WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:16:17 1 00:00:30.660 --> 00:00:35.100 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety 2 00:00:35.100 --> 00:00:37.920 the only Doctor Who podcast coming to you live from the Dark 3 00:00:37.920 --> 00:00:38.939 Places of the Inside. 4 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:39.960 I'm Brendan. 5 00:00:40.020 --> 00:00:40.619 I'm Nathan. 6 00:00:40.740 --> 00:00:42.840 I'm Steve Strange, Fading to Grey. 7 00:00:43.380 --> 00:00:45.479 I don't know what that means. 8 00:00:45.780 --> 00:00:47.520 They're with us. 9 00:00:47.579 --> 00:00:51.000 And we're about to discover if paradise is a bit too green for us 10 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.840 as we embark on a doctrine story, properly written by King Bush 11 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:55.320 Kinder. 12 00:01:04.980 --> 00:01:07.379 It's not written by King. 13 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:09.420 It's good. 14 00:01:09.480 --> 00:01:11.640 Well, this is... 15 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:14.280 This is actually the word for world is forest, isn't it? 16 00:01:14.340 --> 00:01:17.819 This is another one of those Leguin books, or it's Heart of 17 00:01:17.819 --> 00:01:20.939 Darkness, if you like, or it's the book I've got around my hot 18 00:01:20.939 --> 00:01:21.299 little hand. 19 00:01:21.359 --> 00:01:24.120 Uh, Chinua, Achebe's Things Fall Apart. 20 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:26.459 Or it's the face of evil, or it's the Daleks. 21 00:01:28.140 --> 00:01:29.879 But what is it? 22 00:01:29.939 --> 00:01:34.079 It kind of lingers as it does in your memory, this episode, doesn't 23 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:34.260 it? 24 00:01:34.739 --> 00:01:40.260 I think it's kinder as many an ABC announcer would call it. 25 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:42.480 I think this is the best of the season. 26 00:01:42.540 --> 00:01:43.739 Definitely it is. 27 00:01:43.799 --> 00:01:46.379 High concept and writing and all the rest of it. 28 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:47.760 And performances. as well. 29 00:01:47.819 --> 00:01:48.299 Yes. 30 00:01:48.359 --> 00:01:51.239 Unless you're under 10, in which case it's the most silly boring 31 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:51.900 thing you've ever seen. 32 00:01:52.019 --> 00:01:55.620 Well, it came 4th or something in the Doctor Who poll immediately 33 00:01:55.620 --> 00:01:58.379 afterwards, the Doctor Who magazine poll, is it a season? 34 00:01:58.439 --> 00:02:01.379 Botty 18 year olds who thought Time Flight was the greatest Doctor 35 00:02:01.379 --> 00:02:02.760 Who story in living memory. 36 00:02:02.760 --> 00:02:03.239 Yeah. 37 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:06.060 I have to say, I loved this at an under 10. 38 00:02:06.239 --> 00:02:10.319 You know, it was another one of those ones where maybe I didn't 39 00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:14.639 necessarily understand everything like Legopolis, but I was swept 40 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:15.479 up in imagery. 41 00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:20.159 You know, I didn't have that vocabulary then to explain what I 42 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:20.759 enjoyed about it. 43 00:02:20.819 --> 00:02:22.379 But I think that's what it was. 44 00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:26.759 This is where we get to Joseph Campbell, talking about, again, in 45 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.120 his hero, having a 1000 faces or his creative mythology series 46 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:34.020 which is an encyclopaedic discourse, where you don't need to know 47 00:02:34.020 --> 00:02:38.039 the antecedents, because you're born with them, and the stories 48 00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:40.379 not just the Jungian being born with them, but the stories are 49 00:02:40.379 --> 00:02:43.919 repeated in so many different levels all throughout your life, that 50 00:02:43.919 --> 00:02:47.819 when you actually get visage doing their video, fade to gray 51 00:02:47.819 --> 00:02:51.240 looking exactly like what happens to Tegan, when she sits alone 52 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:56.280 under the plastic mobile, going off into a darker unconscious, we 53 00:02:56.280 --> 00:02:57.479 can all do the accent, yes. 54 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.800 But it acts exactly like an 80s video, and all the better for that 55 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:07.020 because this season, not actually since Billy and Paddy have we 56 00:03:07.020 --> 00:03:07.259 had. 57 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:10.800 Oh, okay, John as well with his beautiful glam rock stuff. 58 00:03:10.860 --> 00:03:14.879 Have we had something that's so poignant, that's so absolutely of 59 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:15.599 its era? 60 00:03:15.659 --> 00:03:19.800 And that's, I think, why people come to it now and, you know, I 61 00:03:19.800 --> 00:03:23.340 had to say there was, I was doing a lot of toddlike peeling the 62 00:03:23.340 --> 00:03:26.819 plastic off the boxes to watch this series, but including this 63 00:03:26.819 --> 00:03:27.360 one. 64 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.120 But yeah, there's a hell of a lot more to it. 65 00:03:30.180 --> 00:03:31.080 It's a lot more enjoyable. 66 00:03:31.139 --> 00:03:33.599 Something I never picked up on as a child. 67 00:03:33.659 --> 00:03:38.219 Again, it didn't affect my enjoyment of it, is the 3 figures 68 00:03:38.219 --> 00:03:42.180 Teagan meets in her dream world, of course, are representative of 69 00:03:42.180 --> 00:03:44.759 the doctor, Nyssa, and Adrick. 70 00:03:44.819 --> 00:03:49.860 And also, interestingly, representative of Tegan's lack of 71 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:53.759 scientific knowledge because, you know, they're constantly talking 72 00:03:53.759 --> 00:03:58.139 around her and saying things that don't make any sense to her. 73 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:01.620 So it's interesting that we're seeing the other characters through 74 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:03.180 Tegan's perspective for those things. 75 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:05.939 It is definitely a Tegan vehicle, isn't it? 76 00:04:06.000 --> 00:04:10.080 Even though she's kind of out of it in a way that nicely. 77 00:04:10.139 --> 00:04:12.539 There are so many reflections and mirrors within mirrors of this. 78 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:19.199 Tegan is also playing the, the, uh, the ying to the yang of, um, of 79 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:24.660 uh, Nyssa, who's comatose in the car, in the car, sounds okay. 80 00:04:24.779 --> 00:04:29.100 So that scene that you were referencing, Brandon, with those 3 81 00:04:29.100 --> 00:04:32.699 characters, Tegan comes around the corner of a sort of structure 82 00:04:32.699 --> 00:04:36.660 and sees the 2 characters playing a board game, which is exactly 83 00:04:36.660 --> 00:04:39.180 how the episode starts with... 84 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:40.139 Exactly. 85 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:44.459 With that caravan like structured looking like a deconstructed 86 00:04:44.459 --> 00:04:44.939 TARD. 87 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:45.480 Yeah. 88 00:04:45.540 --> 00:04:47.879 And then clearly the other character. 89 00:04:47.939 --> 00:04:51.060 Yeah, so who's Dr. Duka similar. 90 00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:55.800 Those characters are named after the 3 marks of existence in 91 00:04:55.800 --> 00:04:56.339 Buddhism. 92 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:03.420 So, uh, Duka, Anasa, and so, um, suffering or dissatisfaction or 93 00:05:03.420 --> 00:05:11.160 stress, um, impermanence, and, um, not self, and Polly Wright 94 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:11.399 obviously. 95 00:05:11.459 --> 00:05:12.240 Anika. 96 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.379 And yeah, yeah, the bloke is call that though. 97 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:20.939 So, sorry, is the bloke is the bloke called Not Self? 98 00:05:21.899 --> 00:05:27.660 No, he's called he's called impermanence on she's called not 99 00:05:27.660 --> 00:05:28.079 self. 100 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:30.300 So Adric is impermanent. 101 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:34.620 Nissa is not self because she is the woman in the show who is not 102 00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:35.100 Tegan. 103 00:05:35.459 --> 00:05:38.459 And the doctor is suffering because he's already died. 104 00:05:38.819 --> 00:05:42.660 But he's also her suffering and her torment. 105 00:05:42.779 --> 00:05:46.740 But you realise that Kinder, this story is also our very podcast. 106 00:05:46.860 --> 00:05:53.100 We are also kinder in that we have Brendan, our own Stuart Fell 107 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:57.480 Lee Corns, the fool who brings enlightenment for us all with his 108 00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:57.779 jerks. 109 00:05:57.839 --> 00:05:59.519 Todd is Mary Morris, obviously. 110 00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:01.259 He loves marrying Horace. 111 00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:02.759 He's been raving about how great she is. 112 00:06:02.819 --> 00:06:05.699 Yes, and bone structure and everything. 113 00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:09.720 Nathan, again, just sits in the semi-darkness, having a tired hiss 114 00:06:09.720 --> 00:06:12.779 at anything that displeases him, that passes that isn't a 115 00:06:12.779 --> 00:06:13.740 pantodromedry. 116 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:17.819 And I guess that makes me Neris Hughes. 117 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:19.439 Oh, Neris. 118 00:06:20.339 --> 00:06:24.899 And I'm the one doing exposition-y type questions and talking 119 00:06:24.899 --> 00:06:26.399 about German expressionism. 120 00:06:27.300 --> 00:06:31.920 And you're the one you're the one who also believes that things 121 00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:33.899 are not necessarily as they appear. 122 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:36.480 You go deeper beneath the surface to look for the hidden 123 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:36.899 communication. 124 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:40.199 But in blue stockings and a pair of glasses and a white coat 125 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.120 because I'm the Velma of this episode. 126 00:06:42.180 --> 00:06:44.220 I was wondering why you were wearing that. 127 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:45.839 Why do they do this? 128 00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:47.759 Can we talk about directing for a moment? 129 00:06:47.819 --> 00:06:48.839 What's going on? 130 00:06:48.899 --> 00:06:52.019 Oh, we haven't even talked about the, okay, we've touched on the 131 00:06:52.019 --> 00:06:53.939 inside world and we've got to go back to this. 132 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:58.319 But while we're talking about cast and performances, we've got 133 00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.660 Richard Todd, and we've got Simon Rouse. 134 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:02.040 I think there are many reasons. 135 00:07:02.100 --> 00:07:03.420 This story is very good. 136 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:06.000 Well, obviously, I mean, that's just me and apotheosis, but 137 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.540 Richard Todd, who's looking well fit? 138 00:07:09.600 --> 00:07:10.139 Thank you. 139 00:07:10.199 --> 00:07:14.040 Still can manage to squeeze himself out of a Spitfire cockpit with 140 00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:15.180 alacrity, I'd say. 141 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:19.500 That scene where he's delivering dialogue while doing push-ups is 142 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:21.180 just terrifically great. 143 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:24.660 And Simon Rouse is just one, if this is... 144 00:07:24.660 --> 00:07:26.160 We haven't had this for a while. 145 00:07:26.220 --> 00:07:28.139 This is more hitting on other 80s shows. 146 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:29.879 We have a truly mad villain. 147 00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:30.899 There is no villain in this. 148 00:07:30.959 --> 00:07:33.420 The closest thing we have is a disturbed young man. 149 00:07:33.480 --> 00:07:33.899 Yeah. 150 00:07:33.899 --> 00:07:36.720 And now it's not even Matthew Wilderhouse. 151 00:07:36.779 --> 00:07:40.560 I will say, though, that as much as Rod enjoyed this story, he 152 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:42.420 actually hated Hindel and Sanders. 153 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:46.500 He just couldn't get his head around why these characters were 154 00:07:46.500 --> 00:07:47.279 behaving in this way. 155 00:07:47.519 --> 00:07:49.920 Even with... 156 00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:52.860 He doesn't listen. never hear this. 157 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:57.240 He just said he didn't like their stupidity. 158 00:07:57.300 --> 00:07:58.259 And I tried to press him. 159 00:07:58.319 --> 00:07:58.980 Why? 160 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:00.779 And he's just like, no, they were just stupid. 161 00:08:00.839 --> 00:08:01.740 I said, but they were mad. 162 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:02.579 No, they were stupid. 163 00:08:02.639 --> 00:08:05.699 So, you know, it's interesting to hear the casual view of the mom 164 00:08:05.699 --> 00:08:06.120 thing. 165 00:08:06.180 --> 00:08:08.399 He still gave the story 7.5 out of 10. 166 00:08:08.579 --> 00:08:10.319 That's more than time gives it. 167 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:14.579 This story is, again, sort of like, why, I keep harping on why 168 00:08:14.579 --> 00:08:17.639 Doctor Who works because it's so, it's just about every other 169 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:21.120 story we've seen. in out of in outer literature. 170 00:08:21.180 --> 00:08:24.839 We already sort of vaguely touched on the Buddhism. 171 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:28.199 I don't think that there is as much Buddhism in it as people say 172 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:32.460 although there is the, you know, the Bava chakra, the wheel of 173 00:08:32.460 --> 00:08:37.080 life, the wheel that gets set in motion and that sort of 174 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:37.980 panafirs. 175 00:08:38.039 --> 00:08:40.980 Everyone kind of has parley names, all of that. 176 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:43.860 So there's a kind of, there is a superficial sort of Buddhist 177 00:08:43.860 --> 00:08:44.100 thing. 178 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:46.980 But there's also sort of themes from Christianity. 179 00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:51.120 I mean, you have a snake up a tree throwing apples at a young man 180 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:54.960 who lives this sedentic existence where he doesn't have to work 181 00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.320 where where food is provided off the trees. 182 00:08:58.379 --> 00:09:02.279 Janet was going to woke up with a bowl of apples at her feet. 183 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:06.000 Well, I think they do, they do give offerings to her while she's 184 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:06.360 drinking. 185 00:09:06.419 --> 00:09:09.179 Why the hell don't they just bloody wake her up instead of sitting 186 00:09:09.179 --> 00:09:09.899 garlands on her? 187 00:09:09.960 --> 00:09:12.720 They know you got, if anyone goes a bit nuts and things go wrong 188 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:14.399 if you lie under the mobile by yourself. 189 00:09:14.460 --> 00:09:19.019 No, they say they're dreaming of an unshared mind, so maybe they 190 00:09:19.019 --> 00:09:20.820 don't realise she's not telepathy. 191 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:23.580 So there's all of that sort of Christian imagery, and they talk 192 00:09:23.580 --> 00:09:26.759 about it being paradise and so on, and there's that sort of 193 00:09:26.759 --> 00:09:30.720 hilarious scene where Mareth Hughes is tempting the doctor between 194 00:09:30.720 --> 00:09:32.220 an Apple as well. 195 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:33.659 Which I think is terrific. 196 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.379 And then on top of that, you've got this fabulous binary between 197 00:09:37.379 --> 00:09:43.259 essentially, it's like a male hierarchy that's characterised by 198 00:09:43.259 --> 00:09:44.580 people shouting orders. 199 00:09:44.639 --> 00:09:48.240 It's characterised by plans to destroy things, and it's 200 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:50.279 characterised by building shelters. 201 00:09:50.340 --> 00:09:54.600 So you've got the dome, you've got the city, the cardboard city 202 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:56.220 that Hindle creates. 203 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:00.659 You've got the TSS, you know, boxes and shelters. 204 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.080 Even interacting with the world, you have to build a character, a 205 00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:05.159 false, false self. 206 00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:08.279 By contrast, you've got the Kinder who are explicitly said not to 207 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:10.860 build shelters because the temperature is so temperate. 208 00:10:10.980 --> 00:10:13.919 They don't have to work, the men don't have voice. 209 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:15.840 But they do have fillings. 210 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:16.860 They do have feelings. 211 00:10:16.980 --> 00:10:19.320 So they do, there is obviously higher culture. 212 00:10:19.379 --> 00:10:20.639 They still caring on this. 213 00:10:20.700 --> 00:10:21.299 Yeah, that's right. 214 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:26.580 Unless Dr. Todd has, you know, gone, oh, that's a bit nasty. 215 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:28.440 You've been eating a bit too many river fruit. 216 00:10:28.500 --> 00:10:29.940 Yeah, have you feeling? 217 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.039 So you have this contrast. 218 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:34.799 And what happens to the kinder is, of course, once Aris is 219 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:37.860 possessed by the Mara, the kinder start to turn into something 220 00:10:37.860 --> 00:10:42.059 that has hierarchy and build shelters and has men barking boards 221 00:10:42.059 --> 00:10:43.740 to destroy things. 222 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:45.419 You know, he'd build... 223 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:46.320 The boys, isn't it? 224 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:50.399 Yeah, so I think that that's really strong and that's all tied up 225 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:51.840 with themes of colonialism. 226 00:10:51.899 --> 00:10:55.440 You've got Sanders wearing a pith helmet, you know, saying if 227 00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.379 McKindra are so smart, why didn't they come and, you know, colonise 228 00:10:58.379 --> 00:10:58.679 us? 229 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:02.940 So I think that there's a lot going on and it isn't really a 230 00:11:02.940 --> 00:11:04.379 Buddhist parable. 231 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:05.820 No, it's a lot bigger than that. 232 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.360 And, you know, this one was mine, so I spent a bit of time looking 233 00:11:09.360 --> 00:11:12.059 at it and looking at the other things that it comes from. 234 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.500 I mentioned before, Chinoa, okay, these things full apart that 235 00:11:16.500 --> 00:11:17.519 came out in 1958. 236 00:11:17.700 --> 00:11:20.399 This sold 10000000 copies and this is my pick of the week. 237 00:11:20.460 --> 00:11:24.480 And the reason I think that this book actually talks about, Chris 238 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:25.500 Bailey was a lecturer. 239 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:28.980 He was famous for standing around, constantly smoking, talking to 240 00:11:28.980 --> 00:11:32.700 young people, kind of like we would if smoking was actually still 241 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:33.000 okay. 242 00:11:33.059 --> 00:11:37.080 But the thing for me for kinder is just what you're saying, society 243 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:41.940 art, culture, and the structure of these fine relationships that 244 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:46.139 we build between all of these things isn't always was, and always 245 00:11:46.139 --> 00:11:51.480 will be, fragile, and by its own nature failing, we build to 246 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:51.960 fail. 247 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:55.799 Even love dies as life passes. 248 00:11:55.860 --> 00:12:00.600 And this is about the internalisation of the narrative unto the 249 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:01.980 unfolding of self. 250 00:12:02.039 --> 00:12:06.899 So this is about how we deal with the flux and the anxiety and the 251 00:12:06.899 --> 00:12:11.340 grieving of, of failing, of destructuring. 252 00:12:11.399 --> 00:12:16.980 But then you have the women saying, the only 2 with voice, as it 253 00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:19.799 starts off, saying, it's a wheel, it turns. 254 00:12:19.860 --> 00:12:21.659 These things are always in progress. 255 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.600 All you can do is to sit back and contemplate. 256 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:25.740 And watch. 257 00:12:25.860 --> 00:12:28.980 That's the only way you can actually find sanity. 258 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.860 But then, the men will say, you allow that to happen, and there is 259 00:12:34.860 --> 00:12:37.200 chaos, there is destruction, and there is suffering, and there is 260 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:37.440 pain. 261 00:12:37.500 --> 00:12:39.779 This doesn't present an answer, this story. 262 00:12:39.899 --> 00:12:40.860 Because it can't. 263 00:12:41.399 --> 00:12:47.279 This would seem to be the 3rd story running, where things are 264 00:12:47.279 --> 00:12:52.019 perfectly fine, until someone tries to impose an external order 265 00:12:52.019 --> 00:12:52.620 upon them. 266 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:56.279 Or he's just the doctor is just the trips which are in this case 267 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:00.419 Tegan, for moving things to the next stage that they were going to 268 00:13:00.419 --> 00:13:01.019 come to anyway. 269 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:02.940 Oh, I don't necessarily mean the doctor. 270 00:13:03.059 --> 00:13:05.039 And his lot. 271 00:13:05.100 --> 00:13:07.259 I mean, the human colonists in this case. 272 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.659 A monarch in the previous story, and the master in the story 273 00:13:09.659 --> 00:13:10.259 before that. 274 00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:14.460 Now, you could, of course, argue that the master and Adric created 275 00:13:14.460 --> 00:13:17.879 Castrovalva, but Castroval was perfectly nice and happy and 276 00:13:17.879 --> 00:13:22.679 peaceful, until the master insists that it must serve its purpose 277 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:25.500 rather than just letting the people live out there, admittedly 278 00:13:25.500 --> 00:13:26.639 fictional existences. 279 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:32.820 Monarch is determined to invade Earth with these people he's 280 00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:39.240 kidnapped instead of, you know, allowing things like love or free 281 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:42.299 will, you know, he's constantly stabbing those things out. 282 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:43.320 He doesn't know what love is. 283 00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:46.919 He can just flip a switch and free will is gone. 284 00:13:46.980 --> 00:13:50.879 And, you know, here, you've got, as you were saying earlier 285 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:55.080 Sanders says that, you know, if they're so intelligent, why didn't 286 00:13:55.080 --> 00:13:55.980 they come and invade us? 287 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.980 Well, maybe they're more intelligent because they don't need to 288 00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:01.019 invade places. 289 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.940 Yeah, we we talked a lot about, you know, season 17 having an 290 00:14:05.940 --> 00:14:09.539 overarching theme about the individual. 291 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.120 And then, you know, we talked about how it kind of continued in 292 00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:15.240 season 18, and it has really just occurred to me listening to you 293 00:14:15.240 --> 00:14:18.779 talk, Richard, that maybe season 19 has a bit of that theme in it 294 00:14:18.779 --> 00:14:25.740 as well, had a bit of a bit of the idea of, What we define as 295 00:14:25.740 --> 00:14:29.759 progress as a capitalist culture and a consumerist culture may not 296 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:30.779 necessarily be so. 297 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:36.240 Yes, and you can say this, Doctor Who, and still be referencing 298 00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:37.559 the story on the TV. 299 00:14:37.620 --> 00:14:42.299 I just think it's such a shame that Tegan's Triptic, in her 300 00:14:42.299 --> 00:14:44.220 mindset, didn't win Eurovision that year. 301 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.139 They were so close. 302 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:48.659 They won the next year, didn't they? 303 00:14:49.259 --> 00:14:52.259 Who do we think was robbed in Eurovision this year? 304 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.019 I think So Hat from San Morito was robbed? 305 00:14:55.379 --> 00:14:57.659 It can't even afford socks. 306 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.940 He wasn't going to make a bit of one. 307 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:02.460 What do you want to say about the rest of the rest of this story 308 00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:02.759 then? 309 00:15:02.820 --> 00:15:04.980 We've gone into the deeper things. 310 00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:06.299 So what do we think about? 311 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.600 We haven't we haven't touched on the horny proposition that is. 312 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:10.980 Taking? 313 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:15.720 From the sublime to the ridiculous or vice versa in this case. 314 00:15:15.779 --> 00:15:19.259 She was terrible in fortitude say, and she's marvellous here. 315 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:21.240 Some crack cocaine. 316 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:23.879 Raunchy Madden. 317 00:15:23.940 --> 00:15:27.059 Marvellous might be a little bit of an overstatement. 318 00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:33.720 No Doctor Who companion since Sarah Jane in the hand of fear has 319 00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.080 had the opportunity to play this kind of evil character. 320 00:15:37.139 --> 00:15:39.120 You know, even Lala Ward in full circle. 321 00:15:39.179 --> 00:15:41.879 She wasn't the full-blown talking, scheming. 322 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:43.320 You know, she was acting on instinct. 323 00:15:43.379 --> 00:15:46.080 She was a beast, beastly beast. 324 00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:49.919 But, you know, I would actually say that Janet Fielding in this 325 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:52.980 surpasses Eldred possessed Sarah Jane. 326 00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:56.639 This is the 1st libidinous character we've actually had in Dr. Who 327 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:57.779 Vivian Fay doesn't count. 328 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:02.100 This is, I think, actually Professor Rumford probably only comes 329 00:16:02.100 --> 00:16:02.879 up as second. 330 00:16:02.940 --> 00:16:04.379 Okay, Lady Adrasta. 331 00:16:04.440 --> 00:16:06.960 But even then, not really. 332 00:16:07.019 --> 00:16:11.759 No, in fact, the torture's been passed quite strongly from Eileen 333 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.580 Way to Janet Fielding. 334 00:16:14.700 --> 00:16:15.899 It's not on fire. 335 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:21.720 Do you remember those red pills that you had to chew to make? 336 00:16:21.779 --> 00:16:22.440 Go to your parties. 337 00:16:22.620 --> 00:16:26.700 To determine whether you had plaque on your teeth or not? 338 00:16:26.700 --> 00:16:28.860 and they would turn the plot. 339 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:34.259 Like, so you have to, so you chew one of those before you become a 340 00:16:34.259 --> 00:16:35.220 Mara, obviously. 341 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:38.820 She, like, she's doing the accent as the Mara. 342 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.840 You know, she's trying to do an English accent and not doing it 343 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:43.200 very well. 344 00:16:43.259 --> 00:16:45.240 She's doing Gloria Swanson. 345 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.220 Pride of her career. 346 00:16:48.419 --> 00:16:53.340 Look, she is she is pretty funny and I actually think her best 347 00:16:53.340 --> 00:16:55.860 performance is in the scene where there's 2 Tegans and they're 348 00:16:55.860 --> 00:16:58.320 talking about their past and there's no edits there. 349 00:16:58.379 --> 00:16:59.759 So it's really well timed. 350 00:16:59.879 --> 00:17:02.340 Yeah, they managed to get it sort of happening really well. 351 00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:04.920 Yeah, and I think I think that's down to down. it's also down to 352 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.539 the fact we've got Peter Grimway directing again. 353 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:10.259 Yeah, we really have jumped from last story, haven't we? 354 00:17:10.380 --> 00:17:12.299 Yeah, and you know, a lot of people... 355 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:13.680 How does this whole thing play out? 356 00:17:13.740 --> 00:17:15.180 confused as much as she is? 357 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:15.420 Yes. 358 00:17:15.539 --> 00:17:18.960 A lot of people talk about, you know, how Graham Harper is the 359 00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:21.299 best classic series director and certainly I would say it's the 360 00:17:21.299 --> 00:17:26.880 most stylish, but in terms of balancing getting the show done and 361 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:30.359 getting it done with a certain level of style and with excellent 362 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:30.839 performances. 363 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.460 It's Peter Grimwade for my money. 364 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.640 Well, there's a very different style of directing justice, SF 365 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.599 traditionally, is seen about the externalising of theard to 366 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.599 culture, SF, is, you know, the promulgating of future in a hard 367 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:43.079 way. 368 00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:45.839 This is the internalising. 369 00:17:45.900 --> 00:17:49.559 This is more the fantasy writing or the stuff that had been around 370 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:53.940 for 10, 20 years post-tolken about what happens when you, when you 371 00:17:53.940 --> 00:17:57.779 go on a personal odyssey or an internal, internal journey. 372 00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:58.920 Can we use the J word? 373 00:17:58.980 --> 00:18:01.799 Chicken's definitely on a J word in this one. 374 00:18:02.819 --> 00:18:05.759 But also, I think when she comes out of it. 375 00:18:06.420 --> 00:18:10.680 When the Mara has left her and her performance for the rest of the 376 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:10.980 story. 377 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.980 You know, there's a lot of subtle emotions in there, there's 378 00:18:13.980 --> 00:18:16.319 remorse, there's guilt, there's fear. 379 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:22.140 And especially that wonderful bit towards the end where she's 380 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:25.559 looking at the Mara in complete disbelief and says it's, but it's 381 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:26.519 gone now, isn't it? 382 00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:27.779 And the doctor won't answer. 383 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:28.559 Yes. 384 00:18:28.619 --> 00:18:30.240 Well, it was her Mara. 385 00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:32.460 Wasn't anybody else's mine. 386 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.579 It was produced from her, and the Mara is always on the Mara. 387 00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:36.779 She calls it. 388 00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:39.420 There's a lovely song that they used to sing about that song. 389 00:18:39.539 --> 00:18:43.079 It's a lovely wartime song about the biggest marrow that I've ever 390 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:43.440 been seen. 391 00:18:43.500 --> 00:18:45.960 Holding a couple of prize maraths? 392 00:18:46.019 --> 00:18:49.319 Yes, she references that in the next story. 393 00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:51.539 Big marrow that was right inside my head. 394 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.660 Anyway, yes, yes, she does. 395 00:18:55.019 --> 00:18:56.880 Oh, dear. 396 00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.079 She does get a really terrible scene with Adrik, which it is... 397 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:02.700 To one extent. 398 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:05.339 Yeah, to literally the episode was underrunning. 399 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:06.119 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 400 00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:08.819 Oh, you know, that was recorded while I was shooting Earth Shock 401 00:19:08.819 --> 00:19:10.440 and it's all Sabord's writing. 402 00:19:10.500 --> 00:19:12.839 Yeah, see, it sounded like... 403 00:19:12.900 --> 00:19:18.480 And Bailey said, take my name off this because this is not, I have 404 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:21.000 to stand up in front of students and they will quote this at me. 405 00:19:21.059 --> 00:19:24.660 I actually have a career outside of your tortury prod. 406 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:25.680 Oh, he did. 407 00:19:25.740 --> 00:19:26.400 He didn't say that. 408 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:29.460 And so, well, we had to put it, it's excruciating. 409 00:19:29.460 --> 00:19:32.099 And that's the reason why it was much as we might say nice things 410 00:19:32.099 --> 00:19:35.579 about Mr. Seward, if you want to say things that are nice and nice 411 00:19:35.579 --> 00:19:36.299 to say, right? 412 00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:38.220 Well, he also wrote that scene. 413 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:42.900 And look at how at how at odds it is, with the delicacy that's 414 00:19:42.900 --> 00:19:44.099 going on in the rest of this story. 415 00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:47.819 And it just, gosh, just doesn't sit. 416 00:19:47.880 --> 00:19:49.680 There's literally no point to it at all. 417 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.619 No, they're just rehearsing plot points, like they're describing 418 00:19:52.619 --> 00:19:55.259 what's been happening in previous scenes, but we've just watched 419 00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:59.700 those scenes, you know, and so all it is is just fake manufactured 420 00:19:59.700 --> 00:20:04.019 conflict on a single set, it has nothing going for it, and it's 421 00:20:04.019 --> 00:20:06.660 going to increasingly become a feature of the program. 422 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:09.000 And there's 10 minutes cut out of this story. 423 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:10.200 Is it on the video? 424 00:20:10.259 --> 00:20:11.460 Did you bother? 425 00:20:11.519 --> 00:20:12.119 mean, did you watch it? 426 00:20:12.299 --> 00:20:14.640 I believe there are deleted scenes. 427 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.400 Yeah, none of those scenes could be pushed back into part four 428 00:20:17.400 --> 00:20:17.700 obviously. 429 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:23.220 Speaking of part 3 slash part four, There is that the beautiful 430 00:20:23.220 --> 00:20:25.380 dream sequence with all the clocks. 431 00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:29.579 And, you know, was what was what we saw real or imagined. 432 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:29.940 Yes. 433 00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:33.299 Oh, you know, that's chilling, chilling stuff. 434 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:35.579 I mean, this is another one that scared me as a goof, but it was a 435 00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:36.539 good kind of scary. 436 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:41.099 And the best moment as a cliphanger that we didn't actually get 437 00:20:41.099 --> 00:20:44.400 was that clock that falls into the column and the estate boys 438 00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:47.759 spent half a day rigging it up, shot, it was perfect, and then the 439 00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.400 texts on the studio, said, no, 10 PM nights off. 440 00:20:50.460 --> 00:20:53.819 And that was a very big letter up to 6th floor. 441 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:54.599 Yes. 442 00:20:54.599 --> 00:20:58.619 However, I do think the white out on Mary Morris's face is very 443 00:20:58.619 --> 00:20:59.519 effective as well. 444 00:21:00.539 --> 00:21:02.640 She shot that all in one day. 445 00:21:02.700 --> 00:21:07.319 She drove, get this, drove from her house in a, probably in a, in 446 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.680 a white mini moke with a frilly top because she was the best 447 00:21:10.680 --> 00:21:12.420 number 2 in the prisoner of all time. 448 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:13.440 Dance of the Dead, I believe. 449 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:16.079 It's actually kind of, it's the women's episode. 450 00:21:16.140 --> 00:21:18.480 So, of course, they're all vile to each other and they end up 451 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:19.500 being horrible to me. 452 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:21.180 I'll be back to mean girls again. 453 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:24.240 Yeah, she drove from her house in Switzerland and was only 454 00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:28.140 available for the one day, so everything she shoots is just on 455 00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:28.799 that date, yeah. 456 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:31.680 She is terrific. and she's quick? 457 00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:33.240 Really? 458 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.599 And the young girl they have playing Coruna. 459 00:21:36.660 --> 00:21:39.240 She gives an excellent performance as well. 460 00:21:39.299 --> 00:21:41.700 Actually, I really don't think she does. 461 00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:42.539 No, really? 462 00:21:43.079 --> 00:21:45.900 high school girl acting. 463 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:47.880 She is a high school girl. 464 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.980 But you see, she reminds me of my cousin I had at that age who 465 00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:53.700 babysat me. 466 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:55.920 So for me, it's a completely realistic performance. 467 00:21:55.980 --> 00:22:00.900 I find her sensitive and vulnerable and emotions seem to be 468 00:22:00.900 --> 00:22:04.859 genuine, especially when she's touching their faces. obedience 469 00:22:04.859 --> 00:22:05.519 over and over again. 470 00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:07.319 Oh, that's scary though. 471 00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:08.220 That is so scary. 472 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.339 Because, you know, it presents modern, isn't it? 473 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:14.400 It presents the idea that she's a telepath. 474 00:22:14.460 --> 00:22:17.759 But that means she could also be influenced by the thoughts of 475 00:22:17.759 --> 00:22:21.240 others as well as read them without it, without us having to say 476 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:23.700 without, you know, giving the doctor the line of, oh, so you can 477 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:26.940 be influenced by the thoughts of others as well as reap, you know 478 00:22:26.940 --> 00:22:29.400 we're not in expositional hell yet. 479 00:22:29.460 --> 00:22:32.460 Although we haven't got to a 7 fathers yet, have we? 480 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:33.480 I love that too. 481 00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:34.440 Oh, sweet. 482 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:38.039 That's very sweet, especially Todd's reaction to that. 483 00:22:38.099 --> 00:22:39.960 That is the character of God. 484 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:41.400 This is going to get confusing. 485 00:22:41.460 --> 00:22:43.559 I think we should just keep on calling a neris. 486 00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:44.819 Speaking of... 487 00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:46.200 I'd like to think it's called Todd Nero. 488 00:22:46.259 --> 00:22:49.259 I'd like to think it's a cultural thing and that's just part of 489 00:22:49.259 --> 00:22:51.359 the tribe is that you can have seven. 490 00:22:51.420 --> 00:22:53.279 I mean, who knows about their reproductive cycles. 491 00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:54.900 Cats can have several fathers. 492 00:22:54.960 --> 00:22:55.619 Do you know that? 493 00:22:55.680 --> 00:22:56.460 Yes, perhaps she's a cat. 494 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.839 Now, I just like the fact that she thinks that it's sad that the 495 00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:02.640 not we only have one father. each. 496 00:23:02.700 --> 00:23:06.599 I think that it's her reaction to our arrangement, which is quite 497 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:07.559 lovely. 498 00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:12.299 As good as Tegan is in this one and Adrix, you know, Matthew 499 00:23:12.299 --> 00:23:13.980 Waterhouse isn't bad either. 500 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.220 He's a great acting coach to Richard Todd, isn't he? 501 00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:22.319 So for those of you who don't know, dear listeners, Peter Davidson 502 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.140 Janet Fielding, and Sarah Sutton dined out on the convention 503 00:23:25.140 --> 00:23:30.119 circuit for years talking about how Matthew Waterhouse once walked 504 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:33.000 up to Richard Todd, who had a bloody Oscar. 505 00:23:33.000 --> 00:23:34.079 Thank you. 506 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:41.339 And spoke to him about camera technique and how to, and apparently 507 00:23:41.339 --> 00:23:42.240 she was great great. 508 00:23:42.299 --> 00:23:43.319 Richard Todd just said, oh, really? 509 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:43.859 Oh, thank you. 510 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:44.279 Thank you. 511 00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:49.980 Now, Matthew's version of that is he doesn't actually remember the 512 00:23:49.980 --> 00:23:51.839 conversation, but he says, you know what? 513 00:23:51.900 --> 00:23:55.380 If I did do that, I'm a complete pillock. 514 00:23:55.440 --> 00:24:01.259 But he says, I think what is more likely is that if Richard was 515 00:24:01.259 --> 00:24:05.279 asking a question I knew the answer to about the multicamera setup 516 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.279 I might have jumped in with that answer, but he says, look, I 517 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:10.859 don't remember, but if I did that, yeah, Mia Culpa, I was an 518 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:11.099 idiot. 519 00:24:11.160 --> 00:24:12.660 Other people do remember. 520 00:24:12.779 --> 00:24:16.740 And the story goes that Richard Todd was being dissembling and 521 00:24:16.740 --> 00:24:18.839 self-effacing and say, well, you know, I haven't actually done a 522 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:19.559 lot of television. 523 00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:20.519 And he actually hadn't. 524 00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:22.980 He hadn't done television since, I think, was it A for Andromeda? 525 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:24.960 He dumps SF back in the 60s. 526 00:24:25.019 --> 00:24:27.480 So yeah, he's a film actor and a stage actor. 527 00:24:27.539 --> 00:24:30.839 So, so he was being sort of polite and also trying to bring 528 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:32.819 himself down to everyone else's level because, you know, it's 529 00:24:32.819 --> 00:24:36.180 Richard Dodd. easing himself out of a spitfire. 530 00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:39.779 So you've then got, you've then got Matthew, right, just as an 531 00:24:39.779 --> 00:24:42.599 eager young puppy wood dashing up and saying, oh, well, you do 532 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:43.559 this and you do this and you do this. 533 00:24:43.619 --> 00:24:45.599 And it was actually that everyone else on the set was being a bit 534 00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:47.579 arsy and enjoying the moment. 535 00:24:47.700 --> 00:24:50.640 Matthew was actually being reasonably polite and Todd took it that 536 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:50.759 way. 537 00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:56.339 I've read the book, and my memory, and I may be misremembering 538 00:24:56.339 --> 00:24:58.920 this, is that Matthew says that it was a joke. 539 00:24:58.980 --> 00:25:00.240 Oh, okay. 540 00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:03.000 You're probably more accurate than I, because I think I'm quoting 541 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.319 a DM interview from 20 years ago. 542 00:25:04.380 --> 00:25:05.700 Well, he might have lost. 543 00:25:05.700 --> 00:25:06.420 Well, he would story. 544 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:07.140 Yeah, he did. 545 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.319 That's not what I was saying, you know, I'm all for gossip, so 546 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.559 let's just... for its own sake. 547 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.839 On the topic of Nerris, though. 548 00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:16.500 Nerris. 549 00:25:16.559 --> 00:25:20.700 You know, you've got, you've got Janet, you've got Matthew. 550 00:25:20.759 --> 00:25:24.779 You've got Nissa in the Tartis on the Delta Wave Augmenta, or have 551 00:25:24.779 --> 00:25:26.940 we noticed from the parting of the waves in the new series? 552 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.819 The Delta Wave is a device you in them when you want to unlock 553 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:31.740 someone you don't like in a room for a whole episode. 554 00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:33.480 It is too, isn't it? 555 00:25:33.480 --> 00:25:39.000 Did you feel as a little boy, both of you, that you were actually 556 00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.940 this is, literally just come back to me now, this memory. 557 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:43.559 So there you go, spooky moment. 558 00:25:43.619 --> 00:25:47.700 I felt a bit gutted that Neris didn't join them. 559 00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.240 Yes. 560 00:25:48.299 --> 00:25:51.359 You know, I wanted her to go on board and they could have just 561 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:52.500 left Tegan where she was. 562 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:53.579 She will come back. 563 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:57.960 She is in an episode of Torchwood called Something Blue, where... 564 00:25:58.019 --> 00:25:58.799 She wears those stockings again. 565 00:25:58.859 --> 00:26:02.519 No, I think she's is she Reese's mother? 566 00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:03.480 Yeah, I think so. 567 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.440 But also there's gonna be gonna be a fair share of characters 568 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:09.960 across the 5th doctor's era where you go, you're far more 569 00:26:09.960 --> 00:26:11.640 interesting than the companions we have. 570 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:12.420 Can we have you? 571 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:13.440 Oh, wait, no, you're staying. 572 00:26:13.500 --> 00:26:15.960 Well, the bar's not very high, is it? 573 00:26:16.019 --> 00:26:17.339 No, no, it isn't. 574 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.680 Just something we won't fight as much. 575 00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:21.539 A grown-up as well. 576 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.440 You know, like a competent grown-up who is, there is an attempt 577 00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:30.240 with Tegan, isn't there, to give the doctor a foil, you know, she's 578 00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.240 sort of strong and stuff, but because the performance at this 579 00:26:33.240 --> 00:26:37.680 point is so weak and because the writing is so poor. you know, it 580 00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.339 doesn't really come off. 581 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:40.319 But Neres and the doctor are wonderful together. 582 00:26:40.380 --> 00:26:41.579 Yeah, just terrific. 583 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:42.900 I'm adult to work with. 584 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.779 Yeah, they have their disagreements and it doesn't descend into a 585 00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:49.259 screaming match, you know, which will be a problem for the rest of 586 00:26:49.259 --> 00:26:50.700 the time Eric Seywood is on the program. 587 00:26:50.759 --> 00:26:53.279 Yeah, we can't actually blame anyone else. 588 00:26:53.339 --> 00:26:54.539 It's certainly not the directors. 589 00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:57.359 But it does feel as if we've got kids doing dress ups, playing 590 00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:58.079 tartars. 591 00:26:58.140 --> 00:27:01.200 It doesn't help, the costume thing doesn't help. 592 00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:03.240 That becomes more relevant. 593 00:27:03.359 --> 00:27:04.859 They are action figures. 594 00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:06.599 That's literally why they're in those costumes. 595 00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:08.940 Except we never bloody mean, never got them. 596 00:27:09.000 --> 00:27:09.839 Not even now. 597 00:27:09.900 --> 00:27:10.680 No? 598 00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.619 Isn't there a Tegan season 19, actually? 599 00:27:13.619 --> 00:27:14.579 There is not. 600 00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:18.119 I think that might be because Janet just looked... 601 00:27:18.180 --> 00:27:20.579 And you want to know something very uncharitable? 602 00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:21.059 Yes. 603 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.960 Are you sure, Richard? 604 00:27:25.019 --> 00:27:29.759 Doctor Who action figure customises find it very easy to make an 605 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:30.480 adric. 606 00:27:30.599 --> 00:27:34.799 Out of the Laszlo from Daleks in Manhattan. 607 00:27:34.859 --> 00:27:35.880 Oh, pig boy. 608 00:27:37.019 --> 00:27:39.660 There's so much we could add on to that. 609 00:27:39.720 --> 00:27:41.220 Do they keep the tail? 610 00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:48.779 Oh, I was about to say, I did try to buy a few Waterhouse a drink 611 00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:49.559 once, but I didn't. 612 00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:50.460 I lost my nerve. 613 00:27:50.519 --> 00:27:52.200 I think I bought Richard Franklin a drink. 614 00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:53.460 Hmm. 615 00:27:53.460 --> 00:27:56.220 Therein lies a fishing tail. 616 00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:00.359 No, you see, I was safe because I was there with my friend Craig 617 00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:03.779 who is quite unreasonably attractive. 618 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:06.299 Just dressed as an extra from the underwater menace. 619 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.099 At times. 620 00:28:08.279 --> 00:28:11.460 I haven't got a Richard Franklin action figure either. 621 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:13.619 What did the kids say about adapting, though? 622 00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:14.819 What can you use for? 623 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.839 You know what? 624 00:28:15.900 --> 00:28:18.539 I think it's very telling that the upcoming It's a sushi? 625 00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:25.799 The upcoming Titan comics, 3rd doctor, photo cover figure features 626 00:28:25.799 --> 00:28:31.380 John Bertwee, Elizabeth Sladen, Katie Manning, Carolyn John 627 00:28:31.380 --> 00:28:38.039 Nicholas Courtney, and John Levine. cruel, isn't it? 628 00:28:38.099 --> 00:28:39.960 Damaris Hyman? 629 00:28:40.380 --> 00:28:42.660 No. 630 00:28:42.660 --> 00:28:47.220 But Olive Hawthorne, White Witch is coming soon from BBV 631 00:28:47.220 --> 00:28:47.700 production. 632 00:28:47.759 --> 00:28:48.839 And an action figure. 633 00:28:49.079 --> 00:28:51.900 I want my Tegan action figure. 634 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.619 I do. 635 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:54.539 So unfair, isn't it? 636 00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.779 Her hair was insured for $10,000. 637 00:28:58.380 --> 00:28:59.339 Did you know that? 638 00:28:59.400 --> 00:28:59.880 Really? 639 00:28:59.940 --> 00:29:01.740 couldn't they have just bought another one? 640 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:05.460 Couldn't they have just stapled another rat to her head in Janet's 641 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:05.759 own words? 642 00:29:05.819 --> 00:29:08.099 Yeah, they're terrible, their extensions. 643 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:11.940 I mean, it was really, it reached its absolute nadir in Fort of 644 00:29:11.940 --> 00:29:15.420 Doomsday, where she's got sort of Catherine Shell style side 645 00:29:15.420 --> 00:29:15.839 there. 646 00:29:16.680 --> 00:29:20.700 It's still pretty terrible. settled down by the end of the 647 00:29:20.700 --> 00:29:20.880 season. 648 00:29:20.940 --> 00:29:24.059 I just love that the mauve just keeps washing up and they just 649 00:29:24.059 --> 00:29:26.640 paint it all under a chin and just started the eyelash and just 650 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.779 paint them all up to the eyebrows. 651 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:29.579 I can just paint a whole freaking head purple. 652 00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:33.900 Boone's bottom, Janet. 653 00:29:33.960 --> 00:29:35.339 I actually love you. 654 00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:36.299 I've still got the bruise. 655 00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:40.859 One thing we haven't discussed is the snake trapped in the 656 00:29:40.859 --> 00:29:41.759 mirrors. 657 00:29:41.819 --> 00:29:42.420 Oh do we have to? 658 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:43.440 Oh, yeah, we do. 659 00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.819 This isn't a good ending because it doesn't really come out of 660 00:29:47.819 --> 00:29:49.619 anywhere no one really learns anything. 661 00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:52.740 It's just a bit of magic about mirrors and some apology and 662 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:52.920 stuff. 663 00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:54.779 So it's Because we need to have a cliffhanger. 664 00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:55.859 It's not a great ending. 665 00:29:56.099 --> 00:30:01.140 And we watched this in Doctor Who Club at school and I was a 666 00:30:01.140 --> 00:30:03.660 little bit apprehensive about the giant plastic snake. 667 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:05.759 You didn't show them the CGI? 668 00:30:05.759 --> 00:30:08.880 I did show them the CGI alternative afterwards, but I did want 669 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.720 them to, because the CGI alternative, which is on the DVD, is an 670 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:13.440 alternative track. 671 00:30:13.500 --> 00:30:14.640 And it's terrible as well. 672 00:30:14.700 --> 00:30:15.660 I think so too. 673 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.279 I actually think it's worse. 674 00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:21.839 It's much less fun than Aras wrestling with a rubber snake and 675 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:23.279 then... 676 00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:25.319 Which is actually very dawn trench. 677 00:30:25.380 --> 00:30:29.400 And Jennifer Saunders having a fight on the set of lucky bitches 678 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:32.039 and Jackie Collins, isn't it? 679 00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:35.039 It's really, I mean, it... 680 00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:40.380 And they surround the snake with mirrors, but the snake is so tall 681 00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:42.180 that it can't actually see the mirror. 682 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:45.720 No. by the end, it's... 683 00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:48.900 But it is, like, who cares? 684 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.200 You know, like that's a sort of dodgy effect. 685 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:56.099 I mean, we haven't mentioned the studio floor kind of listlessly 686 00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:57.480 strewn with leaves. 687 00:30:57.599 --> 00:30:58.980 It's the 80s. 688 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:00.240 I wouldn't even say it's Doctor Who. 689 00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:00.900 Every show did that. 690 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:01.859 It is. 691 00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:03.299 I mean, but it does look terrible. 692 00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:09.119 And if you compare this forest to say Campbell or Zita Minor, or 693 00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.160 even God help us, Khan. 694 00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:13.259 You know, it's less... 695 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:14.759 Kemble is amazing in David. 696 00:31:14.759 --> 00:31:15.299 Oh, my God. 697 00:31:15.359 --> 00:31:16.619 No, that's what I'm saying. those three. 698 00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:18.240 Isn't it extraordinary? 699 00:31:18.299 --> 00:31:21.119 But again, that's pure obscure that's being able to use monochrome 700 00:31:21.119 --> 00:31:22.740 Doctor Who looks so much better. 701 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:23.819 Yeah, well hello. 702 00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:26.579 But this set is not as good as that. 703 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:28.740 The snake looks terrible. 704 00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.299 The tattoo snake that crawls from one arm to another is awful as 705 00:31:33.299 --> 00:31:33.420 well. 706 00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.700 Arris's teeth, Arris's teeth. 707 00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:38.579 Janet Mary Morris's head. 708 00:31:38.700 --> 00:31:43.859 But those are all expensive special effects that don't quite come 709 00:31:43.859 --> 00:31:44.880 off, I think. 710 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:45.839 But who cares? 711 00:31:45.900 --> 00:31:46.559 It's Doctor Who. 712 00:31:46.619 --> 00:31:47.220 It's well written. 713 00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:48.539 It's got some great acting. 714 00:31:48.599 --> 00:31:51.119 Peter gets called an idiot, and that always makes me feel good. 715 00:31:51.180 --> 00:31:54.480 The kids roared with laughter every time Mary Morris called. 716 00:31:54.539 --> 00:31:55.859 Shut up, bitch. 717 00:31:57.420 --> 00:31:59.640 See, we're laughing now. 718 00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:04.200 It is my favourite of this season, but not for the visuals, just 719 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:04.559 for the fake. 720 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:05.339 Look, this is the point. 721 00:32:05.400 --> 00:32:07.440 You can have lots of favourites of this season and lots of 722 00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:07.740 reasons. 723 00:32:07.799 --> 00:32:08.460 Reasons. 724 00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:10.859 This is the most varied season so far. 725 00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:13.740 And we're only 3 stories in, that I've seen in Doctor Who, for 726 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:14.579 golly gosh, how long? 727 00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:17.819 I think they tend to agree with season 18 as well. 728 00:32:17.880 --> 00:32:21.900 But this is very, but I think this is just the strongest because 729 00:32:21.900 --> 00:32:23.339 it's got the best guest cast. 730 00:32:23.400 --> 00:32:24.539 It's well written. 731 00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:27.180 It's a star cast as far as Doctor Who's considered, yeah. 732 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.960 And it is well directed, despite the odd production floor. 733 00:32:31.019 --> 00:32:33.359 Look, I think the script is great. 734 00:32:33.420 --> 00:32:34.799 I think the performances are great. 735 00:32:34.859 --> 00:32:37.859 You know, yeah, production values, but as we've said so many times 736 00:32:37.859 --> 00:32:39.599 before, if you're going to write off Doctor Who with the 737 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:42.660 production values, we wouldn't have made 80 up to episodes of 738 00:32:42.660 --> 00:32:43.680 these podcasts so far. 739 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.259 But I, which we up to now? 740 00:32:46.859 --> 00:32:49.019 Are we bringing out a magazine? 741 00:32:49.859 --> 00:32:52.799 The Tom retrospective was 75. 742 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:58.740 So this must be 78, I would say, or no, 79, including K9 and 743 00:32:58.740 --> 00:32:58.980 Company. 744 00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.619 But I would like to leave this with a quotation from the 745 00:33:01.619 --> 00:33:05.160 discontinuity guide where they talk about goofs in the story and 746 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:08.039 they say, we would mention the snake, but it's the reason why 747 00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:09.660 fanboys rate this story so little. 748 00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:13.920 If the Mara is a creature of false fears, then it's apt that it's 749 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:16.019 real form is a poor origami monster. 750 00:33:31.440 --> 00:33:34.259 I think we should have a mock fight. 751 00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:40.500 Well, dear listeners, as we take off from Diva Loca, we're still 752 00:33:40.500 --> 00:33:43.920 trying to get Tegan back home, and we'll be back next week for the 753 00:33:43.920 --> 00:33:44.460 visitation. 754 00:33:44.519 --> 00:33:47.400 Until then, please find us online at FlightthroughEntirety.com 755 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:50.339 flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on 756 00:33:50.339 --> 00:33:50.640 Twitter. 757 00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:54.660 Over on Bondfinger, James Bond is also wrestling with fake snakes 758 00:33:54.660 --> 00:33:57.660 during the Roger Moore era, so you can find that on Bondfinger 759 00:33:56.759 --> 00:33:57.660 com. 760 00:33:57.720 --> 00:33:59.940 Way to speak of James Sing. 761 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:01.380 Popular in her day. 762 00:34:01.380 --> 00:34:02.460 Poor Catherine Shell. 763 00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:07.259 Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger 764 00:34:07.259 --> 00:34:07.980 cast on Twitter. 765 00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:12.539 I'm probably doing some crazy stuff possibly involving a snake. 766 00:34:12.599 --> 00:34:15.599 Who knows on Doctor Who in 10 seconds on YouTube as well. 767 00:34:15.659 --> 00:34:20.099 Please come back next week and share us with everyone in You Know 768 00:34:20.099 --> 00:34:20.519 and Love. 769 00:34:20.579 --> 00:34:23.280 And until then, may none of your purple snakes enlarge when 770 00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:24.840 presented with a circle of mirrors. 771 00:34:24.900 --> 00:34:26.340 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 772 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:27.179 Good night. 773 00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:28.619 Good everything. 774 00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:29.639 Did you just say that? 775 00:34:35.940 --> 00:34:40.079 That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan 776 00:34:40.079 --> 00:34:43.079 Jones and Richard Stone, theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 777 00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:48.780 This episode, Kinda Lingers, was recorded on the 28th of May, the 778 00:34:48.780 --> 00:34:51.000 next episode will be released on July 3rd. 779 00:34:51.659 --> 00:34:55.199 Doctor Who will return to political commentary in the 1st story of 780 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.480 series 10, the Brexit of Paladon. 781 00:35:04.139 --> 00:35:05.579 Really? 782 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.000 Well done. 783 00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:11.039 Mescently. 784 00:35:11.099 --> 00:35:12.840 Are we still doing phrasing?