time we've been Meglos works this way.

874
00:39:26.219 --> 00:39:30.900
Season 18 is absolutely full of magic, fuller than it's ever

875
00:39:30.900 --> 00:39:31.139
been.

876
00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:35.760
And because it's scientific things that are being symbolised or

877
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:39.360
modelled, you know, Bidmead makes the mistake of thinking that

878
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:43.199
he's bringing science into the program, but he's just bringing a

879
00:39:43.199 --> 00:39:45.059
sort of science flavoured magic into it.

880
00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:47.219
And I have absolutely no objection to that.

881
00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:48.179
I think it's wonderful.

882
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:51.840
I'd like to share my favourite bit of techno babble from this

883
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:52.380
story.

884
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:53.519
I mean, there's a lot to choose from.

885
00:39:53.579 --> 00:39:57.360
There's sonic projectors which create a temporary zone of stasis.

886
00:39:57.420 --> 00:40:01.380
The doctor asks Adrik to fold back the Omiger configurations.

887
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:04.800
But my favourite piece, and because it comes from Anthony Ainley

888
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:07.440
and because the way he reads it, it's very clear he has no idea

889
00:40:07.440 --> 00:40:09.960
what he's saying, but he's going to make it sound as important as

890
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:10.320
possible.

891
00:40:11.940 --> 00:40:16.739
We should reconfigure our 2 TARTuses into time cone inverters.

892
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.639
That way we can create a stable, safe zone by applying temporal

893
00:40:20.639 --> 00:40:24.599
inversion isometry to have much of space time as we can isolate.

894
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:30.960
Because the time monster was just so good.

895
00:40:31.019 --> 00:40:34.739
But the thing is, he's kind of got the whole barrel read thing

896
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:37.199
that we'll see next year in Earth Shock. in the, yeah, it's clear

897
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:40.980
he doesn't have a clue what he's saying, but he understands the

898
00:40:40.980 --> 00:40:42.599
energy of the scene.

899
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:47.280
And, you know, I think something we said last week is that Anthony

900
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:50.639
only starts very strong and most of his performances just go

901
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:52.320
downhill after keeper of Trunk.

902
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:54.300
And he's, I think he's still quite strong here.

903
00:40:54.360 --> 00:40:55.139
What do you chaps think?

904
00:40:55.199 --> 00:40:56.340
I'm with Todd on this.

905
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:57.960
Go on.

906
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:02.699
Well, I mean, this is what you've been saying this season.

907
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:03.000
Go on.

908
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:06.780
My feeling is that it's still a good performance.

909
00:41:06.840 --> 00:41:09.719
I think I just hate the costume, because she just really gets to

910
00:41:09.719 --> 00:41:09.900
me.

911
00:41:09.960 --> 00:41:10.800
I'm with you on that.

912
00:41:10.800 --> 00:41:13.800
And it's one of these things that the more you see of him. da, da

913
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:16.079
da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

914
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:21.840
Yes, the more you see it, yes.

915
00:41:21.840 --> 00:41:25.019
Like as he goes along, then you look back at those 1st

916
00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:28.380
performances and you see the more dodgier bits, all the more

917
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:29.099
hemier bits.

918
00:41:29.519 --> 00:41:32.400
And that affects my judgement of it.

919
00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:34.800
I still actually think he's, I don't have a problem with his

920
00:41:34.800 --> 00:41:35.280
brother.

921
00:41:35.340 --> 00:41:37.320
As Trimus, he's superb.

922
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.300
And yeah, no, he is.

923
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:42.300
And as the early master seems, he's terrific.

924
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:44.579
I think maybe it's just a case of too much fraud.

925
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:45.659
I'm not saying he's great.

926
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:48.900
I think the whole character is misconceived.

927
00:41:48.960 --> 00:41:51.900
And it's wrong and Russell gets it wrong.

928
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:53.699
Maybe that's why Ching Mess is good in the Masters.

929
00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:59.340
So the master is a guy in a black suit with a goatee as far as JNT

930
00:41:59.340 --> 00:41:59.820
is concerned.

931
00:41:59.880 --> 00:42:02.340
That's the character concept and his evil.

932
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:03.239
Agreed.

933
00:42:03.300 --> 00:42:04.679
I wish it had been Beryl Reed.

934
00:42:04.860 --> 00:42:06.780
That would have been great.

935
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.480
The mask tends to be the doctor's opposite, you know, and that's

936
00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:10.260
how he was conceived.

937
00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:13.920
And so he's brought in with Pertwee and Delgado is designed to

938
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:15.179
complement Pertwee.

939
00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:16.139
He's a patrician.

940
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:17.519
He's very clever.

941
00:42:17.579 --> 00:42:19.380
He's arrogant.

942
00:42:19.500 --> 00:42:21.059
He's pertly only foreign.

943
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:22.199
I said this before.

944
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.380
So, when the Masters brought back by Russell, the threat that he

945
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:27.780
poses is that he will take over as star of the show.

946
00:42:27.840 --> 00:42:30.659
And he does. exactly right.

947
00:42:30.719 --> 00:42:33.420
He's much more, it's more interesting to look at.

948
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:36.659
And like what Delgado almost became like the star of the show.

949
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:39.960
Whereas at no point do you actually feel like Anthony Anthony...

950
00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:41.280
No, it's never going to be started.

951
00:42:41.340 --> 00:42:43.019
I don't think he's a threat.

952
00:42:43.079 --> 00:42:45.300
I mean, everyone feels comfortable in this position, and I think

953
00:42:45.300 --> 00:42:46.500
that's not the actor's fault.

954
00:42:46.559 --> 00:42:50.639
No, you have to know who the doctor is and cast the master to play

955
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:51.659
opposite the doctor.

956
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:52.679
You know.

957
00:42:52.860 --> 00:42:55.320
And I think that is eventually, and getting way ahead of

958
00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:55.619
ourselves.

959
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.659
He works best with Sylvester because Sylvester is this kind of

960
00:43:00.659 --> 00:43:03.599
small, quiet figure.

961
00:43:03.599 --> 00:43:08.940
Anthony Ainley is at his best when he's very quiet. menacing.

962
00:43:09.059 --> 00:43:12.599
Like when he's with Nissa in the scene, saying, look, Apolis is a

963
00:43:12.599 --> 00:43:14.519
cold, high place overlooking the universe.

964
00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:17.460
He and Tom work okay together.

965
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.519
He and Peter, there's no, there's no frisal between them.

966
00:43:20.579 --> 00:43:24.360
It doesn't help the fact that in this episode every time it cuts

967
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:27.960
to a police box or a pillar of whatever it is, you just get that

968
00:43:27.960 --> 00:43:28.380
laugh.

969
00:43:29.099 --> 00:43:32.099
Is that all I can do for 3 episodes?

970
00:43:32.159 --> 00:43:33.900
I actually quite like that.

971
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:37.199
Because Brendan was talking about deconstructing the series and

972
00:43:37.199 --> 00:43:41.159
this turns the TARDIS into a terrifying place and, you know, where

973
00:43:41.159 --> 00:43:44.400
people get killed. and both the outside and the inside.

974
00:43:44.460 --> 00:43:48.480
Like having the TARDIS exterior inside the interior really

975
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:50.760
deconstructs the idea of the TARDIS as well.

976
00:43:50.820 --> 00:43:53.699
Yeah, it's a bit like the new adventures we'll do later when

977
00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:56.039
they're constantly tearing the TARTAS apart and things.

978
00:43:56.099 --> 00:43:58.139
He was asleep by then.

979
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:04.619
In terms of Anthony, I'd like to turn now to Jan, Vincent, Runsky

980
00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:07.320
where has the magic of Doctor Who gone?

981
00:44:07.380 --> 00:44:13.500
Um, who puzzled over the fact that, and this is back in 1981.

982
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.260
Anthony Anley seems a good choice for the master in a Delgado

983
00:44:16.260 --> 00:44:18.659
mould, but I think it would have been better to give him a more

984
00:44:18.659 --> 00:44:21.900
definitive variation of the master's character like the doctor

985
00:44:21.900 --> 00:44:23.039
does when he regenerates.

986
00:44:23.099 --> 00:44:27.480
Likewise, if this was the Delgado version reborn, then why did he

987
00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.880
wear that silly suit that makes him look like a penguin?

988
00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:32.519
Hey, you said it, you know?

989
00:44:32.579 --> 00:44:34.260
I think you're right, Nathan.

990
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:37.079
It should not have been, we're going to just do a carbon copy of

991
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.139
Delgado and he's got the beard and he's got this costume from back

992
00:44:40.139 --> 00:44:42.059
then and a really bad wig.

993
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:43.199
That's right.

994
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:44.460
He needed to be his own man.

995
00:44:44.519 --> 00:44:46.380
And that doesn't thank you.

996
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:46.860
Yes, yes.

997
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:50.099
And it's the same thing that will be said, a future doctor. too

998
00:44:50.099 --> 00:44:53.039
distantly. that's getting ahead of ourselves. again.

999
00:44:53.099 --> 00:44:55.739
I mean, the 2 masters that we've had in the new series.

1000
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.760
And you know, they've been great. you know because they do that.

1001
00:44:59.820 --> 00:45:02.159
Yeah, I have to say even Eric Roberts.

1002
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:06.000
Because the 8th doctor, when we get to him, is painted as, you

1003
00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:07.619
know, the bastion of Britishness.

1004
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:12.840
So Eric Roberts plays it as a Dolph Lungren style American

1005
00:45:12.840 --> 00:45:13.440
villain.

1006
00:45:13.860 --> 00:45:15.900
And it's like, you know what?

1007
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:18.599
If you watch it as an adult, that scene where he's coming down the

1008
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:20.460
stairs, I always dress.

1009
00:45:20.519 --> 00:45:21.539
He's magnificent.

1010
00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:24.420
He is pretty good. everyone I ever know.

1011
00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:26.820
I'm wearing it now.

1012
00:45:26.880 --> 00:45:27.659
I'm doing the accent.

1013
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:32.699
He actually does Carol Burnett in her sketch of gone with the wind

1014
00:45:32.699 --> 00:45:36.900
when she walks down the stairs in a huge draped in velvet with a

1015
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:39.659
curtain rail across her back and she says, I saw it in the window

1016
00:45:39.659 --> 00:45:40.980
and I just had to have it.

1017
00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:45.179
I do have to say, I've seen Anthony only in other things, and he's

1018
00:45:45.179 --> 00:45:45.480
very good.

1019
00:45:45.539 --> 00:45:47.400
Yeah, he's excellent in a...

1020
00:45:47.460 --> 00:45:48.960
Is he the palaces or Forsyth?

1021
00:45:49.019 --> 00:45:49.800
He was in one of those things.

1022
00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:51.059
I think it was the palaces.

1023
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:52.440
Take him way back.

1024
00:45:52.500 --> 00:45:56.639
But also for fans of the podcast who know we enjoy the Avengers.

1025
00:45:56.699 --> 00:45:57.659
Gasp.

1026
00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:01.679
He is in a latter-day Avengers episode called Noon Doomsday, which

1027
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:02.519
is a Western.

1028
00:46:02.579 --> 00:46:06.420
And pretty much long story short, Steed has a broken leg, so he's

1029
00:46:06.420 --> 00:46:09.300
convalescing in this home for injured agents. and there's someone

1030
00:46:09.300 --> 00:46:10.199
coming to kill him.

1031
00:46:10.260 --> 00:46:15.239
So Tara King tries to rally the other spies who are there to aid

1032
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:17.400
Steed and all of them are like, no, I don't want to do anything

1033
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:21.300
except for Anthony Ainley, who is bedridden and can't speak beyond

1034
00:46:21.300 --> 00:46:21.840
a whisper.

1035
00:46:21.900 --> 00:46:25.559
So his whole job is just to be a lookout, but he's just this

1036
00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:28.739
incredibly brave, incredibly dignified performance.

1037
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.780
He's really good in that.

1038
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:35.099
So noon doomsday in season 6 of the Avengers. our gunfighters.

1039
00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:37.440
You know what?

1040
00:46:37.500 --> 00:46:40.559
I think his best scene is besides his stuff with Miss, which I

1041
00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:41.340
think is actually really good.

1042
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:45.840
It is, yeah. is that moment when he's peering out of the Barris

1043
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:52.019
Project Tower as Tom is swinging, we're about to just a

1044
00:46:52.019 --> 00:46:52.500
photograph.

1045
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:55.380
Correct. a cardboard card.

1046
00:46:55.440 --> 00:46:56.880
I never saw that as a kid.

1047
00:46:56.940 --> 00:47:00.300
No, but then the 2nd time I watched it, I went, that's not.

1048
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:01.679
Yes.

1049
00:47:01.739 --> 00:47:04.679
Yeah, because, you know, you're looking you're looking at Tom.

1050
00:47:04.739 --> 00:47:05.699
That's what that scene.

1051
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:09.119
That scene caused a fair...

1052
00:47:10.019 --> 00:47:11.880
Hell, you know.

1053
00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:15.840
Oh, another thing that deconstructs what's going before is I'm

1054
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:17.159
jetticing Romana's room.

1055
00:47:17.219 --> 00:47:17.880
Yeah, yeah.

1056
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:18.900
And that's actually it.

1057
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.019
In my opinion, that's a brilliant scene between Tom and Adrick

1058
00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:23.400
like the way Tom snaps.

1059
00:47:23.460 --> 00:47:27.539
And the way that Matthew actually snaps back, I'm sorry.

1060
00:47:27.599 --> 00:47:30.780
Because I thought I was the Romana now.

1061
00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:34.380
You made me wear...

1062
00:47:34.739 --> 00:47:40.920
But yeah, some consternation that was caused during that drop from

1063
00:47:40.920 --> 00:47:41.820
the Pharaohs Tower.

1064
00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:43.860
Okay, chaps, I think we're all going to come up with the same

1065
00:47:43.860 --> 00:47:44.219
answer.

1066
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:48.539
When the doctor drops off the Pharaoh's Tower, what is the shot

1067
00:47:48.539 --> 00:47:49.739
that's burned into your memory?

1068
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:50.460
The single shot?

1069
00:47:50.519 --> 00:47:56.699
Tegan sees him dropping faster than everyone else. reaction where

1070
00:47:56.699 --> 00:47:58.260
they're all watching him fall.

1071
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:02.280
But Tegan, he, as far as Tegan's concerned, he's already hit the

1072
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:04.380
ground while he's still in the air for the other two.

1073
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:05.460
Oh, okay.

1074
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:08.579
For me, it's like, isn't there a little dolly swimming?

1075
00:48:08.699 --> 00:48:09.659
Ah, yes, yes.

1076
00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:13.440
But also too, the other thing that I'll criticise is the fact that

1077
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:17.159
you know, he's hanging on to that girder or whatever, right?

1078
00:48:17.219 --> 00:48:19.320
And, like, he's actually hanging on to it.

1079
00:48:19.380 --> 00:48:20.400
Like that could be fine.

1080
00:48:20.460 --> 00:48:22.619
And then he does this thing with his hands that it's sort of like

1081
00:48:22.619 --> 00:48:23.760
well, I really have just given up.

1082
00:48:23.820 --> 00:48:24.780
I don't give a shame.

1083
00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:26.039
I'm just trying to kill myself.

1084
00:48:26.099 --> 00:48:30.000
Like, even as a kid, I remember thinking for a moment, oh, that's

1085
00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:31.739
a bit, like, clearly hang on.

1086
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:34.079
It is a great shot though, isn't it?

1087
00:48:34.139 --> 00:48:35.280
Where his hand just lets go.

1088
00:48:35.579 --> 00:48:40.800
That is the bit that caused a stand-up row between him and Peter

1089
00:48:40.800 --> 00:48:43.500
Grimwade and John Nathan Turner because they wanted him to

1090
00:48:43.500 --> 00:48:43.860
scream.

1091
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.380
That would have been ridiculous.

1092
00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:50.280
And Tom's version of what the scene is.

1093
00:48:50.340 --> 00:48:51.900
He's like, no, all through the story.

1094
00:48:51.960 --> 00:48:54.119
I've been seeing this figure who is my death.

1095
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.659
And I've just saved the universe.

1096
00:48:57.719 --> 00:48:58.619
I'm being heroic.

1097
00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:02.639
And I think he said, I don't know what I was thinking at the time

1098
00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:04.980
but what I think looking at that now when the hand goes, that's

1099
00:49:04.980 --> 00:49:08.639
the doctor going, it's okay, I can let go. you know, and he's like

1100
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:09.900
that's my heroic act.

1101
00:49:09.960 --> 00:49:11.280
I've saved the universe.

1102
00:49:11.340 --> 00:49:13.440
I don't have to save myself and I'm not screaming on the way

1103
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:13.739
down.

1104
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:14.460
And he got his way.

1105
00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:17.340
And I think it's all the more effective, but you just have that

1106
00:49:17.340 --> 00:49:20.820
musical beat from Patty Kingsland as the hang goes down.

1107
00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:23.099
And yet, unfortunately, you have Janet beginning how gravity

1108
00:49:23.099 --> 00:49:23.400
works.

1109
00:49:23.699 --> 00:49:25.980
It's different in Brisbane.

1110
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:29.519
It's the outback.

1111
00:49:29.579 --> 00:49:33.119
Interesting, like, we're talking about death and entropy and all

1112
00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:33.659
that sort of thing.

1113
00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:35.880
And like, so Andrew's brother was killed.

1114
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:36.420
Yep.

1115
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:41.400
Mrs. father was killed, and now Tegan's aunts killed, all of them

1116
00:49:41.400 --> 00:49:45.719
have got one dead relative because of this, you know?

1117
00:49:46.199 --> 00:49:47.880
because of the master.

1118
00:49:47.940 --> 00:49:49.980
Well, is it because of the master?

1119
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:53.280
Is this moment to jump in that none of this would have happened?

1120
00:49:53.340 --> 00:49:56.519
The doctor knowingly knew that knowingly knew?

1121
00:49:56.579 --> 00:49:57.300
Can I say that?

1122
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:01.260
knew that the master was in the TARDIS and he still went to Frick

1123
00:50:01.260 --> 00:50:03.059
and Legopolis and took him there?

1124
00:50:03.119 --> 00:50:07.440
I think that thing letting go is actually Mia Culpa. when he falls

1125
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.260
off the light, the light says, all impacting with me all the

1126
00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:10.679
time.

1127
00:50:10.739 --> 00:50:13.380
I should probably go before anyone notices.

1128
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:17.519
You know, in some alternative universe, Tegan will wander into the

1129
00:50:17.519 --> 00:50:20.340
master's tart as an auntie, but yes, we will wander into the

1130
00:50:20.340 --> 00:50:21.179
doctor's.

1131
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:23.340
I would watch that.

1132
00:50:23.460 --> 00:50:25.559
That would be really interesting.

1133
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:27.780
I think Vanessa is wonderful, isn't she?

1134
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:28.619
she not wonderful?

1135
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:32.099
This spaceship is hardly the starship enterprise, my dear.

1136
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:35.340
God, she would have been great.

1137
00:50:35.400 --> 00:50:36.300
She wrote her.

1138
00:50:36.300 --> 00:50:39.420
I just realised that Tagan, and all the original series companion

1139
00:50:39.420 --> 00:50:42.360
she's got her aunt, her cousin, and her grandfather.

1140
00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:46.320
That's the most relatives of any other companions seen in the

1141
00:50:46.320 --> 00:50:47.639
history of the original series.

1142
00:50:47.699 --> 00:50:48.179
Absolutely.

1143
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:51.780
What I find astonishing about the 80s, and it starts with Adric

1144
00:50:51.780 --> 00:50:56.099
pretty much with the exception of Mel.

1145
00:50:56.099 --> 00:50:57.000
Yeah.

1146
00:50:57.059 --> 00:51:03.000
All the companions from the 80s are treated as orphans.

1147
00:51:03.059 --> 00:51:06.119
You know, Perry's mother is still alive, but we never see her.

1148
00:51:06.179 --> 00:51:07.619
We see her stepfather, you know?

1149
00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:09.900
Ace has disowned her parents.

1150
00:51:10.019 --> 00:51:15.000
Turlo, we find out his dad's dead, you know, and presumably his

1151
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.320
mother, we never hear of his mother.

1152
00:51:16.380 --> 00:51:18.719
And I kind of thought to myself, oh, that's a bit of a throwback

1153
00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.599
to the 60s, but in the 60s, really, that was just Vicky and

1154
00:51:21.599 --> 00:51:22.019
Victoria.

1155
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:23.880
Isn't Dodo an orphan?

1156
00:51:23.940 --> 00:51:25.320
Oh, well, yeah.

1157
00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:26.880
Yeah, Dodo lives with her aunt.

1158
00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:30.719
So, oh, yeah, and her, um, she says in Celestial Toymaker, it's

1159
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:31.380
the day my mother died.

1160
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:32.099
Oh, okay.

1161
00:51:32.099 --> 00:51:32.519
You know?

1162
00:51:32.579 --> 00:51:32.940
Really?

1163
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:33.599
Did she say that?

1164
00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:35.340
Yeah, she's been hanging about.

1165
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.519
No, she's leaping about in a frock and grinning when she says it.

1166
00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.039
Ah, so completely.

1167
00:51:41.099 --> 00:51:42.539
Day my mother died.

1168
00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:44.400
It took 3 spoons of arsenic.

1169
00:51:45.780 --> 00:51:49.079
Sorry. 3 spins of arsenic.

1170
00:51:49.139 --> 00:51:52.739
No, she was doing BBC. by that point.

1171
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:54.900
Why do we think that is?

1172
00:51:54.960 --> 00:51:57.360
Why is the 80s full of orphans?

1173
00:51:57.420 --> 00:52:00.599
Do we have, you can't go off on the adventure with a doctor unless

1174
00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:02.699
you have a tragic backstory and nothing to go back to?

1175
00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:06.000
You don't have those ties that the new series has to family and

1176
00:52:06.000 --> 00:52:06.599
all that sort of thing.

1177
00:52:06.659 --> 00:52:10.199
It stops it from being real, I guess.

1178
00:52:10.260 --> 00:52:12.119
Sarah is an orphan as well.

1179
00:52:12.179 --> 00:52:14.579
I don't think it's specifically mentioned, but she only even

1180
00:52:14.579 --> 00:52:15.300
mentions her aunt.

1181
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:17.219
Yeah, actually, especially on the way back.

1182
00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:19.440
They only establish her as an orphan in the new series.

1183
00:52:19.500 --> 00:52:22.619
Or possibly that's in the books and they've brought that in with

1184
00:52:22.619 --> 00:52:24.420
the temptation of Sarah Jane Smith.

1185
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:26.460
And we hear about Joe's uncle as well.

1186
00:52:26.820 --> 00:52:28.559
It's a bit past, isn't it?

1187
00:52:28.679 --> 00:52:32.880
There's that mediaeval story if you have to go through a great

1188
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:37.920
loss to achieve whatever plane of higher transcendence this is.

1189
00:52:38.039 --> 00:52:39.239
Hello Spider-Man.

1190
00:52:39.300 --> 00:52:41.880
You know, they had to go there, didn't you?

1191
00:52:41.940 --> 00:52:45.300
Are they subconsciously thinking that all the people now watching

1192
00:52:45.300 --> 00:52:48.539
the show are all these loners and losers that have no friends and

1193
00:52:48.539 --> 00:52:52.500
are just like individuals that are isolated from socially?

1194
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:55.440
Everyone has experienced that at some level, even us just sitting

1195
00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:57.960
there and hating your whole family for whatever period of a Sunday

1196
00:52:57.960 --> 00:53:00.420
it is, that you, you know, everyone goes through that.

1197
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:02.099
So everyone's spelled isolated.

1198
00:53:02.159 --> 00:53:04.199
Maybe that's what Doctor Who has always been.

1199
00:53:04.260 --> 00:53:08.460
I think it's because they're not interested in doing what Russell

1200
00:53:08.460 --> 00:53:13.139
will do when he comes back and...

1201
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:17.519
Yeah, so the characters aren't worrying about anyone missing them

1202
00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:19.260
while they're on board the TARDAS.

1203
00:53:19.320 --> 00:53:22.739
And so I think I think that that's either they've got no ties.

1204
00:53:22.800 --> 00:53:25.980
You know, no one has a partner at home, no one's worried about

1205
00:53:25.980 --> 00:53:26.519
their dog.

1206
00:53:26.579 --> 00:53:29.519
Yeah, I mean, I suppose sort of in the 60s.

1207
00:53:29.579 --> 00:53:31.619
They did sometimes talk about going home and of course they

1208
00:53:31.619 --> 00:53:35.699
couldn't because it was random and erratic in the pertly era.

1209
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.579
You know, they were earth-based as much as they were travelling in

1210
00:53:38.579 --> 00:53:39.539
space, if not more so.

1211
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:45.360
And then, you know, with Leila and Romana, Leila has no interest

1212
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:46.739
in going back to her tribe.

1213
00:53:46.800 --> 00:53:49.619
And Romana, we find out, has no interest in going back.

1214
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.559
So yeah, maybe that's the only way to kind of do it with human

1215
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:53.519
characters.

1216
00:53:53.579 --> 00:53:56.400
But at the same time, you know, this story kind of establishes

1217
00:53:56.400 --> 00:54:00.000
that, well, we know Adrik can't get back to where he comes from

1218
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:02.639
and...

1219
00:54:02.699 --> 00:54:03.300
No, no.

1220
00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:07.019
And Tegan's desperate to get back, but she gets back a year later

1221
00:54:07.019 --> 00:54:09.659
and surely the police would come knocking because you've been

1222
00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:12.900
missing for a year and your aunt is reduced to yay high, and you

1223
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:14.699
were last seen with her in the bloody car.

1224
00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.699
Why does the copper take those corpses so serious?

1225
00:54:18.539 --> 00:54:20.639
Is he from units?

1226
00:54:20.699 --> 00:54:21.239
don't know.

1227
00:54:21.659 --> 00:54:25.739
But yeah, I mean, it's a great cliffhanger where the doctor looks

1228
00:54:25.739 --> 00:54:28.260
into the car and so we do skip from the truck.

1229
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.739
Then there's the whole thing of I'm going to arrest you because of

1230
00:54:31.739 --> 00:54:34.019
these dolls in an illegally parked car.

1231
00:54:34.079 --> 00:54:37.199
They should have done it the way that they did it in Terror of the

1232
00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:42.119
Autons where it's a CSO shot. because that's good in the lunchbox

1233
00:54:42.119 --> 00:54:43.440
is so terrific.

1234
00:54:43.500 --> 00:54:46.079
Yeah, it's just aren't Vanessa played by an action man.

1235
00:54:46.139 --> 00:54:46.739
Yeah.

1236
00:54:46.739 --> 00:54:51.179
Did anybody have the Doctor Who patent book, which came out a few

1237
00:54:51.179 --> 00:54:51.659
years after this?

1238
00:54:51.719 --> 00:54:55.860
It was a book full of sewing patterns, and you could knit Doctor

1239
00:54:55.860 --> 00:54:58.320
Who cosplayer for your action man figures.

1240
00:54:58.380 --> 00:54:59.880
And which one did you name, Brendan?

1241
00:54:59.940 --> 00:55:01.199
I can't I can't knit.

1242
00:55:01.260 --> 00:55:04.920
I tried knitting once, and someone gave me like a few rows of 10

1243
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:08.159
stitches, and within half an hour I had a few rows of 21 stitches

1244
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:09.780
and that's not how it's meant to work, apparently.

1245
00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.019
Could you, did it have the pattern of Auntie Vanessa's outfit?

1246
00:55:13.079 --> 00:55:14.699
Because I would make that in a heartbeat.

1247
00:55:14.820 --> 00:55:18.360
No, but you could sew together Tegan's boob tube.

1248
00:55:18.420 --> 00:55:19.739
Oh, you could too.

1249
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:21.960
And it was actually called the boob tube.

1250
00:55:22.019 --> 00:55:25.260
And they had these they had these great teenagers modelling the

1251
00:55:25.260 --> 00:55:28.079
outfits against a gray wall with paper plates stuck to it.

1252
00:55:28.139 --> 00:55:29.159
That's right.

1253
00:55:29.219 --> 00:55:30.539
The white paper plates.

1254
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:33.599
Of course, now with modern technology with all these things swap

1255
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:34.079
apps.

1256
00:55:34.139 --> 00:55:37.559
Okay, okay, boob swap, and you can actually stop right next to

1257
00:55:37.559 --> 00:55:41.760
Janet, and transformed yourself into it. as we will be doing on

1258
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:42.719
let's post those.

1259
00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:44.940
Sharing those in a moment.

1260
00:55:45.000 --> 00:55:47.400
Sounds like it would turn you into a right tit, quite frankly.

1261
00:55:47.460 --> 00:55:49.079
Aren't you glad you're listening?

1262
00:55:49.139 --> 00:55:49.679
Go on then.

1263
00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:54.900
Good old Christopher does have a bit of a sense of humour.

1264
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:58.559
Like, this is, you know how he ripped out of the humour from a

1265
00:55:58.559 --> 00:55:59.340
leisure high.

1266
00:55:59.400 --> 00:56:01.320
But here it's in evidence.

1267
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:03.539
You know, you know, when the look just says, I've seen a little of

1268
00:56:03.539 --> 00:56:03.900
her.

1269
00:56:04.019 --> 00:56:06.900
But I mean, it's a horrible black sort of pun.

1270
00:56:06.900 --> 00:56:13.320
I just had to pause for, as Richard has handed me some sort of

1271
00:56:13.320 --> 00:56:14.699
space swap live.

1272
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:16.679
It's very interesting.

1273
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:19.320
I can't really describe it.

1274
00:56:19.380 --> 00:56:21.900
That's what they're trying. to me and Elizabeth Taylor.

1275
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:24.659
I was going to say, who was what terrible woman?

1276
00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:26.400
It was that terrible, that's what they're trying to do.

1277
00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:27.239
I didn't mean to stop you.

1278
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:28.559
I thought you'd get a laugh while you were ready.

1279
00:56:28.619 --> 00:56:32.460
I think that's what, is that what they're trying to do to with the

1280
00:56:32.460 --> 00:56:35.699
female characters because it's like, it's all, they're almost

1281
00:56:35.699 --> 00:56:40.860
interchangeable and it's only the loudness of NISA or the

1282
00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:44.159
diminution of, sorry, the loudness of Tegan or the diminution of, I

1283
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:44.940
can't even say Tegan.

1284
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:47.880
I mean, so that, yeah, it's the swapsy thing is it's like, you

1285
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:50.099
know, you've got these labels and that's who you are, but what's

1286
00:56:50.099 --> 00:56:50.460
underneath?

1287
00:56:51.059 --> 00:56:54.179
Well, I mean, you've never had anything underneath with the

1288
00:56:54.179 --> 00:56:55.440
doctorly companions, have you?

1289
00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:58.260
Like, you know, not since Barbara and Ian, obviously.

1290
00:56:58.320 --> 00:56:59.460
Yeah, that's true actually.

1291
00:56:59.519 --> 00:57:01.139
They do become Sarah.

1292
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:06.780
They become sort of one sentence, high concept, things, you know

1293
00:57:06.780 --> 00:57:10.380
they're from such and such a planet, and they are a mathematician

1294
00:57:10.380 --> 00:57:14.400
or they, as usual, know very little about telebion genesis.

1295
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.079
Oh, God, in 3 weeks, you weren't going to be like, pig in, Mark.

1296
00:57:19.139 --> 00:57:22.920
You know, it's funny what you say there about comedy, Todd, because

1297
00:57:22.920 --> 00:57:26.699
bit mean scripts are always quite witty.

1298
00:57:26.760 --> 00:57:27.239
Yeah.

1299
00:57:27.239 --> 00:57:30.599
You know, we'll get some jokes in Castro Valva, and one of my

1300
00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:34.019
favourite ever Doctor Who jokes is coming up in front of us when

1301
00:57:34.019 --> 00:57:36.900
Mr. Range is talking about, um, Oh, you know, the ship was

1302
00:57:36.900 --> 00:57:37.199
amazing.

1303
00:57:37.260 --> 00:57:39.539
It had failproof technology and the doctor says what happened.

1304
00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:40.260
It fails.

1305
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:43.380
You know, big thing's actually quite witty.

1306
00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:44.760
It does make me wonder.

1307
00:57:45.059 --> 00:57:49.139
Has he ripped out everyone else's comedy so he can book funnier?

1308
00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:52.860
Oh, no, I think he's just reacting against season 17.

1309
00:57:53.039 --> 00:57:53.219
Right.

1310
00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:57.239
And, you know, leisure hide is about saying we're here and it's

1311
00:57:57.239 --> 00:57:57.840
going to be different.

1312
00:57:57.900 --> 00:57:59.460
Wasn't that his brief though?

1313
00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:01.559
Oh, I think that's perfectly fine.

1314
00:58:01.619 --> 00:58:03.059
I have no problem with that.

1315
00:58:03.119 --> 00:58:04.800
That's why I love the leisure high.

1316
00:58:04.860 --> 00:58:06.420
You mentioned Fermarsi?

1317
00:58:06.480 --> 00:58:12.599
At last, I've cut you down to side, but the master says that and

1318
00:58:12.599 --> 00:58:14.280
the doctor has shrunk inside.

1319
00:58:14.340 --> 00:58:16.679
I really like that mini Tartis model.

1320
00:58:16.800 --> 00:58:20.579
And I actually like Tom looking out up at the faces of Adric

1321
00:58:20.579 --> 00:58:23.579
Nisser and Tegan, or if it's just Mr. and Tegan, and just the

1322
00:58:23.579 --> 00:58:28.500
horror that's in his face is lying in there, just as a moment that

1323
00:58:28.500 --> 00:58:33.059
they didn't quite plan for, that he's not sort of like horrified

1324
00:58:33.059 --> 00:58:35.880
that he's that small, but it's the people looking at him outside

1325
00:58:35.880 --> 00:58:39.239
that he's actually horrific, don't they?

1326
00:58:39.360 --> 00:58:43.739
And that's why I'll stay here, thanks. that shock, like, however

1327
00:58:43.739 --> 00:58:47.039
it's done where he's looking up in that angle. another great

1328
00:58:47.039 --> 00:58:48.239
another great directorial moment.

1329
00:58:48.360 --> 00:58:50.699
Yeah, and what I discovered recently.

1330
00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:53.159
And, you know, it's a great thing when you can come back to

1331
00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:55.500
stories you're obviously so familiar with and discover new

1332
00:58:55.500 --> 00:58:55.739
things.

1333
00:58:55.800 --> 00:58:59.340
There's that in that scene where the doctor shrunk in the TARDIS

1334
00:58:59.340 --> 00:59:02.039
and he misquotes Huxley.

1335
00:59:02.099 --> 00:59:03.960
The cheeseboard is the world.

1336
00:59:04.019 --> 00:59:07.980
Thomas Huxley, yes. 1825 to 1892 or something.

1337
00:59:08.099 --> 00:59:11.340
And of course, Huxley was a huge proponent of Charles Darwin's

1338
00:59:11.340 --> 00:59:11.579
theory.

1339
00:59:11.639 --> 00:59:13.260
Now, privately...

1340
00:59:13.260 --> 00:59:17.099
He wore a lot of ladies underwear, but that's over here.

1341
00:59:17.579 --> 00:59:21.239
Well, they were a lot more secure than men's back then, but

1342
00:59:21.239 --> 00:59:25.380
privately, he didn't always agree with everything Darwin said, but

1343
00:59:25.380 --> 00:59:26.699
publicly he supported him.

1344
00:59:26.699 --> 00:59:31.800
And Huxley is credited with the definition and coining of

1345
00:59:31.800 --> 00:59:33.059
agnosticism.

1346
00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:38.940
The idea that in Huxley's words, or paraphrasing Huxley's words

1347
00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:44.219
that you should believe what you can in science up until the point

1348
00:59:44.219 --> 00:59:47.039
that there is no information and then extrapolate from there.

1349
00:59:47.099 --> 00:59:51.900
Now, what we take agnosticism to me now is not having a strong

1350
00:59:51.900 --> 00:59:54.300
opinion either way, whether there is a god or not.

1351
00:59:54.360 --> 00:59:57.179
Well, you're going back to Aristotelian, aren't you?

1352
00:59:57.300 --> 01:00:00.960
You're actually going back to Socratic dialogue and the concepts

1353
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:06.059
of that sort of aporhea concept, the idea that you can't have that

1354
01:00:06.059 --> 01:00:09.780
there are some things that can't have satisfactory definitions.

1355
01:00:09.840 --> 01:00:10.320
Yeah.

1356
01:00:10.380 --> 01:00:14.039
I mean, agnosticism also is the belief that it's not possible to

1357
01:00:14.039 --> 01:00:15.900
know whether there's a god.

1358
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:18.239
Or to get a laugh out of a script.

1359
01:00:18.300 --> 01:00:18.480
Yeah.

1360
01:00:18.539 --> 01:00:22.260
Yeah, it's possible within this. with what we know again.

1361
01:00:22.320 --> 01:00:25.739
But when I had that knowledge, And I considered the story again.

1362
01:00:25.800 --> 01:00:30.179
I thought, you know what, this story is quite agnostic, because

1363
01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:33.480
the logopolitans are holding the universe together through

1364
01:00:33.480 --> 01:00:34.199
mathematics.

1365
01:00:34.260 --> 01:00:36.780
Wizards with abacuses, aren't they?

1366
01:00:36.840 --> 01:00:37.320
Exactly.

1367
01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:39.840
They're holding it together through science, but it's also magic

1368
01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:43.619
but it's science, but it's magic, and backcoming.

1369
01:00:44.159 --> 01:00:47.460
Isn't that another Russell T. Davies series, something about

1370
01:00:47.460 --> 01:00:48.539
science versus magic?

1371
01:00:48.599 --> 01:00:49.679
Oh, the 2nd coming.

1372
01:00:49.739 --> 01:00:51.539
No, wizards versus aliens.

1373
01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:53.039
Oh, sorry.

1374
01:00:53.099 --> 01:00:53.820
Sorry.

1375
01:00:54.000 --> 01:00:56.159
But that's the thing.

1376
01:00:56.219 --> 01:00:58.920
I thought, hang on, this script is quite agnostic as well, because

1377
01:00:58.920 --> 01:01:03.599
you have these metaphysical quasi-religious themes.

1378
01:01:03.659 --> 01:01:07.380
I mean, even the way the watcher is treated, and you know

1379
01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:09.300
everything the watcher says is reported.

1380
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:11.639
Yeah, you never hear him.

1381
01:01:11.639 --> 01:01:14.639
When Adric comes back from talking with the watcher, he doesn't

1382
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:16.320
say what the watcher told him.

1383
01:01:16.380 --> 01:01:19.260
He says, it seems like he knows what is going to happen.

1384
01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.219
Well, you know where this is coming from, don't you?

1385
01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:24.780
And you're mentioning Huxley.

1386
01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:26.519
You haven't mentioned Kabbala yet, have you?

1387
01:01:26.579 --> 01:01:27.179
No, I haven't.

1388
01:01:27.239 --> 01:01:29.639
You haven't mentioned the 1492 expulsion.

1389
01:01:29.699 --> 01:01:31.380
We can go back to the massacre again.

1390
01:01:31.440 --> 01:01:32.099
How exciting.

1391
01:01:32.159 --> 01:01:34.920
However, in this case, it's Spain, and the unification of Spain

1392
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.579
meant we get rid of the Gs, and we get rid of who else did we get

1393
01:01:38.579 --> 01:01:39.719
rid of when we did that?

1394
01:01:39.780 --> 01:01:43.079
Anyway, we got rid of our amours in Spain, anyone who wasn't us.

1395
01:01:43.139 --> 01:01:46.380
And they went off to Venice and started something called, you know

1396
01:01:46.380 --> 01:01:47.340
an empire.

1397
01:01:47.400 --> 01:01:49.260
And they just did very nicely.

1398
01:01:49.320 --> 01:01:49.679
Thank you.

1399
01:01:49.739 --> 01:01:53.460
But they also brought to the west the concept of Kabbala, or that

1400
01:01:53.460 --> 01:01:57.420
you can build the world, or the world is built by the words of God

1401
01:01:57.420 --> 01:01:59.340
the word, in other words.

1402
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:01.440
And that is also mathematical.

1403
01:02:01.559 --> 01:02:05.159
So that is, if you can, it's always in Hebrew, of course.

1404
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:10.079
But if you can construct, Obviously, Clark wrote the 9000000000

1405
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:12.840
names of God, a short story. anyone read that once, spoiler

1406
01:02:12.840 --> 01:02:13.139
alert.

1407
01:02:13.199 --> 01:02:14.579
Yeah, the stars go out at the end.

1408
01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:17.519
I calculated the name.

1409
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:20.340
Yes, the name of God, because they put a program in, then the

1410
01:02:20.340 --> 01:02:22.860
universe stops because, hey, the whole reason for existence has

1411
01:02:22.860 --> 01:02:24.300
now stopped.

1412
01:02:24.360 --> 01:02:27.000
So Doctor Who is looking at all these beautiful historical

1413
01:02:27.000 --> 01:02:29.639
antecedenty things, which is what Doctor Who does really well

1414
01:02:29.639 --> 01:02:31.860
except does it make it to screen?

1415
01:02:31.920 --> 01:02:35.280
Is that intensity of interest that you're seeing now for anyone

1416
01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:35.760
here?

1417
01:02:35.820 --> 01:02:37.679
Is that you getting that in this story?

1418
01:02:37.739 --> 01:02:39.900
I think it's more prosaic than that.

1419
01:02:39.960 --> 01:02:44.159
And I think that bidmead is foreseeing what our computers do now

1420
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:50.400
which is they model 3 dimensional objects and space-time events we

1421
01:02:50.400 --> 01:02:55.199
see seeing of that happening on the screen on the Tata screen when

1422
01:02:55.199 --> 01:02:59.039
the doctor shows us how a pyramid is created, but you have a

1423
01:02:59.039 --> 01:03:01.920
computer creating an image of a pyramid, and it's pretty

1424
01:03:01.920 --> 01:03:02.519
primitive.

1425
01:03:02.579 --> 01:03:06.480
But nowadays our computers and Legopolis is a computer. create

1426
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:11.159
detail of 3D worlds routinely, including Doctor Who, in fact.

1427
01:03:11.219 --> 01:03:14.639
That question you just asked me, Richard, off, is that something I

1428
01:03:14.639 --> 01:03:15.719
picked up on as a child?

1429
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:16.260
No, no.

1430
01:03:16.320 --> 01:03:17.940
No, but I mean, even as a viewer now.

1431
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:21.719
But the thing is, as a child, I always watch this story, and at

1432
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:24.599
the end, I was left going, there's something I'm not seeing.

1433
01:03:24.659 --> 01:03:29.400
I always felt there was there were ideas behind it.

1434
01:03:29.400 --> 01:03:32.699
And the thing is, the conceptual horror of the story.

1435
01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:35.760
The conceptual horror of the end of the universe always got

1436
01:03:35.760 --> 01:03:36.719
through to me as a kid.

1437
01:03:36.780 --> 01:03:40.079
I found this story terrifying, but not really because of the

1438
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:40.500
visuals.

1439
01:03:40.559 --> 01:03:42.239
I mean, the monitor dying.

1440
01:03:42.300 --> 01:03:47.159
Um, you know, death by CSO static did terrify me as a child, you

1441
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:47.400
know.

1442
01:03:47.460 --> 01:03:52.500
But the greater terror to me was the idea of the end of the

1443
01:03:52.500 --> 01:03:52.920
universe.

1444
01:03:52.980 --> 01:03:56.940
Although, interestingly, as a child, I'd be interested to know if

1445
01:03:56.940 --> 01:04:04.320
you guys felt the same way, is I didn't understand the CVE-space

1446
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:08.940
connection until I was in my teens and sort of watched the story

1447
01:04:08.940 --> 01:04:11.760
in situ because I suppose it is just to throw away.

1448
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:13.920
Like, Todd, is that something you picked up on that it was a

1449
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:15.840
culmination of these plots strands from earlier?

1450
01:04:15.900 --> 01:04:17.639
No, not with the CVE stuff.

1451
01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:19.800
But I was only 8 or 9 or whatever.

1452
01:04:19.860 --> 01:04:21.480
So I didn't really pick it up at that time.

1453
01:04:21.539 --> 01:04:25.679
But it's only been, it's a line, you know?

1454
01:04:25.739 --> 01:04:28.860
And if you missed that line or don't hear it properly, then that's

1455
01:04:28.860 --> 01:04:29.159
the difference.

1456
01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:32.820
Because you're not, you know, and so it was only years later that

1457
01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:37.440
I went, oh, that is a throne, that is tying all that stuff back

1458
01:04:37.440 --> 01:04:37.739
in.

1459
01:04:37.800 --> 01:04:39.960
I think one of the reasons the story, things that can get away

1460
01:04:39.960 --> 01:04:43.440
with having no plot is that it is the capstone of all of this

1461
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:46.619
stuff that's been happening all season and so you get, you know

1462
01:04:46.619 --> 01:04:49.559
mentions of Romani, you get mentions of the CVA, you get mentions

1463
01:04:49.559 --> 01:04:51.420
of track, and you get all of these things.

1464
01:04:51.480 --> 01:04:53.519
It has been telling a continuous story.

1465
01:04:53.579 --> 01:04:57.059
And so this is Doctor Who's 1st real proper season finale in the

1466
01:04:57.059 --> 01:04:58.739
sense that we have them now.

1467
01:04:59.099 --> 01:05:03.900
And so, you know, Big Mead thinks we can just sort of faff around

1468
01:05:03.900 --> 01:05:09.659
and stuff and maybe have 2 episodes worth of story because he's

1469
01:05:09.659 --> 01:05:13.019
you know, telling a bigger, he's telling a bigger story here.

1470
01:05:13.079 --> 01:05:15.360
I mean, does that affect people tuning in?

1471
01:05:15.420 --> 01:05:20.219
I mean, that again, I'm going to go on my little rating.

1472
01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:23.940
Well, I'm curious to know because there was there was a lot of

1473
01:05:23.940 --> 01:05:27.599
press and Tom Baker was interviewed 3 or 4 times about leaving the

1474
01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:27.960
series.

1475
01:05:28.019 --> 01:05:29.280
So what were the ratings like, top?

1476
01:05:29.340 --> 01:05:32.280
Episode one got 7.one million.

1477
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:35.099
Episode 2 got 7.7 and place 57.

1478
01:05:35.400 --> 01:05:36.900
Now that's the highest placing for the season.

1479
01:05:36.960 --> 01:05:37.860
Right?

1480
01:05:37.920 --> 01:05:41.039
Now, of course, these are just like terrible compared to like his

1481
01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:42.000
previous 6 years.

1482
01:05:42.059 --> 01:05:45.719
We've talked about how awful the early parts of the season.

1483
01:05:45.780 --> 01:05:46.920
Yeah, they weren't doing.

1484
01:05:46.980 --> 01:05:51.780
Episode three, 5.8 Came 102nd or 3rd in the chart and his last

1485
01:05:51.780 --> 01:05:53.820
episode, 6.one million.

1486
01:05:53.880 --> 01:05:54.420
Ooh.

1487
01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:55.739
Thud.

1488
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:57.539
Yeah, and it's...

1489
01:05:57.539 --> 01:05:59.039
I don't know.

1490
01:05:59.099 --> 01:06:02.280
When I 1st saw those figures whenever it was in the mid 80s, I was

1491
01:06:02.280 --> 01:06:03.300
actually really astounded.

1492
01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:07.739
And now I'm sort of heartbroken by them, really.

1493
01:06:07.800 --> 01:06:08.280
To think that.

1494
01:06:08.699 --> 01:06:09.420
Does it make sense though?

1495
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:12.960
Well, we've talked about the fact that the show was eroding its

1496
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:17.400
renewal fan base, you know, over most of the John Baker Eva

1497
01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:17.579
really.

1498
01:06:17.639 --> 01:06:21.059
And is that because they're not including, I love what you said

1499
01:06:21.059 --> 01:06:23.699
earlier, the age or 9 year olds, because I was thinking when you

1500
01:06:23.699 --> 01:06:27.599
were all talking, I was 14 when this 1st broadcast and it felt

1501
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:32.280
great to be smarty smug and going to school and being able to look

1502
01:06:32.280 --> 01:06:34.139
up CVs and stuff and talk about that.

1503
01:06:34.199 --> 01:06:37.980
And that's great for a nerdy 14 year old boy who hasn't discovered

1504
01:06:37.980 --> 01:06:41.460
anything beyond, you know, onanism and self-discovery through

1505
01:06:41.460 --> 01:06:42.840
encyclopaedias.

1506
01:06:42.900 --> 01:06:47.699
But for, as you say, the fan base is actually everyone else, which

1507
01:06:47.699 --> 01:06:50.280
is the 4 other or 5 other members of the family, you've just

1508
01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:52.380
diminished your audience by 3 quarters.

1509
01:06:52.500 --> 01:06:55.980
How does Castro Valver go, do you know?

1510
01:06:56.039 --> 01:06:58.139
Eights and nine million?

1511
01:06:58.199 --> 01:06:58.500
Right.

1512
01:06:58.559 --> 01:06:59.039
Yeah, right.

1513
01:06:59.099 --> 01:07:01.920
There's immediate bup at the beginning of next season.

1514
01:07:01.980 --> 01:07:06.000
I've mentioned this before, that next year, half the episodes will

1515
01:07:06.000 --> 01:07:07.739
be inside the top 50, right?

1516
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:10.739
The lowest rating for next season will be 8.1 million.

1517
01:07:10.860 --> 01:07:12.239
And when does it move to a weeknight?

1518
01:07:12.300 --> 01:07:12.900
Next year.

1519
01:07:12.960 --> 01:07:13.679
Next year. next year.

1520
01:07:14.460 --> 01:07:18.960
This season is possibly because of Buck Rogers, but has indicated

1521
01:07:18.960 --> 01:07:22.619
that that family audience on Saturday afternoon is not there

1522
01:07:22.619 --> 01:07:24.119
anymore for Doctor Who.

1523
01:07:24.179 --> 01:07:24.480
Yes.

1524
01:07:24.480 --> 01:07:29.400
You know, I think if Tom had decided not to leave, I think the

1525
01:07:29.400 --> 01:07:31.739
show could have quite easily been taxed at this point based on

1526
01:07:31.739 --> 01:07:33.300
ratings and saying, look, we're not going to continue.

1527
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:35.699
It needed to have something new.

1528
01:07:35.760 --> 01:07:40.800
And, you know, Davidson coming in and the bump that is next season

1529
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:43.019
which averages around 9 million, right?

1530
01:07:43.079 --> 01:07:44.940
Then, you know, you get through season 19.

1531
01:07:45.059 --> 01:07:47.340
Well, you're going to do a 20th season because it's 20 years of

1532
01:07:47.340 --> 01:07:47.760
Doctor Who.

1533
01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:48.239
Yeah, yes.

1534
01:07:48.900 --> 01:07:54.360
So I think that brings us squarely to the regeneration.

1535
01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:57.420
All those flashbacks.

1536
01:07:57.480 --> 01:07:59.099
I mean, is this the 1st time that we've had?

1537
01:07:59.099 --> 01:08:01.320
Yeah, these splashbacks.

1538
01:08:01.380 --> 01:08:03.300
I think it's the 1st time we've had flashbacks.

1539
01:08:03.360 --> 01:08:04.679
And that music.

1540
01:08:05.280 --> 01:08:07.920
I think the music is spectacularly good.

1541
01:08:07.980 --> 01:08:10.980
Oh, throughout all the little themes throughout the entire thing

1542
01:08:10.980 --> 01:08:14.219
but also at that and the emotions that it just stirs up and just

1543
01:08:14.219 --> 01:08:18.000
seeing all of those old characters, and even now, even when I

1544
01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:21.420
watch it, it still tears well in my eyes at that point.

1545
01:08:21.539 --> 01:08:27.180
Yeah, JNT was very keen to have those montages and Ian Levine was

1546
01:08:27.180 --> 01:08:30.239
acting as unofficial family liaison.

1547
01:08:30.300 --> 01:08:32.819
So it was Ian Levine going through and finding the appropriate

1548
01:08:32.819 --> 01:08:36.119
clips, like you just said to him, I want as many villains and

1549
01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:39.420
companions just saying doctor, just saying his name.

1550
01:08:39.659 --> 01:08:42.539
He didn't really actually manage that, did he?

1551
01:08:42.659 --> 01:08:45.300
Because there's at least one of the villains who's saying

1552
01:08:45.300 --> 01:08:48.180
something else, but the word doctor is kind of dubbed over it.

1553
01:08:48.300 --> 01:08:49.920
Yeah, well, the pirate captain isn't even speaking.

1554
01:08:50.399 --> 01:08:54.000
I think he found that every time the pirate captain said doctor, it

1555
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:55.380
was like in long shot or whatever.

1556
01:08:55.439 --> 01:09:00.119
The weirdest one for me is Louise Jamieson, who's it's when she's

1557
01:09:00.119 --> 01:09:03.659
looking down at the yo-yo in the robots of death. it's a really

1558
01:09:03.659 --> 01:09:04.979
terrible shot of her.

1559
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:07.619
Whereas all the other companions, it's quite a good close-up of

1560
01:09:07.619 --> 01:09:07.800
them.

1561
01:09:07.859 --> 01:09:09.420
I never liked the ceremony.

1562
01:09:09.899 --> 01:09:14.579
Because it is a good close-up, but she says doctor's so quiet, it's

1563
01:09:14.579 --> 01:09:15.180
just this.

1564
01:09:15.239 --> 01:09:18.119
But you probably can't even hear what I just said to him.

1565
01:09:18.239 --> 01:09:20.939
No, no, it struck me at the time because I was just so in love

1566
01:09:20.939 --> 01:09:21.420
with Sarah.

1567
01:09:21.479 --> 01:09:23.039
I wanted a better clip.

1568
01:09:23.100 --> 01:09:24.479
Got it.

1569
01:09:24.539 --> 01:09:26.159
Damn it, you know.

1570
01:09:26.220 --> 01:09:28.859
The thing that always gets me about this.

1571
01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:32.340
And it's the end of this deconstruction.

1572
01:09:32.399 --> 01:09:34.380
But...

1573
01:09:34.380 --> 01:09:39.300
What those clips highlight, like, you know, you get Sarah, Harry

1574
01:09:39.300 --> 01:09:44.399
the brig, canine, Leila, Romana, Romana, it's like, and then all

1575
01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:47.399
of a sudden it's Adric, and it's like he's dying and he's

1576
01:09:47.399 --> 01:09:48.300
surrounded by people.

1577
01:09:48.359 --> 01:09:49.800
He's only just next.

1578
01:09:49.920 --> 01:09:55.260
And, but at the same time, I kind, I kind of think dramatically

1579
01:09:55.260 --> 01:09:57.600
that's very good because it's like they have tenants for

1580
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:01.079
generation when he's completely alone and it makes it all the more

1581
01:10:01.079 --> 01:10:01.680
palpable.

1582
01:10:01.739 --> 01:10:05.340
Of course, that great line that everyone quotes at the end, but

1583
01:10:05.340 --> 01:10:06.779
the moment has been prepared for.

1584
01:10:07.079 --> 01:10:09.960
Okay, it ends on a preposition, but who cares?

1585
01:10:10.020 --> 01:10:10.859
That's all right.

1586
01:10:11.220 --> 01:10:17.760
But also, and I don't, no, but it seems like they've put Tom in a

1587
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:21.899
slight ditch because it looks like he's just too flat into the

1588
01:10:21.899 --> 01:10:24.060
ground of legs at a weird angle.

1589
01:10:24.119 --> 01:10:25.500
Do you think it started burying?

1590
01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:29.460
Have you seen the art takes when he's absolutely savaging

1591
01:10:29.460 --> 01:10:29.939
everyone?

1592
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:33.060
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and they just just dial.

1593
01:10:33.119 --> 01:10:34.260
Yeah, he's really horrible.

1594
01:10:34.319 --> 01:10:36.119
He's a vile old queen.

1595
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:41.100
There's a great bit in that footage, which I love, where they're

1596
01:10:41.100 --> 01:10:43.500
discussing whether he's going to reach out to the watcher.

1597
01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:46.619
And the thing is, he's like, yeah, I'm going to reach out.

1598
01:10:46.680 --> 01:10:47.819
Oh, you want me to beckon?

1599
01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:49.859
I don't like a beckon.

1600
01:10:49.920 --> 01:10:51.119
I'm not calling him over.

1601
01:10:51.180 --> 01:10:53.340
You know, I'm not having a beckon.

1602
01:10:53.399 --> 01:10:56.039
And then a few seconds, a few seconds later, and you're sure that

1603
01:10:56.039 --> 01:10:58.199
Peter Grim might have been talking to the 4 assistant saying, oh

1604
01:10:58.199 --> 01:10:59.699
just give him what he thing wants.

1605
01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:00.720
It's 915.

1606
01:11:00.960 --> 01:11:05.159
And you hear the floor manager say, I'm sorry, total

1607
01:11:05.159 --> 01:11:07.260
misunderstanding on my part.

1608
01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:09.600
And to Tom's great credit.

1609
01:11:09.659 --> 01:11:11.760
He says, oh, darling.

1610
01:11:11.819 --> 01:11:13.680
That's even worse.

1611
01:11:13.739 --> 01:11:16.079
No, seeing that, I thought, yeah, you had to go.

1612
01:11:16.140 --> 01:11:16.619
Yeah.

1613
01:11:16.619 --> 01:11:20.640
Because you've been, you have become your own grand Guinole, grand

1614
01:11:20.640 --> 01:11:21.779
grotesque, horrible thing.

1615
01:11:21.840 --> 01:11:22.020
Yes.

1616
01:11:22.140 --> 01:11:23.819
But you know, what is great?

1617
01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:27.420
And I say, I say now, I think this was released on DVD over 10

1618
01:11:27.420 --> 01:11:28.020
years ago.

1619
01:11:28.020 --> 01:11:32.279
On the commentary, you have Christopher Hamilton bit made, Tom

1620
01:11:32.279 --> 01:11:33.779
Baker and Janet Fielding.

1621
01:11:33.779 --> 01:11:39.000
And Chris and Tom had this discussion about, you know, wondering

1622
01:11:39.000 --> 01:11:39.840
who that is.

1623
01:11:39.899 --> 01:11:42.359
Well, what was it hard for you to leave?

1624
01:11:42.420 --> 01:11:44.819
And Tom says, you know, I don't remember, I don't remember the

1625
01:11:44.819 --> 01:11:48.539
production of much of this because, yeah, I was so angry and I was

1626
01:11:48.539 --> 01:11:51.600
so bereft and Janet just says, well, you were horrible to me.

1627
01:11:51.659 --> 01:11:55.380
And he's like, to Matthew. was I?

1628
01:11:55.439 --> 01:11:55.859
I'm simple.

1629
01:11:55.920 --> 01:11:56.520
Take this scene.

1630
01:11:56.579 --> 01:11:57.180
This is what you did.

1631
01:11:57.239 --> 01:12:00.659
And to his great credit, he just goes, Darling, I'm so

1632
01:12:00.659 --> 01:12:01.319
incredible.

1633
01:12:01.380 --> 01:12:04.260
That must have been terrifying for you because you just started on

1634
01:12:04.260 --> 01:12:04.500
the show.

1635
01:12:04.560 --> 01:12:07.739
You can't have known how angry and tight I was.

1636
01:12:07.800 --> 01:12:08.579
I'm really very sorry.

1637
01:12:08.640 --> 01:12:10.439
Sure, it's easy to say that in hindsight.

1638
01:12:10.500 --> 01:12:11.819
What does Jen say?

1639
01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:15.060
Well, Janet is a bit taken aback.

1640
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:21.239
Janet is a bit taken aback by how contrite he is immediately, but

1641
01:12:21.239 --> 01:12:23.039
kind of goes, oh, you know, we knew that.

1642
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:27.359
And if we were kind of doing it now, I'd be able to say that, but

1643
01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:30.000
you know, I was 20 and I just, I didn't think about your position

1644
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:30.840
but thank you, Tom.

1645
01:12:30.899 --> 01:12:31.560
I really appreciate that.

1646
01:12:31.619 --> 01:12:35.939
And it, you know, it has the capacity to be this huge argument, but

1647
01:12:35.939 --> 01:12:38.699
it's actually diffused by 2 people being adults.

1648
01:12:38.819 --> 01:12:43.140
Yeah, I actually spoke to Janet and said how impressed I was that

1649
01:12:43.140 --> 01:12:47.039
she managed to get Tom to apologise in that commentary track.

1650
01:12:47.100 --> 01:12:49.560
Brilliant. one of her great merits.

1651
01:12:49.619 --> 01:12:52.800
I mean, we're coming up on an era of pretty terrible stories, but

1652
01:12:52.800 --> 01:12:55.800
great commentary tracks with Jonathan Peterson.

1653
01:12:55.859 --> 01:12:57.359
Love him to death.

1654
01:12:57.420 --> 01:12:59.939
Well, when things are terrible, the commentary tracks are all the

1655
01:12:59.939 --> 01:13:00.720
more interesting.

1656
01:13:00.779 --> 01:13:02.220
Yeah, so true.

1657
01:13:02.699 --> 01:13:09.239
But yeah, I will say just the loneliness of this regeneration is

1658
01:13:09.239 --> 01:13:09.779
what gets to me.

1659
01:13:09.899 --> 01:13:13.920
But the loneliness, but also the fact that it opened up to his

1660
01:13:13.920 --> 01:13:14.699
last moment of acting.

1661
01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:17.699
Tom suddenly smiles, you know.

1662
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:22.739
And in a way, it's kind of like John going, no, don't cry, Sarah

1663
01:13:22.739 --> 01:13:24.239
Jane, you know, Tia Sarah Jane.

1664
01:13:24.300 --> 01:13:27.840
It's it's Tom. it's Tom saying, no, no, you know, it's okay.

1665
01:13:27.899 --> 01:13:28.560
It's all right.

1666
01:13:28.680 --> 01:13:32.640
And then you get Peter sitting up at 10 seconds to 10 o'clock.

1667
01:13:32.699 --> 01:13:36.779
And Peter says, you know, people love that look I gave, that look

1668
01:13:36.779 --> 01:13:37.800
of slight bewilderment.

1669
01:13:37.859 --> 01:13:41.039
That look was, no one told me what to do.

1670
01:13:41.100 --> 01:13:42.899
They just said sit up and look around.

1671
01:13:42.960 --> 01:13:46.319
You know, they just scraped the makeup off me.

1672
01:13:46.380 --> 01:13:50.100
He looks like a deer in headlights, but I do like the fact that as

1673
01:13:50.100 --> 01:13:53.039
that is going through, you get that little question mark on his

1674
01:13:53.039 --> 01:13:53.340
face.

1675
01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:59.699
Not by design, nothing in the JNT era is ever by design.

1676
01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:01.560
It's all just a happy accident when it works.

1677
01:14:01.619 --> 01:14:04.199
And I really just love that little question mark that appears.

1678
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:05.579
With the stars.

1679
01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:06.539
No, no, no, no.

1680
01:14:06.600 --> 01:14:09.060
When he's regenerating from Tom into...

1681
01:14:09.060 --> 01:14:09.840
Oh, the collar.

1682
01:14:09.899 --> 01:14:15.659
No, no, in his face, in his cocoon, as they dissolve, is like, it

1683
01:14:15.659 --> 01:14:17.819
looks like it's not really a question mark, but it looks like a

1684
01:14:17.819 --> 01:14:19.140
question mark in me, just fine.

1685
01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:19.800
Happy accident.

1686
01:14:19.859 --> 01:14:22.619
And I could be wrong, but I believe someone said that in

1687
01:14:22.619 --> 01:14:26.939
dimensions in time, they've given Tom a question mark shaped

1688
01:14:26.939 --> 01:14:30.779
bruise on one cheek to employees been beaten about by the Rani.

1689
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:32.880
Are we given to a dimensions in time episode?

1690
01:14:32.939 --> 01:14:35.699
We should do a one hour episode on dimensions in time.

1691
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:36.479
Yeah, that's right.

1692
01:14:36.539 --> 01:14:37.500
One hour.

1693
01:14:37.560 --> 01:14:38.460
How long did it run for?

1694
01:14:38.520 --> 01:14:40.319
13 minutes or 26 minutes?

1695
01:14:40.380 --> 01:14:41.819
13 minutes too long.

1696
01:14:41.880 --> 01:14:47.399
Oh, as much as I, I think there's plot that doesn't exist in

1697
01:14:47.399 --> 01:14:47.760
this.

1698
01:14:47.819 --> 01:14:52.319
There are just so many moments and words and feelings that I love

1699
01:14:52.319 --> 01:14:52.920
about.

1700
01:14:52.979 --> 01:14:55.979
It's all my favourite of the season, but I always enjoy watching

1701
01:14:55.979 --> 01:14:56.460
it.

1702
01:14:56.760 --> 01:15:00.060
Could I ask Todd, what do you think of Tom's costume now?

1703
01:15:00.960 --> 01:15:03.359
Oh, yes, I've been waiting for this.

1704
01:15:03.840 --> 01:15:07.800
I really love it by the end of this.

1705
01:15:07.859 --> 01:15:11.819
You know, yeah, by the end of the season, it is, it is him.

1706
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:13.680
It is his character now.

1707
01:15:14.699 --> 01:15:17.579
It symbolises where we've come to.

1708
01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:22.319
I think for a long time this is my favourite season.

1709
01:15:22.439 --> 01:15:27.479
I think Legopolis is slightly disappointing as an end to it

1710
01:15:27.479 --> 01:15:31.500
because it's not altering to have much of a plot.

1711
01:15:31.560 --> 01:15:37.619
But, um, you know, I've said all sorts of things about, uh, crispy

1712
01:15:37.619 --> 01:15:45.479
made, but he does a tremendous job, and the show is interesting

1713
01:15:45.479 --> 01:15:50.340
and it builds a world and it tells a coherent story all the way

1714
01:15:50.340 --> 01:15:54.720
from full circle, and just visually, it's really, you know

1715
01:15:54.720 --> 01:15:55.380
inventive.

1716
01:15:55.439 --> 01:16:00.779
And it challenges Tom, and I really like Tom's performance in this

1717
01:16:00.779 --> 01:16:05.699
season a lot. that muted, like I love season 17 Tom, he's

1718
01:16:05.699 --> 01:16:06.239
hilarious.

1719
01:16:06.300 --> 01:16:08.640
You know, I love the Williams era.

1720
01:16:08.699 --> 01:16:13.800
You know, I'm quite happy to watch Tom Larking about, but this

1721
01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:17.760
more sombre muted restrained Tom is also really good too.

1722
01:16:17.819 --> 01:16:19.500
So I like this a lot.

1723
01:16:22.859 --> 01:16:24.779
However, after that.

1724
01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:27.600
Richard.

1725
01:16:28.619 --> 01:16:32.579
It's interesting to hear that it's so cadenced because that's very

1726
01:16:32.579 --> 01:16:32.819
true.

1727
01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:34.380
I haven't had a chance to talk about this season.

1728
01:16:34.439 --> 01:16:38.039
Other than to say, yes, I loved Tom's costume from day one.

1729
01:16:38.100 --> 01:16:44.939
It was patrician, and it was, it was almost, oh, gosh, it almost

1730
01:16:44.939 --> 01:16:46.619
felt like an Hungarian prince, didn't it?

1731
01:16:46.680 --> 01:16:49.380
I'm reminded of those terrible films that were coming out of

1732
01:16:49.380 --> 01:16:54.479
Hungary in the 70s of great coats and strapping 18th century

1733
01:16:54.479 --> 01:16:55.079
heroes.

1734
01:16:55.140 --> 01:16:57.420
And anyway, Tom fits into that mould perfectly well.

1735
01:16:57.479 --> 01:16:58.319
What is Dracula?

1736
01:16:58.380 --> 01:16:58.859
Yeah, maybe.

1737
01:16:58.920 --> 01:17:03.060
But there's, yeah, I'd love the look of this season and I still

1738
01:17:03.060 --> 01:17:06.239
very much love the Williams era, but he made it his own.

1739
01:17:06.300 --> 01:17:11.760
And there's a sense of loss throughout all of this with the, the

1740
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:16.319
jangling and jeering cheerfulness of the visuals and how, I guess

1741
01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:18.899
you can say, and for the time, this did look very sophisticated.

1742
01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:23.039
This was absolutely on par with everything else on TV in 1980,81.

1743
01:17:23.220 --> 01:17:26.460
We forget that all that TREC stuff wasn't around.

1744
01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:31.500
There were films that looked gorgeous, but TV, no, no, this was as

1745
01:17:31.500 --> 01:17:32.100
good as it got.

1746
01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:37.619
But all through this season, there was a sense of... a sense of, um

1747
01:17:37.619 --> 01:17:38.819
it wasn't just on we.

1748
01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:43.140
It's actually diminution, again, as a sense of loss, as it just

1749
01:17:43.140 --> 01:17:47.579
gradually fades through, just as an old person fades away, you

1750
01:17:47.579 --> 01:17:51.119
know, an oldly relative, and that sadness was there, and it was

1751
01:17:51.119 --> 01:17:51.659
the perfect age.

1752
01:17:51.779 --> 01:17:54.779
A many great flowers, a young adolescent when I saw it.

1753
01:17:54.899 --> 01:17:58.920
But I have to say, if I was a very young person, I can see why the

1754
01:17:58.920 --> 01:17:59.520
ratings dropped.

1755
01:17:59.760 --> 01:18:04.020
For me, as a child, I think I mentioned way back in Planet of the

1756
01:18:04.020 --> 01:18:07.619
Spiders, that regeneration stories are always something I came

1757
01:18:07.619 --> 01:18:08.939
back to again and again and again.

1758
01:18:09.060 --> 01:18:10.979
I think as a child.

1759
01:18:11.460 --> 01:18:14.699
This story was very much a visual one for me.

1760
01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:15.960
Watching this as a 5 year old.

1761
01:18:16.020 --> 01:18:18.720
So picking up on what you just said, Richard, I didn't understand

1762
01:18:18.720 --> 01:18:19.020
it.

1763
01:18:19.739 --> 01:18:25.140
But I enjoy, well, the bits of it I did understand I enjoyed.

1764
01:18:25.199 --> 01:18:30.720
But I enjoyed the visuals of it, and I enjoyed the what I would

1765
01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:33.359
now term the direction of it, but the look and the feel.

1766
01:18:33.420 --> 01:18:36.600
To me as a child flushing out the master makes perfect sense, but

1767
01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:39.300
you know, I appreciate as an adult, it doesn't.

1768
01:18:39.479 --> 01:18:41.760
But, you know, all the imagery with the watcher, the doctor

1769
01:18:41.760 --> 01:18:45.300
standing on the bridge with his head in his hands and, you know, we

1770
01:18:45.300 --> 01:18:46.560
can't hear it.

1771
01:18:46.680 --> 01:18:47.699
Maybe you can do it, yes.

1772
01:18:50.760 --> 01:18:53.220
The scenes with the doctor and Adrik.

1773
01:18:53.279 --> 01:18:56.159
Tegan burst again and saying, I demand to speak to him and

1774
01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:58.079
whoever's in charge of this shit.

1775
01:18:58.199 --> 01:19:02.460
The logopolitans themselves and their gentleness.

1776
01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:05.279
Yeah, there was there was just so much as a child that has kept

1777
01:19:05.279 --> 01:19:09.840
this in my affections and it's only grown in my estimation.

1778
01:19:09.899 --> 01:19:11.279
I'm not blind to its faults, of course.

1779
01:19:11.340 --> 01:19:15.180
And you've got the radio technician who's listening to classical

1780
01:19:15.180 --> 01:19:19.800
music and the doctor the doctor has to knock him out to stop the

1781
01:19:19.800 --> 01:19:20.460
master killing him.

1782
01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:22.560
The master's just like, well, that saves an awkward conversation.

1783
01:19:22.619 --> 01:19:23.939
It's really great.

1784
01:19:24.000 --> 01:19:24.359
Todd.

1785
01:19:24.420 --> 01:19:25.500
You wrote to say something.

1786
01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:28.560
I think you, is it taken?

1787
01:19:28.619 --> 01:19:30.539
fantasy who's ever in charge.

1788
01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:31.439
That's right.

1789
01:19:31.500 --> 01:19:33.060
Should that be who, Matt?

1790
01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:35.939
You know, when she says, my name, my name is Tika Javanka.

1791
01:19:36.000 --> 01:19:36.300
Yeah.

1792
01:19:36.359 --> 01:19:38.220
Like, that's just...

1793
01:19:38.279 --> 01:19:41.640
And then saying, oh, that looks just so real.

1794
01:19:41.699 --> 01:19:42.539
We're gonna keep it in.

1795
01:19:43.859 --> 01:19:47.279
I'm glad you did that for your intro because I was going to steal

1796
01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:48.720
it for mine, so I'm glad I didn't.

1797
01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:51.239
Ah, right.

1798
01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:53.340
I think it's time for...

1799
01:19:53.340 --> 01:19:54.119
Pix of the week.

1800
01:19:54.239 --> 01:19:55.439
Pix of the week, pix of the week first.

1801
01:19:55.500 --> 01:19:57.060
I might jump in first.

1802
01:19:57.180 --> 01:19:59.279
This is a bit of self-pomotion.

1803
01:19:59.340 --> 01:20:02.340
A couple of months ago, a book came out called Avenger World, The

1804
01:20:02.340 --> 01:20:05.760
Avengers in Our Lives. which is a charity anthology.

1805
01:20:05.819 --> 01:20:07.739
I submitted an essay too.

1806
01:20:07.800 --> 01:20:12.479
And it also features friends of the podcast, Alan and Alice Hayes

1807
01:20:12.479 --> 01:20:17.159
and Robert Fairclough, as well as it's got the son of Avengers

1808
01:20:17.159 --> 01:20:19.560
writer Roger Marshall, Rodney Marshall.

1809
01:20:19.619 --> 01:20:20.279
He written for it.

1810
01:20:20.340 --> 01:20:24.899
Dick Fitty from the BFI has written it for it, as well as Avengers

1811
01:20:24.899 --> 01:20:26.520
Research and writer Dave Rogers.

1812
01:20:26.640 --> 01:20:28.739
There's quite a few names in here.

1813
01:20:28.800 --> 01:20:33.359
And what it is, it's um, various writers talking about their

1814
01:20:33.359 --> 01:20:35.460
personal experience with the Avengers.

1815
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:37.920
It's all about Dr. Who.

1816
01:20:37.979 --> 01:20:40.560
Well worth reading just for that alone.

1817
01:20:40.619 --> 01:20:43.140
Doctor Who's surprisingly mentioned a few times.

1818
01:20:43.199 --> 01:20:44.939
It's available in hardback and paperback.

1819
01:20:45.000 --> 01:20:47.880
It's not available to an e-book because it is for charity.

1820
01:20:47.939 --> 01:20:52.380
All proceeds go towards champion Chanzige, which is a charity who

1821
01:20:52.380 --> 01:20:54.359
works with schools in Tanzania.

1822
01:20:54.420 --> 01:20:58.619
And we've actually already bought primary school a freshwater pump

1823
01:20:58.619 --> 01:20:59.880
for their school.

1824
01:20:59.939 --> 01:21:04.619
We've raised almost £700 to date buying those books.

1825
01:21:04.680 --> 01:21:09.600
So we'll include the links for that, but it's a, the hardcover is

1826
01:21:09.600 --> 01:21:09.899
lovely.

1827
01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:12.600
The cover design looks like an old 70s annual.

1828
01:21:12.659 --> 01:21:16.920
This is lovely artwork cover that's been drawn by one of the

1829
01:21:16.920 --> 01:21:17.579
writers.

1830
01:21:17.640 --> 01:21:19.260
Please do check that out.

1831
01:21:19.319 --> 01:21:24.720
And also, if you buy it through Lulu, the publisher. sign up to

1832
01:21:24.720 --> 01:21:26.819
their mailing list first, wait about half an hour, the Lulu.

1833
01:21:26.880 --> 01:21:28.079
Is that what she's doing now?

1834
01:21:28.140 --> 01:21:28.979
That's what she's doing.

1835
01:21:29.039 --> 01:21:31.439
They'll usually send you some sort of discount voucher.

1836
01:21:31.500 --> 01:21:32.640
But yes, that's my recommendation.

1837
01:21:32.699 --> 01:21:34.199
Avenger World, the Avengers in our lives.

1838
01:21:34.260 --> 01:21:38.640
It's got stories from the UK, various parts of Europe, so Russia

1839
01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:42.720
Italy, France, Spain, Australia, America, you know, Avengers fans

1840
01:21:42.720 --> 01:21:43.560
all over the world.

1841
01:21:43.560 --> 01:21:46.199
I was going to pick Doctor Who in 10 seconds, but I reckon that

1842
01:21:46.199 --> 01:21:48.060
guy's getting far too much exposure.

1843
01:21:48.119 --> 01:21:55.619
So I'm instead going to choose another podcast on a cult TV

1844
01:21:55.619 --> 01:22:01.560
favourite, which is called The Greatest Generation, and it's 2

1845
01:22:01.560 --> 01:22:06.300
guys who have a Star Trek podcast and they're a bit embarrassed

1846
01:22:06.300 --> 01:22:08.220
about having a Star Trek podcast.

1847
01:22:08.340 --> 01:22:10.800
Are there Americans, they're TV professionals.

1848
01:22:10.859 --> 01:22:12.300
I think they're really funny.

1849
01:22:12.300 --> 01:22:16.680
As we record, they've just started season 2 of Star Trek, the next

1850
01:22:16.680 --> 01:22:18.659
generation, they're putting it out really regularly.

1851
01:22:18.720 --> 01:22:22.979
If you like this, then you'll probably enjoy that more.

1852
01:22:26.100 --> 01:22:28.319
Well, if it's not who related.

1853
01:22:28.380 --> 01:22:31.619
And since we've talked about season 18, I'm currently reading Dr

1854
01:22:31.619 --> 01:22:34.920
Jule Lepore's true history of Wonder Woman, and the story behind

1855
01:22:34.920 --> 01:22:37.859
William Moulton Mast, and I'm actually reading three books on

1856
01:22:37.859 --> 01:22:37.979
this.

1857
01:22:38.100 --> 01:22:42.840
The other one is the Golden Thread by our very own Dr. Philip

1858
01:22:42.840 --> 01:22:45.899
Sandy neck beard fur, sound of fur.

1859
01:22:45.960 --> 01:22:49.500
And he, it's really interesting on the beginning of feminism.

1860
01:22:49.560 --> 01:22:54.659
And since, I suppose, Doctor Who is going to be about whatever the

1861
01:22:54.659 --> 01:22:58.680
voice of feminism was at this point, as we've had Romana.

1862
01:22:58.739 --> 01:23:03.479
We've had Lita, Sarah, Lita, both Romanas, and now we have Tegan.

1863
01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:07.020
So we do have somewhat of a parallel of that.

1864
01:23:07.079 --> 01:23:08.159
It's really interesting.

1865
01:23:08.279 --> 01:23:10.319
I thoroughly recommend it to a laport.

1866
01:23:10.380 --> 01:23:13.319
It talks about the invention of the lie detector.

1867
01:23:13.560 --> 01:23:17.640
It talks about a whole lot of other deviant subjects that were

1868
01:23:17.640 --> 01:23:21.359
also included in that, but it, if you're up for that kind of thing

1869
01:23:21.359 --> 01:23:24.239
but it does, it does actually talk about the beginnings of

1870
01:23:24.239 --> 01:23:27.539
feminism in the 20th century in a literary vein.

1871
01:23:27.779 --> 01:23:29.460
And comics.

1872
01:23:29.520 --> 01:23:30.600
Hmm.

1873
01:23:30.720 --> 01:23:34.500
I'm going to suggest that people check out an album called

1874
01:23:34.500 --> 01:23:40.079
Heartthrob, which was released in 2013, by Canadian twin sisters

1875
01:23:40.079 --> 01:23:42.479
and their names are Tegan and Sarah.

1876
01:23:45.600 --> 01:23:49.319
No H on the Sarah, but anyway, I think somebody's parents were

1877
01:23:49.319 --> 01:23:50.819
Doctor Who fans at this point.

1878
01:23:50.880 --> 01:23:51.300
I reckon.

1879
01:23:51.359 --> 01:23:56.039
So, um, yeah, I love the album and particularly the song, I was a

1880
01:23:56.039 --> 01:23:58.739
fool, who will be one of my favourite words.

1881
01:23:58.800 --> 01:24:00.420
A link of this.

1882
01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:02.699
So, yes, Tegan and Sarah check them out.

1883
01:24:02.760 --> 01:24:04.380
They've actually got a new album coming out soon too.

1884
01:24:04.439 --> 01:24:05.579
So look out for that one.

1885
01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:10.020
Springboarding off that when I was a tour guide at Sydney Tower

1886
01:24:10.020 --> 01:24:10.500
Restaurants.

1887
01:24:11.159 --> 01:24:15.479
We had a couple of sisters working for us, Tegan and Sarah.

1888
01:24:15.720 --> 01:24:18.659
And their parents were Doctor Who fans.

1889
01:24:18.720 --> 01:24:21.420
And then one day when we were taking a group of school children up

1890
01:24:21.420 --> 01:24:24.420
in the lift to the restaurant about 14 years old.

1891
01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:27.119
There was a bit of a commotion in the back of the lift and one of

1892
01:24:27.119 --> 01:24:29.159
the girls said, Adrix, stop poking me.

1893
01:24:29.220 --> 01:24:29.880
No.

1894
01:24:29.939 --> 01:24:34.439
And I just I just sort of whipped my head around and he said, yes.

1895
01:24:34.500 --> 01:24:36.539
I said, did she call you Adrick?

1896
01:24:36.600 --> 01:24:38.399
My parents are Doctor Who fans.

1897
01:24:38.460 --> 01:24:40.920
I don't think he was.

1898
01:24:40.979 --> 01:24:41.819
Okay.

1899
01:24:43.380 --> 01:24:46.680
That could be my puzzling creative choice for this season, but

1900
01:24:46.680 --> 01:24:48.239
it's not. level of cruelty.

1901
01:24:48.779 --> 01:24:51.600
So my puzzling creative choice.

1902
01:24:51.779 --> 01:24:55.500
And I apologise if I'm stealing anyone else's.

1903
01:24:55.619 --> 01:24:58.680
But it's got to be Edward Underdown.

1904
01:24:58.979 --> 01:25:02.520
Way back in the day, way back in the day, yeah.

1905
01:25:02.579 --> 01:25:03.180
Yeah, yeah.

1906
01:25:03.239 --> 01:25:07.020
Because he's not a terrible actor, but for God's sake.

1907
01:25:07.140 --> 01:25:08.100
He's a radio actor.

1908
01:25:08.159 --> 01:25:08.819
What is he doing?

1909
01:25:09.960 --> 01:25:12.239
He's reading it as if he's immerging his lines.

1910
01:25:12.420 --> 01:25:13.739
He's doing the accent.

1911
01:25:14.039 --> 01:25:17.699
Yeah, especially when you're on screen with bloody Jackie Hill.

1912
01:25:17.760 --> 01:25:19.800
She's going to act you off the bloody planet.

1913
01:25:19.859 --> 01:25:22.140
So yeah, Edward underdown.

1914
01:25:22.199 --> 01:25:24.180
I don't like to speak ill of it, but you were so good in the

1915
01:25:24.180 --> 01:25:24.600
Avengers.

1916
01:25:24.659 --> 01:25:25.619
What happened?

1917
01:25:25.680 --> 01:25:26.880
He was dead in this.

1918
01:25:26.939 --> 01:25:27.899
There you go.

1919
01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:31.859
So I think my puzzling creative choice.

1920
01:25:31.920 --> 01:25:35.340
We said it when we were doing Megloss and I don't know whether I

1921
01:25:35.340 --> 01:25:38.039
want to stick by it, but this is as close as I've gone to a Jenny

1922
01:25:38.039 --> 01:25:39.359
Land Award candidate.

1923
01:25:39.420 --> 01:25:40.560
So I'm going to go with it.

1924
01:25:40.619 --> 01:25:46.199
It is casting Jacqueline Hill as Lexa, because it just makes me

1925
01:25:46.199 --> 01:25:47.579
sad to watch Meg Gloss.

1926
01:25:47.640 --> 01:25:49.079
It does.

1927
01:25:49.140 --> 01:25:55.199
But, see, the difficulty is, that I don't think I wanted Barbara

1928
01:25:55.199 --> 01:25:57.359
to come back and meet Tom and stuff.

1929
01:25:57.420 --> 01:25:59.100
Like, I just think that would be terrible.

1930
01:25:59.159 --> 01:26:05.579
And as we said, in the podcast, she lifts that part and makes Lexa

1931
01:26:05.579 --> 01:26:11.159
so charismatic and so smart and so likeable, which are all playing

1932
01:26:11.159 --> 01:26:15.060
against the tired, you know, concept of the character from the

1933
01:26:15.060 --> 01:26:18.060
script, but in fact, I think she does improve it.

1934
01:26:18.119 --> 01:26:22.680
So, yeah, so it's an initially puzzling creative choice.

1935
01:26:25.739 --> 01:26:30.119
I haven't been doing this season, so only just watching it from

1936
01:26:30.119 --> 01:26:31.199
sidelines with you.

1937
01:26:31.260 --> 01:26:34.020
I certainly agree with the Jackie Hill one.

1938
01:26:34.020 --> 01:26:34.680
That would have been mine.

1939
01:26:34.739 --> 01:26:38.520
So, from that, I just say the way they've wound it up.

1940
01:26:38.579 --> 01:26:42.659
It didn't quite feel, it went in the right direction, although we

1941
01:26:42.659 --> 01:26:45.239
were, like, Regopolis as a story, actually, we, like, keeper of

1942
01:26:45.239 --> 01:26:48.899
track and the state of decay, the best of this season just had so

1943
01:26:48.899 --> 01:26:51.600
much imagery and redolence, and really worked.

1944
01:26:51.720 --> 01:26:55.619
Doctor Who stories work when they work on atmosphere and how they

1945
01:26:55.619 --> 01:27:00.539
make you feel, not so much what they say or what they do, although

1946
01:27:00.539 --> 01:27:01.800
they are integral to that.

1947
01:27:01.859 --> 01:27:05.279
And Magopolis succeeds then in episode one to do that.

1948
01:27:05.340 --> 01:27:08.699
But I think my puzzling creative choice is that Bidmead just

1949
01:27:08.699 --> 01:27:11.699
thought that humour didn't belong in Doctor Who anymore.

1950
01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:15.300
Because I think that actually would have helped the ratings sailed

1951
01:27:15.300 --> 01:27:17.880
through, and I think there are reasons which we'll get to next

1952
01:27:17.880 --> 01:27:18.960
year of why he left.

1953
01:27:19.020 --> 01:27:23.699
And we'll talk about that, and yeah, you can't...

1954
01:27:23.819 --> 01:27:26.579
My problem with my puzzling grave choice in the end, I'm sorry to

1955
01:27:26.579 --> 01:27:32.159
take so long to get there, is Bidmeat himself. and that he didn't

1956
01:27:32.159 --> 01:27:33.420
line his trajectory up.

1957
01:27:33.479 --> 01:27:34.079
He missed the shot.

1958
01:27:34.140 --> 01:27:35.819
He didn't quite get.

1959
01:27:36.060 --> 01:27:38.520
I don't know that he even does now.

1960
01:27:38.640 --> 01:27:41.880
Lala's quite strong on what she thinks about Bidmead's opinions

1961
01:27:41.880 --> 01:27:44.340
and directions, so I let her speak, say it instead.

1962
01:27:44.399 --> 01:27:46.439
But you know, it's quite accessible.

1963
01:27:46.500 --> 01:27:47.939
She'll say it to anyone.

1964
01:27:48.720 --> 01:27:51.180
We'll have to have the explicit tag.

1965
01:27:51.239 --> 01:27:52.680
Well, maybe.

1966
01:27:52.680 --> 01:27:54.060
I love her. a strong woman.

1967
01:27:54.119 --> 01:27:57.060
But it's just along the lines of, yeah, we need a bit of light

1968
01:27:57.060 --> 01:27:57.960
here, guys.

1969
01:27:58.020 --> 01:27:58.859
You need a bit of fun.

1970
01:27:58.920 --> 01:28:01.260
It's great to be clever. but clever without humour.

1971
01:28:01.380 --> 01:28:04.739
Clever with humour is the top end of the Avengers.

1972
01:28:04.800 --> 01:28:07.979
Clever without humour is where we got to in this season.

1973
01:28:08.039 --> 01:28:10.079
And the audience figures agree.

1974
01:28:12.060 --> 01:28:14.460
Wow, this is, this is tough.

1975
01:28:14.579 --> 01:28:17.220
I had a few, but I was considering.

1976
01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:22.380
One is putting all the companions in costumes, but I don't think

1977
01:28:22.380 --> 01:28:23.939
we're aware of that yet.

1978
01:28:24.000 --> 01:28:24.840
No.

1979
01:28:24.840 --> 01:28:28.800
The casting of Matthew Waterhouse is another.

1980
01:28:28.859 --> 01:28:32.640
Yeah, you know, I think that's...

1981
01:28:32.640 --> 01:28:36.119
I don't mean to be horrible to Matthew or anything like that, but

1982
01:28:36.119 --> 01:28:39.420
I think we've had better younger actors this season and last

1983
01:28:39.420 --> 01:28:41.039
season than him and why is that?

1984
01:28:41.159 --> 01:28:44.340
But I guess I'm going to go with the visual thing and it's those

1985
01:28:44.340 --> 01:28:50.880
bloody blonde wigs in megans. are palling beyond all belief.

1986
01:28:50.939 --> 01:28:52.560
That's my creative puzzle.

1987
01:28:52.979 --> 01:28:57.899
I think that's the 1st time one story has received 3 Gen.

1988
01:28:57.960 --> 01:29:00.479
It's not such a terrible story.

1989
01:29:00.539 --> 01:29:02.760
No, no, no, just No, we defended it?

1990
01:29:02.819 --> 01:29:04.560
Just very puzzling.

1991
01:29:22.619 --> 01:29:26.579
Next week, dear listeners, we will be back with our Tom Baker

1992
01:29:26.579 --> 01:29:27.779
retrospective.

1993
01:29:27.779 --> 01:29:30.960
And also, to give you an idea of a few things that are coming up

1994
01:29:30.960 --> 01:29:34.439
after the Tom Baker perspective, we'll be releasing flight through

1995
01:29:34.439 --> 01:29:38.760
entirety's first commentary track, that classic Christmas special

1996
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:39.899
canine and company.

1997
01:29:40.020 --> 01:29:41.039
Oh my goodness.

1998
01:29:41.100 --> 01:29:44.100
Are we actually going to be, I actually have to watch it. again?

1999
01:29:44.159 --> 01:29:44.460
Yes.

2000
01:29:44.520 --> 01:29:46.020
Oh, I wrote notes.

2001
01:29:46.079 --> 01:29:46.920
Oh this is terrible.

2002
01:29:48.420 --> 01:29:54.000
And before we head into Peter Davidson with Castra Valva.

2003
01:29:54.060 --> 01:29:57.899
Until then, you can find us online at flatthroughentirety.com

2004
01:29:57.899 --> 01:30:01.319
flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast

2005
01:30:01.319 --> 01:30:02.100
on Twitter.

2006
01:30:02.159 --> 01:30:04.800
Don't forget about our new video series, Doctor Who in 10

2007
01:30:04.800 --> 01:30:05.399
seconds.

2008
01:30:05.460 --> 01:30:11.640
And also over on Bondfinger, we have just started the Roger Moore

2009
01:30:11.640 --> 01:30:14.939
era with Live and Let Die, and we also have all the Sean Connery's

2010
01:30:14.939 --> 01:30:18.539
films, George Lathamby and David Neven and Casino Royale as

2011
01:30:18.539 --> 01:30:19.560
commentary tracks.

2012
01:30:19.619 --> 01:30:23.220
So you can find those on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook

2013
01:30:23.220 --> 01:30:26.279
and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

2014
01:30:26.340 --> 01:30:30.720
Until next week, may none of your radio telescopes cause the

2015
01:30:30.720 --> 01:30:31.920
sudden collapse of the universe.

2016
01:30:31.979 --> 01:30:33.119
Thank you very much for listening.

2017
01:30:33.180 --> 01:30:33.720
Good night.

2018
01:30:33.779 --> 01:30:34.319
Good night.

2019
01:30:34.380 --> 01:30:35.220
See you soon.

2020
01:30:35.279 --> 01:30:35.760
Good night.

2021
01:30:41.880 --> 01:30:45.359
That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd Beelby, Nathan

2022
01:30:45.359 --> 01:30:47.880
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

2023
01:30:47.939 --> 01:30:52.979
This episode, full of orphans, was recorded on May 1st, 2016.

2024
01:30:53.159 --> 01:30:55.680
The next episode will be released on May 29th.

2025
01:30:55.739 --> 01:30:58.619
We dedicate this episode to the memory of senior cameraman and

2026
01:30:58.619 --> 01:31:02.399
camera supervisor Alec Wheel, who worked on 148 episodes of Doctor

2027
01:31:02.399 --> 01:31:03.779
Who throughout the 1980s.

2028
01:31:09.899 --> 01:31:12.420
Legopolis, May the 1st.

2029
01:31:12.539 --> 01:31:16.260
I really think we should have recorded Keeper of Triathon first

2030
01:31:16.260 --> 01:31:16.560
though.

2031
01:31:16.619 --> 01:31:17.880
Shut up, Nathan.

2032
01:31:17.939 --> 01:31:19.800
Jesus.

2033
01:31:22.020 --> 01:31:25.380
Actually, I'm just thinking, when we get into, when we get into

2034
01:31:25.380 --> 01:31:28.739
Davidson, should we record Ford of Doomsday first, then the

2035
01:31:28.739 --> 01:31:29.939
visitation, then Kinder?

2036
01:31:30.000 --> 01:31:30.539
Yes.

2037
01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:32.760
Yeah, then release them.

2038
01:31:32.819 --> 01:31:34.020
Yes, in that order, yeah.