Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety
the only Doctor Who podcast you entirely understand, a teacher
having a nervous breakdown.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan And I'm Todd.
And uh, we're back to school now for Modron Undead.
So, Peter Grimwade apparently begged and pleaded with the script
editor, Eric Saywood, to have a second chance after last year's
time flight.
Well, I'm glad he did get a second chance because this is so much
better than that.
Oh, yes.
And of course, the wonderful director assigned to direct this is
the ever talented Mr. Peter Moffat, who would just get better and
better as the series continues.
So I think in spite of a few people's names, I think there's
actually, I quite like this.
I would like to remove any suspense for our long-term listeners
now who may recall that for ever since stated decay.
I've been saying Peter Moffat is very good up until a point where
he kind of retires from directing mid-story.
It's this one.
And I would like to cite the exact scene where I think he retires
from directing.
I believe it's episode 3 where the 2 brigadiers are wandering
around the ship, and one wanders down a corridor towards the
camera, and the other one wanders through the back of shot, and I
think Peter Moffatt has just gone, oh, you know what?
I just can't be bothered anymore, and it's just shot complete
proscenium arch.
You know, we've got this beautiful set.
And until now, he, you know, he's been shooting at sort of not
right angles, he's been shooting at odd angles and shooting into
corners and that sort of thing.
Not this 2 brigadier stuff.
Screw this.
I'm just pointing the cameras and off we go.
And after this, his direction becomes a lot more stolid.
So mystery over.
My George has hit the floor.
Like, I mean, I never expected it was this story.
I didn't, for some reason, I thought it might have been Sarah Jane
going down a small hill, somebody tripping over.
Well, you see that's the same story.
He never comes back to his former glory after this moment.
He used to be quite good at stuff on location in particular, and
he directed it quite a bit of survivors, which was shot on obi
video and was kind of stylish.
The location stuff here is lovely and we've got that beautiful
tracking shot at the beginning with the school in the distance
back up to the obelisk, so you know it becomes important later
on.
The location stuff is absolutely beautiful, which, you know, given
that it's typical Doctor Who weather in that it's completely
cloudy outside in both time periods is a challenge.
But no, I've got no problem with the location stuff.
I love the location stuff here.
That big corridor, the green corridor coming back up to the school
which actually looks like it would take a good 25 minutes to get
up there.
And it really opens up this story.
I find the last 2 episodes set in these sterile corridors does my
heading after the last 2 weeks where I've had corridors.
I mean, it looks beautiful.
It is so beautiful.
It's so deco.
Those corridors just look and they're so detailed and incredibly
beautiful.
I think it's a great bit of set design.
I'm not tonight, but I just does my head in.
I'm just there going, get me out of these corridors.
Just get me out of here, please.
I think episode 3 is a particularly bad example of it, which is
just people wandering through corridors for 25 minutes.
But let's jump back to the beginning of this story.
And we're on location.
We've got young men in shorts, running.
Actually, I think they do really...
Actually, I think they do quite well with the casting of the young
guys at this college to try and make them appear almost as old as
Mark Stritson.
They Because I think he does look older.
He's about 22 at this point, I think.
And his star was rising, of course.
He's just been on, I think it was Angels, which was the big kind
of casualty or doctors of its day, like the big sort of hospital
drama.
And he had a choice.
He had a choice between going regular on that because he was a
supporting cast member and the young male lead, had had to leave
the show.
I think it I think it was some kind of personal problem.
I can't remember exactly what it was.
And so angels offered him full time, but they're like, oh, you
know, we won't be able to get you to sign a contract for a few
months, but you'll, you know, you'll be working full time.
Whereas, yeah, he or had also heard Doctor Who were looking for a
new lead actor, and he apparently actually went in to see JNT
because, you know, BBC TV sent, he just kind of knocked on the
door and he said, I hear you're looking for a new lead.
I do have this offer over Angels, but I think this might be more
interesting if I could read for you.
And apparently JNT was very impressed by his forthrightness.
You know, it didn't, I don't think, went through the usual channel
of an agent calling.
It was just, look, I'm here.
I've heard it's on offer.
I'm going to put myself forward because it sounds like a more
interesting job and they're offering me this other job.
I'm not really enjoying it as much.
What do you think?
So yeah, that's how Mark Strickson came to be.
Thank goodness, because we've now got the strongest Doctor Who
cast to the 1980s as far as I'm concerned.
These 4 regulars are the strongest, not to say that they're going
to get the material that will live up to that benchmark at all at
the one time, but I think they're the strongest cars to the 80s.
Do you know, I think that Sarah Sutton is really, really terrific
but I'm going to be happier when she leaves just because now we
just have 3 leads and they can manage it and we're not going to be
constantly exasperated by the sidelining of NISA.
Yeah.
And something I realised we didn't mention last week.
And I'm sure someone on Twitter has picked us up for this.
We didn't mention Mrs. New Frock last week.
Her sort of fantails rapper, candy floss.
Oh, Todd, Todd...
Todd mentioned it.
He wasn't a fan.
But she's got a new outfit this week.
Yes, much better.
Matching Eyeshadow as well.
Yes.
It's a much better outfit this week Last week thing looked like
she was in an Anne Getty's postcard.
You know how they will have bows on their heads and that sort of
thing, but it was just the biggest bow ever.
Do you remember the Virgin Missing Adventures when they were 1st
released in the 1990s?
The very 1st one was called Goth Opera by Paul Cornell, and it had
a picture of Nissa in that outfit, but she turned into a vampire
and she had like blood.
She'd vomited blood all over the outfit and it was so horrific.
I think W.H.
Smith said that they wouldn't carry it in their store.
And so all of those blue stripes and stuff had to be kind of wiped
off it along with the bloodstains.
Yeah, it became a white blouse with just a couple of droplets on
there.
Yeah.
But it's basically that outfit from last time.
This one's a lot better.
Oh yeah, it is a much better outfit for Sarah Sutton as an actor.
And it is a much better, I think, character choice for Nissa.
Maybe last week it was meant to be a kind of joke if she comes
from this repressed society and her 1st attempt to...
You've stolen my notes. stolen my notes, but continue.
You know, her 1st attempt to dress more interestingly, puts her in
this absolutely horrid frock.
And the weird thing was, like, that was the new costume for her
and it was made and everything.
And then all of a sudden in modern undead.
She appears in this other thing instead after it's only been in
there for one story.
But there was a big press call in Amsterdam and they brought that
new party frock, if you like, over.
I think it was kind of used in the studio and they went, oh dear
God, what have we done?
Get this.
And you don't often put these 2 words together, but get this nice
gray mini dress.
You know, the idea of something that is nice and gray, go, gray
that's not very interesting.
But the gray with the yellow trim.
It looks great.
And there is something scientific and clinical about it.
It's kind of like a lab tunic.
But you wanted to be a bit aristocratic as well, and I think it
pulls that off too.
Yeah, yeah.
It's strange how it's such a simple outfit, but it's so
effective.
So Doctor Who Frock cast will be back next week.
Nissa, in this story, I do think it's sidelined.
Obviously, we've got a new... so unusual.
I said that like, it was like...
Well, unusual.
But okay.
Yes, again.
You know?
Teging is the one that gets to explore the world of 1977.
We've got the new companion coming in and she just gets left in
the Tartars at crucial times.
She's a perfectly reasonable character, but, as you said, we're
happier once there's 2 companions.
And she's hearing this story, but again, you know, she's
sidelined.
She gets one really great moment in this story.
It's otherwise a bit of a silly scene where, you know, the doctor
and Turlo go off to repair the trans mat and Tegan and Nissa have
to wait in the TARDIS and they go and get chairs.
It just looks kind of silly.
It's like they've gone.
It's been a very long day.
Get us some chairs.
But the bit I love in that is when Tegan's saying, I don't trust
Turlow.
Why has he just stepped into this transmat caps?
you'll No one does that, and Nissa just says, the way you did into
the Tartis on the Barnet bypass.
And it's just like, ooh.
That was great.
It's a great line.
Really is.
It's a great line, and it's so, like, Sarah just delivers it so
well in that, you know, it's not a total horrible mean girls, you
can't sit with a slide.
But at the same time, it's like, oh, Tegan, come off it.
Okay, yeah, no one's stupid enough to step into a strange object.
Oh, yeah, you just walk into this glistening white control room
and go, my name's Tegan Chevanka.
Yeah whatever.
How many times can we mention that on the podcast?
Let's see.
So, of course, Cello's front and centre right from the beginning
with the car that he borrows.
I mean, get that wonderful music.
That's ridiculous.
When I ride my bike to work, I have that music going in my head
sometimes.
And then he crashes off camera so that we don't have to pay for
it.
And then there's an awful, awful visual effect.
It's like the BBC micro, isn't it?
doing a sort of crappy screensaver of some kind.
And one of this week's 20th anniversary returning elements of the
show appears.
A vulture with a bird on his head.
Look, if you've got the chance to cast Valentine dial as a villain
then go ahead.
I mean, he is terrifically good.
He is great.
And there was a sense I felt at the time that the Black Guardian
thing had been thrown away, you know, the way the doctor dealt
with the Black Guardian was the randomiser, which he then just got
bored with and stopped using.
So it was sort of a hanging thread.
But the Black Guardian wasn't a very successful element of the key
to time series.
Nathan, how many minutes did he actually appear in the key to
time?
That's right, for like 3 or something at the end of episode 6 of
whatever the hell that story was called.
So did the new audience even know who he is?
Yeah.
Well, the thing is, unlike Omega earlier on, they actually
reestablish the Black Guardian's character here and who he is and
what he wants.
Exactly, you know.
So it's a bit more of a successful return than Omega.
I'd like to take this opportunity with that crappy vortex effect
to talk about, just briefly, the DVD edition of this story, which
much like Terminus and Enlightenment, has updated computer
generated effects on which a friend of the podcast, Aaron J.
Climus, was a rotoscoper.
Oh, yep, Aaron's job.
So, for instance, on that swirly background, et cetera, et cetera
was to frame by frame, draw an outline around the Black Guardian
and Turlow, so the background could be replaced.
Is it a better background?
It's slightly better.
So it uses the same colour scheme, but it's more sort of cloudy
and vortex.
And also Turlow appears with an actual effect rather than just to
fade in.
But I remember Aaron saying at the time, Yeah, you think 2 people
just standing looking at a camera don't move very much.
They move a lot, and one of them has a bird on his head.
I mean, what is that?
What is with that?
The decisions.
Just stupid.
Yeah, that's a stupid costume.
Look, the rest of the costume's okay, but the bird on his head is
really ridiculous.
And the only person with a bird on their head who looks more
ridiculous than Valentine Dial is Cyril Luckam when he turns up in
Enlightenment with that seagull head poking out of his wig.
And he was so great in the Remos operation.
I mean, he was so terrific because he was like, um, horrible
colonial guy, you know, sitting at an unconvincing plantation
somewhere drinking a drink and not really caring about anything
and being slightly morally ambiguous.
The fun thing about the guardians was, you know, they were
responsible for the technology that included Princess Astra as a
component.
They weren't, it's not the unambiguously good guy and the
unambiguously bad guy despite their names.
And that's lampshaded at the end of the Armageddon fact, you know
what if it's, what if I was colourblind?
What if the Black Guardian was really the White Guardian?
Here, they're a stupid idea.
But fortunately, Valentine Dial's given the job of kind of
tempting and seducing Turlough.
So he has a fun thing to do, and he does it terrifically well in
this story.
Yeah, yeah.
This is all I'm up to.
I've never seen a Doctor Who story after this.
Spoiler alert, people.
It's gonna play out and it's gonna get tired very, very quickly
let's just focus on how good this is for now Because we're not
going to be able to do that next week.
But, you know, it's, you know, it's obviously submachinery quickly
that, you know, Turlo has got a mission to kill the doctor.
So it's gonna keep us, well, entertained for 4 episodes, possibly.
And is it established this early that he's not from Earth?
Yeah, yeah.
He says he hates her.
That's a little bit confusing, I think.
I think there's something about his look too, that reinforces
that.
They gel his eyebrows.
Yeah, the eyebrows.
They sort of spike them up.
So we've got the Black Guardian.
We've got cello who could be not from earth at this and we do cut
back to the car crash and there's an old recurring friend
investigating his car and then, of course, is Nick Courtney as the
brigadier.
Hooray.
Oh, I just get this wonderful sense of joy and anticipation like I
did with Arc of Infinity, you know, every time, like, you know
Leila's mentioned or something like that.
And here it's the brigadier and it's like, yes.
Yeah.
Except he's really obnoxious. horrible.
No, you see, I like that because we find out later that he's lost
his memory of the doctor.
Oh, yeah.
I think there's a definite arc and the idea is the brigadier has
forgotten who he was and has forgotten what he was like as the
brigadier, but this is about recovering that and he's back to our
old friend, the brigadier.
And he gradually 83 brigadier.
Gradually gets better and better.
But for instance, he body shames Ibbots and, you know, says how
physically disgusting Ibotsson is, which is terribly unfair
because I think he's rather sweet.
Yeah, yeah.
He asks the headmaster whether he's thrashed Turlow.
You know, like he's awful.
See, I think the implication is because he's forgotten the doctor
you know, he remembers his army service.
He remembers unit, but he's forgotten the doctor.
The doctor made him a better person because the doctor made him a
more open minded person.
In fact, in fact, the brigadier was...
I mean, Colonel Lethbridge Stewart was unpleasant and sometimes a
panicky idiot, wasn't he?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, you know, then from the invasion in season seven, he's still
quite stolid and then season 890 loosens up a bit and by Planet of
the Spiders, he's making jokes about ASP.
Yeah, he's a swinger.
It's not always super effective.
Like, you know, we get bloody kernel blimp in the 3 doctors, but I
think that's a subtle script point which works.
And to be honest, I think it may have come from Nicholas Courtney
because of course he thought a great deal about the brigadier
character, because they kept asking him back.
And I think Nicholas Courtney would have gone, well, hold on.
If the brig doesn't remember the doctor, he's going to be exactly
like he was 20 years ago.
That's a really good point. really thought about that.
Like as I was watching this and it's going, oh, he's a bit too
harsh and I don't like it and that sort of thing.
And the fact that, you know, he has this memory block.
I think, look, I think you both made a really good point there.
But I just don't think it's maybe it's a bit too subtle for me.
I don't know.
The problem I have with all of this is the fact that Obviously
we've discussed the whole timeline continuity thing previously, and
I'm fine with the fact that it's 77 and 83.
I don't have a problem with that.
But it's 6 years of not talking to anybody related to unit.
I've tried to justify that in mind.
I thought maybe the Black Guardian is interfering there, but then
he wants to keep the 2 brigadiers apart later on.
So maybe it's the White Guardians, you know, I don't buy it.
Do either of you have a thought on that, Brendan?
It is strange because he talks about what Harry and Benton are up
to.
So clearly he's had some kind of contact with them.
I think he said he, you know, he hasn't known from Benton since
1979, but that's still after the initial shock.
Maybe it is literally he has to see the doctor because even when
he sees the doctor at first.
There's nothing until the doctor really starts putting in a
assault on.
Like, oh, you know, what about my companions?
What about such and such?
What about the yeti?
What about blah, blah, blah?
So you could almost accept that Harry and Benton don't call the
brigadier and say, hey, remember those Zygons, but it is, it is a
bit of a strange emphasis.
But they're not going to do that, you know?
They would be talking. it would be much more casual.
Like, have you seen the doctor or something like that?
Like, you know, I just...
Yeah, he can't even remember the doctor or the Tartars.
It just does not sit well with me.
It doesn't stop my enjoyment and story, but it's just a niggling
thing that just annoys me.
It's like, it's like when you have old school friends or uni
friends and then you see them every 6 months and then it becomes
every 12 months.
And then it's, I haven't called them, should I call them or not
sort of scenarios?
So it sort of just gets further and further away.
It had never actually occurred to me to wonder, do you know what I
mean?
And I guess because there's kind of a lack of realism about the
whole situation anyway, that that sort of inconsistency didn't
really present itself to me.
So I wasn't wondering, you know, is he still socialising with
these people or whatever, how does that work?
But I get your point.
It does seem strange once you kind of push against it.
What do you think of the montage where Pete wanders around
reminding him of his past adventures and then we cut to the stuff
in black and white.
For a fan?
That's fantastic.
They name check everything that you'd want them to check like all
these old companions.
I was literally doing a ticket box list because I thought, oh
they're going to forget Liz or, you know, but they don't.
And so for me, that's a spidey, spidey sense tingling thing
again.
And the clips are great.
There's one thing I don't like, and that's the mini strokes he has
as he's sitting in the chair just before he says doctor.
I just think that's so.
I don't think he plays distressed very well.
I mean, he's never really been distressed as the brigadier since
Web of Fear.
He was always, you know, defined by being sort of stolid and
unflappable and stuff.
So to see, like, I don't think Nick really nails the acting there
either.
But I think if you had a better director might be able to get
more.
But I like those flashbacks and I was surprised because, you know
the cybermen flashbacks where they just got out there, BBC
videotapes and showed the greatest cyber hits.
You know, that was stupid.
This at least kind of works in context.
And at this point, you're not aware that he's going to do it again
next year for like our annual crappy flashback clip collection.
But I like the music a lot and I think, you know, he kind of
deserves it a bit.
It's a 20th anniversary.
Yeah, and I think that's great.
Originally this script, they considered having in Chesterton, is
that correct?
Yeah, it was written for Ian and William Russell was unavailable
doing theatre, I think.
They then approached Ian Marta to reprise Harry and then and in
Marta wasn't available.
And then they went, well, hold on, if we're going back to the unit
days, let's ask Nick.
But the fact that he's the 3rd choice concerns me.
It concerns me in this fact, and this is back to sort of the arc
infinity thing we were talking about a few weeks ago, is that if
you hadn't appeared here, in the 5 doctors, his relationship with
Tegan and the doctor is a lovely, lovely moment.
And if you look at Sarah's relationship with the 5th doctor, it's
just like, well, who's this?
There's nothing.
Whereas the fact that he's in here, adds to that later on.
It's one of these things that I was talking back in season 18
about these happy accidents that John Nathan Turner has in terms
of scripting where it works out in the end and it's going to start
not working out in the end in 18 months time with various
decisions that are made.
But it's a fluke.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
A particularly lovely moment for me in that scene is the matchup
they do of the brig looking around the 3 doctors console room and
then you fade back to him in the chair and it's the same
expression.
It's the same position.
You know, well done, Peter Moffatt there and the vision mixer
forgetting that right.
But 10 years later, you see him 10 years old.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
That is when to me, his character comes back and he's not this
blustery, you know, did you give him a thrashing?
Like his face just relaxes in his turn, says, oh, talk to you, I've
done it again.
And to be honest, I don't even think that reaction would have
worked with William Russell.
You have to have someone who has always been that unflappable.
It might have worked with Ian Marta because like Ian Marta's
reaction to Kelman being exploded and crushed by rocks is, oh, I'm
terrible with names.
Sorry.
You know, that's the thing.
It works with Nick because Nick's whole character is just, oh
that's a giant blanc mange with a ray gun.
Oh, I should shoot that with a rifle, I think.
I think he does a great performance as both brigadiers.
Yeah, yeah.
And they make him look very convincing as the younger one.
Yeah.
In fact, he's actually maybe looking a bit too much younger.
Do you know what I mean?
They really go all out on the hair dye, I think.
I also think the decision to have him not have his moustache is a
great one.
That's great.
It does age him very differently.
It's a great contrast.
And look, besides that one moment, sitting in the chair that I
don't like.
I think Nick does a great performance in this, and it's really
lovely to have him back in the show for this story.
Do you think if they'd had Ian Chesterton back, right, and he was
teaching at this school, would we have had to have some just
horrific, horrific line explaining why he wasn't married to
Barbara anymore that would have upset me enormously?
You know what?
I would hope that they would just do a line of, oh, you know, she's
visiting her mother.
Yeah.
She's visiting about. not going to believe you're here.
As opposed to making Sergeant Benton a used car salesman, which I
never felt that was where the character would go.
Yeah, yeah.
And it was a very nice moment.
Oh, you know, Harry's doing something top secret at Port and Downs
which Ian Marty then took as a cue to write a whole novel about in
Harry Sullivan's war.
Is that the one where he develops an anti-Zygon poison?
Yeah, I think.
Oh, well, yeah, that happened in the new series.
Oh, of course that's in the Zion Invasion.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. been developed by Harry. which, you know
seems a bit odd, but...
He would never develop anything genocidal.
He's a sweetie.
Something I've heard said about this story, and I can't quote who
it was because I think it was on a forum somewhere.
So if this is your idea and you're listening, thank you very
much.
The whole thing with, you know, the brigadier, now being a teacher
and having had his breakdown and benton offselling used cars, it's
like there's a pattern in this season of the end of dreams.
Omega fails to come back and the Mara, who's a dream creature is
killed and the brigadier, who, you know, was reliable and
unflappable, has had this mental shock.
And it's kind of like, you know what?
Yeah, that's really interesting dramatically.
Is that the theme you want running through your celebratory 20th
year is the question.
I don't think they thought that much about it.
I think it's just an accident of the story writing.
I don't think anybody sat down and said this is what we're going
to do at all.
The theme of the celebratory year is how important it is to the
quality of a television program to have an imaginative, competent
script editor.
More on that later kids.
Yeah, yeah, they were still they were still assembling the
committee to write that report.
Okay, so we're in this school and we get to see the headmaster and
the matron and hippo.
The headmaster is, of course, the original Barusa from the Deadly
Assassin.
No.
Yes, it's John Arthur.
Oh my goodness.
And the matron is the voice of the quarks.
Sheila Gill.
She's shockingly bad.
I'm like, watch you to get back into a band.
But the headmaster, like, you know, that conversation with Turlo
when he's in the bed, like, and it's really the black guard.
And I love that conversation.
I just like the way it sort of turns, you think, why is Turner
having a conversation about this with the head, oh?
Hey, yeah, yeah.
That's a really good use of the Black Guardian.
It tells you the Black Guardian can be anyone.
I think Turlo is instantly pretty good as well.
We've talked a little bit about his look, but his performance is
really great and he's not afraid of kind of going over the top as
well, as we'll see, you know, next year, obviously.
But even here when he's sort of selling the sort of distress, the
not wanting to be under the Black Guardians thrall, you know, his
frustration and stuff and fear.
He does a really great job.
But he also does a great job when he's 1st introduced as being
that sort of languid, arrogant, posh, dismissive, duplicitous, sort
of that scene where he tells hippo that he took the fall.
He's wonderful.
He's so horrible.
And so it's kind of nice to have someone who is unscrupulous and
selfish.
And yet likeable.
Yeah, you know, you like him.
And for me anyway, they're trying to repair the damage of season
19 of having 3 characters who, through no fault of the actors, were
just kind of played as a bit wet, you know, and even when they had
disagreements.
It's like, oh, no, you're only a girl.
Oh, am I only a girl?
Well, I can do science things.
Yeah, well, I can do so.
It's like, oh, who the hell cares?
Whereas here, you know, you don't get Tegan saying to Turlo, I
don't believe you.
You get it in acting.
You know, she's standing off to the side and just she's got her
arms folded and she's looking down her nose and that's an
achievement when you're doing it to someone taller than you.
She's not happy.
It's interesting.
Both girls are highly suspicious of him.
But particularly, Tegan.
But she's also hardly suspicious of chameleon. something that you
don't know about that's coming up.
It's essentially anybody new into the Tartars don't come into my
time.
This is mine.
But he is great throughout this.
And he sells the conflict between, you know, he wants to get off
this planet.
He made this deal with having to kill the doctor with not wanting
to kill the doctor.
What's he going to do?
And I just think Mark is great throughout this entire story.
When people sum up Turlow, they kind of talk about, you know, he's
a coward, and yeah, he's always running away from danger, but he's
not a coward in the same way, say Villa is from Blake 7.
Yeah.
He is he's a practical coward in that, you know, as we'll later
find out he has a good reason to be running away from violence.
But he will always articulate.
This is why I'm running away.
I'm running away because this is a dangerous situation and when he
wants to break his agreement with the Black Guardian, he's saying
but this guy isn't evil.
Yeah.
He already has moral qualms about it in that discussion with the
headmaster, but his main thing is the doctor is not evil, you
know.
And so he's got this pragmatism to him.
Which is, It's a refreshing depth to the character.
And I would argue we haven't had this kind of depth to a character
since Louise Jameson as Leila.
Yeah, and what will happen is what always happens to these high
concept characters that all just becomes a lot less important as
time goes on.
You know, he is very well drawn.
And the fun thing is that even though he's established as a thief
and a manipulator and all of those sorts of things, he still has
those moral qualms that he mentioned, he still recognises the
doctor's a good man.
When he raises that rock, to bash the doctor.
Yeah, that's a bit crummy.
Isn't that a cliffhanger?
Yeah, it's a cliffhanger, so what?
And I like it.
Yeah, me too, right?
And the thing explodes.
Fortunately someone doesn't come in and say, no, stop.
Well, the machine says no.
He's thrown over backwards, but yeah, Jeopardy with the doctor is
never that convincing, but, you know, here you actually believe
the doctor could be, at least I'm not going to say he's killed, but
you know, given a blow to the head at the very least, but of
course...
I just think that's like, he would have made such a mess of his
uniform and stuff.
I guess he would have been transported off the planet if he'd
managed to do it successfully.
Reminds me of that line from Mum.
Oh, I think it might be time to the doctor where Clara says, I
will slap you so hard you regenerate.
Now, of course, the tarnest you get to investigate the Mary
Celeste.
In space?
In space for a bit during this episode.
Don't they find the capsule quite quickly as well?
Don't transmit or is that in episode two?
I'm getting a bit confused.
But they go up there and I need to mention that guitar riff that
the, is it Peter?
Who's doing the music?
It's Patty, it's Patty.
The guitar?
when the ship's coming towards the Tartars?
Down in.
It's great, isn't it?
It's a really, really good score.
It's a bit repetitive, I have to say, but it has a really clear
theme for the temptation of Turlow, which I think works really
well.
And the music is really terrifically good.
Oh, I'm glad it's Patty Kings and I love Patty King.
They find the transmit capsule.
And it's very big on the inside.
It's bigger than what the capsule.
Oh, it's dimensionally transcendental.
You know, I explained that to you with those 2 boxes that one time
Todd. got that explanation.
No explanation, I understand.
Yeah, well, you know, they stole tech from the Time Lord, so why
not dimensional transcendentalism?
I love the inside of the capsule.
I think it's my favourite set, even better than the ship set with
all those diamonds and what have you.
That whole design, I just think, is really, really terrific.
But I think this is a little bit where the story falls apart or
doesn't fall apart as such, but it's different from what Doctor
Who normally does.
This story has a bunch of things to do.
It's got to introduce the new companion.
It's got to bring back the brigadier.
Maybe unintentionally, it's laying the groundwork for the 5
doctors, and it wants to do a sort of time thing.
But there's not a lot of forward momentum.
You know, things just happen.
And episode 3 in particular, very much is just a whole bunch of
different people wandering around in different groups around those
corridors.
It is looser and less plotty.
But the one big exception is episode two.
And I just think what they do in episode 2 is something that
you'll be astonished to learn Doctor Who has never done this
before, even though it will go on to do it later.
And that's the 7783 thing.
That is an extraordinary sequence, and I just adore the whole
thing, as one is going on in one time, it's it's going on in the
other time, and the intercutting between it and the scripting of
that, you know, Peter Grimwade is really making up for the losses
of several weeks ago in that entire sequence.
I think it's lovely that the Tegan and the brigadier sort of had
that moment.
Yeah, yeah, in fact, they have a great dynamic.
They love them together.
But the moment that 83 brigadier reveals that he knew someone
called Tegan once is so great, and I think we get that before we
get to see them meet.
Is that right?
Before we get.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, it's just before.
So what happens is the doctor mentioned, oh, you know, I travel
with Tegan in this.
Oh, I knew what Tegan was.
Oh, no, different Tegan. you know, this is a different time zone
you know, yeah.
Australian girl.
Strong accent.
Then the doctor's like, what?
And then I think the very next scene is when Tegan runs up to the
cottage and says, excuse me.
And like those things are not flashbacks because they are
happening at the same time, even though one's in 77 and one's in
83.
They're at the same point in the story, so they're not
flashbacks.
But on another level, they tell us what the brigadier is telling
the doctor.
So when we can't back from a scene in 1977 back to 83, the doctor
has just learned the information that we learned by watching that
scene in 77.
Yeah, so well done.
Yeah, it is incredibly well done.
And I love that it's Tegan who figures out they're in the wrong
time zone.
It's not a matter of seeing a newspaper or something like that.
It's a matter of someone talking about the silver jubilee and she
remembers that was 1977.
For me, it's one of these, again, it points to the fact that in a
Peter Davidson story.
You have an episode that I really adore.
And then I have an episode that follows it that I don't really
like as much.
Yeah.
I think it's just crazy that Tegan and Nissa find this person in
their underwear in the capsule and they drag him back to the
Tatars and Tegan just assumes that it's the doctor.
Like Niss is about to go, uh, uh, is she blind?
Does she need glasses?
Like, how can this be the doctor?
They do mention that they think he could have regenerated?
I know.
Yeah, I think it's a very interesting concept.
And I also love that I'm pretty sure it's the 2nd last scene in
episode 2 where the doctor and the brigadier go, but if I'm not in
that capsule, who did they drag into the TARDIS?
And then you come back and you've got David Collings as Morden and
he turns around and his head's open.
We get another NISA scream, which is an excellent scream.
And the spaghetti moves.
Yeah, it's pulsing.
I think it's a little bit too horrific, actually.
Uh, you know, like I think it's maybe a bit too much.
Do you think so?
The spaghetti heads freaked me out like as a kid and I love the
fact they put him in the Tom coat.
And of course, for the point of the story, Tegan has to make that
assumption that it's the doctor and that sort of thing for all
that to work.
And I think that's really good.
But he turns around and it's David Collings and I just go, oh
yeah.
I remember you don't like him.
I don't like him.
I hated him in robots of death.
And it's like, he does a good job.
I'm not saying he doesn't.
I'm not saying he's not, but I just...
You've got that emotional.
I've got that emotion reaction to it And so when Moden drags
himself around the ship and talks to his brothers and nobody
listens and he's got to drag himself, it's a black mark for me.
And it is badding in a way because it's like, why don't they come
out and help him?
He's done his job.
He's brought back help?
And they're just sitting in their little room until Turlow presses
a...
I don't know.
It does give me the irrits because like this would have happened
before. like the fact that he's back on the ship at any other
time.
You know, maybe there's something that says when he gets back into
the regeneration room, that sends them the signal, but I just sit
there going, oh, really?
Like, you know?
You know, if that were the case, why didn't he just go straight
there?
As much as I dislike David Collins as an actor, I really like his
pleading with the Nyssa and Tegan in the brigadier that he is
actually the doctor and for their help and that sort of thing.
Do you like that or not?
I do think that that is a weird element, that thing where everyone
just automatically assumes that Morden's the dot.
And no one asks him a question, like what's the Pharos Project or
who's your best friend on Lagopolis or anything.
They do try to do that and he kind of deflects them with, you know
I mean, a lot of pain.
Yeah, it's kind of like Tegan and this are both completely believe
it from the off.
Nissa keeps believing it.
Tegan becomes sceptical and the brig is kind of in the middle
going, well, look, maybe he isn't, but can we take that risk?
In fact, one of Tegan's best moments in this whole story is when
she refuses to open the door to let Morden out into the ship and
she might have overplayed it in previous stories or earlier on in
her run.
But she doesn't do that at all here.
She's just very resolute and very steadfast without being sort of
particularly obnoxious.
I also like how she calls the brigadier a chauvinist, which I just
think I feel terrific.
And there's going to be elements of that with Ace and the
Brigadier in Battlefield, but it is just a kind of nice nod to how
the world has changed around the program in the last 10 years.
And what's really good about that is it successfully makes the
point that, yeah, the brigadier is being dismissive of them
because they're women and that's not right and they are capable.
But at the same time, it doesn't change his character.
It's something naturally that the character was there and they
don't go, oh, well, we shouldn't do that now.
It's like, well, no, this is what the character was like.
And yes, if you put the character in a modern setting, have the
other characters comment on that morality and that idea.
And I think it's actually more successful when they do it in
battlefield, because both Ace and Bambera in battlefield, when we
get there, by the end, they appreciate the brig and the brig
appreciates them and, you know.
There's not quite so much of an arc.
There's warmth and chemistry between the characters and stuff, but
there's not that much sort of intentional...
Going back a little tiny bit in the story.
Or actually, no, it could be.
No, it is contemporaneous when they're like, oh, you know, we
can't get back to the ship.
And the Briggs like, oh, I have a homing device.
Tegan gave it to me.
So we get a nice time loop kind of thing there.
And so they get the homing device that Tegan gave to the
brigadier.
Yes.
Isn't that great that it just happens to fit?
Gallifran technology?
It's so weird. isn't it?
Because that thing never has an origin, does it?
The timing device.
Oh, um, Tegan takes it out of the Tartars.
Tegan takes out of the TARDIS, but then what happens from then on
it just loops around and around.
Well, Tegan takes it out of the TARDIS, gives it to the brigadier
and then, yeah, it would come back to the TARDIS.
So it's kind of like for the TARDIS, it's been half an hour for
the homing device.
It's been away 6 years. a round trip.
So it's not exactly a time loop or a predestination paradox or
anything like that.
Because so when the brigadier says, oh, I've got a Tartar timing
device and we kind of go, wait, why the hell would you have a
Tartar timing device?
But then we see...
Yeah.
And that's why they're able to lock onto the TARDS because Nissa
takes out and gives it to Tegan saying, we don't know the area and
you need to be quick.
Right.
She takes it down and she gives it to the breeder saying, oh, you
know, it's one of the doctor's gizmos and he pockets it.
The other part of that scene I really love is the doctor finding
Turlow's crystal and just giving it back to him and saying, you
drop this.
The doctor knows that something is going on with him.
And Tegan kind of treats the doctor like, oh, you know, I don't
trust him, but the doctor just plays it close to his chest and
he's like, no, I know there's something.
And that is so important because when Colin Baker comes around in
a year and a half .
And again, with Sylvester McCoy, Andrew Cartmel kind of raises the
point that, you know, the doctor had become the universe's
whipping boy and things just happen to him and he doesn't have any
foreknowledge and he doesn't think ahead.
This is clearly the doctor, and this is a doctor who constantly
gets locked up and doesn't think ahead.
This is clearly him going, there's something going on here.
I'm aware there's something going on.
You now know I've got my eye on you, Turlow.
But I'm gonna give you the chance.
And that element of the characterisation between them is the most
successful element of this trilogy stories, and I'll talk about
that more in the next 2 stories.
Okay, that's fine.
I understand where you're coming from.
I don't think it's successfully resolved at the end of the trilogy
but we'll talk about that when we get to it.
Can we talk about the scientific gobbledygook?
Yeah.
It's really bad.
This story, isn't it?
I can't even say it. limitation effect.
But there's a lot of other stuff as well.
Have you got notes?
I've only got notes.
There's lots of scientific mumbo jumbo part three.
And that, and I mentioned that effect and it's like, it'll short
out the time differential and there's the warper lips and there's
all these different names of machines.
Oh, come on.
Yep, just referring to the Doctor Who discontinuity guide now.
There's something about instability, known stability in 1983.
I don't know.
I've written down that line. don't know why.
So referring to the Doctor Who discontinuity guide for
Technobabble, we have, yep, a warp lips.
Could it have been affected by a tangential deviation coming out
of the water lips, not with the dead reckoning alignment in the
coordinates.
The doctor talks about reversing the clarity in the neutron flow
as well.
No, he does actually say that, which I quite like, but that's part
four.
There's a lot of that, and there was a lot of that last week, and
it is, again, for the Doctor Who technical manual crowd.
You know, it's not fun and I just think they should ditch it.
Well, it's a convenient get out of the problem that they're in in
episode four, really.
Well, I mean, you could do that without all just this leaden talk
about pretend scientific terms.
And that was something that Douglas Adams sort of gently satirised
and did in a really fun way with his gravitic anomalizers and...
Yeah, yeah, the conceptual geometer and stuff.
Those things are great.
And Bitmead had a good line in technobabble as well.
But this is like it's starting to become a fetish or something
that they think is entertaining.
And related to that is this is another story with heavy influence
of time lords and time lordiness.
Oh, yes, because you have storm and time more technology.
So we've got that bit of, yeah, there's all that time lord-y sort
of stuff.
And I hate it when the doctors are timelord.
Take me back to the 60s when that wasn't even a thing.
But the thing is, the time lords are done better in this story by
their non-appearance than they are in Arc of Infinity, because I
think Morden's people are referred to as mutants, like the
mutants.
They steal the time load technology, but it's got this thing in it
that makes them immortal, but they don't heal and their their
physical form, never settles, da da da.
So it sets the time lords up as these sort of mythic punishes.
Like if you look back to underworld where they screw up an entire
culture, they just kind of whistle and wipe their hands off and
walk away.
Whereas in this, it's like, okay, yeah, you can have our
technology.
You're not gonna like it.
And yeah, it sets them up as these sort of horrible mythic
beings.
You know, if we hadn't had Arc of Infinity showing us that they're
just a bunch of people in curtains sitting around sipping coffee.
Blue boringers.
But for me as a kid, I loved Time Lord stuff.
I really did.
Like, I said a few weeks ago that when I 1st watched Arc of
Infinity, it was amazing and mind blowing, and, you know, then I
grew up.
But this story for me maintains that mystique.
Image of the Fendal, maybe, or something like that.
Yeah, yeah.
And also, the idea that the kind of the time lords could be this
horrible.
And even though we have a villain in the story who's forcing the
doctor to do things and pretending to take his identity and what
have you, he doesn't want to take over a planet.
Yeah, they don't want to harm anyone.
He helps the brigadier into the capsule and stuff, the 77
brigadier into the capsule.
He doesn't seem to be a bad guy.
I mean, that's one of the things about the jeopardy of this story
and what I've been talking about, is that nobody dies, except for
the people who want to die.
The only jeopardy is really conceptual that the doctor won't have
any of his lives, right?
So you wouldn't actually see that death.
No, right?
Okay.
Obviously, the side effect that we discover in episode four, the
sting in the town is, of course, that Nyssa and Teagan desperately
need a day spa.
I think that makeup's too horrible as well.
But then when they're really old.
No, I think it is so brilliant.
It is it is yucky and it is terrible.
And I think because it's only on screen for 5 seconds.
It needs to be.
Like, you'd need to get the point straight away that this is
horrifying.
And Sarah Sutton, again, it's another moment where she really
sells it.
Oh, awful.
She's kind of twitching.
Oh, she's really upsetting.
And then we get the juxtaposition to that, which is the young, Mr
and Tegan, and they're just awful.
Nissa, young Nissa is uncredited, but she's actually Julie from
Press Gang.
So seasons one and the last few seasons of press gang.
Okay, I know from EastEnders, but she's on the DVD.
She's really proud of that being in Doctor 2 and that, I would be
saying, honey, you know.
Well, they're little kids.
I mean, Tegan doesn't seem to have an Australian accent in that
scene.
Yeah, stop, stop.
But back to what I was saying, like, obviously, it's very
convenient that the 2 mutiers meet at that one time, so this
energy discharge, however, kills the mutants and everybody else is
healed.
I quite, I tell you what I like.
I like the fact that the brigadier from 83 remembers that this is
how it went down in 77.
And so he deliberately puts his hand out to touch the other one.
And I think that Moffat has this story in mind when he writes time
crash because remember, the future doctor, like David Tennant's
doctor solves the problem because he remembers the problem from
when he was the 5th doctor.
And it also has the dialogue about shorting out the time
differential as well in time crash.
So I think that Moffat is calling back to that in that story.
I agree.
I think you said something really insightful about the threat to
the doctor that he won't have any more regenerations.
So he says he's going to be no longer a time lord, and then we
crash to the cliffhanger.
And I don't think that's a great cliffhanger.
It's very word-perily, and I even think that if we'd been told
that they were taking away all his regenerations, that might have
been better.
But it's still kind of a crummy threat, because it's just, you
wouldn't see it.
Do you know what I mean?
You would just walk away as Peter Davidson.
I'm just very visual.
And, like, even the Mordram people say, we don't want to kill
anyone, you know?
And so last week we didn't kill anyone.
And the week before the Ergon didn't kill anyone.
You look so sweet and mild mannered on the surface, but you're
just lusting for blood.
Apparently I am.
Just wait till we get to season 22, you know.
I don't have a problem with it.
And that's the truth, people.
I just want there to be more deadly danger.
And it's not there.
I'm already sick of has the Black Guardians started to threaten
Turlo with destruction for not...
Yeah, yeah.
And I'm already at least three times.
And I'm already I'm already sick of that, you know?
We do get the resolution.
Obviously before we get to that.
There a moment, I think, Peter Davidson's great, which we look so
sullen at what he, you know, he's given...
When he decides that he's going to, and he really sells it.
We know that that's his decision. and it's really good.
And you know what's really nice is that Tegan thanks at the end
that it is just a wonderful moment because actually quite early in
the story, and I've got my notes here, she's very much, am I free
of the Mara?
She's all about herself.
It's just something I noted that here is just a lovely moment.
She's so gracious. isn't she?
And her reaction as well to the death of all the Maudrenettes
around her is lovely and underplayed too.
I mean, she really, really is good.
And I think the reason that I've been complimenting Janet for the
last few episodes is that this morning I watched Modern Undead
episode 4 and was so impressed by her acting in that scene.
She's really good.
That moment is so beautiful.
Of course, what we've seen of Tegan in season 19, She's
antagonistic and I want to get home and you've abducted me and you
have to sort this out.
And, of course, last week she was in great peril.
And as you say, Todd, you know, at the top of this story.
No, oh, thank you, doctor, you've destroyed the Mara.
You know, it's still an understandable reaction and well, well, it
is a self-ish reaction, like a reaction of the self.
It's understandable to say, look, am I going to get bloody taken
over again?
But yet, that quiet moment at the end where, you know, he's on the
ground, she comes down to him and she thanks him and he's just
speechless.
He says nothing.
It's a beautiful moment between the characters, but it's so well
played and underplayed between the actors.
And I think that character wise, there's also a little bit of an
element of, don't tell anyone I said this, but because, you know
she's not saying it with Nissa and the brigadier around.
But at the same time, it's also a private moment of, this is a
character who is very, very vocal and always says what's on her
mind.
And this is a moment where she's like, no, no, this needs to be a
quiet moment.
It's absolutely beautiful.
It is.
They keep giving Tegan this stuff.
So do you think that means that Matt Smith wasn't a timelord?
Why?
Well, because he couldn't regenerate anymore.
I mean, the big threat is I won't be a timelord anymore because I
won't have any more regenerations.
Again, I think it's just saying it in a more sort of accessible
way.
The whole premise of the program will be violated if I do this and
that's why I can't do it.
But Matt didn't have any regenerations left.
You know, if he had a said, I've got 8 more lives.
I've got 7 more deaths, so you want me to give up all my debts?
I will die.
That's a better cliffhanger.
You know, if there had been one more mutant and not just, I will
still walk away this as Peter Davis.
No, I will literally be dead.
Yeah, that would have been, that would have been, that would have
been more jeopardy.
That's my biggest beef with this story in the last 2 episodes.
Like, again, you know, last week I said I felt that steak dance
could have been three.
I still think this could have been 3 episodes.
Yeah, this is a terrible Patty in episode three.
There's still these lovely moments.
There's still stuff I'm doing, but I'm just there going, okay, get
on with it, please.
We get that lovely moment with Tegan.
And then we get a moment with Turlow, where he asks the doctor, may
I join you?
And they shake hands.
You know, what's underlying that?
Yeah.
And I love the eye roll between Tegan and Nissa.
I have to say that I'm hugely excited to see how this will play
out next week.
Such a nice bunch of kids.
I hope it all goes well for them.
Well, as we leave the brigadier on Earth to recover from his
mental attack at the hands of himself, we'll be heading to the
centre of the universe for Terminus next week.
So please do come back for that.
I'll understand if you don't.
Can I take the week off?
Richard.
Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy
fly through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on
Twitter over on Bondfinger.
We released Moonraker last week, and we also have a variety of
other James Bond commentaries available, Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger
on Facebook and iTunes, Bondfingercast on Twitter.
Meanwhile, on YouTube, you can now find Doctor Who in 10 seconds
season seven.
So do enjoy that.
I think it will actually be the shortest one to date.
Until next week, however, may none of your brains pulse through
your skull.
Thank you very much for listening and good night.
Good night.
See you soon.
That was, like, her entirety, starring Todd, BLB, Nathan Bottomley
and Brenda Jones theme arrangement by Cameron Lab.
This episode, Spidey Sense, was recorded on the 24th of July
2016.
The next episode will be released in 2 weeks time on the 3rd of
September.
Any aspiring podcasters who might wish to learn a valuable lesson
about the pitfalls of recording a crucial episode with a puppy in
the house should continue listening once the closing credits are
over.
She's a perfectly reasonable character, but, but as you said, like
you'll be happier once there's only 2 I might just move that
food.
It's okay. mate, you have to wait until you start the whole week.
You're a good boy.
Now, of course, in standard definition, That's not easy to see, but
you can immediately see there is something.
Hey, little May.
You know, so it's just a little extra level that allows a
character to figure.
It's wait.
He's going to keep joking.
Because it used to be, he'd come up for a pat and you go to Pat
and he'd run away.
Yeah, it's so much more true.
Because you bite your hand as well.
He was crying.
He was, because he's, I've been teaching him to sit.
And so when I came to pick him up after 3 weeks, He was jumping
jumping up on me and trying to bite my hands and all of that sort
of thing.
And it would make him sit and he would sit.
He's still sit, but he would cry because he really didn't want to
be sitting.
He wanted to be jumping up on me.
I've even got a picture where you can actually see, you can have
to do this as a doting parent.