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NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:46:37

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Welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast where we really dig your fab gear.

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We're still in season 3 of Doctor Who, and we're up to our...

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We're up to our final part.

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Thankfully, says Richard, who I think is never going to agree to host one of these again.

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It is like one o'clock in the morning now, is it?

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crazy.

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We really love these guys, these listeners.

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We love you.

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And the people who love you are, Brendan.

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Oh, and Nathan and Richard.

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Hello.

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And we've just got 3 more stories to talk about.

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We have...

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We got dried again.

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What's the next one called?

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We have, we have the gunfighters.

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We had the pistolers.

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Les Savageors and Le Machine de Guerre.

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And we've just lost our only French listener.

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We have the gunfighters, the savages and the war machines.

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So, girl, let's just get to it. it's your last chance.

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Up your glasses and join in the song.

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The Lord's right behind you and it won't take long.

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So come.

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Call the gunfighters.

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Oh, hooray.

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Woo hoo.

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Is this what we do actually all get to be Linda Baron?

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No, no, we'll edit that in later.

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I think Linda Baron is a part of all of us.

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So this is actually my story, which is a bit of a shame because although I watch it over and over again.

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I haven't really got anything at all to say.

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No, no, that's not at all true.

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I've talked before, I think, about the gunfighters, and I think people already know what I'm going to say about it.

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I have a history of not liking the historical stories very much.

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Is this the point at which I should go on a 15 year?

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It's about how much I hate the massacre.

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No, all right.

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And but there are some stories that I really like. essentially the stories that I like are the Romans, the myth makers and the gunfighters.

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And I've said why before.

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Donald Cotton.

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Donald Cotton.

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Some Donald or Dennis or something.

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And it is to do with getting the doctor and his friends and dumping them in into a story, an existing story with very strong tropes.

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Yeah, well, this one's just all tropes, tropes.

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Tropes, tropes, tropes.

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Isn't it?

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you know, this is the mythmakers again.

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This is where Par, Prime, and the old one realises his sons have got him into a war he shouldn't be getting into.

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This one could so easily have been Shane gunfight at the okay.

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Well, high noon.

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All those Westerns.

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You know what?

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The Peter Hanning review, Agore, the Jeremy Ben...

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No, and you did a beautiful reading last time.

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This is so this is outrageous.

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This is something that wasn't, can I just say, can we guess that maybe this wasn't loved by the fans of the, look, it's been said a lot of times before.

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The gunfighters had a really poor reputation among fandom.

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But then when we had the opportunity to actually see it.

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And I don't know when it got a VHS release.

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It was very late on.

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It came out as one of the final William Hartnell stories.

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There was a box set of 3 videotapes and it was...

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It was a leftover, no one gives a crap collection.

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Well, almost.

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It was the sensor rights and the gunfighters, but it was also the time meddler because the print of the time medal was so rough it took them ages to release it.

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Yeah, okay, yeah.

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But with the other 2 it was these 2 stories are unloved.

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Well, and I read, I read wife in space talking about gunfighters, and they were watching a VHS version, and Neil says that the DVD version was, you know, yet to be released, that they might watch it again.

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And so, you know, it's kind of unloved.

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And part of the reason it's unloved is because people didn't really get the chance to see it.

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And, again, we've quoted this before.

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This is Peter Haning's book, Doctor Who Celebration, published in 1983, and really the only source that any of us had at the time to know what this was about.

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And here's the final paragraph.

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And can you do a...

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Oh, okay, and echo effect on.

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It was not good.

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It was bad and it was ugly.

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That's really all I'm doing.

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That's so terrible, isn't it?

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But the egg effect does...

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Does make it sound like the voice of God.

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Oh, no, he just says, you know, the serial is poor.

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It was massacre of the okay chorale.

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You know, the British can't do Westerns, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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But I mean, the fact of the matter is, this is an extraordinarily strong story, a really, really entertaining one right from the get go.

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So suddenly.

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Yeah, exactly.

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It's really funny.

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Suddenly, in fact, he's completely wrong about the production.

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It looks amazing.

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When are they shooting this?

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Like that opening scene.

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You know, you're under a cart or something and there's a horse trough and the camera moves up and you get Linda Barron's song and it's a street and there's like shop fronts and stuff.

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It's this massive set that they're riding horses around.

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So it looks spectacular.

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You can certainly see why Rex Tucker was the caretaker producer, possibly the really the producer of Doctor Who before Verity Lambert came into the picture and he sort of departed for various reasons.

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So this it becomes his only official involvement in the program.

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But you can see that he is a very competent director.

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Both of the vision of the episode.

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And there's lots of experimental shots.

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He shoots through mirrors to get certain shots in the bar.

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There's actually a panel in behind the bar that folds open so we can shoot a mirror so we can get a certain angle.

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Right.

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And, you know, he shoots the death of Charlie from a mirror suspended above so you can see him sprawled across the bottom.

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And it's an awful scene, isn't it?

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Like that's a terrible shot.

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But also, and I am going to say that Mr. Haning is right on one thing in that the accents are of variable quality, but the actual performance...

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Unlike dodo's accent, you know.

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And she's actually from that country.

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That was leading to a compliment.

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The performances.

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The actors' performances and intention are very good.

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Absolute.

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There, you know, there is not a single character that I would point to and say, you're, you know, you're not giving this your all.

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Everyone.

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And, you know, one of the, um, the lesser Clanton brothers decides, yeah, I don't have very much to do.

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So I'm going to give my character a stutter.

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And it really, it really elevates him and makes him a memorable character.

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So when he does get locked up later in the story, those scenes are actually interesting because, you know, he's...

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No, I can't keep the Clanton straight in my head.

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No, no, no.

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But, um, it's Ike and Phineas Clanton and Billy Clanton and...

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Warren is...

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Warren Earp is...

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Well, there's Warren.

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Well, he's going to Warren against who gets shot.

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It is hard to keep track of all the characters.

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If they does stick to the history as far as we know.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's divergent.

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There's divergent history.

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It is to me.

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But, but the, and the fun thing, I think, too, is like we're having fun because we recognise the, the, um, tropes.

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So we're kind of having fun.

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But they're having fun as well.

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And so the moment, you know, they come out of the TARDIS.

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They get old Dodo and Stephen rush back in.

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They realise where they are.

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They rush back in and they put on cowboy outfits and cowgirl outfits, but sort of preposterous camp.

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That's right.

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And in a sense, that actually works quite well because, by contrast, the cowboys, who are sort of slightly fake and not sort of massively convincing.

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They also want accents from one episode to another.

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Yeah, that's kind of fun.

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That's sporting.

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But it's like, oh, that's what Shane River's doing. next week.

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Meanwhile, Shane Rimmer's going, oh, that's what William Handel's doing. that next week.

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So it points up that they don't really belong in this world.

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They're not kind of fitted to it.

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And it makes the cowboys, who could have been slightly crummy, actually appear a bit more real and dangerous because they go into this world.

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They've got guns and they're sort of being silly and, you know, terribly excited and Steven's wearing sort of satin and tassels and all sorts of stuff.

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So it is sort of, you know, he's camping it up.

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And what they don't realise is that they're in a situation where there's very real danger.

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And this is a world where guns, you know, we've talked about guns before and it's going to come up again, but this whole thing ends in a giant gunfight.

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We promised it by the song, you know, very early on.

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Um, this is, uh, you know, this isn't the kind of world that they're sort of suited for.

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But the whole thing is sort of played for comic effects and it is...

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This is the 1st time since 1st season that Billy really gets into it.

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He's really entered one of Hartnell's things.

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He wanted to do a cowboy, an Indian.

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And the thing we forget, just like Patrick Magoon when he made the prisoner a couple of years later, wanted to do a Western trope, I could believe is the word you used, in that it was a big thing, just as for us, I guess, post-Star Wars. sci-fi stuff is a big thing.

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It was for them.

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It was the go to default.

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External drama.

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Yeah, yeah.

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No, no, no.

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I mean it was huge.

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I mean, it was massive in Star Trek, this one and all of that sort of thing.

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But it's the thing that you go and see, you know, on, you know, at the movies and that sort of thing, that's the action adventure genre that people go to.

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So it is huge and it is the 1st time the BBC ever attempts.

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And they were a bit nervous about it.

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Because, you know, the bar was set by John Houston and films like The Searchers and we've mentioned high noon.

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We've mentioned that.

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Actually, does that make Dodo the Grace Kelly part in this?

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Only their mothers could tell them a part.

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Yeah, so anyway.

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So, and we go, we go from, we go from that incredible comedy to that fantastic scene between the doctor and Doc Holiday, because what we haven't mentioned is that the celestial toymaker.

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I'm trying to expunge that from my memory.

179
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Did Billy Bunter give him some poison toffee or something?

180
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Yeah, yeah.

181
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He had these sweets, which he gave the whole bag to dodo, but she didn't have any.

182
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So she offered them to the doctor.

183
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And the doctor breaks his twos.

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And so the doctor has to go to a dentist.

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And so he goes to Doc Holiday and, you know, Doc, there's all that business with the drink, you know, the doctor's like, oh, I never touch the stuff.

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And Doc Holiday says, oh, I do, and he starts getting drunk because it's like his first.

187
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And Billy just gives him the whole sort of Llana from Archer side eye.

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Like, are you really doing that?

189
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Yeah, I mean, it's, and getting back to something we've been talking about for the last 3 podcasts, Doctor Who stops being so nasty.

190
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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People kind of go, you know, why why do Stephen and Dodo rush off into this dangerous environment is because compared to what they've had over the last few weeks with Stephen being chased by Daleks and everyone he meets on the course of that being killed and them releasing a plague upon the human race and the massacre of Saint Bartholomew's Eve named after the event at which it didn't take place?

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Shush.

193
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And, and, you know, the celestial toymaker and electrical laws.

194
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They're finally, it's this environment.

195
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It's like a watery oasis in the middle of a desert.

196
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Of course they're going to just jump in and go, yeah, this is brilliant.

197
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And then of course, by the end of episode one, go, oh, actually, we're in hideous danger.

198
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Well, they're actually fans of Westerns themselves too.

199
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I always wanted to be a cowboy.

200
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I always wanted to be a cowgirl.

201
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Like, they've clearly watched them at the movies or whatever.

202
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So, or what do you have in the future where Stephen comes from, holographic brain implants or something.

203
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But they're watching Western ones of those.

204
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So they're excited by this.

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And then we have the scene with the doctor and Doc Holiday, and there we have like just about my favourite cliffhanger ever, which is the doctor walking along.

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But like we've got Stephen and Dodo, they're in the thing, they're being forced by the Clantons to play Linda Baron song and they're doing that and like Dodo's discovered how to play the piano shit.

207
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Vicki probably left some pills, you know, the how to play the piano course that she did at nursery school, you know.

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So they've been left in the town.

209
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She can suddenly play the piano.

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Stephen singing the song, which is just sort of spectacular and wonderful.

211
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The Clantons are all waiting for Doc Holiday to come along because they're going to kill him.

212
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Dog holiday has tricked the doctor into taking on his identity.

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He's clutching his face because he said his tooth out, and he's got a gun, which is kind of going, why do I have a gun?

214
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and he's kind of walking along.

215
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And then it sort of bades out.

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It's kind of low key, but there's danger and comedy and just everything in it.

217
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I think it's I think it's a real, real high point.

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I think at this point we should talk about the song.

219
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Which permeates the entire story.

220
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I'm going to go out there and start off by saying, I think it's a very good idea because again, it's one of the tropes of the Western.

221
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And it's used to pretty good effects.

222
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Occasionally it doesn't work.

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There's a bit in, I think, it's episode 3 or 4 where Johnny Ringo finds Kate and the verse actually goes, Johnny Ringo has found her.

224
00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:26.460
Johnny Ringo's found Kate.

225
00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.139
Johnny Ringo has seen her.

226
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.799
Right, so the last 3 lines. exactly the same thing.

227
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:33.240
And it happens a couple of times.

228
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.980
Other times it's very witty.

229
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.559
Like, he's gone kind of mental from Earth's heavy blow.

230
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.200
You know, that's that's quite good.

231
00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:43.440
And the verse about Charlie the Barman dying.

232
00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:50.940
But yeah, I think that just seems like some sometimes Tristram Carey is just sitting at his kitchen table at one AM going, I just want to finish this.

233
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.639
It is, but that's terrific too.

234
00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:57.120
And Charlie gets killed by Johnny Ringo. when does Johnny Ringo come in?

235
00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:57.960
Episode 3 or four.

236
00:14:58.019 --> 00:14:59.519
It must be episode three.

237
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:00.059
Yes.

238
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:05.100
And it's slightly like the myth makers in that it's all sort of fun and frolics.

239
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:06.779
And then someone's killed.

240
00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:08.279
And then it all ends in a sort of giant.

241
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:09.600
This is the thing.

242
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:10.679
We've got another story.

243
00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:18.600
Just as the Westerns, you know, in 1960, you had 35 different TV American made TV series of Westerns around the world.

244
00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:22.440
Australian Britain can get all of them, but we certainly got the best of the best of them.

245
00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.179
But by the mid 60s.

246
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.580
There were shows like the Wild, Wild West.

247
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:27.360
Do you know about that one?

248
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:28.559
which was a spoof.

249
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.080
They made an awful film version of the year, Will Smith.

250
00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:33.000
But it was kind of a send-up of Westerns.

251
00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:44.279
Well, you were getting things like Sergio Leone making his spaghetti Westerns with those beautiful Enio Morricone scores, but they were looking at it a bit sideways, as in a kind of true grist. probably the best one of them.

252
00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:47.580
It was starting to be seen as something tawdry and sad and lost.

253
00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:49.139
It was looking at ancient history.

254
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.519
It was the Middle Ages already.

255
00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.039
So something that's not just a 100 years ago.

256
00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:56.340
Yeah, 5 years, it was all now spies in space.

257
00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:57.480
Yeah, right.

258
00:15:57.539 --> 00:16:00.419
So doing a Western was a kind of tongue in cheek thing.

259
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.720
Again, this is almost another mythmakers where it starts off really jolly.

260
00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:07.320
You kind of know, again, with the people we've got on screen.

261
00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:08.580
It's Dodo and Stephen.

262
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.860
Something horrible is going to happen to just about bloody everyone.

263
00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:20.580
And it is also because we kind of know that the okay Corral and the gunfight, but it is also because Linda Barron is singing about it right from the get-go, we know that it's sort of leading up to that.

264
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:26.340
And then Johnny Ringo comes in and shoots Charlie the barman and then it sort of starts to get a bit nasty.

265
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:33.899
And all of those deaths, the deaths that all happen all get commemorated in her song as well.

266
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:48.299
Yeah, we don't we don't just get to, and and we, you know, Charlie the Barman is lying dead on the bar while we get a whole verse of it, you know, and he's been kind of sweet and he's sort of starstruck when he meets Johnny Ringo and, you know, like kind of excited and stuff.

267
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.340
And that's all sort of really quite horrible.

268
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.440
So there's sort of darkness to it.

269
00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:58.679
But I just don't feel like grindingly, you know, it's not so...

270
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.019
The tone is far better balanced than in the myth makers.

271
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:01.799
Yeah.

272
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:10.799
And I think the Mythmakers is a better script, but I think gunfighters balances its excesses better.

273
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:17.099
I think, I mean, it's hard to tell and maybe I would like the myth makers more if it existed and it wasn't just a slide show.

274
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.880
But the production of this is so great and everyone's so funny.

275
00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:22.500
Stephen is hilarious.

276
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.779
Dodo gets some great bits like that.

277
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:29.339
I've always finally been playing exactly in the right space, you know, outside of any expectations.

278
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.559
You don't need a back character to do this.

279
00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:32.640
Just like Stephen doesn't.

280
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:35.519
Jackie Lane is actually really, really good.

281
00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:36.539
They're all having fun.

282
00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:40.259
I would say she's got better comic timing than Peter Purpose.

283
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:41.700
She is really funny in it.

284
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.019
She is terrific.

285
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.720
She was well respected before she got into Doctor Who, so...

286
00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:50.700
She's got that wonderful bit where she pulls the gun on Doc Holiday.

287
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:53.519
Yeah, and then she faints.

288
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:57.779
Yeah, well, she faints when she realises he had a gun and could have killed her at any moment.

289
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:03.119
So, you know, it's it's still allowing her to be a vulnerable character.

290
00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:10.680
But giving her strength, like they used to do with Vicky and like has really hasn't happened to Dodo until this point.

291
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.759
She's also the only one of the 3 leads involved in the gunfight at the end.

292
00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:16.380
That's true actually.

293
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:17.940
Yeah, where does Billy go?

294
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:18.720
He kind of.

295
00:18:18.779 --> 00:18:20.220
Well, Billy's out at the Clanton farm.

296
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:21.900
He goes there to try and stop them.

297
00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:22.680
But they've already left.

298
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.400
Weirdly.

299
00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:23.940
Yeah.

300
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:42.539
And he, he was filmed arriving at the, at the aftermath of the gunfight with Park Lantern, and Park Lantern tries to attack Wyatt Earp, and Kate, the song, the songstress saves him, and stops him, and says, look, it's pointless, your sons are dead, et cetera.

301
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:43.319
But they cut that bit.

302
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:45.240
They decided we'll end on the feet.

303
00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:51.359
You know, the famous feet standing together of Doc Holiday and White Earp and what have you.

304
00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:58.380
And it is, I mean, it does have the, it does commit the sin that other historicals commit, which is to make the doctor peripheral to the action.

305
00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:19.920
And so the doctor kind of has to escape at the end, really, rather than doing anything to resolve anything, so, you know, as the story, as the show moves into something where it's about the doctor as a hero and the doctor sort of doing things, you know, like historicals become increasingly problematic.

306
00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.579
Yeah, yeah.

307
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:29.819
I mean, he does learn how to solve incidents, you know, after being mistaken for Doc Holiday through it, he does finally continue Doc's habit of smacking dodo on the bum.

308
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:35.940
Yeah, because they give them a they give them a wanted poster at the end.

309
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:43.500
Like, here's a superior in the old West and Dodo says something and he just smacks her on the bomb to give her into the TARDIS with the thing, not with his hand.

310
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:44.039
Not with his hand.

311
00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:44.460
No.

312
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.519
He doesn't give her a good, jolly good smack.

313
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:48.839
But, you know, it's...

314
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.480
It's the kind of thing you can imagine one of the modern doctors.

315
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.099
Carrying on in the time.

316
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:59.759
Perhaps not Peter Capaldi. you know, by the time this podcast goes out, we will have had 3 or 4 Peter Capaldi episodes.

317
00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:00.839
We will have.

318
00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:02.700
We'll be old hands.

319
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.960
We'll be sick of him When's the next guy coming?

320
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:08.099
We'll have to get t-shirts.

321
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.779
Come back, Matt Smith.

322
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.740
That's in the next podcast.

323
00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:14.640
Yeah, so what else do we have?

324
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.240
It's much, much better than people give it credit for.

325
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:24.660
So long as so long as you kind of accept that as much as it is the Western in itself, it's also sending up the Western side.

326
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:25.619
And look who's making it.

327
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.599
Donald Coughman's writing and Rex Tucker.

328
00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:31.319
Rex Tucker for an hour was the producer of the 1st six.

329
00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:32.400
Yeah, you know.

330
00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:34.920
Oh no, I think it's, I really think it's spectacular.

331
00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:38.099
It's one of my absolute favourite heart andals. seeing it again in context.

332
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:44.519
It was so nice to see a story where the doctor wasn't in some way sidelined or wasn't horribly uncomfortable.

333
00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:49.500
And where he's enjoying himself, like he's doing some great comedy acting.

334
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.740
He's, you know, fun and funny and all sorts of things.

335
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:53.519
I really like him.

336
00:20:53.579 --> 00:21:00.119
I think I've just read what Rod had to say about the gunfighters. hated it today. hated it.

337
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:01.079
So what did he say?

338
00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:04.980
He agreed with me that the song was everything that just happened.

339
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:06.900
I just saw that, you stupid woman.

340
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.079
He also, he also...

341
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:11.940
Nurse Gladys Emanuel, he's saying.

342
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:18.359
He also he also said, I have nothing against Linda Baron, but why did she, why did she not lose her voice and Julie Andrews did?

343
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:24.059
However, there was one really good scene for Dodo.

344
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:25.799
It was very nice to see Stephen in chaps.

345
00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:27.779
He does that.

346
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:28.500
You know what that means.

347
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.460
He does fancy Stephen quite quite a bit.

348
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:35.519
So past comments about Steve and I hadn't mentioned until now.

349
00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:44.819
Rod said that he actually had the striped top that Stephen had, but he had it in the 1970s and he said he looked much better in it than Stephen did.

350
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.400
And Stephen didn't look too bad in it either.

351
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:51.480
And also, apparently, way, way back in the massacre.

352
00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:53.880
And this is something you may want to watch it for again.

353
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:59.579
Stephen's showy outfit left nothing to the imagination.

354
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.019
I'm quite impressed.

355
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:06.299
Yeah, even that is not going to make me rewatch that, I can tell you that.

356
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:12.720
But I think I think it's time to leave Tombstone.

357
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:13.380
Goodbye.

358
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.480
Yes, and a jolly good smack bottom to everyone.

359
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:17.400
It's really worth watching.

360
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:19.140
It's thoroughly enjoyable and funny.

361
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:26.819
Just like those little segue stories in Star Trek next generation where they do a fistful of data.

362
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.259
Well, a rain, exactly.

363
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.640
I was going to say, or a Raymond Chandler with one when they do the... the royale.

364
00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:33.420
Yeah, exactly.

365
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.299
The big goodbye, the long...

366
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:36.480
Yes.

367
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.440
But whenever they go into standard Arza styles of storytelling.

368
00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah, exactly.

369
00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:45.359
And you can just see the whole cast having a whole lot of fun and everyone, in fact, feeling like they're on holiday.

370
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:46.440
This one does that.

371
00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:47.819
It's got a sterling cast.

372
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:54.599
It's got David Graham and Shane Rimmer straight from finishing their final voice recordings for Thunderbirds and then 2 weeks later.

373
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:55.740
Dalek, isn't he?

374
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:56.640
also a dark.

375
00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:57.660
So we own him many times.

376
00:22:57.779 --> 00:23:00.359
And then you've got Lawrence...

377
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.539
Lawrence Payne, Lawrence Payne, who's Johnny Bingo, who's fabulous.

378
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.420
Do you know who was actually originally cast for that role, but they couldn't get him?

379
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.039
And he turns up in Doctor Who later on.

380
00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:11.640
Oh, a little old actor called Patrick Troughton.

381
00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:13.380
Oh, really?

382
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:14.039
Really?

383
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:15.359
Yes, that would have been amazing.

384
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:16.559
Yeah, 1st cast.

385
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:24.180
And interestingly about Lawrence Payne, because by the time Lawrence Payne reappears in Doctor Who in the 80s, he'd retired from acting.

386
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.519
He did play in Westerns legitimately.

387
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:27.720
Yeah, absolutely.

388
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.500
With an accent.

389
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.579
He's actually good.

390
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:30.420
Well, that's the thing.

391
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:31.740
He doesn't try to put on an accent.

392
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.480
Well, he sort of does.

393
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:37.920
No, he's compared compared to the other, he sort of puts... not as terrible as anyone else's, but it's not good.

394
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:41.339
It's like someone once showed him that if I'm wrong, but I think he's a yank.

395
00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:43.380
Oh, I don't know.

396
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:51.539
But you see, I had heard he'd retired because he had an eye injury and lost most of the vision in one eye, but that had already happened at this point.

397
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.500
Oh really?

398
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:54.000
It was during a sword fight.

399
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:54.720
Wow.

400
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.880
I think he much took a sword to the eye.

401
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:59.819
And yeah, lost most of the vision in one eye.

402
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.099
I think that's why Dastari wears those glasses.

403
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:07.559
Yeah, as he as he got older, I believe he needed the glasses in the Spanish sunshine.

404
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:09.720
So they retroactively applied it.

405
00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:13.440
But yeah, I mean, he...

406
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:22.440
And he's, we should mention, we should mention that Lot mentioned that Lawrence Payne had also played Athos in Rex Tucker's 1950s version of the 3 Musketeers.

407
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:24.000
That's where he got his injury, believe.

408
00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:25.980
Yeah, and Portos was Paul Whitson Jones.

409
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:27.720
Do you think Peter Capaldi was in that version as well?

410
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.900
All with son Jones.

411
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.960
Imagine seeing him with a sabre, you know?

412
00:24:34.019 --> 00:24:35.460
The Brian Blessed of his day.

413
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:40.559
Did you know who Aramis was in that one?

414
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:42.240
Nope, Roger Delgado.

415
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:43.619
We've got to find it somewhere.

416
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:44.640
I don't think exists.

417
00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:47.880
You know, I think some real luminary talents in this.

418
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:49.859
Yeah, it's probably done on film.

419
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.039
If anyone knows, please, let us know.

420
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.140
I mean, we may find it before we find it.

421
00:24:55.619 --> 00:25:04.619
I actually think Lawrence Payne is possibly he's probably equal with Anthony Jacobs in terms of the best guest performance in this story.

422
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:05.880
Yeah, he is really good.

423
00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:08.640
And it is, I'm not sure that it's because he gets the accent right.

424
00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:11.519
I think it is because he's playing it in a different way.

425
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:16.859
So the Clantons and Doc Holiday are playing it big, do you know what I mean?

426
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:21.480
And he comes in and sort of plays against that, in order to be more menacing.

427
00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:22.500
Yeah, yeah.

428
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:24.960
And so like his accent is still not great.

429
00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:28.859
But his performance is really striking.

430
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:33.900
He makes me think of a classic from my childhood, which is who framed Roger Rabbit?

431
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:35.039
Oh, God.

432
00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:37.440
Why is that from your childhood, Brendan?

433
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:47.940
But the villain, the villain who turns up in that. sort of everyone's playing it at one level, and then Christopher Lloyd is a villain comes in and he is just completely, he's still cartoony, but he's just completely dark and evil.

434
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:53.759
And that's what Johnny Ringo's like. sort of the Clantons and versus holiday.

435
00:25:53.819 --> 00:26:01.259
There's a bit of jovial fun in there and, you know, they want to kill him, but they want to have a laugh along with it, whereas Johnny Ringo is just, no, you've called me here to kill someone.

436
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:03.359
Don't muck about.

437
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:04.079
We're gonna do this.

438
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:10.799
And as you say, that's so effective because both styles are still utterly believable in this context.

439
00:26:10.859 --> 00:26:16.680
And I think just before we move on, it's worth mentioning, of course, Anthony Jacob's other connection to Doctor Who.

440
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:22.019
His son, Matthew Jacobs, wrote the script for the Paul McGain.

441
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:24.420
Yeah, yeah, and he was on the set.

442
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:26.279
And I've seen an interview with him.

443
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:28.259
And what's the 8th doctor where his costume does he wear?

444
00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:30.180
Well, Bill Hickock.

445
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.480
Yeah.

446
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.920
Spoiler alert, I really hate that.

447
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:41.640
Okay, well, we'll tell you more about it in 2016 or...

448
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.640
Oh, by the way, did I mention that?

449
00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:50.519
Well, moving on to something that I think spoiler alert, we're all going to enjoy.

450
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:51.539
It's the savages.

451
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:52.380
I think we are.

452
00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.940
Like the score.

453
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.759
Yeah, isn't the score weird?

454
00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:04.500
It's got all these strings.

455
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.779
It's like, do you remember it, Brendan?

456
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:08.819
It's really extraordinary.

457
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:09.599
It's like nothing.

458
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:11.039
Who is it, Richard, do you know?

459
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:16.019
It's very, very strange and very different from whatever we've heard before.

460
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:20.460
And so, I mean, there are some things here that we've never seen before.

461
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:24.900
Well, I mean, let's talk about this. the status of the story first.

462
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:25.740
It doesn't exist.

463
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.740
It doesn't exist. right towards the end of series three.

464
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.779
Nearly no one's seen it.

465
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:31.680
Do you know what I mean?

466
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.839
Like, it's really forgotten.

467
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:42.000
I had I had not seen the recon or heard the audio until I washed it with God.

468
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:45.839
It was the 1st story that he had seen for the 1st time that I had also seen for the 1st time.

469
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:47.279
So it's very interesting in that regard.

470
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:52.319
Well, I mean, I've had that experience just sort of recently with a few things I'd never seen the Myth Makers before.

471
00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:53.819
I had never seen Marco Polo before.

472
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.880
You know, there's heaps of stuff that I'm now seeing for the 1st time.

473
00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:02.640
But the savages was one that where I didn't really have any idea of what I was supposed to think about it.

474
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:06.000
You know, I didn't really know what the opinion was meant to be.

475
00:28:06.059 --> 00:28:10.920
And certainly I'd heard the plot described and it didn't seem all that interesting.

476
00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:15.480
But in fact, it actually ends up being really surprisingly strong.

477
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:16.859
I liked it a great deal.

478
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:29.640
And it's kind of a bit of a tonic after the arc to have a story that is about colonialism or really about any form of oppression.

479
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:30.779
Do you know what I mean?

480
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:38.279
It doesn't have to be about colonely colonialism, although the race thing, because, you know, we've got blackface.

481
00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:41.460
Well, although he's not actually black, it's sort of orangey bronze.

482
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:42.720
It's a sort of gold major.

483
00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:45.420
Yeah, yeah, but it's darker. you know, like Frederick.

484
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:50.700
Look, you know, it's the received BBC way of any guy playing Othello.

485
00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:51.900
Yeah, yeah.

486
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.440
Yeah.

487
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:56.160
So, you know, that's sort of problematic in modern terms and stuff.

488
00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:58.500
But not everyone is sort of consistently blackface.

489
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.980
Like, Avon, isn't there a character called Avon and his girlfriend?

490
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:05.940
Like they....

491
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:08.759
I just looked it up.

492
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:11.460
Raymond Jones did the music, who also did the music for the Romans.

493
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:12.359
Okay.

494
00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:14.519
This is really different from the Romans, though.

495
00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:15.960
It's really, really strong.

496
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:22.859
It's not what this feels to me like, and again, because BBC didn't get Star Trek until a very late 60s.

497
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:24.059
This feels like an episode of Trek.

498
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.700
It does have a Star Trek sort of feel to it.

499
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.480
Flower children, not withstanding as being obvious, but it does.

500
00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:32.460
That allegorical high concept thing.

501
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.319
Ian Stuart Black will do it again.

502
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:37.140
I've just watched Macrterra, which I've heard before.

503
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:42.960
And I think macrater is like a satire of, like it's an attack on capitalism.

504
00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:53.460
And I think that this is attack on colonialism, but it's blackface and stuff aside, it's unspecific enough for it to be an attack on oppression generally.

505
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:58.259
And so what you have is the elders and they live off the life energy of the savages.

506
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:05.039
And whether you interpret that as an allegory for, you know, coming to their country and enslaving and exploiting them and taking their resources.

507
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:10.680
Well, it's old guys sucking the vital juices out of young local primitives.

508
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:12.779
Have we mentioned Peter Capelli?

509
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:15.000
But do you know what I mean?

510
00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:19.259
Like it could be that or it could just be capitalism, you know, like wage slavery or whatever.

511
00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:22.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah. works with any form of oppression.

512
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:25.200
And like it's, it's, it's done so strongly.

513
00:30:25.259 --> 00:30:29.819
So, so the very 1st episode has Exhaws hunting.

514
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.759
Oh, I want to say Nanina or something.

515
00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:34.980
Uh...

516
00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:37.859
Anyway, pretty gorgeous young woman.

517
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:39.420
Yeah, she's called Nanina.

518
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.279
It's very...

519
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:42.240
George Powell again.

520
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:43.019
She's blonde.

521
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:43.619
Oh, yeah.

522
00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:51.960
She's very blonde, pretty, and, you know, she gets captured and put in a special machine that takes out her life essence, and we're all vague about that because that's what the allegory is about.

523
00:30:52.019 --> 00:31:01.019
But she's so horribly traumatised by it. it's like she's begging not to be... really, really kind of, you know, a bit awful.

524
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:14.339
And all the elders live in sort of luxury and happiness and, you know, they've achieved a great deal and they're massively leisured and massively educated and they live in great comfort and they're super pleased with themselves, you know.

525
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:22.319
And even the doctor is sort of impressed by their society until he discovers, you know, in fact, what it's built on.

526
00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:34.380
And we don't see this from Billy enough or very much, but it becomes Trout and standard operating thing, which is why I think Macrater is slightly more successful than this at doing the same job.

527
00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:39.960
It's revolution and he wants to overthrow the society sort of thing.

528
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:44.519
But before he can do that, of course, he's putting the machine.

529
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:50.579
And his life essence gets taken out by Jane O. he's left in there for quite a while.

530
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.200
Does he get a day a week off?

531
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.660
Well, not quite.

532
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:59.460
There is one episode where he doesn't do much, but he is still there because there's a little bit of existing footage.

533
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:20.880
It's this whole thing of it's a story that not only manages to give the doctor a really strong moral role to do, but it gives him time to actually be endangered and that gives the narrative a sense of, okay, no, the doctor's really in danger here and he's having his life has been sucked out and we've seen what that's done to Nanina.

534
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:22.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

535
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:28.920
And, of course, that leads to a brilliant performance by Frederick Yeager, impersonating the doctor, well, impersonating William Hartnold.

536
00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:31.559
Yeah, so Frederick Yeager will...

537
00:32:31.619 --> 00:32:33.180
He'll go on to be in Doctor Who again.

538
00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:36.960
He'll be Sorenson and he'll be Professor Marius, who created K 9.

539
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:41.279
And he, like, I'm not sure that he's that terrific.

540
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:46.319
Do you think they were tipping him to actually like it's a recording to see how he would have gone?

541
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:47.519
Yeah, it is.

542
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:51.240
It is possibly, you know, because...

543
00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:52.799
Don't forget this is Inis Lloyd's story.

544
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:58.079
And yeah, and they're really trying to get rid of experimenting with things they can do.

545
00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:01.319
So, you know, look, I'm not sure it's a great heart and all that he does.

546
00:33:01.380 --> 00:33:02.460
But it's sort of passable.

547
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:06.119
And now that I think about it, it is that thing.

548
00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:07.920
He doesn't get a week off, does he?

549
00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:10.259
Hartnell gets dragged through tunnel.

550
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.059
He's still watching Freddie Yoga as well.

551
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:17.160
And but he gets he gets dragged through tunnels and he's kind of incapacitated and he can't act.

552
00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:18.420
He can't do anything.

553
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:25.500
So he's completely kind of like they really, really suck out his life essence. sort of a zombie for an episode.

554
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.759
And the thing that happens to Jaino is, of course.

555
00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:31.380
Hello, Su Tech.

556
00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:32.759
Uh, Su Tech.

557
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.460
J She agrees yes.

558
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.779
No, sweetheart.

559
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.779
So what happens to Janeo is a science fiction thing.

560
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:40.619
Do you know what I mean?

561
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:42.599
Like he feeds on the doctor's life energy.

562
00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:45.420
And he gains a conscience.

563
00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:51.839
He realises that their exploitation of the savages is immoral, all right?

564
00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:57.240
But I think what's really clever is that there's a parallel story going on as well.

565
00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:11.219
Because Exorce gets captured by the savages and they're going to kill him and Nanina, whom he had captured and mistreated earlier, intercedes on his behalf.

566
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.519
And because she does something kind.

567
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:15.719
Do you know what I mean?

568
00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:18.719
Even though she had every right to take revenge on him.

569
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:20.400
He's won over.

570
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:22.739
Like he's convinced that these are people.

571
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:28.860
And so while there's a kind of slightly stupid science fiction thing going on to convince Jano to switch sides.

572
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:41.519
What convinces Exhorce to switch science is the realisation that the savages are people just like him, that they're not outside the boundaries of his moral concern?

573
00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:45.539
And that's, you know, in order to exploit people in order to mistreat them.

574
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:52.860
We have to regard, we have to kind of say, well, we have no responsibility to treat them morally.

575
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.019
And that's what the elders do conspicuously.

576
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:56.880
They regard the savages as animals.

577
00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:00.599
They say that the savages can be exploited.

578
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.960
And it's an act of kindness that, you know, that turns things around.

579
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.320
And I think it's, I think that's terribly clever.

580
00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:16.320
I think had it just been, you know, the magical life essence thing, that would have been slightly more crap.

581
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:32.639
It's just, as you say, it's so the difference, a production team makes, because by now you've got Innis Lloyd as producer, and Innis Lloyd comes in even quicker than John Wiles came in and just takes the reins far quicker, and you've got Jerry Davis as well.

582
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:37.800
John Wiles, ideal sci-fi story, if you like, was the arc.

583
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:38.699
Yeah.

584
00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:52.739
And Innis Lloyd, this isn't even necessarily his ideal sci-fi story, but his 1st sci-fi story he manages to pull out is this complex moral allegory about exploitation and about it, so it can be about racism.

585
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:53.940
It can be about sexism.

586
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:59.400
It can be about all these things and it gives each the regulars something interesting to do.

587
00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:02.639
It gives the guest cast something interesting to do.

588
00:36:02.699 --> 00:36:16.320
And it's just all of all of a sudden Doctor Who's adult again and dark and hopeful at the same time rather than suddenly veering violently between the two.

589
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:19.199
It's s This is really poignant, isn't it?

590
00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:41.159
This is poignant for how Australia is being seen, but not so much by, I guess, by ourselves, by some of us, but by the rest of the world, because the allegory of how the elders live in a free state and see themselves as morally justified is how, can I say it, is how we're treating the asylum seekers coming to Australia by boat.

591
00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:44.340
But it's and look at the way the rest of the world are seeing us right now.

592
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.840
This is absolutely of the time.

593
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.579
But it does work for any kind of oppression that you identify.

594
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:51.480
Do you know what I mean?

595
00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:58.619
Like, the starting point is clearly race just because of, uh, yeah, yeah, you know, in Jano, Frederick Jager.

596
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:06.179
I wanted to say both at the same time, but because he's, because he's in blackface, you know, there's a race thing, but it does work with anything.

597
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:16.619
And I think, like, as I said, I've just watched the macraterra, I think Ian Stewart Black is writing very, very much about capitalism in the macraterra.

598
00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:36.059
And so you've had a program that has been kind of racist and kind of opposed to Vicky and opposed to strong women and like just slightly politically nasty for a while and now it's Doctor Who again. you know, he incites revolution against oppressive people.

599
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:51.179
But more than that, he convinces the oppressive people that they've done the wrong thing, and the whole thing ends with them taking machines, and smashing up the room, the preparation room thing, and talking about how much they enjoy it.

600
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:57.780
Like there's dialogue in there about how much fun it is to smash smash the system. the system.

601
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:01.559
So I just think, I think it's a real unsung gem.

602
00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:02.159
Yeah.

603
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:06.239
And and also that feeds into the departure of Stephen.

604
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.280
Can we talk about Stephen?

605
00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:10.139
I think we should.

606
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:20.219
And arguably, it's the most telegraphed leaving of a Hartnell companion because all the way through.

607
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:23.219
I mean, because of course, the doctor's incapacitated early on.

608
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:24.840
So Stephen takes the lead once again.

609
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:31.619
And Stephen is talking to people on both sides and saying, but look, this is wrong and I don't trust this and you shouldn't, what about this?

610
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:32.099
What about that?

611
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:37.139
Stephen's actually coming into this status quo and saying, okay, so you've got this system of plenty.

612
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:38.099
Where's the plenty coming from?

613
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:51.239
You know, and to, for your comparison, Richard, he's actually a kind of politician who's saying, okay, but you need to understand your environment and what you're getting out of your environment.

614
00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:54.000
Okay, so you're saying the people out there are evil.

615
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:54.659
Why are they evil?

616
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:56.820
Okay, they look funny?

617
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:57.179
What?

618
00:38:57.300 --> 00:38:58.679
No, that's not that's not good.

619
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:58.920
What?

620
00:38:58.980 --> 00:38:59.639
That's not good enough.

621
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:07.199
So, I mean, not only is Stephen the sort of moral compass for the allegory.

622
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:12.360
Of course, the doctor's very moral as well, and Dodo, when she finds out what's going on is appalled.

623
00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:16.860
There's this great line about Dodo, where Dodo wanders off, doesn't she?

624
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:22.139
And like those, the horrible upperclass people who are, you know, Avon and Samira or something.

625
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:22.860
What's she called?

626
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:24.900
Oh, I can't remember.

627
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:26.880
Avon and what's a face.

628
00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:31.260
And she wanders off and they go, oh, you know, she can't possibly have gone anywhere.

629
00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:33.780
And she's sort of wandering through the tunnels and stuff.

630
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:40.980
And I think Stephen follows her and says, you know, even Dodo wouldn't have been that stupid. out.

631
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:44.699
But Dodo discovers it and he's horrified.

632
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:49.139
And so she actually has a sort of decent role to play here.

633
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:54.840
Yeah, once again, you know, get a decent writer and a producer who cares about women.

634
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:57.900
You start getting that decent part there.

635
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.280
But yeah, Stephen shows sort of how much he has learned from the doctor.

636
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:04.860
And in the end, he, you know, he even said, you know, doctor.

637
00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:08.760
Okay, yeah, if you think I'm ready for this, then I will then I will do this thing.

638
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:10.380
It's heartrending.

639
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:16.260
But once again, it actually feels kind of appropriate that Stephen would go off and do this thing.

640
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.059
It's a real high note.

641
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:22.079
Yeah. that the companion finally leaves on a point of strength.

642
00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:25.800
And by his own volition, and maybe because it's a boy.

643
00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:28.440
Actually gets to call his own shot.

644
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:32.159
Yeah, you know, Ian and Barbara leave in a sort of good way.

645
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:34.440
But it is a bit different, isn't it?

646
00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:35.039
Yeah, yeah.

647
00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:41.099
They're grown-ups and they're kind of people and they need to go back to Earth for like no other solution would work.

648
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:42.119
Do you know what I mean?

649
00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:48.300
Like imagine the doctor had pushed them out somewhere, you know, in ruined London or ancient Troy or something?

650
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:49.559
It just would be terrible.

651
00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:50.400
It couldn't have worked.

652
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:56.159
But we're at the point we're past the point now where the companions are anything resembling real people and who cares.

653
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:01.079
And so, Stephen, given that, Stephen gets a really good sendoff.

654
00:41:01.139 --> 00:41:05.639
And given that he has de facto been the lead of the show for a while.

655
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:07.139
Do you know what I mean?

656
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:12.360
He deserves, he deserves to be the leader of something.

657
00:41:12.420 --> 00:41:14.039
And so I think that works terribly well.

658
00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:22.500
And something that's really nice about it is Peter Purpose's own reaction to that because he, you know, he knew his contract was up and he said, no, I don't want to do anymore.

659
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:25.980
And when he got it, he's like, yeah, that's actually a good way to go out.

660
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:42.420
And he's always said that if they ever came back to Stephen, he would actually like to see that Stephen had become corrupted by power, because he still felt that even though Stephen was a good and noble character, whenever you had someone in a position of power, because he's like, Stephen wasn't elected, he was just put in this position.

661
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.300
So who's to say he won't still be there in 50 years?

662
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:51.000
And he said, I'd like to see Stephen comeback. and be a despot, be reminded how to be good by meeting the doctor again.

663
00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:53.099
Ah, yeah.

664
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:58.320
And, you know, I'm sure he would have just retired and, you know, maybe.

665
00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:00.000
Yeah, spent more time with his hair, perhaps.

666
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:18.179
But, you know, it just goes to show that I think I said earlier, but the mic wasn't on. when we were just setting up, Stephen is like Mel, you know, he's not much of a character, but an actor going, okay, I haven't got much to work with, but I'm going to give a very good, very morally centred performance.

667
00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:20.039
And just do the best I can.

668
00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:22.139
Is that the Jenna Coleman?

669
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:24.599
Yeah, well, yeah, Jenna Coleman now.

670
00:42:24.659 --> 00:42:26.340
Again, she's a fantastic actress.

671
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:29.820
I really enjoy watching her, but she's given very little character to work.

672
00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:30.840
Interchangeable parents.

673
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.960
Yeah, no, I never really understood that.

674
00:42:34.019 --> 00:42:38.579
But, you know, Stephen has been more important to the show than either of them.

675
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:39.960
Do you know what I mean?

676
00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:46.679
in that it's really early on and you virtually like you have a production team trying to ease Hartnell out.

677
00:42:46.739 --> 00:43:00.840
And so they rely on Stephen and, you know, like the massacre is the Stevens show and and, you know, Stephen and Dodo are doing the celestial toy maker and like again and again, Stephen is the person who has kept the show going.

678
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:02.219
And he is good.

679
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.380
He's fun to watch, isn't he?

680
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.840
He's got some charisma and things.

681
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:23.579
I mean, I suppose that's why he's got so little, you know, when when you talk about Stephen, you go, oh, he's a space pirate and he's very brave, but he doesn't have a very complex character because the doctor at this point is not a complex character.

682
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:30.059
The doctor is, uh, no, no, he's played in a very complex way, but you can't define him.

683
00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:32.760
Because so little is known about him.

684
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:37.260
And that's because he needs to be so many things.

685
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:39.840
And so when, so much of the moment.

686
00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:44.880
The doctor is always the, that's why he's the centre of the narrative, he's kind of exists slightly outside it.

687
00:43:45.659 --> 00:43:45.840
Exactly.

688
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:47.519
And that's the case with Stephen in those stories.

689
00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:52.860
I mean, if you look at Ian, you know, you can describe Ian as very brave, but in a situation, you know how Ian will act.

690
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:56.579
You know that Ian will grab a gun or a sword and say, right, we'll take it to them.

691
00:43:56.699 --> 00:44:00.420
You know that Barbara will turn around and say, no, we've got to think of a logical way out of this.

692
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.840
You know that Vicki will be a bit quirky and a bit witty and a bit charming.

693
00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:06.599
And revolutionary.

694
00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:10.860
But with Stephen, you know, he can do the fighting.

695
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.000
He can do the biff.

696
00:44:12.059 --> 00:44:13.920
He can do the, I'm so angry.

697
00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:14.699
I'm so frustrated.

698
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:19.739
I am going to do something silly and he can do the whole standing up to racism and oppression.

699
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:21.360
He can do the muling in an airlock.

700
00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:22.860
He can do the muling in an airlock.

701
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:27.239
I think, yeah, I think you're onto something there, Nathan. because he takes over the lead.

702
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:35.699
That is when he loses some of the definition in his character because he has to be all things to all men.

703
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:45.960
I think even, you know, Richard, were you talking earlier about the, about the scene with the, um, with the, no, no, or was it you?

704
00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:51.239
It was the Stephen is trying to charge the fake terranium for...

705
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:52.019
Oh, yeah, that was me.

706
00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:52.500
That was you.

707
00:44:52.559 --> 00:45:01.199
Stephen's trying to charge the fake geranium core and he electrocutes himself and there's a plot point based on the fact that he's from further back in time than...

708
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:16.260
But in fact, you know, after that, it doesn't matter where he's from or what his background is, nothing is ever mentioned about what year he's from or what his job was or anything about his background at all, it becomes completely irrelevant.

709
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.119
He's merely a plot contrived.

710
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:26.639
So he's a, uh, you know, like he's a charismatic, um, and, you know, well-acted plot contrivance, but essentially that's really all he is.

711
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:29.820
But we love him and we're sorry for his goal.

712
00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:31.619
He just acts above me on that.

713
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:34.440
Yeah, he's been the strongest centre in the stories this year.

714
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.679
Rod really enjoyed this one as well.

715
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:42.599
And he picked up on something you mentioned earlier, the whole George Powell time machine.

716
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:50.280
Because in that, you know, you had a civilised perfect society, but it was controlled by the Morlocks.

717
00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:51.420
In this version.

718
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:53.639
If you look at the savages as being the Morlocks.

719
00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:57.000
This is the civilised controlled society, controlling the Morlocks.

720
00:45:57.059 --> 00:45:58.619
It's like, no, this is far, far worse.

721
00:45:58.679 --> 00:45:59.400
Yeah.

722
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:04.739
But Rod's other reaction to this story in terms of Stephen going was, what?

723
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.360
Because he really was upsetting the cat.

724
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:13.559
Rob was horrified to hear he upsets the cat.

725
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:15.059
My boyfriend is the cat whisperer.

726
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:18.059
I'm sorry, Su Tech. didn't mean to upset you.

727
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.519
And again. reaction.

728
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:21.420
Oh dear.

729
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:24.840
Oh, I'm sorry.

730
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:26.340
Oh, dear.

731
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:27.059
Don do that.

732
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:30.960
She'll scratch her eyes out.

733
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:35.159
Do we have anything more to say on the savages?

734
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:35.760
Oh, she does.

735
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:38.880
It's a terrific thing.

736
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:43.860
I only know it as an audio, but I really like it as that, you know, although apparently the visuals look great.

737
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:45.780
It was Christopher Barry again, wasn't it?

738
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.119
The more caves.

739
00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:50.820
It's our first quarry.

740
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:51.840
Oh, okay.

741
00:46:51.900 --> 00:46:54.960
Yeah, he doesn't make a lot of what he uses from what we can tell.

742
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:58.440
The biggest location shoots in some Dale Conversion of Earth, I believe.

743
00:46:58.500 --> 00:46:59.820
Lots of quarry stuff.

744
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:12.420
Okay, so that can mean only one thing.

745
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.059
Have we just gone groovy and fab all of a sudden?

746
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.159
We've just got groovy and fabulous.

747
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:22.679
Is that why we've all changed into these PVCA-line coats and train drivers caps?

748
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:24.659
Yes, Brandon, we've got our clothes on.

749
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:26.340
Well, I should hope so.

750
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.179
Mine's orange PDC, by the way.

751
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:32.639
It just looks gray in the black and white footage.

752
00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:35.579
Despite what anyone else may hear, that's the creaking you may hear.

753
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:37.500
No, we're coming back down to Earth.

754
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.320
Tannas is coming back to 1966.

755
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.019
For the war machines.

756
00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:49.260
Another story by Ian Stuart Black, who we just praised and adored for his work on the savages.

757
00:47:49.320 --> 00:48:00.179
And also, this comes from an idea by Kit Peddler, who had, recently come on board as Doctor Who's unofficial scientific advisor.

758
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:05.940
He's actually where the whole title of scientific advisor would later come from as an homage to him.

759
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.860
But he was a scientist.

760
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:11.039
I believe he worked in optics, optic science.

761
00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:14.880
Ophthalmology, I think, is the official term for that.

762
00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:17.940
And so what was he advising them about here?

763
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.460
Was he telling them how computers were?

764
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:28.920
Well, what he was doing was he was coming up with current scientific ideas that could be used in dramatic situations.

765
00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:39.719
So yeah, his 1st idea was, you know, computers beginning to network themselves and what would happen if the computers decided they were better at running things after they networked themselves.

766
00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:56.099
So, you know, it's, um, it's uh, 80s concerns, really, such as Skynet in the, um, it's such a Skynet in the Terminator film. films, but done in the 1960s because the 1st email was sent in the 1950s, I believe.

767
00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:09.480
And so he was working from that principle that computers were starting to become more common, the post office tower had just opened and had a giant computer relaying all the telephone calls.

768
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:17.039
So he, I think, had the idea of what happens in this computer, develops intelligence and goes rogue and that's how concept here.

769
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:19.260
It's Doctor Who's 1st mad computer.

770
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:20.699
It really is.

771
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:27.599
There's a whole lot of, you know, we forget how fearful culture in the world was about computers in the 60s.

772
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:37.739
We were seeing them as things that could actually take over our world and maybe through Facebook's instant messenger, we're about to find out if you've adopted that, that it might actually start to be happening.

773
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:46.679
Well, in fact, you had, we mentioned this in a previous podcast that we had Dr. Stephen Hawking, who recently saying the thing you've got to most fear is not a virus or climate change.

774
00:49:46.739 --> 00:49:47.940
It's AI.

775
00:49:48.300 --> 00:49:50.039
Is that someone else?

776
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:50.460
Who was that?

777
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:55.500
Yeah, Stephen Hawking just said it in this year in a press.

778
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:55.800
Yeah.

779
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:57.539
It's all getting horribly Nazi.

780
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:03.000
Okay, Votan is the leader of the Nieverlong, and we've got Wagner's d- d- d-, which is going to be Nazi.

781
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:09.179
But don't forget, IBM started out with the Fortran card.

782
00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:15.360
Process, the whole beginning of modern computer and how it's able to organise information.

783
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:23.159
It was designed for the National Socialist Party and organising all the persons who were going to be taken away to the camps.

784
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.260
Every single person had a card.

785
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:26.519
That's where the tech has come from.

786
00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:27.840
But it also comes.

787
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:28.860
You knew this in the 60s.

788
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:35.099
Yeah, it also comes, you know, like the whole computer thing as well. the enigma machine and all of that.

789
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:39.599
So like so many developments in the modern world that is propelled by the Second World War.

790
00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:40.199
Yes.

791
00:50:40.199 --> 00:51:00.599
And but through the filters of Nazism and now communism, Don't forget, when Polly starts to be taken over, she sounds exactly like Madame Mao again in her pronouncements, from now on China, whereas Dodo just turns into I don't know what, when she's taken over, this is written.

792
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:03.239
No, I really do think, well, this is about the thread of computers.

793
00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:14.159
This is the 1st time that we've actually seen the doctor have a truly somatic reaction to an ongoing or an entological... evil...

794
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:16.559
He gets a skin rash from it.

795
00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:19.320
He says my skin is and and you can just see.

796
00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:32.880
There's genuine, you haven't seen genuine fear in the doctor very often, which then, of course, triumphs in that fan, my favourite cliffhanger, maybe so far is when he does that whole fantastic pre-capaldi standoff with...

797
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.780
At the end of episode three.

798
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:40.079
Is this my I mean, is this our favourite villain monster machine since the Daleks themselves?

799
00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:41.460
Although I can remember.

800
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:43.079
Do you remember them in Blue Peter?

801
00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:44.940
It must be a DVD extra.

802
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:46.920
Where they come onto Blue Peter and stuff?

803
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:48.360
And there's some cardboard.

804
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:49.380
There's special cardboard boxes.

805
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:51.599
And they're clearly made of sort of painted wood.

806
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.500
And bizarrely, they're built in one night.

807
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:56.340
Do you know what I mean?

808
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:58.980
It's kind of like, we invent the plans for the thing.

809
00:51:59.039 --> 00:51:59.760
We send it out.

810
00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:02.880
The next morning they're sort of out smashing things up.

811
00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:03.900
It takes no time at all.

812
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:06.000
Because all they have to be is a relay.

813
00:52:06.059 --> 00:52:07.500
Botan's the intelligence running them.

814
00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:10.920
And once again, such a nerdy moment there.

815
00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:21.599
We're seeing Doctor Who move into the territory of the Avengers, where things can happen overnight, like a bit of will come up with the plan, and then the plan will happen, or the plan will already be in motion when the story starts.

816
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:26.639
In fact, it is a bigger deal than that because this is actually the 1st contemporary Earth story.

817
00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:30.539
It's very Quaitamus, though, we should throw in, nods to Nigel Neal.

818
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:32.400
Yes, yeah, computer doctor.

819
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.320
The doctor is Professor Quader Max.

820
00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:36.780
Well, because instantly he comes back to Earth.

821
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:42.599
We've never seen him on Earth before. except in Planet of Giants, where he doesn't interact with anyone.

822
00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:45.480
No, because he's all action figure scale at that point.

823
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:48.599
But here he and like he has a backstory.

824
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:49.260
He knows people.

825
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.960
He knows people, his friends with Sir Charles.

826
00:52:52.019 --> 00:52:55.800
You know, like he's a bit more 3rd doctor than we expect.

827
00:52:55.860 --> 00:53:02.579
You can see him having whiny, cheesy chat-offs with his authorities, mates, and you can see him starting to name drop.

828
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:07.260
Actually, I don't know that we would have loved him so much had he been around in contemporary London.

829
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.599
He's much more of a rebel when we see him.

830
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:10.559
Yeah.

831
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:16.739
In a way, you know, it's taken them 3 years, but they've actually done the idea that Sidney Newman hated.

832
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:17.760
This is the troubleshooters.

833
00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:20.340
Yeah, we're back to episode zero.

834
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:30.539
Although the difference is, it's a troubleshooting team of one, like Dodo, Bantam, Polly, none of them have scientific training, like the proposed troubleshooters was.

835
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.980
So it's just the Doctor Who Societist.

836
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:35.760
But Polly and Ben are very intelligent and very resourceful.

837
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:44.519
And Dodo, unfortunately, she's just had two, three, two, two, really strong stories.

838
00:53:44.579 --> 00:53:47.940
And yeah, it's the end of her contract midstory.

839
00:53:48.000 --> 00:54:00.119
And in a way, understandably, Inis Lloyd wants to make his own mark on the program, Dodo is just sort of shipped off very unceremoniously, you know, and she was on location.

840
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:03.659
They could have filmed a leaving scene for her for episode four.

841
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:09.539
And the only thing, literally the only thing I can think of that they didn't do it is they would have had to pay her for an extra.

842
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:10.260
What did they do?

843
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.219
They just say Dodo says she's in the country and she'll be fine.

844
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:15.000
She'll be fine.

845
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:16.139
We never see her again.

846
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:17.820
Oh, it's okay.

847
00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:21.840
But this, I think, is where we actually start to get things right.

848
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:24.900
This is the show starting to reboot itself.

849
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:28.079
And we're going to see that early next year.

850
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:32.519
Because spoiler alert, they're going to replace Bill Hartnall.

851
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:36.480
But they start doing it here.

852
00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:37.920
So you've got dodo.

853
00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:38.159
Right.

854
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:43.559
We come back to, we've come back to Earth and Earth is very different from when we left it, okay?

855
00:54:43.619 --> 00:54:53.699
London, contemporary London, isn't full of sort of Tweedy sort of 1950s school teachers. mod rocking Adam Faith characters like the brand new boy Ben.

856
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:54.539
Yeah, yeah.

857
00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:56.519
You've never had anyone more contemporary than that.

858
00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:57.119
No, exactly.

859
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:04.320
Both Ben and Polly, like they're attractive young people, they're kind of, you know, relatable.

860
00:55:04.380 --> 00:55:09.059
We see them at the hilarious Inferno nightclub, which is...

861
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:10.320
It is.

862
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:10.980
Everyone's.

863
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:12.780
Just so you know, you're still on the BBC.

864
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:20.760
And everyone's sort of dancing and Ben beats someone up who's trying to hit on Polly and Polly knows everyone and she's sort of fabbed and they're on the phone.

865
00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:22.559
Yeah, you look beautiful and they're startling.

866
00:55:22.619 --> 00:55:30.659
They just don't fit, but this is a lovely thing when as soon as Billy walks in and he's told his gear is fab, I think that gear in the 60s, didn't mean what it means, right?

867
00:55:30.659 --> 00:55:36.360
Not for any children who might be listening, it's not a drug reference, but although...

868
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:40.260
No, no, but he actually does fit into this really well. and you don't expect it.

869
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.300
I sort of say...

870
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:44.820
Oh, we've mentioned Adam Adamant.

871
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:48.000
I've never heard that said aloud before.

872
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:50.880
I actually pronounce it wrong.

873
00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:52.679
It is adamant.

874
00:55:52.739 --> 00:55:57.420
Adam Adamant lives out, which apparently didn't work so well for her, but that was the spinoff.

875
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:03.119
She wanted to make Sexton Blake, starring Lawrence Payne, as it later now, ITV did it instead.

876
00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:04.320
And so she made this thing.

877
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:07.380
Well, I haven't seen Adam Adamant, but I'm told it's terrific.

878
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:11.159
The Edwardian Maud thing that goes together, so, well, the Avengers were doing it.

879
00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:13.679
Look, Steed is Trad to Emma's Maud.

880
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.619
That's the 1967 annual, so adroitly put it.

881
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.159
Yeah, Billy fits perfectly into the 60s, never more so than now.

882
00:56:20.219 --> 00:56:23.579
Oh, can I just say that again, in perfect ultimate universe.

883
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:26.940
I would have liked a year, much as we love what's going to come up.

884
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:37.800
Just a year of Ben and Polly and Billy being looked after by those 2 instead of maybe we know what was going on behind the scenes and that Billy knew that his days were there and he wasn't that happy with these kids.

885
00:56:38.219 --> 00:56:40.619
And certainly Anaka doesn't say nice things about her.

886
00:56:40.679 --> 00:56:41.099
She doesn't.

887
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:50.460
And maybe this is the point to say that I kind of side with maybe it's Sandoval who says that, you know, actually she's still around and all do deference to her.

888
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:58.019
She's not perhaps as sympathetic to Billy as a young person as she was then as maybe we would be now.

889
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:01.679
I know that I, how I would have liked to have seen this play out.

890
00:57:01.739 --> 00:57:04.860
A whole year of those 3 could have been terrific.

891
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:05.940
I mean, it would have been great.

892
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.280
And the year that we get it, Ben and Polly is terrific.

893
00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:09.719
They're both really good characters.

894
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:14.820
And it is getting back to where we started, which is 2 contemporary people.

895
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:21.239
You know, a man and a woman who join the doctor on his adventures so that we have someone that we can relate to.

896
00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:25.679
It's not space people with no background, you know, it's not even people from the future.

897
00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:33.179
It's people from now, and it's people from a version of now that's a little bit more contemporary, a little bit less dated than Ian and Barbara.

898
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:37.320
However much we love Ian and Barbara and God, we love them. you know they're fantastic.

899
00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:44.340
Ben and Polly are, or they almost seem like a generation later rather than just 2 years later.

900
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:47.039
And so I think that they're really terrific.

901
00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:52.920
And Richard, your point where the doctor fits in, I think, is absolutely right.

902
00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:59.639
The person who doesn't fit in is Dodo, who just looks massively incongruous in the nightclub.

903
00:57:59.699 --> 00:58:01.079
Like, what is she wearing?

904
00:58:01.139 --> 00:58:06.780
You know, she just doesn't seem like she comes from the same world at all as these other people.

905
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:10.619
And it is that thing where she also is barely a person.

906
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:11.579
You know, she came in.

907
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:13.739
She had like 2 lines about a background.

908
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:17.639
Oh, me mum's dead and now I'm going to suddenly change my accent for no reason.

909
00:58:17.699 --> 00:58:21.420
You know, like she's just really not being great.

910
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:30.300
I think she's, I have absolutely no doubt that it has nothing at all to do with Jackie Lane as an actor.

911
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:37.860
I really think that she's the victim of them not knowing what to do with the program and them essentially flailing for all of this time.

912
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:38.940
It's the new girl.

913
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:39.599
What does she do?

914
00:58:39.659 --> 00:58:42.000
Oh, she'll have to change accent because this is terrible.

915
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:43.860
You know, like all of that's just.

916
00:58:43.980 --> 00:58:49.019
But I have to say, look how good Jenna Coleman is with pretty much the same level of backstory.

917
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:50.880
But I think I think more...

918
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.579
That leaf does not count for an entire narrative.

919
00:58:53.639 --> 00:59:01.920
I think, though, more care is taken with direction of her, an overall treatment of her. true. definitely treated better.

920
00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:03.539
They can't get away with doing the same.

921
00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:04.320
No, no.

922
00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:22.559
And, you know, we're now at the tail end of a paradigm where Doctor Who is a man and a woman, you know, essentially there's 2 leads, whereas here it's still Bill Hartnell and some people who we might or might not care about, you know, now that Ian and Barbara have left.

923
00:59:22.619 --> 00:59:26.159
So it was all just a bit of an undistinguished run of episodes.

924
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.719
But, you know, bless Jackie.

925
00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:32.400
I'm sure it had nothing to do with her.

926
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:33.539
Yeah.

927
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:35.579
She's great in the gunfighters.

928
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:40.500
And in terms of the show itself in these last 3 stories, it's really starting to get back on its feet.

929
00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:47.760
Like, you know, it had just been slowly put down to the ground in a chokehold and it's gotten up swinging.

930
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:49.920
In more ways than what?

931
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.639
It is just a shame with Jackie Lane.

932
00:59:53.699 --> 00:59:56.820
And now it's time for my exciting Jackie Lane story.

933
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.940
It may not actually be exciting. disclaimer.

934
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:02.820
Is it the worst goodbye of a companion we've seen so far?

935
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.280
It's the worst goodbye we've seen to date.

936
01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:11.159
It's worse than Donna Noble's virtual mind rape when everything's taken away from her.

937
01:00:11.219 --> 01:00:12.599
Is that not a word?

938
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:13.320
That makes me so sad.

939
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:15.719
Yeah, but I felt really distraught at the end of that.

940
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:18.059
That's the thing. makes you sad, but it makes you feel something.

941
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:21.719
Dodo's one of all you...

942
01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:23.400
No, Liz Shaw, that's a paw.

943
01:00:23.460 --> 01:00:24.179
Yeah, yeah.

944
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:25.920
We'll get it.

945
01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:30.480
But I'm like Dodo, that's not that's not the actress being treated poorly.

946
01:00:30.539 --> 01:00:32.880
Well, not on screen, no.

947
01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:35.400
Well, she didn't want to come back anyway, either.

948
01:00:35.460 --> 01:00:36.059
Anyway.

949
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:37.079
Anyway.

950
01:00:37.139 --> 01:00:41.159
Anyway, so funny, possibly not funny Jackie Lane story.

951
01:00:41.219 --> 01:00:49.320
In the lead up to recording this podcast, I decided I would look around for more stuff that Jackie Lane did because like you, Richard, I'd heard reviews that she was good in other things.

952
01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:52.079
She'd done a lot of the soaps of the day.

953
01:00:52.139 --> 01:00:53.639
She'd been irregular on some of them.

954
01:00:53.699 --> 01:01:03.840
And then her only acting credit after Doctor Who, because of course she did become an actor's agent and a voice artist agent and very successful in that line of work.

955
01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:11.159
Her only credit after Doctor Who, I discovered on IMDb, was an episode of Get Smart about 3 years later.

956
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:17.940
And I thought, that's not out of the question because John Levine went over to America and did a fair bit of work in America after he finished on Doctor Who.

957
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:23.880
And I thought 3 years, that's enough time for her to go over, just be getting bit parts and finally get a speaking part.

958
01:01:23.940 --> 01:01:28.260
And so I watched this particular episode of Get Smart.

959
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:42.119
It's called the day they turned out the Knights, Nights with a K. And premise is there's budget cutbacks at control 99 is forced to...

960
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:47.099
Well, no, no, she's actually fired. and has to take a job in a shop.

961
01:01:47.219 --> 01:01:52.860
And so I thought, oh, great, Jackie Lane's going to be either, Jackie Lane's going to be the girl in the shop.

962
01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:54.539
And no, she wasn't the girl in the shop.

963
01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:56.039
It's like, oh, oh, there are customers.

964
01:01:56.099 --> 01:01:57.420
Jackie Lane's going to be a customer.

965
01:01:57.480 --> 01:01:58.440
So there's a few customers.

966
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:05.880
And, you know, being America in the 60s, there was a customer who was an older woman and I thought, is that Jackie lady makeup?

967
01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:07.500
No, no, it's not Jackie lady makeup.

968
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.860
There was a black man, customer wearing funky threads.

969
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:13.019
No, that's not that's not Jackie Lane.

970
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.559
There were, you know, there were businessman and what have you.

971
01:02:16.619 --> 01:02:17.519
Bardi-gada-gada.

972
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:20.699
So it gets to the end of the episode, and I still haven't seen Jackie Lane.

973
01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.760
But I'm like, oh, this is really weird.

974
01:02:23.820 --> 01:02:28.199
Get to the cast list and like 5 credited cast, aside from Jackie Lane.

975
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:29.099
And so I paused it.

976
01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:39.539
And I'm like, okay, so we've got, um, the leader of chaos in this episode is such and such, the other shopgirl is such and such, warehouse man, such and such, Larrabee, such and such, hippie, Jackie Lane.

977
01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:39.840
No.

978
01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:43.920
And I'm just like, but, and I was about to rewind it when I suddenly realised.

979
01:02:44.699 --> 01:02:47.880
That I had seen a hippie. as one of the customers.

980
01:02:47.940 --> 01:02:52.860
And, you know, bunky threads, headband, corduroy waistcoat.

981
01:02:53.099 --> 01:02:55.679
IMDB's messed it up.

982
01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:59.340
This is a black American male actor called Jack Lay.

983
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:01.559
She's got the range.

984
01:03:01.619 --> 01:03:03.119
She does have a range.

985
01:03:03.179 --> 01:03:03.960
She goes north.

986
01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:05.880
She goes up and down the M4.

987
01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:08.159
She goes to Bradford.

988
01:03:08.579 --> 01:03:12.900
I look a lot of Jamaicans...

989
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:19.139
It looks like we finally seen someone who didn't do any work on television after Doctor Who.

990
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:27.119
Even Carol Anne Ford and Maureen O'Brien, whose careers did take an unfortunate turn after Doctor Who got work after Doctor Who.

991
01:03:27.179 --> 01:03:29.760
It appears Jackie Lane did not, and that's really sad.

992
01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:32.940
I think she probably decided against it.

993
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:34.920
More about her a bit later.

994
01:03:34.980 --> 01:03:35.940
Yes.

995
01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:37.860
How we...

996
01:03:37.860 --> 01:03:44.039
There's a lot of backstory stuff, you know, that Innis Lloyd was wanting to push this to the contemporary fab mod show.

997
01:03:44.099 --> 01:03:48.360
I think you can see that it's doing it, but Doctor Who can't just be one thing.

998
01:03:48.539 --> 01:03:52.559
The reason it works is you've got to let it go and do something different next week.

999
01:03:52.619 --> 01:03:53.519
That's its strength.

1000
01:03:53.579 --> 01:03:55.679
And to be fair, they do do that.

1001
01:03:55.739 --> 01:04:02.400
Like they bring the hip mod, fabulous, attractive young characters in and then they put them in the smugglers on the 10th planet and stuff like that.

1002
01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:03.300
So they do.

1003
01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:04.980
Yeah, so they do do that.

1004
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:09.960
And I, it is a return to the lovely Ian and Barbara.

1005
01:04:10.019 --> 01:04:13.260
There's even that fan rumour that Polly's last name is right.

1006
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:14.579
We never hear it.

1007
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:15.179
That's right.

1008
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:15.840
We do hear that.

1009
01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:18.360
We never hear it, but that's the thing.

1010
01:04:18.420 --> 01:04:20.940
Are we going to get another historical soon, I hope?

1011
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:22.260
I believe we are.

1012
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:26.099
But that's going to make everyone in this room happy.

1013
01:04:26.159 --> 01:04:26.820
I can tell.

1014
01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:29.460
But that's for another podcast.

1015
01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:31.260
I always look forward to it.

1016
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:34.500
I, I, um, I have to get home for a roast.

1017
01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:35.460
You've got a roast in the oven.

1018
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:41.039
I think we very quickly have to do our Jenny Laird awards for most puzzling creative choice.

1019
01:04:41.099 --> 01:04:43.260
Well I'll let you start.

1020
01:04:43.980 --> 01:04:46.920
I'll go Yes, you go first, please.

1021
01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:48.539
Well, I want Daphne Dare.

1022
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:49.440
Do you know what I mean?

1023
01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:50.699
I'm sure she's very nice person.

1024
01:04:50.760 --> 01:04:54.840
In fact, I think Dougie Camfield and Daphne Dare can share this one.

1025
01:04:54.960 --> 01:05:06.659
And it is for just the absolutely astonishing and remarkable look and behaviour and characteristics of the delegates in Russian, to the unknown and dark masterplan.

1026
01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:14.280
They're white with sort of black balls all over their face or their, their, what did you say, like a bunch of kale in a hoodie?

1027
01:05:14.340 --> 01:05:15.840
You know?

1028
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:16.679
Conehead?

1029
01:05:16.739 --> 01:05:24.539
Yeah, cone head, you know, they walk into the thing, sort of, as if they're kind of floating.

1030
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:26.400
It's very, very strange.

1031
01:05:26.460 --> 01:05:34.320
Everyone pulls out their sort of funniest, silly voice. you know, like the whole thing is just absolutely bizarre.

1032
01:05:34.380 --> 01:05:43.800
And we've seen, you know, shows like Rings of Atkerson or the spectacular end of the world, which put lots of aliens on screen.

1033
01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:51.119
But we've never really seen anything like this before and we really will never see anything like it again.

1034
01:05:51.179 --> 01:05:59.340
So, in fact, she's not credited for episode one, but quick cursory check of IMDb tells me Daphne Dare is to blame.

1035
01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:01.079
So Daphne Dale, Dougie Canfield.

1036
01:06:02.219 --> 01:06:05.579
I think I have to make my choice, John Wiles.

1037
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:23.159
And, you know, we've been batching on him a lot, so I'm not going to say everything, but I'm going to say for John Wiles, my choice has to be his and I suppose Donald Tosh's creation of Dodo, because it's so strange that they did have very definite ideas of what they wanted the series to be.

1038
01:06:23.219 --> 01:06:31.440
But they just seem to have cipher-like ideas for what they wanted the characters to be, and they were on a hiding to nothing.

1039
01:06:31.500 --> 01:06:33.420
That's kind of lazy, right?

1040
01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:36.119
It's kind of lazy writing because it's Biddy.

1041
01:06:36.179 --> 01:06:37.019
It's Sue.

1042
01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:41.639
She's pretty much on paper, the original before they all looked at it and said, that's too thin.

1043
01:06:41.699 --> 01:06:43.559
We better build it up and put something interesting in there.

1044
01:06:44.219 --> 01:06:46.320
Bitty, bitty, bitty.

1045
01:06:46.380 --> 01:06:46.980
What would she call?

1046
01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:47.820
Yes, yes.

1047
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.519
So yeah, that it's it's John Welles for me.

1048
01:06:50.579 --> 01:06:59.460
And I suppose it's just his sort of very broad strokes and not coming back to do the fine detail later approach to the show.

1049
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:04.260
And it borders on contempt.

1050
01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:06.480
I think there was a lot of contempt.

1051
01:07:06.539 --> 01:07:08.820
Why did he want, you know, why did he want the job?

1052
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:15.300
It's a bit like if you're buying a house and you want to renovate.

1053
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:22.380
You buy something that's roughly in the right shape to begin with. you don't, unless it's completely falling apart in shambolic, which doctor who wasn't.

1054
01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:26.280
You don't buy the thing and then completely try and rip it down and put up something new.

1055
01:07:26.340 --> 01:07:31.800
But wasn't he pushed into the role he his 1st love was writing and he went back to writing after this.

1056
01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:34.440
This was his 1st and only production role.

1057
01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:37.860
I took him off the line.

1058
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:54.539
Well, yeah, there was a lot of antagonism between those 2 and an ego thing and he just didn't have the lightness of touch or charm to deal with someone like Billy, which I can imagine being your 1st production job would have been pretty hard shakes because, you know, he, I don't think he, he put up from with much.

1059
01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:56.699
It was short shrift if you didn't agree with it.

1060
01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:57.300
Yeah.

1061
01:07:57.300 --> 01:08:00.480
We've been very sympathetic to him because he's...

1062
01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:10.500
He's our main character, but yeah, you know, there are 2 sides to everything, and he was clearly very difficult to work with, and we've certainly heard that from other people.

1063
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:11.400
Yeah.

1064
01:08:11.699 --> 01:08:14.099
Okay, so Richard...

1065
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:23.220
Oh, well, again, this is the things where you could see what the series had started to do and how interesting it had set out to be, anything and everything and very experimental.

1066
01:08:23.279 --> 01:08:25.260
And I think while it's actually managed that.

1067
01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:39.720
I love Dalek Master Plan and some of the stories that followed after that, again, really uncompromising in what they were setting up for and how they just allow them to be that, both the massacre and master plan sit really well together.

1068
01:08:39.779 --> 01:08:41.340
For those reasons.

1069
01:08:41.460 --> 01:08:50.640
But I think we're actually getting into the state of, um, we'll just do it because this is what you do, and that, I think, is more of Innes Lloyd, actually.

1070
01:08:50.699 --> 01:08:58.319
And then his new his new script editor, Jerry Davis, were about to discover more of that.

1071
01:08:58.979 --> 01:09:00.420
Yeah.

1072
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:02.520
Some more fun things to come up.

1073
01:09:02.579 --> 01:09:04.079
But good and not so good.

1074
01:09:04.140 --> 01:09:04.380
Yeah.

1075
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:29.460
In terms of recommendations for this series, I would like to recommend a trilogy of Big Finnish Companion Chronicles, and those are the ones featuring Peter Purvis's Stephen, and Tom Allen as the new companion for the audio's Oliver Harper. who is a companion from contemporary earth with a secret, which I won't reveal because it becomes integral to the 3 stories.

1076
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:31.920
The 1st story in disguise.

1077
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:33.000
Back to revenge.

1078
01:09:33.060 --> 01:09:35.460
The 1st story is called The Perpetual Bond.

1079
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:41.819
The 2nd story is called the Cold Equations, and the 3rd story is called the 1st wave.

1080
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:46.319
I shan't say too much about them, but very good performances from both Leeds.

1081
01:09:46.380 --> 01:09:48.300
Of course, Peter Purvis, very good actor.

1082
01:09:48.300 --> 01:09:53.340
And Tom Allen is a comedian, stand-up comedian.

1083
01:09:53.399 --> 01:09:57.300
He is most famous for the radio series Bleak Expectations.

1084
01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:01.979
Which I listen to and I love bleak expectations. hilarious.

1085
01:10:02.039 --> 01:10:04.439
It's sadly short-lived TV spinoff.

1086
01:10:04.500 --> 01:10:05.640
The bleak old shop of stuff.

1087
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:10.319
Yeah, it only ran for one season. and that's got lots of Doctor Who...

1088
01:10:10.380 --> 01:10:10.920
Stewart Head.

1089
01:10:10.979 --> 01:10:14.039
It's got Anthony Stewart head, Celia Imry pops into some of them.

1090
01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:16.079
Both of them.

1091
01:10:16.140 --> 01:10:17.220
We own them.

1092
01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:17.699
That is correct.

1093
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:19.800
We've just lost another Chumbley eye.

1094
01:10:19.859 --> 01:10:21.239
Has anyone else got a recommendation?

1095
01:10:21.300 --> 01:10:22.680
Yes, I do.

1096
01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:37.020
This is an unusual one because I've done, you know, sort of Doctor Who books and things before, but there is a sort of 6 minute video of Jackie Lane visiting Paris in November of 2011.

1097
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:42.239
Now, I can't remember who authored it.

1098
01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:47.640
But I will put a link to it in the show notes when this episode goes up.

1099
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:48.840
And it's delightful.

1100
01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:52.319
It's done to the music of Edith Pierre. a.k.a.

1101
01:10:52.319 --> 01:10:52.979
Dudley Simpson.

1102
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:57.239
You can actually play running through Paris running through Paris in the background.

1103
01:10:57.300 --> 01:10:59.399
And it's really true. lovely.

1104
01:10:59.460 --> 01:11:05.460
Jackie has, you know, never come back, although she did do the Doctor Who night thing for the 15th anniversary.

1105
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:09.539
Yeah, she did she did a live cross or a pre-recorded message for the Doctor Who after party.

1106
01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:12.960
But she's never done a DVD commentary or a DVD extra.

1107
01:11:13.020 --> 01:11:15.180
She's never participated in a big finish thing.

1108
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:17.579
You know, she's kind of walked away and...

1109
01:11:17.579 --> 01:11:21.539
Well, John, what fans have also been saying over the years, which is unfair, I think.

1110
01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:27.300
But this is spectacular and lovely and it will make you just love her again.

1111
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.460
So click on the link.

1112
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:33.420
You know, it'll be on the website and on the show notes on your podcast app.

1113
01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:37.859
We should do more little happy link things because it doesn't take much of your time away.

1114
01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:40.859
Greg Miller put some terrific things up for the last episode.

1115
01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:44.100
I'm almost willing to just segue to him for his choices.

1116
01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:57.659
But if you're going to, or wanting to put some extra time in, from what you've heard of this season, I'd really recommend going back to my, my pre-vote and loves of print media.

1117
01:11:57.720 --> 01:11:59.220
Donald Cotton's books.

1118
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:06.659
We mentioned them during the podcasts, but his novelisations of both myth makers and gunfighters.

1119
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:09.060
Just fantastic and funny.

1120
01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:10.380
And they're quick reads as well.

1121
01:12:10.439 --> 01:12:18.000
There are audio versions, if you prefer to listen to them, but it's just nice to sit up in bed for an hour before you go to bed and you'll get through them in 3 or 4 nights.

1122
01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:19.260
They're really good fun.

1123
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:24.300
Really good I really, I have had the Stephen Thorn version on my code.

1124
01:12:24.779 --> 01:12:25.140
Strangers.

1125
01:12:25.199 --> 01:12:26.939
I just haven't had, you know, the time.

1126
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:29.279
I did follow your last recommendations.

1127
01:12:29.340 --> 01:12:31.140
I enjoyed crusades.

1128
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:31.680
Yeah, yeah.

1129
01:12:31.739 --> 01:12:35.579
I have listened to the myth makers and it's magical.

1130
01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:36.420
Excellent, isn't it?

1131
01:12:36.539 --> 01:12:36.720
Yeah.

1132
01:12:43.020 --> 01:12:45.479
Right, well, I think that's about it from us.

1133
01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:49.619
We will be back next month with another 3 podcasts, where...

1134
01:12:49.619 --> 01:12:52.260
And some shiny things in colour.

1135
01:12:52.380 --> 01:12:53.039
Yes.

1136
01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:54.600
Oh, spoiler alert.

1137
01:12:54.659 --> 01:12:55.319
Yes, indeed.

1138
01:12:55.380 --> 01:13:10.380
Um, but uh, as we end this season, uh, I just would like to end this season with a little bit of verse that I came up with, if you don't mind, gentlemen, because, um, there's something over snow cap and.

1139
01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:11.340
It's not the moon.

1140
01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:12.600
Next month.

1141
01:13:12.659 --> 01:13:16.020
It's goodbye, Hartnell, and Hello, Troutoon.

1142
01:13:16.979 --> 01:13:18.899
Good night, everyone.

1143
01:13:19.560 --> 01:13:21.180
Good everything.

1144
01:13:27.239 --> 01:13:32.159
You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1145
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:37.319
This episode, Tropes, Tropes, Tropes, Tropes, Tropes, who was recorded on Sunday, the 10th of August.

1146
01:13:37.380 --> 01:13:40.319
The next episode will be released on October 12th.

1147
01:13:40.380 --> 01:13:46.619
You can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight your entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1148
01:13:55.680 --> 01:13:59.880
Cushing is...