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This transcript was created on 2026-06-07 at 16:52:15

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to the Peter Davidson Retrospective episode of Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, who knows that something is distinctly wrong, we can feel it.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm a heliotrope tinged limp vegetable for this one.

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We're looking back over all things Peter Davidson today.

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Over to you, Todd.

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Oh, thank you, Brendan.

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I'm so prepared for this after my month away.

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Okay, so here's my 1st question.

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Is Cameleon a companion?

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Nathan.

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Do you know, I hate the is X a companion question.

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Because I just think, like, what does it actually mean?

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Rack's a companion.

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Well, I think the hat rack's a companion and probably Catarina as a companion.

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Harshly that you didn't even draw breath between those two.

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No, because I denied it vigourously, actually, now, you know. did you?

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Well, I just don't think it's a meaningful question.

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And I think one of the great things about the new series.

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Sorry, Todd.

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Thank you.

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No, no, I'm not asking any more questions.

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It is one of these things that we ask, isn't it?

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It is so-and-so her companion.

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It is, and it is something that we all buy into his family.

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But I think it's like the question of canon.

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I mean, it's just it's not a question about the show. about what the definition of a companion is.

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And, you know, is Captain Jack a companion?

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Is Adam a companion?

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Can I change the question?

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Is Chameleon a worthwhile character?

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No, terrible.

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Although I did really, really like his turn as the murker in Warriors.

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I thought that was tremendous That's what I was going to ask because I don't think you've answered it for every single story in season 21.

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Who does chameleon play in each of the stories from this past season?

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So in Mories of the Deep.

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He's the murker.

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He's the merker.

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In the Awakening.

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I think he's Joseph Willow. and I think that he's he's he's wanting to to get vasory with Tegan.

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Although then again, Joseph Willow does express a desire to put on the queen of the May outfit.

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So, you know, perhaps chameleons in his experimental stage.

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I actually think it's Tegan's grandfather because he's actually did in a ditch.

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And so when she comes back to earth, there's going to be some more questions about Auntie Vanessa and the grandfather.

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Yeah, she spends a lot of time in jail, I think, after resurrection.

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And you know, of course, Colin doesn't speak anymore.

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He just kind of dribbles like, you know, he hasn't he hasn't recovered.

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Okay, so what comes after Awakening Frontios?

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Oh, cockerel?

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Because cockerel's pretty rubbish and doesn't serve any purpose in the plot. perfect for chameleon.

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That's not true.

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We did actually say at the time that it was the Scottish guy with the moustache from the village people. one of the one of the retrogrades.

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Okay, I actually think it's actually Tegan, because it's got the wonky walk and that sort of thing, and she's actually unconscious underground for most of the episode.

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And Todd, as we said in that one, that is because there was a whole lot cut out where Chameleon was in it and doing that.

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Right.

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Can I interrupt this answer to bring a piece of disturbing news?

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Friend of the podcast, Aaron Finn, pointed something out to me before our Frontios recording.

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I quite forgot, and he asked me why I didn't mention it.

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You know how back in the Pertwi era, you could occasionally notice Joe's Knickers?

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Occasionally notice it's full in front camera.

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There is a moment at the end of Frontios episode one where you can see that Janet isn't wearing any.

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Stop it.

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No.

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Is that how it got called?

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Was it actually originally called the end of the universe, but then they just called it Fronty.

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Oh, Fronty Oz.

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Moving on, who is he in resurrection of the Daleks?

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There you go, Aaron.

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He's the guy with the metal detector.

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Okay, no, seriously.

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Sorry, Janet.

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Now, at what point in front of your Stuart, does the gentle listener get to?

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To avoid time code will be good.

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Okay, just before the TARDUS is destroyed by the meteor, right?

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When they're hiding under an awning and they're all crouching.

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I think we can say a deft use of shadow, can't we?

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Well, he sent me a screen grab.

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So she's Sharon Stoning before she...

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Yes, that's right.

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See how the new listener's new year is going to be going.

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This is the Christmas episode we ought to be saying.

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I'm very disturbed by that piece of information.

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It's more than I ever would have grasped as a child. indeed now. with the woman, like 3 weeks ago.

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So moving on.

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So much more to talk about this to me, sir.

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Moving on in resurrection.

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Okay, yeah, bloke with the metal detector.

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And he's Howard Foster's pectoral muscles in Planet of Fire.

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Well, he's actually the master in planet of fire, isn't he?

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already has a thing to do.

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And he's Silver Howard as well.

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Silver Howard.

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We've just glossed over something important.

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You had coffee with Janet Fielding 3 weeks ago.

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Let's just move on.

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We need to hear what's been going on.

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I mean, that's why the listener treasures you on these things.

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He's still recovering from the whip marks.

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She's very lovely.

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Question two.

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What has been the biggest revelation in terms of watching these 3 years unfold for you?

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Oh, look, that youth is kind, and that age with experience brings cynicism.

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I could not get through this season this year.

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It took me, as I say, months to watch the Dalek one.

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It took me about, even took me 3 weeks to get through Andrew Zani, and I really loved Andrew Zani, but it is still a hard thing to face.

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But it's, I think, look, finally, what I really appreciate in the last story we just, we just saw is that it wasn't Pete's fault.

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For most of it, I was.

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And certainly as a child, I thought, oh, he's weird, he's female.

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I was really with Colin, you know, presaging the future that, you know, he was a feat.

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I thought, yeah, actually he was.

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Vanilla beige, we called him at school.

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I think it was a colour in the neighbouring catalogue that young men should not have known about.

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We were ahead of our time.

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Yeah, it really wasn't.

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He played perfectly.

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You can underplay and have a lot of power and Peter has shown that.

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Sorry, Mr. Say word, but you are my puzzling choice, even though I've defended you in the past.

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I think, and J and T, as say would say it, and is really clear what the scripts were about to get.

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So he did, he liked Pip and Jane Baker, and he liked Terence Dudley, because they did what they were told they were charming and they, and they were nice to have tea with, and they behaved themselves.

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He was the morgus all the time.

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He didn't like writers to be uppity.

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And he didn't like Bob Holmes.

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Did you know?

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We didn't mention this in the last story.

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Did you know JNT thoroughly opposed?

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The script of Evangrosani, didn't want it made, was hoping that we would just come up with something else and that twin dilemma really, really pushing to have more of Colin than he could, as much as he could get in this season.

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So, you know, and Peter was not happy about it the whole time, which is why he's been quite teasy about Colin around the set.

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And they got on very well because Peter's lovely and charming. you know, he said, you're after my job all the time, he would say to Colin, you know, because Colin was hanging around most of the set of Andrews Arnie, jumping up and down in the wings, getting excited because he's a proper fanboy.

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But yeah, no, as they would said, he didn't like scripts.

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He was there for the costumes.

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He was there for, and then for the sets, and then for the photo opportunities with the celebrities, which may, at the time I thought was just bitchy.

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And we remember Gary Levy, who then Gary Levy changed his name and was doing Doctor Who, DW, DWB.

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But this was a really cantankerous and really political time for young fans because we really did see it.

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You look at it, Brexit, look at Trump.

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This is the same attitude we had.

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We thought our show was being subverted.

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And I've come back to seeing that I think we were right.

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My revelation in this, it was kind of a revelation when I watched it through with Rod a couple of years ago.

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And now I'm even more certain of it.

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Each time I come back to Peter Davidson, as an adult, I see more subtlety and nuance in his performance.

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And I think perhaps a little unlike John and unlike Tom.

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When Peter gets a script he doesn't like, he, in a way, tries to put in more of his performance to compensate.

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If you look at terminus, which I would argue is probably in terms of script quality, his worst story.

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For me, of course, personally, Black Orchid is my worst story.

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I've talked about the politics of that before, but terminus in terms of all sorts of quality is his worst story.

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Whenever Peter's on screen, he is interesting to watch.

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He gets those action bits where he's trying to save Nissa.

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Whereas Tom and John would rise to a brilliant script.

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Pete rises to a bad script and kind of goes, I'm going to make sure this is as good as it can be.

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And I think it elevates the people around him.

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Interminus with the possible exception of the Garm, which would be very difficult to make into a good performance.

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I don't think anyone gives a bad performance, and I think it's because Peter is kind of setting the tone.

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I actually struggle to pick, you know, 5 bad performances from this era where I could easily pick them from the per year or the bakery or even the 60s.

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But you could pick them from individual baker stories probably in some cases.

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But here, I think without consciously doing so, and he's never really said that's what he was doing.

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I think Peter doing his best to have faith in the program, even when he didn't have faith in the program, helps to elevate it.

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It would have been a far worse era if when given a bad script, he just decided not to bother, because I think the people around him would have not bothered as well.

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So that's my revelation each time I come back to Davidson era, I find more and more to enjoy in Davidson's performance, and as a child, as you say, Richard, I found him vanilla beige, but now I'm kind of going, wow, you know, you are thinking about this part.

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I may not always necessarily agree with what you're thinking about this part.

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I think he's probably the actor who considered the fact that the doctor is several centuries old, the least, because all the other actors have talked about that and Peter never really talks about it.

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He just says, oh, playing the doctor's not an acting part.

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But I can see in all of his performances that he's thought about how an alien would react here.

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Do you know, I have to say I have the same answer.

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The doctors often, I mean, Peter Davidson's right when he says it's not an acting part because in the hands of, say, Tom or John Pertie, it wasn't really an acting part, it was them being charismatic and compelling to watch.

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Like, they're not terrible or anything like that, but they're not subtle and they're not acting.

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And Pete's successor will be along the same lines.

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You know, he's a charming person who's often fun to watch, but it's not a subtle acting performance from him.

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Same with Sylvester McCoy.

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Do you know what it means?

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Sylvester McCoy is a character actor.

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He's charming, he's fun to watch, but he actually falls down quite seriously, I think, when trying to convey some emotions.

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And Hartnell is a character actor as well.

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And I think the 2 best actors to play the doctor in the classic series are, Pat and Pete.

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And there's a lot of similarities in their tone.

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Yeah, yeah.

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Well, neither of them, like showbows or...

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To the medium.

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No, no, no, exactly.

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I mean, neither of them are constantly going, look at me at the expense of what's going on.

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And Pete's performance is fantastic.

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And he gets he gets this reputation for being kind of low-key and and sweet and bland, but he's actually quite tetchy and breathless.

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He occasionally does the panicky thing that Pat does.

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And the running, the thing that he brings to the part, which is hugely, hugely important from the new series on is he's the 1st doctor who starts running.

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And, you know, his final episode is him just running constantly.

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You know, we've covered this in a previous episode where Peter didn't do his own running, just like Roger Moore.

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That's a joke, actually.

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It's Roger Moore, do you listener?

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In fact, I'd like to see more of Peter Capaldi running because one of the things that Armanto Yunucci says about Peter Capaldi is there's nothing funnier that you can put on screen than Peter Capaldi running and I really want to see more of it.

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But I think Pete's extraordinary and really, really underappreciated.

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Right.

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Todd, we're all ganging up on you, Todd.

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Yes, listeners, they are.

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I have a new appreciation for what Peter Davidson has brought to the park.

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I'm not going to say he's extraordinary.

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I can't helping myself to say that, but I will say that season 21, the marriage of how the doctor has written in his performance and the frenetic energy that he brings to the part, knowing that he's leaving the part.

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He works it out.

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I can watch him in 21 any day.

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He's fantastic.

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And I appreciate the energy and little subtle things that he does in the other 2 seasons.

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I just don't like them as much.

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So for me, coming from like, quite frankly, the bottom of the bottom, like, you know, I have a new appreciation for what he actually does and how he actually saves a lot of things from being completely dire at times.

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So, yeah, so I have a new appreciation for him.

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So it's not, I'm not completely disagreeing with you at all, you know?

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All right, so here's here's a Snogmarrier void.

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For you all, for you all.

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19?

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20.

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21.

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I think this is easy.

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It's your turn though.

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Well, when they're 21, they've got more conversation. listeners. need to walk out the door.

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Okay.

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Season 19, season 20, season 21.

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Right.

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Well, I'll start with the void, and that's going to be season 20.

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That's easy.

217
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:11.639
21, I think I would snog, because 21 is massively emotionally intense and will literally kill you as soon as look at you.

218
00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:15.240
So I don't think there's a long and happy marriage involved there.

219
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:25.500
Whereas season 19 has breadth and it has variety and it has lots of different personalities competing.

220
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:32.100
And yeah, so I think I'd have to marry season 19 and if nothing else, season 19 has Neris.

221
00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:36.720
And yeah, of all the guest characters of the Peter Davidson era.

222
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:39.779
I think Neres Hughes as Todd.

223
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.779
I think she does you great justice, Todd.

224
00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:55.379
Okay. thank you No, I think it's, even though season 21 is certainly, I would say, in most respects, in most stories, and at least 5 out of 7 stories is superior to season 19.

225
00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:00.179
I prefer season 19 overall for its tone and what it does.

226
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.899
So, yeah, I would snog season 21.

227
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.620
I would marry season 19 and I would avoid season 20 like the Lazar disease.

228
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:18.720
Nathan, do you know, I don't think there's actually a possible answer to this question that's not the same as as brand news.

229
00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:23.580
And I would add that season 19 for me is kind of comfort food.

230
00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.940
It is a little bit kids TV.

231
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.379
It's a little bit kind of lightweight and inept in places.

232
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:32.700
It does have a lot of variety.

233
00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.860
Janet's still working out what to do.

234
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:42.899
You know, it eventually sort of finds its feat, but it's before Saywood takes over and turns the whole thing kind of horrific and cynical.

235
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.679
And so there is a sweetness to it and an innocence to it.

236
00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:53.820
And those terribly boring scenes where they're just sort of wandering through the woods of Castra Volver to the sound of that fabulous music.

237
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.639
Like I have very happy memories of that season.

238
00:16:56.700 --> 00:16:59.879
And I'm sure that that season and I could make a wonderful life together.

239
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:03.840
Who's your favourite guest star of the Davidson era?

240
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:07.619
I have a kind of favourite in the sense that I really like.

241
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:13.799
Oh, okay, yeah, because that story is really unrelentingly grim.

242
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:23.759
And because it will go on to have such a horrific effect on the program, but she is really terrifically fun and funny in it.

243
00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:37.019
But maybe if I was to take it more seriously, and maybe if I'd thought about it more carefully, I would have come up with someone else, but the other person who pops into mind is Leslie Dunlop, because I just think she's terrifically good in frontios.

244
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:38.220
It's a beautiful performance.

245
00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:39.180
Yeah, yeah.

246
00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:44.819
And I mentioned at the time, that scene where she's reminiscing about Captain Revere, and I think she does a really good job.

247
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:49.619
And when she comes back later in season 25, She'll be terrifically good in that as well.

248
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:58.559
Richard, I guess it just depends on whether you want to date the Mara, the Ergon, or the Merko. for choice.

249
00:17:58.619 --> 00:17:59.220
Really?

250
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.339
Maybe just take them all out for drinks and see what happens.

251
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:09.660
Look, I am, believe it or not, probably going to go down a similar path.

252
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:18.720
I actually, season 21 is my favourite of the 3 seasons, but I wouldn't marry it, like I would marry 19 because I think there's, there's some nice stuff in the earlier stories.

253
00:18:18.779 --> 00:18:20.759
I don't particularly like the latter part of the season.

254
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:24.720
So I would certainly go down that road.

255
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:31.319
And for reasons that you've all heard before, I don't like season 20 very much at all. hardly anyone gets killed.

256
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.059
That's right.

257
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:40.559
Although maybe maybe in that case we should change this just for this one to snog marry push off a cliff so we can actually kill season 20.

258
00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:43.740
In terms of guest time.

259
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:49.380
Oh my goodness, I've asked the question, but I'm just trying to think, who played the old woman in Kingdom?

260
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.660
Mary, Mary, Mary Morris.

261
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.339
You really liked her at the time, I think.

262
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.819
Although I don't particularly...

263
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:03.240
Although, you know, my thoughts on that story are what it is, and I don't consider it to be fantastic.

264
00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:06.420
I think her performance in that is amazing.

265
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:12.539
So she would be, just off of my head, one of the picks for me in terms of a guest star.

266
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:16.440
We have had amazing guest stars in the last 3 years.

267
00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:19.740
So we've had Nearest Hughes, Mary Morris.

268
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.019
We had John Carson, of course.

269
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:30.059
We've had Philip Latham, who's the Barusa in 5 doctors. other fool in the arc of in...

270
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:30.599
Leonard Sachs.

271
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:31.619
We've had Leonard Sachs.

272
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.059
That was him.

273
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.220
You know, we've had Els...

274
00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:36.059
Martin Clune.

275
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:43.079
Martin Clunes, Elspeth Gray, Michael Goff, you know, in season 21, even though he wasn't very good.

276
00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:48.000
We had Tom Adams, we were meant to have the dear departed Peter Arn.

277
00:19:48.059 --> 00:19:50.519
But we got William Lucas, who was amazing.

278
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.740
Are we getting more names now?

279
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.259
Do you think we're getting more recommensible people from?

280
00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:56.579
Because that's what JNT wanted.

281
00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.740
That's right And do you think that's been a good thing?

282
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:00.059
Yeah, I think it is.

283
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:08.460
I mean, people, you know, dis J and T. But, you know, JNT did at least at the beginning have an eye to what made newsworthy television.

284
00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:16.140
He understood how what television was, whereas the old crew understood what drama was and did it more as televised theatre.

285
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:17.700
And that's where they're coming from.

286
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.319
But no, but he got the bling of TV.

287
00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:22.559
I think definitely that gave it fresh life at the start.

288
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:23.700
Okay, at the start.

289
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:29.640
But do you think is your opinion of him as a producer changing ours, as we've headed through 1920?

290
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:30.359
done 4 years.

291
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:37.859
None of them, as we've seen with Russell and we've seen with Moffat, that, you know, three, 4 years is anyone's limit, is impetus goes.

292
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.000
It's very hard to stay fresh.

293
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:50.400
Even with Barry Letts, season 11, when we covered that, was better than we remembered it, but in a way, I think Barry kind of went for a final sprint because he knew he was leaving.

294
00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:57.660
Whereas starting with season 21, John Nathan Turner, that was the 1st time he thought that would be his last season.

295
00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:09.960
Weren't they trying to, didn't they ask somebody else to replace him as producer and actually were looking for somebody and actually asked, I can't remember the guy's name, but he actually turned down the job and then John Nathan Turner had to continue on as producer?

296
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.660
Yeah, and that will become a recurring theme.

297
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.559
Because people just keep turning down their job.

298
00:21:16.619 --> 00:21:21.900
Your circumstances make it better currently because if he leaves, the show is not going to continue, basically.

299
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:22.859
Yeah, exactly.

300
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:23.220
Exactly.

301
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.500
In terms of the guest stars.

302
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:30.359
We haven't had a bad name actor.

303
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:31.799
I know, hear me out.

304
00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:37.440
Tom Adams is a good actor, but he's really bad in Warriors of the Deep.

305
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:43.680
We've had some actors who have come in and I think just not given a very good performance.

306
00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:53.160
Tom Adams doesn't seem like the kind of actor who would deliberately throw a performance though, so I don't know what he was doing, but everyone, you know, people cite Beryl Reed and Beryl Reed's a great choice.

307
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:55.619
I know we discussed with Warriors of the Deep.

308
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:56.279
It's really weird.

309
00:21:56.339 --> 00:22:08.700
The best actors in that are the junior actors who don't have many credits, whereas the 3 sort of big actors, Ian McCulloch, Tom Adams and Ingrid Pitt kind of just give really strange performances.

310
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:24.960
But I think the other side of having this policy of trying to cast at least one big name actor per episode, is those big name actors then go away and they go to the bars where they hang out with their other activates and when their other activates say, oh, I've been offered a Doctor Who.

311
00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:27.059
John Carson might lean forward and say, oh, I did it.

312
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:28.559
It was absolutely wonderful experience.

313
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:35.700
You know, it's hard work, but, you know, Peter Davidson's wonderful and I worked with this very nice young chap.

314
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.859
They put him in this horrid skirt, but I'm sure he's going to go far.

315
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:43.200
I like to think that when you bring the cast in and treat them well.

316
00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:50.940
They're going to go talk to their friends about coming in and a common factor about people who work on Doctor Who in the 80s, guest stars.

317
00:22:51.000 --> 00:23:01.559
They generally talk about what a positive experience it was, unless it's a disastrous production, like terminus was with so much time cancelled and whatnot.

318
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:07.380
And even then they talk sympathetically about the problems rather than saying, oh, it was an awful set to work on.

319
00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:13.380
So I think the reason for the star casting, if you like, is twofold.

320
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.740
One, it gets people watching because, oh, I know Beryl Reed.

321
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.140
I'll watch that, whereas I wouldn't normally watch it.

322
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:26.220
And it also has the effect of Beryl Reed then goes to talk to John Carson or goes to talk to Tom Adams.

323
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:30.359
So when the offered parts, they're like, oh, yes, I heard from Beryl that this is a good show to work on.

324
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.299
Not implying any of those people actually knew each other, but I'm sure they did.

325
00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:48.839
So in terms of, like, besides the actors, in terms of, you know, we look back at, say, the Tom Baker era, and you can think of, like, the zygons or the we're in or monsters that created that stick in your memory.

326
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:52.380
Is there any from this era at all?

327
00:23:53.579 --> 00:24:00.240
Well, I mean, the Mar is the one that is often brought up by a lot of people in terms of a concept or...

328
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:00.960
And it gets a repeat.

329
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:02.579
I mean, it gets to come up.

330
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.619
Tereleptils.

331
00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:07.440
Yeah, I'm memorable.

332
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:11.700
They are memorable and I've gone on about them throughout the world.

333
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.500
Other than the Daleks and the Cybermen.

334
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:20.700
Are the Mara the only reincarnated, redesigned, regenerated monsters we've had in Doctor Who?

335
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.099
That's a very significant snaky substance, isn't it?

336
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.079
We've all gone a bit silent on this.

337
00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:32.400
I mean, is this a problem that there aren't really monsters that we are remembering or jumping?

338
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:33.480
Do you know what I'm saying?

339
00:24:33.539 --> 00:24:34.259
Do you know where I'm going with?

340
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:38.039
We all regretted that there were monsters in this one, apart from terreleptos, obviously.

341
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:44.880
Okay, well, you know, when they do do monsters, they bring back the Silurians and sea devils and basically rewrite them, not as the same thing and get a racket wrong.

342
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:49.380
But it's going back into the past, but in terms of new ones that...

343
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.400
Well, yeah, the Mara.

344
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:53.880
No, definitely, because of the way it was filmed and because it was a monster of the id.

345
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.900
This is the 1st series.

346
00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:56.700
Apart from Tom's last season.

347
00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:57.420
Thank you.

348
00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:09.359
CHB, that we actually discovered that the inner universe is as vast as the outer and that our mind is the undiscovered country and can be a wondrous and a terrifying place.

349
00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:13.140
I think the Mara is the most interesting kind of alien.

350
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.420
It's not even an alien, is it?

351
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.980
I mean, it's created from the human mind, you know, by those crystals.

352
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:22.799
It's an artefact. will do that to you.

353
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.200
Yeah, yeah, don't take drugs, kids.

354
00:25:25.259 --> 00:25:25.920
Stay in school.

355
00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:34.380
I mean, I remember, like, the, the, Washington Warrior Robot is the only other thing that bombs into my mind. filthy boost.

356
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.339
That, for me, as a kid was something.

357
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.000
Oh, wow.

358
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:39.480
Yeah.

359
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.339
I know, it's just respray.

360
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:42.240
Yeah, literally.

361
00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:43.140
And isn't it great?

362
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.180
And it is, and it's beautifully shot and all the rest of it.

363
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:46.319
In his hentai suit.

364
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:47.160
But is it a problem?

365
00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:48.299
There isn't more.

366
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:50.039
I think I think it is.

367
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:59.700
And I think the problem stems from the fact that most of the monsters introduced in this era, regardless of quality, they're kind of tied to the circumstances of their story.

368
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.720
Exactly.

369
00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:02.460
They're always 3rd guest, aren't they?

370
00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:04.259
And didn't you say filmed at the end of the day?

371
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.480
They always left it till the...

372
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:07.259
Yeah, exactly.

373
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.380
So, you know, the Daleks side, I mean, you can take them up.

374
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:11.640
You can plonk them in a new setting.

375
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.740
You can't really do that with a plasma on.

376
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.319
Or the magma creature.

377
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:17.400
Or the magma creature.

378
00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:20.099
Is there a big finish audio with the magma creature?

379
00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:22.259
Is there?

380
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:23.460
It's a box set, yeah.

381
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.079
The magma creature.

382
00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:27.660
The taran would be... actually quite good.

383
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.240
The monoise. sings the whole way through, yeah.

384
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:33.299
Actually, the monoids are in a burning field. they really are.

385
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:40.740
I was going to say, speaking of monoids, Eric Seward became scripted. during this time.

386
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:42.599
So we're cruel.

387
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.480
Have you seen his interviews?

388
00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:48.119
The hair is a monoid mop.

389
00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:51.299
To be fair, though, we are equal opportunities.

390
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:53.759
We're not just cruel to Janet or Peter.

391
00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:55.380
We're cruel to Eric Sayler, Janet.

392
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:58.380
I don't know if we should go there because I think we could spend half an hour.

393
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:00.119
On the same...

394
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:03.420
I think for me, as I said, he's the reason this hasn't worked.

395
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:12.119
But it's really, it's a conflagration of unfortunate experiences and JNT is a TV showtime, light entertainment producer.

396
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:13.740
So in the end, he didn't get Doctor Who.

397
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:20.039
I remember how venomous he was in an interview we all saw at the time about the Lala and Tom Casting.

398
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:25.440
He said, I really despise the nation of clever people being clever to each other on TV.

399
00:27:25.500 --> 00:27:27.779
There's no room for the casual viewer.

400
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.259
No.

401
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.319
And he was the wrong man for the job in the end.

402
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.299
I'm starting to be of the opinion.

403
00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:47.099
That not only did JNT and Eric Say would not necessarily quite get what Doctor Who was, which is a very difficult thing to do because Doctor Who can be so many things.

404
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:52.859
They each had a very different view of what they thought it was.

405
00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:58.680
And I think if either of them had had someone more sympathetic.

406
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:02.759
As we see in JNT's 1st season and with his last 3 with Andrew Carpel.

407
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:06.720
Yes, with CHP, they're sympathetic in their vision.

408
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:09.900
Because JNT's main thing was he wanted Doctor Who to look good.

409
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.359
And Christopher Hamilton.

410
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:20.039
Bit means perspective on that was, if you wanted to look good, you have to make the scripts as close to reality as possible and then extrapolate.

411
00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:24.660
And give the kids something science-y to talk about, which, at the time, I've got to tell you, we love.

412
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:25.680
Yeah, exactly.

413
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:25.980
Exactly.

414
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.700
If JNT's central vision of Doctor Who is, it has to look good.

415
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:31.259
There's nothing particularly wrong with that.

416
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:36.180
So long as you then have someone strong on story like Christopher Hamilton bit me was.

417
00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:44.400
Now, he wasn't always 100% successful in season 18, but I think when we were discussing season 18, we did come to the conclusion that, you know what?

418
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:49.559
Probably the worst story, quote unquote, is Megloss, and even then, that's a straightforward action adventure.

419
00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:50.640
You understand what's going on.

420
00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:51.960
You understand what people are doing.

421
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:52.980
A lot of fun, actually.

422
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.059
Yeah, exactly.

423
00:28:54.119 --> 00:29:02.759
Whereas when Eric Saywood comes in, I'm not really going to mention Anthony Root here because Anthony Root knew he was on temporary assignment.

424
00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:07.740
He didn't try to impose any vision, which I think is a very professional thing to do.

425
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:19.980
He was a, if you like, a technical script editor, he got he got the scripts up to scratch, as it were, you know, following the producer's outline and following the tail end of Bidmead.

426
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:26.279
When Saywood comes in, Saywood has this vision of making the show into an action adventure show.

427
00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:30.420
Which isn't bad if you've got the budget to do it.

428
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.160
And the time.

429
00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:33.599
So that's the thing.

430
00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:36.359
To criticise Eric Saywood's vision.

431
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:44.940
You have to take into account that we don't know whether his vision would have been right or wrong for the program because he never had the resources to implement.

432
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:48.359
Yeah, but as a script editor, you're responsible for the sum of your parts.

433
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:49.140
Exactly.

434
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.019
You know, you've got to work within your strictures, like Anthony Reed did.

435
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.519
Very much so.

436
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:56.700
Like that bloke in the hentire as the Rest and Warrior robot.

437
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:57.180
You do.

438
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:58.859
Both within your constrictions.

439
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:08.880
Well, I think Samuel's problem is that he was given this job too early, that the visitation is his 1st piece of television.

440
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.779
He is unable to write convincing dialogue.

441
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:40.079
Like his dialogue sounds stilted and unrealistic and terribly awkward, and that's going to become a giant, giant problem starting next week, you know, and going on for a while, that the dialogue just doesn't sound like anything a human being would say, and that he has a kind of level of cynicism that doesn't really fit with the ethos of the program.

442
00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:49.259
And if you read any of his novelisations, that's abundantly clear, they're always kind of horrifically nasty.

443
00:30:49.319 --> 00:31:00.180
And the closest analogue to that, and I think the reason that they bonded is Bob Holmes, and Bob Holmes, at novelisation of the 2 doctors, is also just horrifically awful.

444
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:12.660
But what Holmes has that Eric, say, would lax is simply talent, like Holmes is a good writer, uh, and a clever man, and and in symphaged.

445
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:15.900
Yeah, he's in sympathy with the ethos of the program.

446
00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:25.500
And he does foreground the doctor in, the doctor doesn't solve the problem, as we said last week in Caves of Andrazani, but he's, you know, central to the show.

447
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:37.680
But Saywood is interested in his hard bitten and cynical kind of various sorts of people, starting with military people, but expanding horrifically into sort of other professions and stuff next year.

448
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:45.059
Yeah, I just think he lacks talent and he lacks sympathy with the aims and ethics of the program.

449
00:31:45.119 --> 00:32:00.240
I do wonder if he hadn't been made script editor, if he would have become more talented, because as he was script editor, John Nathan Turner, of course, felt very threatened by bringing back any experienced hands on the show.

450
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:01.019
That's right.

451
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:03.779
So he was... because that's what I was going to say.

452
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:05.279
I think that's why Seyward was given the job.

453
00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:10.740
But I don't think anyone else was not available, but JNT needed to be in charge.

454
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:11.700
Yeah.

455
00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:17.400
And I think he found that working with Chris Bidme problematic on that grounds.

456
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:22.079
JNT was a fractious personality as we've seen and quite insecure.

457
00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:34.920
But it also means, as we'll talk about more next week in the twin dilemma, that John Nathan Turner insisted on using writers who are either generally inexperienced or specifically inexperienced with Doctor Who.

458
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:38.519
And that created all sorts of problems for Eric Saywood.

459
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:40.140
Crisis of Spurious morality as well.

460
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:40.920
Yes indeed.

461
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:54.180
You know, Eric doesn't sort of say, I rewrote everything, but he does single out several scripts, including The Awakening from this year, where he had to perform massive rewrites to get it into a workable state in front of the camera.

462
00:32:54.480 --> 00:33:03.000
Curiously enough, I find the ones he's had to perform massive rewrites on to actually be better than his own original work.

463
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:06.240
Most work for writers, the more they write.

464
00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:09.720
It's the opposite painting, the more you overwork it, the better it seems to get.

465
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:14.519
Well, anyway, for this sort of period, because even overworking, it's still within a very limited time frame, isn't it?

466
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:20.160
Yeah, I think Eric Saywood faces the same problem as arguably, in my opinion.

467
00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:22.559
Stephen Moffat has faced in the new series.

468
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:28.920
In that, the visitation and earth shock, I think, are 2 really good scripts, possibly his best scripts.

469
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:33.720
Stephen Moffat, of course, was the golden boy of the Russell T. Davies era.

470
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:35.700
Like, if you knew there was a Moffatt script coming up.

471
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:36.779
You knew it was going to be brilliant.

472
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:37.980
He had 4 hits in 4 years.

473
00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:39.240
And they were all good.

474
00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:46.740
As soon as he has to do really the equivalent of 6 or 8 scripts work a year, as well as rewrite everyone else's.

475
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.720
Of course, the quality is going to decline.

476
00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:51.420
And I think the same thing happened to Eric Saywood.

477
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:58.259
Resurrection of the Daleks probably would have been a lot better if Eric Saywood hadn't have had to rewrite almost from the ground up the awakening and the twin dilemma.

478
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.940
That's the thing.

479
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:09.179
I question a lot of his vision for Doctor Who, but I think if he had been left alone to get on with it a bit more, it might have been more polished and thus more enjoyable and more considered.

480
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:11.400
And I think it's interesting some of the points you made.

481
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:27.840
Like, had he just written for the show, like, one year as a writer, and then perhaps then come in and been nurtured, a bit like, you know, Bob Holmes was writing, and Terence Dix was the mentor, and then he came in with Dix and could see all the mechanisms of the show and then put his vision into practice.

482
00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:28.920
Look how long.

483
00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:33.480
It took Bob Holmes to get his, you know, maybe things would have been different.

484
00:34:33.539 --> 00:34:41.639
I mean, he certainly struggles, you know, from the moment he starts until Well, I mean, personally, I think season 21 is a lot better.

485
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:42.300
That's me.

486
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.219
I understand.

487
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:49.019
I think the doctor has written much better as opposed to the previous year.

488
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:53.280
Yes, it's it's nastier, but that's part of his vision, his action adventure, vision.

489
00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:54.960
So he is implementing that sort of thing.

490
00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:59.519
So I think it is a better and stronger season compared to what's gone before.

491
00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:08.460
But, you know, whether it's the right thing for the program, that's, you know, something that we'll be debating for the next few 100 episodes.

492
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.460
I think Eric Say would sums it up very well.

493
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:18.239
There's something he says in quite a few of his interviews and unfortunately a lot of his interviews are him saying, well, blame John, it worked when it left my desk.

494
00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:31.980
But there's one point he says, which I find intriguing. which is, I once heard him say, John essentially liked stories with big ideas, but the stories didn't work.

495
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:32.880
They weren't narrative.

496
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.340
They weren't you...

497
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:36.420
Yeah, you have a concept.

498
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.860
You need a story to go around it.

499
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.159
I'm just presenting that comment without further comment.

500
00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:48.599
But I think there is a problem there is that John Nathan Turner's vision and his vision are different competing things.

501
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:52.500
John doesn't want to employ people that are going to challenge him in any way.

502
00:35:52.559 --> 00:36:05.039
And I think listeners out there, fans of the show as old as what most of us are here on the podcast would know all the criticism that was fired at John Nathan Turner at the time.

503
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.659
Yeah, and I hated that at the time too. and I feel bad piling on.

504
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:10.320
Do you know what I mean?

505
00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:24.179
And it is nice to be able to look at season 18, season 24, 25, and 26, and see that while those have problems and, you know, varying quality and whatever, they don't have quite the same problems as the seasons in the middle do.

506
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:32.880
And so it can't just be J and T. I think, you know, J and T is wrecking our program is really was always the wrong approach to take.

507
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:33.719
It's a simplistic view.

508
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:34.500
He is part of the problem.

509
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.860
But he is not fundamentally the whole problem.

510
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:44.579
I think possibly the reason he became the focal point is because he was out there doing all the publicity.

511
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.440
He was also very controlling though.

512
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:54.000
Oh yeah, I'm not saying he didn't make a rod for his own back, but he then took the rod out and said, hey, everyone, I'm a piñata.

513
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.940
Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.

514
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.539
Whereas...

515
00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:09.659
Whereas, even now, Eric Saywood seems a very calm and a very quiet person.

516
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.519
That could just be dissembling.

517
00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:13.860
He's had many years to develop that persona.

518
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.579
That's true.

519
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:35.340
But if you also look at the sort of morning breakfast TV stuff from the time, if you look at it from Tom's era, it's Tom and Louise, or it's Tom and Laura, if you look at the stuff from the Davidson era, it's, it's the regulars. and JNT, and not necessarily always together, but certainly balance.

520
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.760
Like if Peter's doing a morning show, John will do a morning show as well.

521
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.980
You don't see Eric Saywood being interviewed.

522
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:46.199
You didn't see Graham Williams being interviewed on those shows or Philip Hinchcliffe or Barry Letts.

523
00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:48.179
You know, it was always the stars.

524
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:55.559
It's like JNT himself becomes a star of the show. think we're about to see that with the next casting, aren't we?

525
00:37:55.619 --> 00:37:59.039
I'm not accusing Stephen Moffatt of that, of course, not.

526
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.860
You mean that Colin is...

527
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.639
The producer in apotheosis, just like Capaldi is Moffat, yeah.

528
00:38:05.699 --> 00:38:06.360
Yeah, yeah.

529
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:12.179
And yeah, I think possibly to an extent David Tennant and Russell T. Davis.

530
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:15.900
You know, they both have the same kind of energy to them.

531
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:16.739
Yeah, interesting.

532
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:24.059
And of course, David was a longtime collaborator with Russell D. Davis, like Casanova and earlier productions as well.

533
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:29.880
The thing is, JT sort of sets that standard, which continues into the new series.

534
00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:37.380
And even with Philip Siegel on the telly movie, hosting the electronic press kit and taking people around the TARDIS.

535
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:42.300
So we kind of have JNT to thank for the modern role of the showrunner.

536
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:51.179
And I know there are friends of the podcast who listen and enjoy the Moffat era far more than the Russell T. Davis era, including my girlfriend, J.R.

537
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:57.900
Southall, and he and I have appeared on other podcasts, debating the merits of the Moffat era versus the RTD era.

538
00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.219
Which is wonderful.

539
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.139
It's a wonderful thing you can do in fandom.

540
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:06.719
And I think debating is fine, but as soon as you say 4 years of failure is all a person's fault.

541
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:16.619
It's always her I'm not a big fan of the Moffat era, but I'm able to recognise that he's done some very good things in his time and the bad things are not always his fault.

542
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.199
They needed a 3rd wheel.

543
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:22.679
I was just thinking that And then I remember, yeah, Brian Minchin, as well, for the same reason.

544
00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:30.480
As soon as Brian Minchin comes in, the quality goes up and that's not casting explosions on Caro Scanner...

545
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:32.579
You can't, yeah, you can't do everything exactly.

546
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:34.500
Unless you're Julie Gardner, obviously.

547
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:35.460
Oh, yeah, yeah.

548
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:38.460
You know, if you brought back Julie Gardner, we'd be back up to 10000000 a week.

549
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:42.480
Isn't Chris Bidme, just looking shining at this point.

550
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:44.219
Yeah, oh, yeah, history.

551
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:46.860
Okay, just to break things up a bit.

552
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.820
It's time for Snog, Mary, and avoider, right?

553
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.460
We need to get a bit light here.

554
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:53.940
So Nathan.

555
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.139
Whereas the deep.

556
00:39:55.139 --> 00:39:57.239
Resurrection of the Daleks and Terminus.

557
00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:02.159
Life is really grim, isn't it?

558
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:04.679
This is really terrible.

559
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:11.280
I would have to say that I would avoid Resurrection of the Daleks.

560
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.039
And I do stand by...

561
00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:17.039
Look, maybe there was some hyperbole in my. no, there wasn't.

562
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:28.079
I do stand by my opinion that that was my least favourite Doctor Who story to date, and I like it much less even than the racist and pro war ones from the 1960s.

563
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:30.780
It's really terrible.

564
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.659
Terminus is very dull.

565
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:44.519
I don't find it objectionable, but I don't think it has very much going for it apart from Colin Baker's ex-wife, who I think is really fabulous in it.

566
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.159
Clancy of the overflow.

567
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:48.179
Clancy of the overflow.

568
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:48.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

569
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:50.760
So like I'll marry that one.

570
00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:52.019
No, why not?

571
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.480
And so what do I have to snog now?

572
00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:55.199
worries of the deep.

573
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:57.960
You get to have Ingrid Pitt.

574
00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:59.519
Yeah, yeah, or the marker.

575
00:40:59.579 --> 00:41:00.420
Well, both, really.

576
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.599
Tom Adams, do you get to snog too?

577
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:04.619
Yeah, yeah, he's handsome.

578
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:05.219
Nothing wrong with that?

579
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:06.539
Brendan?

580
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:07.079
Oh, dear.

581
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:08.639
Black orchard?

582
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.500
Terminus.

583
00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:12.599
Time flight?

584
00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:13.440
Okay.

585
00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:16.980
Again, I'm changing this to Snorg Mary.

586
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:17.639
Push off a cliff.

587
00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:18.719
I push back.

588
00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:19.739
Say Snogmake Hill.

589
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:21.539
That's a possible...

590
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:22.800
That's the Archer version as well.

591
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:30.480
Because as we see on the Avengers, if you push them clear of the rocks, they survive in All Done with Mirrors, which now has a commentary by Lindthorst.

592
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:33.659
You can see where Brendan and I want to be.

593
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.960
Okay, so yeah, I'm pushing Black Orchid off a cliff.

594
00:41:37.019 --> 00:41:41.699
So that leaves me with Snog and Mary with terminus and what was the other one?

595
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.840
Time flight.

596
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:43.559
Time flight.

597
00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.900
I think I'd have a tete a tete with terminus.

598
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.119
Plenty of good looking boys in that.

599
00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:50.820
Some of them with long hair and big plastic armour, so that's fine.

600
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.039
Some of them with horrific skin diseases.

601
00:41:53.099 --> 00:41:54.480
Yeah, well, yeah.

602
00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:57.480
But they keep your cereal fresh. they're wearing.

603
00:41:57.539 --> 00:42:00.420
So, yeah, I'd snock terminus.

604
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:14.460
I think I'd marry time flight, because as I've said at the time, I love the ideas of time flight and, you know, a good marriage shouldn't just be about looks, it should be about loving the ideas and loving the mind.

605
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:15.539
Captain Stapley.

606
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.099
It should be about loving Captain Stack.

607
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:18.360
Loving Captain Stapling.

608
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:19.500
Of course, Michael Cashman.

609
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:23.039
It is, you know, it is the gayest story of the Davison era.

610
00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:24.840
For sheer volume.

611
00:42:24.900 --> 00:42:26.280
It competes with Peter Winger.

612
00:42:26.579 --> 00:42:29.699
I was going to say, there's a sport for choice.

613
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:38.099
But yeah, I think I would have to marry time flight because, and you know, I'm saying good marriage shouldn't be about, looks, the design on time flight's okay.

614
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:39.300
The Xeraphim look good.

615
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.940
The internal sets often look good.

616
00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:44.699
Conceptually.

617
00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:45.960
In their hen tie suits?

618
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:46.980
The designs are beautiful.

619
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:47.699
Yeah, yeah.

620
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:50.820
Actually, I remember my adolescent mind.

621
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:51.840
So when did these go out?

622
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:53.219
Probably about 1995.

623
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:58.079
So I was 11 or 12, having stirrings, about the Xerophon in their hentai suits.

624
00:42:58.139 --> 00:42:59.880
So, certainly...

625
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:04.199
And, well, the plasma tons.

626
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:06.599
Well, there's always some crap somewhere in some marriage, isn't there?

627
00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:09.000
So, yeah, I think I'd have to marry time plot.

628
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.820
Chancellor Flavia.

629
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.360
Thalia and Beryl Reed.

630
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:18.300
Okay, quick question.

631
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:19.260
Beryl Reed.

632
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:20.579
Or Captain Briggs?

633
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:21.719
Sorry, Captain Briggs.

634
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.340
Yeah, 3 choices.

635
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:24.239
Snark Mary avoid.

636
00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:26.280
And the other 2 were...

637
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.260
So, Thalia is Elspeth Gray.

638
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:30.900
And Flavia is Dinah Sheridan.

639
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.420
Sheridan. and Captain Briggs is...

640
00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:34.619
I'm totally sport for choice.

641
00:43:34.739 --> 00:43:37.920
We could move to San Francisco and have a quadruped, couldn't we?

642
00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:43.500
whatever, the quadraine of, I know, it's quick.

643
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:58.139
Diana Sheridan, I worship forever because she was in the 1950 Blair film Genevieve with John Griggson, who is intensely handsome and Kenneth Moore, and it was about the London to Brighton car race, and there are police boxes in it, and she is just delicious.

644
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:03.179
Um, and then Larry Adler did the score and it's one of my all-time favourite British films.

645
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:12.239
And, of course, Elspick Gray was the 2nd season Penelope Keith mother in Cat Weasel and it's delicious with Arrow and Moray Watson.

646
00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:14.400
The steed we never had.

647
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:22.679
And then, of course, there's Beryl Reed, who his career really struck, um, got going doing Joe Orton plays in entertaining Mr. Sloan.

648
00:44:22.739 --> 00:44:25.199
She was Kathy back in the early 60s.

649
00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:32.219
She done other stuff, but she really started doing kind of the girly Kenneth Williams, really, but not in carry-ons.

650
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:33.539
She never did carry on, did she?

651
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.280
Oh, how do I marry?

652
00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:41.699
I think it's got to be Elspott Grey just because she makes such lovely finger sandwiches in Cat Weasel.

653
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.360
And um, Dinah Sheridan, um, Flavia.

654
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:49.559
I'd probably, um, I don't want to avoid her.

655
00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:52.139
I might avoid her just because I've already spoiled for choice.

656
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.059
So you definitely have to snog Beryl Reed.

657
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:54.719
Hooray.

658
00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:55.980
You have to, wouldn't you?

659
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.559
I think that might be the 1st time you've actually answered that question.

660
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:01.860
Yeah, yeah.

661
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:03.480
Well, I mean, I take these things very seriously.

662
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:07.019
High crumpet value.

663
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:12.000
Okay, in terms of the regulars in the series.

664
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:15.360
I mean, maybe this is an obvious question.

665
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.119
What's sort of a double-barrel question.

666
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:24.840
Who, perhaps, is wasted the most in terms of the recognising, as in drunk, is the most drunk?

667
00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:30.599
But who do you really, besides Pete, who do you really give kudos to?

668
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:37.500
I'd be surprised if my answer was different from anyone else's, but I think Sarah Sutton is wasted?

669
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.619
They stick her in a cupboard in most of her stories.

670
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:41.760
They really do.

671
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:42.599
Yeah, they do.

672
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:47.760
And I think Janet Fielding, as Tegan is absolutely spectacular.

673
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:50.820
She's really, really brought so much to it, hasn't she?

674
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:54.420
You can really see how she develops, both as an actor and develops the character.

675
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:55.980
Yeah, you really can.

676
00:45:56.039 --> 00:46:06.960
And she comes in and she pitches it as sort of kids TV. you know, and then gradually learns that, no, she can actually do proper acting in it and that it still works.

677
00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:10.619
And by the end, she's just terrific.

678
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:21.360
I don't think, you know, you may have heard me say that Resurrection of the Daleks isn't my favourite story, but the best scene in it is that scene at the end and she's really, really good.

679
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:34.260
And remember all that time ago when she wanted into the Tartars to tell us that her name was Tegan Gvanka and compare that to the performance at the end of Resurrection of the Daleks, her last performance.

680
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:43.320
She's really good and she's funny and feisty and like a good model for the female companion.

681
00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:44.940
You know, I just think she's terrific.

682
00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:49.920
I would agree that Sarah Sutton is wasted in the role.

683
00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:53.099
I think in terms of what she's given to do.

684
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:56.400
She's no better or worse than Matthew Waterhouse's Adric.

685
00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:58.619
I think they're given about the same amount to do.

686
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:00.960
Okay, he's not put to sleep for a story, but whatever.

687
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:02.940
It's only been.

688
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:03.599
It had been.

689
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.360
Yeah, that's what we do with dogs when they've got bad here.

690
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:11.219
But I think, um, and I'm, I did have a funny walk.

691
00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:17.820
I'm not wanting to be unkind to Matthew, but I think in terms of the quality of artist.

692
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:21.780
Sarah Sutton is leaps and bounds ahead of him and also leaps.

693
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:22.440
Yeah, yeah.

694
00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:24.900
A lot more experienced when she is given stuff to do.

695
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:31.679
There's sort of a subtlety in her performance and that's why I think she's wasted because I think Matthew gave all that he could to the part.

696
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:34.559
And I think he gives a decent performance.

697
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:45.059
Whereas I don't think Sarah Sutton, with one or 2 exceptions, including Arc of Infinity, I don't think she gets much of an opportunity to give everything she can to the past.

698
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:49.860
She wants to, but she is she's put in a pretty thankless role a lot of the time.

699
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:56.579
In terms of kind of my favourite performance, I agree with everything you've said about Janet.

700
00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:02.099
But my kind of revelation, in terms of the companions on this way through, has actually been Mark Strickson.

701
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:07.440
And it's kind of the other side of the Sarah Sutton thing, Sarah Sutton is constantly locked in a cupboard in things.

702
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:24.719
When Mark Strickson is locked in a cupboard, you're still really curious to know what Turlow's doing because you cut back to him and he's trying to batter a door down or he's crawling through ducting, complaining about how unfit he is, or he's whinging at Preston that, no, we shouldn't save anyone else's lives.

703
00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:25.739
We need to survive.

704
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:34.019
You know, he's always captivating to watch, despite the fact that he's kind of said in later years, you know, I was just locked in a cupboard.

705
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:39.300
But, he doesn't allow that to to limit his performance.

706
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:41.159
Not that I think Sarah Sutton does.

707
00:48:41.219 --> 00:48:48.960
I think possibly all that time looking up Sarah Sutton in the cupboard, they've kind of gone, okay, occasionally we need to come back to the cupboard to see what the character's doing.

708
00:48:49.019 --> 00:49:00.480
And I think Mark Strickson really rises to that, which means when he's out of the cupboard, he's absolutely fascinating to watch because it's like waiting for a champagne cork to pop.

709
00:49:00.539 --> 00:49:03.659
You know there's going to be such energy once he gets out.

710
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:09.480
Like, the awakening is a great example of that, where as soon as he busts out, he doesn't stop running around and...

711
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:11.039
That's just all the gas inside.

712
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:15.719
Well, well, he is ginger. don't have souls, isn't that right?

713
00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:19.860
Well, that's also why the salary was worn because, you know, he's all on the Praxis spectrum.

714
00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:24.239
No, I agree with everything that you said there.

715
00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:28.139
You know, Mark's performance, Janet's performance and...

716
00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:29.280
Carbonated, yes.

717
00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:30.420
How to use to Sarah.

718
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:35.039
I agree with what you said a while back, but actually, I think it was...

719
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:36.119
Yeah, that.

720
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:36.960
Why isn't everyone dead?

721
00:49:37.019 --> 00:49:47.579
No, you said, and I think I quoted you because it was from one of the episodes that you weren't in, that Pete, Janet, and Mark are the best regular cast of the 1980s.

722
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:50.519
In terms of acting ability and what they deliver?

723
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:50.880
Yes.

724
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:51.599
Really?

725
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:55.920
That's going to be quite challenging when we get to Nicola.

726
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:57.960
Well, I just horrific.

727
00:49:58.019 --> 00:50:05.400
I think Nicola is very charming and very nice, but I don't I don't like them anywhere near as much as I like Pete, Mark and Janet.

728
00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:07.320
I'm with you on that.

729
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:16.019
Okay, now in terms of pep stories, are there any stories that you feel are underrated now, generally by fandom?

730
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:30.119
I think in many ways, so many are and so many are overrated, but so many are also under and that we've found new things to both love and and, you know, be despondent over on in all of them, really.

731
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:42.239
I think the lead-ups too, the ones just before the great pearls, the ones that we worship, like Andrew Zani, actually find Planet of Fire has some really terrific subtle direction and performances in it.

732
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:51.780
And there's a lot of dross in it as well, but there's some really lovely moments in it, usually because with the actors in them, you know, elevate their moments in the story.

733
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:57.300
And when you think back to when we were young people and seeing it, they're the moments that have stayed with us.

734
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:05.280
For me, this has been 3 seasons of actors sublimating the scripts rising above and doing more.

735
00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:12.360
And I think that's because Pete was leading them along that path, especially as you were saying earlier, he was the anti-Tom all the time.

736
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:14.940
It was pretty much perfect casting.

737
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.860
I don't know if it was done for the right reasons.

738
00:51:16.980 --> 00:51:18.119
I don't know if Jane.

739
00:51:18.300 --> 00:51:22.079
I think JNT was more intuitive than even he gave himself credit for.

740
00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:30.239
He actually knew what made good entertainment because he's so actively, and if you can say studiously anti-intellectual.

741
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:39.119
He really did despise cleverness, but he also didn't then appreciate that his intuition was a form of intelligence in itself.

742
00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:41.579
And the 2 can work together.

743
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:44.280
But no, Peter was perfect casting, as it turns out.

744
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:52.619
I think if I had to choose one that I think people underrate, it's time blight.

745
00:51:52.679 --> 00:52:03.239
As I said at the time, there's some great concepts in there, I think what lets it down, aside from the production, but I think as Doctor Who fans, we can overlook poor production.

746
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:06.960
I absolutely agree that the ending is underwhelming.

747
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:11.039
It's the doctor and the master exchanging Makano sets, you know, who the hell cares?

748
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:13.500
But the 3 episodes leading up to that.

749
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:20.940
We have time travel, we have psychic abilities, we have a gestolt entity being used as a power source.

750
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:26.460
We have 2 mesmerising performances by Anthony Ainley.

751
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:32.820
Whether they're good or bad is up to you, but Anthony Ali is clearly enjoying himself in this role.

752
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:34.920
The whole cast are clearly enjoying themselves.

753
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:40.739
It was great end of year fun when we saw it as children and I'd love to an alien, that one.

754
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.400
And you know, for the middle 2 episodes, episodes 2 and three.

755
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:55.739
It's quite a strong story for Tegan and Nissa coming together after Adrick's death, and they're the ones who make their way into the inner sanctum, and this is the one who figures out it's a gestolt entity.

756
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:56.699
This is how we help it.

757
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.519
So there's a lot to love in that story.

758
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:03.300
I, you know, I definitely agree it shouldn't be on anyone's top 10 list.

759
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:12.599
But I think just dismissing it because of the production values and because of the ending, you miss a lot of very, very good stuff and some decent acting as well.

760
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:18.300
Because I think Black Orchid, as you say, Todd, is around the point that Janet gets drunk and figures out who a character is.

761
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.840
So that's starting to become solidified here.

762
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:28.679
And when Tegan's horrified or worried about things, she's not being shrieky and shouty anymore in this story.

763
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:39.179
She's being sensible and logical and Anissa gets to be a bit more intuitive and emotional and we get those psychic abilities, which are sadly not touched upon again in the series.

764
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:43.380
So, yeah, I think there's a lot more to time flight than people give it credit for.

765
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.260
Yeah, no, I really agree with you, Richard.

766
00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:48.119
I think Planet of Fire is underrated.

767
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:52.800
But I have to say the 1st story that came to my mind was Snake Dance.

768
00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:54.840
And I know that some people really like...

769
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.719
My favourite shows and real lobster, that's his favourite.

770
00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:00.179
And I would never even consider that to be underrated.

771
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:02.699
I always thought that was at the top of people's list.

772
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:08.820
I always think that people, I don't know, maybe it's the sort of people I hang out with apart from you, lovely gentlemen.

773
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:09.599
People who need people.

774
00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:10.260
People.

775
00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:11.639
Are they the luckiest ones?

776
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:12.900
I don't know.

777
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:13.920
The neediest people.

778
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.820
Yeah.

779
00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:26.940
No, I, you know, the big highlights, the things that everyone raves about are things like earthshock and and Rosani and that kind of thread of Doctor Who, which I've already said, I don't generally like.

780
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:30.420
I mean, I think we talked about Andresani last week and why I think it's good.

781
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:37.500
But snake dance is a kind of a hidden gem, and I think Kinder is more salient in people's memories than snake dances.

782
00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:39.539
Snake dance is the better of the two.

783
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:40.199
I think so too.

784
00:54:40.260 --> 00:54:41.340
But I think Kinder's very good.

785
00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:45.780
Yeah, but snake dance is more confident and has some great performances and great design.

786
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:47.460
Really lovely performances.

787
00:54:47.579 --> 00:54:49.800
Doctor Who fans have this thing.

788
00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:58.139
And I think it's possibly because it's easy to draw direct analogies and lines between different characters and different stories.

789
00:54:58.199 --> 00:54:59.760
Doctor fans have this thing.

790
00:54:59.820 --> 00:55:03.659
You give them 2 elements of the series, like 2 companions or 2 doctors or 2 stories.

791
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:07.079
They have to decide one's better and one's worse.

792
00:55:07.139 --> 00:55:07.860
Yeah, yeah.

793
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:15.300
And I think that's what's happened with kinder and snake dance, even though, in some ways, snake dance is the more cerebral story.

794
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:19.619
I think the visual element of Kinder is what trumps it for most people.

795
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:24.059
Whereas you can look at them and go, they're both amazing pieces of television.

796
00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:27.179
To me, they are completely equal to each other even though they do different things.

797
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:29.219
Interesting.

798
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.780
What do you think is underrated, Todd?

799
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.739
I would stand by Fort Doomsday, which I've always liked.

800
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.000
It is funniness.

801
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:38.280
You can see how he wanted to play the part.

802
00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:43.800
Even though performances are ropey in very early on, which, of course, takes away from it.

803
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:47.099
I've always had a soft spot for Warriors of the team.

804
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:50.099
Not the Silurians and sea devils, but Peter.

805
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:52.079
Peter in that story, but me.

806
00:55:52.139 --> 00:55:55.260
And you mentioned Planet of Fire, which I adore.

807
00:55:55.320 --> 00:56:00.300
And Snake Dance, which, as I said, at the time, I was really surprised by.

808
00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:04.739
And I'll ignore that other one because I just yeah, sorry, Brendan.

809
00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:11.099
So on that note, let's, we usually do a top three, I think.

810
00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:14.940
So put your minds to, if you had to pick three.

811
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:18.239
It doesn't have to be, you don't have to have one, two, three, that can all be equal, right?

812
00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:21.900
Yep, what would you go with for this era of the show?

813
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:23.280
Okay.

814
00:56:23.340 --> 00:56:27.239
I think I would definitely have to pick Enlightenment.

815
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:28.739
Frontios.

816
00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:31.019
Black Orchid, obviously.

817
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:36.900
Black Enlightenment, Frontios, and Kinder.

818
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:42.300
In no particular order, you know, we have one of them's a sci-fi action adventure story.

819
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:51.059
One of them is not an action adventure, but an adventure story with a cerebral and even a romantic arguably element.

820
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:59.760
And one of them is a very cerebral story with, as I've already mentioned, I think Naris Hughes, gives the best guest performance in the series.

821
00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:10.079
I also, I wanted to pick one from each season because even season 20, I think half of it's very good and half of it is pretty dire.

822
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:14.039
So, yeah, those would be my 3 from the Pete era.

823
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:16.440
Enlightenment Frontios Kinder.

824
00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:17.820
Possibly even in that order.

825
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:23.820
Can I pick Andrazani, Frontios, and Snake Dance?

826
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:25.619
Maybe in that order.

827
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:27.719
Is that 2 guns and a frog?

828
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:28.920
Yeah, maybe.

829
00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:30.119
Maybe.

830
00:57:30.179 --> 00:57:34.139
But I do think, as I said before, that home subverts the gum thing.

831
00:57:34.139 --> 00:57:41.460
And just that, you know, Holmes and Harper together and Pete just absolutely make that just an incredible Doctor Who experience.

832
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:46.800
I also want to give special mention to enlightenment and the 5 doctors.

833
00:57:46.980 --> 00:57:50.039
Because they are so nice to come home to.

834
00:57:50.099 --> 00:57:50.940
Yeah, I think so.

835
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:52.800
Yeah, they both bake.

836
00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:57.239
Speaking of Richard, thank you very much for our muffins.

837
00:57:57.300 --> 00:57:58.440
We had muffins.

838
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:00.000
And they were delicious muffins.

839
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:00.719
Thank you so much.

840
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:02.940
Well, speaking of comfort food.

841
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:09.179
Anyway, mine are kinder, snake dance, and episode one of Black Orchid.

842
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:10.980
Yes, fair enough.

843
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:13.500
I think I said that I thought that was the best episode of the season.

844
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:18.480
It's simply because fit-wise, it's where Pete, I'm not saying he's well fit.

845
00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:20.579
It's where he should have been.

846
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:23.280
They were the, they were the kind of parts you should have been playing.

847
00:58:23.340 --> 00:58:24.840
And yes, he's terrific in Andrews.

848
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:26.280
I am not saying they're his best performances.

849
00:58:26.340 --> 00:58:28.320
Actually, I think I agree with Todd.

850
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:31.199
I think Warriors are the deep and Andrazani are his best performance.

851
00:58:31.260 --> 00:58:34.260
But it's how I can see the part it should have been.

852
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:37.920
They should have kept, he works in a bubble universe in warmth and comfort.

853
00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:46.260
And if Saywood and JNT had been sympathetic with each other and watched their own show, actually, and watched how it was developing.

854
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:51.719
They might have been able to, you know, project and massage it into the direction it should have gone.

855
00:58:51.780 --> 00:58:54.239
And then we might we might well have had another 2 years of Peter.

856
00:58:54.360 --> 00:59:01.199
Well, it's really interesting, all these stories that you've mentioned, and this is what I'm going to say.

857
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:03.179
Frontios.

858
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:05.699
Enlightenment.

859
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.800
Snake dance.

860
00:59:07.860 --> 00:59:08.460
Wow.

861
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:09.360
And that's from you.

862
00:59:09.420 --> 00:59:12.000
And which is my least favourite season.

863
00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:12.539
Yeah.

864
00:59:12.539 --> 00:59:12.840
Yeah.

865
00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:13.320
Yeah, yeah.

866
00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:15.360
And honourable mention is the 5 doctors.

867
00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:17.579
So, and that's from season 20.

868
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:25.019
So I've chosen 3 stories from season 20 and that is my least favourite season, which tells me, which tells everybody what I think of the rest of the season.

869
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:27.960
But I also dearly love Planet of Fire.

870
00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:34.440
Yes, and episode one of Black, which is a story that I had previously really did not like at all.

871
00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:36.000
There you go.

872
00:59:36.059 --> 00:59:38.940
And at least, you know, at least in Frontios, 2 people die.

873
00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:40.980
So you know, you're a bit satisfied.

874
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.340
I mean, you know, they're hideously dismembered.

875
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:46.500
Look, you just wait till next season.

876
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:48.900
I'm just going to be there going, this is fantastic.

877
00:59:50.099 --> 00:59:52.559
And nobody else will agree with me.

878
00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:54.659
I can't wait to hear.

879
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:55.980
Oh, dear.

880
00:59:56.099 --> 01:00:05.039
Besides Graham Harper, whom we've singled out last week, is there any other director that you would like to discuss in terms of bringing something to the show?

881
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:17.219
I mean, I would be going with Fiona Cumming, who I think has, I think, done a really competent job in all of her stories and certainly in terms of casting, you know, she's cast really well. and her strengths have shown through.

882
01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:21.179
I know you don't like resurrection, but I actually think the direction of that.

883
01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:23.099
I actually like his post direction.

884
01:00:23.159 --> 01:00:26.639
Matthew Robinson is a good director. and I'll be happy to have him back.

885
01:00:26.699 --> 01:00:30.840
Something happens with Ron Jones, and it only happens once.

886
01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:35.340
Ron Jones, of course, 1st directed timeslight, which I mentioned.

887
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:41.159
I quite like the design work on that, but I don't think it's particularly well directed.

888
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:47.039
He then comes back for Arc of Infinity. which is appallingly directed and appallingly designed.

889
01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:54.360
However, then he comes in and does Frontios, which is amazing, and he'll come back and do 2 Colin stories more on those later.

890
01:00:54.420 --> 01:01:04.019
But Frontios, there is just something that triggers quality from him, which wasn't there before.

891
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:09.360
And I'm pretty sure the designer of Frontios hadn't worked on the show before, so they were new as well.

892
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:15.239
So it's not like the designer came in and was kind of propping him up because the designer knew Doctor Who.

893
01:01:15.300 --> 01:01:26.699
It just seems to be this perfect storm of a great script, really good performances from the regulars, an intriguing villain characterisation of someone trying to flirt their way off a planet with the doctor.

894
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:29.280
And yeah, Ron Jones really rises to that.

895
01:01:29.340 --> 01:01:31.920
So did he bring something to the era?

896
01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:34.139
I'm not certain that he did.

897
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:36.780
Because his 1st 2 stories were lacklustre at best.

898
01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:44.099
But for some reason, he really steps up his game with Frontios, and it's part of the reason it ends up on my list.

899
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:51.960
I think maybe that description of the perfect storm is a good analogy for the Davis and era because when things were right, they were right.

900
01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:56.940
And when they were wrong, Richard.

901
01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:01.380
It's an interesting there weren't enough Sheila's, really.

902
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:07.980
I mean, Barbara Clegg and got together with as a writer and got together with our Fifi and it all worked really, really nicely.

903
01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:10.739
And Mary Ridge had a horrible time on terminus.

904
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:12.000
She did, didn't she?

905
01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:14.519
everybody, but she was really copying some abuse.

906
01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:21.960
I think you can see with the direction just how fraught the time was and that just how tight these things were.

907
01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:24.360
It's extraordinary that they got anything into the can.

908
01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:25.619
You've mentioned everyone.

909
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:27.960
I think Graham Harper just shines, obviously.

910
01:02:28.019 --> 01:02:32.039
But again, my favourite stories are probably there because the direction is so good.

911
01:02:32.099 --> 01:02:35.639
Who directed a Black Auckland, because that's actually really nicely done.

912
01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:37.920
Come to think of it, no, it was Ron Jones.

913
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:38.880
And I was wrong.

914
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:40.320
So Time Flight was your second.

915
01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:43.739
So it looks like like a lot of the BBC directors of the period.

916
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:45.300
He was really good at period drama.

917
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:55.679
We've always finished a question looking forward to the next year of Doctor and the next doctor, and I usually phrase it, you know, what do you hope to discover or what are your feelings going into it?

918
01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:58.619
Any thoughts, comments as we're about to embark on?

919
01:02:58.619 --> 01:03:00.360
Probably the most controversial era of the show.

920
01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:04.019
I think I'm expecting not to enjoy myself.

921
01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:37.139
And I think the reason is largely down to say would, and I think the level of cynicism that he's starting to display is now going to be compounded with his disaffection with the program, his hostility towards the leading man, and the producer, and then eventually the new companion, and I think that there's going to be a giant train wreck and that that train wreck is going to well and truly make it onto screen.

922
01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:49.800
And I also think that we are going to have a Doctor Who is flawed in many ways, not because of Colin Baker, but because of the way he's conceived.

923
01:03:49.860 --> 01:03:57.719
And so I actually don't expect to find a good story in the next era.

924
01:03:57.840 --> 01:03:58.980
Okay.

925
01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:06.300
I'm actually looking forward to having the character model of the doctor with one companion.

926
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:09.840
Again, because it's been a long, long time.

927
01:04:09.900 --> 01:04:13.079
It's been since Leila at the beginning of season 15.

928
01:04:13.380 --> 01:04:17.639
Because ever since then we've had 2 or more companions.

929
01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:21.840
So that is mainly what I'm looking forward to.

930
01:04:21.900 --> 01:04:33.360
My concern is that it will affect the dynamic too much because Tegan and Turlo always had each other to talk to when the doctor was being irritating.

931
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:39.780
And Colin Baker's doctor, I wouldn't describe as irritating from what I remember of him.

932
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:46.679
But certainly he is a big personality, and that can go one of 2 ways.

933
01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:56.820
And I think at the beginning of his era, it's going to go in the wrong direction for the character of Perry, and she's not going to assert herself as well as she has in her 1st 2 stories.

934
01:04:56.820 --> 01:05:02.099
Even in Andrazani, when, as you were saying, Nathan last week, she has a lot of agency robbed from her.

935
01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:08.280
When she is talking to other characters, she doesn't lose any of her determination.

936
01:05:08.340 --> 01:05:13.679
There's that one where the doctor finally comes back to her and she says, hello, doctor, goodbye, doctor.

937
01:05:13.739 --> 01:05:17.699
You know, it's not him saying to her, oh, you're not going to make it.

938
01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:19.260
It's her saying no, I'm not going to make it.

939
01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:23.039
It's a darkly comic moment, but it's still her being in control.

940
01:05:23.099 --> 01:05:32.280
And having already watched the twin dilemma for next week, there are still moments of that, but it's interspersed with some really quite unpleasant stuff.

941
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:38.099
But I think it gets better as the era goes on and they start to get the balance right.

942
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:38.940
That's from memory.

943
01:05:39.059 --> 01:05:44.699
Yeah, I'm looking forward to having one companion back again, but I'm worried that they've forgotten how to do it.

944
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:47.579
Richard.

945
01:05:47.639 --> 01:05:48.300
Golly.

946
01:05:49.860 --> 01:05:58.139
Well, I was mostly losing an ill-chosen pump on the IRF Orion's foggy fields for most of Collins.

947
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:10.860
I stopped watching as a young person and came back when Sylvester was there, so it'll be very interesting to see where we all end up, but I have watched next week's twin dilemma and I watched in a very different way than the rest of you.

948
01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:16.800
I watched it before Andrew Zani, and I watched it in black and white and in reverse, so it had a happy ending.

949
01:06:16.860 --> 01:06:23.159
But no, my opinions are somewhat reinstated like that.

950
01:06:23.219 --> 01:06:29.639
And also because the big finish audios I've listened to for so long and Colin has become someone I really like as the doctors.

951
01:06:29.699 --> 01:06:31.920
So it's going to be an interesting journey.

952
01:06:31.980 --> 01:06:32.460
Yeah.

953
01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:34.079
I look forward to hearing you all.

954
01:06:34.139 --> 01:06:35.579
Tackle it.

955
01:06:36.300 --> 01:06:43.139
I guess for me, because I really disliked Peter as a child and I really loved Colin.

956
01:06:43.199 --> 01:06:47.579
My biggest fear is that I'm going to be far more critical.

957
01:06:47.639 --> 01:07:01.860
I'm going to see a lot more flaws in what's going on and I really don't want that because I just feel that over the years, fandom has, you know, had that opportunity to really just skewer.

958
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:05.159
Yeah, it's too easy to kill just trees to kill.

959
01:07:05.219 --> 01:07:18.300
So I guess going in is that, you know, and I'm sure I will be emitting the flaws, but I'm really going to be looking for what I consider the positives and things that I enjoy so that hopefully some of you out there might be able to see things slightly differently.

960
01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:20.579
It's fascinating, isn't it?

961
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:26.940
Because this is around the time where fans started getting more vocal and complaining about how the show isn't as good as it used to be.

962
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:31.260
And of course, JNT employed the phrase, the memory cheats.

963
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:34.860
Like you, Todd, I didn't like Peter Davidson's doctor of the job.

964
01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:46.619
But I loved Colin's doctor, possibly because, and this is oversimplifying it slightly, but there was more sound and more light and more colour and more of a performance to latch onto and identify with.

965
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:53.219
And in a way, he is quite childlike because he can be erratic and ruled by his emotions.

966
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.699
So perhaps that's why I liked him so much, but am I going to find the same thing?

967
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:02.340
Am I someone who agreed with the idea the memory cheats and I'm going to find, yeah, your memory has cheated.

968
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:05.639
Well, I guess we'll discuss more on that next week.

969
01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:08.760
But here we are at the end of the Davis Nera.

970
01:08:08.820 --> 01:08:14.099
I think, as I've said previously, I really have liked Peter so much more this time round.

971
01:08:14.099 --> 01:08:18.300
And what he has brought to the program, you know, the show has survived.

972
01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:20.100
They didn't think it was going to survive.

973
01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:29.399
Tom, and, you know, his performance leading up to this regeneration this year has really been as good as any of his predecessors.

974
01:08:29.460 --> 01:08:33.060
Would you have liked another season with Nicola and Pete?

975
01:08:33.180 --> 01:08:34.739
Look, that's speculation.

976
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:41.100
I think if he had decided to stay this season would have been different, you know, and there would have been a different energy about it.

977
01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:58.140
So I can't really say one way or another, you know, Mark may have decided to stay on, that might have the way the stories are written, having to have people in and out of stories like would he can have left in the Dalek story, would they have written Perry in the same story as Mark's going, like, you know, all those things would have changed things.

978
01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:02.760
So one way or another, maybe one more story at least, just to have a bit more, but...

979
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:03.420
I would have liked that.

980
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:11.100
But if you look at Doctor Who, if you look at all the regenerations, besides Sarah Jane, everybody else is literally in like a story or 2 before.

981
01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:12.960
And so, I mean, it's a great question.

982
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:18.779
I still feel if he had done one more year, I still think the show would have been axed.

983
01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:19.140
Really?

984
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:19.920
Interesting.

985
01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:27.239
Michael Grade was there and he was ready. and it would have been very easy if he was leaving disabled, don't cast another doctor to speak up.

986
01:09:27.539 --> 01:09:28.199
Yeah, kill them off.

987
01:09:28.260 --> 01:09:30.119
And that's what I really do feel that would have happened.

988
01:09:30.180 --> 01:09:30.779
But again, it's all.

989
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:33.479
Maybe that's why another reason they were Russian Colin in interest.

990
01:09:33.539 --> 01:09:34.140
I don't know.

991
01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:44.699
For me, the main feeling of the Davis and era, and I listeners will know, I hate to sort of look back on things on a negative note.

992
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:45.899
I hate to hate.

993
01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:51.840
But the biggest feeling that for me that comes out of the Davis scenario is one of missed opportunity.

994
01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:54.899
Peter is a brilliant actor.

995
01:09:54.960 --> 01:10:05.039
And I think about half the time he got material that was worthy of him, and I think the same goes for Janet and Mark and Sarah, and even Matthew Walterhouse, who was much maligned.

996
01:10:05.100 --> 01:10:07.859
Yeah, it's just an era of missed opportunity.

997
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:16.380
If the same care had been put into everything as was put into the 1st half of his 1st season and the last half of his last season.

998
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:28.979
And really there's no reason it couldn't have been, then I think this era would be, it's still remembered fondly by many, many people, but I reckon we wouldn't even be discussing, is this a classic?

999
01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:30.119
It just would be a classic.

1000
01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:56.819
So, we bid farewell to Peter Davison until our inevitable time crash podcast in the year 2122.

1001
01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:02.460
Please come back next week as we embark on the Colin Baker era with the twin dilemma.

1002
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:08.760
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter.

1003
01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:11.279
Over on Bondfinger.

1004
01:11:11.340 --> 01:11:23.220
We've recently bid farewell to Sir Roger Moore as James Bond in a View to a Kill, and we have all preceding Bond films, including the unofficial Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again, and really they should have done.

1005
01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:29.520
That's on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes, and Bondfinger on Twitter.

1006
01:11:29.579 --> 01:11:32.819
Until next week, may none of your celery turn purple.

1007
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:34.739
Thank you very much for listening and good night and thank you, Peter.

1008
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:35.640
Good night.

1009
01:11:35.699 --> 01:11:36.539
See you soon.

1010
01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:41.159
I want you to ask...

1011
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:47.039
Oh, Kenneth.

1012
01:11:47.579 --> 01:11:53.279
That was Flight to Entirety, starring Todd Building, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1013
01:11:53.340 --> 01:11:55.439
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1014
01:11:55.500 --> 01:12:00.479
This episode, material that was worthy of him, was recorded on the 28th of December 2016.

1015
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:03.779
The next episode will be released on the 22nd of January.

1016
01:12:05.340 --> 01:12:11.699
Fans of the Peter Davis and era will enjoy his new autobiography, is their life outside the box.

1017
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:15.960
It's a great read, even though inexplicably, it fails to mention us at all.

1018
01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:19.500
Oh gosh.

1019
01:12:20.699 --> 01:12:27.659
Chancellor, Flavia, Chancellor, sorry, Thalia, and the couch guy.

1020
01:12:28.619 --> 01:12:30.300
Do you know that other?

1021
01:12:30.300 --> 01:12:32.760
one of these strange gods they worshipped?

1022
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:35.279
Not another one at all we're talking about.

1023
01:12:36.119 --> 01:12:38.039
Thank you, Kenneth.

1024
01:12:38.100 --> 01:12:39.539
So who's the couch guy?

1025
01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:41.640
Well, we're doing Zorak.

1026
01:12:41.640 --> 01:12:46.800
We're doing Zorak, the one that gets animized that you don't see in the 5 doctors.

1027
01:12:46.859 --> 01:12:48.420
So Flavia...

1028
01:12:48.479 --> 01:12:50.039
But Flavia is Else with Grey.

1029
01:12:50.100 --> 01:12:52.260
So she's mother...

1030
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:53.760
Thalia is also...

1031
01:12:53.819 --> 01:12:54.479
Let me change it.

1032
01:12:54.539 --> 01:13:00.060
I was going to say, can I just say that the prospect of editing all of that is terrifying.

1033
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:01.020
Okay, we start again.

1034
01:13:01.020 --> 01:13:03.180
As long as we keep...

1035
01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:05.100
Oh, no, because the carpet thing was really good.

1036
01:13:05.159 --> 01:13:05.640
Okay.

1037
01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:06.539
Tesla.

1038
01:13:06.539 --> 01:13:07.560
Flavia?

1039
01:13:07.619 --> 01:13:08.579
Yes.

1040
01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:11.340
Thalia and Beryl Reed.

1041
01:13:12.300 --> 01:13:14.340
Okay, quick question.

1042
01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:16.859
Beryl Reed or Captain Briggs.

1043
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:17.760
Sorry, Captain Briggs.

1044
01:13:17.819 --> 01:13:19.260
Yes, read choice.