WEBVTT

NOTE
This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:24:17

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Welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who

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podcast where we really dig your fab gear.

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We're still in season 3 of Doctor Who, and we're up to our...

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We're up to our final part.

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Thankfully, says Richard, who I think is never going to agree to

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host one of these again.

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It is like one o'clock in the morning now, is it?

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crazy.

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We really love these guys, these listeners.

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We love you.

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And the people who love you are, Brendan.

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Oh, and Nathan and Richard.

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Hello.

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And we've just got 3 more stories to talk about.

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We have...

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We got dried again.

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What's the next one called?

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We have, we have the gunfighters.

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We had the pistolers.

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Les Savageors and Le Machine de Guerre.

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And we've just lost our only French listener.

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We have the gunfighters, the savages and the war machines.

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So, girl, let's just get to it. it's your last chance.

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Up your glasses and join in the song.

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The Lord's right behind you and it won't take long.

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So come.

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Call the gunfighters.

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Oh, hooray.

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Woo hoo.

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Is this what we do actually all get to be Linda Baron?

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No, no, we'll edit that in later.

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I think Linda Baron is a part of all of us.

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So this is actually my story, which is a bit of a shame because

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although I watch it over and over again.

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I haven't really got anything at all to say.

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No, no, that's not at all true.

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I've talked before, I think, about the gunfighters, and I think

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people already know what I'm going to say about it.

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I have a history of not liking the historical stories very much.

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Is this the point at which I should go on a 15 year?

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It's about how much I hate the massacre.

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No, all right.

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And but there are some stories that I really like. essentially the

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stories that I like are the Romans, the myth makers and the

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gunfighters.

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And I've said why before.

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Donald Cotton.

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Donald Cotton.

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Some Donald or Dennis or something.

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And it is to do with getting the doctor and his friends and

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dumping them in into a story, an existing story with very strong

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tropes.

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Yeah, well, this one's just all tropes, tropes.

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Tropes, tropes, tropes.

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Isn't it?

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you know, this is the mythmakers again.

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This is where Par, Prime, and the old one realises his sons have

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got him into a war he shouldn't be getting into.

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This one could so easily have been Shane gunfight at the okay.

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Well, high noon.

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All those Westerns.

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You know what?

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The Peter Hanning review, Agore, the Jeremy Ben...

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No, and you did a beautiful reading last time.

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This is so this is outrageous.

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This is something that wasn't, can I just say, can we guess that

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maybe this wasn't loved by the fans of the, look, it's been said a

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lot of times before.

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The gunfighters had a really poor reputation among fandom.

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But then when we had the opportunity to actually see it.

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And I don't know when it got a VHS release.

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It was very late on.

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It came out as one of the final William Hartnell stories.

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There was a box set of 3 videotapes and it was...

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It was a leftover, no one gives a crap collection.

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Well, almost.

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It was the sensor rights and the gunfighters, but it was also the

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time meddler because the print of the time medal was so rough it

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took them ages to release it.

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Yeah, okay, yeah.

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But with the other 2 it was these 2 stories are unloved.

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Well, and I read, I read wife in space talking about gunfighters

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and they were watching a VHS version, and Neil says that the DVD

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version was, you know, yet to be released, that they might watch

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it again.

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And so, you know, it's kind of unloved.

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And part of the reason it's unloved is because people didn't

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really get the chance to see it.

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And, again, we've quoted this before.

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This is Peter Haning's book, Doctor Who Celebration, published in

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1983, and really the only source that any of us had at the time to

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know what this was about.

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And here's the final paragraph.

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And can you do a...

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Oh, okay, and echo effect on.

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It was not good.

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It was bad and it was ugly.

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That's really all I'm doing.

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That's so terrible, isn't it?

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But the egg effect does...

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Does make it sound like the voice of God.

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Oh, no, he just says, you know, the serial is poor.

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It was massacre of the okay chorale.

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You know, the British can't do Westerns, blah, blah, blah, blah

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blah.

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But I mean, the fact of the matter is, this is an extraordinarily

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strong story, a really, really entertaining one right from the get

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go.

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So suddenly.

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Yeah, exactly.

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It's really funny.

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Suddenly, in fact, he's completely wrong about the production.

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It looks amazing.

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When are they shooting this?

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Like that opening scene.

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You know, you're under a cart or something and there's a horse

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trough and the camera moves up and you get Linda Barron's song and

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it's a street and there's like shop fronts and stuff.

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It's this massive set that they're riding horses around.

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So it looks spectacular.

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You can certainly see why Rex Tucker was the caretaker producer

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possibly the really the producer of Doctor Who before Verity

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Lambert came into the picture and he sort of departed for various

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reasons.

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So this it becomes his only official involvement in the program.

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But you can see that he is a very competent director.

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Both of the vision of the episode.

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And there's lots of experimental shots.

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He shoots through mirrors to get certain shots in the bar.

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There's actually a panel in behind the bar that folds open so we

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can shoot a mirror so we can get a certain angle.

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Right.

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And, you know, he shoots the death of Charlie from a mirror

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suspended above so you can see him sprawled across the bottom.

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And it's an awful scene, isn't it?

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Like that's a terrible shot.

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But also, and I am going to say that Mr. Haning is right on one

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thing in that the accents are of variable quality, but the actual

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performance...

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Unlike dodo's accent, you know.

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And she's actually from that country.

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That was leading to a compliment.

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The performances.

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The actors' performances and intention are very good.

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Absolute.

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There, you know, there is not a single character that I would

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point to and say, you're, you know, you're not giving this your

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all.

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Everyone.

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And, you know, one of the, um, the lesser Clanton brothers decides

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yeah, I don't have very much to do.

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So I'm going to give my character a stutter.

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And it really, it really elevates him and makes him a memorable

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character.

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So when he does get locked up later in the story, those scenes are

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actually interesting because, you know, he's...

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No, I can't keep the Clanton straight in my head.

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No, no, no.

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But, um, it's Ike and Phineas Clanton and Billy Clanton and...

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Warren is...

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Warren Earp is...

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Well, there's Warren.

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Well, he's going to Warren against who gets shot.

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It is hard to keep track of all the characters.

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If they does stick to the history as far as we know.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's divergent.

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There's divergent history.

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It is to me.

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But, but the, and the fun thing, I think, too, is like we're

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having fun because we recognise the, the, um, tropes.

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So we're kind of having fun.

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But they're having fun as well.

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And so the moment, you know, they come out of the TARDIS.

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They get old Dodo and Stephen rush back in.

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They realise where they are.

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They rush back in and they put on cowboy outfits and cowgirl

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outfits, but sort of preposterous camp.

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That's right.

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And in a sense, that actually works quite well because, by

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contrast, the cowboys, who are sort of slightly fake and not sort

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of massively convincing.

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They also want accents from one episode to another.

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Yeah, that's kind of fun.

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That's sporting.

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But it's like, oh, that's what Shane River's doing. next week.

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Meanwhile, Shane Rimmer's going, oh, that's what William Handel's

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doing. that next week.

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So it points up that they don't really belong in this world.

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They're not kind of fitted to it.

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And it makes the cowboys, who could have been slightly crummy

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actually appear a bit more real and dangerous because they go into

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this world.

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They've got guns and they're sort of being silly and, you know

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terribly excited and Steven's wearing sort of satin and tassels

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and all sorts of stuff.

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So it is sort of, you know, he's camping it up.

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And what they don't realise is that they're in a situation where

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there's very real danger.

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And this is a world where guns, you know, we've talked about guns

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before and it's going to come up again, but this whole thing ends

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in a giant gunfight.

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We promised it by the song, you know, very early on.

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Um, this is, uh, you know, this isn't the kind of world that

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they're sort of suited for.

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But the whole thing is sort of played for comic effects and it

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is...

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This is the 1st time since 1st season that Billy really gets into

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it.

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He's really entered one of Hartnell's things.

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He wanted to do a cowboy, an Indian.

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And the thing we forget, just like Patrick Magoon when he made the

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prisoner a couple of years later, wanted to do a Western trope, I

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could believe is the word you used, in that it was a big thing

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just as for us, I guess, post-Star Wars. sci-fi stuff is a big

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thing.

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It was for them.

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It was the go to default.

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External drama.

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Yeah, yeah.

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No, no, no.

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I mean it was huge.

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I mean, it was massive in Star Trek, this one and all of that sort

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of thing.

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But it's the thing that you go and see, you know, on, you know, at

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the movies and that sort of thing, that's the action adventure

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genre that people go to.

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So it is huge and it is the 1st time the BBC ever attempts.

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And they were a bit nervous about it.

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Because, you know, the bar was set by John Houston and films like

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The Searchers and we've mentioned high noon.

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We've mentioned that.

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Actually, does that make Dodo the Grace Kelly part in this?

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Only their mothers could tell them a part.

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Yeah, so anyway.

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So, and we go, we go from, we go from that incredible comedy to

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that fantastic scene between the doctor and Doc Holiday, because

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what we haven't mentioned is that the celestial toymaker.

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I'm trying to expunge that from my memory.

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Did Billy Bunter give him some poison toffee or something?

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Yeah, yeah.

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He had these sweets, which he gave the whole bag to dodo, but she

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didn't have any.

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So she offered them to the doctor.

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And the doctor breaks his twos.

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And so the doctor has to go to a dentist.

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And so he goes to Doc Holiday and, you know, Doc, there's all that

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business with the drink, you know, the doctor's like, oh, I never

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touch the stuff.

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And Doc Holiday says, oh, I do, and he starts getting drunk

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because it's like his first.

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And Billy just gives him the whole sort of Llana from Archer side

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00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:40.139
eye.

254
00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:41.519
Like, are you really doing that?

255
00:11:42.419 --> 00:11:47.340
Yeah, I mean, it's, and getting back to something we've been

256
00:11:47.340 --> 00:11:50.519
talking about for the last 3 podcasts, Doctor Who stops being so

257
00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:50.940
nasty.

258
00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.000
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

259
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.919
People kind of go, you know, why why do Stephen and Dodo rush off

260
00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:01.860
into this dangerous environment is because compared to what

261
00:12:01.860 --> 00:12:04.679
they've had over the last few weeks with Stephen being chased by

262
00:12:04.679 --> 00:12:07.440
Daleks and everyone he meets on the course of that being killed

263
00:12:07.440 --> 00:12:12.419
and them releasing a plague upon the human race and the massacre

264
00:12:12.419 --> 00:12:16.259
of Saint Bartholomew's Eve named after the event at which it

265
00:12:16.259 --> 00:12:16.919
didn't take place?

266
00:12:16.980 --> 00:12:17.580
Shush.

267
00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:21.600
And, and, you know, the celestial toymaker and electrical laws.

268
00:12:21.659 --> 00:12:25.019
They're finally, it's this environment.

269
00:12:25.080 --> 00:12:29.100
It's like a watery oasis in the middle of a desert.

270
00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:31.860
Of course they're going to just jump in and go, yeah, this is

271
00:12:31.860 --> 00:12:32.340
brilliant.

272
00:12:32.399 --> 00:12:35.340
And then of course, by the end of episode one, go, oh, actually

273
00:12:35.340 --> 00:12:36.299
we're in hideous danger.

274
00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:39.240
Well, they're actually fans of Westerns themselves too.

275
00:12:39.299 --> 00:12:41.639
I always wanted to be a cowboy.

276
00:12:41.700 --> 00:12:42.840
I always wanted to be a cowgirl.

277
00:12:42.899 --> 00:12:44.879
Like, they've clearly watched them at the movies or whatever.

278
00:12:44.940 --> 00:12:49.200
So, or what do you have in the future where Stephen comes from

279
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.179
holographic brain implants or something.

280
00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:53.159
But they're watching Western ones of those.

281
00:12:53.220 --> 00:12:56.159
So they're excited by this.

282
00:12:56.220 --> 00:12:59.279
And then we have the scene with the doctor and Doc Holiday, and

283
00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.820
there we have like just about my favourite cliffhanger ever, which

284
00:13:02.820 --> 00:13:05.399
is the doctor walking along.

285
00:13:05.460 --> 00:13:09.360
But like we've got Stephen and Dodo, they're in the thing, they're

286
00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:13.620
being forced by the Clantons to play Linda Baron song and they're

287
00:13:13.620 --> 00:13:17.159
doing that and like Dodo's discovered how to play the piano shit.

288
00:13:17.220 --> 00:13:22.919
Vicki probably left some pills, you know, the how to play the

289
00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.799
piano course that she did at nursery school, you know.

290
00:13:25.860 --> 00:13:27.240
So they've been left in the town.

291
00:13:27.299 --> 00:13:28.440
She can suddenly play the piano.

292
00:13:28.500 --> 00:13:31.679
Stephen singing the song, which is just sort of spectacular and

293
00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:32.100
wonderful.

294
00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.039
The Clantons are all waiting for Doc Holiday to come along because

295
00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:35.759
they're going to kill him.

296
00:13:35.820 --> 00:13:40.320
Dog holiday has tricked the doctor into taking on his identity.

297
00:13:40.379 --> 00:13:43.919
He's clutching his face because he said his tooth out, and he's

298
00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.980
got a gun, which is kind of going, why do I have a gun?

299
00:13:47.039 --> 00:13:48.480
and he's kind of walking along.

300
00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:50.159
And then it sort of bades out.

301
00:13:50.220 --> 00:13:53.519
It's kind of low key, but there's danger and comedy and just

302
00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:54.240
everything in it.

303
00:13:54.299 --> 00:13:57.299
I think it's I think it's a real, real high point.

304
00:13:57.360 --> 00:13:59.940
I think at this point we should talk about the song.

305
00:14:00.179 --> 00:14:03.000
Which permeates the entire story.

306
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.259
I'm going to go out there and start off by saying, I think it's a

307
00:14:07.259 --> 00:14:09.600
very good idea because again, it's one of the tropes of the

308
00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:10.019
Western.

309
00:14:10.019 --> 00:14:13.980
And it's used to pretty good effects.

310
00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:15.059
Occasionally it doesn't work.

311
00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:20.519
There's a bit in, I think, it's episode 3 or 4 where Johnny Ringo

312
00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.480
finds Kate and the verse actually goes, Johnny Ringo has found

313
00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:24.779
her.

314
00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:26.460
Johnny Ringo's found Kate.

315
00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.139
Johnny Ringo has seen her.

316
00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:31.799
Right, so the last 3 lines. exactly the same thing.

317
00:14:31.860 --> 00:14:33.240
And it happens a couple of times.

318
00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.980
Other times it's very witty.

319
00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:37.559
Like, he's gone kind of mental from Earth's heavy blow.

320
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.200
You know, that's that's quite good.

321
00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:43.440
And the verse about Charlie the Barman dying.

322
00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:46.740
But yeah, I think that just seems like some sometimes Tristram

323
00:14:46.740 --> 00:14:50.100
Carey is just sitting at his kitchen table at one AM going, I just

324
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:50.940
want to finish this.

325
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:53.639
It is, but that's terrific too.

326
00:14:53.700 --> 00:14:56.759
And Charlie gets killed by Johnny Ringo. when does Johnny Ringo

327
00:14:56.759 --> 00:14:57.120
come in?

328
00:14:57.120 --> 00:14:57.960
Episode 3 or four.

329
00:14:58.019 --> 00:14:59.519
It must be episode three.

330
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:00.059
Yes.

331
00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.259
And it's slightly like the myth makers in that it's all sort of

332
00:15:04.259 --> 00:15:05.100
fun and frolics.

333
00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:06.779
And then someone's killed.

334
00:15:06.840 --> 00:15:08.279
And then it all ends in a sort of giant.

335
00:15:08.399 --> 00:15:09.600
This is the thing.

336
00:15:09.659 --> 00:15:10.679
We've got another story.

337
00:15:10.740 --> 00:15:14.820
Just as the Westerns, you know, in 1960, you had 35 different TV

338
00:15:14.820 --> 00:15:18.600
American made TV series of Westerns around the world.

339
00:15:18.659 --> 00:15:21.480
Australian Britain can get all of them, but we certainly got the

340
00:15:21.480 --> 00:15:22.440
best of the best of them.

341
00:15:22.500 --> 00:15:24.179
But by the mid 60s.

342
00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:26.580
There were shows like the Wild, Wild West.

343
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:27.360
Do you know about that one?

344
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:28.559
which was a spoof.

345
00:15:28.620 --> 00:15:31.080
They made an awful film version of the year, Will Smith.

346
00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:33.000
But it was kind of a send-up of Westerns.

347
00:15:33.059 --> 00:15:35.399
Well, you were getting things like Sergio Leone making his

348
00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.059
spaghetti Westerns with those beautiful Enio Morricone scores, but

349
00:15:39.059 --> 00:15:43.080
they were looking at it a bit sideways, as in a kind of true grist

350
00:15:43.139 --> 00:15:44.279
probably the best one of them.

351
00:15:44.340 --> 00:15:47.580
It was starting to be seen as something tawdry and sad and lost.

352
00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:49.139
It was looking at ancient history.

353
00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.519
It was the Middle Ages already.

354
00:15:50.580 --> 00:15:53.039
So something that's not just a 100 years ago.

355
00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:56.340
Yeah, 5 years, it was all now spies in space.

356
00:15:56.399 --> 00:15:57.480
Yeah, right.

357
00:15:57.539 --> 00:16:00.419
So doing a Western was a kind of tongue in cheek thing.

358
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.000
Again, this is almost another mythmakers where it starts off

359
00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:03.720
really jolly.

360
00:16:03.779 --> 00:16:07.320
You kind of know, again, with the people we've got on screen.

361
00:16:07.379 --> 00:16:08.580
It's Dodo and Stephen.

362
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.440
Something horrible is going to happen to just about bloody

363
00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:10.860
everyone.

364
00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.220
And it is also because we kind of know that the okay Corral and

365
00:16:14.220 --> 00:16:17.639
the gunfight, but it is also because Linda Barron is singing about

366
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.399
it right from the get-go, we know that it's sort of leading up to

367
00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:20.580
that.

368
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:24.299
And then Johnny Ringo comes in and shoots Charlie the barman and

369
00:16:24.299 --> 00:16:26.340
then it sort of starts to get a bit nasty.

370
00:16:26.399 --> 00:16:31.320
And all of those deaths, the deaths that all happen all get

371
00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:33.899
commemorated in her song as well.

372
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.980
Yeah, we don't we don't just get to, and and we, you know, Charlie

373
00:16:37.980 --> 00:16:41.039
the Barman is lying dead on the bar while we get a whole verse of

374
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:44.159
it, you know, and he's been kind of sweet and he's sort of

375
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.340
starstruck when he meets Johnny Ringo and, you know, like kind of

376
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:48.299
excited and stuff.

377
00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:50.340
And that's all sort of really quite horrible.

378
00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:52.440
So there's sort of darkness to it.

379
00:16:52.500 --> 00:16:58.679
But I just don't feel like grindingly, you know, it's not so...

380
00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:01.019
The tone is far better balanced than in the myth makers.

381
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:01.799
Yeah.

382
00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:06.779
And I think the Mythmakers is a better script, but I think

383
00:17:06.779 --> 00:17:10.799
gunfighters balances its excesses better.

384
00:17:10.859 --> 00:17:14.099
I think, I mean, it's hard to tell and maybe I would like the myth

385
00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:17.099
makers more if it existed and it wasn't just a slide show.

386
00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.880
But the production of this is so great and everyone's so funny.

387
00:17:20.940 --> 00:17:22.500
Stephen is hilarious.

388
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:24.779
Dodo gets some great bits like that.

389
00:17:24.779 --> 00:17:27.720
I've always finally been playing exactly in the right space, you

390
00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:29.339
know, outside of any expectations.

391
00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.559
You don't need a back character to do this.

392
00:17:31.619 --> 00:17:32.640
Just like Stephen doesn't.

393
00:17:32.700 --> 00:17:35.519
Jackie Lane is actually really, really good.

394
00:17:35.579 --> 00:17:36.539
They're all having fun.

395
00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:40.259
I would say she's got better comic timing than Peter Purpose.

396
00:17:40.319 --> 00:17:41.700
She is really funny in it.

397
00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.019
She is terrific.

398
00:17:43.079 --> 00:17:45.720
She was well respected before she got into Doctor Who, so...

399
00:17:46.859 --> 00:17:50.339
She's got that wonderful bit where she pulls the gun on Doc

400
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:50.700
Holiday.

401
00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:53.519
Yeah, and then she faints.

402
00:17:53.579 --> 00:17:57.000
Yeah, well, she faints when she realises he had a gun and could

403
00:17:57.000 --> 00:17:57.779
have killed her at any moment.

404
00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.519
So, you know, it's it's still allowing her to be a vulnerable

405
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:03.119
character.

406
00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:06.960
But giving her strength, like they used to do with Vicky and like

407
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.680
has really hasn't happened to Dodo until this point.

408
00:18:10.740 --> 00:18:14.519
She's also the only one of the 3 leads involved in the gunfight at

409
00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:14.759
the end.

410
00:18:14.819 --> 00:18:16.380
That's true actually.

411
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:17.940
Yeah, where does Billy go?

412
00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:18.720
He kind of.

413
00:18:18.779 --> 00:18:20.220
Well, Billy's out at the Clanton farm.

414
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:21.900
He goes there to try and stop them.

415
00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:22.680
But they've already left.

416
00:18:22.740 --> 00:18:23.400
Weirdly.

417
00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:23.940
Yeah.

418
00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:30.299
And he, he was filmed arriving at the, at the aftermath of the

419
00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:35.279
gunfight with Park Lantern, and Park Lantern tries to attack Wyatt

420
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:40.380
Earp, and Kate, the song, the songstress saves him, and stops him

421
00:18:40.380 --> 00:18:42.539
and says, look, it's pointless, your sons are dead, et cetera.

422
00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:43.319
But they cut that bit.

423
00:18:43.380 --> 00:18:45.240
They decided we'll end on the feet.

424
00:18:45.299 --> 00:18:49.859
You know, the famous feet standing together of Doc Holiday and

425
00:18:49.859 --> 00:18:51.359
White Earp and what have you.

426
00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:55.200
And it is, I mean, it does have the, it does commit the sin that

427
00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:57.900
other historicals commit, which is to make the doctor peripheral

428
00:18:57.900 --> 00:18:58.380
to the action.

429
00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:03.960
And so the doctor kind of has to escape at the end, really, rather

430
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:08.579
than doing anything to resolve anything, so, you know, as the

431
00:19:08.579 --> 00:19:12.779
story, as the show moves into something where it's about the

432
00:19:12.779 --> 00:19:16.799
doctor as a hero and the doctor sort of doing things, you know

433
00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.920
like historicals become increasingly problematic.

434
00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:20.579
Yeah, yeah.

435
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:23.400
I mean, he does learn how to solve incidents, you know, after

436
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:26.160
being mistaken for Doc Holiday through it, he does finally

437
00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:29.819
continue Doc's habit of smacking dodo on the bum.

438
00:19:31.380 --> 00:19:35.640
Yeah, because they give them a they give them a wanted poster at

439
00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:35.940
the end.

440
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.180
Like, here's a superior in the old West and Dodo says something

441
00:19:39.180 --> 00:19:41.940
and he just smacks her on the bomb to give her into the TARDIS

442
00:19:41.940 --> 00:19:43.500
with the thing, not with his hand.

443
00:19:43.500 --> 00:19:44.039
Not with his hand.

444
00:19:44.099 --> 00:19:44.460
No.

445
00:19:44.519 --> 00:19:47.519
He doesn't give her a good, jolly good smack.

446
00:19:47.579 --> 00:19:48.839
But, you know, it's...

447
00:19:48.839 --> 00:19:51.480
It's the kind of thing you can imagine one of the modern doctors.

448
00:19:51.480 --> 00:19:53.099
Carrying on in the time.

449
00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:56.579
Perhaps not Peter Capaldi. you know, by the time this podcast goes

450
00:19:56.579 --> 00:19:59.759
out, we will have had 3 or 4 Peter Capaldi episodes.

451
00:19:59.819 --> 00:20:00.839
We will have.

452
00:20:00.900 --> 00:20:02.700
We'll be old hands.

453
00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.960
We'll be sick of him When's the next guy coming?

454
00:20:07.019 --> 00:20:08.099
We'll have to get t-shirts.

455
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:09.779
Come back, Matt Smith.

456
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.740
That's in the next podcast.

457
00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:14.640
Yeah, so what else do we have?

458
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:18.240
It's much, much better than people give it credit for.

459
00:20:18.299 --> 00:20:22.140
So long as so long as you kind of accept that as much as it is the

460
00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:24.660
Western in itself, it's also sending up the Western side.

461
00:20:24.720 --> 00:20:25.619
And look who's making it.

462
00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.599
Donald Coughman's writing and Rex Tucker.

463
00:20:27.660 --> 00:20:31.319
Rex Tucker for an hour was the producer of the 1st six.

464
00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:32.400
Yeah, you know.

465
00:20:32.460 --> 00:20:34.920
Oh no, I think it's, I really think it's spectacular.

466
00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:37.680
It's one of my absolute favourite heart andals. seeing it again in

467
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:38.099
context.

468
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:41.339
It was so nice to see a story where the doctor wasn't in some way

469
00:20:41.339 --> 00:20:44.519
sidelined or wasn't horribly uncomfortable.

470
00:20:44.579 --> 00:20:48.779
And where he's enjoying himself, like he's doing some great comedy

471
00:20:48.779 --> 00:20:49.500
acting.

472
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.740
He's, you know, fun and funny and all sorts of things.

473
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:53.519
I really like him.

474
00:20:53.579 --> 00:20:57.119
I think I've just read what Rod had to say about the gunfighters

475
00:20:57.180 --> 00:21:00.119
hated it today. hated it.

476
00:21:00.180 --> 00:21:01.079
So what did he say?

477
00:21:01.140 --> 00:21:04.559
He agreed with me that the song was everything that just

478
00:21:04.559 --> 00:21:04.980
happened.

479
00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:06.900
I just saw that, you stupid woman.

480
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:10.079
He also, he also...

481
00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:11.940
Nurse Gladys Emanuel, he's saying.

482
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.720
He also he also said, I have nothing against Linda Baron, but why

483
00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.359
did she, why did she not lose her voice and Julie Andrews did?

484
00:21:20.819 --> 00:21:24.059
However, there was one really good scene for Dodo.

485
00:21:24.119 --> 00:21:25.799
It was very nice to see Stephen in chaps.

486
00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:27.779
He does that.

487
00:21:27.779 --> 00:21:28.500
You know what that means.

488
00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:32.460
He does fancy Stephen quite quite a bit.

489
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:35.519
So past comments about Steve and I hadn't mentioned until now.

490
00:21:35.579 --> 00:21:40.500
Rod said that he actually had the striped top that Stephen had, but

491
00:21:40.500 --> 00:21:43.799
he had it in the 1970s and he said he looked much better in it

492
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:44.819
than Stephen did.

493
00:21:44.819 --> 00:21:47.400
And Stephen didn't look too bad in it either.

494
00:21:47.460 --> 00:21:51.480
And also, apparently, way, way back in the massacre.

495
00:21:51.539 --> 00:21:53.880
And this is something you may want to watch it for again.

496
00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:59.579
Stephen's showy outfit left nothing to the imagination.

497
00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.019
I'm quite impressed.

498
00:22:01.380 --> 00:22:06.000
Yeah, even that is not going to make me rewatch that, I can tell

499
00:22:06.000 --> 00:22:06.299
you that.

500
00:22:06.779 --> 00:22:12.720
But I think I think it's time to leave Tombstone.

501
00:22:12.779 --> 00:22:13.380
Goodbye.

502
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.480
Yes, and a jolly good smack bottom to everyone.

503
00:22:15.539 --> 00:22:17.400
It's really worth watching.

504
00:22:17.460 --> 00:22:19.140
It's thoroughly enjoyable and funny.

505
00:22:19.200 --> 00:22:24.059
Just like those little segue stories in Star Trek next generation

506
00:22:24.059 --> 00:22:26.819
where they do a fistful of data.

507
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.259
Well, a rain, exactly.

508
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:30.900
I was going to say, or a Raymond Chandler with one when they do

509
00:22:30.900 --> 00:22:32.640
the... the royale.

510
00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:33.420
Yeah, exactly.

511
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.299
The big goodbye, the long...

512
00:22:36.299 --> 00:22:36.480
Yes.

513
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:40.440
But whenever they go into standard Arza styles of storytelling.

514
00:22:40.500 --> 00:22:41.039
Yeah, exactly.

515
00:22:41.099 --> 00:22:43.559
And you can just see the whole cast having a whole lot of fun and

516
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.359
everyone, in fact, feeling like they're on holiday.

517
00:22:45.420 --> 00:22:46.440
This one does that.

518
00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:47.819
It's got a sterling cast.

519
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:50.819
It's got David Graham and Shane Rimmer straight from finishing

520
00:22:50.819 --> 00:22:54.000
their final voice recordings for Thunderbirds and then 2 weeks

521
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:54.599
later.

522
00:22:54.720 --> 00:22:55.740
Dalek, isn't he?

523
00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:56.640
also a dark.

524
00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:57.660
So we own him many times.

525
00:22:57.779 --> 00:23:00.359
And then you've got Lawrence...

526
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.240
Lawrence Payne, Lawrence Payne, who's Johnny Bingo, who's

527
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:03.539
fabulous.

528
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:05.700
Do you know who was actually originally cast for that role, but

529
00:23:05.700 --> 00:23:06.420
they couldn't get him?

530
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:08.039
And he turns up in Doctor Who later on.

531
00:23:08.099 --> 00:23:11.640
Oh, a little old actor called Patrick Troughton.

532
00:23:11.700 --> 00:23:13.380
Oh, really?

533
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:14.039
Really?

534
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:15.359
Yes, that would have been amazing.

535
00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:16.559
Yeah, 1st cast.

536
00:23:17.279 --> 00:23:21.119
And interestingly about Lawrence Payne, because by the time

537
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:23.759
Lawrence Payne reappears in Doctor Who in the 80s, he'd retired

538
00:23:23.759 --> 00:23:24.180
from acting.

539
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:26.519
He did play in Westerns legitimately.

540
00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:27.720
Yeah, absolutely.

541
00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:28.500
With an accent.

542
00:23:28.559 --> 00:23:29.579
He's actually good.

543
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:30.420
Well, that's the thing.

544
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:31.740
He doesn't try to put on an accent.

545
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:33.480
Well, he sort of does.

546
00:23:33.539 --> 00:23:36.420
No, he's compared compared to the other, he sort of puts... not as

547
00:23:36.420 --> 00:23:37.920
terrible as anyone else's, but it's not good.

548
00:23:37.980 --> 00:23:40.799
It's like someone once showed him that if I'm wrong, but I think

549
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:41.339
he's a yank.

550
00:23:41.460 --> 00:23:43.380
Oh, I don't know.

551
00:23:43.440 --> 00:23:47.220
But you see, I had heard he'd retired because he had an eye injury

552
00:23:47.220 --> 00:23:50.819
and lost most of the vision in one eye, but that had already

553
00:23:50.819 --> 00:23:51.539
happened at this point.

554
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.500
Oh really?

555
00:23:52.559 --> 00:23:54.000
It was during a sword fight.

556
00:23:54.059 --> 00:23:54.720
Wow.

557
00:23:54.720 --> 00:23:56.880
I think he much took a sword to the eye.

558
00:23:56.940 --> 00:23:59.819
And yeah, lost most of the vision in one eye.

559
00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:02.099
I think that's why Dastari wears those glasses.

560
00:24:02.160 --> 00:24:06.420
Yeah, as he as he got older, I believe he needed the glasses in

561
00:24:06.420 --> 00:24:07.559
the Spanish sunshine.

562
00:24:07.619 --> 00:24:09.720
So they retroactively applied it.

563
00:24:09.779 --> 00:24:13.440
But yeah, I mean, he...

564
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:16.799
And he's, we should mention, we should mention that Lot mentioned

565
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:20.700
that Lawrence Payne had also played Athos in Rex Tucker's 1950s

566
00:24:20.700 --> 00:24:22.440
version of the 3 Musketeers.

567
00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:24.000
That's where he got his injury, believe.

568
00:24:24.059 --> 00:24:25.980
Yeah, and Portos was Paul Whitson Jones.

569
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:27.720
Do you think Peter Capaldi was in that version as well?

570
00:24:28.559 --> 00:24:30.900
All with son Jones.

571
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:33.960
Imagine seeing him with a sabre, you know?

572
00:24:34.019 --> 00:24:35.460
The Brian Blessed of his day.

573
00:24:37.980 --> 00:24:40.559
Did you know who Aramis was in that one?

574
00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:42.240
Nope, Roger Delgado.

575
00:24:42.299 --> 00:24:43.619
We've got to find it somewhere.

576
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:44.640
I don't think exists.

577
00:24:44.700 --> 00:24:47.880
You know, I think some real luminary talents in this.

578
00:24:47.940 --> 00:24:49.859
Yeah, it's probably done on film.

579
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.039
If anyone knows, please, let us know.

580
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.140
I mean, we may find it before we find it.

581
00:24:55.619 --> 00:25:01.799
I actually think Lawrence Payne is possibly he's probably equal

582
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:04.440
with Anthony Jacobs in terms of the best guest performance in this

583
00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:04.619
story.

584
00:25:04.680 --> 00:25:05.880
Yeah, he is really good.

585
00:25:05.880 --> 00:25:08.339
And it is, I'm not sure that it's because he gets the accent

586
00:25:08.339 --> 00:25:08.640
right.

587
00:25:08.700 --> 00:25:11.519
I think it is because he's playing it in a different way.

588
00:25:11.579 --> 00:25:16.380
So the Clantons and Doc Holiday are playing it big, do you know

589
00:25:16.380 --> 00:25:16.859
what I mean?

590
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:20.880
And he comes in and sort of plays against that, in order to be

591
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:21.480
more menacing.

592
00:25:21.539 --> 00:25:22.500
Yeah, yeah.

593
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:24.960
And so like his accent is still not great.

594
00:25:25.019 --> 00:25:28.859
But his performance is really striking.

595
00:25:28.920 --> 00:25:32.819
He makes me think of a classic from my childhood, which is who

596
00:25:32.819 --> 00:25:33.900
framed Roger Rabbit?

597
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:35.039
Oh, God.

598
00:25:35.099 --> 00:25:37.440
Why is that from your childhood, Brendan?

599
00:25:37.500 --> 00:25:40.500
But the villain, the villain who turns up in that. sort of

600
00:25:40.500 --> 00:25:42.779
everyone's playing it at one level, and then Christopher Lloyd is

601
00:25:42.779 --> 00:25:46.380
a villain comes in and he is just completely, he's still cartoony

602
00:25:46.380 --> 00:25:47.940
but he's just completely dark and evil.

603
00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.140
And that's what Johnny Ringo's like. sort of the Clantons and

604
00:25:52.140 --> 00:25:53.759
versus holiday.

605
00:25:53.819 --> 00:25:56.579
There's a bit of jovial fun in there and, you know, they want to

606
00:25:56.579 --> 00:25:59.160
kill him, but they want to have a laugh along with it, whereas

607
00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:01.259
Johnny Ringo is just, no, you've called me here to kill someone.

608
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:03.359
Don't muck about.

609
00:26:03.420 --> 00:26:04.079
We're gonna do this.

610
00:26:04.140 --> 00:26:09.000
And as you say, that's so effective because both styles are still

611
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:10.799
utterly believable in this context.

612
00:26:10.859 --> 00:26:14.519
And I think just before we move on, it's worth mentioning, of

613
00:26:14.519 --> 00:26:16.680
course, Anthony Jacob's other connection to Doctor Who.

614
00:26:16.740 --> 00:26:22.019
His son, Matthew Jacobs, wrote the script for the Paul McGain.

615
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:24.420
Yeah, yeah, and he was on the set.

616
00:26:24.420 --> 00:26:26.279
And I've seen an interview with him.

617
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:28.259
And what's the 8th doctor where his costume does he wear?

618
00:26:28.380 --> 00:26:30.180
Well, Bill Hickock.

619
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.480
Yeah.

620
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.920
Spoiler alert, I really hate that.

621
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:41.640
Okay, well, we'll tell you more about it in 2016 or...

622
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.640
Oh, by the way, did I mention that?

623
00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:49.980
Well, moving on to something that I think spoiler alert, we're all

624
00:26:49.980 --> 00:26:50.519
going to enjoy.

625
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:51.539
It's the savages.

626
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:52.380
I think we are.

627
00:26:58.440 --> 00:26:59.940
Like the score.

628
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.759
Yeah, isn't the score weird?

629
00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:04.500
It's got all these strings.

630
00:27:04.559 --> 00:27:06.779
It's like, do you remember it, Brendan?

631
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:08.819
It's really extraordinary.

632
00:27:08.880 --> 00:27:09.599
It's like nothing.

633
00:27:09.720 --> 00:27:11.039
Who is it, Richard, do you know?

634
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:15.539
It's very, very strange and very different from whatever we've

635
00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:16.019
heard before.

636
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:19.619
And so, I mean, there are some things here that we've never seen

637
00:27:19.619 --> 00:27:20.460
before.

638
00:27:20.940 --> 00:27:24.599
Well, I mean, let's talk about this. the status of the story

639
00:27:24.599 --> 00:27:24.900
first.

640
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:25.740
It doesn't exist.

641
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.740
It doesn't exist. right towards the end of series three.

642
00:27:28.799 --> 00:27:30.779
Nearly no one's seen it.

643
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:31.680
Do you know what I mean?

644
00:27:31.740 --> 00:27:33.839
Like, it's really forgotten.

645
00:27:33.900 --> 00:27:40.980
I had I had not seen the recon or heard the audio until I washed

646
00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:42.000
it with God.

647
00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:44.819
It was the 1st story that he had seen for the 1st time that I had

648
00:27:44.819 --> 00:27:45.839
also seen for the 1st time.

649
00:27:45.900 --> 00:27:47.279
So it's very interesting in that regard.

650
00:27:47.339 --> 00:27:50.339
Well, I mean, I've had that experience just sort of recently with

651
00:27:50.339 --> 00:27:52.319
a few things I'd never seen the Myth Makers before.

652
00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:53.819
I had never seen Marco Polo before.

653
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:56.579
You know, there's heaps of stuff that I'm now seeing for the 1st

654
00:27:56.579 --> 00:27:56.880
time.

655
00:27:56.940 --> 00:28:00.960
But the savages was one that where I didn't really have any idea

656
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:02.640
of what I was supposed to think about it.

657
00:28:02.700 --> 00:28:06.000
You know, I didn't really know what the opinion was meant to be.

658
00:28:06.059 --> 00:28:10.140
And certainly I'd heard the plot described and it didn't seem all

659
00:28:10.140 --> 00:28:10.920
that interesting.

660
00:28:10.980 --> 00:28:15.119
But in fact, it actually ends up being really surprisingly

661
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:15.480
strong.

662
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:16.859
I liked it a great deal.

663
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:23.460
And it's kind of a bit of a tonic after the arc to have a story

664
00:28:23.460 --> 00:28:29.640
that is about colonialism or really about any form of oppression.

665
00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:30.779
Do you know what I mean?

666
00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.259
It doesn't have to be about colonely colonialism, although the

667
00:28:34.259 --> 00:28:38.279
race thing, because, you know, we've got blackface.

668
00:28:38.339 --> 00:28:40.619
Well, although he's not actually black, it's sort of orangey

669
00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:41.460
bronze.

670
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:42.720
It's a sort of gold major.

671
00:28:42.779 --> 00:28:45.420
Yeah, yeah, but it's darker. you know, like Frederick.

672
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:49.980
Look, you know, it's the received BBC way of any guy playing

673
00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:50.700
Othello.

674
00:28:50.759 --> 00:28:51.900
Yeah, yeah.

675
00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:52.440
Yeah.

676
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.920
So, you know, that's sort of problematic in modern terms and

677
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:56.160
stuff.

678
00:28:56.220 --> 00:28:58.500
But not everyone is sort of consistently blackface.

679
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.500
Like, Avon, isn't there a character called Avon and his

680
00:29:01.500 --> 00:29:01.980
girlfriend?

681
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:05.940
Like they....

682
00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:08.759
I just looked it up.

683
00:29:08.819 --> 00:29:11.160
Raymond Jones did the music, who also did the music for the

684
00:29:11.160 --> 00:29:11.460
Romans.

685
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:12.359
Okay.

686
00:29:12.420 --> 00:29:14.519
This is really different from the Romans, though.

687
00:29:14.579 --> 00:29:15.960
It's really, really strong.

688
00:29:16.079 --> 00:29:20.519
It's not what this feels to me like, and again, because BBC didn't

689
00:29:20.519 --> 00:29:22.859
get Star Trek until a very late 60s.

690
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:24.059
This feels like an episode of Trek.

691
00:29:24.119 --> 00:29:26.700
It does have a Star Trek sort of feel to it.

692
00:29:26.759 --> 00:29:30.480
Flower children, not withstanding as being obvious, but it does.

693
00:29:30.539 --> 00:29:32.460
That allegorical high concept thing.

694
00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:34.319
Ian Stuart Black will do it again.

695
00:29:34.380 --> 00:29:37.140
I've just watched Macrterra, which I've heard before.

696
00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:42.240
And I think macrater is like a satire of, like it's an attack on

697
00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:42.960
capitalism.

698
00:29:43.019 --> 00:29:47.880
And I think that this is attack on colonialism, but it's blackface

699
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:52.140
and stuff aside, it's unspecific enough for it to be an attack on

700
00:29:52.140 --> 00:29:53.460
oppression generally.

701
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:57.180
And so what you have is the elders and they live off the life

702
00:29:57.180 --> 00:29:58.259
energy of the savages.

703
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:01.500
And whether you interpret that as an allegory for, you know, coming

704
00:30:01.500 --> 00:30:04.440
to their country and enslaving and exploiting them and taking

705
00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:05.039
their resources.

706
00:30:05.099 --> 00:30:09.900
Well, it's old guys sucking the vital juices out of young local

707
00:30:09.900 --> 00:30:10.680
primitives.

708
00:30:10.740 --> 00:30:12.779
Have we mentioned Peter Capelli?

709
00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:15.000
But do you know what I mean?

710
00:30:15.059 --> 00:30:18.000
Like it could be that or it could just be capitalism, you know

711
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.259
like wage slavery or whatever.

712
00:30:19.259 --> 00:30:22.079
Yeah, yeah, yeah. works with any form of oppression.

713
00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:25.200
And like it's, it's, it's done so strongly.

714
00:30:25.259 --> 00:30:29.819
So, so the very 1st episode has Exhaws hunting.

715
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.759
Oh, I want to say Nanina or something.

716
00:30:32.819 --> 00:30:34.980
Uh...

717
00:30:34.980 --> 00:30:37.859
Anyway, pretty gorgeous young woman.

718
00:30:37.980 --> 00:30:39.420
Yeah, she's called Nanina.

719
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.279
It's very...

720
00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:42.240
George Powell again.

721
00:30:42.299 --> 00:30:43.019
She's blonde.

722
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:43.619
Oh, yeah.

723
00:30:43.619 --> 00:30:46.740
She's very blonde, pretty, and, you know, she gets captured and

724
00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:49.440
put in a special machine that takes out her life essence, and

725
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:51.779
we're all vague about that because that's what the allegory is

726
00:30:51.779 --> 00:30:51.960
about.

727
00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:55.980
But she's so horribly traumatised by it. it's like she's begging

728
00:30:55.980 --> 00:31:01.019
not to be... really, really kind of, you know, a bit awful.

729
00:31:01.079 --> 00:31:05.279
And all the elders live in sort of luxury and happiness and, you

730
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:08.279
know, they've achieved a great deal and they're massively leisured

731
00:31:08.279 --> 00:31:11.940
and massively educated and they live in great comfort and they're

732
00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:14.339
super pleased with themselves, you know.

733
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.900
And even the doctor is sort of impressed by their society until he

734
00:31:18.900 --> 00:31:22.319
discovers, you know, in fact, what it's built on.

735
00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:27.240
And we don't see this from Billy enough or very much, but it

736
00:31:27.240 --> 00:31:31.259
becomes Trout and standard operating thing, which is why I think

737
00:31:31.259 --> 00:31:34.079
Macrater is slightly more successful than this at doing the same

738
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:34.380
job.

739
00:31:34.980 --> 00:31:39.720
It's revolution and he wants to overthrow the society sort of

740
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:39.960
thing.

741
00:31:40.319 --> 00:31:44.519
But before he can do that, of course, he's putting the machine.

742
00:31:44.579 --> 00:31:49.680
And his life essence gets taken out by Jane O. he's left in there

743
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.579
for quite a while.

744
00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.200
Does he get a day a week off?

745
00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.660
Well, not quite.

746
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:57.180
There is one episode where he doesn't do much, but he is still

747
00:31:57.180 --> 00:31:59.460
there because there's a little bit of existing footage.

748
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:03.359
It's this whole thing of it's a story that not only manages to

749
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:07.920
give the doctor a really strong moral role to do, but it gives him

750
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:14.880
time to actually be endangered and that gives the narrative a

751
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.759
sense of, okay, no, the doctor's really in danger here and he's

752
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:19.980
having his life has been sucked out and we've seen what that's

753
00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:20.880
done to Nanina.

754
00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:22.140
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

755
00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:25.500
And, of course, that leads to a brilliant performance by Frederick

756
00:32:25.500 --> 00:32:28.319
Yeager, impersonating the doctor, well, impersonating William

757
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:28.920
Hartnold.

758
00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:31.559
Yeah, so Frederick Yeager will...

759
00:32:31.619 --> 00:32:33.180
He'll go on to be in Doctor Who again.

760
00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:36.960
He'll be Sorenson and he'll be Professor Marius, who created K 9.

761
00:32:37.259 --> 00:32:41.279
And he, like, I'm not sure that he's that terrific.

762
00:32:41.339 --> 00:32:44.880
Do you think they were tipping him to actually like it's a

763
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:46.319
recording to see how he would have gone?

764
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:47.519
Yeah, it is.

765
00:32:47.579 --> 00:32:51.240
It is possibly, you know, because...

766
00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:52.799
Don't forget this is Inis Lloyd's story.

767
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:55.980
And yeah, and they're really trying to get rid of experimenting

768
00:32:55.980 --> 00:32:58.079
with things they can do.

769
00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:01.019
So, you know, look, I'm not sure it's a great heart and all that

770
00:33:01.019 --> 00:33:01.319
he does.

771
00:33:01.380 --> 00:33:02.460
But it's sort of passable.

772
00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:06.119
And now that I think about it, it is that thing.

773
00:33:06.180 --> 00:33:07.920
He doesn't get a week off, does he?

774
00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:10.259
Hartnell gets dragged through tunnel.

775
00:33:10.319 --> 00:33:12.059
He's still watching Freddie Yoga as well.

776
00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:15.480
And but he gets he gets dragged through tunnels and he's kind of

777
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.160
incapacitated and he can't act.

778
00:33:17.220 --> 00:33:18.420
He can't do anything.

779
00:33:18.480 --> 00:33:23.039
So he's completely kind of like they really, really suck out his

780
00:33:23.039 --> 00:33:25.500
life essence. sort of a zombie for an episode.

781
00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:29.759
And the thing that happens to Jaino is, of course.

782
00:33:29.819 --> 00:33:31.380
Hello, Su Tech.

783
00:33:31.380 --> 00:33:32.759
Uh, Su Tech.

784
00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.460
J She agrees yes.

785
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:36.779
No, sweetheart.

786
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.779
So what happens to Janeo is a science fiction thing.

787
00:33:39.839 --> 00:33:40.619
Do you know what I mean?

788
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:42.599
Like he feeds on the doctor's life energy.

789
00:33:42.660 --> 00:33:45.420
And he gains a conscience.

790
00:33:45.539 --> 00:33:51.539
He realises that their exploitation of the savages is immoral, all

791
00:33:51.539 --> 00:33:51.839
right?

792
00:33:51.900 --> 00:33:56.279
But I think what's really clever is that there's a parallel story

793
00:33:56.279 --> 00:33:57.240
going on as well.

794
00:33:57.299 --> 00:34:02.759
Because Exorce gets captured by the savages and they're going to

795
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:08.940
kill him and Nanina, whom he had captured and mistreated earlier

796
00:34:08.940 --> 00:34:11.219
intercedes on his behalf.

797
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.519
And because she does something kind.

798
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:15.719
Do you know what I mean?

799
00:34:15.780 --> 00:34:18.719
Even though she had every right to take revenge on him.

800
00:34:18.780 --> 00:34:20.400
He's won over.

801
00:34:20.460 --> 00:34:22.739
Like he's convinced that these are people.

802
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:26.219
And so while there's a kind of slightly stupid science fiction

803
00:34:26.219 --> 00:34:28.860
thing going on to convince Jano to switch sides.

804
00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:33.659
What convinces Exhorce to switch science is the realisation that

805
00:34:33.659 --> 00:34:38.760
the savages are people just like him, that they're not outside the

806
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:41.519
boundaries of his moral concern?

807
00:34:41.579 --> 00:34:44.699
And that's, you know, in order to exploit people in order to

808
00:34:44.699 --> 00:34:45.539
mistreat them.

809
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:48.420
We have to regard, we have to kind of say, well, we have no

810
00:34:48.420 --> 00:34:52.860
responsibility to treat them morally.

811
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.019
And that's what the elders do conspicuously.

812
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:56.880
They regard the savages as animals.

813
00:34:56.940 --> 00:35:00.599
They say that the savages can be exploited.

814
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:06.480
And it's an act of kindness that, you know, that turns things

815
00:35:06.480 --> 00:35:06.960
around.

816
00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:10.320
And I think it's, I think that's terribly clever.

817
00:35:10.380 --> 00:35:14.940
I think had it just been, you know, the magical life essence thing

818
00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:16.320
that would have been slightly more crap.

819
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:21.360
It's just, as you say, it's so the difference, a production team

820
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:25.679
makes, because by now you've got Innis Lloyd as producer, and

821
00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:28.679
Innis Lloyd comes in even quicker than John Wiles came in and just

822
00:35:28.679 --> 00:35:32.639
takes the reins far quicker, and you've got Jerry Davis as well.

823
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:37.800
John Wiles, ideal sci-fi story, if you like, was the arc.

824
00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:38.699
Yeah.

825
00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:42.659
And Innis Lloyd, this isn't even necessarily his ideal sci-fi

826
00:35:42.659 --> 00:35:45.059
story, but his 1st sci-fi story he manages to pull out is this

827
00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:51.719
complex moral allegory about exploitation and about it, so it can

828
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:52.739
be about racism.

829
00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:53.940
It can be about sexism.

830
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:58.320
It can be about all these things and it gives each the regulars

831
00:35:58.320 --> 00:35:59.400
something interesting to do.

832
00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:02.639
It gives the guest cast something interesting to do.

833
00:36:02.699 --> 00:36:07.980
And it's just all of all of a sudden Doctor Who's adult again and

834
00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:14.579
dark and hopeful at the same time rather than suddenly veering

835
00:36:14.579 --> 00:36:16.320
violently between the two.

836
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:19.199
It's s This is really poignant, isn't it?

837
00:36:19.260 --> 00:36:23.820
This is poignant for how Australia is being seen, but not so much

838
00:36:23.820 --> 00:36:28.500
by, I guess, by ourselves, by some of us, but by the rest of the

839
00:36:28.500 --> 00:36:33.539
world, because the allegory of how the elders live in a free state

840
00:36:33.539 --> 00:36:38.340
and see themselves as morally justified is how, can I say it, is

841
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:40.920
how we're treating the asylum seekers coming to Australia by

842
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:41.159
boat.

843
00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:43.920
But it's and look at the way the rest of the world are seeing us

844
00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:44.340
right now.

845
00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:45.840
This is absolutely of the time.

846
00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.579
But it does work for any kind of oppression that you identify.

847
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:51.480
Do you know what I mean?

848
00:36:51.539 --> 00:36:55.500
Like, the starting point is clearly race just because of, uh, yeah

849
00:36:55.500 --> 00:36:58.619
yeah, you know, in Jano, Frederick Jager.

850
00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:02.639
I wanted to say both at the same time, but because he's, because

851
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.340
he's in blackface, you know, there's a race thing, but it does

852
00:37:05.340 --> 00:37:06.179
work with anything.

853
00:37:06.239 --> 00:37:10.800
And I think, like, as I said, I've just watched the macraterra, I

854
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:13.800
think Ian Stewart Black is writing very, very much about

855
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:16.619
capitalism in the macraterra.

856
00:37:16.739 --> 00:37:21.599
And so you've had a program that has been kind of racist and kind

857
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:26.519
of opposed to Vicky and opposed to strong women and like just

858
00:37:26.519 --> 00:37:31.800
slightly politically nasty for a while and now it's Doctor Who

859
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:36.059
again. you know, he incites revolution against oppressive people.

860
00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:40.320
But more than that, he convinces the oppressive people that

861
00:37:40.320 --> 00:37:43.800
they've done the wrong thing, and the whole thing ends with them

862
00:37:43.800 --> 00:37:48.539
taking machines, and smashing up the room, the preparation room

863
00:37:48.539 --> 00:37:51.179
thing, and talking about how much they enjoy it.

864
00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:54.659
Like there's dialogue in there about how much fun it is to smash

865
00:37:54.659 --> 00:37:57.780
smash the system. the system.

866
00:37:57.840 --> 00:38:01.559
So I just think, I think it's a real unsung gem.

867
00:38:01.619 --> 00:38:02.159
Yeah.

868
00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:06.239
And and also that feeds into the departure of Stephen.

869
00:38:06.300 --> 00:38:08.280
Can we talk about Stephen?

870
00:38:08.460 --> 00:38:10.139
I think we should.

871
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:18.000
And arguably, it's the most telegraphed leaving of a Hartnell

872
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:20.219
companion because all the way through.

873
00:38:20.280 --> 00:38:23.219
I mean, because of course, the doctor's incapacitated early on.

874
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:24.840
So Stephen takes the lead once again.

875
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:28.320
And Stephen is talking to people on both sides and saying, but

876
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:31.139
look, this is wrong and I don't trust this and you shouldn't, what

877
00:38:31.139 --> 00:38:31.619
about this?

878
00:38:31.619 --> 00:38:32.099
What about that?

879
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:35.639
Stephen's actually coming into this status quo and saying, okay, so

880
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:37.139
you've got this system of plenty.

881
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:38.099
Where's the plenty coming from?

882
00:38:38.219 --> 00:38:45.360
You know, and to, for your comparison, Richard, he's actually a

883
00:38:45.360 --> 00:38:48.420
kind of politician who's saying, okay, but you need to understand

884
00:38:48.420 --> 00:38:51.239
your environment and what you're getting out of your environment.

885
00:38:51.300 --> 00:38:54.000
Okay, so you're saying the people out there are evil.

886
00:38:54.059 --> 00:38:54.659
Why are they evil?

887
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:56.820
Okay, they look funny?

888
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:57.179
What?

889
00:38:57.300 --> 00:38:58.679
No, that's not that's not good.

890
00:38:58.739 --> 00:38:58.920
What?

891
00:38:58.980 --> 00:38:59.639
That's not good enough.

892
00:38:59.699 --> 00:39:06.360
So, I mean, not only is Stephen the sort of moral compass for the

893
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:07.199
allegory.

894
00:39:07.260 --> 00:39:10.619
Of course, the doctor's very moral as well, and Dodo, when she

895
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:12.360
finds out what's going on is appalled.

896
00:39:12.420 --> 00:39:16.739
There's this great line about Dodo, where Dodo wanders off, doesn't

897
00:39:16.739 --> 00:39:16.860
she?

898
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:20.219
And like those, the horrible upperclass people who are, you know

899
00:39:20.219 --> 00:39:22.139
Avon and Samira or something.

900
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:22.860
What's she called?

901
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:24.900
Oh, I can't remember.

902
00:39:24.960 --> 00:39:26.880
Avon and what's a face.

903
00:39:26.940 --> 00:39:30.480
And she wanders off and they go, oh, you know, she can't possibly

904
00:39:30.480 --> 00:39:31.260
have gone anywhere.

905
00:39:31.260 --> 00:39:33.780
And she's sort of wandering through the tunnels and stuff.

906
00:39:33.780 --> 00:39:37.679
And I think Stephen follows her and says, you know, even Dodo

907
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.980
wouldn't have been that stupid. out.

908
00:39:41.460 --> 00:39:44.699
But Dodo discovers it and he's horrified.

909
00:39:44.760 --> 00:39:49.139
And so she actually has a sort of decent role to play here.

910
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:54.059
Yeah, once again, you know, get a decent writer and a producer who

911
00:39:54.059 --> 00:39:54.840
cares about women.

912
00:39:55.079 --> 00:39:57.900
You start getting that decent part there.

913
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:01.920
But yeah, Stephen shows sort of how much he has learned from the

914
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:02.280
doctor.

915
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:04.860
And in the end, he, you know, he even said, you know, doctor.

916
00:40:05.099 --> 00:40:08.219
Okay, yeah, if you think I'm ready for this, then I will then I

917
00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:08.760
will do this thing.

918
00:40:08.820 --> 00:40:10.380
It's heartrending.

919
00:40:10.440 --> 00:40:15.000
But once again, it actually feels kind of appropriate that Stephen

920
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:16.260
would go off and do this thing.

921
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:18.059
It's a real high note.

922
00:40:18.059 --> 00:40:22.079
Yeah. that the companion finally leaves on a point of strength.

923
00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:25.800
And by his own volition, and maybe because it's a boy.

924
00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:28.440
Actually gets to call his own shot.

925
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:32.159
Yeah, you know, Ian and Barbara leave in a sort of good way.

926
00:40:32.219 --> 00:40:34.440
But it is a bit different, isn't it?

927
00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:35.039
Yeah, yeah.

928
00:40:35.099 --> 00:40:37.559
They're grown-ups and they're kind of people and they need to go

929
00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:41.099
back to Earth for like no other solution would work.

930
00:40:41.159 --> 00:40:42.119
Do you know what I mean?

931
00:40:42.179 --> 00:40:45.420
Like imagine the doctor had pushed them out somewhere, you know, in

932
00:40:45.420 --> 00:40:48.300
ruined London or ancient Troy or something?

933
00:40:48.360 --> 00:40:49.559
It just would be terrible.

934
00:40:49.619 --> 00:40:50.400
It couldn't have worked.

935
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:53.159
But we're at the point we're past the point now where the

936
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:56.159
companions are anything resembling real people and who cares.

937
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:01.079
And so, Stephen, given that, Stephen gets a really good sendoff.

938
00:41:01.139 --> 00:41:05.460
And given that he has de facto been the lead of the show for a

939
00:41:05.460 --> 00:41:05.639
while.

940
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:07.139
Do you know what I mean?

941
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:12.360
He deserves, he deserves to be the leader of something.

942
00:41:12.420 --> 00:41:14.039
And so I think that works terribly well.

943
00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:17.519
And something that's really nice about it is Peter Purpose's own

944
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:20.820
reaction to that because he, you know, he knew his contract was up

945
00:41:20.820 --> 00:41:22.500
and he said, no, I don't want to do anymore.

946
00:41:22.679 --> 00:41:25.679
And when he got it, he's like, yeah, that's actually a good way to

947
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:25.980
go out.

948
00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:28.800
And he's always said that if they ever came back to Stephen, he

949
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:32.940
would actually like to see that Stephen had become corrupted by

950
00:41:32.940 --> 00:41:36.659
power, because he still felt that even though Stephen was a good

951
00:41:36.659 --> 00:41:39.179
and noble character, whenever you had someone in a position of

952
00:41:39.179 --> 00:41:41.639
power, because he's like, Stephen wasn't elected, he was just put

953
00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:42.420
in this position.

954
00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:45.300
So who's to say he won't still be there in 50 years?

955
00:41:45.360 --> 00:41:49.079
And he said, I'd like to see Stephen comeback. and be a despot, be

956
00:41:49.079 --> 00:41:51.000
reminded how to be good by meeting the doctor again.

957
00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:53.099
Ah, yeah.

958
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:56.219
And, you know, I'm sure he would have just retired and, you know

959
00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:58.320
maybe.

960
00:41:58.380 --> 00:42:00.000
Yeah, spent more time with his hair, perhaps.

961
00:42:00.059 --> 00:42:04.199
But, you know, it just goes to show that I think I said earlier

962
00:42:04.199 --> 00:42:09.000
but the mic wasn't on. when we were just setting up, Stephen is

963
00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:13.199
like Mel, you know, he's not much of a character, but an actor

964
00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:15.599
going, okay, I haven't got much to work with, but I'm going to

965
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:18.179
give a very good, very morally centred performance.

966
00:42:18.300 --> 00:42:20.039
And just do the best I can.

967
00:42:20.099 --> 00:42:22.139
Is that the Jenna Coleman?

968
00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:24.599
Yeah, well, yeah, Jenna Coleman now.

969
00:42:24.659 --> 00:42:26.340
Again, she's a fantastic actress.

970
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:28.920
I really enjoy watching her, but she's given very little character

971
00:42:28.920 --> 00:42:29.820
to work.

972
00:42:29.820 --> 00:42:30.840
Interchangeable parents.

973
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:33.960
Yeah, no, I never really understood that.

974
00:42:34.019 --> 00:42:38.039
But, you know, Stephen has been more important to the show than

975
00:42:38.039 --> 00:42:38.579
either of them.

976
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:39.960
Do you know what I mean?

977
00:42:40.019 --> 00:42:44.280
in that it's really early on and you virtually like you have a

978
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:46.679
production team trying to ease Hartnell out.

979
00:42:46.739 --> 00:42:50.400
And so they rely on Stephen and, you know, like the massacre is

980
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:55.199
the Stevens show and and, you know, Stephen and Dodo are doing the

981
00:42:55.199 --> 00:42:58.920
celestial toy maker and like again and again, Stephen is the

982
00:42:58.920 --> 00:43:00.840
person who has kept the show going.

983
00:43:00.900 --> 00:43:02.219
And he is good.

984
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.380
He's fun to watch, isn't he?

985
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.840
He's got some charisma and things.

986
00:43:06.900 --> 00:43:12.480
I mean, I suppose that's why he's got so little, you know, when

987
00:43:12.480 --> 00:43:16.019
when you talk about Stephen, you go, oh, he's a space pirate and

988
00:43:16.019 --> 00:43:18.960
he's very brave, but he doesn't have a very complex character

989
00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:23.579
because the doctor at this point is not a complex character.

990
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:28.559
The doctor is, uh, no, no, he's played in a very complex way, but

991
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:30.059
you can't define him.

992
00:43:30.179 --> 00:43:32.760
Because so little is known about him.

993
00:43:33.000 --> 00:43:37.260
And that's because he needs to be so many things.

994
00:43:37.320 --> 00:43:39.840
And so when, so much of the moment.

995
00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:42.960
The doctor is always the, that's why he's the centre of the

996
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:44.880
narrative, he's kind of exists slightly outside it.

997
00:43:45.659 --> 00:43:45.840
Exactly.

998
00:43:45.900 --> 00:43:47.519
And that's the case with Stephen in those stories.

999
00:43:47.579 --> 00:43:50.699
I mean, if you look at Ian, you know, you can describe Ian as very

1000
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:52.860
brave, but in a situation, you know how Ian will act.

1001
00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:56.159
You know that Ian will grab a gun or a sword and say, right, we'll

1002
00:43:56.159 --> 00:43:56.579
take it to them.

1003
00:43:56.699 --> 00:43:59.280
You know that Barbara will turn around and say, no, we've got to

1004
00:43:59.280 --> 00:44:00.420
think of a logical way out of this.

1005
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.539
You know that Vicki will be a bit quirky and a bit witty and a bit

1006
00:44:03.539 --> 00:44:03.840
charming.

1007
00:44:04.619 --> 00:44:06.599
And revolutionary.

1008
00:44:06.659 --> 00:44:10.860
But with Stephen, you know, he can do the fighting.

1009
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:12.000
He can do the biff.

1010
00:44:12.059 --> 00:44:13.920
He can do the, I'm so angry.

1011
00:44:13.980 --> 00:44:14.699
I'm so frustrated.

1012
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.579
I am going to do something silly and he can do the whole standing

1013
00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:19.739
up to racism and oppression.

1014
00:44:19.800 --> 00:44:21.360
He can do the muling in an airlock.

1015
00:44:21.420 --> 00:44:22.860
He can do the muling in an airlock.

1016
00:44:23.039 --> 00:44:26.340
I think, yeah, I think you're onto something there, Nathan. because

1017
00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:27.239
he takes over the lead.

1018
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:32.699
That is when he loses some of the definition in his character

1019
00:44:32.699 --> 00:44:35.699
because he has to be all things to all men.

1020
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:39.059
I think even, you know, Richard, were you talking earlier about

1021
00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:45.659
the, about the scene with the, um, with the, no, no, or was it

1022
00:44:45.659 --> 00:44:45.960
you?

1023
00:44:46.019 --> 00:44:51.239
It was the Stephen is trying to charge the fake terranium for...

1024
00:44:51.300 --> 00:44:52.019
Oh, yeah, that was me.

1025
00:44:52.139 --> 00:44:52.500
That was you.

1026
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.380
Stephen's trying to charge the fake geranium core and he

1027
00:44:55.380 --> 00:44:58.139
electrocutes himself and there's a plot point based on the fact

1028
00:44:58.139 --> 00:45:01.199
that he's from further back in time than...

1029
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:05.820
But in fact, you know, after that, it doesn't matter where he's

1030
00:45:05.820 --> 00:45:08.519
from or what his background is, nothing is ever mentioned about

1031
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:13.500
what year he's from or what his job was or anything about his

1032
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:16.260
background at all, it becomes completely irrelevant.

1033
00:45:16.320 --> 00:45:18.119
He's merely a plot contrived.

1034
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:22.860
So he's a, uh, you know, like he's a charismatic, um, and, you

1035
00:45:22.860 --> 00:45:25.619
know, well-acted plot contrivance, but essentially that's really

1036
00:45:25.619 --> 00:45:26.639
all he is.

1037
00:45:26.699 --> 00:45:29.820
But we love him and we're sorry for his goal.

1038
00:45:29.820 --> 00:45:31.619
He just acts above me on that.

1039
00:45:31.679 --> 00:45:34.440
Yeah, he's been the strongest centre in the stories this year.

1040
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.679
Rod really enjoyed this one as well.

1041
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:41.400
And he picked up on something you mentioned earlier, the whole

1042
00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:42.599
George Powell time machine.

1043
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:48.059
Because in that, you know, you had a civilised perfect society, but

1044
00:45:48.059 --> 00:45:50.280
it was controlled by the Morlocks.

1045
00:45:50.340 --> 00:45:51.420
In this version.

1046
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:53.639
If you look at the savages as being the Morlocks.

1047
00:45:53.699 --> 00:45:56.400
This is the civilised controlled society, controlling the

1048
00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:57.000
Morlocks.

1049
00:45:57.059 --> 00:45:58.619
It's like, no, this is far, far worse.

1050
00:45:58.679 --> 00:45:59.400
Yeah.

1051
00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:03.360
But Rod's other reaction to this story in terms of Stephen going

1052
00:46:03.360 --> 00:46:04.739
was, what?

1053
00:46:06.599 --> 00:46:09.360
Because he really was upsetting the cat.

1054
00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:13.559
Rob was horrified to hear he upsets the cat.

1055
00:46:13.619 --> 00:46:15.059
My boyfriend is the cat whisperer.

1056
00:46:15.119 --> 00:46:18.059
I'm sorry, Su Tech. didn't mean to upset you.

1057
00:46:18.119 --> 00:46:20.519
And again. reaction.

1058
00:46:20.579 --> 00:46:21.420
Oh dear.

1059
00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:24.840
Oh, I'm sorry.

1060
00:46:24.900 --> 00:46:26.340
Oh, dear.

1061
00:46:26.579 --> 00:46:27.059
Don do that.

1062
00:46:27.659 --> 00:46:30.960
She'll scratch her eyes out.

1063
00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:35.159
Do we have anything more to say on the savages?

1064
00:46:35.219 --> 00:46:35.760
Oh, she does.

1065
00:46:36.840 --> 00:46:38.880
It's a terrific thing.

1066
00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:42.059
I only know it as an audio, but I really like it as that, you know

1067
00:46:42.059 --> 00:46:43.860
although apparently the visuals look great.

1068
00:46:43.920 --> 00:46:45.780
It was Christopher Barry again, wasn't it?

1069
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.119
The more caves.

1070
00:46:48.179 --> 00:46:50.820
It's our first quarry.

1071
00:46:50.940 --> 00:46:51.840
Oh, okay.

1072
00:46:51.900 --> 00:46:54.780
Yeah, he doesn't make a lot of what he uses from what we can

1073
00:46:54.780 --> 00:46:54.960
tell.

1074
00:46:55.019 --> 00:46:58.139
The biggest location shoots in some Dale Conversion of Earth, I

1075
00:46:58.139 --> 00:46:58.440
believe.

1076
00:46:58.500 --> 00:46:59.820
Lots of quarry stuff.

1077
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:12.420
Okay, so that can mean only one thing.

1078
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.059
Have we just gone groovy and fab all of a sudden?

1079
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.159
We've just got groovy and fabulous.

1080
00:47:18.059 --> 00:47:21.840
Is that why we've all changed into these PVCA-line coats and train

1081
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:22.679
drivers caps?

1082
00:47:22.739 --> 00:47:24.659
Yes, Brandon, we've got our clothes on.

1083
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:26.340
Well, I should hope so.

1084
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.179
Mine's orange PDC, by the way.

1085
00:47:30.179 --> 00:47:32.639
It just looks gray in the black and white footage.

1086
00:47:32.699 --> 00:47:35.219
Despite what anyone else may hear, that's the creaking you may

1087
00:47:35.219 --> 00:47:35.579
hear.

1088
00:47:35.639 --> 00:47:37.500
No, we're coming back down to Earth.

1089
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.320
Tannas is coming back to 1966.

1090
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.019
For the war machines.

1091
00:47:43.139 --> 00:47:47.760
Another story by Ian Stuart Black, who we just praised and adored

1092
00:47:47.760 --> 00:47:49.260
for his work on the savages.

1093
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:56.579
And also, this comes from an idea by Kit Peddler, who had, recently

1094
00:47:56.579 --> 00:48:00.179
come on board as Doctor Who's unofficial scientific advisor.

1095
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:04.199
He's actually where the whole title of scientific advisor would

1096
00:48:04.199 --> 00:48:05.940
later come from as an homage to him.

1097
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:07.860
But he was a scientist.

1098
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:11.039
I believe he worked in optics, optic science.

1099
00:48:11.159 --> 00:48:14.880
Ophthalmology, I think, is the official term for that.

1100
00:48:14.940 --> 00:48:17.940
And so what was he advising them about here?

1101
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:20.460
Was he telling them how computers were?

1102
00:48:20.519 --> 00:48:24.480
Well, what he was doing was he was coming up with current

1103
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:28.920
scientific ideas that could be used in dramatic situations.

1104
00:48:28.980 --> 00:48:32.400
So yeah, his 1st idea was, you know, computers beginning to

1105
00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.199
network themselves and what would happen if the computers decided

1106
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:39.360
they were better at running things after they networked

1107
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:39.719
themselves.

1108
00:48:39.780 --> 00:48:43.559
So, you know, it's, um, it's uh, 80s concerns, really, such as

1109
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:50.159
Skynet in the, um, it's such a Skynet in the Terminator film. films

1110
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:55.679
but done in the 1960s because the 1st email was sent in the 1950s

1111
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:56.099
I believe.

1112
00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:02.820
And so he was working from that principle that computers were

1113
00:49:02.820 --> 00:49:05.699
starting to become more common, the post office tower had just

1114
00:49:05.699 --> 00:49:09.480
opened and had a giant computer relaying all the telephone calls.

1115
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:13.559
So he, I think, had the idea of what happens in this computer

1116
00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:17.039
develops intelligence and goes rogue and that's how concept here.

1117
00:49:17.099 --> 00:49:19.260
It's Doctor Who's 1st mad computer.

1118
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:20.699
It really is.

1119
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:25.139
There's a whole lot of, you know, we forget how fearful culture in

1120
00:49:25.139 --> 00:49:27.599
the world was about computers in the 60s.

1121
00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:31.139
We were seeing them as things that could actually take over our

1122
00:49:31.139 --> 00:49:34.019
world and maybe through Facebook's instant messenger, we're about

1123
00:49:34.019 --> 00:49:37.199
to find out if you've adopted that, that it might actually start

1124
00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:37.739
to be happening.

1125
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.500
Well, in fact, you had, we mentioned this in a previous podcast

1126
00:49:40.500 --> 00:49:44.039
that we had Dr. Stephen Hawking, who recently saying the thing

1127
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:46.679
you've got to most fear is not a virus or climate change.

1128
00:49:46.739 --> 00:49:47.940
It's AI.

1129
00:49:48.300 --> 00:49:50.039
Is that someone else?

1130
00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:50.460
Who was that?

1131
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:55.500
Yeah, Stephen Hawking just said it in this year in a press.

1132
00:49:55.559 --> 00:49:55.800
Yeah.

1133
00:49:55.860 --> 00:49:57.539
It's all getting horribly Nazi.

1134
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:00.480
Okay, Votan is the leader of the Nieverlong, and we've got

1135
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:03.000
Wagner's d- d- d-, which is going to be Nazi.

1136
00:50:03.059 --> 00:50:09.179
But don't forget, IBM started out with the Fortran card.

1137
00:50:09.179 --> 00:50:13.860
Process, the whole beginning of modern computer and how it's able

1138
00:50:13.860 --> 00:50:15.360
to organise information.

1139
00:50:15.420 --> 00:50:19.500
It was designed for the National Socialist Party and organising

1140
00:50:19.500 --> 00:50:23.159
all the persons who were going to be taken away to the camps.

1141
00:50:23.219 --> 00:50:25.260
Every single person had a card.

1142
00:50:25.320 --> 00:50:26.519
That's where the tech has come from.

1143
00:50:26.579 --> 00:50:27.840
But it also comes.

1144
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:28.860
You knew this in the 60s.

1145
00:50:28.920 --> 00:50:32.340
Yeah, it also comes, you know, like the whole computer thing as

1146
00:50:32.340 --> 00:50:35.099
well. the enigma machine and all of that.

1147
00:50:35.159 --> 00:50:38.219
So like so many developments in the modern world that is propelled

1148
00:50:38.219 --> 00:50:39.599
by the Second World War.

1149
00:50:39.659 --> 00:50:40.199
Yes.

1150
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:47.940
And but through the filters of Nazism and now communism, Don't

1151
00:50:47.940 --> 00:50:50.880
forget, when Polly starts to be taken over, she sounds exactly

1152
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:55.920
like Madame Mao again in her pronouncements, from now on China

1153
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.559
whereas Dodo just turns into I don't know what, when she's taken

1154
00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:00.599
over, this is written.

1155
00:51:00.659 --> 00:51:02.699
No, I really do think, well, this is about the thread of

1156
00:51:02.699 --> 00:51:03.239
computers.

1157
00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:06.840
This is the 1st time that we've actually seen the doctor have a

1158
00:51:06.840 --> 00:51:14.159
truly somatic reaction to an ongoing or an entological... evil...

1159
00:51:14.219 --> 00:51:16.559
He gets a skin rash from it.

1160
00:51:16.619 --> 00:51:19.320
He says my skin is and and you can just see.

1161
00:51:19.380 --> 00:51:22.079
There's genuine, you haven't seen genuine fear in the doctor very

1162
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:25.199
often, which then, of course, triumphs in that fan, my favourite

1163
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:31.500
cliffhanger, maybe so far is when he does that whole fantastic pre

1164
00:51:29.340 --> 00:51:32.880
capaldi standoff with...

1165
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:33.780
At the end of episode three.

1166
00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:37.800
Is this my I mean, is this our favourite villain monster machine

1167
00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:40.079
since the Daleks themselves?

1168
00:51:40.139 --> 00:51:41.460
Although I can remember.

1169
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:43.079
Do you remember them in Blue Peter?

1170
00:51:43.139 --> 00:51:44.940
It must be a DVD extra.

1171
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:46.920
Where they come onto Blue Peter and stuff?

1172
00:51:46.980 --> 00:51:48.360
And there's some cardboard.

1173
00:51:48.420 --> 00:51:49.380
There's special cardboard boxes.

1174
00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:51.599
And they're clearly made of sort of painted wood.

1175
00:51:51.960 --> 00:51:55.500
And bizarrely, they're built in one night.

1176
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:56.340
Do you know what I mean?

1177
00:51:56.400 --> 00:51:58.980
It's kind of like, we invent the plans for the thing.

1178
00:51:59.039 --> 00:51:59.760
We send it out.

1179
00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:02.880
The next morning they're sort of out smashing things up.

1180
00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:03.900
It takes no time at all.

1181
00:52:03.960 --> 00:52:06.000
Because all they have to be is a relay.

1182
00:52:06.059 --> 00:52:07.500
Botan's the intelligence running them.

1183
00:52:07.559 --> 00:52:10.920
And once again, such a nerdy moment there.

1184
00:52:11.099 --> 00:52:14.940
We're seeing Doctor Who move into the territory of the Avengers

1185
00:52:14.940 --> 00:52:17.820
where things can happen overnight, like a bit of will come up with

1186
00:52:17.820 --> 00:52:20.340
the plan, and then the plan will happen, or the plan will already

1187
00:52:20.340 --> 00:52:21.599
be in motion when the story starts.

1188
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:24.719
In fact, it is a bigger deal than that because this is actually

1189
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:26.639
the 1st contemporary Earth story.

1190
00:52:26.699 --> 00:52:30.119
It's very Quaitamus, though, we should throw in, nods to Nigel

1191
00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:30.539
Neal.

1192
00:52:31.079 --> 00:52:32.400
Yes, yeah, computer doctor.

1193
00:52:32.460 --> 00:52:34.320
The doctor is Professor Quader Max.

1194
00:52:34.380 --> 00:52:36.780
Well, because instantly he comes back to Earth.

1195
00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:41.099
We've never seen him on Earth before. except in Planet of Giants

1196
00:52:41.099 --> 00:52:42.599
where he doesn't interact with anyone.

1197
00:52:42.659 --> 00:52:45.480
No, because he's all action figure scale at that point.

1198
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:48.599
But here he and like he has a backstory.

1199
00:52:48.659 --> 00:52:49.260
He knows people.

1200
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.960
He knows people, his friends with Sir Charles.

1201
00:52:52.019 --> 00:52:55.800
You know, like he's a bit more 3rd doctor than we expect.

1202
00:52:55.860 --> 00:52:59.460
You can see him having whiny, cheesy chat-offs with his

1203
00:52:59.460 --> 00:53:02.579
authorities, mates, and you can see him starting to name drop.

1204
00:53:02.639 --> 00:53:05.820
Actually, I don't know that we would have loved him so much had he

1205
00:53:05.820 --> 00:53:07.260
been around in contemporary London.

1206
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:09.599
He's much more of a rebel when we see him.

1207
00:53:09.659 --> 00:53:10.559
Yeah.

1208
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:14.159
In a way, you know, it's taken them 3 years, but they've actually

1209
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:16.739
done the idea that Sidney Newman hated.

1210
00:53:16.800 --> 00:53:17.760
This is the troubleshooters.

1211
00:53:17.820 --> 00:53:20.340
Yeah, we're back to episode zero.

1212
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:24.659
Although the difference is, it's a troubleshooting team of one

1213
00:53:24.659 --> 00:53:28.500
like Dodo, Bantam, Polly, none of them have scientific training

1214
00:53:28.500 --> 00:53:30.539
like the proposed troubleshooters was.

1215
00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:31.980
So it's just the Doctor Who Societist.

1216
00:53:32.039 --> 00:53:35.760
But Polly and Ben are very intelligent and very resourceful.

1217
00:53:35.820 --> 00:53:43.320
And Dodo, unfortunately, she's just had two, three, two, two

1218
00:53:43.320 --> 00:53:44.519
really strong stories.

1219
00:53:44.579 --> 00:53:47.940
And yeah, it's the end of her contract midstory.

1220
00:53:48.000 --> 00:53:51.480
And in a way, understandably, Inis Lloyd wants to make his own

1221
00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:55.619
mark on the program, Dodo is just sort of shipped off very

1222
00:53:55.619 --> 00:54:00.119
unceremoniously, you know, and she was on location.

1223
00:54:00.179 --> 00:54:03.659
They could have filmed a leaving scene for her for episode four.

1224
00:54:03.719 --> 00:54:06.719
And the only thing, literally the only thing I can think of that

1225
00:54:06.719 --> 00:54:09.539
they didn't do it is they would have had to pay her for an extra.

1226
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:10.260
What did they do?

1227
00:54:10.320 --> 00:54:14.219
They just say Dodo says she's in the country and she'll be fine.

1228
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:15.000
She'll be fine.

1229
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:16.139
We never see her again.

1230
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:17.820
Oh, it's okay.

1231
00:54:17.820 --> 00:54:21.420
But this, I think, is where we actually start to get things

1232
00:54:21.420 --> 00:54:21.840
right.

1233
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:24.900
This is the show starting to reboot itself.

1234
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:28.079
And we're going to see that early next year.

1235
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:32.519
Because spoiler alert, they're going to replace Bill Hartnall.

1236
00:54:32.579 --> 00:54:36.480
But they start doing it here.

1237
00:54:36.539 --> 00:54:37.920
So you've got dodo.

1238
00:54:37.980 --> 00:54:38.159
Right.

1239
00:54:38.219 --> 00:54:41.579
We come back to, we've come back to Earth and Earth is very

1240
00:54:41.579 --> 00:54:43.559
different from when we left it, okay?

1241
00:54:43.619 --> 00:54:47.820
London, contemporary London, isn't full of sort of Tweedy sort of

1242
00:54:47.820 --> 00:54:52.559
1950s school teachers. mod rocking Adam Faith characters like the

1243
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:53.699
brand new boy Ben.

1244
00:54:53.760 --> 00:54:54.539
Yeah, yeah.

1245
00:54:54.539 --> 00:54:56.519
You've never had anyone more contemporary than that.

1246
00:54:56.579 --> 00:54:57.119
No, exactly.

1247
00:54:57.239 --> 00:55:02.219
Both Ben and Polly, like they're attractive young people, they're

1248
00:55:02.219 --> 00:55:04.320
kind of, you know, relatable.

1249
00:55:04.380 --> 00:55:09.059
We see them at the hilarious Inferno nightclub, which is...

1250
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:10.320
It is.

1251
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:10.980
Everyone's.

1252
00:55:10.980 --> 00:55:12.780
Just so you know, you're still on the BBC.

1253
00:55:12.840 --> 00:55:16.139
And everyone's sort of dancing and Ben beats someone up who's

1254
00:55:16.139 --> 00:55:19.440
trying to hit on Polly and Polly knows everyone and she's sort of

1255
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:20.760
fabbed and they're on the phone.

1256
00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:22.559
Yeah, you look beautiful and they're startling.

1257
00:55:22.619 --> 00:55:25.079
They just don't fit, but this is a lovely thing when as soon as

1258
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.559
Billy walks in and he's told his gear is fab, I think that gear in

1259
00:55:28.559 --> 00:55:30.659
the 60s, didn't mean what it means, right?

1260
00:55:30.659 --> 00:55:33.719
Not for any children who might be listening, it's not a drug

1261
00:55:33.719 --> 00:55:36.360
reference, but although...

1262
00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:39.719
No, no, but he actually does fit into this really well. and you

1263
00:55:39.719 --> 00:55:40.260
don't expect it.

1264
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.300
I sort of say...

1265
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:44.820
Oh, we've mentioned Adam Adamant.

1266
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:48.000
I've never heard that said aloud before.

1267
00:55:48.840 --> 00:55:50.880
I actually pronounce it wrong.

1268
00:55:50.940 --> 00:55:52.679
It is adamant.

1269
00:55:52.739 --> 00:55:55.800
Adam Adamant lives out, which apparently didn't work so well for

1270
00:55:55.800 --> 00:55:57.420
her, but that was the spinoff.

1271
00:55:57.480 --> 00:56:00.599
She wanted to make Sexton Blake, starring Lawrence Payne, as it

1272
00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:03.119
later now, ITV did it instead.

1273
00:56:03.179 --> 00:56:04.320
And so she made this thing.

1274
00:56:04.380 --> 00:56:07.380
Well, I haven't seen Adam Adamant, but I'm told it's terrific.

1275
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:10.380
The Edwardian Maud thing that goes together, so, well, the

1276
00:56:10.380 --> 00:56:11.159
Avengers were doing it.

1277
00:56:11.219 --> 00:56:13.679
Look, Steed is Trad to Emma's Maud.

1278
00:56:13.800 --> 00:56:16.619
That's the 1967 annual, so adroitly put it.

1279
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.159
Yeah, Billy fits perfectly into the 60s, never more so than now.

1280
00:56:20.219 --> 00:56:23.579
Oh, can I just say that again, in perfect ultimate universe.

1281
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:26.400
I would have liked a year, much as we love what's going to come

1282
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:26.940
up.

1283
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.960
Just a year of Ben and Polly and Billy being looked after by those

1284
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:34.739
2 instead of maybe we know what was going on behind the scenes and

1285
00:56:34.739 --> 00:56:37.199
that Billy knew that his days were there and he wasn't that happy

1286
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:37.800
with these kids.

1287
00:56:38.219 --> 00:56:40.619
And certainly Anaka doesn't say nice things about her.

1288
00:56:40.679 --> 00:56:41.099
She doesn't.

1289
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:44.460
And maybe this is the point to say that I kind of side with maybe

1290
00:56:44.460 --> 00:56:47.940
it's Sandoval who says that, you know, actually she's still around

1291
00:56:47.940 --> 00:56:50.460
and all do deference to her.

1292
00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:55.980
She's not perhaps as sympathetic to Billy as a young person as she

1293
00:56:55.980 --> 00:56:58.019
was then as maybe we would be now.

1294
00:56:58.079 --> 00:57:01.679
I know that I, how I would have liked to have seen this play out.

1295
00:57:01.739 --> 00:57:04.860
A whole year of those 3 could have been terrific.

1296
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:05.940
I mean, it would have been great.

1297
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.280
And the year that we get it, Ben and Polly is terrific.

1298
00:57:08.340 --> 00:57:09.719
They're both really good characters.

1299
00:57:09.719 --> 00:57:13.739
And it is getting back to where we started, which is 2

1300
00:57:13.739 --> 00:57:14.820
contemporary people.

1301
00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:18.840
You know, a man and a woman who join the doctor on his adventures

1302
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:21.239
so that we have someone that we can relate to.

1303
00:57:21.300 --> 00:57:24.840
It's not space people with no background, you know, it's not even

1304
00:57:24.840 --> 00:57:25.679
people from the future.

1305
00:57:25.739 --> 00:57:28.860
It's people from now, and it's people from a version of now that's

1306
00:57:28.860 --> 00:57:32.519
a little bit more contemporary, a little bit less dated than Ian

1307
00:57:32.519 --> 00:57:33.179
and Barbara.

1308
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:36.300
However much we love Ian and Barbara and God, we love them. you

1309
00:57:36.300 --> 00:57:37.320
know they're fantastic.

1310
00:57:37.380 --> 00:57:41.699
Ben and Polly are, or they almost seem like a generation later

1311
00:57:41.699 --> 00:57:44.340
rather than just 2 years later.

1312
00:57:44.400 --> 00:57:47.039
And so I think that they're really terrific.

1313
00:57:47.099 --> 00:57:50.639
And Richard, your point where the doctor fits in, I think, is

1314
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:52.920
absolutely right.

1315
00:57:52.980 --> 00:57:57.840
The person who doesn't fit in is Dodo, who just looks massively

1316
00:57:57.840 --> 00:57:59.639
incongruous in the nightclub.

1317
00:57:59.699 --> 00:58:01.079
Like, what is she wearing?

1318
00:58:01.139 --> 00:58:04.139
You know, she just doesn't seem like she comes from the same world

1319
00:58:04.139 --> 00:58:06.780
at all as these other people.

1320
00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:10.619
And it is that thing where she also is barely a person.

1321
00:58:10.679 --> 00:58:11.579
You know, she came in.

1322
00:58:11.639 --> 00:58:13.739
She had like 2 lines about a background.

1323
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:16.739
Oh, me mum's dead and now I'm going to suddenly change my accent

1324
00:58:16.739 --> 00:58:17.639
for no reason.

1325
00:58:17.699 --> 00:58:21.420
You know, like she's just really not being great.

1326
00:58:21.480 --> 00:58:27.480
I think she's, I have absolutely no doubt that it has nothing at

1327
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:30.300
all to do with Jackie Lane as an actor.

1328
00:58:30.360 --> 00:58:33.780
I really think that she's the victim of them not knowing what to

1329
00:58:33.780 --> 00:58:37.559
do with the program and them essentially flailing for all of this

1330
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:37.860
time.

1331
00:58:37.920 --> 00:58:38.940
It's the new girl.

1332
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:39.599
What does she do?

1333
00:58:39.659 --> 00:58:42.000
Oh, she'll have to change accent because this is terrible.

1334
00:58:42.059 --> 00:58:43.860
You know, like all of that's just.

1335
00:58:43.980 --> 00:58:46.800
But I have to say, look how good Jenna Coleman is with pretty much

1336
00:58:46.800 --> 00:58:49.019
the same level of backstory.

1337
00:58:49.079 --> 00:58:50.880
But I think I think more...

1338
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:53.579
That leaf does not count for an entire narrative.

1339
00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:58.679
I think, though, more care is taken with direction of her, an

1340
00:58:58.679 --> 00:59:01.920
overall treatment of her. true. definitely treated better.

1341
00:59:01.980 --> 00:59:03.539
They can't get away with doing the same.

1342
00:59:03.659 --> 00:59:04.320
No, no.

1343
00:59:04.380 --> 00:59:08.760
And, you know, we're now at the tail end of a paradigm where

1344
00:59:08.760 --> 00:59:12.840
Doctor Who is a man and a woman, you know, essentially there's 2

1345
00:59:12.840 --> 00:59:16.920
leads, whereas here it's still Bill Hartnell and some people who

1346
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:21.900
we might or might not care about, you know, now that Ian and

1347
00:59:21.900 --> 00:59:22.559
Barbara have left.

1348
00:59:22.619 --> 00:59:26.159
So it was all just a bit of an undistinguished run of episodes.

1349
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:30.719
But, you know, bless Jackie.

1350
00:59:30.780 --> 00:59:32.400
I'm sure it had nothing to do with her.

1351
00:59:32.460 --> 00:59:33.539
Yeah.

1352
00:59:33.599 --> 00:59:35.579
She's great in the gunfighters.

1353
00:59:35.639 --> 00:59:39.239
And in terms of the show itself in these last 3 stories, it's

1354
00:59:39.239 --> 00:59:40.500
really starting to get back on its feet.

1355
00:59:40.559 --> 00:59:45.780
Like, you know, it had just been slowly put down to the ground in

1356
00:59:45.780 --> 00:59:47.760
a chokehold and it's gotten up swinging.

1357
00:59:47.820 --> 00:59:49.920
In more ways than what?

1358
00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.639
It is just a shame with Jackie Lane.

1359
00:59:53.699 --> 00:59:56.820
And now it's time for my exciting Jackie Lane story.

1360
00:59:56.880 --> 00:59:59.940
It may not actually be exciting. disclaimer.

1361
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:02.820
Is it the worst goodbye of a companion we've seen so far?

1362
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.280
It's the worst goodbye we've seen to date.

1363
01:00:05.340 --> 01:00:10.320
It's worse than Donna Noble's virtual mind rape when everything's

1364
01:00:10.320 --> 01:00:11.159
taken away from her.

1365
01:00:11.219 --> 01:00:12.599
Is that not a word?

1366
01:00:12.599 --> 01:00:13.320
That makes me so sad.

1367
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:15.719
Yeah, but I felt really distraught at the end of that.

1368
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:18.059
That's the thing. makes you sad, but it makes you feel something.

1369
01:00:18.119 --> 01:00:21.719
Dodo's one of all you...

1370
01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:23.400
No, Liz Shaw, that's a paw.

1371
01:00:23.460 --> 01:00:24.179
Yeah, yeah.

1372
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:25.920
We'll get it.

1373
01:00:25.980 --> 01:00:30.000
But I'm like Dodo, that's not that's not the actress being treated

1374
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:30.480
poorly.

1375
01:00:30.539 --> 01:00:32.880
Well, not on screen, no.

1376
01:00:32.940 --> 01:00:35.400
Well, she didn't want to come back anyway, either.

1377
01:00:35.460 --> 01:00:36.059
Anyway.

1378
01:00:36.360 --> 01:00:37.079
Anyway.

1379
01:00:37.139 --> 01:00:41.159
Anyway, so funny, possibly not funny Jackie Lane story.

1380
01:00:41.219 --> 01:00:44.820
In the lead up to recording this podcast, I decided I would look

1381
01:00:44.820 --> 01:00:47.099
around for more stuff that Jackie Lane did because like you

1382
01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:49.320
Richard, I'd heard reviews that she was good in other things.

1383
01:00:49.380 --> 01:00:52.079
She'd done a lot of the soaps of the day.

1384
01:00:52.139 --> 01:00:53.639
She'd been irregular on some of them.

1385
01:00:53.699 --> 01:00:58.800
And then her only acting credit after Doctor Who, because of

1386
01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.980
course she did become an actor's agent and a voice artist agent

1387
01:01:01.980 --> 01:01:03.840
and very successful in that line of work.

1388
01:01:03.900 --> 01:01:07.739
Her only credit after Doctor Who, I discovered on IMDb, was an

1389
01:01:07.739 --> 01:01:11.159
episode of Get Smart about 3 years later.

1390
01:01:11.219 --> 01:01:13.980
And I thought, that's not out of the question because John Levine

1391
01:01:13.980 --> 01:01:16.800
went over to America and did a fair bit of work in America after

1392
01:01:16.800 --> 01:01:17.940
he finished on Doctor Who.

1393
01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:21.059
And I thought 3 years, that's enough time for her to go over, just

1394
01:01:21.059 --> 01:01:23.880
be getting bit parts and finally get a speaking part.

1395
01:01:23.940 --> 01:01:28.260
And so I watched this particular episode of Get Smart.

1396
01:01:28.320 --> 01:01:32.340
It's called the day they turned out the Knights, Nights with a K

1397
01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:40.800
And premise is there's budget cutbacks at control 99 is forced

1398
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:42.119
to...

1399
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:46.860
Well, no, no, she's actually fired. and has to take a job in a

1400
01:01:46.860 --> 01:01:47.099
shop.

1401
01:01:47.219 --> 01:01:51.179
And so I thought, oh, great, Jackie Lane's going to be either

1402
01:01:51.179 --> 01:01:52.860
Jackie Lane's going to be the girl in the shop.

1403
01:01:52.860 --> 01:01:54.539
And no, she wasn't the girl in the shop.

1404
01:01:54.599 --> 01:01:56.039
It's like, oh, oh, there are customers.

1405
01:01:56.099 --> 01:01:57.420
Jackie Lane's going to be a customer.

1406
01:01:57.480 --> 01:01:58.440
So there's a few customers.

1407
01:01:58.440 --> 01:02:02.820
And, you know, being America in the 60s, there was a customer who

1408
01:02:02.820 --> 01:02:05.880
was an older woman and I thought, is that Jackie lady makeup?

1409
01:02:05.940 --> 01:02:07.500
No, no, it's not Jackie lady makeup.

1410
01:02:07.559 --> 01:02:10.860
There was a black man, customer wearing funky threads.

1411
01:02:10.920 --> 01:02:13.019
No, that's not that's not Jackie Lane.

1412
01:02:13.079 --> 01:02:16.559
There were, you know, there were businessman and what have you.

1413
01:02:16.619 --> 01:02:17.519
Bardi-gada-gada.

1414
01:02:17.579 --> 01:02:19.800
So it gets to the end of the episode, and I still haven't seen

1415
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:20.699
Jackie Lane.

1416
01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:23.760
But I'm like, oh, this is really weird.

1417
01:02:23.820 --> 01:02:27.599
Get to the cast list and like 5 credited cast, aside from Jackie

1418
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:28.199
Lane.

1419
01:02:28.260 --> 01:02:29.099
And so I paused it.

1420
01:02:29.159 --> 01:02:33.059
And I'm like, okay, so we've got, um, the leader of chaos in this

1421
01:02:33.059 --> 01:02:35.400
episode is such and such, the other shopgirl is such and such

1422
01:02:35.400 --> 01:02:38.639
warehouse man, such and such, Larrabee, such and such, hippie

1423
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:39.539
Jackie Lane.

1424
01:02:39.599 --> 01:02:39.840
No.

1425
01:02:39.900 --> 01:02:43.260
And I'm just like, but, and I was about to rewind it when I

1426
01:02:43.260 --> 01:02:43.920
suddenly realised.

1427
01:02:44.699 --> 01:02:47.880
That I had seen a hippie. as one of the customers.

1428
01:02:47.940 --> 01:02:52.860
And, you know, bunky threads, headband, corduroy waistcoat.

1429
01:02:53.099 --> 01:02:55.679
IMDB's messed it up.

1430
01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:59.340
This is a black American male actor called Jack Lay.

1431
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:01.559
She's got the range.

1432
01:03:01.619 --> 01:03:03.119
She does have a range.

1433
01:03:03.179 --> 01:03:03.960
She goes north.

1434
01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:05.880
She goes up and down the M4.

1435
01:03:06.119 --> 01:03:08.159
She goes to Bradford.

1436
01:03:08.579 --> 01:03:12.900
I look a lot of Jamaicans...

1437
01:03:12.960 --> 01:03:17.820
It looks like we finally seen someone who didn't do any work on

1438
01:03:17.820 --> 01:03:19.139
television after Doctor Who.

1439
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:24.480
Even Carol Anne Ford and Maureen O'Brien, whose careers did take

1440
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:27.119
an unfortunate turn after Doctor Who got work after Doctor Who.

1441
01:03:27.179 --> 01:03:29.760
It appears Jackie Lane did not, and that's really sad.

1442
01:03:30.059 --> 01:03:32.940
I think she probably decided against it.

1443
01:03:33.000 --> 01:03:34.920
More about her a bit later.

1444
01:03:34.980 --> 01:03:35.940
Yes.

1445
01:03:35.940 --> 01:03:37.860
How we...

1446
01:03:37.860 --> 01:03:40.860
There's a lot of backstory stuff, you know, that Innis Lloyd was

1447
01:03:40.860 --> 01:03:44.039
wanting to push this to the contemporary fab mod show.

1448
01:03:44.099 --> 01:03:47.760
I think you can see that it's doing it, but Doctor Who can't just

1449
01:03:47.760 --> 01:03:48.360
be one thing.

1450
01:03:48.539 --> 01:03:51.539
The reason it works is you've got to let it go and do something

1451
01:03:51.539 --> 01:03:52.559
different next week.

1452
01:03:52.619 --> 01:03:53.519
That's its strength.

1453
01:03:53.579 --> 01:03:55.679
And to be fair, they do do that.

1454
01:03:55.739 --> 01:03:59.099
Like they bring the hip mod, fabulous, attractive young characters

1455
01:03:59.099 --> 01:04:01.920
in and then they put them in the smugglers on the 10th planet and

1456
01:04:01.920 --> 01:04:02.400
stuff like that.

1457
01:04:02.460 --> 01:04:03.300
So they do.

1458
01:04:03.360 --> 01:04:04.980
Yeah, so they do do that.

1459
01:04:05.039 --> 01:04:09.960
And I, it is a return to the lovely Ian and Barbara.

1460
01:04:10.019 --> 01:04:13.260
There's even that fan rumour that Polly's last name is right.

1461
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:14.579
We never hear it.

1462
01:04:14.639 --> 01:04:15.179
That's right.

1463
01:04:15.239 --> 01:04:15.840
We do hear that.

1464
01:04:15.960 --> 01:04:18.360
We never hear it, but that's the thing.

1465
01:04:18.420 --> 01:04:20.940
Are we going to get another historical soon, I hope?

1466
01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:22.260
I believe we are.

1467
01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:26.099
But that's going to make everyone in this room happy.

1468
01:04:26.159 --> 01:04:26.820
I can tell.

1469
01:04:26.940 --> 01:04:29.460
But that's for another podcast.

1470
01:04:29.519 --> 01:04:31.260
I always look forward to it.

1471
01:04:31.320 --> 01:04:34.500
I, I, um, I have to get home for a roast.

1472
01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:35.460
You've got a roast in the oven.

1473
01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:40.019
I think we very quickly have to do our Jenny Laird awards for most

1474
01:04:40.019 --> 01:04:41.039
puzzling creative choice.

1475
01:04:41.099 --> 01:04:43.260
Well I'll let you start.

1476
01:04:43.980 --> 01:04:46.920
I'll go Yes, you go first, please.

1477
01:04:46.980 --> 01:04:48.539
Well, I want Daphne Dare.

1478
01:04:48.599 --> 01:04:49.440
Do you know what I mean?

1479
01:04:49.500 --> 01:04:50.699
I'm sure she's very nice person.

1480
01:04:50.760 --> 01:04:54.659
In fact, I think Dougie Camfield and Daphne Dare can share this

1481
01:04:54.659 --> 01:04:54.840
one.

1482
01:04:54.960 --> 01:05:00.420
And it is for just the absolutely astonishing and remarkable look

1483
01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:05.039
and behaviour and characteristics of the delegates in Russian, to

1484
01:05:05.039 --> 01:05:06.659
the unknown and dark masterplan.

1485
01:05:06.719 --> 01:05:10.800
They're white with sort of black balls all over their face or

1486
01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:14.280
their, their, what did you say, like a bunch of kale in a hoodie?

1487
01:05:14.340 --> 01:05:15.840
You know?

1488
01:05:15.840 --> 01:05:16.679
Conehead?

1489
01:05:16.739 --> 01:05:21.719
Yeah, cone head, you know, they walk into the thing, sort of, as

1490
01:05:21.719 --> 01:05:24.539
if they're kind of floating.

1491
01:05:24.599 --> 01:05:26.400
It's very, very strange.

1492
01:05:26.460 --> 01:05:31.440
Everyone pulls out their sort of funniest, silly voice. you know

1493
01:05:31.440 --> 01:05:34.320
like the whole thing is just absolutely bizarre.

1494
01:05:34.380 --> 01:05:39.300
And we've seen, you know, shows like Rings of Atkerson or the

1495
01:05:39.300 --> 01:05:43.800
spectacular end of the world, which put lots of aliens on screen.

1496
01:05:43.860 --> 01:05:48.119
But we've never really seen anything like this before and we

1497
01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:51.119
really will never see anything like it again.

1498
01:05:51.179 --> 01:05:56.400
So, in fact, she's not credited for episode one, but quick cursory

1499
01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:59.340
check of IMDb tells me Daphne Dare is to blame.

1500
01:05:59.400 --> 01:06:01.079
So Daphne Dale, Dougie Canfield.

1501
01:06:02.219 --> 01:06:05.579
I think I have to make my choice, John Wiles.

1502
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:07.800
And, you know, we've been batching on him a lot, so I'm not going

1503
01:06:07.800 --> 01:06:12.000
to say everything, but I'm going to say for John Wiles, my choice

1504
01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:18.420
has to be his and I suppose Donald Tosh's creation of Dodo, because

1505
01:06:18.420 --> 01:06:21.960
it's so strange that they did have very definite ideas of what

1506
01:06:21.960 --> 01:06:23.159
they wanted the series to be.

1507
01:06:23.219 --> 01:06:28.860
But they just seem to have cipher-like ideas for what they wanted

1508
01:06:28.860 --> 01:06:31.440
the characters to be, and they were on a hiding to nothing.

1509
01:06:31.500 --> 01:06:33.420
That's kind of lazy, right?

1510
01:06:33.480 --> 01:06:36.119
It's kind of lazy writing because it's Biddy.

1511
01:06:36.179 --> 01:06:37.019
It's Sue.

1512
01:06:37.079 --> 01:06:40.619
She's pretty much on paper, the original before they all looked at

1513
01:06:40.619 --> 01:06:41.639
it and said, that's too thin.

1514
01:06:41.699 --> 01:06:43.559
We better build it up and put something interesting in there.

1515
01:06:44.219 --> 01:06:46.320
Bitty, bitty, bitty.

1516
01:06:46.380 --> 01:06:46.980
What would she call?

1517
01:06:46.980 --> 01:06:47.820
Yes, yes.

1518
01:06:47.880 --> 01:06:50.519
So yeah, that it's it's John Welles for me.

1519
01:06:50.579 --> 01:06:57.000
And I suppose it's just his sort of very broad strokes and not

1520
01:06:57.000 --> 01:06:59.460
coming back to do the fine detail later approach to the show.

1521
01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:04.260
And it borders on contempt.

1522
01:07:04.380 --> 01:07:06.480
I think there was a lot of contempt.

1523
01:07:06.539 --> 01:07:08.820
Why did he want, you know, why did he want the job?

1524
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:14.760
It's a bit like if you're buying a house and you want to

1525
01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:15.300
renovate.

1526
01:07:15.360 --> 01:07:17.699
You buy something that's roughly in the right shape to begin with

1527
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:21.599
you don't, unless it's completely falling apart in shambolic, which

1528
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:22.380
doctor who wasn't.

1529
01:07:22.440 --> 01:07:25.320
You don't buy the thing and then completely try and rip it down

1530
01:07:25.320 --> 01:07:26.280
and put up something new.

1531
01:07:26.340 --> 01:07:30.119
But wasn't he pushed into the role he his 1st love was writing and

1532
01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:31.800
he went back to writing after this.

1533
01:07:31.860 --> 01:07:34.440
This was his 1st and only production role.

1534
01:07:35.820 --> 01:07:37.860
I took him off the line.

1535
01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.619
Well, yeah, there was a lot of antagonism between those 2 and an

1536
01:07:40.619 --> 01:07:44.579
ego thing and he just didn't have the lightness of touch or charm

1537
01:07:44.579 --> 01:07:48.119
to deal with someone like Billy, which I can imagine being your

1538
01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:51.179
1st production job would have been pretty hard shakes because, you

1539
01:07:51.179 --> 01:07:54.539
know, he, I don't think he, he put up from with much.

1540
01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:56.699
It was short shrift if you didn't agree with it.

1541
01:07:56.760 --> 01:07:57.300
Yeah.

1542
01:07:57.300 --> 01:08:00.480
We've been very sympathetic to him because he's...

1543
01:08:00.539 --> 01:08:05.820
He's our main character, but yeah, you know, there are 2 sides to

1544
01:08:05.820 --> 01:08:09.000
everything, and he was clearly very difficult to work with, and

1545
01:08:09.000 --> 01:08:10.500
we've certainly heard that from other people.

1546
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:11.400
Yeah.

1547
01:08:11.699 --> 01:08:14.099
Okay, so Richard...

1548
01:08:14.159 --> 01:08:16.619
Oh, well, again, this is the things where you could see what the

1549
01:08:16.619 --> 01:08:21.239
series had started to do and how interesting it had set out to be

1550
01:08:21.239 --> 01:08:23.220
anything and everything and very experimental.

1551
01:08:23.279 --> 01:08:25.260
And I think while it's actually managed that.

1552
01:08:25.319 --> 01:08:28.319
I love Dalek Master Plan and some of the stories that followed

1553
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:33.359
after that, again, really uncompromising in what they were setting

1554
01:08:33.359 --> 01:08:37.439
up for and how they just allow them to be that, both the massacre

1555
01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:39.720
and master plan sit really well together.

1556
01:08:39.779 --> 01:08:41.340
For those reasons.

1557
01:08:41.460 --> 01:08:46.439
But I think we're actually getting into the state of, um, we'll

1558
01:08:46.439 --> 01:08:49.319
just do it because this is what you do, and that, I think, is more

1559
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:50.640
of Innes Lloyd, actually.

1560
01:08:50.699 --> 01:08:56.760
And then his new his new script editor, Jerry Davis, were about to

1561
01:08:56.760 --> 01:08:58.319
discover more of that.

1562
01:08:58.979 --> 01:09:00.420
Yeah.

1563
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:02.520
Some more fun things to come up.

1564
01:09:02.579 --> 01:09:04.079
But good and not so good.

1565
01:09:04.140 --> 01:09:04.380
Yeah.

1566
01:09:05.039 --> 01:09:09.119
In terms of recommendations for this series, I would like to

1567
01:09:09.119 --> 01:09:13.979
recommend a trilogy of Big Finnish Companion Chronicles, and those

1568
01:09:13.979 --> 01:09:18.899
are the ones featuring Peter Purvis's Stephen, and Tom Allen as

1569
01:09:18.899 --> 01:09:23.520
the new companion for the audio's Oliver Harper. who is a

1570
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:27.060
companion from contemporary earth with a secret, which I won't

1571
01:09:27.060 --> 01:09:29.460
reveal because it becomes integral to the 3 stories.

1572
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:31.920
The 1st story in disguise.

1573
01:09:31.920 --> 01:09:33.000
Back to revenge.

1574
01:09:33.060 --> 01:09:35.460
The 1st story is called The Perpetual Bond.

1575
01:09:35.520 --> 01:09:39.300
The 2nd story is called the Cold Equations, and the 3rd story is

1576
01:09:39.300 --> 01:09:41.819
called the 1st wave.

1577
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:45.479
I shan't say too much about them, but very good performances from

1578
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:46.319
both Leeds.

1579
01:09:46.380 --> 01:09:48.300
Of course, Peter Purvis, very good actor.

1580
01:09:48.300 --> 01:09:53.340
And Tom Allen is a comedian, stand-up comedian.

1581
01:09:53.399 --> 01:09:57.300
He is most famous for the radio series Bleak Expectations.

1582
01:09:57.359 --> 01:10:01.979
Which I listen to and I love bleak expectations. hilarious.

1583
01:10:02.039 --> 01:10:04.439
It's sadly short-lived TV spinoff.

1584
01:10:04.500 --> 01:10:05.640
The bleak old shop of stuff.

1585
01:10:06.000 --> 01:10:09.239
Yeah, it only ran for one season. and that's got lots of Doctor

1586
01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:10.319
Who...

1587
01:10:10.380 --> 01:10:10.920
Stewart Head.

1588
01:10:10.979 --> 01:10:14.039
It's got Anthony Stewart head, Celia Imry pops into some of them.

1589
01:10:14.159 --> 01:10:16.079
Both of them.

1590
01:10:16.140 --> 01:10:17.220
We own them.

1591
01:10:17.279 --> 01:10:17.699
That is correct.

1592
01:10:17.760 --> 01:10:19.800
We've just lost another Chumbley eye.

1593
01:10:19.859 --> 01:10:21.239
Has anyone else got a recommendation?

1594
01:10:21.300 --> 01:10:22.680
Yes, I do.

1595
01:10:22.739 --> 01:10:26.880
This is an unusual one because I've done, you know, sort of Doctor

1596
01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:30.720
Who books and things before, but there is a sort of 6 minute video

1597
01:10:30.720 --> 01:10:37.020
of Jackie Lane visiting Paris in November of 2011.

1598
01:10:37.319 --> 01:10:42.239
Now, I can't remember who authored it.

1599
01:10:42.300 --> 01:10:47.100
But I will put a link to it in the show notes when this episode

1600
01:10:47.100 --> 01:10:47.640
goes up.

1601
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:48.840
And it's delightful.

1602
01:10:48.899 --> 01:10:52.319
It's done to the music of Edith Pierre. a.k.a.

1603
01:10:52.319 --> 01:10:52.979
Dudley Simpson.

1604
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:56.100
You can actually play running through Paris running through Paris

1605
01:10:56.100 --> 01:10:57.239
in the background.

1606
01:10:57.300 --> 01:10:59.399
And it's really true. lovely.

1607
01:10:59.460 --> 01:11:03.000
Jackie has, you know, never come back, although she did do the

1608
01:11:03.000 --> 01:11:05.460
Doctor Who night thing for the 15th anniversary.

1609
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:08.640
Yeah, she did she did a live cross or a pre-recorded message for

1610
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:09.539
the Doctor Who after party.

1611
01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:12.960
But she's never done a DVD commentary or a DVD extra.

1612
01:11:13.020 --> 01:11:15.180
She's never participated in a big finish thing.

1613
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:17.579
You know, she's kind of walked away and...

1614
01:11:17.579 --> 01:11:20.699
Well, John, what fans have also been saying over the years, which

1615
01:11:20.699 --> 01:11:21.539
is unfair, I think.

1616
01:11:21.600 --> 01:11:26.760
But this is spectacular and lovely and it will make you just love

1617
01:11:26.760 --> 01:11:27.300
her again.

1618
01:11:27.359 --> 01:11:29.460
So click on the link.

1619
01:11:29.520 --> 01:11:32.520
You know, it'll be on the website and on the show notes on your

1620
01:11:32.520 --> 01:11:33.420
podcast app.

1621
01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:36.659
We should do more little happy link things because it doesn't take

1622
01:11:36.659 --> 01:11:37.859
much of your time away.

1623
01:11:37.920 --> 01:11:40.859
Greg Miller put some terrific things up for the last episode.

1624
01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:44.100
I'm almost willing to just segue to him for his choices.

1625
01:11:44.159 --> 01:11:47.699
But if you're going to, or wanting to put some extra time in, from

1626
01:11:47.699 --> 01:11:51.779
what you've heard of this season, I'd really recommend going back

1627
01:11:51.779 --> 01:11:57.659
to my, my pre-vote and loves of print media.

1628
01:11:57.720 --> 01:11:59.220
Donald Cotton's books.

1629
01:11:59.279 --> 01:12:02.640
We mentioned them during the podcasts, but his novelisations of

1630
01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:06.659
both myth makers and gunfighters.

1631
01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:09.060
Just fantastic and funny.

1632
01:12:09.119 --> 01:12:10.380
And they're quick reads as well.

1633
01:12:10.439 --> 01:12:13.439
There are audio versions, if you prefer to listen to them, but

1634
01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:16.140
it's just nice to sit up in bed for an hour before you go to bed

1635
01:12:16.140 --> 01:12:18.000
and you'll get through them in 3 or 4 nights.

1636
01:12:18.060 --> 01:12:19.260
They're really good fun.

1637
01:12:19.319 --> 01:12:23.460
Really good I really, I have had the Stephen Thorn version on my

1638
01:12:23.460 --> 01:12:24.300
code.

1639
01:12:24.779 --> 01:12:25.140
Strangers.

1640
01:12:25.199 --> 01:12:26.939
I just haven't had, you know, the time.

1641
01:12:27.000 --> 01:12:29.279
I did follow your last recommendations.

1642
01:12:29.340 --> 01:12:31.140
I enjoyed crusades.

1643
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:31.680
Yeah, yeah.

1644
01:12:31.739 --> 01:12:35.579
I have listened to the myth makers and it's magical.

1645
01:12:35.640 --> 01:12:36.420
Excellent, isn't it?

1646
01:12:36.539 --> 01:12:36.720
Yeah.

1647
01:12:43.020 --> 01:12:45.479
Right, well, I think that's about it from us.

1648
01:12:45.539 --> 01:12:49.619
We will be back next month with another 3 podcasts, where...

1649
01:12:49.619 --> 01:12:52.260
And some shiny things in colour.

1650
01:12:52.380 --> 01:12:53.039
Yes.

1651
01:12:53.100 --> 01:12:54.600
Oh, spoiler alert.

1652
01:12:54.659 --> 01:12:55.319
Yes, indeed.

1653
01:12:55.380 --> 01:13:01.680
Um, but uh, as we end this season, uh, I just would like to end

1654
01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:04.619
this season with a little bit of verse that I came up with, if you

1655
01:13:04.619 --> 01:13:09.720
don't mind, gentlemen, because, um, there's something over snow

1656
01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:10.380
cap and.

1657
01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:11.340
It's not the moon.

1658
01:13:11.399 --> 01:13:12.600
Next month.

1659
01:13:12.659 --> 01:13:16.020
It's goodbye, Hartnell, and Hello, Troutoon.

1660
01:13:16.979 --> 01:13:18.899
Good night, everyone.

1661
01:13:19.560 --> 01:13:21.180
Good everything.

1662
01:13:27.239 --> 01:13:30.000
You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan

1663
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:32.159
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1664
01:13:32.279 --> 01:13:35.640
This episode, Tropes, Tropes, Tropes, Tropes, Tropes, who was

1665
01:13:35.640 --> 01:13:37.319
recorded on Sunday, the 10th of August.

1666
01:13:37.380 --> 01:13:40.319
The next episode will be released on October 12th.

1667
01:13:40.380 --> 01:13:43.859
You can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight your entirety

1668
01:13:43.859 --> 01:13:46.619
on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1669
01:13:55.680 --> 01:13:59.880
Cushing is...