WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:43:10 1 00:00:30.300 --> 00:00:38.579 Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who expected something rather better in the afterlife. 2 00:00:38.640 --> 00:00:39.179 I'm Brendan. 3 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:39.960 I'm Nathan. 4 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:44.219 I'm Todd, and, well, there's no other way to put this. 5 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:47.520 The ice warriors are not here and we're talking about terminus. 6 00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:16.859 So, Stephen Gallagher's back, uh, the writer of Warrior's Gate, which I seem to recall, you know, we all kind of enjoy it, even though it was a bit confusing, but it looks like this time he's trying to write something a little more um, down to earth, straightforward, less mystical. 7 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:19.140 Uh, 1st impressions, gentlemen. 8 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:20.819 Well, it's terrible, isn't it? 9 00:01:20.879 --> 00:01:24.959 That's shockingly bad. being unfair? 10 00:01:25.019 --> 00:01:26.879 No, I loathe it. 11 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:34.739 Well, I've been really harsh, but I didn't have a break between this and the previous 3 stories and it just did my head in when I got to this. 12 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.099 You are kind of famous for not liking season 20. 13 00:01:38.459 --> 00:01:39.060 Yeah. 14 00:01:39.120 --> 00:01:39.420 Yeah. 15 00:01:39.480 --> 00:01:42.420 But, you know, coming into this, I'm just missing monsters, Nathan. 16 00:01:42.540 --> 00:01:43.500 Yeah, yeah. 17 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:44.459 I think that's a problem. 18 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:46.560 And there is, there is a high concept. 19 00:01:46.620 --> 00:01:58.859 Warrior's Gate. had, you know, that intersection between universes and this has a spaceship at the centre of the universe that causes the universe to come into existence. 20 00:01:58.859 --> 00:02:03.239 But that's actually not as interesting as it sounds on paper. 21 00:02:03.299 --> 00:02:04.620 No, no. 22 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:06.359 And I think I think that is a bit of a problem. 23 00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:17.400 My 1st problem with it is it confuses the whole event one thing from last season because is it just me or was event one in Castro Palva, the creation of a galaxy rather than a universe. 24 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:21.840 Are they just being terrination and throwing these words about willy-nilly? 25 00:02:21.900 --> 00:02:26.219 Like, you know, guardian of the solar system, which includes 500 planets. 26 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:27.060 No, it doesn't. 27 00:02:27.120 --> 00:02:30.719 And people from various galaxies, you know, all over the place. 28 00:02:30.780 --> 00:02:44.219 I think that was Bidmead being uncharacteristically careless, actually, because the idea that the universe is created by a massive hydrogen in rush makes sense, sort of, in a way that it doesn't make sense for the galaxy to be created that way. 29 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:45.240 Yeah, yeah. 30 00:02:45.300 --> 00:02:49.259 I mean, here, Event one makes more sense since the beginning of the universe. 31 00:02:49.319 --> 00:02:53.400 And I think, I think there is a reason that the concept kind of falls on its face. 32 00:02:53.460 --> 00:02:56.639 And for a start, the cliffhanger. 33 00:02:56.699 --> 00:02:58.919 Is it the cliffhanger for episode three? 34 00:02:58.979 --> 00:02:59.460 Yeah. 35 00:02:59.460 --> 00:02:59.759 Yeah. 36 00:02:59.819 --> 00:03:00.960 It is word peril. 37 00:03:01.020 --> 00:03:03.000 Yeah, it's really bad word peril. 38 00:03:03.060 --> 00:03:05.580 And we were talking about this a bit earlier, Brendan. 39 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:10.020 We were talking about the word peril cliffhanger in Arc of Infinity, episode three. 40 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:13.379 Like it's a word peril cliffhanger where something uninteresting is happening. 41 00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:16.379 Omega controls the Matrix. 42 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:16.979 Who cares? 43 00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:18.419 And what's the Matrix again? 44 00:03:18.659 --> 00:03:28.740 Here the universe is going to be destroyed, but really that's all that we get from that entire concept is just a word peril cliffhanger in episode three. 45 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:39.960 And given that that whole crisis is pretty easily averted by Jojo, the dogfaced boy. you know with his dirty fingernails. pulling a lever. 46 00:03:40.020 --> 00:03:43.199 You know, it doesn't actually end up being of any interest at all. 47 00:03:43.259 --> 00:03:48.659 It's just something for Kari and the doctor to talk about basically in their plot line. 48 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:56.699 Yeah, and I think, you know, we're kind of getting to it early in this episode, but I was thinking to myself, what makes this story not work? 49 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:06.120 And the thing is, I quite enjoy this story in a way, but it's one of those ones where I look at it and go, I can see what you're trying to do. 50 00:04:06.180 --> 00:04:08.759 There were all sorts of production problems, which I'll go into in a moment. 51 00:04:08.819 --> 00:04:12.539 But you've got a story of 2 plot lines. 52 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:22.800 You've got a story of the Lazar disease, and NISA becoming affected with the Lazar disease, um, figuring out there is a better way to cure it, and spoiler alert, dealer, staying behind in order to do that. 53 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:33.240 And then you've got the plot about terminus being at the exact centre of the universe and having started the universe, Todd is grimacing. having started the universe and possibly being the end of the universe. 54 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:38.100 The big problem is, those plots have absolutely nothing to do with one another. 55 00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:42.660 Do you know, you're forgetting the 3rd plot, which people criticise and rightly so. 56 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:43.560 Oh, yeah. 57 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:46.379 But I actually think it's the most successful of the plots. 58 00:04:46.379 --> 00:04:51.240 And that is where Turlo and Tegan crawl around in subducting for quite a long time. 59 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:56.879 And they even emerge from the ducting, I think, at some point in episode 2 and then just go back into the ducting. 60 00:04:56.939 --> 00:04:58.019 There is lots of ducting. 61 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:07.259 But there is actually a proper through line in that story because it's about Tegan and Turlow becoming the doctor's 2 companions. 62 00:05:07.319 --> 00:05:07.740 Yeah, exactly. 63 00:05:07.860 --> 00:05:11.519 And the episode starts off with them wrangling in the TARDIS. 64 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:15.600 And it's like 5 minutes before the doctor appears or maybe even 7 minutes before the doctor appears. 65 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:17.819 We don't leave the TARDIS to go anywhere. 66 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:23.879 It's all about those 2 and the way that Tegan doesn't like Turlow. 67 00:05:23.939 --> 00:05:28.079 And then the 2 of them actually gradually start working together really well, I think. 68 00:05:28.139 --> 00:05:34.740 And the funny thing about that opening scene, I really enjoy that opening scene, except, of course, for upper, it's the blue switches. 69 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.819 It's like, yeah, we've got this mystical magical time machine. 70 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:41.160 You can break it down by pressing the blue switches. 71 00:05:41.220 --> 00:05:43.199 It's basically easier to break the windows 10. 72 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:49.740 But, That scene between Tegan and Turlow, it's really well written, it's really well performed. 73 00:05:49.800 --> 00:05:51.959 It's filler material by Eric Saywood. 74 00:05:52.019 --> 00:05:53.399 So he can get it right. 75 00:05:53.459 --> 00:05:56.399 I don't think it's well written, but I do think it is well performed. 76 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:00.540 And I do think that it gives that whole plot, which is just basically marking time. 77 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:09.839 It's not quite as bad as, you know, stuffing them in the TARDIS with a delta wave augmentor for 4 episodes, but it is just kind of giving them something to do. find it tedious. 78 00:06:09.899 --> 00:06:10.319 Yeah. 79 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.639 I think they're great actors and they really do, they, they do sell it. 80 00:06:14.699 --> 00:06:20.399 But, you know, I think you can have a drinking game the number of times that Tegan says Turlow in those tunnels. 81 00:06:20.819 --> 00:06:27.060 And you know, she's very aggressive towards Turlo at the beginning and so I can see that, you know, they're trying to bond, right? 82 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:28.980 And, you know, they're in Adrik's room. 83 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:36.120 Why do we have to go back to Edrick's room, we get the theme. in the Tartars, again, how many stories have we in the since John Nathan Turner has taken over? 84 00:06:36.180 --> 00:06:40.800 Have we not actually been inside the TARDIS for an episode, like within the story? 85 00:06:40.860 --> 00:06:42.360 I think there's like, what? 86 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:45.959 Kinder, you don't see the interior and is it the leisure hive? 87 00:06:46.019 --> 00:06:46.379 Is that it? 88 00:06:46.500 --> 00:06:47.279 You know? 89 00:06:47.339 --> 00:06:48.180 I think you might be right. 90 00:06:48.300 --> 00:06:55.560 A friend of the podcast, Philip Edney just said, those scenes with Mark and Janet, or should it say Tegan Eternal, he finds painful. 91 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:59.339 And I do, by the end of it, I'm just saying, get out of the bloody ducting, you know? 92 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:00.540 It looks great on film. 93 00:07:00.660 --> 00:07:03.000 But it's like, that's going on. 94 00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:05.519 I'm going, oh, for goodness sake, this is just a diversion. 95 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:10.439 And then we've got these corridors of white or whatever. 96 00:07:10.500 --> 00:07:12.060 Like, I'm over corridors. 97 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.040 I think we got from last episode. 98 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:15.120 So it's just doing my head in. 99 00:07:15.180 --> 00:07:18.000 I just want, I'm taking this in a different direction. 100 00:07:18.120 --> 00:07:18.779 I want monsters. 101 00:07:18.839 --> 00:07:21.779 To me, this should have been the Dalek story, right? 102 00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.040 And it should have been a diversion from this black guardian trilogy. 103 00:07:26.100 --> 00:07:29.939 Oh my god, I'm over the Black Guardian, like threatening Turlo, every other thing. 104 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:30.959 It's hollow threats. 105 00:07:31.079 --> 00:07:43.800 And, you know, it would have been great to have a Dalek story here where he actually had, you know, these horrible things in front of him and he's got to, you know, we weave all his way out of it without actually, that's the distraction rather than this where we're trapped in a... 106 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:45.000 Yeah, yeah. 107 00:07:45.060 --> 00:07:49.079 I mean, when they when they get out of the ducks in episode two. 108 00:07:49.139 --> 00:07:50.699 I was relieved. 109 00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:59.939 For context, dear listeners, I was actually ill this week and sat down in one day and watched Terminus Enlightenment Kings demons to get up to date and more on that story later. 110 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:03.600 We actually don't recommend that as a way of dealing with an illness listeners at home. 111 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:05.939 Watching the king's demons. 112 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:07.139 Yeah, don't do that. 113 00:08:07.199 --> 00:08:09.839 Well, you may be able to hear, dear listener. 114 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:12.540 My voice is still a couple of octaves deeper from shock. 115 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:28.379 But when they got out of those ducks the 1st time, I was palpably relieved and then there's a bit of, look, beneath your feet and it's like, oh, no, they're going back in the ducks again, because you get that amazing bit when they get out of the ducks, where Tegan punches a computer into submission. 116 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:29.939 Can we just have a moment? 117 00:08:30.180 --> 00:08:41.100 You know, it's utterly stupid, but when you read it in a certain way that Tegan is, as Janet Fielding puts it, Lucy in space, Lucy from Peanuts in space. absolutely. 118 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:44.220 She is going to punch a computer into doing what she wants. 119 00:08:44.279 --> 00:08:48.899 Pete does a fair amount of that to the TARDIS, so she may have picked that up from him, I think. 120 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:50.820 She's so good in this. 121 00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:54.659 I'm going to turn this into the sort of Tegan fan cast for a second. 122 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:59.639 I really am enjoying her performance enormously in season 20. 123 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:00.600 Yes. 124 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:18.899 And there are a few scenes that I think are analogues of the absolute Nadir of her performance, which is panicky idiot Tegan in the TARDIS in Four to Doomsday, where the character is just being hugely unimpressive and where Janet is bringing her worst panto acting to bear on the show. 125 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:28.980 And here, you know, she is in a similar situation where she's got to stop the liner from leaving in episode four, but she's kind of, she's a little bit panicky, but she's kind of self-possessed. 126 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:33.419 She's still a bit kind of bolshy, but she's a little bit vulnerable. 127 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:36.480 Um, she gets some really nice acting in. 128 00:09:36.539 --> 00:09:41.580 I love, there's a bit where Turlow says that he's so unfit and she laughs at him. 129 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:43.320 Yeah, it's very sweet. 130 00:09:43.379 --> 00:09:55.559 Yeah, there's that little bit where that he's talking about could you kill someone, which is kind of, you know, like a stoned dorm room at 3 AM kind of conversational topic, isn't it? 131 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:58.200 But it works really well. 132 00:09:58.259 --> 00:10:00.539 Even though it's a kind of stupid scene. 133 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:03.179 I really, really like her performance. 134 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:03.779 What? 135 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:04.620 I particularly love them. 136 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:13.679 What I think Janet shows this season, is, you know, everyone kind of quotes with Elizabeth Sladen, Barry Lett says that she could be scared and braid at the same time. 137 00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:22.440 Season 20, Tegan, and season 21 can be suspicious of Turlow, but a warm character at the same time. 138 00:10:22.500 --> 00:10:30.120 She's portraying multiple emotions at once, which are like, so when she, you know, when she laughs with him, like, oh, and so unfit. 139 00:10:30.179 --> 00:10:31.860 She hasn't lost her distrust of him. 140 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:32.340 No. 141 00:10:32.340 --> 00:10:38.940 But in that moment, they're in the situation together, you know, that kind of thing. 142 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:40.500 So it's not. 143 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:44.940 It's not like she is just performing it on one level. 144 00:10:45.000 --> 00:10:49.019 You know, in the script, I don't trust her, like, they will feel I will play every scene like I don't trust her. 145 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:50.460 No, she's playing it like a real human being. 146 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:57.000 In real life, it's incredibly hard to hold a grudge against a person all the time. 147 00:10:57.059 --> 00:11:00.720 If you if you then see them doing something human and fallible. 148 00:11:00.779 --> 00:11:06.480 You feel, you feel, even if it's momentary, you feel some empathy with that situation. 149 00:11:06.539 --> 00:11:10.200 You're just saying that because you're incredibly sweet, Brendan, really. 150 00:11:10.259 --> 00:11:14.100 The rest of us hold grudges, like, absolute Olympic marathon. 151 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:25.139 The thing is, look, I have grudges in my life, but each of those people, I can think of a time when I've realised, actually, you know, you are just a person and you are a combination of good things and bad things just like the rest of us. 152 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.740 And I think that is what Janet brings to this. 153 00:11:28.799 --> 00:11:32.159 Have you noticed, though, just to just to bring down the level a bit. 154 00:11:32.220 --> 00:11:34.379 Tegan and Turlo have the same haircut. 155 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:37.679 They've even got the spiky bit at the crown. 156 00:11:37.740 --> 00:11:38.399 Have a look. 157 00:11:38.519 --> 00:11:41.580 I think Janet wears it better to be honest with you. 158 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:49.440 Do you know, the other thing, have you noticed, is we're talking about Tegan and Turlo crawling around in the dark, not the other 2 plot threads? 159 00:11:49.500 --> 00:11:52.019 Well, yeah. 160 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.259 I think this might be a good time to talk about the production difficulties with this story. 161 00:11:55.320 --> 00:11:55.980 Okay. 162 00:11:55.980 --> 00:12:06.360 So, um, it was envisioned as an all studio production with uh, the traditional 2 days of 3 blocks, of 6 shooting days. 163 00:12:06.419 --> 00:12:23.039 And then due to industrial action, they lost one shooting day, which is why we end up at Ealing for the scenes in the ducks because JNT came to the director Mary Ridge and said, I secured you a filming day and she went, well, I'll do the stuff in the ducks there because they need to climb down, climb up, et cetera, et cetera. 164 00:12:23.100 --> 00:12:34.620 Mary Ridge, of course, was hired because she had helmed half the episodes of series D of Blake 7 or series 4 to the people who use, you know, proper counting methods. 165 00:12:34.679 --> 00:12:38.159 Um, and JNT had been really impressed by her work on that. 166 00:12:38.700 --> 00:12:43.320 Due to industrial action, they then lost another studio day. 167 00:12:43.379 --> 00:12:47.159 So they were down to 4 studio days from six. 168 00:12:47.399 --> 00:12:55.980 And Mary Ridge redid our shooting scripts and said to John Nathan Turner, look, if you can get me an extra hour on the last studio day, I can get everything done. 169 00:12:56.100 --> 00:12:58.679 And he said, okay, fine, you've got your extra hour. 170 00:12:58.740 --> 00:13:05.759 So this is, of course, BBC studios, lights usually go off at 10 unless you get approval from everyone. 171 00:13:05.820 --> 00:13:13.500 The gaffer lighting director, absolutely everyone on the studio floor to work that extra hour at 945. 172 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:16.620 Mary Ridge had 25 shots left to do. 173 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.539 So 25 shots in 75 minutes. 174 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:22.200 That includes set up getting the actors in position, quick rehearsal and go. 175 00:13:22.259 --> 00:13:24.840 She was confident she could get that done by 11. 176 00:13:25.019 --> 00:13:30.779 At 9.45 p.m. on the last studio day, JNT was up in the gallery with her and said you don't have the extra hour. 177 00:13:31.740 --> 00:13:36.360 So, and she said, well, look, we're going to have to do pickups at some point. he said yeah, fine. 178 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.399 So she decided, Okay, Quicksticks was the most important scene. 179 00:13:41.460 --> 00:13:43.740 So she did a few more scenes and she did Niss's leaving soon. 180 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.460 But she said, we'll do it on the Tartar set. 181 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:52.620 And Peter and Sarah down on the floor are just saying, that makes no sense. 182 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:59.580 Why would she come back to the Tartars to leave the Tartars with an inter- um stable and Mary is like, we don't have time for this? 183 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.639 Just get on the set and do it, so they weren't happy. 184 00:14:02.700 --> 00:14:03.720 No one was happy. 185 00:14:03.779 --> 00:14:08.580 And then as Nissa is saying in the console room, let us pass in good faith. 186 00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:09.539 The lights go out. 187 00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:14.399 Oh, so they did actually start shooting the farewell scene in the. 188 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:15.120 Yeah they did. 189 00:14:15.179 --> 00:14:21.960 And what then had to happen was a pickup day had to be arranged halfway through the filming of the king's demons. 190 00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:28.379 So everyone went off to the after party after the original shoot, except for Mary Ridge because she was furious. 191 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:29.460 Yeah. 192 00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:31.740 Like, JNT went to the after party. 193 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.480 Did she ever work on it again? 194 00:14:33.539 --> 00:14:38.759 No, no, no, she well, I don't know if she was ever asked back, but she did say that she wouldn't, even if she was. 195 00:14:38.820 --> 00:14:50.580 But so, uh, a few scenes in the ship's uh, bridge and the leaving scene in the ship's corridor, and I think one or 2 Tartar scenes were recorded on that pickup day. 196 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:54.059 So they only have the liner set for that. 197 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:55.860 And the TARDIS, obviously. 198 00:14:55.919 --> 00:15:02.460 Yeah, but also for the existing 2nd studio run, they had to put in the liner sets as well. 199 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:04.620 And that's why Peter and Janet were. 200 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:05.759 So like, this doesn't make sense. 201 00:15:05.820 --> 00:15:06.960 Can't we just record it? 202 00:15:07.019 --> 00:15:08.220 It makes more sense to record it over there. 203 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:08.759 We're here. 204 00:15:08.820 --> 00:15:09.419 We're right here. 205 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:11.220 So they had to put up the set again. 206 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:15.000 But 2 particularly notable shots that were recorded in that 2nd block. 207 00:15:15.059 --> 00:15:24.360 There's that bit where they figure out the route back to where they think the TARDIS is and Nissa pulls out like a one centimetre thick piece of paper and says, this is a map of the ship. 208 00:15:24.419 --> 00:15:25.620 That's terrible. 209 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:27.419 It looks like it came out of canines now. 210 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:28.980 That printout. 211 00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:31.259 Well, that close-up of Sarah Sutton. 212 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:33.480 The close-up in particular is pretty well shot. 213 00:15:33.539 --> 00:15:34.259 That was a pickup. 214 00:15:34.679 --> 00:15:41.940 And also, um, one of the veneer, the rather cute veneer who comes into the bridge to get the hydromel. 215 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:43.019 Sigurd. 216 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:46.320 Yeah, Sigurd, the bittersweet taste of life. 217 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:47.460 That was a pickup. 218 00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:49.080 So they didn't just have to get the regulars back. 219 00:15:49.139 --> 00:15:50.759 They had to get some of the guest casts back. 220 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.700 Well, and they have to get Sarah Sutton back after she's... 221 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:54.299 Yeah, exactly. 222 00:15:54.360 --> 00:16:00.120 And apparently the after party was just pretty much the 4 red girls sitting around going, well, you're going to be back in a month anyway. 223 00:16:00.179 --> 00:16:01.620 Why are we, why are we here? 224 00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:09.000 Yeah, but okay, that's all well and good and all those problems, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that I think that this is boring. 225 00:16:09.059 --> 00:16:16.259 Yeah, I mean, they were pretty horrific production problems on season 17, but at least it manages to be funny and entertaining. 226 00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:16.860 Yeah. 227 00:16:16.860 --> 00:16:20.460 Can we talk about the plot with Nyssa? 228 00:16:20.519 --> 00:16:21.659 Yeah. 229 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:28.860 So this 2nd plot with Nissa, I think is insulting and really, really unpleasant to watch. 230 00:16:28.980 --> 00:16:38.039 And so she gets Laza's disease or they call it the Laza disease or something like that, which means she gets a little bit of kind of makeup on and stuff. 231 00:16:38.100 --> 00:16:42.360 And then she just spends the entire time being pushed around and going, no, no, no. 232 00:16:42.419 --> 00:16:48.600 And then she gets chained up and then they pull her down and then they chain her up again and they take her from place to place. 233 00:16:48.659 --> 00:16:51.960 She does get to hit Jarvik. 234 00:16:52.019 --> 00:16:52.980 What's his name in this? 235 00:16:53.039 --> 00:16:55.139 his Val guard, his guard. 236 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:55.740 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 237 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:57.240 Yeah, she gets to clobber somewhat. 238 00:16:57.299 --> 00:16:57.840 Yeah, yeah. 239 00:16:57.899 --> 00:16:58.860 She's good at that. 240 00:16:58.919 --> 00:17:01.919 That's the one moment of agency that she gets. 241 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:05.339 And the rest of the time she's just a pathetic victim. 242 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:06.299 Yeah, yeah. 243 00:17:06.359 --> 00:17:09.900 I really dislike what she doesn't get to do in this story. 244 00:17:09.960 --> 00:17:15.599 She gets a moment of, oh, when she's affected and no one sees a la Barbara back in Planet of the Giants. 245 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:21.420 She gets to scream like one of her big screams this season at that dog thing. 246 00:17:21.420 --> 00:17:25.619 And it's like, it's like she does a great screen, but it's like, I'm not scared. 247 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:27.480 Why would she be scared, you know? 248 00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:32.220 And I just, you know, she takes off her skirt, she's wearing lingerie for no apparent reason. 249 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:37.920 I just think it's, it's such a shame, like this is her last story, and I just don't think she gets really to shine. 250 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:46.079 It would have been so easy to give her the chance to shine towards the end of episode 4 where they're kind of wrapping it up. 251 00:17:46.140 --> 00:17:51.480 She says I can synthesise hydromel and she was synthesising an enzyme in episode one. 252 00:17:51.539 --> 00:17:52.200 Yeah, yeah. 253 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:53.160 So they do set that up. 254 00:17:53.220 --> 00:17:57.059 Why not get her to make the cure work? 255 00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:58.079 Why not? 256 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:01.319 Because it doesn't kind of make sense that most people are cured. 257 00:18:01.380 --> 00:18:03.960 That's what JoJo says. 258 00:18:04.019 --> 00:18:08.400 He says that most people actually do get cured, but that doesn't make sense from what we know. 259 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:13.380 And no one seems to know about a ship that takes the people who have been cured away. 260 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:14.339 Yeah, yeah. 261 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:16.920 So she just gets cured by pure lottery. 262 00:18:16.980 --> 00:18:22.559 Why can't she, with her knowledge of telebiogenesis, which she's been working on? 263 00:18:22.619 --> 00:18:27.420 Last chance to see. working on that for some time. 264 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:32.940 Why couldn't she use that knowledge, you know, order to make the cure work so that she gets a hero moment? 265 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:37.799 And, you know, why, for instance, why does she even have to get the disease? 266 00:18:37.859 --> 00:18:40.440 You know, she could be brought onto terminus? 267 00:18:40.500 --> 00:18:42.420 And then they suddenly go, hold on, you don't have the disease. 268 00:18:42.420 --> 00:18:43.980 And she could say, what disease? 269 00:18:44.039 --> 00:18:44.940 Let me investigate this for you. 270 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:47.640 You know, she doesn't have to be pushed from pillar to post. 271 00:18:47.819 --> 00:18:55.799 Stephen Gallagher has this idea, it would seem if a companion has to leave because he's given the responsibility twice to make companions leave. 272 00:18:55.859 --> 00:19:00.119 If a companion has to leave, they have to have some moral duty to go on to. 273 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:08.220 So Romano goes on to free the slaves, and Nissa leaves to cure this disease. 274 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:16.980 Yeah, but when that happens with Romana, Romana discovers that situation by going among the people she's going to help. and hearing their story. 275 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:21.660 Whereas, okay, yeah, Nissa goes among the people she's trying to help. 276 00:19:21.660 --> 00:19:24.779 But, again, there's no agency. 277 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:25.380 There's no choice. 278 00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:28.259 But she doesn't know that she's trying to help them until she's cured. 279 00:19:28.319 --> 00:19:29.220 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 280 00:19:29.279 --> 00:19:29.819 Exactly, exactly. 281 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:31.559 No, it's terrible. isn't it? 282 00:19:31.619 --> 00:19:37.440 And this time around when I was watching it, that bit where she's taken away from cure and she says, no, there are others worse than me. 283 00:19:37.500 --> 00:19:41.819 It's like, okay, that comes across as her saying, no, don't put me in the radiation chamber. 284 00:19:41.880 --> 00:19:43.319 Put them in the radiation chamber. 285 00:19:43.380 --> 00:19:45.660 It's a, I think they're not going for that. 286 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:50.579 They're going for the fact that she's saying, no, help other people. triage, help other people first. 287 00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.440 But it doesn't quite come across that way. 288 00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:54.000 And I don't think it's Sarah Sutton's fault. 289 00:19:54.059 --> 00:19:55.740 I mean, they are doing triage. 290 00:19:55.799 --> 00:19:59.160 They're curing people who are likely to be curable. 291 00:19:59.220 --> 00:20:03.119 Obviously one at a time because that's all the gum can do. 292 00:20:03.180 --> 00:20:05.519 Like, I mean, I just think Nissu is so pathetic in this. 293 00:20:05.579 --> 00:20:07.140 Like even when she's going, oh, please listen. 294 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.920 It's sort of like, I just want that Nissa back from Arc of Infinity, you know? 295 00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:13.200 Or even keeper of Tracan. 296 00:20:13.259 --> 00:20:17.519 Well, you know, it's Johnny Byrne, writing for the character he created. 297 00:20:17.579 --> 00:20:17.819 Yeah. 298 00:20:17.940 --> 00:20:20.460 I'm conflicted with her departure. 299 00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:22.259 Part of me wants, she's been through so much. 300 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:24.480 You know, her whole planet is gone. 301 00:20:24.539 --> 00:20:25.619 She's got no one. 302 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.680 Part of me wants her to find true love and be married off. 303 00:20:28.859 --> 00:20:30.599 I mean, I've been talking about that all season. 304 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:46.079 Instead, she gets this life that's going to be hard, but it does work for her, like, been this noble from Trunk, and there's a through line there, I think, that actually it's actually like, in the end, a really good thing, but I just seeing it sort of like, I just wanted something more happier. 305 00:20:46.140 --> 00:20:50.279 Yeah, I don't want her to spend the rest of her life around those dismal sets. 306 00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:53.460 It is... grim and horrible. 307 00:20:53.519 --> 00:21:02.819 And, you know, we complained about the look in season 17, how it was tired and and it was space corridors and on spaceships that all tended to look the same. 308 00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:09.420 And now the JNT era has reached that point where it is just boring space corridors that all look the same. 309 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:10.740 The skulls are good I suppose. 310 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:12.299 I like the skulls appearing. 311 00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:15.900 I like it when Tegan gets attacked by all the hands, you know, but they're so scary. 312 00:21:16.019 --> 00:21:18.059 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1st episode is terrifying. 313 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:19.799 Yeah, the TARDIS breaking up. 314 00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:22.259 It's proper horror sci-fi, that 1st episode. 315 00:21:22.319 --> 00:21:26.640 And you kind of get the impression that this is when Mary Ridge thought she'd have more time. 316 00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:29.279 You know, so there's a lot of care put into episode one. 317 00:21:29.339 --> 00:21:34.440 There's some horrifying haircuts that come into episode one. 318 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:36.299 It's very 80s, isn't it? 319 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:40.140 This is as 80s as the show ever looks, I think, with Kari and Olvir. 320 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:41.940 Yeah, can we talk about Lisa Goddard? 321 00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:43.680 Lisa Skippy Goddard? 322 00:21:43.859 --> 00:21:50.039 And those helmets and they have great boots and like capes and stuff. 323 00:21:50.099 --> 00:21:52.740 So they're clearly meant to be, well, they're raiders, aren't they? 324 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.940 They're called Raiders, but they're terribly posh for kind of space pirates and they both have terribly posh accents. 325 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.799 Well, there's been a galactic recession. 326 00:22:01.859 --> 00:22:11.880 So it's kind of like in Planet of the Dead when Lady Christine D'Souza is robbing museums, you know, they are actually from very well off families, but there's been a recession, so they're robbing stuff. 327 00:22:11.940 --> 00:22:22.559 I was absolutely in love with her in Skippy and there was a terrible sitcom called Yes, honestly, I think. sometime in the 70s or 80s. 328 00:22:22.559 --> 00:22:32.099 And I have only very vague memories of it, but she, she was the female lead and the characters used to do monologues to camera maybe at the beginning and the end and I just adored her. 329 00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:39.539 I'm sure if I saw it now, I would find her, you know, unendurably irritating, but I just think she's terrific and I love her in this. 330 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:49.619 And it is another one of these things that you complain about, Todd, where we sideline the companions and have, you know, a pseudo companion for the doctor for this story. 331 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.799 No, I mean, I think she's good. 332 00:22:52.859 --> 00:22:54.180 The memory cheats. 333 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.400 I actually thought her and what's his name? 334 00:22:56.460 --> 00:22:57.480 Oh, there. 335 00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:58.079 Oh, there. 336 00:22:58.140 --> 00:22:59.160 I actually thought they got killed off. 337 00:22:59.220 --> 00:23:02.460 So I actually sat watching this going. 338 00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:03.720 They die now. 339 00:23:03.779 --> 00:23:04.619 When did they die? 340 00:23:04.740 --> 00:23:05.339 When do they die? 341 00:23:05.400 --> 00:23:08.940 Like, I kept going, again, die, he's going to get killed now at the end of this episode, she's going to die. 342 00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:10.140 I don't know why. 343 00:23:10.200 --> 00:23:16.859 I must be confusing it with a Blake 7 where there's some raiders coming in when somebody dies but I just sat there the whole time waiting for them to be killed off. 344 00:23:16.920 --> 00:23:18.900 That would make her quite enjoyable, actually. 345 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:21.420 And speaking of who actually dies. 346 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:22.859 Who dies? 347 00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:23.880 Yeah, no one does. 348 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:24.539 No one dies. 349 00:23:24.599 --> 00:23:25.500 It's another. 350 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:26.700 We've got no deaths. 351 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:30.000 It's a disease thing which should be killing people, but no one dies. 352 00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:33.359 I am going insane that nobody is dying. 353 00:23:33.420 --> 00:23:38.160 I'm getting really, really frightened sitting opposite you right now, Tosh. 354 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:44.759 But I'm just saying, like, there's this peril, but it's not there on the screen for me to be seen, you know? 355 00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:47.460 And I had the same problem with snake dance last week. 356 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:50.640 The only people that died were the people that wanted to die, you know? 357 00:23:50.700 --> 00:23:52.619 just driving me mad. 358 00:23:52.680 --> 00:24:01.259 The corridors, the non-dest, these, these, no monsters, although if we get the monsters, they're not really that terrifying. 359 00:24:01.380 --> 00:24:03.839 Jojo, the dog face boy is pretty terrifying. 360 00:24:04.140 --> 00:24:07.799 You know, well, if you're going to have a story where no one dies, that's fine. 361 00:24:07.859 --> 00:24:13.740 But it would be nice if someone said at the end, hey, you know, unlike every other day we come to work, no one's died today. 362 00:24:13.799 --> 00:24:20.339 You know, put up that side one day since we've had one day, we've landed somewhere and not killed someone doctor. 363 00:24:20.460 --> 00:24:27.539 Yeah, I don't mind it, like if it was like one story per season because then, you know, but it just seems to be this run of not... 364 00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:29.460 And then there's the veneer. 365 00:24:29.519 --> 00:24:31.440 I don't remember any of their names. 366 00:24:31.500 --> 00:24:32.099 I don't. 367 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:32.819 No, no. 368 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.700 I mean, I do like the last 10 minutes of the story. 369 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:39.779 I like the last 10 minutes when the Doctor Funny Meats everybody and they start working together. 370 00:24:39.839 --> 00:24:42.059 It's sort of like, well, this is the start of the story for me. 371 00:24:42.119 --> 00:24:42.900 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 372 00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:45.180 I actually went, oh, oh, this is what I want. 373 00:24:45.240 --> 00:24:51.420 They're going to work against the company and, you know, we could actually have a situation like in that's Robert Holmes classic, the Sunmakers. 374 00:24:51.480 --> 00:24:51.960 Yeah. 375 00:24:51.960 --> 00:24:54.059 But I just feel like it's all just... 376 00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:57.960 We don't see it and just infuriates me. 377 00:24:58.019 --> 00:25:00.720 I think that this is a problem and it's going to become increasingly a problem. 378 00:25:00.779 --> 00:25:18.599 And I remember noticing it when Colin Baker was the doctor the 1st time through, is what the show is doing now increasingly, is setting up a high concept location, dumping the doctor and his companions in it, and they just wander around it and then it all gets resolved in 10 minutes at the end. 379 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:25.259 And the usual wandering around or being captured and escaping or just the story doesn't tend to develop. 380 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:28.500 Nothing new happens, that changes the game. 381 00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.720 And I think that that's a problem. 382 00:25:30.779 --> 00:25:38.099 And so the bit at the end is good because there's some kind of development that's changing the premise and making it more interesting. 383 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:45.539 And, you know, they see the, the, um, they see the power struggle between Valgard and ELEC or whatever the hell he's called. 384 00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.859 I can't remember his name. 385 00:25:46.920 --> 00:25:48.059 Um, um, I rec. 386 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:49.259 This is like a train wreck. 387 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:50.519 Eric. 388 00:25:50.519 --> 00:25:51.299 Eric, that's it. 389 00:25:51.359 --> 00:25:52.500 He's scary looking too. 390 00:25:52.559 --> 00:25:53.700 He's scary looking. 391 00:25:53.700 --> 00:25:56.880 And he's a little action figure on his on his hat, which is sweet. 392 00:25:56.940 --> 00:25:58.920 He's camp and he's a bit arch. 393 00:25:58.980 --> 00:26:00.960 You know, there's actually a bit of menace coming from him. 394 00:26:01.019 --> 00:26:01.619 Yeah. 395 00:26:01.619 --> 00:26:05.880 Maybe it's just the menace that you worry that he's going to put something in your drink. 396 00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:07.980 Yes, exactly. 397 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:17.339 And like boar, I think, it's a nice performance and he is sweet, but there's just too much of it and it doesn't really go anywhere. 398 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:21.180 So he's the one who gets burnt and then delivers all the exposition. 399 00:26:21.240 --> 00:26:26.700 Like, I just, I remember watching it the 1st time through just going, I don't care about you. 400 00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:27.480 Just dine. 401 00:26:27.539 --> 00:26:29.160 And the other one who's trying to kill them off. 402 00:26:29.220 --> 00:26:31.500 And like, I think all the performances are fine. 403 00:26:31.559 --> 00:26:34.140 Like I don't think anybody gives a really terrible performance in this. 404 00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:35.039 Yeah, yeah. 405 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.500 But I just don't care enough. 406 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:39.660 I'm just sit there going, I just want this over. 407 00:26:39.720 --> 00:26:45.420 It's like all the character subplots were coming into a conversation halfway through and we're having to play catch up. 408 00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:50.099 Like with Boh, when we 1st meet Boh, He's muttering and slightly mad. 409 00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:59.339 You know, if we'd met him and he was explaining to someone what he was going to do because all he says, all he says the 1st time we see him is, the readings are too high. 410 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:00.359 Well, what readings? 411 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:02.640 Why is there being too high a problem? 412 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:04.559 What is in the dangers zone? 413 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:10.079 A forbidden zone, which has a tape across the floor and we're on one side and we're fine. 414 00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:12.119 Walk across the tape and we're going to die. 415 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:14.519 It's like when you used to have smoking sections in restaurants. 416 00:27:14.579 --> 00:27:16.019 Yeah, you're all planes. 417 00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:27.059 It's a little bit like the radiation that's pouring out of the engine thing that prevents Olvair from moving an inch closer to pick up his gun. 418 00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.460 You know, it's all very silly. 419 00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.319 But he doesn't even seem to get taken off. 420 00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.299 Like, I mean, talk about peripheral vision. 421 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:38.099 Yeah, at, oh, I mean, I don't, I think Dominic Guard mostly gives a good performance. 422 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:40.380 I don't have a problem with his episode one cliffhanger. 423 00:27:40.440 --> 00:27:42.119 No, no, I think that's great. 424 00:27:42.180 --> 00:27:44.700 You know, we're all going to die. 425 00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:49.680 It's actually one of the few moments where someone gets cliffhanger dialogue and I think pitches it exactly right. 426 00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:52.799 And it's still a crash zoom of the doctor's face. 427 00:27:52.859 --> 00:27:59.940 But I do think Dominic Guard is terrible in that scene when Nessa gets taken, it turns around, oh, no, Nessa. 428 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:02.039 It's like what the hell? 429 00:28:02.099 --> 00:28:04.619 Why do we have to have a crash zoom on Peter Davis's face? 430 00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:22.559 He's, he is a great actor and I really like him as the doctor the more I watch this, but the one criticism I have of his performance is his resting cliffhanger phase, where he has, he shows absolutely no emotion at all during the cliffhangers most of the time. and it's really undramatic. 431 00:28:22.619 --> 00:28:24.660 And I think it's something that Colin does better. 432 00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:29.700 You know, where the camera zooms up his nose in, uh, Trial of a time? 433 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:31.859 Yeah, yeah. over and over again. 434 00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:40.079 Again, he's got, but at least he's performing, whereas, whereas we do get, yeah, I'm going to call it resting cliffhanger face, that's my new trobe. 435 00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:44.880 Look, I just think the doctor, I'm not going to disagree that I think that Peter Davidson is a good actor. 436 00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:47.039 But what he's got to work with. 437 00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:49.619 He's got to just make gold out of mud. 438 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:53.460 And in this, I just, you know, we haven't talked about it. 439 00:28:53.519 --> 00:28:55.140 You know what I'm saying? 440 00:28:55.259 --> 00:28:56.700 Yeah, yeah, yeah, in the background. 441 00:28:56.700 --> 00:28:57.180 He's just there. 442 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:58.559 He's just there. you know? 443 00:28:58.619 --> 00:29:13.019 And yes, he's got scenes where it's all tension and, you know, the levers, you know, going to explode, is going to get, Zero and he gets to do all of his little, you know, moment acting that you've mentioned before, but it's still like, yeah, we'll say would likes to put him in the background. 444 00:29:13.380 --> 00:29:16.740 And Collins performance is big enough to overcome that. 445 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:21.059 I mean, he's still doing that to the doctor in season 22. 446 00:29:21.240 --> 00:29:26.700 But because Colin is a bit more look at me than Pete is, he can kind of overcome it a bit. 447 00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:32.819 Well, in terms of cliffhangers, you know, there are documentaries where Peter Davidson talks about cliffhanger acting and how he finds it mildly embarrassing. 448 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:47.519 When Colin Baker talks about Cliffhanger acting, he says something on the lines off, the thing is with Cliffhanger acting, you know, ordinarily if a character discovers something bad, they'll say, oh, no, Cliffhanger acting is, oh, no, and titles. 449 00:29:47.579 --> 00:29:50.400 I think that's Collins acting generally, actually. 450 00:29:50.460 --> 00:29:55.380 The thing is, you know, that's the difference in the Colin, when we get to him. 451 00:29:55.440 --> 00:29:59.759 He seems to get that Doctor Who is not reality, Doctor Who is meant to be heightened. 452 00:29:59.819 --> 00:30:01.019 And I don't think Peter. 453 00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:04.980 I think Peter is, and this isn't a criticism. just an observation. 454 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.940 I think he's trying to bring too much reality to an unreal situation. 455 00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:15.599 Do you know, I like him and I feel that he has a more definite character than I expected before. 456 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.579 Yeah, me too. watching it. 457 00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:32.880 I really, really like his doctor and I can now, I've maybe, I've said this before, but I can now really appreciate that thing at the end of time crash where kind of both Moffatt and Tennant, essentially, are saying you are my doctor. all these things that you do. 458 00:30:32.940 --> 00:30:40.319 And the running around thing in particular, which is something that I don't think the doctor's ever done before and I love it. 459 00:30:40.380 --> 00:30:43.920 I love Peter bounding through the sets at top speed. 460 00:30:43.980 --> 00:30:45.660 I love his breathlessness. 461 00:30:45.720 --> 00:30:46.680 I love his panic. 462 00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:50.940 He has a sort of trout-nesque way of working really well when he's panicked. 463 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:52.859 There are all these things I adore about him. 464 00:30:52.920 --> 00:31:01.500 And something he does a lot more than I thought is the whole thing of coming to a fork and making this big deal of, I should go that way, but I want to go this way. 465 00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:03.660 Yeah, yeah. over and over again. 466 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:06.299 But he makes it fresh every time. 467 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.700 You know, it's it's like Tom and the jelly babies. 468 00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.099 Tom offering someone a jelly baby. never the same twice. 469 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:12.000 Yeah. 470 00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:13.799 And Pete doing that whole thing. 471 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.319 He does have this way of presenting. 472 00:31:16.380 --> 00:31:19.559 No, these are 2 completely new corridors, but I don't like that one. 473 00:31:19.619 --> 00:31:21.539 No, not bad. 474 00:31:21.779 --> 00:31:25.140 Yeah, I don't want people to think I hate this story. 475 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.319 Certainly I think it is nowhere near as bad as Arc of Infinity. 476 00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:29.759 Oh, well, what is? 477 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.359 I think because we have we have better ideas in this story. 478 00:31:33.420 --> 00:31:42.839 But the problem is we have 2 central, quite big ideas, this disease, this interplanetary interstellar disease, and the possible end of the universe. 479 00:31:42.900 --> 00:31:45.299 Neither of them are really fleshed out enough. 480 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:46.140 No. 481 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:48.900 Whereas, you know, Ark of Infinity barely had one idea. 482 00:31:49.019 --> 00:31:51.059 There are still things I like about this. 483 00:31:51.119 --> 00:31:54.059 I like ARAC, I like, I like Peter in it. 484 00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.660 Sarah Sutton is given terrible material. 485 00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:05.640 And I do have to wonder if maybe the direction is at fault as well because, you know, Stephen Gallagher wrote Warrior's Gate, for goodness sake. 486 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:09.180 But then again, bit me did say he had a lot of a hand in writing that. 487 00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:12.539 So maybe Stephen Gallagher doesn't write scripts as well as we think. 488 00:32:12.599 --> 00:32:13.140 I don't know. 489 00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:14.819 Well, he didn't write the script. 490 00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:20.039 He wrote, he wrote like a novelisation, and then Bidmead had to then construct the script from that. 491 00:32:20.099 --> 00:32:21.960 So, you know, that is a difference. 492 00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:22.920 That is true. 493 00:32:22.980 --> 00:32:23.519 That is true. 494 00:32:23.579 --> 00:32:26.759 And that's something I'm not going to criticise Eric's A word for. 495 00:32:26.819 --> 00:32:34.619 It's not Eric Saywood's job to write a script from the ground up, which he will do on a few occasions when writers don't quite come through. 496 00:32:34.680 --> 00:32:36.299 So I'm not going to criticise him for that. 497 00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:42.059 If that's the case, you know, he's done the best he can do and he's created a narrative that hangs together for 4 episodes. 498 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:43.740 If that's the case. 499 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:44.579 Just about. 500 00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:46.500 But that's my criticism. 501 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:47.819 It hangs together for 4 episodes. 502 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:51.000 It's just another 4 episodes. hangs around 4 episodes. 503 00:32:51.059 --> 00:32:57.960 You know, I think I really don't like Arc of Infinity, but I really don't like this. different from you guys. 504 00:32:58.019 --> 00:32:59.039 I just don't like it. 505 00:32:59.099 --> 00:33:01.200 I just I'm just over it at this point. 506 00:33:01.259 --> 00:33:13.859 Nathan, you've gone on and your admiration for Pete is admirable, but I don't see all the things that you've seen in the performance and I just think he's too nice and that's something he comments about. 507 00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.839 He's just not the doctor for me. 508 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:20.279 And I say that to everybody with, you know, not a criticism. 509 00:33:20.339 --> 00:33:22.079 I appreciate him so much more now. 510 00:33:22.140 --> 00:33:30.119 Like, I'm really finding new things, and that's all great, but I'm at this point going, you know, I just don't connect with you. 511 00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:36.119 I expected to experience that this time, but I'm finding a lot to like in his performance. 512 00:33:36.180 --> 00:33:38.460 And we talk about the end scene. 513 00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.259 So the final farewell scene. 514 00:33:40.319 --> 00:33:53.039 We've alluded to it a little bit, but there's this wonderful moment where Pete and Nissa are walking through the corridors, and I think Nissa says, it'll be nice to see the TARDIS again, or maybe the doctor says that. 515 00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:54.000 Yeah, it'll be nice. 516 00:33:54.119 --> 00:33:56.220 Yeah, and then this says, Antegan. 517 00:33:56.220 --> 00:33:59.700 And the doctor says, kind of, oh, maybe or something. 518 00:33:59.700 --> 00:34:06.359 Yeah, and there is something, he does this over and over again and you talked about it at the end of Arc of Infinity. 519 00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:10.019 But something that Pete does. 520 00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:18.300 He's not mean to Tegan and he's often very nice to her, but he constantly seems to just not really want her to be around or something. 521 00:34:18.360 --> 00:34:19.199 It's really funny. 522 00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:20.280 He's terrific. 523 00:34:20.340 --> 00:34:22.619 Yeah, it's quite well done. 524 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:24.539 And then they come around the corner and there's Tegan. 525 00:34:24.599 --> 00:34:27.300 And the thing is, the doctor's 1st reaction is relief. 526 00:34:27.360 --> 00:34:31.500 But then he says, hold on, I told you to stay in the TARD. 527 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:34.440 Yeah, it's like, I told you, stay locked in that box. 528 00:34:34.500 --> 00:34:35.760 We're going to have an adventure. 529 00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:39.960 And Nissa has to be the peacemaker and tell her you're happy to see her. 530 00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:42.179 Of course I'm happy to say, but she shouldn't have, that's a shape. 531 00:34:42.239 --> 00:34:48.780 We get more bloody character Vanessa in that in her final scene than we did for the rest of the story because, you know, 1st she's the peacemaker. 532 00:34:48.840 --> 00:34:58.019 But then immediately she says she's leaving and as a viewer, a bit of the subtext is, well, hold on, who's going to keep the doctor and Tegan together at this point? 533 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:05.099 But, you know, for the lead up has been awful, Vanessa, to this leaving scene. 534 00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:11.760 But the 3 regulars just do so well in that scene. 535 00:35:11.760 --> 00:35:14.579 It's genuine heartfelt emotion. 536 00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:23.639 And coming back to something you said a couple of weeks ago, Todd, about how Peter Davidson's doctor, he's focussed on what he's focussed on and that's all he's interested is. not interested in anything else. 537 00:35:23.699 --> 00:35:26.639 You know, he does, he's not terribly emotional. 538 00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:28.860 He's kind of got too, he's kind of got a few emotional states. 539 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.300 He's got he's got static. 540 00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:32.820 He's got annoyed and he's got stressed. 541 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:34.739 He doesn't have any other kind of emotion. 542 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:36.659 When Nissa says goodbye to him. 543 00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:42.780 The way Davidson performs it, he doesn't have the emotional capacity for this. 544 00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:43.920 He's like, what is this? 545 00:35:43.980 --> 00:35:44.460 I feeling. 546 00:35:44.519 --> 00:35:46.619 He just kind of stands there stunned. 547 00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:46.860 Yeah. 548 00:35:46.860 --> 00:35:48.539 And it's a really good thing. 549 00:35:48.599 --> 00:35:52.380 And but then you get Tegan and Nissa tearing up and it's a great comparison. 550 00:35:52.440 --> 00:36:03.300 It's really good to have the 2 women, I think, because Pete does show a bit of affection when he discovers Nyssa again and they hug and things, but he's not very demonstrative. 551 00:36:03.360 --> 00:36:07.619 And so to have 2 women who we kind of know now. 552 00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.079 And I love that scene. 553 00:36:10.139 --> 00:36:11.880 I really, really like it. 554 00:36:11.940 --> 00:36:13.500 It's so well performed. 555 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:20.400 It just shows how much they've wasted Sarah Sutton for the last couple of years because she's really good in it. 556 00:36:20.460 --> 00:36:22.800 And Tegan is really good in it. 557 00:36:22.860 --> 00:36:33.960 And, you know, I do tear up a bit at companion leaving scenes and, you know, now that I'm sort of older and more jaded and have no human emotions of any kind left. 558 00:36:34.019 --> 00:36:40.860 I actually still found my cold, dead heart, you know, warming a little bit in that scene. 559 00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:48.300 I really liked it and I did have a little bit, you know, I think the room might have been a bit dusty or something when I was watching it. 560 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:50.699 Yeah, we get a theme again and it's... 561 00:36:50.699 --> 00:36:53.880 We had Adrix same at the beginning and her theme here. 562 00:36:53.940 --> 00:36:56.940 It's this closure, really, to a chapter in the show. 563 00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:58.320 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 564 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:04.019 Yeah, I mean, really, with the exception of Tegan, who wasn't that much of a crossover with the 4th doctor. 565 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:04.559 We've now. 566 00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.420 The Adrik's gone. 567 00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:08.340 This has gone, 4th doctor's gone. 568 00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.400 You know, we've we've cut the gold. 569 00:37:11.519 --> 00:37:13.500 And then it just sort of ends. 570 00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:18.239 Yeah, yeah, we, we, I will not tell you again. 571 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:19.800 Kill the doctor. 572 00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:24.840 But it's like that thing in deep breath and yeah, I know it from experience. 573 00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:26.460 You guys know it from experience. 574 00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:27.960 You don't start with your biggest sanction. 575 00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:29.340 It's like, do this or I'll kill you. 576 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:30.179 Oh, you didn't do it. 577 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:34.199 Well, if you don't do it next time, I'll definitely kill you then. 578 00:37:34.260 --> 00:37:35.820 He can't take the Black Guardian. seriously. 579 00:37:35.880 --> 00:37:36.900 He doesn't flow through on his threats. 580 00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.320 I was thinking exactly the same scene, actually. 581 00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:42.239 It's exactly what... 582 00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:48.960 But, but Valentine Dial has a great voice and he is a pretty terrific villain. 583 00:37:49.019 --> 00:38:00.059 We'll talk next week about my feelings about the Guardians generally, but I do like that final scene delivered to camera with, you know, spittle flying from Valentine's mouth. 584 00:38:00.119 --> 00:38:02.940 Is he utters these sort of great villainous threats? 585 00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:06.900 I think it's really funny and it does, it is a great teaser for next week. 586 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:13.199 It makes it very clear that we are actually going into the end game of this plot just by looking at that scene. 587 00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:29.280 I will say, regarding the Black Guardian, it was essentially Stephen Gallagher, who designed the way the Black Guardian would be used in this trilogy, because the 1st story for the Black Guardian trilogy wasn't originally Mordered our Dead. 588 00:38:29.340 --> 00:38:30.300 It was Song of the Space Whale. 589 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.960 Later made by Big Finish as Song of the Magaptra. 590 00:38:34.079 --> 00:38:39.000 And Turlo was going to be one of the people living inside the space whale, et cetera. 591 00:38:39.059 --> 00:38:42.059 When that fell through, terminus was still in development. 592 00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:42.719 Right. 593 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:49.260 And so Stephen Gallagher had the one page summary for Turlow and in the one page summary. 594 00:38:49.320 --> 00:38:52.800 It's like, you know, he's currently working for the Black Guardian because XYZ. 595 00:38:52.860 --> 00:39:03.360 And his take on it in his original pitch was all the way through this story, because he had no idea what was going to come before because there was no script, all the way through the story. 596 00:39:03.420 --> 00:39:06.480 Turlo would be hearing a voice urging him to kill the doctor. 597 00:39:06.539 --> 00:39:11.340 And it wasn't until that last scene that the Black Guardian would actually appear and reveal himself. 598 00:39:11.460 --> 00:39:12.000 Right. 599 00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:30.480 But then when Modern Undead came in, Peter Grimway, it had sort of from the very beginning, kind of said, here's the Black Guardian, you know, and Stephen Gallagher didn't mind, but he's just like, that's my interpretation, that would have actually been better because you would have had some kind of tension about what Turlow was up to. 600 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.820 And, you know, whether there was actually someone speaking to him or whether he was disturbed. 601 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.940 You know, but it wasn't to be. 602 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:40.199 But that's not what we got. 603 00:39:40.260 --> 00:39:41.400 That's not... 604 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:44.099 I think that's the best way to sub up terminus. 605 00:39:44.159 --> 00:39:45.239 That's what we got. 606 00:39:45.300 --> 00:39:46.380 Oh dear. 607 00:39:47.039 --> 00:39:51.059 What is what is the doctor doing in the 1st 5 minutes of the show? 608 00:39:51.059 --> 00:39:53.760 Like, when he's not around, he suddenly runs from nowhere. 609 00:39:53.820 --> 00:39:57.960 Like, well, you know, I just find it really bizarre he's not there and it's everybody else. 610 00:39:58.019 --> 00:40:02.579 And then we have the whole, then he's a great shot with that chair. 611 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:04.679 Yes, isn't he terrific? 612 00:40:04.739 --> 00:40:07.739 He leaps over the bed and hurls the chair at the closing door. 613 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.539 That shot took an hour. 614 00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:12.719 I don't know why, but they just couldn't get it right. 615 00:40:12.780 --> 00:40:16.500 See, she could have got back her hour that she lost at the end. 616 00:40:16.619 --> 00:40:17.159 Exactly. 617 00:40:17.219 --> 00:40:20.519 But, um, I think I think we've skipped over something very important there. 618 00:40:20.579 --> 00:40:21.300 A very important question. 619 00:40:21.420 --> 00:40:22.079 What? 620 00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:28.079 Well, the doctor doesn't seem to actually make any adjustments to tune the scanner into Nissa and Tegan's room. 621 00:40:28.139 --> 00:40:29.699 He just kind of flicks a switch. 622 00:40:29.760 --> 00:40:33.300 No, he, there's a line of dialogue about how he's refocus. 623 00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:37.320 There's a line of dialogue, but as is always, very important in these situations. 624 00:40:37.380 --> 00:40:38.099 Look at his hands. 625 00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:41.400 So you reckon he's doing that quite a lot. 626 00:40:41.460 --> 00:40:42.780 Yeah apparently. 627 00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:54.059 During the week when I tweeted that I was watching these for my sick bed, Johnny Boris, who's one of the writers for Big Finish, said, I'm going to watch Turbinus and tweet along. 628 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:55.679 And he tweeted about that scene. 629 00:40:55.739 --> 00:40:58.139 Apparently in his new audio, The Waters of Amsterdam. 630 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:02.099 He provides an explanation as to how the doctor can do that so quickly. 631 00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:04.380 I haven't heard it yet, but ooh, Johnny. 632 00:41:22.920 --> 00:41:33.179 Well, dear listener, that's all the time we have for terminus, thankfully, but, uh, I do like to be beside the seaside, which is not where we're going to be for our next story of enlightenment. 633 00:41:33.239 --> 00:41:34.679 Please do come back for that next week. 634 00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:44.579 You can find us on FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter, over on Bondfinger. 635 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:52.260 We've recently released Moonre, as our commentary, and just warning, it gets a bit insane towards the end. 636 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:54.420 You can find that at bondfinger.com. 637 00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:58.079 Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter. 638 00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:02.099 And don't forget about Doctor Who in 10 seconds over on YouTube as well. 639 00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:04.860 You can find links for all of these in our show notes. 640 00:42:04.920 --> 00:42:10.380 But until next week, may your silhouetted hell dog not be realised by a giant manke gray suit. 641 00:42:10.440 --> 00:42:11.760 Thank you very much for listening and good night. 642 00:42:11.820 --> 00:42:12.480 Good night. 643 00:42:12.539 --> 00:42:13.199 See you soon. 644 00:42:17.099 --> 00:42:22.380 That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley and Brendan Jones. 645 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:24.420 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 646 00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:28.679 This episode, Danger Zone, was recorded on July 31st, 2016. 647 00:42:28.980 --> 00:42:31.739 The next episode will be released on September 18th. 648 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:36.300 What's that, Skip? 649 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:40.380 Nieces caught the Lazar's disease, so she's taken a sicky... 650 00:42:46.440 --> 00:42:49.980 I was gonna talk about the gum, but don't kick a dog while he's down. 651 00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:50.639 Yeah. 652 00:42:50.699 --> 00:42:52.559 You can talk about the gum, if you want. 653 00:42:52.619 --> 00:42:53.400 Oh, Jojo. 654 00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:54.420 What is there to say? 655 00:42:54.480 --> 00:42:59.699 Big, fat, shuffling, unimpressive looking thing that Niza screams at for no reason. 656 00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:00.179 Yeah. 657 00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:02.099 I think we'll let that sleeping dog lie.