Wall of Nipples

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast who invites you to come into the water where it's always warm. I'm Brendan. I'm Nathan I'm not a little girl anymore Of course you aren't darling. It's Doctor Who's 1st example of a really well thought out two year story arc. Oh, sorry, wait, no, it's Curse of Fenerick. Hooray! We all love the curse of fanfic, don't we? For a long time, this was my favourite story. I actually thought this was the best... A lot of people. Saint Kate Orman. Yeah. Well, I think that that was kind of like received wisdom at the time, and I think... It looked so fresh. looked so good. So it's Nicholas Mallett. And he's on location and this was a four-parter that wasn't originally meant to be on location, I think. It was originally going to be a combination of studio and location but he just decided that it worked better on location. I actually ended up saying a bit of money doing it that way, too. Well, you can't tell. It looks horribly expensive and went over time and budget. You know this was going to be 5 parts, but the powers that be, and Mr. Powell, who we thought was our friend, said, no, keep it to 4 parts, cut all the nonsense out, which is why it's difficult to follow unless you watch the thing, because they wanted this series to end this year and they weren't telling anyone. No nonsense, no more publicity. just let it go Meanwhile, JNT stopped pushing for the 5th episode to flesh it out because he realised that. And, you know, this was him thinking we definitely have season 27. We're doing really well. He thought that if I tell the BBC that they've given me money to make 14 episodes and I make 15, they'll give me money to make 13 episodes and expect 14 next year. And of course, he didn't know that he wasn't getting another year. If he did know, he may have pushed to extend these episodes to half hours. We are 3 stories into what we didn't realise at the time, the last ever classic series, and this is the 1st time we've properly gone to World War II. Yeah, like now this is interesting. You know why we didn't get it under Barry Letts. We're all saving this off, dear listener, because there's so much to say about this and we're actually squirming in our seats from too much coffee and too much excitement. So we're saving getting into the story. We just going to do the do the peripherals. We're going to approach it as if by long boat and oars. Yes, and we haven't even got on to some of the oarsmen yet, have we, Brenton? No? No, it's very cool, face over there. But this is the point is that Barry Letts, who had been serving on a British submarine, not anyone else's, a British submarine in World War II. And really didn't like to talk about his wartime experiences, but actually vetoed. There were 2 stories that were going to include the Nazis. And he, no, no, no, no, no, we do not talk about World War 2 on Doctor Who. I think that for most of Doctor Who's run, it doesn't do the recent past. all. like it's something... More games, skirts around it. Well, I mean, it does World War I because we can't do World War II yes. So the 1st time that the doctor travels back in time to a period when the show is on. Am I right about this? Remembrance? Yeah. So we never go back just 20 something years. Like we go back to the Victorian era, we go back to the early 20th century. Oh, we're contemporary, but it's... Yeah, and certainly in the Paris Letts era, we never go back in time, apart from Time Warrior. Oh, and and I guess... I think the best of the per one. Go back and listen to that. We're good in that. The World War 2 setting lends it a bit of gravitas without making the mistake of putting Nazis on screen. And I do think that, you know, having World War 2 with Nazis would just deform... Doctor Who doesn't have the dramatic weight to cope with that. And it's more interesting putting in Soviets, well, polls as decorated as Soviets for this. because we're talking about the boundaries and distinctions and sides changing during conflict as we're about to get with the chess game. It's perfection that we have, Soviets and rather than Nazis, which would have been really obvious. Also, we're still selling to RTL. So cough cough. But I do think too, that there is a Cold War metaphor for this as well. in the sense that the story is suffused with an idea of the evil inherent in humanity, and that that's one of the massive themes of the entire story. And that is... Levine isn't with us? No, no, but we remember him. But, you know, there is in the story a massive underground stash of missiles filled with enough poison to kill everything in the world. Or the boob room, as the rock was called it. look a bit like that. Do go back and have a look, yes. A wall of nipples. Yes, the Diana Dores Memorial. But it is there rarefied as how evil and destructive we are. And so Nicholas Parsons has lost his faith because of the bombing of Dresden. You know, the girls are told by Miss Hardacre that there's evil in their hearts and there's no good in them and that turns out to be true. We discover just like Servoland in terminal that humanity evolves into sort of horrific monsters throughout the fulness of time. The whole thing is set in this atmosphere of evil. And so what better place to set it than this sort of massive terrifying conflict that looms over the 20th century? I think another good reason that they don't just say it's World War 2, so it's going to be a story about Nazis is, of course, that in human terms, it's the British naval commander who's the villain. Yes, you know, Millington is the villain. And if you had a World War 2 story with a Nazi invading force, but then revealed that a British character... Yeah, it's kind of like, that's a bit awkward. This was encouraged by Ian Briggs was fan of history anyway, but so was Kart Mall. And this was encouraged by everyone who was working on it because of course, kids in Britain growing up understanding the history, we didn't quite get it at schools in Australia, but you know that Britain and Russia, as it was, before World War II, almost a century, were playing that long game with whole nations and with the Middle East as the prize. And of course, it's all about oil, but just, and where do we think Fenrick's jugs, cough, cough actually come from? The Middle East, of course, is the genie joke. Middle East, yeah. Yeah, but the whole nations were their chess pieces and this was playing along. Well, Germany was really not the deal and nor was France. It was Britain and Russia. So this story has a lot. If you're sitting at schooling or reading modern history. getting this. Kids. Also, poles. aren't they great? Playing Russians. You know, the fellow, the fellow who was, um, someone will film me in who was who was playing Ace's Louvre interest, one of them. I might say. Yes, of course, it was really uncomfortable playing a Russian officer and... Because he was... more because his family had gone through such awful experiences under the Russians during the war. It just adds depth and to everybody's performance. No one is indifferent to their work in this. Even to the point of bit players like Corey Pullman, who plays aces. Well let's not go there yet. Why did she not have an extraordinary career after this? There's no one in this that doesn't glitter? She's amazing, and that little subplot, which is just sketched out in a few scenes, is incredible. She's really, really good. And, you know, we get, as we have had, I think, in pretty much every story with Ace, except, actually, yeah, I would say except Silver Nemesis. Pair Sophie Aldred up with another strong female actress and we get amazing scenes which deliver character as well as plot. And the scenes between Sophie and Corey. They're at 1st touching. They tell us about the morality of the 1940s when Ace blithely suggests that maybe Kathleen's not married and Kathleen is just outrage, not outraged at the thought of an unwed mother, but that she might be mistaken for an unwed mother. Beautifully done. To the point that Briggs was really careful talking to her because people were still alive then and the folk on the thing about getting the speech patterns right in the dialogue, right? This is apparently how people in 43 in Britain talked, so the language and stylising Miss Hardacre, of course, being one of those girls who'd lost her reputation. Which is why she's not married. Which is made explicitly clear in the novel. And when she's listening to the record and Gene and Phyllis come back in and kill her in the novel, she's actually thinking about that boy whom she really did love and care for, but because they did things in the wrong order and he wasn't a matron. And he wasn't from a nice family and couldn't offer her the life her parents wanted. She had to then go away to the country for a little bit. That's why she's sort of listening to that record and smiling wistfully because she's actually jealous of these young girls who can be a bit freer and talk about being Lorna Jane or Gary Russell. You know, it is, it is slightly funny that, and I thought at the time it was a little bit risqué because it's the 80s, you know, and it's very strongly implied that Aces had sex by the line, I'm not a little girl. And also in the novel, there is some joke about maiden's point, you know, and whether Gene Phyllis. How cold that water actually is? Well, our Jean Phyllis and Ace actually maidens at this point. Well, either Gene or Phyllis actually say when Ace says, oh, let's go to Maiden's Point. Well, yeah, it's Gina says that rules me and Phyllis out. Yeah, yeah, but I think it rules Ace out as well. And then the idea that in Ace's peer group. She doesn't actually know anyone who's married. She's sort of slightly weirded out by the fact that Kathleen is married and she just assumes, oh, well, you know, is it your boyfriend? And she thinks about not being married either. I actually thought that that was a little bit risque even for sort of the late 1980s in a kid's show to kind of strongly imply all of that sort of stuff. And it's certainly something that we would never have dreamed of doing, you know, 10 years earlier on Doctor Who. That's the lovely thing. meant for family viewing. And that's why it's so strong, has been so strong in the comeback. Ah, can you imagine if this had just got its publicity? I don't think it would ever have been taken off there. No, absolutely not. You know, because of this season. Season 24 averaged just over 4000000 season 25 averaged just over 5 million. was that 6000000 by the end of the season. This season, of course, we discussed a couple of weeks ago, started out at 3 million. At this point, it had grown, and this story averages over 4000000 viewers. So we're back up to season 24 levels, opposite Coronation Street with almost no publicity. Not bad. Not bad at all. Not bad. There's so much in this. Gamesmanship, of course, the history of computing, unmarried motherness, drawing on the backs of your legs, something for everyone, isn't it? Homosexuality and chemical castration. Yes. And Ian Briggs has explicitly confirmed that Judson's paralysis and paraplegia was a metaphor for Turing's homosexuality. Now, for those of you who don't know, of course, highly recommended the imitation game with Benedict Cumberbatch. And even better one, and what this was based on was at the time was Andrew Hodges, Alan Turing the Enigma. But, you know, during at the time in the 80s, where he was actually quite more known to us who were just starting university because he was figuring in a lot of, um, you know, amateur productions and plays and and writing as the go-to figure in the pre-AZT days of HIV recognition and because he saved the empire in many ways. We can get onto that and what is actually happening with the computers. So he, he, um, he kind of codefines this, this idea of the touring machine, which is capable of doing all sorts of calculations that appear quite complex and that you would think actually needed a conscious mind behind them. But it is just a machine that consumes input, transforms it, and then does output. It's a very simple mechanical device. And that's what computers are But Turing took it to another level. Do you know who his sources were and who he wrote as his inspirations? Girdle, as in Girdle Esher Bach, and Lewis Carroll. Turing actually cites Lewis Carroll in his writing because no, not through his fiction, but for his symbolic logic work. Which, of course, plays into his fiction when characters say things like this word means whatever I say it means, which is very much a coding idea. Of Mrs. Thatcher. I mean, Ian Briggs has gone as far to say that, as far as he's concerned, from a writing point of view, Millington and Judson had had an affair. Oh, very much so. Yeah, and he's like, that's what I wrote, that's what was played. Of course, we couldn't say it because of Mrs. Thatcher. And because it's 19, and because it's 1989. It's in the novel. It's in the novel. And it is strongly implied in that scene where it's quite clear that Millington is responsible for the injury that put Judson in the wheelchair. And it's out of jealousy because Johnson was talking to another boy on the rugby field and Millington tackles him too hard. Yeah, it's in the novel. That's what happens. For listeners who may not know the full story of Alan Turing. I mean, I'll sum it up very briefly. He was, of course, one of the fathers of modern computing, but also built the Enigma decoder, which here is instead the ultimate decoder, which broke the German cyphers. He was also homosexual and of course closeted in the 1940s. He was found out after the war and given the option, I believe, of imprisonment or chemical castration. Do you know how he was found out? He was robbed. He was robbed by, well, just trade had been several times. Of course, you know, because blackmail was the industry. He just rang the local police and said, oh, I think some things have gone missing. And being lovely and vague, and in his own head, and they came over. One of the cops is very decent. Another one started debating him. And of course, he was honest. Oh, yes, well, he just left and I, no, I don't know who he was. And then, of course, they got him for the homosexuality. It had been known by the department and, of course, ignored because they were educated people. But no, it was this one bastardy cop that decided, oh, yes, I can see what's going on and used and abused the laxity of the laws to do what they did to this man. Yeah, the chemical castration. The idea was rob him of his libido so he won't have these libidinous thoughts for men and he killed himself. Yeah, but it also leads to a lot of major organ disfunction. Oh, no. It was a crippling series of treatments. Yeah, yeah. No, it's not just, you know, you don't feel up to it tonight anymore. It was like there were physical changes and things. I mean, it was really, really quite horrific. And there was a few years ago, a move to get the British Parliament, I think, to pardon touring posthumously. But even that's unsatisfactory because the whole idea that the state's role is to enforce heterosexuality on the populace is just outrageous. Yeah, the pardon is disgusting. That's right, because he didn't actually do anything wrong. And he was a hero. Anthony Beaver sights him as being one of the major reason, but that turning point just at that time. And they've worked out once Monty had had his success in the desert. They worked out later in that year. I think it was 43 that the coats had been cracked, but there were 6 months where he turned it around. His discoveries really made it work. And computing in general. I mean, we wouldn't have, you know, the theoretical basis of computing and that idea of the touring machine. Well, he was also using von Neumann's 1928 theories, you know, of gamesmanship, which we talked about, which, of course, are in this script. There's a lot going on. I mean, there is a reference explicitly to the prisoner's dilemma. Yes. You know what that is? that's when a cop takes the 2 suspects into separate cells and says, okay, we'll broker a deal with you. If you grasp on the other bloke, I'll lessen your sentence. And of course, the idea is that it's reduced down. That's John Nash, as in the subject of a beautiful mind. You know, that one. Nash is actually a psychopathic schizophrenic. And he also... Still alive? A Doctor Who fan. John Nash is a Doctor Who fan. And it's been lampooned. So, that the Princeton dilemma thing has been lamping because and shot down because it only works if you've got 2 sociopaths. Well, it's a little bit different from that because what you do with game theory is that you have a iterated prisoner's dilemma where you have a past and a future. You know, the way the prisoner's dilemma is set up is that there are 2 prisoners. If one of them defects, they call it and sort of says the other one is guilty, turns the other one in, they get a reduced sentence. If both of them do it though, then they're in sort of really serious trouble. Both of them refuse to, if both of them refuse to cooperate they'll get off lightly. But because they can't hear each other, you can't guarantee that the other person's not going to defect on you. And so even though the best outcome for everyone is that neither of you defect, because that's unenforceable. In fact, you kind of have to defect. But once you reiterate it, once you meet one another again and again and again, do you know what I mean? Then you've got the prospect of revenge and payback and gratitude and all of those kinds of things, and you start to be able to model, uh, you know, like animal behaviour in a sort of social context because reiterating the prisoner's dilemma allows there to be sort of past and future and stuff like that. So it's a kind of thought technology that enables us to think about how kind of social animals interact with one another. So anyway, it's a theme. That's exactly right. So it's a flip-flop thingy. It's a flip-flop thingy. In a story which is about, you know, human evil, the prisoner's dilemma, which is like an atom of human behaviour is quite a good thing to reference, I think. On the topic of human evil, many of the main characters in the story have had their bloodlines touched by Fenrick. So Captain Soren, Commander Millington, Dr. Judson, um, and Kathleen and Ace, of course. And so the implication there is, of course, you know, Millington is evil. Millington is planning to indiscriminately kill with chemical weapons. You know, there's no doubt about that and all he cares about is winning the war. The Russian soldiers who are guarding the doctor and ace as they come out of the tunnel at one point, 1000000s and seals them in despite the fact there would have been plenty of time for them to get out and still steal the hemovores in, but he's like, no, I've got what I want. I've got what's important. Soren and Judson, of course, become possessed by Fenrick and become evil. And Ace is kind of tempted into evil several times. So by Gene and Phyllis, for instance, by Fenrick at the end different forms of evil rules. But just she... She also inadvertently helps Fenwick twice. Like, by telling Judson that the final inscription is a computer program is a logic diagram. The greatest sin is pride, isn't it? She actually has Pertwe's pride in knowledge of itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Have halftime score, you know, pair of Vale, several million, you know, rest of the universe nil. And then, of course, she explains to Soren how to defeat the chess game. But it's also the doctor's pride. Because the doctor doesn't think that anyone could possibly understand what his plan is, so he doesn't explain it to anyone. Because I can't play this man. games, he said, in Ghost Life. Because, of course, the doctor later says, so long as Johnson doesn't realise that the final description's a commuter program and A says, you should have told me. And then if he had told her what the chess move was, but said don't tell anyone, anyone can be Fenrick. Fenrick can possess people. She wouldn't have run in and said, hey, Soren, I know what the solution is because even if Fenrick's not Soren at that point. He could still be around, you know. As much as the doctor has been training ace. There is still a lack of respect for her own intelligence and intuition. Like when she says I can distract the guard. He's actually really dismissive that she could possibly help in this situation. He's just, oh, how? Is that not just being 900 years old and having someone with you who is really a speck of life's distance? I think he's forgotten about sex. But also, there has to come a time when there is an experiential gap in a relationship or friendship where you kind of think, okay maybe this person is as experienced or as knowledgable as I am, but I'm choosing to be with them and I have to trust them. I have to trust that when they say to me, I can do something that they can do it. you know, and I think a big problem in this story and it is referred to and pointed out in the plot, is that the doctor isn't trusting Ace with his plans. And we discussed it last week with Ghostlight, how he just kind of throws her into this house, knowing it disturbs her rather than saying, we're going to go back to that place and we're going to find out what's gone wrong. Same with Greater Show in the Galaxy. Like the doctor's like, oh, I've heard things about the psychic circus. I hate clowns. Okay, we're definitely going now. I've learned to pick my mouth. They sound great. Oh, okay. Well, someone else then. It's like, it's like, you know what I really hate, doctor? I really hate cake. Banana lounges and long cocktails with fruit and then they terrify me. I really hate Spanish men. You know what I really hate, doctor. Firefighters in cybersuits. Let's not let's not go near any of those. It's amazing you didn't start gaming like that. This all comes to a head because she calls him out on it in the 2nd last story of the classic series. She actually rounds on him and yells at him and says you're treating me like a fool. You knew it was a, and she, you know, she says when she finds out that she shouldn't have told Judson about the computer program. She says, why didn't you tell me? And then in this speech. It's like, you knew about this, you didn't tell me, you know, you don't respect me, you can't be bothered to include me in your plans. You know? Yeah, and the amazing thing is, unlike, say, later on, sometimes Rose Tyler, who makes it all about, you didn't, you know, you didn't tell me what about me. A says you can't be bothered telling anyone. You know, she's not just fighting for herself there. She's fighting for the people who are caught in the crossfire of this. And it's another electric scene between the 2 of them because she's screaming in his face. And I know some people have criticised Sylvester for the evil since the dawn of time speech, but I think it really gets across that he's talking about a concept that cannot be adequately described in words. He's searching for the way to describe it and his despair when he says somehow the evil force survives because the implication is there that the good force hasn't survived in the same way. And I think like to think it's just dispersed, like all the other... Yeah, yeah. whereas the evil has kind of stayed together. But he's really sad, like the way he chooses to play it. And I've said, like I don't think Sylvester's very convincing at playing anger. And I do think that there are bits of that scene that aren't that great. He's been a lot better as he's gone on. And certainly there's an admixture of sadness in the way he plays that scene and I like that a great deal. Someone we haven't mentioned, of course, you know, we've talked about Dinsdale, Landon, Dr. Johnson. Pig in the middle. And Reed. Sorry. Anne Reed. No, we didn't call her pig in the middle. It was a series that Landon did. He was kind of known as a one note performer. I think he's really top notch as it was when he's in the chair, but once he stands up and plays Fenrick, he really nails this. You know, part of the thing is that he hated the contact lenses and he found them really off putting. And so you can see Fenrick blinking all the time. because he's really worried about these contact lenses. And of course, at the very end, he's gone blind, you know, because he can't cope with that chess game that they have. And I think he's really terrific and he's got those terrifying capped teeth or whatever the hell they are that makes his smile really scary. And don't interrupt me while I'm eulogising. Oh, I just love the idea that Dr. Judson seems to somewhat still be in there because when he confronts Crane, Fenrick says you've always been treating me like a child, but then changes back to, I think Dr. Judson would have wanted this. Yeah, it's the only death that he really seems to take a great deal of pleasure in. I do like the line, you know, when it comes to death. quantities so much more satisfying than quality. Oh my god, is Eric sane? I got the same haircut. The whole time. You know, his plan is to kill everyone. You know, we've all been there. there now. And of course, oh, no, let's talk more about Anne Reid. Because, of course, talk about Anne Reed. She is spectacular. We own her. She's really good Yeah, and then she comes back as a very own kind of vampire, of course, in Smith and Jones. It's wonderful. She's so tremendous. She really is so such a underrated episode, is it? Yeah. She and Alfred Lynch's Millington and Dinsdale landed have one of the best three-way scenes of the 80s for me, which is some... I'm curious as to where this is going. Some respect for the wheelchair, please. He's an invalid. And Landon responds, I'm not an invalid. I a cripple. I'm also a genius, so shut up a pair of you, which I think is a wonderful lie. And yeah, just kind of emphasises Johnson's frustration at the fact that, okay, yeah, my legs don't work, but I am still the smartest man in the nearest 50 miles, so shut up. But he's constantly being hauled around and patronised and things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. and reads character. You know, especially language professor. There's a layer depressant. And the mother? She was Daniel Craig's love interest. Oh goodness. No, the age difference was the plot point. Yes, and the paper straws. Yeah. Whereas now Daniel Craig gets asked what it's like acting with an older woman who is 3 years older than him and he takes them to bloody task on it. What do you mean by older? I'm only 3 years younger. Are you saying that because she's a woman? Well, yes. In exactly that voice? Daniel Craig is Lady Bracknell. So what do we think of Millington? Alfred Very, very good. And the reason it seems kind of odd and not quite there. It is odd. And the one clashing thing is the moustache because that was against naval regulations. You actually weren't allowed to sport a moustache if you were in the Navy. You could have a beard. Yeah, yeah, no facial hair. But it's because he was playing Hitler. And they were doing this. This is actually how they were cracking the codes before the enigma, which took a long time coming, Colossus, I should say which was before that. took a long time coming and actually getting onto it. No, they were doing it by supposition. And by playing as the enemy. To think is the Germans thing. And they were going quite mad doing it. Yeah of course. An interesting point I found out during the week about Nazism in popular culture. There's a lot of it. Unfortunately. A few years after this, a very famous video game was made called Wolfenstein 3D, which was one of the 1st really popular mainstream 1st person shooting games. And so you were an American soldier trapped in a Nazi fortress trying to escape. The original game manual didn't use the word Nazi. It used the word Germans. And one of the programmers said, I had to spend an hour explaining to the team that not all Germans were Nazis. 2 words were not interchangeable. They were at the time, but yes. Well, the point he was trying to make was, okay, yes, everyone in German, it was on the Nazi side, if you like, but there was resistance even within Germany. And if you just say Nazi equals German. Even the Nazis were not all Nazis. Look at Rudolph Hess would very much oppose to Hitler's programmer entity to the other officers' programs. who can say I was going look, we don't know their position on genocide, but it seemed to be, it seemed to have a bit of momentum. at the time. Yes. But that's the thing. Ace walks into Millington's office. office and says immediately, oh you know, he's secretly a Nazi and the doctor's like, no, he's just pretending to be one to, but it's called acting, dear. Yeah, you look at Indiana Jones. It's just like, yep, Nazis are villains. And Nazis are villains, but reducing them to just a villain and often a comic villain in popular culture is part of what has led to the softening of how we perceive Nazism to do. Oh, the softening and the welcoming of how we see fascism now. Well, I think we seem to be quite comfortable with it as a culture don't we? Well, I mean, there's enough time to forget. You know, like, I think that Doctor Who did well to avoid having actual Nazis. I mean, we had the comedy stupid Nazis in Sylvan Nemesis, but they weren't World War II. No, and let's not go to Let's kill Hitler. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. What were they thinking? I think that was just Moffatt's exhaustion writ large. I should say, yeah. That's what I was saying earlier with, you know, if they had have had the Nazis in this story, It would have been impossible to present them in any other way than just rent a crowd villainy when the actual horror. of Nazism needs to be better explored. And it's actually, Terrence Dix manages to do that in Timeworm Exodus, you know, he really shows what it's like under Nazi occupation. good little scorcher of a book, isn't it? well, yeah. I just don't think you can do it on television. No, I just think it can't be done. Unless you're doing hello, hello. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, Doctor Who is not that kind of programmed. Yeah, when it tries to be, it doesn't get there. No, that's right. Let's kill Hitler. But, you know, one week it's robot lizards and the next week it's Nazis. I mean we just can't possibly do that. Whereas when it has characters standing in for fascists like the regime on Terra Alpha. Because it's somewhat removed from reality, it actually becomes a better commentary than if you just had fascists. Because it's the triumph of the tropes, isn't it? Yeah. It's really, you know, really, we don't have Lenny Reef and start working on the show. So you can't actually venerate or elevate fascism too, to its true its true power, which is, I don't even comfortable saying this. It's purist aestheticism. Fascism is, if you like, is an ideal, no less powerful than the opus day notions in high Catholicism. It's about the purity of a concept, and they both use books of Zion as basis for some of their ideologies. We're talking about the absolute, um, sinequine on of destiny of truth, of vision, of, it's quite shiny and spectacular to people who are prone to that sort of thing, you know, who tend to support the Australian ballet and um, like funding to be removed from other forms of the arts. But then again, those people have also been known to turn around and change the chess pieces and come to good in the end, haven't they, Mr. Brandis? They have. So can we, while we're on that topic, talk about the Russians? Yes, please. They are pretty, aren't they? Well, they're not Russian. So there's... There's Tomic Bork. There's Captain Soren. Peter Sharkovsky? Yep, it really is. As Sergeant Prozarov, who's my favourite. The Shinen is Marek Anton, who's my favourite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not painted blue for this one. We'd all be quite happy seeing him blue in this one. And Petrosian. who's Mark Conrad. So they're the 4 named. Petrosian dies quite early, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think he's the one with the papers on the beach. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's the sergeant who gets killed quite. Yeah, that's that's Prozorov. Yeah, yeah. And we've got, I think, in Captain Soren, another believable romantic interest for Ace. Many of us, I would say. Again, it's very underwritten, but it is played quite nicely, and I think Mark Ayres gives it a, there's a little romance theme. I do love Marcos, but he doesn't give us much choice in what emotion to feel for anything he's scoring. I actually don't care about it. It's Doctor Who. It's melodrama. It's the only thing I would criticise him for is that especially with ghost light, going back to how he scores in anything, is that you're made to feel this in this scene. But I think the reason it works for this and the reason it was so beguiling and so subsuming on the 1st viewing is you don't have time to keep up. But that's how people were living in 1943. There really isn't time. Everything has to be done very quickly. Every emotional exchange, every thought, every, you just didn't have. Yeah, they didn't sleep very much. They constantly knew, this might be the last day or the last moment. So in the levels of cortisol and anxiety, are there. And it's reflected in the pace of this story. There is a problem. Nicholas Parsons. let's get back to Nicholas Parsons in a 2nd because you alluded to this before. There is, of course, on the DVD, a longer version, and the way it seems to have worked is there's more material than they can fit into the episodes. And so what they do is they cut out the middle of scenes and they switch from scene to scene. And so episode one is very bits and pieces and a little bit hard to follow and the reconstructed version on the DVD is much more leisurely and much more kind of comprehensible and satisfying. And it's something that we've said about the whole caramel era is he's not that good at working out how much can be done in 25 minutes on television. And so everything tends to be overwritten and then sort of chopped down. So I do think episode one is a bit unsatisfactory for that reason. Nicholas Parsons. Nicholas Parsons, who knew? extraordinary. Now, he did start off as an actor. He actually started off as a straight man, just after the war with Haynes, with Arthur Haynes as the 2nd banana, and then his, one of his 1st TV work was with Jerry Anderson, blue cars ads in the 50s. He was a marionette, wasn't he? He was a painted silver-faced thing with his wife, Denise, who then did the voice of Zelda many years later on Terror Hawks. Um, and Parsons did do voices for Anderson on and off over the years. Oh, on sale of the century, which was from, you know, now from Norwich, sales of the century. And if you've been to England, you know just how funny that actually is. But then, of course, since the year I was born, so it's now 50 years of just a minute. But he's seen as a sort of lovely silly duffer in a striped blazer and a cravat, and then he comes along and he does this with poignancy and subtlety, and deep concern, even with all lots of silly dripping blue painted latex coming at him through a false door. He can still carry it off. His silent silent moment, which is really one of the very few probably only 2 or 3 still moments in this story, is when he delivers Paul's letter to the Corinthians. one Corinthians 13. That's the one. It's such an extraordinary moment. I really like him. I think they cut away from that, just a little bit early because they're worried about time. You know, the part is clearly written for someone much younger like the dialogue makes it clear. Yeah, because I think the dialogue makes it clear that he's recently taken over from his father as vicar. look at Prince Charles. Yeah, but Miss Hardacre, Miss Hardacre, you know, seems to be hectoring him as if he's a young man who's not as good as his father. Kind of like that an older person is having to play younger, just because that does happen. I also think the crisis of faith works a little bit better with a younger person as well, who's likely to be a little bit more absolute. Well, you know, like I just can't think that an English Anglican clergyman of his age would believe anything very much. I mean, you've never really known love except in its most esoteric or ideal forms. It's, you know, and then to be of an age now where that is possibly passed as far as he's seeing it. And then to see this. I think that it can work for any age because the themes are so powerful and so base. Yeah, I do think I do think he's great. And I do think that scene, which is sort of strange, where he goes back to the double gates where, um, The Russians and the hemivores have been locked behind those double doors, and he deliberately stands in front of it because he wants to test his faith. Like, he's been told that faith will repel hemovores. And so he actually does it specifically to do that. I don't think he's being heroic. I don't think he's trying to hold him for his back. I think he's trying to test himself. And he nearly succeeds, but when the girls say there's no such thing is good in human beings, there's no good in you, there's no good anywhere. His faith collapses because he knows that's the case. He's in the middle of this war where the British have been firebombing German cities and he can't believe in good any longer. And so, you know, he fails. And again, Miss Hardacre's kind of right. Miss Hardacre criticises Wainwright for not having enough faith and criticises the girls for being immoral and she's right on all counts. In terms of Wainwright. There's something to be said for having a younger actor in the role, but I think it also works if you look at him as someone who until this bloody war came along, he was doing absolutely fine and had no doubts about anything, but yes, it's the violence of the war that sets it off. But in terms of younger actors being considered, Jonathan Morris who was Cheila in Snake Dance was considered, as was Christopher Villiers of the King's Demons, but also considered, were some lesser known actors, Christopher Eccleston, and Peter Capaldi. Ooh. This is a few years, as we now know, before Peter Capelli auditioned for the part of Captain Sisco on Deep Space 9. Wow. So there you go. Considered for Millington was James Warwick of Earthshock. And considered for Johnson were Edmund Hardwick. Oh, very good. a.k.a. Dr. Watson. David McCallum. And Martin Jarvis. God, they were going to ex Hugh Martin Jarvis again, were they? Yes, please. With a rubber glove on his head, paint him silver. They were going to pry him out of a fibreglass ant and point him in the direction of the camera. And he was playing the moth in that one, so it was uncomfortable for everyone concerned. Now, also in terms... Also in terms of casting, this story, Ghostlight, and I think Time and the Rani are possibly the only Sylvester McCoy stories are 2 only feature Caucasian characters, but this story does actually have one black performer. Yes, however, however... He's a stunt, dude. He's a he's a stunt man. And he's specifically the soldier underwater who opens his eyes when Johnson reads the inscription because the BBC requested a diver, he was sent out, but they couldn't find any historical evidence of black soldiers having served in the Russian army at the time. So they whited him up. What? Really? Oh, very thick grease paint when he's underwater, yeah. And apparently, by all reports, he was absolutely fine with the logic of that and understood what it was and what have you. But we have also recently had a similar conversation, haven't we with Mark Gatas. in his script, the Empress of Mars, which of course features, I believe, 2 black soldiers. Yeah, and Bo Derek's Dreadlock. Mark Gate has actually expressed concern, saying, were there black soldiers in the expeditionary wars and found out, oh, yes, they bloody were Markham, then was absolutely fine with it. And I think it's extraordinary that he kind of mentioned that in an interview, but made sure to say in the interview, but I found out I was wrong and that was my assumption based on my view of history. It's a pre-90s. We have to remember, even back when Star Trek Voyager premiered in 95. A lot of high-end fandom. across the board, as in literary people who are also fans saying, how can we have a black Vulcan? It's token cast. They're made up. They can be... It was the whole thing. What was the whole? Yeah, it was the whole thing of actually having, you know, and we now accept that we have women playing Hamlet and indeed even greater roles in British drama. But yes, but then it was really still questioned. Now, Richard, I know you haven't seen Star Trek Discovery yet, but I don't... saving it for under the Christmas tree. But I don't think it's too surprising for me to say that the lead actress is a black woman. Yes, and she's raised by, I've already wolved this out. Yeah. Yeah. by gods who build volcanos. Some ridiculous comment I read on YouTube. literally said, we already had Janeway and she's a woman and we already had Cisco and he's a black. So why do we need this character? Wow. Yeah. It's called inclusivity because we have to, because we're not getting across the board, you're not getting representation. No, exactly. So therefore, we're doing it in this. And the easiest ways to do this is science fiction because it's always been about what should be or what might be or what, for God's sake, is the place you do it. I mean, like 60 Star Trek is nowhere near as progressive as people give it credit for. Although they did have a pash. But for the time. Yeah, just having a black woman on screen getting dialogue was amazing, even though she had a thimble in her ear most of the time. And according to George Decay, Jean Roddenbury did say to him, I would consider making Saul Lugay, but I'm having enough of a fight getting you and Nichelle on the screen. I'm really sorry. I don't know if that's not post thinking because, but anyway, let's give, I'd like to think might be more for the films. My understanding is that that came about when you see Sulu in the captain's chair. That's right, Su Tech. Yeah, I could be wrong on that. But a lovely discovery related moment, again, not a spoiler, at the premiere, Nichelle Nichols and William Shatner were there. And of course, Sanequa Martin Green, who plays Commander Burnham as Michelle Yogen. watched Nichelle in Star Trek as a kid and so was saying to her, you know, you were amazing, et cetera, et cetera. And Michelle's response apparently was well kid. all yours now. Enjoy. And there's this amazing photo of the 2 of them, just our mouths open wide in thrilled pleasure at beating each other. And William Shatt, they're just in the middle. So it's like Sanequa Martin Green, Michelle Nichols and some bloke on Twitter. angry, angry bloke from Twitter. I do think that Doctor Who is now kind of dealing with this problem a lot better insofar as I think thin ice makes it explicit where they just say, no, actually your view that the past is white is a whitewash and they were always black people, but they weren't mentioned. It's not that we're suddenly inserting black people into a history that was full of white people. It's that you've erased them from history. we're going to put them back. And I actually think I was a little bit disappointed by the Mark Gatas thing because the question of whether there were really black people in an expeditionary force is, in fact, much, much less important than should there be black people in this Doctor Who episode. And like, no one thinks that Doctor Who is... has to be historically accurate, unless you think there really were sort of pteraleptils around, you know, in England's history. Should they forge underwater as well? So anyway, I know that we've strayed widely off topic, but I am sort of slightly disappointed by the white face, you know, Russian crew member story, I'm afraid. In a way, it's kind of heartening that they didn't say to the stunt agency. Make sure you send a white actor, but on the other hand, they probably just assumed... Well, he had a divers. He had a scuba diver's certificate. Well, that's not all that common, certainly not in the 80s. It wasn't. The fact that we have so much variance in the drama visually as well as emotionally. It's a tidal play. I really love that it begins and ends metaphorically and very significantly in the water. And yes, Sophie did do her own big dive off the rocks. No, Silv didn't push her. of her own accord. I was actually a little bit anxious about that because she is diving from rocks into the water. She was really bitter for ages that she said, no one can see it's me. tunic down because me knickers are showing and no one can say which is again is another point when she does that whole ridiculous speech with the time in flux and a 2nd of a movement. 1943. She just kind of said, do you want to see me pants, mate? And it would have been long. Well, he does say you promised. So really, do you want to see me pants, mate, did figure into the conversation a bit that we didn't see. I do love in that scene, though. Are you looking for someone? No, you. Because that is both beguiling and flirty, but also... A little bit dismissive. completely diminishing of him as a person. Yeah, but as a man. Yep, you've got a job, mate. And you know, something else I really love is when they're running away and Soren's been released. Sora just gives her this look of, you are amazing. And it's a slightly corny scene, but she plays it so well. A lot of this is corny because life is corny. And in these moments and this, the sense of urgency in this story I had not seen in any other Doctor Who story, apart from perhaps the massacre, never seen the sense of pain. I actually joking that, but the sense of pace and drama and the constant fighting against the onset of despair and its despair itself that will destroy us. The only reason we can keep going is faith and hope. I'm getting a whole songs of praise thing from this season. I really am. Well, when Kathleen received her telegram that Frank's been careful. Oh, yes. When Ace finds her, again, it's desperation. It's like, what's wrong? What's happened? Tell me, I'll do anything. Yes, we've seen what that means. Yeah, we, yes. And she doesn't even finish reading the telegram before she just grabs Kathleen and won't let go of her. When you actually see that scene. I think there's a little bit of a spoiler about their relationship because Ace actually comes in at that hug. I think it's a bit ladylike. Underneath. Yes, that's what I mean, right underneath, yes. It looks like Kathleen is actually hugging Ace, like comforting Ace. because of course she's her grandmother. How thick is that? She still doesn't work it out. I mean come on. Okay, I know it's necessary. I'd like to think that the reason that she says, go back and stay with my nan. I mean, really, have you still not worked it out? But she does. I'd like to think that the flat that she goes to is empty because the people are just away or there've been a bomb venom? And it just happens within that literally probably 24 hour cycle. She's moved in and the neighbours don't say anything because everything's in turmoil. And they're all doing it up indoors during the blitz anyway. Everyone was at it like knives and sixpence rolling across the floor. Nobody really knew what was going on. I actually assumed that her nan was her paternal grandmother. Yeah, yeah. But does that make sense too? Well, I don't know. I like to think she just came into an empty flat and started a new life. Yeah, that's how I read it as well. But, okay, Richard, you say A should pick up on that. In 1989, or I suppose 1990 here when you were watching. Did you pick up on it before Fenrick revealed it? Oh, gosh, it's hard to say that because we've seen, I can't remember. And I was coming back after it was I was at uni and so it was like 2nd or 3rd year and having, and we just loved this so much. I think you're just involved with the narrative. Look, yes, we all knew who she was because that's how these stories play out. But we're very forgiving of the characters involved in it. And you're right. There's so much tension going on. She probably can't be she's got a lot happening for the young for a young lass in this story. You know what? I think maybe if she hadn't found out the baby's name until the baby was leaving because that scene early on with like her name's Audrey, oh, I hate it. my mum's name. That doesn't really add anything. It's a bit on the nose, actually, isn't it? It's like, you know, if as she's bundling into the car face, but I don't even know her name. Audrey. And then, of course, Ace doesn't have time to think she's being chased down by Gene and Phyllis and has to have faith. And it could be Fenrick who said, Audrey, that's your mother's name. And we could have been told the name Audrey in a previous story but then again, this story was designed to go out 1st this year which is why Sylvester's wearing the duffle coat. Yes, and why we get the... the reveal of his new little outfit. But that's also, do you know what was Silv Stuffel coat? He wore that on location previous year to keep warm. So you just said, oh, I'll just keep it in. I love it. Oh, so it's there to reveal the new brand. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And also, it has slightly floppier pockets in his field jacket, so you can see his script page as well, Italy. Because as he describes it, you know, if the left pocket's fuller it's earlier in the shoot. And if the right pocket's fuller, it's later in the shoot because I just moved the pages. This season was meant to be broadcast as Fenrick Battlefield Ghostlight survival. So, therefore, when Ace is talking to Audrey about, there was a house where near where I grew up in Perivale that gave me the creeps. It was meant to be foreshadowing, whereas here it becomes a reference to last week. Thankfully, it still works. Still really does work. But it mostly works because of Corey Pullman. Kathleen is just amazing as a volt face for older to play against. Yeah, you meet her, and then 2 seconds later, Millington's barking at her, and she has that wonderful rambling bit of, oh, I thought my cousin, this, that, the other, and she just really sells her character in that moment. I love Silv, almost picking Sophie up and saying, no, no, no, we're not arguing. We're not going to hit the base commander, Soph. And we have the betrayal scene. We've already had earlier on in the story and it's kind of there as an Easter egg. It's not essential to the plot, but when the hemovores attack the church, the doctor says under his breath, Susan, Ian, Barbara Vicki, Stephen, Dodo, Katerina, I don't know. Sharon from Black Castle. But that's the idea that the doctor has faith in his companions from the old... Do you know, I actually only think he gets as far as... And then he just says faith, faith, faith, because Sylvester couldn't be bothered now. Yeah, it's a good list of companions. Yeah, so we have that idea that the doctor has faith in his companions, which the new series has written into the characterisation. You know, most recently we've seen Peter Capaldi saying to Bill his doctor saying to Bill, there are 7000000000 idiots on this planet, but occasionally there's someone like you and that's why I put up with the rest of them. You know? So Ace then turns around at the end of this and has faith in the doctor. And unfortunately, the game is given away a bit because we cut to Sylv, and he says the hemovore can't penetrate her psychic force. Didn't you just say, could you come just come and stand over here behind me? Could you just go out and fetch me something from out there every 2nd time? That would have been bad. Let me just destroy you utterly. That is actually the most heinous thing that happens to her, I think, in the whole 3 years is he's bringing down of her. And doesn't self-play it well. Do you think he meant it just a teensy bit? I don't quite buy it. You know what I mean? Like, and it would be good. I was very careful watching it yesterday because, you know, it is so pivotal and it would be so great if it totally worked, but it really needs to be believable and it's not really believable sadly. Yeah, I think that cutting to silve saying the hemophore can't get through. That undermines it a bit because we then know what he's doing. Whereas if it just had it been me a killer. Yeah. Because we've had that big lecture from her earlier saying you'd never tell anyone anything. And because when she said, I'll distract the guard, he's so dismissive of her. I think if we didn't get an insight into his mind there, it would have been a bit more believable. Yes, I agree. For what it is and what we get on screen. I think Sylv and Sophie perform it very well. His coldness when he's saying, you know, killer, she's an emotional cripple, of course I know she's your plaything. You think I didn't know? It's really well done. It is really scary and we've often said it's hard for doctor companions to get real emotion into their performance because they're not really given the stuff. But when Ace collapses. You know, Sophie gives it a really, really good go in a bizarre and unreal situation. I actually like it better. I think her best bit is where she yells at him when he tries to drag her out and then she kind of remonstrates with him afterwards for what he said. I think she does really well there. And I also think Sylvester's, you know, sorrow at having had to do that. as well is really good. Like, I think he does a great job. of that. Yeah, I love the emotional connection, but it only works because they've had 2 seasons to bring this together. Yeah, absolutely. I actually think that Ghostlight coming before Fenrick works better than Ghostlight coming after Fenrick, because this scene where he breaks her down and she forgives him. If 2 weeks later, he had have taken her to that haunted house, done it again. you've done it again. Where... Exactly. Exactly. Whereas, you know, we're given the impression that he respects her more now, she dives into the water and comes up as a woman with the shadows of her past dispelled. Yeah, literal catharsis, a literal cleansing, yes. Yeah. You know, there's something slightly off about that ending with dangerous undercurrents. Not anymore. Oh, everyone's dead. It is just like that. I actually think that speech is a little bit too on the nose as well. Yeah, it feels hurried, yeah. Or sort of overwrought. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's a little bit sort of kids, they are little underwater. Who knows what she was up to down there? But it sort of clears the emotional decks in that relationship. And so for the final story, They just go back and visit, you know there's no manipulation. There's no hidden agenda. They're just going back to see how aces mates are getting on in Perivale after all this time. Yeah, exactly. Like the evil they discover that's going on there, they literally just discover when they land and it's the doctor going, there's something weird going on. which is what we want. People who do enjoy that scene with Silv and Sophie should really listen to Big Finisher's adaptation of love and war. Oh, yes, it's good. which ends with another scene where Ace confronts the doctor and it just had me in floods. They've had 30 years to work on these characters. Yes. As we record. It's the 30th anniversary of Time and the Rani going out. So they had... They had 30 years to work on these characters. And yeah, in in love and war. There's, I won't spoil it, but there's just one question that Ace asks the doctor. And he gives her an answer that she cannot accept and she explains why she cannot accept it. And all the way through, Sophie is screaming. And yet it's hard to perform through a scream. But she manages it so well and he is in such anguish. And it's it's kind of showing maybe he doesn't mend his way so much after this. They do revisit that theme too in the god complex, don't they? where the doctor tries to destroy Amy's faith in him because that's what the Minotaur thing feeds on. And I think that's a little bit more successful, but partly because the relationship between Amy and the doctor has been a bit more toxic and ambiguous. Yeah. Yeah. No, the gold complex definitely feels like an homage to the new adventures into this season. And also the Naimon. And Paul Cornell, friend of, well, other podcasts. Well, then, let's not, we're about to go on a final trip back to Perivale. So, do come back next week for survival. In the meantime, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety com, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts. Please leave a 5 star review and FTE podcast on Twitter. Over on Bondfinger. We are just about to bid farewell to Pierce Brosnan as James Bond. You can find that at Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts, and Bondfinger Cast on Twitter. Until next time, may no one plants seeds in your face, which sprout in storage. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. I've just realised that the VAC formed boob walls are actually the TARDIS time monster walls just turned around. That was Flight through Entirety, starring Nathan Bodderly, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells. This episode, Wall of Nipples, was recorded on the 30th of September 2017. The next episode will be released on the 5th of November. According to Doctor Who Facts, after the curse of Fenrick, only three stories have been set during the Second World War, the Doctor Dances, Planet of Rationing, and the terror of Dame Vera Lynn. What do you think? Did we want to talk about the hemophores at all? They're blue. They're blue. It's a blue lady. Jeez. I think it's actually Denise, um, Parsons. I just think it's Nicholas Parsons wife. She was painting up blue, like colours before. As we know, as Barry always said, the colour for monsters is blue. Yeah, that's right. And, of course, 2 of Sylvester's. Sylvester's 2 sons are in there. Are they really? They play it blue. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joe and... Cho and look them up. Radcliffe. James Radcliffe. James, I think is one of them. No, not Jim and Joe. Percy? He's Percy. He's Percy. Percy. H Smith. They're simple names. This will go after the credit. Yeah, I think so. simple names for simple. Yes, yes. There's too much in this. You know, we can start talking about. The runes and how, I don't want to talk about China's translation. So let's do, let's do Flight through Entirety, the worst idea in the universe where we do an hour-long podcast about Cursor Fenrik. Every week for the rest of our lives. Well, we, there's probably enough to talk about for if we do 4 or 5 of these, dear listener. No, only 4 because otherwise they won't give us the money to do 14 next year, right? That's right Okay, doesn't she? Let's wrap it up.