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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:40:24

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We're back again for part three of our epic four part podcast of Doctor Who season three.

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This is Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast coming at you live from the Security Kitchen.

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Hooray.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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And I'm here too.

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And we're starting off with a classic of Doctor Who, Nathan, I'm gagging you for now.

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The massacre.

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Take it away, Richard.

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Okay, I begged for this on bent knee.

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And other things that we're not allowed to mention.

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So many reasons.

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It happens to occur on my birth date.

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It's one of, I think, the most interesting points in modern Euro history in that it never has a story had a more apt name than this.

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It's about the conflagration of religion that's been burning away, pretty much for the last 1000 years.

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Protestants and Catholics coming together and just the incendiary results of that in a modern city.

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Paris.

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Okay, we're talking the TARDIS lands in 1572.

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We're at the point of of the Renaissance.

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We're at a point now where modern humanity, modern, learned men.

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Take note as being educated, civilised, responding to the world, and then all hell breaks loose.

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This is something that really talks about.

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A whole lot of things that are completely outside the domain of Doctor Who, and one of the reasons that people, when I, when I'm asked, why are you a fan of Doctor Who?

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I said, because it's everything you want it to be.

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You can drop it into anything and it will take it on board and do something really interesting with it and hopefully, and this certainly does for me, give you a perspective you might not have thought of before.

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Nathan, you're a fan of the massacre too, aren't you?

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Well, listen, I, you know, I watched the Massic for the 1st time to prepare for the podcast and I had already, even before the idea of the podcast came up.

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I'd already kind of had the idea that I would watch Doctor Who, you know, all the way through the 60s.

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And I've got several friends.

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We call it the Great Journey of Life, you know, like Horns of Nimon style, where they just watch, you know, an episode and you've been doing it as well with Rod.

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Yeah, Brandon.

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So we're almost up to the horns of Nimon, actually.

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Well, lucky you.

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And I had long heard that this was terrific.

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I think Cornell, Day and Topping, rave about it in the discontinuity guy.

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Sandifer says that it's, you know, extraordinary and...

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Yeah, one of the best things that...

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And so I was prepared to be impressed.

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And it was just so boring.

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I really, like, like, I know that I've been flogging to death the idea that stories are much better when they have, you know, flange faced villains in this.

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That's right.

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Are you saying the cliffhagger for episode 2 should have been Stephen walks into the De Medici throne room and the queen uses her perception filter and suddenly turns around and says, you dare disturb me at this time.

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That would be great or if she pulled a rubber face off and she was a Jaguar.

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But, like, I just founded the lion heart.

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Sorry, carry on. just found this so incredibly tiresome.

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I'll tell you why.

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Like every time we go to the past, we spend time in a tavern and then prison, you know, just have it then prison and we get that again here.

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The doctor's barely in it.

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And like, and everyone goes, oh, he does a masterful acting thing as the abbot of Amboise, where he doesn't do all of his ticks and all that, but they have it if Amboise is only in it for like a couple of minutes and then he's dead.

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And like Stephen, who we've already said to someone with no discernable characteristics, who isn't, you know, like he's a great actor.

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He's quite charismatic to watch, but he's not a character in the way that Ian and Barbara were characters.

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This is the 1st story where the doctor is absent, as you say, and...

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He has to carry the narrative, but there's not enough there to carry the narrative.

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I don't know, but you need a backstory.

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I think the casual viewer, not everyone's watching every week. would just take him as being...

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But he could have just been some guy who came across from London, you know, and didn't know the local thing.

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I mean, does that matter?

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I think it matters because why am I watching this?

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You know, like, it's not Doctor Who then.

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The doctor's not in it.

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Stephen has like nothing that happens to Stephen couldn't have happened to some someone who had just come across this week.

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This whole scenes where they're explaining the details of this historical period to each other.

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That scene with the queen where it's all just just huge, huge wodges of exposition where they're all explaining to each other.

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I don't know what's going on here as well because I actually love an extent.

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I have to say, I love a plot dump.

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This story takes place the day after the marriage of Protestant Henri of Navarre to Charles Neurf's sister, Sir Charles IX.

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Navarre was a principality at the south of France.

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You should say that at this stage in history, France is all the reasons that I'm going into now that Nathan loves this story. with all their background history.

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Tell us more about France. when you get real stuff and real history thrown into Doctor Who because it becomes more dangerous.

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The whole stuff if you can't change time.

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I just think it's more interesting because it's relevant to real to real events.

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It's not simply Planet Zog with the Zogloids.

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It's actually something you can look up and there's a whole lot more going on.

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And I think the narrative takes it more seriously.

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The cast does, the writers and directors take it more seriously because it's based on real events.

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It might be a prejudice to science fiction.

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Certainly at this time, as we've said before, science fiction, was predominantly the nature and state of the pulp magazines and the Saturday matter.

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This is what I...

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Yeah, it is.

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And but it also is able to then plumb greater depths.

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And lateralness in characterisation, which for me, Doctor Who is about how much of a reaction and characterisation you get in the story.

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It's not for me so much about whether or not they've got a rubbery.

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Oh, no, but there's no characterisation either.

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Everyone's... just had a moment.

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There is.

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The players in this. are absolutely fabulous and you don't need to see this.

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I recommend that if you want to have a look at this.

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Let's just listen to the audio version of it because it works beautifully as a radio play.

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They aren't actually, it's not helped by the reconstruction.

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I wouldn't bother the rest.

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There's like one picture of what's the...

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Yeah, there's one picture of gas.

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And they just Photoshop him over different backgrounds in the state.

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It would be very distracting trying to watch it. recon on this.

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Although...

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I really enjoyed the recon.

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It helped the story come to light for me.

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And when we finished watching the Recorn.

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Because after each story, I take down Rod's reaction, anything he wants to say about it.

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And he actually said, um, actually, give me a minute. still processing this.

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And he hates the recons.

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He watched them, but, you know, he's like, I want moving images.

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He said, I actually didn't miss the moving images this time.

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I know nothing about this period in history.

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I did not, I'd heard the name Huguenots.

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But I didn't know what happened.

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This story makes me want to find out more and no other Doctor Who story, no other Doctor Who story historical has made me want to find out more about the period than this story.

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I agree.

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And I mean, to me, in a way, Rod is my acid test for a lot of Doctor Who stories.

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Because, interestingly, as I just said, we're halfway through Nightmare of Eden, he gave City of Death and 8.

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He gave creature from the pit 8.5 .

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You know, so it's very...

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It's very interesting to see his... to see his reactions.

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And the massacre.

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I'm sorry, Nathan, but I'm with Richard on this one.

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I think it's a wonderful piece of drama.

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I think it's a great vehicle for Peter Purvis.

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And I think that Peter Purpose being that Stephen, I should say, rather, being a space pilot is not so important here as the morality of Stephen's character and as someone who has just been through a massacre and has just seen his friends die and has seen people die for specifically for him.

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Because Katerina sacrifices herself for him.

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Brett Vion is killed because he's trying to help him and the doctor.

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Sarah sacrifices herself for him and the doctor.

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He, you know, he is so sick and tired of death, but he can do nothing to stop it.

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And it, it also raises, and Stephen raises the question of, where was the doctor, you know, he was off trying to meet the scientist.

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If the doctor has been here?

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What could he have done?

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And a bit like Dalek's master plan?

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It's like the doctor can't do anything.

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Yeah, and that's, but here, for some reason it feels better.

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Not better, but...

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It does feel better.

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Should we talk a bit about the story?

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Because a lot, you know, maybe the person listening hasn't. doesn't know what this show is.

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Yes, sorry, I didn't interrupt you.

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He turns up and goes to a pub.

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And people who are not very interesting.

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The doctor goes away and talks to bin row the heretic from the 60s.

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He's a bit riotless operation.

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It's not been Rober heretic, actually. coordinator Engen...

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No, no, I know, but do you know what I mean?

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He's Susan to his mates.

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Didn't Susan N going to play Vivian Faye?

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When I say being with a heretic, I don't mean the actor.

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Okay, he's someone...

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Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah, and like, all of this is going on. making it, you're saying it's, you know, the when the modern, you know, like this, the striking thing about this is it happens so close to our own time and it happens, it happens with very much modern politics.

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Just as modernity is kind of, and that's what, um, cheaty...

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What's he called?

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Scientist.

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Charles Preslam.

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Press Lan is a scientist in Paris when the term itself was almost a reason for expulsion. under the current Catholic rule.

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Really interesting times.

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Catherine de Medici was the mother of King Charles, the knight.

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See, I'm just falling asleep during that scene.

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Well, I'll tell you what, one of the things she's credited for is introducing Morton French cuisine, the actual, the, the types of, yeah, the tropes of, is what I was looking for.

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Oh, the drink. of Italian cooking brought to France and modern cooking actually started.

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This is not me saying this, this is the wonderful.

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La Ruth.

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The wonderful Laris and his Larisk astronomique.

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It's got 3 fantastic performances from 3 major players of the time.

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You just wouldn't expect in these roles.

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As you mentioned, it's got Eric Chitty as Preslan, a scientist who's very, who's when research was something that was very dangerous to do, who've got Admiral de Colony, and Gas Bar de Colony, played by Leonard Sucks, who is our very own Barusa in the Ark of Infinity.

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We own him.

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And better than that, Eric Thompson, the father of Eriton, Emma Thompson. their father of Emma Thompson, and the author, and the complete rewriting of the magic roundabout.

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It's amazingly bizarre thing.

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As Gaston. notice that.

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It's Eric Thompson.

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Now, Eric Thompson was known at the time as pretty much the Peter Purvis of the 60s in that he was the face of children's television in England.

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And the gentle, lovely, make-do and men's guy who was the go-to whenever you wanted someone charming to talk to the kids.

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And he, as Emma Thompson speaks of, because he sadly he died quite young.

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Emma Toxin herself speaks of her father as being all of these extraordinary things.

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Here he plays a volatile, acerbic, pick up a sword and cut his way through the opposition character, everyone's playing against type, and better than that.

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The reason I really love this story is not just the history stuff, although it falls on my birthday, which is in fact the day of the massacres are kind of resonant for that, is that you really get to see Billy Shine and stick one in the eye to John Wiles, who was trying to get rid of him because He plays the dual role, not to spoil this for you.

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Although it's actually intrinsic to the story. you not meant to know how this is going to end up.

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Yeah, whether it's a dream.

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Billy, for some reason, Billy plays the abbot of Ambroise, and hence the confusion and the narrative being able to go the way it does.

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When Stephen sees him in the street and thinks that the abbot is, the doctor, so a whole lot of confusion, terrible things happen because of this.

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Billy plays the abbot, contrary to all expectations, absolutely note and word perfect.

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Not a lot of lines in it, but he is phlegmatic and cold and measured and controlled.

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There's no, none of the usual things that we assume is something of Billy's own name before. person in the pub, absolutely not.

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Which makes you think at this point even the fluffs maybe are deliberate.

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Maybe they are because who can say it because he just gets this so cold and so right.

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I mean, he is barely in it.

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And and like the Abbott isn't in it all that much.

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And and and the other thing is, you know, this is just so worthy in such an important document of historical blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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I just think that's all fun. having a stupid science fiction conceit where it just so happens that the abbot looks exactly like the doctor for no reason at all.

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But that kind of undermines it a little bit.

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I like that it's kind of the oddness of it, the fact this isn't, it plays with history, but then it throws in fantasy.

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It doesn't have to be always BSF.

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Doctor Who can be anything.

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Nathan is exactly what you like.

191
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Well, what I love is that we've also got references, because it's my story.

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I can keep going with this, just like Brendan Karl, Nathan, last time.

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If you've fed any of Brian Green's stuff, here's the...

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That's from Beverly Hills known.

195
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He is indeed.

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He's the kind of scary smiling scientist, the Canadian scientist, has written some fantastic books and done some great TV shows, even though it often feels like he's selling Amway when you watch him on TV, but he writes really well.

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And the last chapter in one of his last books, which I have just here to hand, we'll mention at the end, um, is that he, um, that modern physics seems to be showing that we are a holographic three-dimensional representation of an alternate universe of a surface reality and that we are a mere reflection via a black hole of that reality.

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Therefore, the idea of the doctor and other time lords, as we've seen, the 2nd doctor has the face of salamata.

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Salamata.

200
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The 12 doctor looks like that.

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That, the 12 doctor... old Rome, and the 3rd doctor looks like a washerwoman from a, from an electronics and mining base in the middle of Wales.

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Yeah.

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I just like that there are so many things that doctors can reference and bring in and that the fantasy side of this, that the doppelganger of the doctor is just a lovely little conceit in what is otherwise a really hard story.

204
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Can we get to the girls?

205
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Because this is all about what we can do to the girls.

206
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Could I just say something about the...

207
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Just build on what you were saying about the Abbot having the same face as the doctor.

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For those of you who don't know, around this time, William Hartnell was actually pitching story ideas.

209
00:16:14.460 --> 00:16:16.559
Ah, yes, the production crew.

210
00:16:16.620 --> 00:16:24.299
And one of the story ideas he pitched and he sent a letter in reply to a fan that has been reprinted in a book somewhere.

211
00:16:24.360 --> 00:16:25.559
I'm sorry, I don't know what it is.

212
00:16:25.860 --> 00:16:28.620
Son of Doctor Who, was one of Billy's ideas.

213
00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:36.299
And it, Billy, it seems like most of the actors who play the doctors say they were getting slightly restless playing the one part all the time.

214
00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:44.279
So Billy's idea was that Doctor Who's villainous sum would turn up with his own TARDIS and be played by Billy in a black wig.

215
00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:46.200
As his younger self?

216
00:16:46.320 --> 00:16:50.519
Because Billy looks 10 years older, as the doctor, then he did in real life.

217
00:16:50.580 --> 00:16:52.860
So it's feasible that he could look.

218
00:16:52.980 --> 00:16:56.879
It's visible that he had had a bit of a hard one.

219
00:16:56.940 --> 00:17:00.840
It's feasible that he could look younger with makeup and whatnot.

220
00:17:00.899 --> 00:17:11.759
And that didn't happen, but there is a theory, which makes a lot of sense, that the Abbot of Amboise, uh, Billy playing the Abbot of Amboise, was John Wild's way of doing 2 things.

221
00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:18.240
A, it was taking the emphasis away from Billy, because the Abbott of Amboise is in so little of the story.

222
00:17:18.299 --> 00:17:21.779
Yeah, it's like in 2 scenes and one of them is lying dead in the gutter.

223
00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:23.700
I mean, really, it's not bad.

224
00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:26.220
Also, it was a way to...

225
00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:33.839
Some people think it was way for John Wiles to prove that, look, you can't even play, you can't play another part.

226
00:17:33.900 --> 00:17:40.200
You can't even play your own part and much like Tom Baker later in The Deadly Assassin, where Tom turned around and said, I don't need an assistant.

227
00:17:40.259 --> 00:17:43.079
And Philip H Quiff said, we're going to give you a story to show you it doesn't work.

228
00:17:43.140 --> 00:17:44.819
And it happened to be brilliant.

229
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:46.980
Just like Billy happens to be brilliant.

230
00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:47.880
Nothing comes of it.

231
00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:53.279
Billy doesn't play another part again on the show, but as you were saying, he was bloody good.

232
00:17:53.339 --> 00:17:54.240
Really good.

233
00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:56.519
You were going to say something about the women, I think.

234
00:17:56.579 --> 00:17:57.539
Well, it makes me think funny.

235
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:04.200
Thank you for mentioning that, though, because it makes me think that maybe Donald Tosh was more on Billy's side than we record.

236
00:18:04.259 --> 00:18:08.099
I still get that impression hearing Donald talk now in that...

237
00:18:08.160 --> 00:18:09.119
Damn good writer.

238
00:18:09.539 --> 00:18:10.319
He wrote this.

239
00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:11.460
Well, yeah, exactly.

240
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:16.980
It's John Lucarati's best script when it's actually so much Donald Tosh that John Lucarati refused to have his name on it.

241
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:19.140
Yeah, Lukarotti kind of didn't...

242
00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:20.759
So a lot of it was...

243
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:23.099
No one's credited for episodes one to three.

244
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:24.059
Really?

245
00:18:24.119 --> 00:18:25.380
Lukarotti entered.

246
00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:26.460
There's no writing.

247
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:29.880
Yeah, because by the time of episode four, the head of serials, I believe.

248
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:32.819
You need a writer's credits, so they both...

249
00:18:32.819 --> 00:18:36.059
Nathan will need someone to blame in 48 years time.

250
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:49.500
What happened with this is that Donald Tosh had to rewrite the scripts that more interestingly, and this is something that Lucarotti was really opposed to and why he took his name off the rights, he brought about the duality of the doctor and the abbot.

251
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:58.440
In the original scripts, Billy was in the scenes against, not exactly up against the atmosphere as we know, but it was always clear that they were separate people.

252
00:18:58.500 --> 00:19:02.940
Why this is so good is that we're seeing it from Steven's place.

253
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:04.799
We don't know that the abbot is not...

254
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:05.700
Until he's dead in the ditch.

255
00:19:05.819 --> 00:19:07.019
And then we, yes.

256
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:07.440
Oh, really?

257
00:19:07.500 --> 00:19:09.480
That could be the doctor dead in the ditch.

258
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.440
We've just seen 2 companions killed in the previous series.

259
00:19:13.500 --> 00:19:15.660
I don't think we I don't buy that.

260
00:19:15.779 --> 00:19:18.839
It's certainly one of the best cliffhangers of the whole series, which is what I'm saying.

261
00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:27.240
Yeah, I'm sorry to cut you off, Richard, but Nathan, by that logic, we should never have a cliffhanger with the doctor in danger because we know it's not effective because we know we get out.

262
00:19:27.299 --> 00:19:28.140
No, that's not at all.

263
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:29.460
How will it get out of it?

264
00:19:29.519 --> 00:19:30.599
will he get out of it?

265
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:36.000
It's not like next week will I come back and the main character will be dead and then the show will have to go on without him.

266
00:19:36.059 --> 00:19:40.500
The doctor in Peril cliffhanger works because we're going, ooh, how's he going to get out of that?

267
00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:43.380
Yeah, well you don't get much more imperilled than being dead in a gutter.

268
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:44.579
Yeah, well then we know it's not him.

269
00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:45.359
Do you know what I mean?

270
00:19:45.420 --> 00:19:56.279
Like, I just, oh, it just exhausts me this story and it really is them. experimenting with getting rid of Hartnell and like flailing.

271
00:19:56.339 --> 00:19:58.140
They don't know what to do.

272
00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:02.220
And so they, let's try with Stephen as the leading man.

273
00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.359
Let's marginalise Hartnell, who is barely in it for 4 episodes.

274
00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:10.680
And I just think that the result is just not very interesting.

275
00:20:10.740 --> 00:20:13.500
You know, it's not a Doctor Who story.

276
00:20:13.559 --> 00:20:15.660
And the doctor, like the doctor leaves.

277
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:29.099
And all of the, like massacre, is sort of realised, and I, this is the recon, and I don't know how it was realised in the actual thing, but it's realised with sort of contemporary engravings showing pictures of people being.

278
00:20:29.099 --> 00:20:33.119
Yes, that was the case in the original. like there's no even real peril.

279
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:35.099
It's sort of just a historical thing that happened.

280
00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:37.500
It had happened before the story came.

281
00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:39.119
It still happened when the story ended.

282
00:20:39.180 --> 00:20:40.619
We've had no effect on it.

283
00:20:40.680 --> 00:20:42.359
We haven't really learned from it.

284
00:20:42.420 --> 00:20:44.640
Like, have we learned something about religious intolerance?

285
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:45.119
Not really.

286
00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:45.900
Do you know what I mean?

287
00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:46.920
Like it's all just...

288
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:48.720
Oh, I have to, I have to terribly...

289
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.519
Sorry, David, I only tell you.

290
00:20:50.579 --> 00:20:53.099
I adjust my monoid wing.

291
00:20:53.160 --> 00:20:54.720
My Margaret role?

292
00:20:54.779 --> 00:20:57.599
No, I think I'm sorry you're wrong, David, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong.

293
00:20:57.660 --> 00:21:02.279
I think Judith was about to come out again.

294
00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.200
This time she did.

295
00:21:04.259 --> 00:21:04.799
We miss her.

296
00:21:04.859 --> 00:21:06.839
There's just lovely stuff.

297
00:21:06.900 --> 00:21:15.299
This is some really serious things going on here and there's the friction between Protestant and Catholic.

298
00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:22.980
Look, in Australia, at this time in the early 60s, you still, as a Catholic person, couldn't be a member of the Australia Club.

299
00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:31.440
There are lots of positions that were not open to you because Protestants and the Masons, in fact, were still running the jobs and the business.

300
00:21:31.500 --> 00:21:36.779
You couldn't, you could get, you could rise to a certain high place in the public service, but that's about it.

301
00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:41.160
So this story would have been very relevant for a lot of people watching it at the time.

302
00:21:41.220 --> 00:21:43.259
It's very much a modern story.

303
00:21:43.380 --> 00:21:44.339
That's evil in it.

304
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:45.059
Do you know what I mean?

305
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:46.559
It's like the Catholics are bad guys.

306
00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:49.259
We're automatically on the same...

307
00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:51.359
They're doing a bit of massacring.

308
00:21:51.420 --> 00:21:52.619
This is what I love about this.

309
00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:59.279
Admiral Admiral de Colligny, the, the, um, Hello, it sucks character is the biggest warmonger of the lot.

310
00:21:59.339 --> 00:22:06.359
He's the one in this story whose advocating war with Spain as an alliance for to get in with the Dutch.

311
00:22:06.420 --> 00:22:09.839
And I'm not going into the background in the history of the story because you know I'm busting to.

312
00:22:09.900 --> 00:22:15.359
But because it's really complex, and I can talk for 10 minutes about the history of this, which is why I love it.

313
00:22:15.420 --> 00:22:17.339
There's so much complexity in the backstory.

314
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:20.400
Whether or not the casual viewer would have known it then.

315
00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:27.900
Well, you certainly wouldn't have got any of it on the screen because it's just lots of people in talking to each other in a set that's kind of...

316
00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:28.619
Yeah, possibly.

317
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:33.480
Yeah, sadly, we don't know what the direction would have been like, but the audio performances are certainly fantastic.

318
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:38.099
The final seeings, then Tosh chose these drawings because, you know, obviously that are budget considerations.

319
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:54.059
So when they actually showed the massacre, what they actually showed was contemporary engravings, you know, of the time of what was going on, and the BBC was apparently, you know, Inverted Com was flooded with letters because the engravings themselves were so violent and expletive.

320
00:22:54.119 --> 00:23:00.599
So this is this would have, I think, had a lot of temerity to it as well for going out there, but a lot of texture.

321
00:23:00.660 --> 00:23:08.579
I think that this season is actually pretty fantastic for its experimentalism and I love this one, forgiving me as my kind of viewer.

322
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:13.500
I can't be the only one out there who really loves. but it's strength and complexity.

323
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:14.339
Absolutely.

324
00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:15.240
No, no, no, no.

325
00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:16.380
I like complexity.

326
00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:17.279
I like strength.

327
00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:19.859
My objection is I don't think this has either of those.

328
00:23:19.920 --> 00:23:24.539
I think it's just, it's really talky.

329
00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:25.920
It's full of exposition.

330
00:23:25.980 --> 00:23:28.319
It has none of the characters that I'm interested in watching.

331
00:23:28.380 --> 00:23:31.200
No one really seems to learn anything from it.

332
00:23:31.259 --> 00:23:33.359
It's just like life.

333
00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:34.680
Yeah, that's right.

334
00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:37.559
Well, that's it, if I, that's the old quote.

335
00:23:37.619 --> 00:23:39.779
If I want a long, boring story with no point to it.

336
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.079
I've got my life, you know, like I don't want to watch the massacre.

337
00:23:43.140 --> 00:23:48.059
Can I just urge everyone, this is one of the reason I love this and I begged for this story?

338
00:23:48.180 --> 00:23:55.079
I wasn't given it is because of the performances and nuances and the language and also it's beautifully done.

339
00:23:55.140 --> 00:23:59.759
Tosh is a really good writer and he really, really cements that for me in this.

340
00:23:59.819 --> 00:24:00.960
The man can write.

341
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:05.460
And just the tonalities and textures in the in the performances.

342
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:06.779
It's a lovely radio play.

343
00:24:06.839 --> 00:24:09.059
And it's really worth listening to.

344
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:12.059
Can I just say, I also miss out on someone I would have loved.

345
00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:21.960
No, it does get a bit Jennifer Saunders with the Mamoset, Mamoset accent, but the character that Anne Robertson plays in this, who is...

346
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:22.980
Chaplet.

347
00:24:23.099 --> 00:24:25.740
Yeah, and Chapelain and Chapelain.

348
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:31.259
She's really lovely and she has this absolutely demonstrable squeeze on Stephen.

349
00:24:31.319 --> 00:24:33.059
There's a real crush happening here.

350
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:34.980
And it's a lovely a lovely moment.

351
00:24:35.700 --> 00:24:38.160
And it's handled maturely.

352
00:24:38.220 --> 00:24:39.359
Very maturely.

353
00:24:39.420 --> 00:24:39.660
Thank you.

354
00:24:39.720 --> 00:24:41.940
She's and she is a strong female character.

355
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:49.980
She's the 1st strong female character we've had since, um, well, not including... um, recurring or regular characters.

356
00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:52.920
However, a lot of sort of wine and panicky stuff in the thing.

357
00:24:53.460 --> 00:24:56.579
No, she's strong and she's the 1st underclass, not just working class.

358
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.240
She's the 1st modern slave class that actually gets a voice.

359
00:25:00.299 --> 00:25:01.740
And they kill her.

360
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:02.759
Spoiler alert.

361
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:04.319
Well, they do.

362
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:04.859
Yeah.

363
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:06.960
Oh, God, do they?

364
00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:08.819
Are we up to the point where we get to the last five?

365
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.259
Yes, can we just get rid of this story?

366
00:25:12.359 --> 00:25:19.680
before we go. on to the bad thing that happens in the last 5 minutes, let's go on to the good thing, which is Steven's tirade at the doctor.

367
00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:21.000
Oh, it's so nice.

368
00:25:21.059 --> 00:25:22.799
He's going to storm.

369
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:23.700
Oh, yeah, that would be great.

370
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.019
Okay, okay.

371
00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:28.079
Okay, let's what, someone's lost their beagle or their tennis ball.

372
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:29.640
Okay, Wimbledon Comic.

373
00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:31.440
Sorry, sorry.

374
00:25:31.500 --> 00:25:33.539
Let's put a cork on that.

375
00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:41.519
Nathan, cork on that and just talk about Stevens just utter fed up.

376
00:25:41.579 --> 00:25:44.880
Stephen has had a year of seeing everyone bogged off.

377
00:25:44.940 --> 00:25:56.039
Everyone dead and the doctor has a chance to rescue a girl who has actively assisted them in this story and actually in a way allowed this, allowed them both to be saved and come through this.

378
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:58.859
And the doctor just leaves her in Paris.

379
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:06.779
And the only advice he says is stay the shut up for 4 days inside because everyone else is going to get horribly murdered.

380
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:09.660
And when you consider...

381
00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:15.299
Where Stephen's character has come from, you know, he's been imprisoned by the... by the McAnoys.

382
00:26:15.299 --> 00:26:20.099
Very painful. for 2 or 3 years, you know, and so, you know, he desperately wants his freedom.

383
00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:27.660
But as soon as he gets out, like he has a couple of nice adventures with the doctor and Vicky, and then he just travels around seeing people horribly...

384
00:26:27.779 --> 00:26:36.240
People, you know, people, people helping him and, you know, each of the leading up situations, he's like, yeah, the doctor can't do anything about that.

385
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:38.759
Like, Catarina, the doctor can't do anything about that.

386
00:26:38.819 --> 00:26:41.339
Sarah, the doctor was in danger as well.

387
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:42.480
No, I'm agreeing with that.

388
00:26:42.539 --> 00:26:46.019
But yeah, as you say, this the doctor has a chance to do something.

389
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:53.880
This is the 1st time the doctor can actually exactly enter into the narrative and save a girl and he doesn't do it.

390
00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.339
Is it because she doesn't remind him of his granddaughter?

391
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:58.440
Well, I think it's...

392
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:00.720
Because that might be a reason why the next one's allowed to stay.

393
00:27:00.779 --> 00:27:07.559
I think it might actually more be a reason, more be an indication of what he said way back in the Aztecs if you can't change history.

394
00:27:07.920 --> 00:27:11.700
And unlike a lot of other doctors, he actually stands by that.

395
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:13.619
But that's for major characters.

396
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:17.400
He's always allowed himself to assist minor characters and you can't...

397
00:27:17.460 --> 00:27:18.420
He didn't assist Richard.

398
00:27:18.539 --> 00:27:20.279
He didn't assist King Richard.

399
00:27:20.339 --> 00:27:22.680
King is not a major character.

400
00:27:22.740 --> 00:27:29.339
No, no, but as you said, no, no, but that's my point. is not important in world in world narrative.

401
00:27:29.400 --> 00:27:30.960
So, yeah, we get there.

402
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:38.519
Yeah, he leaves it pretty much leaves it to our own devices and Stephen wants to storm off because and it's a really nicely written scene. if you're only going to listen to a bit of it. listen to the last part.

403
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:40.859
See, Stephen just for the last part is good advice.

404
00:27:40.920 --> 00:28:00.240
Yes, because then you get that speech and it's the speech in, in adventuring space and time as well, where the doctor, has this speech where he says everyone leaves him in the end and none of them understood him, not even Susan and things. and he talks about Eden and Barbara and Vicky and mentions everyone who's been a companion before.

405
00:28:00.299 --> 00:28:05.460
Stephen has stormed off because The doctor hasn't saved everyone.

406
00:28:05.700 --> 00:28:11.940
Which I would nearly do as well because I'm just sick to death of this. you know, like everyone gets killed.

407
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:20.339
And here, you know, there's no even sort of redeeming spectacle or anything for 4 previous episodes and then we get a giant, you know, massacre at the end.

408
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:25.680
So he storms off and the doctor gives a spectacular speech and he really does a great job of it.

409
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:40.980
And in adventures in an adventure in space and time, that's the scene where he kind of fluffs it, you know, and it loses it and that's the scene that Gates uses to illustrate that Hartnell's suffering from arteriosclerosis.

410
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:42.660
And it's good that it happens.

411
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.059
Thematically it happens in a scene where he's reflecting on all of the people who he loved, who have left the program.

412
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:53.579
So in an adventure in space and time, Billy ruins that speech.

413
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:56.519
But in the actual show. spectacular.

414
00:28:56.579 --> 00:28:57.359
He does a great job.

415
00:28:57.420 --> 00:29:06.180
But then after all of that, Stephen comes back because, like, a policeman's coming because, you know, and that's awful.

416
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.700
And then so it all just goes nowhere.

417
00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:11.279
We don't learn anything, nowhere.

418
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:12.599
We have drum roll.

419
00:29:12.660 --> 00:29:14.339
We have the introduction of the very...

420
00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:16.380
We've just lost a mirror ball off the Chumley cake.

421
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:21.599
How prescient is that, just as we're about to announce the introduction of the new companion?

422
00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:23.279
All together now.

423
00:29:23.339 --> 00:29:25.859
Dodo Chaplet.

424
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:29.759
Now, the giveaway is that she has a name that means stupid person.

425
00:29:29.819 --> 00:29:33.359
Like a name that means extinction.

426
00:29:33.420 --> 00:29:41.460
Yeah, yeah, but like dodoes are not just dead as a dodo, but they're kind of stupid, you know, like and so like instantly she's on the back.

427
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:47.220
The 1st thing she says, walking into a time and space machine, that's dimensionally transient.

428
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:48.180
Where's the phone?

429
00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:49.740
And that's it.

430
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:54.420
And she has a terrible northern accent, like a terrible fake...

431
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:54.779
Not long.

432
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:55.980
She was meant to be cockney.

433
00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:00.059
And until about the 3rd scene of the...

434
00:30:08.700 --> 00:30:11.940
That's what we were thrust out of that.

435
00:30:11.940 --> 00:30:13.259
We were doing the army already.

436
00:30:13.319 --> 00:30:14.220
We're in the ark.

437
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:16.019
Oh, sorry, I thought we were.

438
00:30:16.079 --> 00:30:21.359
Thank you all for listening to the massacre, as I'm sure you've all just gone and done because it really is the best one ever. moving on.

439
00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:28.200
Yeah, so by the 3rd scene of the art, Dodo is no longer cockney because the big bods at the BBC said, you can't.

440
00:30:28.200 --> 00:30:33.839
I know, because Jared Savoury said, I don't want her accent ricocheting up and down the airport, which didn't actually exist at the time.

441
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.180
But it really doesn't.

442
00:30:36.359 --> 00:30:39.240
No, they said we still want to import it.

443
00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:42.240
Yeah, she starts off northern, then goes Colkney, then goes terribly RP.

444
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah, and then on, like by the time of the celestial toy maker.

445
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:50.279
She's like a play school presenter with the RP accent.

446
00:30:50.339 --> 00:30:55.740
There is an instroid explanation for because she says something and she says something cool or modern.

447
00:30:55.799 --> 00:30:57.839
She says something that Christopher Eccleston might say.

448
00:30:57.900 --> 00:31:03.119
She says something's dead, dead, cool, or dead, something.

449
00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:04.799
Like she uses a modern language.

450
00:31:04.859 --> 00:31:06.180
She does say it's fab.

451
00:31:06.299 --> 00:31:09.420
Of the kind that Vicky used sort of as well.

452
00:31:09.480 --> 00:31:17.039
And Hartnell says, oh, you know, we have to teach you to speak proper English, you know, don't use that appalling mongrel dialect.

453
00:31:17.099 --> 00:31:17.880
That's not him.

454
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:19.019
But do you know what I mean?

455
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:21.660
He critiques her speech.

456
00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:27.059
And it is that thing too, where that's the 1st hint that the doctor's turning conservative.

457
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:29.339
So the doctor liked Vicky.

458
00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:30.779
The doctor burns down Rome.

459
00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:32.099
The doctor has a happy time.

460
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:32.880
Do you know what I mean?

461
00:31:32.940 --> 00:31:35.759
The doctor can't tolerate you cutting your G's.

462
00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:36.480
Yeah, that's right.

463
00:31:36.539 --> 00:31:42.420
But now he's now he's suddenly your primary school teacher, you know, he'll tell you off for having a working class accent.

464
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:59.220
But he also adopts this girl and he does adopt it because not only was, we mentioned Jackie Lane, not only was she, he says that she reminds him of her granddaughter, that he's lost in extraordinary circumstances, because he locked the bloody door and didn't let her back in.

465
00:31:59.279 --> 00:32:01.920
I think there's a whole lot of Mia Cooper in this.

466
00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:13.980
I think that you can actually see this as the doctor having, ever since that moment, just being trying to make it up to whoever his whomever is with and to whoever blunders into the Tartars who had auditioned to play, Susan.

467
00:32:14.039 --> 00:32:17.940
Well, this is the thing, you'd audition to play, McLane did audition.

468
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:23.400
John Wiles had worked with her previously and she was apparently really good and quite respected as a young actor.

469
00:32:23.460 --> 00:32:24.720
I don't think it's her fault.

470
00:32:24.779 --> 00:32:25.799
I'm going to jump on this.

471
00:32:25.859 --> 00:32:28.079
Yeah, that she said so.

472
00:32:28.140 --> 00:32:30.059
The accent is not good.

473
00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:32.160
Like, the accent is not good right now.

474
00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:33.299
Do you know who cuts that?

475
00:32:33.359 --> 00:32:35.160
Do you know who actually ordered that?

476
00:32:35.220 --> 00:32:36.000
Jared Savoury?

477
00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:48.180
Jared Savoury, who recently appointed head of series and serials, who was getting letters each week from Billy going over John Well's head saying, this is happening and it's atrocious and appalling.

478
00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:57.480
Savoury started taking an interest in the program because he was responding to it, and here's the reason that, as we're going to see later on the season, that Bill is still in the show.

479
00:32:59.339 --> 00:33:03.299
Yeah, it's actually pretty much Bill won that round, but not for long, sadly.

480
00:33:03.420 --> 00:33:05.640
Yeah, it's a bit of a pyrhic victory, isn't it?

481
00:33:05.700 --> 00:33:09.839
And whiles it really does deal, like the fatal blow, I think.

482
00:33:09.900 --> 00:33:15.900
He's, I mean, he's completely sidelined Billy in in the massacre.

483
00:33:15.960 --> 00:33:18.240
The Arc is his last one, isn't it?

484
00:33:18.299 --> 00:33:18.779
John?

485
00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:19.920
No, no, it's not his last one.

486
00:33:19.980 --> 00:33:26.279
He sticks around for a bit longer and Billy gets Billy gets a lot more of a role in the art, but it is up to Stephen to make the speeches.

487
00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:27.660
Yeah, true.

488
00:33:27.660 --> 00:33:33.720
And also, you know, it was around the time of the myth makers that Billy was actually diagnosed with arteriosclerosis.

489
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:38.759
So by this time, it was known in the production office that this is why his memory was so bad.

490
00:33:38.819 --> 00:33:45.180
But he still gives great performances later on and we're going to talk next episode about gunfighters.

491
00:33:45.299 --> 00:33:48.240
And he's good enough. savages.

492
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:50.579
Oh, savages, isn't that?

493
00:33:50.700 --> 00:33:51.839
Yeah, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

494
00:33:51.839 --> 00:33:52.559
Sideline.

495
00:33:52.619 --> 00:33:54.539
And so the arc.

496
00:33:54.599 --> 00:33:55.559
Are we talking about the...

497
00:33:55.619 --> 00:33:56.519
We're talking about the ark.

498
00:33:57.059 --> 00:34:00.059
They arrive, I think this is yours, isn't it?

499
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:01.440
It's a big spaceshippy thing.

500
00:34:01.500 --> 00:34:02.460
It is.

501
00:34:02.460 --> 00:34:03.420
It is.

502
00:34:03.480 --> 00:34:06.240
I've just been riveted by the 2 of you.

503
00:34:06.299 --> 00:34:08.639
I still want to spend Daddy and Daddy are fighting.

504
00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:12.360
Can I spend another 15 minutes talking about how much I hate the massacre?

505
00:34:12.420 --> 00:34:12.659
No.

506
00:34:12.780 --> 00:34:13.199
Okay.

507
00:34:13.199 --> 00:34:26.219
So, yeah, we have we have the arc, which, again, going back to something I was saying about earlier stories, it's a story about one central concept, and it's a story around this concept, which would have been revolutionary at the time.

508
00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:33.659
Richard, you alluded earlier in Dalek's master plan to the fact that viewers would have no idea when the story would end.

509
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:38.639
So, you know, you get to the end of part 2 of the arc and you're like, oh, that was a quick one, but they sorted that out quick.

510
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.820
And, oh my god, they've gone 700 years in the future and the statue is finished.

511
00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:51.059
It is, it is a powerful cliffhanger and that's sort of the central, the central idea is, you know, seeing the death of the earth and then seeing what happens to humanity.

512
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:55.559
But it's, it is very, very problematically done.

513
00:34:55.619 --> 00:35:00.599
On one level, it's a very, it's a very interesting science fiction idea.

514
00:35:00.659 --> 00:35:04.980
It, um...

515
00:35:04.980 --> 00:35:06.059
Richard Challenge.

516
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:07.559
Well, it's not a new idea.

517
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:12.539
It's not a new idea to call us things to come and it's, you know, it's HG Wells, obviously.

518
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:14.699
It's all Stapleton, actually.

519
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:16.800
Did you ever read him when you were a kid?

520
00:35:16.920 --> 00:35:19.800
No, but I've heard C.S. Lewis, my immortal enemy.

521
00:35:19.860 --> 00:35:21.360
I was a big fan of all I was saying.

522
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:27.599
Honest Stapleton wrote the things about the end of the end of the end of time, books are serious, and I think the last and 1st men.

523
00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:31.739
Um, it's, they're kind of like um, Doc Smith.

524
00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.920
They were, you know, like teenage fiction stuff.

525
00:35:34.980 --> 00:35:35.940
Oh, gosh, they were terrible.

526
00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:37.679
Well, same sort of thing they're worth looking at.

527
00:35:37.739 --> 00:35:39.539
But it's pretty much this story.

528
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:41.579
Far, far, far future.

529
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:49.320
Because it is super far future. well outside where we've been segmented. of time. and all of Nero and all of them. that we've just seen.

530
00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:50.519
Everything.

531
00:35:50.579 --> 00:35:53.880
In fact, everything in Doctor Who so far has been the 1st segment of time.

532
00:35:53.940 --> 00:35:58.619
Yeah, so this is except for the Daleks, which happens a 1000000 years in the future.

533
00:35:58.679 --> 00:35:59.940
Oh, yeah, apparently.

534
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:01.980
That's one. segment of time.

535
00:36:02.099 --> 00:36:06.960
This is, can we say, this is beautifully directed by the one off Michael Imerson.

536
00:36:07.019 --> 00:36:09.239
That 1st episode is cinematic.

537
00:36:09.300 --> 00:36:15.119
See, I would love to talk about parts one and 2 and say lovely things and then parts 3 and 4 and just...

538
00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:16.800
Okay, let's start with parts one and two.

539
00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:17.460
Absolutely.

540
00:36:17.519 --> 00:36:18.840
It's things to come on.

541
00:36:18.900 --> 00:36:30.719
And it's possibly that the 1st time that in a science fiction story, Doctor Who is directly copying something else, because it was all the other time.

542
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:34.860
In terms of design, certainly earlier on, it's taken ideas.

543
00:36:34.980 --> 00:36:42.480
But yeah, as you were saying, Richard, it's the 1st time it's kind of taking the plot from other things and doing it in a Doctor Who kind of way.

544
00:36:42.539 --> 00:36:53.099
And what I find very interesting about it is Stephen's big speech, um, when he's on trial for, you know, because they brought Dodo's cold on board.

545
00:36:53.099 --> 00:36:59.099
And, uh, yeah, I don't think that's a great idea to introduce a character, her 1st full story, and she almost commits into that genocide.

546
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:05.579
Can we just say, the doctor then suggests, oh, maybe we've just spread diseases all through space and time.

547
00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:09.420
In every place we visited, ever since the show began.

548
00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.000
And so not everything, not save everyone.

549
00:37:12.059 --> 00:37:15.000
It's too terrible to think about. been infecting people.

550
00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:17.400
Let's not worry about it.

551
00:37:17.460 --> 00:37:27.360
Yeah, and he has that beautiful speech where, you know, the humans are saying, oh, so advanced, so marvellous, so there's always so that and Steven turns around and says, yeah, but you're still bigoted, terrible people.

552
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:33.119
You know, you are still afraid of anything unlike you, which starts to introduce the tone that's really problematic.

553
00:37:33.179 --> 00:37:34.679
Everyone in the ship is white.

554
00:37:34.739 --> 00:37:38.099
Yeah, they are. except the monoids.

555
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:39.000
So the monoids.

556
00:37:39.300 --> 00:37:46.500
Can we just say for those of you at home who have, you know, hobbies and full, rich and satisfying lives and haven't seen the ark as a result?

557
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:47.460
there's no one, is there?

558
00:37:47.940 --> 00:37:53.880
And so they're sort of people and they have sort of waddly legs and dark skin and the people.

559
00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:55.019
They have web legs in their mouths.

560
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:56.460
And I don't mean web toes.

561
00:37:56.460 --> 00:37:58.380
No web legs. webbing between their legs.

562
00:37:58.500 --> 00:37:59.579
Yeah, they are.

563
00:37:59.699 --> 00:38:09.059
John Mandeville's travels, which are 18th century, or Baron Mulkausen's stories, which you'd know from the Terry Gilliam film.

564
00:38:09.119 --> 00:38:17.460
They're actually, then, yeah, they're drawn straight from, actually going to hold them up these up for the listener at home because it's the joy of audio.

565
00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:18.900
But here we go.

566
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:21.239
I'm just going to show the boys here and we'll put this up on site.

567
00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:28.320
But these are the kind of drawings that are around in the OT century of creatures with, you know, a ping-pong ball in their mouth and a beetle.

568
00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:28.800
Yeah, yeah.

569
00:38:28.860 --> 00:38:30.659
And you get that, like, you do get that stuff.

570
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:32.340
Like even there's a...

571
00:38:32.340 --> 00:38:36.239
Where is it in Shakespeare?

572
00:38:36.300 --> 00:38:41.280
In Shakespeare, you know, the anthropophagan man whose heads do grow beneath their shoulders or between their shoulders?

573
00:38:41.699 --> 00:38:42.420
Which is from the same thing.

574
00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:48.239
That idea, you know, that idea that when you when you travel, Caliban's a bit like that.

575
00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:49.320
Yeah, yeah, all that sort of stuff.

576
00:38:49.380 --> 00:38:53.639
But, I mean, basically the idea is they're dark skinned servants.

577
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:55.920
And they come...

578
00:38:55.980 --> 00:38:57.300
They're all yak skin.

579
00:38:57.360 --> 00:38:58.139
They're all yak here.

580
00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.699
Some of them are blocked.

581
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.019
They're in beta wigs.

582
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:16.320
And so they do like hilariously bad sign language. and they communicate with sign language and we are very kind to them and you know, they're allowed to kind of, you know, carry our books when we put people on trial and all of that sort of thing.

583
00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:23.699
And, and, you know, they start to die of dodo's cold and they're a bit upset by that, but no one else is particularly phased.

584
00:39:23.820 --> 00:39:26.579
Yeah, they don't do anything until the humans are dying.

585
00:39:26.699 --> 00:39:29.579
Humans are dying that it's like a giant thing and we'll put everyone on trial.

586
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:34.320
And so it's already a little bit problematic.

587
00:39:34.380 --> 00:39:38.880
Well, no, look, vastly hugely hideously problematic and racist.

588
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:47.460
But I kind of wanted to at least say that there are things about the design and the production in those 1st 2 episodes, which are stunning.

589
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:51.239
I mean, the thing looks vastly better than it had before.

590
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.599
I mean, even the costumes, which were a bit silly.

591
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.300
Yeah, well, it's the Fenian League.

592
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:59.639
You've got to look again at...

593
00:39:59.699 --> 00:40:00.719
Yeah, you know, the undersea.

594
00:40:00.780 --> 00:40:04.559
They're going back in history with the costumes and forward in history.

595
00:40:04.619 --> 00:40:16.559
It is an interesting sort of melding to imply that it's this perfect society, except that they look like, you know, like a milk bar, like the, the, uh, the strips that hang down on the door.

596
00:40:16.619 --> 00:40:17.940
Yeah.

597
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:21.000
And they're all kind of wearing them no matter how old they are.

598
00:40:24.840 --> 00:40:27.420
But, you know, the sets are big.

599
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:28.619
They have an elephant.

600
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:31.440
They have an elephant and like real animals.

601
00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.139
You know, really nicely, it's on as a cutaway.

602
00:40:34.199 --> 00:40:35.760
So you assume it's just another...

603
00:40:35.820 --> 00:40:38.820
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. and that's around the crew, the cast actually reached out.

604
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:40.739
Jo actually goes...

605
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:42.539
So that thing's probably died of the fluid as well.

606
00:40:44.219 --> 00:40:45.599
Monarchy, yeah.

607
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:49.619
But then and that cliffhanger, I agree with you.

608
00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:50.579
That cliffhanger.

609
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:55.800
The great thing about it is we even get the sort of, like we get quite a way into the credits.

610
00:40:55.860 --> 00:41:00.000
We may even get the sort of next week, you know, whatever it is, the return.

611
00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:04.980
Like, we get quite a way into it before we see that the head of the statue is a more...

612
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:05.880
Yeah, yeah.

613
00:41:05.940 --> 00:41:09.179
So it is, and we linger on that and all of that.

614
00:41:09.239 --> 00:41:13.320
And that is really remarkable and really fantastic and something that they've never done before.

615
00:41:13.380 --> 00:41:15.599
Like we've never landed in the same place twice.

616
00:41:16.019 --> 00:41:18.360
Except for, except for Campbell.

617
00:41:18.420 --> 00:41:22.019
Yeah, but certainly not in a different time period, yeah.

618
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:31.860
This is one of those stories from our friends who were there for the 1st time round, along with Web Planet. seems to be, that are most remembered from the Hartmorp era.

619
00:41:31.920 --> 00:41:45.300
So, again, because this is a story that's supposed to be propelled by its visual qualities and content rather than its players, because honestly, that security kitchen really gets a workout, doesn't it?

620
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:46.559
Love the security kitchen.

621
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:47.699
We love the security kitchen.

622
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:48.659
And it's a good idea.

623
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:51.840
So, you know, the mono's obviously thinking, well, at least you can bake while you're prisoners.

624
00:41:51.900 --> 00:41:53.820
It's actually very modern getting prisoners too.

625
00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:56.880
No, but like the mono, it's and they don't have mouths, right?

626
00:41:56.940 --> 00:41:58.260
No, they have...

627
00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:00.239
Sunny bono amulets.

628
00:42:00.360 --> 00:42:02.400
They get served with food.

629
00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:04.139
They just kind of look at it.

630
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.119
You do actually see them like put it behind their neck.

631
00:42:09.179 --> 00:42:11.519
Oh, so they've got like a neck.

632
00:42:11.579 --> 00:42:14.940
I thought their mouths were in their chest, which is where their voice box things are.

633
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.199
Maybe it's also their chest.

634
00:42:16.260 --> 00:42:17.039
I thought it was their neck.

635
00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:21.059
I just sort of think they sort of waving around and add attention to this story.

636
00:42:21.119 --> 00:42:24.119
But where it all goes to hell, right?

637
00:42:24.179 --> 00:42:24.539
Yeah.

638
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:27.059
Where it all goes to hell is episode three.

639
00:42:27.119 --> 00:42:37.619
And so what's happened is we, we humans, we, lovely white people have been so kind to the monoids, you know, by patronising them and allowing them to speak.

640
00:42:37.679 --> 00:42:40.139
In fact we've allowed them, we've taught them to speak. loudest.

641
00:42:40.199 --> 00:42:45.599
Yeah, you know, we've let them carry our books and drive our things around and all that sort of thing.

642
00:42:45.659 --> 00:42:52.980
And then a flu dodo's flu has infected the humans and caused them to lose the will to live.

643
00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:56.400
Much like the massacre, actually, has...

644
00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.000
Moving on.

645
00:42:58.260 --> 00:43:02.039
And, um, build a cross channel total.

646
00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:04.139
I'll be back.

647
00:43:04.500 --> 00:43:13.500
And suddenly the monoids are in charge and they're not the benevolent overlords that the white people were.

648
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:24.840
They're in fact cruel and mean and they have numbers instead of names and they explain their plans to each other in loud voices and all of that sort of thing.

649
00:43:24.900 --> 00:43:27.000
And the whole thing just sort of goes to hell.

650
00:43:27.059 --> 00:43:29.760
It's really just terribly, terribly awful.

651
00:43:29.820 --> 00:43:34.559
And at a time, are you going to mention Rhodesia?

652
00:43:34.619 --> 00:43:40.320
I was going to mention, well, I wasn't even going to go to that because we've covered it before, but I was going to mention, you know, John Welles is an Afrikana.

653
00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:41.519
Yeah, yeah.

654
00:43:41.579 --> 00:43:44.340
I mean, I know. a white South African of that time.

655
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:45.960
I don't know what his own political views.

656
00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.239
Look, I'm prepared to... really racist.

657
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:59.760
I prepared to give the gentleman the benefit of the doubt simply because he's a man in theatre and a lot of people in theatre had more of a lateral kind of thinking, even in these unprocessed times.

658
00:43:59.820 --> 00:44:07.920
But, you know, that people make political thoughts and positions were much more black and white, I guess, in those days, as far as we can see from that.

659
00:44:07.980 --> 00:44:08.820
I saw what you did there.

660
00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:10.860
Yeah, but boomtish.

661
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:17.519
But the, um, but whiles, look, I, okay, my personal take on this, this is the one that Wiles wanted to make.

662
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:18.900
This is the one that he came in.

663
00:44:18.960 --> 00:44:21.059
Yeah, this is his vision of Doctor Who.

664
00:44:21.179 --> 00:44:23.820
It was the very story he wanted to do, which is super duper.

665
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:29.340
It's a lovely idea because again, it's classic trope, I believe, is the word, of science fiction.

666
00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:35.219
It's the super duper art that's bigger than anything you can possibly film and given it to someone a one off.

667
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.440
I think this is an interesting story in a lot of times.

668
00:44:37.500 --> 00:44:38.699
A lot of reasons.

669
00:44:38.760 --> 00:44:42.300
The director of this story, Michael Emerson, was giving his marching orders.

670
00:44:42.360 --> 00:44:43.860
You're not just going off this story.

671
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:46.320
You'll never be hired again by the BBC.

672
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:50.340
And then I think the end of one of episode one or 2 while he was shooting it.

673
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:57.000
So the fact that he carried on might well indicate why episodes 2 and 3 and 4 is a pretty dull because the man...

674
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.139
I think they're badly directed.

675
00:44:58.199 --> 00:44:59.880
I think it's all down the script.

676
00:44:59.940 --> 00:45:01.320
I think it's all down to the...

677
00:45:01.380 --> 00:45:15.599
So what happens is that the moment that these black people are in control and we're talking at a time where, as you said before, you know, England's former colonies in Africa, being given kind of self-rule.

678
00:45:15.659 --> 00:45:19.380
And so what happens here, the black people are stupid.

679
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:25.139
They explain their plans loudly to each other and tip off the white people and they fight one another.

680
00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:26.099
Do you know what I mean?

681
00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:28.619
They can't be trusted not to fight among themselves.

682
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:35.760
And, you know, they're just sort of stupid and primitive and the whole thing is just absolutely, absolutely monstrous and terrible.

683
00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:43.260
The only redeeming feature of episodes 3 and 4 is the fact that there are a few sins have lost their physical shape in a galaxy accident.

684
00:45:44.579 --> 00:45:46.619
Fantastic, isn't it?

685
00:45:46.619 --> 00:45:55.019
The thing is, even the refusian element is incredibly problematic because, um, Mentos, that's the leader.

686
00:45:55.079 --> 00:45:56.460
Mentos.

687
00:45:56.460 --> 00:45:58.980
He's the fresh AK.

688
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.900
People, he all day sucker.

689
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:05.340
Well, he says we're going to this planet called Refuses 2.

690
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:18.360
It has similar earthlike properties, and the idea that it will take 700 years to get there, unlike later Doctor Who, this is an era of Doctor Who saying that earthlike planets are few and far between, which is what we're seeing now when we're looking out into the universe.

691
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:25.739
But he, um, but not fully plays of the, of the, in either the, the, the, the, the, No, none of them are particularly interesting.

692
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:28.019
Yeah, but they're not poorly played.

693
00:46:28.079 --> 00:46:29.940
No, no, and there are some interesting moments.

694
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.440
And they're final shared.

695
00:46:31.500 --> 00:46:35.340
Again, Michael Sheard makes his 1st of six, something. appearances.

696
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:37.260
God, I'm such a nerd.

697
00:46:37.320 --> 00:46:38.699
It's true.

698
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:41.760
But no, I really think that there are things about this.

699
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:44.579
The fact that it was visually astounding at the time.

700
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:46.079
It got huge coverage here.

701
00:46:46.139 --> 00:46:51.719
I've actually got newspapers from the time I found secondhand and saved giving this huge coverage.

702
00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:57.719
It got a big promotion by the ABC and Australian when it was shown, big promotion, promotion by the BBC.

703
00:46:57.780 --> 00:46:59.940
Visually, it was the show.

704
00:46:59.940 --> 00:47:04.920
And the audience figures reflected that. appreciation figures reflected that.

705
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:14.519
And as I say, from fans like my friend Robert living in WA now, he says, this is this and the web of fear and the web plan are the only ones he remembers as a seven-year-old child watching.

706
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:26.280
So when Mentos says that, you know, we're going to this planet refuses to, Stephen says, well, it's either Stephen or Dodo, who says, oh, well, aren't there people living there?

707
00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:28.860
And it's just pretty much, oh, we'll deal with that when we get there.

708
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:35.340
Which in a colonial sense is. shoot them with our guns until they give us their land.

709
00:47:35.400 --> 00:47:39.840
And, you know, we're from Australia, we'd see how that turns out.

710
00:47:39.900 --> 00:47:41.219
Yeah, yeah.

711
00:47:41.219 --> 00:47:41.699
You know?

712
00:47:41.760 --> 00:47:43.860
But it's all okay.

713
00:47:43.920 --> 00:47:47.699
And that whole problem is voted because the refusians are invisible, you know?

714
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:49.920
In fact, we're quite happy for you to come in.

715
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:54.659
It's the colonial dream of a native that says, oh, you're so wonderful.

716
00:47:54.719 --> 00:47:57.539
Why don't you come live in these houses we've already built for?

717
00:47:57.599 --> 00:48:00.659
They did. actually did my car. castle for them.

718
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:02.400
The refusions as well.

719
00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:05.820
Because they're sort of invisible, godlike entities and stuff.

720
00:48:05.880 --> 00:48:07.139
They certainly speak in a god way.

721
00:48:07.199 --> 00:48:10.980
Yeah, yeah. the ones who kind of end up as the moral centre of the story.

722
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:13.380
Who tells them that they have to live together?

723
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.000
It's the refusing...

724
00:48:15.059 --> 00:48:16.619
Yeah, you see, they're the ones who enforce.

725
00:48:16.679 --> 00:48:18.719
And so...

726
00:48:18.719 --> 00:48:19.860
Billy during all of this?

727
00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:20.280
Yeah.

728
00:48:20.340 --> 00:48:21.960
Oh, you know, facting about.

729
00:48:23.159 --> 00:48:26.639
He doesn't, I think he is involved in the negotiations.

730
00:48:26.699 --> 00:48:27.659
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

731
00:48:27.719 --> 00:48:31.019
But it is the refusians who kind of deliver the moral.

732
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:34.440
And so they say you have to learn to live together and all of that sort of thing.

733
00:48:34.500 --> 00:48:39.840
And you sort of think, oh, maybe this is kind of an attempt to make it into a non-racist thing.

734
00:48:39.900 --> 00:48:43.139
But it just doesn't really ring true.

735
00:48:43.139 --> 00:48:50.159
And it's come after such horrendous nonsense for the last couple of episodes that you just can't buy it.

736
00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:51.000
Do you know what I mean?

737
00:48:51.059 --> 00:48:54.360
Maybe, maybe the monoid should just learn their place.

738
00:48:54.420 --> 00:48:55.679
Yeah, I mean...

739
00:48:55.739 --> 00:48:56.940
It's a while before we get to it.

740
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:01.679
But it's a bit like the end of the 2 doctors where the doctor says, I think we're going to be vegetarians from now on.

741
00:49:01.739 --> 00:49:08.280
Like, that does not make up for the past 135 minutes of horrible Texas chainsaw massacre kind of stuff.

742
00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:10.380
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

743
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:11.099
No, that's it.

744
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:12.719
And that's precisely.

745
00:49:12.780 --> 00:49:18.179
They fig leaf, the kind of racism, but essentially this is a pretty horrendous racist parable.

746
00:49:18.300 --> 00:49:21.420
It's a shame because the plot on paper is quite interesting.

747
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:23.340
Yeah, the high concept is great.

748
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:24.539
The design is great.

749
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:25.619
I think it's really well directed.

750
00:49:25.679 --> 00:49:28.500
The whole thing looks spectacular, but it's just horrendous.

751
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.739
I think it could have been saved if when the Monoids take over.

752
00:49:31.800 --> 00:49:34.320
They are actually very good leaders.

753
00:49:34.380 --> 00:49:49.320
Like if they were very good leaders and they were very intelligent, that would have been turning the whole colonialism, nation seeking independence thing on its head because when the nations were seeking independence, lots of people were saying, oh, well, they won't be able, you know, they won't be able to run their own country.

754
00:49:49.440 --> 00:49:50.039
They need us.

755
00:49:50.099 --> 00:50:03.480
If we had have seen the monoids actually being fairer than the humans, rather than being out and out villains, and it had been a thing of, you know, okay, you're being very fair to them, but they are still your subjects and your prisoners, you must learn to be equal.

756
00:50:03.539 --> 00:50:04.440
Yeah.

757
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:05.880
That would have said that.

758
00:50:05.940 --> 00:50:09.059
No, I don't think that is...

759
00:50:09.059 --> 00:50:13.079
Milly is not angered by the monoid's oppression in episodes one and two.

760
00:50:13.139 --> 00:50:16.019
But he's very, yeah, very...

761
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:24.300
We take it as red that they're not of a sophisticated human level of intelligence, but they don't speak that they're very robotic in their movement.

762
00:50:24.360 --> 00:50:26.519
We take it that they're only semi-centuent.

763
00:50:26.639 --> 00:50:35.159
This is why I actually got to argue, since you've had you go on the massacre, but it's not really a, it's a later reading that this is racist, because these are lizards.

764
00:50:35.219 --> 00:50:35.880
They're not people.

765
00:50:35.940 --> 00:50:41.940
So you can actually talk about a special form of racism, but I don't think it's a stand in for humanity.

766
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:43.739
It certainly wasn't seen that way at the time.

767
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:46.739
Okay, yes, you're saying that they were far more unenlightened times.

768
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:47.699
Well, maybe they weren't.

769
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:49.139
Maybe they weren't.

770
00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:52.679
Maybe people were actually a lot more aware of this because the Commonwealth was splitting up.

771
00:50:52.739 --> 00:50:55.679
I think people were very aware at the time of race.

772
00:50:55.800 --> 00:50:57.900
That's why I think it's a consciously racist hero.

773
00:50:57.900 --> 00:50:58.860
I don't think it is.

774
00:50:58.920 --> 00:51:02.280
I think this is lizard guys from the 18th century in Beatle wigs.

775
00:51:02.340 --> 00:51:04.500
Stop around being me.

776
00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:08.699
Well, then servants, black, dark skinned servants. black and white, television.

777
00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:09.179
They're black.

778
00:51:09.239 --> 00:51:11.280
That's not enough to make it.

779
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:13.199
It really is.

780
00:51:13.260 --> 00:51:15.539
I don't I think it is racist.

781
00:51:15.599 --> 00:51:17.280
I do not think it is actively racist.

782
00:51:17.340 --> 00:51:20.820
I think it's racist in the same way as early Warner Brothers and Disney cartoons.

783
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:22.980
They're really racist.

784
00:51:23.039 --> 00:51:23.400
Yes.

785
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:24.840
That's a bad thing.

786
00:51:24.900 --> 00:51:26.280
Listen, listen, listen.

787
00:51:26.340 --> 00:51:31.679
At the time, they were not setting out to be to be racial vilification.

788
00:51:31.739 --> 00:51:35.340
They were setting out to be amusing and missing and not getting it right.

789
00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:48.239
But as Whoopi Goldberg says, because the Looney Tunes DVDs come with an intro, come with an intro by Whoopi Goldberg saying, you know, I loved Looney Tunes as a kid, and what you're about to see, some of these things, they're racist.

790
00:51:48.300 --> 00:51:50.519
They were wrong then, they are wrong now.

791
00:51:50.579 --> 00:51:52.079
But if we deny it happened.

792
00:51:52.139 --> 00:51:57.000
If we deny that this was a form of entertainment, that's as bad as saying it never happened.

793
00:51:57.059 --> 00:52:05.219
And that's why, in a way, this is an important Doctor Who story, because no Doctor Who story after this is as problematic in terms of race.

794
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:06.840
Except for the next one, obviously.

795
00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:10.440
Well.

796
00:52:10.860 --> 00:52:11.280
Yeah, okay.

797
00:52:11.340 --> 00:52:12.480
It's not quite as problematic.

798
00:52:12.539 --> 00:52:15.719
It's one scene in that that's problematic.

799
00:52:16.079 --> 00:52:18.480
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

800
00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:19.619
The whole we'll get there.

801
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:21.780
We'll get there. more than that.

802
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:25.079
The key word is celestial.

803
00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:47.400
Yeah, I actually genuinely think that this is a story that the writer is in control of, and that the writer is deliberately choosing to say that, um, that the people to whom we are giving independence in Africa are unable to govern themselves, and that it's very...

804
00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:49.019
But that's what the story seems to be.

805
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:50.880
But we don't necessarily take the lyrics to this point.

806
00:52:50.940 --> 00:52:57.119
I'm of the perspective that, yeah, we, somewhere along the line, I think it becomes that, whether it starts out...

807
00:52:57.179 --> 00:52:59.880
Yeah, maybe it doesn't come from the weather or whether it is designed like that.

808
00:52:59.940 --> 00:53:00.300
Who knows?

809
00:53:00.360 --> 00:53:01.980
The designer is Barry Newbury.

810
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:04.559
I don't mean the designer.

811
00:53:04.619 --> 00:53:05.880
I mean the writer.

812
00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:07.199
Ericsson.

813
00:53:07.260 --> 00:53:15.719
Like, I'm not saying that Ericsson, I don't know who's responsible for it, but the story that we have essentially has that as a message.

814
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:17.940
Right.

815
00:53:18.059 --> 00:53:21.000
Well, but otherwise it was terrific.

816
00:53:21.059 --> 00:53:22.199
That's great.

817
00:53:22.260 --> 00:53:22.860
Yep.

818
00:53:22.920 --> 00:53:24.539
So I think I think we can boil that down too.

819
00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:25.679
It's a great concept.

820
00:53:25.739 --> 00:53:30.000
I'd like to know what other people, if any, if anyone is listening to this.

821
00:53:30.059 --> 00:53:31.619
What you think yourself.

822
00:53:31.679 --> 00:53:37.320
If you could just leave a comment on the Facebook page. or on the website. on the website.

823
00:53:37.380 --> 00:53:41.760
Yeah, or the website even better because, you know, some of our people have already been leaving.

824
00:53:41.820 --> 00:53:43.679
Greg's left great comments just on what they think.

825
00:53:43.739 --> 00:53:44.639
Do you think it's racist?

826
00:53:44.699 --> 00:53:49.260
I, I, sort of, I sent my piece and you certainly hope from the rest of us.

827
00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:57.360
Yeah, we seem to be sort of coming from 3 different perspectives of not racist, entirely racist. a little bit racist.

828
00:53:57.420 --> 00:53:58.920
I don't believe it's intentionally signite.

829
00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:01.199
Yeah, so I think we can sort of boil that down too.

830
00:54:01.260 --> 00:54:05.579
It's a great concept, but with very, very questionable execution.

831
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:12.059
And speaking of questionable execution, we're off into a land of dreams and fantasy.

832
00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:16.619
Is this the one where I get to talk for 15 minutes about how much I hate the massacre again?

833
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:17.880
No.

834
00:54:17.940 --> 00:54:18.659
Oh, okay.

835
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:20.280
That is my fantasy though.

836
00:54:20.340 --> 00:54:22.380
It's the celestial toy maker.

837
00:54:28.440 --> 00:54:31.500
No, those chimes in the willow trees started to go off now.

838
00:54:31.559 --> 00:54:33.480
This one's been given to me because I'm a lucky one.

839
00:54:34.139 --> 00:54:38.760
This is another one of those things that on paper should have been extraordinary.

840
00:54:38.820 --> 00:54:56.940
It does and says things about, you know, the doctor facing a godlike villain, the ultimate power, um, gods and monsters thing of, you know, being taken out into a form of reality that's beyond the reality of the universe that we know, we're going through Brian Green's black hole.

841
00:54:57.000 --> 00:55:02.519
He wasn't even around in those days, but black holes had actually only, hang on, they hadn't even been promulgated yet.

842
00:55:02.579 --> 00:55:05.880
Black holes were only a year old when they made the 3 doctors.

843
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.619
That's how early we are.

844
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:09.239
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

845
00:55:09.300 --> 00:55:10.619
It was a very new idea.

846
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:11.699
7172.

847
00:55:11.880 --> 00:55:14.039
And it turns out, doctor who got it totally right.

848
00:55:14.099 --> 00:55:15.360
Spoiler alert for...

849
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:15.539
Really?

850
00:55:15.539 --> 00:55:16.679
There's like...

851
00:55:16.739 --> 00:55:19.199
An ancient time lord with a sort of magical realm.

852
00:55:19.260 --> 00:55:20.219
Stop it.

853
00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:22.440
Do you know Do you know that there isn't?

854
00:55:22.500 --> 00:55:23.280
You weren't there.

855
00:55:23.340 --> 00:55:24.300
You don't know.

856
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:25.559
It's right.

857
00:55:25.619 --> 00:55:28.500
Sorry, tuna. in the room with us.

858
00:55:28.980 --> 00:55:32.039
Ah, this should have been amazing.

859
00:55:32.099 --> 00:55:42.840
And you can see why fans like Gary Russell and the other guys were saying that, you know, in Germany, in the memory of, oh, Nathan, do you actually have a copy of Peter Haning's celebration?

860
00:55:42.900 --> 00:55:53.519
It just so happens I do. with you at this very moment and we're going to, we're going to relate this to the gentle listener because I think you've got to be reminded of just what the received idea of this was.

861
00:55:53.820 --> 00:56:17.460
It's the doctor meeting, finally, his equal in a univer- in a part of the world that doesn't belong in space and time, as we know it, that there are archetypes of, of, um, not just villains, but of, of characters, that we only realise halfway through the narration were once people, but have been denuded to be mere automatons and mere dolls.

862
00:56:17.519 --> 00:56:19.260
There's some really dark ideas in this.

863
00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.980
And yet, it's really terrible.

864
00:56:23.099 --> 00:56:25.260
It never quite pulls them off.

865
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:26.519
You're so sweet, Brendan.

866
00:56:26.579 --> 00:56:28.260
It's awful from beginning to end.

867
00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:29.940
Like we were discussing earlier.

868
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.699
My function of this podcast is to go, but everything's wonderful.

869
00:56:32.760 --> 00:56:33.900
You think something.

870
00:56:33.960 --> 00:56:35.340
So I'm not going to read...

871
00:56:35.340 --> 00:56:38.699
I threw my hands above my head there, dear listener, like Nadia comedy.

872
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:41.880
So I have Doctor Who Celebration by Peter Haning.

873
00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:46.500
And this is a hugely important document because it's the 20th anniversary thing.

874
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:47.699
So it's 1983.

875
00:56:47.820 --> 00:56:50.639
It's before very much a very good year, listener.

876
00:56:50.699 --> 00:56:52.199
Brendan's 1st viewing.

877
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:52.800
Really?

878
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:54.480
That was our 1st view on your friend.

879
00:56:54.539 --> 00:56:58.199
Well, it was his, no, it was his moment, if you remember when we were born, yeah.

880
00:56:58.260 --> 00:57:00.119
So 1983.

881
00:57:00.300 --> 00:57:06.000
And had any had there been any DVD releases?

882
00:57:06.059 --> 00:57:07.800
Have there been any VHS?

883
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:11.940
And then came out that time on VHS and it cost the equivalent of $80.

884
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.719
Yeah, so you just couldn't watch old...

885
00:57:15.780 --> 00:57:22.199
No, if you lived in Australia, you were very lucky because they were stripping it on the ABC and we got to see things over and over again.

886
00:57:22.260 --> 00:57:22.860
Yes.

887
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:26.460
But essentially, you could never watch old Doctor Who.

888
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:31.980
And so this was most people's only source for, you know, what the old stories had been like.

889
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:35.099
And this one raves about celestial toymaker.

890
00:57:35.159 --> 00:57:39.960
I'm going to read one sentence because reading things out on the podcast that are killing momentum stone dead.

891
00:57:40.019 --> 00:57:41.699
Maybe I can add an echo to you.

892
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:42.900
I wouldn't do that.

893
00:57:42.960 --> 00:57:52.440
Few drama productions on television have ever achieved the unique atmosphere present in the 4 episodes of the celestial toy.

894
00:57:52.500 --> 00:57:58.739
What does this say about the character of the Toymaker himself, though, because he's seen as being extraordinary.

895
00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:00.119
I've got a bit to say about him.

896
00:58:00.179 --> 00:58:05.280
He's really sax Romas, again, Fu Manchu, he's being the merciless. racist and celestial.

897
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:07.619
Oh, Celestial was a pass.

898
00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:08.880
Thank you to Sandafar.

899
00:58:08.940 --> 00:58:14.699
Well, it's actually a 19th century thing for Chinese and... drug addled Chinese person.

900
00:58:14.760 --> 00:58:15.599
Yeah, it does.

901
00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:18.659
He, Chang in...

902
00:58:18.659 --> 00:58:20.820
When Chang calls himself the Celestial Chang.

903
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:28.739
And apparently in Deadwood, Celestial gets used as a term of abuse, but I've never seen Deadwood, so God knows.

904
00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:30.780
Is Inis Lloyd involved in this one?

905
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:34.739
Inis Lloyd and Jerry Davis are starting to come around.

906
00:58:34.860 --> 00:58:36.960
This is during the handover.

907
00:58:37.019 --> 00:58:46.199
So this is at the point where we're at a weird transition because of course the doctor disappears for half of this story. more than half of this story.

908
00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:51.539
And that was as a result of John Welles still trying to get rid of Hartnell.

909
00:58:51.539 --> 00:58:57.059
And the original idea for changing the actor, which was vetoed by Gerald Savoy.

910
00:58:57.119 --> 00:58:57.719
Savoury.

911
00:58:57.719 --> 00:58:58.199
Savoury.

912
00:58:58.260 --> 00:58:58.920
I do beg your pardon.

913
00:58:59.639 --> 00:59:09.539
Vetoed by Gerald Sabre, it was that the toy maker would make the doctor disappear and then when he came back, he would be a new actor. together, but the same persona.

914
00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:13.260
So he would have the same look. but be a different actor.

915
00:59:13.320 --> 00:59:15.539
And that was that was vetoed.

916
00:59:15.539 --> 00:59:27.420
And I think that was actually the straw that broke the camel back for whiles, who just kind of turned around and said, look, you want me to make this show, but I cannot make this show because the lead actor is impossible for me to work with.

917
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:28.800
Therefore, I will not make the show.

918
00:59:28.860 --> 00:59:29.280
I will quit.

919
00:59:29.340 --> 00:59:30.659
Yeah, Billy won that round.

920
00:59:30.659 --> 00:59:38.940
And of course, Billy was, but it's also because in this story, Gerald Savoury himself had immediate involvement in it.

921
00:59:39.000 --> 00:59:39.840
Where this comes from.

922
00:59:39.900 --> 00:59:44.280
Can we just briefly say the TARDIS appears in something that is like the land of fiction.

923
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:46.619
Only crummy.

924
00:59:46.679 --> 00:59:53.760
The doctor, the doctor, suddenly turns somewhat invisible. and and all the rest returns some way.

925
00:59:53.820 --> 01:00:02.579
So the doctor has to play Towers of Hanoi with Michael Goff and he's invisible and then inaudible and it's like some guy's hand moving the things.

926
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:12.300
So the companions have to step out of the TARDIS and they find themselves in the land in a land of one-to-one scale toys, a nice little thing of planet of giants.

927
01:00:12.360 --> 01:00:16.380
Again, you think that the TARDIS can take on the scale of whatever universe is.

928
01:00:16.500 --> 01:00:20.460
There's visually, there's kind of really exciting things that are happening here.

929
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:24.300
The idea of these, and the design is actually gorgeous for a show with no budget.

930
01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:26.460
The tin robots are massive.

931
01:00:26.460 --> 01:00:30.900
The TV sets in the chest, especially in the colour photos that you can see of this.

932
01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:32.699
They're really gorgeous looking.

933
01:00:32.760 --> 01:00:39.179
And Michael Goff, of course, has come straight from the Avengers where he was the inventor of the cybernauts.

934
01:00:39.239 --> 01:00:44.760
Absolutely, the precursors to Doctor Who's cybermen a year later.

935
01:00:44.820 --> 01:00:46.139
Really nicely done.

936
01:00:46.199 --> 01:01:03.840
Now, This is actually the story that on paper was supposed to propel the idea of Doctor Who as an international saleable commodity online with the Avengers, and this story itself is the story that is supposed to mime or mimic what the Avengers is doing.

937
01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:09.239
They did it beautifully with the kind of the fantasy in reality, the house that Jack built.

938
01:01:09.300 --> 01:01:12.539
Thank you, which in itself actually kind of references the TARDIS.

939
01:01:12.599 --> 01:01:19.380
It's an M appeal story where a house is actually built just to menace the chief protagonist in this case, Mrs. Peel.

940
01:01:19.440 --> 01:01:28.440
So the idea of this one was that it would be, um, that it would actually be something that would be, everyone would love and the Americans would want to watch and buy.

941
01:01:28.500 --> 01:01:36.480
Whereas it's really just 2 people running around playing really rubbish children's games with no narrative connection at all.

942
01:01:36.539 --> 01:01:41.579
It's extraordinary to watch it just how dull it is to actually have to sit through.

943
01:01:41.699 --> 01:01:43.440
And it is, there's no real peril.

944
01:01:43.500 --> 01:01:47.039
Like, or there's no sort of properly to, you know, will be burned or whatever.

945
01:01:47.039 --> 01:01:50.400
And, you know, it's got lines like, what have you done now, you clown you?

946
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:52.619
Well, clowns aren't even scary clowns.

947
01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:55.260
As Rod said at the time, because I've got my notebook here.

948
01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:59.159
I wish they would stop talking about the solutions and actually do them.

949
01:01:59.219 --> 01:02:03.599
And when they, when it occurs to them in the 1st 10 minutes of each episode, it's such a waste.

950
01:02:03.659 --> 01:02:04.679
You're so right.

951
01:02:04.739 --> 01:02:09.000
You know, this comes from absurdist theatre, which is very...

952
01:02:09.000 --> 01:02:11.639
Eugenie and Eska, the rhinoceros. good.

953
01:02:11.699 --> 01:02:13.199
You know, this is really nice.

954
01:02:13.260 --> 01:02:14.519
But on paper this was the same thing.

955
01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:28.619
This is also absurdist theatre, um, if you don't know, it is that is about the futility of the mundane and the everyday of life and juxtaposed with um, with fantasy with very dark notions of where we are.

956
01:02:28.679 --> 01:02:33.480
It also presages Joe Orton's work, because it's very much like this later.

957
01:02:33.539 --> 01:02:38.159
And in fact, you've got dodo dressed as Joe Orton in the train driver's cap.

958
01:02:38.219 --> 01:02:42.659
Um, and, you know, Harold Pinter, of course, and people are watching.

959
01:02:42.659 --> 01:02:43.619
But those are good.

960
01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:45.960
Do you know what this is?

961
01:02:46.019 --> 01:02:48.480
You can actually say existentialism without blanching.

962
01:02:49.260 --> 01:02:51.960
This idea is existentialist theatre.

963
01:02:52.019 --> 01:02:56.460
But as you say, there's none of the production or the writing that holds that together.

964
01:02:56.579 --> 01:02:58.079
There's no threat.

965
01:02:58.139 --> 01:03:00.719
There's no, like, all we have to do is get the TARDIS.

966
01:03:00.780 --> 01:03:02.039
Everything's completely arbitrary.

967
01:03:02.099 --> 01:03:05.639
The threat is only explained to us in dialogue and we never see it.

968
01:03:05.699 --> 01:03:08.340
There are no actual characters anywhere.

969
01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:11.699
The games are deadly boring and protracted.

970
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:12.719
It really is.

971
01:03:12.780 --> 01:03:16.679
I mean, it may be my least favourite Doctor Who story. terrible.

972
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:21.960
The reason that exists is because it was all taken out, and that was by the head of series and serials.

973
01:03:22.019 --> 01:03:26.519
Gerald Savoury had written a play in the 30s called George and Margaret.

974
01:03:26.579 --> 01:03:29.940
The characters George and Mildred from that about the house and later their own show.

975
01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:31.019
Well, based on that.

976
01:03:31.079 --> 01:03:33.300
Shades of Samuel Beckett, maybe.

977
01:03:33.360 --> 01:03:37.260
The characters of George and Margaret never actually show up in this play.

978
01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:46.019
The other characters sitting around waiting for them and there's the drama of, you know, it's the existential loss of living in an urban environment, blah, blah. in Britain in the 1930s.

979
01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:53.280
It was still considered quite a literary piece and was very well known enough for the casual viewer to have actually known who these people were.

980
01:03:53.340 --> 01:04:00.599
The idea of this one was that George and Margaret are played by Carmen Silvera and...

981
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:01.320
Campbell Singer.

982
01:04:01.320 --> 01:04:02.699
Campbell Singer.

983
01:04:02.699 --> 01:04:03.480
And they're actually in this.

984
01:04:03.539 --> 01:04:06.599
So it's a kind of part two. what happens when you explore this.

985
01:04:06.780 --> 01:04:11.760
Really, interesting take literary values and put them into a reality.

986
01:04:11.820 --> 01:04:15.480
So the TARDIS does actually can actually fly into the land of fiction. know that now.

987
01:04:15.539 --> 01:04:27.599
And but Gerard Savoury, because he was siding with Billy on this and hearing that Wiles was corrupting the show, then thought, no, you're not having my characters, looked at the scripts and said, oh, actually, this note.

988
01:04:27.659 --> 01:04:31.500
So the reason why I was left is because of this story.

989
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:35.159
And the reason Billy is here was stayed on because of the story.

990
01:04:35.219 --> 01:04:39.539
And the reason it's pants is because of the politics going on at the time.

991
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:47.880
Because otherwise, explicitly, you know, Joey and Clara, the king and queen, Sergeant Rag and Mrs. Week, would have been the same character.

992
01:04:47.940 --> 01:04:50.460
They have been George and Margaret all the way true.

993
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:57.659
And then, you know, you've got that extra tension of, I believe at the time George and Margaret was actually being performed and it was very big in London.

994
01:04:57.719 --> 01:04:58.079
Oh, okay.

995
01:04:58.079 --> 01:05:07.619
And that was where Brian Hale's idea came from, you know, these characters never show up. wouldn't it be great at use to these characters, to which Donald Tosh said, oh, well, that's our boss.

996
01:05:07.679 --> 01:05:08.460
I'm sure he'll let us.

997
01:05:08.519 --> 01:05:08.940
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

998
01:05:08.940 --> 01:05:11.039
Well, he did it first.

999
01:05:11.099 --> 01:05:13.860
Yeah. until the scripts were written and then went, no, you can't have them.

1000
01:05:13.920 --> 01:05:18.119
And yeah, that takes a big part of the wind out of the sales.

1001
01:05:18.179 --> 01:05:27.900
You know, it would be like David Whittaker writing the crusade and then the sort of family trust of King Richard saying, no, you can't use King Richard.

1002
01:05:27.900 --> 01:05:32.340
You know, it's that kind of narrative.

1003
01:05:32.400 --> 01:05:33.599
He's been watching it.

1004
01:05:33.719 --> 01:05:35.039
Oh, it's really rough.

1005
01:05:35.099 --> 01:05:37.079
I mean, it really is so boring.

1006
01:05:37.139 --> 01:05:38.639
Michael Goff is cool.

1007
01:05:38.699 --> 01:05:39.119
Yeah.

1008
01:05:39.179 --> 01:05:43.019
Well, I mean, he just spends a lot of time declaiming to an empty room.

1009
01:05:43.079 --> 01:05:48.840
Look, I'm someone who loves, you know, this is the 1st of...

1010
01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:53.940
It's the 1st of a series, I've heard of Doctor Who stories, like the Mind Robber or the Macraterra.

1011
01:05:54.000 --> 01:05:57.719
Or the greatest show in the Galaxy, which I think is a remake of this.

1012
01:05:57.840 --> 01:06:01.500
All of which I think are great, but this is just awful.

1013
01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:03.780
And it is because there's no plot.

1014
01:06:03.840 --> 01:06:05.460
There's just a bunch of things that happen.

1015
01:06:05.519 --> 01:06:14.099
You know, you get to the end of the level and you get the TARDIS and the crappy rhyme, which then appears over the credits, and then you get to the next level and stuff.

1016
01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:17.219
It's something that could have gone on for like 50 episodes.

1017
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:18.420
You know what I mean?

1018
01:06:18.480 --> 01:06:30.780
Like, it's something that doesn't help is that when they were planning on bringing the toy maker back in the 1980s and they were planning on making it nightmare fair, they were planning on making it about video games and amusement parks.

1019
01:06:30.840 --> 01:06:32.579
Now, as the book?

1020
01:06:32.639 --> 01:06:33.239
It's not bad.

1021
01:06:33.300 --> 01:06:37.559
And the thing is, as much as you go, oh, I don't know if that would work.

1022
01:06:37.619 --> 01:06:39.840
That is the modern entertainment of that era.

1023
01:06:39.900 --> 01:06:46.079
Whereas the games they are playing seem to me not to be the modern entertainment of the 60s.

1024
01:06:46.139 --> 01:06:48.119
You know, even the dancing bit.

1025
01:06:48.239 --> 01:06:50.820
It's ballroom dancing and it's ballet.

1026
01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:55.199
It's not groovy house dancing that we'll see in just a few stories in the war machines.

1027
01:06:55.260 --> 01:06:57.119
But isn't it isn't the point of it?

1028
01:06:57.179 --> 01:06:58.980
It's Victorian children's literature?

1029
01:06:59.039 --> 01:07:00.059
Like that, it has...

1030
01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:01.320
Yeah, it's Lewis Korean thing.

1031
01:07:01.380 --> 01:07:08.460
But I think I think it would have been far more effective if it had been stuff that children in the 60s would more easily recognise.

1032
01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:15.119
I mean, imagine, imagine if they had have just gone, right, We can't use the meta of this play we wanted to use.

1033
01:07:15.179 --> 01:07:16.619
Let's use the meta of Doctor Who.

1034
01:07:16.679 --> 01:07:19.920
Let's have Stephen and Dodo playing Daleks around a dance floor.

1035
01:07:19.980 --> 01:07:24.539
It's Doctor Who does pop symbolism as it was in 1965.

1036
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:26.219
It's actually Carnaby Street stuff.

1037
01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:29.579
Lewis Carroll was getting a huge revival. animation styles.

1038
01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:34.619
Later on, you're going to see yellow submarine with the Beatles using the same kind of language, visual language.

1039
01:07:34.679 --> 01:07:37.139
It's very much what's groovy right now.

1040
01:07:37.199 --> 01:07:42.539
Ah, yeah, and then it just goes, because you know what?

1041
01:07:42.599 --> 01:07:45.960
Ideas are great. visual cues are great, but you've got to have a...

1042
01:07:46.019 --> 01:07:51.840
You've got to have characters and you've got to have a plot and you don't have either of those. needed a lot of work.

1043
01:07:51.900 --> 01:07:53.639
It was a last thing.

1044
01:07:53.699 --> 01:08:02.099
Well, you can see this is a political deflation of the Doctor Who program where some people win, but as you said, it's a pyrrhic victory for our hero, Billy.

1045
01:08:02.159 --> 01:08:06.840
Yeah, I don't think so much that it was a rough script. the rewrite was rushed.

1046
01:08:06.900 --> 01:08:09.059
The rewrite was very much rush.

1047
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:11.940
It was essentially rewritten from the ground up by Jerry Davis.

1048
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:13.079
You know who we haven't mentioned?

1049
01:08:13.139 --> 01:08:15.780
Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of Mr. Davis, as you're going to find out.

1050
01:08:15.840 --> 01:08:21.180
We haven't mentioned Jackie Lane's portrayal of Dodo.

1051
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:23.699
Oh, dear, even...

1052
01:08:23.819 --> 01:08:28.739
And so now she's got a receive pronunciation accent and she's like a blue Peter presenter.

1053
01:08:28.859 --> 01:08:34.739
But no one's got much to do, but she seems to play that her part in this show as if she is a Blue Peter presenter.

1054
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:38.159
I think she's been told she's playing a show for four-year-olds.

1055
01:08:38.220 --> 01:08:40.800
And she's ridiculously thought that that's true.

1056
01:08:40.859 --> 01:08:43.020
And yeah, just...

1057
01:08:43.020 --> 01:08:44.460
Doctor Who is not a children's program.

1058
01:08:44.520 --> 01:08:48.300
Dodo in this story is ridiculously stupid.

1059
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:50.279
But do you think they're both on mock?

1060
01:08:50.340 --> 01:08:51.899
You think they're both drugged out of their minds?

1061
01:08:51.899 --> 01:08:54.960
They found Adrian Hill's stash in the target.

1062
01:08:55.500 --> 01:08:59.100
The thing is, if she was going to play it like that.

1063
01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:06.840
They should have thrown in a line about how she's being affected by the environment because in the last episode, which we still have.

1064
01:09:06.899 --> 01:09:07.800
There's no tension.

1065
01:09:07.859 --> 01:09:11.220
I mean, the last episode, I would say, is the best of the four.

1066
01:09:11.279 --> 01:09:13.199
Because they...

1067
01:09:13.260 --> 01:09:16.680
No, also some stuff that happens, so that finally has some drama.

1068
01:09:16.800 --> 01:09:18.119
Yeah, they have a decent adversary.

1069
01:09:18.180 --> 01:09:21.479
So it was quite a... is terrific.

1070
01:09:21.539 --> 01:09:25.680
Yeah, again, another character, they thought that...

1071
01:09:25.739 --> 01:09:32.159
I'd like to know what older fans who were there for the 1st time around, and, you know, didn't remember it so well, but what do they think about it now?

1072
01:09:32.220 --> 01:09:33.000
Yeah.

1073
01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:41.939
Well, Rod did say, because, as I've said before, he started watching Patrick Grant, and he said, if I had a seen this when I was a child, I would have switched off.

1074
01:09:42.000 --> 01:09:42.960
What did he give it?

1075
01:09:43.020 --> 01:09:45.840
He gave it one out of 10, wow.

1076
01:09:45.840 --> 01:09:46.560
Wow, he's a child.

1077
01:09:46.800 --> 01:09:48.000
Which is his 2nd lowest score.

1078
01:09:48.060 --> 01:09:50.279
And yet at the time, people thought it was great.

1079
01:09:50.340 --> 01:09:52.020
Yeah, they were crazy.

1080
01:09:52.079 --> 01:09:53.760
They just finished rationing.

1081
01:09:53.819 --> 01:09:58.800
No, I think because it heats all the all the pop images of the time.

1082
01:09:58.859 --> 01:10:03.539
Visually, kids remember it as being cool because it looks like it should be right.

1083
01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:09.119
Last episode when we were talking about things like the web planet, you mentioned people being on substances and whatnot.

1084
01:10:09.180 --> 01:10:12.180
I think this is another one that would have been very popular with the students.

1085
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:16.619
The older university college polytechnics, you think so?

1086
01:10:16.680 --> 01:10:17.520
Yeah, maybe, yeah.

1087
01:10:17.819 --> 01:10:19.380
I think you would have had visual imagery.

1088
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:20.699
Yeah.

1089
01:10:20.699 --> 01:10:24.119
I thought the arc, maybe, or definitely the web planet, maybe more of that.

1090
01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:27.479
The viewers still stayed around 9000000 for this.

1091
01:10:27.539 --> 01:10:29.279
They didn't go beyond below 8.9.

1092
01:10:29.399 --> 01:10:31.800
They had nothing else to do. what they're going to do.

1093
01:10:32.279 --> 01:10:33.060
ITV.

1094
01:10:33.300 --> 01:10:37.800
I suppose they didn't analyse it and talk about it, Richard.

1095
01:10:38.340 --> 01:10:42.119
It did, yeah, but you know, it's...

1096
01:10:42.119 --> 01:10:43.560
Terrible, to be so.

1097
01:10:43.619 --> 01:10:45.600
All right, well, that's a lovely way to...

1098
01:10:45.600 --> 01:10:47.460
Are we concluding our episodes?

1099
01:10:47.579 --> 01:10:48.720
I think I think we are.

1100
01:10:48.779 --> 01:10:51.359
We've just been bitching nonstop.

1101
01:10:51.420 --> 01:11:00.779
Well, can we, I just think, if we could just go for another 15 minutes so that I could talk about how much I hate the massacre, that would be a perfect ending to this episode.

1102
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:03.840
And probably the loss of the listener as well.

1103
01:11:03.899 --> 01:11:08.699
Yeah, I think that would be a perfect ending to you going home and doing that by yourself.

1104
01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:14.100
But I think I actually do actually write out things about how much I hate them.

1105
01:11:14.100 --> 01:11:15.720
And tape them to telephone poles.

1106
01:11:15.779 --> 01:11:16.800
Oh, that's you.

1107
01:11:16.859 --> 01:11:17.520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1108
01:11:17.579 --> 01:11:18.539
I live.

1109
01:11:18.539 --> 01:11:19.140
Yeah, yeah.

1110
01:11:19.140 --> 01:11:20.880
Or sample, put pixels.

1111
01:11:20.939 --> 01:11:27.300
Someone's actually given your picture of Leonard Sachs at the admiral did holding an even bigger moustache.

1112
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.460
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite elaborate.

1113
01:11:29.579 --> 01:11:31.800
But no, I think I think it just goes...

1114
01:11:31.859 --> 01:11:32.819
I think it just goes to show.

1115
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:37.260
I mean, these 3 stories are the 3 stories when John Wiles was in total control.

1116
01:11:37.319 --> 01:11:39.060
It just shows...

1117
01:11:39.060 --> 01:11:40.920
How terrible he was for Doctor Who.

1118
01:11:40.979 --> 01:11:42.779
You know, I don't want to say anything against the man.

1119
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:46.140
Obviously, he's no longer with us, and I know very little about him outside of Doctor Who.

1120
01:11:46.920 --> 01:11:49.619
He did kick puppies though, I'm told.

1121
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:52.199
Well, his background is, I thought he ate them.

1122
01:11:52.260 --> 01:11:55.920
His background is in children's theatre for the death.

1123
01:11:55.979 --> 01:11:59.340
I'd like to think that, actually, maybe he's a nice person.

1124
01:11:59.340 --> 01:12:00.899
That there's more to him than that.

1125
01:12:00.960 --> 01:12:01.380
Yeah.

1126
01:12:01.439 --> 01:12:12.000
I think he had a lot of battle with Billy, and he was coming in on the back of, you know, an extraordinary producer, and he look, I mean, he probably only kicked puppies on really bad days.

1127
01:12:12.359 --> 01:12:14.760
When he was like really cross.

1128
01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.119
Yeah, well, you know what?

1129
01:12:18.180 --> 01:12:18.779
That's the thing.

1130
01:12:18.840 --> 01:12:20.760
Everyone's got their own story.

1131
01:12:20.819 --> 01:12:27.300
And when we come down to it, each of these stories does have something to redeem them. even in the celestial toy maker.

1132
01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:28.319
Well, it's only 4 episodes.

1133
01:12:28.380 --> 01:12:29.699
It's only could have been eight.

1134
01:12:29.760 --> 01:12:30.840
It could have been 20.

1135
01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:32.100
It's only 4 episodes.

1136
01:12:32.159 --> 01:12:33.479
Michael Goff's very good.

1137
01:12:33.539 --> 01:12:36.060
The arc has a really good idea behind it.

1138
01:12:36.119 --> 01:12:37.920
And the massacre is brilliant.

1139
01:12:37.979 --> 01:12:40.920
And as we're ending now, you're not going to say anything else, Nathan.

1140
01:12:41.399 --> 01:12:42.180
Good night.

1141
01:12:42.539 --> 01:12:44.039
Good night.

1142
01:12:44.100 --> 01:12:45.840
The mess is terrible.

1143
01:12:45.899 --> 01:12:49.619
Thank you very much for taking a partisan, a bipartisan view.

1144
01:12:49.739 --> 01:12:50.819
This, dear listener.

1145
01:12:50.880 --> 01:12:51.180
Thank you.

1146
01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:51.659
Bye.

1147
01:12:57.720 --> 01:13:01.680
You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Botomley, Brendan Jones and Richard Stone.

1148
01:13:01.800 --> 01:13:05.760
This episode, someone lost their veagle, who was recorded on Sunday, the 10th of August.

1149
01:13:05.819 --> 01:13:08.399
The next episode will be released on September 14th.

1150
01:13:08.460 --> 01:13:14.760
You can find us at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1151
01:13:14.819 --> 01:13:16.859
If we are to play endless games together.

1152
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:17.939
My choice is Mario Kart.

1153
01:13:21.119 --> 01:13:23.460
This is Flight through Entirety.

1154
01:13:24.000 --> 01:13:25.979
Now, what was my thing?

1155
01:13:26.220 --> 01:13:28.920
My thing, what stories are we doing?

1156
01:13:28.979 --> 01:13:30.420
Who am I?

1157
01:13:31.020 --> 01:13:35.340
We're the only podcast without a ping pong balling.