Why Can’t I Wear Trousers?

Welcome back for part 2 of Hartnell's 2nd season. I'm Brendan. I'm Nathan. I'm Richard And we're just going to get straight into it with, ah that charming Latin music for the Romans. Brilliant. I can't hear it either, is obviously my musical ability shot. No, no, no, it's all right, but it's not that good. Which is more than one can say for the Revans, which is all right and back. Well, I think it's terrific. And I went on record last season as saying that I was rather bored with stories that don't have Sontarans in them. um and kind of limits that they all. It can't wait until we get to the end of time. fantastic. No, historicals. Do you know what I mean? The pure historical. which is a big feature of the Hartnell years you know, they basically alternate between historicals and sort of sci-fi adventure. And I did say that while I could see that the Aztecs were sort of fairly worthy that it didn't really grab me. And I really think that this is the right way to do a historical. Now, this is some Dennis Spooner. Dennis Spooner? Yes. Who did... Reign of Terror. Last year. And we all thought that was a bit of a misfire. But you can see what he's attempting to do in Reign of Terror, and what he actually gets right. here, which is not to put the regular cast in a particular time period, but to set them free in a particular kind of story. So, uh, Reign of Terror is the sort of Scarlet Pimpernel thing and it has all of those things that, you know, you're used to from that kind of story. And then the Romans does this with ancient Rome. So, you know, we do have a historical event. We've got the great fire of London, a great fire of London. No. London. London. We do have a historical event, the Great Fire of Rome. But really, the fun of this comes from getting our regulars and setting them loose in an ancient Rome story. And it does have all of the things that you expect an ancient Rome story to have. So it's got gladiators, you know, it's got people rowing galleys you know, it's got Nero. The only thing it doesn't have, and perhaps the big, the big emission, is any mention of eating dormice. But they do eat ants, eggs. They do eat ants. It's okay. So that nearly counts. So the weird Roman food thing. Fortunately, Pfizer Pompeii gets the dormice thing, right? And in scene three, we do have Kaikilius saying that he'd really sort of rather fancy a dormouse. I think that that's that's essentially why this works. And when it's tried again in the future, next season we'll see the gunfighters, which does that, setting the regulars in free in an environment with really, really strong genre tropes, you know? So I think that that's the absolute high points of this approach. But this is, this is certainly, um, This is certainly sort of working along the same lines. So I guess the smugglers does that a bit with pirates and stuff. I haven't seen Highlanders. You're almost up to it. I'm nearly up to it. doing very well. I am doing very well. But so I don't know whether that's like that, whether but the idea is less putting them in historical period and having them, you know, need to escape, but more giving them, you know, fun, um interactions with a different kind of story, one that they're not used to. And then I think, also the way that it begins, I think, is really really particularly strong, and that is, they've been in the place for a month. There's that hilarious, the hilarious opening, isn't it? where... Yeah, it's the original cliffhanger. They fall up a cliff. And then Ian's lying there and you kind of think, oh, he's unconscious. And then these grapes come into view and it turns out that they're just lying around a villa and have been for a month and they're having a lovely time and they're sort of relaxing. And in fact, Vicky's a little bit because she thought they were going to have sort of fun adventures and stuff and all they've been doing is sort of hanging around. And I suppose with Vicky, in a way, you know, even though she was a prisoner and pretty much alone in the previous story. She's already had lying around inside and eating all day, you know? Okay, this is a much nicer situation, but for Vicky, it's like well, yeah, I was already in one prison. This is just another kind of prison. Even if I am back in history and with nicer people who didn't kill my father. Yeah, no, I mean, she's, you know, she's bored, but she's also bored not just because of her character, but because she's a young person, do you know what I mean? And so the doctor takes her on an adventure and he's clearly keen to kind of impress her and all of that sort of thing. And this is really where we see them start to work. So you get Barbara and Ian. chasing each other around, doing each other's hair, looking just sort of terribly post-coital at times. You know, they're clearly on together by this stage. And after the doctor and Vicki leave, they are a bit tipsy during that whole. Oh, there's some more peacock breast in the fridge. Oh, the ongoing fridge joke. The thing is, it's a dad joke, but it's actually funny because of the way they play it. Yeah, they're having fun. And because it's Barbara who fools Ian the 1st time around when he's like the scientific rational one. It's like, yeah, it's in the fridge. It is, I mean, I think the whole thing is just sort of terribly terribly good fun. And it does all the things that you expect a Roman story to do. And as Richard said last time, you know, the French Revolution was something that was covered in history, so the kids knew something about that period. And the same with this. You know, people used to learn Latin at school, bizarrely. It's the take on Nero and burning Rome. Am I right to say that's tacitus? where it comes from? It does. It's not actually backed up, Bo, is it Cicero? It's not also, it's not really backed up by any other historical accounts. I was, in fact, this kind of bugger. No, that's not true. Cassius Dion Suetonius and Tacitus all have Nero burning Rome. But Tacitus gives a couple of accounts, I think. And so he's not sort of completely down on that. But there's all sorts of other details. You know, it's a perfume. I know it was something invented because we should be added at this point that my understanding of historians at the time, the names you've just mentioned, Tacitus, Suetonius, anti-imperial anti, the new construct of Rome, where the Caesar, a king. Again, the Senate having lost its powers. any chance they got to copper brick and Augustus and all these noble science was well taken. I think I mean, there is something to that. Suetonius is keen to tell kind of thrilling, outrageous stories. Do you know what I mean? So if they can be scandalous, They will be. But there are other accounts that have Nero either away at the time or Nero involved in the rescue and so on. But, you know, Nero fiddling while Rome burns, you can't not do that. If you're going to do the Great Fire, he's got to be playing. Oh no, for sure. I'm just wondering where this, because this is very much, oh, look you know, how do you want to admit it? is Doctor Who might exactly, if you want to say he lives in an alternate universe, you talked about that book cover, for the French Revolution in an earthly child, which I think, you know, is the primary thing I've taken away from that 1st podcast. The book covers alternate from the broadcast version to the broadcast version. But it's the same with this. Maybe Doctor Who and TARDIS actually flicks about not just through reality as we know it, but into worlds of fiction. It certainly does when it learns in places like the land of fiction coming up in the mind robber. Maybe this is maybe the TARDIS is now existing in a narrative discourse that's purely fantasy. I mean, for example, the real Nero outlawed the killing of fallen gladiators 5 years before this story is set. Do you remember that? No. Yeah, I haven't, Ancient History at Uni, but that's, there are a whole lot of things about footnotes to tacitous and just how that I recall, is just how much was political against the current setup of the Roman Senate with the season. Well, I mean, it just uses, it uses the fun things from, from test citizens with tonis, that you know about Nero. So there's the fabulous official court poisoner Lacosta. Who is actually real in the sense? But not played by a prototype.cotton, a June Brown in this one because she's, I just see her cropping up an outside iron gron's castle lobbing stink bombs over the ball and murder the whole bloody lot of them. That's not her, though. No, but it's almost like... I know that is.com. No, it's very much that same mould of those British actresses. You just don't see anymore because they'll smoke themselves to an early grade in the 1960s. It is some. I mean, she's terrifically funny and she's almost kind of right out of I Claudius, isn't she? Yeah, it's very much a Robert Graves and it meets carry on. Well, Robert Graves, Robert Graves is doing the same thing in I Claudius, which we should mention it's a series from 1976, which has lots and lots of Doctor Who people in it. including the master. Roger Derdander? Derek Jack. Derek Jacoby, who's the star, of course, we own him. He's been in Doctor Who. I think we own him in more ways than that. But, you know, it's all shot in BBC television centre, studio one. Yeah, it has that lovely studio bound feel. Yeah, there's not a frame of location footage anywhere. You know, there's a lot of use of the BBC sound effects records and stuff to create. tweet, tweet. Yeah, yeah, applause and things to create ancient Rome. That's how we used to see Shakespeare. It is really good. If anyone's not seen it, they really should go and buy it immediately except that the DVD releases. You can watch them. It's actually up on YouTube. Is it? Yeah, it's well worth a look and it certainly is full of Brian Blest and Fiona Walker and various other people. Christopher Biggins. Christopher Biggins is Nero, in fact. in it, oddly enough. What else is Christopher Biggins in in Doctor Who? Well, he hasn't done a TV Doctor Who, but he has done a wonderful big finish audio. The one Doctor. where he is impersonating the doctor. And who else, which real doctor could he go up against except for Colin Baker? But for much of the story, Christopher Biggins is actually paired up with Bonnie Langford, which is even more delightful than it sounds. But in terms of the Romans, Christopher Biggins appears on the making of the DVD, because, of course, Derek Francis. Was it Derek Francis? Yeah, Derek Francis, who played Nero in the Romans, is sadly no longer with us. Yeah, before he died. Yeah, while ago. So Christopher Biggins appears on, I think, 2 of the special features. He definitely appears on the one that is about Rome and how the Rome we see in the Romans compares to historical Rome. He may also appear on the making of, giving his perspective on how Nero was played. Because he's television's near him. Because he was... Yeah, exactly. He was television's Nero. And they even show clips of him as Nero, and there are design similarity. Yeah, yeah, they're both sort of big guys. They're both sort of ever so slightly camped. A smear on top of the score. And they both have a childlike... There's a petular aspect. Yes, but also there's a there's an odd kind of it. Yeah, but there's that duality with children as well. There's that innocence and that lightness, but there's also the dark is right at the front and comes straight out there and they can do appalling acts to ants. They say as a theme is this season, isn't it? Well, at least they're eggs. So, um, And I guess, I guess the other thing that I want to say about the story is that it's, it's a comedy and despite all of the peril. There's lots of peril which is just fabulously realised by the insertion of stock footage. You know, there's... Like a lion, some waves. The episode two, Cliffhanger is them being menaced by stock footage of a lion, isn't it? Or am I, did I? Well, several angles. Like different lines from completely different zoos. Yes. Um, But all of that stuff, uh, you know, once we get to the palace and the doctor and Vicky keep narrowly missing. Yeah, Barbara, yeah. Yeah, and in fact, they end the story, not actually realising that they've been there. I think I think Barbara has to tell Vicky in episode one of the Web Planet that we actually went and met Nero. So all of that where one runs in and one runs out and they're all narrowly missing each other. And then you've got, you know, a papaya getting very jealous at Nero and Nero, like, again trying to, uh, um, being rapey towards Barbara. But not in quite... very innocent way. Not in a vasor way. Not in a vasor way. And also it's not the sort of story that that keys of marinace is. No, this is a fate do fast. The whole year, the French fasting of people just missing each other coming out of doors and chasing each other around rooms which we carry on, God all of that from. That's right. And maybe, you know, like I have certainly read people criticising the, I think probably even Sander for criticises the sort of rapiness of that aspect of the plot, but it isn't, and it's, it it's not really pitched that way, I think. And so I think it really genuinely works as sort of hilariously funny. And there is that line that we quoted before where the doctor does the emperor's new clothes thing and he's playing the liar too subtly for everyone to hear and and Nero's response is just priceless. You know, it's it's a very funny story. I think it works terrifically well, and it would have to be my absolute favourite historical or possibly the only one that I actually like. Getting back to something you say, because I think it is an important point to raise, in terms of watching the story now, um the treatment of Barbara by Nero, and as you sort of describe it the rapiness of it, and how that compares to Vesor, and I think the important thing to consider he is. Barbara constantly bests Nero and protects herself. And the situation never becomes physically violent. There is certainly the inherent and implied violence, but Barbara uses her knowledge and intellect in order to get out of the situation. Um, Now, of course, you know, it's still a problematic way to treat female character. But I think also at the time, that is what a Roman emperor would have been like. Exactly, and it's treated with great lightness and deathness. I think that's it. It would have been terrifying had it really happened, but this is great comedic work here. Yeah, I don't want to accuse keys of mariners as being realist of being realist in any way. Do you know what I mean? It's ridiculous, but there is a kind of level of genuine threat and peril that isn't really present here where, like, we're being assailed by stock tropes of a sort of Roman story. Do you know what I mean? It's not, there just isn't that level of threat. So it is sort of problematic, but it doesn't it doesn't distress me unduly. And then they're all sort of just back home and, you know, back to the villa and off again onto new adventures. I think it's just lovely. I think it works really fast. My favourite moment in this, going back to what you're just saying is when Derek Francis saying, Jackie Healer, in close up, and he just says leans leers towards her, sort of oleaginous cloud, and just says, close your eyes. I've got a surprise for you. And Barbara's reaction is pure carry on. raise the what? raise the eyebrows and it's a ring deer. Oh, well, of which later? Well, interestingly, Carry on Cleo came out in 1964. It did. And there's quite a bit of that in this too. Yeah. Infamously. Oh, and I think something we haven't mentioned yet for the Romans that cannot go unremarked. Beginning of, I think, episode two. Billy's planning on how to do a recital, turns around. There's Barry Jackson with a sword and Billy just says, right, at a taxi. Throws a curtain over him, throws a chair at him. Just keeps on fighting him. Uh, and it's, it's a side we haven't, we have seen Billy getting a bit more physical in this season, like in um, in Darlic Invasion of Earth. He whacks one of the roamen with a stick. And in the rescue, he does brawl with Coquillion. I'm using the definition brawl there of using whatever weapons you have to hand. But this is the 1st time where he seems to go, aha, fisticuffs. I'll show you, you filthy bounder. Well, he does actually say how much he enjoys it or, doesn't he? Yeah, he says, I forget, you know, how much I... And well, I think he starts with, like, he just turns around and sees the guy there, sees the sources, ah, it's a fight you want, do you? Like, he doesn't he doesn't try to sort of go, oh, now, my dear chap, how about we, da, da, da. As even John Pertwee would try and talk to someone before fighting them. But Billy's just like, oh, that'd be so bad. It's safe to say he's well tasty in a fight in this scene. This is the doctor that Tom's doctor refers to and he said, oh, you know, I was taught with and by Cleopatra's 1st warrior, you know this was definitely Billy who was up for all of that. Didn't he train the mountain mauler of Montana? That's the one. It was Burt Reynolds. In a best, in a best. In a canoe. On a float, yes, on a raft. Did all his own stunts. Just like Billy. Well. And of course, at the end of that soon, Vicky comes in chasing the bloke with a vase and throws him out a window. That's good. That's another nice thing is that the stunt extras in this actually carry the story as much as the principal leads. and you've got Barry Jackson and the terrific Peter Diamond as stunt workers who are actually and there's some beautiful going back to Robert Greys, but there's actually some lovely Spartacus was another film that came out, of course, just a couple of years before Douglas, Kirk Douglas, and Tony Curtis, of course, in that marvellous, there's a marvellous scene with Lawrence Olivier and Tony Curtis that's on the cutting room floor, but, you know, the slave and the master having a bath. And you don't quite get to that in this. But there's a real sense, and I shouldn't probably make that make so much light of it because there's a real sense of makeship and camaraderie. And Ian's 1st chance to actually have someone who's an equal in the narrative and bond with that as in friendship. And that's that's that really lovely friendship that he and Delos have. And I just sort of liked him who was stuck around for the next adventure because he would have really given a zombie a going. No, it's it's a wonderful sense of fraternity that we do hear about. Did Rod have anything to say about that? Well, yeah, so Rod's comment on that was Ian gets a very sexy little bear buddy. To be a dime, it is very beautiful. We should mention he's in all 3 original Star Wars movies and he's the one that actually grabs Carrie Fisher by the hair buns and leaps her over the chasm. He's the one doing the leg.. Jedi, yes. No, he also does the Luke leap on the rock. I'm so sorry. That the one you refer to. Yeah, but, you know, no, but he does. He does all the principal stunts. Oh, right. Dave Prowce, he does stuff with him, yeah. But yeah, that, the sort of, um, fast and loyal friendship we see between Ian and Delos is exactly what we hear about in historical context of the Greek and Roman armies at the time. And the sort of concept of and... does bring that out in people. I think that the real reason that that relationship exists though is that it's a standard trope of gladiator films. I just recently watched Pompeii, which is kind of terrible. But, um, is actually really just essentially a gladiator film. And so the idea is that 2 people grow to become friends, then they're put in the arena and they have to fight one another. One of the reasons for D-Loss and and Ian to become friends is so that the stakes are raised in the episode 3 Cliffhanger, which is Dios about to defeat Ian, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Well, from a from a show perspective. It's kind of interesting because it's... It's like the opposite of the relationship between Ian and Exeter in the Aztecs. Because Ian and Exeter in the Aztecs are ordered to train together and never develop a friendship, but have to externally display that, oh, yeah, we're getting along fine, but really they don't. Whereas Ian and Delos. I throw it together by chance, they just happen to be sitting together in the galley and the galleon and become very firm friends, but then have to put on this show of fighting each other. But then come back together again at the end, and D-Lor survives whereas Ixter doesn't. So it's the same kind of thing where both times they've given Ian a rival slash equal. But, sort of inverted it. I don't know if it's deliberate or if it's just the writers, John Lucarotti and Dennis Spooner playing with that trope you mentioned the gladiator friend trope. Anyway, it's marvellous. Yes. Yeah, I don't I don't think anyone is going to dissent on that. And if you do dissent on it, write into us and let us know these two. And we will send the men round to your house with the nice white jacket with the roomy sleeves. Ah? Well, that sound can mean only one thing went off to the, uh, we're off to the soft focus Vaseline lens. I just might as well, my fingers are so slippery. It's all that actually... The board. Not the board, it might as well be. Planet of the Monopra and the Zabi. In which case, I should mention our 2nd baked good of this season. Rod has made us Optra larvae scrolls, which looks suspiciously like strawberry scroll scrolls. So we'll have the we'll have the recipe for those on the website. They look like ammonites. Exactly, they do. Yes. Were they in the web planet? Everything else was. Yes. The web planet. My word. What year is this setting? It has no real place, does it? No, there's no, there's no human context to it. It's the base fanboy thing to say, isn't it? There's no other humanoid characters other than the principal Carlos. Although the animus in the last episode does say that she hopes to take from man his mastery of space. Ah, so we're somewhere often up there. The reason I ask that is because it's an interesting show. It's outside space and time as we know it in any other context in the series, and pretty much of TV generally at the time, or even now, what did Russell T. Davis families famously say, we're not going to Planet Zog to meet the Zogites and get them to zog each other out for episodes. He's not interested if there's no human thing in it. So the Zog monster on the planet Zog is not interesting. And so that would specifically rule this out. Even though he clearly has fond memories of it. There's a bunch of references to it in series one of Doctor Who. Margaret Savine scared of being menaced by the venom grubs. The face of both... from the ISOP galaxy. yeah. So it is something that he clearly thinks fondly off, but it's not something that would ever be attempted now, I think. And yet, was it not for its time or up until the 70s, the biggest rating Doctor Who story? Yes. Yeah, it was incredibly popular. Up 12000000 an upbeach episode. And yet on every other level. audience appreciation, BBC appreciation. We tend to see it now as this faint and faintly curious and kind of sweet thing that, oh, you know, everyone just accepted that as the time. They really didn't. The letters that were coming in and as well as the, um appreciation from the directors of the BBC and the critical people there were saying, this is actually a bit pants. It's just not working. And they all were kind of missing the point. The only people that kind of got it right were, I guess, the new fans, the kids, and not just the kids, the families who were sitting at home saying, we love this because we have no idea what's going on or where we are. And I get as other people have said, this is the point where you can see that the Doctor Who production office were definitely saying, hmm, mushrooms, yes, let's have those. Where did they come from? I don't know, very. But yeah, and what's this? And a tap, patch is, because it's really whacked. It's out there. It's completely Zonk. You can't imagine that it would have been quite so out there if David Whittaker was still script editor. Yeah, and that's a really good point because he was so literary in what he did, which is not to presuppose that this thing doesn't have its own antecedents, and I'd actually have to say, as a science fiction story, it's actually the most traditional that they've so far done. And I'll tell you why, that again, when we talked about graphically, these kinds of stories, very much the cognisant of pulp fiction, there's the one that came to mind as the 1932 Astounding Stories, which is kind of famous, Paul Ernst's raid on the termites, which have images of insects that look almost exactly like the zombie, but spouting venomous web-like stuff over the heroes. It's, you know, insect planets have been around, actually, um, way 1768. There's a story by a writer, you could actually cook science fiction. Gonzales talks about, it's called the man in the moon, where he has insectoid creatures. And then, of course, let's get to the 2 greatest and where this, I think, visually this show, this thing comes from. It was Mele, George Mele, his beautiful 1902 film trip to the moon. Lavage de la Lune, who 1st married the stories of Jules Verne with H.G. Worlds. actually quite different moon voyage things and put them together and he's Selenites, in fact, he's, he's, um, Visually his designs for the moon creatures look almost exactly like cockyon. Monsieur Cockney from the story before. So there's lots of those lovely Millie's moments in this thing. Um, but just the eiriness of it, the weirdness of it, the fact that we're not in a space, the gorgeous score, which is um, the structural, sonor, am I correct? Yeah, those French, the French, um, Early electronic boys that just doing wacko weird, beautiful things. Visually you have no idea where you are. You're on your side. and you've definitely had a bex with your cup of tea when you're watching this. It's really blows me even now watching it. I have no idea what's going on or where I am. I don't think even the narrative does. And then you've got all these extraordinary William Blake effects going on where they start talking about the worship of the light and these amazing lines of the monopteras and the opta, of course mentioning light worship and light as life. It's as if they're all presupposing air card tolls work and, you know, all the stuff that's going on with, with, um, new age, uh writing now. It's no wonder it had 12, 13000000 viewers. Maybe there's something in that. There's some really beautiful progressive images of light as a deity and just a whole different world and a whole different structure. What did you think? Well, I'm picking up what something you said just saying about the ratings. A lot of people sort of say with Doctor Who, that students, you know, people in their late teens, early 20s, only started flocking to Doctor Who in the Douglas Adams, Tom Baker, but Colin Baker says that when he was 18, 19, living in digs with David Troughton he came home one evening as he was coming in the front door. There was Cody morning. This was before David met Katie, I believe, but as he was coming in the front door, the opening titles of an unearthly child were on the table and he sort of leant on the counter at the front door and said the next thing I knew, I was still standing there and the credits were rolling and that was my 1st and I kept watching. And so he was in that... So with what you were saying about um, tapping into all those historical filmmakers and authors and philosophers and the worship of the light. I think the university students were already watching. And I think that's probably the right on to those little mushy stories. Yeah, the mushroom soup is definitely being handed around. Because if, you know, children's parents who are the in many cases would be the serious ones on the audience report saying, oh, well I don't know what's going on. Might have just said to their kids for a few weeks. No, you're not watching that rubbish. Not watching that nappy paddy light worshipping rubbish. But you can because it's within the structure of Doctor Who. Yeah, so that's safe. That's safe. Since then, it's not got that greater reputation, does it? I mean, people kind of laugh at it and say that it's, you know that it's a failed attempt or that it doesn't quite work because you've got sort of ropey 60s. you know, like it's ambitious visually, but it falls short because we can all just tell that they're men in suits. Do you know what I mean? Like there is a... the whole point, isn't it? It's not actually meant. It's about theatre. It's about allowing the suspension of disbelief and being as a viewer, getting along with the what's going on, buying into it being a friend of the narrative and allowing it to do what it's doing. We forget that at this time, TV wasn't all that common. It wasn't certainly on broadcast 24 hours a day. It was only a few hours of the day. People still went to things like local theatres. People had picture books. Kids 1st reference were these kinds of images, statics. The fact this was moving around and in the home was pretty profound and immediate and allowed an involvement that you don't necessarily have now and got so many distractions. I certainly remember it. People speaking about it sort of fairly dismissively, you know when I was when I was younger and I think, I don't know what fan consensus is anymore, but I remember being surprised by how much I enjoyed it. I think it really does work very well and it is because. It is because it is so alien and the juxtaposition of, you know ordinary people like Barbara and Ian with these sort of strange increasingly strange as the Opera appear, monsters. You know, I think is really terrific. And there is something sort of fabulously dreamlike about them flying through the studio and all of that sort of thing. Something fabulously dreamlike about Rosalind De Winter, isn't it? Take a drink, everyone. But she really worked them hard, apparently, all that thing of the gestures and then the body movements. They took it really seriously. Yes, they did. She's in it, isn't she? Is she something? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's one of the... She's the fairly female monoptera, I believe the character is Rosalind De Winter was Vreston, of course. I remember. and she played against Martin Jarvis as Hillary, who was the, was the, the Ian equivalent. There are some amazing lines in there. And some extraordinary moments of really, really poignant sensitive stuff you couldn't do with humanoid characters. There's that, do you remember when they... Stick someone's head in a pool. Exactly. They talk about making mouths to the sky by drilling holes, but of course, that acid can pour through the walls. Hemini dies, plugging the lava flow, and her body is left as a carcass. They were going to actually leave it there. No, they do. There's a shot. It's anemone. There's a shot of her. like everyone else walks off and then we just go her with her head stuck in the acid. extraordinary. The only thing that brings it down is Hetra jumping up and down in that moment and saying something that sounds exactly like, uh, uh twat rag. Really does. Does that like that? There are some, there is, yeah, look, there's some really deep, you know, you'll, again, we mentioned before with his, um, promulgation of the animus, you know, the, the animus is the male, uh, shadow of every woman, just as the animal is our female um, self as men in the, in this world and um, it's often our shadow self or our negative that's also polar opposite. It's interesting that the animals, Annie Moose, as she's known. Monoptera, anyway, is has an amazing voice. It's Fleming, is her name, is it? And a female book. Yes, and yet she's known as the animus, which is the male, the male archetype. And of course she's called a bladder, isn't she, in there? Space Bladder in wherever it's referred to. Is that in about time? Yeah, no, it's in the notes. It's referred to in the 80s, which doesn't really help. But yeah, it's a carsonate. So this is, again, I guess we're coming back to the same ideas that they were talking about in Planet of Giants, that this is the cancer taking over the world. And and wasn't this around the time that, um, Uh, the guy hypothesis started being called? I thought. The planet Bortis itself may not be an organism, but an organism has invaded it, but is seen as a cancer on it and disrupts the natural order to the point that water turns to acid. Well, I think you could, you know, like it's probably a standard thing. You don't need the guy hypothesis to draw an analogue between the world and an organism. Do you know what I mean? Because it's, you know, there's all these feedback loops and and things like that. And so it's a fairly standard metaphor. And so I think that's... I'm just wondering how popular the guy hypothesis was at the time. Because, of course, we're approaching the mid 60s in counterculture and flower power and what have you, which doesn't reach Doctor Who for another few years yet, really. There's some shades of it in the following year with Dodo and Ben Polly all being part of that culture towards the end of season 3 in Club Inferno. It's meant to be about communism. Bill Strutton is an Australian writer who did this. You know, he got this, he said, from putting when he was a little boy, in Adelaide, putting his finger in an old oil can, when he saw 2 bullants fighting, it was really badly bitten, that was, and memory that he had, he said, for the rest of his life. There's a lot of other things in this. But yeah, he said it's so trope about communism and that the zabi represent the workers, but I don't really see how that works because they don't have any consciousness themselves. They're not downtrodden inhabitants at all, are they? And once they're freed, they just go back to being cattle. They dance. They do that. They do have a dance. They smash into the camera. they, you know. Maybe he's sort of trying to say that with like the workforce or the populace. Any philosophy, the workforce that the populace have by themselves is not inherently good or evil. It is how a controlling force. Oh, I like that. uses that. And the thing is, when the monotra are talking about what their life was before, you're still kind of left with the sense that okay, that's a bit problematic that, okay, now the zombie have a degree of autonomy but are being used for evil, but if they're not being used for evil, they have no autonomy, if they're not capable of evil, they have no autonomy. But in that last scene, we don't see the Monopra, Using or taking advantage of the zombie, we actually see them guiding the zombie to the water and looking after them. So there's the sense that maybe something will change because I kind, when I hear the Menoptera say that, oh, the zabi were our cattle and they were mindless beasts, there's this subtext of maybe if we didn't treat them like cattle. Maybe if they weren't just dumb animals. Wasn't this broadcast at the time that or just it was this year in 65 that Gambia was given independence by Britain. Yes, of course. So you've got, I think, political stuff with it. Yeah, fire dissolving. I don't like the idea of trying to find a political thing here. I mean, it resonates. Yeah, I know, but I think he's, I mean, you know, red conning movie. I think he probably is. I mean, the whole, I think that the point is that this is so strange and otherworldly. And while it does have things that resonate like your cancer analogy, which is sort of kind of explicitly there in the dialogue it's just about being terribly strange and confronting the viewers. Yeah, yeah. I'm someone who's very much deeping in that a work cannot be written in a political vacuum. Whether you want it to or not, politics in the world around you is going to influence what you're writing. Well, I think I think that that's, I think that that's true, but this is one where you can see why there would be a motive to claim some political relevance for it, given that it looks just like a whole lot of wacky people leaping about in ad costumes. Do you know what I mean? It's not just that costumes. It's a very serious work of political polemic. But in fact, do you know what I mean? I think it is... I don't think I certainly don't think it's serious. I just think a political reading can be argued. Yeah, yeah. No one clearly Strutton's trying to do that, but I think I think he's reaching a bit, to be honest. I reckon you've got a whole PhD in this one story if you just want to look at references. So I actually can't believe that Rod doesn't have anything to say about the web planner. Well, aside from every episode saying it's the Monoptera, again get the bug spray. He did say to me, please tell me they don't come back to this planet. Why would anyone want to go back? And I said, well, big finish did return to the web planet. Did they? It's great. Yeah, it's pretty good With Peter Davidson and Sarah Sutton. So I said the 5th doctor comes back to which Rod's reply was, lucky him. I hope he brings the Daleks. That's so mean. What with the point of an audio of the web Planet B, that just seems crazy. Well, you do get the car alarms, Arby's going on. You can tell when the zombie are there. And it has the recently and sadly departed Sam Kelly as the lead monotra. So I don't think we can question it because he's just brilliant. It's really nicely done. I actually like it. Well, it's the best of what this show should be. And because it's audio. you've got those beautiful pictures Yeah exactly. So yeah, without without the visual limitations of television. They still explore what Monopra culture is like, because one of the Monopra characters has no wings, so they discuss what it's like to be a Monopra with no wings. I always thought that was terribly sad in the show. Yeah, when wings get... That guy then has no wings. But I think the point is that it's, you know, crazy looking things on TV. Do you know what I mean? Like it is, yeah, I don't know. I don't think I would want it in my imagination. One final web planet link is obviously there's a fair bit of Australian involvement in the web planet. Bill Strutton, the writer of Australian. Rosalind De Winter, insect choreographer and Vreston was Australian. And another Australian connection. Now, I'm not sure if she is Australian, but she certainly came to live in Australia. Barbara Joss, who plays Nemini, the Opera, who gives up her life to save everyone from the acid. Did move to Australia after this. She did Skippy. She did Skippy? Skippy? She did. which is currently being shown at 6.30 AM on Gem. I think it might be maybe catcher soon, yeah. She became a businesswoman here in Australia. And in 2005, she actually came along to who, who, to a who mentioned, which I was hosting. And she was a very, very interesting woman. She had in previous years to that, had breast cancer and had to have a masectomy of breast removed. And so as well as talking about her time on the show, she had written a book about her experiences. So we talked about that for the audience. And um, What was really nice about that was 1st of all, I have since had familiar familial experience of cancer, but I hadn't had it at that time. And I think that helped me when that did happen because I had spoken to her about her experience with cancer. But what was wonderful, this was in late 2005, so it was just after the 1st season, the new series. And as such, we had a lot more women coming to who mentioned because of the impact of the character of rogues. And Barbara Joss herself was sort of tentative that comes to the convention because she's like, you know, I'd like to talk about my book, but I can't imagine any Doctor Who founds to be interested in that. I had to say to her, well, no, no, we love to hear about what people have done since Doctor Who. And she brought about 30 copies of the book along. And during her autographing session, her book sold out. And there were loads of women in their late teens, 20s, 30s and older, and every woman who came up to speak to her said, I just wanted to thank you for coming here and saying that because it's it's something I fear or it's something in my family and it's so nice to hear someone talk frankly about it. And Barbara was just amazed and touched. And I haven't heard from Barbara in years. I do hope she's still with us because she was such such an open funny, enthusiastic. Yeah, she brought it all home, didn't she? She brought it all. She brought it all home and she was a little bit horrified, I have to say, when we did show her bits of the web planet. She sort of went, oh, God, is that what it looked like? I was terribly nervous because this was the 1st big convention I hosted and she played a trick on me. And what that was, was after we showed her that clip. I turned to her and said, so what can you tell us about filming that scene? Oh, darling, I don't remember anything about it at all. Fair enough. Was it Patrick Trouser? But then I just looked horrified and 5 seconds later, she's like oh, no, you know, Billy used to bring in a chicken and then Jackie and Russ used to bring in a turkey, another turkey, a salad, and it was like this. And she actually went on for half an hour about what the filming was actually like. But just for that split second. like, oh my, this kid, I don't remember that. knows nothing about Doctor Who. And she just had everyone in stitches. So yeah, that's just my my addendum to the web planet discussion. Well, we're moving that to Earth now at breakneck speed into the 12th century to experience the crusade. We've got another big star. We had Derek Francis, who was probably the biggest name in TV that we've had after this point. We've got Julian Bloody Glover. And Jean. Jean, I should just done Shakespeare on Broadway. Just that season before doing this, but Glover was a seriously big name, even back in the day too. It's really nice watching this and thinking, hmm, you know why he just disappears at the end of episode four, Nigel, through episode three? because Scaroff's called him Matt for another one. And you can actually watch it. I did what when we had to do it for this podcast, watch it and go what if it actually is Careth? You know what? It almost works watching it as Scarov. And the whole dissociation with his sister. Where do we want to start? There's so much in this, isn't there? Well, it's different. It's a, it's a, yet another historical where Barbara gets a really strong role to play. And, you know, she does use a little bit of her knowledge of history, but mostly she uses her cultural knowledge. And speaking of culture, let's just say it, say it now. The Arabic characters are played by white guys in blackface. Yeah, but they were, but by Bernard Kay. Okay. This is called Shakespeare. Traditionally, BBC actors, you know, you saw... No, Anthony Hopkins playing Othello in the business. It a bit ripe for the colour then, too. The culture, the Arabic culture, is actually represented with a lot of respect. A lot of respect. And Berner K is such a strong part. Berner K, Roger Avon. I mean, of course, Walter Randall's the villain. But those 2 and the chat playing Bender here, the comedy sort of merchant. each represent a different view of Arabic culture. They represent the aristocracy in the 1st 2 and the worker class in the latter. But the, their culture is never sent up and you get burner K later later on and his daughter as sort of the the middle 2 work class showing you what a family is like there. And they're just such well-rounded characters in a time where you may not expect non-white culture to be so well represented in television. In fact, acting on Richard's advice. I got the David Whittaker novelisation of the Crusade, which is called Doctor Who and the Crusaders, and it was just recently re released, as you mentioned, that was on the Kindle. And it actually starts. It has an opening scene. in the TARDIS, because this sort of famously starts with the TARDIS materialising and the crew coming out of it, I think. He leaves the handbrake off this time. It doesn't make a knife. sound several times this season, yeah. So the scene inside the Tartars has them talking about why they can't interfere with the past. Which is something that I actually think fundamentally completely dams historicals as an idea and that's why they have to go away because they can't really do anything. You know, the rules are the rules are they can't affect the past so that's really not very interesting. All they get to do is sort of escape and then... Every single adventure is the past because it's all relative. where you've just come from. But it is that thing where once the doctor's a heroic figure, he can't really participate interestingly in those sort of stories. But the other conversation is something about right and wrong, and like I read it a little while ago now, so it's a little bit hazy but, but the doctor speculates, what would it be like to be involved in a situation where both opposing sides were in the right? And it's so very clearly, no, no, no, not they just think they're right. That's every conflict. But they are actually both good people, you know. And so, and so there is this thing where, you know, Saladin sends presence to Richard and Joanne. Yes, and there is a sort of mutual respect and that sort of thing. And so the Saracens are not are not villains in this at all. They're like, here is. But, but certainly not, um, Salador, his brother. yeah. And so I think that that is sort of interesting. The story is a little bit harmed by the fact that only 2 episodes exist and the recons are not great. And so I did actually find myself wandering off and wondering when the pteroleptils would arrive. Yeah, sure. But the premise is so strong getting back to what you were saying because that for me really clinches it. I feel it's the strongest script we've had in the show so far, and it's probably the strongest script we have for a while in the series, it's my take on it anyway. Historically, and where Britain was in 1965. It's a really nice take on imperialism and judging exactly where it was, what we were seeing as Britain and what an empire is. We've got to remember the, The stuff that was still going on at the time culturally. There's a really sweet little ladybird book that came out right at the same time, if you remember those things, Peter and Jane learned to read. Richard I or Richard the Lionheart. It had scenes of him crushing the, it came out the same time as, um at the 1st aired, and looking all terribly Errol Flynn in the tablet and with a St. George Cross, and really, hey, whacken into the poorly dressed infidel. And a shot of another illustration, lovely watercolour, of Richard with his huge, strong, glinting sabre held up. Hello, Dr. Freud. And there's Saladin with a very fine scimitar cutting through a little handkerchief that's flittering in the air. It was a symbolism of that, man. That apparently goes back. Um, I'd like to have a look at where this is coming from and what this actually was because. This is probably the most significant thing for, if you go back to this was the 3rd crusade, wasn't it, the one with the Richard, the Richard I. The Crusades kind of started, okay, Crusades kind of started with Pope Urban II, Keith to his mates. In 109, 1095, when he answered a call from the Eastern Roman Emperor, which was Alexia's 1st Comnitness, I think. No, don't ask me. I know, nothing. But anyway, he called to liberate Eastern Christianity and the Holy Sepulchra, the Holy City of Jerusalem. And the pope answered, this is at the Clermont Assembly in 1095. Pope Urban said, um, whoever for devotion alone, not to gain honour or money, goes to Jerusalem to liberate the church of God can substitute this journey for all penance. This is pretty remarkable. This is a get out of jail free card for all eternity. If you go along and fight this holy war, all your taxes, all your tides to a church, everything else, there you go. you completely fine. This went on for, well, historians vary, 5 crusades, 8 crusades some even say 12. It went definitely until 1291. Actually later, and it's still, you know, people say it still influences the world now. This is a major, major thing. By the time we got to, this 3rd crusade, it was, as you did, as which you could describes it, and as you just said, a very elegant dance between 2 opposing forces, Richard did. There's a lovely line when Billy says you will see Jerusalem. He did. He came within 12 miles, I believe it was, twice. Yeah, in January and then in June, July of 1192. This show is actually really accurate. It's a little out with some of its timing, but the whole getting um, offering Joanna's hand, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, did actually happen, but it happened 6 months before this narrative. We know this is November 1191, I think. Yeah, it is. We think is a great writer, great research on all this. It was an interesting meeting of formalised ideas within chivalry and court etiquette, and it becomes like any great story of empires that are meeting, about the subtleties of exchange and the subtleties of language and diplomacy. And we get that reflected in some really great lives. You notice that whenever Julian Glover comes on the scene, suddenly it all goes blank verse and everyone stands up a bit straight and acts proper. And he actually does speak some of his lines up. There is some, like, first. And what the other thing I really like about this story, unless you want to go on more about the historical stuff. Because you don't know. Well, it's just like, I really love you. I really do love this period of history and what, and just how much it's, um, It's influenced later history. But it's that the doctor and the TARDIS crew almost negated by the entire narrative and really almost have nothing to do. They're an accidental aside, and it makes it much more fragile and much more dangerous for everyone involved. It really is just surviving for the 4 episodes. See, I hate that. That's ripping. That's the thing that I really hate about historicals and it's the thing that I hate about the Aztecs as well. It is that they've really got nothing to do and it is a story that's not a Doctor Who story and the whole purpose of them is to get out of the story. Do you know what I mean? So, you know, like it's, like I love Gene Marsh, and I love Julian Glover. And I love blank verse. There are 3 things that I really love about this. And there are there is stuff about the portrayal of the conflict which is sort of fairly interesting. But essentially I just or want them to go out and confront them. What about Billy's ranch with Leicester in front of Richard in the court when you, you know, will you be... It's great. It really posits the doctor as being, I am a man of intellect and learning and I oppose violence. Mind you, wears a skull, because I'll chuck it on the back of your head if you sooner look at me. He's over that now. He was young man. I was young then. I think it's also another example of something we saw in the Romans and the Aztecs, that Barbara is a driving force in the story. I do agree that the doctor and Vicki do very little of plot relevance. There's almost just the plot, really, is there? It's a series of narrative events. sort of the one the conflict the 1st conflict that could turn up for the doctor and Vicky is, oh no, what if what if they discovered that Vicky's a girl? They discover that Vicky's a girl and what do they do? They get her address. But isn't that great? Oh, yeah, Shakespeare, the boys. It's a beaut. It's a beautiful scene. And Joanna kind of goes, well, hold on, you lied to me. And the doctor says, well, you know, she would have been endangered. And she's like, Joanna's like, oh, oh, well, that's all right. And you also sort of get Jake Marsh going, I want to wear trousers. Oh, yeah, yeah. But what I find is the one a really wonderful driving force in the story. Is Barbara's relationship with the Saracens? Both the nobles at court and being very respectful of Saladin and Sarah... Safadin. Saffidin and Saladin. And you think at one moment you think it's about, you know, in the direction of the Arabian Nights when she starts talking about her travels and they kind of go, oh, that's very interesting, but it is a novelisation. There's a lot of stuff, like there's a there's a chapter where she's sort of shared Zardi, you know, and just telling stories about crazy ants and stuff. Over whom the fate of death. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But when Barbara escapes from Elakia at the end of episode 2 and spends episode 3 with Harun and Sadia, the father and daughter, if Barbara hadn't been there, People wouldn't have been searching for it, but she also is told by Harun, you know, if the if the guards discover you kill my daughter. So she is not taken to Ella care. And Barbara Instant goes, no, I'm not going to kill it. You stay here and hide. I will give myself up. And, you know, we've already discussed how the memory of World War II was still large in people's minds. It's Anne Frank. Oh, that element is and that nobility of giving herself up. And but it's also because she gives herself up. that Harun is able to join Ian in rescuing her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the noble sacrifice becomes a triumph. I think, and that's where the historicals work very well. And I do agree with you. The story becomes hamstrung when the characters can't become part of big events and that's the thing with the doctor and Vicky. They actually do try to change the big events and sort of talk Richard round. And so something big happens in, he loses trust in them through no fault of their own, and that's kind of what Whittaker's saying in his introduction of the novel that something else will happen to change the history. But a small life. A life who that isn't a king or a Saracen lord, that can be changed and that you can influence that for the better. And it's not, we're not clubbed over the head with that, but it's just, it's just sort of there and it's, and it's really lovely. And a part I really loved about the novel. many years since I read it. But when Ian goes to rescue Barbara, the sort of romantic subtext we have between Ian and Barbara in the TV series becomes screaming text in the hands of David Whittaker. Yeah, he's very convinced that they're a couple. Yeah, Ian, like you're constantly getting Ian's thought processor if she's dead, I don't know what to do. I can't go on without her. And then when he sees her, like his heart fills with relief. That's how I feel when I see her. Yes. Well, I think, yeah, we're all a little bit in love with Barbara. But... I'm sorry, Nathan. I agree that there is some problem with historicals, but I think this one is perfect because everyone tries to do something and it's a triumph for the individual life over the institution especially the royal institution of the Middle Ages, which was, you know, that they're the only important people. It's like, no, the important people in this story are Harun and Sadia. who are just a father and daughter who have been through horrible hardship, and you could argue that without Barbara there they would have never been noticed, but with Barbara there, they get a chance to kill the person who's been oppressing them and has kidnapped the guy's other daughters and they rescue them. Look, look, I think Elaki is good. I think that Barbara's thing is good, but you have to agree that episode 4 would have been vastly improved if there had been a shriven Zar. Well, I don't know. We're all reasonable people. I feel that this is an historical romance in every sense and there's so much driving. you've just beautifully pointed out that interplay on every level, not least of which is a romance, is that between Saladin and Richard, perhaps this dance that they both perform sending gifts of sweetmeats and snow when they're... Historically, Richard sailed away when he was ill. Um, And left Acre and um, Saladin died 6 months later. I'd like to say a broken heart. But yeah, truly they did. It was almost as if that separation, the greatest conflict and the greatest territory of their lives was this moment and was just as much of a romantic involvement as every other level in both historically and in the narrative. Like the camaraderie of... And the fraternity. Yeah. It's a theme of fraternity in this series, definitely. Fraternity and ants. That's the one, flight through fraternity. Oh, did we mention they were? In fact, there is another skirmish of India. Yes, of course. Oh, I accidentally mentioned that in state down. Yeah. and ants. Is it Tuti Lemka? I believe it's Tuti Lemko doing it, but intro... It's Lemkov. I'm assuming that that OW is... I like it. I just like... He's once a season, isn't he? He's scandalous. He's Michael Sheer. He made Marco Poland. And then when Michael Sheard turns up in season three, we never see Tooty Lemkoff again. Coincidence? I think so. Maybe, don't you think? Maybe he had surgery of some kind. Yes, surgery to his name. But another behind the scenes titbit about that scene of Ian getting staked out in the desert, for the inserts of, for the inserts of his actual arm and the ants on his arm. William Russell was called for a filming day, but said, no, I don't want to do that because that's actual honey. Those are actual ants. don't want to do that. And so it was the production assistant, Victor's Rotellus, who went on to direct episodes of Blake 7. No, the 2nd last episode of Blake's episode, Blake 7, Warlord. He went on to direct that as well as other productions as well. He actually stepped in and it's his arm smothered in honey and ants. And he did say that they didn't buy him, but he quite understands why William Russell didn't want to do it. to a major cast member isn't it? Speaking of major castle members. Do you know who was up for it if Julian Glover was not available? And was almost not going to be available because of his stage commitments, none other than Nicholas Courtney. Yes. Would have played Richard first. So they would have played brother and sister again. Again for the 1st time. I may be wrong on this. Both of your historical knowledge is better than mine. But is it true that there was some talk that Richard and Joanna may have been more than just siblings? No, no, no, no, no. script and Billy outlawed it. It's in Whittaker's script that's definitely... Richard was supposed to be gay. Well, look, we don't actually have much references to that. We have 2 extent ones is that he shared a bed with another gentleman or several other gentlemen. People always say, oh, but everyone did it, though. They actually did. Beds were very rare. Probably normal. A bunch of good friends would get into bed together, just to chat actually. It was very hard to hunt down a fresh bed. No, they really did do it. I could imagine. I seemed very happy to leave Berengaria in the acre or acme or wherever the hell that was. I think it's more to do with, he actually considered, he didn't say exactly these words, but he considered England something of a pit, and he was really glad to get away from it and a lovely son and having a bit of a romp and save his soul. No, he saw this as an expansion of the empire and also that the infidels. What this holy crusade was actually about, this murdering Jews on their way, there was a huge massacre of Jews in York in 1096. So this is almost 100 years before this 3rd crusade. And there was another massacre of Jews on the way for this 3rd one but it was... Christians and stuff incidentally as well. I mean, it's all just terrible, crazy. But it was really just about, let's put our mark put the Christian mark across Europe once and for all. And take it as far east as we can. Can we go into space now? I think we can. Well, we will be going to space for that. Sadly, all we have time for on this episode of Flight Through Entirety, but we will be back next week, your time, and after a lubric, our time. So, gentlemen, would you like to say goodbye? Well, good, good night for me. And good night for the infidels. Infidels everywhere. Sleep well. You have been listening to Flight Your Entirety with Nathan Botley Brandon Jones, and Richard Stone. This episode, why can't I wear trousers, when it's recorded on Sunday, the 6th of July, 2014. The next episode will be released on August the third. You can find us at Flightcherentirety.com, flat your entirety on Facebook and iTunes or FTE podcast on Twitter. We're all right, but we're not all that good. Okay, so Brendan, future, Brendan, you're dropping that bit into episode two. So there you go. Don't say I never give you anything. Oh, I talked to future Nathan as well. You know, like in class, in the middle of conversations with other people, that sort of thing.