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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:35:58

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to this very special episode of Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, where we all have Talking Vegetables on our shoulders.

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I'm Brendan, and this is my friend Leroy.

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I'm Nathan and this is Smedley.

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I'm Richard, this is my friend Tom.

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Thank you, Richard for saving me.

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Why did you call the talking vegetable, Jesus Christ?

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That's the last question I'm going to ask because as this is a retrospective, That means Todd is in charge.

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So Mr. Beale, it may refer to you.

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Yes, I know him a lovely vegetable.

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He's a beautiful woman, probably.

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Probably.

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Thank you for putting me in charge.

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Oh my goodness.

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So here we are at the end of the Tom Baker era.

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How do we feel, guys?

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Tired.

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Well, I...

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I just edited 42 episodes of Tom Baker, so I'm feeling like I should be drunk.

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Let's get to it.

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I'm really pertinent question.

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Tom as a doctor.

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His performance.

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Now that you've watched all 7 seasons.

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How are you feeling about it?

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It's definitive.

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No, at least don't give me my responses.

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Okay, it's definitive.

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Okay.

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He is a lot more consistent than my, if you like, received wisdom and dipping in in and out of his era would attest.

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You know, and a lot of people say, oh, you know, he's great in the Hingecliff era and then he stops acting in Graham Williams and then he's grumpy for his last year.

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And it's like, oh, you know what?

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Actually, the coldness and the alienness of the part is always there.

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Certainly his jokiness does increase.

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And then he's doing a different thing again in season 18.

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But I think there are only very rare occasions, and I don't think it's ever one entire production, but I think there are rare occasions where Tom's just kind of fed up and phoning it in a bit, but I think, you know, that's happening in certain scenes rather than happening in whole stories.

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Like, you know, even if you look at something like underworld where it was incredibly unhappy with the production, he still gives the best performance he can for someone who's acting against a curtain.

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I've got a lot more respect for him and I think possibly where my impression came from was, you know, we were all fans in the 90s when the show wasn't on and we kind of, you know, had to make our own fun, as it were.

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And many lonely fan boys did, yes.

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And a lot of that came with bashing the program.

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And, you know, sometimes it was fun and affectionate in the way we do it.

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And sometimes you know, it was quite cruel.

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And there was, I seem to recall, the sort of move at the time to kind of say, oh, everyone says that Tom Baker was amazing.

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Well, I think he was rubbish.

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What do you think about that?

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And I think the truth is somewhere in between.

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They do that thing with their shoulders that you're doing right now.

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They did actually.

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James Sel, what if you're listening?

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Oh, James.

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Richard.

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Richard, what did you think, Todd?

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No.

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Nathan?

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No, from these questions back at me.

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I think I do think that he, I think I've said before that it's not an acting performance in a sense.

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And that's a bit unfair.

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The real thing about Tom Baker is that he's just really charismatic and just fantastic to watch.

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He's really, really, really great.

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I think.

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And, you know, he's much more central to every scene that he's in than any of his predecessors and certainly than his immediate successor.

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And, you know, Trouton is also terribly engaging to watch.

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Just lovely, but he's not, he doesn't have the look at me equality, but Tom has.

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And so I really think it's not just a function of, you know, when he was the doctor that makes him the version of the doctor that will appear on The Simpsons, the one that everyone thinks about.

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The American Convention circuit version of the doctor, actually.

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Yeah, the interpreted version.

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Yeah.

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It's because he's just magnetic..

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Yeah.

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He is, I guess, the cloisterball going, Tom.

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I agree.

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He certainly filled my box as a child and he still does, too overflowing.

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He really did take up more space than the picture tube, good handle, and it was extraordinary, and starting with him again at 8 or 9.

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Wow.

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And again, it's the Billy Piper principle looking at his head, which feature is the biggest, the eyes, the teeth, the nose.

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You can't tell.

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It's whatever you're looking at at the time.

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I was privileged to stand only inches away from his waist in 1979, and I have to say he is an enormous gentleman in every way.

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He really does fill up and take up a great deal of personal geography.

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He's just enormous.

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Just enormous in every single way, and lovely in income.

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He described pertly as incandescent, but I actually think that's more appropriate for Tom.

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And my, and the thing is, the reason I loved the show kept going with it.

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I didn't get to see Pat and Billy till much later, but we didn't even know who they actually were in the 70s as children.

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Well, there wasn't media around.

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And so as a young person, you actually, there was no way you could even see, to see them.

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It's nothing exciting until the Doctor Who Monster book came out.

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So yeah, they were just figures in a black pyramid like Todd used to often be.

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Yeah, I think Tom is the reason Doctor Who is still on to this day.

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I think that's a good point.

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I mean, I think the show, uh, before Tom, it was very much British in Australia.

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It wasn't really in America, you know, and that certainly happened during his time.

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Do you think he stayed too long in the role?

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Do you think that there is a negative or any negative to his legacy as the doctor or is it all positive?

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He's hard to replace.

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And I do think that that's a problem.

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And I think at least the next 2 doctors and the way that they're conceptualised or, in one case, not at all conceptualised by the production team is a problem.

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It's interesting for me that when researching the podcast to discover that Tom could have left in the Armageddon factor.

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And I was kind of thinking, yeah, would I have been satisfied with that?

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Kind of like, you know what?

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yeah?

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Yeah, he'd had a good run up until that point.

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We said that about old people.

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And they go.

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Well, he had a great innings.

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But, you know, it's kind of like other doctors I look at.

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And certainly all of the coming doctors. of the classic series, Peter, Colin Sylvester, I think, could have done more.

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Whereas John and Tom.

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I don't feel they outstayed their welcome, but at the same time, I kind of look at their eras and go, that's whole, that's complete.

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I think, you know, with the Davidson, as we'll discuss later, you know, he kind of said that had he known the script situation was going to improve.

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He may have stuck around.

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Colin, of course, was improving in the role when he was dumped and Silv, the whole show was dumped, even though he'd agreed to another year.

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So I suppose it's not quite the same situation as Tom, where much like John, there is some discussion as to whether he really wanted to leave.

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Because by reports.

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The last 2 years with Graham Williams, season 16 and season 17, Tom would sort of say halfway through the season.

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Well, I'm going unless this happens and Graham Williams would capitulate.

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Whereas with John Nathan Turner, Tom said, I'm going unless this happens and John Nathan Turner said, oh, okay, what do you think of Peter Davidson?

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And Tom kind of went, oh, well, uh, And, you know, there were other things as well.

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He was marrying Lyle Ward and also as he says now, you know, the show was changing into something that wasn't the show I wanted to make.

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But at the same time, you know, as Tom says now, it wasn't all about him.

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But at the time, it was all about him, you know, because and he's got a point in which he says, you know, I've been on the show for 7 years.

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They hadn't been on the show for 7 years.

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I know how to make this.

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And he's why the people at home are watching and he knows it, I think, you know.

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He is irreplaceable at this point.

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At this point.

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Your favourite companion from Tom Baker's time in the show.

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My favourite companion would be Sarah Jane Smith, I think that's just a no-brainer.

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She's charming.

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You know, she's not necessarily the best actor, um, but she's a sentimental favourite.

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It's no excuse that Russell brings her back and gives her her own show.

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In fact, they keep trying to spin her off.

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They keep trying to bring him back, as we learned last week.

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Uh, and it's no surprise.

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You know, it's a character with a fairly thin, basic concept, but I think she's terrific, the performance is great.

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I like what you said in the past.

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She's the first character that actually becomes so high concept.

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She stops being a person.

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And I had never thought of that or seen that until Nathan brought it up during this whole season.

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And now I can't see her as anything other than an action figure, and yet she's still my favourite all time after Barbara.

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But it's exactly what you see it.

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The companion's really good because they've just got the right producers behind them in the right direction and the right things.

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I mean, would list Laddin have been so extraordinary in all our hearts and minds had she been under Big Needs script direction.

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Very exciting.

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Yeah, no, I don't think so.

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I was kind of like, my, well, my answer to that question is the 1st Romana, Mary Tam.

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And I don't think she would have worked under Hinchcliffe or Bidmade.

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I think she would have been amazing under Hinchcliffe.

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I don't think she would have jailed with his vision of the show because, you know, she's got this aloof quality.

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But she might have played it differently.

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That's true.

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She may have done.

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But yeah, I think I think Sarah Jane Smith was kind of the perfect storm because she was cast by Barry Letts, of course, and thought when she was coming in that Hingecliffe would want to get rid of her, but he really liked her, but the character does go in that completely different direction.

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Has your opinion changed on the producers and what they brought to the program?

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In what way?

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It spun around like cotton Madras in the wash and all the colours have gone together.

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I used to think it was Hinchcliffe's as the zenith of fabulousness and then I thought in descending older than Graham Williams and then JNT and that because that was the received thinking in the 90s when, you know, after Gary Levy brought out Doctor Who Bulletin.

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Do you want to be?

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And it was just a slag fest against Sabred and JNT, and that was the, that was the received thinking.

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So, you know, Graham Williams was God, but Hinchcliffe was even put aside.

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But now I actually, yeah, it changes depending on what story I'm looking at, and there are great moments in all three.

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But for me, it's very distinct that we have 3 different doctors in Tom.

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And even Tom, with all his grandiosity and width and breadth and height and depth and girth. is only ever the sum of his puppet master's parts.

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And that actually what keeps that 7 years going.

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You've got 3 different doctors within the one doctor.

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It's quite unusual.

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You're not tired.

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Not at all.

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And then he does those extraordinary things in season 18 when you think when he is so tired and fatigued and lachrymose.

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And then he'll play play a walking cactus.

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But with such gravitas and such seriousness that you think, it's the same way that Oscar Wilde would write a villain, and you think, oh, this is so light and so silly, and then he'll put in some a moment of such darkness.

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Ooh, and everyone has to stop back and look.

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Tom does that several times in season 18.

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Todd's mentioned it during the podcast and it's really all the more exciting for the difference.

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Yeah.

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He's a good actor.

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We forget that.

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He's challenged several times since he's 18 and he's really great.

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And he's on the front foot is not, yeah, because when he gets lazy, this is the problem with a massive ego and a good talent, but a huge ego.

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They really do become their own worst enemies.

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Well, you see it at work as well.

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Brendan?

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Graham Williams, hands down, is my favourite producer of this era.

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Really?

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Absolutely.

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Because Hinchcliffe?

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Hinchcliffe produces an amazing show and it was incredibly popular and it's incredibly memorable.

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You know, you talk to people who watch Doctor Who casually as a child and they, they remember the mummies and they remember the Loch Ness monster.

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They remember the really well-spoken robots who would kill you with bicycle reflectors, you know, that sort of thing.

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And that's all from the mind of Hinchcliffe.

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But Graham Williams, had the task of being given a job he didn't really want.

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But then saying, What is the best program I can make out of these ingredients?

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And we get these 3 years of literary and lyrical style Doctor Who with no money, with no time.

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Yeah.

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And the problem is when the Hinchcliffe era falls down.

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Plan of the Beale, for instance, you know, with...

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Why is everyone nodding at this?

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But, you know, with its dull designs and its and it's Prentice Hancock, yeah, when the Hitchcliff era falls down, it doesn't have much to fall back on.

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When the Graham Williams era falls down, it's got in the invisible enemy, for instance, it's got the doctor and Leila standing with a wind machine going saying, where are we going into the land of dreams and fantasies?

199
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And prawns?

200
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and prawns.

201
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The power of crawl, the Armageddon, in fact, it kind of start to fall apart, but it's got Tom Baker and Mary Tann throwing witticisms at each other and has got some of the best lines of all time.

202
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She's not the easiest guest.

203
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And, you know, the doctor being horrified at the idea of having 6 Romana is badgering it.

204
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Yes.

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Yeah, the creature from the pit, which everyone says is terrible, is actually a brilliant commentary on capitalism.

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I think it's one of the wittiest, funnest stories.

207
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I really love Christian.

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To paraphrase Day of the Doctor, Graham Williams was the producer of Doctor Who when it was impossible to get it right.

209
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I agree.

210
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And the strikes and the money you've talked about this as well, and the during the time.

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Yeah, it was impossible.

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It's extraordinary that we got what we got.

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And we loved it at the time.

214
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Let's not forget that.

215
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I think it's really interesting. doing the podcast with you all, and you mentioned it, Richard.

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The things that Nathan, you've pointed out with Hinchley Vera.

217
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:25.139
And I certainly think he got the perfect storm.

218
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.720
He got the casting, he got the script editor, he got the budgets.

219
00:15:27.779 --> 00:15:29.100
You know, that makes his job easy.

220
00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:30.899
And that's what you're talking about here.

221
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:37.620
I've a new respect for Graham Williams and his script editors and what they've had to go through and what they ended up on screen.

222
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:43.200
As much as I don't like season 15, which I think is the worst season of Tom Baker by a long way.

223
00:15:43.259 --> 00:15:48.240
There are still elements in there that I like and enjoy as much as anyone else.

224
00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:49.860
But my opinions have changed.

225
00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:58.620
It's not through black and white, but Hinchcliffe is this, you know, demigod Williams is not so good and then J and T tries to make it, you know, something new and different.

226
00:15:58.679 --> 00:16:00.240
It's not as black and white as that.

227
00:16:00.299 --> 00:16:03.899
And that's something that I've discovered in this entire process.

228
00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:08.639
My favourite companion does remain Sarah Jane.

229
00:16:08.700 --> 00:16:11.639
But like has been pointed out.

230
00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:15.899
Her performance changes, especially after Harry and unit are taken away.

231
00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:16.799
Yeah, I don't like it.

232
00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:25.080
And it's very interesting that I'm perhaps not quite as enamoured as what I once was in those last few performances.

233
00:16:25.740 --> 00:16:39.600
I think there was pressure on the actress or just from the team or the changes that were happening there as well, and maybe when an actor decides to be, whether or not they're going to stay or go, that imbues the performers, did you get that feeling with her?

234
00:16:39.659 --> 00:16:40.679
Well, I don't know.

235
00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:45.539
I mean, I think there is a change in her performance towards the end, but I think that's more to do with the character becoming not real.

236
00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:49.019
Yeah, it kind of becomes impossible to play. horribly.

237
00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:51.600
In fact, now I'm reflecting on it.

238
00:16:51.659 --> 00:16:54.299
It's actually a 1st season.

239
00:16:54.299 --> 00:16:57.960
And her stuff with Harry that makes Sarah Jane Sarah Jane.

240
00:16:58.080 --> 00:16:58.679
Yeah, it is.

241
00:16:58.740 --> 00:16:59.940
It isn't the pert we year, is it?

242
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:00.419
Not really.

243
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:01.019
No.

244
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:01.799
Well, I don't know.

245
00:17:01.860 --> 00:17:05.339
I have a new appreciation for Harry Sullivan as a character.

246
00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.680
Underrated companion's spectacularly great.

247
00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:10.859
I think if we'd had another year of Harry and Sarah.

248
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:12.119
Yeah, yeah.

249
00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:13.140
Yeah, interesting.

250
00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:15.000
All right, I mean, talking of companions.

251
00:17:15.059 --> 00:17:18.240
Romana one, Romana 2, or just Romana?

252
00:17:18.779 --> 00:17:21.599
Oh, like how do we refer to her?

253
00:17:21.660 --> 00:17:23.759
Who do you prefer?

254
00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:25.500
Is there a preference?

255
00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:26.819
Mary Tam.

256
00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:38.460
Although, interestingly, it was Lala Ward when I was a child, and I think, and this was Lala's Rosemont Dethra, Lala appeals more to children and plays, plays, plays the character.

257
00:17:38.579 --> 00:17:42.240
Not childish, but with childlike interest and enthusiasm.

258
00:17:42.299 --> 00:17:50.519
And, you know, we see it in Hollywood movies with kids all the time, you know, the deepest inner desire of a child is to get one over on an adult.

259
00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.220
And that's what Romana 2 does constantly.

260
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:59.099
You know, you have these villains who are adults and very serious and, you know, stealing paintings for their value and whatnot.

261
00:17:59.220 --> 00:18:01.740
She uses her child abilities to get past them.

262
00:18:01.799 --> 00:18:09.779
But yeah, as an adult, I prefer Mary Tam just wandering around and being arch and, oh, you drop this, yes, into your hand.

263
00:18:13.500 --> 00:18:15.059
Nathan?

264
00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:16.259
I think they're both great.

265
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:22.559
I think they're both great. and they are different. like and for precisely the reasons we said at the time.

266
00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:38.099
You know, I had all those cracks about Mary taking a sabbatical from acting, slumming it in kids TV for a year, but she is so fun and she works terrifically well with Tom and she's so beautiful, you know, just tremendous.

267
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:43.980
But Lala is, is, Lala and Tom together work so well.

268
00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:49.259
She has this sort of infectious cheerfulness, which I just think is lovely.

269
00:18:49.319 --> 00:18:53.579
She is a bit more vulnerable, which is kind of nice for the drama, I think.

270
00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:58.319
When we were doing this, Remember, it was saying over that season, it's the same thing.

271
00:18:58.380 --> 00:19:01.559
You can't compare one woman to another.

272
00:19:01.619 --> 00:19:02.819
It's just all done.

273
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:04.799
And it's the same.

274
00:19:04.859 --> 00:19:11.700
And it's just like, they're both exquisite in their own way and the characters all the better for having them both play it.

275
00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:14.640
And I think that's why that character is so strong and strongly remembered.

276
00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:19.859
How often do you get 2 actors able to interpret the same part other than the doctor?

277
00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:24.599
Ramana's or the master who doesn't want to count because it's the same damn thing every time until missy.

278
00:19:24.660 --> 00:19:30.240
You had to have to go through a huge reboot and change the gender to get anything fresh out of the master.

279
00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:38.940
So, and that, maybe that's why, um, you know, it's done so well, this, and there's a BAFTA up there for, um, for that lovely woman.

280
00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:39.660
What plays missing?

281
00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:42.779
And something's gone out of my head because I'm an old person.

282
00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:43.200
Thank you.

283
00:19:43.259 --> 00:19:45.599
Sorry, Michelle, if you see me, you'll probably poke something in my eye.

284
00:19:45.660 --> 00:19:48.240
I saw what you wrote wrote on Jim Sangster's card.

285
00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:49.859
Did you see what she wrote?

286
00:19:49.980 --> 00:19:52.740
We can't see use of the words on this podcast.

287
00:19:52.859 --> 00:19:56.700
Yeah, no, I actually think the character is really interesting for having them both play it.

288
00:19:56.759 --> 00:19:58.500
And I just couldn't compare them both.

289
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.440
Of course they're completely different, but it's richer for having them both in it.

290
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:02.940
Yeah, it's interesting.

291
00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.019
It did take me a lot longer this time through to warm Tamala.

292
00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:08.460
It does, doesn't it, though?

293
00:20:08.579 --> 00:20:13.319
And even though she's so strong when she just comes in, she hits the mark right away, you don't think so.

294
00:20:13.380 --> 00:20:15.420
I don't think so, but I'm not going to go there with that.

295
00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.259
Again, what Brendan was saying as a kid, I preferred Lala?

296
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:19.559
Yeah.

297
00:20:19.559 --> 00:20:25.799
Now, I just I just adored Mary Tam. you know, maybe it's because she's no longer with us or whatever.

298
00:20:25.859 --> 00:20:32.880
I just really did and but there's nothing to take away from my life whose performances are so entertaining.

299
00:20:32.940 --> 00:20:37.019
So I guess on that note, we need to do a snog marry or more.

300
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:39.059
Scarrel.

301
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:41.940
What have I been living with all these years?

302
00:20:42.299 --> 00:20:47.460
So, I'll start with, I don't know, I'll start with Brendan.

303
00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:49.980
Snog, Mary, avoid, Adrik, Nisarotine.

304
00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:51.720
Oh, horrible.

305
00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:54.420
That's really for the Pete retrospective, isn't it?

306
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:56.279
It works here.

307
00:20:56.339 --> 00:20:57.059
We can do it again then.

308
00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:00.119
There aren't enough dental dams in the universe, God.

309
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:00.599
Okay.

310
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:04.140
Despite the fact she knows so little about telebiogenitors.

311
00:21:04.200 --> 00:21:06.359
We don't know that yet, do we?

312
00:21:06.420 --> 00:21:09.720
I think I would have to marry miss up.

313
00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:12.420
And I think that would be a perfectly pleasant time.

314
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.619
Oh God.

315
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:19.319
And just as it marches, I'd snog Matthew Waterhouse, I'd snog Adrick, he's held my mind.

316
00:21:19.380 --> 00:21:20.099
Yeah, but back then?

317
00:21:20.099 --> 00:21:32.579
Well, funnily enough, no, but it may come as a surprise to no one who's actually met me and Rod, but I do prefer the older gentleman. as Matthew Waterhouse is now.

318
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:35.160
Which is available?

319
00:21:38.460 --> 00:21:42.240
I shouldn't have used him in the snog.

320
00:21:43.319 --> 00:21:46.200
And so I'm afraid I'd have to avoid Tegan.

321
00:21:46.259 --> 00:21:53.099
At least certainly her, um, her performance in Lagopolis.

322
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:55.079
Which is always.

323
00:21:57.059 --> 00:22:02.700
So yeah, I would, um, Snuggadrick, Marinessa, and avoid Tegan.

324
00:22:02.819 --> 00:22:05.880
Nathan, here's your song, Mario Void.

325
00:22:05.940 --> 00:22:06.599
So long?

326
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:11.279
Countess Scalione. and Alexa.

327
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:19.500
So I would definitely marry Countess Scarlione because I would be able to get away with absolute...

328
00:22:20.940 --> 00:22:23.519
So you're definitely marrying her.

329
00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:26.400
I would obviously.

330
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:41.519
Oh, no, I feel there's no good choice because I love Alexa, but I feel like saying that I would snorgle Alexa is terribly disrespectful and it would be like, you know, snogging an elderly relative.

331
00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:45.420
So I'll have to snog so on and avoid legs.

332
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:47.579
Brendan's X would probably be different in this instance.

333
00:22:49.859 --> 00:22:52.319
Okay, Richard?

334
00:22:52.680 --> 00:22:54.900
Rex, does this go?

335
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:56.099
This is his favourite segment.

336
00:22:56.160 --> 00:22:57.960
Amelia Ducart.

337
00:22:58.019 --> 00:22:58.440
Oh, wow.

338
00:22:58.500 --> 00:23:01.259
Amelia Rumford or Auntie Vanessa.

339
00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:03.299
Fabulous.

340
00:23:03.359 --> 00:23:09.240
Fonda's one is of sausage sandwiches. limits the coast.

341
00:23:09.299 --> 00:23:10.920
So we have Professor Romford.

342
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:13.980
We have nearly a ducket.

343
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:15.059
Richard?

344
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:17.279
Auntie Vanessa.

345
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:23.700
Oh, it's being too close to home, is that Auntie Vanessa, I think, not even her driving skills would save me and I still don't have a license.

346
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:27.359
So I'd have to sort of cross, well, maybe she could take me on a drive.

347
00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:32.400
But then again, do cars got something of worth in her boot, hasn't she?

348
00:23:32.460 --> 00:23:42.059
So I'd probably be thinking, um, I definitely would have to be snogging, um, Professor Romford because she's got that lovely sausage breath.

349
00:23:42.059 --> 00:23:52.799
And it would have to be marrying, um, uh, Amelia Ducar because she's just got really, really nice wheels.

350
00:23:52.799 --> 00:24:01.079
And, um, it well, even though it's nicked and it would have to be avoiding Auntie Vanessa because, you know, she, well, she doesn't provide very much, does she these days?

351
00:24:01.140 --> 00:24:02.759
There's not a lot of bird to the pound.

352
00:24:02.819 --> 00:24:03.660
No.

353
00:24:03.660 --> 00:24:07.140
Thank you.

354
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:09.180
What's your greatest surprise?

355
00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:11.339
I think it's the hinge good thing.

356
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:15.000
Yeah, you kept saying that during the podcast too.

357
00:24:15.059 --> 00:24:19.920
We saw this as the Golden Gate to Glory and yet...

358
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:21.480
It was often not that great.

359
00:24:21.539 --> 00:24:23.579
The representation of women was really poor.

360
00:24:23.640 --> 00:24:25.200
It was torture porn.

361
00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:26.759
And it was totally quantified.

362
00:24:26.819 --> 00:24:35.640
And and also, when we did the when we did the perch, we retrospective, and like I named my top 3 stories, they were all Robert Holmes stories.

363
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:41.640
And I just think, you know, he's a spectacular, he was a great TV writer.

364
00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:51.420
But giving him the reins, that's the other thing, the discovery that that he's kind of cynical, sadistic, actually.

365
00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:53.579
Yeah, it's a sadistic humour that he has.

366
00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:55.200
And sort of misanthropic and stuff.

367
00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:55.980
Yeah.

368
00:24:55.980 --> 00:24:57.720
And yet we blame so hard for that.

369
00:24:57.779 --> 00:25:00.359
Yeah, but he's not talented though.

370
00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:05.519
I was going to say not witty.

371
00:25:05.579 --> 00:25:09.720
Okay, let's just let's just go for the...

372
00:25:09.779 --> 00:25:11.279
This is going to be what to keep.

373
00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:13.680
Richard Brendan, your greatest surprise?

374
00:25:13.740 --> 00:25:15.359
Even honing in further than that.

375
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:17.940
In particular, season 13 just isn't that good.

376
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.799
It's what it's what you say, Richard, about the colour Diana Riggs season.

377
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:27.839
It's like if you watch more than one together, it's actually just the same bloody story every week.

378
00:25:27.900 --> 00:25:31.980
Individually, chocolate's in a box, but altogether you feel sick.

379
00:25:32.099 --> 00:25:36.539
Yeah, this, you know, this ancient evil, this ancient unknowable dawn of time.

380
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:41.700
Usually, you know, you can't communicate with them because their brain works on a different level.

381
00:25:41.759 --> 00:25:44.940
Season 12 is great. season 14 is great.

382
00:25:45.059 --> 00:25:50.220
But season 13, which is why everyone holds up as, you know, this is this is the amazing Doctor Who.

383
00:25:50.279 --> 00:25:56.819
You know, I think it's the opposite problem of season 18 where, you know, season 18, there's nothing really in it for the younger child.

384
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:06.180
Season 13, when a lot of younger children were watching and that forms the impression on their mind of what Doctor Who is.

385
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:25.440
But looking at it with an adult mind, when you're not just looking at the visuals and the and the repartee and the monsters, when you're looking at the plot and kind of going, oh, well, okay, Morbius slash Eldrad slash crinoid has been buried for 1000000s of years and la-da-da-da.

386
00:26:25.500 --> 00:26:31.680
Yeah, it's just kind of, oh, it's like actually this goal, there never was a golden age, Mike.

387
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:36.299
That's really true.

388
00:26:36.359 --> 00:26:38.880
Which, oh, how good Tom is.

389
00:26:38.940 --> 00:26:44.519
Because again, I had that received opinion that he waned and he phoned it in and blah, blah.

390
00:26:44.579 --> 00:26:45.599
He just blustered his way through.

391
00:26:45.660 --> 00:26:46.380
No, he doesn't.

392
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:50.519
There's something surprising and he'll go, wow, wow, boom, boom, foghorn.

393
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:52.559
Shottle something.

394
00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:54.720
Look, horror fang rock.

395
00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:56.819
Again, it's something that I thought, yeah, it's great.

396
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:57.539
I have a kind of mood.

397
00:26:57.599 --> 00:26:58.920
There's subtleties and there's layers.

398
00:26:58.980 --> 00:27:00.660
The simpler the story for Tom.

399
00:27:00.720 --> 00:27:02.640
The more he puts into it.

400
00:27:02.700 --> 00:27:21.000
And we know what a monster he was to other people in the cast as some people could handle him well, the juxtaposition between how he treated Louise, which was actually Louise's reaction, and how he treated Mary, which was actually Mary's reaction, comes down to that alternate, that a bully is the most vulnerable person in the room.

401
00:27:21.059 --> 00:27:22.380
Tom was a bully.

402
00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:29.880
But only because he was looking to have his handheld and have guidance and have a maternal figure look after him.

403
00:27:29.940 --> 00:27:35.160
If you've read his biog, have you ever thought of autobiography, who is Tom Baker?

404
00:27:35.220 --> 00:27:35.759
I don't believe.

405
00:27:35.880 --> 00:27:36.960
It was ghosted a bit.

406
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:44.339
But what I get from that is that, you know, he, like many men, he wanted a woman to look after him.

407
00:27:44.400 --> 00:27:52.380
And when they weren't as strong or they didn't meet him, he was savage when Lala comes along and it is a force of nature and equal and opposite.

408
00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:55.380
But of course they clash, but he ends up marrying her.

409
00:27:55.440 --> 00:28:06.059
Well, Louise Jameson does say that her relationship with Tom was pretty much fine when she said to him, you are not being fair, you are not treating me fairly, I am not the cause of your problems.

410
00:28:06.299 --> 00:28:09.119
And therefore you shouldn't take it out on me.

411
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:14.039
And, you know, after that, she's like, you know, the relationship wasn't perfect, but we worked well together and now we're great friends.

412
00:28:14.099 --> 00:28:19.799
So yeah, I think there might be something in that, that he's he's looking for someone to rise to him.

413
00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:29.519
I guess on that note, someone to rise to him, is there any character that you think could have come aboard the TARDIS during his time that could have risen?

414
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:31.200
Obviously.

415
00:28:32.880 --> 00:28:36.240
I'm going from...

416
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.940
Don't hold your breath because not carrying out noise coming up.

417
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:41.880
I'm thinking about it, right?

418
00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:42.839
Oh, who is?

419
00:28:43.619 --> 00:28:46.619
This table is rising like a séance.

420
00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:49.500
He's never far from my class.

421
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.319
It's deference to the question.

422
00:28:52.380 --> 00:28:58.680
Is there a character that could have come aboard the TARDIS that you would have liked to have seen perhaps from a story that could have been a longer term?

423
00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:00.180
Pilot Toose.

424
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:03.779
Isn't that amazing to say that because mine just to throw in his DA before?

425
00:29:03.839 --> 00:29:06.119
Seriously, I really wanted that in there.

426
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:14.640
And can you imagine dressing him up in a hat and stuff and like, you'll pass and trying to walk through Paris and everyone just thinks it was a really late party and he hasn't changed yet?

427
00:29:14.700 --> 00:29:16.200
Now, wouldn't that have been interesting?

428
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:18.420
It was Bilal for me with the Pertwear era.

429
00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:18.779
Yeah.

430
00:29:18.779 --> 00:29:22.019
And it's, I work with someone called Balal. doesn't listen to this. okay.

431
00:29:22.079 --> 00:29:23.339
Yeah, I really do this.

432
00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:27.359
And yeah, and this one and it's, yeah, that story.

433
00:29:27.420 --> 00:29:29.039
It's the signal stories.

434
00:29:29.099 --> 00:29:34.799
And the reason the signal story is these extraordinary subtle characters, the panellists say, and I mean, come on.

435
00:29:34.859 --> 00:29:35.940
But yeah, of course.

436
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:38.759
Chris Boucher writes great characters.

437
00:29:38.819 --> 00:29:42.119
Look at Fendal with Mark Tyler and Matt.

438
00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:42.660
Oh, thank you.

439
00:29:42.660 --> 00:29:43.799
The Ransom.

440
00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:44.759
I know what...

441
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:45.059
I know.

442
00:29:45.059 --> 00:29:47.339
Nathan Zainz is going to be, it's all the mothers.

443
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:50.700
Adam Colby.

444
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:53.039
Can we just...

445
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.059
Oh, okay.

446
00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:59.519
Can we just can we just have an Adam Colby series where he inexquivocably gets his shirt ripped off?

447
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:05.099
It's called the Colby's. for a few seasons.

448
00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:06.839
You got to keep watching.

449
00:30:06.900 --> 00:30:08.339
He doesn't turn up till towards the end.

450
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:09.660
So just keep watching them with stuff.

451
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:10.259
Sorry, Nathan.

452
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:13.440
I'm kind of on Amelia Rumford.

453
00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:15.599
Yeah, I love Tom and Amelia.

454
00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:18.359
Yeah, when they when they go to the DeFreeze mansion.

455
00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:22.319
I think she's and you would see something different from Tom.

456
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:23.759
Can I change mine now?

457
00:30:24.059 --> 00:30:26.160
I mean, do you do come?

458
00:30:26.220 --> 00:30:27.539
I can have more.

459
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:29.099
Yeah, I agree.

460
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.700
No, and Tom wanted an older woman companion. since we're using the O word.

461
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:34.319
So frequently in this podcast.

462
00:30:34.380 --> 00:30:40.019
So she gets to be the kind of dotty Zainie when he gets here.

463
00:30:40.079 --> 00:30:43.859
And that would, and that's the whole thing with his very submissive, dominant thing.

464
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:46.079
It all gets a bit spooky SM with Tom.

465
00:30:46.140 --> 00:30:47.880
I think that, you know, clever people do that.

466
00:30:47.940 --> 00:30:53.759
But yes, if he'd actually had him at, well, a woman who was old enough to be his mother in the park.

467
00:30:53.880 --> 00:30:55.440
We would have seen a very different Tom.

468
00:30:55.500 --> 00:31:03.480
We've never had that in the show, apart from some Vivon Smythe and being finished. is my all-time favourite companion in the audios.

469
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:04.920
Vail Maggie.

470
00:31:04.980 --> 00:31:06.779
Yeah, we lost her last year.

471
00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.740
If I might ask a question, Todd, which won't be on your list, I promise.

472
00:31:10.799 --> 00:31:14.220
A few weeks ago, of course, we got our 1st look at Bill.

473
00:31:15.299 --> 00:31:17.339
Yes, the new companion.

474
00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:18.240
The new companion.

475
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:21.720
It's a resurrected Billy in a...

476
00:31:21.900 --> 00:31:31.140
Now, the thing with Bill is like, I'm not going to talk about the completely outrageous objections that people are raising.

477
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:39.900
But one objection that someone raised was, oh, yeah, it's another, girl in her 20s, you know.

478
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:41.519
That's massive objection.

479
00:31:41.579 --> 00:32:00.660
Now, the thing is, any other time I would have that ejection, but I do believe that having a companion actress closer to Peter Capaldi's age. would be a mistake just because I like the tension of Peter Capaldi being an older doctor and having a younger companion.

480
00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:02.039
I would...

481
00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:03.660
Yeah, I would have loved.

482
00:32:03.720 --> 00:32:04.619
I would have loved to see.

483
00:32:04.740 --> 00:32:12.960
I would have loved to see Matt Smith, you know, 30 or whatever he was at the time. having a female companion in her 50s or 60s.

484
00:32:13.019 --> 00:32:16.319
You know, I would have loved to see about women would agree with you on that.

485
00:32:16.380 --> 00:32:18.960
But don't we don't we have...

486
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:20.579
What's her name?

487
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:22.680
Kate Stewart?

488
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:23.940
Olivia Coleman.

489
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:27.599
No, no, no, no, the one that keeps the bit of a song.

490
00:32:27.660 --> 00:32:28.319
Isn't she old?

491
00:32:28.380 --> 00:32:32.819
Well, in a way, it's over 30 years old for Brendan.

492
00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:39.539
Look, the thing is, I think Alex Kingston is only in her 40s and I object...

493
00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:41.819
Oh, okay. that's how I see her.

494
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:59.759
But that I try not to buy into the Hollywood thing of labelling women over 35 as older because there's been a run of movies recently where you've had young male protagonists in their early 20s and their mothers being played by women in their 30s.

495
00:32:59.819 --> 00:33:00.480
Correct.

496
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:01.500
You know?

497
00:33:01.559 --> 00:33:06.059
And I mean, I know I'm saying an older actress here being in their 50s or 60s.

498
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:10.740
But, you know, when you think about Helen Mirren is 70, Joanna Lumley is 69 now.

499
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.099
I think she's 70 today. 17th day.

500
00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:15.839
Happy birthday, Joanna.

501
00:33:15.900 --> 00:33:17.700
She's Canon.

502
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:27.000
Yeah, I think I think if you're going to have an older companion, certainly we just mentioned Evelyn Smythe, wonderfully played by the late Maggie Stables.

503
00:33:27.059 --> 00:33:36.599
The doctor, of course, in that, obviously, Colin was closer to her age in real life, but the doctor in that is not outwardly closer to her age.

504
00:33:36.660 --> 00:33:57.299
Now, the doctor, you've already got this tension of he's much older than he looks, but at the same time he acts quite often in a very childish way, you know, as Tom says, at no point, there's no point in being grown up, if you can't be childish, sometimes, to then have an older companion figure. being the voice of reason, but also with a bit of right sense of humour.

505
00:33:57.359 --> 00:33:59.099
I think I think would be great.

506
00:33:59.160 --> 00:34:03.420
And I do hope we see it perhaps with the next doctor if they go younger than Capaldi.

507
00:34:03.660 --> 00:34:06.960
But yeah, I liked I liked Bill scene.

508
00:34:07.019 --> 00:34:10.860
Todd, you were saying earlier that you didn't think much of the script, but she performed it very well.

509
00:34:10.920 --> 00:34:11.940
I think I'd have to agree there.

510
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.280
You know, it was trademark Moffatt witticisms.

511
00:34:14.340 --> 00:34:16.139
But she was reading them in a fresh way.

512
00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:17.880
She's very talented.

513
00:34:17.940 --> 00:34:21.780
Like she can speak several languages and sing and do all sorts of things.

514
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:25.380
So hopefully they'll bring something into the program with that sort of thing.

515
00:34:25.440 --> 00:34:26.579
Pearl Mackey.

516
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:27.840
Her name was just escaping me.

517
00:34:28.019 --> 00:34:30.599
Pearl Mackey is the name of the actress.

518
00:34:30.659 --> 00:34:31.199
Excellent.

519
00:34:31.260 --> 00:34:35.039
All right, well, we've talked about like a character who you think could have travelled with a doctor.

520
00:34:35.099 --> 00:34:41.340
Is there any character who you would have liked to see survive a story that was killed off?

521
00:34:42.599 --> 00:34:45.599
It's an interesting and hard one, isn't it?

522
00:34:45.659 --> 00:34:46.860
Well, I do have one.

523
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:48.300
Adelaide.

524
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.099
Yeah, really?

525
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:56.699
Simply because we get that rather wonderful scene where, you know, she's she's whimpering and moaning about.

526
00:34:56.760 --> 00:35:06.420
I should have listened to Mrs. Nevercott, and we get this great moment from Leila, where Leila says, you know, there are better ways than science, and Adelaide kind of starts to consider that.

527
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:08.219
And so we have some character.

528
00:35:08.280 --> 00:35:16.800
We have some character growth for Adelaide, and we have some character growth for Leila, and Leila is helping someone, and I really think it's undermined by the fact that Adelaide dies.

529
00:35:16.860 --> 00:35:22.920
I would have liked to seen both Adelaide and Vince survive that story, but I think the impact of the story is the fact that everybody does that.

530
00:35:22.980 --> 00:35:23.940
Yeah, yeah.

531
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:32.039
Scorbi is another one who I would have liked to have seen possibly survive, just the fact that the villains don't always survive, but sometimes it's nice.

532
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:37.619
Like, as horrible as he was, he was, I don't know, there was some humanity to me.

533
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:39.119
He was really period.

534
00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:41.820
He was straight out of the Sweeney and straight up.

535
00:35:41.880 --> 00:35:46.800
Yeah, and he would have been great to have him, like they did with Lytton, I think, more successfully crop up in a story later on.

536
00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:47.760
It would have been fun.

537
00:35:47.820 --> 00:35:50.219
Those scenes where he teams up with Sarah are really fun.

538
00:35:50.340 --> 00:35:51.119
They are fun.

539
00:35:51.179 --> 00:35:52.440
Yeah, great chemistry.

540
00:35:52.500 --> 00:35:54.300
Monsters.

541
00:35:54.360 --> 00:36:00.360
Is there any monster that you'd like back that you think worked pretty well and we have never seen back in the series?

542
00:36:00.420 --> 00:36:03.900
Oh, well, I should probably jump in because I didn't get to throw my last one.

543
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:05.699
Oh, I have one as well.

544
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:07.800
And it actually goes for this one as well.

545
00:36:07.860 --> 00:36:13.139
I've liked Broton to survive, and I've also liked Nider.

546
00:36:13.139 --> 00:36:16.679
And they should have had their own spinoff. don't care.

547
00:36:16.739 --> 00:36:18.239
And yes, it would have been lovely.

548
00:36:18.300 --> 00:36:20.579
I think they should come back every time.

549
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:22.139
I just think it's so obvious.

550
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:23.519
I don't know why they didn't ever see it.

551
00:36:23.579 --> 00:36:24.420
You still with us?

552
00:36:24.480 --> 00:36:26.340
Peter Miles would definitely be agreeing with that.

553
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:27.480
In Proton?

554
00:36:27.539 --> 00:36:27.840
Yeah.

555
00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:30.420
No, I just thought he was a great character as we covered.

556
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.079
He's so camp.

557
00:36:31.139 --> 00:36:32.880
Yeah, I was really disappointed.

558
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:36.059
He never came back until very recently and it wasn't him.

559
00:36:36.119 --> 00:36:38.579
Oh, anyway, I'm just being silly and flip.

560
00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:40.800
But, yeah, it's sort of a shame.

561
00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:44.219
Scorbio principle, when they're so terrifically great.

562
00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:45.719
It's really a shame to let them go.

563
00:36:45.780 --> 00:36:50.760
And it actually shows you can get too much of a good thing because Davros probably should never have come back.

564
00:36:51.179 --> 00:36:53.699
I wanted to keep Lexa alive.

565
00:36:53.820 --> 00:36:55.440
No, yeah.

566
00:36:55.500 --> 00:37:00.659
As we said, because the death was so poorly done, and just because she was so charming as a character.

567
00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:02.940
I think that that was a great shame.

568
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:07.559
Happy to name Jackie Hill every single episode of the podcast.

569
00:37:07.619 --> 00:37:11.820
Yeah, and she's my answer, the one who should have gone on board the Tartars as well.

570
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:17.219
Could have had...

571
00:37:17.219 --> 00:37:18.360
Wouldn't that have been awesome?

572
00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:21.420
Oh, I could just see Romana and she just doing each other's.

573
00:37:21.780 --> 00:37:24.179
Each other's extensions.

574
00:37:25.739 --> 00:37:27.780
Oh, God.

575
00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:31.440
Imagine what Jackie Hill would have done to Matthew Waterhouse.

576
00:37:31.500 --> 00:37:33.780
She probably would have been very nice to him.

577
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:34.679
Actually that's true.

578
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.559
She would have been patient and interesting.

579
00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:40.380
Oh, damn, I know. missed opportunities, you know?

580
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:44.219
He could have used that too. in that 1st year. does sound like...

581
00:37:44.280 --> 00:37:50.880
You know, just imagine if Lala Ward walked off the set when she met Matthew Waterhouse and they could just could have had Jackie Hill wander in and say, decided to change again.

582
00:37:50.940 --> 00:37:52.079
She looked fabulous.

583
00:37:52.139 --> 00:37:53.699
Hi, doctor, I'm Romana.

584
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.440
Wow.

585
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:56.760
Oh, my.

586
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:01.019
Right.

587
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.860
In terms of one off monsters, I'd like to see you come back.

588
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:06.480
The ones that spring immediately to mind.

589
00:38:06.539 --> 00:38:10.559
I don't actually want them back, but they have come back anyway, and the audience is the crawls.

590
00:38:10.619 --> 00:38:11.219
I mean, who cares?

591
00:38:11.280 --> 00:38:15.840
Oh, they'd come back in the audios, but I'd love to see them on telly.

592
00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:17.219
You kind of do.

593
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.719
What, the craft?

594
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:19.920
No, the robots.

595
00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:24.179
Ah, the robots, the autonomous robots of dance.

596
00:38:24.239 --> 00:38:25.920
The box and the super box and the dummy.

597
00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:27.179
Why do we never get to see them again?

598
00:38:27.239 --> 00:38:28.260
They're so unfair.

599
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:28.860
Caldor City.

600
00:38:28.920 --> 00:38:30.000
Caldor City are great.

601
00:38:30.059 --> 00:38:34.920
There's a wonderful big finish audio called Robophobia, which features some friend of the podcast, Toby Hado.

602
00:38:34.980 --> 00:38:38.219
But yeah, I'd really like to see...

603
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:39.780
I'd really like to see them again.

604
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:42.599
Tythonians. obviously.

605
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:45.599
I'm just trying to think.

606
00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:47.699
It's like, uh, Trunk and Ner Trunk and's dead.

607
00:38:47.820 --> 00:38:49.980
The knife on, obviously.

608
00:38:50.340 --> 00:38:51.000
No, that's the thing.

609
00:38:51.059 --> 00:38:52.079
Is Tracandeed.

610
00:38:52.139 --> 00:38:58.079
Can we just, that, that, it's the whole thing of, we saw the earth die in the arc, and yet we still go to the earth, don't we?

611
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.099
Yes, that's right.

612
00:38:59.159 --> 00:38:59.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

613
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:00.599
We could have trunk.

614
00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:02.039
Oh, you're giving me a glimmer of hope.

615
00:39:02.099 --> 00:39:04.380
It's a time travelling show.

616
00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:08.400
You know, I'm just thinking, big finish, have brought back a lot of elements from Tom's era.

617
00:39:08.460 --> 00:39:12.599
And when they didn't have Tom, you know, they brought back Crumbs and they brought back the Nibel.

618
00:39:12.659 --> 00:39:17.820
Anyway, guys, in fact, one of the features of this era is that it doesn't do returning monsters all that much.

619
00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:20.519
So you've got like the Santarans come back.

620
00:39:20.820 --> 00:39:24.659
The Dialects come back, the cybermen come back.

621
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:29.460
I mean, they don't come back twice in Tom's year, but they're old monsters that return.

622
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:34.980
And part of that was the setup of Lance trying to kind of ease the transition a bit.

623
00:39:35.039 --> 00:39:37.320
But, you know, the show doesn't do that.

624
00:39:37.380 --> 00:39:38.760
It does fresh new monsters.

625
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:46.380
It doesn't do what the show is going to start doing, which is just have a stable of monsters that it just hauls out for a quick run round.

626
00:39:46.380 --> 00:39:47.159
They do start to do.

627
00:39:47.579 --> 00:39:47.760
Yes.

628
00:39:47.820 --> 00:39:49.920
Far too much, yes.

629
00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:51.480
Richard, have you got any?

630
00:39:51.539 --> 00:39:53.639
Apart from broken reminder?

631
00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:54.840
Well, is there anyone else?

632
00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:55.800
Do you call them monsters?

633
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:58.860
Well, that's how you treat one, isn't it?

634
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:02.820
I've heard this about Peter Miles.

635
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:09.840
I actually do think the more amorphous and alien the character, maybe it's less realised and we do joke about erato, blah, blah, blah.

636
00:40:09.900 --> 00:40:12.360
But the concept, I really do like high concept characters.

637
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:13.559
We don't see enough of them.

638
00:40:13.860 --> 00:40:17.519
Okay, maybe not erato, but there are other ones.

639
00:40:17.579 --> 00:40:20.639
I just really wish we'd had more of Scaroff.

640
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:26.699
I just, I just want Scarab, really, in the disco suit.

641
00:40:26.760 --> 00:40:28.980
You can't have enough Julian Glover, can you?

642
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.920
It's a great looking character, isn't it?

643
00:40:31.980 --> 00:40:33.539
Everything's great.

644
00:40:33.539 --> 00:40:35.159
Is he your favourite guest artist?

645
00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:37.380
Oh, that's so hard to say.

646
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:47.340
I actually think, no, I think for so many reasons, and the fact that I'm listened around the hall, every bloody week of my life, Harrison Chase is probably my alternate favourite villain slash guest.

647
00:40:48.719 --> 00:40:51.840
Nathan, he's your all-time favourite.

648
00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:54.360
I think I do have to go for Julian Glover.

649
00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:57.000
He's so entertaining.

650
00:40:57.059 --> 00:41:01.500
He's just terrific and him and Tom are really terrific together.

651
00:41:01.559 --> 00:41:09.300
And, you know, I just think that story, which is spoiler alert, for perhaps another question. my favourite Tom's story.

652
00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:11.099
Much of that is down to him.

653
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:13.559
Brendan?

654
00:41:13.619 --> 00:41:15.119
Beatrix Lehman.

655
00:41:15.179 --> 00:41:16.380
Yeah, okay.

656
00:41:16.380 --> 00:41:16.860
Yeah.

657
00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:17.880
Amelia Rumford.

658
00:41:17.940 --> 00:41:22.139
And it's what I think you said earlier, Richard, or was it your name?

659
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:23.280
She bounces so well off Tom.

660
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:30.360
But not only does she bounce so well off Tom, she bounces really well off Mary and she bounces off canine.

661
00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:37.739
She pretty much takes over the whole show. to see that, actually. having visions of trampoline.

662
00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:41.519
Richard's tracing her trajectory through the air.

663
00:41:41.579 --> 00:41:44.820
Then maybe she really does need to put a bra on for that last scene.

664
00:41:45.659 --> 00:41:47.219
Oh, dear.

665
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:48.960
I was hoping not to see that again.

666
00:41:49.019 --> 00:41:56.159
When you have these great guest stars, usually they'll they'll sort of in the script, they'll latch on to one character.

667
00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:57.480
So it's sort of in season 15.

668
00:41:57.780 --> 00:42:06.599
Most of the guest cast, they're actually reacting and acting with Louise Jameson and Tom's off staring into the middle distance because he doesn't want to look at anyone in the face.

669
00:42:07.260 --> 00:42:12.719
Beatrix Lehman breezes into the show and it's like, no, you're all going to pay attention to me.

670
00:42:13.260 --> 00:42:16.800
And quite right too, because she's fabulous.

671
00:42:16.860 --> 00:42:19.440
So yeah, it has to be Patrick Sleeman for me.

672
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.179
With Susan Engle as a close second.

673
00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.940
As the best rom-com Lesbo episode.

674
00:42:23.940 --> 00:42:28.619
I had in Doctor Who, if in fact, the only one until Paradise Towers, yeah.

675
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:29.699
Sausage sandwiches.

676
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.579
Yes, those sausage sandwiches. brilliant.

677
00:42:32.699 --> 00:42:33.179
I don't know.

678
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:37.920
I mean, you've all mentioned characters that I really like in terms of guest performances.

679
00:42:37.980 --> 00:42:40.619
Harrison Chase does just jump out of you.

680
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:42.119
I love Pilot 2s.

681
00:42:42.179 --> 00:42:46.079
I just I've always loved Pamela Salem, and of course, Beatrix.

682
00:42:46.139 --> 00:42:50.280
In terms of monsters, I'd love to have a rematch with the crinoids.

683
00:42:50.340 --> 00:42:51.960
Be beautiful.

684
00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.420
And I'd also like to see the Magara come back.

685
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:59.760
And I'd also like the ogre at the same time, but, you know, just so you can see.

686
00:43:00.539 --> 00:43:03.119
But if they bring them out, they have to do different things.

687
00:43:03.179 --> 00:43:07.079
I want to see the hungry, actually being able to livitate, like, to 2nd story buildings and stuff.

688
00:43:07.139 --> 00:43:07.619
Yeah, yeah.

689
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:14.880
And criminalids been able to shoot little seeds at people that if they open their mousecake, they suddenly swallow it and then that's the way they get infected.

690
00:43:14.940 --> 00:43:26.940
You just give me an acid flashback to a comic from 1974, TV comic just quickly, did a take on that with Sarah and Tom, and it was...

691
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:28.199
Does anyone remember this?

692
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:29.639
They were the daffodils.

693
00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:30.599
They were yellow daffodils.

694
00:43:30.659 --> 00:43:33.719
It was definitely a take on the autons, but they spat seeds into people's faces.

695
00:43:33.780 --> 00:43:35.099
Deck flower.

696
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:35.400
Yes.

697
00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:37.920
I really, I had the original editions.

698
00:43:37.980 --> 00:43:39.300
I haven't seen it since the day.

699
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.980
It was called Death Flower. and there was lots of Tom and Bessie with Sarah.

700
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:45.780
It was all, but the drawings were robot.

701
00:43:45.780 --> 00:43:49.739
The drawings were based on the photos from robots.

702
00:43:49.800 --> 00:43:51.179
So that might have been it.

703
00:43:51.239 --> 00:43:55.320
There's one in a battlefield with a Spitfire and the TARDIS is on its side.

704
00:43:55.440 --> 00:43:59.639
It's the 1st time you ever see Sarah trying to climb around and tripping over the round or something.

705
00:43:59.699 --> 00:44:00.000
That it.

706
00:44:00.059 --> 00:44:01.019
Oh my god, that's it.

707
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:05.340
And I had this in 7576.

708
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.800
Oh, yeah, yeah, it's based on robots.

709
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:09.179
So there he does say Sarah.

710
00:44:09.239 --> 00:44:11.519
Oh, Veg Pro. You know what?

711
00:44:11.579 --> 00:44:13.019
It actually wasn't that bad.

712
00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:18.300
Those drawings are not too far for the era when you saw how bad they... absolutely is.

713
00:44:18.420 --> 00:44:20.159
That might be John Canning.

714
00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:21.179
Yeah, that's drunk.

715
00:44:21.239 --> 00:44:21.480
Yeah.

716
00:44:21.539 --> 00:44:24.780
Yeah, but it's like him from the front of a Doctor Who monster boy.

717
00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:26.519
That's what John Canning did all the time.

718
00:44:26.579 --> 00:44:28.559
Fingering himself with his characters.

719
00:44:28.679 --> 00:44:29.579
That's it.

720
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:32.280
There, there, there. which was an ambassador of death, but at the time we didn't know.

721
00:44:32.340 --> 00:44:34.980
Look, Brendan, this is what it was really good.

722
00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.960
So it is out there and you can see it.

723
00:44:37.079 --> 00:44:40.380
Oh my god, she's wearing Liz's hat from the ambassadors of death.

724
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.079
Oh, no, it's supposed to be from Robots.

725
00:44:43.139 --> 00:44:43.980
I know, I know, right?

726
00:44:44.039 --> 00:44:45.360
You're just being naughty.

727
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:46.139
Yes, I am.

728
00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:47.519
I'll start with Brendan.

729
00:44:47.579 --> 00:44:49.019
Your top three.

730
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:51.840
Tom Baker stories.

731
00:44:51.900 --> 00:44:52.260
Is that right?

732
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:52.800
Yep.

733
00:44:52.860 --> 00:44:55.440
Okay, well, I'll start from three.

734
00:44:55.500 --> 00:44:56.760
Warriors Gate.

735
00:44:57.780 --> 00:45:08.820
I just think that the choice. the visuals are so beautiful and the script and the concept and Rawvik is terrifying.

736
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:12.239
But then you've got Aldo and Royce who are hilarious.

737
00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:21.000
Yeah, it's it's a science fiction Samuel Beckett play with lions and it's just wonderful.

738
00:45:21.420 --> 00:45:24.480
Number 2 is a robot to Death.

739
00:45:24.599 --> 00:45:30.780
As Stephen Moffatt says, is a whodunit, its status is seriously compromised by the title, but...

740
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:36.840
A murder mystery thrives on the quality of its fodder, basically.

741
00:45:36.900 --> 00:45:46.679
You have to care reasonably about the incidental characters who get murdered. horribly, horribly murdered.

742
00:45:46.739 --> 00:45:48.840
And the thing is, you do in this one.

743
00:45:48.900 --> 00:45:52.739
I mean, even the early characters like Chub, that's bodist.

744
00:45:54.000 --> 00:46:05.219
Even the characters who were killed early on, like Charm and Cast, they get character moments, you know, and we get this impression that these people have known each other for a while.

745
00:46:05.340 --> 00:46:12.539
Which I don't think we get as much in, say, the next nearest comparison, which is horror of Thang Rock.

746
00:46:13.079 --> 00:46:16.679
Yeah, and both were written in a relatively short time frame.

747
00:46:16.739 --> 00:46:17.760
I love horror film.

748
00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:22.320
Chris Boucher was asked to write robots of death very quickly after face of evil.

749
00:46:22.380 --> 00:46:25.920
That's not, is there lots of Bobsy Holmes innocent, though?

750
00:46:25.980 --> 00:46:26.940
It is quite boring.

751
00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:27.599
Is he home?

752
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:28.559
I feel I'm feeling it.

753
00:46:28.619 --> 00:46:32.820
But at the same time, Chris Boucher has a real pawn chant for creating interesting characters.

754
00:46:32.880 --> 00:46:37.320
Except when he writes BBC book.

755
00:46:37.380 --> 00:46:37.980
That's true.

756
00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:39.599
He's much better with script.s.

757
00:46:39.659 --> 00:46:43.500
If you're ever stuck in a jungle and you haven't got any lavatory paper.

758
00:46:43.559 --> 00:46:46.440
Chris Boucher's ovaries then. with you.

759
00:46:46.500 --> 00:46:47.340
God, they were awful.

760
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:48.239
Was it last man standing?

761
00:46:48.300 --> 00:46:49.320
Last man standing.

762
00:46:49.320 --> 00:46:50.400
God, it's horrible.

763
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:52.739
On the other hand, it is, but I absorb it.

764
00:46:54.960 --> 00:46:57.659
Career wise, yes, yes.

765
00:46:57.719 --> 00:47:05.460
And my number one, for reasons I have stated before and will state constantly, again, it's the Androids of Tara.

766
00:47:06.179 --> 00:47:08.400
It's it's lovely.

767
00:47:08.460 --> 00:47:09.420
It's summery.

768
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:11.039
It's light, it's heroic.

769
00:47:11.099 --> 00:47:12.179
It's got a great villain.

770
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:16.500
It's a beautiful moment of Jackie Hill guest starring as time would best.

771
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:18.239
I never knew that.

772
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:19.139
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

773
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:20.099
They kept it.

774
00:47:20.159 --> 00:47:21.659
She wanted to come back, but, you know.

775
00:47:21.659 --> 00:47:23.579
That's Deborah Watley.

776
00:47:23.639 --> 00:47:35.219
It's got it's got that beautiful, that beautiful moment and it's just all in the performance and it's the 1st time Romana looks at the doctor in awe and respect when he's...

777
00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:36.000
It doesn't last.

778
00:47:36.059 --> 00:47:36.900
You're right.

779
00:47:36.960 --> 00:47:37.440
No, she does.

780
00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:47.219
Yeah, but when he is having the sword fight with Grendel and you get that beautiful shot of Romana where she suddenly goes, he actually knows what he's doing.

781
00:47:47.940 --> 00:48:00.840
And it's a great story from Mary Tam, not just because she gets to play multiple roles, but we've had this very aloof character who's not concerned with human life and all of a sudden she has to tend to someone who's injured.

782
00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:02.280
Was she ever not concerned?

783
00:48:02.340 --> 00:48:06.239
Well, not a sorry, not not cold in cats.

784
00:48:06.300 --> 00:48:19.619
Not cold not cold and callous about human life, but, you know, just sort of walks through the battlefield and doesn't really comment on the thing unless unless it's, you know, something planet wide such as Xanac.

785
00:48:19.679 --> 00:48:27.000
But then you get the androids of Tara, where, you know, she's got this one individual who's ill and she's caring for him.

786
00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:30.119
And when she has an opportunity to escape, she says, I'm not leaving without you.

787
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:38.460
And that then leads to, in the Armageddon factor, we get that great moment where she shouts at the doctor that they're horrible and they're murderers and how can they do this?

788
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:40.559
you know, which it's a pretty terrible story.

789
00:48:40.619 --> 00:48:41.579
But that scene.

790
00:48:41.880 --> 00:48:48.659
Where, yeah, and that, for me, starts in the Androids of Tara. and it's just a beautiful Disney movie done.

791
00:48:48.840 --> 00:48:51.059
Is there any story you would avoid?

792
00:48:51.179 --> 00:48:52.260
Oh.

793
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:56.039
Between the power of Croll and Underworld.

794
00:48:56.099 --> 00:48:57.239
Okay.

795
00:48:57.300 --> 00:49:00.360
I think I think and I think it has to be the power of Kroll.

796
00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:02.519
I find underworld more entertaining.

797
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:05.280
Yeah, my topic is...

798
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:06.179
Go for Power of Kroll.

799
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.639
Your topic is...

800
00:49:08.699 --> 00:49:12.059
It isn't, but that's crazy talk.

801
00:49:12.119 --> 00:49:15.480
Well, no, no, I think City of Death is definitely the top.

802
00:49:15.539 --> 00:49:16.739
I think it's Whitty.

803
00:49:16.860 --> 00:49:18.000
It's really fun.

804
00:49:18.059 --> 00:49:22.500
It's, you know, Tom and Lala are wonderful in it.

805
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:26.159
It has a great villain, lots of wonderful location stuff.

806
00:49:26.219 --> 00:49:28.380
It's a clever script.

807
00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:31.739
So I think that that's definitely my favourite.

808
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:33.659
But if I had to pick three.

809
00:49:33.719 --> 00:49:39.900
I think, you know, if you ask me next week, I'm sure that I would pick different ones.

810
00:49:39.900 --> 00:49:43.739
I really want to pick something from season 16 because it's so good.

811
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:50.280
I'm kind of a bit sold on Androids Atara, actually, which is great.

812
00:49:50.340 --> 00:49:52.679
But I mean, I like rebus operation as well.

813
00:49:52.739 --> 00:49:55.019
I don't enjoy it quite as much.

814
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:56.400
I think it's a really strong story.

815
00:49:56.460 --> 00:49:59.219
Great story, great atmosphere, great characters.

816
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.739
Yeah, the sets are good, the characters are good.

817
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:02.579
I think that's terrific.

818
00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:05.760
I've always had a massive soft spot for the sun makers.

819
00:50:05.820 --> 00:50:08.099
I'm picking Bob Holmes stories again.

820
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:09.840
They're well written.

821
00:50:09.900 --> 00:50:10.559
Yeah.

822
00:50:10.619 --> 00:50:11.880
The Sunmakers is great.

823
00:50:11.940 --> 00:50:13.440
Like, I think it's really enjoyable.

824
00:50:13.500 --> 00:50:22.619
It's the 1st it's the most explicit one where the doctor appears and tears down a repressive government maybe since the savages, you know?

825
00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:24.300
So I like that a lot.

826
00:50:24.719 --> 00:50:27.239
I'm like horror fan rock a lot.

827
00:50:27.960 --> 00:50:30.300
Robots of death is really good.

828
00:50:30.480 --> 00:50:33.119
Is there anything that you would avoid?

829
00:50:33.179 --> 00:50:36.599
Yeah, I think underworld has absolutely no redeeming features at all.

830
00:50:36.659 --> 00:50:38.400
It's not entertaining in any way.

831
00:50:38.460 --> 00:50:42.300
It's, you know, does worse things that the show had done before.

832
00:50:42.659 --> 00:50:48.599
And is there another story that's not in your top lot that you think is underrated by the table fans?

833
00:50:48.659 --> 00:50:52.500
No, I think Leisure Hime is underrated by me.

834
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:54.179
Why didn't I put that in my top?

835
00:50:57.480 --> 00:51:04.500
Yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing that I think is unjustly maligned, really Richard.

836
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:05.400
It's interesting.

837
00:51:05.460 --> 00:51:28.800
All those ones, my immediate go to as well, but then I think, what is it that I really take from it or what really compelled me at the time, and that is really what we still love about it, and it's the atmosphere, and then that is brought about by the, as you were just saying, all of you, the characters, the script, the direction, that are kindly producer, you know, in a good mood.

838
00:51:28.860 --> 00:51:32.460
But arc in space hasn't been name checked yet.

839
00:51:32.519 --> 00:51:36.599
And I really love it for, again, I got to the 2nd week in a row.

840
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:42.780
I got to stomp around the set of the new alien covenant movie last week because we've got friends who were working on it.

841
00:51:42.840 --> 00:51:47.219
And I was still getting moments of arc in space with what they're building there.

842
00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:49.260
Spoiler alert.

843
00:51:49.320 --> 00:51:52.920
I can't tell you anything, but you go and see it because you'll see.

844
00:51:52.980 --> 00:51:59.340
Yeah, actually, this is reminding me of, because that imbued and really Scott's admitted it, and really Scott was there directing.

845
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:04.739
He's still, it's that is still so strong in SF and popular culture now.

846
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:06.059
So thank you to that.

847
00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:11.940
And Genesis of the Daleks, although we sort of go, oh, you know, it's such a cliche, all the rest of it.

848
00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:13.559
It's really scary.

849
00:52:13.619 --> 00:52:18.119
And when it has moments of humour, it's really funny and it's got Nagap.

850
00:52:18.239 --> 00:52:19.559
So what's not to love?

851
00:52:19.619 --> 00:52:36.420
So yeah, those, those, I think, would be, apart from ones, you go, you say yes, because they're lovely, fluffy, marshmallowy, ice creamy things like Tara, but the ones that have really affected the wider media world of, not just of television, but films for those stories.

852
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:39.059
And is there anything that you would avoid?

853
00:52:39.119 --> 00:52:41.699
Other than the ones that you've already said.

854
00:52:42.179 --> 00:52:47.039
Gosh, again, as a as a teenager, season 18 was my favourite.

855
00:52:47.099 --> 00:52:50.219
We quickly moved on to just loving the stylishness of it.

856
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:51.059
State of decay.

857
00:52:51.119 --> 00:52:52.199
I absolutely adore it.

858
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:57.239
Um, But I can't think of anything in that that I really hated.

859
00:52:57.300 --> 00:52:59.460
That's probably the reason why it's strong.

860
00:52:59.579 --> 00:53:00.840
There's plenty in season 15.

861
00:53:01.139 --> 00:53:08.460
I actually find invasion of time terrific to watch, but for what they did to Louise, what they did to the character of Lita.

862
00:53:08.519 --> 00:53:09.300
I was so.

863
00:53:09.300 --> 00:53:11.639
It wasn't just disappointed.

864
00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:15.119
I actually felt betrayed by that ending and I still do.

865
00:53:15.179 --> 00:53:20.219
So I still think it's a good story, but that last that sequence is awful.

866
00:53:20.460 --> 00:53:26.039
Well, you've mentioned all these stories, you know, arc in space, robots of death.

867
00:53:26.099 --> 00:53:30.719
I find it so hard, like City of Death, terror the zygons, which I really, really love.

868
00:53:30.780 --> 00:53:33.539
Jones of Blood is one of my all-time favourites.

869
00:53:33.659 --> 00:53:38.039
The horror of frame rock is something that really surprised me this time round.

870
00:53:38.099 --> 00:53:40.139
Like I've not really liked it as much as I did.

871
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:42.780
Seeds of Doom, like they're all there.

872
00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:45.659
Like, I mean, trying to pick one of those stories.

873
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:47.880
I am finding almost impossible.

874
00:53:47.940 --> 00:53:49.860
I guess flip a coin today.

875
00:53:49.920 --> 00:53:51.059
I going to go with stones of blood.

876
00:53:52.139 --> 00:53:54.659
I would never I would disagree, yeah.

877
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:56.159
And I love it.

878
00:53:56.280 --> 00:54:04.860
In terms of other, yes, I will avoid anything written by Bob Baker and Dave Martin, but in particular underworld.

879
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:08.340
I think the rebus operation is a story that is undervalued by fandom.

880
00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:11.099
It's something every time I watch it, I go, uh-huh.

881
00:54:11.219 --> 00:54:16.920
And overrated by fandom is definitely the deadly assassin, and I'll say nothing more about that.

882
00:54:16.980 --> 00:54:20.099
Yeah, it's pretty deadly to slog through, isn't it?

883
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:21.119
Although again, great moments.

884
00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.159
Bob Holmes again.

885
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.619
Sometimes a liability, though.

886
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:31.139
So let's do some strong marrying a boy before we get on to writers and script editors.

887
00:54:31.199 --> 00:54:32.880
Richard, Strong, Marion V.

888
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:33.420
Oh, God.

889
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:36.719
Nider, Broton, Harrison Chase.

890
00:54:36.780 --> 00:54:41.280
Well, sorry, but I'm actually seeing something that's not fit for general viewing right now.

891
00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:44.940
I'm really How can you choose?

892
00:54:45.000 --> 00:54:48.599
That's just a pizza of deliciousness right there, isn't it?

893
00:54:48.659 --> 00:54:52.800
I just want to start fondling the marinara and launching the garrison.

894
00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:57.000
And yeah, I couldn't really do that any bluer, could I?

895
00:54:57.059 --> 00:54:58.980
Blue cheese topping.

896
00:54:59.039 --> 00:55:00.840
Okay, so who would you hang with?

897
00:55:00.900 --> 00:55:04.320
I think Broton would actually end up being the most fun simply because he's the most diverse.

898
00:55:04.380 --> 00:55:07.079
And if you feel bored with him one day, well, he can be someone else the next.

899
00:55:07.139 --> 00:55:10.260
So, yeah, you have to marry Broton.

900
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:13.800
I don't think I'd snog Nyder because there is that, there are those teeth.

901
00:55:13.860 --> 00:55:17.940
Um, those yellow tombs, tombsy teeth of doom.

902
00:55:18.059 --> 00:55:22.199
Um, so maybe I have to avoid neither, and the last one was...

903
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:24.300
Harrison Chase.

904
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:25.860
Well, obviously.

905
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:28.500
Oh, Harrison, say something. can you imagine the fun?

906
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:33.599
And you know, he'd launch into a Kenneth Williams, just like, nah, it would be fantastic.

907
00:55:33.840 --> 00:55:36.179
I think he'd be quite supple too.

908
00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:38.880
He does a lot of yoga and sitting cross-legged.

909
00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:42.300
I think he'd be, you know, be able to swing from a vine with alacrity.

910
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:43.679
Great.

911
00:55:43.739 --> 00:55:44.699
Brendan.

912
00:55:44.760 --> 00:55:47.219
Zastor, the keeper of Tracan or Engen?

913
00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:49.679
Oh, God.

914
00:55:49.739 --> 00:55:52.019
Well, you said you liked older me.

915
00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:53.579
Yeah, fair fine.

916
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:55.679
We're all taking a bit of a thing of the old world.

917
00:55:55.679 --> 00:55:59.039
We all actually consider ourselves to be quite young here at the table.

918
00:55:59.099 --> 00:55:59.519
So, yes.

919
00:55:59.639 --> 00:56:01.920
Well, to be fair, Rod is older than all of you.

920
00:56:03.119 --> 00:56:05.099
Glad he's not listening.

921
00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:07.500
Maybe.

922
00:56:07.500 --> 00:56:08.579
No, no, no.

923
00:56:08.699 --> 00:56:09.420
I'm fine with those.

924
00:56:09.480 --> 00:56:10.800
I'm fine with those three, really.

925
00:56:10.860 --> 00:56:11.639
Okay.

926
00:56:11.699 --> 00:56:13.199
Let's consider this.

927
00:56:13.260 --> 00:56:14.699
Definitely avoid Zaster.

928
00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:18.420
Oh, he's married for eternity.

929
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:23.400
He can see that the universe that binds you and that could be fun.

930
00:56:23.519 --> 00:56:26.940
Come on, we're trying to take you on a guided tour.

931
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:28.260
That's what I'm thinking.

932
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:30.900
If we're talking about the Dennis Carey keeper of drama.

933
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:31.679
Oh, yes.

934
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:34.320
Yeah, yeah, that could be the Luvik keeper.

935
00:56:34.380 --> 00:56:35.460
Okay, well, you know what?

936
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:36.900
You've only got 24 hours.

937
00:56:38.579 --> 00:56:40.320
That's the thing.

938
00:56:40.380 --> 00:56:42.539
If it's the Dennis carrykeeper, drunken.

939
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:46.440
It's definitely married because I have all this unlimited power and he's dead soon.

940
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:48.960
Oh, Cassio, get you.

941
00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:52.860
And and so, you know, Snogangen.

942
00:56:53.099 --> 00:56:57.119
Yeah, so, okay, Snogengen, marry the keeper.

943
00:56:57.179 --> 00:56:59.760
Even if it's the Lubik keeper, Lubik's kind of fun.

944
00:56:59.820 --> 00:57:01.500
He's cute.

945
00:57:01.559 --> 00:57:02.699
He looks a bit like your dad, actually.

946
00:57:03.119 --> 00:57:04.920
With that beard, yeah.

947
00:57:04.980 --> 00:57:07.860
It looks a bit like John Leeson as well.

948
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:10.079
And yeah, avoid...

949
00:57:10.199 --> 00:57:11.639
Avoid disaster.

950
00:57:11.699 --> 00:57:12.539
Okay, very good.

951
00:57:12.599 --> 00:57:15.300
I'm now going to do my own because you know, I just want to do that.

952
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:20.099
So, um, I've got the Caliak, Sarah Diplos, or Vivian Faye.

953
00:57:24.059 --> 00:57:30.179
So I'm going to avoid the Caliak because she likes to blood sacrifice people.

954
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:35.880
Um, I think to Sarah Diplos would be good to um, uh, Snog.

955
00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:38.579
And I'm going to need to breast silver, couldn't he?

956
00:57:38.699 --> 00:57:41.460
No, and I'm going to marry Vivian Faye for her sausage sandwiches.

957
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:43.619
You know what happens to our husbands.

958
00:57:43.739 --> 00:57:44.639
Anyway, what's Nathan's?

959
00:57:44.699 --> 00:57:47.099
Robert Holmes, Anthony Reed or Douglas Adams?

960
00:57:47.159 --> 00:57:47.940
Ooh.

961
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:49.019
Wow.

962
00:57:49.079 --> 00:57:49.860
Wow.

963
00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:53.880
Anthony Reed has a, well, had a Luvic beard as well.

964
00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:55.500
So...

965
00:57:55.500 --> 00:58:01.739
I think I'm going to avoid Anthony Reid.

966
00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:08.820
I think he's probably the weakest out of those 3 as a script editor, and I just can't respect someone who's very good indeed at their job.

967
00:58:09.539 --> 00:58:11.880
Don't you know Android?

968
00:58:11.940 --> 00:58:15.360
But I think I will...

969
00:58:15.360 --> 00:58:18.780
I think I'll marry Douglas Adams.

970
00:58:18.840 --> 00:58:20.460
Oh, yeah, just for the parties.

971
00:58:20.519 --> 00:58:22.619
Oh, yeah. endlessly entertaining.

972
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:23.099
That's right.

973
00:58:23.159 --> 00:58:28.679
I'd be hanging out with Tom and Richard Dawkins and Lala and all of these clever people.

974
00:58:28.739 --> 00:58:34.739
Yeah, no, I just think he's one of the great comic writers in English of the entire 20th century.

975
00:58:35.039 --> 00:58:41.340
We were so lucky to have him on Doctor Who, you know, beyond Lucky, but it was just that point in his career.

976
00:58:41.400 --> 00:58:47.820
Marrying him, but I will be sneaking off to see Robert Holmes on the side every so often.

977
00:58:47.820 --> 00:58:49.019
Just for the pipe.

978
00:58:49.500 --> 00:58:55.199
That leads us into, obviously, discussion about these 3 scripted editors from the 1970s.

979
00:58:55.260 --> 00:59:01.380
I'm gonna put bid me aside for the moment being 80s, and I think we'll have a bigger discussion.

980
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:04.500
And we talked about him a lot in the last few podcasts.

981
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:06.480
But these 3 script editors.

982
00:59:06.539 --> 00:59:10.320
What are our thoughts about their legacy on the show and what they brought to the table?

983
00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:13.679
I think Holmes was an absolute genius.

984
00:59:13.739 --> 00:59:24.719
He had a talent for creating worlds, he had, you know, he did biting satire, he was withy, his groups are hilarious.

985
00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:29.519
And he has a sort of sound idea of what is entertaining.

986
00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:39.900
But he has a cynicism and I think misogyny, which makes him flawed.

987
00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:44.340
So the show would be poorer without him a lot poorer.

988
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:46.679
Same with Blake 7. you know what I mean?

989
00:59:46.739 --> 00:59:52.079
Like Lake 7 is often not great, but the Holmes episodes are always just reliably, really incredibly good.

990
00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:53.940
But as a script editor.

991
00:59:54.059 --> 01:00:09.719
Yeah, so as a script editor, he is responsible for, I think, largely responsible for Hingcliffe's reputation, like the Hingcliffe Euras reputation, as a run of really good stories.

992
01:00:09.780 --> 01:00:17.039
You know, We talk about the budget and stuff and we say that, you know, Williams suffered from budgetary problems.

993
01:00:17.099 --> 01:00:27.840
But he also suffered from scripting problems, and there are some terrible scripts under Williams's watch, and there are no, I don't think there are any really comparably terrible scripts under homes.

994
01:00:27.900 --> 01:00:33.719
There is that dichotomy or duality between the two, which when he masters it, it's extraordinary.

995
01:00:33.780 --> 01:00:41.820
There's nothing like a last minute effort, we've said before, but really putting a lot of adrenaline in and getting something quite extraordinary out of it, but you can't keep that up.

996
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:43.739
No, no.

997
01:00:43.739 --> 01:00:45.179
Yeah, Robert Holmes...

998
01:00:45.659 --> 01:00:48.300
Every year, he's on the show.

999
01:00:48.360 --> 01:00:50.880
A script falls through and he has to do the replacement.

1000
01:00:51.000 --> 01:00:55.019
And they're often regarded incredibly highly.

1001
01:00:55.079 --> 01:01:03.179
So, and right, this is the arc in space, Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Wang Chang, you know, were all scripts meant to be written by other writers.

1002
01:01:03.239 --> 01:01:05.880
In some cases completely written.

1003
01:01:05.940 --> 01:01:09.599
The scripts were done and deemed unsuitable.

1004
01:01:09.659 --> 01:01:14.340
Maybe it would have been nice for Anthony Reed at that time to do that on, say, Armageddon factor.

1005
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:18.960
And then you get Douglas Adams, who is just magnificent.

1006
01:01:19.619 --> 01:01:26.519
And the show is suddenly incredibly imaginative and witty.

1007
01:01:26.579 --> 01:01:33.719
At the same time, it's dealing with a huge budget crisis and everything looks terrible, but sounds wonderful, you know?

1008
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:43.980
Yeah, it's a weird era of extremes when it's least imaginative scripts where perhaps when it had the greatest support from the series.

1009
01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:52.139
But then when they started getting more imaginative scripts, the BBC were just kind of going, oh, you know, we'll just cut Doctor Who's budget and they'll make it work somehow.

1010
01:01:52.380 --> 01:01:57.239
Uh, in terms of quality, look, They're ooh.

1011
01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:00.119
They're all good writers and they're all good at their jobs.

1012
01:02:00.179 --> 01:02:06.659
And the weird, weird thing about the Hinchcliffe Homes era is, you know, we counted there were so few roles for women.

1013
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:16.739
I think we counted 5 speaking women who weren't Sarah across the 3 years, but at the same time, those characters are Vira and Betan and...

1014
01:02:16.800 --> 01:02:19.920
And Miss Winters and twos.

1015
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:22.320
And...

1016
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:23.760
Winters again.

1017
01:02:23.820 --> 01:02:26.039
And Amelia Ducar, you know.

1018
01:02:26.099 --> 01:02:27.539
And the Ghoul.

1019
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:30.300
I can all see that one.

1020
01:02:31.739 --> 01:02:40.559
Yeah, it's kind of weird that they didn't want that many women around, but when they had women, they wrote them really interesting characters.

1021
01:02:40.619 --> 01:02:41.820
It's also the 70s.

1022
01:02:41.880 --> 01:02:44.699
You watch anything else at the time on television. how it was.

1023
01:02:44.820 --> 01:02:50.940
Yeah, it seemed to be this thing of, and we have a woman and we'll have to make her interesting, so boys will watch her.

1024
01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:53.579
Yeah, which is that's slightly ugly.

1025
01:02:53.639 --> 01:03:06.360
Whereas Graham Williams had a lot better roles for women, and we get Lady Adrasta, and we get Countess Scarlioni and Claire Keatley, um, in, in Shada.

1026
01:03:06.420 --> 01:03:07.980
We get Princess Astra.

1027
01:03:08.039 --> 01:03:15.719
We get, um, but is this coming from Williams, is it coming from Anthony Reid and Douglas Adams, as script editors?

1028
01:03:15.780 --> 01:03:19.980
Well, That's a good point.

1029
01:03:20.039 --> 01:03:23.760
Yeah, are we, are we getting, am I getting more into the, the, um...

1030
01:03:23.760 --> 01:03:26.280
Do so side of things now.

1031
01:03:26.340 --> 01:03:26.940
I suppose I am.

1032
01:03:27.000 --> 01:03:36.480
I mean, I think that's the strength of Adams and Anthony Reid, is that they're willing to have women in all these roles and allowing their writers to do that, you know?

1033
01:03:36.539 --> 01:03:38.880
It's still not that great, though.

1034
01:03:38.940 --> 01:03:40.019
Do you know what I mean?

1035
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:42.420
It is still overwhelmingly man, isn't it?

1036
01:03:42.480 --> 01:03:45.599
Like, I thought there was a big arctic, but it's not a massive...

1037
01:03:45.659 --> 01:03:47.880
And when they're there, apart from a dresser.

1038
01:03:47.940 --> 01:03:50.099
They're all secondary characters or supports.

1039
01:03:50.159 --> 01:04:04.139
But, you know, when you look at the other sci-fi being made around the same time, when you look at Battlestar Galactica, when you look at Buck Rogers, I wasn't even thinking of the American ones, it was the same in British television, apart from Penelope Keith, everyone else was subservient.

1040
01:04:04.199 --> 01:04:04.679
Yeah.

1041
01:04:04.739 --> 01:04:07.019
Whereas, you know, Doctor Who...

1042
01:04:07.079 --> 01:04:19.860
And certainly it's not every single story, but you do get Amelia Dukara, Amelia Rumford, and Vivian Fay, Princess Astra, you know, it's certainly by no means cursing.

1043
01:04:19.920 --> 01:04:20.880
You've done that one, haven't you?

1044
01:04:20.940 --> 01:04:21.179
Yes.

1045
01:04:21.179 --> 01:04:23.579
Yes, that's...

1046
01:04:24.420 --> 01:04:29.219
Female representation gets better across Tom's era.

1047
01:04:29.219 --> 01:04:31.260
Yeah. than where it felt.

1048
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:32.820
I mean, Tom gets better across his era.

1049
01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:33.659
You might say not.

1050
01:04:33.719 --> 01:04:36.059
No, no, I think I'd agree with you there.

1051
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:37.800
I think I'd agree with you.

1052
01:04:37.860 --> 01:04:39.179
I love the different tones.

1053
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:48.480
I think the material in the Graham Williams era, for which Robert Holmes is responsible for the beginning, but you know, you get the difference in tone when Anthony Reid comes in.

1054
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:56.579
Tom reacts very interestingly to the change in tone. know, whereas in season 18, he fights the change in tone.

1055
01:04:56.639 --> 01:05:02.159
With Graham Williams, and he did fight with Graham Williams, but He...

1056
01:05:02.340 --> 01:05:07.800
I get that at that time that was more about him going, yeah, but what are we doing?

1057
01:05:07.860 --> 01:05:10.260
You know, I'm excited, but I want to know what you want me to do.

1058
01:05:10.380 --> 01:05:19.920
And you see a marked change and I think I think he actually has a lot more fun as challenging as those 3 years with Graham Williams R in terms of budgets and everything.

1059
01:05:19.980 --> 01:05:23.820
He seems to be having more fun than he was with Philip Hingcliff.

1060
01:05:23.880 --> 01:05:26.099
And Robert Holmes.

1061
01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:29.579
I'm not sure if I really answer the question because I want to produce this.

1062
01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:31.380
No, no, no, that's cool.

1063
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:31.800
That's cool.

1064
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:35.880
I mean, do we want to throw the final scripted into the mix?

1065
01:05:35.940 --> 01:05:37.980
and there's a comparison to the others.

1066
01:05:38.940 --> 01:05:41.280
I know that it's fair to do so.

1067
01:05:41.340 --> 01:05:46.320
I'd rather be a good need to say would end his I think so too. age.

1068
01:05:46.380 --> 01:05:47.099
It's a different age.

1069
01:05:47.159 --> 01:05:47.760
Yeah.

1070
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:52.440
I'll say one thing in that he had a clear vision.

1071
01:05:52.679 --> 01:05:54.900
He set out to achieve it.

1072
01:05:54.960 --> 01:06:00.480
And it's laid the groundwork for what will start talking about in 2 weeks.

1073
01:06:00.539 --> 01:06:02.519
So we'll see how that goes.

1074
01:06:02.579 --> 01:06:05.159
All right, before we wrap up.

1075
01:06:05.219 --> 01:06:14.460
I just want to ask, you know, we're about to go into Davison and Davidson years as we sit here now before we get into that.

1076
01:06:14.519 --> 01:06:25.320
What is your current or held opinion of Davison, the Davis, heading into Davison, heading into Davis.

1077
01:06:25.380 --> 01:06:27.420
Okay, I'll say something a bit cryptic here.

1078
01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:34.739
Before I started rewatching Davison for the podcast, I found his doctor boring.

1079
01:06:35.219 --> 01:06:38.579
Bland, dong, and uninteresting.

1080
01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:39.719
Dong dong.

1081
01:06:39.780 --> 01:06:45.300
All I will say right now is having watched him again for the podcast.

1082
01:06:45.420 --> 01:06:47.760
My opinion has changed.

1083
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.699
Ooh, subtly, what is worse?

1084
01:06:51.300 --> 01:06:53.820
Richard, what are you looking forward to?

1085
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:56.039
I don't know that I coined the term.

1086
01:06:56.099 --> 01:07:02.639
I probably got it off a labelling ad, but I called him vanilla beige. in the 80s.

1087
01:07:02.699 --> 01:07:04.380
It actually, and it wasn't just the costume.

1088
01:07:04.440 --> 01:07:13.500
I found him very bland, but I watched the 1st just through the 1st season of 19, I'd have to say, not to preempt, but half of them had to come out of their plastic wrappers.

1089
01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:15.119
It's better than I remember.

1090
01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:16.320
But for different reasons.

1091
01:07:16.440 --> 01:07:22.920
But I'm not getting the same rush of emotions. certainly that I got watching Tom and I thought that was just being a young person.

1092
01:07:22.980 --> 01:07:28.139
But I've got a lot of those again watching as a relatively young adult.

1093
01:07:28.199 --> 01:07:30.840
Like he said, without any sense of irony.

1094
01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:39.300
I think, I think there's a problem with Davison, and it is that we're picking someone to contrast with Tom.

1095
01:07:39.360 --> 01:07:41.280
I want someone to be different from Tom.

1096
01:07:41.340 --> 01:07:57.960
And so the way that they're going to make him different is instead of making him this central figure that we all focus on and are really entertained to watch, he becomes part of a pretty gruesome ensemble.

1097
01:07:58.079 --> 01:08:02.400
And so he's a good actor.

1098
01:08:02.460 --> 01:08:03.780
Probably.

1099
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:06.539
Um, but he's timied, yeah.

1100
01:08:06.599 --> 01:08:09.360
Yeah, well, he's not given any direction as well.

1101
01:08:09.420 --> 01:08:12.059
You know, the doctorate still has to be the central character.

1102
01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:21.539
Now, he has to be the central character, but they don't really have any idea of what they want him to be like or what they really want him to do.

1103
01:08:21.659 --> 01:08:32.279
And it is that thing that someone said at the end of the last episode where he sits up and kind of looks around like a deer in the headlines because he doesn't know what to do next.

1104
01:08:32.279 --> 01:08:36.720
And you do get the impression that no one has actually told him what they want of him.

1105
01:08:37.020 --> 01:08:44.880
There's just a lot of nervous cows in the room, in the field, backing off slowly, because they know what he did on all creatures, great and small.

1106
01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:49.859
I wonder if the audience is feeling any of the same trepidation.

1107
01:08:50.699 --> 01:08:52.859
It's interesting for myself.

1108
01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:55.079
I never liked him as a kid.

1109
01:08:55.140 --> 01:08:59.039
I gave him a chance in the 1st few stories, I think.

1110
01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:00.779
I was struggling with tour leading.

1111
01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:06.060
I didn't engage with many of the stories. which I often felt let down by.

1112
01:09:06.119 --> 01:09:08.819
Yeah, and certainly by the end of it, I just wanted him gone.

1113
01:09:08.939 --> 01:09:09.300
Yeah.

1114
01:09:09.300 --> 01:09:14.520
If you had to come over to my place to watch the book 2 story, I will never, ever, ever choose a Peter Davidson.

1115
01:09:14.579 --> 01:09:17.279
He's like the cur twin for you, Nathan.

1116
01:09:17.340 --> 01:09:19.199
Oh, I love Perty.

1117
01:09:19.260 --> 01:09:20.819
He's the Nadir.

1118
01:09:20.880 --> 01:09:22.199
He's got a lot of ironing to do.

1119
01:09:22.260 --> 01:09:24.000
Before what, this journey?

1120
01:09:24.060 --> 01:09:26.699
No, he absolutely did.

1121
01:09:26.699 --> 01:09:27.359
Doctor Who.

1122
01:09:27.420 --> 01:09:28.079
Is that interesting?

1123
01:09:28.140 --> 01:09:32.039
So I guess for me, I fell out of love with Doctor Who.

1124
01:09:32.100 --> 01:09:37.260
And, um, you know, I was watching it, but I didn't, it was more out of habit.

1125
01:09:37.439 --> 01:09:39.720
And I guess the thing is this.

1126
01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:42.960
As I was saying, I never go.

1127
01:09:43.020 --> 01:09:46.560
I never, ever go and pick a Davidson, only Davidson I'll ever chooses the 5 doctors.

1128
01:09:46.619 --> 01:09:58.500
So I guess in this journey I want, part of me wants to discover, and I suspect that I will, that he is a good actor, and it's possibly what's going on around him, that is what I don't particularly like.

1129
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:03.300
But I'm hoping that there are stories that I will like a lot more.

1130
01:10:03.359 --> 01:10:05.159
I mean, you have to come from.

1131
01:10:05.220 --> 01:10:10.979
I'm coming from the base that Kindle was my most hated Dr. 2 story of all time, and it's a sequel.

1132
01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:13.680
It sequel was even I loathed it even more.

1133
01:10:13.739 --> 01:10:16.020
I like to even less than Kindle.

1134
01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:18.000
So for me...

1135
01:10:18.060 --> 01:10:19.380
Well, you get that story, you know?

1136
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:20.279
I know.

1137
01:10:20.340 --> 01:10:29.279
And that season, that season, I mean, is one of for many years has been one of my least favourite seasons, season 20, I believe I'm going to be on four.

1138
01:10:29.340 --> 01:10:37.859
So I'm actually looking forward to finding good things. in amongst whatever is.

1139
01:10:37.920 --> 01:10:40.439
And I think Peter is going to be one of them.

1140
01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:41.520
Wow.

1141
01:10:41.579 --> 01:10:42.899
I adore season 20.

1142
01:10:45.840 --> 01:10:47.640
I almost stopped.

1143
01:10:47.699 --> 01:10:48.659
I almost quit the podcast.

1144
01:10:48.720 --> 01:10:49.680
No, no, no.

1145
01:10:49.739 --> 01:10:50.579
I watched it now.

1146
01:10:50.640 --> 01:10:51.960
I almost didn't get through it.

1147
01:10:52.020 --> 01:10:53.520
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1148
01:10:53.579 --> 01:10:55.020
Oh, don't...

1149
01:10:55.079 --> 01:10:56.399
Don't let James hear you say that.

1150
01:10:56.460 --> 01:10:57.420
It'll be after your job.

1151
01:11:16.979 --> 01:11:21.239
That brings us to the end of our Tom Baker retrospective dealers.

1152
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:21.899
No, no, no.

1153
01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:24.600
We'll be back next week with our commentary on K9 and Company.

1154
01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:25.739
K9?

1155
01:11:25.859 --> 01:11:29.460
I think I need to go and pick up a phone and walk out the door at the same time.

1156
01:11:31.619 --> 01:11:39.960
Until next week, you can find us online at flightsthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FDE podcast on Twitter.

1157
01:11:40.020 --> 01:11:52.560
Don't forget, Doctor Who in 10 seconds over on YouTube, and our bond finger commentaries where we've just started the Roger Moore era with Live and Let Die on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

1158
01:11:52.619 --> 01:11:57.720
Until next week, May none of your talking vegetables scupper your choice for companion.

1159
01:11:57.779 --> 01:11:59.579
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

1160
01:11:59.640 --> 01:12:00.359
Good night.

1161
01:12:00.420 --> 01:12:01.260
See you soon.

1162
01:12:01.319 --> 01:12:01.859
Good, everyone.

1163
01:12:07.979 --> 01:12:13.560
That was Flight Your Entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1164
01:12:13.560 --> 01:12:15.659
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1165
01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:20.880
This episode, it's all about him, was recorded on May 1st, 2016.

1166
01:12:21.060 --> 01:12:23.699
The next episode will be released on June 5th.

1167
01:12:23.819 --> 01:12:27.300
How can one sum up Tom Baker's doctor in one sentence?

1168
01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:29.399
He was a beautiful doctor, probably.

1169
01:12:33.840 --> 01:12:35.520
You hear me?

1170
01:12:35.579 --> 01:12:36.840
Uh, Ken, hold on.

1171
01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:37.979
Can anyone fear me?

1172
01:12:38.039 --> 01:12:39.659
Sorry, let's go.

1173
01:12:39.720 --> 01:12:41.159
It's part of the retrospective.

1174
01:12:41.220 --> 01:12:45.899
You know, I work with someone this tall who's called Balal, and it's a man.

1175
01:12:46.020 --> 01:12:48.000
He really is that tall.

1176
01:12:48.060 --> 01:12:49.380
It works out a lot.

1177
01:12:49.439 --> 01:12:52.199
He's very cute if you like actual figures and he's got a Middle East.

1178
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:52.979
Oh, that's right.

1179
01:12:53.039 --> 01:12:53.640
I forgot Alfie.

1180
01:12:53.760 --> 01:12:55.319
And like socks..

1181
01:12:55.380 --> 01:12:57.359
Are you eating Brendan socks, mate.

1182
01:12:57.420 --> 01:12:58.319
And he's got big eyes.

1183
01:12:58.380 --> 01:12:58.920
I can't stop.