Thank You Very Much for Listening, and Good Night

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast who suddenly realised that we're going along with Patrick Troughton's advice in 3 years is a very good stint. I'm Brendan. I'm Nathan I'm Todd. I'm Sidney Newman's reboot as a woman. So this is... Brian Blesser, because I'm all known. We'll read at the moment. So black as a woman. Oh, sorry. We're taking that. Wait, the tradesman's entrance. Sorry, Brendan. So today's episode is a special retrospective on the classic series and also on our time that we've spent together over the last 3 years. And while this is something we've been discussing for months, I would also like to give a special shout out to friend of the podcast, Bob Gilby, who, when I saw him to record the marriage equality video we did together, actually said to me, you know what it'd be great? A retrospective where you look at the whole history of Doctor Who and I could come along and host it. Well, he's living in America now. We waited till he left. And but I did also say to him, Bob, that is fantastic idea. But I think if we had you on as a special guest before we had James on. He'd murdered. I think that would be rather bad form. And he said, oh, that's a good idea. But if you want me to host and it's like, I certainly don't object to that. But so thank you, thank you, Bob, for suggesting it. And when I last spoke to him a few days ago. He settling very nicely into his new home with his lovely wife and child. James just here. He was settling nicely into that wheelchair with the gaffer tape over his mouth. Silence is golden, but gaffer tape is silver. Isn't that right, James? That's right. Because he's, of course, our pertly of the moment. Okay, so I'm going to throw to Todd, who is the compare for this episode, as he has been for all of our retrospectives, as he started on the podcast before coming in on the Pertwee era. Of course, covering the whole Colin Baker era. And thing, I think, Collins greatest champion. Todd, over to you. Oh, thank you for those kind words. It's been great to be here for such a long time, perhaps not quite at the beginning, but you know, it's yeah, wonderful. All right. So it's the whole damn thing. It's the whole damn thing. So we've got a lot to cover. Settle back and relax. And we've just finished the Megani, right? Doctor Who? Rather short. Oh, we're still being hiatus, aren't we? I'm leaving. Now that you've seen the Bagani, right? What do you take away from the McGann era? Don't do it again. What's the Magane era, though? Is it is it the audios as well? We know it's, we know it's canon because they're name checked. Yeah, there's no such thing as cannon. It isn't Star Wars. It's not a Star Wars podcast. One of the things that we said about Piers Brosnan is that he appears to have been grown in a lab in order to play James Bond. There's a sentence in which Paul McGann is kind of like everyone sort of half remembered ideas of what the doctor had been like. And he certainly brings a lot of charm to the role, but there's something a bit generic about him, I think. Yeah, which doesn't get redressed until he appears in the audios. Well, couldn't be in that thing. He's hardly on screen for it anyway. And he sort of said in interviews that, well, 1st of all, the movie was such a whirlwind. that, you know, there wasn't much time to think about character, but it said, you know, 3 years later, by the time he came around to the audios, 4 years later, I think I should say, he sort of thought a bit more about the character and got to play it, more how he wanted, and the way he describes it is. He doesn't quite see them as the same character. He sees his audio doctor as he puts it, the madcamp cousin of the TV version. Good description. Have you listened to all of them? I haven't listened to all of the Dark Eyes, Doom Coalition, and now time war. I have, but not the new time will start. So I've listened to pretty much all of them again. Yeah, it really, as his character goes wrong, shows his strength and versatility as an actor. And I think I think it's kosher to talk at least about the early ones in terms of before the new series comes back because when Big Finish managed to get him, it was seen as a great coup, they could continue the series. It was the current doctor for 6 years, almost 5 years. And what was so amazing about those 1st 2 years he did with India Fisher was, you know, this was the closest to an official continuation of Doctor Who that we were going to get, and it does so much between the doctor and companion and with their relationship that the new series would emulate. significantly nod to. and we're not just talking about stories like Dalek or times of midnight, which did almost make it to screen one way or another. But I agree with you. Like, I mean, I really love the India Fisher. I mean, there's varying quality, but I love their relationship, and for me, that's what I've listened to, and then I sort of towards the end, I felt they were too variable, and then I didn't go on. Yeah. I think what becomes the problem after those 1st 2 years is kind of the problem that was starting to creep in later on in the new series with Billy Piper in that where does the character go after that 1st year? Where does, and spoiler alert, if you haven't heard the earlier Charlie Pollard audios, it's been 15 years. But spoiler alert, where do you go after she confesses her love for the doctor and he says it back? And the weird, the weird thing is, because of the kisses in the telly movie, the word romantic was constantly used to describe the 8th doctor and the romantic poets. And the romantic poet. Yeah, in the BBC novels, I believe, it's kind of like what they do in the new series. He snogs all his companions. Like he kisses Fitz Kryna. He kisses Sam, like Sam falls in love with him and that sort of thing. And, you know, he just runs around kissing people. It's kind of a defining part of his character. And that kind of works because the novels, I feel like the novels are more of a niche product than the audios simply because... When you're consuming a television show, It takes less effort than consuming an audio and when you're consuming an audio, it takes less effort than reading a book in terms of your imagination. So audio is kind of feel more real to me in that sense. It's due to me, actually, because I have a whole, there's a whole visual thing you put into it and you describe your own voices. It's interesting because I am with Brendan that in terms of the audio, they're much closer, whereas I find with the books as they go along, I find it much harder to visualise characters you've been introduced to, I haven't seen. Yeah, they get untidy too. book series. But what's wrong? Well, I kind of don't like either of them. You're listening to like through entirety. The reason I think is that they're no longer a shared experience that what we've been doing over the last 3.5 years is getting together and sharing our experience of Doctor Who. Sometimes we've watched it together, you know, particularly in the Sylvester McCoy era. But you can't listen to an audio with someone and you can't read a book with someone. And there's so much. I mean, if I was to say, I did listen to the early Charlie ones but if I was to say, all right, I want to experience the Magan era I just wouldn't have time. How at this stage, now that big finish has been putting out so much stuff, there is so much stuff that there's no way that my experience of the Magan era can be the same as anyone else's. And so, and that sort of social aspect, you know, that shared set of references that we have and that we revel in, you know, that's not possible with audio and books, I think. That's an excellent point because, of course, when I was a kid, no one at school watched Doctor Who. So my shared experience was when I started coming to Sydney Doctor Who Science Fiction Fan Club meetings and met all of you lot. and James and Neil and Brian and Simon and Stephen, all these people who are still a part of my life. And yeah. Yeah, I had never really thought of the books and the audio is not being a shared experience in the same way. And I suppose that's why we haven't. We haven't so much covered them. We, of course, did the missing season 23, but that is a shared fan experience because for years, you know, people poring over fanzines, like what was yellow fever and how to cure it? What was Mission to Magnus? That became a fan experience? Whereas even when Big Finish 1st started bringing out their audios they were very vocal fans saying, no, no, no, Doctor Who is only a TV show to me, which is a perfectly valid point of view, but it means from the beginning. They were a niche experience. They're also a niche fan group. I'm going to be quite age centric now because for us, and I think that does include Nathan and Todd, I thought. I might just teensiestly be the eldest in the room right now. But Doctor Who was always a shared experience between television and books. The only way we could see, we're pre-VHS culture. Target. Terrence Sticks was our cardinal, our matrix monitor, that dodgy bloke with the Dutch accent. Yeah, that's right. I mean, we collected the target novelisations because you could not collect DVDs or videos and you'd go to school and you talk about that with your friends, like what ones have I got, that sort of thing. You'd watch the repeats. That was our experience. So I think, Nathan, you're quite right. That expansion. It's a different experience with the megans. And so perhaps if we just narrow it down to what we see visually on the screen, which is the night of the doctor and the TV movie what would you, what advice would you give to you who fans coming in to watch this? Right? So if they were just watching the TV versions. Watching the TV movie, for example, like, you know. I think, I think it's a historical artefact, you know, really rather than something that you would, that you would enjoy watching, um, rather than something. time. It's almost your time. yeah. It's an evolutionary... Death track, isn't it? Say if you're like a new series fan, you've only watched the new series and you want to go back and you've decided to watch this. What sort of mindset would you be saying to them to sit down with it? Like, they're not going to be expecting the same thing from you as new who? There has to be some sort of like, after 10 seasons of New Who we've now had pretty much all of the original mythology back, and that's the thing that seems to be a real priority in the script to the telly movie. And so it would be less alienating, I think, than it would have been on 1st broadcast. And, you know, look, friend of the podcast, Simon said that there was a very definite through line from survival to the TV movie to Rose, that you can actually see some progression. Oh, hang on, including the TV movie. I would say survival to rose. Well, very definitely, but there is, there are things that the TV movie does contribute to the mix. And I struggled. We've only just recorded our commentary that we released last week and I did struggle to see what that might be, but certainly, you know, the changing nature of TV production and that kind of thing at least, and sort of a strong emphasis on the visual and a strong emphasis on relationships between the companions. You know, I think maybe that starts to come in there. So I think it is something that you could watch. I think, you know, if you are a big fan of the new series, that you should probably see it. Yeah, I actually think for fans of the new series, there's a lot more in the telly movie than there was for us in 1996. It is closer, isn't it? With the kisses. Thank you, Todd. We need to get... I can't tell, that was a major schism in fan. I remember. Oh my Lordy. I remember because I said during the commentary last week and I forgot to follow it up that, you know, the 1st 2 in the park when he realises who he is and she asked him to do it again. I had no problem with that because it's like the 1st the 1st one is he's very excited and the 2nd one, he's just like, oh, she wants me to do it again. All right. I don't know why, you know, play it like a screwball comedy. But the final one with the fireworks and whatnot is just Hollywood Drek. And in his novelisation, Gary changes it to a hug, which I think is a lot more meaningful. It's a lot more personal because that kiss, they're kind of like leaning over a lectern at each other. There's a football field between them. You know, there's nothing intimate about it. It's a special effect shot. Well, people did sort of see it as the Americanisation of Doctor Who around about the time you've got Scully and Mulder with their sort of chemistry and that kind of thing. And, you know, it was turning the doctor into a leading man. But you got to remember when Russell brings the show back. He doesn't want the doctor to be the sort of, I think his words are neutered public schoolboy, that he had always been. And so there is a real kind of take a drink, Frisson, you know between Rose and the doctor, Rose and Eccleston's doctor. You do have to take an archetype, though. The doctorate has always been, as we've often said, a singulaka of so many other good things. There's nothing new about Doctor Who. There was nothing new about any of Sidney Newman's thinking. And if we look considered Newman's ideas for the show, going right back. Very little of it progressed to the screen. Thankfully, just as in the Avengers. very little of his stuff actually came good. And the reasons we remember it. happenstance, cleverness, and in that Avengers Coast, Leonard White, or in our case, Ferdie Lambert or in this case, if we're still talking about the telly movie, What was it? Little moments between the actors that make it work. And I think I think a lot of what is good and recognisable in the telling movie is down to Matthew Jacobs, who was a fan. He had a familial involvement in the show, as we mentioned last week, son of Anthony Jacobs, who played Doc Holiday in the Gunfighters, and he had a real passion for it. And as you said last week, Richard, a lot of the kind of real shoehorned fan references in there actually came. They fit so well, don't they? actually came from Philip. Siegel, who, to his credit, I think he was trying to do what was JNT's downfall, which was a pease. So do you consider him to be your hero of the era if I put a question like that? Who is your hero of the era? The McGann era? Which is basically the telling me. Okay, well, you know, mentioning the Levines. It was Randy and Mark Loficier, who were the Levines on this script and who were sending him the notes, which ended up on screen. There was that emendation to the opening dialogue, the opening monologue, remember, that the doctor has 13 lives, and I think the original script said 12. What that was, when the doctor turns around to Grace in her condo and says, I have 13 lives, they have to add DR. mute the audio. Watch his lips. He says 12. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And the Lefisier's caught that and went. And the thing is, though, the thing is, yes, it's a role one. No one cares. We don't even care. Like, literally, maybe 100,000 people are part of the US audience and maybe a 1000000 people of the UK audience would have actually sat there and gone, well, I'm switching this off now. You've got it all wrong. I mean, so the officiers are your hero of the era. Oh, anti-heroes. starting with the anti-heroes thing. But if we're saying the McGann era, it's um, it's the great stuff that was done with Big Finish. And I think if we're talking about antecedents to the new show, the big finish audios are just as strongly, if not more so, because we have some of the writers involved now too, than this telly movie. This was just a little springboard, little push. In terms of my hero of the film, you know, I think Paul does a great job. And I did just praise Matthew Jacobs, but despite really the sort of fan wank attitude he took, he took to continuity. I do have to praise Philip Siegel because I've seen him in interviews and to him, this wasn't just, hey, I can make a really lucrative TV show. This was him going, this is a wonderful idea with potential. He worked in television, so he understood why the BBC had taken off the air. And one of the reasons they taken it off the air was they couldn't afford to make it as good as it should look because I think we were all in agreement that most of Sylvester's scripts were of a high quality let down by production values. But yeah, his attitude was, okay, if we need the money, I'm going to get the money. And frankly, if he wasn't passionate about it, he wouldn't have worked for 7 years across 4 different jobs trying to get it made. For me, it's whoever decided not to do a reboot. Look, I don't care about continuity. I think Doctor Who has an extremely loose continuity. I've said before, you know, regeneration is a stupid idea, but it's just enough to explain why we keep recasting the main role every 3 or 4 years. There is a continuity in the sense that it's existed as a single television show for sort of 50 something years and it's lovely to think that it was never rebooted, you know, like we can still refer to the macra if we want to because that's fun. you know. And so that through line. You know, the fact that in human nature we get to see all of those doctors for the 1st time, including McGann, you know, on the screen, and, you know, the fact that he can come back for the 50th anniversary and participate and, you know, bring something new to the show's mythology. I think that's really lovely. And so I would have hated for either the telemovie or the 2005 series to be a reboot. That would have been a shame. Um, It's kind of weird who decided to make it a continuation because the BBC wanted it to be a continuation, but Joe Wright and Alan Yentob were not keen to have Silv back because he was seen as his era was seen internally as being a failure. And why remind the audience that that happened? So there was lots of talk about bringing Tom Baker back for the 1st few minutes of the film. But again, it was Philip Siegel, who said, if we're bringing back an old doctor, we're making it a direct continuation, we owe that to the fans, we either either reboot it or... Yeah, well, McGann, it was McGann that was bringing him in saying he's my mate. He told me to run for this in the 1st place and say hello to you all, because the hanging gale, the sequel had seen. There was a whole lot of that happenstance coincidence and enemy action, as says in Goldfinger. Yeah, but, you know, it was, it was, began's doing the God. Well, that's very interesting, Brendan. And certainly, you know, I wouldn't have put Seagull up there as my hero. of the era but now that you've just said that, you know I'd certainly put him up there. The other person is McGann, who I think has very little to work with and does a great job. in the 70 odd minutes. He's actually on screen. I think he's extraordinary. He just looks like someone who isn't, as you've said, when you've had dinner with him yourself, and when other people have said, when they sat with him, he looks like someone who's just slightly uncomfortable with the whole idea of being a part of this, which is exactly what you want in an actor playing the doctor. I don't want someone to play it like Brian Blessed. Yeah, yeah. The impression we always get from Paul McGann is that he's very grateful that it's liked, but he doesn't quite understand what all the fuss is about. He's just he just goes on and says the words kind of thing. of how the doctor is supposed to be, which is muddling through. We will get that with the next doctor, obviously. Yes. But yeah, I can't I can't fault any of the 4 leads, and I consider the leads to be Paul, Daphne, Yee Yee, and Eric Roberts. And at the time, Eric Roberts was hated. Do you guys remember? Oh, yeah. And even I didn't like him, but now I think he actually brings a lot to that role. He brings lightness and campiness and we need some of that. It's taking itself very seriously. You know, and I think something else it brings is, you know, the doctor is a very British hero. He's drinking tea. He has jelly babies. He's wearing a frock coat. And the master in this is a very American villain. You know, he's dressed in black leather. He's cackling, he's laughing. He's got an American accent. You know, he looks like the term... his TV, Eric Roberts. Just like every casting situation in America. He's dripping in guns. Too soon, Mr. Weinstein, too soon. We do need to move on from the era, but before we do, I guess I'd like to ask you, who gets the Jenny Laird award? Oh yeah, we didn't do that last week. Jenny Laird Award for the telly movie. Gosh. The officio's. If you've read the book, the, um, the, um, um, doctor or the nth doctor, it was great because Siegel just said they stole all the material and betrayed his trust and yeah, those 2 wrote it, but listen, get, look up what Siegel says about those two. He's filthy about them because they really did. They really did run away with stuff that was, you know, supposedly in creative work. you say these things and you write these things and that they just went off with it and made money with it. It's a shame because it is a fantastic book and it is very well written. Yeah, I love the anth stock. And you know, Timothy Dalton was in the frame for one, for the jewels of time, Denny Martin Flynn version of the film. But anyway, sorry, Nathan, you're Jenny Laird. Well, I think my Jenny Laird award goes to just the fundamental misunderstanding of the show, which has been a problem since the 80s, which is this is a cult science fiction show for a small group of obsessive teenage boys. And so that's how we're going to reintroduce it. And we're going to fling as much mythology at the screen as we possibly can in as short a time as possible. And you'll notice when it comes back, we don't get any of that. And that was, that's what ruins it, I think. Oh, look, that's a good one, I certainly think. I support you in that nomination. I do have another. The wig. The worst wigs insanely. I'm going to say something very specific, which is. So I suppose it's either Jeffrey Sachs or Patrick Lassier, who, in general, otherwise do a very good job, so that's the director and the editor. But I do believe the film should have opened in San Francisco. The TARDIS lands, the doctor steps out. We have no idea who he is. We've never seen the inside. All that stuff they shot leading up to that. is just a flashback later on when the doctor arrives back in the Tartis and explains to Grace how we got in all this mess. Don't do that. But, you know, that way you still you still get Sylvester in the story, but it sets up a mystery. It gives you a bit of breathing space when you get back in in the TARDIS towards the end and that would be kind of the top of act three. This was kind of written with a 3 act. Sorry, a 6 act structure, I have to say. So this is the top of act five. You know, Grace finally loses it and says, you know, what is this place? Who are you? And he says, I'm a I am a time lord. He is also a timelord, and this is why I changed my face. And you have it as a flashback then. And that way you still get the big reveal at the Tatus when Chang Li steps inside, which is one of the most magical moments of the film. And the way that is shot informs Rose and Martha's 1st look inside the Tatus, and especially Catherine Tate, who runs outside the Tatus, and runs around the back of it like Chang Li does. So, yeah, I think with that simple reedit, the film would have been better received by the general public. Hey, it doesn't matter to us as fans. We know that the big interior he's in is in that little box that's spinning around. And it wasn't until like 2001 that someone pointed out to me. You know, how confusing would that have been? And then I went, actually, yeah, you know, it's fine for me, but how confusing is that for everyone else? The way the way to write the structure of this screenplay is not something that's happened since this film. You go back to any Hitchcock under David Selznik, and you can see how to set this film up. It's all about anticipation. Okay, it doesn't necessarily have to be through a thriller. It's simply for a reveal. And I would not, I'm talking about the birds. actually talking about the earlier films like spellbound, notorious, any of the ones that he did where you've got this assemblage of there aren't that many players in this. So it's not actually hard to structure. Maybe we should look at doing that at a subsequent story and just see how we would have rewritten this. Haven't had time to think about it yet, but I would go back to look at Rebecca. for example. Yeah, yeah. See how we filmed that. Any final thoughts on the 8th doctor? I thought he was great. He did the best job he could with not even bad material, but just as I think I've used a word before, mediocre material. And that's not an indictment of Matthew Jacobs, as you said Richard. kind of the 1st 3rd is Matthew Jacobs. And you know what? Knowing that now you can really feel the shifting quality. I think, you know, that kind of coincides from when the eye of harmony opens. All of the stuff with the doctor and grace in her condo before that is magnificent character building and then after that it becomes a car chase. We recently finished watching the McCoy era. Having seen that all through, how have you left feeling those 3 years? I think that it's one of my favourite eras of the classic series and part of that is, we've said before, the sense of relief that the cold dead hand of Seywood has gone from the show, he's one of the podcasts, he's our evil nemesis, I think, on the podcast. His, his, yeah, his Sutex pillow plumper, isn't he? Which you can now purchase. Yes, yes, Dear Clayton Hickman has a red bubble store and you can buy a black cushion with a hand on it. So Nathan, who is your hero of this era? Carmel? I think. I mean, you know, he's very young. He's not sort of massively experienced at this point. He does have some problems getting scripts to time, but what he does is something that, say, would claim he was unable to do, which was find writers that hadn't written for the show before and get them to do things that the show had never done before. And I think my runner-up hero is Sylvester McCoy, who I don't think is the best actor ever to have taken the role, but he is fun to watch. I think he's appealing to watch and the show stops being as nasty as it had been. It starts going places that it's never gone before. It's overtly political, and so it tries to be about something rather than just being about, you know, the Doctor Who Monster book. And so, you know, like I'm really positive about that era of the show. My hero of the era is self as well. Um, because, you know, it's kind of funny. We talk about behind the scenes on the show. And, you know, famously, if Tom Baker didn't like something, it was not going to be a good day on the studio floor. Whereas it seems that when Silv doesn't like something, he takes the director or Andrew Cartmel aside and he says, and gets some drunk. But he just, he seems to just say to them, well, look, I don't think the doctor would shoot the bazooka, but why don't we give that to Ace? I don't think the doctor would say it this way. I think he would say it that way. Oh, okay, you've got a shootout at the end. Why don't I appeal to the daleks logic? So, What I love so much about him is that when he thinks the script doesn't work, he works with the people around him to make it better rather than just having a strop. And when he and Sophie talk about when we had guest stars when we tried to make them feel welcome. I really get the impression that that is. The absolute truth. You know, when they talk about the people they worked with. The only kind of people they talk about were a bit difficult was Anton Differing, who didn't really want to do the show. He just wanted to watch the tennis, I think. And Sophie Aldred says of Anthony Ainley. No, people say they didn't get on with him, but I got on with it but I like cricket, you know, so they are just so warm and complimentary about the people they worked with. And They cared about getting the right idea across. Despite the fact that, you know, by that 3rd year, they must have known that the ratings weren't as large as the production team were hoping for, but that never diminished their enthusiasm. Or the quality of the work, which kept ramping up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I agree with Nathan that. He's probably not the finest actor to hold the role or even the 2nd finest, but there's a reason for me that when I score every story out of 10 that season 25 and 26 are only behind the David Tennick, Catherine Tate season in terms of an average. And I think it's due to the way that Silv leads the company. You know, Andrew Carmel is certainly worthy of praise. JNT at this point, I think, because he was kind of resigned, the fact he was here, but he had someone he could trust in the role of Carmel. Sophie's great. Bonnie does her best with very limited material, and at this point she was not the experienced actress she would later become. And you know, you look at her work now, and she's on EastEnders which isn't necessarily seen as the height of drama, but I've seen some of her stuff on EastEnders, and it could be from a weekly big budget drama, her, her, um, her grandmother character. So, yeah, it has to be sil for me. Richard? Oh, well, it's hard coming in at the end when you've all said exactly what I feel as well. Only to say that, like all of these pieces, it's no one person that makes it work. It's a melange or simulac or a cake. a big cake. So it is silf, but it's also Dominic Glynn and Mark Ez and Cartmoor Land. It's also Briggs, and it's also Platt, and it's also the more sitting about, having brainstorms and being creative and realising that empathy is the thing that we're actually writing about. And for me, McCoy, at the time, I'm remembering, we have a program here called Late Night Live, which is still going after almost 40 years. Um, Philip Adams is the host, the guy who revived the Australian film industry in the 70s. And our friend, perhaps not of the broadcast, Kate Norman, was on his show back in the 90s. And she said, well, when this was just when this was coming to an end, And she said he was, um, McCoy is her favourite doctor of all time at the time. We tend to say that with the current doctor. But she had real reasons as a very writer, a very certainly a very good fan writer, just a writer anyway, to say that. And I really agree with what she said then, and I remember what she said in the 90s, which was that we just have someone on screen the doctor that we can completely involve ourselves with and who has a depth and a scope of presence on screen that is completely absorbing. You also have to focus hard because you can't understand a bloody word he's saying. She didn't say that, I did. But he makes me pay attention and be involved with him. And for those little moments that you're saying, argue with logic show some empathy. Not too much. Don't crowd the scene. Just a little bit. No, there's so much reward to coming back to this. I've enjoyed this much more than I did at the time and I liked it at the time. Look, I agree with a lot of what everybody else has said listeners. I think Andrew Cartnell and his approach and the freshness and the newness, um, he's a real hero and I think the empathy that Sylvester projects. And, you know, yeah, the quieter moments. I think there's a real, there's a presence there, and I think that for me, those 2 really, as well as the musical people that we've discussed are certainly the heroes of this era. Okay, if we're having a hero, we do have the anti-hero or what I would call the villain of the era. And mine goes to Kev McCulloch. Um, um, except for the theme music, which I really like, but basically every single score, except for the Daleks. I do have 2 runners up and that is the director of Paradise Towers and the director of Battlefield, who I think just got it so wrong or just didn't bother to direct. So is that Mallet and Kerrigan? That's Mallet, who at least redeems himself with a cursive Fendrick. But I'm with Todd, Michael Kerrigan. Michael Kerrigan is my villain in the year. Just harsh but fair. Yeah, just his direction of battlefield is just so flat. And I've read an interview where someone from the, from one of the actors, I can't remember exactly who, but essentially said that Michael Kerrigan considered himself as slumming it in this story so just kind of took a point the cameras and get the shot over with a broach. But, you know, I think I've said this before, that if one of your worst stories of an era is battlefield. Yeah, you're doing okay. For me, battlefield is like the time monster. It's just terrifically enjoyable. The unit thing helps. You know, you've got the doctor has a whole bunch of friends working with him in it. I always love it when that happens and it's just sunny and there's lots of location stuff. So it is terrible. It's got CEF and it's got Michael Kerrigan. But I can't bring myself to hate it. Oh yeah, I don't, I don't hate it, but yeah, I just feel, it's the weakest direction of the whole era. Even so. Still doesn't look that bad. Oh yeah, every, you know, everyone's in shock. I'm being shot. There's a title. The camera only moves when it's meant to, yeah, you know. All right. My next question. Well, there's actually 3 of them, and it's just, I just wanted an answer off the top of your head without reasons. Okay. So, one to watch. Oh, um, because Fenrick. Greatest Show in the Galaxy. The campy bits and silver nemesis. which is everything. Remembrance of the Daleks. Nice, probably the right answer, actually. I had the nice questions, so I had a bit of time. The reference is the stand-up one actually. And the 1st one you go back to. It's extraordinary. Okay, one to avoid. Dragonfire, even though it's hard. Okay, quickly. I'm tending towards Dragonfire as well. I apologise to Richard now, but I'm saying Silver Nemesis. That's good. I like your answer. I'm going to Paradise Chalice people. You'll know why. Okay, and one to be made into a feature film starring Sylvester McCoy. Oh, oh, oh. Remembrance. Happiness Patrol. Now stop it because that's my answer too. Yeah, now I'm going with that. Because you could do it all as film noir. I'm not feeding you, Nathan. No, no, but no, you're exactly right, Richard. Do it as an awesome Wales film noir. With some German expressionistic. Got so much depth to it, you know? It really does, though, doesn't it? Yeah, with Marlena Dietrich as Helen A. No, there's only one Helen A. Sheila Hancock's still with us. All right. That's McCoy era. We shall now move on. Okay, we're now to the Colin Baker era, and I will put it out there. What have you discovered, learnt positive negative about the rewatch in this era? So I've learned that Colin Baker has some real strengths in the role and that includes his comic timing and whenever he is silly or whenever he's being made fun of. He's really quite loveable. And that's not how we see him generally. Do you know what I mean? Like the idea is that he's abrasive and self-centred and bombastic and all of that sort of thing. And I don't find that aspect of him very enjoyable to watch. But like grabbing his teddy bear off hunker and tandral in the mysterious part. Or, you know, like trying and failing to repair the TARDIS and all of those kinds of things. I think he's terribly sweet and I wasn't really aware of that before. Okay, others? I think it highlights a difference that I just mentioned with Silv because Silv knew that the program was in trouble. So when he was saying, oh, I want to make this as best as I can as possible, that was part of his thinking for the arguing I mentioned. No one told the production office that Doctor Who was in trouble until they'd already finished shooting Colin's 1st season. So as far as Colin and Nicola knew, they were doing exactly what was being asked of them. And then to have that gut punch at the end of, actually, we're not happy with what you've been doing when no one has made any of those noises during the whole job, for both of them to stay with the show and say, actually, you know what? Some of those criticisms are valid, we're going to address that we're going to change our performances. It's very big of them both as actors when really the problems of the show, I don't think, well, anything to do with them. It was direction they were given. I've always liked Collins doctor on television. When I was a kid, John and Sil were my favourite doctors, as I became an adult, it became Patrick and Colin, and with Patrick, and I'll talk about this more later, it's what he does. And with Colin, it's what I can see, he's trying to do. And there are so many of those loud bombastic moments where, You can then see he he goes very quiet and he's trying to inject a bit more depth to it, which the script in the direction isn't isn't allowing. So what, yeah, what I feel about that era is, It's tragic that in order to allow the actors to play the parts more like they envisioned them. It took getting the show taken off the air for JNT to start listening to his leading actors when they were saying things like oh, you know, yes, I want the character to be a bit abrasive, but I don't want him to be shouting all the time. Okay, no, I'm shouting, fine, if you're really sure. So they trusted the production crew. And the production crew trusted the big brass and no one was properly talking to each other. You know, it's a bit like that story with Ken Dodd later on in Delta and the Bannermen, where they're sitting in the van going, oh his performance is terrible. We're going to write him out and still sitting there going, no tell him, you know, um, so, what, what comes through to me is, I can just see what he's trying to do, and it's a shame that by the time we get that, we only get 4 stories of, of Colin's doctor. I really think we don't see Cohen's doctor all that much in his 1st season, but by his 2nd season, he's on he's on top of the part. I just wanted to say too, that the 2nd thing that struck me is how disappointing the treatment of Perry is. The female lead of the show has for 3 years been fabulous gobby Australian, you know, air hostess, who... is... whom I adored at the time. I just thought she was fabulous. Sorry, I remember not tuning into Arc of Infinity episode one because I was so angry that she'd been left behind at the end. It was actually a shock. There were a lot of dropped jaws in the playground. the next time. I was furious. And I think she's a wonderful character. I think she plays off Pete really very well. And they replace her with someone who exists basically to be ogled and manhandled by men. And there is no companion who has had a worse time on the show. If you imagine that they're a real person undergoing this. We thought Sarah Jane had a pretty bad time, but Perry's time was vastly worse. And so introducing in 1980, what, five, 1984, introducing a female character with that as the concept is indefensible. And she is so charming. Do you know what I mean? She brings all sorts of charm to the life. Yeah, she's lovely, but it's horrible to watch how she's treated. Richard? I've kind of said, because I'm really not qualified to say, because I've not been able to watch, and it's for the reasons that we've all talked about, and I'm really, the loveliest thing that I've experienced as a just as a diet in the world devoted fan is that I can now say I have an appreciation because of Todd, actually, but all of you, but it's just Todd's enthusiasm, enthusiasm, listening to you all on the podcast, because I've still not been able to watch it all through. I just think, I find it painful to actually sit, me and Steve from New to Who. See, I've named Chechen now. But yeah, I'm kind of with him on that that I just find it difficult to watch, but I'm really interested in seeing it. And I want to see it for all the things. For me, big finish and the audios are just as much canon, as we're not allowed to say on the podcast. But for me, Colin exists on the audios as Paul exists on the audios and he's, and I really adore what he does. through that. So yes, I'd like to go back. But for all the sabrediness, and again, the Perry thing, and my friends, like Roman Laurie, who sometimes listens to this podcast as well, it's just, you know, we can't get over how the female lead was treated. It's not Doctor Who to do that. And yeah, you've, you've come, you've all, you've all covered it. And they do redress it and they do, they do fix it. I think it's time to go back and perhaps watch season 23. Who's up for that? Right. I'll always watch trial again. I to watch it. I bring the champagne. Oh, actually, we've got the marriage equality thing declared in just a week or two, haven't we? By the time this comes out. Yeah it'll probably be done one way or the other. A few days before the big bad dog party at Kasula, art centre and power station, which is all about that. So I think we should all be rocking up for that one. Yeah, we were talking about going as kangs. Because isn't the theme 2 tribes? Yes we were. We put a note here. We recommend we do recommend this. There are a lot of who fans that go to bad dog. This might come out after that. So we'll put it up on the Facebook group. Okay, so, you know, obviously as a huge supporter of Colin and the era, it's been incredible to go back and watch it with different eyes and and see flaws that are there and to understand why things happened and how they address things. Nathan has gone on about the silliness that he's so good at. But also the other thing, which you really opened my eyes to, was how good colonies on location. And that's one of the big... Just on location when you're straight when you're on film. Mysterious play. Yeah. Well, any any location. He's so good in Revelation when on that laugh out loud. Yeah, but I'm just saying, like, even, you know, moments in the Trin dilemma, where they're shot outside in film where he's giving it at all, and it's quite funny, and Attack of the Simon, and I love all the stuff in the street, and that's the thing. So for me, that's one of the biggest things. And how different, how different the performance is between the 2 seasons. I never realised how much he had addressed criticisms and really taken a completely different tack. I still adore season 22 listeners. I know everybody else has a lot of problems with it. It's my favourite season of the 1980s and I say that totally unashamed because Attack of the Summer, Benjamin Farous, 2 doctors and Revelation of the Daleks are 4 of my, they would be in my top 30, top 20, and Mark of the Rani I like, and Tonish might be crap but it's a fun crap to watch. The funny thing is for me, despite that, you know I'm a season 24 supporter. So you and I are like as far away from each other as we can be. But objectively, I have to agree that season 22 is better. It's better in terms of scripts. I think it's better in terms of the relationship, despite the fact that Perry is treated horribly in some stories. She and Colin get some really funny and even really tender moments even though his character is still quite hard in that season. You can have those stars, bitch scenes, and that's a problem. Of the 45 minutes and Eric Seywood's, you know, not able to actually, you know, structure things properly. So on that note, I'm going to say, who is the villain of the era? Okay, so villain on the count of three, everyone. One, two, three. Eric, say. There we are. God. I'll be back when we discuss the fist doctor. The no no monster can ever work alone in the dark. No, no. That's just producing Bruceisms, isn't it? if you work alone in the dark. That's the thing. I think, I think... Possibly even because he has to step into the script editing breach when Eric leaves, I think maybe JNT has a moment of self realisation at the end of trial and that's why he's so handoff hands off with... So there's a hugely toxic relationship between the 2 of them, isn't there? I mean, it's reflected the companion and the doctor's relationship. They're just writing their own love tiffs up on screen. So although J and T, we're not seeing, is like front and centre. He's the relationship. in that relationship. He's the feeder. perfect. He's the theatre. So, um, one to watch. Oh, oh, oh, oh, God. Mark the Rani. Mark the Rani. Terror of the vervoid. Oh my god. Lordy, what? I'd have to say, sorry, the Dalek one. I don't know any of them. Attack of the cybermen. Yeah. 1st episode attack this up. Yeah, why is that so disliked? I found it terrible. Let's just ignore Nathan for the moment. Okay, one to avoid. One to avoid. Can I go one, two, three, and we all say the same thing? Okay, see if it works. One, two, three. The twin dilemma. Mark of the running. It's the script. It's just I challenge everyone to go and read Dan Hogan. That's the script. makes no sense. But yeah, yeah, twin dilemma. I don't know, it has a lovely 50s campy feel to it. It actually feels like a No, it's horrible. It's atrocity. The hero of the era for me is Colin trying to do what he can do with the scripts, with what's going on in production. Baffling decisions behind the scenes, getting through the coach and still maintaining a positive attitude towards the show after all this time. Yeah, me too. For my heroes of the era from here on out, I just want all our listeners to assume I'm going to say whoever's playing the doctor because I don't think we've had a bad doctor. So for my heroes of the era, I'm going to say kind of my 2nd hero. My 2nd hero of this era. Nicola Bryant gets an honourable mention, but it's Michael Jason. Because, oh, interesting. Because after the show has been cancelled and it's looked down on trodden into the dirt, Michael Jason comes on and He plays his part as if he is on a show that is getting 12000000 viewers a week. He doesn't allow the negative press to affect his performance because he could have easily given a scenery chewing kid's panto performance. Instead, he is dark and menacing, and it has this amazing effect because Colin is still very bombastic in those scenes, and Michael Jason hardly raises his voice at any and he's always just this very calm, lugubrious character. Which makes the reveal at the end all the more powerful because they have been opposites all the way through, and still to this day, Michael is incredibly proud of having played the doctor, and why aren't I in the montages, Russell T. Davis? You know, so he approached it with so much pride then and now. So, yeah, Michael Jason for me. Okay. And one to be made into a blockbuster movie starring Colin Baker. Attack of the Cybermen. Attack of the side, I meant with the original conclusion of a battle on Halley's Comet. If you can get rid of some of the word peril and replace it with actual things that happen, that would be great fun. And I would bring back the original design of the tombs. you know the way that we, you know, started to adopt some of that stuff in the Capaldi era when the cybermen came along. We would have some of those design elements from the tombs in there. I think that that would be really terrifically fun. I wonder if Colin had not would not have actually, you know, we would have had very different conversations if twin dilemma had simply never been made. And we started off with attack. I think so. I think so. Todd what do you think? I'm gonna put it out there right now. I think episode one of the trend dilemma is possibly the worst episode ever of Doctor Who. Not because of corn, but because of the attack on Perry and the entire cast, which I'm not going to get started on again. Are we going to get a ranch? just appalling and so if there's any new who people out there who want to watch this, you actually have to watch the whole thing of the twin dilemma for Collins' performance and nothing else. Black and white and backwards. You can't just respond into one episode. Otherwise you'll just make a judgement. But no, Richard is absolutely right in watching the Colin Baker area in black and white. The coat looks amazing in black and white because it has symmetry. So guys, what would your movie be? Oh, I'm definitely doing a tag. I was going to do the trial of a time look completely. But I've decided to take just sounds so much better than only effort I'd have to go to rewriting. It depends on which, because you know I love film. It depends on which director you would give me. So if you gave me Val Lewis and get the scriptwriters, the script doctors for Evelyn Wars transpositions to British cinema in the 50s. I would do, um, the Dalek. I would do revelation. But I would do it as a 50s British Lion or Ealing film and just very subtle and very quietly and on the same budget, but just very small. Yeah, really interestingly, but I've got to say that I'm not very again, not very familiar. Oh, you'd have to say mission to Magnus, wouldn't you? Can you imagine? It just guns and frocks. As a carry-on film. Yeah. Oh my god. It actually, the entire carry on cast. Bernard Brislaw magazine, I'm sorry. Couldn't Kenneth Williams hiss beautifully is the ice is the searing ice slaured. And I think Charles Hawtrey is the leader of the women. Right on that note, we're going to the Peter Davis era. We're going to start off with, you know, what we've taken away or what we've discovered, and I'm going to start this one off because it is my least favourite era of the show. But I'm going to say this. season 21, Davison is fantastic. And if I had to judge him just on that season, I'd put him in the top 3 doctors. And that, For me, is huge. However, he's not judged on that. There are 2 seasons before that, which I find, I can watch 3 episodes of Snake Dance and 3 episodes of Enlightenment, but every other story I couldn't do more than two. I was finding it hard too, actually. But having said that, it's so hilarious that in my head, I have him, Adject, Mr. and Tegan just emblazoned in my head as the team you know, by my child, you know, because we had books with it and everything like that. So and he's got a great energy coming into the show in the 1st 3 or 4 stories that he does. Great charm too, yeah, to start off with. I just had that, that, it's that malaise in the middle. And so my villain of the era is Eric Seywood, a script editor coming into that role too soon. Yeah, well, you can see the switchover from Bidmead to say what and just how the entire tone changes. Nathan. Well, I think that Pete is one of the best actors ever to take the role. He's never been out of work since. He's given some really terrible material, but his performance is much, much more interesting than people give it credit for. And coming off Tom, whose performance we've said before, isn't an acting performance. It's just that he's incredibly compelling to watch. amazingly charismatic. And then you go to Pete, who acts in the role. And he is by no means the sort of bland, nice, sweet doctor that Perry claims he was. He's tetchy and impatient. The running, which he introduces to the show. You know, it's so hard to run when you're barely on location. Or Peter Capaldi. He's the best at running. He runs like Peter Cushing. It's wonderful My God, he does too. No, I think we've said it before. Armando Yanucci says that there's nothing funnier that you can put on screen than Peter Capoldi running. So Pete introduces a thing running... That's it. He's so good. And even when the material he's given is not good, and it frequently isn't, I mean, it doesn't get as nasty as say it would stuff eventually gets. There's vastly less cannibalism in the Peter Davis. You had to say that. And no one would dare to torture Tegan the way that Perry gets tortured. And he's smart. He's so smart. And you can tell from his commentaries just how clever he is. So I think he's the real hero of the era. I think he's really amazing. And I would agree that Seyward is the villain. And he's already sidelining Pete in his own scripts. He's much more interested in telling stories about soldiers. And telebiogenesis. Well, no, I would be happy for there to be more telebiogenesis. Really, there's a lot of there's a lot of info dumping. There is, but what there also is, is a critique of the doctor as a hero because he refuses to carry a gun that makes him in Seyward's eyes passive and ineffectual, and that's something that absolutely haunts Collins era. Like Colin is really disrespected as a hero. And that's why he's, you know, conceived as unpleasant, why he has to be shouty and selfish because Saywood doesn't like the doctor as an idea. And already he's sidelined and the yearly remakes of earth shock. I think. They're terrible. What would you name the name? Earthshock, Earthshock 2. The Return? Earth Shock 2 of the Daleks of the Shock 3. It's pretty much every 2nd story. Every 2nd story, you could say, is... Nathan, I do agree with you. Pete is a hero of this era. The other person I would also nominate would be Janet Fielding. Oh, me too. Yeah, absolutely. And I adored her as a child and now I think she's fantastic. I think she's really, really great. And even the stuff that she says about the program and its representation of women and, you know, getting Pete and and Janet on a commentary is wonderful. They're both super honest about the program and super funny. And I know that there are people who find the sort of endless tearing the show apart rather tiresome after a while. Surely not people who listen to us. But Janet is just, just incredible. Really really great. Once Tegan gets drunk, you know, that's a story, which Black Orchid. Thank you. I'm twitching dealers. Her performance from that point on is it's nuanced. Before then, it's not as nuanced. But from that point on, there's just something where she navigates those scripts in Tegan's character that just really works. And she works well with paid as well. You know, like she works really terrifically well with Pete. Are the members of the team? Richard? Oh, it's so interesting. And at the time, I was with really with Pete that I felt that Nissa, that Sarah's character was really the person that I wanted to see and that I wanted to see more of her and now I can't wait for her to get the hell off the screen. And she's really a dead centre and it's certainly not her performing. I think you're right. It's that Sabord has a bugbear that he sees compassion as weakness and that really does come across. But we also have people who are smart, who are in the leads, who are seeing that and winkling it out. So you've got Janet playing the feisty, mouthy, but also throwing that's her, their own personalities will always overcome the limitations of the material, or the limitations of, of, you know the background direction. So yes, I agree with you completely on that one. What are there any other little gifts? I think there was a lot to work against, and I think a lot of it has to do with the dying days of BBC in-house drama, just the ways of making it. So yes, I would, I would point a black boney finger at every lighting technician that worked for the BBC at the time and the way the things were produced on such a quick turnover and so, and also that they had to make that many stories. I would have liked a bit more creative freedom and license that perhaps this season we're only going to do 12 or 14, but we'll do them longer. It will be dependent upon how the script is, like any theatre group, any rep group or any proper cinematic artistic thing. Look at what Patrick Magoon was able to do with the prisoner or in fact, what ITC were doing in the 60s. Not so much now. But Doctor Who was, when it started was part of that whole creative push of testing the medium and being clever and for the sake of a bigger, not just for its own sake, but for creativity. So it was a fresh creative idea and it came out of a time when pretty much everything was a fresh creative idea. And we now seem to be struggling against the limitations of production codes and what we required to do. It's been corporatised. I mean, you can really feel the people within it trying so hard to do something good and pushing against that. Brendan. Yeah. With Pete, the thing I really noticed watching it through again was The subtle edges. He has always been my least favourite doctor and I think he possibly still is, but he's come up much closer to the others. And it's those subtle little moments. It the tetchiness you mentioned, Nathan. It's, Also, I think he and Sylvester and Patrick are the ones who really get the sadness of the character. And I think with Peter, it's a lot, it's a lot more under the surface, unlike it is with the other two. There's a Doctor Who drinking game that says, you know, take a shot every time the 5th doctor, grins, then frowns fetchingly. And the thing is, the way I look at those, like, grins and them frowning is his doctor kind of going, Oh, that's amusing and now it's stopped. That's how I see him looking at the character of this time, Lord. You know, everything is fleeting to him. It's already done. It's already gone. And another thing I just love about him. And I think this is the antidote we get to, the Sewardism of this era, which we don't necessarily get in Collins era, is that... Davison's doctor is, this person who desperately believes in good and peace in the universe, and despite the fact that the universe keeps kicking him in the face, he never gives up on that, you know. Look at Warriors of the Deep, where he's punched, he's thrown into a reactor pool. He's assumed drowned. And when he finally gets to the bridge. The 1st thing he does is hand hands over his gun. He's not going in there to fight. He going in there to talk, even if it gets him killed. And that's what Robert Holmes brings out in the character in the final story. And I think that's why Andrazani is possibly Davidson's favourite story because it gets that his doctor, he's not interested in killing the gun runners. He's not interested in necessarily stopping their drug trade, what he's interested in is saving his friend because this is all his fault. It's a shame that Andrew Zani didn't get to do more script editing as the show right now. So my villain of this era isn't so much say word because I think say word at this point because of his inexperience. can't be held entirely accountable. You know, in the Colin era, he had his chance to make a whole new show and blew it. So who is the villain? Whoever decided that Christopher Hamilton bit me couldn't have a pay rise to stay on. Okay, there's there's 2 winners here, but yeah, you know, that that is that is very good. Yeah, because, um, because yeah, I think the biggest problem with SayWord in this era is he just didn't have the experience to work on a show of this magnitude and I think throughout that 2nd season you can see he's doing his best because with that 2nd season of 6 stories. I think there are 3 stories that are good. I think you've got Snake Dance, Modern Undead, and Enlightenment and I think the other 3 fall short, possibly because the attention was being spent on those 3 good ones, you know, and it was like triage. It's like, I'm going to get these 3 good ones out the door and I'm sorry guys, but the other ones. But by the time you get to 21, I think Seward knows what he's doing. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? 21, despite the violence in resurrection, 21 is a really good balance. Until twin dilemma comes along. But twin dilemma is we've just made 3 epically good stories. I know you're not a big fan of resurrection Nathan, but I think it's good. You've got resurrection, you've got Planet of Fire, you've got Caves of Andrazani. They've gone all out to give their 3 regulars, a big sendoff, and they've got this sort of end of season where they just think that having a new doctor will coast them along the line. The turkeys in the oven. Yeah. But so my hero... What am I saying this? My hero of the era is Janet. Yay. And it's because everyone remembers her as being angry and mean just as everyone remembers Davidson as being feckless and stupid and it's like, no, they actually got a lot more in common with each other. And despite how much they argue. The loyalty between the characters and the love between the characters is incredibly obvious because if it wasn't. And if it was that Davison was just her whipping boy and she was and she was just a horrible harrow and... That end scene of Resurrection, the Daleks wouldn't have any resonance, but what it is, it's this character who's been so strong finally saying, no, this isn't acceptable. I can't do this. I've had enough say word and I'm not coming back. And the character who has been her best friend and has sort of talks her down from her angrier moments, suddenly has nothing to say. You know, it's a really effective moment from from the 2 actors. And yeah, that's why Janet Fielding's, my hero of the era, because even without that subtlety until Black Orchid. And I agree, Black Orchid is when she really comes into it. Even in her probably worst performance, which is for to doomsday when she's stomping around the TARDIS, she's still entertaining and funny. Cheers. Just thinking, can you imagine doing work that 5 years, 10 years 20 years later, everyone can critique and still does? Can you imagine the stuff that we do when we turn up? will be constantly critiqued for the rest of our time? Um, say what? Say what, for all that we're saying, did also, I'm just remembering, gave, gave us enlightenment and Kinder, and I've got to say, when Earth Chock 1st came out, I really loved it. As a 14 year old boy, fantastic. I think he gets a lot more right in this era than he gets wrong. There's a lot of good things there. So maybe it's actually just about the Moffat syndrome or the MS, as we now call it, because it's a recognised illness, is that let people do their good work for the time that they can, but even RTD would say it don't linger too long. Yes. Okay. Brendan. one to watch One to watch. One to watch. I would have to say the awakening. Not because it's the best one, but just because I think the regulars all get some fun stuff to do, there's some great guest cast. And as you just alluded Richard, it doesn't outstay its welcome. Okay. For me, worries of the deep. Wow. I'd say, and it's in no way typical of the era, Caves of Andrazani. Okay, golly gosh, the romantic ones for me. So no whole story, but moments in Castravalva, moments in Enlightenment, even moments, the 1st episode of Black Orchid, I really loved and found charming. And it's what Pete's doctor should have been doing. Keep it light. One to avoid. Terminus. Black Orchid. No, I'd have to say terminus as well. The Dalek one. Yeah. Okay. And one to be made into a spectacular, successful movie out there starring Peter Davidson. I'm going last. So off you go. I'm going frontios. Oh, yeah, and that will really work in a proper hard SFY. yeah. Enlightenment. Oh no, that's cool. Oh, actually. Well, you get glimpse of glimpses of it in the special edition, but it's not very good. My runner-up is 4 to Doomsday. Yeah, cool. Yeah. With William Hartold, yeah. David Bradley. is really tough. Look, I actually think the Kinder and Snake Dance combined as one film and, you know, cross reference, I think, could be a really interesting piece, but it would very quickly end up being Avatar if you threw a lot of money at it, because Avatar, there's a lot of that in Avatar. So we need to be careful. What we wish for. Time flight. Because I think there's some amazing concepts in there. Nation's about to throw a piece of upholstery. Nathan, is I'm about to get a bloody sofa. Why? Because, okay. You can actually have some dinosaurs in there. You can have some... Okay, could look gorgeous, couldn't And you know what? The Zeraphin idea. The idea of this gestolt entity, which can also be a, which can also be a power source is a fantastic idea. I don't think there's anything wrong with the ideas in time flight except the master is hiding as this alien for some reason. Yeah, how would I was going to ask you, how would you pull that in? And well, that was that was a JNT suggestion. That wasn't in the original script. That's the thing. So you just keep Khaled as Khala. Well, either that or you just have the master. Yeah, Khalid is a little bit kind of racist. Yeah. Because the reveal of the master is just there for a cliffhanger. If you have it as a film, you don't need that reveal. You just do the Doctor Who thing off, there's someone operating a screen or you don't even know what's happening. You don't know who's operating this until the doctor walks into the room and sees this globe and the master says you never understand what's going on, doctor. Certainly the big problems with that story. It has no money and so it looks crappy. And then the end of it is a lot of Makano set sort of stuff. And with a feature film that had money, you would actually be able to do a proper climax. Yeah, exactly. You just want it as the last airport film, don't you? It is, I'd have to say, a bit light on the ground to use a dead pun. But yeah, like any airport disaster movie, sure. Well, you've got Lloyd Bridges in the in the air traffic control room, which isn't just a cupboard saying, another Lost Concord? Looks like I chose the wrong day to give up. I don't want to see the shooting of that. Wow, it's certainly not a response I even expected. I think that's one of the things I'm taken away from this journey is that there are moments where I'm just flawed by either opinions... Yes, who I'm sitting with? opinions I never thought of, or things that I see on screen that I never thought I'd never really watched before. What have I been living with all these things? Speaking of which, let's now go to the Tom Baker era. I like to call it the Tom Baker era. Oh, called, yeah. Yeah, because there are three of them. There are 3 of them. And they are very much defined by the producers. Also defending Tom. Yeah, Tom's taking it seriously. Tom's in control. Oh dear, Tom's not in control anymore. Oh, yes, behind the scenes, yes. What can you say? The man is just charismatic and I can watch him. Like, from the moment he arrives to the moment he leaves, even in underworld, which I can't stand, he, like, just is. I just can't explain it. He just is. It's that moment he appears in Robot into John Pertwee's show and completely just takes control of the entire show. He just shows that I don't need a regular supporting cast. I am absolutely fascinating to watch. And, you know, that's why he never read the bits of the script that he wasn't in, you know, because they're the bits that he doesn't care about. He's so massively, massively entertaining to watch the entire way through. And his performance changes, but all of the versions of Tom are compelling to watch. They are. I mean, you've got, obviously, you've got the Hinchcliffe in the 1st three, and then you've got your Graham Williams in the next three. But I do think they're in that in that 4th series from Fang Rock to Invasion of Time. I think there is a change of performance from the beginning of that to the end. That's the one sequence where I do see for me anyway, a change think it's a terrible season. That was the biggest revelation for me is how much I absolutely loathe that season. It's by far my least favourite season of the Trombaker era, maybe even in the 1970s. that's a big thing. I really love horror of Fang Rock. Everything else I could like wind blowing. I mean, you love the sunmakers, et cetera, but I don't. I think part of the reason for that, though, is season 15 is, in a way, the time of biggest tumult for Doctor Who, since Hartnell's 3rd season, because even though Troughton's era had lots of shifting producers, it was like the script editor would be the producer for a week and then the associate producer would be the producer for a week. So it was still pretty much the same team of people. And before Derek Sherwin came, became producer. He been on the show for a year. So there was still a consistency of tone. And then you've got Robert Holmes. And you've got Robert Holmes comes in. Shadowing Terrence Dicks. Yeah, yeah, and all that Passover. But here you've got a big change of producer and script editor. Yeah, and the change in producer was immediate because of criticism of the violence. Pretty much while they were making, I think it was robots of death Philip Hinchcliffe was told, you're being taken off the show next year. And so Graham Williams, who'd been preparing this crime show, which Philip Hinchcliffe was now going to be put on. Target, yeah. Graham Williams was suddenly thrust into this world of sci-fi and arrived with, as he puts it, -one script because the vampire mutations was pulled out from under him. So, you know, Hinchcliffe did his best to make sure that his successor had something, which the BBC then vetoed. But not money, but not money. But that is the 1st season where you don't have money, right? And I honestly think you've got a, the Dr. Leila relationship in that year is just awful. It presages the we complain about Perry and the 6th doctor, but we're really getting quite a bit of it here, aren't we? That's when I get out of it. Rabbits of Death, Towns of Winchaying, horror Frank Rock. Just extraordinary. Yeah. But that's the thing with, I imagine with Tom at the time. Of course, Tom didn't want an assistant at all. He thought, you know, just have a new cast every week. And he didn't like the character of leader setup either. Although he was great in the 3 stories that tortures me. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, he came to respect Louise Jameson as an actress. And later. Much like, much like Hartnell in season three. Tom, suddenly, Philip Hinchcliffe, who was an instrumental part of his casting, along with Barry. So Philip Hinchcliffe is gone. Liz Laddin is gone. Robert Holmes is going. This new producers come in, who Tom has never met before. Eventually, a new script editor who Tom has never met before, and a character he doesn't agree with. Introduced at a time where he doesn't even want a supporting character. So you know, 1st of all, I don't want one. Second of all, I don't like the character. And yeah, he was talking about leaving at the end of that year. And I actually think that Louise Jameson standing up to him and saying, look, Tom, whether you like it or not, I'm here. I've been contracted. We might as well work together. And that made Tom... Just kick him a bit in the nuts when she says it. Just a little nudge. And they both kind of say they both kind of say that that kind of snapped Tom out of it to realise he's dealing with a person, which is quite, which is quite prescient of how the internet works. And you know, you then see towards the end of the season, he starts playing it more for comedy. And I think he kind of went, okay, I need to do something new. They don't want the broody stuff that Philip Hinchcliffe was doing because the BBC don't like that anymore. I'll do something different. So when we get into his 5th season. He's far more back in the flow. He adored Mary Tam. You know. She also knew exactly how to handle him. Yes, yes. What's it called? something detachment? Syndrome, yeah. It was called taking a sabbatical from it. And you know, I'm so glad she did. Yeah, me too. Me too. And then you've got that, and then you've got the final season which has its own sort of feel, the older doctor and the dismantling of the team and the era around him, which I think is a great season. Yeah, I think Tom works really, really well in that season. He's given 2 acting roles, you know, as old Tom in the leisure hive. and as Meglos in Meglos. Yes, and decorative balcony. But he, his sadness and just, you know, he just feels a little bit old. He, you can sense he's a little bit over it. But that season is so complex and so thematically unified. Lots of Bergman in it, lots of in my Bergman. not just his death wish. There's a reason he tries to land the TARDIS under the team is to flush out Andrew. You know, that's it, the hands of Christopher Hamilton Bidmead, who I think can't be praised enough. Yeah, agree. I think that's a wonderful season. Less also not forget. I don't know about. I mean, I talked to the man on Twitter, and I find him really terrific, and sometimes he likes what I say. So, of course, we're going to get married next year if I have anything to do with it. He was given from on high that poison chalice of take the comedy out. Yes. And what do you do with that? Well, I think he actually says in retrospect, and we might have said this at the time, that he feels that he went too far with the leisure high. Alice certainly pointed it out once or twice. It's a magic box, please. I think I think there's a rebalance. Yeah, I do too. That's the thing. As a kid, I found season 18 quite humourless, but it's just that the humour becomes more subtle, and that's not to necessarily say it's better than season 17, which I adore. But I do think, you know, Tom gets wonderful lines like, oh normally I'm so good with children, which the previous season, he would have said, he died. Normally, I'm so good with children. You know? Yes, yes, yes. It still, it still would have been funny, but it means the jokes we do get, very often they're more, they're cleverer jokes as well. And the weird thing is, I find it hard to imagine the leisure hive being better with more jokes. I think it's magnificent as it is Well, I think that, you know, if we were to name, I've got a whole bunch of heroes from this era. But JNT might be one of them because he is very keen to do to refresh a show that had become really tired. And there were lots and lots of spaceship corridors in the previous season. And the show looks so much more interesting and is much more experimental visually. And the leisure hive, I think, is the best looking story of the era, even when it's effects look cheap or aren't sort of particularly impressive. It's so interestingly directed, uh, and so well done that I don't have a version of the leisure hive in my head that would be better. As a producer, like it is his hero moment. That season is his hero moment, in terms of managing to build a new team, to give Tom to ground the show, to bring it into the 80s all of that. I agree. On the same side of the coin, I also consider Graham Williams to be one of the heroes of the era in terms of being able to get the show onto air considering budget and scripting and all sorts of problems behind the scenes, even though, you know, some of it works and some of it doesn't. But, I mean, season 16 looks fantastic. you know, maybe up until the very end and is incredibly entertaining. And what Williams gets to do is play to the strengths of his lead to allow Tom to take centre stage and be really interesting and to make the show fun. He was, as we said before, given an absolute killer brief, you know, like he's no money and you aren't allowed to be violent anymore. And he makes a show that's really just smart and incredibly enjoyable. What I find amazing about the 3 eras is the Hingecliff era is unashamedly based on classic cinema and classic sci-fi cinema. The Graham Williams era, he looks more to literary influences and mythology. And the final season looks to science. Yeah. And so, Doctor Who is about antecedents, even more, I think, than the previous 2 eras. It's about antecedents really for the 1st time, in my opinion, in a big way, since Verity Lambert was in charge, because Verity Lambert was always looking at what's going on in science right now. What did they do in Quator Mass? How can we use that? And the original conception for the unit era was very Quator Mass and quickly moved away from that kind of earth-base thing, to develop its own earth-base thing, which is wonderful. But the great thing about having Tom's era based on all these different things is if you don't know what it's based on, that's fine. But if you do, it's that extra little bit of excitement. I think Hinchcliffe possibly leans a bit too heavily and the sources are a bit too revealed and, you know, it's obvious, whereas I think Graham Williams. Graham Williams is really interesting to me because as much as I love his last 2 seasons, and I agree with you, Todd, that season 15 is quite weak. It always feels to me like the same way John Nathan Turner was feeling in the Colin Baker era. John Nathan Turner became tired after 3 or 4 years and got reinvigorated at the end. Graham Williams came into Doctor Who Tired and on the run for 3 years. So I agree, it's amazing. got anything out. And I think the success of those last 2 years are entirely, I wouldn't, sorry, not entirely. I shouldn't say entirely. I think the success of those last 2 years in terms of script is down to the script editor. I think Anthony Reid and Douglas Adams put so much of themselves and their own voice into the show. And it, you know, you obviously notice it with Douglas Adams because he became so famous. But Anthony Reid, of course, didn't become terribly famous. I didn't realise until watching the making of some of the special features, which have so much stuff from him and so much input as to what his vision of the show was, that you realise, yeah, you put your fingerprints on this show just as much as Douglas Adams did. So he's one of your heroes. Yeah, I would actually say Anthony Reid is probably the one person I hold up. And as you say, Nathan, There are so many people you could hold up. So I'm going to hold up, Anthony Reid, because Graham Williams had this crazy idea of giving the doctor a mission, which I think we said at the time is a stupid idea. But... He and Anthony Reed make it work. And when you look at something like Invasion of Time, which they wrote together, which... Me too. And it's made on no money with a script they thought they had in the bag and suddenly fell through. And they're like, what can we use? We've got these sets in storage. We've got this old hospital we can use. It's making a six-part Doctor Who story. You could probably cut 20 minutes out of it, to be honest, but it still manages to be largely entertaining. It's got a terrible writeout for Leila. But until that last 5 minutes. You wouldn't know that they were in this disaster. I don't know about that. I might be Armageddon factor. Well, exactly. It's their magnificent Ambersons. So yes, all those flaws can make something quite great. They can aerate the mix. I'm continuing with the baking committer for you. So, so who? Oh, what are your hero? I was also going to say Anthony Reed, but for slightly different reasons, but I would also say, again, it's about the mix and the contrasts, and I don't think we would have loved Tom or it could have gone on for so long. If there wasn't this continual change in aeration and rebuilding it, just what we were saying before. Dont stay too long. But Tom, you can stay as long as you like because you kept changing. I like death nil, Tom, now as an older person. Because I came to Tom when I was eight. That was when it 1st started showing and I was 13, I think, when he finally left. So it's engrained. It's tattooed on the frontal lobes. I'm never, ever going to be able to get away from him. I'm so glad he's still here. I'm really grateful for everyone that passed through it. And there was no one I would wish had not been there. And even for as long as they were there. That's much like life, isn't it, really? You look back at Je ne pas. I think Anthony I think Anthony Reid. I do think there are stories in his era that are far worse than other eras. Sorry, is what I was hellishly trying to say. But yeah, yeah. Sorry, Top God. I do think that in Anthony Mizero. I think there are poorer stories than in others, but they're often at the hands of Budget and Bob Baker and Dave Martin. And they are one of the villains that I would say of the era. I think there's a previous episode of Flies through Entirety, where someone gives me, probably Brandon gives me a list of all of the stories that Bob Baker and Dave Martin wrote, and I suddenly realise how truly, truly horrific. Yeah, yeah. You can hear the sound of my realisation. The Bristol Bombers, yeah. We're talking a lot of behind. You're talking? It's true. rubbish. Behind the scenes, people, like various people, but in front of the camera, besides Tom, who is obviously a big hero, I just want to point out in Marta, Elizabeth Spaden, Mary Tam, and Lala Ward. I won't talk about the people going into the next Europe, but that run of companions and actors spectacular. You know, they sell it. They can make gold out of mud if they have to. Yeah. Khaliz really came alive with Tom too. We need to say she's a very different character in season, season with Tom. I'll even say Matthew Waterhouse, final two, final two. You know, he actually delivers some solid of performances with an actor who knows what he's doing, and there's a bit of confidence there in him. Can I just say that I don't think we should leave the era without talking about Bob Holmes. John Leeson. Sorry, I forgot John Lisa. He's also part of it. Sorry, John. And David Bryanley. No, he's not a hero. That's the episode title and David Bryan. But the smoking bike in the room. I nominate him for something? Villain. No, I can see. Look, he is a polarising figure and I think that that's completely reasonable and there are nasty things about the Hinchcliffe era and Holmes is almost certainly to blame for like 80% of them. Where are the women? Sarah's treatment. He dismantles everything and takes the show away from Earth, and I think that's a problem. I think taking the show away from Earth is a problem as well. But look at that 1st thing. It had to be done though. But boy, he's a great writer and you just, you know, he creates these worlds that are vastly bigger than the story that they're in. He is super funny. He's very clever with words. He's brilliant with characterisation. He doesn't like anyone. He hates everyone and everything. You know, he's all my favourite things. He's a column. I think he's so great. And you remember we did the pert we retrospective and I was asked my top 3 stories and it was just all of the Bob Holmes stories. He's such an accomplished writer. And the uptick in quality between robot and arc in space. I don't think has ever been equalled in the shows history. Much as I love robot, Arc in Space just takes it to a whole new level. And he is so incredibly good. But absolutely understandably polarising and cynical and terrible in many ways. It's fantastic. And he's also villain. But he's also a hero. You know, I'm right with you there, Nathan. No, I think he's one of the best riders ever. written for the show. And the number of times he starts a season and reboots the show incredible. What I find so amazing about him is for Tom's 1st 4 seasons. Actually, even the key to time season. He steps in and writes at least one script that was meant to be another writer. The Ark in Space, Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Wang Chiang, the Sunmakers, wasn't meant to be written by another writer, but Bob stepped in because they had a deficiency of scripts and Power of Kroll, was a replacement script. So, you know, for each of those 5 years. And it's a bit hard to say, but because he's no longer with us, and of course, around the time he passed away in the mid 80s was when Doctor Who magazine started doing all these really in-depth interviews, you know, so they did have some interviews with him but he never seemed to complain about that. It just like, nope, we've got to have that 4 episodes. I'll do it. You know, we've already discussed the story with the writer, so I'll take some of the ideas. So, you know, the arc in space was drastically different from what John Lucarate was planning, but still in the same setting. Get to Talons of Wang Chiang. It's almost completely different from Diffo from the future, which was eventually adapted very well by Big Finish. That one was either adapted by John Dorney or Johnny Morris. I can't remember who, but really, really good. But, yeah, I mean, I have to agree. That the way he presents the show is not always to my taste, but the scripts he writes himself. are among some of my favourites. The Arkin space is held up quite rightly as an archetypal classic. It still works. Still works. Richard, anything to add on that? I'm trying to look up the old story titles to just go back and remember it all because there's so much richness in it. I, I think, again, it's the combination of all of the things in that Holmes had so had too many ideas, so many ideas that he didn't get them all done in the time that he was there, and then when he, then he left, he was just left with the jaded flavours which is sometimes, just like when you're deglazing the pan, at the chewiest and bitterest and best that are left. So he's even 2 doctors, or you could say mysterious planet, there's still so much unctuous biting bitterness in that that you can still say, yeah, there's still good stuff in there. Okay. One to watch. One to watch. Androids of Tyron. Well, even though that's my favourite, I'm not, I'm not going to suggest that just because it is so atypical. I would actually say. No, actually, come back to me. It's too hard. too hard right now. Seeds of Doom. City of death. I was going to say Seeds of Doom as well. You know, because it's their 2 movies. That would also be my movie choice. But it's not a lovely story and it's pretty awful to Sarah, but it's just so interesting. It's got Harrison Chase. Actually, I know what I would say. Robots of death. Yeah. Watch the robot. Although it's turned it up. So we've seen? Okay. One to avoid. Underworld. Power of Kroll. I love power of crawl. I do too. Armageddon factor. Yeah, except for the Mary 10 bits, yes. Yeah, I've got to say I agree with you. I'd like to throw something else in, but crunch it, Armageddon. Okay, so it's Tom Baker, and it's a movie. And you've got to pick something. I can't say Doctor Who meets Scratch Man. No, you can't. No, I want to. Cricket man. Well, James Goss is, so why not? Okay, Doctor Who, Tom Baker, movie... I would say the invasion of time is a movie. Again, it's another very word-perily script that would benefit from actually being able to see some of the things that were happening. Yeah. And, you know, somehow actually foreshadowing the Santarans have turned up rather than just getting to write episode 5 at 5 AM on Saturday morning and going, and then there's some Santarans game. Wow. Look, I was going to say arc in space. That's what I'm going to say too. But my other one is Doctor Who and the key to time. That would actually really, really work. My movie is City of Death. And my avoid would actually have to be Brain of Morbius because it's actually just a say word story. Oh, the deadly necessity, if I'm really happy, but underworld. No one said Megloss, which is totally alien. Alien. It basically is remade as a movie. All right, now it's time for the John Wheevee's dilavatory or the John Pertwee era of the show. So... Maybe I'll start. I actually rediscovered him after the vitriol in the 90s where his whole era was just taken apart. And you can't watch it the same as I think from Tom Onwards. To me, these are discoveries that I've made, that his 6 partners you cannot watch in one hit. You have to watch a couple. You have to watch like 2 episodes and that's it. Because it wasn't made for DVD. I bid Planet of the Tediums. And even, I think the 1st 3 years, generally, it's like it is different from the last two. I think it, television begins to change. I think it begins to get a bit more pacier. I think there are 3 John Pertweis in the era, much like there are 3 Peter Capaldis. Like there is his 1st season and a few stories and then Colleen Space sort of changes to the end of Time Monster, and then there's the last two, where he's much more cuddly and fluffier again, and the last season has the best opening credits in original series. Who? Yes. That's what I've got out of this era. I have to agree with you. I think that the character does actually evolve and change over time. And I know that sometimes we say uncharitably it's because John retires from acting, but frankly, seeing him in interviews as himself. His later doctor is still a very restrained performance compared to John Pertwe, the man. And I do think that he gives consideration to the fact that, okay if the doctor's been on earth for a few years, eventually he will soften to the people around him and soften to his fate. And, you know, if you think about it in a realistic term, which I don't think anyone on the show was seriously doing, you know. But when you have been wandering time and space and you're suddenly exiled to one planet, it is a shock and you will be just annoyed with everyone around you. find it tiresome, right? Very tiresome. You know, right from his 1st story where he tries to escape in the TARDIS and when the brigadier catches him, he just sits down dejectedly on a stool and says, I couldn't stand the thought of being in one planet at one time. Naughty new to public schoolboy, Russell. It shows you like later on, even down into the Green Death, where the brigadier saying, but there's a green corpse and the doctor's just saying, no, no, no. It shows you how much of that is a game between them. When the real 3rd doctor is actually this figure who is really sad that he can't travel anymore, but also is the figure that when his best friend is upset, he'll tell a very personal story from his childhood. Or about him a bit. Tabi having a lovely lunch. You see, I've never understood why that moment with Sir Tubby. I never understood why people point to that and say, oh, see, he is establishment. It's like, no, he's lying through his bloody teeth. Well, that's what I've always seen that scene as because... I think it's a bit of column A in column B. I don't think Persewe's playing it like that. Oh okay. That's that's kind of what I always get, because when he says rotten sort of lot digging into your department tubby. He's just kind of giving him this glance like, is he buying this? No, I think that's written to be a lie, but not played. Oh, okay. Although again, the great dissembler, the doctor has been called many things. Yes, that's true. That's true. Who's to say? Nathan, what I discovered was that I like season 7 much less than I thought I would. Stop it. Yep, and I thought it was the grown up proper one, but I think the stories are too long, and I think they're all too similar, and I think that each story is worse than the last, and I wouldn't have said that before. I had watched it for the podcast. I think that season 11, on the other hand, maybe Monster of Paladine accepted, is much better than I thought it was. And the reason that I like this era is that it has a large regular cast. And I think that Doctor Who as a show has a problem in that, uh it's sort of a weird anthology show in a sense, uh, where we're in a different place, each story, and we don't get to know anyone. And I think that there's something terribly sweet and comforting about the doctor having a bunch of friends. It's one of the reasons that the Chibnall casting announcement that was made this week, as we record, makes me a bit vomit. Oh, makes me want to... No, no, no. It excites me because I think Doctor Who works with a regular cast that's bigger than 2 people. One of the things I dislike about the Colin Baker era is that Colin Baker's doctor has no friends. He just knows. Colin Baker's doctor. No, no, I get it, but it's a good quote. You know, whereas it's such a modern internet thing to say too isn't it? no friends. But I like it between friends on Facebook and most of them are... one of my that's one of my heroes in this era is that you've got the brigadier. Benton Yates. and then whether it be Joe or Sarah or Liz, you've got that cast and you've also got Terrence Dix and Barry Letts. Like, they are, that collective group aren't my heroes of this era. I mean, the longest period of time that we'd had to date with the same creative team. It's really, yeah, it's the greatest period of stability in the classic era. that a good thing? Well, the weird thing is you would think it would stagnate. Like, you know, we talked about with JNT, he wanted to move on and he recognised that he should move on and he wasn't able to, and that led to stagnation. Whereas here, I'm going to single out one particular person from that group, and that is Katie Manning, because as much as the doctor's character grows. I think part of it is pertly settling into the role and feeling comfortable. I think it's still a conscious acting choice, but the actor whose performance changes and character grows over their time, is Katie Manning as Joe Grant. You know, she comes in as this ingenue, who doesn't really know what her role is. You know, she's just been put there in a case of nepotism. And wants to prove herself not only to the doctor, but also to herself. And as story... This group editor and to the director. Well, you know, I mean, she is the casual viewer, but she's also Dixon Lett's idea of what girls should be. Yeah. So I always had an issue with the casting of that or the concept of the role after Liz Shaw. She's my hero of the entire era. And she comes in and is immediately super competent. Yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that 1st story. She investigates all the plastic factories, she orders parts for the doctor. She is charming and on top of things. She is completely unflappable. She is really, really very different from the way that Dix characterises her role and she humanises the doctor. Okay, so we're talking about 2 things here. We're talking about Katie's performance. but also the way she's written. I don't think she's written as an idiot at all. But I am going to disagree with you something there. I think part of the appeal for her character in the early stories is her incompetence because, okay, yeah, she goes off investigating, knocks over a crate and tries to blow everyone up as a result, you know? But she knocks over a crate and stands up and sort of goes, oops she's incompetent, but confident, which I think is important and confident in sort of saying, oh, yeah, I screwed that up. That was me. Actually, I was about to say something about Star Trek discovery but I'm not going to because 2 of us here haven't seen it, but Nathan knows what I was going to say. Yes. And dear listeners, I think you know what I'm going to say as well. But as the show goes on, she becomes more competent and we get repeated scenes. So in terror of the autons. She rescues the doctor by breaking a vase over someone's head. In the sea devils, she rescues the doctor without attacking anyone. Yeah, I think she clobbers one guard, but after that, it's like getting, get out, get the key. In cause of axis, she has a go at chin and, you know, chin's an enemy. So you expect the characters to have a go at the enemy, but it takes real strength then in the Green Death to turn around and say no to the brigadier. There are some great moments in that story. Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying, Brendan. And as an arc, it defines the pertle era. I just feel that the character was brought in too soon and I regretted the loss of so much of season 7's establishment. Well, you know, Caroline John was so fantastic and such a great... Whereas Katie is a 60s girl in the 70s. And she's also, there's the disingenuousness and the vulnerability but there's that whole sexual thing of being exactly what the dads want and it really still bothers me. But she has to dumb down underplay and be incompetent because a competent woman, even though it's the 70s. And we have Margaret Mead, Margaret Burkewiter, actually figures from the 50s, but we have Steinham, we have Greer, we have all the women, great women. We've already talked about in a 100 other ones. And then we've also having to please men in this production company who have said we wanted a little girl that we actually felt like, you know, being with. And we know what they meant when they said that... It's all of them. But she has such charm. She does. She's so good. And I think it's because Katie goes in and whether it's consciously or unconsciously kind of looks at the character and goes, oh, okay, so you want me to be this, this, this thing that just stands over there and screams, no, thank you. I'm going to sacrifice myself to the god to save the earth, and then I'm going to climb out on this citadel in my high heels, and then just to finish off. I'm going to tell Omega where he can shove his gel guards. Brendan's done all of that Not just into privacy of his own podcast. I agree. In heels and backwards. Un green. Like, she is an unsung hero. I also think that Liz Shaw is also in her own way. Yes, I would argue that Katie is actually the ambassadress for their 1st part of the 70s now. She is, I don't know that she's on sign. And now that she's gone back to the UK, fandom have been wanting her back there for years, and she is very much celebrated. Now, also in the audios with Tim Trelaw on Big Finish. She is the absolute linchpin. And my recommendation for this area, if we were doing those, we'd go and listen to those new 3rd doctor adventures with Katie and Tim Trolloy. They're just gorgeous. And it's exactly who Joe, you're all saying you felt to be, well now she actually is in these stories. I honestly think too, riding around when she was written out, it was the right time. like she going to marry or whatever happened. Like, it was the right decision. And then everybody moving on at the right time. In the past, I thought, oh, people outstayed there welcome and maybe John did too long, but I don't think so. Did he? I don't think so anymore. I think, I think it's, it is a good amount of time for all of them. And in that last season, please, yes. They do have a new character in Sarah Jane Smith, and I really like Liz in that season. It's completely different, Prashawn or whatever you want to say it. She's sterner, isn't she? Yeah, yeah. But I love the character in there and it gives an oomph to that final push before they all move on. Would you have liked him to stay another year, Todd? No, I don't think you should have. don't think so? I agree. My gut feeling, sorry, just before we move on. is that, and it's my real problem with this new era of Doctor Who, I'm just washing changing the whites too often is too many doctors. I'm sick of this. I want... I just, please just stay around, one of you. Maybe fatigue. Maybe with less episodes? Maybe, maybe, maybe. But the 3 season doctor thing worked in the 60s when you've got a lot of stories. Yes. And the 60s was moving at a different pace for viewers anyway. Okay, we've talked about a lot of stuff that we like. Is there any villain in this era? I've joined... Mine would be Barry Letts' CSO. But he's pushing the envelope with everything, which is great, and you wouldn't have what we have now if people like him didn't do that. But I don't know. I think there's some ropey riding. Uh, and I think uh, the season finales tend to be poorly written and I think Bob Baker and Dave Martin's stories tend to be poorly written. But there's just a sort of charm, and there's nothing that really craters horribly. Like maybe the worst story is the time monster. Not funny, you should say, but... But the Time Monster is not universally loved, but God, it's fun. The Time Monster is my fault. I was going to say, is my favourite comedy in almost after City of Death in Doctor Who. It's the only one after City of Death that I laugh all the way through. There are some great moments It's very, very funny and mischarged. My thing, just because, you know, I would say if, well, it's in my head, the monster of this period is simply what we were saying before, production demands and the way that the show was now being produced. And we, you've already said it, stories don't need to be 6 or 7 episodes. I would have liked, put that money in just, but let's just have a 10 episode season. We don't need this many. We've got 4 stories. Let's just make 12 episodes. That would have been fine. And how interesting they would have been cut down. We would have had real value, real quality. Do you really have to fill the screen, spend the same amount of money and just show reruns. I would have been fine. Roger Delgado. Yes. We can't ignore him. I think his contribution is immense. I really like him. The fact that in his 1st season, he is in every story, and and yet by the end of the Damon's, you still find him charming and compelling to watch, looking at it as an adult, it's like, yeah this is master fever, but God, it's not Roger's fault. happy to watch Roger every week. And, you know, it's it's something that was very successfully emulated by Stephen Moffat in this year's season of Doctor Who with Missy, not in every single episode. And again, not just as, oh, I'm in a scene in this episode actually playing a role in several plots throughout the season either through giving advice or through taking action. And there's a reason that I think that she is the finest actor to play the role since Delgado in that both she and Delgado get the thing about them having been friends. And that very clearly comes across. And it's amazing when you consider that John did feel a bit threatened by having such a good actor working opposite him. But that was solved by the fact that Roger Delgado was very happy fact, Michelle Gomez all the time. It did hurt. I've pulled off my Michelle Gomez mask now. But boy, she is good. She is good. I'd never thought of that before, but you're right. They do play the same way. Yeah. And they... There was a wonderful like digital... Sounds rude, isn't? There was a wonderful digital trailer a few weeks before season 9 which announced Michelle Gomez was going to be back in Magician's Apprentice, and she's reading a book on set called How to Be Evil. Oh, you've caught me at it. And as she closes the book, Roger Delgado's picture is on the back of it. No, it's rather fabulous. But, you know, with Nathan's got the full set. With Anthony Ainley's performance, and I'm not going to criticise Eric Roberts on this because it's hard to judge, but even with John Sims performance, you never really get the strong impression that these 2 used to be friends with John Sim, you know, you get the bit where he's dying and David Tennant's cradling him, but it's like, oh, I wanted the buildup to that. And straight away in terror of the autons, when the master's holding a gun on the doctor in his lab, you do get the impression that these 2 have a long history. And I don't know if John and Roger had known each other beforehand. I know they knew of each other. They were intrigued to be working together, but I don't know if they ever... I think New Grade had kept them in the same stable ITC, you know mucking them out, occasionally. But yeah, and God, Roger's loss, obviously it is an incredible loss to all the cast. There was a fan consensus that the reason that John season last season wasn't good was because he was missing Katie Manning, and I do agree that John is more subdued in that last season. I don't think it's because of Katie's departure. I think it's because of Roger's death. And also halfway through the season. He decides not to go on anymore, which, yes, is partially due to the fact that Nick and the unit boys were being phased out. Roger was gone, Katie was gone. He was still enjoying working with Liz. It's the thing of he's doing a job he enjoys, but at the same time a lot of the fun has gone out of it because the people he was having fun with have gone. So he asked for a rise and when he didn't get it, he just said, oh okay. I think we can see it the same way that Patrick McNee used to say I'll ask for a ridiculous amount of money, and if they give it to me, oh, well, I'll stay, but I think everyone had really agreed it was time for changes across the board. Yeah Before I ask my final 3 questions about the zero. I also think Nick Courtney, the majority of his stories are obviously in this era, and he is an unsung hero in so many of those in his delivery and performance when the brigadier is written all over the place, and, you know, yeah. I just wanted to say that we need to say something. He needs to be mentioned. He really does. The brigadier. I'm going to go over to another show which At this time had not yet been created, but Red Dwarf. Red Dwarf, the reason Holly was written out after series 5 is Crichton had taken over the role of exposition. The brigadier's role at the beginning of the Pertwee era is exposition. He turns up and says, right, this is the mystery, doctor, you need to go off and investigate it. And I think the fact that the brigadier is given so much character is the sheer force of Nicholas Courtney's will. He's not just mother from the Avengers turning up in a strange location. He'll come into a scene and doctor, this is the drama. But he's like I'm not bloody leaving the scene. This is my show. This is my lab. This is my rompers and I'm wearing them all year. very true And I think Nick is totally worthy of that. The other 2 unit boys. Look, I know they come in for criticism in various areas of fandom. But when I was a kid, Captain Hot Pants was... Which captain? There are so many. You felt safe with unit. You felt safe with the brigadier and Sergeant Benton and Captain Yates. You felt safe and you felt they would protect the doctor. In that order. All right, speaking of ordering things. One to watch. I'm going to go within Inferno. I'm going to go with Spearhead from Space actually. Definite thing Or Carnival of Monsters. I knew you were going to say kind of all of monsters. I would say my all-time favourite is a little boy simply because we saw the seasons over and over again and they're still all good has to be final season. I like it, doctor, feeling the death knell. I do like the subdued quality after all the exuberance. The end of the party can sometimes be the best. So for me, it's probably death to the Daleks. I just really love it. Nice, me too. Oh my god. I want to say that's how it ends because I really love it. It's so good isn't it? The Green Death? Yeah, yep, yep. There's a lot in there. There's a lot in there. All right, one to avoid. Colony in space. Once for a peladin. Monster of peladin. That Dalek thing that goes for 7 years. planet a planet. I can say that, Tom. hated it. Oh, yes, I absolutely learned that as well. That will also go in the bottomless pit with the monster pellon. Terry, just a quick note. Terry Nation actually gets my villain award. Planet of the Daleks. Now, I love Planet of the Daleks. I love that it's the greatest hit, but if Terry Nation, if you're going to complain that they use the Daleks without your permission when you get the opportunity to write a dialect script, you've got a bloody match day of the Daleks, mate, not just regurgitate everything. moving on. Or write a news story. Yes, no. That's... Yeah, Dylan, perfect. wonderful. All right. We're making a movie with John Perch week. And which story is it going to be? The time monster. Yeah, I agree. It would be hilarious. Directed by Mel Brooks. Well, I think, you know, if you're going to make a movie, you've got to take a story that sort of fails, that's ambitious, but kind of fails in some way, or that would benefit from some more money or another pass at the script. And like Time Monster is so terrible, but so terribly enjoyable as well. The other one would be invasion of the dinosaurs. That was both very... That was that was my nomination. One of my considerations is invasion, the dinosaurs. I have another. It's called Frontier and Space, but it's the 12 part epic. Yeah, where you actually have the earth stuff and there's something there and then the Daleks appear, boom, and you've got the rest of it. Yeah, I was thinking the master's Dalek plan. Good one. Yep. But I will say the mutants. Because I think with a much tighter script, completely rewrite the script, Todd. So it's not Bob Baker and Dave Martin's words, but the central idea about this race evolving it to wonderful sci-fi idea, but also it is a story about racism and apartheid. And yeah, I think it has... It comes down against them, right? Yes. Stubs and cotton in it. Stubbs and Cotton are in it, played by John Boyega and that guy what plays Poe in Star Wars. So good that we can't remember his game. Oscar Isaac. Oxerizer. I couldn't remember if Oscar Isaac was him or Kylo Wren. but yeah Oscar Eiser can and John Boyaker. Are we making the films now or back in the time? we're making them now. They're making them now. It's a time travel thing, so you can handing my book. We're talking about the same cast. Okay, we'd be having, because these are all about the time that they're made, and we've always said that Doctor Who talks about the very much the era in which it's produced, I would like John Frankenheimer to direct, and I would like Mike Hodgers to produce Mind of Evil, because Mike Hodges did the 1st get Carter Frankenheimer did Manchurian candidate. And it's a really fantastic, Cold War, lovely piece with SFL elements, and it really predicates what was happening with China and the Eastern Bloc and us. And it was great in it. He really is. And so, and so is Pertley. And the Kellum machine is just ridiculous. I'd love to see it. That'd be great. done on the screen. That's a great, great show. We didn't discuss your choice, which was inferno. I think that's also a great trip. I think it's really good. Again, it's friend of the podcast, Kate Orman's all-time, probably favourite per week, probably. It'd be nice if it was shorter, so I would go for that too. Yeah, yeah. I still think Planet of the Spiders is the most emotionally redolent one of this era. It just feels so great. Okay, moving on. We're now back into the black and white era of the show, and it's the Patrick Trout era. What do we have to say about the man, the era, the time? He's still my favourite doctor. and, watching them in order, and my god, being able to watch ones which didn't exist in a watchable form 3 years ago. We've had enemy of the world come back, web of fear. Ice Warriors has been animated, Moonbase has been animated. We've got a recon of underwater menace. Power of the Dialects has been animated. Suddenly from video where we had, I think, 7 Patrick Trout stories we could watch in some kind of full form and even then the invasion was missing 2 episodes. We're up to 13 of 21 with the wheel in space now getting an official recon as well. When what? Did you not know about this? For a time, it's going to be exclusive to the Brit box streaming service in the US because Brit box is experimenting with doing advanced recons, so some animation, but advanced recons, because Doctor Who's incredibly popular on their service, they want to be able to stream the whole series. So it's not confirmed that they're going to do more after that, but Wheel in Space is a test case. So we've gone from being able to see less than a 3rd of Trouton's era to being able to see 2 thirds of it. And Patrick Troughton... You said earlier, Nathan, Peter Davidson, best actor to play the doctor, I think it's Pat. And I think it's Pat in particular because even more than John Pertwee, when you watch him in interviews, He's so different from his role as the doctor. He's still magical to me. He's a little bit dangerous and a little bit alien without overemphasising it, but the revelation for me, watching all through again, is the dear departed Deborah Watling. And the fact that Victoria was not just a silly little screaming head on a stick, you know, she was scared a lot of the time because of her background, but is written and brilliantly performed as that pertly thing of being scared and doing what you have to do anyway and getting on with it. And nothing is more evident than that than the wonderful moment in enemy of the world where she goes to backhand Pat across the face. You know? And that in a way comes out of nowhere. And it reminds me of that note that was given for Lola McGovern back in 1963 Barbara's forerunner that it was the note of, but sometimes capable of timid rabbit courage. And that's Victoria. You know, she's very, very afraid, but when her back is against the wall, she will lash out. She will speak her mind and what have you. I think in a lot of scripts she was poorly served, but Deborah never poorly served us. Wow, well, my revelations are that I think Patrick is the best actor have played the doctor. He is mesmerising to watch. Along with that, what you've just had to say about Deborah Watting in the character, Victoria, certainly getting those episodes back in that moment when she goes to bitch slap the doctor, it's fantastic. And I will now say that Victoria is my least favourite companion of the era and I've not revealed that before. But because of the character traits. I'll say now, having seen more episodes, that there's moments that she has brilliance in those moments where I just want to bitch slip on myself. And that's not Debbie's fault, right? So that's been a revelation. I think the major revelation is that I really don't like a lot of the stories. Like, they're too long. really codified, similar, aren't they? And there's very few that I would actually put in my top 20, Doctor Who's. like just in my head. But I love Patrick Troughton. And I love the other companions. And I guess it's the way television is made. And also, I think the other thing is how the perch wee era begins before perch wee's there, really. with Enemy of the World, and then what comes after it. So it's just, it's starting that perch we feel is starting before perch. Like, in those stories. I'm just saying like there's just, there's just more of that than I thought there was going to be. I really hope we, they more episodes turn up. really do. I didn't actually say that Pete was the best actor to play the role. I said, you're one of the best. And the other one is Pat. I think he's extraordinary. And I think that the loss of so many episodes, particularly at the beginning of his series, is tragic. And there's no way that those animations can replicate his performance. you know, they're mere guesses. And they, you know, it's not a living person. And I remember watching, you know, you've got that massive run from 10th planet episode for all the way through, so whatever the hell, the 1st episode of the underwater menace that exists is too. And there's, we don't have any of those. And even in the underwater menace, which is kind of terrible. The moment you see him acting. He is so incredibly good. Yes. And he's generous. He's subtle, he's thoughtful, he's really, really amazing. And I love his breathless panic. That's that register that he does. I think he's really, really amazingly good. I think the stories are a bit samey, I think that season 5, apart from Enemy of the World, is, you know, just the same story each time. The stories are too long. But even then, some of the stories are really good. Like, I think the Ice Warriors is, you know, for a crummy base under siege of the kind that we've seen a bunch of times is actually pretty good. I think that the abominable snowmen is good. And there are maybe more experimental stories than you can remember, you know, there's nothing like the crotons in the rest of the era. There's nothing like the mind robber in the rest of the era. I think wheel in space is crazy and mental. You know, each base under siege does have a different feel to it. But it is a little bit of a disappointment after the heart and all era and just the sort of excesses of experimentation and the uncertainty about what we're doing to see the show settle down into a we fight monsters kind of mode. But in saying that, like, you know, season 4 is very much them taking those steps at defining what we consider to be Doctor Who in terms of the structure and all that sort of thing and they're getting more and more confident by the end of the season and then that season 5 is taking that and just sticking with that. So I think it's it, I see those things in it, is that you've got that experimentation as well as a child learning to walk and run in season 4 towards the end, then trying different things rather than just the same thing. Doctor Who becoming Doctor Who, if I can say it like that. No, I think that's absolutely right. I completely disagree with all of you. Surprise, surprise. This is all about athly tiresome. No, I'm now that shovel on the front of Sean Connery's Rolls-Royce in the Avengers movie that shouldn't have been made, chugging through received opinion. I think this isn't Doctor Who. And I think we have, we do actually have the best doctor, the best actor. I agree to play the part of Doctor Who, and he plays it perfectly and he's the only reason, I would agree also the supporting cast and there are many of them, and there are secondary characters within each one that just enliven it, because Britain was full of great repactors who had come from all radio. Our whole, out, that whole generation were audio attuned, audio natives would probably say that. And I think that you do the entire era of disservice by trying to watch it, whether it be loose cannon or an animated reconstruction. I found power of the Daleks. absolutely. At the Nadir of a viewing experience to watch. And it's one of my all-time favourite audios. Experience it in the audio version. This is a great voice actor playing the part of the doctor with some really terrific supporting people around him. And there are very beautifully attuned scripts considering the horrendous program that they were having to work at. And the fatigue that is in the ensemble cast and very much they're held back by the lead actor, who you can see by the end of it, is just wanting to throw crates around the set, that moment in the space pirates when the station is breaking apart is an entire metaphor for Mr. Troughton's response to the entire production. Sling it out into space. but it is very different isn't it? But it works beautifully as an audio experience. And I've listened to this entire era now 3 times all the way through on the BBC recordings and watched the ones that we have. It works better as audio. You're not distracted by the desultory production standards, the lachrymose direction. It's largely pretty abysmal direction this era. Everyone's tired. There isn't any money. We're going through the motion. We're making it because we have to. But we still have really good people in it. Let them shine, let them do what they do best. Listen to it on radio and then it's really good. trying to watch it. It's not a great period of Doctor Who. I think, though, that you do miss out on crucial bits of Pat's performance if you can't see. You miss him pinching the girls off set. You know, it's like a little tap on the bottom. But this is the twinkle on his iron, and what he does with his hands and... That's what we're talking about. I walked into that. You know, even at this late stage of the flight through entirety, I still walk strange. Thank you, Richard. Yes, I see I see what you're saying with the direction and that doing so many episodes a year, you know, it's evolving from the early 60s way of doing television like it's changed, but they're still finding their feet in terms of trying to get it right. apace or whatever. Like, it's very different from heart, like, yeah, like, completely different. Yeah. And they are trying to, and we've covered all this in the talking about it. They are trying to find a milure, a way to keep going with demands and they'll get there with pertry. Yes, exactly. This is the bridge between. Unlike anything else. Part of the reason I love season 6 so much is it combines that base under siege thing that we had in season five. But it starts to be more experimental again and you've got a stronger female companion, you've got Zoe. And despite the fact that Pat is tired. He is reinvigorated by Wendy Padbury and all of their scenes together, like things like the crotons and the war games. You can clearly see that he adores working with her. Not that he ever expressed any negativity about working with Frazer or Debbie or even further back, Anika and Ben. It's, it's, it's a whole ensemble cast that keeps him going again. Yeah, exactly. And refreshing that ensemble cast keeps him interested. Is he the hero of the era? Is there a villain of the era? Jerry Dovers. Yeah. And I'd say conversely, probably Victor Pemberton and Derek Sherwin might be the heroes. Yeah, I think Hazman and Lincoln are the villains of the year. Are they the Dominators? They're the dominators. But hang on. Who wrote abominable snowman? Yeah, I know, but you love that. I know, I know, but then you kind of look back on it. Xander has this thing about them because all the stories end up being slightly racist. Sabre is a young, highly exuberant and well-educated, highly intelligent man who has very strong opinions, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're universally right. Oh no, no, I'm not saying that at all. So I tend to, it is that he's his own little omnivorse right there. I'm disagreeing with him more and more as watching this. the dominators is terrible. Oh, look, I can't disagree with that. Although, it's also really funny and it's because it's really about the times. Well, it's about the times that Pat decided that he wasn't going to do this crap anymore. It's a great stinker. But then you've got the mind robber and the invasion right afterwards. And so you were saying that the heroes were production team. Yeah, I mean, you know, Victor Pemberton, who just passed. Yeah, just passed away recently. Um, going to join David, who's been... You know, Victor Pemberton. He was only script editor for a very short time, but from what it appears, he kind of informed that season 5 approach, which is very repetitious, but the richness of the characterisation is what makes it so good there. And even though I'm not a big fan of Fury from the Deep, I cannot fault the characterisations in that story, I think possibly they are a little too strong, the doctor and friends are left with not much to do, which is one of my criticisms of that. But as a piece of science fiction as a piece of horror, I think it's brilliant. And Derek Sherwin, of course, In the background throughout the bit of season 5 that he worked on, he kind of went, oh, I'm not sure this quite works. So when he comes into power in season six. He's like, no, you know, we're going to have different setting every week and sometimes it's going to be an invasion, but oh we've got this thing about people using brain power to power a spaceship. And then to save the show. We gonna set it on earth. And he does save the show in that way. That's a good point. So, on that point, we're now going to go, one to watch. Oh, one to watch the enemy of the world. I'd say that, but I'm going to say the Crocheons. Yeah, I'm going to say I have similar reservations to you, Richard about the animation, but I'm going to say Power of the Daleks. Ha, ha, ha. I would say listen to I love the Highlanders, but I really love the war games. Can't watch that. Yeah, it's great. Really drunk. 10 episodes. That's great. One to avoid. Oh, oh, the Dominators, awful. Yes. Dominators. Space Pirates. At Lisa Space Pirates has Milo Clancy. Actually, Moonbase pretty crusty. Oh, okay. Yep, okay. And now, Patrick Chowden is starring in the movie of the week. I reckon there's a whole heap of them that you can do. What a choice. But I'm going to pick the invasion. But only if we can have Kevin Stoney back as Tobias Vaughan as well. It's a great choice. I am going to pick the wheel in space. Yes, that was my 2nd thing. Because again, I think tighten the script top a bit. Be really good. Yeah, mine is enemy of the world with pretty much the same director, which is I picked last time. I'm going to go with the macro terror. choice. Yeah, because exactly. In fact, you can shoot it in Port Myron, and you've got the same you know, you've got... Yeah, it's perfect. Yes, perfect. All right. Back to the beginning. A heart in the era. Whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop. We've got to do our stick. That's the last. The hero of the Hartnell era is William Hartnell. Yep. He created the role. He has his real performance has been kind of forgotten in a way by fandom when he became in the 80s, the grumpy one. He's not the grumpy one. He is sweet and funny and childlike and grandfatherly. It's an extraordinarily charismatic performance. It's a very different role from what the doctor's role ends up being, but I think he's marvellous, and then the heroine of the era. Do I need to, do I need to say? It's it's Jackie Hill. And if it hadn't been for her, we wouldn't be here. I totally agree with you and I think watching this, I just love watching them. I love watching him, all the little things he does. Television was made so differently in that era and I love watching it from that point of view. You know, I challenge any actor to do essentially what is a state 25 minute stage play each week. Yeah. without getting retanks. Yeah. I agree with both of you, but I must include an honourable mention for verity left. Of course. Yes, yeah. And, you know, that biopic shows also how important Warris Hussein was in the early days, but he was gone by the end of year one in terms of Doctor Who has had a long successful career. But yeah, verity stuck around 2 full years. Yeah, she did. which is longer than most did on series that, you know, serials for that era. You tended to just do a season, even big productions. The Avengers were independent television. So they weren't BBC. It was a different way of doing TV. And even then, Leonard White only did a season and a half of the Avengers. John Bryce did a season and a half. Brian Clemons did. Yeah, the last 3 seasons with a bit of John Rice. My shows were much shorter. We only seem to remember the big epic ones because they're the ones that are available and the ones that were repeated. The ones that survived. Yeah, exactly. But our parents were watching things much more episodically. Doctor Who was a rare thing and a big event right from day one. I would add to all of those that honorific that you've named Delia Derbyshire. And I don't think you would have tuned in for a week too if she wasn't there. And Ray Cusick, because I don't think it would have tuned in after a few weeks. If Cusick's Nations script is great, but honestly, it was written by Heinland and a few other blokes in the 50s several times over. It's Cusick that makes it work. He's designed the Daleks. Wow. I think that nation actually, this is nation's heyday, though because he creates 4 Doctor Who stories and each of them is vastly different than the last one. The funny thing is, Johnny Morris recently on Twitter has been going on this wonderful thing of doing photo reconstructions, i.e just a photo from the set with deleted scenes from Doctor Who scripts, and he's got his hands on a copy of the mission of the unknown script. And the mission to the unknown script. He says, this is very odd. It has clearly been written on 2 different typewriters, Dennis Spooner. And it's literally things like, uh, tract of dialogue will be done on one typewriter, and then the reply from the other character. So it's a photocopy of the script. It's not an original, but the margins are different. The lettering slightly different. So they've put a piece of paper over the top, whoever this other scriptwriter was, Dennis Spooner, and just typed typed over the top of the paper. Don't you think that that sort of tarry nation all the way through? I mean, if it hadn't been for Bob Holmes, Genesis of the Daleks would probably have been terrible. And Chris Boucher, you know, turned Terry Nation's Blake 7 scripts into things that are sort of watchable. Could actually be shot, yeah. Yeah, so Dennis Spooner is also... Yeah. Dennis Spooner, Denver and Whitaker. Oh, absolutely. And I'm also going to throw in a couple of other actors on screen. I think Maureen O'Brien and Peter Purvis. Yeah, very good. You know, unsung heroes in that 3rd series. Yeah, I do agree that as much as I enjoy her performance. Jackie Lane isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath of all those other people. It's simply because all those other people, and William Russell had a role in holding the show together. Whereas Jackie Lane was never given that power. You know, she was just kind of told, okay, you're the new Dr. Huger on you go and was thrown into this chaotic situation, which, you know, the viewer at home had no idea how chaotic things were on Doctor Who. Yeah, Caroline Ford did. I think in season 3, it is visible on screen, how chaotic the production is. But on a screen this big, he says, you know, holding up fingers about 4 inches away from each other. Who's the producer after John Wiles? That's when Jerry Davis and Innes Lloyd come in. I think Inis Lloyd. I'm not going to say he's a superhero compared to the others, but you know, he's got streamlining production and setting story links and that sort of thing. It does a massacre, have we? It does. He makes changes to modernise the show. He really does a great job. might be might be one of the piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing. John Welles did necessarily a bad job or had bad ideas, but he had very poor execution in how he handled William Hartnell because it just seems from everyone's comments, including his own, his attitude just seemed to be. No, I don't care if you're the star, you'll fall into line, and as soon as you present William Hartner with that doesn't matter what you do afterwards, because quite rightly, I think more than any other actor who's played the role, William Hartnell deserved creative control to an extent. It's so tough on a weekly budgeted, time and money budgeted TV production. We've talked about this is the thing that's come through in today's discussion. It looked what went wrong with Tom. wrong with, you know, any actor that you give too much scope to. There is a balance to that question because maybe if Colin had been allowed to actually speak more. We would have had a show that continued on. Yes, yes. But, and I agree with you with Billy, but then he was also cantankerous and frustrated with himself and also a man of his own times. But there this is several shows, just in itself. in what we're looking at here. There's at least 3 different shows. The only thing tying it together is Billy. I would also like to make an honourable mention is that we did 1st time around to Carol Land, watching her again. The tremulousness and timorousness and just terror that she feels going through this is exactly what the little person sitting at home is supposed to be feeling and would be with the sounds. Nothing had ever sounded like this before. Deadland looked like this. So it was extraordinary. I think she actually handles it well in that 1st season. She gives what I believe she was expected to give. Okay. So, one to watch. Just one. Just one. I'm going to say the Romans. Oh, yeah. It's so funny It is. It is good. I'll go with you because I really enjoy watching that. Wonderful. I think I've said this before. I showed it in Doctor Who Club to a bunch of, you know, 12, 13 year olds who thought it was hilarious and enjoyed it on its own terms. I think it's it's really fun. Um, I'm going to choose one that can be bought on a DVD and watched because this is kind of a recommendation. I am going to choose the Dalek Invasion of Earth. If I were if I were choosing an audio, it would be the Daleks master plan. But yeah, but really Dale Convasion of Earth, it is a good one. It showcases the 4 regulars very well. I know we find the ending a little hard to take, but on the surface, it's a very powerful ending. One to avoid. Oh, sorry. Did you have one? Oh, I haven't done my joyous thing. Well, obviously you all have to listen to the massacre. You just do. It's really well reading, really well. I really like it. Yeah. And I think didn't Stan Spooner have a bit of tweaking in that as well, because he was behind the scenes. a whole lot of times there. Sorry, Richard. So one to avoid. Well, obviously the massacre. Doctor. Take a drink. Take a drink. Celestial toy maker. Oh, it's awful. That is that that is a great nomination. The web planet. No, that's wonderful. We love that. Rob will be pleased. Only in its current form. I haven't got I haven't got up to what we make as a movie. Richard. Oh, one to avoid. No, I'd have to say celestial... It's so dull. Okay, movie with William Hartnell. Well, mainly not Peter Cushion. Not Peter Cushing. Damn. Well, if it was Peter Cushing, of course, I was going to say Daleks versus Mecons. Yes. But as a movie, I'd have to say Dalek's Masterplan. I agree. That's that's pretty awesome. I would also be going with the web planet. Is it funny because I was thinking Web Planet as a film because it could just be so beautiful. Jodorovsky version of it. If, you know, if you've seen the Doco on his unrealised making of Dune, that you just, yeah, that is... I also really love myth makers. I just love that story. That's good. Well, I mean, my other nomination was actually the entire William Harten era. As a film. As films. Yeah, with David Bradley and Gemma Powell. Yeah, yeah, why not? Except for the massacre. Please, Nathan. All right. Have we reached the end of our flight through entirety? Oh, is it? At the beginning? Or is it the beginning? So we will be back next year. Yes. Some months. Whether you like it. or not. With the 2005 series. So it's not quite the end. But before we get there, like, you know, at this point, what are you feeling? What's your feeling of your journey? Are we yet to come? Well, you know, like this is my 1st time watching the whole show through, and it's been fantastic, and having the opportunity to chat about it, um, and, uh, you know, the fact that people are inexplicably disposed to listen to us. Thank you to my own. Amazing. It is. It is. So yeah, it's been really something. It's been incredible coming in. And thank you to the 3 of you and to listeners for welcoming welcoming, for welcome. What am I trying to say? Welcoming. Thank you. Me in and letting me stay? No, I wasn't going to. I was going to say... I'm getting tank tied. I think Matt Smith said an episode. We're all different people at different points now, lives, but we keep on moving forward. And going back and watching this, I'm taken back to different points in my life. And I come to each era with different experiences and different memories and different feelings, and none are less valid than the other. And, you know, what I give a 10 to in one era, I may not give a 10 to in another, like different criteria, like you are a flawed person and you have different feelings about things, but it's been a, it's been a delight to watch the whole thing with you guys and discuss it. I'm with Nathan. This is the 1st tour I've ever been able to sit through it. And, yeah, it's just not something you would do lightly, and it's equally frustrating and joyful in all the others, but I realised like it's like any process of education, it's a, you learn so much about the times that you're responding to and viewing and also the times we're living in now. This is now, unfortunately, all the post-modernists are correct. This is a text. And it is worthy of study, and it is also worthy of discussion simply because of what it else it brings up. Far apart from what it is itself. It gives us so much more just by being involved in it. And by being with all of you. So thank you. So this idea started drunkenly. drunkenly. Yeah, actually in 2012 and um, you guys were around here for one of our, one of our cocktail parties and um, we were standing around the doctor action figures talking. And, I, I, it just struck me that, This is actually really interesting what we're talking about. I've heard of James should never be allowed to ever sleep. Shut up, James, back in your box. I've heard of podcasts RA thing, so maybe I should maybe I should make one. And so 6 months later, that's what we did. Um, actually longer than 6 months, I think. I think it was over a year. I think I parked it for a while. Um, And yeah, so everyone who's been on the podcast, including James, of course, who was on our stones of blood. I asked initially and as the perfect victim, yes. As I recall at the time, both Todd and James were kind of a bit just a bit shy about doing the idea, you know, about putting yourself out there. So it became the 3 of us who it was originally. And Richard, there was that time where you became rather busy and we'd already discussed Todd. Todd coming on. that I regenerated to Todd. Yes. Thank you, Richard. so to speak. But, you know, we'd already discussed Todd going on, coming on for Colin, because Richard, you said, even at the very beginning, I don't know if I can watch Colin. And as you said earlier, you haven't watched all of Colin. And, you know, that the idea then became James would be a substitute for Nathan, if we ever managed to claw Nathan's hand off the microphone, which hasn't happened. So I apologise, James. Um... As for myself personally, what I have discovered is I can set out and complete a project for once. You know, I've started I've started 17 novels and I've never got beyond chapter one. You look at work or you look at study that we try and do. It's very tough to get through anything. And, you know, then you get so, and to do it with such wonderful insimpatico company. And, and, you know, people who each of you and James over on Bondfinger, who share my passion enough to set aside days of your life to do this with me. I'm incredibly grateful for for people who have then downloaded it shared it, listened to us, given feedback, +and negative, because we've received negative feedback, which we have folded into the show to improve it. Um, And a one star rating. And a one star rating. Oh really? Yeah, our very 1st iTunes rating was one star from someone... I am I am Frank. I am Frank. I am friends, but it's not friend of the podcast, nor but friends because he's wonderful. With a one-star review with that was bad, and that was our 1st review. But to have... But to have all of that support from the people here in this room from my partner, Rod, who is currently in the next room. With James. From James over on Bondfinger and from the listeners, has it's been really life affirming. And, you know, we've alluded in this podcast. The last few months have been very hard for us on a personal level with what's happening politically, and that extends back years with the fight we've been having with our government. So to have this positive experience. In my life, in our lives has been wonderful. And there are people I have met through this online that when I go off travelling next year, I hope to meet up with for a drink. Um, I won't I won't name names because I'm bound to forget someone. Um, Yeah, and um, look, I'm gonna make an announcement at this point. Um, we will be coming back for the new series, but I will be stepping down from running the podcast. Nathan will be taking over running the podcast. I will still be in it occasionally. But I'm talking one or 2 stories a season. And my reasoning for that is. The classic series, and we've all discussed this, was there for me as a kid, and so it has those memories. Whereas the new series which I enjoy, is there for me as an adult and it really, I made this decision a long time ago, and and informed the crew. Um, But it really came to a head when I was writing for a book called Hating to Love, and I was to write about 4 classic and 2 new series stories. And the 4 classic ones just tripped off the keyboard. And the 2 new series stories. I just couldn't muster it and it's, It's, There's a layer missing. There's not my experience as a child. There's just my experience as an adult. And also another part of it is, and I've been discussing this with Nathan, who's taking over. For a long time, we've discussed having guests on the podcast and part of my classic series experiences, whenever I've experienced it with someone before the internet came about, it was in the same room and that's something I wanted for flight through entirety. So as we move into the new series, there will be more guests. And that's not necessarily because I was resistant to guests, but I just wanted that live feeling of people together. But times change and so must we. So, um, Once again, I'd like to say, thank you to the 3 people in this room. Thank you to James. Thank you especially to Rod, who puts up with me taking like half of Sunday off, which is our day together to edit an episode of Fly Through Entirety. Um. And thank you all very much for listening at home. Can I just say I want to think on a personal level both yourself and Nathan for the amount of work that you guys have done over this time, you know, the editing, the website, the promotion, and this is out there, they just do an incredible job. I could not do it. So from the bottom of my bottom of my heart, thank you, Brendan and thank you, Nathan. And, well, thank you, Todd. Something I would like to bring up just briefly is what I've always thought each of us bring, and I don't know if I've necessarily vocalised this, but Richard, your knowledge of the history, the culture, film, literature, the stuff you make up James, expressionism. I'm glad you acknowledge that. Doctor Who facts. Our show would our show would not have the depth of knowledge. and depth of thought without you. Or the X certificate that we... Oh, thank you. Doctor Who's so much more than, you know, you can have a whole room full of your lovely friends and you'll still find out new things about them as much as about the show. itself. I guess it's what I mean when I say it's a collective experience bigger than the sum of its parts. It's about the people that are involved with it. It's always been a living thing. Which brings me to Todd. And Todd, it has been such a pleasure to hear from you how Doctor Who changed your life then, and how being in the podcast has changed your life now. And something I've always loved that you bring to the podcast aside from knowledge of the ratings and how the show went down, is how willing you are to be open about the personal effect it's had on you. Because I think for a lot of our listeners, they've had a similar experience. So thank you. And you. I could look in another direction. Um, yeah, Todd touched on the fact that Nathan does so much. He does the website. Nathan started helping out with the editing around the Peter Davis era, which is where I was thinking about quitting. And that's the reason Nathan stepped up is that I was just going to walk away. Um, and he's done fantastic job taking over the editing and there's been, as you've heard, because whoever edits the episode does the, um, the voiceover at the end. As you've heard, there's been periods where it hasn't been alternating. It's been Nathan doing all of them because I've just said to him look, right now, I just can't. Um, and you know, if I've suddenly thrown an episode at him saying no, I'm too busy this week, he's never complained. And Um, just bouncing ideas about the podcast. And when I decided I was moving on and he asked if he could take over. It's been really strange. Nathan keeps coming to me and saying, oh, I'm thinking about doing this. Is that okay? And it's like, there's a reason I'm giving it away. I don't want to have to worry about that. Um, editing the other 2 hours. Speak to yourself, Richard. I have no idea how much was cut. Yeah, so pretty much without Nathan, I would not have been here for the last 50 episodes. So, thank you, Nathan. Um, yeah, so what is there left to say? Flight through entirety will return. In a few months, we will be having some commentaries here and there. We haven't recorded the Colin commentary or the McCoy commentary. Or the Davison. We will be recording those when Nathan gets back from his trip. So we will have some sporadic releases between now and then. and Flight through entirety will return in a regenerated form with a new theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. But gentlemen, does anyone have anything they'd like to say before we close out? Have a drink, dealers. Have a drink, dear listener. And for the final time from me. Thank you very much for listening, good night. Good night. See you soon. Thank you everyone. That was flight through entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. Theme arrangements by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells. This episode, thank you all for listening and good night, was recorded on October 28, 2017. Flight through entirety will return in 2018. Remember ages ago when we had a caption competition, well, the winner was Tristan Alfaro, and Richard will be in touch with you Tristan, in order to deliver your prize. Stay tuned for the usual background chat, and we'll see you next year. Yep, right, new break. Can I take the microphone? Yes. No, you need to. You need, you need these to be able to. we okay? We're okay. Look, it's the final episode. runs a bit long. I did actually want to also cite state of decay because I adored it at the time. I just loved it. When everything comes back, do that as normal. Did you? I just, it was so, this is what we've been wanting to see for so long. Elegant. That's also so elegant. It's, and it's, we have this collective thing of Johnny Byrne terrible, terrible, terrible. Actually, look at what he did. Look at the early stuff he did. And his 1999 scripts aren't that bad either. The early ones anyway. We are almost done. As we travel and time to come. I think you've done a real good job with this job. Well, you've done a gorgeous job, Tom. We can't do sort of small merry void again for all those years because we've done them all already. You know, you needed to ask us things that we'd different. I can't see it. I've wondered how you're going to do it and going back, let's... Very, very well. No, we've never done it. Yeah, you know, we couldn't... But you had that one where I said we had to get Tony because the ratings were playing. It should be that one when I said that. We kept listen to the ball. What did he say? It was just off the cuff, but I listened to us. I've been going back listening to our ones just randomly and I've heard the one where I can't remember which one it is when we're talking and I'm sitting here. It's one when I'm just backed up in you just a year and I just say well, you're as a natty or a program game. We had to retarded because I'm raising this sort of podcast for play. And I thought, God, it was funny. It's a nice moment. Would you like a looking guy? I don't know where I was. Because I always edit it. It's about 10 minutes per hour. Yeah, still slow. Maybe a bit less than that. And then, Then I listen to it again while I'm writing the show notes and anything that I hear where it's kind of like, Can I fix that terrible edit? Was that terrible at it? We'll get a lot of inquiry dust being over the flight. Was that us? Okay, um. Yes, that's for you, darling, and there's tea in the pot. pot Is anyone else having some? Yours is one chipped. It's at work, it's much loved. Season 15. I use it as a doorstop. I'm actually recording this.