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This transcript was created on 2026-05-04 at 16:30:05

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Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to the Peter Davidson

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Retrospective episode of Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor

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Who podcast, who knows that something is distinctly wrong, we can

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feel it.

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I'm Brendan.

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I'm Nathan.

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I'm Todd, and I'm a heliotrope tinged limp vegetable for this

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one.

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We're looking back over all things Peter Davidson today.

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Over to you, Todd.

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Oh, thank you, Brendan.

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I'm so prepared for this after my month away.

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Okay, so here's my 1st question.

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Is Cameleon a companion?

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Nathan.

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Do you know, I hate the is X a companion question.

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Because I just think, like, what does it actually mean?

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Rack's a companion.

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Well, I think the hat rack's a companion and probably Catarina as

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a companion.

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Harshly that you didn't even draw breath between those two.

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No, because I denied it vigourously, actually, now, you know. did

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you?

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Well, I just don't think it's a meaningful question.

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And I think one of the great things about the new series.

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Sorry, Todd.

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Thank you.

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No, no, I'm not asking any more questions.

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It is one of these things that we ask, isn't it?

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It is so-and-so her companion.

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It is, and it is something that we all buy into his family.

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But I think it's like the question of canon.

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I mean, it's just it's not a question about the show. about what

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the definition of a companion is.

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And, you know, is Captain Jack a companion?

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Is Adam a companion?

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Can I change the question?

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Is Chameleon a worthwhile character?

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No, terrible.

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Although I did really, really like his turn as the murker in

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Warriors.

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I thought that was tremendous That's what I was going to ask

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because I don't think you've answered it for every single story in

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season 21.

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Who does chameleon play in each of the stories from this past

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season?

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So in Mories of the Deep.

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He's the murker.

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He's the merker.

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In the Awakening.

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I think he's Joseph Willow. and I think that he's he's he's

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wanting to to get vasory with Tegan.

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Although then again, Joseph Willow does express a desire to put on

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the queen of the May outfit.

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So, you know, perhaps chameleons in his experimental stage.

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I actually think it's Tegan's grandfather because he's actually

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did in a ditch.

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And so when she comes back to earth, there's going to be some more

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questions about Auntie Vanessa and the grandfather.

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Yeah, she spends a lot of time in jail, I think, after

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resurrection.

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And you know, of course, Colin doesn't speak anymore.

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He just kind of dribbles like, you know, he hasn't he hasn't

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recovered.

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Okay, so what comes after Awakening Frontios?

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Oh, cockerel?

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Because cockerel's pretty rubbish and doesn't serve any purpose in

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the plot. perfect for chameleon.

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That's not true.

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We did actually say at the time that it was the Scottish guy with

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the moustache from the village people. one of the one of the

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retrogrades.

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Okay, I actually think it's actually Tegan, because it's got the

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wonky walk and that sort of thing, and she's actually unconscious

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underground for most of the episode.

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And Todd, as we said in that one, that is because there was a

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whole lot cut out where Chameleon was in it and doing that.

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Right.

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Can I interrupt this answer to bring a piece of disturbing news?

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Friend of the podcast, Aaron Finn, pointed something out to me

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before our Frontios recording.

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I quite forgot, and he asked me why I didn't mention it.

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You know how back in the Pertwi era, you could occasionally notice

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Joe's Knickers?

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Occasionally notice it's full in front camera.

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There is a moment at the end of Frontios episode one where you can

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see that Janet isn't wearing any.

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Stop it.

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No.

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Is that how it got called?

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Was it actually originally called the end of the universe, but

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then they just called it Fronty.

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Oh, Fronty Oz.

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Moving on, who is he in resurrection of the Daleks?

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There you go, Aaron.

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He's the guy with the metal detector.

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Okay, no, seriously.

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Sorry, Janet.

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Now, at what point in front of your Stuart, does the gentle

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listener get to?

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To avoid time code will be good.

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Okay, just before the TARDUS is destroyed by the meteor, right?

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When they're hiding under an awning and they're all crouching.

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I think we can say a deft use of shadow, can't we?

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Well, he sent me a screen grab.

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So she's Sharon Stoning before she...

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Yes, that's right.

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See how the new listener's new year is going to be going.

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This is the Christmas episode we ought to be saying.

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I'm very disturbed by that piece of information.

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It's more than I ever would have grasped as a child. indeed now

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with the woman, like 3 weeks ago.

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So moving on.

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So much more to talk about this to me, sir.

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Moving on in resurrection.

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Okay, yeah, bloke with the metal detector.

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And he's Howard Foster's pectoral muscles in Planet of Fire.

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Well, he's actually the master in planet of fire, isn't he?

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already has a thing to do.

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And he's Silver Howard as well.

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Silver Howard.

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We've just glossed over something important.

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You had coffee with Janet Fielding 3 weeks ago.

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Let's just move on.

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We need to hear what's been going on.

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I mean, that's why the listener treasures you on these things.

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He's still recovering from the whip marks.

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She's very lovely.

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Question two.

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What has been the biggest revelation in terms of watching these 3

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years unfold for you?

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Oh, look, that youth is kind, and that age with experience brings

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cynicism.

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I could not get through this season this year.

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It took me, as I say, months to watch the Dalek one.

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It took me about, even took me 3 weeks to get through Andrew Zani

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and I really loved Andrew Zani, but it is still a hard thing to

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face.

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But it's, I think, look, finally, what I really appreciate in the

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last story we just, we just saw is that it wasn't Pete's fault.

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For most of it, I was.

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And certainly as a child, I thought, oh, he's weird, he's female.

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I was really with Colin, you know, presaging the future that, you

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know, he was a feat.

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I thought, yeah, actually he was.

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Vanilla beige, we called him at school.

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I think it was a colour in the neighbouring catalogue that young

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men should not have known about.

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We were ahead of our time.

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Yeah, it really wasn't.

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He played perfectly.

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You can underplay and have a lot of power and Peter has shown

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that.

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Sorry, Mr. Say word, but you are my puzzling choice, even though

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I've defended you in the past.

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I think, and J and T, as say would say it, and is really clear

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what the scripts were about to get.

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So he did, he liked Pip and Jane Baker, and he liked Terence

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Dudley, because they did what they were told they were charming

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and they, and they were nice to have tea with, and they behaved

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themselves.

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He was the morgus all the time.

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He didn't like writers to be uppity.

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And he didn't like Bob Holmes.

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Did you know?

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We didn't mention this in the last story.

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Did you know JNT thoroughly opposed?

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The script of Evangrosani, didn't want it made, was hoping that we

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would just come up with something else and that twin dilemma

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really, really pushing to have more of Colin than he could, as

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much as he could get in this season.

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So, you know, and Peter was not happy about it the whole time

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which is why he's been quite teasy about Colin around the set.

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And they got on very well because Peter's lovely and charming. you

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know, he said, you're after my job all the time, he would say to

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Colin, you know, because Colin was hanging around most of the set

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of Andrews Arnie, jumping up and down in the wings, getting

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excited because he's a proper fanboy.

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But yeah, no, as they would said, he didn't like scripts.

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He was there for the costumes.

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He was there for, and then for the sets, and then for the photo

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opportunities with the celebrities, which may, at the time I

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thought was just bitchy.

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And we remember Gary Levy, who then Gary Levy changed his name and

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was doing Doctor Who, DW, DWB.

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But this was a really cantankerous and really political time for

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young fans because we really did see it.

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You look at it, Brexit, look at Trump.

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This is the same attitude we had.

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We thought our show was being subverted.

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And I've come back to seeing that I think we were right.

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My revelation in this, it was kind of a revelation when I watched

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it through with Rod a couple of years ago.

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And now I'm even more certain of it.

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Each time I come back to Peter Davidson, as an adult, I see more

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subtlety and nuance in his performance.

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And I think perhaps a little unlike John and unlike Tom.

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When Peter gets a script he doesn't like, he, in a way, tries to

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put in more of his performance to compensate.

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If you look at terminus, which I would argue is probably in terms

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of script quality, his worst story.

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For me, of course, personally, Black Orchid is my worst story.

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I've talked about the politics of that before, but terminus in

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terms of all sorts of quality is his worst story.

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Whenever Peter's on screen, he is interesting to watch.

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He gets those action bits where he's trying to save Nissa.

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Whereas Tom and John would rise to a brilliant script.

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Pete rises to a bad script and kind of goes, I'm going to make

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sure this is as good as it can be.

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And I think it elevates the people around him.

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Interminus with the possible exception of the Garm, which would be

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very difficult to make into a good performance.

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I don't think anyone gives a bad performance, and I think it's

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because Peter is kind of setting the tone.

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I actually struggle to pick, you know, 5 bad performances from

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this era where I could easily pick them from the per year or the

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bakery or even the 60s.

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But you could pick them from individual baker stories probably in

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some cases.

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But here, I think without consciously doing so, and he's never

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really said that's what he was doing.

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I think Peter doing his best to have faith in the program, even

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when he didn't have faith in the program, helps to elevate it.

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It would have been a far worse era if when given a bad script, he

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just decided not to bother, because I think the people around him

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would have not bothered as well.

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So that's my revelation each time I come back to Davidson era, I

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find more and more to enjoy in Davidson's performance, and as a

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child, as you say, Richard, I found him vanilla beige, but now I'm

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kind of going, wow, you know, you are thinking about this part.

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I may not always necessarily agree with what you're thinking about

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this part.

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I think he's probably the actor who considered the fact that the

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doctor is several centuries old, the least, because all the other

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actors have talked about that and Peter never really talks about

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it.

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He just says, oh, playing the doctor's not an acting part.

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But I can see in all of his performances that he's thought about

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how an alien would react here.

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Do you know, I have to say I have the same answer.

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The doctors often, I mean, Peter Davidson's right when he says

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it's not an acting part because in the hands of, say, Tom or John

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Pertie, it wasn't really an acting part, it was them being

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charismatic and compelling to watch.

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Like, they're not terrible or anything like that, but they're not

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subtle and they're not acting.

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And Pete's successor will be along the same lines.

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You know, he's a charming person who's often fun to watch, but

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00:11:58.980 --> 00:12:00.899
it's not a subtle acting performance from him.

250
00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:02.639
Same with Sylvester McCoy.

251
00:12:02.700 --> 00:12:03.299
Do you know what it means?

252
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:04.980
Sylvester McCoy is a character actor.

253
00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:09.419
He's charming, he's fun to watch, but he actually falls down quite

254
00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:13.500
seriously, I think, when trying to convey some emotions.

255
00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.559
And Hartnell is a character actor as well.

256
00:12:16.620 --> 00:12:20.039
And I think the 2 best actors to play the doctor in the classic

257
00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.799
series are, Pat and Pete.

258
00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:25.200
And there's a lot of similarities in their tone.

259
00:12:25.259 --> 00:12:25.919
Yeah, yeah.

260
00:12:25.980 --> 00:12:31.919
Well, neither of them, like showbows or...

261
00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:32.940
To the medium.

262
00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:33.960
No, no, no, exactly.

263
00:12:34.019 --> 00:12:38.100
I mean, neither of them are constantly going, look at me at the

264
00:12:38.100 --> 00:12:39.360
expense of what's going on.

265
00:12:39.419 --> 00:12:42.360
And Pete's performance is fantastic.

266
00:12:42.419 --> 00:12:48.240
And he gets he gets this reputation for being kind of low-key and

267
00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:53.279
and sweet and bland, but he's actually quite tetchy and

268
00:12:53.279 --> 00:12:53.940
breathless.

269
00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.639
He occasionally does the panicky thing that Pat does.

270
00:12:56.700 --> 00:12:59.759
And the running, the thing that he brings to the part, which is

271
00:12:59.759 --> 00:13:04.019
hugely, hugely important from the new series on is he's the 1st

272
00:13:04.019 --> 00:13:05.340
doctor who starts running.

273
00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.179
And, you know, his final episode is him just running constantly.

274
00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:12.480
You know, we've covered this in a previous episode where Peter

275
00:13:12.480 --> 00:13:15.960
didn't do his own running, just like Roger Moore.

276
00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:17.700
That's a joke, actually.

277
00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:19.139
It's Roger Moore, do you listener?

278
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:22.440
In fact, I'd like to see more of Peter Capaldi running because one

279
00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.379
of the things that Armanto Yunucci says about Peter Capaldi is

280
00:13:25.379 --> 00:13:28.440
there's nothing funnier that you can put on screen than Peter

281
00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.559
Capaldi running and I really want to see more of it.

282
00:13:31.620 --> 00:13:35.639
But I think Pete's extraordinary and really, really

283
00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:36.539
underappreciated.

284
00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:38.460
Right.

285
00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.340
Todd, we're all ganging up on you, Todd.

286
00:13:41.399 --> 00:13:43.259
Yes, listeners, they are.

287
00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:47.820
I have a new appreciation for what Peter Davidson has brought to

288
00:13:47.820 --> 00:13:48.179
the park.

289
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:50.039
I'm not going to say he's extraordinary.

290
00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:54.659
I can't helping myself to say that, but I will say that season 21

291
00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:57.480
the marriage of how the doctor has written in his performance and

292
00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.240
the frenetic energy that he brings to the part, knowing that he's

293
00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:01.019
leaving the part.

294
00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:01.740
He works it out.

295
00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:03.960
I can watch him in 21 any day.

296
00:14:04.019 --> 00:14:05.159
He's fantastic.

297
00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:07.799
And I appreciate the energy and little subtle things that he does

298
00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:08.879
in the other 2 seasons.

299
00:14:08.940 --> 00:14:10.679
I just don't like them as much.

300
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:14.879
So for me, coming from like, quite frankly, the bottom of the

301
00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:17.820
bottom, like, you know, I have a new appreciation for what he

302
00:14:17.820 --> 00:14:22.139
actually does and how he actually saves a lot of things from being

303
00:14:22.139 --> 00:14:24.240
completely dire at times.

304
00:14:24.299 --> 00:14:26.639
So, yeah, so I have a new appreciation for him.

305
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:29.279
So it's not, I'm not completely disagreeing with you at all, you

306
00:14:29.279 --> 00:14:29.519
know?

307
00:14:30.539 --> 00:14:34.320
All right, so here's here's a Snogmarrier void.

308
00:14:34.379 --> 00:14:36.480
For you all, for you all.

309
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:39.059
19?

310
00:14:39.120 --> 00:14:40.259
20.

311
00:14:40.259 --> 00:14:41.519
21.

312
00:14:42.059 --> 00:14:43.860
I think this is easy.

313
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:45.179
It's your turn though.

314
00:14:45.240 --> 00:14:51.179
Well, when they're 21, they've got more conversation. listeners

315
00:14:51.299 --> 00:14:52.679
need to walk out the door.

316
00:14:53.220 --> 00:14:54.659
Okay.

317
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:57.240
Season 19, season 20, season 21.

318
00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:57.960
Right.

319
00:14:58.019 --> 00:15:01.679
Well, I'll start with the void, and that's going to be season 20.

320
00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:02.639
That's easy.

321
00:15:02.700 --> 00:15:07.919
21, I think I would snog, because 21 is massively emotionally

322
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.639
intense and will literally kill you as soon as look at you.

323
00:15:11.700 --> 00:15:14.879
So I don't think there's a long and happy marriage involved

324
00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:15.240
there.

325
00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:23.279
Whereas season 19 has breadth and it has variety and it has lots

326
00:15:23.279 --> 00:15:25.500
of different personalities competing.

327
00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.879
And yeah, so I think I'd have to marry season 19 and if nothing

328
00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.100
else, season 19 has Neris.

329
00:15:32.340 --> 00:15:36.720
And yeah, of all the guest characters of the Peter Davidson era.

330
00:15:36.779 --> 00:15:39.779
I think Neres Hughes as Todd.

331
00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.779
I think she does you great justice, Todd.

332
00:15:42.899 --> 00:15:48.299
Okay. thank you No, I think it's, even though season 21 is

333
00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:52.559
certainly, I would say, in most respects, in most stories, and at

334
00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:55.379
least 5 out of 7 stories is superior to season 19.

335
00:15:55.500 --> 00:16:00.179
I prefer season 19 overall for its tone and what it does.

336
00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.899
So, yeah, I would snog season 21.

337
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.259
I would marry season 19 and I would avoid season 20 like the Lazar

338
00:16:10.259 --> 00:16:10.620
disease.

339
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.879
Nathan, do you know, I don't think there's actually a possible

340
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:18.720
answer to this question that's not the same as as brand news.

341
00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:23.580
And I would add that season 19 for me is kind of comfort food.

342
00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.940
It is a little bit kids TV.

343
00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:31.379
It's a little bit kind of lightweight and inept in places.

344
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:32.700
It does have a lot of variety.

345
00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:34.860
Janet's still working out what to do.

346
00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:38.639
You know, it eventually sort of finds its feat, but it's before

347
00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.299
Saywood takes over and turns the whole thing kind of horrific and

348
00:16:42.299 --> 00:16:42.899
cynical.

349
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.679
And so there is a sweetness to it and an innocence to it.

350
00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:49.679
And those terribly boring scenes where they're just sort of

351
00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.799
wandering through the woods of Castra Volver to the sound of that

352
00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:53.820
fabulous music.

353
00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.639
Like I have very happy memories of that season.

354
00:16:56.700 --> 00:16:59.460
And I'm sure that that season and I could make a wonderful life

355
00:16:59.460 --> 00:16:59.879
together.

356
00:16:59.940 --> 00:17:03.840
Who's your favourite guest star of the Davidson era?

357
00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:07.619
I have a kind of favourite in the sense that I really like.

358
00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:13.799
Oh, okay, yeah, because that story is really unrelentingly grim.

359
00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:17.519
And because it will go on to have such a horrific effect on the

360
00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:23.759
program, but she is really terrifically fun and funny in it.

361
00:17:23.819 --> 00:17:29.099
But maybe if I was to take it more seriously, and maybe if I'd

362
00:17:29.099 --> 00:17:30.720
thought about it more carefully, I would have come up with someone

363
00:17:30.720 --> 00:17:34.380
else, but the other person who pops into mind is Leslie Dunlop

364
00:17:34.380 --> 00:17:37.019
because I just think she's terrifically good in frontios.

365
00:17:37.079 --> 00:17:38.220
It's a beautiful performance.

366
00:17:38.700 --> 00:17:39.180
Yeah, yeah.

367
00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:41.700
And I mentioned at the time, that scene where she's reminiscing

368
00:17:41.700 --> 00:17:44.819
about Captain Revere, and I think she does a really good job.

369
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.900
And when she comes back later in season 25, She'll be terrifically

370
00:17:48.900 --> 00:17:49.619
good in that as well.

371
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.700
Richard, I guess it just depends on whether you want to date the

372
00:17:53.700 --> 00:17:58.559
Mara, the Ergon, or the Merko. for choice.

373
00:17:58.619 --> 00:17:59.220
Really?

374
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.339
Maybe just take them all out for drinks and see what happens.

375
00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:08.460
Look, I am, believe it or not, probably going to go down a similar

376
00:18:08.460 --> 00:18:09.660
path.

377
00:18:09.720 --> 00:18:13.619
I actually, season 21 is my favourite of the 3 seasons, but I

378
00:18:13.619 --> 00:18:16.859
wouldn't marry it, like I would marry 19 because I think there's

379
00:18:16.859 --> 00:18:18.720
there's some nice stuff in the earlier stories.

380
00:18:18.779 --> 00:18:20.759
I don't particularly like the latter part of the season.

381
00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:24.720
So I would certainly go down that road.

382
00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.140
And for reasons that you've all heard before, I don't like season

383
00:18:28.140 --> 00:18:31.319
20 very much at all. hardly anyone gets killed.

384
00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:33.059
That's right.

385
00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:36.720
Although maybe maybe in that case we should change this just for

386
00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:39.900
this one to snog marry push off a cliff so we can actually kill

387
00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:40.559
season 20.

388
00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:43.740
In terms of guest time.

389
00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:46.559
Oh my goodness, I've asked the question, but I'm just trying to

390
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.380
think, who played the old woman in Kingdom?

391
00:18:49.440 --> 00:18:51.660
Mary, Mary, Mary Morris.

392
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.339
You really liked her at the time, I think.

393
00:18:53.400 --> 00:18:56.819
Although I don't particularly...

394
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:01.140
Although, you know, my thoughts on that story are what it is, and

395
00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:03.240
I don't consider it to be fantastic.

396
00:19:03.299 --> 00:19:06.420
I think her performance in that is amazing.

397
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:11.700
So she would be, just off of my head, one of the picks for me in

398
00:19:11.700 --> 00:19:12.539
terms of a guest star.

399
00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:16.440
We have had amazing guest stars in the last 3 years.

400
00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:19.740
So we've had Nearest Hughes, Mary Morris.

401
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:22.019
We had John Carson, of course.

402
00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:28.740
We've had Philip Latham, who's the Barusa in 5 doctors. other fool

403
00:19:28.740 --> 00:19:30.059
in the arc of in...

404
00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:30.599
Leonard Sachs.

405
00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:31.619
We've had Leonard Sachs.

406
00:19:31.680 --> 00:19:33.059
That was him.

407
00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.220
You know, we've had Els...

408
00:19:35.220 --> 00:19:36.059
Martin Clune.

409
00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:42.000
Martin Clunes, Elspeth Gray, Michael Goff, you know, in season 21

410
00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:43.079
even though he wasn't very good.

411
00:19:43.140 --> 00:19:47.400
We had Tom Adams, we were meant to have the dear departed Peter

412
00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:48.000
Arn.

413
00:19:48.059 --> 00:19:50.519
But we got William Lucas, who was amazing.

414
00:19:50.640 --> 00:19:52.740
Are we getting more names now?

415
00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:55.259
Do you think we're getting more recommensible people from?

416
00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:56.579
Because that's what JNT wanted.

417
00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:58.740
That's right And do you think that's been a good thing?

418
00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:00.059
Yeah, I think it is.

419
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:04.920
I mean, people, you know, dis J and T. But, you know, JNT did at

420
00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:08.099
least at the beginning have an eye to what made newsworthy

421
00:20:08.099 --> 00:20:08.460
television.

422
00:20:08.519 --> 00:20:12.240
He understood how what television was, whereas the old crew

423
00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:16.140
understood what drama was and did it more as televised theatre.

424
00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:17.700
And that's where they're coming from.

425
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.319
But no, but he got the bling of TV.

426
00:20:19.380 --> 00:20:22.559
I think definitely that gave it fresh life at the start.

427
00:20:22.619 --> 00:20:23.700
Okay, at the start.

428
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.480
But do you think is your opinion of him as a producer changing

429
00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.640
ours, as we've headed through 1920?

430
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:30.359
done 4 years.

431
00:20:30.420 --> 00:20:33.180
None of them, as we've seen with Russell and we've seen with

432
00:20:33.180 --> 00:20:36.420
Moffat, that, you know, three, 4 years is anyone's limit, is

433
00:20:36.420 --> 00:20:37.859
impetus goes.

434
00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:39.000
It's very hard to stay fresh.

435
00:20:39.059 --> 00:20:42.839
Even with Barry Letts, season 11, when we covered that, was better

436
00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:47.460
than we remembered it, but in a way, I think Barry kind of went

437
00:20:47.460 --> 00:20:50.400
for a final sprint because he knew he was leaving.

438
00:20:51.900 --> 00:20:55.920
Whereas starting with season 21, John Nathan Turner, that was the

439
00:20:55.920 --> 00:20:57.660
1st time he thought that would be his last season.

440
00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:00.660
Weren't they trying to, didn't they ask somebody else to replace

441
00:21:00.660 --> 00:21:03.000
him as producer and actually were looking for somebody and

442
00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:05.880
actually asked, I can't remember the guy's name, but he actually

443
00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:09.420
turned down the job and then John Nathan Turner had to continue on

444
00:21:09.420 --> 00:21:09.960
as producer?

445
00:21:10.019 --> 00:21:12.660
Yeah, and that will become a recurring theme.

446
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:16.559
Because people just keep turning down their job.

447
00:21:16.619 --> 00:21:20.519
Your circumstances make it better currently because if he leaves

448
00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:21.900
the show is not going to continue, basically.

449
00:21:21.960 --> 00:21:22.859
Yeah, exactly.

450
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:23.220
Exactly.

451
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.500
In terms of the guest stars.

452
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:30.359
We haven't had a bad name actor.

453
00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:31.799
I know, hear me out.

454
00:21:31.859 --> 00:21:37.079
Tom Adams is a good actor, but he's really bad in Warriors of the

455
00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:37.440
Deep.

456
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:42.779
We've had some actors who have come in and I think just not given

457
00:21:42.779 --> 00:21:43.680
a very good performance.

458
00:21:43.740 --> 00:21:46.559
Tom Adams doesn't seem like the kind of actor who would

459
00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.200
deliberately throw a performance though, so I don't know what he

460
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.019
was doing, but everyone, you know, people cite Beryl Reed and

461
00:21:52.019 --> 00:21:53.160
Beryl Reed's a great choice.

462
00:21:53.220 --> 00:21:55.619
I know we discussed with Warriors of the Deep.

463
00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:56.279
It's really weird.

464
00:21:56.339 --> 00:21:59.819
The best actors in that are the junior actors who don't have many

465
00:21:59.819 --> 00:22:03.359
credits, whereas the 3 sort of big actors, Ian McCulloch, Tom

466
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:07.079
Adams and Ingrid Pitt kind of just give really strange

467
00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:08.700
performances.

468
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.960
But I think the other side of having this policy of trying to cast

469
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:18.119
at least one big name actor per episode, is those big name actors

470
00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:20.519
then go away and they go to the bars where they hang out with

471
00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:24.180
their other activates and when their other activates say, oh, I've

472
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:24.960
been offered a Doctor Who.

473
00:22:25.019 --> 00:22:27.059
John Carson might lean forward and say, oh, I did it.

474
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:28.559
It was absolutely wonderful experience.

475
00:22:28.619 --> 00:22:32.579
You know, it's hard work, but, you know, Peter Davidson's

476
00:22:32.579 --> 00:22:35.700
wonderful and I worked with this very nice young chap.

477
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:37.619
They put him in this horrid skirt, but I'm sure he's going to go

478
00:22:37.619 --> 00:22:37.859
far.

479
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:42.180
I like to think that when you bring the cast in and treat them

480
00:22:42.180 --> 00:22:43.200
well.

481
00:22:43.259 --> 00:22:47.099
They're going to go talk to their friends about coming in and a

482
00:22:47.099 --> 00:22:50.039
common factor about people who work on Doctor Who in the 80s, guest

483
00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:50.940
stars.

484
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:56.519
They generally talk about what a positive experience it was, unless

485
00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.359
it's a disastrous production, like terminus was with so much time

486
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:01.559
cancelled and whatnot.

487
00:23:01.619 --> 00:23:05.339
And even then they talk sympathetically about the problems rather

488
00:23:05.339 --> 00:23:07.380
than saying, oh, it was an awful set to work on.

489
00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:12.720
So I think the reason for the star casting, if you like, is

490
00:23:12.720 --> 00:23:13.380
twofold.

491
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.740
One, it gets people watching because, oh, I know Beryl Reed.

492
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.140
I'll watch that, whereas I wouldn't normally watch it.

493
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:24.000
And it also has the effect of Beryl Reed then goes to talk to John

494
00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.220
Carson or goes to talk to Tom Adams.

495
00:23:26.279 --> 00:23:28.619
So when the offered parts, they're like, oh, yes, I heard from

496
00:23:28.619 --> 00:23:30.359
Beryl that this is a good show to work on.

497
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:35.819
Not implying any of those people actually knew each other, but I'm

498
00:23:35.819 --> 00:23:36.299
sure they did.

499
00:23:37.019 --> 00:23:41.579
So in terms of, like, besides the actors, in terms of, you know, we

500
00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:44.339
look back at, say, the Tom Baker era, and you can think of, like

501
00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:48.359
the zygons or the we're in or monsters that created that stick in

502
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:48.839
your memory.

503
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:52.380
Is there any from this era at all?

504
00:23:53.579 --> 00:23:57.539
Well, I mean, the Mar is the one that is often brought up by a lot

505
00:23:57.539 --> 00:24:00.240
of people in terms of a concept or...

506
00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:00.960
And it gets a repeat.

507
00:24:01.019 --> 00:24:02.579
I mean, it gets to come up.

508
00:24:02.700 --> 00:24:04.619
Tereleptils.

509
00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:07.440
Yeah, I'm memorable.

510
00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:10.619
They are memorable and I've gone on about them throughout the

511
00:24:10.619 --> 00:24:11.700
world.

512
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:13.500
Other than the Daleks and the Cybermen.

513
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:19.019
Are the Mara the only reincarnated, redesigned, regenerated

514
00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:20.700
monsters we've had in Doctor Who?

515
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.099
That's a very significant snaky substance, isn't it?

516
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:25.079
We've all gone a bit silent on this.

517
00:24:25.140 --> 00:24:29.400
I mean, is this a problem that there aren't really monsters that

518
00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:32.400
we are remembering or jumping?

519
00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:33.480
Do you know what I'm saying?

520
00:24:33.539 --> 00:24:34.259
Do you know where I'm going with?

521
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:37.079
We all regretted that there were monsters in this one, apart from

522
00:24:37.079 --> 00:24:38.039
terreleptos, obviously.

523
00:24:38.099 --> 00:24:40.319
Okay, well, you know, when they do do monsters, they bring back

524
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.380
the Silurians and sea devils and basically rewrite them, not as

525
00:24:43.380 --> 00:24:44.880
the same thing and get a racket wrong.

526
00:24:44.940 --> 00:24:48.420
But it's going back into the past, but in terms of new ones

527
00:24:48.420 --> 00:24:49.380
that...

528
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:50.400
Well, yeah, the Mara.

529
00:24:50.460 --> 00:24:52.619
No, definitely, because of the way it was filmed and because it

530
00:24:52.619 --> 00:24:53.880
was a monster of the id.

531
00:24:53.940 --> 00:24:54.900
This is the 1st series.

532
00:24:55.019 --> 00:24:56.700
Apart from Tom's last season.

533
00:24:56.759 --> 00:24:57.420
Thank you.

534
00:24:57.420 --> 00:25:02.519
CHB, that we actually discovered that the inner universe is as

535
00:25:02.519 --> 00:25:06.660
vast as the outer and that our mind is the undiscovered country

536
00:25:06.660 --> 00:25:09.359
and can be a wondrous and a terrifying place.

537
00:25:09.420 --> 00:25:13.140
I think the Mara is the most interesting kind of alien.

538
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.420
It's not even an alien, is it?

539
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.619
I mean, it's created from the human mind, you know, by those

540
00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:19.980
crystals.

541
00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:22.799
It's an artefact. will do that to you.

542
00:25:22.859 --> 00:25:25.200
Yeah, yeah, don't take drugs, kids.

543
00:25:25.259 --> 00:25:25.920
Stay in school.

544
00:25:25.980 --> 00:25:31.259
I mean, I remember, like, the, the, Washington Warrior Robot is

545
00:25:31.259 --> 00:25:34.380
the only other thing that bombs into my mind. filthy boost.

546
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.339
That, for me, as a kid was something.

547
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:39.000
Oh, wow.

548
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:39.480
Yeah.

549
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.339
I know, it's just respray.

550
00:25:41.400 --> 00:25:42.240
Yeah, literally.

551
00:25:42.299 --> 00:25:43.140
And isn't it great?

552
00:25:43.200 --> 00:25:45.180
And it is, and it's beautifully shot and all the rest of it.

553
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:46.319
In his hentai suit.

554
00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:47.160
But is it a problem?

555
00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:48.299
There isn't more.

556
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:50.039
I think I think it is.

557
00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:53.460
And I think the problem stems from the fact that most of the

558
00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:57.779
monsters introduced in this era, regardless of quality, they're

559
00:25:57.779 --> 00:25:59.700
kind of tied to the circumstances of their story.

560
00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.720
Exactly.

561
00:26:00.779 --> 00:26:02.460
They're always 3rd guest, aren't they?

562
00:26:02.579 --> 00:26:04.259
And didn't you say filmed at the end of the day?

563
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:06.480
They always left it till the...

564
00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:07.259
Yeah, exactly.

565
00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:10.380
So, you know, the Daleks side, I mean, you can take them up.

566
00:26:10.440 --> 00:26:11.640
You can plonk them in a new setting.

567
00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.740
You can't really do that with a plasma on.

568
00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.319
Or the magma creature.

569
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:17.400
Or the magma creature.

570
00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:20.099
Is there a big finish audio with the magma creature?

571
00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:22.259
Is there?

572
00:26:22.259 --> 00:26:23.460
It's a box set, yeah.

573
00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:25.079
The magma creature.

574
00:26:25.140 --> 00:26:27.660
The taran would be... actually quite good.

575
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.240
The monoise. sings the whole way through, yeah.

576
00:26:30.299 --> 00:26:33.299
Actually, the monoids are in a burning field. they really are.

577
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.599
I was going to say, speaking of monoids, Eric Seward became

578
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:40.740
scripted. during this time.

579
00:26:41.819 --> 00:26:42.599
So we're cruel.

580
00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.480
Have you seen his interviews?

581
00:26:45.539 --> 00:26:48.119
The hair is a monoid mop.

582
00:26:48.180 --> 00:26:51.299
To be fair, though, we are equal opportunities.

583
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:53.759
We're not just cruel to Janet or Peter.

584
00:26:53.819 --> 00:26:55.380
We're cruel to Eric Sayler, Janet.

585
00:26:55.440 --> 00:26:57.779
I don't know if we should go there because I think we could spend

586
00:26:57.779 --> 00:26:58.380
half an hour.

587
00:26:59.460 --> 00:27:00.119
On the same...

588
00:27:01.019 --> 00:27:03.420
I think for me, as I said, he's the reason this hasn't worked.

589
00:27:03.480 --> 00:27:07.259
But it's really, it's a conflagration of unfortunate experiences

590
00:27:07.259 --> 00:27:12.119
and JNT is a TV showtime, light entertainment producer.

591
00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:13.740
So in the end, he didn't get Doctor Who.

592
00:27:13.799 --> 00:27:17.579
I remember how venomous he was in an interview we all saw at the

593
00:27:17.579 --> 00:27:20.039
time about the Lala and Tom Casting.

594
00:27:20.099 --> 00:27:24.180
He said, I really despise the nation of clever people being clever

595
00:27:24.180 --> 00:27:25.440
to each other on TV.

596
00:27:25.500 --> 00:27:27.779
There's no room for the casual viewer.

597
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:28.259
No.

598
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.319
And he was the wrong man for the job in the end.

599
00:27:31.380 --> 00:27:33.299
I'm starting to be of the opinion.

600
00:27:33.299 --> 00:27:41.880
That not only did JNT and Eric Say would not necessarily quite get

601
00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.960
what Doctor Who was, which is a very difficult thing to do because

602
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:47.099
Doctor Who can be so many things.

603
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:52.859
They each had a very different view of what they thought it was.

604
00:27:53.339 --> 00:27:58.680
And I think if either of them had had someone more sympathetic.

605
00:27:58.740 --> 00:28:02.160
As we see in JNT's 1st season and with his last 3 with Andrew

606
00:28:02.160 --> 00:28:02.759
Carpel.

607
00:28:02.819 --> 00:28:06.720
Yes, with CHP, they're sympathetic in their vision.

608
00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:09.900
Because JNT's main thing was he wanted Doctor Who to look good.

609
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:12.359
And Christopher Hamilton.

610
00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:15.359
Bit means perspective on that was, if you wanted to look good, you

611
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.380
have to make the scripts as close to reality as possible and then

612
00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:20.039
extrapolate.

613
00:28:20.099 --> 00:28:23.339
And give the kids something science-y to talk about, which, at the

614
00:28:23.339 --> 00:28:24.660
time, I've got to tell you, we love.

615
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:25.680
Yeah, exactly.

616
00:28:25.740 --> 00:28:25.980
Exactly.

617
00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:29.700
If JNT's central vision of Doctor Who is, it has to look good.

618
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:31.259
There's nothing particularly wrong with that.

619
00:28:31.319 --> 00:28:34.740
So long as you then have someone strong on story like Christopher

620
00:28:34.740 --> 00:28:36.180
Hamilton bit me was.

621
00:28:36.180 --> 00:28:40.559
Now, he wasn't always 100% successful in season 18, but I think

622
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:42.960
when we were discussing season 18, we did come to the conclusion

623
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:44.400
that, you know what?

624
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:48.000
Probably the worst story, quote unquote, is Megloss, and even then

625
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:49.559
that's a straightforward action adventure.

626
00:28:49.619 --> 00:28:50.640
You understand what's going on.

627
00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:51.960
You understand what people are doing.

628
00:28:52.019 --> 00:28:52.980
A lot of fun, actually.

629
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.059
Yeah, exactly.

630
00:28:54.119 --> 00:28:58.740
Whereas when Eric Saywood comes in, I'm not really going to

631
00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:01.799
mention Anthony Root here because Anthony Root knew he was on

632
00:29:01.799 --> 00:29:02.759
temporary assignment.

633
00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:06.720
He didn't try to impose any vision, which I think is a very

634
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:07.740
professional thing to do.

635
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.720
He was a, if you like, a technical script editor, he got he got

636
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:16.259
the scripts up to scratch, as it were, you know, following the

637
00:29:16.259 --> 00:29:19.980
producer's outline and following the tail end of Bidmead.

638
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:24.480
When Saywood comes in, Saywood has this vision of making the show

639
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.279
into an action adventure show.

640
00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:30.420
Which isn't bad if you've got the budget to do it.

641
00:29:30.420 --> 00:29:32.160
And the time.

642
00:29:32.220 --> 00:29:33.599
So that's the thing.

643
00:29:33.660 --> 00:29:36.359
To criticise Eric Saywood's vision.

644
00:29:36.420 --> 00:29:40.019
You have to take into account that we don't know whether his

645
00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:43.319
vision would have been right or wrong for the program because he

646
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:44.940
never had the resources to implement.

647
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.940
Yeah, but as a script editor, you're responsible for the sum of

648
00:29:47.940 --> 00:29:48.359
your parts.

649
00:29:48.420 --> 00:29:49.140
Exactly.

650
00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:51.359
You know, you've got to work within your strictures, like Anthony

651
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:52.019
Reed did.

652
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:53.519
Very much so.

653
00:29:53.579 --> 00:29:56.700
Like that bloke in the hentire as the Rest and Warrior robot.

654
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:57.180
You do.

655
00:29:58.019 --> 00:29:58.859
Both within your constrictions.

656
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:03.960
Well, I think Samuel's problem is that he was given this job too

657
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:08.880
early, that the visitation is his 1st piece of television.

658
00:30:08.940 --> 00:30:12.779
He is unable to write convincing dialogue.

659
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:18.599
Like his dialogue sounds stilted and unrealistic and terribly

660
00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:21.420
awkward, and that's going to become a giant, giant problem

661
00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:26.579
starting next week, you know, and going on for a while, that the

662
00:30:26.579 --> 00:30:29.579
dialogue just doesn't sound like anything a human being would say

663
00:30:29.579 --> 00:30:36.960
and that he has a kind of level of cynicism that doesn't really

664
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:40.079
fit with the ethos of the program.

665
00:30:40.140 --> 00:30:45.599
And if you read any of his novelisations, that's abundantly clear

666
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:49.259
they're always kind of horrifically nasty.

667
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:52.619
And the closest analogue to that, and I think the reason that they

668
00:30:52.619 --> 00:30:57.480
bonded is Bob Holmes, and Bob Holmes, at novelisation of the 2

669
00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:00.180
doctors, is also just horrifically awful.

670
00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:05.460
But what Holmes has that Eric, say, would lax is simply talent

671
00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:11.700
like Holmes is a good writer, uh, and a clever man, and and in

672
00:31:11.700 --> 00:31:12.660
symphaged.

673
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:15.900
Yeah, he's in sympathy with the ethos of the program.

674
00:31:15.900 --> 00:31:20.160
And he does foreground the doctor in, the doctor doesn't solve the

675
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.400
problem, as we said last week in Caves of Andrazani, but he's, you

676
00:31:23.400 --> 00:31:25.500
know, central to the show.

677
00:31:25.559 --> 00:31:30.000
But Saywood is interested in his hard bitten and cynical kind of

678
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.140
various sorts of people, starting with military people, but

679
00:31:34.140 --> 00:31:37.200
expanding horrifically into sort of other professions and stuff

680
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:37.680
next year.

681
00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:42.720
Yeah, I just think he lacks talent and he lacks sympathy with the

682
00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:45.059
aims and ethics of the program.

683
00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:51.359
I do wonder if he hadn't been made script editor, if he would have

684
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:55.920
become more talented, because as he was script editor, John Nathan

685
00:31:55.920 --> 00:31:58.259
Turner, of course, felt very threatened by bringing back any

686
00:31:58.259 --> 00:32:00.240
experienced hands on the show.

687
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:01.019
That's right.

688
00:32:01.019 --> 00:32:03.779
So he was... because that's what I was going to say.

689
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:05.279
I think that's why Seyward was given the job.

690
00:32:05.339 --> 00:32:09.900
But I don't think anyone else was not available, but JNT needed to

691
00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:10.740
be in charge.

692
00:32:10.799 --> 00:32:11.700
Yeah.

693
00:32:11.819 --> 00:32:16.920
And I think he found that working with Chris Bidme problematic on

694
00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:17.400
that grounds.

695
00:32:17.460 --> 00:32:22.079
JNT was a fractious personality as we've seen and quite insecure.

696
00:32:22.140 --> 00:32:25.740
But it also means, as we'll talk about more next week in the twin

697
00:32:25.740 --> 00:32:31.259
dilemma, that John Nathan Turner insisted on using writers who are

698
00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:34.200
either generally inexperienced or specifically inexperienced with

699
00:32:34.200 --> 00:32:34.920
Doctor Who.

700
00:32:34.980 --> 00:32:38.519
And that created all sorts of problems for Eric Saywood.

701
00:32:38.519 --> 00:32:40.140
Crisis of Spurious morality as well.

702
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:40.920
Yes indeed.

703
00:32:40.980 --> 00:32:44.160
You know, Eric doesn't sort of say, I rewrote everything, but he

704
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:47.400
does single out several scripts, including The Awakening from this

705
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:52.259
year, where he had to perform massive rewrites to get it into a

706
00:32:52.259 --> 00:32:54.180
workable state in front of the camera.

707
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.920
Curiously enough, I find the ones he's had to perform massive

708
00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:03.000
rewrites on to actually be better than his own original work.

709
00:33:03.059 --> 00:33:06.240
Most work for writers, the more they write.

710
00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:08.759
It's the opposite painting, the more you overwork it, the better

711
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:09.720
it seems to get.

712
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:12.539
Well, anyway, for this sort of period, because even overworking

713
00:33:12.539 --> 00:33:14.519
it's still within a very limited time frame, isn't it?

714
00:33:14.579 --> 00:33:19.559
Yeah, I think Eric Saywood faces the same problem as arguably, in

715
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:20.160
my opinion.

716
00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:22.559
Stephen Moffat has faced in the new series.

717
00:33:22.619 --> 00:33:26.940
In that, the visitation and earth shock, I think, are 2 really

718
00:33:26.940 --> 00:33:28.920
good scripts, possibly his best scripts.

719
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:33.000
Stephen Moffat, of course, was the golden boy of the Russell T

720
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:33.720
Davies era.

721
00:33:33.779 --> 00:33:35.700
Like, if you knew there was a Moffatt script coming up.

722
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:36.779
You knew it was going to be brilliant.

723
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:37.980
He had 4 hits in 4 years.

724
00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:39.240
And they were all good.

725
00:33:39.299 --> 00:33:44.460
As soon as he has to do really the equivalent of 6 or 8 scripts

726
00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:46.740
work a year, as well as rewrite everyone else's.

727
00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:48.720
Of course, the quality is going to decline.

728
00:33:48.779 --> 00:33:51.420
And I think the same thing happened to Eric Saywood.

729
00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:53.640
Resurrection of the Daleks probably would have been a lot better

730
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.339
if Eric Saywood hadn't have had to rewrite almost from the ground

731
00:33:56.339 --> 00:33:58.259
up the awakening and the twin dilemma.

732
00:33:58.319 --> 00:33:59.940
That's the thing.

733
00:34:00.059 --> 00:34:03.539
I question a lot of his vision for Doctor Who, but I think if he

734
00:34:03.539 --> 00:34:06.480
had been left alone to get on with it a bit more, it might have

735
00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:09.179
been more polished and thus more enjoyable and more considered.

736
00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:11.400
And I think it's interesting some of the points you made.

737
00:34:11.460 --> 00:34:14.579
Like, had he just written for the show, like, one year as a writer

738
00:34:14.579 --> 00:34:18.059
and then perhaps then come in and been nurtured, a bit like, you

739
00:34:18.059 --> 00:34:22.260
know, Bob Holmes was writing, and Terence Dix was the mentor, and

740
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:26.579
then he came in with Dix and could see all the mechanisms of the

741
00:34:26.579 --> 00:34:27.840
show and then put his vision into practice.

742
00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:28.920
Look how long.

743
00:34:29.099 --> 00:34:32.940
It took Bob Holmes to get his, you know, maybe things would have

744
00:34:32.940 --> 00:34:33.480
been different.

745
00:34:33.539 --> 00:34:37.139
I mean, he certainly struggles, you know, from the moment he

746
00:34:37.139 --> 00:34:41.219
starts until Well, I mean, personally, I think season 21 is a lot

747
00:34:41.219 --> 00:34:41.639
better.

748
00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:42.300
That's me.

749
00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:44.219
I understand.

750
00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.159
I think the doctor has written much better as opposed to the

751
00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:49.019
previous year.

752
00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.260
Yes, it's it's nastier, but that's part of his vision, his action

753
00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:53.280
adventure, vision.

754
00:34:53.340 --> 00:34:54.960
So he is implementing that sort of thing.

755
00:34:55.019 --> 00:34:58.559
So I think it is a better and stronger season compared to what's

756
00:34:58.559 --> 00:34:59.519
gone before.

757
00:34:59.579 --> 00:35:03.179
But, you know, whether it's the right thing for the program, that's

758
00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:07.619
you know, something that we'll be debating for the next few 100

759
00:35:07.619 --> 00:35:08.460
episodes.

760
00:35:08.639 --> 00:35:11.460
I think Eric Say would sums it up very well.

761
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:14.159
There's something he says in quite a few of his interviews and

762
00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:16.739
unfortunately a lot of his interviews are him saying, well, blame

763
00:35:16.739 --> 00:35:18.239
John, it worked when it left my desk.

764
00:35:18.300 --> 00:35:24.840
But there's one point he says, which I find intriguing. which is, I

765
00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:28.619
once heard him say, John essentially liked stories with big ideas

766
00:35:28.619 --> 00:35:31.980
but the stories didn't work.

767
00:35:32.039 --> 00:35:32.880
They weren't narrative.

768
00:35:32.940 --> 00:35:35.340
They weren't you...

769
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:36.420
Yeah, you have a concept.

770
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.860
You need a story to go around it.

771
00:35:37.920 --> 00:35:41.159
I'm just presenting that comment without further comment.

772
00:35:41.219 --> 00:35:45.840
But I think there is a problem there is that John Nathan Turner's

773
00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.599
vision and his vision are different competing things.

774
00:35:48.659 --> 00:35:51.960
John doesn't want to employ people that are going to challenge him

775
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:52.500
in any way.

776
00:35:52.559 --> 00:35:59.159
And I think listeners out there, fans of the show as old as what

777
00:35:59.159 --> 00:36:02.340
most of us are here on the podcast would know all the criticism

778
00:36:02.340 --> 00:36:05.039
that was fired at John Nathan Turner at the time.

779
00:36:05.099 --> 00:36:09.659
Yeah, and I hated that at the time too. and I feel bad piling on.

780
00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:10.320
Do you know what I mean?

781
00:36:10.380 --> 00:36:15.119
And it is nice to be able to look at season 18, season 24, 25, and

782
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:19.739
26, and see that while those have problems and, you know, varying

783
00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:22.800
quality and whatever, they don't have quite the same problems as

784
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.179
the seasons in the middle do.

785
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:29.039
And so it can't just be J and T. I think, you know, J and T is

786
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:32.699
wrecking our program is really was always the wrong approach to

787
00:36:32.699 --> 00:36:32.880
take.

788
00:36:32.940 --> 00:36:33.719
It's a simplistic view.

789
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:34.500
He is part of the problem.

790
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.860
But he is not fundamentally the whole problem.

791
00:36:37.920 --> 00:36:42.840
I think possibly the reason he became the focal point is because

792
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:44.579
he was out there doing all the publicity.

793
00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:46.440
He was also very controlling though.

794
00:36:46.500 --> 00:36:50.340
Oh yeah, I'm not saying he didn't make a rod for his own back, but

795
00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:54.000
he then took the rod out and said, hey, everyone, I'm a piñata.

796
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:56.940
Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough.

797
00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:00.539
Whereas...

798
00:37:00.659 --> 00:37:07.980
Whereas, even now, Eric Saywood seems a very calm and a very quiet

799
00:37:07.980 --> 00:37:09.659
person.

800
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:11.519
That could just be dissembling.

801
00:37:11.579 --> 00:37:13.860
He's had many years to develop that persona.

802
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:14.579
That's true.

803
00:37:14.639 --> 00:37:17.880
But if you also look at the sort of morning breakfast TV stuff

804
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:20.699
from the time, if you look at it from Tom's era, it's Tom and

805
00:37:20.699 --> 00:37:27.059
Louise, or it's Tom and Laura, if you look at the stuff from the

806
00:37:27.059 --> 00:37:32.940
Davidson era, it's, it's the regulars. and JNT, and not

807
00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:35.340
necessarily always together, but certainly balance.

808
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.400
Like if Peter's doing a morning show, John will do a morning show

809
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:38.760
as well.

810
00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.980
You don't see Eric Saywood being interviewed.

811
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:43.679
You didn't see Graham Williams being interviewed on those shows or

812
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.199
Philip Hinchcliffe or Barry Letts.

813
00:37:46.260 --> 00:37:48.179
You know, it was always the stars.

814
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:53.579
It's like JNT himself becomes a star of the show. think we're

815
00:37:53.579 --> 00:37:55.559
about to see that with the next casting, aren't we?

816
00:37:55.619 --> 00:37:59.039
I'm not accusing Stephen Moffatt of that, of course, not.

817
00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.860
You mean that Colin is...

818
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.639
The producer in apotheosis, just like Capaldi is Moffat, yeah.

819
00:38:05.699 --> 00:38:06.360
Yeah, yeah.

820
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:11.460
And yeah, I think possibly to an extent David Tennant and Russell

821
00:38:11.460 --> 00:38:12.179
T. Davis.

822
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:15.900
You know, they both have the same kind of energy to them.

823
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:16.739
Yeah, interesting.

824
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:21.900
And of course, David was a longtime collaborator with Russell D

825
00:38:21.900 --> 00:38:24.059
Davis, like Casanova and earlier productions as well.

826
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:29.159
The thing is, JT sort of sets that standard, which continues into

827
00:38:29.159 --> 00:38:29.880
the new series.

828
00:38:29.940 --> 00:38:33.900
And even with Philip Siegel on the telly movie, hosting the

829
00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:37.380
electronic press kit and taking people around the TARDIS.

830
00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:41.579
So we kind of have JNT to thank for the modern role of the

831
00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:42.300
showrunner.

832
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:46.440
And I know there are friends of the podcast who listen and enjoy

833
00:38:46.440 --> 00:38:49.920
the Moffat era far more than the Russell T. Davis era, including

834
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.179
my girlfriend, J.R.

835
00:38:51.179 --> 00:38:54.840
Southall, and he and I have appeared on other podcasts, debating

836
00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:57.900
the merits of the Moffat era versus the RTD era.

837
00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.219
Which is wonderful.

838
00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:01.139
It's a wonderful thing you can do in fandom.

839
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:04.800
And I think debating is fine, but as soon as you say 4 years of

840
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.719
failure is all a person's fault.

841
00:39:06.780 --> 00:39:11.519
It's always her I'm not a big fan of the Moffat era, but I'm able

842
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.699
to recognise that he's done some very good things in his time and

843
00:39:14.699 --> 00:39:16.619
the bad things are not always his fault.

844
00:39:16.980 --> 00:39:19.199
They needed a 3rd wheel.

845
00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:21.480
I was just thinking that And then I remember, yeah, Brian Minchin

846
00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:22.679
as well, for the same reason.

847
00:39:22.739 --> 00:39:26.760
As soon as Brian Minchin comes in, the quality goes up and that's

848
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:30.480
not casting explosions on Caro Scanner...

849
00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:32.579
You can't, yeah, you can't do everything exactly.

850
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:34.500
Unless you're Julie Gardner, obviously.

851
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:35.460
Oh, yeah, yeah.

852
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:37.800
You know, if you brought back Julie Gardner, we'd be back up to

853
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:38.460
10000000 a week.

854
00:39:38.519 --> 00:39:42.480
Isn't Chris Bidme, just looking shining at this point.

855
00:39:42.539 --> 00:39:44.219
Yeah, oh, yeah, history.

856
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:46.860
Okay, just to break things up a bit.

857
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.820
It's time for Snog, Mary, and avoider, right?

858
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:53.460
We need to get a bit light here.

859
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:53.940
So Nathan.

860
00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:55.139
Whereas the deep.

861
00:39:55.139 --> 00:39:57.239
Resurrection of the Daleks and Terminus.

862
00:40:00.300 --> 00:40:02.159
Life is really grim, isn't it?

863
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:04.679
This is really terrible.

864
00:40:05.340 --> 00:40:10.679
I would have to say that I would avoid Resurrection of the

865
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:11.280
Daleks.

866
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.039
And I do stand by...

867
00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:17.039
Look, maybe there was some hyperbole in my. no, there wasn't.

868
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:21.300
I do stand by my opinion that that was my least favourite Doctor

869
00:40:21.300 --> 00:40:25.679
Who story to date, and I like it much less even than the racist

870
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:28.079
and pro war ones from the 1960s.

871
00:40:28.500 --> 00:40:30.780
It's really terrible.

872
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.659
Terminus is very dull.

873
00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:38.820
I don't find it objectionable, but I don't think it has very much

874
00:40:38.820 --> 00:40:43.380
going for it apart from Colin Baker's ex-wife, who I think is

875
00:40:43.380 --> 00:40:44.519
really fabulous in it.

876
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.159
Clancy of the overflow.

877
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:48.179
Clancy of the overflow.

878
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:48.900
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

879
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:50.760
So like I'll marry that one.

880
00:40:50.820 --> 00:40:52.019
No, why not?

881
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:54.480
And so what do I have to snog now?

882
00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:55.199
worries of the deep.

883
00:40:55.679 --> 00:40:57.960
You get to have Ingrid Pitt.

884
00:40:58.079 --> 00:40:59.519
Yeah, yeah, or the marker.

885
00:40:59.579 --> 00:41:00.420
Well, both, really.

886
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:03.599
Tom Adams, do you get to snog too?

887
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:04.619
Yeah, yeah, he's handsome.

888
00:41:04.679 --> 00:41:05.219
Nothing wrong with that?

889
00:41:05.280 --> 00:41:06.539
Brendan?

890
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:07.079
Oh, dear.

891
00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:08.639
Black orchard?

892
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:10.500
Terminus.

893
00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:12.599
Time flight?

894
00:41:12.659 --> 00:41:13.440
Okay.

895
00:41:14.099 --> 00:41:16.980
Again, I'm changing this to Snorg Mary.

896
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:17.639
Push off a cliff.

897
00:41:17.699 --> 00:41:18.719
I push back.

898
00:41:18.780 --> 00:41:19.739
Say Snogmake Hill.

899
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:21.539
That's a possible...

900
00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:22.800
That's the Archer version as well.

901
00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:25.559
Because as we see on the Avengers, if you push them clear of the

902
00:41:25.559 --> 00:41:29.280
rocks, they survive in All Done with Mirrors, which now has a

903
00:41:29.280 --> 00:41:30.480
commentary by Lindthorst.

904
00:41:30.539 --> 00:41:33.659
You can see where Brendan and I want to be.

905
00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:36.960
Okay, so yeah, I'm pushing Black Orchid off a cliff.

906
00:41:37.019 --> 00:41:41.340
So that leaves me with Snog and Mary with terminus and what was

907
00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:41.699
the other one?

908
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:42.840
Time flight.

909
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:43.559
Time flight.

910
00:41:43.619 --> 00:41:45.900
I think I'd have a tete a tete with terminus.

911
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:48.119
Plenty of good looking boys in that.

912
00:41:48.179 --> 00:41:50.639
Some of them with long hair and big plastic armour, so that's

913
00:41:50.639 --> 00:41:50.820
fine.

914
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:53.039
Some of them with horrific skin diseases.

915
00:41:53.099 --> 00:41:54.480
Yeah, well, yeah.

916
00:41:54.539 --> 00:41:57.480
But they keep your cereal fresh. they're wearing.

917
00:41:57.539 --> 00:42:00.420
So, yeah, I'd snock terminus.

918
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:03.000
I think I'd marry time flight, because as I've said at the time, I

919
00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:07.199
love the ideas of time flight and, you know, a good marriage

920
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:12.719
shouldn't just be about looks, it should be about loving the ideas

921
00:42:12.719 --> 00:42:14.460
and loving the mind.

922
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:15.539
Captain Stapley.

923
00:42:15.599 --> 00:42:17.099
It should be about loving Captain Stack.

924
00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:18.360
Loving Captain Stapling.

925
00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:19.500
Of course, Michael Cashman.

926
00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:23.039
It is, you know, it is the gayest story of the Davison era.

927
00:42:23.099 --> 00:42:24.840
For sheer volume.

928
00:42:24.900 --> 00:42:26.280
It competes with Peter Winger.

929
00:42:26.579 --> 00:42:29.699
I was going to say, there's a sport for choice.

930
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:34.440
But yeah, I think I would have to marry time flight because, and

931
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:36.719
you know, I'm saying good marriage shouldn't be about, looks, the

932
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:38.099
design on time flight's okay.

933
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:39.300
The Xeraphim look good.

934
00:42:39.360 --> 00:42:41.940
The internal sets often look good.

935
00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:44.699
Conceptually.

936
00:42:44.699 --> 00:42:45.960
In their hen tie suits?

937
00:42:46.019 --> 00:42:46.980
The designs are beautiful.

938
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:47.699
Yeah, yeah.

939
00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:50.820
Actually, I remember my adolescent mind.

940
00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:51.840
So when did these go out?

941
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:53.219
Probably about 1995.

942
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:57.239
So I was 11 or 12, having stirrings, about the Xerophon in their

943
00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:58.079
hentai suits.

944
00:42:58.139 --> 00:42:59.880
So, certainly...

945
00:42:59.880 --> 00:43:04.199
And, well, the plasma tons.

946
00:43:04.260 --> 00:43:06.420
Well, there's always some crap somewhere in some marriage, isn't

947
00:43:06.420 --> 00:43:06.599
there?

948
00:43:06.659 --> 00:43:09.000
So, yeah, I think I'd have to marry time plot.

949
00:43:09.360 --> 00:43:11.820
Chancellor Flavia.

950
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:15.360
Thalia and Beryl Reed.

951
00:43:16.260 --> 00:43:18.300
Okay, quick question.

952
00:43:18.360 --> 00:43:19.260
Beryl Reed.

953
00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:20.579
Or Captain Briggs?

954
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:21.719
Sorry, Captain Briggs.

955
00:43:21.780 --> 00:43:23.340
Yeah, 3 choices.

956
00:43:23.400 --> 00:43:24.239
Snark Mary avoid.

957
00:43:24.300 --> 00:43:26.280
And the other 2 were...

958
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:28.260
So, Thalia is Elspeth Gray.

959
00:43:28.260 --> 00:43:30.900
And Flavia is Dinah Sheridan.

960
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:33.420
Sheridan. and Captain Briggs is...

961
00:43:33.420 --> 00:43:34.619
I'm totally sport for choice.

962
00:43:34.739 --> 00:43:37.920
We could move to San Francisco and have a quadruped, couldn't we?

963
00:43:38.820 --> 00:43:43.500
whatever, the quadraine of, I know, it's quick.

964
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:47.340
Diana Sheridan, I worship forever because she was in the 1950

965
00:43:47.340 --> 00:43:51.960
Blair film Genevieve with John Griggson, who is intensely handsome

966
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.019
and Kenneth Moore, and it was about the London to Brighton car

967
00:43:55.019 --> 00:43:57.239
race, and there are police boxes in it, and she is just

968
00:43:57.239 --> 00:43:58.139
delicious.

969
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:02.099
Um, and then Larry Adler did the score and it's one of my all-time

970
00:44:02.099 --> 00:44:03.179
favourite British films.

971
00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:07.860
And, of course, Elspick Gray was the 2nd season Penelope Keith

972
00:44:07.860 --> 00:44:11.820
mother in Cat Weasel and it's delicious with Arrow and Moray

973
00:44:11.820 --> 00:44:12.239
Watson.

974
00:44:12.300 --> 00:44:14.400
The steed we never had.

975
00:44:14.460 --> 00:44:18.000
And then, of course, there's Beryl Reed, who his career really

976
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:22.199
struck, um, got going doing Joe Orton plays in entertaining Mr

977
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:22.679
Sloan.

978
00:44:22.739 --> 00:44:25.199
She was Kathy back in the early 60s.

979
00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:28.860
She done other stuff, but she really started doing kind of the

980
00:44:28.860 --> 00:44:32.219
girly Kenneth Williams, really, but not in carry-ons.

981
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:33.539
She never did carry on, did she?

982
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:35.280
Oh, how do I marry?

983
00:44:35.340 --> 00:44:39.059
I think it's got to be Elspott Grey just because she makes such

984
00:44:39.059 --> 00:44:41.699
lovely finger sandwiches in Cat Weasel.

985
00:44:41.760 --> 00:44:45.360
And um, Dinah Sheridan, um, Flavia.

986
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:49.559
I'd probably, um, I don't want to avoid her.

987
00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:52.139
I might avoid her just because I've already spoiled for choice.

988
00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:54.059
So you definitely have to snog Beryl Reed.

989
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:54.719
Hooray.

990
00:44:54.780 --> 00:44:55.980
You have to, wouldn't you?

991
00:44:56.039 --> 00:44:58.199
I think that might be the 1st time you've actually answered that

992
00:44:58.199 --> 00:44:58.559
question.

993
00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:01.860
Yeah, yeah.

994
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:03.480
Well, I mean, I take these things very seriously.

995
00:45:04.980 --> 00:45:07.019
High crumpet value.

996
00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:12.000
Okay, in terms of the regulars in the series.

997
00:45:12.179 --> 00:45:15.360
I mean, maybe this is an obvious question.

998
00:45:15.480 --> 00:45:18.119
What's sort of a double-barrel question.

999
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:23.519
Who, perhaps, is wasted the most in terms of the recognising, as

1000
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:24.840
in drunk, is the most drunk?

1001
00:45:24.900 --> 00:45:30.420
But who do you really, besides Pete, who do you really give kudos

1002
00:45:30.420 --> 00:45:30.599
to?

1003
00:45:31.139 --> 00:45:35.579
I'd be surprised if my answer was different from anyone else's, but

1004
00:45:35.579 --> 00:45:37.500
I think Sarah Sutton is wasted?

1005
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:40.619
They stick her in a cupboard in most of her stories.

1006
00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:41.760
They really do.

1007
00:45:41.820 --> 00:45:42.599
Yeah, they do.

1008
00:45:42.659 --> 00:45:47.760
And I think Janet Fielding, as Tegan is absolutely spectacular.

1009
00:45:47.820 --> 00:45:50.820
She's really, really brought so much to it, hasn't she?

1010
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.880
You can really see how she develops, both as an actor and develops

1011
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:54.420
the character.

1012
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:55.980
Yeah, you really can.

1013
00:45:56.039 --> 00:46:01.500
And she comes in and she pitches it as sort of kids TV. you know

1014
00:46:01.500 --> 00:46:05.159
and then gradually learns that, no, she can actually do proper

1015
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:06.960
acting in it and that it still works.

1016
00:46:07.019 --> 00:46:10.619
And by the end, she's just terrific.

1017
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:13.440
I don't think, you know, you may have heard me say that

1018
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:17.400
Resurrection of the Daleks isn't my favourite story, but the best

1019
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:21.000
scene in it is that scene at the end and she's really, really

1020
00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:21.360
good.

1021
00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:25.739
And remember all that time ago when she wanted into the Tartars to

1022
00:46:25.739 --> 00:46:29.639
tell us that her name was Tegan Gvanka and compare that to the

1023
00:46:29.639 --> 00:46:33.719
performance at the end of Resurrection of the Daleks, her last

1024
00:46:33.719 --> 00:46:34.260
performance.

1025
00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:40.440
She's really good and she's funny and feisty and like a good model

1026
00:46:40.440 --> 00:46:43.320
for the female companion.

1027
00:46:43.380 --> 00:46:44.940
You know, I just think she's terrific.

1028
00:46:45.059 --> 00:46:49.920
I would agree that Sarah Sutton is wasted in the role.

1029
00:46:49.980 --> 00:46:53.099
I think in terms of what she's given to do.

1030
00:46:53.159 --> 00:46:56.400
She's no better or worse than Matthew Waterhouse's Adric.

1031
00:46:56.460 --> 00:46:58.619
I think they're given about the same amount to do.

1032
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:00.960
Okay, he's not put to sleep for a story, but whatever.

1033
00:47:01.260 --> 00:47:02.940
It's only been.

1034
00:47:02.940 --> 00:47:03.599
It had been.

1035
00:47:03.659 --> 00:47:06.360
Yeah, that's what we do with dogs when they've got bad here.

1036
00:47:06.360 --> 00:47:11.219
But I think, um, and I'm, I did have a funny walk.

1037
00:47:12.179 --> 00:47:16.139
I'm not wanting to be unkind to Matthew, but I think in terms of

1038
00:47:16.139 --> 00:47:17.820
the quality of artist.

1039
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:21.780
Sarah Sutton is leaps and bounds ahead of him and also leaps.

1040
00:47:21.900 --> 00:47:22.440
Yeah, yeah.

1041
00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:24.900
A lot more experienced when she is given stuff to do.

1042
00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:27.179
There's sort of a subtlety in her performance and that's why I

1043
00:47:27.179 --> 00:47:31.199
think she's wasted because I think Matthew gave all that he could

1044
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:31.679
to the part.

1045
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:34.559
And I think he gives a decent performance.

1046
00:47:34.619 --> 00:47:39.059
Whereas I don't think Sarah Sutton, with one or 2 exceptions

1047
00:47:39.059 --> 00:47:42.360
including Arc of Infinity, I don't think she gets much of an

1048
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:45.059
opportunity to give everything she can to the past.

1049
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:49.320
She wants to, but she is she's put in a pretty thankless role a

1050
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:49.860
lot of the time.

1051
00:47:49.980 --> 00:47:55.199
In terms of kind of my favourite performance, I agree with

1052
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:56.579
everything you've said about Janet.

1053
00:47:56.639 --> 00:48:00.300
But my kind of revelation, in terms of the companions on this way

1054
00:48:00.300 --> 00:48:02.099
through, has actually been Mark Strickson.

1055
00:48:02.219 --> 00:48:05.519
And it's kind of the other side of the Sarah Sutton thing, Sarah

1056
00:48:05.519 --> 00:48:07.440
Sutton is constantly locked in a cupboard in things.

1057
00:48:07.500 --> 00:48:11.340
When Mark Strickson is locked in a cupboard, you're still really

1058
00:48:11.340 --> 00:48:14.400
curious to know what Turlow's doing because you cut back to him

1059
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.519
and he's trying to batter a door down or he's crawling through

1060
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:22.559
ducting, complaining about how unfit he is, or he's whinging at

1061
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:24.719
Preston that, no, we shouldn't save anyone else's lives.

1062
00:48:24.780 --> 00:48:25.739
We need to survive.

1063
00:48:25.800 --> 00:48:30.780
You know, he's always captivating to watch, despite the fact that

1064
00:48:30.780 --> 00:48:33.599
he's kind of said in later years, you know, I was just locked in a

1065
00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:34.019
cupboard.

1066
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:39.300
But, he doesn't allow that to to limit his performance.

1067
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:41.159
Not that I think Sarah Sutton does.

1068
00:48:41.219 --> 00:48:43.920
I think possibly all that time looking up Sarah Sutton in the

1069
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:47.039
cupboard, they've kind of gone, okay, occasionally we need to come

1070
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:48.960
back to the cupboard to see what the character's doing.

1071
00:48:49.019 --> 00:48:51.840
And I think Mark Strickson really rises to that, which means when

1072
00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:55.800
he's out of the cupboard, he's absolutely fascinating to watch

1073
00:48:55.800 --> 00:49:00.480
because it's like waiting for a champagne cork to pop.

1074
00:49:00.539 --> 00:49:03.659
You know there's going to be such energy once he gets out.

1075
00:49:03.719 --> 00:49:06.539
Like, the awakening is a great example of that, where as soon as

1076
00:49:06.539 --> 00:49:09.480
he busts out, he doesn't stop running around and...

1077
00:49:09.539 --> 00:49:11.039
That's just all the gas inside.

1078
00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:15.719
Well, well, he is ginger. don't have souls, isn't that right?

1079
00:49:15.780 --> 00:49:18.719
Well, that's also why the salary was worn because, you know, he's

1080
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:19.860
all on the Praxis spectrum.

1081
00:49:20.699 --> 00:49:24.239
No, I agree with everything that you said there.

1082
00:49:24.300 --> 00:49:28.139
You know, Mark's performance, Janet's performance and...

1083
00:49:28.139 --> 00:49:29.280
Carbonated, yes.

1084
00:49:29.340 --> 00:49:30.420
How to use to Sarah.

1085
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:34.260
I agree with what you said a while back, but actually, I think it

1086
00:49:34.260 --> 00:49:35.039
was...

1087
00:49:35.159 --> 00:49:36.119
Yeah, that.

1088
00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:36.960
Why isn't everyone dead?

1089
00:49:37.019 --> 00:49:40.619
No, you said, and I think I quoted you because it was from one of

1090
00:49:40.619 --> 00:49:44.820
the episodes that you weren't in, that Pete, Janet, and Mark are

1091
00:49:44.820 --> 00:49:47.579
the best regular cast of the 1980s.

1092
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:50.519
In terms of acting ability and what they deliver?

1093
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:50.880
Yes.

1094
00:49:50.940 --> 00:49:51.599
Really?

1095
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:55.920
That's going to be quite challenging when we get to Nicola.

1096
00:49:56.039 --> 00:49:57.960
Well, I just horrific.

1097
00:49:58.019 --> 00:50:02.340
I think Nicola is very charming and very nice, but I don't I don't

1098
00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:05.400
like them anywhere near as much as I like Pete, Mark and Janet.

1099
00:50:05.460 --> 00:50:07.320
I'm with you on that.

1100
00:50:07.860 --> 00:50:12.840
Okay, now in terms of pep stories, are there any stories that you

1101
00:50:12.840 --> 00:50:16.019
feel are underrated now, generally by fandom?

1102
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:21.659
I think in many ways, so many are and so many are overrated, but

1103
00:50:21.659 --> 00:50:25.559
so many are also under and that we've found new things to both

1104
00:50:25.559 --> 00:50:29.820
love and and, you know, be despondent over on in all of them

1105
00:50:29.820 --> 00:50:30.119
really.

1106
00:50:30.179 --> 00:50:34.920
I think the lead-ups too, the ones just before the great pearls

1107
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:37.619
the ones that we worship, like Andrew Zani, actually find Planet

1108
00:50:37.619 --> 00:50:41.880
of Fire has some really terrific subtle direction and performances

1109
00:50:41.880 --> 00:50:42.239
in it.

1110
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:45.840
And there's a lot of dross in it as well, but there's some really

1111
00:50:45.840 --> 00:50:49.920
lovely moments in it, usually because with the actors in them, you

1112
00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:51.780
know, elevate their moments in the story.

1113
00:50:51.840 --> 00:50:55.380
And when you think back to when we were young people and seeing it

1114
00:50:55.380 --> 00:50:57.300
they're the moments that have stayed with us.

1115
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:03.360
For me, this has been 3 seasons of actors sublimating the scripts

1116
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:05.280
rising above and doing more.

1117
00:51:05.340 --> 00:51:08.519
And I think that's because Pete was leading them along that path

1118
00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:12.179
especially as you were saying earlier, he was the anti-Tom all the

1119
00:51:12.179 --> 00:51:12.360
time.

1120
00:51:12.420 --> 00:51:14.940
It was pretty much perfect casting.

1121
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.860
I don't know if it was done for the right reasons.

1122
00:51:16.980 --> 00:51:18.119
I don't know if Jane.

1123
00:51:18.300 --> 00:51:21.719
I think JNT was more intuitive than even he gave himself credit

1124
00:51:21.719 --> 00:51:22.079
for.

1125
00:51:22.139 --> 00:51:25.380
He actually knew what made good entertainment because he's so

1126
00:51:25.380 --> 00:51:30.239
actively, and if you can say studiously anti-intellectual.

1127
00:51:30.300 --> 00:51:34.679
He really did despise cleverness, but he also didn't then

1128
00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:38.460
appreciate that his intuition was a form of intelligence in

1129
00:51:38.460 --> 00:51:39.119
itself.

1130
00:51:39.179 --> 00:51:41.579
And the 2 can work together.

1131
00:51:41.639 --> 00:51:44.280
But no, Peter was perfect casting, as it turns out.

1132
00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:51.599
I think if I had to choose one that I think people underrate, it's

1133
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:52.619
time blight.

1134
00:51:52.679 --> 00:51:56.460
As I said at the time, there's some great concepts in there, I

1135
00:51:56.460 --> 00:51:59.400
think what lets it down, aside from the production, but I think as

1136
00:51:59.400 --> 00:52:03.239
Doctor Who fans, we can overlook poor production.

1137
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:06.960
I absolutely agree that the ending is underwhelming.

1138
00:52:07.019 --> 00:52:10.380
It's the doctor and the master exchanging Makano sets, you know

1139
00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:11.039
who the hell cares?

1140
00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:13.500
But the 3 episodes leading up to that.

1141
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:18.539
We have time travel, we have psychic abilities, we have a gestolt

1142
00:52:18.539 --> 00:52:20.940
entity being used as a power source.

1143
00:52:21.239 --> 00:52:26.460
We have 2 mesmerising performances by Anthony Ainley.

1144
00:52:26.519 --> 00:52:30.840
Whether they're good or bad is up to you, but Anthony Ali is

1145
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:32.820
clearly enjoying himself in this role.

1146
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:34.920
The whole cast are clearly enjoying themselves.

1147
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:39.179
It was great end of year fun when we saw it as children and I'd

1148
00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:40.739
love to an alien, that one.

1149
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:44.400
And you know, for the middle 2 episodes, episodes 2 and three.

1150
00:52:44.460 --> 00:52:49.079
It's quite a strong story for Tegan and Nissa coming together

1151
00:52:49.079 --> 00:52:51.900
after Adrick's death, and they're the ones who make their way into

1152
00:52:51.900 --> 00:52:54.360
the inner sanctum, and this is the one who figures out it's a

1153
00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:55.739
gestolt entity.

1154
00:52:55.800 --> 00:52:56.699
This is how we help it.

1155
00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.519
So there's a lot to love in that story.

1156
00:52:59.639 --> 00:53:02.820
I, you know, I definitely agree it shouldn't be on anyone's top 10

1157
00:53:02.820 --> 00:53:03.300
list.

1158
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:07.619
But I think just dismissing it because of the production values

1159
00:53:07.619 --> 00:53:10.679
and because of the ending, you miss a lot of very, very good stuff

1160
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:12.599
and some decent acting as well.

1161
00:53:12.659 --> 00:53:15.900
Because I think Black Orchid, as you say, Todd, is around the

1162
00:53:15.900 --> 00:53:18.300
point that Janet gets drunk and figures out who a character is.

1163
00:53:18.360 --> 00:53:21.840
So that's starting to become solidified here.

1164
00:53:21.900 --> 00:53:25.380
And when Tegan's horrified or worried about things, she's not

1165
00:53:25.380 --> 00:53:28.679
being shrieky and shouty anymore in this story.

1166
00:53:28.739 --> 00:53:34.440
She's being sensible and logical and Anissa gets to be a bit more

1167
00:53:34.440 --> 00:53:37.079
intuitive and emotional and we get those psychic abilities, which

1168
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:39.179
are sadly not touched upon again in the series.

1169
00:53:39.239 --> 00:53:42.780
So, yeah, I think there's a lot more to time flight than people

1170
00:53:42.780 --> 00:53:43.380
give it credit for.

1171
00:53:43.440 --> 00:53:46.260
Yeah, no, I really agree with you, Richard.

1172
00:53:46.380 --> 00:53:48.119
I think Planet of Fire is underrated.

1173
00:53:48.179 --> 00:53:52.320
But I have to say the 1st story that came to my mind was Snake

1174
00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:52.800
Dance.

1175
00:53:52.860 --> 00:53:54.840
And I know that some people really like...

1176
00:53:54.840 --> 00:53:57.719
My favourite shows and real lobster, that's his favourite.

1177
00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:00.179
And I would never even consider that to be underrated.

1178
00:54:00.300 --> 00:54:02.699
I always thought that was at the top of people's list.

1179
00:54:02.760 --> 00:54:05.639
I always think that people, I don't know, maybe it's the sort of

1180
00:54:05.639 --> 00:54:08.820
people I hang out with apart from you, lovely gentlemen.

1181
00:54:08.880 --> 00:54:09.599
People who need people.

1182
00:54:09.659 --> 00:54:10.260
People.

1183
00:54:10.260 --> 00:54:11.639
Are they the luckiest ones?

1184
00:54:11.639 --> 00:54:12.900
I don't know.

1185
00:54:12.900 --> 00:54:13.920
The neediest people.

1186
00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:14.820
Yeah.

1187
00:54:14.940 --> 00:54:18.119
No, I, you know, the big highlights, the things that everyone

1188
00:54:18.119 --> 00:54:21.900
raves about are things like earthshock and and Rosani and that

1189
00:54:21.900 --> 00:54:26.099
kind of thread of Doctor Who, which I've already said, I don't

1190
00:54:26.099 --> 00:54:26.940
generally like.

1191
00:54:27.000 --> 00:54:29.880
I mean, I think we talked about Andresani last week and why I

1192
00:54:29.880 --> 00:54:30.420
think it's good.

1193
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:35.039
But snake dance is a kind of a hidden gem, and I think Kinder is

1194
00:54:35.039 --> 00:54:37.500
more salient in people's memories than snake dances.

1195
00:54:37.559 --> 00:54:39.539
Snake dance is the better of the two.

1196
00:54:39.599 --> 00:54:40.199
I think so too.

1197
00:54:40.260 --> 00:54:41.340
But I think Kinder's very good.

1198
00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:44.519
Yeah, but snake dance is more confident and has some great

1199
00:54:44.519 --> 00:54:45.780
performances and great design.

1200
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:47.460
Really lovely performances.

1201
00:54:47.579 --> 00:54:49.800
Doctor Who fans have this thing.

1202
00:54:49.860 --> 00:54:54.300
And I think it's possibly because it's easy to draw direct

1203
00:54:54.300 --> 00:54:57.659
analogies and lines between different characters and different

1204
00:54:57.659 --> 00:54:58.139
stories.

1205
00:54:58.199 --> 00:54:59.760
Doctor fans have this thing.

1206
00:54:59.820 --> 00:55:02.760
You give them 2 elements of the series, like 2 companions or 2

1207
00:55:02.760 --> 00:55:03.659
doctors or 2 stories.

1208
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:07.079
They have to decide one's better and one's worse.

1209
00:55:07.139 --> 00:55:07.860
Yeah, yeah.

1210
00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.739
And I think that's what's happened with kinder and snake dance

1211
00:55:10.739 --> 00:55:14.880
even though, in some ways, snake dance is the more cerebral

1212
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:15.300
story.

1213
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:19.380
I think the visual element of Kinder is what trumps it for most

1214
00:55:19.380 --> 00:55:19.619
people.

1215
00:55:19.739 --> 00:55:23.219
Whereas you can look at them and go, they're both amazing pieces

1216
00:55:23.219 --> 00:55:24.059
of television.

1217
00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:26.760
To me, they are completely equal to each other even though they do

1218
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:27.179
different things.

1219
00:55:27.659 --> 00:55:29.219
Interesting.

1220
00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:30.780
What do you think is underrated, Todd?

1221
00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:34.739
I would stand by Fort Doomsday, which I've always liked.

1222
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:36.000
It is funniness.

1223
00:55:36.059 --> 00:55:38.280
You can see how he wanted to play the part.

1224
00:55:38.340 --> 00:55:42.780
Even though performances are ropey in very early on, which, of

1225
00:55:42.780 --> 00:55:43.800
course, takes away from it.

1226
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:47.099
I've always had a soft spot for Warriors of the team.

1227
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:50.099
Not the Silurians and sea devils, but Peter.

1228
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:52.079
Peter in that story, but me.

1229
00:55:52.139 --> 00:55:55.260
And you mentioned Planet of Fire, which I adore.

1230
00:55:55.320 --> 00:55:59.579
And Snake Dance, which, as I said, at the time, I was really

1231
00:55:59.579 --> 00:56:00.300
surprised by.

1232
00:56:00.420 --> 00:56:04.320
And I'll ignore that other one because I just yeah, sorry

1233
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:04.739
Brendan.

1234
00:56:05.460 --> 00:56:11.099
So on that note, let's, we usually do a top three, I think.

1235
00:56:11.099 --> 00:56:14.940
So put your minds to, if you had to pick three.

1236
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:17.400
It doesn't have to be, you don't have to have one, two, three, that

1237
00:56:17.400 --> 00:56:18.239
can all be equal, right?

1238
00:56:18.300 --> 00:56:21.900
Yep, what would you go with for this era of the show?

1239
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:23.280
Okay.

1240
00:56:23.340 --> 00:56:27.239
I think I would definitely have to pick Enlightenment.

1241
00:56:27.300 --> 00:56:28.739
Frontios.

1242
00:56:28.860 --> 00:56:31.019
Black Orchid, obviously.

1243
00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:36.900
Black Enlightenment, Frontios, and Kinder.

1244
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:41.280
In no particular order, you know, we have one of them's a sci-fi

1245
00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:42.300
action adventure story.

1246
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:46.500
One of them is not an action adventure, but an adventure story

1247
00:56:46.500 --> 00:56:51.059
with a cerebral and even a romantic arguably element.

1248
00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:55.500
And one of them is a very cerebral story with, as I've already

1249
00:56:55.500 --> 00:56:59.159
mentioned, I think Naris Hughes, gives the best guest performance

1250
00:56:59.159 --> 00:56:59.760
in the series.

1251
00:57:00.599 --> 00:57:06.300
I also, I wanted to pick one from each season because even season

1252
00:57:06.300 --> 00:57:10.079
20, I think half of it's very good and half of it is pretty dire.

1253
00:57:10.139 --> 00:57:14.039
So, yeah, those would be my 3 from the Pete era.

1254
00:57:14.099 --> 00:57:16.440
Enlightenment Frontios Kinder.

1255
00:57:16.500 --> 00:57:17.820
Possibly even in that order.

1256
00:57:17.880 --> 00:57:23.820
Can I pick Andrazani, Frontios, and Snake Dance?

1257
00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:25.619
Maybe in that order.

1258
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:27.719
Is that 2 guns and a frog?

1259
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:28.920
Yeah, maybe.

1260
00:57:28.980 --> 00:57:30.119
Maybe.

1261
00:57:30.179 --> 00:57:33.719
But I do think, as I said before, that home subverts the gum

1262
00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:34.139
thing.

1263
00:57:34.139 --> 00:57:38.159
And just that, you know, Holmes and Harper together and Pete just

1264
00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:41.460
absolutely make that just an incredible Doctor Who experience.

1265
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:45.960
I also want to give special mention to enlightenment and the 5

1266
00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:46.800
doctors.

1267
00:57:46.980 --> 00:57:50.039
Because they are so nice to come home to.

1268
00:57:50.099 --> 00:57:50.940
Yeah, I think so.

1269
00:57:51.000 --> 00:57:52.800
Yeah, they both bake.

1270
00:57:53.940 --> 00:57:57.239
Speaking of Richard, thank you very much for our muffins.

1271
00:57:57.300 --> 00:57:58.440
We had muffins.

1272
00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:00.000
And they were delicious muffins.

1273
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:00.719
Thank you so much.

1274
00:58:00.780 --> 00:58:02.940
Well, speaking of comfort food.

1275
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:08.400
Anyway, mine are kinder, snake dance, and episode one of Black

1276
00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:09.179
Orchid.

1277
00:58:09.239 --> 00:58:10.980
Yes, fair enough.

1278
00:58:11.039 --> 00:58:13.199
I think I said that I thought that was the best episode of the

1279
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:13.500
season.

1280
00:58:13.559 --> 00:58:18.000
It's simply because fit-wise, it's where Pete, I'm not saying he's

1281
00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:18.480
well fit.

1282
00:58:18.539 --> 00:58:20.579
It's where he should have been.

1283
00:58:20.639 --> 00:58:22.980
They were the, they were the kind of parts you should have been

1284
00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:23.280
playing.

1285
00:58:23.340 --> 00:58:24.840
And yes, he's terrific in Andrews.

1286
00:58:24.900 --> 00:58:26.280
I am not saying they're his best performances.

1287
00:58:26.340 --> 00:58:28.320
Actually, I think I agree with Todd.

1288
00:58:28.380 --> 00:58:30.420
I think Warriors are the deep and Andrazani are his best

1289
00:58:30.420 --> 00:58:31.199
performance.

1290
00:58:31.260 --> 00:58:34.260
But it's how I can see the part it should have been.

1291
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:37.559
They should have kept, he works in a bubble universe in warmth and

1292
00:58:37.559 --> 00:58:37.920
comfort.

1293
00:58:37.980 --> 00:58:42.239
And if Saywood and JNT had been sympathetic with each other and

1294
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:45.719
watched their own show, actually, and watched how it was

1295
00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:46.260
developing.

1296
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:50.280
They might have been able to, you know, project and massage it

1297
00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:51.719
into the direction it should have gone.

1298
00:58:51.780 --> 00:58:53.940
And then we might we might well have had another 2 years of

1299
00:58:53.940 --> 00:58:54.239
Peter.

1300
00:58:54.360 --> 00:58:58.139
Well, it's really interesting, all these stories that you've

1301
00:58:58.139 --> 00:59:01.199
mentioned, and this is what I'm going to say.

1302
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:03.179
Frontios.

1303
00:59:03.719 --> 00:59:05.699
Enlightenment.

1304
00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:07.800
Snake dance.

1305
00:59:07.860 --> 00:59:08.460
Wow.

1306
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:09.360
And that's from you.

1307
00:59:09.420 --> 00:59:12.000
And which is my least favourite season.

1308
00:59:12.059 --> 00:59:12.539
Yeah.

1309
00:59:12.539 --> 00:59:12.840
Yeah.

1310
00:59:12.900 --> 00:59:13.320
Yeah, yeah.

1311
00:59:13.380 --> 00:59:15.360
And honourable mention is the 5 doctors.

1312
00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:17.579
So, and that's from season 20.

1313
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:20.519
So I've chosen 3 stories from season 20 and that is my least

1314
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:23.820
favourite season, which tells me, which tells everybody what I

1315
00:59:23.820 --> 00:59:25.019
think of the rest of the season.

1316
00:59:25.079 --> 00:59:27.960
But I also dearly love Planet of Fire.

1317
00:59:28.019 --> 00:59:32.940
Yes, and episode one of Black, which is a story that I had

1318
00:59:32.940 --> 00:59:34.440
previously really did not like at all.

1319
00:59:34.500 --> 00:59:36.000
There you go.

1320
00:59:36.059 --> 00:59:38.940
And at least, you know, at least in Frontios, 2 people die.

1321
00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:40.980
So you know, you're a bit satisfied.

1322
00:59:41.039 --> 00:59:44.340
I mean, you know, they're hideously dismembered.

1323
00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:46.500
Look, you just wait till next season.

1324
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:48.900
I'm just going to be there going, this is fantastic.

1325
00:59:50.099 --> 00:59:52.559
And nobody else will agree with me.

1326
00:59:52.619 --> 00:59:54.659
I can't wait to hear.

1327
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:55.980
Oh, dear.

1328
00:59:56.099 --> 01:00:00.239
Besides Graham Harper, whom we've singled out last week, is there

1329
01:00:00.239 --> 01:00:02.820
any other director that you would like to discuss in terms of

1330
01:00:02.820 --> 01:00:05.039
bringing something to the show?

1331
01:00:05.039 --> 01:00:09.659
I mean, I would be going with Fiona Cumming, who I think has, I

1332
01:00:09.659 --> 01:00:11.639
think, done a really competent job in all of her stories and

1333
01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:14.400
certainly in terms of casting, you know, she's cast really well

1334
01:00:14.760 --> 01:00:17.219
and her strengths have shown through.

1335
01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:20.340
I know you don't like resurrection, but I actually think the

1336
01:00:20.340 --> 01:00:21.179
direction of that.

1337
01:00:21.179 --> 01:00:23.099
I actually like his post direction.

1338
01:00:23.159 --> 01:00:26.400
Matthew Robinson is a good director. and I'll be happy to have him

1339
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:26.639
back.

1340
01:00:26.699 --> 01:00:30.840
Something happens with Ron Jones, and it only happens once.

1341
01:00:30.900 --> 01:00:35.340
Ron Jones, of course, 1st directed timeslight, which I mentioned.

1342
01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:39.719
I quite like the design work on that, but I don't think it's

1343
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:41.159
particularly well directed.

1344
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:45.480
He then comes back for Arc of Infinity. which is appallingly

1345
01:00:45.480 --> 01:00:47.039
directed and appallingly designed.

1346
01:00:47.099 --> 01:00:51.119
However, then he comes in and does Frontios, which is amazing, and

1347
01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:54.360
he'll come back and do 2 Colin stories more on those later.

1348
01:00:54.420 --> 01:01:02.519
But Frontios, there is just something that triggers quality from

1349
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:04.019
him, which wasn't there before.

1350
01:01:04.079 --> 01:01:07.380
And I'm pretty sure the designer of Frontios hadn't worked on the

1351
01:01:07.380 --> 01:01:09.360
show before, so they were new as well.

1352
01:01:09.420 --> 01:01:13.260
So it's not like the designer came in and was kind of propping him

1353
01:01:13.260 --> 01:01:15.239
up because the designer knew Doctor Who.

1354
01:01:15.300 --> 01:01:18.960
It just seems to be this perfect storm of a great script, really

1355
01:01:18.960 --> 01:01:22.860
good performances from the regulars, an intriguing villain

1356
01:01:22.860 --> 01:01:25.559
characterisation of someone trying to flirt their way off a planet

1357
01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:26.699
with the doctor.

1358
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:29.280
And yeah, Ron Jones really rises to that.

1359
01:01:29.340 --> 01:01:31.920
So did he bring something to the era?

1360
01:01:31.980 --> 01:01:34.139
I'm not certain that he did.

1361
01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:36.780
Because his 1st 2 stories were lacklustre at best.

1362
01:01:36.840 --> 01:01:41.940
But for some reason, he really steps up his game with Frontios, and

1363
01:01:41.940 --> 01:01:44.099
it's part of the reason it ends up on my list.

1364
01:01:44.940 --> 01:01:48.300
I think maybe that description of the perfect storm is a good

1365
01:01:48.300 --> 01:01:51.239
analogy for the Davis and era because when things were right, they

1366
01:01:51.239 --> 01:01:51.960
were right.

1367
01:01:52.019 --> 01:01:56.940
And when they were wrong, Richard.

1368
01:01:57.300 --> 01:02:01.380
It's an interesting there weren't enough Sheila's, really.

1369
01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:04.559
I mean, Barbara Clegg and got together with as a writer and got

1370
01:02:04.559 --> 01:02:07.980
together with our Fifi and it all worked really, really nicely.

1371
01:02:08.039 --> 01:02:10.739
And Mary Ridge had a horrible time on terminus.

1372
01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:12.000
She did, didn't she?

1373
01:02:12.059 --> 01:02:14.519
everybody, but she was really copying some abuse.

1374
01:02:14.579 --> 01:02:17.760
I think you can see with the direction just how fraught the time

1375
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:21.960
was and that just how tight these things were.

1376
01:02:22.019 --> 01:02:24.360
It's extraordinary that they got anything into the can.

1377
01:02:24.420 --> 01:02:25.619
You've mentioned everyone.

1378
01:02:25.679 --> 01:02:27.960
I think Graham Harper just shines, obviously.

1379
01:02:28.019 --> 01:02:30.960
But again, my favourite stories are probably there because the

1380
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:32.039
direction is so good.

1381
01:02:32.099 --> 01:02:34.860
Who directed a Black Auckland, because that's actually really

1382
01:02:34.860 --> 01:02:35.639
nicely done.

1383
01:02:35.699 --> 01:02:37.920
Come to think of it, no, it was Ron Jones.

1384
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:38.880
And I was wrong.

1385
01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:40.320
So Time Flight was your second.

1386
01:02:40.380 --> 01:02:43.739
So it looks like like a lot of the BBC directors of the period.

1387
01:02:43.800 --> 01:02:45.300
He was really good at period drama.

1388
01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:49.199
We've always finished a question looking forward to the next year

1389
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.559
of Doctor and the next doctor, and I usually phrase it, you know

1390
01:02:52.559 --> 01:02:55.380
what do you hope to discover or what are your feelings going into

1391
01:02:55.380 --> 01:02:55.679
it?

1392
01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:58.619
Any thoughts, comments as we're about to embark on?

1393
01:02:58.619 --> 01:03:00.360
Probably the most controversial era of the show.

1394
01:03:00.420 --> 01:03:04.019
I think I'm expecting not to enjoy myself.

1395
01:03:04.019 --> 01:03:12.179
And I think the reason is largely down to say would, and I think

1396
01:03:12.179 --> 01:03:18.300
the level of cynicism that he's starting to display is now going

1397
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:22.860
to be compounded with his disaffection with the program, his

1398
01:03:22.860 --> 01:03:27.360
hostility towards the leading man, and the producer, and then

1399
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:32.099
eventually the new companion, and I think that there's going to be

1400
01:03:32.099 --> 01:03:35.639
a giant train wreck and that that train wreck is going to well and

1401
01:03:35.639 --> 01:03:37.139
truly make it onto screen.

1402
01:03:37.199 --> 01:03:43.619
And I also think that we are going to have a Doctor Who is flawed

1403
01:03:43.619 --> 01:03:48.719
in many ways, not because of Colin Baker, but because of the way

1404
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:49.800
he's conceived.

1405
01:03:49.860 --> 01:03:57.239
And so I actually don't expect to find a good story in the next

1406
01:03:57.239 --> 01:03:57.719
era.

1407
01:03:57.840 --> 01:03:58.980
Okay.

1408
01:03:59.460 --> 01:04:04.980
I'm actually looking forward to having the character model of the

1409
01:04:04.980 --> 01:04:06.300
doctor with one companion.

1410
01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:09.840
Again, because it's been a long, long time.

1411
01:04:09.900 --> 01:04:13.079
It's been since Leila at the beginning of season 15.

1412
01:04:13.380 --> 01:04:17.639
Because ever since then we've had 2 or more companions.

1413
01:04:17.699 --> 01:04:21.840
So that is mainly what I'm looking forward to.

1414
01:04:21.900 --> 01:04:28.260
My concern is that it will affect the dynamic too much because

1415
01:04:28.260 --> 01:04:31.199
Tegan and Turlo always had each other to talk to when the doctor

1416
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:33.360
was being irritating.

1417
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:38.820
And Colin Baker's doctor, I wouldn't describe as irritating from

1418
01:04:38.820 --> 01:04:39.780
what I remember of him.

1419
01:04:39.840 --> 01:04:46.260
But certainly he is a big personality, and that can go one of 2

1420
01:04:46.260 --> 01:04:46.679
ways.

1421
01:04:46.739 --> 01:04:49.619
And I think at the beginning of his era, it's going to go in the

1422
01:04:49.619 --> 01:04:53.039
wrong direction for the character of Perry, and she's not going to

1423
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:56.820
assert herself as well as she has in her 1st 2 stories.

1424
01:04:56.820 --> 01:05:00.420
Even in Andrazani, when, as you were saying, Nathan last week, she

1425
01:05:00.420 --> 01:05:02.099
has a lot of agency robbed from her.

1426
01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:06.239
When she is talking to other characters, she doesn't lose any of

1427
01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:08.280
her determination.

1428
01:05:08.340 --> 01:05:11.579
There's that one where the doctor finally comes back to her and

1429
01:05:11.579 --> 01:05:13.679
she says, hello, doctor, goodbye, doctor.

1430
01:05:13.739 --> 01:05:17.519
You know, it's not him saying to her, oh, you're not going to make

1431
01:05:17.519 --> 01:05:17.699
it.

1432
01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:19.260
It's her saying no, I'm not going to make it.

1433
01:05:19.320 --> 01:05:23.039
It's a darkly comic moment, but it's still her being in control.

1434
01:05:23.099 --> 01:05:27.480
And having already watched the twin dilemma for next week, there

1435
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:31.139
are still moments of that, but it's interspersed with some really

1436
01:05:31.139 --> 01:05:32.280
quite unpleasant stuff.

1437
01:05:32.340 --> 01:05:36.420
But I think it gets better as the era goes on and they start to

1438
01:05:36.420 --> 01:05:38.099
get the balance right.

1439
01:05:38.159 --> 01:05:38.940
That's from memory.

1440
01:05:39.059 --> 01:05:42.780
Yeah, I'm looking forward to having one companion back again, but

1441
01:05:42.780 --> 01:05:44.699
I'm worried that they've forgotten how to do it.

1442
01:05:45.000 --> 01:05:47.579
Richard.

1443
01:05:47.639 --> 01:05:48.300
Golly.

1444
01:05:49.860 --> 01:05:55.500
Well, I was mostly losing an ill-chosen pump on the IRF Orion's

1445
01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:58.139
foggy fields for most of Collins.

1446
01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:01.500
I stopped watching as a young person and came back when Sylvester

1447
01:06:01.500 --> 01:06:04.199
was there, so it'll be very interesting to see where we all end up

1448
01:06:04.199 --> 01:06:09.179
but I have watched next week's twin dilemma and I watched in a

1449
01:06:09.179 --> 01:06:10.860
very different way than the rest of you.

1450
01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:14.940
I watched it before Andrew Zani, and I watched it in black and

1451
01:06:14.940 --> 01:06:16.800
white and in reverse, so it had a happy ending.

1452
01:06:16.860 --> 01:06:23.159
But no, my opinions are somewhat reinstated like that.

1453
01:06:23.219 --> 01:06:26.280
And also because the big finish audios I've listened to for so

1454
01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:29.639
long and Colin has become someone I really like as the doctors.

1455
01:06:29.699 --> 01:06:31.920
So it's going to be an interesting journey.

1456
01:06:31.980 --> 01:06:32.460
Yeah.

1457
01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:34.079
I look forward to hearing you all.

1458
01:06:34.139 --> 01:06:35.579
Tackle it.

1459
01:06:36.300 --> 01:06:42.179
I guess for me, because I really disliked Peter as a child and I

1460
01:06:42.179 --> 01:06:43.139
really loved Colin.

1461
01:06:43.199 --> 01:06:47.579
My biggest fear is that I'm going to be far more critical.

1462
01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:52.559
I'm going to see a lot more flaws in what's going on and I really

1463
01:06:52.559 --> 01:06:57.360
don't want that because I just feel that over the years, fandom

1464
01:06:57.360 --> 01:07:01.860
has, you know, had that opportunity to really just skewer.

1465
01:07:01.920 --> 01:07:05.159
Yeah, it's too easy to kill just trees to kill.

1466
01:07:05.219 --> 01:07:08.940
So I guess going in is that, you know, and I'm sure I will be

1467
01:07:08.940 --> 01:07:12.840
emitting the flaws, but I'm really going to be looking for what I

1468
01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:15.300
consider the positives and things that I enjoy so that hopefully

1469
01:07:15.300 --> 01:07:18.000
some of you out there might be able to see things slightly

1470
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:18.300
differently.

1471
01:07:18.360 --> 01:07:20.579
It's fascinating, isn't it?

1472
01:07:20.639 --> 01:07:24.119
Because this is around the time where fans started getting more

1473
01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:26.639
vocal and complaining about how the show isn't as good as it used

1474
01:07:26.639 --> 01:07:26.940
to be.

1475
01:07:27.000 --> 01:07:31.260
And of course, JNT employed the phrase, the memory cheats.

1476
01:07:31.320 --> 01:07:34.860
Like you, Todd, I didn't like Peter Davidson's doctor of the job.

1477
01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:38.760
But I loved Colin's doctor, possibly because, and this is

1478
01:07:38.760 --> 01:07:41.519
oversimplifying it slightly, but there was more sound and more

1479
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:45.300
light and more colour and more of a performance to latch onto and

1480
01:07:45.300 --> 01:07:46.619
identify with.

1481
01:07:46.679 --> 01:07:50.940
And in a way, he is quite childlike because he can be erratic and

1482
01:07:50.940 --> 01:07:53.219
ruled by his emotions.

1483
01:07:53.280 --> 01:07:56.039
So perhaps that's why I liked him so much, but am I going to find

1484
01:07:56.039 --> 01:07:56.699
the same thing?

1485
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:00.420
Am I someone who agreed with the idea the memory cheats and I'm

1486
01:08:00.420 --> 01:08:02.340
going to find, yeah, your memory has cheated.

1487
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:05.639
Well, I guess we'll discuss more on that next week.

1488
01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:08.760
But here we are at the end of the Davis Nera.

1489
01:08:08.820 --> 01:08:13.019
I think, as I've said previously, I really have liked Peter so

1490
01:08:13.019 --> 01:08:14.099
much more this time round.

1491
01:08:14.099 --> 01:08:17.880
And what he has brought to the program, you know, the show has

1492
01:08:17.880 --> 01:08:18.300
survived.

1493
01:08:18.359 --> 01:08:20.100
They didn't think it was going to survive.

1494
01:08:20.159 --> 01:08:25.380
Tom, and, you know, his performance leading up to this

1495
01:08:25.380 --> 01:08:28.859
regeneration this year has really been as good as any of his

1496
01:08:28.859 --> 01:08:29.399
predecessors.

1497
01:08:29.460 --> 01:08:33.060
Would you have liked another season with Nicola and Pete?

1498
01:08:33.180 --> 01:08:34.739
Look, that's speculation.

1499
01:08:34.800 --> 01:08:38.100
I think if he had decided to stay this season would have been

1500
01:08:38.100 --> 01:08:40.619
different, you know, and there would have been a different energy

1501
01:08:40.619 --> 01:08:41.100
about it.

1502
01:08:41.159 --> 01:08:45.119
So I can't really say one way or another, you know, Mark may have

1503
01:08:45.119 --> 01:08:48.119
decided to stay on, that might have the way the stories are

1504
01:08:48.119 --> 01:08:51.300
written, having to have people in and out of stories like would he

1505
01:08:51.300 --> 01:08:54.899
can have left in the Dalek story, would they have written Perry in

1506
01:08:54.899 --> 01:08:57.300
the same story as Mark's going, like, you know, all those things

1507
01:08:57.300 --> 01:08:58.140
would have changed things.

1508
01:08:58.199 --> 01:09:01.800
So one way or another, maybe one more story at least, just to have

1509
01:09:01.800 --> 01:09:02.760
a bit more, but...

1510
01:09:02.760 --> 01:09:03.420
I would have liked that.

1511
01:09:03.479 --> 01:09:05.399
But if you look at Doctor Who, if you look at all the

1512
01:09:05.399 --> 01:09:09.000
regenerations, besides Sarah Jane, everybody else is literally in

1513
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:11.100
like a story or 2 before.

1514
01:09:11.159 --> 01:09:12.960
And so, I mean, it's a great question.

1515
01:09:13.199 --> 01:09:17.520
I still feel if he had done one more year, I still think the show

1516
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:18.779
would have been axed.

1517
01:09:18.840 --> 01:09:19.140
Really?

1518
01:09:19.199 --> 01:09:19.920
Interesting.

1519
01:09:19.979 --> 01:09:23.760
Michael Grade was there and he was ready. and it would have been

1520
01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:26.760
very easy if he was leaving disabled, don't cast another doctor to

1521
01:09:26.760 --> 01:09:27.239
speak up.

1522
01:09:27.539 --> 01:09:28.199
Yeah, kill them off.

1523
01:09:28.260 --> 01:09:30.119
And that's what I really do feel that would have happened.

1524
01:09:30.180 --> 01:09:30.779
But again, it's all.

1525
01:09:31.199 --> 01:09:33.060
Maybe that's why another reason they were Russian Colin in

1526
01:09:33.060 --> 01:09:33.479
interest.

1527
01:09:33.539 --> 01:09:34.140
I don't know.

1528
01:09:34.199 --> 01:09:40.859
For me, the main feeling of the Davis and era, and I listeners

1529
01:09:40.859 --> 01:09:44.340
will know, I hate to sort of look back on things on a negative

1530
01:09:44.340 --> 01:09:44.699
note.

1531
01:09:44.760 --> 01:09:45.899
I hate to hate.

1532
01:09:45.960 --> 01:09:49.979
But the biggest feeling that for me that comes out of the Davis

1533
01:09:49.979 --> 01:09:51.840
scenario is one of missed opportunity.

1534
01:09:52.500 --> 01:09:54.899
Peter is a brilliant actor.

1535
01:09:54.960 --> 01:09:58.800
And I think about half the time he got material that was worthy of

1536
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:02.159
him, and I think the same goes for Janet and Mark and Sarah, and

1537
01:10:02.159 --> 01:10:05.039
even Matthew Walterhouse, who was much maligned.

1538
01:10:05.100 --> 01:10:07.859
Yeah, it's just an era of missed opportunity.

1539
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:12.119
If the same care had been put into everything as was put into the

1540
01:10:12.119 --> 01:10:16.380
1st half of his 1st season and the last half of his last season.

1541
01:10:16.439 --> 01:10:19.859
And really there's no reason it couldn't have been, then I think

1542
01:10:19.859 --> 01:10:24.960
this era would be, it's still remembered fondly by many, many

1543
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:28.619
people, but I reckon we wouldn't even be discussing, is this a

1544
01:10:28.619 --> 01:10:28.979
classic?

1545
01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:30.119
It just would be a classic.

1546
01:10:51.239 --> 01:10:54.479
So, we bid farewell to Peter Davison until our inevitable time

1547
01:10:54.479 --> 01:10:56.819
crash podcast in the year 2122.

1548
01:10:57.060 --> 01:11:00.840
Please come back next week as we embark on the Colin Baker era

1549
01:11:00.840 --> 01:11:02.460
with the twin dilemma.

1550
01:11:02.520 --> 01:11:04.979
You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight

1551
01:11:04.979 --> 01:11:08.340
through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on

1552
01:11:08.340 --> 01:11:08.760
Twitter.

1553
01:11:08.760 --> 01:11:11.279
Over on Bondfinger.

1554
01:11:11.340 --> 01:11:15.239
We've recently bid farewell to Sir Roger Moore as James Bond in a

1555
01:11:15.239 --> 01:11:18.300
View to a Kill, and we have all preceding Bond films, including

1556
01:11:18.300 --> 01:11:22.380
the unofficial Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again, and

1557
01:11:22.380 --> 01:11:23.220
really they should have done.

1558
01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:27.539
That's on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes, and

1559
01:11:27.539 --> 01:11:29.520
Bondfinger on Twitter.

1560
01:11:29.579 --> 01:11:32.819
Until next week, may none of your celery turn purple.

1561
01:11:32.880 --> 01:11:34.560
Thank you very much for listening and good night and thank you

1562
01:11:34.560 --> 01:11:34.739
Peter.

1563
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:35.640
Good night.

1564
01:11:35.699 --> 01:11:36.539
See you soon.

1565
01:11:36.720 --> 01:11:41.159
I want you to ask...

1566
01:11:45.119 --> 01:11:47.039
Oh, Kenneth.

1567
01:11:47.579 --> 01:11:51.300
That was Flight to Entirety, starring Todd Building, Nathan

1568
01:11:51.300 --> 01:11:53.279
Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

1569
01:11:53.340 --> 01:11:55.439
Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

1570
01:11:55.500 --> 01:11:58.859
This episode, material that was worthy of him, was recorded on the

1571
01:11:58.859 --> 01:12:00.479
28th of December 2016.

1572
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:03.779
The next episode will be released on the 22nd of January.

1573
01:12:05.340 --> 01:12:09.840
Fans of the Peter Davis and era will enjoy his new autobiography

1574
01:12:09.840 --> 01:12:11.699
is their life outside the box.

1575
01:12:11.760 --> 01:12:15.420
It's a great read, even though inexplicably, it fails to mention

1576
01:12:15.420 --> 01:12:15.960
us at all.

1577
01:12:17.640 --> 01:12:19.500
Oh gosh.

1578
01:12:20.699 --> 01:12:27.659
Chancellor, Flavia, Chancellor, sorry, Thalia, and the couch guy.

1579
01:12:28.619 --> 01:12:30.300
Do you know that other?

1580
01:12:30.300 --> 01:12:32.760
one of these strange gods they worshipped?

1581
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:35.279
Not another one at all we're talking about.

1582
01:12:36.119 --> 01:12:38.039
Thank you, Kenneth.

1583
01:12:38.100 --> 01:12:39.539
So who's the couch guy?

1584
01:12:39.600 --> 01:12:41.640
Well, we're doing Zorak.

1585
01:12:41.640 --> 01:12:45.659
We're doing Zorak, the one that gets animized that you don't see

1586
01:12:45.659 --> 01:12:46.800
in the 5 doctors.

1587
01:12:46.859 --> 01:12:48.420
So Flavia...

1588
01:12:48.479 --> 01:12:50.039
But Flavia is Else with Grey.

1589
01:12:50.100 --> 01:12:52.260
So she's mother...

1590
01:12:52.260 --> 01:12:53.760
Thalia is also...

1591
01:12:53.819 --> 01:12:54.479
Let me change it.

1592
01:12:54.539 --> 01:12:57.300
I was going to say, can I just say that the prospect of editing

1593
01:12:57.300 --> 01:13:00.060
all of that is terrifying.

1594
01:13:00.119 --> 01:13:01.020
Okay, we start again.

1595
01:13:01.020 --> 01:13:03.180
As long as we keep...

1596
01:13:03.239 --> 01:13:05.100
Oh, no, because the carpet thing was really good.

1597
01:13:05.159 --> 01:13:05.640
Okay.

1598
01:13:05.699 --> 01:13:06.539
Tesla.

1599
01:13:06.539 --> 01:13:07.560
Flavia?

1600
01:13:07.619 --> 01:13:08.579
Yes.

1601
01:13:08.640 --> 01:13:11.340
Thalia and Beryl Reed.

1602
01:13:12.300 --> 01:13:14.340
Okay, quick question.

1603
01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:16.859
Beryl Reed or Captain Briggs.

1604
01:13:16.920 --> 01:13:17.760
Sorry, Captain Briggs.

1605
01:13:17.819 --> 01:13:19.260
Yes, read choice.