Carrying an Offensive Commentary

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who commentary podcast whose knives are sterilised before sacrifices. I'm Brendan. I'm Nathan I'm Todd. I'm James. James, I thought I told you that you were allowed to be on the podcast. Richard cannot join us today. He has family commitment. So he has nominated James in his stead. So James finally gets to be on an episode of Flight through Entirety, where he's not playing the master. Oh, are you not playing the master? And that's the only reason I was prepared to let you in the room. No, I am actually going to play the master. Okay, great. Fans of the podcast may have also noted this week that Big Finish have announced the Time Incorporated Masterbox set, which will feature James in adventures based in and around the Matrix after Time Incorporated. So today we are watching The Stones of Blood, which was nominated by Richard and Todd as a story. Um, So yes, your code word, uh, we're currently sitting on the DVD menu of um, the key to time, box set edition of The Stones of Blood, your code word will be Diploss. So, uh, the next time. Sorry. The next time you hear me say that word, I would like you to press play. Are you ready, dear listener? Diplos. And we're off. Well this is exciting. I love Mary Tan. I love this. No, you don't, tonsure. you don't. You never stop bad mouthing Mary Tam when you're off mic. Well, yeah, no, because I met her once. Did we all meet, sir? I certainly know. I wasn't at who mentioned too. She was lovely. was far too young. lovely. It is kind of heartbreaking. Let's get it out of the way. It is heartbreaking that she's no longer with us. She really was spectacular. And I think we spent a lot of time praising her ironic detachment and her bravery and having a little sabbatical from acting about you. I love that that crossfade between the Tartars and that. And the segments, yeah. And this very expensive set that we have here. I loved this set as a kid. Like it, it, it, just, it, It got across to me the idea that they can just press a few buttons in the console room and this room can be anything. I'll just love her. is the 1st time, isn't it? It's the 1st time that the companion has been just vastly more competent than the doctor. And I think Tom works that way. The same way that Colin does when he's being silly and incompetent as well, when he gets something wrong. Tom works terrifically well, having both Romanas with him, just because he gets to be the sort of silly anti-establishment one. He doesn't, you know, he's ostensibly in charge, but he gets someone to kind of rebel against as well, and that suits him perfectly, I think. Um, Yeah, now this is our 1st and only story this season set on earth. Yes. I love that shot. It's got footage. We still managed to get space corridors. That's true. And I think, yeah, this would be the 1st story set on Earth since Image of the Fendal. Okay, so we've had 6 consecutive non-earth stories. Oh, it's good to come back too. It does feel very image of the Fendal, doesn't it? Better than that. Oh, well, yes. Yeah, well, I think I think we discussed at the time on the podcast that, you know, there's 2 stories where Graham Williams does the Hinchcliffe thing of menace in the home counties. Or three. I mean, I, you know, does there's horror fang rock counts? I mean, everyone. That's true, I suppose, but that is semi-historical as well. Whereas Imogen, this are, um, present day, but I suppose, you know um, Pyramids of Mars was the historical. People are, people always claim horror of fang rock for Philip Hinchcliffe on the grounds that they can't believe that Graham Williams would produce a good story. I mean, I really disagree with that. I think that's terrible. And I think both image of the Fendal, which is not totally successful, and this story, do Hinchcliffe things more interestingly than weekly. and with less sort of dark sort of attitudes and menacing of the companion in a horrific way. And they have ladies in them as well. Yes, more than one lady. More than one lady. Here's one lady. Martha. Martha. At least one guest lady. Not two. This one has three, doesn't it? Yeah, so it's got Martha and later we'll have, of course, Professor Romilio Rumford and her nipples. And her sausage sandwich. And amphibian Fay. Now, when I was a kid, this is the scene my VHS copy cut in on exactly this shot of the door. So you thought that's where the toy started? Well, yeah, it meant until literally until I bought the American DVD set because I'll get into the DVD release in a moment. Literally when I bought the American DVD said in 2003, that was the 1st time I saw those opening scenes. love her outfit. I do too. and her shoes. I love those shoes. It's actually really, it's actually really quite timeless. And like, you know, it doesn't look that sort of 70s. I mean, the... They heard disco stew. I forgot about that. I want that hat. It's very Burberry, isn't it? Oh, it is a burberry hat, isn't it? Where? The Black Garden or something? Yeah, I think here, because does she know about the Black Guardian at this point? No, no, this is where she finds out because she thinks she was sent by the president. And this is literally the scene where the doctor's explaining that it wasn't the president, who was the white guardian who sent you. And I think it is about time that we reestablished the premise of the season as well. Yeah, well, this is mid-season now, so it's a good time to remind us. And also of note, this is the 100th Doctor Who story. They were going to take a cake out of that fridge. Yeah, yeah. I wish the doctor... There's that cut scene, isn't there? from the BBC VG tapes? Well, I don't think they ever shot it. Oh, they did. Okay, because I get, um, the story Daryl Blake tells is they ordered the cake, um, and then didn't get, didn't get to shoot the scene, so everyone just had cake. Hooray. But perhaps it was short. In a prescient march to flight through entirety. Yeah, that's right. We're having crisps today in olives rather than cake. And I bought, I bought a cake. Oh, we did have carrot cake. Yes, sorry. It was ogre themed carrot cake, actually, for those of you at home. Turn to ashes in your mouth. And last week when we talked about Dragonfire, of course, Richard made us a lovely lemon poppy seed and gin cake. Oh, that was so terrific. Such gin. So, so cream. It was a good cake print. 13 out of 10. Yeah. Would eat again. And of course, you know, the benefit of having this limbo set is you know, you just focus on these 2 completely. Ah, Kane. See, I bought it. I bought it as this is a Noll space. Yeah, as a kid. Like I didn't go, oh, they went out of money. Like they've just hung some black drapes in a studio. No, it's very well done. It's very well done. And yeah, and then we've got this shot of them framed in the door which... doesn't look like it's in 4 by 3. No, it looks like it's someone shooting portrait on their iPhone. Damn it. those people. Can you not do that? Have you people never seen a television screen or a cinema screen? Stop shooting video in portrait, please. Okay, I work in reality TV. And so we have contestants auditioning. for shooting their own stuff. They're given several pages worth of literature saying don't shoot in portrait, at least one in 10. I don't think they understand what a portrait is. Oh, another bit of comedy. love this. Yes. Back when Doctor Who was fun. Yeah. I loved that. See, if the doctor had kept like a secret like that from the companion, you know, the whole, it wasn't the president was white garden thing, but like, what is it, 12 episodes now or 8 episodes? 12 episodes? Um, That would have been a huge thing, you know, it would have been a betrayal of trust in the new series. Love the way he throws that umbrella away. Little bug. Actually, no, you're right, James. It is 8 episodes because this is the 3rd story. Oh, and were they all 4 parties? Until until... Except for Armadillo, what? So, yeah. The armadillo faction. Yes. Oh, the K1 robots been through here. Can I just say that, you know, how fabulous is someone that can just put the heel of their shoe into a ditch like this and work out the massive of a creature or whatever? Do you think it's a reference? Do you remember the dandelion in robot where the doctor works out? How much? Because of how crushed the dandelion is. So she's like a version of the doctor who's just vastly more glamorous. Yeah, yeah. And you know, she's got her her tracer slash sonic screwdriver. Yeah. I love these these long shots of the circle and coming to it. I think by this time they had stopped running a wire up Mary Tam's leg and down her arm to light up the tracer. Because you're not gonna see the light on location. Um, because that's what she said about Ribos operation. You know, there was this little man running around after her and taping things onto her neck and, you know, uninsulated wires so they were getting hot. Why didn't they have batteries, for God's sake, in 1970. And also uninsulated what? tried to kill her. Well, sorry, you know, insulated from electricity, but not insulated from heat. Just like mentioning a bear copper Wyatt running down her arm. Spark, Spark. Now, the director Daryl Blake, of course, takes the, it takes the very wise decision here to, um, uh, fill, to shoot everything on video. So the exteriors are done on video, the internals, the studios are done on video as well because he hated the typical look of film outside and video inside and you get a visually jarring contrast switching between the two, which is tradition for Doctor Who. And in fact, in this season, in Androids of Tara, that's what they do. Yeah, yeah, you get the film. Here she is. Until, until, um, Season 23, when it became traditional to use video everywhere, it was just this robot... and... experiment where everything was done on video. I think I think it actually lends quite a sort of Ethereal otherworldly quality to the image, because the way the video picks up the brightness of the sky. I think it looks cheaper, and I think it looks more like children's television, and I think it's a shame. I don't like the jarring thing as well because it makes it really obvious when we're in the studio and when we aren't. And here, because you've got nighttime scenes in the circle that are shot in the studio, I think, you know, I have to say, those are pretty convincing, those nighttime scenes. And only because the daytime scenes are on videotape. If they weren't, you would see that, that jarring thing. And I always, this stuff here, I always think, looks like, um, it's soft focus on purpose for all the cast. I don't know why. I always thought that as a kid. Well, I think it's, I think it's what James said. I think it's to give it an ethereal quality and it looks to me like a filter or lens on the camera because the colours are bleeding. Oh my god. Oh, that's amazing look from Tom. God, he looks older than in leisure hive. She's so funny delivering this. Like just the way that she does it. It's like she's reaching into her memory to struggle to remember the line. You could actually see it visibly coming to the service. Yeah, yeah. She's such, such a good actress. And she had such an amazingly fun time working on this show. You know, famously, she saw John Leeson wander around taking photos. So gave her, gave him her old Lika camera from 1930 or something like that. Um, but, A, um, a friend of the podcast, and I cannot remember who now, so I do apologise. Discovered that a Christopher Isherwood novel is dedicated to Beatrix Lehman and her husband. Wow. I don't know which one. I can't remember that. Which husband? I don't know. Beatrix Lim, the 1st openly lesbian at this time. She had actually come out at this time, hadn't she? Oh, I didn't realise that. Maybe it's not her husband. Well, no, no, no. I think she was married earlier on, but by this point it was in a relationship with a woman. Is she the 1st openly lesbian guest cast member? I don't. I didn't even know she was. We had a number of years where they weren't very many... I could be completely wrong, but I always thought she was lesbian. Um, I don't know. Susan Engel is just wonderful here in that pink vision and she's just so charming, too suave. you know, you just know there's something not quite right straight away, you know, you can't quite put your finger on it. I think it's fabulous. You've got 3 wonderful women characters here with the doctor and you just don't see that. No. It's it's so refreshing. It is one of my favourite classic series stories probably because of the strength of female guest cast. I just love Ramana with her shoes. So, so Nathan, you're going to the UK next, aren't you? Yes. You should go to the national portrait gallery because there are 12 portraits of Beatrix Lehman in the national portrait gallery. But they probably went to, you take photos of them. Not even selfies with them. wouldn't that be great? Hanging with Professor Rumford. I would like a hat like that. Typical man. Let's come back to my house with some sausage sandwiches. And a little bit something more. But she's still a bit less lazy than Juno Watt to face from canine and company. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, the poor man's Susan Engel. Correct. Yeah, there is something terribly light and fun about this, isn't there? Does any, you know, any story with Tommy gomping around the countryside. And, you know, there's very few people you can describe as yomping but I think Tom Baker is definitely one of them. Um, Here we are. In Christopher Ashwood's diaries, Issuwood describes meeting Mick Jagger, the Australian outback, where he was filming Ned Kelly. Mick Jagger, very pale, quiet, good tempered, full of fun, ugly beautiful, a bit like Beatrix Lehman. I think Beatrix Leyman is more beautiful, ugly, isn't she? Well, I actually think that probably Mick Jagger would be indistinguishable from Beatrix Lehman, like in a police lineup by this stage. Despite the fact he's a lot younger. Probably not by now. No, no, no, no. I meant back then. Okay. Yeah, so here we are in the studio. Is he about to put out this rather poorly? Like, you know, when he's put the lid on it, sort of... Yeah, it's almost like he's an actor who doesn't want to burn his hand off. Caliak. Caliak. Don't you know? And that's about as much as we can get away with without being sued by apples. Oh, sorry. So these 2 are terrible, aren't they? Oh, I think he's a bit over the top, but I really like her. No, I'm not going to leave you. Sorry, I'm sure that one of the worst decisions made by a supporting character in the history of the show. It's like, no, really you can. I really like this shot. Look at that, isn't that spectacular? That gate just looks terrific. The, um, that reminds me, like, I always, I always thought this scene was in, um, image of Fendal. I always matched the 2 of them together. Is there another scene in image of the pendal with him walking down the street? Like past a wall. Yes, yes, when he's on his way to the priory. Is this the same place as Seeds of Doom? Like, like, that just reminds me of them going inside. I'm being reminded of it as well. Like all of them have the big old Gothic house. It's a kind of, it's a sort of Avengers style thing. It's a true? Yeah, yeah. It is definitely an Avengers trope, like possibly the easiest to find example of it is one of the very early colour episodes from Venus with Love, which features John Pertwee as an old, as an old army man, and he's recording his memoirs, and he's surrounded by these record players to play the sound effects, but he's in a big country house. Right, yeah. That's not the only one that pert is in. Is he in the hidden tiger or did I dream that? No, no, he's not in the hidden tiger. Ronny Barker's in the Hidden Tiger. Really? Yeah. But no, Pertwi's only in one. Okay. And, um, he is the only doctor who appears in an Avengers episode. Doesn't dr never appear? No. Um, Anika Wills? is into Avengers episodes? Um, But I think that's also it for Doctor Who companions. It's an interesting shot, this one, because when I watch it and when I watch as a kid, Your eye is drawn to those 3 missing portraits, which of course will come into play later. It's actually quite good, isn't it? I quite like the window as well. It's very rare to have windows in shot and they don't look terrible. Now, I'm going to ask James directly because I have a feeling Nathan and Todd, you may not remember it. James, do you remember the ghosts of Motley Hall? Yes. Very vaguely. Very vaguely. That's the thing. As a kid, these Doctor Who stories in old houses reminded me of that. It was this old house haunted by all these ghosts. It was kind of like a British version of Casper because they were friendly ghosts and they, um, I think the family who lived there were trying to sell the house and the kid didn't want to move, so the ghosts helped the kid. Was it Cosgrove Hall series? I think it was, but live action. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like it kind of reminds me of things like Billy Webb. Do you remember Billy Webb? Terrible, terrible kids TV show from the late 80s, early 90s. That a child with a watch that could turn back time. Oh, right. Bit like Hermione. Yes, yes. I'm surprised they didn't sue Shay K. Rowling. What, like go back in time using the watch and then sue J.K Rowling. Now, I just, no, because it was made before JK. I do Potter. I do like the way Mr. DeFreece just drops in doctor into the conversation, having actually never been introduced to the doctor. Because the raven told him. Is it a crow? Raven. same thing. That's what I... It used to really get to me as it's like when I watched this as a kid, like, you know, that's you can't have that, but now I think it's just a bit of fun. It's nice. I think they are crows because Vivian identifies them as crows shortly, I think. Um, And just, you know, the way this shot is composed as well, just then you had, Well, here, you've got a really strong triangle in the frame of the 3 women and they're in a similar colour palette. They're all wearing shades of pink. Um, Professor Rumford under her, under her coat, but it ties them together and kind of emphasises how strong this story is for women characters. Apart from DeFreece's lover. That's true I suppose, yeah. But, you know, at the moment, we're meant to believe that Professor Romford and Vivian Faye are on the doctor and Romana's side and the other side is DeFries and Marfa. Yeah. It is a big fake out, this story, isn't it? I mean, I guess we'll talk more about it. As the best Doctor Who stories are, really. Yeah. Well, they trained those birds, like the shots that they're doing? They went to Rada, darling. How do you know that Crow went to Rada? He tells you. I'm just interested. Welcome to the podcast. It just looks like, you know what I mean? They're on the stones and that sort of thing. Do they just take advantages of them? know. Well, um, crows and ravens are very intelligent birds. So they're easier to train than, say, pigeons or parrots. You don't think they stapled them to the stones. No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, that being said, parrots are very intelligent as well, but I think crows are a bit more wilful. There's been all these studies done where crows will be able to figure out, for instance, you know, if they're given 3 switches which each give them a different amount of seed. It only takes them about 5 minutes to figure out which switch gives them the most amount of seed. And just go straight for that. Yeah, a crow is actually intelligent enough to have script edited Doctor Who for 5 years. you know that? At FCE Hoo Fax. What, between 1981 and 1986? Oh, okay. Someone's smoking. Why is he smoking? Well, this is evil. Actually, now we can say it was because he's evil back then it's just like, eh, no, that's what people did. It doesn't happen very often in Doctor Who. No, that's true. And generally, it's evil or suspicious looking characters that do it as well. Although those people in Resurrection of the Daleks are smoking just because I think, say you would think it's good. Like sand in uncomfortable places. The where, the raven, all the crowd. Oh, that's a nice thing. So it's a raven or a crow. It is. So, um, the exterior location we were talking about earlier is uh the Reid Business School in um, in uh, Little Compton Warwickshire. Was it even then? Oh, that's what it was then, yes. And whack. Here we go. Probably being converted into a stately home or something now. I think I think keeping focus on the face is a good thing. blood is warm. I know what to do. You see, here, you see, so, so, the evil, uh, uh, big in phase had to come back up to the house just for that one. to nip in, be evil then that changed, go back, prepare some sausage sandwiches. Yes. I went I went to outpost-gunner for once and somebody was walking around in a costume like that. Like was that good? Oh, you mean Gallifrey won? Oh, sorry, app was going. What am I saying? Can I pray one, yes? the same thing. Sorry. Oh, a man is going for a stroll. Now, this is this is the moment, of course, where Tom refused to appear physically because he didn't want the doctor to be a symbol of danger for children, which I kind of understand. And as a child, this, that made, that made the scene all the freakier because I got that Romana could see something I couldn't see. Did you? I didn't. No. I had no idea what was going on. Yeah, it renders this scene incomprehensible. And it is almost certainly because just Tom was being a dick. and refusing to cooperate because he was quite happy to lunge at Princess Strella's android with a big sword, you know, you know the following story. That's true. That is true. I read it in the same way as Brendan. I just didn't get it. It was only, as I got older, that I worked out, but now Mary Thames, just seeing the script for timelash. And that drop was about a metre. She's not a great screamer. No, but that's good. we want to. to be a good screamer. Yeah, see, in 2 stories time in Power of Crawl. She's going to give a traditional Doctor Who scream of just, I'm going to hit a musical note. Whereas that was a guttural, I'm about to die square. That's a realistic scream. It's like when the very rare occasions where Nissa screams, you know, it's a proper from the diaphragm. I'm actually terrified. Yeah. Well, it's a scream in context. It's not just a scream because I'm a doctor who go and I have to scream. It's a scream because she's actually scared. It's believable. But I agree with you, Todd, in that the scream and the power of Kroll that she does at the end of episode one is one of the worst screams ever in Doctor. Mary's not a screamer. She's no. Well, that's the point of her. You know, it... That's the end of the power of crawl. All right, Luke, how are we watching about, of course? Little, do you know that that's actually Tom screaming? See, I still, like, in this day and age, they could have got away with, like it was done now, Tom could have been, like, sort of see through or some sort of effect to make it seem. But back then it would he would have physically had to have been there. So I kind of understand that he didn't want to see the doctor doing damage to his companion, but, um, you know, I have to give it to Romana here. She hangs onto this cliff edge, like, you know, there's no tomorrow. If anybody's actually seen, um, the new Wonder Woman movie, it reminds me of a moment in Wonder Woman, where, but I'll just say nothing more. Thank you. not seen it yet. I'm hoping it's a very good film apart from the last 15 minutes. I'm hoping to go see it tomorrow, but it's a battle of wills. I want to see Wonder Woman 1st and Rod wants to see the mummy first. Watch the mummy 1st because then you can build to Wonder Woman because it's actually worth watching. No, no, I don't like this only just now, Martha. Like, you know? No, it was chicken in the 1st episode, you know. She was expressing reservations earlier, wasn't she? I think that that's her one character note is that she's actually like realises this is all really rather silly. Yeah, yeah. She was just in it for the shiny cloaks and now they're trying to cut this guy's throat, you know. Space stewards. The space drugs. It is kind of weird. It's some, you know what? I think it's the same kind of material they use for front tacks your projection. That's what I was thinking You know, when they shine a light into it. So goodness knows why they don't. Oh, the CSA's a great thing. Yeah, and of course, you know, at the same time, this was on as a kid, when I was a kid, postcards from the edge was broadcast on television. So there's that scene where, um, is it Meryl Streep in postcards the Edge of Glen, Meryl Street is hanging off the side of a building, a director calls cut, and she just sort of shrugs and lifts her. So I've always found that scene vaguely comical. That being said, the actual cliffhanger where she falls off is much like Dragonfire last week, one of the moments I could not watch as a kid and I had to leave the room. That's great. For different reasons from Dragonflower. So here is a day for night filming? Well, that's the studio. Oh, I know that, but the shopping... Yes, stay for night. I really like it. It's like dusk. I really like the day for night in this. And they have that establishing shot of it being dusk. It's like, you know, it establishes. It's just after the sun is falling. What are you doing? Well, I just tied myself to a rock. Exactly. Well, that's the thing. She's an academic. all of this. Yes, that's right. How did you manage that, doctor? You know, it, I reckon if Beatrix was still alive. And of course, she was, what, in her 60s here, I think? Possibly 70s. I reckon. Yeah. I reckon if Beatrix was still alive, big finish would have had her back by now to work with Tom. With her own spinoff series. Well, even just with Tom, because, I mean, Tom talks on the commentary that he adored, of course. Yeah, of course. Yes, grit your teeth, Mary. I think I kind of liking that saying, yes, she's worried she's hanging on the cyberclip, but also, oh, this is getting terribly boring. tedious, friend in one that's... She's rather attractive. She's lost on the moor. James has just found a glamour shot of Beryl Reed. I'm guessing from the 40s. Lehman. All our fabulous, older women in Doctor... She looks like Greta Garbo. Oh, she was fantastic, doesn't she? Shoes are important people. So I was just trying to find out what her age was. She died in in July 1979. Only the following year. year after this. Is the last thing? Yeah, maybe he or she would have been about 75 then. You're a genius. So she was 75. I like I do like the way David Fisher uses K9 in his story. like you know, it's not, he's not necessarily with them here, but then he's called into action. Yeah. Even the way that he, I know this is controversial on the podcast but the way that he writes him out of the leisure hive, I actually quite like. Well, also, you have to remember with the leisure hype, that was very heavily rewritten to suit the new production team as well. Who buy? By David Fisher, but also by a patron of the podcast, Christopher Hamilton bit me. Talented man who should have been script editor for a lot longer. Well, we were talking to him about... Yeah, yeah. He said that we should get a Kickstarter happening and raise enough money for him to hop into the TARDIS go back in time and do it. And I'd like to support that. So we'll put a link in the show notes to the Kickstarter page. No, we won't. I think what also helps with the day for night filming here is they try not to show the sky because that's the giveaway in day for night filming. Okay. But yeah, that's what makes it more effective. And getting back to what you were saying, Todd, about the way David Fisher uses K9. I'm laughing because it's always like, let's get on the railway track. He's not getting direction. He's doing a 15 point turn. Here we go. Here we go. And onto the duckboards. We're about to go... It's such a terrible prop. But David Fisher is very conscious to not just to use K9 as a gun. You know, he tracks Romana here. He tracks Romana in the androids of Tara. He's familiar with boats. He knows nothing about tennis. But he does he does know all about hyperspace and how to explain it. I mean, who does understand I Spain? I do, shut up. I'm not giving you a second chance. Oh, I love Romana. There was a rope built into his scarf for the scene. Oh really? Yeah, it's behind the scarf. Because, you know, by this point, the scarf is horribly moth eaten and patched up and what have you, you can pause the DVDs at certain points and he has little tart. Oh, bad, bad, bad. Yeah, shot. Yeah, this is a bad, um, and it's kind of the thing of, and it's it's still the same tracking down um, archive footage. Um, At this point, it would have been even harder. He would have just, Daryl Blake would have just sent him for archive footage of, you know, a twilight skyline. And if this is what they send back to him. That's what he got. That's what he got. You did not have time to then do it, which is why he frames the setting sun behind the actors heads as much as possible to try and disguise it. You can see that he's like trying to use it as little as possible. Yeah, yeah. And of course, it's from this story and several shots of Tom without his scarf that Daypole had their image references. Oh, really? To make their Tom Baker action figure, which is why it doesn't come with a scarf because they weren't sent photos of him with a scarf. And who knew that Tom Baker's doctor wore a scarf? Oh, day poll. And I actually love this... I just love it. I think it's her best hair. Oh, I was about to say, I love her hair down. I have to say, I think my favourite hairstyle for this season is actually from the Armageddon factor. Oh, that's pretty German too. But I love this as a sort of day-to-day outfit. I love the frock. and there's kind of a green petticoat under it which you get a bit of a flash off occasionally. Um, you know, just as a, just as a um, contrast in colour. It's lovely. This is another great scene of comedy. And some fabulous acting there for Mary. Look at her. You can tell exactly what she's thinking. I am... I recently re-listened to the Auntie Matter, which is the 1st Mary Tam, Big Finish Tom story, and it was released posthumously, and in the special features, David Richardson, the producer says, you know, Mary wasn't Welsh. when she was recording these, but she was determined to do the 72 parters. And that's interspersed with a lovely interview from Mary herself talking about how much she loves Doctor Who. She's so good in those audios. those audios are fantastic. I actually don't have that 1st one. I've got all the rest, but I've got to listen to it. See, and this is just wonderful. The framing of all of these actors, the doctor and Romana and canine, and now these two. I think he's doing a great job. He puts, yeah, he puts such thought into his composition of shots which wasn't always a priority for Doctor Who directors because they're working on multicam. for the very small budget. time. Let's just join. What's that, darling? What's that? Actually, that's what I would like to answer that, but I'm not allowed to because there's not supposed to be an innuendo at this podcast. Oh dear, I didn't think of it that way ever. Is that what Vivian was after? Yes. You can use it to shine your shoes. Vivian, not Surfing. Does it pay your potatoes and things? Look, I think it's a sonic potato peeler. So clever. That shot again. Yeah, you can see all their faces, can't you, Todd? Everyone's acting and everyone's reacting. wonderful. But also too descript, like, the doctor knows there's something wrong and he knows that it's not Amelia. Like he suspects Vivian, but without really giving the game away. Yeah, yeah. Come on, girls. I think David Fisher is like an unsung hero of the Williams era. And you know what, especially of women? Like, even the next story, which only has one speaking female character, aside from Romana. Madame Larmia is a really well drawn character and a tragic character. Goddess of mercy. She's not happy. It's not your week. mercy on us. Stop acting. Oh my god. I don't think we agreed with about this, did we, Brandon, but these giant glowing fibreglass turds are ridiculous. I like them. I think they're fantastic. I want I want these to come back. I actually want them to be able to levitate like and actually get into 2nd floors. So I actually do want the ogry back. And to horrifically drain people's life energy. Yeah. If they did come back, I would like them to appear as per David Fisher's original idea, which is they are stones, which then morph into bipedal rock people. Yeah, see that would have been cool, but we're too cheap to do that. Yeah, and, you know, you know what? I think for the extra amount of money it would have cost. This is still effective. You know, and you've got to decide where you're spending the money. I love how he covers canine's eyes, so he doesn't. But it also draws your attention away from that body that's there. Oh, and his blood and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, he's he's really actually quite well contorted himself into what looks like a slightly unnatural angle. Oh, I think it's Zanium. Heaven help us. Yeah, she's got a bit of a temper on her. Like, you know, failer and... It's real Maconite, you know? Yeah, yeah. It just came canine, a helping hand, as you do. Yep, position K9 for the next shot. You know, if there wasn't a recording break there, I do wonder if a stage hand quickly runs in and moves, K died like 2 extra feet. I think it just looks like Harrison Chase's place after one of his really more extravagant parties, don't you? after he's been playing all night in his ring cathedral. Someone ate a cucumber and it just wasn't pretty after that. Next thing you'll be saying, like, you know, we'll see some sort of comedy movie with the dead body and Harrison and his butler will be having to card it around. weekend with DeFreeze. Oh dear. Now, I found I actually found those things really scary. You know, um, as a kid, that's the stones, like, we did. I think it's also the heartbeat sound. Yeah, I think the sound is... Because it's a primeval sound. You know, it's the same reason that most people when they hear a baby crying will feel uneasy and feel distressed because we're genetically hardwired. Yeah, program for it. Yeah. Um, and, you know, so also low sounds. Yes, it sounds like a heartbeat, but it also sounds like an animal growling. Sausage sandwiches. I use that in a Doctor Who charades thing once as an object. It was Vivian face sausage sandwiches. I love this. I love sausage sand. That's what we should have called the podcast. The only thing better than a sausage sandwich is curried sausage. That's so lucky euphemism. It wasn't, it wasn't, and I think during this scene, for sausage sandwiches, we should give a shout out to friend of the podcast who were Pete on Twitter, who is a massive fan of The Stones of Blood. I think it may actually be his favourite Doctor Who story. He's a man of rare taste. Good taste, yeah. He actually has this great, It almost a reaction GIF coming up from this scene where Vivian gives kind of gives Romana side eye about her theories. I'll point it out when we get there, which shot. Um, but yeah, I love the fact that while the doctor's off getting knocked out, it's the 3 women who are working on the mystery. And not talking about him. Yeah, and again, the companion is getting... Oh, except for that. Wonderful line. And 10 maybe 8. But the fact that Romana is investigating, again, which we'll do next week as well, and another David Fisher script is just delightful. What else did he do? He did leisure high. Did he? What did he do the following year? from the pit. See, that's great as well. It's this shot. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, I think I need to make that into a gift. But yeah, so he this is his 1st Doctor Who story. And then he was very quickly asked to write Androids of Tara, which was a replacement script for another story that fell through. Uh, he then he did write a um, a plot outline for what became City of Death. I think he did, I thought he did more than that. I think he actually did a script and then they had to rewrote it without the casino. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he did do a full script. And he did creature from the pit, and then, of course, he did the leisure hive. Which, yeah, was. Yeah, had all the jokes taken out. Yeah. You know, I think, you know, he did do a script for Christopher Bidmead, who then wrote it again. So there was a script he did for Graham Williams, then a version he did for Bidmead and J and T, which changed before it made the screen again. I think Bidmead has actually said that it was a mistake to take all of the jokes or quite so many of the jokes out of Fisher's script. But that's only because it was the 1st one. They were reacting against that. Yeah, you know, even so, it's still got like Leisurehive still has humour in it. I think it's spectacular. like it a lot. Yeah, Paul, Paul love it, Bickford, though, and the BBCs. Understandable policy on... Here we go. Yes, I'll come back to that. Hooray. Oh, yes. Who in America is getting arrested so carrying an offensive weapon for God's sake. What's the 1970s? Well, okay, I was I was talking about a friend of mine before we started recording. She's a lady in my wrestling club and maybe going to the Commonwealth Games. She grew up in Australia and America. And because she has jujitsu training in several other forms of martial arts, If she is tacked in America, And defends herself, she can be countersued for assaulting someone with a dangerous weapon. If you have that kind of training and then the only... She is the dangerous weapon. Yeah, well, actually, you know what? Yes, I have never won. I've never won. pinned her. I have never won a wrestling doubt against her. She is amazing. Now, all of this bits and pieces and shredded paper. Yeah, it's a bit, you know, unconvincing. I was really disturbed by this as a kid because of course I loved K9. Yeah, and so, you know, it's practically canine having his gut spilled out. Oh, I know this where he says, you know, leave me. And then they cannibalise me for spare parts. Yeah, and then they walk away and kind of talk about, you know putting him to sleep and things. Oh, here we go. It'll be all right, listeners, by the way. And you can tell it's the empty prop canine because he's got the yellow tartan collar. Whereas the real canine has the red and green tartan collar. I don't know why they did 2 different ones. If it was just a matter of on the studio floor, we need to make sure we grab the right one. So whenever you see anyone logging canine around, it's usually the yellow one. I like these little... tits they have. Yeah, the little technical stuff, which never sounds stupid. It's never like an 80s style techno babble thing. But I like how they sort of look off the camera to one side and like they're still talking to each other like it's, it's, yes. Tom also seems to be aware in this scene that his hair's getting slightly too long because he's had to push it out of his eyes twice. Mind you, it's not as bad as when Colin Baker gets along. Or is he just doing a hair flip? He's whipping his hair back and forth. There we go again.. So my recent sort of blood tests actually show that I'm actually a little bit low on globulin. So I did explain to the doctor that I wasn't so worried about that because it would make me less vulnerable to it. I agree, it's wrong. They'd go for they'd go for Tom, probably. Maybe we should give you some variety. I'm really unimpressed by these comments. I'm still getting over the Twitter comments from yesterday. Oh, here she is. This is like hilarious. Oh, is that Martha? Oh, it's yeah, yeah, that's Martha and DeFreece. Um, and the script specifies, and you can kind of make it out that um, pretty much their heads are smashed. I was about to say, if you're globally and deficient, does that make you one of the stones of blood and we can't touch you? Yeah, it may in fact be unwise. This is why we've never been allowed to touch Nathan. But I do have that. I do love the fact, James, that, um, like she has to get dressed up in all this paraphernalia just to do her little ceremony. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, just don't know who she is. I have to put this on. Despite the fact that there's no one around. There's only 2 dead people and some oak creeps. But you know what it is? It's the whole Midsomer Murders thing or if you come across someone in a stone circle and they're just dressed in jeans and a t-shirt, you're going to say, what are you doing here? If you come across someone in a stone circle and they're dressed in some ridiculous queen of the mayout. It's a local festival. Of death. It's the festival. the festival of the Bergeracs or something, you know. There is a trope, isn't there, that you go off and you get dressed up in your evil outfit. You know, like Barusa does that in 5 doctors. He goes off, puts his evil gloves on, moves some people around then gets his coronet of bastard... And of course, Sir Eric Roberts. Yes, dressing for the occasion. I love that outfit. I think in Assassin too, Caroline Holdaway in Assassin, uh, uh, who gets dressed up, who gets fabulous makeup and stuff done and then uh, and does her hair and then menaces Avon. I really love this, the fact that you're in an old house and he links the raven and the crow and then you're waiting for the secret. You're waiting for the secret room or the thing to move. I actually think that looks really great. Oh, yeah, I want that fireplace. Yeah. I saw a really bittersweet animation during the week. It's just Robin leaning over the bust of Shakespeare just constantly opening the bat doors to the bat poles and closing it again. I saw that too. just love her enthusiasm and her little looks, you know? And now here we've got whatever that is, which looks like it's a beta out of it, and like electric, you know, beta where your mother makes the frosting for a cake. And this is just a box of flashing limes. Or where I do. But she just makes it so convincing and plugs in a few little audio... that's right Is that an audio in or an audio out? Oh yes. And yeah, she's just quite pleased with herself. Yeah, he's fine. I'm going outside. Is that him for this story? Does he come back? No, he comes back. I do love how that shot's slightly higher than usual. Like they've got the camera up on a... Yeah, I think they I think they have a chrome because they used it earlier in DeFreeze's house as well. What other... Doctor Who's did this guy direct? Because I'm really liking his direction. I believe this is his only one. That's a criminal. Daryl Blake. He's not flashy, is he? Like, there's no camp field or anything. He's not... doing anything sort of particularly special. But hearty. It's just super, super competent. But he's thinking about the framing and how to make it. Yeah. And I mean, this is fabulous. Like, I just love this in the script. It's a great reveal too. It's super smart. It was set up. forgotten it. But as a kid, it's like you always suspected her, you know, and and you thought it could be, you know, she's involved in that sort of thing. So it's that thing where, as the audience you didn't feel like, oh yes, I knew it. And so it's positive reinforcement, you know? And I just love the stories about her too. You know, like she's from different areas. She comes over from Brazil. She kills her husband. You know, she's she's really just terrific. That's a great scene and a great reveal. And now we're back in studio for. Oh, I love this. Oh, should we get, like, again, a lovely, I love the shots of this and now, da da. Oh, yes, and I'm still wearing my um. Yes, but Romana seems not to notice because it's kind of out of shot. Shall we see? Actually, the Romana is the perfect companion for that to happen to because to Romana. She knows nothing about earth culture. Yeah it's great. This is just evening wear. That's an interesting thing how Romana's down and then she's sitting like a statue. I mean, obviously that's limitation of the technology at the time but you know Romana's now. Who knows? Who knows? Disintegrated, probably. and that and that wasn't even the original cliffhanger, of course. The original cliffhanger was, you should recognise that face. It's your friend Miss Faye. And then an ogry was going to come up behind them. But the episode was underrunning by about 30 seconds. So we get that scene. I like that kind of cliffhanger, though, where it's a new bit of information that's revealed. A one-two sort of punch. Yeah. It would have been better if it had been the original. Yeah. Um Uh, I've been reading the new adventures each day. I'm still very early on. I'm currently in At time of recording. I'm currently in time worm. But by the time this goes out. At least you're not in cat's cradle. But I, um, yeah, I'm reading... Timeworm Revelation by Paul Cornell. And it's amazing, but I just finished Time Worm Apocalypse by Nigel Robinson, which is Middling. And one of the problems I raise in it is you have to wait until the last 20% of the book to get any answers. Whereas here we get and we get an answer. You drip you drip fed them. Exactly. Exactly. And I said, you know, that's a, that's an example of good Doctor Who. It's a big failing of the new adventures that they try to be clever. Sometimes they out clever themselves. Yeah, and they just end up being tiresome, I think. It makes it boring. Like you're waiting for answers and you don't get them until too late in the thing you don't care. No, that's right. You forgotten the questions by then. Yeah, yeah. Oh, look, has it been going on? So yes, you're right. sandwich convention. go and have a look. But he did to Doomwatch. And Ace of Wands. Oh. I love how she sort of just prances. And Paul Temple. Throws her and then... And the trances to get her staff. Oh boy. And crossroads. Directed in crossroads. Oh, wow. And some episodes of Corey. He's on the commentary for this as well with Mary and Tom's on a second. And triangle. Oh, yeah, so... Sorry, it wasn't that the episode the previous episode was underrunning. It was overrunning, so they had to move this shot. That's what it was. Yeah. Because this is quite quite a lengthy scene that we build up to. But it's why we get a sort of weird cut coming up. This weird car. It was to cut the fact that this was 2 separate shots. It wasn't a continuous shot. Oh, dear. Really, Brendan? Oh, and there's an arm. Oh, and there's so, and you could also briefly see the person behind it pushing out. So there was just a bloke standing in the archway. Oh dear. Maybe that's someone ate earlier that was dragging along, slowly sucking the life energy out of. Good head cannon there. Yes. Yes, yes. And this is also one of the few Doctor Who stories of the 70s and 80s where Dick Mills doesn't do the special sound. This is Liz Parker. Who, of course, would do much of the special sound for Blake 7. Yeah. Well, so it's women all round. Apart from the director. And the producer. I'm the star. And the star. Unlisted de Freeze. And canine. Yeah. I mean, the jury's still allowed Mr. DeFreeze. The and the Magara. The Pagara women? No, no. they Michael Wisher? Are they? No. Oh, this is fantastic. Oh, yes. Bless her. at this. I want her to be a companion. Yeah, let's have a whole series where her and the doctor go on adventures in the name of science. She's some, she's good, Tom. She's kind of proto Maggie Stables. Yes. Yes, yeah. I think when they were when they were writing in Evelyn, they very much had Amelia Rumford and Amelia Ducan in mind. Well, and it works with Colin for the same reason it works with Tom, you know. Because he's so bompous and he needs to be brought down. Donald Blake also did EastEnders. Oh, and it's oh, here we go. I think this is a little bit. Embarrassing. The music is a bit on the nose. But at least she's trying to sell it. Yeah. Yeah, and that line is just perfect. And the ogre is on the canine track. Yeah, that's it. They look ridiculous. twigs. hold up those twigs. look like it's got some weight behind it. Oh, dear. It's like when one of the goodies falls off a cliff, isn't it? Now, that's an interesting shot, that one. That's quite good. That was taken wholesale from a film. And unfortunately, I did have it written down. I can't find my notes. But yes, it... Was it the Muppet babies? Yes, it was the Muppet Babies. Was it? Yeah, but it... Meanwhile, Monty Python and the strokes of blood. The same Raiders. Fire. Come on. What are you doing, Susan? For God's sake, keep it pointed. He's got a wide angle. Oh here we go. She shouldn't be holding the staff in front of a face. Oh, she's like super evil now. I just remember. Roger Moore eyebrows, yes. Yes. Yeah, great villain delivery. There are very, very few female villains in the Tom Baker era, and she would have to be really well and truly one of the best. You see, I quite like the nurse from the previous story. And I really like, um, addressed her. Yep, another David Fisher. Yep, script. Adrast is fabulous, actually. really really good. Who else do we have? Hilda Winters. Yeah, as villains, yeah, Hilda Winters. Kind of Madeline, Agrisi from Space Pirates. Oh, between Tom Baker. In the Tom Baker. Oh, just in the Tom Baker era. Eldrad?. Not very many. No, no, there really isn't. Certainly, there are hardly any women in the Hinchcliffe era. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose you could say the Countess Scarlione? No. She's a dupe. A very glamorous and spectacular, but she doesn't. The king, the queen in, um, so. Oh, yes, Camilla. Yeah. Lexa is a bit of a villain? No, she's lovely. We love Lexus. She's just the intrans- intransigent base commander. Yes. Well, the chaplain. intransigent bass chaplain. can't imagine Father Mulcahy acting like that. So this is where the story takes a really weird turn because you do expect it to be like image of the Fendal or like the way we imagine all those Hinchcliffe stories to be. Um, and it goes into like ludicrously fun science fiction. I love the twist. Do you know, I'm actually surprised by that because, um, I love it as well, but I would have guessed before I knew that you might have thought it too silly. I, That's very interesting that you have that impression of me. I don't know. It's just something that I've always liked about this story. I really like the Megara and their silly little talk and trial and everything like that, which of course, you know, is coming up. But it is kind of, it is, it is intercut with this device and, and with a tea towel on it. And Amelia having to send off the ogre with K 9. So there's there's other stuff going on. If it had just been like in the ship for the rest of it, a bit like when, like in the face of evil, when they go into the city of those people, where it all just goes horribly wrong, perhaps not. But I really do like, really do, oh, this sound effect. Oh, it's bad. Oh, I like it. And and it coincides with him taking the detail off. Okay, if we're going to be casting burboid like aspersions on the protuberance of this thing. I'm not allowed to say anything. Okay, listeners, okay, dear listeners, if yours looks like that see a doctor. Which one? a bit vividly red, isn't it? Oh, I love someone has described this scene as canine throwing shade. This is... Oh, shut up, Kate. So nicely done. Yeah. And again, you've got canine framed in between the 2 of them there. So everyone's faces on screen. But just the question she asks and his explanations and and you feel a bit like that, I think, is a viewer. Like you accept it, but it's sort of like, you know? I also like, too, that she's asking questions not because she's stupid, but because this isn't her area. Yeah, he has an acquiring mind. Yeah, yeah. And she knows stuff about relatively even though she's not a physicist. You know, like all of that stuff's fun. So she's fun and smart and curious and is asking exposition. You don't have to be a character who has no educational knowledge to ask the right questions to move on the plot. You don't have to be stupid. Yeah, and so it serves to characterise her and her funny dismissive line about this. all that stuff about academia is just tremendous I think there's a real, I don't know, was it, is it synergy between the script and Anthony Reid and David Fisher? I just think they work really well. Yeah, well, um, the impression you get watching... The various making of is that Anthony Reid just seem to get on with everyone. You know, and he was, he seems to be very much someone who sort of gave the writers their head. And, you know, just communicated with them. It comes across as very personable in interviews, doesn't he? Yeah. Whereas, yeah, even even Douglas Adams next year, you kind of get the impression that he rewrote a lot himself, which the writers didn't object to. Yeah, in a time. And now, of course, in the late 80s, there was a science fiction film called inner space. So, you know, again, that was just something that my childish mind sort of mashed together inner space sort of being a comedic version of Fantastic Voyage. We would have been watching this in the late 80s, early 90s when it was constantly repeated on the ABC. Yes. Some of us a bit earlier. I think I remember seeing it the 1st time it aired on Australian television, which was so exciting. Like we had no idea of how it would work. Actually, that's quite true because like we'd had the repeats and I remember Sarah leaving and then Leila leaving and then that happened. And then suddenly we had Romana. And, yeah. I think I think I was definitely aware that this was new when I watched it. She, and I certainly remember the beginning of season 17 as well but I remember ringing my friend, you know, after the 1st episode of Rebos operation and going, ooh, I wonder whether they'll find a segment of the key to time next week. because I didn't know that it was going to be 6 stories, each one about segment of the key. The other thing I really like about this is that there are cuts from like her house. They're back here. And when, and even when they're running away from the ogre, they're in the mansion and they're suddenly at the cliff, like it's very much new style sort of storytelling, rather. Yeah, rather than we're going to follow them being chased all the way. So suddenly boom, boom. Like it's like dashing from one place to another, but you're not actually showing the dash. moves the story on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, years ago, I was thinking to myself, what makes soap operas so different to regular dramas? And I figured out what it was. And this is especially true of American soaps. It's less true of British soaps and Australian soaps, but especially American soaps. You don't get that. You'll cut away from family A, family B. But then when you cut away to cut back to family A, They'll recap their previous conversation before continuing. Nothing's happened off screen. And I think that's where good drama succeeds, where, you know, you cut out the boring bits. I think soap opera has to work for an audience that isn't paying attention or isn't tuning in every day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it needs to be constant during the washing. Yeah, whilst watching. That's so good. Just her reaction to that thing exploding in, you know? I'm also struck by how long Roman is being kept offscreen. Oh, in this episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's she's really selling the, oh, my friend is actually evil and and has kidnapped your friend. Like she's really worried. Yeah, it's like, what... Okay, one minute 20. I'm going to play. One hour, 20. doing so well. I know, I know. I forgot this is not bond finger. Bond thing is the one with the champagne. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm not even drunk. Yeah, it's like 11.30 AM. We're not drinking yet. Nathan, you're right. Romani is missing for a long time in this episode. Yeah, yeah. I think that's good. I think that's really good But you don't necessarily always feel like she's missing because you've got Amelia there and Romana's been doing the investigating. Now that you've mentioned it, yes, obviously, but why does he do that? Why does he have to spin like that? He thinks he's being funny. Well, you know what? I think he's probably said to Daryl, hey, Daryl, what is this effect going to look like? Well it's going to look like a spiral. Oh, well, how about I spin in the spiral? And the directors obviously said, okay. Oh, yeah, no, yes, I do agree, but I'm just saying like, you know really come off. Something you were saying earlier about the structure, Nathan. You know, we go from this being our Hinchcliffe style horror to this strange kind of spacy thing. Before we started recording listeners, last week as we record was Empress of Mars, the episode, and she's gone painted herself silver. And Nathan and I were discussing whether it might have been better as a two-parter. And Nathan brought up the interesting point that in the new series the two-parters work best when the 2 episodes are very different from each other. And that's what happens here. In new series terms, episodes one and 2 would be the 1st part which is the horror style story. And then episode two. We get this science fiction explanation with the fake skeleton and him looking really guilty. It does it does kind of kick the pace up the... Oh how hilarious. I managed to sense myself that time. That's all right. Don't go on about it. Oh dear. Crow Android with big lips, yeah. Now, I find it. I do find it strange here that they talk about hyperspace being an impossibility where we've had hyperspace in the show before, but maybe this is a different kind of hyperspace. Or a different script editor, right? Well exactly. But you know, something something like that, you know, they never say something like, oh, warp drive doesn't exist because warp drive is used on the show a couple of times. Looks like the Sylvester McCoy title sequence in the background. Sorry. Love this. Loved it. And to be fair, I still can't draw on a computer like that. So, you know. No, I mean, I mean, you know, they're using the technology at the time and it helps you to understand where it is and that sort of thing. It's effective. Now, I should mention now because at the time of recording season 24, I wasn't sure if we were going to do this. Our new flight through entirety, Sylvester McCoy era logo was designed by my friend Anthony Wells of pro bono publico design. And yeah, he did an amazing job. So this is my, this is my 1st mention of that. Of course, it's been in the show notes for several weeks now. That's right. You have seen it, in fact. You've seen him, but, you know, I wanted to give a verbal mention. I can attest to that, Brendan showed it to me the other day and the logo. Now, this ship is terrible. Made of Space 1999 Eagle commercial model kits. And at the back there, microphones. Yep. Like the ones we're using now, actually. It's terrible, isn't it? And the problem is that thing where the model is so small that you can't shoot it close up and so it just looks small. I think the main problem is, um, you know, it's shot on video and then done on green screen, so there's no depth of field. No, that doesn't help either. Yeah, I think... I understand why they never shoot these things from below either. That would help too, wouldn't it? Um, I, that, you know what they did in the invasion of time. The Varden ship was always shot, was almost always shot from below. Oh, for the film shots. There are a few video shots of it. But yeah, you know, I understand Daryl Blake here is trying to avoid any filming as a cost-saving measure. And I suppose there are so few shots of the ship you can get away with it. And we did get that wonderful shot earlier with the doctor walking through the window and you see him from the outside, which would have been more difficult to achieve on film for a Doctor Who budget. But yeah, it is a shame because I don't think the model's at fault. I think the way you shoot it is like if you look at the the empress next year, the empress and the Hekate, those are really good looking models, but they look so terrible on video. And even the Hyperion 3 looks terrible, doesn't it, many years later? Maybe they should re-release all these things with CG effects. Like a different option. To remember the darken space? Can I just say? that as a kid? Burgeoning awakenings? Higher. When this gentleman came out of the tent. I always love this scene. I never quite understood why. many years later. That's right. And of course, yeah, look at him. He's well fit. He's in a rather 70s hairless kind of way. Yes, but James, I am from the 70s, so Pat, Pat. And of course, Pat making her 2nd appearance in 2 weeks is Sharon Taylor, who we saw last week as you are listening, dear listener as Stella's mum in Dragonfire. Oh God, she was awful. Oh gosh. Oh, no, no, no, no. I can we point to that out when we were doing the live tweet. The live tweets and I didn't make the connection. I mean, this is just, like, as a chart, I actually had nightmares about this. Oh yeah, me too. Oh, yes. Like, it's really, really horrific. You know what I said at the time, it looks like a tomorrow person. I do think that Graham Williams, when he does horror, actually does it better than Hinchcliffe, because you get the these 2 people who we haven't seen before. Obviously we won't see them again. But you, you're affected to red. Yeah. Yeah, they're normal people. In fact, you know, there's a lot of times when Doctor Who opens with 2 people who'll get killed by the monster. you know, think Attack of the Cyberman. Yeah, for all about any other criticisms of that story. That opening scene is incredibly effective. Yeah, whereas here, they're normal people. Do you know what I mean? And they're, you know, talking about the pub the night before. They've just happened to stumble into the plot. Yeah, yeah. And they've gone into the woods and never to be seen of again. I think that must I think that must have been a particularly evil we're in. because it's been locked up. A naughty wearing. A naughty wearing. It's not got anything to do with the fact that that's all they can. But they're only in it for that short amount of time, but it's so effective. Yeah, yeah, it's a great scene. The dying people are the women. The dying people. Sorry. And now... And of course, we have to dock down so the visual... and we don't notice it. So, um, the, the, the Magara were these little sort of um sculptures, sculptures of lights, essentially, being carried around and manipulated by 2 black clad puppeteers, but it's the same lights that are used for Arato's voice speaking module the following year. It's a similar principle, but they didn't need the puppeteers. No, but the way the lights go round and around with the shining central, like it's clearly the same sort of prop. Um, well, I think these, the light balls themselves were the property of the puppeteers. But yeah, I think for creature from the pit, the BBC made their own. And of course, we have, we have the central lights being voice activated by Gerard Cross and David McAllister. doing their Michael Wisher impersonation. No one's eye line is right. It doesn't matter. Like, you know, I just think, or maybe he's looking away because the light's too bright and they're blinding him. More head cannon. Yes, good. I love this. having their own little chat. You know, they're just these flashing lights and, you know, they sneak off and then they get a little bit... And then, like, they're not looking at him like they're just, you know, I just love it. I love it. None can escape the magata. I think the script expects them to be floating balls. Yes, but Star Wars had just come out and there's that scene where Luke is training with a floating ball and Daryl Blake said, I want to avoid a direct comparison. Well, I think he made a good choice. Yeah, me too. I like the lights and it ties in with the mythological idea. You know, of course, the Megara were mythological beings in in Celtic and, um, uh, angle mythology. Yeah, so, and so to have them as lights and sort of little areas. Well, I think we, I think I remember in our episode on Stones of Blood, speculating about the person whose job it was to paint her breast, silver. Well, the... I don't know. John Nathan Turner. Was it Beatrice? I would say it was the makeup designer who was Anne Briggs. Oh, thank you very much qualification. Got that a bit wrong. Lesbian and Briggs? Okay. Her pulsing staff is put paid to that other. Oh, straight in the camera. It's such a good makeup job. Oh, agree. or whatever she's saying. Oh, agree. And she just does this little look at the end here. She's having a moment. And you can just kind of see behind that, the swirliness. The camera is tilting up. But because the rocks are in such shadow, it's hard to tell, but I picked that up my last time watching this. So she's floating up into the ship. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's interesting that, like, she comes into that and and, like she's just faded away. and I assume Professor's thing has to go to this point. Does that mean that she can just hijack that and come from any point of the ship? Do you know what I'm saying rather than standing where on her? Yeah, yeah. coming in here. Yeah, well, I think I think Vivian has complete control. So that's actually her swirly thing. Yeah. Not the professor's swirly thing. right. Yeah, because she destroyed the swelly thing and then she made her own soy thing. Forever. And she's got a great laugh for a cliffhanger, it has to be said. There's nothing wrong with that Tom sort of hugging and clutching Mary there. At this stage, and to the end of his tenure. Tom's attitude for how does the doctor deal with women is the doctor doesn't have the human heterosexual male attraction to women. So he, you know, he will he will just grab them and clutch them clothes because we need to be close for the trans mat, you know and his whole thing was the doctor doesn't see anything sexual in that because it never occurs to him. And it's why at the beginning, um, when Mary's saying, no, no, you can't come in yet. When he's saying, what do you mean I can't come in? He doesn't understand that you can't walk in on someone who's dressing. But it was also a way where he could motivate lots of scenes of him clutching his female post-star, probably. Especially when they're as attractive as Mary Tam. Yeah, yeah. And even more when they're Lal award. I think he wouldn't have dared tried it with Louise Jameson. Well, he hated her at the time. Well, apparently after Horror of Fang Rock, where she just said to him, look, you're being very unfair. Maybe you don't want to have a sidekick, but I'm here too. Apparently, after that point, it wasn't the friendship it is now but it was a healthy working relationship. I can't believe we're... It goes so quickly. It's such a joy when you're watching so much fun. It does seem like a jaw. Yeah, he does whip along, doesn't it? We're not watching the keys of barrenness again. I think the trial scenes in this are so much better than the child seems in trial and time lord. You know why? Because people are standing and moving around the set. You know, why wasn't Linda Bellium painted in silver, for God's sake. That would have been great. Okay, some good cliff. Well, not quite cliffhang rending there. Acting. She smelt the fart. Deos ex Megara. Sorry. And I'm, you know, these sloping panels, they don't quite meet the floor, but I like it. He is ours, he is ours. You may have him afterwards. I want four. A haircut. Yeah, he needs one, you're right, Brendan. He's like, he's like pertly. It's his 5th season and his hair is at his most buffon. Is that console made of like a cushion to model of BBC Television Centre? Yes, from the arc in space, probably. Yeah, it's another one of those control pedals for the Arkin space that's been, but yeah, you're like, you're right. It looks like TV centre, which is... Being turned into apartment. Being turned into flats, yeah. I love how she's strained in that shop where she's sitting, like again. I think they've demolished the action, Hilton. Yes, yes, they have. I actually did a little pilgrimage to the BBC television centre last time I was in London. I just sort of sat there in quiet contemplation outside the gates for a little while. What did you think about? They filmed this in there. Pete regenerated in here, you know. Amusingly, when I did the same thing when I was living in the UK about eight, 9 years ago, um, as I was walking down, to, to, like to television centre, a, a garbage truck went past, and the name of the company was, um, disposing of the waste was TARDIS. TARDIS waste disposal. And it had a picture of a police box on the side of it. No one in the BBC is actually looking out because, you know they'll sue. Exactly. They even sued to the metropolitan police, didn't they? Yeah. So I'm just laughing at the Magara telling off Romano. up for the death penalty as well. Maybe we should get the Megara to impeach Trump. They'd vaporise him on the spot. Your testimony is irrelevant and orange. She's quite liking them, really. But I do wonder if they're kind of a counterpoint to the envisioning of Romana as a kind of buy the book character. you know, last story she's talking about in Berkeley's Planetary Gazetteer and what have you. And so, you know, she does soften over the season and in the season of Big Finish audios that Mary did with Tom. There are, there are several moments where she contemplates whether she should soften slightly, whether she should adopt new ideas and what have you. Because she does need to be kind of lawful good so that Tom has someone to rebel again. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And yeah, next year instead, when she's more like the doctor, of course, we get fabulous repartee, but we're getting fabulous repartee here as well. Another... Another framing shop with Vivian in the Middle dance, fantastic. Yeah, Daryl Blake has an excellent sense of depth of field. It had never really struck me before. There's still no one's eyelines are right when... Oh, I can't win them all. Need a tennis ball on a stick like they had for tooth and claw. Yeah that's exactly right. Oh, do you remember David Tennant? commentary on tooth and claw? talking about the guy in the in the motion capture suit. Who's in a very skin tight motion capture suit and David Tennant says he was a big boy. I love to look at the tennis ball, apparently. It wasn't the tennis ball I was looking at. I love the way that Tom just takes this... That is fantastic actually. Cornell Day and topping hate this. in the discontinuity guide. They say the 1st 2 episodes are great lead up and it's all thrown away in the last 2 episodes revolving around the doctor's defensive himself in hyperspace, which is woeful. Well, can I just say I completely and utterly disagreed. Yeah, so do I. You know, they also say that time and the Rani would only be possible if it was cut down to 3 episodes and keep with the self-lobotomizing kit. Well, I do agree with them. And Mr. DeVara... get it wrong. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It written Mr. about Trilunda, but it's all, like, it's almost always pronounced as Mr. Trin. Trin... No, no, no, like it actually they actually change it halfway through by accident. Someone had spelt it and they just kept... So in season 16, she's Romana de Varatnalunda. and then she becomes Romana Veratra Lunda in season 17. Oh, really? And I think in one of the Gallifrey audios, Romana has a passing comment, something on the lines of, oh, you know, I tried different pronunciations once. That's good She's really good at repairing. Yeah, maybe maybe the 2nd half of your name evolves with each regeneration. I'd change my name, like at school. Like I'm either BLB or BLB depending on how I like to pronounce my name. Fair enough. Well, why do other timelines all have 2 syllable names then? I don't really understand. Well, in the Gallifrey Audios, Android is given a longer name. Oh, he's Andred Veratralunda. It's got it's got... It's got lots of C's in it after the Android. I like that. Yeah, it's got lots of C's in it after the Android. It kind of sounds like a dinosaur name, like Android. Um, But yeah, sort of in the Gallifrey series as much as possible. Um, like Maxwell is referenced. I don't think he appears, but he is referenced. Maxel Veratrillon. Yeah. What is it, the completely useless encyclopedia said, you know, the real secret of Doctor Who is going to be when the master, the, um when the Doctor, the Master, and the Rani's names are revealed to be Takundravatral, and the Cecil Dravatral, and the Ad Bjork. I thought the doctor was Gordon. His real name is Dorothy. I never actually, ever, ever, ever want to find out his name. His surname is Bennett. Yeah, I've got no interest in finding out the doctor's name. I was actually thinking about this the other day because reading Timeworm Revelation where Cornell does amazing things with language. There's a moment where the doctor speaks a word that sounds like breaking glass, and that's the description you get, and it got me thinking. It's like, no, I don't care. It doesn't matter. No, there's no possible answer to the question that wouldn't be stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, like name of the doctor. Well, that's not a good story, but you did know that you were never going to get the doctor's name. Going back to this, which we're actually doing commentary on. I do once again? I do like this trial. The doctor actually has witnesses that he can actually question as opposed to another trial which I've watched recently. And, you know, as you as you complained about with Trial of a Time Lord, and I quite agree. The doctor making fun of the Valiard belittles his character. Whereas here, Tom is acting like he's in a real courtroom and being respectful to the judges. Occasionally, he's making snide little asides, but he's not doing knackyard brickers yard all. you're just fairy life. because he's frustrated, not because he's being disrespectful. And because the scripts are wittier in this era. Well, bloody Romana, making the professor carry the tripod. Here, here, a 75-year-old woman carry this heavy object. She's going to protect her blow dried hair. See, you know, this, I really like this. And, you know, it's hard to imagine another doctor doing as well with this scene. Certainly pert we hated acting with green screen performers. Yellow screen. It's witty, but it's... You know, that really sells it. Yeah, it's witty dialogue. That's true. It's clever as well. Oh, clever way, that's what I meant. But I mean, the way that he finally gets them to probe her mind and solved the mystery. requires him to be smart. And so I think that's really good. And the look on his face there where she's agreed to what I want. Oh, dear. You know, not that he didn't want her to agree, but he realises she must have... Romana has taken that. Oh, contraption after all. Yes, she must have felt guilty. And I didn't mention this earlier, but when Amelia repairs it, the tube, the projector tube is a different colour. It has changed colour. It was pink and now it's got some yellow in it. I don't know if we'll get another good shot of it, but it's showing that there's that progression and that attention to detail. Oh, look, the vertical holds gone. Mind. Oh, it's gone black and white, actually. It does look like a black and white shot, doesn't it? Just a little bit of colour there. It's um, what's that? Schindler's list. I never thought we had to compare... Schindler's leg. I just love that how she says I did not and it gives like a .6 reading. Like, I mean, within the legal definition. She wasn't there, she didn't do it. Like, it should be a one. 0 if it's out of one. Like, it's so funny. Or is it is it hearing that she's actually being deceitful in some way? You know, yeah, there's something very Douglas Adamsey about the Megara and that sort of stuff, having a legal definition of truth which is like a number and that the truth can be quantified as a number between 0 and one, all of that stuff, even the stuff about blowing up an entire galaxy in contempt of court, all of that is very Douglas Adams. I don't give up. So your simplication. It's implication that there are people in... Did I miss that? The people like the aliens in the dead aliens in the cells. Are they actually had jury? They are either prisoners or guards. Okay, prisoners. Yeah, I want them to be prisoners, I think. Okay, so we're going to be a guard? Yeah, don't be racist, Don. We're in a make a good guard. Yeah, yeah, do what I say or I'll improve. Or I lay my pupa in you. Yeah, that's right. Maybe they can communicate with them, McGaragang, beep, beep, beep and going. Oh, well, remember the word... Leave the arc. They could speak. Best performance, Kevin, more distance. Apparently, those like little beepy noises they made. What they're actually saying is, I'm Joe Cross. I'm talking to my friend David McAllister. And then that's just sped up. Yeah, and they are just saying, bliss balls, bap, bap, bap, bap. Oh dear. I love this canine searching the crockery. How? He's probing the crockery. I want a spinoff series with Beatrix Lemon as Romana's companion and K9 as their sidekick. But they need to investigate all these sort of druidic circles in in the UK. With lots of doors. With a slight whiff of satific frontage. I think this is actually really cleverness, whole citric, sometimes of meat and all sort of thing. I just don't like her blood. Like, yeah, yeah. Like yours, Nathan. Yeah, that's right. Well, Todd, well, Todd, you may get an opportunity to play the door game, of course, because Ford of Doomsday was in our Peter Davidson poll, which is now closed, will be announcing the winner at the end of this... at the end of this episode. You know what you've got to do. Infinity. No, it's too late by now. They've already heard this. everyone's vote. Todd, you'll have to tweet it. Yeah, go back in time. using Hermione Granger's thing and make sure that everyone does. I'll just have to organise some sort of... If we have to do our infinity, I think I'm going to have a family event. Speaking of Harmani Granger, I've just finished playing Lego Harry Potter. Good. I really enjoy Lego games. so much fun. We should have Lego stones of blood. would be fantastic. There is Lego Doctor Who, so, you know. They're not happy. I want I want the ogri to appear in Lego dimensions as a monster. Oh dear. Tom's having fun now. Um, Susan Engel, and I believe we mentioned this at the time, but was in the frame to replace Diana Rigg in the Avengers. Okay. Along with Wanda Ventham. Both of them auditioned for the role that eventually became Tara King. Imagine if it had been WandaVenth. Oh my god. Um, yeah. And the thing is, Wanda had, in a way, had a better chance because they did decide they wanted a blonde. And so they dyed Linda Fawson's hair when she got the part and it fell out. So that's a wig. So for her 1st 7 episodes, she wears a variety of wigs and then she wears her own hair. I love the fact that they're so intense here. and they've forgotten about the oak. I'm actually going to get them. But they're also working out the whole Ogross system thing, which I think then cuts back to his questioning of, um, well, here now. Finding out the same, similar information. Yeah. Do you know, it's funny when we saw that door in shot a little bit earlier, I thought, oh, that's that glass that they make out of like toffee. yeah. and there it was smashing. I always expect her to be revealed to be the, the, um, she killed the child bride of, um, uh, you know that doctor episode. Martha's supposed to episode with that bloodsucking vampire woman. Oh, oh, you expect her to be, um, um, Anne Reid? No, no, no, but what Anne Reed, did she, she, she murdered the, the the, the child, princess of whatever, you know, wasn't she tasty? I always I always think that she did something simple. Yeah, no, she has that same sort of dismissive kind of She's kind of effortlessly just wicked, isn't she? Gosh, that's a that's a great episode, isn't it, Smith and Jones? really love it. All those Michelin star sources. She's so good. And we've got her coming up in a couple of months. We do. Yeah, yeah. She's in um, Gosa Fenrich. Are you going to do the special edition of cursive film? haven't decided yet. Well, we're not commentary. Well, we may do. If we do, we'll put up a quick poll. The thing is, you could do all the special editions as options because they're actually quite good. I like, unlike the Pete special editions. Um, Battlefield, Curse of Fenrick. That's at least one other one, isn't there? Is there Battlefield? Yeah, there is, yeah. It's got that stuff with the um, the spiral staircase and the, the terrible, like, Christmas lights wrapped around it. Look how long his hair is. It's sticking up. There's a special edition of Paradise Towers. You know, the doctor walks out and goes, hello, and then it cuts to the doctor coming back in with Mel going, hello. Goodbye. Not a fan. not a fan Todd. I'm not a fan? No, what story this season? I love what I tell her. I love that effect. Yeah, but when they stand, you know, with the arms, like, like statues. Yeah, didn't they do that effect in Dragonfire? Well, no, I was going to say, Monks in a Pyramid. was it called? Oh, yes. Life of the Land. Pyramid at the end of the world. No, no, the next one where they like, they've got the, like, they stop the bullets with their little sort of lattice work. So with your face mats, just repainted. Her brain might be damaged. This is not Vivian Fay. That's brilliant. It's James. Yeah, yeah, yeah. dog has just been terribly clever. A great seal of... And you know what? That painted floor almost works as a great. You know, I've only just really looked at it and noticed it's not actually a cut through grate. It is just painted on. Are you kidding me? It's not a great. They've just laid... Yeah, no, so did I. They've laid great over it and sprayed painted. Yeah, yeah, in sections. that's clever. Yeah. Because they've got the studio floor. underneath it. Yeah. I, yeah, I literally only just noticed because I thought I was looking at the VFA. I thought it was previously. They're too good Foley on it as well, don't they? Yeah, they do metal footsteps. I thought it was like, you know how I mentioned at the time they kept using that scaffolding, like all those different stories. I just thought it was like some of that scaffolding down. over the floor. It's a bit like on Red Dwarf, they'll end up using corridors from alien and aliens as walls and floors, which is incredibly effective from series 3 onwards. And there's a little kind of brace under the chair. next to Cesera Diplos, which is just kind of a design feature that you might expect to see if that chair is in some way modular or it can be removed. Or it's like a... an entry port. Yeah, the under floor area. My favourite thing about this is, you know, there's all these penalties that are 1000s of years and she's sentenced to serve them consecutively, I think. Yeah, that's actually imprisonment. Yes. consecutively. And look at her face. Look at this. Fabulous work. So I suppose she does a 1500 year sentence 1st and then another one. Yeah, and then the indefinite. What I love about this is the fact that, um, They've obviously cast the stone, right? And so she's then got an act to make it look like she's actually in the shape of the stone. Oh, I like her hat. And I do, I also like how the key to time part of it is just throwaway. It's just... We almost found this thing. We forgot about a... I understand there and do this and there we go. It is it's remarkably effective though, you know, you are working backwards from it. But yeah, yeah, the whole key to time thing. They have been talking about how it's here but it's not here and it's here, but it's not here. So, you know, it then ties in with the hyperspace idea that hyperspace, you're occupying the same point, but not the same dimension. Yeah, and it's kind of like you forget that they're even looking for it and then he grabs it and you're like, ah, aha. And he lets the doctor be clever, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah. and uses it to send the Magara back because he fixed their ship. But I mean, that's, I mean, to their ship, is that why? Like, is that why or was it something to do with the property of the? Yeah, I always thought it was to do with the property at the segment because they do mention that it has the power to change objects or at least their appearance. or fix high up loose ends of the plot. I love the fact that she has to survey everything all over again. Oh, gee, that looks a bit wrong, doesn't it? There's a nipple there. Left nipple, clearly visible in that. She's not wearing a bar. You know what, though? I do wonder if that is a feminist statement, like a deliberate... I think there are, there are, there are mentions, like, there are interviews with Tom where he says, and she refused to abroad. He actually, she was, she was a wonderful woman. Refused to write, right? Yeah. And, you know, I that's probably why he liked her so much. Ray. Oh, isn't this lovely? Oh, great line and... Lovely delivery. Oh, that's wonderful. Bless you. But no, I do I do think if, you know, if she saw that as an important part of her character. And you know what? You can believe that because she is this female academic who has obviously had to fight hard to be taken seriously by sexist men. So, you know, the idea of quote unquote, I'm simplifying the bra burning feminist. Did she put them back into that refrigerator? Yeah, they're in a limbo cupboard in limbo. The limbo area. It's wonderful, isn't it? Because again, he can't do the thing because he's more... Look at it, look at it. Look at her. Oh, my God. We get a subtitle where hesitating. The final shot should have been. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it would have been wonderful. Oh, thank you, Mary. Thank you. you, Mary. We miss you, Mary. Beatrix. Lovely. Well that was fantastic. was fantastic. Susan Engle is still with us? Yes. and still acting? She's a silver fox. Gerald Cross, David McAllister, right? There you go. She used the 3rd segment to turn herself into a silver fox. So yeah, that brings us to the end of Stone to Blood. And I am pleased to announce that at the end of season 25, we hope commitments pending, we will be releasing our commentary on... Enlightenment. But next week we will be back with remembrance of the Daleks as well as our nominations for our Colin Baker commentaries. So do come back for that. In the meantime, you can find us online at Flightthrough Entirety sexy, Flight Through Entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter. Over on Bondfinger. We are nearing the end of the Pierce Brosnan era of James Bond. You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at Bondfingercast on Twitter. Until next time, may none of the stones around your tent suck your blood. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Ta-ta. Oh, James. I was waiting for that to come in.