WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:15:02

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety

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the only Doctor Who podcast, which provides you with something

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like a neutral environment, an isolated space cut off from the

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rest of the universe, especially if you're trying to get a drink

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past 3 a.m. I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm the last remnants of the Hadron Collider for

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this episode.

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Are you sure you haven't got a typo there, Richard?

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Because we're caught in a web and we can't get out.

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It's Castra Valva.

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Oh, Nathan, you've been looking forward to this so much.

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It's really terrible.

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Like, I haven't really been looking forward to the 80s, which is

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why the most recent Doctor Who story I've seen is Castra Valver.

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I haven't been looking ahead.

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I have to steal myself to get to Fort to Doomsday.

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And, you know, I've had a pretty high opinion of Crispidmead.

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I think, you know, Lagopolis while sort of flawed and plotless is

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a great culmination of a really great season. bloodless.

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It's my life.

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But this is the 1st story of a new doctor.

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It's really important and it's the 1st new doctor for 7 years.

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It's crucial that this comes off. he just comes up with something

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flawed and plotless again.

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Where's Project 4G when you need it?

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I don't know what that is.

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Brendan.

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Oh, well, I was just going to say.

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Flanagan and McCulloch, who wrote Megalos last year.

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And underneath the Archers.

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Oh no, that's Flanagan and Alan.

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We're commissioned to write the 5th doctor's debut story. initially

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known as Project 4G, later Project Zita Sigma.

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And it was gripping already, isn't it?

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It was going to be a parable for the Cold War.

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It was going to be 2 worlds on the brink of nuclear MAD, nuclear

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short destruction.

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Just thinking back to how much Todd enjoyed the Armageddon fact.

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Oh dear god, no.

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So essentially it was going to be the Armageddon factor, but with

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the master instead of the marshal.

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And for whatever reason, the script was deemed unacceptable.

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You deemed it unacceptable.

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I believe it was actually Anthony Root.

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Oh, one of the few good things he probably did.

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Well, come back to him later.

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Now, the thing is, they did give it as much chance as possible

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because when the scripts for Project Z to Sigma ran into trouble

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that's when we had this creative choice switcher may have puzzled

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some hint, dear listener, to record the 1st 5th Doctor Stories out

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of order.

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And indeed, they were recorded 2341.

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So that was always the intention, even when this was a project

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Zita sigma.

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But yeah, Project Zita Sigma fell by the wayside, and so

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Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, roughly refreshed by now from his

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duty as a script editor. was asked to come up with another story.

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Wow, I always thought it was Project Zita Minor.

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So I've lived for 30 years going, oh, they're going to go back

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there.

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Salamar, you wanted it for Shinsky.

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I think we need to say, though, that this is by the greatest

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director of all time, Fiona Cumming.

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And she also worked on the Highlanders and the Mutants.

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So there's really nothing not to love about newscoming.

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Well I don't think she's that good.

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No, there are more than 2 shots that I think are pretty good.

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I really like the shot where Tegan is looking through the open

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door of the ambulance of the Keys.

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I think that's really terrifically fun.

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There is some beautiful...

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You know, I've watched a few of hers now and Fiona, and I think

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she's got the intent.

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She wants to give you the feel, but I don't always think that it

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pulls off on Doctor Who's budget, you know?

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Certainly, what happens in season 19 is a giant disappointment, I

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think.

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And part of it is that it's just visually not as interesting as

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season 18 had been.

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And it's not just that it's, you know, now we're a year into it.

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Season 19 is the same old look.

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I actually think the look gets worse that it just gets more

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pedestrian and less inventive this season.

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And I think the same thing happens with the scripts.

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I think, you know, Bidmeat had been telling a continuous story

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ever since full circle and had done a great job of it.

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Now, no one really knows what direction we're heading in or what

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we're doing.

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And so, again, I think the quality falls off.

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But here it is kind of inexcusable, that the story faps around for

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something like 2 episodes, just like Lagopolis did, without really

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giving us a threat.

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I mean, you've got the master, but he's terrible, instantly, he's

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jumped the shard.

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Well, yeah, the master is always that point of Noll field.

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I think other people called it Brisbane, didn't they?

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But hearing all of these stories.

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But the 1st 2 or 3 episodes I really loved, and I love the visual

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styling, and I love the direction, and I love the score, and I

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love that for once, we don't go to another planet or someone

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else's idea of a science fiction story.

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We go inside a picture book.

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This is probably the greatest and most beautiful thing Doctor Who

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has done since the mind roller, but it takes children into a

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book.

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In this case, Graham McDonald's wall panelling of MCS's drawings.

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But, you know, cash for valve, there is actually one of his

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drawings.

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I was so excited as a boy that this was taking me into Edwardian

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fantasy in the way that Arthur Rackham's drawings.

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There's a whole period of beautiful etchings done by English

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artists of children's books, such as the I Nesbit ones.

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And it's parallel really nicely in the styling with Esher.

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And this honestly just feels like we're inside a lovely picture

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book until they press the Quantil button.

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I think you mean George McDonald rather than BBC head of cereals

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Graham McDonald.

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Did I say grand?

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No, no, Graham McDonald's?

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Head of cereals, Graham McDonald. had an issue of print on his, and

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apparently...

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And Bidmead said it was him who saw it and Nathan Turner says it

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was I who saw it.

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It was Nathan Turner Woods.

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Plus, plus Bidmead says that the reason he based a whole story

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around Asia Prince is.

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Apparently John Nathan Turner would walk out of meetings with

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Graham McDonald saying, oh God, that picture makes my eyes hurt.

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I really hate it.

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So bit me went, right.

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I'm gonna write you a story about this.

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Can I defend the 1st 2 episodes?

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Please, please do.

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You're amongst friends.

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Because I really enjoy those.

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And maybe it's my memory as a child.

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This was when I constantly watched as a child.

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But as an adult, something I really appreciated about it. something

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we talked about 2 weeks ago.

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I say 2 weeks ago, hopeful that I haven't taken another week off

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editing, dear listeners.

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But something we said 2 weeks ago is, you know, we've got so many

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characters they don't get a chance to shine with Matthew

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Waterhouse in Anthony Amy's Dungeon and Peter Davis and Comatose.

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The 1st 2 episodes are all about Tegan and Nissa and they're

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solving problems and they're being proactive.

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But also, what's very interesting is it presents the 2 mentalities

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of the characters.

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Like when Nissa, at the beginning of episode 2, says, all we can

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do is close the scanner, which I think is a very powerful moment.

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But it's actually Tegan that says, well, no, there's more we can

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do.

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Maybe we can fly the thing.

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I'm not saying it's perfect by any means, but it gives us a much

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better idea of these 2 characters than in Legopolis.

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And that may also be a result of recording it right in the middle

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of the season when they already have a grip on their characters.

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But I quite like that we have the 2 female leads leading the show

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while the 2 male leads are incapacitated.

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I was wondering whether it passed the Bechdel test, but I think

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they're talking about the doctor so much that probably doesn't.

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That's true.

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No, I agree with you.

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I do like the fact that they're given, Tegan, we don't really know

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you know, we're only beginning to find out about her.

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And it's a nice opportunity for them to take the lead.

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You know, Adric is effectively sidelined.

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And I think that's part of the problem with your season is having

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the 3 companions.

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What do you do with them?

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And Adrik does really well when he's sidelined.

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He uses a bot device here and it does kind of work.

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He does come into his own in this episode.

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Yeah you can tell.

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The blue box boy, the Matthew Waterhouse autobiography suggests

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that anyone who's seen Castro Valver will know whether Matthew

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himself dresses to the left or the right. dresses away from the

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window.

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What do you think of Janet's performance?

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There's nowhere to go after that.

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Janet.

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Yes, Janet.

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I love Janet.

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It's really interesting because I think everything's been recorded

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out of order with 4 to Doomsday, then visitation, Kinder, and then

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this.

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And I think her performances in those other 3 are very unsubtle.

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This is the 1st time I think she gets a handle on light and shade

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in the character. don't think it's perfect.

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I think in the latter episodes.

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Unfortunately, Tegan is hysterical over losing the 0 cabinet every

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5 seconds and, you know, goes into her bolshy sort of mode that

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she does do.

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But she's better in this.

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This is the 1st time that I feel that she's improving.

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Yeah, yeah, she will be horrible next week.

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There is that big. week after every week after that.

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There's a bit when they're climbing up to Castra Valver and she's

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tired and the 2 of them are talking and she's really raining it in

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and giving a sort of subtle performance.

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Well, and that's quite surprising because Fiona Cumming really had

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to find those shots because Janet Fielding, I don't know about now

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but then was absolutely terrified of heights, even being 5 or 6

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feet off the ground.

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She was finding really difficult.

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So Fiona Cumming sort of says that, you know, directing it, I had

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to go for very low angles, but Janet gives a great performance

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despite the fact she was terrified of what we were doing.

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I adored Janet as a kid.

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I really did.

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And me too, my mother too, didn't she?

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I did, but now having watched this season, I find the 1st 4

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stories very difficult.

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It's not until she's given alcohol in...

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She's like, she's funny and from that point forward.

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That's true From that point forward, I enjoy her performance

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because she manages to find the moments to pick when she can be a

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bit more caddy a bit more narky, you know?

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Tegan's written very one note, but she manages to find that light

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and shape.

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Here, it's the transition story because it's the 4th one

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recorded.

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And I think there are good moments and there's sort of terrible

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children's TV overacting, really.

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She is 2 personalities in search of an author, isn't she?

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For this.

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And she gets Anthony Root, and Eric Saywood.

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Yeah, that's wonderful.

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What a dynamic, do I?

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But the girl's struggling along in that. isn't it interesting that

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we get an actual proper, what your test that Nathan, that you

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quote?

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It makes a test of 2 women talking to each other about something

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other than a man almost happens here, although they tend to be

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talking about the doctor a lot, don't they?

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They do do the hydrogen in rush conversation and that kind of

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thing.

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And the wonderful index file conversation and the nature of

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recursion.

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You still quote that. a beautiful line.

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It feels like Douglas Adams has just popped his head in.

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As Patrick Troughton does in episode three.

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Did you know that?

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Pat Trouton was on the set standing in for Peter in that scene

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where, because he just came to visit and say hello on the day, when

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he when the doctor gets his marbles back.

248
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:27.299
And you know who the child is who teaches Peter to count?

249
00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.159
It's Carolyn John's niece.

250
00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:30.000
Oh, really?

251
00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:30.960
Whisker John.

252
00:12:31.019 --> 00:12:32.759
We own...

253
00:12:32.820 --> 00:12:34.559
That's the noise the curtains make.

254
00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:39.480
This is the story that really brings together the new era.

255
00:12:39.539 --> 00:12:42.899
And as a boy, I just loved it, but I did love it mostly for them

256
00:12:42.960 --> 00:12:43.799
can we say meta?

257
00:12:43.799 --> 00:12:44.820
because it's not a troll.

258
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:46.139
Yes.

259
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:48.360
The fact that we're inside a children's storybook.

260
00:12:48.419 --> 00:12:51.960
And there are a few stories in this season that actually get what

261
00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:53.039
Peter's doctor is about.

262
00:12:53.100 --> 00:12:56.159
Do you remember how he'd be playing the character and it wasn't

263
00:12:56.159 --> 00:12:57.179
like Tristan but Brave.

264
00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:01.320
And that actually came from it, a child riding into Blue Peter

265
00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.299
when they were saying, what will the new doctor be like?

266
00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.240
Because like you were just saying, it's 7 years since we've seen a

267
00:13:06.240 --> 00:13:06.480
face.

268
00:13:06.539 --> 00:13:10.379
We did just have the 4 faces of Doctor Who.

269
00:13:11.340 --> 00:13:11.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

270
00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:13.799
Wanted to show an episode of All Creatures Great.

271
00:13:13.860 --> 00:13:17.580
No, I think that...

272
00:13:17.580 --> 00:13:18.840
If you don't blink at the end.

273
00:13:19.919 --> 00:13:23.519
I actually like all the stuff inside the TARDIS quite a lot.

274
00:13:23.580 --> 00:13:25.259
It looks beautiful, doesn't it?

275
00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:26.639
The 1st time.

276
00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:28.080
Well, what as a kid it did.

277
00:13:28.139 --> 00:13:30.960
Now I think, oh, they're reusing that and that's it.

278
00:13:31.019 --> 00:13:32.879
That's the end of the studio there.

279
00:13:32.940 --> 00:13:36.960
It's a little bit cheaper, but I think it's only the leisure

280
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.720
height that we haven't seen the TARDIS interior, is it?

281
00:13:39.779 --> 00:13:41.340
In the J and T era.

282
00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:44.159
And I think there's very few stories where we don't actually see

283
00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.279
the tidest interior after, you know, the early 70s where you never

284
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:47.759
see it at all.

285
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:48.720
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

286
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.539
Now it's, we're going to see it.

287
00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:53.879
He's domesticating the crew, isn't he?

288
00:13:53.940 --> 00:13:57.840
Yeah, and it will it will become unnecessarily fetishized, if you

289
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:01.080
like, that we have to see the inside of the TARDIS to get the

290
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.139
story going rather than the ship just lands, which we will see

291
00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:07.259
much later in the series, thanks to Andrew Cartmel, but we're

292
00:14:07.259 --> 00:14:08.159
getting way ahead of ourselves.

293
00:14:08.220 --> 00:14:10.799
You know, you get born, yes, is he?

294
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:14.639
Later on, it kind of feels like it gets to the point where they go

295
00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:16.019
oh, well, we have to have a Tana scene.

296
00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:17.940
Oh, well, the Tata scene will have to be 2 minutes long then.

297
00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.340
Oh, but we can't we don't have any plot information yet.

298
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.500
Oh, we'll just have everyone bitching at each other in front

299
00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:23.279
inside the time.

300
00:14:23.340 --> 00:14:27.240
It's like trying to write season one of Next Generation's trick

301
00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:27.659
isn't it?

302
00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:28.259
Yes.

303
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.019
Everyone needs everyone needs their 30 seconds of fame.

304
00:14:31.080 --> 00:14:32.700
I do like P-shake.

305
00:14:32.700 --> 00:14:33.539
Yeah, I like it.

306
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:34.259
I like him in this a lot.

307
00:14:34.620 --> 00:14:37.860
I like him wandering around the TARDIS and the doctor talking

308
00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:39.059
about past companions.

309
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:43.620
I think the whole finding the cricketing thing is very twee, I

310
00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:44.220
hate the costume.

311
00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:45.720
They look awful.

312
00:14:45.779 --> 00:14:50.100
And I really hate the hat, you know, every time every time he puts

313
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:52.559
the hat on in any of the stories, it's like, just ditch the hat.

314
00:14:52.620 --> 00:14:53.220
Ditch the hair.

315
00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:53.879
I just...

316
00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:58.320
He is very bald for a 29-year-old, but he has terrible hair.

317
00:14:59.100 --> 00:15:01.980
Richard just looks straight at me.

318
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.759
I'm not 29 anymore, but I did have this one.

319
00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:07.440
This little hair when I was 29.

320
00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:09.299
Thanks for pointing it out, mate.

321
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:12.419
And they're actually quite, really impressed by Peter Davidson.

322
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:17.100
I commented in the past couple of podcasts how this is just the

323
00:15:17.100 --> 00:15:20.399
dregs era for me and I really hated him as the doctor.

324
00:15:20.460 --> 00:15:24.299
But the one thing watching him is an energy in these 1st 4 stories

325
00:15:24.299 --> 00:15:27.299
and including this, that I really like about, yeah, I just feel

326
00:15:27.299 --> 00:15:28.379
like he's trying so hard.

327
00:15:28.379 --> 00:15:32.159
Later in the season, I think Denny suddenly decides to give up

328
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:33.299
acting for a year and a half .

329
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:38.039
But I do think that he's in there really finding his way or

330
00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:38.820
whatever.

331
00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:40.919
I just think this could have been recorded 1st and he would have

332
00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:41.220
been fine.

333
00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:45.659
I just think that no one knows what he's supposed to be doing, and

334
00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.779
it's so crucial to establish that in this 1st story.

335
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:52.500
So he's got post-regeneration, whatever.

336
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:53.519
Stress disorder.

337
00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:56.220
Yeah, and he has that for a month.

338
00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:58.139
You know, like we've got 4 episodes.

339
00:15:58.740 --> 00:15:59.519
I think it's Tegan.

340
00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:01.379
I think they're just sinking with each other.

341
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.659
To be fair, he has it for 9 days.

342
00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:06.720
Because of course we've moved away from Saturday nights now.

343
00:16:06.779 --> 00:16:09.240
We now have the broadcast Monday, Tuesday.

344
00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:10.919
I have to remember that in future.

345
00:16:10.980 --> 00:16:13.320
You said Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Wednesday, this season?

346
00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:14.940
It varied.

347
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.299
So I believe I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am Todd.

348
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.039
Monday, Tuesday.

349
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:20.820
Started Monday.

350
00:16:20.820 --> 00:16:22.080
I've got it Monday, Tuesday.

351
00:16:22.139 --> 00:16:25.259
I believe I do believe in Wales in some areas it was Monday

352
00:16:25.259 --> 00:16:25.559
Wednesday.

353
00:16:25.620 --> 00:16:27.600
I believe in Wales, but I've never been anywhere.

354
00:16:27.659 --> 00:16:29.340
So you are correct.

355
00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:30.840
It is it is back to back.

356
00:16:30.899 --> 00:16:31.500
Yeah.

357
00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.899
I think next season might they might go to Monday, Wednesday.

358
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.679
Now, this is a good point to ask what we all thought about that.

359
00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:39.360
It didn't really affect us in Australia.

360
00:16:39.419 --> 00:16:44.100
We saw this right after episode 4 of Legopolis. less than 24 hours

361
00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:44.340
later.

362
00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:46.740
And I think hearing was still weekly as well.

363
00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:47.220
It was.

364
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:49.440
It was a Tuesday, Wednesday night, I have it etched on my little

365
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:52.679
frontal lobes at the time running home from school to see it.

366
00:16:52.740 --> 00:16:56.759
But this has been argued that, you know, Saturday afternoon tea

367
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:00.899
time, sacrosanct for Dr. Basil Brush, and the generation game

368
00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:03.480
which at one point, that Bruce Forsyte thing, you know, the man

369
00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.799
whose dual could open tin can, just like swiping, that was seen by

370
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:09.960
a 3rd of the entire British population.

371
00:17:10.019 --> 00:17:12.180
But the ratings, you're the ratings, man.

372
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:15.119
Well, of course, I spoke about last season being an absolute, like

373
00:17:15.119 --> 00:17:18.119
Maya of desolation.

374
00:17:18.180 --> 00:17:22.740
So straight away, 9100000 viewers tuned into episode one.

375
00:17:22.799 --> 00:17:25.740
Like, that's higher than everything last season. you know, the

376
00:17:25.740 --> 00:17:28.980
highest rating last season, and it was 8.3. and I mentioned like

377
00:17:28.980 --> 00:17:31.259
you know, very few percent, you've got about 7 million.

378
00:17:31.319 --> 00:17:35.279
So there's immediate effect, and it charts at 54, and the 2nd

379
00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.640
episode's down a bit, but the last 2 episodes, 10.2 and 10.4.

380
00:17:38.819 --> 00:17:41.880
That's pretty cool. and they're both in the top top 50.

381
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.359
Dr. Zendeen in the top 50s since season 17.

382
00:17:45.539 --> 00:17:49.619
And 10.4 is the highest rated John Nathan Turner episode.

383
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:50.579
Wow.

384
00:17:51.180 --> 00:17:52.980
So obviously it was a good move.

385
00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:56.400
And it was actually directly linked to the poor ratings on

386
00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:56.819
Saturday night.

387
00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:00.839
That's right So, yeah, Graham McDonald and then David Reid, who

388
00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.559
replaced him around this time, were able to look at season 18 and

389
00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:06.779
say, look, this is obviously quality television.

390
00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.059
It's not that it's bad that people aren't watching.

391
00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:10.319
Oh, they did say that.

392
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:11.039
Did they?

393
00:18:11.099 --> 00:18:12.599
Obviously.

394
00:18:12.599 --> 00:18:14.339
They didn't they didn't watch make loss.

395
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.279
But, you know, they were able to they were able to look it and go

396
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:20.220
you know, it's not the program that's at fault. lets try it in a

397
00:18:20.220 --> 00:18:20.579
different time.

398
00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:21.359
And look what happens.

399
00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.660
Well, actually, like this season, half the episodes this season

400
00:18:24.660 --> 00:18:26.819
are inside the top 15, right?

401
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.700
And there's only 3 that place outside the top 70, as opposed to

402
00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:31.920
last year, where only 3 got in the top 70.

403
00:18:32.099 --> 00:18:34.799
So there's this big shift and the average rating for the season is

404
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:40.380
9000000 and there's a lot of episodes touching that 9.5 to 10

405
00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:40.740
million.

406
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:43.079
Do you know where the season is by the end?

407
00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:45.660
Yes, I do.

408
00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:50.279
The last episode of the season is the lowest rated episode of the

409
00:18:50.279 --> 00:18:51.359
season at 8.one.

410
00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.220
See, that's not so bad, is it?

411
00:18:53.339 --> 00:18:57.480
Yeah, that, you know, that's that's still really amazing, quite

412
00:18:57.480 --> 00:18:57.900
frankly.

413
00:18:57.960 --> 00:18:59.160
Especially...

414
00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.180
Time flight episode four.

415
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:02.819
Yeah, you know, were they not watching the previous three?

416
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:07.799
But, you know, episode one of Time Flight gets 10000000 and 26th

417
00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:10.680
which is the highest placed John Nathan Turner episode.

418
00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.079
Oh, because that's because they're tuning in. what they wanted to

419
00:19:13.079 --> 00:19:14.279
see what happened next.

420
00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:16.680
And they squander they squander that.

421
00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:17.519
I mean we'll get to that.

422
00:19:17.579 --> 00:19:20.759
But this whole season is like, you know, lots of episodes are like

423
00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.359
in the high 8s into the 9s and placing, you know, between 40 and

424
00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:24.839
60s.

425
00:19:24.900 --> 00:19:29.640
It's very much like what Doctor Who was in the middle Tom and John

426
00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:30.240
building.

427
00:19:30.299 --> 00:19:33.000
So it's sort of like there's an audience that's come back to see.

428
00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:35.279
And is Pete responsible for that?

429
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:36.900
Because Pete is a big name.

430
00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:38.519
Yeah, style vehicle.

431
00:19:38.579 --> 00:19:39.119
I think so.

432
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:42.599
I think a lot of the all creatures, great and small, and it's a

433
00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:44.339
piece of tuning in to see...

434
00:19:44.460 --> 00:19:46.740
And love for Lydia and sink or swim, were they on at the same time

435
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:47.039
right now?

436
00:19:47.099 --> 00:19:51.059
Well, sink or swim would proceed Doctor Who.

437
00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:51.779
Okay.

438
00:19:51.839 --> 00:19:55.019
But he was doing 2 other shows concurrently with this, which is

439
00:19:55.019 --> 00:19:56.819
why they were mucking things around in order as well.

440
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.539
Well, yeah, it's why he didn't debut until January 1982.

441
00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.019
It was specifically because the BBC didn't want more than one

442
00:20:04.019 --> 00:20:06.240
program featuring him broadcast at a time.

443
00:20:06.299 --> 00:20:09.420
Because they had to send Janet to New York to learn Sterner's love

444
00:20:09.420 --> 00:20:13.799
ski method so that her crankiness could be convincing. paid off.

445
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.279
Matthew went as well but he just got drunk.

446
00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:20.880
I know I'm hijacking the conversation a bit because, you know

447
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:22.440
I...

448
00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:26.519
I'm just doing this story for this season, but, you know, last

449
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.099
season we talked about how good it was, right?

450
00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:30.180
And how bad the ratings were.

451
00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:32.940
This season, the ratings have lifted for the whole season.

452
00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:34.619
And I don't think it's as good a season.

453
00:20:34.680 --> 00:20:38.579
And going into 20, you lose 2000000 viewers between 19 and 20.

454
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.480
And is that then a reaction to what goes on in the writing season

455
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.880
is the fact that we've got more viewers this season.

456
00:20:44.940 --> 00:20:48.119
Not only Pete, but the fact the writing last year and what was

457
00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:48.900
going on, the freshness.

458
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:49.799
I don't know.

459
00:20:49.859 --> 00:20:54.420
It does seem to be just a complete lack of interesting what the

460
00:20:54.420 --> 00:20:56.039
audience might find appealing.

461
00:20:56.099 --> 00:21:01.019
And so lots and lots of conversations about, You know, I don't

462
00:21:01.019 --> 00:21:02.579
think that recursion thing is all that great.

463
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.980
I think a lot of standing around in the TARDIS talking.

464
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.920
Like why is no one ever menaced by monsters?

465
00:21:07.980 --> 00:21:11.460
Why does the doctor, the new doctor not get a hero moment at all?

466
00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.380
He doesn't solve anything.

467
00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:15.420
You think about Chris invasion.

468
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:16.259
That's true.

469
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.200
Tenant gets, he's asleep for most of the thing.

470
00:21:19.259 --> 00:21:21.720
It is almost an homage to this story, isn't it?

471
00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:24.119
But then they actually put on the Wincy at pyjamas and make him do

472
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:24.299
something.

473
00:21:24.359 --> 00:21:28.319
So he defeats the Santas really early, so we get to see what he's

474
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:32.579
like before, you know, his final big hero moment, which is like

475
00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:34.799
nearly an hour, and it's really late.

476
00:21:34.980 --> 00:21:38.819
Whereas here, the doctor really doesn't do anything.

477
00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:41.579
He spends his entire time being carried around.

478
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:46.140
He does those inexplicable impersonations of Troughton and Hart

479
00:21:46.140 --> 00:21:48.180
and all better than Herndel.

480
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:48.960
Oh, they good.

481
00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.180
They're not bad, but why are we doing them?

482
00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:52.559
Who are we doing that for?

483
00:21:52.619 --> 00:21:57.480
And those references to Vicki and Joe. Like, that's so sort of

484
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:58.799
Doctor Who monster book.

485
00:21:58.859 --> 00:22:01.259
Because even they've been sitting there with his rotary file

486
00:22:01.259 --> 00:22:04.140
cracking them off that they say that one.

487
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:04.799
Say that one.

488
00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:10.680
Nathan, is it that problem that it's pandering to fans and the

489
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:13.619
general words tuning in, might be going, why are they talking

490
00:22:13.619 --> 00:22:14.160
about this?

491
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:17.579
Like Pat, in his 1st story, gets the Daleks.

492
00:22:17.700 --> 00:22:19.500
Pete gets architecture.

493
00:22:21.420 --> 00:22:25.559
Like, it's really, it's just normal.

494
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:29.099
Dutch tricky mushroom architecture. that can't exist.

495
00:22:29.160 --> 00:22:32.400
You've pinpointed something is that where are the monsters?

496
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.700
And it's something that I'm going...

497
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:39.240
How are you?

498
00:22:39.299 --> 00:22:41.099
She'll hit you with a Mara stick.

499
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:41.819
Sorry, go on tour.

500
00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:42.720
But where are the monsters?

501
00:22:42.779 --> 00:22:46.319
And it's going to be something that when I come back next season

502
00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:47.579
where are the monsters?

503
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:50.759
It's, I think it's the ergon next season, to be fair.

504
00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:52.980
Oh, dear listener.

505
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:54.299
And it looks good kill.

506
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:56.759
Insert ergon field threat.

507
00:22:56.819 --> 00:22:59.460
But there's no there's no threat.

508
00:22:59.519 --> 00:23:02.940
I mean, there's a threat, but there's no tangible. a conceptual

509
00:23:02.940 --> 00:23:03.240
threat.

510
00:23:03.299 --> 00:23:04.140
But that's a lovely thing.

511
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.140
Everything we've seen now is a complete reverse.

512
00:23:07.259 --> 00:23:11.099
Peter's playing vulnerable vanilla beige milkshake with a raspy

513
00:23:11.099 --> 00:23:12.420
ripple stream through it.

514
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.380
It's, you know, everything is the reverse of what we've had, and

515
00:23:16.380 --> 00:23:20.099
it's the same way that, no, I love the inclusivity of the story

516
00:23:20.099 --> 00:23:22.740
and we haven't got into the psychobabble stuff yet, have we?

517
00:23:22.799 --> 00:23:26.640
But all the literary conceits, but being inside a story inside a

518
00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:28.140
story is a really beautiful thing.

519
00:23:28.200 --> 00:23:31.980
And it's easy to watch a show from outside and see it as a

520
00:23:31.980 --> 00:23:32.759
television program.

521
00:23:32.819 --> 00:23:35.279
But we've all said this isn't just a television program.

522
00:23:35.339 --> 00:23:37.380
That is lovely.

523
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:41.940
If it's not, if it's not, if it's not, then the majority of the

524
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:43.019
next 13 stories.

525
00:23:43.079 --> 00:23:46.680
Because that's the thing, the mind robber is so good because it's

526
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:49.500
them followed up with the invasion and the seeds of death and the

527
00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:51.539
crow, you know, it's them followed up by monsters.

528
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:54.119
Whereas we get Castra Valva, which is very conceptual.

529
00:23:54.180 --> 00:23:56.579
We get 4 to Doomsday, which is a Billy Hart story?

530
00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:57.599
Exactly.

531
00:23:57.660 --> 00:23:59.400
It's a heartful story, but it's very conceptual.

532
00:23:59.460 --> 00:24:01.619
It does have monsters, but they just kind of sit around.

533
00:24:01.740 --> 00:24:05.160
We get Kinder, which is great and it has monsters, but they're

534
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:05.819
monsters of the mind.

535
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:09.299
We get visitation and earth shark, which are more traditional

536
00:24:09.299 --> 00:24:10.140
monster stories.

537
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.240
Terrible traditional monster stories.

538
00:24:12.299 --> 00:24:13.380
I enjoy...

539
00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:15.119
Oh, this is going to be a polarising era.

540
00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:16.079
Dear listener, yes.

541
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:20.279
And I don't want anyone to get me wrong because I developed a new

542
00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:22.500
appreciation of this era when I was watching it back through again

543
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:23.220
with Rod.

544
00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.400
Peter Davidson, and I'm sorry if you're listening, Peter, but I

545
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:27.059
don't think you are.

546
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:30.359
Peter Davidson was my least favourite doctor by a long, long way.

547
00:24:30.420 --> 00:24:34.740
I found him boring primarily and bored.

548
00:24:34.799 --> 00:24:37.380
I can't...

549
00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:38.519
That's my.

550
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:40.319
I'm on the same wavelength.

551
00:24:40.380 --> 00:24:42.420
But rewatching him in context.

552
00:24:42.480 --> 00:24:46.319
He has lots of little subtleties to his performance, which I think

553
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:49.440
the production are working against because they want to avoid

554
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.259
comedy, which is a, it's a big mistake.

555
00:24:52.319 --> 00:24:53.819
That's where it falls down.

556
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:56.460
I think we're going to start seeing, so Todd won't be here for

557
00:24:56.460 --> 00:25:00.000
this too, just as Janet picks up, Peter starts to just leave his

558
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:01.140
gloves on the desk here.

559
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.579
I think he starts being bored.

560
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.700
All the lovely little MacGyver moments with his bits of string

561
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:07.680
which is a terry nation invention.

562
00:25:08.940 --> 00:25:10.440
And I'm not stringed, but listener.

563
00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:15.000
Bill Oddie that invented the...

564
00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:17.339
And of course, Spike Milligan invented 2 pieces of string.

565
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:17.880
He did.

566
00:25:18.119 --> 00:25:21.359
We should put that out at the end anyway.

567
00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:22.140
Sorry.

568
00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.400
Something I don't like about this story is the fact that, um, okay

569
00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.500
we say we get out of the Tartars and then we're on some lovely

570
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:30.599
location work and the girls are running around and then they're

571
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:32.220
running away from these...

572
00:25:32.220 --> 00:25:33.059
Losing their trousers.

573
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:36.359
They're running away from these warrior people. right?

574
00:25:36.420 --> 00:25:39.299
But they don't need to if they just took off their helmets and

575
00:25:39.299 --> 00:25:40.619
went, look, we're here to help you.

576
00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:41.940
We can see you in the tapestry.

577
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.559
Like it's just this fake out thing.

578
00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:46.680
It's like delaying, getting into castra valver and I'm just, I

579
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:48.480
just sit there going, oh, we're just padding it.

580
00:25:48.539 --> 00:25:52.559
Like, to me, there's 3 episodes in here stretch to four. in 4

581
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:53.220
reckon this day.

582
00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:54.599
There's been 2 stretch before.

583
00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.220
I'm trying to be generous.

584
00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.859
In Ford of Doomsday.

585
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.740
Like, I really like the 1st couple of episodes and then it's like

586
00:26:01.740 --> 00:26:03.119
well, we're stretching it to four.

587
00:26:03.180 --> 00:26:06.480
In Kinder, I think that there's only 3 episodes stretch to four

588
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:08.940
with the worst stuff for the hangings for the whole season.

589
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.619
No.

590
00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:14.579
I think I think that is the worst story for the companions of the

591
00:26:14.579 --> 00:26:15.180
season.

592
00:26:15.240 --> 00:26:16.740
I'm not going to be here.

593
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.019
I love kinder, but I'm going to agree with you.

594
00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:21.420
I mean, it's not great for Sarah.

595
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:22.380
No, terrible.

596
00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:23.099
Well, she's asleep.

597
00:26:23.160 --> 00:26:24.779
Janet's asleep.

598
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:26.880
Even though she's having something in the mind, she's actually

599
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:30.000
asleep for over an episode, and Andrew's one moment trying to do

600
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.240
something good and one minute utterly crap, it's like he can't

601
00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:34.200
write.

602
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:35.880
Suspended in his crappy.

603
00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:38.220
Oh, it's the writing of the content.

604
00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:39.660
A very harsh critique on their acting.

605
00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:43.200
I mean, it's got Mary Morris, who I think is 10 out of 10 in every

606
00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:44.759
single scene, which is just unbelievable.

607
00:26:44.819 --> 00:26:48.660
And one of the best number 2s ever. in the prisoner. in the

608
00:26:48.660 --> 00:26:48.960
prisoner.

609
00:26:49.019 --> 00:26:50.519
It's no Ella Fitzgerald reference.

610
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:55.920
But I get I'm side shacked, but so obvious to me, it's like we're

611
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.680
padding to get to Castravalva, and then when we're in Castravalva

612
00:26:58.740 --> 00:26:59.880
What happens?

613
00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:01.079
Michael Sheard.

614
00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:02.579
I know, in a pink dress.

615
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:06.119
I do like that.

616
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:08.460
The owner puts the guys in dresses and she does that again in

617
00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:09.000
snake dance.

618
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:10.259
Yes, yes, yes.

619
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:10.859
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

620
00:27:10.920 --> 00:27:16.680
First our 1st cross gender costuming producer since the arc.

621
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:22.259
Yes, and of course, we have Shardavan, who is obviously set up to

622
00:27:22.259 --> 00:27:23.579
be the master.

623
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:26.519
And the thing is, and the Ali...

624
00:27:26.579 --> 00:27:30.299
Sorry, Neil Toyne actually gives an excellent performance as the

625
00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:30.720
portrait.

626
00:27:31.140 --> 00:27:33.539
You kind of fooled the 1st time around.

627
00:27:33.660 --> 00:27:36.240
When you were a little boy, did you know it was a time?

628
00:27:36.299 --> 00:27:37.619
No, I had no idea.

629
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:39.180
I was 13 and I didn't know.

630
00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:39.900
I had no idea.

631
00:27:39.960 --> 00:27:44.039
And the shock when he suddenly just begins to lift. was phenomenal

632
00:27:44.099 --> 00:27:45.000
he can act.

633
00:27:45.059 --> 00:27:46.079
Rod forgot.

634
00:27:46.200 --> 00:27:50.519
When we were watching it again, it was, it was when he was looking

635
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.740
at the 0 cabinet that Roger said, hold on.

636
00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:53.579
Hop.

637
00:27:53.579 --> 00:27:54.299
Oh.

638
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:54.599
No.

639
00:27:54.660 --> 00:27:56.519
Yes, he's the master.

640
00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:58.200
It was an amazing moment.

641
00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:58.740
It still works.

642
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:01.200
I just think his best performances in Doctor Who.

643
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.880
Tremus?

644
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:04.980
And the portrayed where he's not playing the master.

645
00:28:05.039 --> 00:28:06.420
But I have no idea.

646
00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:08.519
I don't understand the plan.

647
00:28:08.579 --> 00:28:11.460
Like, so he's got he's got this.

648
00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:12.180
Oh, don't go there.

649
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.619
There's been one plan.

650
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.519
I mean, it's so stupid.

651
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:19.740
Look, you know, he creates this event with Event one, but just in

652
00:28:19.740 --> 00:28:20.640
case that doesn't work.

653
00:28:20.700 --> 00:28:24.299
He's already got Adric to send them to Castra Valver and put all

654
00:28:24.299 --> 00:28:27.599
that stuff in the, so he's already anticipating the event one

655
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:28.859
thing's not going to work.

656
00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:30.480
And he's got his backup plan.

657
00:28:30.539 --> 00:28:31.380
Then he goes back in time.

658
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:34.019
You know, he creates all these people somehow.

659
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.799
Like, I don't know how I know very little about telebiogenes.

660
00:28:37.859 --> 00:28:38.579
Hooray!

661
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:42.180
And, you know, then there's some kind of giant, like, what's he

662
00:28:42.180 --> 00:28:42.960
meant to do?

663
00:28:43.019 --> 00:28:45.839
Like, is the doctor to be trapped in castra valver while it

664
00:28:45.839 --> 00:28:46.319
shrinks?

665
00:28:46.380 --> 00:28:49.019
Is he just going to hit him with a stick when he finds him there?

666
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:50.279
Like what's going on?

667
00:28:50.339 --> 00:28:53.940
Can I make a suggestion in one of my usual continuity?

668
00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:55.980
Explanation in inverted commas?

669
00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:58.079
Make it making stuff up is what it is.

670
00:28:58.140 --> 00:29:01.799
So the master has a plan behind that plan that would have been

671
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:02.700
enjoyed to spring.

672
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:05.880
So let's just assume that he just has Castrovalva.

673
00:29:05.940 --> 00:29:11.099
He's just invented this sort of European sunny villa on top of a

674
00:29:11.099 --> 00:29:14.400
hill where the men run around in dresses, and he suddenly got

675
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:18.359
Matthew Waterhouse in pyjamas, and his 1st thought is to take him

676
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:20.819
to this little Spanish style villa where the men run around in

677
00:29:20.819 --> 00:29:22.740
dresses and tie him to a wall.

678
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.759
I think the fact that the doctor escapes and can just be lured

679
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:27.059
there.

680
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:27.960
That's just a bonus.

681
00:29:28.019 --> 00:29:30.660
This was the master's holiday.

682
00:29:31.500 --> 00:29:34.440
It's a great time to think about this.

683
00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:35.700
I actually just came up with it.

684
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:36.779
I think it works.

685
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.240
I agree completely with that.

686
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:43.380
As he grips his remote with one hand and his cherry picker with

687
00:29:43.380 --> 00:29:45.960
the other and up he rises to meet Adric.

688
00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:47.400
The hard on power line.

689
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:48.599
Let me filter the touch.

690
00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:50.279
I agree with you, Nathan.

691
00:29:50.339 --> 00:29:54.359
He's escaped from Trark, and then he's gone off to, what's that

692
00:29:54.359 --> 00:29:54.779
planet?

693
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:56.880
Logopolis with the, what were they doing?

694
00:29:56.940 --> 00:29:57.480
What was their thing?

695
00:29:57.539 --> 00:29:59.039
The block transfer computation?

696
00:29:59.099 --> 00:30:00.839
Is he using block transfer computation?

697
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:04.980
through Edric's computations in the Star Wars to create this trap

698
00:30:04.980 --> 00:30:06.059
within a trap within a trap?

699
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:09.240
But which makes no actual... no So he, but he goes back, he says

700
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:12.539
later that he's going to go back in time and created.

701
00:30:12.599 --> 00:30:13.980
It's clearly his 2nd plan.

702
00:30:14.039 --> 00:30:16.559
But, I mean, why doesn't he just poison the doctor's drink, you

703
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:17.279
know, or something?

704
00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:19.680
Like the doctor has this drink. you know, like, what the hell is

705
00:30:19.680 --> 00:30:19.980
going on?

706
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:22.380
Well, Russell had to reckon the whole thing, didn't he?

707
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:25.559
He had drums in his head and he's crazy.

708
00:30:25.619 --> 00:30:28.619
Well, he's standing around in a very shortened pair of Bernard

709
00:30:28.619 --> 00:30:29.700
Horsfall's pyjamas.

710
00:30:30.539 --> 00:30:34.559
Having his pigskin struck repeatedly.

711
00:30:34.859 --> 00:30:38.819
I love the bit where the cast of albums tear off his pyjamas at

712
00:30:38.819 --> 00:30:39.359
the end.

713
00:30:39.420 --> 00:30:42.180
Oh, I was referring to his drum in my brain.

714
00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:43.920
But yes.

715
00:30:44.039 --> 00:30:46.440
See, I told you, it's a gay holiday.

716
00:30:46.440 --> 00:30:47.579
Hello?

717
00:30:47.579 --> 00:30:48.420
Pride Grand Canaria.

718
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:48.720
Sorry.

719
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:52.619
I mean, wait, it's so easy to pick the things that we don't like

720
00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:56.460
but did you get that sense of, I don't want to say sense of

721
00:30:56.460 --> 00:30:58.619
suspension, but I expect I'll get a...

722
00:30:58.680 --> 00:31:03.960
But there's that sense of dread within the realm of a child's

723
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:04.440
dream.

724
00:31:04.500 --> 00:31:07.920
So the dread is always illogical and unspoken, and it's a very

725
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.640
dream-like threat when you've got the, the castor of elements

726
00:31:11.640 --> 00:31:16.559
hunting with what looks like upturned bird bars on their heads. for

727
00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:18.960
no good reason, revealing, but that's what dream fear does.

728
00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:22.859
There is no logical sequence. to the ostensible thread.

729
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.099
And I think that that actually just lends to this.

730
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.240
I was taken back to being pre-teenage when I was watching this.

731
00:31:30.299 --> 00:31:32.579
It felt like being a small child again.

732
00:31:32.640 --> 00:31:35.519
Now, it's quite a clever thing for Fiona coming to have achieved.

733
00:31:35.579 --> 00:31:39.599
I just think it's the wrong story for the 1st story. the 1st story

734
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:39.900
really?

735
00:31:39.960 --> 00:31:40.500
That's all.

736
00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:44.940
I think that he needs to prove to the audience that he is capable

737
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:46.140
of facing up to something.

738
00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:50.700
I think that the regeneration trauma thing is always a bad idea

739
00:31:50.700 --> 00:31:56.220
and it means that we don't get to see what he's going to be like.

740
00:31:56.279 --> 00:31:57.480
And there's just no threat.

741
00:31:57.539 --> 00:31:58.380
He doesn't do anything.

742
00:31:58.440 --> 00:32:00.059
He doesn't resolve the situation.

743
00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:02.940
And I just think it's a massive misfire.

744
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:07.259
I think that you need something giant and epic, like, power of the

745
00:32:07.259 --> 00:32:09.420
Daleks or all.

746
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:10.920
We've seen that before and we've done that.

747
00:32:10.980 --> 00:32:14.039
I would counter with that this is perhaps one of the greatest

748
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:17.160
literary conceit stories of Doctor Who of all time.

749
00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:19.319
It is actually that good.

750
00:32:19.380 --> 00:32:23.339
It's, if you look at it, in the way that we always do, in the way

751
00:32:23.339 --> 00:32:26.519
that many, you know, many of the, of our friends do, as this is

752
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:29.460
being not just a TV episode, something inside.

753
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.880
It's one of the 1st times the Doctor Who does magic realism.

754
00:32:32.940 --> 00:32:38.460
This is actually a Jorge Louis Borges story in such as the

755
00:32:38.460 --> 00:32:42.119
circular ruins in labyrinths, and that story starts with, in the

756
00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.940
dream of the man who was dreaming the dreamt man awoke.

757
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.259
Now, the idea of wheels within wheels, with ideas and thoughts

758
00:32:49.259 --> 00:32:52.500
within thoughts, and the person within a person within a person is

759
00:32:52.500 --> 00:32:53.339
exactly what we're seeing.

760
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:54.299
This is a hatching.

761
00:32:54.359 --> 00:32:55.440
This is a chrysalis doctor.

762
00:32:55.500 --> 00:32:55.980
We saw him.

763
00:32:56.039 --> 00:32:57.180
He was covered in cobwebs.

764
00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:02.099
And that conceit of this butterfly like doctoral, gossenery and

765
00:33:02.099 --> 00:33:06.119
wistful, with a very difficult birth, is a really beautiful

766
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:06.660
thing.

767
00:33:06.720 --> 00:33:09.180
There are so many literary trumps in this.

768
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:12.059
Couldn't you convey that idea in a story that was actually

769
00:33:12.059 --> 00:33:13.019
entertaining?

770
00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:14.039
I don't know what to watch.

771
00:33:14.099 --> 00:33:15.779
But I don't know that it doesn't do that.

772
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:19.380
My watching back in 1982 was that I felt that.

773
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:21.660
And my friends felt the same way.

774
00:33:21.720 --> 00:33:24.960
So I'm sure, I'm sure that if you look at this, and again, Doctor

775
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.660
Who has to be seen on several levels, because we just look at it

776
00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:30.900
as a bland TV show, we were there with all the other fans who say

777
00:33:30.900 --> 00:33:32.940
oh, I can't, oh, so many casual viewers.

778
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.220
You say, well, I don't really think I like Doctor Who.

779
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:37.019
I haven't looked at it, have you?

780
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:40.559
I'm actually with Richard on this one. literally.

781
00:33:40.619 --> 00:33:44.819
My only disappointment in the story is the doctor's lack of

782
00:33:44.819 --> 00:33:46.019
involvement in the resolution.

783
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:50.579
Now, he does, in a way, inspire Shardavan, but Shardavan already

784
00:33:50.579 --> 00:33:51.660
have his suspicions.

785
00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:56.160
That being said, Charaman sacrifices, a beautiful moment with a

786
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:57.240
beautiful death line.

787
00:33:57.299 --> 00:33:59.640
You made this man of evil, but we are free.

788
00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:03.839
Yeah, but then he's got a big sort of skirty ass flying through

789
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:05.099
the air into the bing.

790
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:06.180
It's all undermined.

791
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:10.679
I believe that's Derek Ware doing that stuff.

792
00:34:10.739 --> 00:34:11.340
It is too.

793
00:34:11.400 --> 00:34:11.760
Yeah.

794
00:34:11.820 --> 00:34:16.019
But yeah, that is literally my only problem with this story.

795
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:17.159
What about the master?

796
00:34:17.219 --> 00:34:19.440
No, no, I think he's fine.

797
00:34:19.500 --> 00:34:22.860
You know, I think the scheme's a bit bonkers, but I can look past

798
00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:24.840
that. increasingly Baroque and stupid.

799
00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:27.179
It's a great, we're not repeating it.

800
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.320
We're not repeating episode titles.

801
00:34:28.380 --> 00:34:29.519
Stop trying to make it happen.

802
00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:33.239
I like the intent and I get what you're saying about the themes

803
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:34.800
and the ideas behind it.

804
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:39.000
I personally think it now looks quite cheap.

805
00:34:39.059 --> 00:34:40.199
The square is very small.

806
00:34:40.260 --> 00:34:44.039
I wanted to see inside the library and that sort of thing. and I

807
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:47.039
feel that it runs out of story in Castroval, but I actually like

808
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:49.860
these other characters and I wanted to find out more about them

809
00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:53.940
and that they're just there for a moment or two.

810
00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:57.179
You know, they, Fiona's trying to do that shot. you know, with all

811
00:34:57.179 --> 00:34:58.139
the mirrors and that sort of thing.

812
00:34:58.199 --> 00:34:59.340
It doesn't work at all.

813
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:00.059
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

814
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.519
I do love who says that wretched square again?

815
00:35:02.579 --> 00:35:03.360
Is that a Tegan line?

816
00:35:03.420 --> 00:35:04.500
That's like a Tegan one.

817
00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:06.900
That works really well when they're running down the stairs into

818
00:35:06.900 --> 00:35:07.380
the square.

819
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:08.579
There's no special effects.

820
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:10.139
It's just, you know, anything.

821
00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:11.460
Yeah, I drive like it's really well.

822
00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:13.380
It looks terrible.

823
00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:15.239
It should be in our imagination.

824
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:19.739
I like it, you know, I give it a seven, 7.5 , but I don't love

825
00:35:19.739 --> 00:35:19.920
it.

826
00:35:19.980 --> 00:35:21.179
Right?

827
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.480
And I guess that's a line that I'm going to keep on repeating.

828
00:35:24.539 --> 00:35:27.719
Well, I don't know what's going to be, you know, I don't think

829
00:35:27.719 --> 00:35:28.320
you're going to be saying it.

830
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:29.159
Not about season 20.

831
00:35:29.579 --> 00:35:30.599
No, I don't like it.

832
00:35:30.659 --> 00:35:32.099
I just don't like it.

833
00:35:32.519 --> 00:35:37.260
And of course, Pete then puts this celery on, which apparently is

834
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:41.400
not real. virtual salary and he replaces it with more virtual

835
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:42.360
salary and enlightenment.

836
00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.440
That's why it never wilts.

837
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:45.900
He's holding it together with block transfer computation.

838
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:48.599
Just doing a few scenes in his off moments.

839
00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:49.800
Keep your celery go.

840
00:35:49.860 --> 00:35:51.900
You know, like the Sonic screwdriver in Day of the Doctor.

841
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:56.219
So can I just say the audiobook of this is really good?

842
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:57.420
Who reads that?

843
00:35:57.480 --> 00:35:59.099
So it's read by Pete.

844
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:04.139
So Bidmead himself reads, as you might have guessed, Bidmead

845
00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:06.960
himself reads Legopolis, and you kind of think that would be

846
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.840
really terrible, except he's got a great voice, so it sounds

847
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:10.380
really good.

848
00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:14.219
But they get paid to read Castro Valver, and Castro Valver is very

849
00:36:14.219 --> 00:36:14.460
good.

850
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:18.119
You would expect from Bidmead that it's a bit self-important and

851
00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:22.199
wordy and a little bit pedantic, but it is really quite good.

852
00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:28.920
And Pete does the most note perfect for the anly impersonation.

853
00:36:28.980 --> 00:36:32.400
It's absolutely incredible you've got to listen to it.

854
00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:33.420
He does Tegan.

855
00:36:34.139 --> 00:36:35.219
Well, we can, yes.

856
00:36:35.219 --> 00:36:39.239
But he's the alien is just so funny.

857
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:42.719
And it's hard to imagine that he wasn't doing hilarious comedy

858
00:36:42.719 --> 00:36:43.980
impersonations.

859
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.440
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

860
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:48.059
I'm sure there was quite a bit of that.

861
00:36:48.780 --> 00:36:49.559
How did they get on?

862
00:36:49.619 --> 00:36:52.800
Like, I've never heard anything about how Pete got on with Anthony

863
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.599
and Anthony got on with the most of the cars.

864
00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:58.739
Apparently Amy was quite reserved and very cool and private, but

865
00:36:58.739 --> 00:37:03.000
then he had a very dark sense of humour, and that's why, again, why

866
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:05.699
JNT said he hired him after working with him on the Palaces.

867
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.639
It's the Colin Baker's syndrome of making people laugh.

868
00:37:08.699 --> 00:37:13.500
But I think he he, because he was quite sensitive and fragile in

869
00:37:13.500 --> 00:37:15.900
that way, and he wasn't out, at least as far as I know, is not

870
00:37:15.900 --> 00:37:16.500
publicly.

871
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:18.539
So they were, what do you remember?

872
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:23.579
Um, I have heard that he and Pete had a good professional

873
00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:28.920
relationship, but weren't great friends outside of it.

874
00:37:29.099 --> 00:37:32.219
As I understand it, he and Colin got on very well.

875
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:34.679
And he and Sylvester got on okay as well.

876
00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:39.480
So yeah, I mean, I think I think with Pete and Anthony, it was

877
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:41.880
just A, it was a, it was a professional relationship.

878
00:37:41.940 --> 00:37:46.440
And I would say he works better with Peter than he does with Colin

879
00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:46.860
in my opinion.

880
00:37:46.980 --> 00:37:49.619
As for Sylvester, we'll discuss that when we get there.

881
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.860
I think it's a terrible misconception of what the character should

882
00:37:52.860 --> 00:37:53.340
be.

883
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:56.400
I think I think only is struggling with that as well.

884
00:37:56.460 --> 00:38:00.000
So you've got to build the master needs to be the doctor's

885
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:00.360
opposite.

886
00:38:00.420 --> 00:38:02.340
He's a doctor, isn't he?

887
00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:04.440
Well, we've said this before.

888
00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:07.320
He's got to be he's got to threaten to be more interesting than

889
00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:07.800
the doctor.

890
00:38:07.860 --> 00:38:09.719
He's got to threaten to be the star of the show.

891
00:38:09.719 --> 00:38:12.239
And that's what sound of drums does really well.

892
00:38:12.300 --> 00:38:14.820
I think Claws of Axos does that really well.

893
00:38:14.880 --> 00:38:16.559
Sea devils, yeah, beautifully.

894
00:38:16.679 --> 00:38:19.920
But in all of those too, like, you know, the master is the prime

895
00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:22.920
minister, or he's whatever, the vicar or whatever.

896
00:38:22.980 --> 00:38:26.639
Whereas here, and in for the next few stories, he just plays dress

897
00:38:26.639 --> 00:38:30.059
up. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. with not terribly interesting

898
00:38:30.059 --> 00:38:31.320
characters, you know.

899
00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:32.400
But lovely frogs.

900
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:33.300
Lovely frogs.

901
00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:36.960
But, I mean, so the conception of the master, he's just a fool in

902
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:40.980
a beard who comes up with overly complicated plants is not the

903
00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:41.579
doctor's opposite.

904
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:45.659
And it's sort of terrible moral shorthand because he doesn't need

905
00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:49.079
any motivation or anything interesting going on.

906
00:38:49.139 --> 00:38:51.420
Yeah, and here it's just going to be evil.

907
00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:55.559
And here at the end, you know, he's trapped inside his own

908
00:38:55.559 --> 00:38:58.199
creation, like, you know, so that he's got to escape from.

909
00:38:58.260 --> 00:38:59.039
He'll be fine.

910
00:38:59.099 --> 00:39:02.340
You know, they can burn him up before our very eyes and he'll be

911
00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:02.579
fine.

912
00:39:02.639 --> 00:39:04.199
I mean, it's stupid.

913
00:39:04.260 --> 00:39:06.900
And I think that undermines the character that he's always put in

914
00:39:06.900 --> 00:39:10.199
these situations in the end that he's got to escape from for the

915
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:10.440
next time.

916
00:39:10.500 --> 00:39:15.780
Yeah, not only that, but we've now had 2 stories running where his

917
00:39:15.780 --> 00:39:17.099
objective is to kill the doctor.

918
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:18.300
Yeah.

919
00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:20.940
You know, in Lagopolis, he also wanted to hold the universe to

920
00:39:20.940 --> 00:39:23.099
ransom, but he wanted to embarrass the doctor while he did that.

921
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:26.820
And it's like, yeah, with the Delgado master, embarrassing or

922
00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:28.679
killing the doctor was always just a side effect.

923
00:39:28.739 --> 00:39:29.880
It was a side plan.

924
00:39:29.940 --> 00:39:31.920
It was, I'll go after the doctor if he goes after me.

925
00:39:31.980 --> 00:39:35.099
But in an assassin, he just wants to kill the doctor, doesn't he?

926
00:39:35.159 --> 00:39:37.860
Yeah, so I suppose that's really where it starts.

927
00:39:37.920 --> 00:39:40.860
I think from that moment where Robert Holmes redefines the

928
00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:43.139
character is this one that's just got meglomania going after the

929
00:39:43.139 --> 00:39:43.380
doctor.

930
00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:45.179
There's a big problem.

931
00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:45.719
Yeah.

932
00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:46.260
Yeah.

933
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:49.800
One of my favourite moments is what she is when he's drawing on

934
00:39:49.800 --> 00:39:53.159
the blackboard and he realises that the house is in 4 points.

935
00:39:53.219 --> 00:39:54.840
That blew me away at four.

936
00:39:54.900 --> 00:39:56.099
It is good, and it's great.

937
00:39:56.099 --> 00:39:57.960
That's what I mean by literary conceit.

938
00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:00.719
I mean, that is the story inside the, in the, and getting into

939
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:01.559
these people's heads.

940
00:40:01.619 --> 00:40:03.360
It's the growth of realisation.

941
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:06.960
It's coming, this story is about the coming of consciousness.

942
00:40:07.019 --> 00:40:09.539
This is the chrysalis becoming the man.

943
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:15.539
And just as these Ativars of people are discovering humanity and

944
00:40:15.539 --> 00:40:19.860
that even a story character can have moral integrity is a

945
00:40:19.860 --> 00:40:20.400
beautiful thing.

946
00:40:20.460 --> 00:40:23.280
Yeah, that's what I love about Chardonn's end.

947
00:40:23.340 --> 00:40:23.639
Yeah.

948
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:26.099
In those moments, you know, I think are great.

949
00:40:26.159 --> 00:40:30.059
And I think this era, there are so many, in so many episodes

950
00:40:30.059 --> 00:40:31.139
there's a moment that I really love.

951
00:40:31.199 --> 00:40:32.159
Yes, yes.

952
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:34.679
And then there's like dregs you've got to get through.

953
00:40:34.739 --> 00:40:36.719
And then there's a moment That's like life, isn't it?

954
00:40:54.780 --> 00:40:58.679
Well, dear listeners, as the city folds up into paper behind us, we

955
00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:01.980
rock it off into space to try and get Tegan back for her flight in

956
00:41:01.980 --> 00:41:03.179
time at Heath Row.

957
00:41:03.239 --> 00:41:04.860
That was in 10 seconds or less.

958
00:41:06.539 --> 00:41:10.739
Don't forget to check out our website at FlightthroughEntirety.com

959
00:41:10.739 --> 00:41:13.559
flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on

960
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:13.980
Twitter.

961
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:17.519
We do also have our YouTube series now, Doctor Who in 10 seconds.

962
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:18.539
Thank you, Richard.

963
00:41:18.599 --> 00:41:23.280
And over on Bondfinger, we've recently released our commentary for

964
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:28.380
The Man with the Golden Gun and all Bond films preceding that as

965
00:41:28.380 --> 00:41:28.619
well.

966
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:29.760
So do check that out.

967
00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:32.340
We haven't recorded it yet, but it's bound to be terrible.

968
00:41:33.300 --> 00:41:37.139
Until next week, May, none of you get drunk before you have to

969
00:41:37.139 --> 00:41:38.639
film them, throw up behind a tree.

970
00:41:38.699 --> 00:41:40.320
Thank you very much for listening a good night.

971
00:41:40.380 --> 00:41:41.280
Good night.

972
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:42.420
See you soon.

973
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:43.380
Heave home.

974
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:50.159
That was Flight Joy Entirety with Todd Beelby, Nate for Bodily

975
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:53.159
Brenda Jones, Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

976
00:41:53.219 --> 00:41:56.400
This episode, I know very little about telebiogenesis, was

977
00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:58.440
recorded on the 15th of May 2016.

978
00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.380
The next episode will be released on the 19th of June.

979
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:05.099
If you would enjoy a holiday, strap to a wall on a small planet of

980
00:42:05.099 --> 00:42:08.219
the Finalogs series, just send a stamped, self addressed envelope

981
00:42:08.219 --> 00:42:11.460
to Neil Toyne, Leon Tyne, or James Stoker.

982
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.860
Okay, that's good.

983
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:18.539
Brilliant comedy outro.

984
00:42:18.659 --> 00:42:19.739
Uh, okay.

985
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:20.880
So...

986
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:21.539
This podcast.

987
00:42:25.380 --> 00:42:27.719
So when's this episode going out?