WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:42:18 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.919 Hello everyone, Brendan here. 2 00:00:01.980 --> 00:00:06.480 I just wanted to give you all a quick update on Flight Through Entirety before we start the episode proper. 3 00:00:06.540 --> 00:00:12.900 We've got a situation in the next couple of months where it's going to be difficult for us all to get together to record. 4 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:19.260 So we've taken the decision that after this week, our snake dance episode. 5 00:00:19.320 --> 00:00:28.320 We're going to be going fortnightly until the beginning of season 21, possibly a few episodes in there, but during season 21, we will go back to weekly. 6 00:00:28.379 --> 00:00:32.100 At this stage, we're hoping to keep Bondfinger on monthly. 7 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:36.240 And yeah, just a fortnightly. schedule for flight through entirety. 8 00:00:36.299 --> 00:00:47.820 It was either that or put all of season 20 out weekly and then have a long break and um, well, we have done that before this time we decided we wanted to keep our releases up as long as possible. 9 00:00:47.880 --> 00:00:52.380 There may be a little bit of a gap in November depending on what we can get recorded in the next month. 10 00:00:52.439 --> 00:00:54.840 But thank you very much for understanding. 11 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:57.659 There will still be regular episodes of Flight Through Entirety. 12 00:00:57.719 --> 00:00:59.700 Sorry this one's a bit late, but I do hope you enjoy it. 13 00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:00.299 Thank you. 14 00:01:31.859 --> 00:01:39.959 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast hosted by the Five Phases of Delusion. 15 00:01:40.019 --> 00:01:40.560 I'm Brendan. 16 00:01:40.620 --> 00:01:41.400 I'm Nathan. 17 00:01:41.459 --> 00:01:42.959 And I'm Todd. 18 00:01:43.019 --> 00:01:44.159 I'm not deluded. 19 00:01:44.459 --> 00:01:50.640 The others will disagree with me. this particular recording, but I swear to God I'm not. 20 00:01:50.700 --> 00:01:57.299 But the listener may find themselves deluded by the time we get to the end of the sequel to Kinder, snake dance. 21 00:02:10.020 --> 00:02:13.199 Well, this is mine, and I've really got nothing. 22 00:02:13.259 --> 00:02:15.120 I have no opinion on this story at all. 23 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:16.319 Excellent. 24 00:02:16.379 --> 00:02:16.860 So can I talk? 25 00:02:16.919 --> 00:02:17.580 Yeah, yes. 26 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:18.960 I'm gonna throw it to Todd. 27 00:02:19.020 --> 00:02:25.979 So I wasn't here for the love fest that was Kinder, where I almost wanted to bath in my breakfast. 28 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:29.819 My opinion of Kinder is a bit different to everybody else's. 29 00:02:29.879 --> 00:02:34.439 And I quite like it now, especially the Mary Morris stuff. 30 00:02:34.500 --> 00:02:37.680 But I don't connect with Hindle. 31 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:38.340 Hindle. 32 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:40.379 That leads me Stone Cold Dead. 33 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:42.360 I don't like all the stuff in Tegan's mind. 34 00:02:42.419 --> 00:02:48.120 And so I know you guys put some really good point of view across on all of that and I can understand where you're coming from. 35 00:02:48.180 --> 00:02:50.219 But I give it to six, 6.5 . 36 00:02:50.280 --> 00:02:51.840 As a child. 37 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:55.620 Kinder was my most hated Doctor Who story of all time. 38 00:02:56.819 --> 00:02:58.680 When I watched it. 39 00:02:58.740 --> 00:03:00.240 I literally gave it one out of 10. 40 00:03:00.539 --> 00:03:10.259 So when I came to this story, Snake Dance, you can imagine my overwhelming joy at having the Mara back for this. 41 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:14.039 And I gave this less than what I gave to Kingdom. 42 00:03:14.099 --> 00:03:14.819 Really? 43 00:03:14.819 --> 00:03:23.580 So that's where I'm coming from with this entire story and podcast. 44 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:29.099 So if Kinder has gone up, obviously, 6 times over in my opinion. 45 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:38.159 When I came to this, I knew that I knew in my heart that, you know, it was something that I hoped that I would discover would be, you know, at least better than what I thought. 46 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:44.699 And I have to say, I think of all the Peter Davidsons, this is my biggest surprise of the whole lot. 47 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:47.400 I really enjoyed watching. 48 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:49.620 The majority of this story. 49 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:58.259 It's not without its faults, including virtually all of the episode 3 where the doctor is locked in a cell and I just think is just tedious to the extreme and stops the story dead. 50 00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:15.120 But, The thing that I found really intriguing with this is that I start off really interested in the 3 leads, like, so imagine a bar graph where my interest in with them and their characterisation. 51 00:04:15.180 --> 00:04:19.199 As the story goes on, my interest in them and their characterisation. 52 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:21.240 As the story goes on, my interest in. 53 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:34.259 At the start of this story, I'm confronted with some stupid woman in a marketplace, some over the top seller of hall of mirrors, this brat, his stuck up mother, and some other idiot in government. 54 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:37.860 But that's my 10 year old self thinking. 55 00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:41.579 So I start off with, no, limited interest. 56 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.779 But the absolute joy is, as I was watching this, like within moments. 57 00:04:45.899 --> 00:04:52.379 These other characters in the cast, either so 3 and four, I just want to know all about them. 58 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:53.339 Yeah, yeah. 59 00:04:53.399 --> 00:05:01.920 And you guys have had a love fest with Fiona coming from the moment she started directing, and I think that she's quite weak when it comes to doing big technical stuff. 60 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:15.420 But this story just opened my eyes, she is fantastic at casting the right people to bring these characters to life, and it is the absolute strength of his story, and I just adored it. 61 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.920 The great thing about this story, the other great thing is that there's a world. 62 00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:25.680 So, Manusa, which is partly for humanity, in fact, humankind. 63 00:05:25.740 --> 00:05:30.480 Seems like a kind of place that has a history and a backstory and things. 64 00:05:30.540 --> 00:05:39.420 And the fun thing about it is a lot of that backstory is revealed to us in conversation with Tanha and Long, her son. 65 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:47.040 And that backstory could have just been an exposition dump, but the relationship between those 2 characters is so great. 66 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:49.500 It's so great. 67 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:50.879 So he's bored. 68 00:05:50.939 --> 00:05:53.819 She's terrifically, insanely posh. 69 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.360 The 2 of them really kind of like each other. 70 00:05:57.420 --> 00:05:59.759 He's naughty and unpleasant. 71 00:05:59.819 --> 00:06:10.500 We're going to next story, have, you know, a posh person who is obnoxious and and sows trouble, you know, and likes to irritate people. 72 00:06:10.560 --> 00:06:14.519 But Martin Cloons in this is just terrific as that character. 73 00:06:14.579 --> 00:06:29.100 Um, it's, There's a, there's a scene, I think, later on where Tan has not talking to him because he was really rude to Amber in the caves and he's being naughty and stuff. 74 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:35.939 And then later on, she says something to him and he goes, am I forgiven mother and she says, oh, aren't you always? 75 00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.420 It's just, it's just terrific. 76 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:40.800 And we never see the federator. 77 00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:41.759 We never see their father. 78 00:06:41.819 --> 00:06:45.899 But he's got a well-defined character and they're really funny. 79 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:47.279 Exactly. 80 00:06:47.339 --> 00:06:49.920 You see his character and he's not even there. 81 00:06:49.980 --> 00:06:51.839 And then it's such a strength. 82 00:06:51.959 --> 00:06:53.819 Those 2 work so well together. 83 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:55.199 And Martin Clunes. 84 00:06:55.259 --> 00:06:56.939 The performance is just brilliant. 85 00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.639 I mean, he's mega fit as well, can I just say? 86 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:00.360 Like, you know? 87 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:05.279 Yeah, he looks he looks great and he, again, it's what you were saying about casting. 88 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:13.560 The casting is so good because at this stage in his life, he is very pretty and sort of classically good looking. 89 00:07:13.620 --> 00:07:20.160 And when he's, you know, he's very still at times and he's standing like a Grecian statue and he's got the very full features of his face. 90 00:07:20.220 --> 00:07:21.839 His lips are enormous. 91 00:07:21.899 --> 00:07:25.680 You know, he has that classical look. 92 00:07:25.740 --> 00:07:36.839 And you've got John Carson as Ambrill, you know, and he is wonderfully pompous, and you've got Jonathan Morris as Sheila, and he's lovely. 93 00:07:36.899 --> 00:07:40.139 Like you were saying last week, Todd, the chemistry between Damon and Nissa was great. 94 00:07:40.199 --> 00:07:44.699 It's just turned up to 15 with Sheila and Nissa, you know. 95 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:46.379 They are so adorable together. 96 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:53.160 He's really pretty and Fiona, of course, wins points again as the director by putting men in dresses, right? 97 00:07:53.220 --> 00:07:54.839 She always does. as she always does. 98 00:07:54.959 --> 00:08:14.160 I do, I do think this, however, that, you know, again, when it's him and Mr. and the doctor, Mr. becomes the 3rd wheel, and it's one of the disappointments I find in this story is the fact that the last time out, he didn't even write her into the story, nobody bothered, like the easiest thing was to write her out rather than to write her in. 99 00:08:14.220 --> 00:08:16.560 Here she's here, but she's very perfunctory. 100 00:08:16.620 --> 00:08:20.699 Obviously, Tegan takes the most of the limelight because of her mental condition. 101 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:22.379 But what's Nissa given to do? 102 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.420 This is given to look after Tegan. 103 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:25.379 She fails at that. 104 00:08:25.439 --> 00:08:35.580 Then, of course, she comes back to her, and then she runs off, and then she fails to find her, and then the doctor gives Nissa the great thing of trying to get him out of the cell, and lo and behold, what does she get to do? 105 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:41.039 rough a few a few pages on a desk, go down a bland corridor and she fails at that. 106 00:08:41.100 --> 00:08:59.519 You know, her 3 big moments in this story are screening, fantastic scream at the end of the cliffhanger where they're going to be all killed, being a bitch to the doctor when he tries to help her down off the Rockcliff, and in episode one when she turns up wearing the most hideous, biggest bow thing ever. 107 00:08:59.580 --> 00:09:00.480 They're her 3 moments. 108 00:09:00.539 --> 00:09:02.399 And Sarah Sutton does a wonderful job. 109 00:09:02.519 --> 00:09:03.539 Yeah, yeah, she's great. 110 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:11.820 But I just think the character, again, of the 3 regulars in this, unfortunately, I just think gets pushed very much for me anyway. 111 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:14.460 I just don't think I wanted more after last week. 112 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:15.720 I wanted her to have more. 113 00:09:15.779 --> 00:09:18.240 I just wanted more, and in this, I just was disappointed. 114 00:09:18.299 --> 00:09:21.840 See, I think last week was a bit of a tour de force for Nessa. 115 00:09:21.899 --> 00:09:25.679 And so this week becomes a more of a tour de force for Tegan. 116 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:31.559 And Janet Hamara performance in this, much like her performances, Tegan. moved on from last year. 117 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.639 And I think that it's a polarising performance. 118 00:09:35.700 --> 00:09:38.340 I've heard people expressing different opinions. 119 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:45.600 Richard and I were actually discussing it early this week because he was saying, oh, you know, I'm looking forward to hearing you guys talk about snake dance. 120 00:09:45.659 --> 00:09:48.539 I think it's going to be really fun, but here's what I think. 121 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:53.340 He and I are of the same mind that Janet is just really electric in this. 122 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.080 Richard's also cited John Carson, who I mentioned earlier. 123 00:09:58.139 --> 00:10:03.179 I want to come back to something you were saying earlier, Todd, about the doctor being locked up for all of episode three. 124 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:05.639 It is a common problem in the Davis era. 125 00:10:05.700 --> 00:10:11.580 And it reaches its Nadir with Colin, and that is not the fault of Davidson or Colin. 126 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:15.539 But I think this is one story where it actually works. 127 00:10:15.899 --> 00:10:17.639 I disagree. 128 00:10:17.700 --> 00:10:19.500 Why do you think that, though? 129 00:10:21.059 --> 00:10:26.039 This is a story in which the Mara can only be defeated at a certain moment. 130 00:10:26.100 --> 00:10:28.620 It can't be defeated before that moment comes. 131 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:30.299 It can't be defeated after that moment. 132 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:37.019 It has to be defeated in the moment of its becoming, which the doctor will retread next week when Tegan asks him about it. 133 00:10:37.139 --> 00:10:40.259 So the doctor has to be locked up. 134 00:10:40.320 --> 00:10:47.279 He has to be locked up for episode 3 because otherwise he won't be in the right position to do anything in episode four. 135 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:54.960 So normally when the doctor's locked up like that, it's just a delaying tactic to spin the story out and prevent him getting to its resolution. 136 00:10:55.019 --> 00:11:04.500 Now, the thing is here, it's still a delaying tactic to prevent the story getting to its resolution, but that prevention is actually built into the plan of the plot. 137 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:06.840 The other reason I really like the doctor getting locked up. 138 00:11:07.200 --> 00:11:10.620 And again, this is something I was discussing with Richard. 139 00:11:10.799 --> 00:11:14.220 As Richard puts it, Pete is the anti-Tom. 140 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:17.460 So Tom would walk into a room and say, you're all in terrible danger. 141 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:20.159 Something terrible, mysterious is about to happen. 142 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:21.779 And people would go, oh, right, okay. 143 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:23.580 Well, you come over here and you take charge then. 144 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.240 Whereas Pete walks in and says that and everyone goes, he's a bloody nutter. 145 00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:31.860 Chuck him in the cells until the party's over, which is what real people would do. 146 00:11:31.919 --> 00:11:34.500 In fact, that stuff is great. 147 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:36.840 And that's something that Xander refers to as well. 148 00:11:36.899 --> 00:11:41.879 Pete's actually a little bit more manic in his performance in this story. 149 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:44.639 And so he does look like a madman. 150 00:11:44.700 --> 00:12:04.379 He does look like someone who's, uh, you know, and we gather that there's a whole history of people kind of obsessed with the Mara and with sort of crazy theories about the Mara and Amber, who's this academic, who's terribly pompous and self-important, um, is used to just dismissing those people as crackpots. 151 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:07.799 And Pete looks like a bit of a crackpot, the way he comes around. 152 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:14.639 And of course, that's why Amber gets so incredibly angry when Pete points out about the 5 faces of delusion. 153 00:12:14.700 --> 00:12:16.200 That was so brilliant. 154 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:20.820 That whole, like, just the 3 actors and the way they perform it. 155 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:32.279 Like Pete is just utterly sincere and, oh, I'm teaching you something here and John Carson, as Amber, is outraged and Sheila is trying not to wet his pants laughing. 156 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:35.220 It's such a beautiful little scene. 157 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:39.360 Yeah, it's not like it has any major bearing on the plot later. 158 00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:41.519 Like the helmet doesn't become important or anything. 159 00:12:41.580 --> 00:12:44.580 It's not a McGuffin, but it's thematic. 160 00:12:44.639 --> 00:12:49.139 It's the doctor is the outsider who is able to see the whole pattern of what's going on. 161 00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.840 Whereas these supposed experts. 162 00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:57.240 Can't see the whole pattern because they don't see their place within it. think it's a beautiful moment. 163 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:02.340 I think one of the things when I was watching this is that I felt that the doctor came across as being autistic. 164 00:13:02.399 --> 00:13:04.080 In many ways. 165 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:08.159 Like Misa walks in in this new costume and he doesn't even register that change. 166 00:13:08.220 --> 00:13:16.200 When he's talking to Amberl and trying to get his point across, he's oblivious to any of the cues to say you're not getting your point across. 167 00:13:16.259 --> 00:13:21.059 I mean, I teach kids with autism who can't see people's emotions and that sort of thing. 168 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.100 So that's the way it came across to me. 169 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:34.740 I know it's supposed to be like it's supposed to be alien and that sort of thing, but well, for the last bit of run where I felt Peter's just been very nice, you know, and suddenly, suddenly there's this sort of big contrast in what he's doing. 170 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:39.779 I mean, I actually think it's really good that I can see this sort of frustration in the doctorate. 171 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:46.679 It reminds me of perchway in season 7 where he sort of barges in and everybody, you know, and is having a go at people saying warning them and they're not listening. 172 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:54.299 I think that's really good And it sells it with Amber, who I think his performance is actually, I think, one of the best Amber or 2 because that character could be really crap. 173 00:13:54.360 --> 00:14:01.019 But you know when you meet reasonable people who can argue any point of view based on their interpretation of facts. 174 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.679 But, you know, their interpretation is very narrow. 175 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:08.100 Yes, but they're perfectly reasonable to themselves and everybody around them. 176 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:10.679 You know, and I think he does just a brilliant job with that. 177 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:22.799 In the 2nd half of the story, I just feel like the doctor is in that cell, I don't feel like there's any great, maybe characterisation. 178 00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:26.279 He gets to go and meet the man with the snakes and then come back and save the day. 179 00:14:26.340 --> 00:14:29.399 So I really like the doctor's characterisation in those 1st 2 episodes. 180 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:38.460 I want to go back and watch I actually want to go back and watch the 1st 2 episodes because I had that sort of thing in my head is about the doctor's performance. 181 00:14:38.519 --> 00:14:43.320 Having watched now ahead in season 21 and seeing what Peter's doing in season 21, which I think is great. 182 00:14:43.379 --> 00:14:45.960 It's like, this is why I want to come back and watch that. 183 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:51.779 But the 2nd episodes I'm less inclined with his character and everything like that, I just think it's a bit... 184 00:14:51.899 --> 00:14:57.120 He does get a bit de-emphasized in favour of sort of Tegan and what's going on with Amber and Lon. 185 00:14:57.179 --> 00:14:59.340 I know in Crown Cross, it's overly critical of it. 186 00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:01.019 I think Peter does a really great job in this story. 187 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:01.799 Don't get me wrong. 188 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:04.139 Remember, Peter Davidson is my least favourite doctor. 189 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:07.799 And so for me it's always hard to distance myself from that perception. 190 00:15:07.860 --> 00:15:10.679 I think he's really doing a great job here and he's given great material. 191 00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:12.720 I think it's the best material he actually has all season. 192 00:15:12.779 --> 00:15:19.500 Having Janet have such great material as well, you know, I don't like her in episode one very much. 193 00:15:19.559 --> 00:15:39.480 Like I don't like when she's wandering through the marketplace with the little earpiece in and being led by the hand and stuff and she's sort of vulnerable and she's a bit pathetic and we do mark time a bit at the beginning of episode one with those scenes in the TARDIS and maybe we need to do that to kind of sell the possession by the Mara. 194 00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:41.879 Yeah, I think I think it sells a few. 195 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:47.340 It sells, for instance, that Tegan is now back because we didn't have the TARDIS prop in Amsterdam. 196 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:48.960 We don't see her getting into the target. 197 00:15:49.019 --> 00:15:51.659 So it kind of sells, yep, she's back on the show. 198 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:54.059 I think the other thing it sells is she's not safe anywhere. 199 00:15:54.120 --> 00:15:55.019 Yeah. 200 00:15:55.019 --> 00:16:02.759 Because, you know, the TARDIS is supposed to be this safe environment, which they'd already started to break down that impression with Earthshock, of course. 201 00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:05.759 But she's not even safe in the Tardis. 202 00:16:05.820 --> 00:16:10.320 And Christopher Bailey, the writer when he talks about this story. 203 00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:17.879 He talks about what he saw as some of the frustrations with how Kinder had been mounted. 204 00:16:17.940 --> 00:16:27.539 So for instance, he didn't realise in setting it outdoors, that he wouldn't be totally happy with the outdoor set. 205 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.779 So he sets it in a market and he sets it indoors. 206 00:16:30.779 --> 00:16:35.100 And he's like, oh, okay, I didn't really like the 20 foot high snakes. so he makes them are smaller. 207 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:50.340 A lot of the production elements of this story and the way they're presented is Christopher Bailey's response to the interpretation of his own work and he doesn't kind of say, oh, they did it wrong, but he kind of goes, you know, I didn't realise what the program could do well, what it couldn't do. 208 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.360 Well, I looked at what it could do. 209 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:55.200 Well, it can do interior sets really well and it can do marketplaces and what have you. 210 00:16:55.259 --> 00:17:02.220 I actually think the sort of dragon dance snake that is a big plastic pink snake that's going through the marketplace. 211 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:06.240 I think that's Christopher Bailey making fun of the snake at the island of Kinder. 212 00:17:06.299 --> 00:17:08.220 If this story were made now. 213 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:14.099 The cult of the Mara and people treating the Mara like a toy and selling toys of it. 214 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.460 That would be a satire of the action figure market. 215 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:19.619 And I suppose at the time you didn't have doctor action figures. 216 00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:23.700 Yeah, Star Wars action figures, which had massively taken off in those previous few years. 217 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:25.440 So that might be a comment on that. 218 00:17:25.500 --> 00:17:46.559 I guess the whole thing is like the reason that the Mara appears in sort of hilarious domestic violence themed Punch and Judy shows and the reason that you can buy like toy snakes and and there's the dragon dance is that this is a situation where the Mara is a legend, it's not real, and no one believes in it anymore. 219 00:17:46.619 --> 00:17:59.819 And so you've got Ambrill, who is interested in the legend of the Mara, has a great deal of knowledge about it and, you know, wants more. his greed for that knowledge that actually leads to the Mars becoming at the end. 220 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:01.619 So the Mara is not real. 221 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:07.140 We know it's real because we saw Kinder last year, but for these people, it's not real. 222 00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:11.640 So it just goes to show how unprepared they are, you know, to face the threat. 223 00:18:11.700 --> 00:18:12.839 Yeah, it's really great. 224 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:18.660 I like the fact that the snake is in the Punch and Judy show, but I don't like people watching the Punch and Judy. 225 00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:19.680 Like, I hate Punch and Judy. 226 00:18:19.740 --> 00:18:21.059 Like, I hate... 227 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:22.619 And watching explicable. 228 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.019 Watching people watch it is boring. 229 00:18:25.140 --> 00:18:31.200 And this time, like last week we had little kids watching some show and they had hideous jumpers this week, the kids are just hideous. 230 00:18:31.259 --> 00:18:34.920 You know, and I just sit there going, oh, please shoot me now. 231 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:43.019 Like, I mean, talk about some of the production elements here is you've got Fiona doing a fairly good job with the marketplace trying to sell that. 232 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:45.480 I'm not completely convinced all the time. 233 00:18:45.539 --> 00:18:49.319 It's like we've got like one big corridor and an offshoot and that's about it. 234 00:18:49.380 --> 00:18:54.000 I don't think there's enough people at the end, you know, as the procession goes through. 235 00:18:54.059 --> 00:18:56.640 But I mean, that's in Doctor Who's admitted budget. 236 00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:59.220 I love the outdoor sets that are set on film. 237 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:01.440 I think they look fantastic. 238 00:19:01.559 --> 00:19:03.240 You know, that is wonderful. 239 00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:12.779 You've then got all the interior sets, which I believe were borrowed off the song for Europe set and it's been redressed. 240 00:19:12.839 --> 00:19:15.539 But at the same time, I don't know. 241 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:26.400 I find them quite sterile, like that corridor that they go down, which like last week we had some sort of sterile corridors, blocky sort of white corridors in Arc of Infinity. 242 00:19:26.460 --> 00:19:31.859 So for those sequences in those episodes, I get a bit sort of like, okay, it's the same thing. 243 00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:41.279 And then we have that cliffhanger, with long threatening to kill the doctor with the people wearing, with the people wearing the stuff out of 4 to Doomsday. 244 00:19:41.339 --> 00:19:45.059 And Nissa gives a blood curdling scream, but then... 245 00:19:45.059 --> 00:19:48.299 It's another one of those cliffhangers we talked about them last season. 246 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:55.559 The cliffhanger which ends on someone saying, kill him, and then the next episode resumes with someone walking in and saying, stop. 247 00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:58.259 And that's what Lady Tanha does here. 248 00:19:58.319 --> 00:19:59.220 You know what? 249 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:03.119 I usually hate it, but the fact that it's her and the way she does it, I actually quite like it. 250 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:04.140 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 251 00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:11.160 And, you know, Sarah Sutton gives a great scream, but she says in the making of, when I look at that, what exactly am I screaming at? 252 00:20:11.220 --> 00:20:15.779 The swords know where near me and I'm grabbing onto Pete's arm, have I realised I'm allergic to his jacket? 253 00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:16.559 don't know. 254 00:20:16.619 --> 00:20:17.880 It's blood curdling. 255 00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:20.700 She gives the same blood curdling screaming terminus as well. 256 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:24.480 And um, and last week in um, in Ark of Infinity. 257 00:20:24.539 --> 00:20:33.240 A good Doctor Who scream, if you like, because one of the stereotypes, so not entirely undeserved, of the female styles of Doctor Who is that they just scream at things. 258 00:20:33.299 --> 00:20:38.819 And when they're at their worst... when they're written at their worst, yes, they do. 259 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:49.980 But when they're written at their best, The screams are occasional, they're truly terrifying and emotional, and they're effective because of that. 260 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:56.400 So yeah, NISA screens in what foot of doomsday, and she does scream in these 3 stories here. 261 00:20:56.460 --> 00:21:03.480 But each time it's like, no, that's that's an understandable reaction, not so much in snake dance, unfortunately. 262 00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:08.579 A word about the sets, and this came from Richard, and we would be in great trouble if we didn't include it. 263 00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:11.039 The Mara Cave. 264 00:21:11.099 --> 00:21:12.599 It's German expressionism. 265 00:21:12.660 --> 00:21:13.680 Of course it is. 266 00:21:13.740 --> 00:21:19.980 Can I talk about the fact that Tegan leads Lon to the Mara Cave? 267 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:26.039 And then she gets to disappear for about 15 to 20 minutes of the story just, she's just waiting. 268 00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:27.599 Hanging out in the cave. 269 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:28.019 Yeah, yeah. 270 00:21:28.019 --> 00:21:28.859 She's just waiting. 271 00:21:28.920 --> 00:21:29.759 She just disappears. 272 00:21:29.819 --> 00:21:33.900 And that's one of my problems I have with Kinder, is the fact that she's just asleep for a whole episode. 273 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:35.160 He just leaves her hanging. 274 00:21:35.220 --> 00:21:36.119 She does get that. 275 00:21:36.299 --> 00:21:39.359 Is it the cliffhanger where they go, look at me, look at me. 276 00:21:39.420 --> 00:21:39.960 That's right. 277 00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:40.980 You will look at me. 278 00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:46.559 I remember that as a kid because my sister and I used to grab each other at the head. and go, look at me. 279 00:21:46.619 --> 00:21:47.160 That's right. 280 00:21:47.220 --> 00:21:49.140 Look at me, look at Mandarin. 281 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:53.759 I don't know why we came up with that, but that's the one overriding memory I have of this. 282 00:21:53.819 --> 00:21:58.380 There's very little peril because, of course, the Mara isn't in it until the very end. 283 00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:00.000 It's all about the Mara becoming. 284 00:22:00.059 --> 00:22:03.720 So there is actually very little threat leading up to that. 285 00:22:03.779 --> 00:22:11.460 But those 2 cliffhangers, Cliffhanger to episode one and to episode 2 are both about Tegan being really scary. 286 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:13.440 And she really manages that well. 287 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:16.500 And those scenes with the snake skulls. 288 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:22.920 So 1st in the in the fortune tellers crystal ball, and then replacing her head in the Funhouse mirror. 289 00:22:22.980 --> 00:22:25.680 I think they're really frightening and really effective. 290 00:22:25.740 --> 00:22:38.819 Yeah, and for once, the CSO in Tegan's dream sequence very early on and her just sort of being not actually walking but being moved up the staircase into the mouth of the cave, it's really well done. 291 00:22:38.819 --> 00:22:42.420 You kind of expect Doctor Who to have dodgy CSO. 292 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:48.900 But they start to use it a bit more sparingly in the 1980s and it's kind of like, no, let's actually get the shots right. 293 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:51.599 Let's not have another underworld or the mutants or something like that. 294 00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:54.779 Let's actually make this look as good as possible. 295 00:22:54.839 --> 00:22:55.740 And that dream is terrifying. 296 00:22:55.799 --> 00:23:00.059 Is that the dream where she's lying in benches, I'm in my garden, silly. 297 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.099 Oh, well, that's later on. 298 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:06.180 But even, even that's, you know, that's lovely. that's Janet. 299 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:10.140 And it's a little bit silly, but it's a little bit menacing as well. 300 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:13.380 Well, she tells lies in her garden or something. 301 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:21.839 Like, there is, there's something, there's some moral failing that's, that's causing the Mara to have some kind of tone. 302 00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:27.119 Or, you know, is the Mara now seeping back into her childhood and it's open to interpretation. 303 00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:29.940 I'm not I'm not going to try and make an answer here. 304 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:31.559 I agree with you in that. 305 00:23:31.619 --> 00:23:34.619 I like Janet's performance in this immensely. 306 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.240 Like, I think she is really great. 307 00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:41.400 The Kinder performance, I think, is much broader and I still think she's in her playhouse acting stage. 308 00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:49.259 I know you guys disagree with me, possibly with that, but I prefer this performance and that's probably why I don't like, it's another thing about Hindu. 309 00:23:49.319 --> 00:23:51.240 I don't like as much in retrospect. 310 00:23:51.299 --> 00:23:55.680 Last week we had one monster, which was called the Ergon, and it killed no one. 311 00:23:55.740 --> 00:23:58.319 This week we have Damara and it kills. 312 00:23:58.319 --> 00:23:59.339 No one. 313 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:00.900 Actually, no one dies in this story. 314 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:01.500 That's right. 315 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:02.519 That's not a bad thing. 316 00:24:03.420 --> 00:24:14.640 I just begin to get a bit sick that, you know, next week, actually, nobody dies except for the people who want to die, and the week after that, the big, huge creature that's in there kills no one. 317 00:24:14.700 --> 00:24:18.779 Like, it just becomes this pattern of the creature or whatever kills no one. 318 00:24:18.839 --> 00:24:26.519 And it's something that, possibly, thematically I have a problem with, watching things in order, it really began to do my head. 319 00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:30.960 You're not having actual proper monsters, they're a little bit more conceptual or something. 320 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:35.460 For me, I need to feel a threat, a real threat that people have died. 321 00:24:35.519 --> 00:24:41.759 For me, that's my interpretation adopted who, whereas this is obviously on a different level and I don't connect with it as much. 322 00:24:41.819 --> 00:24:42.240 Right. 323 00:24:42.240 --> 00:25:01.920 Yeah, I will say this season runs into a bit of a problem and it's a bit of a problem of over-promise and I'm to deliver because the 1st few scripts were sort of conceptualised and it was like, oh, you know, we'll bring back, we'll bring back over a story and we'll, we should do another Mara story that was quite popular last season. 324 00:25:01.980 --> 00:25:03.660 Oh, and we're bringing back the Black Guardian. 325 00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:05.400 And someone went, oh, hold on. 326 00:25:05.460 --> 00:25:08.400 So far, we've got an element from the past in every story. 327 00:25:08.460 --> 00:25:10.559 Let's advertise the season as that. 328 00:25:10.619 --> 00:25:14.039 And of course, they were going to end on a dalek story, which doesn't end up happening. 329 00:25:14.099 --> 00:25:18.960 But the problem is, you know, it's kind of like we've got elements from the past. 330 00:25:19.019 --> 00:25:27.900 We've got Omega, and we've got the Mara from 6 months ago, and we've got the Black Guardian 3 times over. 331 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:29.759 Oh, and the White Guardian, you know. 332 00:25:29.819 --> 00:25:33.180 And the master from 3 months ago. 333 00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:35.400 And Daleks? 334 00:25:35.460 --> 00:25:47.160 It's like, uh, um, yeah, and it led to that fan room of it, terminus was going to have the ice warriors in it, which apparently was never even considered, but people were clutching at bringing this old stuff back. 335 00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:50.759 But it doesn't look like they've actually considered what do people want to come back? 336 00:25:51.059 --> 00:25:54.599 When you look at the 50th anniversary seasons. 337 00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.339 Series 7. 338 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.500 You've got a Dalek story. 339 00:25:58.559 --> 00:26:03.599 You've got a weeping angel story, you've got nice warrior story, and you've got a Cyberman story. 340 00:26:03.660 --> 00:26:06.059 I have no memory of series 7. 341 00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:10.559 Series 7's greatest crime is that it's a bit forgettable. 342 00:26:10.619 --> 00:26:11.819 That's the thing. 343 00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:13.079 Oh, and of course it has. 344 00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:15.900 Solarian and unit, you know. 345 00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:22.920 So, that had sort of organic stories grown around these returning elements. 346 00:26:22.980 --> 00:26:31.559 Whereas I think the returning elements this season and Snake Dance is probably the exception in that Snake Dance is a bloody good story in its own right with a returning monster. 347 00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:33.720 Yeah, you could have done snake dance. 348 00:26:33.779 --> 00:26:40.200 And in fact, it kind of it kind of wants there to be a sequel in a way, just given the way that Tegan has left at the end of Kinder. 349 00:26:40.259 --> 00:26:42.359 So it kind of happens naturally. 350 00:26:42.420 --> 00:26:48.359 And if it hadn't been the 20th anniversary, we probably would still have seen a sequel to Kinder. 351 00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:51.839 Yeah, whereas I think some other stories in the season, not all of them. 352 00:26:51.900 --> 00:27:03.779 Some of the stories in the season, once they've decided on that, A monster from the past in every story, hook, they just kind of go, we've got Omega in a story. 353 00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:04.680 Okay, what's the story? 354 00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:07.079 We've got Omega in a story. 355 00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:11.640 You know, it's like there's, I would say, at least 3 stories this season. 356 00:27:11.700 --> 00:27:20.099 Snake Dance is not one of them, but Arc of Infinity is, where they've gone, oh, we've got this returning monster and we've got this returning monster, you know, and they think that's going to be enough. 357 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:21.720 It's just not enough. 358 00:27:21.779 --> 00:27:22.259 Yeah. 359 00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:33.960 And in fact, what they do with the Mara in this is, I think, really incredibly clever, because when we 1st meet the Mara, they're some strange force from the dark places of the inside. 360 00:27:34.019 --> 00:27:37.440 They're kind of supernatural or demons or something like that. 361 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:46.740 They come into our reality through the, you know, dreaming of an unshared mind and they're completely spoken of in sort of magical or mythological terms. 362 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:50.220 And in this story, we actually get the origin of the Mara. 363 00:27:50.279 --> 00:27:52.200 We actually find out how they were created. 364 00:27:52.259 --> 00:27:55.259 And it is like a science fiction-y thing. 365 00:27:55.319 --> 00:28:02.279 There's a lost technology that created these crystals that rayified people's thoughts, turned thoughts into reality. 366 00:28:02.339 --> 00:28:04.380 But the people were evil. 367 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:16.019 Or there was evil inside those people, the same way that there's evil inside little baby Tegan in her garden telling lies, and that that evil creates the Mara. 368 00:28:16.079 --> 00:28:19.440 And so the Mara is the result of human evil. 369 00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:21.779 It's something that people have created. 370 00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:29.220 And so it is science fiction in this talk of sort of 0 gravity and all of that sort of stuff and flawless crystals and things. 371 00:28:29.279 --> 00:28:32.759 But it doesn't rob it of its mythology. 372 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:38.220 You know, like it's not a big ophidian monster that evolved on the planet Maros. 373 00:28:38.279 --> 00:28:39.119 Do you know what I mean? 374 00:28:39.180 --> 00:28:40.859 Yeah, or something stupid. 375 00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:47.220 It's still, it's still sort of symbolic of what it had been symbolic of in Kinder. 376 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:48.119 I think it's really good. 377 00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:56.160 The best science fiction is not the science fiction that's based around the fact that we're on rocket ships and flying around sons and what have you. 378 00:28:56.220 --> 00:29:01.740 The best science fiction could still be told in any setting because it's about the species you're looking at. 379 00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:03.839 So, you know, usually in our case it's humanity. 380 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:21.480 Now, obviously you've got writers like Larry Niven, who will write stories where there are no human characters, but we can still recognise humanity, if you like, in the characters, or the whole story becomes about the fact that these characters are totally alien and we cannot recognise anything within them. 381 00:29:21.599 --> 00:29:29.400 Yeah, when you get science fiction, there is just about the 0 gravity welding, blah, blah, mega flammity converters. 382 00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:31.259 Like Arc of Infinity, friends. 383 00:29:31.319 --> 00:29:34.859 Yeah, you know, the it's a pulse loop. an impulse laser. 384 00:29:34.980 --> 00:29:39.059 We've got a molecular 0 G bonding feel. 385 00:29:39.779 --> 00:29:42.720 Something's happening with the transduction barrier. 386 00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:43.859 Yeah, you know. 387 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:56.759 It's, it, it, that probably appeals to a certain audience in the same way that Michael Bay and Roland Emmerick films appeal to certain audiences and if you enjoy those, I'm not, I'm not saying you're wrong, you know. 388 00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:58.319 No, but you are a bad person. 389 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:02.220 Well, look, I can enjoy a Roland Emmerick film at times. 390 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:16.440 But the point is, if you, if you want sort of meatiness and depth to a story, it has to be a story where if you, if you rip out the decoration, if you like, if you set it in a different place, it still works. 391 00:30:16.500 --> 00:30:41.099 And that, I mean, that is why, and we criticised it at the time, and I still kind of roll my eyes at the fact they did it, so many Hinchcliffe stories were ripped off from classic literature, because remove the context of those stories, and the basic idea of Frankenstein, and the basic idea of the thing from another world and the Loch Ness monster and that sort of thing, those ideas work in any setting. 392 00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:42.119 Yeah. 393 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:51.180 Because, you know, Frankenstein's about the humanity of the monster, forbidden planet, much like, much, like snake dance is about monsters from the id, that kind of thing. 394 00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:56.519 But yet, you need to have that humanity in the story, really. 395 00:30:56.579 --> 00:31:00.180 This is a story that has no villain as well, isn't it? 396 00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:06.839 But the Mara gets brought about or nearly gets brought about because each person there has a floor. 397 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:07.619 Yes. 398 00:31:07.619 --> 00:31:14.099 So you have Tegan's floor, Amber is greedy for knowledge and greedy for, you know, those artefacts. 399 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.359 Lon is arrogant and doesn't really care about anyone. 400 00:31:18.539 --> 00:31:21.119 You know, like all of those things. 401 00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:22.680 Those are all sort of minor faults. 402 00:31:22.740 --> 00:31:26.279 I think Lady Tanha's name means thirst, actually. 403 00:31:26.339 --> 00:31:31.140 All of those are just tiny little petty flaws in people's character. 404 00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:33.900 And just like the way the Mara was originally created. 405 00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:40.859 It's going to be recreated, just because the surrounding people all have these sort of moral flaws. 406 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:42.180 That's very true. 407 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:46.440 And I can see why that's appealing now as an adult. 408 00:31:46.500 --> 00:31:57.779 I still, I struggle with the fact that there isn't really, for me, a central sort of villain and if it is Tegan possessed by the Mara, she was never going to kill anyone because how could the character live with herself if she did? 409 00:31:57.839 --> 00:32:03.299 I mean, that, I can see that it's been, I mean, that's obvious. 410 00:32:04.140 --> 00:32:07.980 But it's also a weakness is the fact that nobody dies, in my opinion. 411 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:10.740 So there is this sort of strange thing, isn't it? 412 00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:22.740 And I feel the same way in some sense that what I kind of want Doctor Who to be about is, you know, like monsters invading the earth or or, you know, people getting murdered in a confined space or something like that. 413 00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:26.759 Like all of that stuff, I think, is is really central to what. 414 00:32:26.880 --> 00:32:27.720 Doctor Who is. 415 00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:36.240 And so perhaps we have a run of stories a little bit too long, but doesn't have any of that sort of stuff. 416 00:32:36.299 --> 00:32:43.740 I guess the last thing that we had was what, the visitation where it was just sort of straightforward evil aliens posing a threat. 417 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:45.119 Oh, earth shock. 418 00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:47.339 Maybe I might... 419 00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:48.240 I kind of forgotten that. 420 00:32:48.299 --> 00:32:51.119 I might feel differently if I watched this in isolation. 421 00:32:51.180 --> 00:33:06.960 Someone said to me recently, it might have been a friend of the podcast, Brian Lindsey said, but if you watch all these early Davidsons in order, what we're talking about becomes quite obvious and, well, for me, It's a problem. 422 00:33:07.019 --> 00:33:14.759 But if you just come in and watch the one story and you haven't watched the other ones around it, you might think more of the story and not, it might not be that much of a problem. 423 00:33:14.819 --> 00:33:23.220 See, I find I find the opposite thing in that I enjoy the Davidson era much more if I watch it all in context. 424 00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:39.900 I see the variations in Peter's performance because much like you, Todd, he's probably my least favourite and I know I mentioned last season that I find new things in his performance each time I watch it and watching the era through once with Rod and then watching it through again for the podcast. 425 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:41.579 I really started to see. 426 00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:43.740 Actually, there's a lot of subtlety in his performance. 427 00:33:43.799 --> 00:33:55.680 And that thing you were talking about earlier where he's so focussed on the problem he has set for himself that he doesn't notice details around him, which, in a way, those details aren't important. 428 00:33:56.279 --> 00:34:02.940 That element of the character is usually there to a greater or lesser degree. 429 00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:07.980 But I think that element of the character is very greatly dependent on whether Peter likes the script. 430 00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:20.460 I don't think I don't necessarily think it's the making up for this one, but in one of the makings of this season, Peter reckons that he plays the doctor too nicely during this season in particular. 431 00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:27.300 You know, at times I think he is too nice over this period of time, but that's not necessarily always the case. 432 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:33.780 I think he's a bit harsh on himself and it's the script and it's what characterisation actually give to his doctor. 433 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.260 I think when you get to the moment you get to warriors of deep onwards. 434 00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.340 He is so much better. 435 00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:40.079 I'm really looking forward to that. 436 00:34:40.139 --> 00:34:43.079 I'm already finding a lot to enjoy in what he's doing. 437 00:34:43.139 --> 00:34:46.440 You know, I've been critical of the whole conception of Pete's doctor. 438 00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:49.019 He's not my least favourite doctor at all. 439 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:51.119 That one's still to come. 440 00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:57.539 But the breathless thing that he does, the running, I really like him panicky. 441 00:34:57.599 --> 00:34:59.820 I really like when he's exasperated. 442 00:34:59.940 --> 00:35:06.360 I think his relationship with Tegan is terrifically fun. is sometimes he can be really charming. 443 00:35:06.420 --> 00:35:09.780 He's not seen stealing. you know what I mean? 444 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:15.719 He's not as compelling as his predecessor or even kind of his successor. 445 00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:20.460 But I think it's an acting performance that I really like. 446 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:35.639 And I think it's kind of underappreciated, just given given the context of the other 2 doctors, the 2 doctors on either side, and also just given the general low quality of what he's given to do as a script, I think. 447 00:35:35.699 --> 00:35:40.139 I agree with you on the low quality with the scripts and what he, he is elevating that. 448 00:35:40.199 --> 00:35:42.179 I don't think he's underappreciated. 449 00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:44.639 My opinion, no, it's very different to yours. 450 00:35:44.699 --> 00:35:53.699 I think he's giving, I'm getting more out of his performance, but I still think that it takes up to the 5 doctors before he really works it out. 451 00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:56.219 I'm not quite up to that yet, and I am looking forward to it. 452 00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:04.440 I have a vague memory that you're right, that he really sort of kicks into gear in season 21 and I'm just looking forward to actually seeing that happen. 453 00:36:04.500 --> 00:36:05.940 There's an energy. 454 00:36:05.940 --> 00:36:08.039 With somebody leaving. 455 00:36:08.099 --> 00:36:09.119 There's an energy. 456 00:36:09.179 --> 00:36:12.059 There's this frenetic energy that he has. 457 00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:19.440 And all those little traits that you've talked about are suddenly not under the surface or downplay, they're over the surface. 458 00:36:19.500 --> 00:36:29.400 He's using his acting performance to work out what the character's going to be because essentially he's come into it and no one has any idea of what he's going to be like. 459 00:36:29.460 --> 00:36:34.199 And you can see things that he tries in Fort a Doomsday that he never tries again. 460 00:36:34.260 --> 00:36:46.320 And then I guess all of that sort of running about being exasperated and stuff is what he ends up adopting and then he goes in and sort of properly plays that in season 21, do you think? 461 00:36:46.380 --> 00:36:48.960 It's like a clear idea of what the character is. 462 00:36:49.079 --> 00:36:51.539 And I also think the writing is there for him as well. 463 00:36:51.599 --> 00:36:54.659 Yes, yeah, the writing definitely improves next year. 464 00:36:54.719 --> 00:36:59.880 See, I think this is still broad strokes, except for Christopher Bailey. 465 00:36:59.940 --> 00:37:00.360 He's got it. 466 00:37:00.420 --> 00:37:01.440 Yeah, yeah, he's great. 467 00:37:01.500 --> 00:37:02.039 Yeah, yeah. 468 00:37:02.099 --> 00:37:03.780 Isn't isn't it funny? 469 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:12.179 Sort of, actually, I won't say this is the best story of the season, but it's not far off in this story we're talking about, the quality of the writing because we know what's coming. 470 00:37:12.539 --> 00:37:17.099 The thing is, I just want to clarify when I say he's my least favourite doctor. 471 00:37:17.159 --> 00:37:20.340 That's a bit like me saying my least favourite Avengers sidekick. 472 00:37:20.400 --> 00:37:21.539 They're all brilliant. 473 00:37:21.539 --> 00:37:24.719 And, you know, incidentally, I'm sorry, it's Mike Gambit. 474 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:27.599 Yeah, he's shockingly bad. 475 00:37:27.659 --> 00:37:30.659 Whoever let him off Metabulous 3, for God's sake. 476 00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:31.619 But that's the thing. 477 00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:32.460 He's still great. 478 00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:40.619 But, you know, I'm one of these mad people who probably prefers Tara King and Kathy Gale to end the peel. 479 00:37:40.679 --> 00:37:47.579 Oh, I can hear Steve over in Western Australia disowning me at... 480 00:37:47.579 --> 00:37:48.179 That is crazy. 481 00:37:48.659 --> 00:37:58.380 My big thing, Brendan, is that I just wish the stories that he was given in the 1st 2 series were consistently better. 482 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:10.260 Like I have episodes that I really like and then there's episodes that I don't like, or there's a through line through a story that I really like, and there's other things that I really dislike, and there's nothing thus far I can give more than 8 out of 10 to. 483 00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:10.800 That's just me. 484 00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:11.460 Yeah, yeah. 485 00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:20.460 And this gets an 8 and it's sort of like I want I want to be able to say in these 2 series, any of these stories could be in my top 20 Doctor Who's. 486 00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:23.099 And quite honestly, as I sit here now, I can't say that. 487 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:23.940 Yeah. 488 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:28.380 There's there's probably one in these 2 seasons that I could put inside my top 20. 489 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:32.699 And I think part of the problem is, you're not going to tell us what it is? 490 00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:33.360 Not yet. 491 00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:40.019 A lot of the creative decisions, there seems to be an air of it'll be all right on the night. 492 00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:41.579 And you know what? 493 00:38:41.639 --> 00:38:47.519 You might be able to manage that with one story per season, but when you've got that attitude for 6 or 7 stories. 494 00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:52.679 I think the success has become more a matter of luck than a matter of skill. 495 00:38:52.739 --> 00:39:00.780 And the only time I can really think of, oh, it'll be all right on the night has actually worked out in Doctor Who is City of Death. 496 00:39:00.840 --> 00:39:06.480 And that everyone on that just kind of goes, yeah, lightning just struck. 497 00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:11.159 You know, we just got we got the perfect cast and the perfect script and the perfect location. 498 00:39:11.219 --> 00:39:15.420 You know, I think snake dance kind of exemplifies that in the same way. 499 00:39:15.480 --> 00:39:23.880 You do have a great cast and you've got a cracking script, which probably, as much as I love it, could do with a bit of tightening. 500 00:39:23.940 --> 00:39:36.119 Well, going back to what you're saying about episode 3 where we disagree, I think if they'd said you've got 3 episodes, the doctor wouldn't have been in itself for 3 episodes and everything would have been fast forwarded, right? 501 00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:39.599 And so that's where I come from with that bit of perspective. 502 00:39:39.659 --> 00:39:50.219 So, and I think, you know, having the director they had, the writer they had and the director, she just casts it and it just sells it and that's why I generally like this. 503 00:39:50.280 --> 00:40:00.059 Yeah, I think there is a sort of strange problem, as I hinted before, at the structure which is no maltster actually really appears until the last 5 minutes of the story. 504 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:05.639 There's a lot of waiting, but the waiting is, I think, really entertaining and for the reasons you identified. 505 00:40:05.699 --> 00:40:07.440 Can we talk about the snake? 506 00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:09.599 Go ahead. 507 00:40:09.659 --> 00:40:14.579 I don't care that the snake at the end of Kinder is terrible and it is terrible. 508 00:40:14.639 --> 00:40:16.139 It's a big plastic snake. 509 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:21.900 It can see over the mirrors, so I don't know why it's affected by being trapped in a circle of mirrors. 510 00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:22.679 It can't even see them. 511 00:40:22.739 --> 00:40:27.659 It's huge and kind of silly and unconvincing, but it doesn't matter. 512 00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.619 Um, just generally because that story is quite good. 513 00:40:31.679 --> 00:40:36.300 Here, the snake, I think, is really, really surprisingly effective. 514 00:40:36.360 --> 00:40:40.019 So it doesn't for a 2nd not look like a puppet. 515 00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:44.699 You know, it's obviously a puppet, but this time it's it's glistening. 516 00:40:44.699 --> 00:40:47.760 Yeah, there's an organic quality to it. 517 00:40:47.820 --> 00:40:50.159 So it feels like it's got a mouthful of venom. 518 00:40:50.219 --> 00:40:51.840 It's got an articulated tongue. 519 00:40:51.900 --> 00:40:57.960 It just looks eviler and more frightening than the other one. 520 00:40:58.019 --> 00:40:59.639 And so I think it's really good. 521 00:40:59.699 --> 00:41:05.340 It's yet another monster that pours snot out of its head when it's killed. 522 00:41:05.400 --> 00:41:07.380 We didn't talk about Omega last week. 523 00:41:07.380 --> 00:41:09.239 Snotty McSnot faced. 524 00:41:09.300 --> 00:41:10.800 Yeah, that's 3 stories running. 525 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:14.639 Yeah, where snots come out of the alien. 526 00:41:14.699 --> 00:41:16.380 It's the BBC snort machine. 527 00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:22.260 And the fact that they dispatch the Mara and genuinely kill it and then they're out of there too. 528 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.019 There's no stupid goodbyes or anything like that. 529 00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.599 It's just Pete says the Mara has been destroyed. 530 00:41:27.659 --> 00:41:33.360 We come full circle from the beginning of the story where we had thought it destroyed, but it wasn't. 531 00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:34.260 It's still alive. 532 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.039 And Pete just very definitely says the Mara's been destroyed and then we're out. 533 00:41:38.099 --> 00:41:38.940 I think that's really good. 534 00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:45.719 The sound design of that scene with Pete phasing down the Mara with Tegan's face in the middle of it. 535 00:41:45.780 --> 00:41:50.099 That is terrifying. was terrified by that when I was 11 years old. 536 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:51.539 And the silence. 537 00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:55.320 There's a really eerie silence once the Mar has been defeated as well. 538 00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:59.699 Yeah, you know, Peter Howell doesn't go... 539 00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:02.400 There was a scene recorded of them leaving. 540 00:42:02.460 --> 00:42:11.039 Which, um, Fiona Cumming dropped mainly for timing reasons, episode 4 runs to uh, 24 and a half minutes. 541 00:42:11.099 --> 00:42:11.519 Right. 542 00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:16.619 But in that, in that scene, Yeah, it would have been a far worse ending. 543 00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.820 It's in the deleted scenes and pretty much it's a few hours later. 544 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:28.920 The whole market gathers to see the doctor, Lissa and Tegan often thank them for dealing with the Mara and kind of Lon and Amber go, oh, we were so stupid. 545 00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:29.820 Yes, you were. 546 00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:32.099 It's well performed. 547 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:33.539 They've learned a valuable less. 548 00:42:33.599 --> 00:42:34.260 Yeah, exactly. 549 00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:34.739 Exactly. 550 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:40.500 It's the cousin of the scene with Hindle and Sanders saying, thank you, sir. 551 00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:42.000 Thank you, sir, at the end. 552 00:42:42.059 --> 00:42:43.260 But it's not as good. 553 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:53.340 There is one rather lovely bit at the end where they talk about could the Mara come back and the doctor says, well, you know, it comes from your negative impulses and the fact that you don't deal with them and you don't talk about them. 554 00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:56.280 So the choice is up to you, and that's the last line. 555 00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:57.599 And that is a lovely last line. 556 00:42:57.659 --> 00:43:02.340 But the rest of the scene building up to it is just kind of Scooby-Doo. 557 00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:06.539 So kudos to Fiona coming for dropping that scene and just ending us on. 558 00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:07.380 It's weird. 559 00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:10.139 It a triumphant. a downbeat triumphant ending. 560 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:14.099 It's really raw and emotional and Janet does a great job. 561 00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:21.719 You know, she's such a long way away from the person who came into the Tardus and told us her name was Tegan all those years ago. 562 00:43:22.380 --> 00:43:28.860 It really is a joy to see her. surprised and delighted by this story. 563 00:43:28.980 --> 00:43:30.659 And you know what? 564 00:43:30.780 --> 00:43:32.699 You know how I said I don't think this is the best story of the season? 565 00:43:32.760 --> 00:43:38.400 I still think it's probably the best story so far for Davidson, for the Davidson era. 566 00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:46.019 I'm expecting it to be the best story of the season, but I haven't watched Enlightenment yet on the way through for the podcast, so we'll see. 567 00:43:46.139 --> 00:43:47.639 Interesting. 568 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:51.360 I really liked the visitation. 569 00:43:51.900 --> 00:43:54.840 After listening to your podcast. 570 00:43:54.900 --> 00:43:57.239 You did a number on Jekyll. 571 00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:04.980 But I went into the visitation with low expectations, like from the previous time I watched it. 572 00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:06.659 So I think it sort of went a bit too high. 573 00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:13.559 Like I gave out 8.5 , but I now pegged it back to 8 and as Nathan said, it's just tumourous. 574 00:44:13.619 --> 00:44:17.400 So I actually think I prefer to watch this than that. 575 00:44:17.460 --> 00:44:20.760 So this is my favourite Davidson thus far.. 576 00:44:41.400 --> 00:44:48.420 Well, as we take off from the Noosa, we'll be back with our podcast on Morden Undead. 577 00:44:48.539 --> 00:44:56.039 Until then, you can find us on Flightthrough Entirety.sexy, Flight Through Entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter. 578 00:44:56.099 --> 00:45:03.420 Over on Bondfinger, we have various Roger Moore commentaries up to and including Moon Ray car. 579 00:45:03.480 --> 00:45:08.699 That's on bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and bondfinger cast on Twitter. 580 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:15.539 And over on YouTube, Doctor Who in 10 seconds is still up to season six, but season 7 is coming out. next week. 581 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:21.119 So until next time, may none of your snakes die dribbling snort out of their eyeballs. 582 00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:22.679 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 583 00:45:22.739 --> 00:45:23.219 Good night. 584 00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:24.900 See you later, Mara. 585 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.400 That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, and Brendan Jones. 586 00:45:35.460 --> 00:45:37.559 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 587 00:45:37.619 --> 00:45:43.320 This episode, Tiny Little Petty Floors, was recorded on July 24th, 2016. 588 00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:49.739 The next episode will be released on August 21st, offering temptation in fear, despair and greed. 589 00:45:49.800 --> 00:45:51.539 Is this Doctor Who or Big Brother? 590 00:45:59.219 --> 00:46:01.380 We're good burp. 591 00:46:04.440 --> 00:46:05.099 Oh, dear. 592 00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.179 Sorry, I've been drinking soda water. 593 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:10.559 I wasn't expecting that. 594 00:46:10.619 --> 00:46:12.000 That's the marrow. 595 00:46:12.059 --> 00:46:13.500 Shaming people.