Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to the Peter Davidson
Retrospective episode of Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor
Who podcast, who knows that something is distinctly wrong, we can
feel it.
I'm Brendan.
I'm Nathan.
I'm Todd, and I'm a heliotrope tinged limp vegetable for this
one.
We're looking back over all things Peter Davidson today.
Over to you, Todd.
Oh, thank you, Brendan.
I'm so prepared for this after my month away.
Okay, so here's my 1st question.
Is Cameleon a companion?
Nathan.
Do you know, I hate the is X a companion question.
Because I just think, like, what does it actually mean?
Rack's a companion.
Well, I think the hat rack's a companion and probably Catarina as
a companion.
Harshly that you didn't even draw breath between those two.
No, because I denied it vigourously, actually, now, you know. did
you?
Well, I just don't think it's a meaningful question.
And I think one of the great things about the new series.
Sorry, Todd.
Thank you.
No, no, I'm not asking any more questions.
It is one of these things that we ask, isn't it?
It is so-and-so her companion.
It is, and it is something that we all buy into his family.
But I think it's like the question of canon.
I mean, it's just it's not a question about the show. about what
the definition of a companion is.
And, you know, is Captain Jack a companion?
Is Adam a companion?
Can I change the question?
Is Chameleon a worthwhile character?
No, terrible.
Although I did really, really like his turn as the murker in
Warriors.
I thought that was tremendous That's what I was going to ask
because I don't think you've answered it for every single story in
season 21.
Who does chameleon play in each of the stories from this past
season?
So in Mories of the Deep.
He's the murker.
He's the merker.
In the Awakening.
I think he's Joseph Willow. and I think that he's he's he's
wanting to to get vasory with Tegan.
Although then again, Joseph Willow does express a desire to put on
the queen of the May outfit.
So, you know, perhaps chameleons in his experimental stage.
I actually think it's Tegan's grandfather because he's actually
did in a ditch.
And so when she comes back to earth, there's going to be some more
questions about Auntie Vanessa and the grandfather.
Yeah, she spends a lot of time in jail, I think, after
resurrection.
And you know, of course, Colin doesn't speak anymore.
He just kind of dribbles like, you know, he hasn't he hasn't
recovered.
Okay, so what comes after Awakening Frontios?
Oh, cockerel?
Because cockerel's pretty rubbish and doesn't serve any purpose in
the plot. perfect for chameleon.
That's not true.
We did actually say at the time that it was the Scottish guy with
the moustache from the village people. one of the one of the
retrogrades.
Okay, I actually think it's actually Tegan, because it's got the
wonky walk and that sort of thing, and she's actually unconscious
underground for most of the episode.
And Todd, as we said in that one, that is because there was a
whole lot cut out where Chameleon was in it and doing that.
Right.
Can I interrupt this answer to bring a piece of disturbing news?
Friend of the podcast, Aaron Finn, pointed something out to me
before our Frontios recording.
I quite forgot, and he asked me why I didn't mention it.
You know how back in the Pertwi era, you could occasionally notice
Joe's Knickers?
Occasionally notice it's full in front camera.
There is a moment at the end of Frontios episode one where you can
see that Janet isn't wearing any.
Stop it.
No.
Is that how it got called?
Was it actually originally called the end of the universe, but
then they just called it Fronty.
Oh, Fronty Oz.
Moving on, who is he in resurrection of the Daleks?
There you go, Aaron.
He's the guy with the metal detector.
Okay, no, seriously.
Sorry, Janet.
Now, at what point in front of your Stuart, does the gentle
listener get to?
To avoid time code will be good.
Okay, just before the TARDUS is destroyed by the meteor, right?
When they're hiding under an awning and they're all crouching.
I think we can say a deft use of shadow, can't we?
Well, he sent me a screen grab.
So she's Sharon Stoning before she...
Yes, that's right.
See how the new listener's new year is going to be going.
This is the Christmas episode we ought to be saying.
I'm very disturbed by that piece of information.
It's more than I ever would have grasped as a child. indeed now
with the woman, like 3 weeks ago.
So moving on.
So much more to talk about this to me, sir.
Moving on in resurrection.
Okay, yeah, bloke with the metal detector.
And he's Howard Foster's pectoral muscles in Planet of Fire.
Well, he's actually the master in planet of fire, isn't he?
already has a thing to do.
And he's Silver Howard as well.
Silver Howard.
We've just glossed over something important.
You had coffee with Janet Fielding 3 weeks ago.
Let's just move on.
We need to hear what's been going on.
I mean, that's why the listener treasures you on these things.
He's still recovering from the whip marks.
She's very lovely.
Question two.
What has been the biggest revelation in terms of watching these 3
years unfold for you?
Oh, look, that youth is kind, and that age with experience brings
cynicism.
I could not get through this season this year.
It took me, as I say, months to watch the Dalek one.
It took me about, even took me 3 weeks to get through Andrew Zani
and I really loved Andrew Zani, but it is still a hard thing to
face.
But it's, I think, look, finally, what I really appreciate in the
last story we just, we just saw is that it wasn't Pete's fault.
For most of it, I was.
And certainly as a child, I thought, oh, he's weird, he's female.
I was really with Colin, you know, presaging the future that, you
know, he was a feat.
I thought, yeah, actually he was.
Vanilla beige, we called him at school.
I think it was a colour in the neighbouring catalogue that young
men should not have known about.
We were ahead of our time.
Yeah, it really wasn't.
He played perfectly.
You can underplay and have a lot of power and Peter has shown
that.
Sorry, Mr. Say word, but you are my puzzling choice, even though
I've defended you in the past.
I think, and J and T, as say would say it, and is really clear
what the scripts were about to get.
So he did, he liked Pip and Jane Baker, and he liked Terence
Dudley, because they did what they were told they were charming
and they, and they were nice to have tea with, and they behaved
themselves.
He was the morgus all the time.
He didn't like writers to be uppity.
And he didn't like Bob Holmes.
Did you know?
We didn't mention this in the last story.
Did you know JNT thoroughly opposed?
The script of Evangrosani, didn't want it made, was hoping that we
would just come up with something else and that twin dilemma
really, really pushing to have more of Colin than he could, as
much as he could get in this season.
So, you know, and Peter was not happy about it the whole time
which is why he's been quite teasy about Colin around the set.
And they got on very well because Peter's lovely and charming. you
know, he said, you're after my job all the time, he would say to
Colin, you know, because Colin was hanging around most of the set
of Andrews Arnie, jumping up and down in the wings, getting
excited because he's a proper fanboy.
But yeah, no, as they would said, he didn't like scripts.
He was there for the costumes.
He was there for, and then for the sets, and then for the photo
opportunities with the celebrities, which may, at the time I
thought was just bitchy.
And we remember Gary Levy, who then Gary Levy changed his name and
was doing Doctor Who, DW, DWB.
But this was a really cantankerous and really political time for
young fans because we really did see it.
You look at it, Brexit, look at Trump.
This is the same attitude we had.
We thought our show was being subverted.
And I've come back to seeing that I think we were right.
My revelation in this, it was kind of a revelation when I watched
it through with Rod a couple of years ago.
And now I'm even more certain of it.
Each time I come back to Peter Davidson, as an adult, I see more
subtlety and nuance in his performance.
And I think perhaps a little unlike John and unlike Tom.
When Peter gets a script he doesn't like, he, in a way, tries to
put in more of his performance to compensate.
If you look at terminus, which I would argue is probably in terms
of script quality, his worst story.
For me, of course, personally, Black Orchid is my worst story.
I've talked about the politics of that before, but terminus in
terms of all sorts of quality is his worst story.
Whenever Peter's on screen, he is interesting to watch.
He gets those action bits where he's trying to save Nissa.
Whereas Tom and John would rise to a brilliant script.
Pete rises to a bad script and kind of goes, I'm going to make
sure this is as good as it can be.
And I think it elevates the people around him.
Interminus with the possible exception of the Garm, which would be
very difficult to make into a good performance.
I don't think anyone gives a bad performance, and I think it's
because Peter is kind of setting the tone.
I actually struggle to pick, you know, 5 bad performances from
this era where I could easily pick them from the per year or the
bakery or even the 60s.
But you could pick them from individual baker stories probably in
some cases.
But here, I think without consciously doing so, and he's never
really said that's what he was doing.
I think Peter doing his best to have faith in the program, even
when he didn't have faith in the program, helps to elevate it.
It would have been a far worse era if when given a bad script, he
just decided not to bother, because I think the people around him
would have not bothered as well.
So that's my revelation each time I come back to Davidson era, I
find more and more to enjoy in Davidson's performance, and as a
child, as you say, Richard, I found him vanilla beige, but now I'm
kind of going, wow, you know, you are thinking about this part.
I may not always necessarily agree with what you're thinking about
this part.
I think he's probably the actor who considered the fact that the
doctor is several centuries old, the least, because all the other
actors have talked about that and Peter never really talks about
it.
He just says, oh, playing the doctor's not an acting part.
But I can see in all of his performances that he's thought about
how an alien would react here.
Do you know, I have to say I have the same answer.
The doctors often, I mean, Peter Davidson's right when he says
it's not an acting part because in the hands of, say, Tom or John
Pertie, it wasn't really an acting part, it was them being
charismatic and compelling to watch.
Like, they're not terrible or anything like that, but they're not
subtle and they're not acting.
And Pete's successor will be along the same lines.
You know, he's a charming person who's often fun to watch, but
it's not a subtle acting performance from him.
Same with Sylvester McCoy.
Do you know what it means?
Sylvester McCoy is a character actor.
He's charming, he's fun to watch, but he actually falls down quite
seriously, I think, when trying to convey some emotions.
And Hartnell is a character actor as well.
And I think the 2 best actors to play the doctor in the classic
series are, Pat and Pete.
And there's a lot of similarities in their tone.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, neither of them, like showbows or...
To the medium.
No, no, no, exactly.
I mean, neither of them are constantly going, look at me at the
expense of what's going on.
And Pete's performance is fantastic.
And he gets he gets this reputation for being kind of low-key and
and sweet and bland, but he's actually quite tetchy and
breathless.
He occasionally does the panicky thing that Pat does.
And the running, the thing that he brings to the part, which is
hugely, hugely important from the new series on is he's the 1st
doctor who starts running.
And, you know, his final episode is him just running constantly.
You know, we've covered this in a previous episode where Peter
didn't do his own running, just like Roger Moore.
That's a joke, actually.
It's Roger Moore, do you listener?
In fact, I'd like to see more of Peter Capaldi running because one
of the things that Armanto Yunucci says about Peter Capaldi is
there's nothing funnier that you can put on screen than Peter
Capaldi running and I really want to see more of it.
But I think Pete's extraordinary and really, really
underappreciated.
Right.
Todd, we're all ganging up on you, Todd.
Yes, listeners, they are.
I have a new appreciation for what Peter Davidson has brought to
the park.
I'm not going to say he's extraordinary.
I can't helping myself to say that, but I will say that season 21
the marriage of how the doctor has written in his performance and
the frenetic energy that he brings to the part, knowing that he's
leaving the part.
He works it out.
I can watch him in 21 any day.
He's fantastic.
And I appreciate the energy and little subtle things that he does
in the other 2 seasons.
I just don't like them as much.
So for me, coming from like, quite frankly, the bottom of the
bottom, like, you know, I have a new appreciation for what he
actually does and how he actually saves a lot of things from being
completely dire at times.
So, yeah, so I have a new appreciation for him.
So it's not, I'm not completely disagreeing with you at all, you
know?
All right, so here's here's a Snogmarrier void.
For you all, for you all.
19?
20.
21.
I think this is easy.
It's your turn though.
Well, when they're 21, they've got more conversation. listeners
need to walk out the door.
Okay.
Season 19, season 20, season 21.
Right.
Well, I'll start with the void, and that's going to be season 20.
That's easy.
21, I think I would snog, because 21 is massively emotionally
intense and will literally kill you as soon as look at you.
So I don't think there's a long and happy marriage involved
there.
Whereas season 19 has breadth and it has variety and it has lots
of different personalities competing.
And yeah, so I think I'd have to marry season 19 and if nothing
else, season 19 has Neris.
And yeah, of all the guest characters of the Peter Davidson era.
I think Neres Hughes as Todd.
I think she does you great justice, Todd.
Okay. thank you No, I think it's, even though season 21 is
certainly, I would say, in most respects, in most stories, and at
least 5 out of 7 stories is superior to season 19.
I prefer season 19 overall for its tone and what it does.
So, yeah, I would snog season 21.
I would marry season 19 and I would avoid season 20 like the Lazar
disease.
Nathan, do you know, I don't think there's actually a possible
answer to this question that's not the same as as brand news.
And I would add that season 19 for me is kind of comfort food.
It is a little bit kids TV.
It's a little bit kind of lightweight and inept in places.
It does have a lot of variety.
Janet's still working out what to do.
You know, it eventually sort of finds its feat, but it's before
Saywood takes over and turns the whole thing kind of horrific and
cynical.
And so there is a sweetness to it and an innocence to it.
And those terribly boring scenes where they're just sort of
wandering through the woods of Castra Volver to the sound of that
fabulous music.
Like I have very happy memories of that season.
And I'm sure that that season and I could make a wonderful life
together.
Who's your favourite guest star of the Davidson era?
I have a kind of favourite in the sense that I really like.
Oh, okay, yeah, because that story is really unrelentingly grim.
And because it will go on to have such a horrific effect on the
program, but she is really terrifically fun and funny in it.
But maybe if I was to take it more seriously, and maybe if I'd
thought about it more carefully, I would have come up with someone
else, but the other person who pops into mind is Leslie Dunlop
because I just think she's terrifically good in frontios.
It's a beautiful performance.
Yeah, yeah.
And I mentioned at the time, that scene where she's reminiscing
about Captain Revere, and I think she does a really good job.
And when she comes back later in season 25, She'll be terrifically
good in that as well.
Richard, I guess it just depends on whether you want to date the
Mara, the Ergon, or the Merko. for choice.
Really?
Maybe just take them all out for drinks and see what happens.
Look, I am, believe it or not, probably going to go down a similar
path.
I actually, season 21 is my favourite of the 3 seasons, but I
wouldn't marry it, like I would marry 19 because I think there's
there's some nice stuff in the earlier stories.
I don't particularly like the latter part of the season.
So I would certainly go down that road.
And for reasons that you've all heard before, I don't like season
20 very much at all. hardly anyone gets killed.
That's right.
Although maybe maybe in that case we should change this just for
this one to snog marry push off a cliff so we can actually kill
season 20.
In terms of guest time.
Oh my goodness, I've asked the question, but I'm just trying to
think, who played the old woman in Kingdom?
Mary, Mary, Mary Morris.
You really liked her at the time, I think.
Although I don't particularly...
Although, you know, my thoughts on that story are what it is, and
I don't consider it to be fantastic.
I think her performance in that is amazing.
So she would be, just off of my head, one of the picks for me in
terms of a guest star.
We have had amazing guest stars in the last 3 years.
So we've had Nearest Hughes, Mary Morris.
We had John Carson, of course.
We've had Philip Latham, who's the Barusa in 5 doctors. other fool
in the arc of in...
Leonard Sachs.
We've had Leonard Sachs.
That was him.
You know, we've had Els...
Martin Clune.
Martin Clunes, Elspeth Gray, Michael Goff, you know, in season 21
even though he wasn't very good.
We had Tom Adams, we were meant to have the dear departed Peter
Arn.
But we got William Lucas, who was amazing.
Are we getting more names now?
Do you think we're getting more recommensible people from?
Because that's what JNT wanted.
That's right And do you think that's been a good thing?
Yeah, I think it is.
I mean, people, you know, dis J and T. But, you know, JNT did at
least at the beginning have an eye to what made newsworthy
television.
He understood how what television was, whereas the old crew
understood what drama was and did it more as televised theatre.
And that's where they're coming from.
But no, but he got the bling of TV.
I think definitely that gave it fresh life at the start.
Okay, at the start.
But do you think is your opinion of him as a producer changing
ours, as we've headed through 1920?
done 4 years.
None of them, as we've seen with Russell and we've seen with
Moffat, that, you know, three, 4 years is anyone's limit, is
impetus goes.
It's very hard to stay fresh.
Even with Barry Letts, season 11, when we covered that, was better
than we remembered it, but in a way, I think Barry kind of went
for a final sprint because he knew he was leaving.
Whereas starting with season 21, John Nathan Turner, that was the
1st time he thought that would be his last season.
Weren't they trying to, didn't they ask somebody else to replace
him as producer and actually were looking for somebody and
actually asked, I can't remember the guy's name, but he actually
turned down the job and then John Nathan Turner had to continue on
as producer?
Yeah, and that will become a recurring theme.
Because people just keep turning down their job.
Your circumstances make it better currently because if he leaves
the show is not going to continue, basically.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
In terms of the guest stars.
We haven't had a bad name actor.
I know, hear me out.
Tom Adams is a good actor, but he's really bad in Warriors of the
Deep.
We've had some actors who have come in and I think just not given
a very good performance.
Tom Adams doesn't seem like the kind of actor who would
deliberately throw a performance though, so I don't know what he
was doing, but everyone, you know, people cite Beryl Reed and
Beryl Reed's a great choice.
I know we discussed with Warriors of the Deep.
It's really weird.
The best actors in that are the junior actors who don't have many
credits, whereas the 3 sort of big actors, Ian McCulloch, Tom
Adams and Ingrid Pitt kind of just give really strange
performances.
But I think the other side of having this policy of trying to cast
at least one big name actor per episode, is those big name actors
then go away and they go to the bars where they hang out with
their other activates and when their other activates say, oh, I've
been offered a Doctor Who.
John Carson might lean forward and say, oh, I did it.
It was absolutely wonderful experience.
You know, it's hard work, but, you know, Peter Davidson's
wonderful and I worked with this very nice young chap.
They put him in this horrid skirt, but I'm sure he's going to go
far.
I like to think that when you bring the cast in and treat them
well.
They're going to go talk to their friends about coming in and a
common factor about people who work on Doctor Who in the 80s, guest
stars.
They generally talk about what a positive experience it was, unless
it's a disastrous production, like terminus was with so much time
cancelled and whatnot.
And even then they talk sympathetically about the problems rather
than saying, oh, it was an awful set to work on.
So I think the reason for the star casting, if you like, is
twofold.
One, it gets people watching because, oh, I know Beryl Reed.
I'll watch that, whereas I wouldn't normally watch it.
And it also has the effect of Beryl Reed then goes to talk to John
Carson or goes to talk to Tom Adams.
So when the offered parts, they're like, oh, yes, I heard from
Beryl that this is a good show to work on.
Not implying any of those people actually knew each other, but I'm
sure they did.
So in terms of, like, besides the actors, in terms of, you know, we
look back at, say, the Tom Baker era, and you can think of, like
the zygons or the we're in or monsters that created that stick in
your memory.
Is there any from this era at all?
Well, I mean, the Mar is the one that is often brought up by a lot
of people in terms of a concept or...
And it gets a repeat.
I mean, it gets to come up.
Tereleptils.
Yeah, I'm memorable.
They are memorable and I've gone on about them throughout the
world.
Other than the Daleks and the Cybermen.
Are the Mara the only reincarnated, redesigned, regenerated
monsters we've had in Doctor Who?
That's a very significant snaky substance, isn't it?
We've all gone a bit silent on this.
I mean, is this a problem that there aren't really monsters that
we are remembering or jumping?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Do you know where I'm going with?
We all regretted that there were monsters in this one, apart from
terreleptos, obviously.
Okay, well, you know, when they do do monsters, they bring back
the Silurians and sea devils and basically rewrite them, not as
the same thing and get a racket wrong.
But it's going back into the past, but in terms of new ones
that...
Well, yeah, the Mara.
No, definitely, because of the way it was filmed and because it
was a monster of the id.
This is the 1st series.
Apart from Tom's last season.
Thank you.
CHB, that we actually discovered that the inner universe is as
vast as the outer and that our mind is the undiscovered country
and can be a wondrous and a terrifying place.
I think the Mara is the most interesting kind of alien.
It's not even an alien, is it?
I mean, it's created from the human mind, you know, by those
crystals.
It's an artefact. will do that to you.
Yeah, yeah, don't take drugs, kids.
Stay in school.
I mean, I remember, like, the, the, Washington Warrior Robot is
the only other thing that bombs into my mind. filthy boost.
That, for me, as a kid was something.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
I know, it's just respray.
Yeah, literally.
And isn't it great?
And it is, and it's beautifully shot and all the rest of it.
In his hentai suit.
But is it a problem?
There isn't more.
I think I think it is.
And I think the problem stems from the fact that most of the
monsters introduced in this era, regardless of quality, they're
kind of tied to the circumstances of their story.
Exactly.
They're always 3rd guest, aren't they?
And didn't you say filmed at the end of the day?
They always left it till the...
Yeah, exactly.
So, you know, the Daleks side, I mean, you can take them up.
You can plonk them in a new setting.
You can't really do that with a plasma on.
Or the magma creature.
Is there a big finish audio with the magma creature?
Is there?
It's a box set, yeah.
The magma creature.
The taran would be... actually quite good.
The monoise. sings the whole way through, yeah.
Actually, the monoids are in a burning field. they really are.
I was going to say, speaking of monoids, Eric Seward became
scripted. during this time.
So we're cruel.
Have you seen his interviews?
The hair is a monoid mop.
To be fair, though, we are equal opportunities.
We're not just cruel to Janet or Peter.
We're cruel to Eric Sayler, Janet.
I don't know if we should go there because I think we could spend
half an hour.
On the same...
I think for me, as I said, he's the reason this hasn't worked.
But it's really, it's a conflagration of unfortunate experiences
and JNT is a TV showtime, light entertainment producer.
So in the end, he didn't get Doctor Who.
I remember how venomous he was in an interview we all saw at the
time about the Lala and Tom Casting.
He said, I really despise the nation of clever people being clever
to each other on TV.
There's no room for the casual viewer.
No.
And he was the wrong man for the job in the end.
I'm starting to be of the opinion.
That not only did JNT and Eric Say would not necessarily quite get
what Doctor Who was, which is a very difficult thing to do because
Doctor Who can be so many things.
They each had a very different view of what they thought it was.
And I think if either of them had had someone more sympathetic.
As we see in JNT's 1st season and with his last 3 with Andrew
Carpel.
Yes, with CHP, they're sympathetic in their vision.
Because JNT's main thing was he wanted Doctor Who to look good.
And Christopher Hamilton.
Bit means perspective on that was, if you wanted to look good, you
have to make the scripts as close to reality as possible and then
extrapolate.
And give the kids something science-y to talk about, which, at the
time, I've got to tell you, we love.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
If JNT's central vision of Doctor Who is, it has to look good.
There's nothing particularly wrong with that.
So long as you then have someone strong on story like Christopher
Hamilton bit me was.
Now, he wasn't always 100% successful in season 18, but I think
when we were discussing season 18, we did come to the conclusion
that, you know what?
Probably the worst story, quote unquote, is Megloss, and even then
that's a straightforward action adventure.
You understand what's going on.
You understand what people are doing.
A lot of fun, actually.
Yeah, exactly.
Whereas when Eric Saywood comes in, I'm not really going to
mention Anthony Root here because Anthony Root knew he was on
temporary assignment.
He didn't try to impose any vision, which I think is a very
professional thing to do.
He was a, if you like, a technical script editor, he got he got
the scripts up to scratch, as it were, you know, following the
producer's outline and following the tail end of Bidmead.
When Saywood comes in, Saywood has this vision of making the show
into an action adventure show.
Which isn't bad if you've got the budget to do it.
And the time.
So that's the thing.
To criticise Eric Saywood's vision.
You have to take into account that we don't know whether his
vision would have been right or wrong for the program because he
never had the resources to implement.
Yeah, but as a script editor, you're responsible for the sum of
your parts.
Exactly.
You know, you've got to work within your strictures, like Anthony
Reed did.
Very much so.
Like that bloke in the hentire as the Rest and Warrior robot.
You do.
Both within your constrictions.
Well, I think Samuel's problem is that he was given this job too
early, that the visitation is his 1st piece of television.
He is unable to write convincing dialogue.
Like his dialogue sounds stilted and unrealistic and terribly
awkward, and that's going to become a giant, giant problem
starting next week, you know, and going on for a while, that the
dialogue just doesn't sound like anything a human being would say
and that he has a kind of level of cynicism that doesn't really
fit with the ethos of the program.
And if you read any of his novelisations, that's abundantly clear
they're always kind of horrifically nasty.
And the closest analogue to that, and I think the reason that they
bonded is Bob Holmes, and Bob Holmes, at novelisation of the 2
doctors, is also just horrifically awful.
But what Holmes has that Eric, say, would lax is simply talent
like Holmes is a good writer, uh, and a clever man, and and in
symphaged.
Yeah, he's in sympathy with the ethos of the program.
And he does foreground the doctor in, the doctor doesn't solve the
problem, as we said last week in Caves of Andrazani, but he's, you
know, central to the show.
But Saywood is interested in his hard bitten and cynical kind of
various sorts of people, starting with military people, but
expanding horrifically into sort of other professions and stuff
next year.
Yeah, I just think he lacks talent and he lacks sympathy with the
aims and ethics of the program.
I do wonder if he hadn't been made script editor, if he would have
become more talented, because as he was script editor, John Nathan
Turner, of course, felt very threatened by bringing back any
experienced hands on the show.
That's right.
So he was... because that's what I was going to say.
I think that's why Seyward was given the job.
But I don't think anyone else was not available, but JNT needed to
be in charge.
Yeah.
And I think he found that working with Chris Bidme problematic on
that grounds.
JNT was a fractious personality as we've seen and quite insecure.
But it also means, as we'll talk about more next week in the twin
dilemma, that John Nathan Turner insisted on using writers who are
either generally inexperienced or specifically inexperienced with
Doctor Who.
And that created all sorts of problems for Eric Saywood.
Crisis of Spurious morality as well.
Yes indeed.
You know, Eric doesn't sort of say, I rewrote everything, but he
does single out several scripts, including The Awakening from this
year, where he had to perform massive rewrites to get it into a
workable state in front of the camera.
Curiously enough, I find the ones he's had to perform massive
rewrites on to actually be better than his own original work.
Most work for writers, the more they write.
It's the opposite painting, the more you overwork it, the better
it seems to get.
Well, anyway, for this sort of period, because even overworking
it's still within a very limited time frame, isn't it?
Yeah, I think Eric Saywood faces the same problem as arguably, in
my opinion.
Stephen Moffat has faced in the new series.
In that, the visitation and earth shock, I think, are 2 really
good scripts, possibly his best scripts.
Stephen Moffat, of course, was the golden boy of the Russell T
Davies era.
Like, if you knew there was a Moffatt script coming up.
You knew it was going to be brilliant.
He had 4 hits in 4 years.
And they were all good.
As soon as he has to do really the equivalent of 6 or 8 scripts
work a year, as well as rewrite everyone else's.
Of course, the quality is going to decline.
And I think the same thing happened to Eric Saywood.
Resurrection of the Daleks probably would have been a lot better
if Eric Saywood hadn't have had to rewrite almost from the ground
up the awakening and the twin dilemma.
That's the thing.
I question a lot of his vision for Doctor Who, but I think if he
had been left alone to get on with it a bit more, it might have
been more polished and thus more enjoyable and more considered.
And I think it's interesting some of the points you made.
Like, had he just written for the show, like, one year as a writer
and then perhaps then come in and been nurtured, a bit like, you
know, Bob Holmes was writing, and Terence Dix was the mentor, and
then he came in with Dix and could see all the mechanisms of the
show and then put his vision into practice.
Look how long.
It took Bob Holmes to get his, you know, maybe things would have
been different.
I mean, he certainly struggles, you know, from the moment he
starts until Well, I mean, personally, I think season 21 is a lot
better.
That's me.
I understand.
I think the doctor has written much better as opposed to the
previous year.
Yes, it's it's nastier, but that's part of his vision, his action
adventure, vision.
So he is implementing that sort of thing.
So I think it is a better and stronger season compared to what's
gone before.
But, you know, whether it's the right thing for the program, that's
you know, something that we'll be debating for the next few 100
episodes.
I think Eric Say would sums it up very well.
There's something he says in quite a few of his interviews and
unfortunately a lot of his interviews are him saying, well, blame
John, it worked when it left my desk.
But there's one point he says, which I find intriguing. which is, I
once heard him say, John essentially liked stories with big ideas
but the stories didn't work.
They weren't narrative.
They weren't you...
Yeah, you have a concept.
You need a story to go around it.
I'm just presenting that comment without further comment.
But I think there is a problem there is that John Nathan Turner's
vision and his vision are different competing things.
John doesn't want to employ people that are going to challenge him
in any way.
And I think listeners out there, fans of the show as old as what
most of us are here on the podcast would know all the criticism
that was fired at John Nathan Turner at the time.
Yeah, and I hated that at the time too. and I feel bad piling on.
Do you know what I mean?
And it is nice to be able to look at season 18, season 24, 25, and
26, and see that while those have problems and, you know, varying
quality and whatever, they don't have quite the same problems as
the seasons in the middle do.
And so it can't just be J and T. I think, you know, J and T is
wrecking our program is really was always the wrong approach to
take.
It's a simplistic view.
He is part of the problem.
But he is not fundamentally the whole problem.
I think possibly the reason he became the focal point is because
he was out there doing all the publicity.
He was also very controlling though.
Oh yeah, I'm not saying he didn't make a rod for his own back, but
he then took the rod out and said, hey, everyone, I'm a piñata.
Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.
Whereas...
Whereas, even now, Eric Saywood seems a very calm and a very quiet
person.
That could just be dissembling.
He's had many years to develop that persona.
That's true.
But if you also look at the sort of morning breakfast TV stuff
from the time, if you look at it from Tom's era, it's Tom and
Louise, or it's Tom and Laura, if you look at the stuff from the
Davidson era, it's, it's the regulars. and JNT, and not
necessarily always together, but certainly balance.
Like if Peter's doing a morning show, John will do a morning show
as well.
You don't see Eric Saywood being interviewed.
You didn't see Graham Williams being interviewed on those shows or
Philip Hinchcliffe or Barry Letts.
You know, it was always the stars.
It's like JNT himself becomes a star of the show. think we're
about to see that with the next casting, aren't we?
I'm not accusing Stephen Moffatt of that, of course, not.
You mean that Colin is...
The producer in apotheosis, just like Capaldi is Moffat, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And yeah, I think possibly to an extent David Tennant and Russell
T. Davis.
You know, they both have the same kind of energy to them.
Yeah, interesting.
And of course, David was a longtime collaborator with Russell D
Davis, like Casanova and earlier productions as well.
The thing is, JT sort of sets that standard, which continues into
the new series.
And even with Philip Siegel on the telly movie, hosting the
electronic press kit and taking people around the TARDIS.
So we kind of have JNT to thank for the modern role of the
showrunner.
And I know there are friends of the podcast who listen and enjoy
the Moffat era far more than the Russell T. Davis era, including
my girlfriend, J.R.
Southall, and he and I have appeared on other podcasts, debating
the merits of the Moffat era versus the RTD era.
Which is wonderful.
It's a wonderful thing you can do in fandom.
And I think debating is fine, but as soon as you say 4 years of
failure is all a person's fault.
It's always her I'm not a big fan of the Moffat era, but I'm able
to recognise that he's done some very good things in his time and
the bad things are not always his fault.
They needed a 3rd wheel.
I was just thinking that And then I remember, yeah, Brian Minchin
as well, for the same reason.
As soon as Brian Minchin comes in, the quality goes up and that's
not casting explosions on Caro Scanner...
You can't, yeah, you can't do everything exactly.
Unless you're Julie Gardner, obviously.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You know, if you brought back Julie Gardner, we'd be back up to
10000000 a week.
Isn't Chris Bidme, just looking shining at this point.
Yeah, oh, yeah, history.
Okay, just to break things up a bit.
It's time for Snog, Mary, and avoider, right?
We need to get a bit light here.
So Nathan.
Whereas the deep.
Resurrection of the Daleks and Terminus.
Life is really grim, isn't it?
This is really terrible.
I would have to say that I would avoid Resurrection of the
Daleks.
And I do stand by...
Look, maybe there was some hyperbole in my. no, there wasn't.
I do stand by my opinion that that was my least favourite Doctor
Who story to date, and I like it much less even than the racist
and pro war ones from the 1960s.
It's really terrible.
Terminus is very dull.
I don't find it objectionable, but I don't think it has very much
going for it apart from Colin Baker's ex-wife, who I think is
really fabulous in it.
Clancy of the overflow.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So like I'll marry that one.
No, why not?
And so what do I have to snog now?
worries of the deep.
You get to have Ingrid Pitt.
Yeah, yeah, or the marker.
Well, both, really.
Tom Adams, do you get to snog too?
Yeah, yeah, he's handsome.
Nothing wrong with that?
Brendan?
Oh, dear.
Black orchard?
Terminus.
Time flight?
Okay.
Again, I'm changing this to Snorg Mary.
Push off a cliff.
I push back.
Say Snogmake Hill.
That's a possible...
That's the Archer version as well.
Because as we see on the Avengers, if you push them clear of the
rocks, they survive in All Done with Mirrors, which now has a
commentary by Lindthorst.
You can see where Brendan and I want to be.
Okay, so yeah, I'm pushing Black Orchid off a cliff.
So that leaves me with Snog and Mary with terminus and what was
the other one?
Time flight.
I think I'd have a tete a tete with terminus.
Plenty of good looking boys in that.
Some of them with long hair and big plastic armour, so that's
fine.
Some of them with horrific skin diseases.
Yeah, well, yeah.
But they keep your cereal fresh. they're wearing.
So, yeah, I'd snock terminus.
I think I'd marry time flight, because as I've said at the time, I
love the ideas of time flight and, you know, a good marriage
shouldn't just be about looks, it should be about loving the ideas
and loving the mind.
Captain Stapley.
It should be about loving Captain Stack.
Loving Captain Stapling.
Of course, Michael Cashman.
It is, you know, it is the gayest story of the Davison era.
For sheer volume.
It competes with Peter Winger.
I was going to say, there's a sport for choice.
But yeah, I think I would have to marry time flight because, and
you know, I'm saying good marriage shouldn't be about, looks, the
design on time flight's okay.
The Xeraphim look good.
The internal sets often look good.
Conceptually.
In their hen tie suits?
The designs are beautiful.
Yeah, yeah.
Actually, I remember my adolescent mind.
So when did these go out?
Probably about 1995.
So I was 11 or 12, having stirrings, about the Xerophon in their
hentai suits.
So, certainly...
And, well, the plasma tons.
Well, there's always some crap somewhere in some marriage, isn't
there?
So, yeah, I think I'd have to marry time plot.
Chancellor Flavia.
Thalia and Beryl Reed.
Okay, quick question.
Beryl Reed.
Or Captain Briggs?
Sorry, Captain Briggs.
Yeah, 3 choices.
Snark Mary avoid.
And the other 2 were...
So, Thalia is Elspeth Gray.
And Flavia is Dinah Sheridan.
Sheridan. and Captain Briggs is...
I'm totally sport for choice.
We could move to San Francisco and have a quadruped, couldn't we?
whatever, the quadraine of, I know, it's quick.
Diana Sheridan, I worship forever because she was in the 1950
Blair film Genevieve with John Griggson, who is intensely handsome
and Kenneth Moore, and it was about the London to Brighton car
race, and there are police boxes in it, and she is just
delicious.
Um, and then Larry Adler did the score and it's one of my all-time
favourite British films.
And, of course, Elspick Gray was the 2nd season Penelope Keith
mother in Cat Weasel and it's delicious with Arrow and Moray
Watson.
The steed we never had.
And then, of course, there's Beryl Reed, who his career really
struck, um, got going doing Joe Orton plays in entertaining Mr
Sloan.
She was Kathy back in the early 60s.
She done other stuff, but she really started doing kind of the
girly Kenneth Williams, really, but not in carry-ons.
She never did carry on, did she?
Oh, how do I marry?
I think it's got to be Elspott Grey just because she makes such
lovely finger sandwiches in Cat Weasel.
And um, Dinah Sheridan, um, Flavia.
I'd probably, um, I don't want to avoid her.
I might avoid her just because I've already spoiled for choice.
So you definitely have to snog Beryl Reed.
Hooray.
You have to, wouldn't you?
I think that might be the 1st time you've actually answered that
question.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, I take these things very seriously.
High crumpet value.
Okay, in terms of the regulars in the series.
I mean, maybe this is an obvious question.
What's sort of a double-barrel question.
Who, perhaps, is wasted the most in terms of the recognising, as
in drunk, is the most drunk?
But who do you really, besides Pete, who do you really give kudos
to?
I'd be surprised if my answer was different from anyone else's, but
I think Sarah Sutton is wasted?
They stick her in a cupboard in most of her stories.
They really do.
Yeah, they do.
And I think Janet Fielding, as Tegan is absolutely spectacular.
She's really, really brought so much to it, hasn't she?
You can really see how she develops, both as an actor and develops
the character.
Yeah, you really can.
And she comes in and she pitches it as sort of kids TV. you know
and then gradually learns that, no, she can actually do proper
acting in it and that it still works.
And by the end, she's just terrific.
I don't think, you know, you may have heard me say that
Resurrection of the Daleks isn't my favourite story, but the best
scene in it is that scene at the end and she's really, really
good.
And remember all that time ago when she wanted into the Tartars to
tell us that her name was Tegan Gvanka and compare that to the
performance at the end of Resurrection of the Daleks, her last
performance.
She's really good and she's funny and feisty and like a good model
for the female companion.
You know, I just think she's terrific.
I would agree that Sarah Sutton is wasted in the role.
I think in terms of what she's given to do.
She's no better or worse than Matthew Waterhouse's Adric.
I think they're given about the same amount to do.
Okay, he's not put to sleep for a story, but whatever.
It's only been.
It had been.
Yeah, that's what we do with dogs when they've got bad here.
But I think, um, and I'm, I did have a funny walk.
I'm not wanting to be unkind to Matthew, but I think in terms of
the quality of artist.
Sarah Sutton is leaps and bounds ahead of him and also leaps.
Yeah, yeah.
A lot more experienced when she is given stuff to do.
There's sort of a subtlety in her performance and that's why I
think she's wasted because I think Matthew gave all that he could
to the part.
And I think he gives a decent performance.
Whereas I don't think Sarah Sutton, with one or 2 exceptions
including Arc of Infinity, I don't think she gets much of an
opportunity to give everything she can to the past.
She wants to, but she is she's put in a pretty thankless role a
lot of the time.
In terms of kind of my favourite performance, I agree with
everything you've said about Janet.
But my kind of revelation, in terms of the companions on this way
through, has actually been Mark Strickson.
And it's kind of the other side of the Sarah Sutton thing, Sarah
Sutton is constantly locked in a cupboard in things.
When Mark Strickson is locked in a cupboard, you're still really
curious to know what Turlow's doing because you cut back to him
and he's trying to batter a door down or he's crawling through
ducting, complaining about how unfit he is, or he's whinging at
Preston that, no, we shouldn't save anyone else's lives.
We need to survive.
You know, he's always captivating to watch, despite the fact that
he's kind of said in later years, you know, I was just locked in a
cupboard.
But, he doesn't allow that to to limit his performance.
Not that I think Sarah Sutton does.
I think possibly all that time looking up Sarah Sutton in the
cupboard, they've kind of gone, okay, occasionally we need to come
back to the cupboard to see what the character's doing.
And I think Mark Strickson really rises to that, which means when
he's out of the cupboard, he's absolutely fascinating to watch
because it's like waiting for a champagne cork to pop.
You know there's going to be such energy once he gets out.
Like, the awakening is a great example of that, where as soon as
he busts out, he doesn't stop running around and...
That's just all the gas inside.
Well, well, he is ginger. don't have souls, isn't that right?
Well, that's also why the salary was worn because, you know, he's
all on the Praxis spectrum.
No, I agree with everything that you said there.
You know, Mark's performance, Janet's performance and...
Carbonated, yes.
How to use to Sarah.
I agree with what you said a while back, but actually, I think it
was...
Yeah, that.
Why isn't everyone dead?
No, you said, and I think I quoted you because it was from one of
the episodes that you weren't in, that Pete, Janet, and Mark are
the best regular cast of the 1980s.
In terms of acting ability and what they deliver?
Yes.
Really?
That's going to be quite challenging when we get to Nicola.
Well, I just horrific.
I think Nicola is very charming and very nice, but I don't I don't
like them anywhere near as much as I like Pete, Mark and Janet.
I'm with you on that.
Okay, now in terms of pep stories, are there any stories that you
feel are underrated now, generally by fandom?
I think in many ways, so many are and so many are overrated, but
so many are also under and that we've found new things to both
love and and, you know, be despondent over on in all of them
really.
I think the lead-ups too, the ones just before the great pearls
the ones that we worship, like Andrew Zani, actually find Planet
of Fire has some really terrific subtle direction and performances
in it.
And there's a lot of dross in it as well, but there's some really
lovely moments in it, usually because with the actors in them, you
know, elevate their moments in the story.
And when you think back to when we were young people and seeing it
they're the moments that have stayed with us.
For me, this has been 3 seasons of actors sublimating the scripts
rising above and doing more.
And I think that's because Pete was leading them along that path
especially as you were saying earlier, he was the anti-Tom all the
time.
It was pretty much perfect casting.
I don't know if it was done for the right reasons.
I don't know if Jane.
I think JNT was more intuitive than even he gave himself credit
for.
He actually knew what made good entertainment because he's so
actively, and if you can say studiously anti-intellectual.
He really did despise cleverness, but he also didn't then
appreciate that his intuition was a form of intelligence in
itself.
And the 2 can work together.
But no, Peter was perfect casting, as it turns out.
I think if I had to choose one that I think people underrate, it's
time blight.
As I said at the time, there's some great concepts in there, I
think what lets it down, aside from the production, but I think as
Doctor Who fans, we can overlook poor production.
I absolutely agree that the ending is underwhelming.
It's the doctor and the master exchanging Makano sets, you know
who the hell cares?
But the 3 episodes leading up to that.
We have time travel, we have psychic abilities, we have a gestolt
entity being used as a power source.
We have 2 mesmerising performances by Anthony Ainley.
Whether they're good or bad is up to you, but Anthony Ali is
clearly enjoying himself in this role.
The whole cast are clearly enjoying themselves.
It was great end of year fun when we saw it as children and I'd
love to an alien, that one.
And you know, for the middle 2 episodes, episodes 2 and three.
It's quite a strong story for Tegan and Nissa coming together
after Adrick's death, and they're the ones who make their way into
the inner sanctum, and this is the one who figures out it's a
gestolt entity.
This is how we help it.
So there's a lot to love in that story.
I, you know, I definitely agree it shouldn't be on anyone's top 10
list.
But I think just dismissing it because of the production values
and because of the ending, you miss a lot of very, very good stuff
and some decent acting as well.
Because I think Black Orchid, as you say, Todd, is around the
point that Janet gets drunk and figures out who a character is.
So that's starting to become solidified here.
And when Tegan's horrified or worried about things, she's not
being shrieky and shouty anymore in this story.
She's being sensible and logical and Anissa gets to be a bit more
intuitive and emotional and we get those psychic abilities, which
are sadly not touched upon again in the series.
So, yeah, I think there's a lot more to time flight than people
give it credit for.
Yeah, no, I really agree with you, Richard.
I think Planet of Fire is underrated.
But I have to say the 1st story that came to my mind was Snake
Dance.
And I know that some people really like...
My favourite shows and real lobster, that's his favourite.
And I would never even consider that to be underrated.
I always thought that was at the top of people's list.
I always think that people, I don't know, maybe it's the sort of
people I hang out with apart from you, lovely gentlemen.
People who need people.
People.
Are they the luckiest ones?
I don't know.
The neediest people.
Yeah.
No, I, you know, the big highlights, the things that everyone
raves about are things like earthshock and and Rosani and that
kind of thread of Doctor Who, which I've already said, I don't
generally like.
I mean, I think we talked about Andresani last week and why I
think it's good.
But snake dance is a kind of a hidden gem, and I think Kinder is
more salient in people's memories than snake dances.
Snake dance is the better of the two.
I think so too.
But I think Kinder's very good.
Yeah, but snake dance is more confident and has some great
performances and great design.
Really lovely performances.
Doctor Who fans have this thing.
And I think it's possibly because it's easy to draw direct
analogies and lines between different characters and different
stories.
Doctor fans have this thing.
You give them 2 elements of the series, like 2 companions or 2
doctors or 2 stories.
They have to decide one's better and one's worse.
Yeah, yeah.
And I think that's what's happened with kinder and snake dance
even though, in some ways, snake dance is the more cerebral
story.
I think the visual element of Kinder is what trumps it for most
people.
Whereas you can look at them and go, they're both amazing pieces
of television.
To me, they are completely equal to each other even though they do
different things.
Interesting.
What do you think is underrated, Todd?
I would stand by Fort Doomsday, which I've always liked.
It is funniness.
You can see how he wanted to play the part.
Even though performances are ropey in very early on, which, of
course, takes away from it.
I've always had a soft spot for Warriors of the team.
Not the Silurians and sea devils, but Peter.
Peter in that story, but me.
And you mentioned Planet of Fire, which I adore.
And Snake Dance, which, as I said, at the time, I was really
surprised by.
And I'll ignore that other one because I just yeah, sorry
Brendan.
So on that note, let's, we usually do a top three, I think.
So put your minds to, if you had to pick three.
It doesn't have to be, you don't have to have one, two, three, that
can all be equal, right?
Yep, what would you go with for this era of the show?
Okay.
I think I would definitely have to pick Enlightenment.
Frontios.
Black Orchid, obviously.
Black Enlightenment, Frontios, and Kinder.
In no particular order, you know, we have one of them's a sci-fi
action adventure story.
One of them is not an action adventure, but an adventure story
with a cerebral and even a romantic arguably element.
And one of them is a very cerebral story with, as I've already
mentioned, I think Naris Hughes, gives the best guest performance
in the series.
I also, I wanted to pick one from each season because even season
20, I think half of it's very good and half of it is pretty dire.
So, yeah, those would be my 3 from the Pete era.
Enlightenment Frontios Kinder.
Possibly even in that order.
Can I pick Andrazani, Frontios, and Snake Dance?
Maybe in that order.
Is that 2 guns and a frog?
Yeah, maybe.
Maybe.
But I do think, as I said before, that home subverts the gum
thing.
And just that, you know, Holmes and Harper together and Pete just
absolutely make that just an incredible Doctor Who experience.
I also want to give special mention to enlightenment and the 5
doctors.
Because they are so nice to come home to.
Yeah, I think so.
Yeah, they both bake.
Speaking of Richard, thank you very much for our muffins.
We had muffins.
And they were delicious muffins.
Thank you so much.
Well, speaking of comfort food.
Anyway, mine are kinder, snake dance, and episode one of Black
Orchid.
Yes, fair enough.
I think I said that I thought that was the best episode of the
season.
It's simply because fit-wise, it's where Pete, I'm not saying he's
well fit.
It's where he should have been.
They were the, they were the kind of parts you should have been
playing.
And yes, he's terrific in Andrews.
I am not saying they're his best performances.
Actually, I think I agree with Todd.
I think Warriors are the deep and Andrazani are his best
performance.
But it's how I can see the part it should have been.
They should have kept, he works in a bubble universe in warmth and
comfort.
And if Saywood and JNT had been sympathetic with each other and
watched their own show, actually, and watched how it was
developing.
They might have been able to, you know, project and massage it
into the direction it should have gone.
And then we might we might well have had another 2 years of
Peter.
Well, it's really interesting, all these stories that you've
mentioned, and this is what I'm going to say.
Frontios.
Enlightenment.
Snake dance.
Wow.
And that's from you.
And which is my least favourite season.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And honourable mention is the 5 doctors.
So, and that's from season 20.
So I've chosen 3 stories from season 20 and that is my least
favourite season, which tells me, which tells everybody what I
think of the rest of the season.
But I also dearly love Planet of Fire.
Yes, and episode one of Black, which is a story that I had
previously really did not like at all.
There you go.
And at least, you know, at least in Frontios, 2 people die.
So you know, you're a bit satisfied.
I mean, you know, they're hideously dismembered.
Look, you just wait till next season.
I'm just going to be there going, this is fantastic.
And nobody else will agree with me.
I can't wait to hear.
Oh, dear.
Besides Graham Harper, whom we've singled out last week, is there
any other director that you would like to discuss in terms of
bringing something to the show?
I mean, I would be going with Fiona Cumming, who I think has, I
think, done a really competent job in all of her stories and
certainly in terms of casting, you know, she's cast really well
and her strengths have shown through.
I know you don't like resurrection, but I actually think the
direction of that.
I actually like his post direction.
Matthew Robinson is a good director. and I'll be happy to have him
back.
Something happens with Ron Jones, and it only happens once.
Ron Jones, of course, 1st directed timeslight, which I mentioned.
I quite like the design work on that, but I don't think it's
particularly well directed.
He then comes back for Arc of Infinity. which is appallingly
directed and appallingly designed.
However, then he comes in and does Frontios, which is amazing, and
he'll come back and do 2 Colin stories more on those later.
But Frontios, there is just something that triggers quality from
him, which wasn't there before.
And I'm pretty sure the designer of Frontios hadn't worked on the
show before, so they were new as well.
So it's not like the designer came in and was kind of propping him
up because the designer knew Doctor Who.
It just seems to be this perfect storm of a great script, really
good performances from the regulars, an intriguing villain
characterisation of someone trying to flirt their way off a planet
with the doctor.
And yeah, Ron Jones really rises to that.
So did he bring something to the era?
I'm not certain that he did.
Because his 1st 2 stories were lacklustre at best.
But for some reason, he really steps up his game with Frontios, and
it's part of the reason it ends up on my list.
I think maybe that description of the perfect storm is a good
analogy for the Davis and era because when things were right, they
were right.
And when they were wrong, Richard.
It's an interesting there weren't enough Sheila's, really.
I mean, Barbara Clegg and got together with as a writer and got
together with our Fifi and it all worked really, really nicely.
And Mary Ridge had a horrible time on terminus.
She did, didn't she?
everybody, but she was really copying some abuse.
I think you can see with the direction just how fraught the time
was and that just how tight these things were.
It's extraordinary that they got anything into the can.
You've mentioned everyone.
I think Graham Harper just shines, obviously.
But again, my favourite stories are probably there because the
direction is so good.
Who directed a Black Auckland, because that's actually really
nicely done.
Come to think of it, no, it was Ron Jones.
And I was wrong.
So Time Flight was your second.
So it looks like like a lot of the BBC directors of the period.
He was really good at period drama.
We've always finished a question looking forward to the next year
of Doctor and the next doctor, and I usually phrase it, you know
what do you hope to discover or what are your feelings going into
it?
Any thoughts, comments as we're about to embark on?
Probably the most controversial era of the show.
I think I'm expecting not to enjoy myself.
And I think the reason is largely down to say would, and I think
the level of cynicism that he's starting to display is now going
to be compounded with his disaffection with the program, his
hostility towards the leading man, and the producer, and then
eventually the new companion, and I think that there's going to be
a giant train wreck and that that train wreck is going to well and
truly make it onto screen.
And I also think that we are going to have a Doctor Who is flawed
in many ways, not because of Colin Baker, but because of the way
he's conceived.
And so I actually don't expect to find a good story in the next
era.
Okay.
I'm actually looking forward to having the character model of the
doctor with one companion.
Again, because it's been a long, long time.
It's been since Leila at the beginning of season 15.
Because ever since then we've had 2 or more companions.
So that is mainly what I'm looking forward to.
My concern is that it will affect the dynamic too much because
Tegan and Turlo always had each other to talk to when the doctor
was being irritating.
And Colin Baker's doctor, I wouldn't describe as irritating from
what I remember of him.
But certainly he is a big personality, and that can go one of 2
ways.
And I think at the beginning of his era, it's going to go in the
wrong direction for the character of Perry, and she's not going to
assert herself as well as she has in her 1st 2 stories.
Even in Andrazani, when, as you were saying, Nathan last week, she
has a lot of agency robbed from her.
When she is talking to other characters, she doesn't lose any of
her determination.
There's that one where the doctor finally comes back to her and
she says, hello, doctor, goodbye, doctor.
You know, it's not him saying to her, oh, you're not going to make
it.
It's her saying no, I'm not going to make it.
It's a darkly comic moment, but it's still her being in control.
And having already watched the twin dilemma for next week, there
are still moments of that, but it's interspersed with some really
quite unpleasant stuff.
But I think it gets better as the era goes on and they start to
get the balance right.
That's from memory.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to having one companion back again, but
I'm worried that they've forgotten how to do it.
Richard.
Golly.
Well, I was mostly losing an ill-chosen pump on the IRF Orion's
foggy fields for most of Collins.
I stopped watching as a young person and came back when Sylvester
was there, so it'll be very interesting to see where we all end up
but I have watched next week's twin dilemma and I watched in a
very different way than the rest of you.
I watched it before Andrew Zani, and I watched it in black and
white and in reverse, so it had a happy ending.
But no, my opinions are somewhat reinstated like that.
And also because the big finish audios I've listened to for so
long and Colin has become someone I really like as the doctors.
So it's going to be an interesting journey.
Yeah.
I look forward to hearing you all.
Tackle it.
I guess for me, because I really disliked Peter as a child and I
really loved Colin.
My biggest fear is that I'm going to be far more critical.
I'm going to see a lot more flaws in what's going on and I really
don't want that because I just feel that over the years, fandom
has, you know, had that opportunity to really just skewer.
Yeah, it's too easy to kill just trees to kill.
So I guess going in is that, you know, and I'm sure I will be
emitting the flaws, but I'm really going to be looking for what I
consider the positives and things that I enjoy so that hopefully
some of you out there might be able to see things slightly
differently.
It's fascinating, isn't it?
Because this is around the time where fans started getting more
vocal and complaining about how the show isn't as good as it used
to be.
And of course, JNT employed the phrase, the memory cheats.
Like you, Todd, I didn't like Peter Davidson's doctor of the job.
But I loved Colin's doctor, possibly because, and this is
oversimplifying it slightly, but there was more sound and more
light and more colour and more of a performance to latch onto and
identify with.
And in a way, he is quite childlike because he can be erratic and
ruled by his emotions.
So perhaps that's why I liked him so much, but am I going to find
the same thing?
Am I someone who agreed with the idea the memory cheats and I'm
going to find, yeah, your memory has cheated.
Well, I guess we'll discuss more on that next week.
But here we are at the end of the Davis Nera.
I think, as I've said previously, I really have liked Peter so
much more this time round.
And what he has brought to the program, you know, the show has
survived.
They didn't think it was going to survive.
Tom, and, you know, his performance leading up to this
regeneration this year has really been as good as any of his
predecessors.
Would you have liked another season with Nicola and Pete?
Look, that's speculation.
I think if he had decided to stay this season would have been
different, you know, and there would have been a different energy
about it.
So I can't really say one way or another, you know, Mark may have
decided to stay on, that might have the way the stories are
written, having to have people in and out of stories like would he
can have left in the Dalek story, would they have written Perry in
the same story as Mark's going, like, you know, all those things
would have changed things.
So one way or another, maybe one more story at least, just to have
a bit more, but...
I would have liked that.
But if you look at Doctor Who, if you look at all the
regenerations, besides Sarah Jane, everybody else is literally in
like a story or 2 before.
And so, I mean, it's a great question.
I still feel if he had done one more year, I still think the show
would have been axed.
Really?
Interesting.
Michael Grade was there and he was ready. and it would have been
very easy if he was leaving disabled, don't cast another doctor to
speak up.
Yeah, kill them off.
And that's what I really do feel that would have happened.
But again, it's all.
Maybe that's why another reason they were Russian Colin in
interest.
I don't know.
For me, the main feeling of the Davis and era, and I listeners
will know, I hate to sort of look back on things on a negative
note.
I hate to hate.
But the biggest feeling that for me that comes out of the Davis
scenario is one of missed opportunity.
Peter is a brilliant actor.
And I think about half the time he got material that was worthy of
him, and I think the same goes for Janet and Mark and Sarah, and
even Matthew Walterhouse, who was much maligned.
Yeah, it's just an era of missed opportunity.
If the same care had been put into everything as was put into the
1st half of his 1st season and the last half of his last season.
And really there's no reason it couldn't have been, then I think
this era would be, it's still remembered fondly by many, many
people, but I reckon we wouldn't even be discussing, is this a
classic?
It just would be a classic.
So, we bid farewell to Peter Davison until our inevitable time
crash podcast in the year 2122.
Please come back next week as we embark on the Colin Baker era
with the twin dilemma.
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight
through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on
Twitter.
Over on Bondfinger.
We've recently bid farewell to Sir Roger Moore as James Bond in a
View to a Kill, and we have all preceding Bond films, including
the unofficial Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again, and
really they should have done.
That's on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes, and
Bondfinger on Twitter.
Until next week, may none of your celery turn purple.
Thank you very much for listening and good night and thank you
Peter.
Good night.
See you soon.
I want you to ask...
Oh, Kenneth.
That was Flight to Entirety, starring Todd Building, Nathan
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.
This episode, material that was worthy of him, was recorded on the
28th of December 2016.
The next episode will be released on the 22nd of January.
Fans of the Peter Davis and era will enjoy his new autobiography
is their life outside the box.
It's a great read, even though inexplicably, it fails to mention
us at all.
Oh gosh.
Chancellor, Flavia, Chancellor, sorry, Thalia, and the couch guy.
Do you know that other?
one of these strange gods they worshipped?
Not another one at all we're talking about.
Thank you, Kenneth.
So who's the couch guy?
Well, we're doing Zorak.
We're doing Zorak, the one that gets animized that you don't see
in the 5 doctors.
So Flavia...
But Flavia is Else with Grey.
So she's mother...
Thalia is also...
Let me change it.
I was going to say, can I just say that the prospect of editing
all of that is terrifying.
Okay, we start again.
As long as we keep...
Oh, no, because the carpet thing was really good.
Okay.
Tesla.
Flavia?
Yes.
Thalia and Beryl Reed.
Okay, quick question.
Beryl Reed or Captain Briggs.
Sorry, Captain Briggs.
Yes, read choice.