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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:37:44

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Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast coming to you live from the Dark Places of the Inside.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Steve Strange, Fading to Grey.

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I don't know what that means.

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They're with us.

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And we're about to discover if paradise is a bit too green for us, as we embark on a doctrine story, properly written by King Bush, Kinder.

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It's not written by King.

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It's good.

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Well, this is...

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This is actually the word for world is forest, isn't it?

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This is another one of those Leguin books, or it's Heart of Darkness, if you like, or it's the book I've got around my hot little hand.

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Uh, Chinua, Achebe's Things Fall Apart.

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Or it's the face of evil, or it's the Daleks.

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But what is it?

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It kind of lingers as it does in your memory, this episode, doesn't it?

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I think it's kinder as many an ABC announcer would call it.

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I think this is the best of the season.

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Definitely it is.

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High concept and writing and all the rest of it.

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And performances. as well.

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Yes.

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Unless you're under 10, in which case it's the most silly boring thing you've ever seen.

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Well, it came 4th or something in the Doctor Who poll immediately afterwards, the Doctor Who magazine poll, is it a season?

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Botty 18 year olds who thought Time Flight was the greatest Doctor Who story in living memory.

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Yeah.

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I have to say, I loved this at an under 10.

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You know, it was another one of those ones where maybe I didn't necessarily understand everything like Legopolis, but I was swept up in imagery.

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You know, I didn't have that vocabulary then to explain what I enjoyed about it.

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But I think that's what it was.

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This is where we get to Joseph Campbell, talking about, again, in his hero, having a 1000 faces or his creative mythology series, which is an encyclopaedic discourse, where you don't need to know the antecedents, because you're born with them, and the stories, not just the Jungian being born with them, but the stories are repeated in so many different levels all throughout your life, that when you actually get visage doing their video, fade to gray, looking exactly like what happens to Tegan, when she sits alone under the plastic mobile, going off into a darker unconscious, we can all do the

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accent, yes.

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But it acts exactly like an 80s video, and all the better for that because this season, not actually since Billy and Paddy have we had.

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Oh, okay, John as well with his beautiful glam rock stuff.

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Have we had something that's so poignant, that's so absolutely of its era?

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And that's, I think, why people come to it now and, you know, I had to say there was, I was doing a lot of toddlike peeling the plastic off the boxes to watch this series, but including this one.

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But yeah, there's a hell of a lot more to it.

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It's a lot more enjoyable.

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Something I never picked up on as a child.

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Again, it didn't affect my enjoyment of it, is the 3 figures Teagan meets in her dream world, of course, are representative of the doctor, Nyssa, and Adrick.

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And also, interestingly, representative of Tegan's lack of scientific knowledge because, you know, they're constantly talking around her and saying things that don't make any sense to her.

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So it's interesting that we're seeing the other characters through Tegan's perspective for those things.

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It is definitely a Tegan vehicle, isn't it?

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Even though she's kind of out of it in a way that nicely.

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There are so many reflections and mirrors within mirrors of this.

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Tegan is also playing the, the, uh, the ying to the yang of, um, of, uh, Nyssa, who's comatose in the car, in the car, sounds okay.

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So that scene that you were referencing, Brandon, with those 3 characters, Tegan comes around the corner of a sort of structure and sees the 2 characters playing a board game, which is exactly how the episode starts with...

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Exactly.

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With that caravan like structured looking like a deconstructed TARD.

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Yeah.

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And then clearly the other character.

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Yeah, so who's Dr. Duka similar.

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Those characters are named after the 3 marks of existence in Buddhism.

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So, uh, Duka, Anasa, and so, um, suffering or dissatisfaction or stress, um, impermanence, and, um, not self, and Polly Wright, obviously.

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Anika.

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And yeah, yeah, the bloke is call that though.

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So, sorry, is the bloke is the bloke called Not Self?

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No, he's called he's called impermanence on she's called not self.

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So Adric is impermanent.

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Nissa is not self because she is the woman in the show who is not Tegan.

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And the doctor is suffering because he's already died.

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But he's also her suffering and her torment.

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But you realise that Kinder, this story is also our very podcast.

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We are also kinder in that we have Brendan, our own Stuart Fell, Lee Corns, the fool who brings enlightenment for us all with his jerks.

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Todd is Mary Morris, obviously.

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He loves marrying Horace.

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He's been raving about how great she is.

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Yes, and bone structure and everything.

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Nathan, again, just sits in the semi-darkness, having a tired hiss at anything that displeases him, that passes that isn't a pantodromedry.

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And I guess that makes me Neris Hughes.

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Oh, Neris.

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And I'm the one doing exposition-y type questions and talking about German expressionism.

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And you're the one you're the one who also believes that things are not necessarily as they appear.

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You go deeper beneath the surface to look for the hidden communication.

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But in blue stockings and a pair of glasses and a white coat because I'm the Velma of this episode.

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I was wondering why you were wearing that.

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Why do they do this?

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Can we talk about directing for a moment?

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What's going on?

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Oh, we haven't even talked about the, okay, we've touched on the inside world and we've got to go back to this.

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But while we're talking about cast and performances, we've got Richard Todd, and we've got Simon Rouse.

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I think there are many reasons.

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This story is very good.

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Well, obviously, I mean, that's just me and apotheosis, but Richard Todd, who's looking well fit?

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Thank you.

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Still can manage to squeeze himself out of a Spitfire cockpit with alacrity, I'd say.

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That scene where he's delivering dialogue while doing push-ups is just terrifically great.

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And Simon Rouse is just one, if this is...

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We haven't had this for a while.

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This is more hitting on other 80s shows.

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We have a truly mad villain.

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There is no villain in this.

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The closest thing we have is a disturbed young man.

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Yeah.

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And now it's not even Matthew Wilderhouse.

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I will say, though, that as much as Rod enjoyed this story, he actually hated Hindel and Sanders.

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He just couldn't get his head around why these characters were behaving in this way.

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Even with...

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He doesn't listen. never hear this.

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He just said he didn't like their stupidity.

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And I tried to press him.

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Why?

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And he's just like, no, they were just stupid.

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I said, but they were mad.

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No, they were stupid.

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So, you know, it's interesting to hear the casual view of the mom thing.

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He still gave the story 7.5 out of 10.

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That's more than time gives it.

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This story is, again, sort of like, why, I keep harping on why Doctor Who works because it's so, it's just about every other story we've seen. in out of in outer literature.

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We already sort of vaguely touched on the Buddhism.

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I don't think that there is as much Buddhism in it as people say, although there is the, you know, the Bava chakra, the wheel of life, the wheel that gets set in motion and that sort of panafirs.

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Everyone kind of has parley names, all of that.

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So there's a kind of, there is a superficial sort of Buddhist thing.

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But there's also sort of themes from Christianity.

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I mean, you have a snake up a tree throwing apples at a young man who lives this sedentic existence where he doesn't have to work, where where food is provided off the trees.

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Janet was going to woke up with a bowl of apples at her feet.

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Well, I think they do, they do give offerings to her while she's drinking.

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Why the hell don't they just bloody wake her up instead of sitting garlands on her?

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They know you got, if anyone goes a bit nuts and things go wrong. if you lie under the mobile by yourself.

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No, they say they're dreaming of an unshared mind, so maybe they don't realise she's not telepathy.

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So there's all of that sort of Christian imagery, and they talk about it being paradise and so on, and there's that sort of hilarious scene where Mareth Hughes is tempting the doctor between an Apple as well.

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Which I think is terrific.

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And then on top of that, you've got this fabulous binary between, essentially, it's like a male hierarchy that's characterised by people shouting orders.

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It's characterised by plans to destroy things, and it's characterised by building shelters.

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So you've got the dome, you've got the city, the cardboard city that Hindle creates.

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You've got the TSS, you know, boxes and shelters.

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Even interacting with the world, you have to build a character, a false, false self.

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By contrast, you've got the Kinder who are explicitly said not to build shelters because the temperature is so temperate.

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They don't have to work, the men don't have voice.

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But they do have fillings.

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They do have feelings.

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So they do, there is obviously higher culture.

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They still caring on this.

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Yeah, that's right.

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Unless Dr. Todd has, you know, gone, oh, that's a bit nasty.

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You've been eating a bit too many river fruit.

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Yeah, have you feeling?

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So you have this contrast.

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And what happens to the kinder is, of course, once Aris is possessed by the Mara, the kinder start to turn into something that has hierarchy and build shelters and has men barking boards to destroy things.

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You know, he'd build...

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The boys, isn't it?

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Yeah, so I think that that's really strong and that's all tied up with themes of colonialism.

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You've got Sanders wearing a pith helmet, you know, saying if McKindra are so smart, why didn't they come and, you know, colonise us?

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So I think that there's a lot going on and it isn't really a Buddhist parable.

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No, it's a lot bigger than that.

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And, you know, this one was mine, so I spent a bit of time looking at it and looking at the other things that it comes from.

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I mentioned before, Chinoa, okay, these things full apart that came out in 1958.

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This sold 10000000 copies and this is my pick of the week.

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And the reason I think that this book actually talks about, Chris Bailey was a lecturer.

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He was famous for standing around, constantly smoking, talking to young people, kind of like we would if smoking was actually still okay.

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But the thing for me for kinder is just what you're saying, society, art, culture, and the structure of these fine relationships that we build between all of these things isn't always was, and always will be, fragile, and by its own nature failing, we build to fail.

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Even love dies as life passes.

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And this is about the internalisation of the narrative unto the unfolding of self.

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So this is about how we deal with the flux and the anxiety and the grieving of, of failing, of destructuring.

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But then you have the women saying, the only 2 with voice, as it starts off, saying, it's a wheel, it turns.

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These things are always in progress.

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All you can do is to sit back and contemplate.

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And watch.

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That's the only way you can actually find sanity.

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But then, the men will say, you allow that to happen, and there is chaos, there is destruction, and there is suffering, and there is pain.

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This doesn't present an answer, this story.

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Because it can't.

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This would seem to be the 3rd story running, where things are perfectly fine, until someone tries to impose an external order upon them.

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Or he's just the doctor is just the trips which are in this case, Tegan, for moving things to the next stage that they were going to come to anyway.

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Oh, I don't necessarily mean the doctor.

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And his lot.

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I mean, the human colonists in this case.

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A monarch in the previous story, and the master in the story before that.

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Now, you could, of course, argue that the master and Adric created Castrovalva, but Castroval was perfectly nice and happy and peaceful, until the master insists that it must serve its purpose rather than just letting the people live out there, admittedly fictional existences.

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Monarch is determined to invade Earth with these people he's kidnapped instead of, you know, allowing things like love or free will, you know, he's constantly stabbing those things out.

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He doesn't know what love is.

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He can just flip a switch and free will is gone.

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And, you know, here, you've got, as you were saying earlier, Sanders says that, you know, if they're so intelligent, why didn't they come and invade us?

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Well, maybe they're more intelligent because they don't need to invade places.

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Yeah, we we talked a lot about, you know, season 17 having an overarching theme about the individual.

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And then, you know, we talked about how it kind of continued in season 18, and it has really just occurred to me listening to you talk, Richard, that maybe season 19 has a bit of that theme in it as well, had a bit of a bit of the idea of, What we define as progress as a capitalist culture and a consumerist culture may not necessarily be so.

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Yes, and you can say this, Doctor Who, and still be referencing the story on the TV.

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I just think it's such a shame that Tegan's Triptic, in her mindset, didn't win Eurovision that year.

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They were so close.

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They won the next year, didn't they?

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Who do we think was robbed in Eurovision this year?

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I think So Hat from San Morito was robbed?

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It can't even afford socks.

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He wasn't going to make a bit of one.

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What do you want to say about the rest of the rest of this story then?

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We've gone into the deeper things.

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So what do we think about?

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We haven't we haven't touched on the horny proposition that is.

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Taking?

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From the sublime to the ridiculous or vice versa in this case.

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She was terrible in fortitude say, and she's marvellous here.

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Some crack cocaine.

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Raunchy Madden.

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Marvellous might be a little bit of an overstatement.

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No Doctor Who companion since Sarah Jane in the hand of fear has had the opportunity to play this kind of evil character.

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You know, even Lala Ward in full circle.

197
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She wasn't the full-blown talking, scheming.

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You know, she was acting on instinct.

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She was a beast, beastly beast.

200
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But, you know, I would actually say that Janet Fielding in this surpasses Eldred possessed Sarah Jane.

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This is the 1st libidinous character we've actually had in Dr. Who Vivian Fay doesn't count.

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This is, I think, actually Professor Rumford probably only comes up as second.

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Okay, Lady Adrasta.

204
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But even then, not really.

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No, in fact, the torture's been passed quite strongly from Eileen Way to Janet Fielding.

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It's not on fire.

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Do you remember those red pills that you had to chew to make?

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Go to your parties.

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To determine whether you had plaque on your teeth or not?

210
00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:28.860
and they would turn the plot.

211
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:35.220
Like, so you have to, so you chew one of those before you become a Mara, obviously.

212
00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.820
She, like, she's doing the accent as the Mara.

213
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:43.200
You know, she's trying to do an English accent and not doing it very well.

214
00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:45.240
She's doing Gloria Swanson.

215
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.220
Pride of her career.

216
00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:58.320
Look, she is she is pretty funny and I actually think her best performance is in the scene where there's 2 Tegans and they're talking about their past and there's no edits there.

217
00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:59.759
So it's really well timed.

218
00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:02.340
Yeah, they managed to get it sort of happening really well.

219
00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:06.539
Yeah, and I think I think that's down to down. it's also down to the fact we've got Peter Grimway directing again.

220
00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:10.259
Yeah, we really have jumped from last story, haven't we?

221
00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.299
Yeah, and you know, a lot of people...

222
00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:13.680
How does this whole thing play out?

223
00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:15.180
confused as much as she is?

224
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:15.420
Yes.

225
00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:30.839
A lot of people talk about, you know, how Graham Harper is the best classic series director and certainly I would say it's the most stylish, but in terms of balancing getting the show done and getting it done with a certain level of style and with excellent performances.

226
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.460
It's Peter Grimwade for my money.

227
00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:43.079
Well, there's a very different style of directing justice, SF, traditionally, is seen about the externalising of theard to culture, SF, is, you know, the promulgating of future in a hard way.

228
00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:45.839
This is the internalising.

229
00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:57.779
This is more the fantasy writing or the stuff that had been around for 10, 20 years post-tolken about what happens when you, when you go on a personal odyssey or an internal, internal journey.

230
00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:58.920
Can we use the J word?

231
00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.799
Chicken's definitely on a J word in this one.

232
00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:05.759
But also, I think when she comes out of it.

233
00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:10.980
When the Mara has left her and her performance for the rest of the story.

234
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:16.319
You know, there's a lot of subtle emotions in there, there's remorse, there's guilt, there's fear.

235
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:26.519
And especially that wonderful bit towards the end where she's looking at the Mara in complete disbelief and says it's, but it's gone now, isn't it?

236
00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:27.779
And the doctor won't answer.

237
00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:28.559
Yes.

238
00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:30.240
Well, it was her Mara.

239
00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:32.460
Wasn't anybody else's mine.

240
00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.579
It was produced from her, and the Mara is always on the Mara.

241
00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:36.779
She calls it.

242
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:39.420
There's a lovely song that they used to sing about that song.

243
00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:43.440
It's a lovely wartime song about the biggest marrow that I've ever been seen.

244
00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:45.960
Holding a couple of prize maraths?

245
00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:49.319
Yes, she references that in the next story.

246
00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:51.539
Big marrow that was right inside my head.

247
00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.660
Anyway, yes, yes, she does.

248
00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:56.880
Oh, dear.

249
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.079
She does get a really terrible scene with Adrik, which it is...

250
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:02.700
To one extent.

251
00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:05.339
Yeah, to literally the episode was underrunning.

252
00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:06.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

253
00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:10.440
Oh, you know, that was recorded while I was shooting Earth Shock, and it's all Sabord's writing.

254
00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:12.839
Yeah, see, it sounded like...

255
00:19:12.900 --> 00:19:21.000
And Bailey said, take my name off this because this is not, I have to stand up in front of students and they will quote this at me.

256
00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:24.660
I actually have a career outside of your tortury prod.

257
00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:25.680
Oh, he did.

258
00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:26.400
He didn't say that.

259
00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:29.460
And so, well, we had to put it, it's excruciating.

260
00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:36.299
And that's the reason why it was much as we might say nice things about Mr. Seward, if you want to say things that are nice and nice to say, right?

261
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.220
Well, he also wrote that scene.

262
00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:44.099
And look at how at how at odds it is, with the delicacy that's going on in the rest of this story.

263
00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:47.819
And it just, gosh, just doesn't sit.

264
00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.680
There's literally no point to it at all.

265
00:19:49.799 --> 00:20:06.660
No, they're just rehearsing plot points, like they're describing what's been happening in previous scenes, but we've just watched those scenes, you know, and so all it is is just fake manufactured conflict on a single set, it has nothing going for it, and it's going to increasingly become a feature of the program.

266
00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.000
And there's 10 minutes cut out of this story.

267
00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.200
Is it on the video?

268
00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:11.460
Did you bother?

269
00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:12.119
mean, did you watch it?

270
00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:14.640
I believe there are deleted scenes.

271
00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.700
Yeah, none of those scenes could be pushed back into part four, obviously.

272
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:25.380
Speaking of part 3 slash part four, There is that the beautiful dream sequence with all the clocks.

273
00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:29.579
And, you know, was what was what we saw real or imagined.

274
00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:29.940
Yes.

275
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.299
Oh, you know, that's chilling, chilling stuff.

276
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:36.539
I mean, this is another one that scared me as a goof, but it was a good kind of scary.

277
00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:50.400
And the best moment as a cliphanger that we didn't actually get was that clock that falls into the column and the estate boys spent half a day rigging it up, shot, it was perfect, and then the texts on the studio, said, no, 10 PM nights off.

278
00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.819
And that was a very big letter up to 6th floor.

279
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:54.599
Yes.

280
00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:59.519
However, I do think the white out on Mary Morris's face is very effective as well.

281
00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:02.640
She shot that all in one day.

282
00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:12.420
She drove, get this, drove from her house in a, probably in a, in a white mini moke with a frilly top because she was the best number 2 in the prisoner of all time.

283
00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.440
Dance of the Dead, I believe.

284
00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:16.079
It's actually kind of, it's the women's episode.

285
00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:19.500
So, of course, they're all vile to each other and they end up being horrible to me.

286
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:21.180
I'll be back to mean girls again.

287
00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:28.799
Yeah, she drove from her house in Switzerland and was only available for the one day, so everything she shoots is just on that date, yeah.

288
00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.680
She is terrific. and she's quick?

289
00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:33.240
Really?

290
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.599
And the young girl they have playing Coruna.

291
00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:39.240
She gives an excellent performance as well.

292
00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:41.700
Actually, I really don't think she does.

293
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:42.539
No, really?

294
00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:45.900
high school girl acting.

295
00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:47.880
She is a high school girl.

296
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:53.700
But you see, she reminds me of my cousin I had at that age who babysat me.

297
00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.920
So for me, it's a completely realistic performance.

298
00:21:55.980 --> 00:22:05.519
I find her sensitive and vulnerable and emotions seem to be genuine, especially when she's touching their faces. obedience over and over again.

299
00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:07.319
Oh, that's scary though.

300
00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:08.220
That is so scary.

301
00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.339
Because, you know, it presents modern, isn't it?

302
00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.400
It presents the idea that she's a telepath.

303
00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:29.400
But that means she could also be influenced by the thoughts of others as well as read them without it, without us having to say, without, you know, giving the doctor the line of, oh, so you can be influenced by the thoughts of others as well as reap, you know, we're not in expositional hell yet.

304
00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.460
Although we haven't got to a 7 fathers yet, have we?

305
00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:33.480
I love that too.

306
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:34.440
Oh, sweet.

307
00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:38.039
That's very sweet, especially Todd's reaction to that.

308
00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:39.960
That is the character of God.

309
00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.400
This is going to get confusing.

310
00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:43.559
I think we should just keep on calling a neris.

311
00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:44.819
Speaking of...

312
00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:46.200
I'd like to think it's called Todd Nero.

313
00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:51.359
I'd like to think it's a cultural thing and that's just part of the tribe is that you can have seven.

314
00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:53.279
I mean, who knows about their reproductive cycles.

315
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:54.900
Cats can have several fathers.

316
00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.619
Do you know that?

317
00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:56.460
Yes, perhaps she's a cat.

318
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:02.640
Now, I just like the fact that she thinks that it's sad that the not we only have one father. each.

319
00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:07.559
I think that it's her reaction to our arrangement, which is quite lovely.

320
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:13.980
As good as Tegan is in this one and Adrix, you know, Matthew Waterhouse isn't bad either.

321
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.220
He's a great acting coach to Richard Todd, isn't he?

322
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:33.000
So for those of you who don't know, dear listeners, Peter Davidson, Janet Fielding, and Sarah Sutton dined out on the convention circuit for years talking about how Matthew Waterhouse once walked up to Richard Todd, who had a bloody Oscar.

323
00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:34.079
Thank you.

324
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:42.240
And spoke to him about camera technique and how to, and apparently she was great great.

325
00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:43.319
Richard Todd just said, oh, really?

326
00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:43.859
Oh, thank you.

327
00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.279
Thank you.

328
00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:51.839
Now, Matthew's version of that is he doesn't actually remember the conversation, but he says, you know what?

329
00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:55.380
If I did do that, I'm a complete pillock.

330
00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:11.099
But he says, I think what is more likely is that if Richard was asking a question I knew the answer to about the multicamera setup, I might have jumped in with that answer, but he says, look, I don't remember, but if I did that, yeah, Mia Culpa, I was an idiot.

331
00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.660
Other people do remember.

332
00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:19.559
And the story goes that Richard Todd was being dissembling and self-effacing and say, well, you know, I haven't actually done a lot of television.

333
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.519
And he actually hadn't.

334
00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:22.980
He hadn't done television since, I think, was it A for Andromeda?

335
00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:24.960
He dumps SF back in the 60s.

336
00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:27.480
So yeah, he's a film actor and a stage actor.

337
00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:36.180
So, so he was being sort of polite and also trying to bring himself down to everyone else's level because, you know, it's Richard Dodd. easing himself out of a spitfire.

338
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:43.559
So you've then got, you've then got Matthew, right, just as an eager young puppy wood dashing up and saying, oh, well, you do this and you do this and you do this.

339
00:24:43.619 --> 00:24:47.579
And it was actually that everyone else on the set was being a bit arsy and enjoying the moment.

340
00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:50.759
Matthew was actually being reasonably polite and Todd took it that way.

341
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:58.920
I've read the book, and my memory, and I may be misremembering this, is that Matthew says that it was a joke.

342
00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:00.240
Oh, okay.

343
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:04.319
You're probably more accurate than I, because I think I'm quoting a DM interview from 20 years ago.

344
00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:05.700
Well, he might have lost.

345
00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:06.420
Well, he would story.

346
00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:07.140
Yeah, he did.

347
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:13.559
That's not what I was saying, you know, I'm all for gossip, so let's just... for its own sake.

348
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.839
On the topic of Nerris, though.

349
00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:16.500
Nerris.

350
00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.700
You know, you've got, you've got Janet, you've got Matthew.

351
00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:26.940
You've got Nissa in the Tartis on the Delta Wave Augmenta, or have we noticed from the parting of the waves in the new series?

352
00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:31.740
The Delta Wave is a device you in them when you want to unlock someone you don't like in a room for a whole episode.

353
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:33.480
It is too, isn't it?

354
00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:41.940
Did you feel as a little boy, both of you, that you were actually, this is, literally just come back to me now, this memory.

355
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.559
So there you go, spooky moment.

356
00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:47.700
I felt a bit gutted that Neris didn't join them.

357
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.240
Yes.

358
00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:52.500
You know, I wanted her to go on board and they could have just left Tegan where she was.

359
00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:53.579
She will come back.

360
00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:57.960
She is in an episode of Torchwood called Something Blue, where...

361
00:25:58.019 --> 00:25:58.799
She wears those stockings again.

362
00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:02.519
No, I think she's is she Reese's mother?

363
00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:03.480
Yeah, I think so.

364
00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:11.640
But also there's gonna be gonna be a fair share of characters across the 5th doctor's era where you go, you're far more interesting than the companions we have.

365
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:12.420
Can we have you?

366
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:13.440
Oh, wait, no, you're staying.

367
00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:15.960
Well, the bar's not very high, is it?

368
00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:17.339
No, no, it isn't.

369
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.680
Just something we won't fight as much.

370
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:21.539
A grown-up as well.

371
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:38.339
You know, like a competent grown-up who is, there is an attempt with Tegan, isn't there, to give the doctor a foil, you know, she's sort of strong and stuff, but because the performance at this point is so weak and because the writing is so poor. you know, it doesn't really come off.

372
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:40.319
But Neres and the doctor are wonderful together.

373
00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:41.579
Yeah, just terrific.

374
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:42.900
I'm adult to work with.

375
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:50.700
Yeah, they have their disagreements and it doesn't descend into a screaming match, you know, which will be a problem for the rest of the time Eric Seywood is on the program.

376
00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.279
Yeah, we can't actually blame anyone else.

377
00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:54.539
It's certainly not the directors.

378
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:58.079
But it does feel as if we've got kids doing dress ups, playing tartars.

379
00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.200
It doesn't help, the costume thing doesn't help.

380
00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:03.240
That becomes more relevant.

381
00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.859
They are action figures.

382
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:06.599
That's literally why they're in those costumes.

383
00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:08.940
Except we never bloody mean, never got them.

384
00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:09.839
Not even now.

385
00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:10.680
No?

386
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.619
Isn't there a Tegan season 19, actually?

387
00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:14.579
There is not.

388
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.119
I think that might be because Janet just looked...

389
00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.579
And you want to know something very uncharitable?

390
00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:21.059
Yes.

391
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.960
Are you sure, Richard?

392
00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:30.480
Doctor Who action figure customises find it very easy to make an adric.

393
00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.799
Out of the Laszlo from Daleks in Manhattan.

394
00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:35.880
Oh, pig boy.

395
00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:39.660
There's so much we could add on to that.

396
00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.220
Do they keep the tail?

397
00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:49.559
Oh, I was about to say, I did try to buy a few Waterhouse a drink once, but I didn't.

398
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:50.460
I lost my nerve.

399
00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.200
I think I bought Richard Franklin a drink.

400
00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:53.460
Hmm.

401
00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:56.220
Therein lies a fishing tail.

402
00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:03.779
No, you see, I was safe because I was there with my friend Craig, who is quite unreasonably attractive.

403
00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.299
Just dressed as an extra from the underwater menace.

404
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.099
At times.

405
00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.460
I haven't got a Richard Franklin action figure either.

406
00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.619
What did the kids say about adapting, though?

407
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.819
What can you use for?

408
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.839
You know what?

409
00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:18.539
I think it's very telling that the upcoming It's a sushi?

410
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:38.039
The upcoming Titan comics, 3rd doctor, photo cover figure features John Bertwee, Elizabeth Sladen, Katie Manning, Carolyn John, Nicholas Courtney, and John Levine. cruel, isn't it?

411
00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:39.960
Damaris Hyman?

412
00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:42.660
No.

413
00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:47.700
But Olive Hawthorne, White Witch is coming soon from BBV production.

414
00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:48.839
And an action figure.

415
00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.900
I want my Tegan action figure.

416
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.619
I do.

417
00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.539
So unfair, isn't it?

418
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.779
Her hair was insured for $10,000.

419
00:28:58.380 --> 00:28:59.339
Did you know that?

420
00:28:59.400 --> 00:28:59.880
Really?

421
00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.740
couldn't they have just bought another one?

422
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:05.759
Couldn't they have just stapled another rat to her head in Janet's own words?

423
00:29:05.819 --> 00:29:08.099
Yeah, they're terrible, their extensions.

424
00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:15.839
I mean, it was really, it reached its absolute nadir in Fort of Doomsday, where she's got sort of Catherine Shell style side there.

425
00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.880
It's still pretty terrible. settled down by the end of the season.

426
00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:27.779
I just love that the mauve just keeps washing up and they just paint it all under a chin and just started the eyelash and just paint them all up to the eyebrows.

427
00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.579
I can just paint a whole freaking head purple.

428
00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:33.900
Boone's bottom, Janet.

429
00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:35.339
I actually love you.

430
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:36.299
I've still got the bruise.

431
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:41.759
One thing we haven't discussed is the snake trapped in the mirrors.

432
00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:42.420
Oh do we have to?

433
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:43.440
Oh, yeah, we do.

434
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:49.619
This isn't a good ending because it doesn't really come out of anywhere no one really learns anything.

435
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.920
It's just a bit of magic about mirrors and some apology and stuff.

436
00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:54.779
So it's Because we need to have a cliffhanger.

437
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:55.859
It's not a great ending.

438
00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:03.660
And we watched this in Doctor Who Club at school and I was a little bit apprehensive about the giant plastic snake.

439
00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:05.759
You didn't show them the CGI?

440
00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:13.440
I did show them the CGI alternative afterwards, but I did want them to, because the CGI alternative, which is on the DVD, is an alternative track.

441
00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:14.640
And it's terrible as well.

442
00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:15.660
I think so too.

443
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.279
I actually think it's worse.

444
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:23.279
It's much less fun than Aras wrestling with a rubber snake and then...

445
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:25.319
Which is actually very dawn trench.

446
00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:32.039
And Jennifer Saunders having a fight on the set of lucky bitches and Jackie Collins, isn't it?

447
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:35.039
It's really, I mean, it...

448
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:42.180
And they surround the snake with mirrors, but the snake is so tall that it can't actually see the mirror.

449
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.720
No. by the end, it's...

450
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:48.900
But it is, like, who cares?

451
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.200
You know, like that's a sort of dodgy effect.

452
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:57.480
I mean, we haven't mentioned the studio floor kind of listlessly strewn with leaves.

453
00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.980
It's the 80s.

454
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:00.240
I wouldn't even say it's Doctor Who.

455
00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:00.900
Every show did that.

456
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:01.859
It is.

457
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:03.299
I mean, but it does look terrible.

458
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:11.160
And if you compare this forest to say Campbell or Zita Minor, or even God help us, Khan.

459
00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:13.259
You know, it's less...

460
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:14.759
Kemble is amazing in David.

461
00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:15.299
Oh, my God.

462
00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.619
No, that's what I'm saying. those three.

463
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:18.240
Isn't it extraordinary?

464
00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:22.740
But again, that's pure obscure that's being able to use monochrome, Doctor Who looks so much better.

465
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:23.819
Yeah, well hello.

466
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.579
But this set is not as good as that.

467
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.740
The snake looks terrible.

468
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.420
The tattoo snake that crawls from one arm to another is awful as well.

469
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.700
Arris's teeth, Arris's teeth.

470
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.579
Janet Mary Morris's head.

471
00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:44.880
But those are all expensive special effects that don't quite come off, I think.

472
00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:45.839
But who cares?

473
00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:46.559
It's Doctor Who.

474
00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:47.220
It's well written.

475
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.539
It's got some great acting.

476
00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:51.119
Peter gets called an idiot, and that always makes me feel good.

477
00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:54.480
The kids roared with laughter every time Mary Morris called.

478
00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:55.859
Shut up, bitch.

479
00:31:57.420 --> 00:31:59.640
See, we're laughing now.

480
00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:04.559
It is my favourite of this season, but not for the visuals, just for the fake.

481
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:05.339
Look, this is the point.

482
00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.740
You can have lots of favourites of this season and lots of reasons.

483
00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:08.460
Reasons.

484
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:10.859
This is the most varied season so far.

485
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:14.579
And we're only 3 stories in, that I've seen in Doctor Who, for golly gosh, how long?

486
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.819
I think they tend to agree with season 18 as well.

487
00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:23.339
But this is very, but I think this is just the strongest because it's got the best guest cast.

488
00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:24.539
It's well written.

489
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:27.180
It's a star cast as far as Doctor Who's considered, yeah.

490
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.960
And it is well directed, despite the odd production floor.

491
00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.359
Look, I think the script is great.

492
00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:34.799
I think the performances are great.

493
00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:43.680
You know, yeah, production values, but as we've said so many times before, if you're going to write off Doctor Who with the production values, we wouldn't have made 80 up to episodes of these podcasts so far.

494
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.259
But I, which we up to now?

495
00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:49.019
Are we bringing out a magazine?

496
00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:52.799
The Tom retrospective was 75.

497
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:58.980
So this must be 78, I would say, or no, 79, including K9 and Company.

498
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:09.660
But I would like to leave this with a quotation from the discontinuity guide where they talk about goofs in the story and they say, we would mention the snake, but it's the reason why fanboys rate this story so little.

499
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:16.019
If the Mara is a creature of false fears, then it's apt that it's real form is a poor origami monster.

500
00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.259
I think we should have a mock fight.

501
00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:44.460
Well, dear listeners, as we take off from Diva Loca, we're still trying to get Tegan back home, and we'll be back next week for the visitation.

502
00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:50.640
Until then, please find us online at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

503
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:57.660
Over on Bondfinger, James Bond is also wrestling with fake snakes during the Roger Moore era, so you can find that on Bondfinger.com.

504
00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.940
Way to speak of James Sing.

505
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.380
Popular in her day.

506
00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:02.460
Poor Catherine Shell.

507
00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:07.980
Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

508
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:12.539
I'm probably doing some crazy stuff possibly involving a snake.

509
00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:15.599
Who knows on Doctor Who in 10 seconds on YouTube as well.

510
00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:20.519
Please come back next week and share us with everyone in You Know and Love.

511
00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:24.840
And until then, may none of your purple snakes enlarge when presented with a circle of mirrors.

512
00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:26.340
Thank you very much for listening and good night.

513
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:27.179
Good night.

514
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.619
Good everything.

515
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:29.639
Did you just say that?

516
00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:43.079
That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

517
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:51.000
This episode, Kinda Lingers, was recorded on the 28th of May, the next episode will be released on July 3rd.

518
00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:57.480
Doctor Who will return to political commentary in the 1st story of series 10, the Brexit of Paladon.

519
00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:05.579
Really?

520
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.000
Well done.

521
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:11.039
Mescently.

522
00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:12.840
Are we still doing phrasing?