Don’t Kill the Lizard Lady

Hello, Delissa, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast with knobbly knees and turned out toes and a poisonous wart on the end of its nose. I'm Nathan. I'm Todd. I'm Brendan. And I'm Eric. Well, we've been bringing back classic Doctor Who monsters at the rate of about one a year for a few years now, and so this week it's time to see how the Siberians have been getting on 40 years after their 1st introduction by resident Pertwee giant lizard enthusiast Malcolm Hulk. Can they live up to the weight of our expectations? Let's find out as we discuss the hungry earth. So, Eric, are you a Silurians fan? Of the story or the race of subterranean reptile people? Well, let's start with the let's start with the 1970s story. I quite enjoy it. It suffers from a lot of the sort of 70s, the part we air, to be particular, issue of maybe it's an episode or 2 too long arguably. Uh, but I actually quite like it. It is, along with Inferno, I think it's as adult and dark as the show has ever gotten. Um, It is morally complex in a way that Doctor Who rarely actually is. It likes to pretend to be morally complex, but is actually usually quite simplistic. Uh, whereas with the Salurians, There's genuinely no good answer um, in a way that is uh, depressing is all hell, but convincing to reality. And I think that the, um, you know, the rubber monsters and things like that, you could sort of wave away, as I'm inclined to do with bad special effects from the past. But I think the story, and I think the dilemma presented, and the conflict between the doctor and the brigadier and the conflict with the Nissellirian society are all very realistic seeming and um, sort of give an indication about why certain races are just always going to have wars because they, they're always going to be people who want wars. And I mean, it's true to say that this covers a lot of the same ground. It's clearly intended to be a sort of tribute. Yeah, a tribute of homage to the original story. I really like the original Silurian story a lot. The rubber suits of the Silurians, however, are, you know, a bit lamentable when you look back on things. Yeah, um, you know, I love Pertwe's 1st season. I don't necessarily think that tone was sustainable for, say, 5 years, so I'm glad they pretty much reinvent the tone of pert Wii every couple of years, which I think is a great idea. And I do I do think this episode is a bit of a remix of those themes, but I like, I like what new stuff is introduced here. And um, Chris Chibnall did say at the time that while uh, Stephen Moffatt encouraged him to use the ideas as laid down by Malcolm Hulk. Chris Gibnall said his main inspiration from that was actually the novelisation. Which goes deeper into the characterisation of various people tells more from the perspective of the Silurians themselves and is one of the best target books. I think it's brilliant. I think cave monsters is absolutely one of the best of the range. And Hulk's novelisations are always, I think, really very good. Yeah, it makes colony in space. Exciting. Yeah, yeah. The, what what it does do, what the cave monsters does do is it fixes the biggest problem with asylurans, which is that they're 3 rubber monsters all voiced by Peter Hawkins, and none of them have names. And so by giving them names and giving them characters, which are present in the script, but maybe not in the production. Um, You know, the, wasn't the working title the monsters or the cave monsters and and the whole idea of this was the people in rubber suits are actually people. Yeah, it's definitely one of the, it's definitely one of the pert wee stories, uh, that spends at least some time trying to delineate and sort of, uh, interest the reader, the reader, the watcher, if you're watching on TV, the reader, if you're reading the book, in sort of the society and the characters of the individual. You know, quote unquote, aliens. Like these are not Ogrons, these are not, you know, whatever, uh Zog aliens. These are cellurians and they have different roles and they have different personalities and different outlooks. And I think you're right. I think the lack of communicability through the rubber suit and the same voice and the sort of need to just sort of shake your head to indicate which one of you is talking is problematic in the show. But the idea is clearly there to establish that the Salarians have a society, they are not a monolith. They have a diverse society of viewpoints and opinions. And that's something that, uh, Hulk would do again when he invented draconians, it's something he played again with a little bit when he brought in, uh, the sea devils, the aquatic cousin, of course. It's one of the times where the show, I think, actually tries to have the viewer identified not just with the humans, but identify with the quote unquote aliens as well. I think there's still a little bit of a problem in that eventually we just sort of settle on the idea that they want to kill us all and, you know, the old guy gets killed and the and Morca, is it Morca? I can never remember, the young Silurian kind of takes over and immediately just wants to kind of infect us all. And so they end up to some degree playing the role of monsters. And they probably do that a bit too quickly. I mean, I mean, too quickly is debateable in a 7 part story. But I understand what you're saying. It's sort of once they go evil. Once they go evil, it sort of happens all at once and that seems that is problematic. But I do think it's, um, The show raises an actual question, an actual problem that it doesn't really have the ability to solve within the confines of the show without, so drastically, you'll be working its version of Earth as to be unrecognisable. Like, it would be wild if after season 7, there were just, oh, and there are Salurian settlements all over the world, and people were just hanging out there with the Salarian building weird cave cities and stuff. That would be wild. We will get onto that next week. Katie Manning is a solo road. I'm just visioning in my head that cartoon image of that Solurian that's sitting in the, the interview chair with the, with the, is it cigarette? You know, the one that's all over the interwear? Yes, yes, yeah. So in a way. In a way, the production of this solves some of those problems doesn't it? Does it? Well, you have Silurians who can indicate that they're speaking by actually just speaking. Um, you have people's eyes and and mouths and things like that. So you get an actor's performance. Remember, when Pertwee talks about the draconians, one of the reasons that he likes them is that they're an acting performance rather than a monster performance. And so you get silurians with names, you do get silurians with different opinions. And rather than just being 3 people in a room, you get this sort of big silurian settlement that looks pretty amazing. Next episode. Wow. We're getting ahead of us. we are. Well, that might be a good time to talk about the new Silurian design because we weren't meant to see it this episode. Oh, okay. In Chibnall's original outline. The sort of Silurian face reveal was the cliffhanger. It was the traditional monster reveal and dinosaurs. We're going to be chasing them around the village, um, in the in the bubble. That would have been great. But pretty much millennium FX and Milk came back to Stephen Moffatt and said, right, you can have the prosthetics or you can have the CG dinosaurs, which is it? And they're like, well, we have to have the Solurians, and that's where the character of a layer came from. It's like, okay, well, not only, right, we'll introduce the Silurian halfway through episode one, but they can now be taken hostage and so we mirror the situation under the surface above the surface. Oh, but how much budget do we have for actors? Right. So Lurian's now a clone race? Very clear budgetary move, isn't it, to have? We'll see that next week, of course. But they do they do throw a red herring in the fact that they have the mask over their faces, which makes them look a bit more like like the original rubber monsters. And I remember being bitterly disappointed at the face of you going, oh, well, they're just another Star Trek Babylon 5 sort of creature, as opposed to rubber men in suits, you know, at the time I was really not happy about it. But now actually it's the best decision they made. I think, yeah, I think you lose something because, because I think that the genius of the original story was to have us treat rubber monsters as people. Whereas here we're encouraged to take the incredible step of treating people as people. And so you kind of lose that. And, you know, when you call them Star Trek monsters, Todd, of course, they're the Voth from distant origin in Voyager, aren't they? Yes, who return heavily ripped off the Silurians to the point of basically saying to Chikotay, no, you can't have evolved on this planet. We evolved on this planet. What are you talking about? I have to say, I'm with you there, Todd. I was quite disappointed in 2010 when, you know, there's not even the 3rd eye. Yes, there's no 3rd. The reasoning behind that as well is so weird. It was actually Stephen Moffatt, who said no 3rd eye, because that's Davros's thing now, and like our younger viewers who saw Davros 2 years ago might associate that, which I think is rather an odd decision. I do think allowing the actor's performance to get through the mask is the right decision and looking back on it now. Also, I think as good as those original Silurian heads are, you put that on telly in 2010. And, you know, try and treat it seriously and do that message of everyone in their story as a person who, you know, has a right to a home and liberty and to live free of war. And people are just gonna laugh at that because it's like human face and weird rubber thing. That being said, in recent years, people have been, um Photoshopping an original Solurian head onto Madame Vastra, and it looks, it looks hilarious, but also it suits what that character will become getting way ahead of ourselves. I don't think they're fully successful, I have to say. I think, like the Santarians. They only work with Vastra and Strax for me, but I think that's more of it in the next episode, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I mean, so we've gotten, um, Neva McIntosh, don't we? Yeah, so Niamh McIntosh is a layer, and we've also got Malocare the scientist. That's such a chibnal space name, isn't it? Well, it's based on Malcolm Hulk. Oh, and Restack. is, and this is a bit more of a stretch is based on Terence Dix. Okay. So it, they are chip no space names, but they're also bidmead space names. Yeah, yeah. That's probably fair enough. And L Dane is based on nothing at all. He should have been called Larry Betts, obviously. So, of course, we don't start with the Silurians, because it's a Doctor Who story, and we have to sort of faff about for a bit and introduce everyone. And I think we do that at quite a leisurely pace in this story. It kind of like the last big non-season finale 2 parter, isn't it? I'm not counting series 9, I guess. Um, But everything is is a little bit sort of stately. But in fact, that's actually not such a bad thing, is it? I, maybe, I don't, I, I, I think stately is a nice way of saying stodgy, I think. Uh, and I do actually find the the pacing of this story to be, to be quite slow for modern Doctor Who. Um, I think Chib Noel kind of only really has enough plot, such as it is for maybe an episode and a half or a 75 minute long episode and he has to stretch it out every 2 full ones. So everything just kind of takes a bit longer. There's the entire thing where you spend, you know, 5 minutes building this electronic perimeter only to have it completely destroyed as soon as a cellar range arrived, so it's just, oh, so that script time was just wasted. Okay. That's that's that's great. And I mean, that feels a very classic series where you spend half of episode 2 doing something that's not going to work so you can get a cliffhanger. Uh, yeah, I, I, I, I do, it's very chibnally feeling to me, the introduction of little Elliot, the dyslexic boy and his poor mom and then just all very like, oh, look, I'm trying to do like RTD ish stuff and introduce a family and these relationships, but he just doesn't do it as well. And it feels strangely out of place in the Moffat era, so it's sort of like, huh, this is a weird fit. I do think, though, he does a reasonable job of kind of delineating the human characters. I've been watching ahead and I did get to the end of another actual sort of 2 parter, which slipped my mind just now, which is the gangers 2 parter, and by the end of the 1st episode, I didn't know how many people were on the base or what any of their names were. And here I do think like Elliot, I think is quite a successful character. I do like that little scene at the beginning. Um, the line where Mo says to Elliot, um, who loves you more than me, and it's like no one, and then, and then Ambrose, who will obviously become a massive problem later in the episode, is actually really rather sweet there as well. And I guess that needs to be established given what her motivations are for the rest of the episode. And so I don't think that that's badly done. And I certainly think that Mira Ciel's character, um, who is just there briefly in that sort of pre-credits teaser is really something. Yeah, I mean, I love Miraciel in every, everything I see her in but yeah, her, her as, as Nazarene, you know, continuing the new series thing of, um, women scientists that you want to jump in the Tartars at some point, 0 my god, she does, you know, and I'm like Ida Scott, she's fully conscious and is just lovely in the Tartars towards the end of this episode. But yeah, I love the family as well. And the Moffat era will not always successfully handle child characters, but I think Elliot is absolutely delightful. He wasn't terribly experienced. The production team saw him being interviewed as himself, I think for a news item about wanting to be an actor. And so invited him to audition for the part. And there's there's interview footage of him just saying, I love Doctor Who, and I'm having a fantastic tie, but what have you which is just lovely. and much like another character Chris Chipnall will write later. His dyslexia is written, I think, with sort of great sympathy, and just it also gives Matt Smith's doctor the chance to say that wonderful line when Elliot says, oh, I can draw your map, but I can't do the words and the doctor just leans down and says, well, I can't make a very good meringue, but, you know, this is your job that's what I want you to do. And those 2 are just so lovely together. Matt Smith and Samuel Davies. Yeah, I agree. I think that's a beautiful moment. Ambrose, I'd grow to dislike intensely, like, I just really hate that character so much, but more about that next week. Nazarene is fantastic. She really does stand out as something in this era, you know, as somebody who is just suddenly there, but she has this instant connection with the doctor and believes in him right from the get go. I found it really interesting watching it just to see how sympathetic she is towards him and is and open-minded to what is going on. And I really enjoyed her entire performance in this entire 2 part. Mo, of course, gets taken down underneath right at the beginning. I really have a problem with that scene because he's putting his hands down 1st to get sucked down and then it cuts away and comes back and then he's being dragged in by the legs. Yes, and it just irritates me so much. It's the 1st problem I have with this episode. Yeah, yeah. There is an editing problem in that scene. There's 15 minutes of cut footage from this episode. Really? Yeah. Yeah, I do wonder because I don't think Ashley Way returns to the show after this, and I do wonder if that's why, because part of the director's job. in the planning stage is to is to inform the production team if the script is too long. Um, there was stuff cut from M2 as well. But yeah, there's 15 minutes cut from F1, including where the funding is coming from from the drill. I'm sorry to have lost that. Um, but it's all, but also that's why they are pushing. They are, but that's why they're pushing so hard and why, it's part of the reason that they don't discover what's down there. They haven't actually done the proper scans because they're pushing, which harks back to 42, where they don't scan the sun before they go scooping because they're on a, they're on a tight schedule. So, you know, it, I, I think Chibnell has a thing of scientists having to be irresponsible because of the pressure they're under. And yeah, so, you know, it's not a big problem to have lost it. But it does mean we just get a bit of ADR where the doctor says you were only seeing what you wanted to see when you scanned this. Yeah. I don't have a problem with that. It's all the little lines about, you know, we have to bus people in from the village and and so they're going to be isolated, so it's going to be a small cast. I'm all okay with that. I actually really like all of that stuff. Did we know that the Salarians are coming back? I really don't know, but I think we might have, yeah. But I was seeing that, yes, babe, we've got a big drill and we're going down and 0 my goodness, it's probably the Silurians and, and then, you know, we're going to be cut off from everybody else. Chris sets things up very obviously. Yeah. And that's another thing which irritates me is at the beginning of the episode when Amy and Rory come out of the TARS and they see themselves waving from the future, like they're there from the future, sort of like, well, this has never happened before. And so I kind of go, well, is this going to come into play? Like, it's like, it's almost like he wants it at the end. So we're going to put it at the beginning. And then Rory has to put the engagement ring back in the Tartar. Well, I don't know, it's just, it just irritates, like it's not irritating at the time, but it just big red flags as this is where I want to be at the end, so I'm going to join the dots to get to that point. I think with that material in particular. It's very hard to disentangle what Moffatt might have been responsible for, given that the story doesn't look like it's written in any way to lead up to what happens at the end of next week. And so I don't know. Do you think that might be something Stevens put in, possibly possibly. I um, I do, I do commend um, future Amy and Rory from the year 2020. They are obviously champions of social distancing. They are a long way away. Like you, Todd, I really like the small cast, and it makes episode one a base under siege story. But without the intransigent base commander. You know, we do have people in heightened emotional states for understandable reasons, like their loved ones have gone missing but none of them outright, say to the doctor, oh, no, you can't do that, install the plot for 10 minutes. They just go, okay, yeah, weird stuff is happening. You're here and you know about the weird stuff. All right, what do we do? And it's only when, you know, Elliot gets taken, that they start to question him. But even then when he turns around and says, right, this is what I'm going to do now and this is what you're going to do. They all kind of grudgingly go, well, you know, we don't have much other option. And I like that. I like that even though they're all under duress. They're not idiot. Yeah, yeah, I mean. There is a difficulty with this episode, isn't it, in that we're discussing an episode that is largely just set up. And it does that. I think it does that reasonably effectively. Um, but, but I'm just not sort of super uh, sold on how interesting it is. I mean, the thing that we normally say about this 2 parter is that episode one is sort of quite good and episode 2 it all sort of goes to hell. Episode one is is, though, a bit thin, I think. You know, like I just don't think there's all that much to it. But I like that. I'm inclined to agree with Nathan about the thinness. In and of itself, the sort of, uh, the small town, you know, or the idea of there's only these few people and Elliot and Ambrose and the grave feeding people like, oh, all the sort of character stuff done in part one is fine. Um, I think it's very difficult, though, to watch it and sort of disconnect your knowledge of that most of it goes to waste or is not developed interestingly or whatever in in the 2nd part that he does this sort of establishment of who Elliot is, and then Elliot is essentially not really a character in part two. He does this work to make Ambrose vaguely sympathetic, but also establishing from the beginning that she's someone who reaches for a gun at a moment's notice, which is maybe not great. Um, and Tony is just sort of nice old guy, which I suppose everyone needs a nice old guy sometimes, but I think the only one who really comes out of the entire 2 part of feeling like a proper character is Nazarene. I think that's probably just because she gets to hang out with the doctor and therefore she gets the most screen time and gets the most interesting stuff to do. Yeah, it's it's thin, it's fine, but it kind of all leads nowhere in the end, I think, or leads to things that are just so outlandish as to be, you almost wish they didn't happen. It's, I don't know. It's it's a really weird contrast between the 2 parts in some ways where this one definitely is sort of like a fun monstery based under CG sort of thing. And then we just get slammed and just something completely different the following week. And I completely agree with you, and that's why I love this episode and I loved it at the time. I love seeing Rory without Amy because he's just been an adjunct to her over the last 2 episodes. And here he gets to stand in his own 2 feet and work with the doctor and meet these people by himself. And I really love Arthur and I love that. I like the fact that Karen's a bit sidelined for the episode. Um, But, you know, she's still there, obviously, at the beginning and I just like the way in which halfway through, suddenly we've got the whole dome and everything goes dark, and that's something that I really enjoy, and I love the music that goes with it, and all the buildup. And I mean, you know that obviously when Amy gets taken, she's going to be okay, but honestly, that scene where she's in the perspects coffin thing always gets to me, it's so claustrophobic. It really is, actually. Just noticing how close that glass is to her face. Yes. You know, it would actually have been sort of quite uncomfortable for the actor. And I think she does a really great job there. It is per to his greatest hits. It's a love letter to the Pertwi era or is it just sort of mining the Pertwi era for sort of set pieces that have worked in the past? I think it is using some of the set pieces, but It's as if, okay if we had come up with these ideas in 2010, what would they look like? Yeah. And one particular thing I love about the direction in those sequences is there's a bit where Rory is setting up a camera. So you got Rory in the foreground up a ladder, you got docked behind him and they look up and it's getting dark and when you come back to them, it's night. They're in exactly the same positions, the camera is in the same position, and my god, that would have taken, you know, that would have taken effort to set up. It's not quite as effective the other way around with the meals on wheels, man, but capturing a Silurian in a meals on wheels van. is pretty good. That is that is brilliant, especially because, you know, Ambrose really is at the point where she's going to pick up a weapon and hit the 1st thing that moves. whether that's the doctor or not. So that is, it is a clever solution that is operating on reptiles don't like cold, but it is not a cruel solution. Yeah. You know, it's not a pit full of spears kind of thing or yeah. I, can I just say that Matt is really amazing in that scene, that um, that scene where he confronts Ambrose and tells her that she doesn't need the weapons and that's not how we do things. Um, Matt has a way of being frightening by toning it down. But here he tones it down even further than that. He's not frightening. He's kind of friendly in a sort of odd way, as if he's trying to jolly her along, but it's not. It's not warm, you know, like he's, he just pitches it absolutely perfectly, I think. Yeah, he just says very offhandedly. I'm asking nicely. Yeah, yeah, but he is. Yeah, he is asking nicely, but he is asking nicely in the most threatening way possible. I think Matt Smith. It has been a number of years since I have watched a Matt Smith episode that wasn't Day of the Doctor, I think, probably, because I tend to rewatch that sometimes. But especially just watching a straight up season 5 story his 1st season. He's incredibly good in this role. I like, I've always been like, oh, the 11th doctor is one of my favourites. I adore him. Watching this. I'm like, Jesus Christ, we did know how lucky we were at the time to have this guy. He's amazing. That scene is phenomenal where he's talking with Ambrose and as you say, he does the sort of polite threatening. His scene with Elliot, as we mentioned, is great. Um, him talking with Amy and Rory are really great. Like everything he's doing is fantastic. Um, at his scene where he comes in uh, with the chair to interrogate Aleia. is just like a sort of a masterclass in how to go from friendly to threatening all at the same time and sitting there in a folding chair, even his physicality in that scene where he sort of lithely sort of lifting the chair around. And then he quotes McCoy in a series, in an episode full of Pertwi homages, he quotes McCoy and says, there will be no battle here today. And he sort of just strides out, confident as ever, that as the doctor, he's going to fix things, and he does, but at a cost, but it is, it's a phenomenal performance from him. It was the thing I was by far most uh, most astounded by in most uh, most uh, such a pleasure to revisit when we watched this. My 2 things are, the moment where he says that he's the last of his species, um, without being sort of tenancy and overwrought is super refreshing, and then the scene where everyone turns to look at him, because he's let Elliot go off on his own, and he's sort of embarrassed and mortified and completely silent, and, and I just think that's extraordary. He's so good. I've just enjoyed his performance all this season and uh, you know when Nasreen claps him after his that scene. I mean, she is us and that's why I love her so much, but it's just it's so earned from that character. It's so earned. he nobody dies today. He really is just phenomenal in this. Yeah. Can I say I hate that speech? And I think the reason I hate that speech is that we know what's going to happen. It's so clearly the doctor setting up the, now, everyone. Just make sure you don't kill the lizard lady. And you just kind of think, it would have been so easy not to kill the lizard lady, but like it's definitely a thing that's going to happen. And also, you know what? I wasn't considering it, but now... now that you put it into my mind. Yeah, and then codiles really tasty. It is. And then she even takes it on board herself and says, I know which one review is going to kill me. How generous. Now, the thing is, I have to say with that, and I've spoken about this on our waters of Mars Thick. I do kind of enjoy stories sometimes where you as the viewer inevitably know that the thing that the characters say must not happen is gonna happen. And I think, I think a lot of, a lot of Doctor Who writers have have used that. And, you know, I reckon in a way, Russell uses it in turn left because we as the viewer know the events of the Doctor Who universe and how they're going to unfold. And, um, sort of when Donna and Will say things like, oh, you know things can't get much worse and the cars start spewing out toxic gas or what have you. Yeah, no, I just think I think it sort of sets up this moral dilemma for the characters in a way that just a little bit too on the nose. Yeah, and I actually, I'm inclined to agree with Nathan again. Uh, this is why Nathan and uh, like having me on. I agree with that. about that speech. I think Nazarene's clapping is entirely earned and perfectly justified. I do think, though, it feels too much like a speech. It feels too much like a pep talk from the coach, which means it feels performative in a way that sort of pushes me out a bit. I also do think it's one of those situations where, okay, doctor is this a test for the humans in this room? Because if you wanted Alaya to be safe, you could lock her in the TARDIS where no one could get at her and she would be fine. Like, you're locking her in this room in the church because you want her to be available to be killed conveniently. It's almost like the doctor is testing to see whether humanity is up to the job, and of course, humanity fails because it's a chymnal script. So I, yeah, that moment and the entire thing with Ambrose, which we'll get into next episode. It really bothers me. Uh, but, but I suppose it's, Season 5 is there's a lot of like let's give the doctor a big speech moment. And I guess this is his chance to have one in this episode. Look, as obvious as some of these little signposts are of where things are going to go, I actually, I actually really enjoy it, you know, for that fact, it does hearken back to classic Doctor Who, I think, in so many aspects in this episode. And I know that it's all set up, and I know that it's all going to fall apart in part 2 as inevitably, in virtually quite a few classic and knew whose stories it does. But I just, I just really love the whole setup, the music, what they do generally. I mean, it is quite funny that, you know, a layer can run really fast and capture small boys and everything, but the moment she's captured, then she sort of loses all of her superpowers, like in other episodes where people are sort of have that sort of ability. And I like the fact too, that they try and do things with the Silurians, like even the tongue poisoning thing, which, you know is a bit of a side point for Tony, but I think some of that must have been cut from the episode because it's sort of there and then it's not a bit and... Yeah, they give Matt a line saying it takes 24 hours to refill the venom sack. Which is why, which is why a layer is not a threat. But the, um, the tongue was, After Chipnall was told he wasn't allowed to have the 3rd eye, he's like, well, you know, in, in that case, they're just walking lizards. We need to give them something lizard like that gives them an edge over the humans and he came up with a chameleon-esque tongue that delivers a poison. But I mean, Tony Mac takes the Barbara Rice approach to being poisoned, which is just not to mention it. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was, I was watching F1 going, hold on, why doesn't the doctor just give him something for the hardest medical care? That's because he does, and I realised, oh, he never actually tells anyone. But doesn't the doctor also see it happen? is a bit of a problem there. But yeah, maybe he's like, oh, you know, if there was, if there was something green spreading under his skin, Tell me. I'm sure he'd bring it up. It does rely heavily on the idiot plot at moment. Yeah, um, where uh, Rory doesn't say, no, I'm not a policeman. This is just a bucks. It's, you know, he makes up some lie about like, oh, no, it's a it's a toy. Sorry, not actually the police. Tony doesn't say anything about the venom tunk. Like, people just aren't saying things that would actually expedite the plot because Gibnal needs the plot about a certain way. And so people are just sort of not saying stuff. And because it's a two-parter. And because he couldn't think of a more elegant way to handle these things. So one thing I really dislike about this is while Amy's being dragged underground. Um, there, you know, there's some quite good sort of very um stabbing strings, heavy music from Murray. But as the scene drags on. And, you know, she's very slowly being dragged onto the ground. It segues into the piano section from AB's theme. And then just the fact that you're left with Karen, just Karen Gillan's face with no hair or body or anything slowly sinking into the dust. It's it becomes hilarious. And it really shouldn't be a hilarious moment, but because you've got ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding ding, I'm like, for God's sake, really? I think just sort of modern production values and having a budget and things for the 1st time means that we can do things that we did in the pertu era in a really different way. And one of the things that's really striking is how great the big mining thing looks. You know, what the drill was like in Inferno and we all love Inferno to some degree, um, You know, it's a shiny room with a big sort of perspex thing in the middle of it. And so having this drill, which is actually largely a fairly cheap kind of graphic on a computer screen most of the time. But like the actual building and the computer screens and the giant tower and all of that looks great, we can now do the energy barrier from the demons with sort of modern special effects and that looks really good. The energy barrier is fantastic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I'm sort of totally up for that. And going back and seeing what these things look like now in 2010. What do you think of the blue green grass? Yeah, yeah, someone's worked very hard on that. I actually wonder if that's all done in grading. No, I think they're, I think they're props. I think some guys are, yeah, no, it's definitely thing. Because in Stargate, whenever they went to another planet, which was actually just the outer wilds of Vancouver, they would just digitally recolour the plants. Yeah, well that's how Battlestar Galactica worked. Yeah. I love it at the end, when nursery's in the TARDIS, and they get dragged down. Does that mean the Tartar just goes down like one of those little vent things, like that's, yeah, yeah. Well, I think we see on the screen the sort of earth moving sort of rapidly outside. You see anybody else around when that happens? doesn't land on anyone, which is kind of fortunate, I guess. Yes. But I love the fact that they go down and then they're exploring and I had all this anticipation of what they were going to find because I just thought it'd be like, you know, by Silurians there'd be a little lab and they'd have to go past some sort of roaring monster. A kazoo. But then, when they actually, that reveal at the end when she calls a doctor to come and look, I was completely blown away. I did not expect to see an entire civilisation. It just threw me for 6 at the time thinking, 0 my goodness, where is this going to go? This entire city civilisation is here. I swore. I went, oh, yes. Sugar nuts. I think it looks amazing. I do think it looks really something and it's sort of, you know stylishly done and the plants, all the tropical plants and stuff. There's a real kind of sweaty humidity to the kind of look of it and the way that it's lit and stuff like that. And I'm a big fan. I guess we're talking about the cliffhanger. I'm a big fan of the cliffhanger, which is not, we're in peril, but oh goodness me, this is a different situation than what we thought it was. Um, or, uh, he's an interesting new piece of information or or what on earth is going to happen next. I think that's a much more interesting approach to the cliffhanger. Yeah, I actually quite like that element of the cliffhanger although I have always wondered who brought the TARDIS down and why weren't they waiting for it at the bottom of the tunnel. They just sort of get dragged down and their left to wander around on their own for a bit so they can have a cliffhanger. But strange. Um, but it is, yeah, that that reveal of the, like, how, how substantial this, uh, this pod of, if you will, is, is really incredible, and it looks fantastic, especially, uh, because they they don't actually focus on it too long, which is nice. It's sort of a fairly quick shot, which is good. The other cliffhanger is dire, I think, the... Oh, something's coming towards Amy. Oh no, that feels very, yeah. A big needle, isn't it? Yeah, I don't like that at all. And we'll talk about it next week, obviously, but kind of the idea that Amy is now waiting to be kind of cut open while conscious. I actually think that that's too much for Doctor Who and for a companion in particular. And it's all right to do it to Mo, I guess, although Mo's lovely. But, like, I don't like that as a threat. And I just think the kind of horror of that. Like, I think it does horror quite well earlier, this episode, like the, like Elliot, in particular, in the dark, through the graveyard being chased by a layer. That's great. Well, that buildup to that is great. All that horror is great. But I don't, I think the Amy thing is too much. It's interesting that Eric's just said like, you know, with the cliffhanger, when you start to think about various plot points in this episode, it is very typical Chris Chipnell, where it doesn't really hang together when you start to think about things. I was going to give this a 9 out of 10. one of my favourite episodes of the season. Now that we're talking, I think I'm going to downgrade it to eight. That's our job to ruin Doctor Who for Todd. I've got some information about next week's episode that'll ruin this story for Todd further. So look forward to that. ruined next week's episode. It's already ruined. Oh, well, this is this is a deep cut, which will um, which will shake your hive council to its very foundations. Only I may impose order. So vaguely anticipate that, Brendan. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back next week to resolve our differences and find an exciting new way for all of Earth's inhabitants to live together in peace and justice, or not, in cold blood. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FDE podcast on Twitter, and on our website FlightthroughEntirety.com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger and Jody into Tara. Eric, where can people find you online? Sure, I have 2 Doctor Who podcasts. People might be interested to check out. One is called Doctor Who, the Writers Room, where my co-host, Kyle Anderson and I, talk about Doctor Who, from a writing perspective. We did all the classic series a few years ago and have recently started doing the modern 2005 series. So we'll be getting around to this two-parter in a few years. Um, it probably won't improve upon another few years of rewatching. I also have a podcast called The Real McCoy, which I co-host with my friend Adam Clegg, in which we talk about the Sylvester McCoy era of Doctor Who, including the novels and the audience. So, exciting stuff. And you can find me on Twitter at SJC Austinite, that's SJC A-U-S T-E-N-I-T-E. So until next time, remember to install a good UPS in your local church building so that your exciting installing security cameras montage doesn't go completely to waste. Thank you very much for listening and good night. See you soon. Good night. Ta-da. That was Flight through Entirety, starring Tom Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Eric Stadnick. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode, Don't Kill the Lizard Lady, was recorded on the 21st of February 2021 and released on the 2nd of May. Our lawyers here at FDE have asked me to state that the prediction that you're about to hear me making does not in any way constitute an admission of guilt, and that I am not claiming responsibility for any harm that may have befallen any individual referred to hereafter. I can't believe we haven't been recording. That was all gold. Yeah, well, you'll never hear it. Well, I mean, Prince Philip, it's Sue us. Well, yeah, as usual. It's from beyond the ground. From being with, probably. out. No, but this doesn't go out until kind of. What do you mean, no, he died? No, no, he's still alive, but he will be dead by the time. So Richard can finally tell a story about the wetsuit. Yeah, that's right. That's right. So, um, So I think this is sort of, this seems to be working okay although we are sort of quiet and Eric sort of flipping. Is that? Oh, that was good. Well, that was a big laugh. Yeah. And what happens? I try to move away when I laugh. So I think that what happens...