WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:36:35

1
00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:29.699
Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, which provides you with something like a neutral environment, an isolated space cut off from the rest of the universe, especially if you're trying to get a drink past 3 a.m. I'm Brendan.

2
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:30.420
I'm Nathan.

3
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:34.740
I'm Todd, and I'm the last remnants of the Hadron Collider for this episode.

4
00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:38.219
Are you sure you haven't got a typo there, Richard?

5
00:00:38.820 --> 00:00:42.719
Because we're caught in a web and we can't get out.

6
00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:44.159
It's Castra Valva.

7
00:01:38.219 --> 00:01:41.340
Oh, Nathan, you've been looking forward to this so much.

8
00:01:41.400 --> 00:01:43.140
It's really terrible.

9
00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:53.819
Like, I haven't really been looking forward to the 80s, which is why the most recent Doctor Who story I've seen is Castra Valver.

10
00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:55.500
I haven't been looking ahead.

11
00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:58.680
I have to steal myself to get to Fort to Doomsday.

12
00:01:58.739 --> 00:02:02.939
And, you know, I've had a pretty high opinion of Crispidmead.

13
00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:11.699
I think, you know, Lagopolis while sort of flawed and plotless is a great culmination of a really great season. bloodless.

14
00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:12.419
It's my life.

15
00:02:13.800 --> 00:02:17.520
But this is the 1st story of a new doctor.

16
00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:22.139
It's really important and it's the 1st new doctor for 7 years.

17
00:02:22.199 --> 00:02:27.539
It's crucial that this comes off. he just comes up with something flawed and plotless again.

18
00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:31.560
Where's Project 4G when you need it?

19
00:02:31.620 --> 00:02:33.599
I don't know what that is.

20
00:02:33.659 --> 00:02:34.620
Brendan.

21
00:02:34.620 --> 00:02:36.120
Oh, well, I was just going to say.

22
00:02:36.180 --> 00:02:38.939
Flanagan and McCulloch, who wrote Megalos last year.

23
00:02:38.939 --> 00:02:40.139
And underneath the Archers.

24
00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:41.580
Oh no, that's Flanagan and Alan.

25
00:02:41.699 --> 00:02:48.120
We're commissioned to write the 5th doctor's debut story. initially known as Project 4G, later Project Zita Sigma.

26
00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:51.000
And it was gripping already, isn't it?

27
00:02:51.060 --> 00:02:54.000
It was going to be a parable for the Cold War.

28
00:02:54.060 --> 00:03:00.960
It was going to be 2 worlds on the brink of nuclear MAD, nuclear short destruction.

29
00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:04.259
Just thinking back to how much Todd enjoyed the Armageddon fact.

30
00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:05.879
Oh dear god, no.

31
00:03:05.939 --> 00:03:10.860
So essentially it was going to be the Armageddon factor, but with the master instead of the marshal.

32
00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:15.120
And for whatever reason, the script was deemed unacceptable.

33
00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:19.319
You deemed it unacceptable.

34
00:03:19.379 --> 00:03:21.780
I believe it was actually Anthony Root.

35
00:03:21.900 --> 00:03:23.819
Oh, one of the few good things he probably did.

36
00:03:23.819 --> 00:03:27.840
Well, come back to him later.

37
00:03:27.900 --> 00:03:42.060
Now, the thing is, they did give it as much chance as possible because when the scripts for Project Z to Sigma ran into trouble, that's when we had this creative choice switcher may have puzzled some hint, dear listener, to record the 1st 5th Doctor Stories out of order.

38
00:03:42.060 --> 00:03:45.300
And indeed, they were recorded 2341.

39
00:03:45.539 --> 00:03:49.500
So that was always the intention, even when this was a project Zita sigma.

40
00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:59.819
But yeah, Project Zita Sigma fell by the wayside, and so Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, roughly refreshed by now from his duty as a script editor. was asked to come up with another story.

41
00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:02.939
Wow, I always thought it was Project Zita Minor.

42
00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:07.860
So I've lived for 30 years going, oh, they're going to go back there.

43
00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:12.419
Salamar, you wanted it for Shinsky.

44
00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:19.259
I think we need to say, though, that this is by the greatest director of all time, Fiona Cumming.

45
00:04:19.319 --> 00:04:21.720
And she also worked on the Highlanders and the Mutants.

46
00:04:21.779 --> 00:04:23.939
So there's really nothing not to love about newscoming.

47
00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:25.680
Well I don't think she's that good.

48
00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:29.399
No, there are more than 2 shots that I think are pretty good.

49
00:04:29.459 --> 00:04:35.399
I really like the shot where Tegan is looking through the open door of the ambulance of the Keys.

50
00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:37.199
I think that's really terrifically fun.

51
00:04:37.259 --> 00:04:38.819
There is some beautiful...

52
00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:43.199
You know, I've watched a few of hers now and Fiona, and I think she's got the intent.

53
00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:48.899
She wants to give you the feel, but I don't always think that it pulls off on Doctor Who's budget, you know?

54
00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:55.740
Certainly, what happens in season 19 is a giant disappointment, I think.

55
00:04:55.800 --> 00:05:01.199
And part of it is that it's just visually not as interesting as season 18 had been.

56
00:05:01.259 --> 00:05:04.800
And it's not just that it's, you know, now we're a year into it.

57
00:05:04.860 --> 00:05:06.779
Season 19 is the same old look.

58
00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:13.740
I actually think the look gets worse that it just gets more pedestrian and less inventive this season.

59
00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.959
And I think the same thing happens with the scripts.

60
00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:22.740
I think, you know, Bidmeat had been telling a continuous story ever since full circle and had done a great job of it.

61
00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:27.600
Now, no one really knows what direction we're heading in or what we're doing.

62
00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:31.139
And so, again, I think the quality falls off.

63
00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:42.420
But here it is kind of inexcusable, that the story faps around for something like 2 episodes, just like Lagopolis did, without really giving us a threat.

64
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:46.980
I mean, you've got the master, but he's terrible, instantly, he's jumped the shard.

65
00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:51.720
Well, yeah, the master is always that point of Noll field.

66
00:05:51.779 --> 00:05:54.000
I think other people called it Brisbane, didn't they?

67
00:05:54.060 --> 00:05:56.040
But hearing all of these stories.

68
00:05:56.100 --> 00:06:08.579
But the 1st 2 or 3 episodes I really loved, and I love the visual styling, and I love the direction, and I love the score, and I love that for once, we don't go to another planet or someone else's idea of a science fiction story.

69
00:06:08.699 --> 00:06:10.199
We go inside a picture book.

70
00:06:10.259 --> 00:06:17.339
This is probably the greatest and most beautiful thing Doctor Who has done since the mind roller, but it takes children into a book.

71
00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:21.480
In this case, Graham McDonald's wall panelling of MCS's drawings.

72
00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:24.600
But, you know, cash for valve, there is actually one of his drawings.

73
00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:32.459
I was so excited as a boy that this was taking me into Edwardian fantasy in the way that Arthur Rackham's drawings.

74
00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:40.319
There's a whole period of beautiful etchings done by English artists of children's books, such as the I Nesbit ones.

75
00:06:40.379 --> 00:06:44.339
And it's parallel really nicely in the styling with Esher.

76
00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:49.079
And this honestly just feels like we're inside a lovely picture book until they press the Quantil button.

77
00:06:49.139 --> 00:06:54.120
I think you mean George McDonald rather than BBC head of cereals, Graham McDonald.

78
00:06:54.180 --> 00:06:55.139
Did I say grand?

79
00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:57.899
No, no, Graham McDonald's?

80
00:06:58.019 --> 00:07:03.959
Head of cereals, Graham McDonald. had an issue of print on his, and apparently...

81
00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:09.540
And Bidmead said it was him who saw it and Nathan Turner says it was I who saw it.

82
00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:11.579
It was Nathan Turner Woods.

83
00:07:11.639 --> 00:07:16.379
Plus, plus Bidmead says that the reason he based a whole story around Asia Prince is.

84
00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:21.779
Apparently John Nathan Turner would walk out of meetings with Graham McDonald saying, oh God, that picture makes my eyes hurt.

85
00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:22.980
I really hate it.

86
00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:24.480
So bit me went, right.

87
00:07:24.540 --> 00:07:26.100
I'm gonna write you a story about this.

88
00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:27.720
Can I defend the 1st 2 episodes?

89
00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:29.220
Please, please do.

90
00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:30.000
You're amongst friends.

91
00:07:30.060 --> 00:07:32.759
Because I really enjoy those.

92
00:07:32.819 --> 00:07:34.620
And maybe it's my memory as a child.

93
00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:36.600
This was when I constantly watched as a child.

94
00:07:36.660 --> 00:07:41.100
But as an adult, something I really appreciated about it. something we talked about 2 weeks ago.

95
00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:45.240
I say 2 weeks ago, hopeful that I haven't taken another week off, editing, dear listeners.

96
00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:57.300
But something we said 2 weeks ago is, you know, we've got so many characters they don't get a chance to shine with Matthew Waterhouse in Anthony Amy's Dungeon and Peter Davis and Comatose.

97
00:07:57.360 --> 00:08:04.019
The 1st 2 episodes are all about Tegan and Nissa and they're solving problems and they're being proactive.

98
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:10.439
But also, what's very interesting is it presents the 2 mentalities of the characters.

99
00:08:10.500 --> 00:08:15.779
Like when Nissa, at the beginning of episode 2, says, all we can do is close the scanner, which I think is a very powerful moment.

100
00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.500
But it's actually Tegan that says, well, no, there's more we can do.

101
00:08:19.560 --> 00:08:20.819
Maybe we can fly the thing.

102
00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:27.720
I'm not saying it's perfect by any means, but it gives us a much better idea of these 2 characters than in Legopolis.

103
00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:34.379
And that may also be a result of recording it right in the middle of the season when they already have a grip on their characters.

104
00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:42.840
But I quite like that we have the 2 female leads leading the show, while the 2 male leads are incapacitated.

105
00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:50.039
I was wondering whether it passed the Bechdel test, but I think they're talking about the doctor so much that probably doesn't.

106
00:08:50.100 --> 00:08:50.460
That's true.

107
00:08:50.519 --> 00:08:52.200
No, I agree with you.

108
00:08:52.259 --> 00:09:00.000
I do like the fact that they're given, Tegan, we don't really know, you know, we're only beginning to find out about her.

109
00:09:00.059 --> 00:09:04.620
And it's a nice opportunity for them to take the lead.

110
00:09:04.620 --> 00:09:07.259
You know, Adric is effectively sidelined.

111
00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:10.259
And I think that's part of the problem with your season is having the 3 companions.

112
00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:11.039
What do you do with them?

113
00:09:11.100 --> 00:09:14.879
And Adrik does really well when he's sidelined.

114
00:09:16.019 --> 00:09:19.440
He uses a bot device here and it does kind of work.

115
00:09:19.500 --> 00:09:21.539
He does come into his own in this episode.

116
00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:23.100
Yeah you can tell.

117
00:09:23.639 --> 00:09:36.659
The blue box boy, the Matthew Waterhouse autobiography suggests that anyone who's seen Castro Valver will know whether Matthew himself dresses to the left or the right. dresses away from the window.

118
00:09:36.779 --> 00:09:39.240
What do you think of Janet's performance?

119
00:09:39.299 --> 00:09:40.259
There's nowhere to go after that.

120
00:09:40.620 --> 00:09:41.220
Janet.

121
00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:41.820
Yes, Janet.

122
00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:42.539
I love Janet.

123
00:09:42.600 --> 00:09:50.039
It's really interesting because I think everything's been recorded out of order with 4 to Doomsday, then visitation, Kinder, and then this.

124
00:09:50.100 --> 00:09:55.500
And I think her performances in those other 3 are very unsubtle.

125
00:09:55.559 --> 00:10:01.080
This is the 1st time I think she gets a handle on light and shade in the character. don't think it's perfect.

126
00:10:01.139 --> 00:10:02.940
I think in the latter episodes.

127
00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:11.039
Unfortunately, Tegan is hysterical over losing the 0 cabinet every 5 seconds and, you know, goes into her bolshy sort of mode that she does do.

128
00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:12.840
But she's better in this.

129
00:10:12.899 --> 00:10:15.120
This is the 1st time that I feel that she's improving.

130
00:10:15.179 --> 00:10:17.580
Yeah, yeah, she will be horrible next week.

131
00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:21.539
There is that big. week after every week after that.

132
00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:30.120
There's a bit when they're climbing up to Castra Valver and she's tired and the 2 of them are talking and she's really raining it in and giving a sort of subtle performance.

133
00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:42.000
Well, and that's quite surprising because Fiona Cumming really had to find those shots because Janet Fielding, I don't know about now, but then was absolutely terrified of heights, even being 5 or 6 feet off the ground.

134
00:10:42.059 --> 00:10:44.100
She was finding really difficult.

135
00:10:44.220 --> 00:10:52.860
So Fiona Cumming sort of says that, you know, directing it, I had to go for very low angles, but Janet gives a great performance despite the fact she was terrified of what we were doing.

136
00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:55.080
I adored Janet as a kid.

137
00:10:55.139 --> 00:10:56.700
I really did.

138
00:10:56.759 --> 00:10:58.740
And me too, my mother too, didn't she?

139
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:04.620
I did, but now having watched this season, I find the 1st 4 stories very difficult.

140
00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:07.500
It's not until she's given alcohol in...

141
00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:10.860
She's like, she's funny and from that point forward.

142
00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:20.159
That's true From that point forward, I enjoy her performance because she manages to find the moments to pick when she can be a bit more caddy a bit more narky, you know?

143
00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:23.940
Tegan's written very one note, but she manages to find that light and shape.

144
00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:28.500
Here, it's the transition story because it's the 4th one recorded.

145
00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:35.100
And I think there are good moments and there's sort of terrible children's TV overacting, really.

146
00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:37.860
She is 2 personalities in search of an author, isn't she?

147
00:11:37.919 --> 00:11:38.700
For this.

148
00:11:38.759 --> 00:11:41.639
And she gets Anthony Root, and Eric Saywood.

149
00:11:41.700 --> 00:11:43.080
Yeah, that's wonderful.

150
00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:44.940
What a dynamic, do I?

151
00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:54.120
But the girl's struggling along in that. isn't it interesting that we get an actual proper, what your test that Nathan, that you quote?

152
00:11:54.179 --> 00:12:02.220
It makes a test of 2 women talking to each other about something other than a man almost happens here, although they tend to be talking about the doctor a lot, don't they?

153
00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.399
They do do the hydrogen in rush conversation and that kind of thing.

154
00:12:05.460 --> 00:12:08.820
And the wonderful index file conversation and the nature of recursion.

155
00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:10.799
You still quote that. a beautiful line.

156
00:12:10.860 --> 00:12:13.139
It feels like Douglas Adams has just popped his head in.

157
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:15.720
As Patrick Troughton does in episode three.

158
00:12:15.779 --> 00:12:16.320
Did you know that?

159
00:12:16.379 --> 00:12:25.019
Pat Trouton was on the set standing in for Peter in that scene where, because he just came to visit and say hello on the day, when he when the doctor gets his marbles back.

160
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:27.299
And you know who the child is who teaches Peter to count?

161
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.159
It's Carolyn John's niece.

162
00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:30.000
Oh, really?

163
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:30.960
Whisker John.

164
00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:32.759
We own...

165
00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:34.559
That's the noise the curtains make.

166
00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:39.480
This is the story that really brings together the new era.

167
00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:43.799
And as a boy, I just loved it, but I did love it mostly for them. can we say meta?

168
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:44.820
because it's not a troll.

169
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:46.139
Yes.

170
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:48.360
The fact that we're inside a children's storybook.

171
00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:53.039
And there are a few stories in this season that actually get what Peter's doctor is about.

172
00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:57.179
Do you remember how he'd be playing the character and it wasn't like Tristan but Brave.

173
00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:03.299
And that actually came from it, a child riding into Blue Peter when they were saying, what will the new doctor be like?

174
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.480
Because like you were just saying, it's 7 years since we've seen a face.

175
00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:10.379
We did just have the 4 faces of Doctor Who.

176
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:11.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

177
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:13.799
Wanted to show an episode of All Creatures Great.

178
00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:17.580
No, I think that...

179
00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:18.840
If you don't blink at the end.

180
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.519
I actually like all the stuff inside the TARDIS quite a lot.

181
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:25.259
It looks beautiful, doesn't it?

182
00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:26.639
The 1st time.

183
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.080
Well, what as a kid it did.

184
00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:30.960
Now I think, oh, they're reusing that and that's it.

185
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:32.879
That's the end of the studio there.

186
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:39.720
It's a little bit cheaper, but I think it's only the leisure height that we haven't seen the TARDIS interior, is it?

187
00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:41.340
In the J and T era.

188
00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:47.759
And I think there's very few stories where we don't actually see the tidest interior after, you know, the early 70s where you never see it at all.

189
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:48.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

190
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.539
Now it's, we're going to see it.

191
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.879
He's domesticating the crew, isn't he?

192
00:13:53.940 --> 00:14:08.159
Yeah, and it will it will become unnecessarily fetishized, if you like, that we have to see the inside of the TARDIS to get the story going rather than the ship just lands, which we will see much later in the series, thanks to Andrew Cartmel, but we're getting way ahead of ourselves.

193
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.799
You know, you get born, yes, is he?

194
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:16.019
Later on, it kind of feels like it gets to the point where they go, oh, well, we have to have a Tana scene.

195
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.940
Oh, well, the Tata scene will have to be 2 minutes long then.

196
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.340
Oh, but we can't we don't have any plot information yet.

197
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:23.279
Oh, we'll just have everyone bitching at each other in front inside the time.

198
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:27.659
It's like trying to write season one of Next Generation's trick, isn't it?

199
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:28.259
Yes.

200
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.019
Everyone needs everyone needs their 30 seconds of fame.

201
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.700
I do like P-shake.

202
00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:33.539
Yeah, I like it.

203
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:34.259
I like him in this a lot.

204
00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:39.059
I like him wandering around the TARDIS and the doctor talking about past companions.

205
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:44.220
I think the whole finding the cricketing thing is very twee, I hate the costume.

206
00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:45.720
They look awful.

207
00:14:45.779 --> 00:14:52.559
And I really hate the hat, you know, every time every time he puts the hat on in any of the stories, it's like, just ditch the hat.

208
00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:53.220
Ditch the hair.

209
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:53.879
I just...

210
00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:58.320
He is very bald for a 29-year-old, but he has terrible hair.

211
00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:01.980
Richard just looks straight at me.

212
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.759
I'm not 29 anymore, but I did have this one.

213
00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:07.440
This little hair when I was 29.

214
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.299
Thanks for pointing it out, mate.

215
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.419
And they're actually quite, really impressed by Peter Davidson.

216
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:20.399
I commented in the past couple of podcasts how this is just the dregs era for me and I really hated him as the doctor.

217
00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:28.379
But the one thing watching him is an energy in these 1st 4 stories, and including this, that I really like about, yeah, I just feel like he's trying so hard.

218
00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:33.299
Later in the season, I think Denny suddenly decides to give up acting for a year and a half .

219
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:38.820
But I do think that he's in there really finding his way or whatever.

220
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.220
I just think this could have been recorded 1st and he would have been fine.

221
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:48.779
I just think that no one knows what he's supposed to be doing, and it's so crucial to establish that in this 1st story.

222
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.500
So he's got post-regeneration, whatever.

223
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:53.519
Stress disorder.

224
00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:56.220
Yeah, and he has that for a month.

225
00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.139
You know, like we've got 4 episodes.

226
00:15:58.740 --> 00:15:59.519
I think it's Tegan.

227
00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:01.379
I think they're just sinking with each other.

228
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.659
To be fair, he has it for 9 days.

229
00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:06.720
Because of course we've moved away from Saturday nights now.

230
00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:09.240
We now have the broadcast Monday, Tuesday.

231
00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:10.919
I have to remember that in future.

232
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:13.320
You said Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Wednesday, this season?

233
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:14.940
It varied.

234
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.299
So I believe I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am Todd.

235
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.039
Monday, Tuesday.

236
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:20.820
Started Monday.

237
00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:22.080
I've got it Monday, Tuesday.

238
00:16:22.139 --> 00:16:25.559
I believe I do believe in Wales in some areas it was Monday, Wednesday.

239
00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.600
I believe in Wales, but I've never been anywhere.

240
00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:29.340
So you are correct.

241
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:30.840
It is it is back to back.

242
00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:31.500
Yeah.

243
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.899
I think next season might they might go to Monday, Wednesday.

244
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.679
Now, this is a good point to ask what we all thought about that.

245
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:39.360
It didn't really affect us in Australia.

246
00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:44.340
We saw this right after episode 4 of Legopolis. less than 24 hours later.

247
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.740
And I think hearing was still weekly as well.

248
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:47.220
It was.

249
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:52.679
It was a Tuesday, Wednesday night, I have it etched on my little frontal lobes at the time running home from school to see it.

250
00:16:52.740 --> 00:17:09.960
But this has been argued that, you know, Saturday afternoon tea time, sacrosanct for Dr. Basil Brush, and the generation game, which at one point, that Bruce Forsyte thing, you know, the man whose dual could open tin can, just like swiping, that was seen by a 3rd of the entire British population.

251
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:12.180
But the ratings, you're the ratings, man.

252
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:18.119
Well, of course, I spoke about last season being an absolute, like, Maya of desolation.

253
00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:22.740
So straight away, 9100000 viewers tuned into episode one.

254
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:31.259
Like, that's higher than everything last season. you know, the highest rating last season, and it was 8.3. and I mentioned like, you know, very few percent, you've got about 7 million.

255
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:38.640
So there's immediate effect, and it charts at 54, and the 2nd episode's down a bit, but the last 2 episodes, 10.2 and 10.4.

256
00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:41.880
That's pretty cool. and they're both in the top top 50.

257
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.359
Dr. Zendeen in the top 50s since season 17.

258
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:49.619
And 10.4 is the highest rated John Nathan Turner episode.

259
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:50.579
Wow.

260
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.980
So obviously it was a good move.

261
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.819
And it was actually directly linked to the poor ratings on Saturday night.

262
00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:06.779
That's right So, yeah, Graham McDonald and then David Reid, who replaced him around this time, were able to look at season 18 and say, look, this is obviously quality television.

263
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.059
It's not that it's bad that people aren't watching.

264
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.319
Oh, they did say that.

265
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:11.039
Did they?

266
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:12.599
Obviously.

267
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.339
They didn't they didn't watch make loss.

268
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:20.579
But, you know, they were able to they were able to look it and go, you know, it's not the program that's at fault. lets try it in a different time.

269
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:21.359
And look what happens.

270
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:26.819
Well, actually, like this season, half the episodes this season are inside the top 15, right?

271
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:31.920
And there's only 3 that place outside the top 70, as opposed to last year, where only 3 got in the top 70.

272
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:40.740
So there's this big shift and the average rating for the season is 9000000 and there's a lot of episodes touching that 9.5 to 10 million.

273
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.079
Do you know where the season is by the end?

274
00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:45.660
Yes, I do.

275
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:51.359
The last episode of the season is the lowest rated episode of the season at 8.one.

276
00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.220
See, that's not so bad, is it?

277
00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:57.900
Yeah, that, you know, that's that's still really amazing, quite frankly.

278
00:18:57.960 --> 00:18:59.160
Especially...

279
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.180
Time flight episode four.

280
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.819
Yeah, you know, were they not watching the previous three?

281
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:10.680
But, you know, episode one of Time Flight gets 10000000 and 26th, which is the highest placed John Nathan Turner episode.

282
00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:14.279
Oh, because that's because they're tuning in. what they wanted to see what happened next.

283
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:16.680
And they squander they squander that.

284
00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:17.519
I mean we'll get to that.

285
00:19:17.579 --> 00:19:24.839
But this whole season is like, you know, lots of episodes are like in the high 8s into the 9s and placing, you know, between 40 and 60s.

286
00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:30.240
It's very much like what Doctor Who was in the middle Tom and John building.

287
00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:33.000
So it's sort of like there's an audience that's come back to see.

288
00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:35.279
And is Pete responsible for that?

289
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:36.900
Because Pete is a big name.

290
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:38.519
Yeah, style vehicle.

291
00:19:38.579 --> 00:19:39.119
I think so.

292
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:44.339
I think a lot of the all creatures, great and small, and it's a piece of tuning in to see...

293
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:47.039
And love for Lydia and sink or swim, were they on at the same time right now?

294
00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:51.059
Well, sink or swim would proceed Doctor Who.

295
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:51.779
Okay.

296
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:56.819
But he was doing 2 other shows concurrently with this, which is why they were mucking things around in order as well.

297
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.539
Well, yeah, it's why he didn't debut until January 1982.

298
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:06.240
It was specifically because the BBC didn't want more than one program featuring him broadcast at a time.

299
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:13.799
Because they had to send Janet to New York to learn Sterner's love ski method so that her crankiness could be convincing. paid off.

300
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.279
Matthew went as well but he just got drunk.

301
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:22.440
I know I'm hijacking the conversation a bit because, you know, I...

302
00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:29.099
I'm just doing this story for this season, but, you know, last season we talked about how good it was, right?

303
00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:30.180
And how bad the ratings were.

304
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.940
This season, the ratings have lifted for the whole season.

305
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.619
And I don't think it's as good a season.

306
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.579
And going into 20, you lose 2000000 viewers between 19 and 20.

307
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:44.880
And is that then a reaction to what goes on in the writing season is the fact that we've got more viewers this season.

308
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:48.900
Not only Pete, but the fact the writing last year and what was going on, the freshness.

309
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:49.799
I don't know.

310
00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:56.039
It does seem to be just a complete lack of interesting what the audience might find appealing.

311
00:20:56.099 --> 00:21:02.579
And so lots and lots of conversations about, You know, I don't think that recursion thing is all that great.

312
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.980
I think a lot of standing around in the TARDIS talking.

313
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.920
Like why is no one ever menaced by monsters?

314
00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:11.460
Why does the doctor, the new doctor not get a hero moment at all?

315
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.380
He doesn't solve anything.

316
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.420
You think about Chris invasion.

317
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:16.259
That's true.

318
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.200
Tenant gets, he's asleep for most of the thing.

319
00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:21.720
It is almost an homage to this story, isn't it?

320
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.299
But then they actually put on the Wincy at pyjamas and make him do something.

321
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:34.799
So he defeats the Santas really early, so we get to see what he's like before, you know, his final big hero moment, which is like nearly an hour, and it's really late.

322
00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:38.819
Whereas here, the doctor really doesn't do anything.

323
00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:41.579
He spends his entire time being carried around.

324
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:48.180
He does those inexplicable impersonations of Troughton and Hart and all better than Herndel.

325
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:48.960
Oh, they good.

326
00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.180
They're not bad, but why are we doing them?

327
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:52.559
Who are we doing that for?

328
00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:58.799
And those references to Vicki and Joe. Like, that's so sort of Doctor Who monster book.

329
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:04.140
Because even they've been sitting there with his rotary file cracking them off that they say that one.

330
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:04.799
Say that one.

331
00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:14.160
Nathan, is it that problem that it's pandering to fans and the general words tuning in, might be going, why are they talking about this?

332
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:17.579
Like Pat, in his 1st story, gets the Daleks.

333
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:19.500
Pete gets architecture.

334
00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:25.559
Like, it's really, it's just normal.

335
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:29.099
Dutch tricky mushroom architecture. that can't exist.

336
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:32.400
You've pinpointed something is that where are the monsters?

337
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.700
And it's something that I'm going...

338
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:39.240
How are you?

339
00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:41.099
She'll hit you with a Mara stick.

340
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:41.819
Sorry, go on tour.

341
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:42.720
But where are the monsters?

342
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:47.579
And it's going to be something that when I come back next season, where are the monsters?

343
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.759
It's, I think it's the ergon next season, to be fair.

344
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:52.980
Oh, dear listener.

345
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.299
And it looks good kill.

346
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.759
Insert ergon field threat.

347
00:22:56.819 --> 00:22:59.460
But there's no there's no threat.

348
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:03.240
I mean, there's a threat, but there's no tangible. a conceptual threat.

349
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:04.140
But that's a lovely thing.

350
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.140
Everything we've seen now is a complete reverse.

351
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:12.420
Peter's playing vulnerable vanilla beige milkshake with a raspy ripple stream through it.

352
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:22.740
It's, you know, everything is the reverse of what we've had, and it's the same way that, no, I love the inclusivity of the story, and we haven't got into the psychobabble stuff yet, have we?

353
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:28.140
But all the literary conceits, but being inside a story inside a story is a really beautiful thing.

354
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:32.759
And it's easy to watch a show from outside and see it as a television program.

355
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:35.279
But we've all said this isn't just a television program.

356
00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:37.380
That is lovely.

357
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:43.019
If it's not, if it's not, if it's not, then the majority of the next 13 stories.

358
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:51.539
Because that's the thing, the mind robber is so good because it's them followed up with the invasion and the seeds of death and the crow, you know, it's them followed up by monsters.

359
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:54.119
Whereas we get Castra Valva, which is very conceptual.

360
00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:56.579
We get 4 to Doomsday, which is a Billy Hart story?

361
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:57.599
Exactly.

362
00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.400
It's a heartful story, but it's very conceptual.

363
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:01.619
It does have monsters, but they just kind of sit around.

364
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:05.819
We get Kinder, which is great and it has monsters, but they're monsters of the mind.

365
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:10.140
We get visitation and earth shark, which are more traditional monster stories.

366
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.240
Terrible traditional monster stories.

367
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:13.380
I enjoy...

368
00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:15.119
Oh, this is going to be a polarising era.

369
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:16.079
Dear listener, yes.

370
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:23.220
And I don't want anyone to get me wrong because I developed a new appreciation of this era when I was watching it back through again with Rod.

371
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:27.059
Peter Davidson, and I'm sorry if you're listening, Peter, but I don't think you are.

372
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.359
Peter Davidson was my least favourite doctor by a long, long way.

373
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:34.740
I found him boring primarily and bored.

374
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.380
I can't...

375
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:38.519
That's my.

376
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:40.319
I'm on the same wavelength.

377
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:42.420
But rewatching him in context.

378
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:52.259
He has lots of little subtleties to his performance, which I think the production are working against because they want to avoid comedy, which is a, it's a big mistake.

379
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:53.819
That's where it falls down.

380
00:24:53.940 --> 00:25:01.140
I think we're going to start seeing, so Todd won't be here for this too, just as Janet picks up, Peter starts to just leave his gloves on the desk here.

381
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.579
I think he starts being bored.

382
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:07.680
All the lovely little MacGyver moments with his bits of string, which is a terry nation invention.

383
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:10.440
And I'm not stringed, but listener.

384
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:15.000
Bill Oddie that invented the...

385
00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.339
And of course, Spike Milligan invented 2 pieces of string.

386
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:17.880
He did.

387
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.359
We should put that out at the end anyway.

388
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:22.140
Sorry.

389
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:32.220
Something I don't like about this story is the fact that, um, okay, we say we get out of the Tartars and then we're on some lovely location work and the girls are running around and then they're running away from these...

390
00:25:32.220 --> 00:25:33.059
Losing their trousers.

391
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.359
They're running away from these warrior people. right?

392
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:40.619
But they don't need to if they just took off their helmets and went, look, we're here to help you.

393
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:41.940
We can see you in the tapestry.

394
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.559
Like it's just this fake out thing.

395
00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:48.480
It's like delaying, getting into castra valver and I'm just, I just sit there going, oh, we're just padding it.

396
00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:53.220
Like, to me, there's 3 episodes in here stretch to four. in 4 reckon this day.

397
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:54.599
There's been 2 stretch before.

398
00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.220
I'm trying to be generous.

399
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.859
In Ford of Doomsday.

400
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:03.119
Like, I really like the 1st couple of episodes and then it's like, well, we're stretching it to four.

401
00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:08.940
In Kinder, I think that there's only 3 episodes stretch to four. with the worst stuff for the hangings for the whole season.

402
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.619
No.

403
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:15.180
I think I think that is the worst story for the companions of the season.

404
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:16.740
I'm not going to be here.

405
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.019
I love kinder, but I'm going to agree with you.

406
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:21.420
I mean, it's not great for Sarah.

407
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:22.380
No, terrible.

408
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:23.099
Well, she's asleep.

409
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:24.779
Janet's asleep.

410
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:34.200
Even though she's having something in the mind, she's actually asleep for over an episode, and Andrew's one moment trying to do something good and one minute utterly crap, it's like he can't write.

411
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:35.880
Suspended in his crappy.

412
00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:38.220
Oh, it's the writing of the content.

413
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:39.660
A very harsh critique on their acting.

414
00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:44.759
I mean, it's got Mary Morris, who I think is 10 out of 10 in every single scene, which is just unbelievable.

415
00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:48.960
And one of the best number 2s ever. in the prisoner. in the prisoner.

416
00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:50.519
It's no Ella Fitzgerald reference.

417
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:59.880
But I get I'm side shacked, but so obvious to me, it's like we're padding to get to Castravalva, and then when we're in Castravalva, What happens?

418
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:01.079
Michael Sheard.

419
00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:02.579
I know, in a pink dress.

420
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.119
I do like that.

421
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.000
The owner puts the guys in dresses and she does that again in snake dance.

422
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:10.259
Yes, yes, yes.

423
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:10.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

424
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:16.680
First our 1st cross gender costuming producer since the arc.

425
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:23.579
Yes, and of course, we have Shardavan, who is obviously set up to be the master.

426
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.519
And the thing is, and the Ali...

427
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:30.720
Sorry, Neil Toyne actually gives an excellent performance as the portrait.

428
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:33.539
You kind of fooled the 1st time around.

429
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:36.240
When you were a little boy, did you know it was a time?

430
00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:37.619
No, I had no idea.

431
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.180
I was 13 and I didn't know.

432
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:39.900
I had no idea.

433
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:45.000
And the shock when he suddenly just begins to lift. was phenomenal. he can act.

434
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:46.079
Rod forgot.

435
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:52.740
When we were watching it again, it was, it was when he was looking at the 0 cabinet that Roger said, hold on.

436
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:53.579
Hop.

437
00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:54.299
Oh.

438
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:54.599
No.

439
00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:56.519
Yes, he's the master.

440
00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:58.200
It was an amazing moment.

441
00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:58.740
It still works.

442
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.200
I just think his best performances in Doctor Who.

443
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.880
Tremus?

444
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.980
And the portrayed where he's not playing the master.

445
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.420
But I have no idea.

446
00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:08.519
I don't understand the plan.

447
00:28:08.579 --> 00:28:11.460
Like, so he's got he's got this.

448
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:12.180
Oh, don't go there.

449
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.619
There's been one plan.

450
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.519
I mean, it's so stupid.

451
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:20.640
Look, you know, he creates this event with Event one, but just in case that doesn't work.

452
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:28.859
He's already got Adric to send them to Castra Valver and put all that stuff in the, so he's already anticipating the event one thing's not going to work.

453
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:30.480
And he's got his backup plan.

454
00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:31.380
Then he goes back in time.

455
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.019
You know, he creates all these people somehow.

456
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.799
Like, I don't know how I know very little about telebiogenes.

457
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:38.579
Hooray!

458
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:42.960
And, you know, then there's some kind of giant, like, what's he meant to do?

459
00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:46.319
Like, is the doctor to be trapped in castra valver while it shrinks?

460
00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:49.019
Is he just going to hit him with a stick when he finds him there?

461
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:50.279
Like what's going on?

462
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:53.940
Can I make a suggestion in one of my usual continuity?

463
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.980
Explanation in inverted commas?

464
00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:58.079
Make it making stuff up is what it is.

465
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:02.700
So the master has a plan behind that plan that would have been enjoyed to spring.

466
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.880
So let's just assume that he just has Castrovalva.

467
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:22.740
He's just invented this sort of European sunny villa on top of a hill where the men run around in dresses, and he suddenly got Matthew Waterhouse in pyjamas, and his 1st thought is to take him to this little Spanish style villa where the men run around in dresses and tie him to a wall.

468
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:27.059
I think the fact that the doctor escapes and can just be lured there.

469
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:27.960
That's just a bonus.

470
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:30.660
This was the master's holiday.

471
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.440
It's a great time to think about this.

472
00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:35.700
I actually just came up with it.

473
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:36.779
I think it works.

474
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.240
I agree completely with that.

475
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:45.960
As he grips his remote with one hand and his cherry picker with the other and up he rises to meet Adric.

476
00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:47.400
The hard on power line.

477
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:48.599
Let me filter the touch.

478
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:50.279
I agree with you, Nathan.

479
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.779
He's escaped from Trark, and then he's gone off to, what's that planet?

480
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:56.880
Logopolis with the, what were they doing?

481
00:29:56.940 --> 00:29:57.480
What was their thing?

482
00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:59.039
The block transfer computation?

483
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.839
Is he using block transfer computation?

484
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:06.059
through Edric's computations in the Star Wars to create this trap within a trap within a trap?

485
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:12.539
But which makes no actual... no So he, but he goes back, he says later that he's going to go back in time and created.

486
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:13.980
It's clearly his 2nd plan.

487
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:17.279
But, I mean, why doesn't he just poison the doctor's drink, you know, or something?

488
00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:19.980
Like the doctor has this drink. you know, like, what the hell is going on?

489
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:22.380
Well, Russell had to reckon the whole thing, didn't he?

490
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.559
He had drums in his head and he's crazy.

491
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:29.700
Well, he's standing around in a very shortened pair of Bernard Horsfall's pyjamas.

492
00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:34.559
Having his pigskin struck repeatedly.

493
00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:39.359
I love the bit where the cast of albums tear off his pyjamas at the end.

494
00:30:39.420 --> 00:30:42.180
Oh, I was referring to his drum in my brain.

495
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:43.920
But yes.

496
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.440
See, I told you, it's a gay holiday.

497
00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:47.579
Hello?

498
00:30:47.579 --> 00:30:48.420
Pride Grand Canaria.

499
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:48.720
Sorry.

500
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:58.619
I mean, wait, it's so easy to pick the things that we don't like, but did you get that sense of, I don't want to say sense of suspension, but I expect I'll get a...

501
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:04.440
But there's that sense of dread within the realm of a child's dream.

502
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:18.960
So the dread is always illogical and unspoken, and it's a very dream-like threat when you've got the, the castor of elements hunting with what looks like upturned bird bars on their heads. for no good reason, revealing, but that's what dream fear does.

503
00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:22.859
There is no logical sequence. to the ostensible thread.

504
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.099
And I think that that actually just lends to this.

505
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.240
I was taken back to being pre-teenage when I was watching this.

506
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:32.579
It felt like being a small child again.

507
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.519
Now, it's quite a clever thing for Fiona coming to have achieved.

508
00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:39.900
I just think it's the wrong story for the 1st story. the 1st story, really?

509
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:40.500
That's all.

510
00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:46.140
I think that he needs to prove to the audience that he is capable of facing up to something.

511
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:56.220
I think that the regeneration trauma thing is always a bad idea and it means that we don't get to see what he's going to be like.

512
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:57.480
And there's just no threat.

513
00:31:57.539 --> 00:31:58.380
He doesn't do anything.

514
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:00.059
He doesn't resolve the situation.

515
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.940
And I just think it's a massive misfire.

516
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:09.420
I think that you need something giant and epic, like, power of the Daleks or all.

517
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:10.920
We've seen that before and we've done that.

518
00:32:10.980 --> 00:32:17.160
I would counter with that this is perhaps one of the greatest literary conceit stories of Doctor Who of all time.

519
00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:19.319
It is actually that good.

520
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:29.460
It's, if you look at it, in the way that we always do, in the way that many, you know, many of the, of our friends do, as this is being not just a TV episode, something inside.

521
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.880
It's one of the 1st times the Doctor Who does magic realism.

522
00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:44.940
This is actually a Jorge Louis Borges story in such as the circular ruins in labyrinths, and that story starts with, in the dream of the man who was dreaming the dreamt man awoke.

523
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:53.339
Now, the idea of wheels within wheels, with ideas and thoughts, within thoughts, and the person within a person within a person is exactly what we're seeing.

524
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:54.299
This is a hatching.

525
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:55.440
This is a chrysalis doctor.

526
00:32:55.500 --> 00:32:55.980
We saw him.

527
00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:57.180
He was covered in cobwebs.

528
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:06.660
And that conceit of this butterfly like doctoral, gossenery and wistful, with a very difficult birth, is a really beautiful thing.

529
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.180
There are so many literary trumps in this.

530
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:13.019
Couldn't you convey that idea in a story that was actually entertaining?

531
00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:14.039
I don't know what to watch.

532
00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:15.779
But I don't know that it doesn't do that.

533
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.380
My watching back in 1982 was that I felt that.

534
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.660
And my friends felt the same way.

535
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:32.940
So I'm sure, I'm sure that if you look at this, and again, Doctor Who has to be seen on several levels, because we just look at it as a bland TV show, we were there with all the other fans who say, oh, I can't, oh, so many casual viewers.

536
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.220
You say, well, I don't really think I like Doctor Who.

537
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:37.019
I haven't looked at it, have you?

538
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:40.559
I'm actually with Richard on this one. literally.

539
00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:46.019
My only disappointment in the story is the doctor's lack of involvement in the resolution.

540
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:51.660
Now, he does, in a way, inspire Shardavan, but Shardavan already have his suspicions.

541
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:57.240
That being said, Charaman sacrifices, a beautiful moment with a beautiful death line.

542
00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.640
You made this man of evil, but we are free.

543
00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:05.099
Yeah, but then he's got a big sort of skirty ass flying through the air into the bing.

544
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:06.180
It's all undermined.

545
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.679
I believe that's Derek Ware doing that stuff.

546
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:11.340
It is too.

547
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:11.760
Yeah.

548
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.019
But yeah, that is literally my only problem with this story.

549
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:17.159
What about the master?

550
00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:19.440
No, no, I think he's fine.

551
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:24.840
You know, I think the scheme's a bit bonkers, but I can look past that. increasingly Baroque and stupid.

552
00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:27.179
It's a great, we're not repeating it.

553
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.320
We're not repeating episode titles.

554
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:29.519
Stop trying to make it happen.

555
00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:34.800
I like the intent and I get what you're saying about the themes and the ideas behind it.

556
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:39.000
I personally think it now looks quite cheap.

557
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:40.199
The square is very small.

558
00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:53.940
I wanted to see inside the library and that sort of thing. and I feel that it runs out of story in Castroval, but I actually like these other characters and I wanted to find out more about them. and that they're just there for a moment or two.

559
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:58.139
You know, they, Fiona's trying to do that shot. you know, with all the mirrors and that sort of thing.

560
00:34:58.199 --> 00:34:59.340
It doesn't work at all.

561
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:00.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

562
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.519
I do love who says that wretched square again?

563
00:35:02.579 --> 00:35:03.360
Is that a Tegan line?

564
00:35:03.420 --> 00:35:04.500
That's like a Tegan one.

565
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.380
That works really well when they're running down the stairs into the square.

566
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:08.579
There's no special effects.

567
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:10.139
It's just, you know, anything.

568
00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:11.460
Yeah, I drive like it's really well.

569
00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:13.380
It looks terrible.

570
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.239
It should be in our imagination.

571
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:19.920
I like it, you know, I give it a seven, 7.5 , but I don't love it.

572
00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:21.179
Right?

573
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.480
And I guess that's a line that I'm going to keep on repeating.

574
00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:28.320
Well, I don't know what's going to be, you know, I don't think you're going to be saying it.

575
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:29.159
Not about season 20.

576
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:30.599
No, I don't like it.

577
00:35:30.659 --> 00:35:32.099
I just don't like it.

578
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:42.360
And of course, Pete then puts this celery on, which apparently is not real. virtual salary and he replaces it with more virtual salary and enlightenment.

579
00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.440
That's why it never wilts.

580
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:45.900
He's holding it together with block transfer computation.

581
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:48.599
Just doing a few scenes in his off moments.

582
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:49.800
Keep your celery go.

583
00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:51.900
You know, like the Sonic screwdriver in Day of the Doctor.

584
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:56.219
So can I just say the audiobook of this is really good?

585
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:57.420
Who reads that?

586
00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.099
So it's read by Pete.

587
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:10.380
So Bidmead himself reads, as you might have guessed, Bidmead himself reads Legopolis, and you kind of think that would be really terrible, except he's got a great voice, so it sounds really good.

588
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:14.460
But they get paid to read Castro Valver, and Castro Valver is very good.

589
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:22.199
You would expect from Bidmead that it's a bit self-important and wordy and a little bit pedantic, but it is really quite good.

590
00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:28.920
And Pete does the most note perfect for the anly impersonation.

591
00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.400
It's absolutely incredible you've got to listen to it.

592
00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:33.420
He does Tegan.

593
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:35.219
Well, we can, yes.

594
00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:39.239
But he's the alien is just so funny.

595
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:43.980
And it's hard to imagine that he wasn't doing hilarious comedy impersonations.

596
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.440
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

597
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.059
I'm sure there was quite a bit of that.

598
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:49.559
How did they get on?

599
00:36:49.619 --> 00:36:54.599
Like, I've never heard anything about how Pete got on with Anthony and Anthony got on with the most of the cars.

600
00:36:54.719 --> 00:37:05.699
Apparently Amy was quite reserved and very cool and private, but then he had a very dark sense of humour, and that's why, again, why JNT said he hired him after working with him on the Palaces.

601
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.639
It's the Colin Baker's syndrome of making people laugh.

602
00:37:08.699 --> 00:37:16.500
But I think he he, because he was quite sensitive and fragile in that way, and he wasn't out, at least as far as I know, is not publicly.

603
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:18.539
So they were, what do you remember?

604
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:28.920
Um, I have heard that he and Pete had a good professional relationship, but weren't great friends outside of it.

605
00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:32.219
As I understand it, he and Colin got on very well.

606
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.679
And he and Sylvester got on okay as well.

607
00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:41.880
So yeah, I mean, I think I think with Pete and Anthony, it was just A, it was a, it was a professional relationship.

608
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:46.860
And I would say he works better with Peter than he does with Colin, in my opinion.

609
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:49.619
As for Sylvester, we'll discuss that when we get there.

610
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:53.340
I think it's a terrible misconception of what the character should be.

611
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:56.400
I think I think only is struggling with that as well.

612
00:37:56.460 --> 00:38:00.360
So you've got to build the master needs to be the doctor's opposite.

613
00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:02.340
He's a doctor, isn't he?

614
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.440
Well, we've said this before.

615
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:07.800
He's got to be he's got to threaten to be more interesting than the doctor.

616
00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:09.719
He's got to threaten to be the star of the show.

617
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.239
And that's what sound of drums does really well.

618
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:14.820
I think Claws of Axos does that really well.

619
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.559
Sea devils, yeah, beautifully.

620
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:22.920
But in all of those too, like, you know, the master is the prime minister, or he's whatever, the vicar or whatever.

621
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:31.320
Whereas here, and in for the next few stories, he just plays dress up. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. with not terribly interesting characters, you know.

622
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:32.400
But lovely frogs.

623
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:33.300
Lovely frogs.

624
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:41.579
But, I mean, so the conception of the master, he's just a fool in a beard who comes up with overly complicated plants is not the doctor's opposite.

625
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:49.079
And it's sort of terrible moral shorthand because he doesn't need any motivation or anything interesting going on.

626
00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:51.420
Yeah, and here it's just going to be evil.

627
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:58.199
And here at the end, you know, he's trapped inside his own creation, like, you know, so that he's got to escape from.

628
00:38:58.260 --> 00:38:59.039
He'll be fine.

629
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:02.579
You know, they can burn him up before our very eyes and he'll be fine.

630
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.199
I mean, it's stupid.

631
00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:10.440
And I think that undermines the character that he's always put in these situations in the end that he's got to escape from for the next time.

632
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:17.099
Yeah, not only that, but we've now had 2 stories running where his objective is to kill the doctor.

633
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:18.300
Yeah.

634
00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:23.099
You know, in Lagopolis, he also wanted to hold the universe to ransom, but he wanted to embarrass the doctor while he did that.

635
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:28.679
And it's like, yeah, with the Delgado master, embarrassing or killing the doctor was always just a side effect.

636
00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:29.880
It was a side plan.

637
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:31.920
It was, I'll go after the doctor if he goes after me.

638
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:35.099
But in an assassin, he just wants to kill the doctor, doesn't he?

639
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.860
Yeah, so I suppose that's really where it starts.

640
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:43.380
I think from that moment where Robert Holmes redefines the character is this one that's just got meglomania going after the doctor.

641
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:45.179
There's a big problem.

642
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:45.719
Yeah.

643
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:46.260
Yeah.

644
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:53.159
One of my favourite moments is what she is when he's drawing on the blackboard and he realises that the house is in 4 points.

645
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:54.840
That blew me away at four.

646
00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:56.099
It is good, and it's great.

647
00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:57.960
That's what I mean by literary conceit.

648
00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:01.559
I mean, that is the story inside the, in the, and getting into these people's heads.

649
00:40:01.619 --> 00:40:03.360
It's the growth of realisation.

650
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:06.960
It's coming, this story is about the coming of consciousness.

651
00:40:07.019 --> 00:40:09.539
This is the chrysalis becoming the man.

652
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:20.400
And just as these Ativars of people are discovering humanity and that even a story character can have moral integrity is a beautiful thing.

653
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:23.280
Yeah, that's what I love about Chardonn's end.

654
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:23.639
Yeah.

655
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:26.099
In those moments, you know, I think are great.

656
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:31.139
And I think this era, there are so many, in so many episodes, there's a moment that I really love.

657
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:32.159
Yes, yes.

658
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:34.679
And then there's like dregs you've got to get through.

659
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:36.719
And then there's a moment That's like life, isn't it?

660
00:40:54.780 --> 00:41:03.179
Well, dear listeners, as the city folds up into paper behind us, we rock it off into space to try and get Tegan back for her flight in time at Heath Row.

661
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:04.860
That was in 10 seconds or less.

662
00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:13.980
Don't forget to check out our website at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

663
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:17.519
We do also have our YouTube series now, Doctor Who in 10 seconds.

664
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:18.539
Thank you, Richard.

665
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:28.619
And over on Bondfinger, we've recently released our commentary for The Man with the Golden Gun and all Bond films preceding that as well.

666
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:29.760
So do check that out.

667
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:32.340
We haven't recorded it yet, but it's bound to be terrible.

668
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:38.639
Until next week, May, none of you get drunk before you have to film them, throw up behind a tree.

669
00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:40.320
Thank you very much for listening a good night.

670
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:41.280
Good night.

671
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:42.420
See you soon.

672
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:43.380
Heave home.

673
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:53.159
That was Flight Joy Entirety with Todd Beelby, Nate for Bodily, Brenda Jones, Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

674
00:41:53.219 --> 00:41:58.440
This episode, I know very little about telebiogenesis, was recorded on the 15th of May 2016.

675
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.380
The next episode will be released on the 19th of June.

676
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:11.460
If you would enjoy a holiday, strap to a wall on a small planet of the Finalogs series, just send a stamped, self addressed envelope to Neil Toyne, Leon Tyne, or James Stoker.

677
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.860
Okay, that's good.

678
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:18.539
Brilliant comedy outro.

679
00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:19.739
Uh, okay.

680
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:20.880
So...

681
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.539
This podcast.

682
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:27.719
So when's this episode going out?