WEBVTT NOTE This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:46:58 1 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:36.659 Hello, dear listener, and welcome back after an extended absence to Flight Through Entirety. 2 00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:42.960 The only Doctor Who podcast who can teach you the value of using karate against pantomime sea monsters. 3 00:00:43.020 --> 00:00:43.500 I'm Brendan. 4 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:48.539 I'm Nathan I've just discovered that my fingers fish fingers contain pantomime whores. 5 00:00:49.740 --> 00:00:54.539 And we're back with season 21 and it's Warriors of the Deep. 6 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:25.140 I'm going to take a surprising role. in this conversation, because for once, I don't really like this story at all. 7 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:26.159 You don't? 8 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:31.079 Oh, I loved it at the time and I'm still quite fond of it and for many good reasons and some bad ones. 9 00:01:31.140 --> 00:01:33.900 Actually, I have to say that I am a little bit more ambivalent. 10 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:37.019 I think we'll find ourselves in agreement over some of the good points. 11 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:38.640 What do you like about it, particularly? 12 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:46.439 I like that it goes against the conventions at the time and the conventions of Johnny Byrne the Writer, this being worries of the deepest being 1984. 13 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:53.280 This being pretty much the last Cold War story we get contemporaneous with issues and such like. 14 00:01:53.340 --> 00:02:15.060 So there's 2 reasons I like this story, is the political nousiness of it at the time, that it was really on the edge, and that it goes against received wisdom that all bases under siege should now look like Ridley Scott's back bathroom out back of the potting shed and be dark and dank, because really, if it's, you know, I think the set was amazing, and it was Tony, what's his face, wasn't it, who did it? 15 00:02:15.120 --> 00:02:16.199 Tony Burrows, I believe? 16 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.879 Yeah, because he took over from some bloke who was very quickly dismissed, so we won't mention his name. 17 00:02:20.939 --> 00:02:25.259 And the fact that it was white and shiny and made of glossy milk crates, it looked stunning. 18 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:26.099 I think it still does. 19 00:02:26.219 --> 00:02:28.080 And the jumpsuits are so 1984. 20 00:02:28.259 --> 00:02:40.080 We said that, or I said at least that terminus was peak 80s, but I actually have to say that I think worries are the deep is peak 80s, particularly Preston's hair, and Tegan has the most terrifying hair. 21 00:02:40.139 --> 00:02:42.060 Not since what was her name? 22 00:02:42.060 --> 00:02:46.979 Madeline Sigri, we actually had such post-contemporaneous hair, haven't we? 23 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.180 It's a kind of, you know, like 30s film star thing. very glamorous. 24 00:02:51.240 --> 00:02:51.599 Yeah, yeah. 25 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:55.020 Well, it's actually very 80s new romantic postmod, isn't it, with the island? 26 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:58.919 I like the boys are wearing eyeliner, do you think, by a small nod to the sand miner? 27 00:02:58.979 --> 00:03:05.099 It certainly that was part of the Sand Mitres vision of the future in that makeup is not just for girls anymore. 28 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:06.659 Everyone's a bit Nance. 29 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.979 Yeah, and I have always loved the sets in this story. 30 00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:30.900 I think what happened was some reference book called Interview, possibly, shared the fact that originally, this story was scripted to be dark and dank, and it's not exactly a forgotten base, but they've been down there a long time, but someone pointed out, hold on, we've got that further down the line on this prison in Resurrection of the Daleks. 31 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:32.520 We don't want to have too similar looking things. 32 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:35.219 Doctor Who not wanting to reuse sets. 33 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:35.639 What going on? 34 00:03:35.699 --> 00:03:39.840 But they also have that rule from the BBC about illumination contrast. 35 00:03:39.900 --> 00:03:43.680 So you weren't allowed to provide dark sex unless you were doing a Dickens. 36 00:03:43.740 --> 00:03:49.560 I don't know why things were suspended for classics, but not for this because it's still the drama department. 37 00:03:49.620 --> 00:03:56.460 I think it's shot on videotape in the studio and I think that, you know, the televisions of the time needed to read is on. 38 00:03:56.520 --> 00:04:01.740 You can't actually have a very dark frame at all in Doctor Who at this time. 39 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:05.400 Yeah, I mean, the received wisdom is it should be in a submarine. 40 00:04:05.460 --> 00:04:13.979 It should be dark and atmospheric, but it looks like a sort of cheap version of mission control from Space 1999. 41 00:04:14.099 --> 00:04:17.399 But it doesn't look cheap at the time. don't think it looks cheap now. 42 00:04:17.459 --> 00:04:20.399 It actually has more complexity in the Space 1999 set. 43 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:22.199 It just doesn't have the breadth and depth. 44 00:04:22.259 --> 00:04:23.040 It doesn't have the size of it. 45 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:24.000 It doesn't have got the range. 46 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:25.680 I mean, it does have different levels. 47 00:04:25.740 --> 00:04:27.600 Yeah, it's impressive. 48 00:04:27.660 --> 00:04:32.339 I think there's a moment where Tegan throws someone against a wall or maybe Pete throws someone against a wall. 49 00:04:32.399 --> 00:04:33.360 I can't quite remember it. 50 00:04:33.420 --> 00:04:34.199 They get a wobbly. 51 00:04:34.259 --> 00:04:35.819 It wobbles like nothing else. 52 00:04:35.939 --> 00:04:40.019 But I remember being hugely impressed by the look of this show. 53 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:46.019 And even, I think, to some degree by the redesign of the monsters. 54 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:48.120 Do we want to go there yet? 55 00:04:48.180 --> 00:04:50.639 Before we go there, talk about plotty things? 56 00:04:50.699 --> 00:04:53.100 Well, I have one more thing to say about the corridors. 57 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:57.180 There's actually a bit, sort of, with the sea devils and soil orients advancing later. 58 00:04:57.240 --> 00:05:04.199 Spoiler alert, there's solarins and sea devils in this, where everyone keeps walking past the same section of corridor. 59 00:05:04.259 --> 00:05:10.980 Like the sea devils are going on one way and they're on level 4 and then pizza level 3, but it's the same bit of corridor because it's got the same lettering on it. 60 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:16.019 It wasn't pointed out to Lenny Henry did his sketch, but that came out after this, didn't it? 61 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:19.500 Do you remember Lenny Henry's send up at this Mr. Dawn French? 62 00:05:19.560 --> 00:05:20.220 Yeah, yeah. 63 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:21.540 Run up and down the corridors. 64 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:23.879 Yeah, no one apparently no one had actually said it out loud. 65 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.920 Well, not unless they were within cloistered fan convention circles. 66 00:05:28.980 --> 00:05:31.199 We've only just had conventions starting. 67 00:05:31.259 --> 00:05:38.819 So this is only a year in to fandom or doctor, what we take for granted now as being how this show operates. 68 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:49.920 We're only 12 months into the new who, the new world, which is the constant interplay between the observing fan or, you know, the dedicated viewer and the production office. 69 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:58.019 We've had Levine go and play little notes on his spinet before in little high notes there, but, you know, usually intrusive things, you go, ah, what was that? 70 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:05.220 But now it's a full on symphonic orchestration of fan reported wisdom and reportage. 71 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:09.779 And whether that's a good thing or not, I think we'll discover as the next few seasons unfold. 72 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:22.920 That's actually similar to my experience because this season is the 1st season that I remember reading a kind of spoiler-free summary of what the stories were going to be in some magazine. 73 00:06:22.980 --> 00:06:24.540 I seem to remember going Starburst. 74 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:26.279 Yeah, possibly Starburst. 75 00:06:26.339 --> 00:06:34.680 I don't think it was DWN, but I did know going in what the stories were going to be in vaguely what the shape of the season was going to be. an extraordinary thing. 76 00:06:34.740 --> 00:06:40.079 And I remember those, they were the pages that you really had to borrow your mum's hairdryer to get a part again, didn't they? 77 00:06:40.139 --> 00:06:44.040 Because of the sweaty fingers, Brendan, that made them click together. 78 00:06:44.100 --> 00:06:44.519 Stop it. 79 00:06:44.579 --> 00:06:45.180 Yes, it was. 80 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.100 No, the excitement of knowing. 81 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.639 But it's kind of like rattling under your parents' bed before Christmas. 82 00:06:50.699 --> 00:06:54.779 You shouldn't really know that kind of thing is going on before Father Christmas drops, don't you shoot? 83 00:06:54.899 --> 00:06:55.620 You shouldn't know these things. 84 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:00.720 I mean, now it's the sort of thing that it takes a really special conscious effort to avoid. 85 00:07:00.779 --> 00:07:01.980 Very much so. 86 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.800 But then it, you know, this was happening for the 1st time. 87 00:07:04.860 --> 00:07:08.579 And I remember being really, really excited about this upcoming season. 88 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:15.420 Imagine going to school playingground and having people being surprised that Tom had regenerated last night. 89 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:16.379 That happened. 90 00:07:17.279 --> 00:07:28.439 Yeah, whereas I think going in, I think we knew that this was Pete's last season and we knew that Colin was coming back for the last story of the season, which should turn out well. 91 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:30.360 Absolutely. 92 00:07:30.420 --> 00:07:31.139 Is this your story? 93 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:37.860 I noticed that there's a certain polish to your vim today, so there's obviously the enthusiasm's really infecting us all right now. 94 00:07:37.980 --> 00:07:40.379 What did you love the most about this wonderful stories? 95 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:41.399 Magnificent story. 96 00:07:41.459 --> 00:07:45.540 Let's do it like just a minute. 60 seconds, no repetition, no deviation. 97 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:50.339 No circumspection. talk with any of those. 98 00:07:51.180 --> 00:07:57.420 I do want to talk about what I think the big problem with the story is, can we do that? 99 00:07:57.480 --> 00:07:58.139 Yes, please. 100 00:07:58.199 --> 00:07:58.500 Yeah. 101 00:07:58.500 --> 00:08:10.319 So I think the big problem with the story, and it's going to happen twice this year, is that Earthshock was such a stunning success last year, even though we didn't really like it. was hugely, wasn't it? 102 00:08:10.379 --> 00:08:12.959 But viewers and fan thing. 103 00:08:13.019 --> 00:08:14.040 Yeah, yeah. 104 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:17.819 And so essentially they're just remaking it with Silurians. 105 00:08:17.879 --> 00:08:19.199 That's deliberate, isn't it? 106 00:08:19.259 --> 00:08:20.579 That was the brief to Johnny Byrne. 107 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:21.660 Yeah, wasn't it? 108 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:24.540 Although he said he rehashed a Space 1979 group. 109 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:27.600 But I haven't been able to find what this story was in Space 1979. 110 00:08:27.779 --> 00:08:30.240 No, they did bases under siege, did they? 111 00:08:30.300 --> 00:08:32.759 Well, only that Minbai Salfa was in itself. 112 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:36.120 But, you know, like Christmas decoration spun off the tree. 113 00:08:36.299 --> 00:08:46.500 So here, the Silurians are kind of cyborgy robot things, for some reason, they give them terrible electronic voices and like really terrible. 114 00:08:46.620 --> 00:08:47.639 What do you mean? 115 00:08:47.639 --> 00:08:48.960 Start about function. 116 00:08:49.019 --> 00:08:52.200 That's kind of like a 70s Silurian. 117 00:08:52.320 --> 00:08:53.340 Excellent, skim us. 118 00:08:53.399 --> 00:08:54.659 Oh, God, that's true. 119 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:59.879 And Brendan did that beautifully with a red bike flashlight sellotape to his head. 120 00:08:59.940 --> 00:09:02.159 What that frick is that? 121 00:09:02.220 --> 00:09:03.659 It's all the rage in Fiji. 122 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:04.320 Yeah it is. 123 00:09:04.379 --> 00:09:07.679 Yeah, so they've got flashing lights in their heads to make it clear. 124 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:09.000 Well, as we do, right? 125 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:13.019 Well, no one can see mine, but that's for another day. 126 00:09:13.019 --> 00:09:21.600 So the original costume that I was like that hilarious light that could make John Pertwee Gurn on demand. you know what I mean? 127 00:09:21.659 --> 00:09:23.100 Like, you could just turn it on someone. 128 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:26.639 But clearly no one's seen the show since then. 129 00:09:26.700 --> 00:09:32.279 And so they use it just as a standard Dalek way of letting you know who's speaking. 130 00:09:32.340 --> 00:09:35.039 I think everyone should have that in the iPod generation. 131 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:37.919 All these kids walking around with pods, you know, in their hands. 132 00:09:37.980 --> 00:09:40.440 I think there should be something stapled to their foreheads as well. 133 00:09:40.500 --> 00:09:42.659 So they're like a dialect eye piece. 134 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:44.940 Moffatt is ahead of the game again. 135 00:09:45.000 --> 00:09:47.519 Not for identification, just a staple something. 136 00:09:47.519 --> 00:09:48.539 Yeah, just to do that. 137 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:53.879 But it's like they've just looked at a photo of a Silurian and gone, oh, what's that middle I thought? 138 00:09:53.940 --> 00:09:55.259 Well, it must flash when they talk. 139 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:56.279 Otherwise, how are you going to know? 140 00:09:56.340 --> 00:09:59.279 I don't know, through movement or body language. possibly? 141 00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:01.679 I think it's to visually separate them from Ingrid Pitt. 142 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:04.440 So you can tell a different place. 143 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.620 The lizard with the flashing light in its head. 144 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:10.200 That's the same... 145 00:10:10.259 --> 00:10:16.019 We should name check Ms. Pitt, who plays what, Dr. Solo, who was cast up. 146 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.000 She was actually going to play Preston. 147 00:10:18.059 --> 00:10:18.539 Did you know that? 148 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.360 She was going to play the Annie Lambert-esque kind of character. 149 00:10:21.419 --> 00:10:25.860 He doesn't do anything but wander around and be depressed, which he runs a suburb in Melbourne. 150 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.740 She does run like a girl, but then so did Roger Moore, as we know. 151 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.620 And Peter actually, it has got a little bit of the expert. 152 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:33.059 No, since we've been doing Bondfinger. 153 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:36.179 Have you been noticing the crossover in Pete and Rogers performances? 154 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:42.480 I'd like to think they were informed by each other to some extent because Pete does run. a little bit like Rog. 155 00:10:42.539 --> 00:10:43.919 Sorry, Pete, I know you're listening properly. 156 00:10:43.980 --> 00:10:45.480 In terms of... 157 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:50.460 In terms of both Preston and Antaraward, this is another example of director Pennant Roberts. 158 00:10:50.519 --> 00:10:51.600 Yes. 159 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:52.799 Can we get on? 160 00:10:52.799 --> 00:10:55.200 Women enrol, which written for men? 161 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:58.440 And not changing a single line, like Man in the Sunmakers. 162 00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:00.360 What are you doing, man? 163 00:11:00.419 --> 00:11:01.139 That was great. 164 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:02.940 Can we do that? 165 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:10.919 In the script, the only role written as a woman, aside from Tegan, of course, was Karina. 166 00:11:10.980 --> 00:11:11.820 Yeah. 167 00:11:12.419 --> 00:11:18.000 And doesn't she get about the set in a pouty, terrible, discordant, tiresome way? 168 00:11:18.059 --> 00:11:19.919 Something I actually really like. 169 00:11:19.980 --> 00:11:22.440 I like the lawyers on the phone. 170 00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:26.700 Sorry. like most of the human characters in this. 171 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:28.980 I actually had them very welcome, aren't they? 172 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.259 Yeah, the rounded, maybe? 173 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.059 And the relationship... 174 00:11:33.059 --> 00:11:34.080 Are you saying no? 175 00:11:34.139 --> 00:11:34.559 No. 176 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:41.879 Well, okay, the relationship between Maddox and Karina, for instance, they only get a few scenes together before spoiler alert. 177 00:11:41.940 --> 00:11:43.019 He's forced to murder her. 178 00:11:43.139 --> 00:11:46.200 Which is awful, can I say, just as a spoiler alert. 179 00:11:46.259 --> 00:11:47.039 It is awful. 180 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.340 Well, the show is a massacre and probably that's... 181 00:11:50.460 --> 00:11:54.539 But because of the way they've played those few scenes leading up to it. 182 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:05.820 And because of the way Martin Neal plays Maddox in that scene, you know, it's like he has no control over his body, but facially he is just furious at his own impotence in the situation. 183 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:13.500 If you look back to, say, robots of death, which is unquestionably a better story, and you compare Zelda to Karina. 184 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:17.460 Zelda has a lot more screen time, but I think Karina's death is a lot more effective. 185 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.639 Quite similar in so many ways to past stories. 186 00:12:20.700 --> 00:12:35.159 I think the Maddox character is the only one that is actually properly rounded out and the most fragile character and also that what the hell is wrong with this story. single biggest creative choice, but we'll get onto that later. 187 00:12:35.220 --> 00:12:35.940 What are you going to say? 188 00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:45.299 There's a problem with bases under siege, and it's been a long while since we've recorded an episode, so I'm going to name check Sander. take a drink. 189 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:58.080 And he says that one of the problems with bases under siege that are poorly written is that the only real characteristics that any of the characters have is how well do they cope with a base under siege or what side are they on? 190 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:11.100 Like the only person here who has any personality or personal characteristics is Maddox, but everyone else is just a uniform, you know, to react to the monsters and maybe get killed. 191 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:13.620 And that's sort of boring, I think. 192 00:13:13.740 --> 00:13:23.580 And it does mean just the endless deaths, like everyone gets killed one by one, you know, they're not really impactful. 193 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:31.139 There's scene after scene of people in corridors shooting guns at other people in rubber who are shooting guns at them. 194 00:13:31.259 --> 00:13:33.659 It's like an Angela Lansbury murder she wrote. 195 00:13:33.779 --> 00:13:35.580 Same damn thing. 196 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:38.519 It's like Agatha Christie is still writing in 1984. 197 00:13:38.700 --> 00:13:42.419 You know who I think is the biggest letdown in terms of performance in this story? 198 00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:43.500 Say Peter, go on. 199 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:44.580 It's Tom Adams. 200 00:13:44.639 --> 00:13:45.840 Which one's he? 201 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:46.620 Oh, he's the hot seat. 202 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:48.000 He's Commander Vorsack. 203 00:13:48.059 --> 00:13:48.840 And yes, he's hot. 204 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:52.200 And he's also a brilliant actor. 205 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:53.460 But in this, he's terrible. 206 00:13:53.519 --> 00:13:54.539 What is he in? 207 00:13:54.600 --> 00:14:05.100 Listeners of the podcast may remember him from the Latter-day Avengers episode Takeover, one of the best Tara King episodes, where he's a very good menacing villain. 208 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:09.600 He's played quite a few villains over the years and authority figures. 209 00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:12.539 And he just seems a bit lost in this, really. 210 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.120 Everyone kind of holds up Beryl Reeders. 211 00:14:15.179 --> 00:14:16.620 Beryl Reed didn't know what she was saying. 212 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:18.840 No, she didn't know what she was saying, but she knew the emotion of the scene. 213 00:14:18.899 --> 00:14:20.039 I don't think Tom Adams does. 214 00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:24.779 Yeah, well I think the whole thing's so underwritten, though, that there's not really much for him to do. 215 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.120 Can we talk about the villains? 216 00:14:27.179 --> 00:14:27.960 Yes. 217 00:14:28.019 --> 00:14:30.360 So we have, is it Ian? 218 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:31.860 I want to say Ian McCulloch. 219 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:33.299 Yeah, Ian McCulloch. 220 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.860 So Ian McCulloch was... 221 00:14:34.860 --> 00:14:36.299 Not the one from Micko and the Barneyman. 222 00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:36.539 No. 223 00:14:37.860 --> 00:14:39.120 He was in Survivors. 224 00:14:39.179 --> 00:14:41.399 He was in the first... 225 00:14:41.460 --> 00:14:41.940 Was that tire? 226 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:42.720 Did you find that tiresome? 227 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:43.799 I did. 228 00:14:43.860 --> 00:14:47.399 I've watched all of Survivors, and I have a medal to prove it. 229 00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:54.120 So he's in the 1st 2 seasons before he gets sick of it and goes off to be replaced by Dennis Lil, more of whom next week. 230 00:14:54.179 --> 00:14:59.100 You know, he was originally cast as Commander LoveSheck, whatever it was, really. 231 00:14:59.159 --> 00:15:00.419 Yeah, Commander War show. 232 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:01.379 Yeah, it was. 233 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:04.080 Oh, and they decided to make him the villa. 234 00:15:04.139 --> 00:15:05.519 Yeah, go forces. 235 00:15:05.580 --> 00:15:09.659 Because Tom Adams, I've now remembered, was most famous for the Oneedin line. 236 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:11.159 Peter Gilmore as well. 237 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:15.179 In front bottom Zos off, whatever we're going to start with. 238 00:15:15.179 --> 00:15:18.539 In 2 weeks time. where we'll be enraging Christopher Bidmead once more, I'm sure. 239 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:19.259 Yeah, yeah. 240 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.080 Fond listener of the podcast, as he is. 241 00:15:22.139 --> 00:15:36.120 So Ian McCulloch was in Survivors, and he plays just a really, really terrible, obvious villain and his scenes with him and Solo where they're just both villainying at each other in the most kind of like us on this podcast. 242 00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.159 Well, yeah, essentially. 243 00:15:38.220 --> 00:15:40.740 And he's got the worst Trump... 244 00:15:40.740 --> 00:15:43.980 Steady on Comova that I have ever seen on Doctor Who. 245 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.120 I mean, it's no wonder. 246 00:15:45.179 --> 00:15:46.320 Doctor Who's always been pressing it. 247 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:46.980 It really has. 248 00:15:47.039 --> 00:15:52.139 Well, also, I've been wondering who these 2 power blocks are because there's great bits. 249 00:15:52.379 --> 00:15:56.940 I think even at one point Nielsen says we work for the power block opposed to this one. 250 00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:58.740 It's like, yeah, we don't do names now. 251 00:15:58.799 --> 00:16:01.799 It's very it's very Patrick McGuan, isn't it? 252 00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:02.399 I like that. 253 00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.039 You know, but we do all frock up. 254 00:16:05.100 --> 00:16:09.240 I thought they were just a bit Eastern block because they always get the fashion a little bit wrong. 255 00:16:09.299 --> 00:16:12.000 Well, and they're kind of doing the accent. 256 00:16:12.059 --> 00:16:13.019 Certainly, Ingrid. 257 00:16:13.019 --> 00:16:14.159 Ingrid Pitts. 258 00:16:14.279 --> 00:16:16.379 Pitts always don't have very own accent. 259 00:16:16.440 --> 00:16:19.799 She's always Alexandra in Josie and the pussycats. 260 00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:21.600 She's always, you know, got her own take on the action. 261 00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:34.740 So in terms of these 2 blocks, you know, obviously we have English characters and we have European, possibly Eastern European characters, so by that extension, you know, we think maybe Russia might be in this block. 262 00:16:34.860 --> 00:16:38.159 So it's like, okay, so have Britain and Russia join forces in the future. 263 00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:40.559 In that case, who's on the other side? 264 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:48.659 The kid running the missile command game on the huge Commodore 64 screen that they've got up on the, it is missile command. 265 00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:50.100 Oh, it is Miss Holcombe. 266 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:53.039 On the BBC micro and hence terrible. 267 00:16:53.100 --> 00:16:55.139 It's no games again, isn't it? 268 00:16:55.200 --> 00:16:56.039 It's that 80s film. 269 00:16:56.340 --> 00:16:59.759 I think the other side is being run by President Trump's head in a jar. 270 00:16:59.820 --> 00:17:04.440 I actually think, no, I think it's New Zealand is one of the blocks. 271 00:17:04.500 --> 00:17:07.559 Everyone else in the world is the other block. 272 00:17:07.619 --> 00:17:12.240 So New Zealand is represented by the underwater reptilian races. 273 00:17:12.359 --> 00:17:14.640 It's Zeus Pod, isn't it? 274 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:19.799 It's the Zeus pod power block versus the flight through entire. 275 00:17:20.519 --> 00:17:23.640 Hey, we've got 42 to doomsday as well, guys. 276 00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:26.339 I think that's definitely it. 277 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:29.640 And it's New Zealand that runs the base and everyone else is evil. 278 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:30.359 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 279 00:17:30.420 --> 00:17:31.680 We're going to wipe them out. 280 00:17:31.740 --> 00:17:32.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 281 00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:37.500 That explains the fashion choices and odd hair, side ponies and scrunchy things. 282 00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:40.440 There are good things to say about this show. 283 00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:42.480 I think Janet gets to give it. 284 00:17:42.539 --> 00:17:43.319 This is the thing. 285 00:17:43.380 --> 00:17:48.180 Janet likes to complain that Pennant Roberts missed her out on Tencoke because her boobs were too big. 286 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:51.000 Every damn time you stick a microphone in front of a woman. 287 00:17:51.059 --> 00:17:56.339 And I said, well, the microphone got near your mouth, so I don't really see what the problem with, you know, getting a script near your face is going to hurt you. 288 00:17:56.400 --> 00:17:57.779 But anyway, love you, Janet. 289 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:00.539 But, but he just finished Tenco. 290 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:02.039 And that was lauded and applauded. 291 00:18:02.099 --> 00:18:03.119 I remember it as a little boy. 292 00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:05.339 It's one of the most powerful things I'd ever seen on TV. 293 00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:10.380 And, you know, it's about a Japanese run in Southeast Asian internment for women. 294 00:18:10.380 --> 00:18:13.500 And Louise Jemison is, of course, in it. 295 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:26.339 Stephanie, Stephanie Beach, Stephanie Cole from our favourite comedy radio podcast, Cabin Pressure, with Benedict Cummy Snatch, whatever his name is, and Roger Allen and people we love. 296 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:28.140 But, ba, ba, ba. 297 00:18:28.259 --> 00:18:32.519 This was like he was riding high as one of the BBC's favourite directors. 298 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:38.279 So this was seen as the story to open a brand new post anniversary, Doctor Who. 299 00:18:38.339 --> 00:18:41.880 Let's get the ratings right back up to the mid 70s. 300 00:18:41.940 --> 00:18:44.039 And this story was seen as the one that would do it. 301 00:18:44.099 --> 00:18:58.140 Johnny Byrne is a lauded international SF screenwriter seen from Space 1979, the biggest budget television program ever made in the UK up until bride's had revisited. which of course had just been on. 302 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.900 So big budget, big sets, big names. 303 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.299 This for Doctor Who is a big name cast. 304 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.200 It has some extraordinary choices, plus and minus. 305 00:19:07.259 --> 00:19:09.420 John Nathan Turner made 2 choices for this one. 306 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.920 One was to include the market. 307 00:19:10.980 --> 00:19:21.839 The other one was to have the drowning scene with the doctor, which for me at this age, and I think up to this point in the show's history is the most dramatic moment for the doctor, apart from a regeneration we've ever seen. 308 00:19:21.900 --> 00:19:23.160 It looks harrowing. 309 00:19:23.220 --> 00:19:30.059 It does look very good, and it is a big surprise to see them come into that set and have there be water at the bottom of it. 310 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:32.759 Like it's something that we haven't really seen before. 311 00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:36.059 But it is done in a bit of a perfunctory way. you think so? 312 00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:37.500 Well, not a surprising way. 313 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:40.680 He falls into the water until suddenly says... 314 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.799 And Turley says, he's dead. 315 00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:47.460 No one can survive it in the water for more than sort of 5 seconds. 316 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:48.299 He must be dead. 317 00:19:48.359 --> 00:19:52.440 The thing is, like, I'd always thought of everything as well, but I have looked into it. 318 00:19:52.500 --> 00:19:55.980 You can hit the water and drown almost instantly from that height. 319 00:19:56.039 --> 00:19:56.700 Right. 320 00:19:56.700 --> 00:20:07.559 And I think it's the fact that he's looking down and it's still a bit melodramatic, especially seeing as he just seems to wake up in the water for no regular apparent reason 5 seconds later. 321 00:20:07.619 --> 00:20:12.359 He was just having a little rest. before diving down and opening up that thing. 322 00:20:12.420 --> 00:20:15.960 We should all mention it's actually Gareth Milne, as Pete owns. 323 00:20:16.019 --> 00:20:16.200 Yeah. 324 00:20:16.259 --> 00:20:21.779 A.A. Milnes, younger and unbeloved son, who was, yes, who was Eor in the books. 325 00:20:21.779 --> 00:20:22.500 Right. 326 00:20:22.500 --> 00:20:24.900 And a very abusive child. 327 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:27.660 I have to agree with you, Richard. 328 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:29.339 Janet is great in the story. 329 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:30.180 She is. 330 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:37.079 That's the point, is that, you know, I'm sorry, and we interrupt ourselves speaking as hello, listener, but Roberts was seen as a really terrific director. 331 00:20:37.140 --> 00:20:38.519 It was a coup to get him back again. 332 00:20:38.579 --> 00:20:41.819 You know, it's not Ron Jones, as we're going to later see in the season. 333 00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:46.440 And the thing is, he really knows how to work with people as far as set pieces and drama. 334 00:20:46.559 --> 00:20:51.299 Maybe not. as we'll get to with the action scenes of this, but he gets actors. 335 00:20:51.359 --> 00:20:55.200 And yet, I don't know that we're actually getting that in this story, are we? 336 00:20:55.259 --> 00:20:56.759 We get it from Janet, I would argue. 337 00:20:56.819 --> 00:21:00.779 I think it's all too underwritten, there's nothing for any of the anchors to latch onto. 338 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:02.339 Pete is totally convincing. 339 00:21:02.339 --> 00:21:03.480 Oh, yeah. 340 00:21:03.539 --> 00:21:03.900 He does. 341 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:05.940 And I actually think he's had his best now. 342 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:07.319 He's really hit his stride. 343 00:21:07.380 --> 00:21:11.819 You know, there's that great bit where he's holding the gun on Borschak and Borschak's like, well, what do we do now? 344 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:13.380 And the doctor goes, oh, okay, here's the gun. 345 00:21:13.440 --> 00:21:14.220 See, you can trust me. 346 00:21:14.279 --> 00:21:15.299 Gorgeous, isn't it? 347 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:16.980 It's such an Avengers moment too, yeah. 348 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:25.920 And I mean, something else I love in this story is Mark Strickson sort of runs around threatening people with a gun and then when they do what he wants, he's just like, oh, okay. 349 00:21:25.980 --> 00:21:32.519 He's got a fantastic panicked way of holding a gun and he'll do it again in frontios. 350 00:21:32.579 --> 00:21:39.960 But he's sort of lanky and the way he runs all sort of hunched over and uncoordinated and panicked. 351 00:21:40.019 --> 00:21:42.960 Like, let's talk about Burlow. 352 00:21:43.019 --> 00:21:48.359 Yes, please. the companions because I honestly think this is the tightest team we've had in the TARDIS for a long time. 353 00:21:48.420 --> 00:21:51.900 Todd thinks it's the best regular cast of the 1980s. 354 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:53.700 You may be right, actually. 355 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:59.880 Although I still love the character of Nissa, and I, because I love Sarah Sutton, I don't think she was, we've covered this before. 356 00:21:59.880 --> 00:22:04.079 Nissa was, to the 80s, what Susan was to the early 60s. 357 00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:10.380 And I think later with Silv and Sophie, we're going to have a lot more of a sparky, bouncy... 358 00:22:10.440 --> 00:22:10.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 359 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:12.180 But for where we are now. 360 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:13.980 I think this is the best that we've had. 361 00:22:14.039 --> 00:22:15.119 Yeah, absolutely. 362 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:20.339 Particularly since Janet's really on form, she gets to be sort of reasonably intelligent and proactive. 363 00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.480 She's great in this. 364 00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:22.680 There's even... 365 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:29.160 Look, I mean, I think this story is awash and magically... 366 00:22:29.220 --> 00:22:34.079 But, you know, thematically, there's really not much going on here, except I think in episode four. 367 00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:44.339 Pete has the choice to wipe out the Silurians and the sea devils using their hexachromite gas, which is conveniently set up for them in episode one. 368 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:50.220 We need to come back to that because that's entirely topical at the moment with toxic waste and water supplies. 369 00:22:50.279 --> 00:22:56.160 Hexachromide is used for chromium plating of furniture, and it's one of the most toxic chemicals we have in the world. 370 00:22:56.220 --> 00:22:58.140 It's causing problems in Australia. 371 00:22:58.200 --> 00:23:03.180 It's caused massive problems with potable water supplies in the US or yeah, chromite 6. 372 00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:05.160 So they were really onto a lot of things here. 373 00:23:05.220 --> 00:23:12.599 So they use it to set up a moral dilemma where Pete has to decide essentially to gas everyone in order to save the world. 374 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:18.359 And Tegan thinks he should do it, but she's not bloodthirsty or vindictive. 375 00:23:18.420 --> 00:23:20.880 She's not doing it because she wants to get the silurian. 376 00:23:20.940 --> 00:23:22.859 She's doing it because she's made this moral calculus. 377 00:23:22.980 --> 00:23:24.599 She's a white Australian from Brisbane. 378 00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:26.519 Yeah, we kill stacks of things. 379 00:23:26.579 --> 00:23:28.920 And Pete's reluctant to do it. 380 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:37.380 And I think that's all fairly underdeveloped and not that great, but it really is the closest thing that the story has to some kind of thematic content. 381 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:46.079 It's a bit of a cheat because they spend about 10 minutes with the doctor stumbling about saying, oh, you know, we have to find something else that'll do the same job and then they just don't. 382 00:23:46.140 --> 00:23:48.660 And they go with the original choice anyway. 383 00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.440 And they were never going to. 384 00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:53.039 You're not introducing its Chekhovs, you know, hexochromite gas. 385 00:23:53.099 --> 00:24:00.900 You're not going to introduce it in episode one, say that it kills reptiles in marine life, and then not use it to kill all the Silurians in episode four. 386 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.059 It's obviously set up that way. 387 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:04.680 So it's a foregone conclusion. 388 00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:05.279 Yeah. 389 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:12.839 And I think there's something terrible about writing a story that puts the doctor in the position of gassing a whole bunch of people to save everyone. 390 00:24:12.900 --> 00:24:25.200 And the fact that everyone is dead at the end of it except for the regular cast, and that, you know, Turlo shoots a silure in in the chest, you know, these blank range, the gun. 391 00:24:25.259 --> 00:24:29.039 Brendan, everything Nathan's pointing out a SayWad rewrites of the burn screen. 392 00:24:29.099 --> 00:24:38.640 Yeah, I'm not at all surprised to hear that because he wants to turn it into Earthshock, and he'll do it later on in the year with Resurrection of the Dale. of his own marriages, but it's okay. 393 00:24:38.700 --> 00:24:40.799 Four words I never use often. 394 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:42.660 In Eric Saywood's defence. 395 00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.660 Have a drink, listener. your 1st for the day. 396 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:49.980 At this point, Johnny Byrne was living in America and unavailable to perform rewrites. 397 00:24:50.039 --> 00:24:59.880 And apparently the 1st set of scripts came in and episode one was under episode 3 and 4 were badly misstructured, and episode 2 was double length. 398 00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:00.599 Right. 399 00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:02.940 So he sort of had to crowbar it all in. 400 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:05.700 We also had big production problems in this. 401 00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:08.339 Now, people might look at the mercury and say, that looks unfinished. 402 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:10.799 Do you want to know who is ultimately to blame for that? 403 00:25:10.859 --> 00:25:12.420 I'd like to say Margaret Thatcher. 404 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.400 I'm going for Margaret Thatcher as well. 405 00:25:14.460 --> 00:25:19.259 In the wake of the Falkland War, Margaret Thatcher called the snap election, which... 406 00:25:19.319 --> 00:25:19.680 Yeah. 407 00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:24.539 Which moved up production of worries of the deep by a week. 408 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:33.119 Matt Irvine had a lot to say, the FX guy on this, and I've had perhaps unfavourable things to say against Matt's work, but considering, how long did he actually have to do this? 409 00:25:33.180 --> 00:25:47.759 he was a designer on this for, I think this is his 1st go at being able to be a designer and being in charge of the models, we get an ex-wing fighter as a Star Wars death satellite, one year into the Reagan plan. and it's made of Star Wars model. 410 00:25:47.819 --> 00:25:49.799 Very squee when you're that age. 411 00:25:49.859 --> 00:25:53.880 I think that the underwater base model is gorgeous. 412 00:25:53.880 --> 00:25:55.920 Which is Ian Scoons, the submarine is beautiful. 413 00:25:55.980 --> 00:25:57.240 It's so spy who loved me. 414 00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:00.839 And on the DVD and I think it looks pretty good. 415 00:26:00.900 --> 00:26:01.859 Sadly, it was dropped. 416 00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:10.079 There's a deleted scene, CSO of Silurians walking along the seabed from their ship to the sea base. 417 00:26:10.140 --> 00:26:16.859 And of course, it looks like 1980s Doctor Who's CSO, but it doesn't look any worse than any other Doctor Who ACSO. 418 00:26:16.859 --> 00:26:19.559 I'll just say, because I'll figure something out. 419 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:23.220 Sorry, because I'll just forget, we're talking about the contemporaneity of the story and how it fits in. 420 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:31.980 I had 2 girls this year in class burst into tears in front of me, not of my own doing because they were sure that the bomb was going to drop. 421 00:26:32.099 --> 00:26:38.400 This was still very much Cold War, and this is right on the money of Cold War. 422 00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:43.500 This, in fact, I just like to say that Doctor Who started on the day of the Kennedy assassination. 423 00:26:43.500 --> 00:26:44.279 It ended. 424 00:26:44.339 --> 00:26:50.160 I think 4 weeks after the 1989 Destruction of the Berlin War. 425 00:26:50.220 --> 00:26:52.859 Doctor Who was very much a part of Cold War history. 426 00:26:52.980 --> 00:26:54.359 And this one really gets it. 427 00:26:54.420 --> 00:26:57.059 I think more so than any of the 70s stories. 428 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:04.680 Yeah, I did write in my notes that the allegory is very thin, but the allegory is so thin because it's so pervasive. 429 00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:11.039 Especially around this time of the Falklands and all the rest and with Reagan and Thatcher. we really did think that it was going to happen. 430 00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:17.220 I think the big giveaway is when any story is set exactly a multiple of a 100 years. 431 00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:18.420 Very Jerry Anderson. 432 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:23.759 And this is the 1st colour story set in the 21st century verbatim that we know it's the 21st century. 433 00:27:23.819 --> 00:27:27.119 I quite like the fact that at the beginning of the story. 434 00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:31.559 We get a little bit of an info dump from the doctor saying to her, you've decided you want to stay with us. 435 00:27:31.619 --> 00:27:33.539 Oh God, the info dumps. 436 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:42.000 But it's really sweet that this and the next couple of stories all start with pretty much Tegan wants to go somewhere, so they're going there. 437 00:27:42.059 --> 00:27:43.559 Oh, Tegan wants to see a bit of her future. 438 00:27:43.619 --> 00:27:49.799 And I love how the doctor and Turlo are both just slightly disdainful, but oh, it's earth again. 439 00:27:49.859 --> 00:27:52.380 Getting back to something we were talking about earlier. 440 00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:54.900 I actually really like Tara Warders Preston. 441 00:27:54.960 --> 00:28:01.079 I think, you know, she doesn't have much character written into a dialogue, but she does a lot of great reactions to things facially. 442 00:28:01.140 --> 00:28:04.440 Like when she wanders into the TARDIS, she's just like, check through there. 443 00:28:04.500 --> 00:28:08.940 I think it's another one of those cases where 2 guards go in and you only ever see one come out. 444 00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:12.119 So he's off chatting with the Earthshock Cyberman somewhere that's still in there. 445 00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:13.680 Oh, can be on here. 446 00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:16.140 Oh, he's Chameleon. right. have to figure out. 447 00:28:16.259 --> 00:28:20.160 We have to figure out this season who Chameleon is in every story. 448 00:28:20.220 --> 00:28:24.720 It's some skip it. but I... skip this. 449 00:28:25.380 --> 00:28:26.160 Yeah, come on. 450 00:28:26.220 --> 00:28:32.759 Yeah, the 1st episode of this story is all the solar ins and sea-based personnel telling each other their own names. you noticed? 451 00:28:32.819 --> 00:28:36.779 Yeah, but there is a huge amount of that among the Silurians and the sea devils. 452 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:38.099 The 2nd one is Dawn French. 453 00:28:38.160 --> 00:28:39.599 It's a little portly as well. 454 00:28:39.660 --> 00:28:47.039 I do love with Preston and Turlow in the cell at the other end where Turlow was refusing to go off and help Tegan. 455 00:28:47.099 --> 00:28:56.099 So he and Preston stick behind for a little while and then they go into, and every time Turlo tries to lift her into the shaft, she keeps, but Turlo and carrying on a conversation while he's trying to. 456 00:28:56.279 --> 00:29:05.400 It's a nice bit of comedy that is rarely for the 80s, actually really well played and really sweet, and Turlow just chucks a complete tantrum. think he's really good. 457 00:29:05.460 --> 00:29:06.660 I think he's really good. 458 00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:07.980 I did write in my notes. 459 00:29:08.039 --> 00:29:14.160 It feels like the 3 regulars have been airdropped in from a far better show. interesting. 460 00:29:14.220 --> 00:29:17.339 So I want to talk Silurians again. we do that? 461 00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:18.660 Wibblewobble. 462 00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:19.200 Can you do the voice? 463 00:29:19.380 --> 00:29:21.720 Excellent Nathan. 464 00:29:21.779 --> 00:29:24.779 So they're terrible. 465 00:29:26.339 --> 00:29:31.740 Partly the production problem that you alluded to, Brendan, is part of the reason. 466 00:29:31.859 --> 00:29:42.720 So the Lurians frequently don't have their head masks tucked into the back of their costume properly and adjust your dress before leaving, do listener. 467 00:29:42.839 --> 00:29:44.579 And the sea devils. 468 00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:50.039 And this was always a problem in the 70s as well, had kind of floppy heads that weren't on quite right. 469 00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:58.440 So look, I mean, I think that they sign urine costumes are probably better designed than the original Silurian costumes, but they don't put them on properly. 470 00:29:58.500 --> 00:30:05.099 And I think the sea devils look terrible and they miss their little fins and they miss their... 471 00:30:05.160 --> 00:30:06.000 They missed their little fins. 472 00:30:06.059 --> 00:30:07.079 Yeah, their string vests. 473 00:30:07.140 --> 00:30:07.740 Where were they? 474 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:09.059 feel very sad about that. 475 00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:16.380 But I guess I think the worst thing about them is that this is really the heyday of the Doctor Who Monster book. 476 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:18.119 No one has seen the Silurians. 477 00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:22.079 No one has seen the sea devils, least of all the people writing the story. 478 00:30:22.140 --> 00:30:24.900 They don't know what's unique or important about them. 479 00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:28.319 They were people who had a claim to the planet. 480 00:30:28.380 --> 00:30:33.839 It didn't quite work out in the cellularians because they basically wanted to poison everyone and stuff, you know, pretty quickly. 481 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:35.640 That's right. 482 00:30:35.700 --> 00:30:39.720 But every piece of continuity that gets mentioned is wrong. 483 00:30:39.779 --> 00:30:41.579 Yes, you know, completely wrong. 484 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:44.400 Like twice before we offered the hand to friendship. 485 00:30:44.460 --> 00:30:46.319 What, like that time you nicked submarines? 486 00:30:46.380 --> 00:30:51.299 No, no, it was that time when we tried to infect everyone in our, our bones station. 487 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.980 Like, that's not what happened. 488 00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.880 Why do the Silurians suddenly have battle cruises that Pete recognises? 489 00:30:56.940 --> 00:30:58.799 Why does he know what the mercury is? 490 00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.019 And is Ikta Ogdell? 491 00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:05.759 Like, who, like, well, the theory in the discount... 492 00:31:05.819 --> 00:31:08.819 Say this to your parents at Christmas, dear listeners, just find out. 493 00:31:09.240 --> 00:31:09.900 Watch your reaction. 494 00:31:11.039 --> 00:31:16.559 One day meant for men will turn to each other and say, easy. 495 00:31:16.559 --> 00:31:19.140 Tell young men out there are dying for it, yeah. 496 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:24.420 In the discontinuity guy, they raise the fact that when the solar ins say twice we offer the hand of friendship. 497 00:31:24.480 --> 00:31:29.700 It like, well, you can slightly twist the Silurians to be that because one of them was saying, yeah, let's make peace. 498 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:33.180 And no one in the sea devil says that for longer than about 2 minutes. 499 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.240 Because the masters there to kind of be evil all over them. 500 00:31:36.299 --> 00:31:45.539 There's a theory that there's a 3rd story and I think that's where friend of the podcast, Gary Russell's novel, The Scales of Injustice, which is a very, very good book. 501 00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:51.359 Yeah, so that's kind of how that slots in slightly if you squint. 502 00:31:51.839 --> 00:32:02.160 It is nice that you can drop Trouton into this story and shoot it on monochrome and it is a 60, everyone would have to react differently because it'd be Trouton, but it's a 60 story. 503 00:32:02.220 --> 00:32:04.259 I think Pete is the most trout nest. 504 00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.180 Very much so. brings it back, doesn't it? 505 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:08.819 Yeah, it's the panic and the running. 506 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:09.480 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 507 00:32:09.539 --> 00:32:10.319 And he does the run. 508 00:32:10.380 --> 00:32:13.079 And when I say run, he name drops when I see run. 509 00:32:13.140 --> 00:32:15.299 And of course, oh, I need a minor distraction. 510 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:17.160 I'm going to set a reactor to overload. 511 00:32:17.220 --> 00:32:18.720 And punch a bunch of people. 512 00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:20.279 I think Trouton would have done that. 513 00:32:20.339 --> 00:32:22.559 Kicked me in the face. 514 00:32:23.160 --> 00:32:24.960 Really? 515 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:25.559 Really? 516 00:32:25.619 --> 00:32:30.599 You know, my notes, my audio notes for this story have exactly that. 517 00:32:31.140 --> 00:32:37.380 Actually, it just leads to another wonderful character moment from Mark Strickson when Turlow's court. 518 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:46.980 And the thing is, the doctor's not around, so he's not trying to butter the doctor up, and he has that wonderful line of, if the doctor had meant the reactor to be disabled, it would be lying in pieces at your feet. 519 00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:52.920 It's more of that sort of clunky macho crap that say what is so famous for writing. 520 00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:59.579 I think it works for Turlo because Turlo is still in the stage where he really admires the doctor, but he'll never tell him so. 521 00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:06.420 With such bad dialogue, though. you'll get no cooperation from me, Si, you're in or whatever. 522 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:08.099 That is the line of... 523 00:33:08.160 --> 00:33:08.640 So bad. 524 00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:10.619 Yeah, I'd like to think that's not Johnny Burn. 525 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.920 No, no, I'm sure that's a word. the sort of thing that say would rise. 526 00:33:14.039 --> 00:33:16.920 He would never have written that for Tara King, would he? 527 00:33:16.980 --> 00:33:18.480 No, that's right. 528 00:33:18.539 --> 00:33:23.700 I think another big problem with the monsters, and I really don't understand why this is. 529 00:33:23.759 --> 00:33:32.579 If you look at the original costumes for the Silurians and the sea devils, the actors are incredibly mobile for wearing a monster suit. 530 00:33:32.700 --> 00:33:36.059 The sea devils are running around in the original story. 531 00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:37.019 And that. 532 00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:40.200 Not in the shooting person, however. 533 00:33:40.259 --> 00:33:41.339 Well, that's the thing. 534 00:33:41.400 --> 00:33:44.700 In this, it seems like they've made the costumes out of far thicker material. 535 00:33:44.759 --> 00:33:58.859 Johnny Byrne sort of envisaged that the Silurians were the officers and the sea devils were the infantry and he imagined them as a commando unit in samurai inspired armour, which is why Solvix has that silly hat. 536 00:33:58.980 --> 00:34:03.000 But his idea was, you know, they would be able to run. 537 00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:10.920 And suddenly they're practically encased in foam rubber mattresses, or, you know, as it is on this sea base, a door. 538 00:34:12.539 --> 00:34:14.460 No, they're terrible. 539 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:16.199 I mean, they really are just ridiculous. 540 00:34:16.260 --> 00:34:20.940 Gary Gillett has this expression, squabbling rubber, which is whenever... 541 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:22.019 He always has one of eyes. 542 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:22.860 I seen him, you know. 543 00:34:22.860 --> 00:34:25.320 Doctor Who aliens talking to one another. 544 00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:33.059 Have you seen have you seen his title on his on his blog that he had back in 15 years ago that his favourite things were Chitty Chitty Bang Bang and Group 6? 545 00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:36.000 A lot of things to love about Gary Gillett. 546 00:34:36.059 --> 00:34:37.559 Oh, yes, I see. 547 00:34:37.619 --> 00:34:42.960 Yeah, squabbling rubber is a collection of Gary Gillett's wonderful DVD reviews from Doctor Who magazine. 548 00:34:43.019 --> 00:34:43.679 Oh, okay. 549 00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.699 Which were the reason they're pretty much the whole reason I used to buy Doctor Who magazine. 550 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:47.940 Yeah. 551 00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:49.440 So they just look ridiculous. 552 00:34:49.500 --> 00:34:57.239 Like there are people in ill-fitting, badly applied rubber outfits, walking around very slowly to invade this base. 553 00:34:57.300 --> 00:35:00.539 And the Silurians look like they're smiling at everyone. 554 00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:02.099 That's the thing. 555 00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:05.219 They've got the Venus from Fireball X or 5 puppet. 556 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.400 You know, they're so peeled out and it's not the 60s anymore. 557 00:35:08.699 --> 00:35:10.380 It's just this. 558 00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:13.440 Well, they've got big dilated eyes. 559 00:35:13.440 --> 00:35:16.199 Yeah, something. very, actually, yes. 560 00:35:16.260 --> 00:35:17.820 There's a lot of Jerry Anderson in this isn't there? 561 00:35:17.880 --> 00:35:20.039 Yeah, and the reveal of them is terrible. 562 00:35:20.099 --> 00:35:25.019 The Solurians and the sea devils are just revealed in a standard mid-shot, you know, there's no sort of... 563 00:35:25.019 --> 00:35:27.059 Robert shoots like he's still in the 50s, yeah. 564 00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:27.539 Yeah. 565 00:35:27.539 --> 00:35:32.340 The weird thing is, like, a lot of people give Penn Roberts crap, but Face of Evil looked fine. 566 00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:34.500 Some makers looked good. 567 00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:35.940 Pirate Planet looked good. 568 00:35:36.000 --> 00:35:39.119 Like Pirate Planet did have the reveal of the captain. 569 00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:43.139 You saw him from behind and then he turned full face into the camera and that was really effective. 570 00:35:43.199 --> 00:35:45.659 Roberts rises to a better script. 571 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:48.239 I think I think it might be partially that. 572 00:35:48.300 --> 00:35:54.360 I think also he was a bit frustrated and disillusioned by being pulled up a week with the pain. 573 00:35:54.420 --> 00:35:55.440 Yeah, he's not a technical guy. 574 00:35:55.500 --> 00:35:57.900 He's an actor's director. old school. 575 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.659 I think he's better on location than he is in the studio as well. 576 00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:01.619 That too. 577 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:06.300 And we do have a studio bound story with maybe 3 minutes of pre-filmed work. 578 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:08.400 Oh, and I suppose the water tank stuff. 579 00:36:08.460 --> 00:36:13.739 So maybe 5 minutes of pre-film stuff, whereas most stories get, what, 10, maybe even 15 if you're lucky. 580 00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.079 It's not a bad story. 581 00:36:16.139 --> 00:36:19.019 And it has its... 582 00:36:19.079 --> 00:36:21.840 It has its character moments. 583 00:36:21.900 --> 00:36:24.480 I really like Maddox, so I really like Karina. 584 00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:25.679 I like bits of Preston. 585 00:36:25.739 --> 00:36:27.300 Her hair mostly. 586 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:28.260 Her hair mostly. 587 00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:37.920 But you've got a very talented guest cast. a very experienced guest cast and those 3 people I mentioned. aren't super experienced. 588 00:36:37.980 --> 00:36:39.239 They haven't led shows before. 589 00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:46.079 The people who have led shows and led movies, Tom Adams and Ingrid Pitt, are pretty terrible. 590 00:36:46.139 --> 00:36:47.760 Ian McCulloch. 591 00:36:47.820 --> 00:36:51.780 And yeah, well, he's so bloody terribly forgettable, you know. 592 00:36:52.139 --> 00:37:00.420 I think they all did their best under duress, but in the end, it comes up to what that line that Dame Edman used to use a lot. 593 00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:01.079 Poised. 594 00:37:01.139 --> 00:37:01.920 Are they poised? 595 00:37:01.980 --> 00:37:19.739 But there are real flaws in the plot, and we just get fan wank, winge, is that why have you got someone who's really unsuited for the role to be the only person with a plug-in, and the only person who can also, you've got to plug into him to get the AM radio out and listen to the outside world or indeed communicate. 596 00:37:19.800 --> 00:37:22.679 Why does that have to go through their missile operator? 597 00:37:22.739 --> 00:37:24.599 Why have you only got one missile operator on the base? 598 00:37:24.659 --> 00:37:32.219 Well, I mean, the idea was that the previous missile operator was sneakily killed by Ingrid Pitt probably before the story opened. 599 00:37:32.699 --> 00:37:36.059 There was no inquiry or was there an inquiry? 600 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:36.420 Yeah. 601 00:37:36.480 --> 00:37:42.960 Look, I think the problem with it is that it's a clunky macho remake of Earthshock, it's... 602 00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:45.840 Camp macho remake, which should mean that we'd love it. 603 00:37:45.900 --> 00:37:48.719 Well, if it had Beryl Reed in it, that would improve it enormously. 604 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:50.340 Yeah, that's true. 605 00:37:50.400 --> 00:37:53.460 But it's nasty and everyone is killed. 606 00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:55.920 Yeah, it's awful. 607 00:37:55.980 --> 00:38:05.219 And, you know, like more aliens with green pus coming out of their eyes when they die, you know, there's just an unpleasantness to it. 608 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.760 You know, a sea devil shoots someone in the face. 609 00:38:08.820 --> 00:38:13.260 All of those people get electrocuted and lower themselves gently to the ground. 610 00:38:13.320 --> 00:38:21.119 You know, it's unpleasant and it's a place the Doctor Who is now going to mine. 611 00:38:21.179 --> 00:38:23.519 This is what Doctor Who thinks it's about. 612 00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:27.599 And so gone is sort of whimsical tea time entertainment. 613 00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:33.480 And instead, what you get is really poorly staged and fairly cheaply realised remakes of aliens. 614 00:38:34.860 --> 00:38:43.079 Yeah, I mean, even if you look back at the story that immediately springs to mind, like what story is like this in the 70s is horror of Fang Rock. 615 00:38:43.260 --> 00:38:43.739 Yep. 616 00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:54.539 But even if you look back at that, you have that beautiful scene where Adelaide and Leila discuss honouring traditions, but also honouring and listening to science. 617 00:38:54.780 --> 00:39:15.059 The equivalent of that in this is the aforementioned comedy, and I suppose comedy padding scene of Turlo and Preston in the cell, which is enjoyable when it's a moment of lightness, but it doesn't have the same poignancy of Leila saying there are better ways in science and Adelaide being momentarily changed before she's horribly murdered. 618 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:23.940 Well, I mean, I think that Horror Fang Rock is like a haunted house horror film where people are being picked off one by one and it's being terrifying. 619 00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:29.340 But what it doesn't have is endless scenes of people firing guns at one another. 620 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:31.320 And that's not terror. 621 00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:35.219 There's just a kind of bleak nastiness to this. 622 00:39:35.219 --> 00:39:44.760 And I think it's entirely Saywood's fault and it's just going to get worse and worse over the rest of the season and next season. 623 00:39:44.820 --> 00:39:45.840 Yeah, it is. 624 00:39:45.900 --> 00:39:49.860 I don't remember Burns scripts on any of the other shows we've mentioned being this bleak. 625 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:53.219 Yeah, people of Trarkan has hardly any guns in it at all. 626 00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:55.260 Got a hell of a lot of frock, though. 627 00:39:56.039 --> 00:40:04.980 Yeah, I mean, even in stuff for Space 1999, you might have had a couple of deaths, but you still have your main cast of 8 who are alive at the end. 628 00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:11.760 And also Space 1999 with deaths there, the characters mourn and discuss the death. deaths. 629 00:40:11.820 --> 00:40:15.420 Here, so many of the deaths are just uncommented on. 630 00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:22.380 Like Preston is shot and Tegan reacts for a moment, but then they've got a job to do, you know. 631 00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:25.139 It actually plays into Tegan's moral dilemma thing. 632 00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:28.199 Doesn't she say let's not let her death be vain? 633 00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:35.280 But it turns out one person does actually survive this story, which is Buick, because he's the one switching on the gas down in the thing. 634 00:40:35.340 --> 00:40:37.260 Oh, that's all right. 635 00:40:37.320 --> 00:40:43.980 Does the doctor, Tegan and Turlo, just bugger off and leave him to explain why there's all these dead people and lizards hanging about the place? 636 00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:46.139 and turtles? 637 00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:51.659 And can I also just say the sea devils as a combat force have worse name than Stormtroopers? 638 00:40:51.719 --> 00:41:00.960 Like when they're killing Nielsen, he's literally stumbling around on the spot, he's moving no more than 2 feet laterally and they still take about 7 shots to kill him. 639 00:41:01.019 --> 00:41:03.059 And again, that's just nastiness. 640 00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:06.900 We blind Nielsen and then watch him get repeatedly shot until he falls over. 641 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:08.699 Like, why is this painting? 642 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:11.460 Eric Saywood, why is this happening? 643 00:41:11.519 --> 00:41:13.860 A biography from milk publishing. 644 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.980 Didn't the audience figures reflect that what it went from? 645 00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:17.820 I do a todd moment. 646 00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:21.900 It went from 7600000 in the UK to 6.5 for the last episode. 647 00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:23.579 It's not really goodness me. 648 00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:26.820 The appreciation index actually didn't fluctuate that much. 649 00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:29.760 It's 65, 64, 62, and 65. 650 00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.460 So, um... 651 00:41:32.519 --> 00:41:37.260 Mind you, by the end of the season, it will have dropped 5 points, I'll be hovering around 60. 652 00:41:37.739 --> 00:41:40.679 So, circling the drain. 653 00:41:40.739 --> 00:41:44.940 We've done very well to only circumnavigate the Nerka. 654 00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:14.460 Well, we're leaving Buellik behind to explain the deaths of his superiors and inferiors as we are jet off into space to visit Tegan's grandfather 100 years ago. 655 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:24.000 Until next week, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes, where you can also leave a review for us, and at FTE podcast on Twitter. 656 00:42:24.059 --> 00:42:38.579 Over on Bondfinger, we have recently put up the wonderful commentary for a slightly less wonderful film, Never Say Never Again, and we'll be... 657 00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:44.579 We'll be back, we'll be back on Bondfinger in a few weeks as well, with Roger Moore's Swan song, A View to a Kill. 658 00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:49.139 You can find all those on bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes. 659 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:50.219 Again, you can leave a review. 660 00:42:50.219 --> 00:42:53.579 And Bond finger cast on Twitter. 661 00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:59.159 Until next week, may none of your sea monsters leave green paint on your plastic uniform. 662 00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:00.659 Thank you very much for listening a good night. 663 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:01.320 Good night. 664 00:43:01.380 --> 00:43:02.039 Good everyone. 665 00:43:02.820 --> 00:43:08.219 That was Flight for Entirety, starring Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. 666 00:43:08.280 --> 00:43:10.320 Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. 667 00:43:10.380 --> 00:43:15.480 This episode is Ikta Ogdell, was recorded on 19th of November 2016. 668 00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:18.840 The next episode will be released on the 27th of November. 669 00:43:21.900 --> 00:43:31.920 If you'd like an exciting new job in ICT with plenty of room for advancement and all the hexachroma you can eat, check out the listings for sync operators at LinkedIn.co.nzand. 670 00:43:33.539 --> 00:43:38.519 Warriors of the Deep. 19th November. 671 00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:43.619 Yes, go ahead, Richard. 672 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:44.699 Yes. 673 00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:45.900 Yes, it's fine. 674 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:47.099 Cool. 675 00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.599 I audible? 676 00:43:48.659 --> 00:43:49.619 You are audible? 677 00:43:49.679 --> 00:43:50.280 Yes. 678 00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:52.860 Yes. 679 00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:55.559 I'll be home. 680 00:43:55.559 --> 00:43:56.400 We're on. 681 00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:00.239 It's been so long, I think. 682 00:44:00.300 --> 00:44:02.219 No, we've done podcasts. 683 00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:03.840 We put the television on. 684 00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:13.679 Richard, could you just hold your microphone a bit further up? 685 00:44:13.739 --> 00:44:17.460 Actually, on the shaft, microphone, move your hand up. 686 00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:19.019 Can that be the out? 687 00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.880 I'm just getting some rubbing on my end. 688 00:44:24.840 --> 00:44:26.340 Oh, yeah. 689 00:44:26.340 --> 00:44:27.239 What did I say? 690 00:44:27.300 --> 00:44:28.320 All staying. 691 00:44:28.380 --> 00:44:31.320 It's like a carry on filming by five-year-olds. 692 00:44:31.380 --> 00:44:33.000 I'm sure I said that before. 693 00:44:33.059 --> 00:44:34.980 That's tautology, really. 694 00:44:35.039 --> 00:44:36.780 Eat more cake. 695 00:44:38.159 --> 00:44:39.539 Right.