WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:18:25

1
00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:35.159
We're back again for part three of our epic four part podcast of

2
00:00:35.159 --> 00:00:36.359
Doctor Who season three.

3
00:00:36.420 --> 00:00:39.420
This is Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast

4
00:00:39.420 --> 00:00:42.299
coming at you live from the Security Kitchen.

5
00:00:42.359 --> 00:00:42.960
Hooray.

6
00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:44.100
I'm Brendan.

7
00:00:44.159 --> 00:00:45.000
I'm Nathan.

8
00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:46.380
And I'm here too.

9
00:00:47.100 --> 00:00:51.420
And we're starting off with a classic of Doctor Who, Nathan, I'm

10
00:00:51.420 --> 00:00:52.140
gagging you for now.

11
00:00:56.939 --> 00:00:58.859
The massacre.

12
00:00:58.920 --> 00:00:59.700
Take it away, Richard.

13
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:02.460
Okay, I begged for this on bent knee.

14
00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.400
And other things that we're not allowed to mention.

15
00:01:05.459 --> 00:01:06.239
So many reasons.

16
00:01:06.299 --> 00:01:08.400
It happens to occur on my birth date.

17
00:01:08.459 --> 00:01:13.680
It's one of, I think, the most interesting points in modern Euro

18
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:18.359
history in that it never has a story had a more apt name than

19
00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:18.719
this.

20
00:01:18.840 --> 00:01:26.400
It's about the conflagration of religion that's been burning away

21
00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:27.540
pretty much for the last 1000 years.

22
00:01:27.659 --> 00:01:32.579
Protestants and Catholics coming together and just the incendiary

23
00:01:32.579 --> 00:01:34.859
results of that in a modern city.

24
00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:36.060
Paris.

25
00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:39.959
Okay, we're talking the TARDIS lands in 1572.

26
00:01:40.140 --> 00:01:44.040
We're at the point of of the Renaissance.

27
00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:48.780
We're at a point now where modern humanity, modern, learned men.

28
00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:56.280
Take note as being educated, civilised, responding to the world

29
00:01:56.280 --> 00:01:58.140
and then all hell breaks loose.

30
00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:00.239
This is something that really talks about.

31
00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:05.579
A whole lot of things that are completely outside the domain of

32
00:02:05.579 --> 00:02:09.060
Doctor Who, and one of the reasons that people, when I, when I'm

33
00:02:09.060 --> 00:02:10.740
asked, why are you a fan of Doctor Who?

34
00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:12.539
I said, because it's everything you want it to be.

35
00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:16.379
You can drop it into anything and it will take it on board and do

36
00:02:16.379 --> 00:02:19.080
something really interesting with it and hopefully, and this

37
00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:22.439
certainly does for me, give you a perspective you might not have

38
00:02:22.439 --> 00:02:23.159
thought of before.

39
00:02:23.819 --> 00:02:27.060
Nathan, you're a fan of the massacre too, aren't you?

40
00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:31.319
Well, listen, I, you know, I watched the Massic for the 1st time

41
00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:35.939
to prepare for the podcast and I had already, even before the idea

42
00:02:35.939 --> 00:02:37.139
of the podcast came up.

43
00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:40.740
I'd already kind of had the idea that I would watch Doctor Who, you

44
00:02:40.740 --> 00:02:42.300
know, all the way through the 60s.

45
00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:44.039
And I've got several friends.

46
00:02:44.099 --> 00:02:47.099
We call it the Great Journey of Life, you know, like Horns of

47
00:02:47.099 --> 00:02:50.639
Nimon style, where they just watch, you know, an episode and

48
00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:52.199
you've been doing it as well with Rod.

49
00:02:52.259 --> 00:02:53.400
Yeah, Brandon.

50
00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:55.800
So we're almost up to the horns of Nimon, actually.

51
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:56.639
Well, lucky you.

52
00:02:56.699 --> 00:02:58.919
And I had long heard that this was terrific.

53
00:02:58.979 --> 00:03:02.759
I think Cornell, Day and Topping, rave about it in the

54
00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:04.379
discontinuity guy.

55
00:03:04.379 --> 00:03:08.580
Sandifer says that it's, you know, extraordinary and...

56
00:03:08.580 --> 00:03:10.199
Yeah, one of the best things that...

57
00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:12.360
And so I was prepared to be impressed.

58
00:03:12.419 --> 00:03:16.680
And it was just so boring.

59
00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:22.139
I really, like, like, I know that I've been flogging to death the

60
00:03:22.139 --> 00:03:27.000
idea that stories are much better when they have, you know, flange

61
00:03:27.000 --> 00:03:28.139
faced villains in this.

62
00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:29.159
That's right.

63
00:03:29.219 --> 00:03:31.500
Are you saying the cliffhagger for episode 2 should have been

64
00:03:31.500 --> 00:03:37.080
Stephen walks into the De Medici throne room and the queen uses

65
00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:39.960
her perception filter and suddenly turns around and says, you dare

66
00:03:39.960 --> 00:03:41.639
disturb me at this time.

67
00:03:41.939 --> 00:03:46.020
That would be great or if she pulled a rubber face off and she was

68
00:03:46.020 --> 00:03:46.919
a Jaguar.

69
00:03:46.979 --> 00:03:50.819
But, like, I just founded the lion heart.

70
00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.879
Sorry, carry on. just found this so incredibly tiresome.

71
00:03:53.939 --> 00:03:55.199
I'll tell you why.

72
00:03:55.740 --> 00:04:02.879
Like every time we go to the past, we spend time in a tavern and

73
00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:07.560
then prison, you know, just have it then prison and we get that

74
00:04:07.560 --> 00:04:08.039
again here.

75
00:04:08.099 --> 00:04:09.659
The doctor's barely in it.

76
00:04:09.719 --> 00:04:12.960
And like, and everyone goes, oh, he does a masterful acting thing

77
00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.259
as the abbot of Amboise, where he doesn't do all of his ticks and

78
00:04:16.259 --> 00:04:19.019
all that, but they have it if Amboise is only in it for like a

79
00:04:19.019 --> 00:04:20.579
couple of minutes and then he's dead.

80
00:04:20.579 --> 00:04:25.019
And like Stephen, who we've already said to someone with no

81
00:04:25.019 --> 00:04:30.420
discernable characteristics, who isn't, you know, like he's a

82
00:04:30.420 --> 00:04:31.199
great actor.

83
00:04:31.259 --> 00:04:35.399
He's quite charismatic to watch, but he's not a character in the

84
00:04:35.399 --> 00:04:37.980
way that Ian and Barbara were characters.

85
00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.100
This is the 1st story where the doctor is absent, as you say

86
00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:43.199
and...

87
00:04:43.259 --> 00:04:45.779
He has to carry the narrative, but there's not enough there to

88
00:04:45.779 --> 00:04:46.560
carry the narrative.

89
00:04:46.620 --> 00:04:48.839
I don't know, but you need a backstory.

90
00:04:48.899 --> 00:04:51.660
I think the casual viewer, not everyone's watching every week

91
00:04:51.779 --> 00:04:53.519
would just take him as being...

92
00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:56.220
But he could have just been some guy who came across from London

93
00:04:56.220 --> 00:04:57.720
you know, and didn't know the local thing.

94
00:04:57.779 --> 00:04:59.100
I mean, does that matter?

95
00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:01.980
I think it matters because why am I watching this?

96
00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:04.379
You know, like, it's not Doctor Who then.

97
00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:05.759
The doctor's not in it.

98
00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:09.600
Stephen has like nothing that happens to Stephen couldn't have

99
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:13.620
happened to some someone who had just come across this week.

100
00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:18.180
This whole scenes where they're explaining the details of this

101
00:05:18.180 --> 00:05:19.620
historical period to each other.

102
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:24.779
That scene with the queen where it's all just just huge, huge

103
00:05:24.779 --> 00:05:27.959
wodges of exposition where they're all explaining to each other.

104
00:05:28.019 --> 00:05:30.660
I don't know what's going on here as well because I actually love

105
00:05:30.660 --> 00:05:31.680
an extent.

106
00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:34.139
I have to say, I love a plot dump.

107
00:05:34.620 --> 00:05:38.879
This story takes place the day after the marriage of Protestant

108
00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:43.500
Henri of Navarre to Charles Neurf's sister, Sir Charles IX.

109
00:05:43.560 --> 00:05:46.560
Navarre was a principality at the south of France.

110
00:05:46.620 --> 00:05:49.920
You should say that at this stage in history, France is all the

111
00:05:49.920 --> 00:05:53.699
reasons that I'm going into now that Nathan loves this story. with

112
00:05:53.699 --> 00:05:55.019
all their background history.

113
00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:59.579
Tell us more about France. when you get real stuff and real

114
00:05:59.579 --> 00:06:02.819
history thrown into Doctor Who because it becomes more dangerous.

115
00:06:02.879 --> 00:06:04.620
The whole stuff if you can't change time.

116
00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:07.379
I just think it's more interesting because it's relevant to real

117
00:06:07.379 --> 00:06:08.939
to real events.

118
00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:11.399
It's not simply Planet Zog with the Zogloids.

119
00:06:11.459 --> 00:06:13.920
It's actually something you can look up and there's a whole lot

120
00:06:13.920 --> 00:06:14.519
more going on.

121
00:06:14.579 --> 00:06:16.800
And I think the narrative takes it more seriously.

122
00:06:16.860 --> 00:06:20.040
The cast does, the writers and directors take it more seriously

123
00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:21.420
because it's based on real events.

124
00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:24.180
It might be a prejudice to science fiction.

125
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.180
Certainly at this time, as we've said before, science fiction, was

126
00:06:27.180 --> 00:06:31.920
predominantly the nature and state of the pulp magazines and the

127
00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:33.360
Saturday matter.

128
00:06:33.420 --> 00:06:35.160
This is what I...

129
00:06:35.220 --> 00:06:36.180
Yeah, it is.

130
00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:41.160
And but it also is able to then plumb greater depths.

131
00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:45.420
And lateralness in characterisation, which for me, Doctor Who is

132
00:06:45.420 --> 00:06:50.100
about how much of a reaction and characterisation you get in the

133
00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:50.459
story.

134
00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.360
It's not for me so much about whether or not they've got a

135
00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:55.139
rubbery.

136
00:06:55.259 --> 00:06:57.480
Oh, no, but there's no characterisation either.

137
00:06:57.540 --> 00:06:59.939
Everyone's... just had a moment.

138
00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:00.720
There is.

139
00:07:00.779 --> 00:07:04.860
The players in this. are absolutely fabulous and you don't need to

140
00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:05.399
see this.

141
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.300
I recommend that if you want to have a look at this.

142
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:12.839
Let's just listen to the audio version of it because it works

143
00:07:12.839 --> 00:07:14.279
beautifully as a radio play.

144
00:07:14.339 --> 00:07:17.279
They aren't actually, it's not helped by the reconstruction.

145
00:07:17.339 --> 00:07:18.839
I wouldn't bother the rest.

146
00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:21.899
There's like one picture of what's the...

147
00:07:22.019 --> 00:07:24.000
Yeah, there's one picture of gas.

148
00:07:24.060 --> 00:07:27.000
And they just Photoshop him over different backgrounds in the

149
00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:27.240
state.

150
00:07:27.300 --> 00:07:29.879
It would be very distracting trying to watch it. recon on this.

151
00:07:29.939 --> 00:07:30.660
Although...

152
00:07:30.660 --> 00:07:33.180
I really enjoyed the recon.

153
00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:34.379
It helped the story come to light for me.

154
00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.300
And when we finished watching the Recorn.

155
00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:41.160
Because after each story, I take down Rod's reaction, anything he

156
00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:41.879
wants to say about it.

157
00:07:41.939 --> 00:07:45.360
And he actually said, um, actually, give me a minute. still

158
00:07:45.360 --> 00:07:45.899
processing this.

159
00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:48.600
And he hates the recons.

160
00:07:48.660 --> 00:07:50.699
He watched them, but, you know, he's like, I want moving images.

161
00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:53.939
He said, I actually didn't miss the moving images this time.

162
00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.699
I know nothing about this period in history.

163
00:07:56.759 --> 00:07:58.500
I did not, I'd heard the name Huguenots.

164
00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:00.420
But I didn't know what happened.

165
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:04.079
This story makes me want to find out more and no other Doctor Who

166
00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.259
story, no other Doctor Who story historical has made me want to

167
00:08:07.259 --> 00:08:10.319
find out more about the period than this story.

168
00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:10.920
I agree.

169
00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:16.319
And I mean, to me, in a way, Rod is my acid test for a lot of

170
00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:17.160
Doctor Who stories.

171
00:08:17.220 --> 00:08:21.480
Because, interestingly, as I just said, we're halfway through

172
00:08:21.480 --> 00:08:23.939
Nightmare of Eden, he gave City of Death and 8.

173
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:26.040
He gave creature from the pit 8.5 .

174
00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:28.740
You know, so it's very...

175
00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:34.980
It's very interesting to see his... to see his reactions.

176
00:08:35.100 --> 00:08:38.220
And the massacre.

177
00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:40.139
I'm sorry, Nathan, but I'm with Richard on this one.

178
00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.000
I think it's a wonderful piece of drama.

179
00:08:42.059 --> 00:08:44.340
I think it's a great vehicle for Peter Purvis.

180
00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:49.259
And I think that Peter Purpose being that Stephen, I should say

181
00:08:49.259 --> 00:08:53.460
rather, being a space pilot is not so important here as the

182
00:08:53.460 --> 00:08:56.820
morality of Stephen's character and as someone who has just been

183
00:08:56.820 --> 00:09:00.840
through a massacre and has just seen his friends die and has seen

184
00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:03.240
people die for specifically for him.

185
00:09:03.899 --> 00:09:08.580
Because Katerina sacrifices herself for him.

186
00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:12.240
Brett Vion is killed because he's trying to help him and the

187
00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:13.019
doctor.

188
00:09:13.080 --> 00:09:15.779
Sarah sacrifices herself for him and the doctor.

189
00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:21.720
He, you know, he is so sick and tired of death, but he can do

190
00:09:21.720 --> 00:09:22.860
nothing to stop it.

191
00:09:22.860 --> 00:09:27.299
And it, it also raises, and Stephen raises the question of, where

192
00:09:27.299 --> 00:09:29.580
was the doctor, you know, he was off trying to meet the

193
00:09:29.580 --> 00:09:30.059
scientist.

194
00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:31.139
If the doctor has been here?

195
00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:32.220
What could he have done?

196
00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.279
And a bit like Dalek's master plan?

197
00:09:35.340 --> 00:09:36.659
It's like the doctor can't do anything.

198
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:41.100
Yeah, and that's, but here, for some reason it feels better.

199
00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:43.440
Not better, but...

200
00:09:43.500 --> 00:09:44.100
It does feel better.

201
00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:45.059
Should we talk a bit about the story?

202
00:09:45.059 --> 00:09:47.879
Because a lot, you know, maybe the person listening hasn't. doesn't

203
00:09:47.879 --> 00:09:49.019
know what this show is.

204
00:09:49.080 --> 00:09:50.159
Yes, sorry, I didn't interrupt you.

205
00:09:50.220 --> 00:09:51.720
He turns up and goes to a pub.

206
00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.500
And people who are not very interesting.

207
00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:59.460
The doctor goes away and talks to bin row the heretic from the

208
00:09:59.460 --> 00:10:00.360
60s.

209
00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:01.740
He's a bit riotless operation.

210
00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.039
It's not been Rober heretic, actually. coordinator Engen...

211
00:10:05.100 --> 00:10:06.419
No, no, I know, but do you know what I mean?

212
00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:07.620
He's Susan to his mates.

213
00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:09.779
Didn't Susan N going to play Vivian Faye?

214
00:10:09.779 --> 00:10:12.960
When I say being with a heretic, I don't mean the actor.

215
00:10:13.019 --> 00:10:14.639
Okay, he's someone...

216
00:10:14.639 --> 00:10:15.000
Yeah, yeah.

217
00:10:15.059 --> 00:10:19.019
Yeah, and like, all of this is going on. making it, you're saying

218
00:10:19.019 --> 00:10:23.519
it's, you know, the when the modern, you know, like this, the

219
00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:26.639
striking thing about this is it happens so close to our own time

220
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:30.960
and it happens, it happens with very much modern politics.

221
00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:36.360
Just as modernity is kind of, and that's what, um, cheaty...

222
00:10:36.419 --> 00:10:37.019
What's he called?

223
00:10:37.019 --> 00:10:37.919
Scientist.

224
00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:39.000
Charles Preslam.

225
00:10:39.059 --> 00:10:44.399
Press Lan is a scientist in Paris when the term itself was almost

226
00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:50.279
a reason for expulsion. under the current Catholic rule.

227
00:10:50.340 --> 00:10:52.440
Really interesting times.

228
00:10:52.500 --> 00:10:56.460
Catherine de Medici was the mother of King Charles, the knight.

229
00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:58.620
See, I'm just falling asleep during that scene.

230
00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:01.860
Well, I'll tell you what, one of the things she's credited for is

231
00:11:01.860 --> 00:11:06.299
introducing Morton French cuisine, the actual, the, the types of

232
00:11:06.299 --> 00:11:08.879
yeah, the tropes of, is what I was looking for.

233
00:11:08.940 --> 00:11:14.879
Oh, the drink. of Italian cooking brought to France and modern

234
00:11:14.879 --> 00:11:15.899
cooking actually started.

235
00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:19.200
This is not me saying this, this is the wonderful.

236
00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:20.159
La Ruth.

237
00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:22.860
The wonderful Laris and his Larisk astronomique.

238
00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:28.440
It's got 3 fantastic performances from 3 major players of the

239
00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:28.679
time.

240
00:11:28.740 --> 00:11:30.299
You just wouldn't expect in these roles.

241
00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:33.960
As you mentioned, it's got Eric Chitty as Preslan, a scientist

242
00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:36.419
who's very, who's when research was something that was very

243
00:11:36.419 --> 00:11:40.080
dangerous to do, who've got Admiral de Colony, and Gas Bar de

244
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.320
Colony, played by Leonard Sucks, who is our very own Barusa in the

245
00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:44.100
Ark of Infinity.

246
00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:44.639
We own him.

247
00:11:44.759 --> 00:11:50.759
And better than that, Eric Thompson, the father of Eriton, Emma

248
00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:54.120
Thompson. their father of Emma Thompson, and the author, and the

249
00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:56.460
complete rewriting of the magic roundabout.

250
00:11:56.759 --> 00:11:59.279
It's amazingly bizarre thing.

251
00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:00.720
As Gaston. notice that.

252
00:12:00.779 --> 00:12:02.460
It's Eric Thompson.

253
00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.039
Now, Eric Thompson was known at the time as pretty much the Peter

254
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:08.639
Purvis of the 60s in that he was the face of children's television

255
00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.080
in England.

256
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:15.600
And the gentle, lovely, make-do and men's guy who was the go-to

257
00:12:15.600 --> 00:12:18.600
whenever you wanted someone charming to talk to the kids.

258
00:12:18.659 --> 00:12:21.779
And he, as Emma Thompson speaks of, because he sadly he died quite

259
00:12:21.779 --> 00:12:22.019
young.

260
00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.080
Emma Toxin herself speaks of her father as being all of these

261
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:25.860
extraordinary things.

262
00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:30.419
Here he plays a volatile, acerbic, pick up a sword and cut his way

263
00:12:30.419 --> 00:12:34.019
through the opposition character, everyone's playing against type

264
00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:35.639
and better than that.

265
00:12:35.700 --> 00:12:39.360
The reason I really love this story is not just the history stuff

266
00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:42.659
although it falls on my birthday, which is in fact the day of the

267
00:12:42.659 --> 00:12:46.500
massacres are kind of resonant for that, is that you really get to

268
00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:50.879
see Billy Shine and stick one in the eye to John Wiles, who was

269
00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:55.259
trying to get rid of him because He plays the dual role, not to

270
00:12:55.259 --> 00:12:56.279
spoil this for you.

271
00:12:56.340 --> 00:13:00.179
Although it's actually intrinsic to the story. you not meant to

272
00:13:00.179 --> 00:13:02.279
know how this is going to end up.

273
00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:03.299
Yeah, whether it's a dream.

274
00:13:03.419 --> 00:13:08.580
Billy, for some reason, Billy plays the abbot of Ambroise, and

275
00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:12.720
hence the confusion and the narrative being able to go the way it

276
00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:12.899
does.

277
00:13:12.960 --> 00:13:18.059
When Stephen sees him in the street and thinks that the abbot is

278
00:13:18.059 --> 00:13:20.399
the doctor, so a whole lot of confusion, terrible things happen

279
00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:21.120
because of this.

280
00:13:21.179 --> 00:13:25.559
Billy plays the abbot, contrary to all expectations, absolutely

281
00:13:25.559 --> 00:13:27.539
note and word perfect.

282
00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:32.820
Not a lot of lines in it, but he is phlegmatic and cold and

283
00:13:32.820 --> 00:13:34.500
measured and controlled.

284
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:38.820
There's no, none of the usual things that we assume is something

285
00:13:38.820 --> 00:13:43.740
of Billy's own name before. person in the pub, absolutely not.

286
00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:47.220
Which makes you think at this point even the fluffs maybe are

287
00:13:47.220 --> 00:13:47.879
deliberate.

288
00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:52.559
Maybe they are because who can say it because he just gets this so

289
00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:53.639
cold and so right.

290
00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:55.980
I mean, he is barely in it.

291
00:13:56.100 --> 00:13:59.159
And and like the Abbott isn't in it all that much.

292
00:13:59.220 --> 00:14:03.659
And and and the other thing is, you know, this is just so worthy

293
00:14:03.659 --> 00:14:07.320
in such an important document of historical blah, blah, blah, blah

294
00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:07.679
blah, blah.

295
00:14:07.679 --> 00:14:10.679
I just think that's all fun. having a stupid science fiction

296
00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:14.100
conceit where it just so happens that the abbot looks exactly like

297
00:14:14.100 --> 00:14:15.899
the doctor for no reason at all.

298
00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:18.840
But that kind of undermines it a little bit.

299
00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:22.259
I like that it's kind of the oddness of it, the fact this isn't, it

300
00:14:22.259 --> 00:14:25.559
plays with history, but then it throws in fantasy.

301
00:14:25.620 --> 00:14:27.000
It doesn't have to be always BSF.

302
00:14:27.059 --> 00:14:28.019
Doctor Who can be anything.

303
00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:29.580
Nathan is exactly what you like.

304
00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:33.840
Well, what I love is that we've also got references, because it's

305
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:34.259
my story.

306
00:14:34.259 --> 00:14:37.200
I can keep going with this, just like Brendan Karl, Nathan, last

307
00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:37.379
time.

308
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:42.000
If you've fed any of Brian Green's stuff, here's the...

309
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:43.679
That's from Beverly Hills known.

310
00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:44.279
He is indeed.

311
00:14:44.340 --> 00:14:49.799
He's the kind of scary smiling scientist, the Canadian scientist

312
00:14:49.799 --> 00:14:53.519
has written some fantastic books and done some great TV shows, even

313
00:14:53.519 --> 00:14:55.679
though it often feels like he's selling Amway when you watch him

314
00:14:55.679 --> 00:14:57.120
on TV, but he writes really well.

315
00:14:57.179 --> 00:15:00.059
And the last chapter in one of his last books, which I have just

316
00:15:00.059 --> 00:15:06.299
here to hand, we'll mention at the end, um, is that he, um, that

317
00:15:06.299 --> 00:15:11.340
modern physics seems to be showing that we are a holographic three

318
00:15:10.500 --> 00:15:15.179
dimensional representation of an alternate universe of a surface

319
00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:19.799
reality and that we are a mere reflection via a black hole of that

320
00:15:19.799 --> 00:15:20.220
reality.

321
00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:24.720
Therefore, the idea of the doctor and other time lords, as we've

322
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:28.440
seen, the 2nd doctor has the face of salamata.

323
00:15:28.440 --> 00:15:29.039
Salamata.

324
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.019
The 12 doctor looks like that.

325
00:15:31.019 --> 00:15:35.940
That, the 12 doctor... old Rome, and the 3rd doctor looks like a

326
00:15:35.940 --> 00:15:40.740
washerwoman from a, from an electronics and mining base in the

327
00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:41.340
middle of Wales.

328
00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:42.120
Yeah.

329
00:15:42.179 --> 00:15:45.539
I just like that there are so many things that doctors can

330
00:15:45.539 --> 00:15:49.740
reference and bring in and that the fantasy side of this, that the

331
00:15:49.740 --> 00:15:52.919
doppelganger of the doctor is just a lovely little conceit in what

332
00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:55.559
is otherwise a really hard story.

333
00:15:55.620 --> 00:15:57.000
Can we get to the girls?

334
00:15:57.059 --> 00:15:59.519
Because this is all about what we can do to the girls.

335
00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:01.980
Could I just say something about the...

336
00:16:01.980 --> 00:16:08.220
Just build on what you were saying about the Abbot having the same

337
00:16:08.220 --> 00:16:09.059
face as the doctor.

338
00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.240
For those of you who don't know, around this time, William

339
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.340
Hartnell was actually pitching story ideas.

340
00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.559
Ah, yes, the production crew.

341
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:21.000
And one of the story ideas he pitched and he sent a letter in

342
00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:24.299
reply to a fan that has been reprinted in a book somewhere.

343
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.559
I'm sorry, I don't know what it is.

344
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.620
Son of Doctor Who, was one of Billy's ideas.

345
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:32.940
And it, Billy, it seems like most of the actors who play the

346
00:16:32.940 --> 00:16:35.220
doctors say they were getting slightly restless playing the one

347
00:16:35.220 --> 00:16:36.299
part all the time.

348
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:41.100
So Billy's idea was that Doctor Who's villainous sum would turn up

349
00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:44.279
with his own TARDIS and be played by Billy in a black wig.

350
00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:46.200
As his younger self?

351
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.159
Because Billy looks 10 years older, as the doctor, then he did in

352
00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:50.519
real life.

353
00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:52.860
So it's feasible that he could look.

354
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:56.879
It's visible that he had had a bit of a hard one.

355
00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:00.840
It's feasible that he could look younger with makeup and whatnot.

356
00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:05.160
And that didn't happen, but there is a theory, which makes a lot

357
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:09.599
of sense, that the Abbot of Amboise, uh, Billy playing the Abbot

358
00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:11.759
of Amboise, was John Wild's way of doing 2 things.

359
00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:16.859
A, it was taking the emphasis away from Billy, because the Abbott

360
00:17:16.859 --> 00:17:18.240
of Amboise is in so little of the story.

361
00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:21.359
Yeah, it's like in 2 scenes and one of them is lying dead in the

362
00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:21.779
gutter.

363
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:23.700
I mean, really, it's not bad.

364
00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:26.220
Also, it was a way to...

365
00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:31.980
Some people think it was way for John Wiles to prove that, look

366
00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:33.839
you can't even play, you can't play another part.

367
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:37.079
You can't even play your own part and much like Tom Baker later in

368
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:39.480
The Deadly Assassin, where Tom turned around and said, I don't

369
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:40.200
need an assistant.

370
00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:42.359
And Philip H Quiff said, we're going to give you a story to show

371
00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:43.079
you it doesn't work.

372
00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:44.819
And it happened to be brilliant.

373
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.980
Just like Billy happens to be brilliant.

374
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:47.880
Nothing comes of it.

375
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:51.839
Billy doesn't play another part again on the show, but as you were

376
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.279
saying, he was bloody good.

377
00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:54.240
Really good.

378
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.519
You were going to say something about the women, I think.

379
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:57.539
Well, it makes me think funny.

380
00:17:57.599 --> 00:17:59.160
Thank you for mentioning that, though, because it makes me think

381
00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:04.200
that maybe Donald Tosh was more on Billy's side than we record.

382
00:18:04.259 --> 00:18:08.099
I still get that impression hearing Donald talk now in that...

383
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:09.119
Damn good writer.

384
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:10.319
He wrote this.

385
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:11.460
Well, yeah, exactly.

386
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:15.000
It's John Lucarati's best script when it's actually so much Donald

387
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.980
Tosh that John Lucarati refused to have his name on it.

388
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.140
Yeah, Lukarotti kind of didn't...

389
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:20.759
So a lot of it was...

390
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:23.099
No one's credited for episodes one to three.

391
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:24.059
Really?

392
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:25.380
Lukarotti entered.

393
00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:26.460
There's no writing.

394
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:29.579
Yeah, because by the time of episode four, the head of serials, I

395
00:18:29.579 --> 00:18:29.880
believe.

396
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.819
You need a writer's credits, so they both...

397
00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.059
Nathan will need someone to blame in 48 years time.

398
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:39.420
What happened with this is that Donald Tosh had to rewrite the

399
00:18:39.420 --> 00:18:42.960
scripts that more interestingly, and this is something that

400
00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.839
Lucarotti was really opposed to and why he took his name off the

401
00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:49.500
rights, he brought about the duality of the doctor and the abbot.

402
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:53.880
In the original scripts, Billy was in the scenes against, not

403
00:18:53.880 --> 00:18:56.880
exactly up against the atmosphere as we know, but it was always

404
00:18:56.880 --> 00:18:58.440
clear that they were separate people.

405
00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:02.940
Why this is so good is that we're seeing it from Steven's place.

406
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.799
We don't know that the abbot is not...

407
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:05.700
Until he's dead in the ditch.

408
00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:07.019
And then we, yes.

409
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:07.440
Oh, really?

410
00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.480
That could be the doctor dead in the ditch.

411
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.440
We've just seen 2 companions killed in the previous series.

412
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.660
I don't think we I don't buy that.

413
00:19:15.779 --> 00:19:17.940
It's certainly one of the best cliffhangers of the whole series

414
00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:18.839
which is what I'm saying.

415
00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:21.539
Yeah, I'm sorry to cut you off, Richard, but Nathan, by that logic

416
00:19:21.539 --> 00:19:24.779
we should never have a cliffhanger with the doctor in danger

417
00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:27.240
because we know it's not effective because we know we get out.

418
00:19:27.299 --> 00:19:28.140
No, that's not at all.

419
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:29.460
How will it get out of it?

420
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.599
will he get out of it?

421
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.480
It's not like next week will I come back and the main character

422
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:36.000
will be dead and then the show will have to go on without him.

423
00:19:36.059 --> 00:19:39.599
The doctor in Peril cliffhanger works because we're going, ooh

424
00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:40.500
how's he going to get out of that?

425
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.079
Yeah, well you don't get much more imperilled than being dead in a

426
00:19:43.079 --> 00:19:43.380
gutter.

427
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:44.579
Yeah, well then we know it's not him.

428
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:45.359
Do you know what I mean?

429
00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:49.259
Like, I just, oh, it just exhausts me this story and it really is

430
00:19:49.259 --> 00:19:55.259
them. experimenting with getting rid of Hartnell and like

431
00:19:55.259 --> 00:19:56.279
flailing.

432
00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:58.140
They don't know what to do.

433
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.220
And so they, let's try with Stephen as the leading man.

434
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.359
Let's marginalise Hartnell, who is barely in it for 4 episodes.

435
00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:10.680
And I just think that the result is just not very interesting.

436
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:13.500
You know, it's not a Doctor Who story.

437
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.660
And the doctor, like the doctor leaves.

438
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:22.140
And all of the, like massacre, is sort of realised, and I, this is

439
00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:24.660
the recon, and I don't know how it was realised in the actual

440
00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:27.420
thing, but it's realised with sort of contemporary engravings

441
00:20:27.420 --> 00:20:29.099
showing pictures of people being.

442
00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:32.519
Yes, that was the case in the original. like there's no even real

443
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:33.119
peril.

444
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.099
It's sort of just a historical thing that happened.

445
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.500
It had happened before the story came.

446
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:39.119
It still happened when the story ended.

447
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.619
We've had no effect on it.

448
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.359
We haven't really learned from it.

449
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:44.640
Like, have we learned something about religious intolerance?

450
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:45.119
Not really.

451
00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:45.900
Do you know what I mean?

452
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:46.920
Like it's all just...

453
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:48.720
Oh, I have to, I have to terribly...

454
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.519
Sorry, David, I only tell you.

455
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:53.099
I adjust my monoid wing.

456
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:54.720
My Margaret role?

457
00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:57.180
No, I think I'm sorry you're wrong, David, you're wrong, you're

458
00:20:57.180 --> 00:20:57.599
wrong, you're wrong.

459
00:20:57.660 --> 00:21:02.279
I think Judith was about to come out again.

460
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.200
This time she did.

461
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:04.799
We miss her.

462
00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:06.839
There's just lovely stuff.

463
00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:13.079
This is some really serious things going on here and there's the

464
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:15.299
friction between Protestant and Catholic.

465
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.500
Look, in Australia, at this time in the early 60s, you still, as a

466
00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:22.980
Catholic person, couldn't be a member of the Australia Club.

467
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.220
There are lots of positions that were not open to you because

468
00:21:26.220 --> 00:21:30.900
Protestants and the Masons, in fact, were still running the jobs

469
00:21:30.900 --> 00:21:31.440
and the business.

470
00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:34.619
You couldn't, you could get, you could rise to a certain high

471
00:21:34.619 --> 00:21:36.779
place in the public service, but that's about it.

472
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:40.079
So this story would have been very relevant for a lot of people

473
00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:41.160
watching it at the time.

474
00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:43.259
It's very much a modern story.

475
00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:44.339
That's evil in it.

476
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:45.059
Do you know what I mean?

477
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.559
It's like the Catholics are bad guys.

478
00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:49.259
We're automatically on the same...

479
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:51.359
They're doing a bit of massacring.

480
00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:52.619
This is what I love about this.

481
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:56.579
Admiral Admiral de Colligny, the, the, um, Hello, it sucks

482
00:21:56.579 --> 00:21:59.279
character is the biggest warmonger of the lot.

483
00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:04.079
He's the one in this story whose advocating war with Spain as an

484
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.359
alliance for to get in with the Dutch.

485
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:08.400
And I'm not going into the background in the history of the story

486
00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:09.839
because you know I'm busting to.

487
00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:13.440
But because it's really complex, and I can talk for 10 minutes

488
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.359
about the history of this, which is why I love it.

489
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:17.339
There's so much complexity in the backstory.

490
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:20.400
Whether or not the casual viewer would have known it then.

491
00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:22.500
Well, you certainly wouldn't have got any of it on the screen

492
00:22:22.500 --> 00:22:26.339
because it's just lots of people in talking to each other in a set

493
00:22:26.339 --> 00:22:27.900
that's kind of...

494
00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:28.619
Yeah, possibly.

495
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:31.680
Yeah, sadly, we don't know what the direction would have been like

496
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:33.480
but the audio performances are certainly fantastic.

497
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:36.660
The final seeings, then Tosh chose these drawings because, you

498
00:22:36.660 --> 00:22:38.099
know, obviously that are budget considerations.

499
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:41.039
So when they actually showed the massacre, what they actually

500
00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:45.000
showed was contemporary engravings, you know, of the time of what

501
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:48.299
was going on, and the BBC was apparently, you know, Inverted Com

502
00:22:48.299 --> 00:22:51.839
was flooded with letters because the engravings themselves were so

503
00:22:51.839 --> 00:22:54.059
violent and expletive.

504
00:22:54.119 --> 00:22:58.680
So this is this would have, I think, had a lot of temerity to it

505
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:00.599
as well for going out there, but a lot of texture.

506
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:03.599
I think that this season is actually pretty fantastic for its

507
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:08.160
experimentalism and I love this one, forgiving me as my kind of

508
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:08.579
viewer.

509
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.480
I can't be the only one out there who really loves. but it's

510
00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:13.500
strength and complexity.

511
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:14.339
Absolutely.

512
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.240
No, no, no, no.

513
00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:16.380
I like complexity.

514
00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:17.279
I like strength.

515
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:19.859
My objection is I don't think this has either of those.

516
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:24.539
I think it's just, it's really talky.

517
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:25.920
It's full of exposition.

518
00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.319
It has none of the characters that I'm interested in watching.

519
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:31.200
No one really seems to learn anything from it.

520
00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:33.359
It's just like life.

521
00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:34.680
Yeah, that's right.

522
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:37.559
Well, that's it, if I, that's the old quote.

523
00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:39.779
If I want a long, boring story with no point to it.

524
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.539
I've got my life, you know, like I don't want to watch the

525
00:23:42.539 --> 00:23:43.079
massacre.

526
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:46.980
Can I just urge everyone, this is one of the reason I love this

527
00:23:46.980 --> 00:23:48.059
and I begged for this story?

528
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:52.500
I wasn't given it is because of the performances and nuances and

529
00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:55.079
the language and also it's beautifully done.

530
00:23:55.140 --> 00:23:59.220
Tosh is a really good writer and he really, really cements that

531
00:23:59.220 --> 00:23:59.759
for me in this.

532
00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:00.960
The man can write.

533
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:05.460
And just the tonalities and textures in the in the performances.

534
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:06.779
It's a lovely radio play.

535
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.059
And it's really worth listening to.

536
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.059
Can I just say, I also miss out on someone I would have loved.

537
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.599
No, it does get a bit Jennifer Saunders with the Mamoset, Mamoset

538
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:20.339
accent, but the character that Anne Robertson plays in this, who

539
00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:21.960
is...

540
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:22.980
Chaplet.

541
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:25.740
Yeah, and Chapelain and Chapelain.

542
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.759
She's really lovely and she has this absolutely demonstrable

543
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:31.259
squeeze on Stephen.

544
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.059
There's a real crush happening here.

545
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.980
And it's a lovely a lovely moment.

546
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.160
And it's handled maturely.

547
00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:39.359
Very maturely.

548
00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:39.660
Thank you.

549
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:41.940
She's and she is a strong female character.

550
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.660
She's the 1st strong female character we've had since, um, well

551
00:24:45.660 --> 00:24:49.980
not including... um, recurring or regular characters.

552
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:52.920
However, a lot of sort of wine and panicky stuff in the thing.

553
00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:56.220
No, she's strong and she's the 1st underclass, not just working

554
00:24:56.220 --> 00:24:56.579
class.

555
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.240
She's the 1st modern slave class that actually gets a voice.

556
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:01.740
And they kill her.

557
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:02.759
Spoiler alert.

558
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.319
Well, they do.

559
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:04.859
Yeah.

560
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:06.960
Oh, God, do they?

561
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:08.819
Are we up to the point where we get to the last five?

562
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.259
Yes, can we just get rid of this story?

563
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:15.240
before we go. on to the bad thing that happens in the last 5

564
00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:18.539
minutes, let's go on to the good thing, which is Steven's tirade

565
00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:19.680
at the doctor.

566
00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:21.000
Oh, it's so nice.

567
00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:22.799
He's going to storm.

568
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:23.700
Oh, yeah, that would be great.

569
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.019
Okay, okay.

570
00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:27.660
Okay, let's what, someone's lost their beagle or their tennis

571
00:25:27.660 --> 00:25:28.079
ball.

572
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:29.640
Okay, Wimbledon Comic.

573
00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:31.440
Sorry, sorry.

574
00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:33.539
Let's put a cork on that.

575
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:40.140
Nathan, cork on that and just talk about Stevens just utter fed

576
00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:41.519
up.

577
00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:44.880
Stephen has had a year of seeing everyone bogged off.

578
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:49.500
Everyone dead and the doctor has a chance to rescue a girl who has

579
00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:53.579
actively assisted them in this story and actually in a way allowed

580
00:25:53.579 --> 00:25:56.039
this, allowed them both to be saved and come through this.

581
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.859
And the doctor just leaves her in Paris.

582
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:03.480
And the only advice he says is stay the shut up for 4 days inside

583
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:06.779
because everyone else is going to get horribly murdered.

584
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.660
And when you consider...

585
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:12.720
Where Stephen's character has come from, you know, he's been

586
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:15.299
imprisoned by the... by the McAnoys.

587
00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:19.019
Very painful. for 2 or 3 years, you know, and so, you know, he

588
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:20.099
desperately wants his freedom.

589
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:22.140
But as soon as he gets out, like he has a couple of nice

590
00:26:22.140 --> 00:26:24.480
adventures with the doctor and Vicky, and then he just travels

591
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.660
around seeing people horribly...

592
00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:33.000
People, you know, people, people helping him and, you know, each

593
00:26:33.000 --> 00:26:35.460
of the leading up situations, he's like, yeah, the doctor can't do

594
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:36.240
anything about that.

595
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.759
Like, Catarina, the doctor can't do anything about that.

596
00:26:38.819 --> 00:26:41.339
Sarah, the doctor was in danger as well.

597
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.480
No, I'm agreeing with that.

598
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:45.779
But yeah, as you say, this the doctor has a chance to do

599
00:26:45.779 --> 00:26:46.019
something.

600
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:50.579
This is the 1st time the doctor can actually exactly enter into

601
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:53.880
the narrative and save a girl and he doesn't do it.

602
00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.339
Is it because she doesn't remind him of his granddaughter?

603
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.440
Well, I think it's...

604
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.539
Because that might be a reason why the next one's allowed to

605
00:27:00.539 --> 00:27:00.720
stay.

606
00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:04.740
I think it might actually more be a reason, more be an indication

607
00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:07.079
of what he said way back in the Aztecs if you can't change

608
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:07.559
history.

609
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.700
And unlike a lot of other doctors, he actually stands by that.

610
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:13.619
But that's for major characters.

611
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:16.740
He's always allowed himself to assist minor characters and you

612
00:27:16.740 --> 00:27:17.400
can't...

613
00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:18.420
He didn't assist Richard.

614
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:20.279
He didn't assist King Richard.

615
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:22.680
King is not a major character.

616
00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:26.880
No, no, but as you said, no, no, but that's my point. is not

617
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.339
important in world in world narrative.

618
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:30.960
So, yeah, we get there.

619
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.059
Yeah, he leaves it pretty much leaves it to our own devices and

620
00:27:33.059 --> 00:27:35.579
Stephen wants to storm off because and it's a really nicely

621
00:27:35.579 --> 00:27:37.740
written scene. if you're only going to listen to a bit of it

622
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:38.519
listen to the last part.

623
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:40.859
See, Stephen just for the last part is good advice.

624
00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:45.839
Yes, because then you get that speech and it's the speech in, in

625
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:50.160
adventuring space and time as well, where the doctor, has this

626
00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:52.559
speech where he says everyone leaves him in the end and none of

627
00:27:52.559 --> 00:27:55.319
them understood him, not even Susan and things. and he talks about

628
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:59.579
Eden and Barbara and Vicky and mentions everyone who's been a

629
00:27:59.579 --> 00:28:00.240
companion before.

630
00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:05.460
Stephen has stormed off because The doctor hasn't saved everyone.

631
00:28:05.700 --> 00:28:09.720
Which I would nearly do as well because I'm just sick to death of

632
00:28:09.720 --> 00:28:11.940
this. you know, like everyone gets killed.

633
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.359
And here, you know, there's no even sort of redeeming spectacle or

634
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.559
anything for 4 previous episodes and then we get a giant, you know

635
00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:20.339
massacre at the end.

636
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:24.480
So he storms off and the doctor gives a spectacular speech and he

637
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:25.680
really does a great job of it.

638
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:30.240
And in adventures in an adventure in space and time, that's the

639
00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.140
scene where he kind of fluffs it, you know, and it loses it and

640
00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:37.980
that's the scene that Gates uses to illustrate that Hartnell's

641
00:28:37.980 --> 00:28:40.980
suffering from arteriosclerosis.

642
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:42.660
And it's good that it happens.

643
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.000
Thematically it happens in a scene where he's reflecting on all of

644
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:48.059
the people who he loved, who have left the program.

645
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:53.579
So in an adventure in space and time, Billy ruins that speech.

646
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.519
But in the actual show. spectacular.

647
00:28:56.579 --> 00:28:57.359
He does a great job.

648
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:02.819
But then after all of that, Stephen comes back because, like, a

649
00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:06.180
policeman's coming because, you know, and that's awful.

650
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.700
And then so it all just goes nowhere.

651
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.279
We don't learn anything, nowhere.

652
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:12.599
We have drum roll.

653
00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:14.339
We have the introduction of the very...

654
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:16.380
We've just lost a mirror ball off the Chumley cake.

655
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:19.740
How prescient is that, just as we're about to announce the

656
00:29:19.740 --> 00:29:21.599
introduction of the new companion?

657
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:23.279
All together now.

658
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:25.859
Dodo Chaplet.

659
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.400
Now, the giveaway is that she has a name that means stupid

660
00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:29.759
person.

661
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:33.359
Like a name that means extinction.

662
00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:36.720
Yeah, yeah, but like dodoes are not just dead as a dodo, but

663
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:40.740
they're kind of stupid, you know, like and so like instantly she's

664
00:29:40.740 --> 00:29:41.460
on the back.

665
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.940
The 1st thing she says, walking into a time and space machine

666
00:29:44.940 --> 00:29:47.220
that's dimensionally transient.

667
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:48.180
Where's the phone?

668
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.740
And that's it.

669
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:54.420
And she has a terrible northern accent, like a terrible fake...

670
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.779
Not long.

671
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:55.980
She was meant to be cockney.

672
00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.059
And until about the 3rd scene of the...

673
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:11.940
That's what we were thrust out of that.

674
00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:13.259
We were doing the army already.

675
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:14.220
We're in the ark.

676
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:16.019
Oh, sorry, I thought we were.

677
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:18.480
Thank you all for listening to the massacre, as I'm sure you've

678
00:30:18.480 --> 00:30:20.519
all just gone and done because it really is the best one ever

679
00:30:20.579 --> 00:30:21.359
moving on.

680
00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:25.559
Yeah, so by the 3rd scene of the art, Dodo is no longer cockney

681
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:28.200
because the big bods at the BBC said, you can't.

682
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:30.779
I know, because Jared Savoury said, I don't want her accent

683
00:30:30.779 --> 00:30:33.359
ricocheting up and down the airport, which didn't actually exist

684
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:33.839
at the time.

685
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.180
But it really doesn't.

686
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.240
No, they said we still want to import it.

687
00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:41.339
Yeah, she starts off northern, then goes Colkney, then goes

688
00:30:41.339 --> 00:30:42.240
terribly RP.

689
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah, and then on, like by the time of the celestial toy maker.

690
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:50.279
She's like a play school presenter with the RP accent.

691
00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:54.059
There is an instroid explanation for because she says something

692
00:30:54.059 --> 00:30:55.740
and she says something cool or modern.

693
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.839
She says something that Christopher Eccleston might say.

694
00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:03.119
She says something's dead, dead, cool, or dead, something.

695
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:04.799
Like she uses a modern language.

696
00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:06.180
She does say it's fab.

697
00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:09.420
Of the kind that Vicky used sort of as well.

698
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:13.559
And Hartnell says, oh, you know, we have to teach you to speak

699
00:31:13.559 --> 00:31:16.500
proper English, you know, don't use that appalling mongrel

700
00:31:16.500 --> 00:31:17.039
dialect.

701
00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:17.880
That's not him.

702
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:19.019
But do you know what I mean?

703
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:21.660
He critiques her speech.

704
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:25.799
And it is that thing too, where that's the 1st hint that the

705
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:27.059
doctor's turning conservative.

706
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:29.339
So the doctor liked Vicky.

707
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:30.779
The doctor burns down Rome.

708
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:32.099
The doctor has a happy time.

709
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:32.880
Do you know what I mean?

710
00:31:32.940 --> 00:31:35.759
The doctor can't tolerate you cutting your G's.

711
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:36.480
Yeah, that's right.

712
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:39.900
But now he's now he's suddenly your primary school teacher, you

713
00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:42.420
know, he'll tell you off for having a working class accent.

714
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:46.680
But he also adopts this girl and he does adopt it because not only

715
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:51.240
was, we mentioned Jackie Lane, not only was she, he says that she

716
00:31:51.240 --> 00:31:55.680
reminds him of her granddaughter, that he's lost in extraordinary

717
00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:58.619
circumstances, because he locked the bloody door and didn't let

718
00:31:58.619 --> 00:31:59.220
her back in.

719
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:01.920
I think there's a whole lot of Mia Cooper in this.

720
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:04.920
I think that you can actually see this as the doctor having, ever

721
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:08.700
since that moment, just being trying to make it up to whoever his

722
00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:12.240
whomever is with and to whoever blunders into the Tartars who had

723
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:13.980
auditioned to play, Susan.

724
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:17.400
Well, this is the thing, you'd audition to play, McLane did

725
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:17.940
audition.

726
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:21.000
John Wiles had worked with her previously and she was apparently

727
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:23.400
really good and quite respected as a young actor.

728
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:24.720
I don't think it's her fault.

729
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:25.799
I'm going to jump on this.

730
00:32:25.859 --> 00:32:28.079
Yeah, that she said so.

731
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.059
The accent is not good.

732
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.160
Like, the accent is not good right now.

733
00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:33.299
Do you know who cuts that?

734
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:35.160
Do you know who actually ordered that?

735
00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:36.000
Jared Savoury?

736
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:40.019
Jared Savoury, who recently appointed head of series and serials

737
00:32:40.019 --> 00:32:44.099
who was getting letters each week from Billy going over John

738
00:32:44.099 --> 00:32:47.640
Well's head saying, this is happening and it's atrocious and

739
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:48.180
appalling.

740
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.299
Savoury started taking an interest in the program because he was

741
00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:54.240
responding to it, and here's the reason that, as we're going to

742
00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:57.480
see later on the season, that Bill is still in the show.

743
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:02.700
Yeah, it's actually pretty much Bill won that round, but not for

744
00:33:02.700 --> 00:33:03.299
long, sadly.

745
00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:05.640
Yeah, it's a bit of a pyrhic victory, isn't it?

746
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.839
And whiles it really does deal, like the fatal blow, I think.

747
00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:15.900
He's, I mean, he's completely sidelined Billy in in the massacre.

748
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.240
The Arc is his last one, isn't it?

749
00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:18.779
John?

750
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:19.920
No, no, it's not his last one.

751
00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:23.160
He sticks around for a bit longer and Billy gets Billy gets a lot

752
00:33:23.160 --> 00:33:25.859
more of a role in the art, but it is up to Stephen to make the

753
00:33:25.859 --> 00:33:26.279
speeches.

754
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:27.660
Yeah, true.

755
00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:31.140
And also, you know, it was around the time of the myth makers that

756
00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:33.720
Billy was actually diagnosed with arteriosclerosis.

757
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:37.319
So by this time, it was known in the production office that this

758
00:33:37.319 --> 00:33:38.759
is why his memory was so bad.

759
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:43.019
But he still gives great performances later on and we're going to

760
00:33:43.019 --> 00:33:45.180
talk next episode about gunfighters.

761
00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:48.240
And he's good enough. savages.

762
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.579
Oh, savages, isn't that?

763
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:51.839
Yeah, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

764
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:52.559
Sideline.

765
00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:54.539
And so the arc.

766
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:55.559
Are we talking about the...

767
00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:56.519
We're talking about the ark.

768
00:33:57.059 --> 00:34:00.059
They arrive, I think this is yours, isn't it?

769
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:01.440
It's a big spaceshippy thing.

770
00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:02.460
It is.

771
00:34:02.460 --> 00:34:03.420
It is.

772
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.240
I've just been riveted by the 2 of you.

773
00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:08.639
I still want to spend Daddy and Daddy are fighting.

774
00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:11.760
Can I spend another 15 minutes talking about how much I hate the

775
00:34:11.760 --> 00:34:12.360
massacre?

776
00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:12.659
No.

777
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:13.199
Okay.

778
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:18.659
So, yeah, we have we have the arc, which, again, going back to

779
00:34:18.659 --> 00:34:20.760
something I was saying about earlier stories, it's a story about

780
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:24.420
one central concept, and it's a story around this concept, which

781
00:34:24.420 --> 00:34:26.219
would have been revolutionary at the time.

782
00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:29.400
Richard, you alluded earlier in Dalek's master plan to the fact

783
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:33.659
that viewers would have no idea when the story would end.

784
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:36.599
So, you know, you get to the end of part 2 of the arc and you're

785
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.639
like, oh, that was a quick one, but they sorted that out quick.

786
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.039
And, oh my god, they've gone 700 years in the future and the

787
00:34:41.039 --> 00:34:41.820
statue is finished.

788
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:45.179
It is, it is a powerful cliffhanger and that's sort of the central

789
00:34:45.179 --> 00:34:49.559
the central idea is, you know, seeing the death of the earth and

790
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:51.059
then seeing what happens to humanity.

791
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.559
But it's, it is very, very problematically done.

792
00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:59.760
On one level, it's a very, it's a very interesting science fiction

793
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:00.599
idea.

794
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:04.980
It, um...

795
00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:06.059
Richard Challenge.

796
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:07.559
Well, it's not a new idea.

797
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:11.219
It's not a new idea to call us things to come and it's, you know

798
00:35:11.219 --> 00:35:12.539
it's HG Wells, obviously.

799
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:14.699
It's all Stapleton, actually.

800
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:16.800
Did you ever read him when you were a kid?

801
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:19.800
No, but I've heard C.S. Lewis, my immortal enemy.

802
00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:21.360
I was a big fan of all I was saying.

803
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:23.760
Honest Stapleton wrote the things about the end of the end of the

804
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:27.599
end of time, books are serious, and I think the last and 1st men.

805
00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:31.739
Um, it's, they're kind of like um, Doc Smith.

806
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.920
They were, you know, like teenage fiction stuff.

807
00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:35.940
Oh, gosh, they were terrible.

808
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.679
Well, same sort of thing they're worth looking at.

809
00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:39.539
But it's pretty much this story.

810
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.579
Far, far, far future.

811
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:45.119
Because it is super far future. well outside where we've been

812
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:49.019
segmented. of time. and all of Nero and all of them. that we've

813
00:35:49.019 --> 00:35:49.320
just seen.

814
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:50.519
Everything.

815
00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:53.460
In fact, everything in Doctor Who so far has been the 1st segment

816
00:35:53.460 --> 00:35:53.880
of time.

817
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:57.960
Yeah, so this is except for the Daleks, which happens a 1000000

818
00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:58.619
years in the future.

819
00:35:58.679 --> 00:35:59.940
Oh, yeah, apparently.

820
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.980
That's one. segment of time.

821
00:36:02.099 --> 00:36:06.119
This is, can we say, this is beautifully directed by the one off

822
00:36:06.119 --> 00:36:06.960
Michael Imerson.

823
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:09.239
That 1st episode is cinematic.

824
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:12.659
See, I would love to talk about parts one and 2 and say lovely

825
00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:15.119
things and then parts 3 and 4 and just...

826
00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:16.800
Okay, let's start with parts one and two.

827
00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:17.460
Absolutely.

828
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:18.840
It's things to come on.

829
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:22.980
And it's possibly that the 1st time that in a science fiction

830
00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:27.960
story, Doctor Who is directly copying something else, because it

831
00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:30.719
was all the other time.

832
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.860
In terms of design, certainly earlier on, it's taken ideas.

833
00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:38.460
But yeah, as you were saying, Richard, it's the 1st time it's kind

834
00:36:38.460 --> 00:36:41.880
of taking the plot from other things and doing it in a Doctor Who

835
00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:42.480
kind of way.

836
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:46.679
And what I find very interesting about it is Stephen's big speech

837
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:52.380
um, when he's on trial for, you know, because they brought Dodo's

838
00:36:52.380 --> 00:36:53.099
cold on board.

839
00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:55.980
And, uh, yeah, I don't think that's a great idea to introduce a

840
00:36:55.980 --> 00:36:58.619
character, her 1st full story, and she almost commits into that

841
00:36:58.619 --> 00:36:59.099
genocide.

842
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:03.300
Can we just say, the doctor then suggests, oh, maybe we've just

843
00:37:03.300 --> 00:37:05.579
spread diseases all through space and time.

844
00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:09.420
In every place we visited, ever since the show began.

845
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.000
And so not everything, not save everyone.

846
00:37:12.059 --> 00:37:15.000
It's too terrible to think about. been infecting people.

847
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:17.400
Let's not worry about it.

848
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:20.579
Yeah, and he has that beautiful speech where, you know, the humans

849
00:37:20.579 --> 00:37:23.519
are saying, oh, so advanced, so marvellous, so there's always so

850
00:37:23.519 --> 00:37:25.139
that and Steven turns around and says, yeah, but you're still

851
00:37:25.139 --> 00:37:27.360
bigoted, terrible people.

852
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:30.719
You know, you are still afraid of anything unlike you, which

853
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.119
starts to introduce the tone that's really problematic.

854
00:37:33.179 --> 00:37:34.679
Everyone in the ship is white.

855
00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:38.099
Yeah, they are. except the monoids.

856
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:39.000
So the monoids.

857
00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:42.480
Can we just say for those of you at home who have, you know

858
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:45.780
hobbies and full, rich and satisfying lives and haven't seen the

859
00:37:45.780 --> 00:37:46.500
ark as a result?

860
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:47.460
there's no one, is there?

861
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:52.320
And so they're sort of people and they have sort of waddly legs

862
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:53.880
and dark skin and the people.

863
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.019
They have web legs in their mouths.

864
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:56.460
And I don't mean web toes.

865
00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:58.380
No web legs. webbing between their legs.

866
00:37:58.500 --> 00:37:59.579
Yeah, they are.

867
00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:04.199
John Mandeville's travels, which are 18th century, or Baron

868
00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:08.760
Mulkausen's stories, which you'd know from the Terry Gilliam

869
00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:09.059
film.

870
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:12.900
They're actually, then, yeah, they're drawn straight from, actually

871
00:38:12.900 --> 00:38:15.900
going to hold them up these up for the listener at home because

872
00:38:15.900 --> 00:38:17.460
it's the joy of audio.

873
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:18.900
But here we go.

874
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:20.880
I'm just going to show the boys here and we'll put this up on

875
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:21.239
site.

876
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:23.340
But these are the kind of drawings that are around in the OT

877
00:38:23.340 --> 00:38:27.420
century of creatures with, you know, a ping-pong ball in their

878
00:38:27.420 --> 00:38:28.320
mouth and a beetle.

879
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:28.800
Yeah, yeah.

880
00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:30.659
And you get that, like, you do get that stuff.

881
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:32.340
Like even there's a...

882
00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:36.239
Where is it in Shakespeare?

883
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:39.420
In Shakespeare, you know, the anthropophagan man whose heads do

884
00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:41.280
grow beneath their shoulders or between their shoulders?

885
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:42.420
Which is from the same thing.

886
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:46.739
That idea, you know, that idea that when you when you travel

887
00:38:46.739 --> 00:38:48.239
Caliban's a bit like that.

888
00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:49.320
Yeah, yeah, all that sort of stuff.

889
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:53.639
But, I mean, basically the idea is they're dark skinned servants.

890
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.920
And they come...

891
00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:57.300
They're all yak skin.

892
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:58.139
They're all yak here.

893
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.699
Some of them are blocked.

894
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.019
They're in beta wigs.

895
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:06.599
And so they do like hilariously bad sign language. and they

896
00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:10.260
communicate with sign language and we are very kind to them and

897
00:39:10.260 --> 00:39:13.679
you know, they're allowed to kind of, you know, carry our books

898
00:39:13.679 --> 00:39:16.320
when we put people on trial and all of that sort of thing.

899
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:21.179
And, and, you know, they start to die of dodo's cold and they're a

900
00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:23.699
bit upset by that, but no one else is particularly phased.

901
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:26.579
Yeah, they don't do anything until the humans are dying.

902
00:39:26.699 --> 00:39:28.860
Humans are dying that it's like a giant thing and we'll put

903
00:39:28.860 --> 00:39:29.579
everyone on trial.

904
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.320
And so it's already a little bit problematic.

905
00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:38.880
Well, no, look, vastly hugely hideously problematic and racist.

906
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:43.619
But I kind of wanted to at least say that there are things about

907
00:39:43.619 --> 00:39:46.920
the design and the production in those 1st 2 episodes, which are

908
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:47.460
stunning.

909
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:51.239
I mean, the thing looks vastly better than it had before.

910
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.599
I mean, even the costumes, which were a bit silly.

911
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.300
Yeah, well, it's the Fenian League.

912
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.639
You've got to look again at...

913
00:39:59.699 --> 00:40:00.719
Yeah, you know, the undersea.

914
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:04.199
They're going back in history with the costumes and forward in

915
00:40:04.199 --> 00:40:04.559
history.

916
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:08.400
It is an interesting sort of melding to imply that it's this

917
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:11.880
perfect society, except that they look like, you know, like a milk

918
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:16.559
bar, like the, the, uh, the strips that hang down on the door.

919
00:40:16.619 --> 00:40:17.940
Yeah.

920
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:21.000
And they're all kind of wearing them no matter how old they are.

921
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:27.420
But, you know, the sets are big.

922
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:28.619
They have an elephant.

923
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:31.440
They have an elephant and like real animals.

924
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.139
You know, really nicely, it's on as a cutaway.

925
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:35.760
So you assume it's just another...

926
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:37.860
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and that's around the crew, the cast

927
00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:38.820
actually reached out.

928
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.739
Jo actually goes...

929
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.539
So that thing's probably died of the fluid as well.

930
00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:45.599
Monarchy, yeah.

931
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.619
But then and that cliffhanger, I agree with you.

932
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:50.579
That cliffhanger.

933
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:54.420
The great thing about it is we even get the sort of, like we get

934
00:40:54.420 --> 00:40:55.800
quite a way into the credits.

935
00:40:55.860 --> 00:40:59.460
We may even get the sort of next week, you know, whatever it is

936
00:40:59.460 --> 00:41:00.000
the return.

937
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:03.539
Like, we get quite a way into it before we see that the head of

938
00:41:03.539 --> 00:41:04.980
the statue is a more...

939
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:05.880
Yeah, yeah.

940
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:09.179
So it is, and we linger on that and all of that.

941
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:12.179
And that is really remarkable and really fantastic and something

942
00:41:12.179 --> 00:41:13.320
that they've never done before.

943
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:15.599
Like we've never landed in the same place twice.

944
00:41:16.019 --> 00:41:18.360
Except for, except for Campbell.

945
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:22.019
Yeah, but certainly not in a different time period, yeah.

946
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:26.159
This is one of those stories from our friends who were there for

947
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:29.760
the 1st time round, along with Web Planet. seems to be, that are

948
00:41:29.760 --> 00:41:31.860
most remembered from the Hartmorp era.

949
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:35.760
So, again, because this is a story that's supposed to be propelled

950
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:40.980
by its visual qualities and content rather than its players

951
00:41:40.980 --> 00:41:44.699
because honestly, that security kitchen really gets a workout

952
00:41:44.699 --> 00:41:45.300
doesn't it?

953
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:46.559
Love the security kitchen.

954
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:47.699
We love the security kitchen.

955
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:48.659
And it's a good idea.

956
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:50.639
So, you know, the mono's obviously thinking, well, at least you

957
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:51.840
can bake while you're prisoners.

958
00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:53.820
It's actually very modern getting prisoners too.

959
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:56.880
No, but like the mono, it's and they don't have mouths, right?

960
00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.260
No, they have...

961
00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:00.239
Sunny bono amulets.

962
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:02.400
They get served with food.

963
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.139
They just kind of look at it.

964
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.119
You do actually see them like put it behind their neck.

965
00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:11.519
Oh, so they've got like a neck.

966
00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:13.500
I thought their mouths were in their chest, which is where their

967
00:42:13.500 --> 00:42:14.940
voice box things are.

968
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.199
Maybe it's also their chest.

969
00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:17.039
I thought it was their neck.

970
00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:20.579
I just sort of think they sort of waving around and add attention

971
00:42:20.579 --> 00:42:21.059
to this story.

972
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.119
But where it all goes to hell, right?

973
00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:24.539
Yeah.

974
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:27.059
Where it all goes to hell is episode three.

975
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:32.159
And so what's happened is we, we humans, we, lovely white people

976
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:36.420
have been so kind to the monoids, you know, by patronising them

977
00:42:36.420 --> 00:42:37.619
and allowing them to speak.

978
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:40.139
In fact we've allowed them, we've taught them to speak. loudest.

979
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:43.860
Yeah, you know, we've let them carry our books and drive our

980
00:42:43.860 --> 00:42:45.599
things around and all that sort of thing.

981
00:42:45.659 --> 00:42:51.719
And then a flu dodo's flu has infected the humans and caused them

982
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:52.980
to lose the will to live.

983
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:56.400
Much like the massacre, actually, has...

984
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.000
Moving on.

985
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:02.039
And, um, build a cross channel total.

986
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.139
I'll be back.

987
00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:09.780
And suddenly the monoids are in charge and they're not the

988
00:43:09.780 --> 00:43:13.500
benevolent overlords that the white people were.

989
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:17.639
They're in fact cruel and mean and they have numbers instead of

990
00:43:17.639 --> 00:43:22.800
names and they explain their plans to each other in loud voices

991
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:24.840
and all of that sort of thing.

992
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:27.000
And the whole thing just sort of goes to hell.

993
00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:29.760
It's really just terribly, terribly awful.

994
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:34.559
And at a time, are you going to mention Rhodesia?

995
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:36.599
I was going to mention, well, I wasn't even going to go to that

996
00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:38.639
because we've covered it before, but I was going to mention, you

997
00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:40.320
know, John Welles is an Afrikana.

998
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:41.519
Yeah, yeah.

999
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:44.340
I mean, I know. a white South African of that time.

1000
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.960
I don't know what his own political views.

1001
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.239
Look, I'm prepared to... really racist.

1002
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:51.059
I prepared to give the gentleman the benefit of the doubt simply

1003
00:43:51.059 --> 00:43:54.539
because he's a man in theatre and a lot of people in theatre had

1004
00:43:54.539 --> 00:43:59.039
more of a lateral kind of thinking, even in these unprocessed

1005
00:43:59.039 --> 00:43:59.760
times.

1006
00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:05.159
But, you know, that people make political thoughts and positions

1007
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:07.320
were much more black and white, I guess, in those days, as far as

1008
00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:07.920
we can see from that.

1009
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:08.820
I saw what you did there.

1010
00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:10.860
Yeah, but boomtish.

1011
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:16.079
But the, um, but whiles, look, I, okay, my personal take on this

1012
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:17.519
this is the one that Wiles wanted to make.

1013
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:18.900
This is the one that he came in.

1014
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.059
Yeah, this is his vision of Doctor Who.

1015
00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:23.820
It was the very story he wanted to do, which is super duper.

1016
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:27.360
It's a lovely idea because again, it's classic trope, I believe, is

1017
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.340
the word, of science fiction.

1018
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.920
It's the super duper art that's bigger than anything you can

1019
00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:35.219
possibly film and given it to someone a one off.

1020
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.440
I think this is an interesting story in a lot of times.

1021
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:38.699
A lot of reasons.

1022
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:41.280
The director of this story, Michael Emerson, was giving his

1023
00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:42.300
marching orders.

1024
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:43.860
You're not just going off this story.

1025
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:46.320
You'll never be hired again by the BBC.

1026
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:49.920
And then I think the end of one of episode one or 2 while he was

1027
00:44:49.920 --> 00:44:50.340
shooting it.

1028
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:54.059
So the fact that he carried on might well indicate why episodes 2

1029
00:44:54.059 --> 00:44:57.000
and 3 and 4 is a pretty dull because the man...

1030
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.139
I think they're badly directed.

1031
00:44:58.199 --> 00:44:59.880
I think it's all down the script.

1032
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:01.320
I think it's all down to the...

1033
00:45:01.380 --> 00:45:06.239
So what happens is that the moment that these black people are in

1034
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:11.400
control and we're talking at a time where, as you said before, you

1035
00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:14.940
know, England's former colonies in Africa, being given kind of

1036
00:45:14.940 --> 00:45:15.599
self-rule.

1037
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:19.380
And so what happens here, the black people are stupid.

1038
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:22.980
They explain their plans loudly to each other and tip off the

1039
00:45:22.980 --> 00:45:25.139
white people and they fight one another.

1040
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:26.099
Do you know what I mean?

1041
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.619
They can't be trusted not to fight among themselves.

1042
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:32.099
And, you know, they're just sort of stupid and primitive and the

1043
00:45:32.099 --> 00:45:35.400
whole thing is just absolutely, absolutely monstrous and

1044
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:35.760
terrible.

1045
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:40.079
The only redeeming feature of episodes 3 and 4 is the fact that

1046
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:42.840
there are a few sins have lost their physical shape in a galaxy

1047
00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:43.260
accident.

1048
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:46.619
Fantastic, isn't it?

1049
00:45:46.619 --> 00:45:51.360
The thing is, even the refusian element is incredibly problematic

1050
00:45:51.360 --> 00:45:55.019
because, um, Mentos, that's the leader.

1051
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:56.460
Mentos.

1052
00:45:56.460 --> 00:45:58.980
He's the fresh AK.

1053
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.900
People, he all day sucker.

1054
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:05.340
Well, he says we're going to this planet called Refuses 2.

1055
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:08.460
It has similar earthlike properties, and the idea that it will

1056
00:46:08.460 --> 00:46:12.239
take 700 years to get there, unlike later Doctor Who, this is an

1057
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:14.639
era of Doctor Who saying that earthlike planets are few and far

1058
00:46:14.639 --> 00:46:17.760
between, which is what we're seeing now when we're looking out

1059
00:46:17.760 --> 00:46:18.360
into the universe.

1060
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:23.699
But he, um, but not fully plays of the, of the, in either the, the

1061
00:46:23.699 --> 00:46:25.739
the, the, the, No, none of them are particularly interesting.

1062
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.019
Yeah, but they're not poorly played.

1063
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:29.940
No, no, and there are some interesting moments.

1064
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.440
And they're final shared.

1065
00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:34.199
Again, Michael Sheard makes his 1st of six, something

1066
00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:35.340
appearances.

1067
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:37.260
God, I'm such a nerd.

1068
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.699
It's true.

1069
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:41.760
But no, I really think that there are things about this.

1070
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:44.579
The fact that it was visually astounding at the time.

1071
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:46.079
It got huge coverage here.

1072
00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:49.679
I've actually got newspapers from the time I found secondhand and

1073
00:46:49.679 --> 00:46:51.719
saved giving this huge coverage.

1074
00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:55.320
It got a big promotion by the ABC and Australian when it was shown

1075
00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:57.719
big promotion, promotion by the BBC.

1076
00:46:57.780 --> 00:46:59.940
Visually, it was the show.

1077
00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:04.199
And the audience figures reflected that. appreciation figures

1078
00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:04.920
reflected that.

1079
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:08.820
And as I say, from fans like my friend Robert living in WA now, he

1080
00:47:08.820 --> 00:47:11.579
says, this is this and the web of fear and the web plan are the

1081
00:47:11.579 --> 00:47:14.519
only ones he remembers as a seven-year-old child watching.

1082
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:19.860
So when Mentos says that, you know, we're going to this planet

1083
00:47:19.860 --> 00:47:24.480
refuses to, Stephen says, well, it's either Stephen or Dodo, who

1084
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:26.280
says, oh, well, aren't there people living there?

1085
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:28.619
And it's just pretty much, oh, we'll deal with that when we get

1086
00:47:28.619 --> 00:47:28.860
there.

1087
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:34.500
Which in a colonial sense is. shoot them with our guns until they

1088
00:47:34.500 --> 00:47:35.340
give us their land.

1089
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:39.840
And, you know, we're from Australia, we'd see how that turns out.

1090
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:41.219
Yeah, yeah.

1091
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:41.699
You know?

1092
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:43.860
But it's all okay.

1093
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:46.619
And that whole problem is voted because the refusians are

1094
00:47:46.619 --> 00:47:47.699
invisible, you know?

1095
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:49.920
In fact, we're quite happy for you to come in.

1096
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:54.179
It's the colonial dream of a native that says, oh, you're so

1097
00:47:54.179 --> 00:47:54.659
wonderful.

1098
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:57.539
Why don't you come live in these houses we've already built for?

1099
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:00.659
They did. actually did my car. castle for them.

1100
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:02.400
The refusions as well.

1101
00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:05.820
Because they're sort of invisible, godlike entities and stuff.

1102
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:07.139
They certainly speak in a god way.

1103
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.440
Yeah, yeah. the ones who kind of end up as the moral centre of the

1104
00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:10.980
story.

1105
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.380
Who tells them that they have to live together?

1106
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.000
It's the refusing...

1107
00:48:15.059 --> 00:48:16.619
Yeah, you see, they're the ones who enforce.

1108
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:18.719
And so...

1109
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:19.860
Billy during all of this?

1110
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:20.280
Yeah.

1111
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:21.960
Oh, you know, facting about.

1112
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:26.639
He doesn't, I think he is involved in the negotiations.

1113
00:48:26.699 --> 00:48:27.659
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1114
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:31.019
But it is the refusians who kind of deliver the moral.

1115
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:33.840
And so they say you have to learn to live together and all of that

1116
00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:34.440
sort of thing.

1117
00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:37.800
And you sort of think, oh, maybe this is kind of an attempt to

1118
00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:39.840
make it into a non-racist thing.

1119
00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:43.139
But it just doesn't really ring true.

1120
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:47.460
And it's come after such horrendous nonsense for the last couple

1121
00:48:47.460 --> 00:48:50.159
of episodes that you just can't buy it.

1122
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:51.000
Do you know what I mean?

1123
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:54.360
Maybe, maybe the monoid should just learn their place.

1124
00:48:54.420 --> 00:48:55.679
Yeah, I mean...

1125
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:56.940
It's a while before we get to it.

1126
00:48:57.000 --> 00:48:59.400
But it's a bit like the end of the 2 doctors where the doctor says

1127
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:01.679
I think we're going to be vegetarians from now on.

1128
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:06.239
Like, that does not make up for the past 135 minutes of horrible

1129
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.280
Texas chainsaw massacre kind of stuff.

1130
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:10.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1131
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:11.099
No, that's it.

1132
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:12.719
And that's precisely.

1133
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:16.019
They fig leaf, the kind of racism, but essentially this is a

1134
00:49:16.019 --> 00:49:18.179
pretty horrendous racist parable.

1135
00:49:18.300 --> 00:49:21.420
It's a shame because the plot on paper is quite interesting.

1136
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:23.340
Yeah, the high concept is great.

1137
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:24.539
The design is great.

1138
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:25.619
I think it's really well directed.

1139
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:28.500
The whole thing looks spectacular, but it's just horrendous.

1140
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.739
I think it could have been saved if when the Monoids take over.

1141
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:34.320
They are actually very good leaders.

1142
00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:36.900
Like if they were very good leaders and they were very intelligent

1143
00:49:36.900 --> 00:49:41.880
that would have been turning the whole colonialism, nation seeking

1144
00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:43.980
independence thing on its head because when the nations were

1145
00:49:43.980 --> 00:49:46.800
seeking independence, lots of people were saying, oh, well, they

1146
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:48.960
won't be able, you know, they won't be able to run their own

1147
00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:49.320
country.

1148
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:50.039
They need us.

1149
00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:53.280
If we had have seen the monoids actually being fairer than the

1150
00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:56.460
humans, rather than being out and out villains, and it had been a

1151
00:49:56.460 --> 00:50:00.059
thing of, you know, okay, you're being very fair to them, but they

1152
00:50:00.059 --> 00:50:03.179
are still your subjects and your prisoners, you must learn to be

1153
00:50:03.179 --> 00:50:03.480
equal.

1154
00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:04.440
Yeah.

1155
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:05.880
That would have said that.

1156
00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:09.059
No, I don't think that is...

1157
00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:12.659
Milly is not angered by the monoid's oppression in episodes one

1158
00:50:12.659 --> 00:50:13.079
and two.

1159
00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:16.019
But he's very, yeah, very...

1160
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:19.980
We take it as red that they're not of a sophisticated human level

1161
00:50:19.980 --> 00:50:23.820
of intelligence, but they don't speak that they're very robotic in

1162
00:50:23.820 --> 00:50:24.300
their movement.

1163
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:26.519
We take it that they're only semi-centuent.

1164
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:29.219
This is why I actually got to argue, since you've had you go on

1165
00:50:29.219 --> 00:50:33.239
the massacre, but it's not really a, it's a later reading that

1166
00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:35.159
this is racist, because these are lizards.

1167
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:35.880
They're not people.

1168
00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:40.079
So you can actually talk about a special form of racism, but I

1169
00:50:40.079 --> 00:50:41.940
don't think it's a stand in for humanity.

1170
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.739
It certainly wasn't seen that way at the time.

1171
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:46.440
Okay, yes, you're saying that they were far more unenlightened

1172
00:50:46.440 --> 00:50:46.739
times.

1173
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:47.699
Well, maybe they weren't.

1174
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:49.139
Maybe they weren't.

1175
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:51.480
Maybe people were actually a lot more aware of this because the

1176
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:52.679
Commonwealth was splitting up.

1177
00:50:52.739 --> 00:50:55.679
I think people were very aware at the time of race.

1178
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:57.900
That's why I think it's a consciously racist hero.

1179
00:50:57.900 --> 00:50:58.860
I don't think it is.

1180
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:02.280
I think this is lizard guys from the 18th century in Beatle wigs.

1181
00:51:02.340 --> 00:51:04.500
Stop around being me.

1182
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:08.280
Well, then servants, black, dark skinned servants. black and white

1183
00:51:08.280 --> 00:51:08.699
television.

1184
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:09.179
They're black.

1185
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:11.280
That's not enough to make it.

1186
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:13.199
It really is.

1187
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:15.539
I don't I think it is racist.

1188
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.280
I do not think it is actively racist.

1189
00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:20.159
I think it's racist in the same way as early Warner Brothers and

1190
00:51:20.159 --> 00:51:20.820
Disney cartoons.

1191
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:22.980
They're really racist.

1192
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:23.400
Yes.

1193
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:24.840
That's a bad thing.

1194
00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:26.280
Listen, listen, listen.

1195
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:30.960
At the time, they were not setting out to be to be racial

1196
00:51:30.960 --> 00:51:31.679
vilification.

1197
00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:35.159
They were setting out to be amusing and missing and not getting it

1198
00:51:35.159 --> 00:51:35.340
right.

1199
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:39.239
But as Whoopi Goldberg says, because the Looney Tunes DVDs come

1200
00:51:39.239 --> 00:51:42.239
with an intro, come with an intro by Whoopi Goldberg saying, you

1201
00:51:42.239 --> 00:51:46.139
know, I loved Looney Tunes as a kid, and what you're about to see

1202
00:51:46.139 --> 00:51:48.239
some of these things, they're racist.

1203
00:51:48.300 --> 00:51:50.519
They were wrong then, they are wrong now.

1204
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:52.079
But if we deny it happened.

1205
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:55.920
If we deny that this was a form of entertainment, that's as bad as

1206
00:51:55.920 --> 00:51:57.000
saying it never happened.

1207
00:51:57.059 --> 00:52:00.420
And that's why, in a way, this is an important Doctor Who story

1208
00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:04.679
because no Doctor Who story after this is as problematic in terms

1209
00:52:04.679 --> 00:52:05.219
of race.

1210
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.840
Except for the next one, obviously.

1211
00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:10.440
Well.

1212
00:52:10.860 --> 00:52:11.280
Yeah, okay.

1213
00:52:11.340 --> 00:52:12.480
It's not quite as problematic.

1214
00:52:12.539 --> 00:52:15.719
It's one scene in that that's problematic.

1215
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:18.480
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1216
00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:19.619
The whole we'll get there.

1217
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:21.780
We'll get there. more than that.

1218
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:25.079
The key word is celestial.

1219
00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:30.420
Yeah, I actually genuinely think that this is a story that the

1220
00:52:30.420 --> 00:52:33.360
writer is in control of, and that the writer is deliberately

1221
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:39.900
choosing to say that, um, that the people to whom we are giving

1222
00:52:39.900 --> 00:52:43.380
independence in Africa are unable to govern themselves, and that

1223
00:52:43.380 --> 00:52:47.400
it's very...

1224
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:49.019
But that's what the story seems to be.

1225
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:50.880
But we don't necessarily take the lyrics to this point.

1226
00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:55.139
I'm of the perspective that, yeah, we, somewhere along the line, I

1227
00:52:55.139 --> 00:52:57.119
think it becomes that, whether it starts out...

1228
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:59.099
Yeah, maybe it doesn't come from the weather or whether it is

1229
00:52:59.099 --> 00:52:59.880
designed like that.

1230
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:00.300
Who knows?

1231
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:01.980
The designer is Barry Newbury.

1232
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:04.559
I don't mean the designer.

1233
00:53:04.619 --> 00:53:05.880
I mean the writer.

1234
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:07.199
Ericsson.

1235
00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:10.860
Like, I'm not saying that Ericsson, I don't know who's responsible

1236
00:53:10.860 --> 00:53:15.480
for it, but the story that we have essentially has that as a

1237
00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:15.719
message.

1238
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:17.940
Right.

1239
00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:21.000
Well, but otherwise it was terrific.

1240
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:22.199
That's great.

1241
00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:22.860
Yep.

1242
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.539
So I think I think we can boil that down too.

1243
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:25.679
It's a great concept.

1244
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:29.519
I'd like to know what other people, if any, if anyone is listening

1245
00:53:29.519 --> 00:53:30.000
to this.

1246
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:31.619
What you think yourself.

1247
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:36.360
If you could just leave a comment on the Facebook page. or on the

1248
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:37.320
website. on the website.

1249
00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:39.960
Yeah, or the website even better because, you know, some of our

1250
00:53:39.960 --> 00:53:41.760
people have already been leaving.

1251
00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:43.679
Greg's left great comments just on what they think.

1252
00:53:43.739 --> 00:53:44.639
Do you think it's racist?

1253
00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:48.719
I, I, sort of, I sent my piece and you certainly hope from the

1254
00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:49.260
rest of us.

1255
00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:53.940
Yeah, we seem to be sort of coming from 3 different perspectives

1256
00:53:53.940 --> 00:53:57.360
of not racist, entirely racist. a little bit racist.

1257
00:53:57.420 --> 00:53:58.920
I don't believe it's intentionally signite.

1258
00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:01.199
Yeah, so I think we can sort of boil that down too.

1259
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:05.579
It's a great concept, but with very, very questionable execution.

1260
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:10.800
And speaking of questionable execution, we're off into a land of

1261
00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:12.059
dreams and fantasy.

1262
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:15.300
Is this the one where I get to talk for 15 minutes about how much

1263
00:54:15.300 --> 00:54:16.619
I hate the massacre again?

1264
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:17.880
No.

1265
00:54:17.940 --> 00:54:18.659
Oh, okay.

1266
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:20.280
That is my fantasy though.

1267
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:22.380
It's the celestial toy maker.

1268
00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:31.500
No, those chimes in the willow trees started to go off now.

1269
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:33.480
This one's been given to me because I'm a lucky one.

1270
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:37.800
This is another one of those things that on paper should have been

1271
00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:38.760
extraordinary.

1272
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:42.960
It does and says things about, you know, the doctor facing a

1273
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:48.059
godlike villain, the ultimate power, um, gods and monsters thing

1274
00:54:48.059 --> 00:54:52.380
of, you know, being taken out into a form of reality that's beyond

1275
00:54:52.380 --> 00:54:55.679
the reality of the universe that we know, we're going through

1276
00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:56.940
Brian Green's black hole.

1277
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:59.940
He wasn't even around in those days, but black holes had actually

1278
00:54:59.940 --> 00:55:02.519
only, hang on, they hadn't even been promulgated yet.

1279
00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:05.880
Black holes were only a year old when they made the 3 doctors.

1280
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.619
That's how early we are.

1281
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:09.239
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

1282
00:55:09.300 --> 00:55:10.619
It was a very new idea.

1283
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:11.699
7172.

1284
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:14.039
And it turns out, doctor who got it totally right.

1285
00:55:14.099 --> 00:55:15.360
Spoiler alert for...

1286
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:15.539
Really?

1287
00:55:15.539 --> 00:55:16.679
There's like...

1288
00:55:16.739 --> 00:55:19.199
An ancient time lord with a sort of magical realm.

1289
00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:20.219
Stop it.

1290
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:22.440
Do you know Do you know that there isn't?

1291
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:23.280
You weren't there.

1292
00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:24.300
You don't know.

1293
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:25.559
It's right.

1294
00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:28.500
Sorry, tuna. in the room with us.

1295
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:32.039
Ah, this should have been amazing.

1296
00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:36.059
And you can see why fans like Gary Russell and the other guys were

1297
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:39.840
saying that, you know, in Germany, in the memory of, oh, Nathan, do

1298
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:42.840
you actually have a copy of Peter Haning's celebration?

1299
00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:46.019
It just so happens I do. with you at this very moment and we're

1300
00:55:46.019 --> 00:55:48.900
going to, we're going to relate this to the gentle listener

1301
00:55:48.900 --> 00:55:51.480
because I think you've got to be reminded of just what the

1302
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.519
received idea of this was.

1303
00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:59.460
It's the doctor meeting, finally, his equal in a univer- in a part

1304
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:03.059
of the world that doesn't belong in space and time, as we know it

1305
00:56:03.059 --> 00:56:09.780
that there are archetypes of, of, um, not just villains, but of, of

1306
00:56:09.780 --> 00:56:12.659
characters, that we only realise halfway through the narration

1307
00:56:12.659 --> 00:56:16.619
were once people, but have been denuded to be mere automatons and

1308
00:56:16.619 --> 00:56:17.460
mere dolls.

1309
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:19.260
There's some really dark ideas in this.

1310
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.980
And yet, it's really terrible.

1311
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:25.260
It never quite pulls them off.

1312
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:26.519
You're so sweet, Brendan.

1313
00:56:26.579 --> 00:56:28.260
It's awful from beginning to end.

1314
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:29.940
Like we were discussing earlier.

1315
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.699
My function of this podcast is to go, but everything's wonderful.

1316
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:33.900
You think something.

1317
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:35.340
So I'm not going to read...

1318
00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:37.980
I threw my hands above my head there, dear listener, like Nadia

1319
00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:38.699
comedy.

1320
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:41.880
So I have Doctor Who Celebration by Peter Haning.

1321
00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:45.719
And this is a hugely important document because it's the 20th

1322
00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:46.500
anniversary thing.

1323
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:47.699
So it's 1983.

1324
00:56:47.820 --> 00:56:50.639
It's before very much a very good year, listener.

1325
00:56:50.699 --> 00:56:52.199
Brendan's 1st viewing.

1326
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:52.800
Really?

1327
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:54.480
That was our 1st view on your friend.

1328
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:56.699
Well, it was his, no, it was his moment, if you remember when we

1329
00:56:56.699 --> 00:56:58.199
were born, yeah.

1330
00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:00.119
So 1983.

1331
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:06.000
And had any had there been any DVD releases?

1332
00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:07.800
Have there been any VHS?

1333
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:11.340
And then came out that time on VHS and it cost the equivalent of

1334
00:57:11.340 --> 00:57:11.940
80.

1335
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.719
Yeah, so you just couldn't watch old...

1336
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:17.880
No, if you lived in Australia, you were very lucky because they

1337
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:21.780
were stripping it on the ABC and we got to see things over and

1338
00:57:21.780 --> 00:57:22.199
over again.

1339
00:57:22.260 --> 00:57:22.860
Yes.

1340
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:26.460
But essentially, you could never watch old Doctor Who.

1341
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:30.900
And so this was most people's only source for, you know, what the

1342
00:57:30.900 --> 00:57:31.980
old stories had been like.

1343
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:35.099
And this one raves about celestial toymaker.

1344
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:37.320
I'm going to read one sentence because reading things out on the

1345
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:39.960
podcast that are killing momentum stone dead.

1346
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:41.699
Maybe I can add an echo to you.

1347
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:42.900
I wouldn't do that.

1348
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:47.760
Few drama productions on television have ever achieved the unique

1349
00:57:47.760 --> 00:57:52.440
atmosphere present in the 4 episodes of the celestial toy.

1350
00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:55.739
What does this say about the character of the Toymaker himself

1351
00:57:55.739 --> 00:57:58.739
though, because he's seen as being extraordinary.

1352
00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:00.119
I've got a bit to say about him.

1353
00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:03.599
He's really sax Romas, again, Fu Manchu, he's being the merciless

1354
00:58:03.659 --> 00:58:05.280
racist and celestial.

1355
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:07.619
Oh, Celestial was a pass.

1356
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:08.880
Thank you to Sandafar.

1357
00:58:08.940 --> 00:58:13.139
Well, it's actually a 19th century thing for Chinese and... drug

1358
00:58:13.139 --> 00:58:14.699
addled Chinese person.

1359
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:15.599
Yeah, it does.

1360
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.659
He, Chang in...

1361
00:58:18.659 --> 00:58:20.820
When Chang calls himself the Celestial Chang.

1362
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:24.900
And apparently in Deadwood, Celestial gets used as a term of abuse

1363
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:28.739
but I've never seen Deadwood, so God knows.

1364
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:30.780
Is Inis Lloyd involved in this one?

1365
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:34.739
Inis Lloyd and Jerry Davis are starting to come around.

1366
00:58:34.860 --> 00:58:36.960
This is during the handover.

1367
00:58:37.019 --> 00:58:41.820
So this is at the point where we're at a weird transition because

1368
00:58:41.820 --> 00:58:45.599
of course the doctor disappears for half of this story. more than

1369
00:58:45.599 --> 00:58:46.199
half of this story.

1370
00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:50.820
And that was as a result of John Welles still trying to get rid of

1371
00:58:50.820 --> 00:58:51.539
Hartnell.

1372
00:58:51.539 --> 00:58:55.079
And the original idea for changing the actor, which was vetoed by

1373
00:58:55.079 --> 00:58:57.059
Gerald Savoy.

1374
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:57.719
Savoury.

1375
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:58.199
Savoury.

1376
00:58:58.260 --> 00:58:58.920
I do beg your pardon.

1377
00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:04.559
Vetoed by Gerald Sabre, it was that the toy maker would make the

1378
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:07.440
doctor disappear and then when he came back, he would be a new

1379
00:59:07.440 --> 00:59:09.539
actor. together, but the same persona.

1380
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:13.260
So he would have the same look. but be a different actor.

1381
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:15.539
And that was that was vetoed.

1382
00:59:15.539 --> 00:59:18.840
And I think that was actually the straw that broke the camel back

1383
00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:22.079
for whiles, who just kind of turned around and said, look, you

1384
00:59:22.079 --> 00:59:24.420
want me to make this show, but I cannot make this show because the

1385
00:59:24.420 --> 00:59:27.420
lead actor is impossible for me to work with.

1386
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:28.800
Therefore, I will not make the show.

1387
00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:29.280
I will quit.

1388
00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:30.659
Yeah, Billy won that round.

1389
00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:34.079
And of course, Billy was, but it's also because in this story

1390
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:38.940
Gerald Savoury himself had immediate involvement in it.

1391
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:39.840
Where this comes from.

1392
00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:43.260
Can we just briefly say the TARDIS appears in something that is

1393
00:59:43.260 --> 00:59:44.280
like the land of fiction.

1394
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:46.619
Only crummy.

1395
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:51.300
The doctor, the doctor, suddenly turns somewhat invisible. and and

1396
00:59:51.300 --> 00:59:53.760
all the rest returns some way.

1397
00:59:53.820 --> 00:59:57.300
So the doctor has to play Towers of Hanoi with Michael Goff and

1398
00:59:57.300 --> 01:00:01.260
he's invisible and then inaudible and it's like some guy's hand

1399
01:00:01.260 --> 01:00:02.579
moving the things.

1400
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:06.599
So the companions have to step out of the TARDIS and they find

1401
01:00:06.599 --> 01:00:10.920
themselves in the land in a land of one-to-one scale toys, a nice

1402
01:00:10.920 --> 01:00:12.300
little thing of planet of giants.

1403
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:15.360
Again, you think that the TARDIS can take on the scale of whatever

1404
01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:16.380
universe is.

1405
01:00:16.500 --> 01:00:19.980
There's visually, there's kind of really exciting things that are

1406
01:00:19.980 --> 01:00:20.460
happening here.

1407
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:23.639
The idea of these, and the design is actually gorgeous for a show

1408
01:00:23.639 --> 01:00:24.300
with no budget.

1409
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:26.460
The tin robots are massive.

1410
01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:30.179
The TV sets in the chest, especially in the colour photos that you

1411
01:00:30.179 --> 01:00:30.900
can see of this.

1412
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:32.699
They're really gorgeous looking.

1413
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:36.719
And Michael Goff, of course, has come straight from the Avengers

1414
01:00:36.719 --> 01:00:39.179
where he was the inventor of the cybernauts.

1415
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:44.760
Absolutely, the precursors to Doctor Who's cybermen a year later.

1416
01:00:44.820 --> 01:00:46.139
Really nicely done.

1417
01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:50.159
Now, This is actually the story that on paper was supposed to

1418
01:00:50.159 --> 01:00:55.199
propel the idea of Doctor Who as an international saleable

1419
01:00:55.199 --> 01:01:00.059
commodity online with the Avengers, and this story itself is the

1420
01:01:00.059 --> 01:01:03.599
story that is supposed to mime or mimic what the Avengers is

1421
01:01:03.599 --> 01:01:03.840
doing.

1422
01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:07.980
They did it beautifully with the kind of the fantasy in reality

1423
01:01:07.980 --> 01:01:09.239
the house that Jack built.

1424
01:01:09.300 --> 01:01:12.000
Thank you, which in itself actually kind of references the

1425
01:01:12.000 --> 01:01:12.539
TARDIS.

1426
01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:16.500
It's an M appeal story where a house is actually built just to

1427
01:01:16.500 --> 01:01:19.380
menace the chief protagonist in this case, Mrs. Peel.

1428
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:24.719
So the idea of this one was that it would be, um, that it would

1429
01:01:24.719 --> 01:01:26.820
actually be something that would be, everyone would love and the

1430
01:01:26.820 --> 01:01:28.440
Americans would want to watch and buy.

1431
01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:32.579
Whereas it's really just 2 people running around playing really

1432
01:01:32.579 --> 01:01:36.480
rubbish children's games with no narrative connection at all.

1433
01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:40.679
It's extraordinary to watch it just how dull it is to actually

1434
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:41.579
have to sit through.

1435
01:01:41.699 --> 01:01:43.440
And it is, there's no real peril.

1436
01:01:43.500 --> 01:01:46.619
Like, or there's no sort of properly to, you know, will be burned

1437
01:01:46.619 --> 01:01:47.039
or whatever.

1438
01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:49.800
And, you know, it's got lines like, what have you done now, you

1439
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:50.400
clown you?

1440
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:52.619
Well, clowns aren't even scary clowns.

1441
01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:55.260
As Rod said at the time, because I've got my notebook here.

1442
01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:58.679
I wish they would stop talking about the solutions and actually do

1443
01:01:58.679 --> 01:01:59.159
them.

1444
01:01:59.219 --> 01:02:01.860
And when they, when it occurs to them in the 1st 10 minutes of

1445
01:02:01.860 --> 01:02:03.599
each episode, it's such a waste.

1446
01:02:03.659 --> 01:02:04.679
You're so right.

1447
01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:09.000
You know, this comes from absurdist theatre, which is very...

1448
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:11.639
Eugenie and Eska, the rhinoceros. good.

1449
01:02:11.699 --> 01:02:13.199
You know, this is really nice.

1450
01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:14.519
But on paper this was the same thing.

1451
01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:18.659
This is also absurdist theatre, um, if you don't know, it is that

1452
01:02:18.659 --> 01:02:22.679
is about the futility of the mundane and the everyday of life and

1453
01:02:22.679 --> 01:02:28.260
juxtaposed with um, with fantasy with very dark notions of where

1454
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:28.619
we are.

1455
01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:32.400
It also presages Joe Orton's work, because it's very much like

1456
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:33.480
this later.

1457
01:02:33.539 --> 01:02:37.199
And in fact, you've got dodo dressed as Joe Orton in the train

1458
01:02:37.199 --> 01:02:38.159
driver's cap.

1459
01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:42.239
Um, and, you know, Harold Pinter, of course, and people are

1460
01:02:42.239 --> 01:02:42.659
watching.

1461
01:02:42.659 --> 01:02:43.619
But those are good.

1462
01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:45.960
Do you know what this is?

1463
01:02:46.019 --> 01:02:48.480
You can actually say existentialism without blanching.

1464
01:02:49.260 --> 01:02:51.960
This idea is existentialist theatre.

1465
01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:55.559
But as you say, there's none of the production or the writing that

1466
01:02:55.559 --> 01:02:56.460
holds that together.

1467
01:02:56.579 --> 01:02:58.079
There's no threat.

1468
01:02:58.139 --> 01:03:00.719
There's no, like, all we have to do is get the TARDIS.

1469
01:03:00.780 --> 01:03:02.039
Everything's completely arbitrary.

1470
01:03:02.099 --> 01:03:05.400
The threat is only explained to us in dialogue and we never see

1471
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:05.639
it.

1472
01:03:05.699 --> 01:03:08.340
There are no actual characters anywhere.

1473
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.699
The games are deadly boring and protracted.

1474
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:12.719
It really is.

1475
01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:16.679
I mean, it may be my least favourite Doctor Who story. terrible.

1476
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:20.099
The reason that exists is because it was all taken out, and that

1477
01:03:20.099 --> 01:03:21.960
was by the head of series and serials.

1478
01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:25.980
Gerald Savoury had written a play in the 30s called George and

1479
01:03:25.980 --> 01:03:26.519
Margaret.

1480
01:03:26.579 --> 01:03:29.159
The characters George and Mildred from that about the house and

1481
01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:29.940
later their own show.

1482
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:31.019
Well, based on that.

1483
01:03:31.079 --> 01:03:33.300
Shades of Samuel Beckett, maybe.

1484
01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:36.659
The characters of George and Margaret never actually show up in

1485
01:03:36.659 --> 01:03:37.260
this play.

1486
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:40.260
The other characters sitting around waiting for them and there's

1487
01:03:40.260 --> 01:03:43.079
the drama of, you know, it's the existential loss of living in an

1488
01:03:43.079 --> 01:03:46.019
urban environment, blah, blah. in Britain in the 1930s.

1489
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:49.679
It was still considered quite a literary piece and was very well

1490
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:52.500
known enough for the casual viewer to have actually known who

1491
01:03:52.500 --> 01:03:53.280
these people were.

1492
01:03:53.340 --> 01:03:57.420
The idea of this one was that George and Margaret are played by

1493
01:03:57.420 --> 01:04:00.599
Carmen Silvera and...

1494
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:01.320
Campbell Singer.

1495
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:02.699
Campbell Singer.

1496
01:04:02.699 --> 01:04:03.480
And they're actually in this.

1497
01:04:03.539 --> 01:04:06.599
So it's a kind of part two. what happens when you explore this.

1498
01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:10.980
Really, interesting take literary values and put them into a

1499
01:04:10.980 --> 01:04:11.760
reality.

1500
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:14.219
So the TARDIS does actually can actually fly into the land of

1501
01:04:14.219 --> 01:04:15.480
fiction. know that now.

1502
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:19.739
And but Gerard Savoury, because he was siding with Billy on this

1503
01:04:19.739 --> 01:04:24.300
and hearing that Wiles was corrupting the show, then thought, no

1504
01:04:24.300 --> 01:04:26.940
you're not having my characters, looked at the scripts and said, oh

1505
01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:27.599
actually, this note.

1506
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:31.500
So the reason why I was left is because of this story.

1507
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:35.159
And the reason Billy is here was stayed on because of the story.

1508
01:04:35.219 --> 01:04:39.179
And the reason it's pants is because of the politics going on at

1509
01:04:39.179 --> 01:04:39.539
the time.

1510
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:43.800
Because otherwise, explicitly, you know, Joey and Clara, the king

1511
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:47.460
and queen, Sergeant Rag and Mrs. Week, would have been the same

1512
01:04:47.460 --> 01:04:47.880
character.

1513
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:50.460
They have been George and Margaret all the way true.

1514
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:54.179
And then, you know, you've got that extra tension of, I believe at

1515
01:04:54.179 --> 01:04:56.519
the time George and Margaret was actually being performed and it

1516
01:04:56.519 --> 01:04:57.659
was very big in London.

1517
01:04:57.719 --> 01:04:58.079
Oh, okay.

1518
01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:03.420
And that was where Brian Hale's idea came from, you know, these

1519
01:05:03.420 --> 01:05:05.519
characters never show up. wouldn't it be great at use to these

1520
01:05:05.519 --> 01:05:07.619
characters, to which Donald Tosh said, oh, well, that's our boss.

1521
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:08.460
I'm sure he'll let us.

1522
01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:08.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1523
01:05:08.940 --> 01:05:11.039
Well, he did it first.

1524
01:05:11.099 --> 01:05:13.559
Yeah. until the scripts were written and then went, no, you can't

1525
01:05:13.559 --> 01:05:13.860
have them.

1526
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:18.119
And yeah, that takes a big part of the wind out of the sales.

1527
01:05:18.179 --> 01:05:22.559
You know, it would be like David Whittaker writing the crusade and

1528
01:05:22.559 --> 01:05:26.880
then the sort of family trust of King Richard saying, no, you

1529
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:27.900
can't use King Richard.

1530
01:05:27.900 --> 01:05:32.340
You know, it's that kind of narrative.

1531
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:33.599
He's been watching it.

1532
01:05:33.719 --> 01:05:35.039
Oh, it's really rough.

1533
01:05:35.099 --> 01:05:37.079
I mean, it really is so boring.

1534
01:05:37.139 --> 01:05:38.639
Michael Goff is cool.

1535
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:39.119
Yeah.

1536
01:05:39.179 --> 01:05:42.780
Well, I mean, he just spends a lot of time declaiming to an empty

1537
01:05:42.780 --> 01:05:43.019
room.

1538
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:48.840
Look, I'm someone who loves, you know, this is the 1st of...

1539
01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:51.599
It's the 1st of a series, I've heard of Doctor Who stories, like

1540
01:05:51.599 --> 01:05:53.940
the Mind Robber or the Macraterra.

1541
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:57.300
Or the greatest show in the Galaxy, which I think is a remake of

1542
01:05:57.300 --> 01:05:57.719
this.

1543
01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:01.500
All of which I think are great, but this is just awful.

1544
01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:03.780
And it is because there's no plot.

1545
01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:05.460
There's just a bunch of things that happen.

1546
01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:09.480
You know, you get to the end of the level and you get the TARDIS

1547
01:06:09.480 --> 01:06:12.420
and the crappy rhyme, which then appears over the credits, and

1548
01:06:12.420 --> 01:06:14.099
then you get to the next level and stuff.

1549
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.219
It's something that could have gone on for like 50 episodes.

1550
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:18.420
You know what I mean?

1551
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:22.800
Like, it's something that doesn't help is that when they were

1552
01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:25.380
planning on bringing the toy maker back in the 1980s and they were

1553
01:06:25.380 --> 01:06:28.079
planning on making it nightmare fair, they were planning on making

1554
01:06:28.079 --> 01:06:30.780
it about video games and amusement parks.

1555
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:32.579
Now, as the book?

1556
01:06:32.639 --> 01:06:33.239
It's not bad.

1557
01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:37.139
And the thing is, as much as you go, oh, I don't know if that

1558
01:06:37.139 --> 01:06:37.559
would work.

1559
01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:39.840
That is the modern entertainment of that era.

1560
01:06:39.900 --> 01:06:44.880
Whereas the games they are playing seem to me not to be the modern

1561
01:06:44.880 --> 01:06:46.079
entertainment of the 60s.

1562
01:06:46.139 --> 01:06:48.119
You know, even the dancing bit.

1563
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:50.820
It's ballroom dancing and it's ballet.

1564
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:54.179
It's not groovy house dancing that we'll see in just a few stories

1565
01:06:54.179 --> 01:06:55.199
in the war machines.

1566
01:06:55.260 --> 01:06:57.119
But isn't it isn't the point of it?

1567
01:06:57.179 --> 01:06:58.980
It's Victorian children's literature?

1568
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:00.059
Like that, it has...

1569
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:01.320
Yeah, it's Lewis Korean thing.

1570
01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:04.380
But I think I think it would have been far more effective if it

1571
01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:07.739
had been stuff that children in the 60s would more easily

1572
01:07:07.739 --> 01:07:08.460
recognise.

1573
01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:12.360
I mean, imagine, imagine if they had have just gone, right, We

1574
01:07:12.360 --> 01:07:15.119
can't use the meta of this play we wanted to use.

1575
01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:16.619
Let's use the meta of Doctor Who.

1576
01:07:16.679 --> 01:07:19.920
Let's have Stephen and Dodo playing Daleks around a dance floor.

1577
01:07:19.980 --> 01:07:24.539
It's Doctor Who does pop symbolism as it was in 1965.

1578
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:26.219
It's actually Carnaby Street stuff.

1579
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:29.579
Lewis Carroll was getting a huge revival. animation styles.

1580
01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:31.920
Later on, you're going to see yellow submarine with the Beatles

1581
01:07:31.920 --> 01:07:34.619
using the same kind of language, visual language.

1582
01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:37.139
It's very much what's groovy right now.

1583
01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:42.539
Ah, yeah, and then it just goes, because you know what?

1584
01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:44.940
Ideas are great. visual cues are great, but you've got to have

1585
01:07:44.940 --> 01:07:45.960
a...

1586
01:07:46.019 --> 01:07:49.139
You've got to have characters and you've got to have a plot and

1587
01:07:49.139 --> 01:07:51.840
you don't have either of those. needed a lot of work.

1588
01:07:51.900 --> 01:07:53.639
It was a last thing.

1589
01:07:53.699 --> 01:07:57.300
Well, you can see this is a political deflation of the Doctor Who

1590
01:07:57.300 --> 01:08:00.539
program where some people win, but as you said, it's a pyrrhic

1591
01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:02.099
victory for our hero, Billy.

1592
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:05.940
Yeah, I don't think so much that it was a rough script. the

1593
01:08:05.940 --> 01:08:06.840
rewrite was rushed.

1594
01:08:06.900 --> 01:08:09.059
The rewrite was very much rush.

1595
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:11.940
It was essentially rewritten from the ground up by Jerry Davis.

1596
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:13.079
You know who we haven't mentioned?

1597
01:08:13.139 --> 01:08:15.599
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Davis, as you're going to find

1598
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:15.780
out.

1599
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:21.180
We haven't mentioned Jackie Lane's portrayal of Dodo.

1600
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:23.699
Oh, dear, even...

1601
01:08:23.819 --> 01:08:27.180
And so now she's got a receive pronunciation accent and she's like

1602
01:08:27.180 --> 01:08:28.739
a blue Peter presenter.

1603
01:08:28.859 --> 01:08:31.859
But no one's got much to do, but she seems to play that her part

1604
01:08:31.859 --> 01:08:34.739
in this show as if she is a Blue Peter presenter.

1605
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:38.159
I think she's been told she's playing a show for four-year-olds.

1606
01:08:38.220 --> 01:08:40.800
And she's ridiculously thought that that's true.

1607
01:08:40.859 --> 01:08:43.020
And yeah, just...

1608
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:44.460
Doctor Who is not a children's program.

1609
01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:48.300
Dodo in this story is ridiculously stupid.

1610
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:50.279
But do you think they're both on mock?

1611
01:08:50.340 --> 01:08:51.899
You think they're both drugged out of their minds?

1612
01:08:51.899 --> 01:08:54.960
They found Adrian Hill's stash in the target.

1613
01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:59.100
The thing is, if she was going to play it like that.

1614
01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:02.880
They should have thrown in a line about how she's being affected

1615
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:06.420
by the environment because in the last episode, which we still

1616
01:09:06.420 --> 01:09:06.840
have.

1617
01:09:06.899 --> 01:09:07.800
There's no tension.

1618
01:09:07.859 --> 01:09:11.220
I mean, the last episode, I would say, is the best of the four.

1619
01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:13.199
Because they...

1620
01:09:13.260 --> 01:09:16.680
No, also some stuff that happens, so that finally has some drama.

1621
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:18.119
Yeah, they have a decent adversary.

1622
01:09:18.180 --> 01:09:21.479
So it was quite a... is terrific.

1623
01:09:21.539 --> 01:09:25.680
Yeah, again, another character, they thought that...

1624
01:09:25.739 --> 01:09:28.439
I'd like to know what older fans who were there for the 1st time

1625
01:09:28.439 --> 01:09:31.500
around, and, you know, didn't remember it so well, but what do

1626
01:09:31.500 --> 01:09:32.159
they think about it now?

1627
01:09:32.220 --> 01:09:33.000
Yeah.

1628
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:37.199
Well, Rod did say, because, as I've said before, he started

1629
01:09:37.199 --> 01:09:40.380
watching Patrick Grant, and he said, if I had a seen this when I

1630
01:09:40.380 --> 01:09:41.939
was a child, I would have switched off.

1631
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:42.960
What did he give it?

1632
01:09:43.020 --> 01:09:45.840
He gave it one out of 10, wow.

1633
01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:46.560
Wow, he's a child.

1634
01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:48.000
Which is his 2nd lowest score.

1635
01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:50.279
And yet at the time, people thought it was great.

1636
01:09:50.340 --> 01:09:52.020
Yeah, they were crazy.

1637
01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:53.760
They just finished rationing.

1638
01:09:53.819 --> 01:09:58.500
No, I think because it heats all the all the pop images of the

1639
01:09:58.500 --> 01:09:58.800
time.

1640
01:09:58.859 --> 01:10:03.000
Visually, kids remember it as being cool because it looks like it

1641
01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:03.539
should be right.

1642
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:06.539
Last episode when we were talking about things like the web planet

1643
01:10:06.539 --> 01:10:09.119
you mentioned people being on substances and whatnot.

1644
01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:11.699
I think this is another one that would have been very popular with

1645
01:10:11.699 --> 01:10:12.180
the students.

1646
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:16.619
The older university college polytechnics, you think so?

1647
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:17.520
Yeah, maybe, yeah.

1648
01:10:17.819 --> 01:10:19.380
I think you would have had visual imagery.

1649
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:20.699
Yeah.

1650
01:10:20.699 --> 01:10:23.699
I thought the arc, maybe, or definitely the web planet, maybe more

1651
01:10:23.699 --> 01:10:24.119
of that.

1652
01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:27.479
The viewers still stayed around 9000000 for this.

1653
01:10:27.539 --> 01:10:29.279
They didn't go beyond below 8.9.

1654
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:31.800
They had nothing else to do. what they're going to do.

1655
01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:33.060
ITV.

1656
01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:37.800
I suppose they didn't analyse it and talk about it, Richard.

1657
01:10:38.340 --> 01:10:42.119
It did, yeah, but you know, it's...

1658
01:10:42.119 --> 01:10:43.560
Terrible, to be so.

1659
01:10:43.619 --> 01:10:45.600
All right, well, that's a lovely way to...

1660
01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:47.460
Are we concluding our episodes?

1661
01:10:47.579 --> 01:10:48.720
I think I think we are.

1662
01:10:48.779 --> 01:10:51.359
We've just been bitching nonstop.

1663
01:10:51.420 --> 01:10:55.260
Well, can we, I just think, if we could just go for another 15

1664
01:10:55.260 --> 01:10:58.500
minutes so that I could talk about how much I hate the massacre

1665
01:10:58.500 --> 01:11:00.779
that would be a perfect ending to this episode.

1666
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:03.840
And probably the loss of the listener as well.

1667
01:11:03.899 --> 01:11:07.739
Yeah, I think that would be a perfect ending to you going home and

1668
01:11:07.739 --> 01:11:08.699
doing that by yourself.

1669
01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:12.899
But I think I actually do actually write out things about how much

1670
01:11:12.899 --> 01:11:14.100
I hate them.

1671
01:11:14.100 --> 01:11:15.720
And tape them to telephone poles.

1672
01:11:15.779 --> 01:11:16.800
Oh, that's you.

1673
01:11:16.859 --> 01:11:17.520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1674
01:11:17.579 --> 01:11:18.539
I live.

1675
01:11:18.539 --> 01:11:19.140
Yeah, yeah.

1676
01:11:19.140 --> 01:11:20.880
Or sample, put pixels.

1677
01:11:20.939 --> 01:11:25.079
Someone's actually given your picture of Leonard Sachs at the

1678
01:11:25.079 --> 01:11:27.300
admiral did holding an even bigger moustache.

1679
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite elaborate.

1680
01:11:29.579 --> 01:11:31.800
But no, I think I think it just goes...

1681
01:11:31.859 --> 01:11:32.819
I think it just goes to show.

1682
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:36.600
I mean, these 3 stories are the 3 stories when John Wiles was in

1683
01:11:36.600 --> 01:11:37.260
total control.

1684
01:11:37.319 --> 01:11:39.060
It just shows...

1685
01:11:39.060 --> 01:11:40.920
How terrible he was for Doctor Who.

1686
01:11:40.979 --> 01:11:42.779
You know, I don't want to say anything against the man.

1687
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:44.819
Obviously, he's no longer with us, and I know very little about

1688
01:11:44.819 --> 01:11:46.140
him outside of Doctor Who.

1689
01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:49.619
He did kick puppies though, I'm told.

1690
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:52.199
Well, his background is, I thought he ate them.

1691
01:11:52.260 --> 01:11:55.920
His background is in children's theatre for the death.

1692
01:11:55.979 --> 01:11:59.340
I'd like to think that, actually, maybe he's a nice person.

1693
01:11:59.340 --> 01:12:00.899
That there's more to him than that.

1694
01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:01.380
Yeah.

1695
01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:05.340
I think he had a lot of battle with Billy, and he was coming in on

1696
01:12:05.340 --> 01:12:09.359
the back of, you know, an extraordinary producer, and he look, I

1697
01:12:09.359 --> 01:12:12.000
mean, he probably only kicked puppies on really bad days.

1698
01:12:12.359 --> 01:12:14.760
When he was like really cross.

1699
01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.119
Yeah, well, you know what?

1700
01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:18.779
That's the thing.

1701
01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:20.760
Everyone's got their own story.

1702
01:12:20.819 --> 01:12:23.399
And when we come down to it, each of these stories does have

1703
01:12:23.399 --> 01:12:27.300
something to redeem them. even in the celestial toy maker.

1704
01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:28.319
Well, it's only 4 episodes.

1705
01:12:28.380 --> 01:12:29.699
It's only could have been eight.

1706
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:30.840
It could have been 20.

1707
01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:32.100
It's only 4 episodes.

1708
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:33.479
Michael Goff's very good.

1709
01:12:33.539 --> 01:12:36.060
The arc has a really good idea behind it.

1710
01:12:36.119 --> 01:12:37.920
And the massacre is brilliant.

1711
01:12:37.979 --> 01:12:40.619
And as we're ending now, you're not going to say anything else

1712
01:12:40.619 --> 01:12:40.920
Nathan.

1713
01:12:41.399 --> 01:12:42.180
Good night.

1714
01:12:42.539 --> 01:12:44.039
Good night.

1715
01:12:44.100 --> 01:12:45.840
The mess is terrible.

1716
01:12:45.899 --> 01:12:49.619
Thank you very much for taking a partisan, a bipartisan view.

1717
01:12:49.739 --> 01:12:50.819
This, dear listener.

1718
01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:51.180
Thank you.

1719
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:51.659
Bye.

1720
01:12:57.720 --> 01:12:59.760
You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan

1721
01:12:59.760 --> 01:13:01.680
Botomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone.

1722
01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:04.439
This episode, someone lost their veagle, who was recorded on

1723
01:13:04.439 --> 01:13:05.760
Sunday, the 10th of August.

1724
01:13:05.819 --> 01:13:08.399
The next episode will be released on September 14th.

1725
01:13:08.460 --> 01:13:11.340
You can find us at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through

1726
01:13:11.340 --> 01:13:14.760
entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1727
01:13:14.819 --> 01:13:16.859
If we are to play endless games together.

1728
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:17.939
My choice is Mario Kart.

1729
01:13:21.119 --> 01:13:23.460
This is Flight through Entirety.

1730
01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:25.979
Now, what was my thing?

1731
01:13:26.220 --> 01:13:28.920
My thing, what stories are we doing?

1732
01:13:28.979 --> 01:13:30.420
Who am I?

1733
01:13:31.020 --> 01:13:35.340
We're the only podcast without a ping pong balling.