Web of Nothing

Hello, dear listener, and welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast Held Together by people just being terribly critical of one another. I'm Brendan. I'm Nathan. I'm Todd. And we're going into a Johnny Burns debut script for the series with the keeper of Tracon. And this one is mine. I put my hand. I absolutely and utterly adore this story. It's my favourite of the season, and I'm always liked it ever since I was a kid. I considered a few other stories, like, I considered 4 to Doomsday which I like, and but it's got a few problems. I considered attack at the Cybern, which I like, but it's got a few problems. And I considered the mysterious punished, which I really like, but it's got a few problems. So I thought I'd go to this one, which I really like. And you know what? It's not the best directed of the season, although I think John Black is really trying, is the director is really trying hard. Um, It's not the best script of the season, um, maybe because the mask has to be shoehorned into it. But I think the performances by the majority of the cast, I think the actual cast, the costuming and the set design really, really sell this as a piece of television. They're spectacular, aren't they? Yeah. And, you know, the costumer, Amy Roberts? The design attorney Burrow was not. He could not get the set design he wanted. So there was this up and coming designer in the BBC department. And it's one of these things I talked about in previous podcasts with the serendipity of this season, things happen quite by accident. And often you get somebody new and enthusiastic, and here, the design of, you know, the keepers in a sanctum and the grove and the, just everything. I just think I just think it just works so beautifully, so, so beautifully. But I guess, I mean, we'll start, you know, right at the beginning where we've got a doctor and a male companion in the TARDIS for the 1st time since, um, what, uh, wheel in space, would it be? Yes, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So that's 1968. So 13 years. I don't like that opening scene, can I say? I think we've had Andrew and Tom have been largely separated from each other. So either Tom and Lala have headed off and Andrix had his own plot or Tom's headed off and Lala and Andrik have had their own plot. And so this is the 1st time we get Tom and Edrick together. I think they work quite well. Don't you I do. And one of the things I love about these final 80% of the season is that I think that it gives the character of Adrik, the opportunity to be with the doctor. It gives Matthew a bit of, I don't know, stability or the fact that he is the most senior other senior person in the TARDIS crew. And I think, He's much more comfortable is the word I'm going to use throughout these 2 stories, and I think he probably delivers his best performance in the next story. Here, I think he's still finding his feet a bit through some scenes, but at other times, I think he's quite confident. I mean, he's never going to be great, and, you know, he's always awkward in his movements and that sort of thing, but I really do feel that these back eight episodes of this season are some of the best stuff that he does on the show. He's not being required to do things that he's terrible at. Like, you know, the conflict that starts creeping into the Cloudest crew next season, which he's always just kind of terrible in. Yeah, and it's really interesting to see him acting with Sarah Sutton. They actually have a really good but low key chemistry together. Yeah. You know, whereas... Well, that's the thing. As we get further into the 80s, chemistry in John Nathan Turner's mind seems to be people shouting at each other. That's chemistry. Whereas these 2, they're really quite sweet together. It's like they've never had a friend their own age, who is as intelligent. as Evan, we know that's the case for Adric. Because we know his background. We don't see any other people on track and this is age. So they immediately take to each other and they sort of do science do science-y chat with each other and there's a little bit of banter of, oh, you don't know this, but I know this. They're very, very sweet together. Can we go back to that 1st scene, which I really don't like, which I think is a big step, and that's where the keeper of truck and flits in to do some exposition. But I love that. Yeah, I love the fact that this is the 1st time that somebody's come into the TARDIS. We're doing flashbacks using the TARDIS scanner. We've got that wonderful shot, which is a mimic of the shot back in the leisure hive where the camera goes through the scanner into the scene. And to me, this is the 1st time we're actually doing flashbacks in a Doctor Who story of this nature. I love the whole thing about the keeper. You've got the keeper, you've got you've got the consoles, you've got the proctors, you've got the society, you've got all the different planets working together. I imagine that there were other keeper cabinets on the other planets. the place, with other consoles for those planets, but Trucken is the major one. I was dreaming this as a kid. Like the whole society and what was going to happen and all this sort of thing. I just inspired my imagination. I think it's really strong. I do think that the result is you do get a place that has very clear rules that you can understand really well, but it is, like, I think it's just a little bit leaden, and you imagine if it was to happen now, what you would do is you would start seeing the world and having it shown to you and not just explain to you by exposition guy. And then you would go 10 years later or 5 years later. Yeah, that's a good point. But I think that is the point. In 1981, this hadn't really been done. No. So the idea, of course, you know, films and TV have always had what we now call info dumps, sort of expositional dialogue. This is, at the very least, an interesting way of doing it because the keeper could just turn up and say, oh, we have this problem doctor. Please come and help us, which is kind of what Zaster does in Meglos. But this is a lot more interesting because we see that history. And I think that's something that's very much coming from Johnny Byrne. Johnny Byrne always tries in his mind, he always has a backstory to his stuff. Because Johnny for science fiction fans is probably most famous for being script editor, one of the script writers of space 1999. And quite a few episodes of Early Space 1999, start with an alien somehow turning up on the base and giving a bit of exposition. And maybe not at the beginning, like episodes like Alpha Child episodes like Earthbound, you know. I think it's more successful here because in Space 1999. You've got 20 minutes of Barbara Bain looking at the camera saying but is it safe? Whereas this, you have wonderful banter between Tom Baker and Dennis Carey, you know, which is adorable. Todds exploding. I don't say something about... His space 999. It's sort of like you're trying to sell Johnny Byrne on the back of that. I guess it is season one, which is better than season two. don't know. Season 2 goes to Hail. awful. Going back, you were trying to make a point about. Oh, no, no, I just said that I thought that the exposition and maybe I'm being unfair, but certainly by modern standards, it's kind of leaden and it slows things down. And are we to understand that they arrive on the wedding day? No. So they... Oh, maybe they run after the wedding. Yeah, just after the wedding. Because then we get the scene if all the stars were silver and if I were a Shakespeare play, I couldn't be happier than I am right now. And that's not in the flashback, is it? No, that's actually happening. So I think in terms of chronology, if you like. The keeper turns up to bless the wedding. sees Cassia with the reaction to TreeMass being put forward and then summons the doctor because he's like, hold on, you know, this isn't, this isn't how Trunkins react to so great normal. skip down on the reception. Yeah, exactly. get the doctor to come and then the doctor arrives. It's really interesting, like, again, this is a story where a character knows about the doctor. This is something that's beginning to happen more and more in 80s Doctor 2, which I don't particularly love. Yeah, right? But it's there and at the moment it hasn't happened too often which is perfectly okay. Obviously, we get to see Melka appear in the flashbacks with young Cassia. Which is all very convenient. That's one thing that, you know, that, that, that, that, Mel could assigns to manifest itself by just descending rather than um realising, of course, that would give the whole plot away. I mean, it's the one thing now that when I do watch it is that, you know, the doctor is aware of the energy readings of Melker and is suspicious, but I think it takes him far, far too long to sort of come to the realisation that this is the master. So, the master has allowed himself to get trapped because the word melka is the Tranken's name for a phenomenon that happened. Yeah, fly fract and honey. Yeah, so these things, so the masters allowed himself to do this he's been in the TARDIS trapped for like 20 years or something like since Cassia was a little girl. You see, to me, when I read it, I don't necessarily see seeing him as being trapped per se. That's the track and perspective that these things have been... Oh, yeah. So he, for all purposes, realises that the keeper's time is drawing to an end. So he's waiting for it. But why wouldn't he just then materialise, you know, 3 minutes before the keeper's going to drop dead to take over the source because he's got a plan, his traps within traps for castra valver and logopolis in case it all goes horribly wrong over the next 2 stories. Am I going off on a complete... No, because I don't think he's developed those planes yet. He does say to the doctor later, you will find mobility, immobility and durable. Do you know what I mean? So it does suggest that he has been trapped. The Melka thing looks tremendous. The statue is great. Yeah, beautiful. When it moves, like, I actually like how it moves. I do too. I think it's a slightly dodgy on some of the leg movements, but the head and all that and I just think it's it's a great design and it really is quite freaking. It's surprising, I think when it starts moving as well. It does look like it's going to be a statue and then it walks up at the end of episode one. With the master's long, long, long game, if you like. I actually really, really like it because we kind of discussed in deadly assassin, the character had been weakened and he was just a raving, raving madman and what have you, who wanted to blow up the world because it's there. Whereas here, okay, so the master knows that the keeper's gonna die. But rather than materialise 3 minutes before, he's he's immobile he's trapped in his TARDIS. So he's like, right, I'm going to get there 20 years before and I'm going to build up this relationship with a person and then I'm going to use that person. The master's always used people, but instead, but, you know, he can't use this hypnotic power. And with the way evil works on track and that's apparently calcified, that it's understandable, that he can't just pop out of the TARTIS and go, zap, you're in my power now. No, he doesn't sort of hypnotise Cassia until the events of the story and even then it's just to strengthen the holes. He already has on her. But the thing is, he hasn't spoken to her before the story. His entire psychological hold on her, she's made herself. It's so evil and insidious and I love it. It's, it, it's, They decided they wanted to bring back the master and they bring, they look at, what are his greatest qualities, you know, not, not that he kills people. You know, that's that's the Daleks thing. Not that he's cold and logical, that's the sign dancing. No, his main quality is he can turn people against themselves. Just what you've said has made me love this story even more. It's something I never, never really thought about. The Master's a late edition, isn't it? Yes, Johnny Burner delivered the scripts and then he went off onto holiday and then Nathan Turner decided that the master would be great to bring the master back. Let's put him into this story and Bid had to then do the work to do that. I don't know what the difference is between the original and that but, you know, if Melco was there. And Melka's long game was to get into the keeper's chair making the changes. I think it adds a layer to the story. Yeah, absolutely. Do you think it was a good idea to bring back the master? In the long term? No, but in the short term, I think it really works for this and the next 2 stories. I think that bridging that is good. After that, I think, well, what they do with the master is pretty pathetic. Well, they're not really thinking about the character in another sense. I mean, Brendan, what you say about him manipulating people and making them act against their own interest. But what the master really is, is a rival who threatens to take over the doctor's role as star of the program. He needs to be the opposite of the doctor. And so each new iteration of the doctor really needs a different master. You know, so you've got Delgado, who is patrician, arrogant, but foreign. You know, he's like a version of Pertwee, and he works with Pertwee. Here, you've got Ainley, who's not really designed to work with a particular doctor. He has a goatee because that's what he had in the 70s and he's just a long because that's the sort of thing that Doctor Who used to do. But of course, Ainley is not the master yet. He's tree mouse. And he's rather wonderful, has tree mouth. This is Anthony Amy's best performance in Doctor Who, in my opinion, and I utterly adored tree medicine. I was utterly not devastated, but really upset at the end of the story when he gets when he is married. I think it's an amazingly upsetting ending. Yeah, and I just... I just adore TreamS as a character, like this, this father, this husband, this, this really good, honest man, who, who can talk to the doctor who wants to protect his people. It's just, it affects me now, just, just talking about it. It's only, I don't know, it's like the Pitt and Jane Baker thing the more you see of the actor or their writing, the more you see the cliches in their performance. So there's certain ways that Anthony Ainley pronounces his words et cetera, now, that I see in the performance of tree mass, only because I've seen his performance at the master. You know? Do you know, I actually, I don't think he's that good. And I think the reason is, and it's maybe the script's problem and maybe the director as well, but it's his wedding day and the day after his wedding day and he's just curiously kind of unaffected by the death of his wife and by her acting all weird and out of character. You know, like he shows no affection really to Nissa at all and he doesn't really seem to show any affection to Cassia either. Yeah, see, though, I think, I think the Tracans, they're a little bit Vulcan. You know, they're so they're so science-y-minded that, The, you know, the only character who sort of expresses what we would consider as negative human elements is Neiman, and, you know, he's a, he's an opportunist and what have you. And that scene as a bad thing. I suppose you've also got Lubic. I love Lubic. I like Lubic as well. I thought he was John Leeson when I was a kid. You know, he looks like John Leeson, but there's that wonderful bit. I think it's episode 2 where Ceron is killed. John Woodner. John Woodner is back again and being wonderful and they're discussing what's happening. Uh, Couture, who is um, Margot Vanderberg. She's Kamika. She's Kameka from the Aztecs, and they're discussing what they should do, and Lubic leans in to say something very important and says, I don't know what's going on. He says about 3 times, actually. And it sounds like it sounds like that character. And you've talked about all these actors, and I just think the casting, all these people are cast in these roles, and I just think they do such a tremendous job. I just, I love Seron. I love his scientific thing and John Willard does such a great job. Like, you know, we're betrayed tree mass and Margot Vanderberg as Coutura. I really hate it. Like as a character because it's sort of like, well, we're going to just kill the doctor, kill the strangers. And then, of course, when we get the new keeper, it's sort of like oh, well... We'd better do what he says. Exactly. It's sort of like she's after her own skin. It's very much like Downton Abbey where you've got the Maggie Smith character who's very much in the past, you know what I mean? And things need to stay the same, and you know, this is the way we've always done it. And so that parallel now sort of reminds me of her. But they're all, I just think getting such Shakespearean and wonderful performances. And I think it's one of the, the strengths of this story. You know, John Black then cast Sheila Ruskin as Cassia, who I just feel for her, like, and at other times, I just want to punch her in the face. You know? It's a really actorly performance. Her performance. Yeah, yeah. And you hit on something with a Shakespeare thing, and I think that this is said quite often about this show, that at the time it's made, the BBC is producing a thing called a season of Shakespeare, where they do every Shakespeare play, and they're about two hours long, depending on the sort of source material they're all shot in the studio, and the sets all look very similar to the set from Keeper of Track, and, like, you know, with the sky. Like I love the sky and the grove. I think it looks spectacular, and that's how they do the outdoor scenes in a season of Shakespeare. Okay. And the costumes are very much like that. So the whole thing looks production wise very much like that. But the scripts as well have sort of Shakespearean elements in it. And so Sheila Ruskin fainting. Can I just say that asleep? That is one of the most hilarious things when you're sort of like there's a web of nothing here and I'm going to just collapse on the ground or when she's saying, no, we must not become the keeper or whatever. She does a little assignment. And he was going, what? What? nothing at all. I really, really liked that. And there's like, you know, pulling people out from behind things like Polonius in Hamlet. And some of the dialogue is in iambic pentameters and, you know their Shakespearean language. I think Serong accuses them of meeting hugger mugger to like Polonius's burial, I think. There is a very sort of deliberate Shakespearean thing. And of course, thematically. There are scenes in Shakespeare, like, at the death of Duncan, in Macbeth, or The Death of Julius Caesar, in Julius Caesar. The madness of King Lear when he's out with the when he's out with the fool. Yeah, so it's reflected, like the king, the state of the monarch like the death of a king, results in nature going crazy and there's storms and all of those kinds of things. Horses eat each other. The horses eat each other, it said. And so that's what's happening here. It's a huge theme in Shakespeare and this is about a court discussing the succession of one monarch to another, and the whole health of the body politic depends on the health of a monarch, and even nature itself depends on the health of the monarch. Something I quite like about that is, you know, of course, pre Mass is named as keep a nominate, that doesn't happen. Cassia steps in and is usurped by the master, so the master becomes the keeper. But then finally, Luvic becomes a keeper. Luvic, who has been sitting there going, I don't know what to do what do we do? I don't do anything. He is the one who makes the final decision. You know, I will sacrifice myself for my people. I love how he does that because it's a real rush and he and Couture are kind of with each other and he goes, I'll go. And they sort of rush us off and sits in the chair and it's just terrific. He's really great. Yeah, it's bringing tears to my eyes. Like it honestly is one of the most affected scenes for me in the history of the show. And what happens in the following story. Just let me utterly devastate. utterly and totally devastated. Right? I don't want to talk about it now, right? But it just really, really upsets me even to even think about it now. I just think with everything that has gone on in this story. We were talking a bit about, like, you know, the elements and the forces and that sort of getting upset. The scene with all the wind and all that sort of stuff, I don't think, is that well done now looking at it. No, but it's a stage thing. Yeah, so it fits with the style of the production. There's a few little things like in the direction. I'm sure there's one moment where the camera is coming into to one of those step ups out of the grove and I'm sure it hits it at some point. Like there's a little bump and I just went, so there's a few little things and I don't actually like the meld at the end between Trimus and the master. I think that's really quite, I just kind of, I kind of go, oh, it's really, it's really big proming. One special effect that I think works terrifically well is at the end of episode 3 where Cassia is covered with this superimposed effect because she's going to disappear and be replaced by the master. And she does her sort of actressy waving her arms around. But there's a point where it's just her hands coming out of this special affair. Yeah, yeah, and it looks really creepy. terrifying. And I just want to talk about that. I think that is one of the most utterly horrific moments in the history of Doctor Who, and I went to bed and had nightmares. I was crying over that and I still affects me to this day when even when I watch it, the fact that this woman is materialised on. She is just, that is her death. It is just so, she's done everything to protect her husband, you know, even having funny eyes, like, um, uh, the, uh, image of the fend doll, which I really love, love it when they do those. But it is funny how, like, you know, she'll just stun tree mass but everybody else who gets zapped by it dies. Well, she loves tree masks, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's very Shakespearian as well. The love between couples in Shakespeare almost always leads to people dying. But yeah, it just... It just really affects me. Her entire death just really, really affects me. Besides Cassia, the other member of the family is, of course NISA. And I think Sarah Sudden is great. You know, she's so natural. I love the fact that Nissa gets the iron bonder and gets to zap people. You know, she's actually given some, she's quite willing to take up arms, you know, the 1st opportunity, that is the prerequisite of a companion is willing to get in there and, you know, defend the doctor and fight for good. You know, she'll do it again in the other Johnny Burns script, you know? And you know, she's not given many of these opportunities, which is, you know, so unfair. And I love, and we talked earlier about her relationship with Adrick, and I like that this little duo that are trying to work on their own thing, which is parallel to the doctor and treatment discussing, you know, destroying the source in parallel. And, um, and I like the fact that she gets to go inside the Tartars and see all that as sort of an introduction. Obviously, at this point they hadn't decided that she was going to come aboard the crew in the next story. And I think the moment that that tremor becomes the master. I think influences that script because in Lagopolis, there's a whole bit about, you know, she thinks it is her father. Now, if they didn't have Nyssa in there to do that. You know, who would it be? What would be going on in the plot? You know, that's a good 10 minutes of that plot that he needs her for. She, I mean, she's a very experienced actor by this stage, isn't she? She's done lots of things as a child and she's pretty good here. She doesn't really appear until she doesn't get a line until episode two, does she? Yeah, it does take a while for her to get that. But just, you know, her relationship with Cassia, you know, getting discovered in the grove and then telling the proctor to send away the people and hilarious. fabulously anastocratic, isn't she? Yeah, again, that's another sort of Shakespearean thing, this sort of class thing. So they're the mob, you know, and they're an offence against the dignity of the consoles or something. She's a fabulous princess in that scene. I know, you know, I love the fact that they're, when they do get put away downstairs, you know, she's going to break them out of the prison and all that sort of stuff. It reminds me always of that scene when they're actually in the cell with Tom, where he's got that bit of sawdust dangling from his nose. I thought it was a spider web. It looks like a great big bogey, doesn't it? Yeah, a lot of people think it's a movie. Well, if you look at the ground, it's all got sawdust. So it's obviously, but it's there and then it's not, you know, it jumps between the different tanks. It's always interesting to see. One of the things I really love is the flames that indicate that the keeper is dying, that whole concept of them being really like brightly lit and then gradually going down. I don't know why. I like these things, but I just do. It's just something the visual of it just really, really appeals to me. That is a thing called a flame bar. That, that thing with the poems. And if you imagine sort of a strip of metal that has, it's got gas jets inside and it shoots the flames up. It's the same thing. Probably not the exact same one, but it's the same type of thing that I hold in front of the camera in the last episode when the doctor's making is escape to have flames in front of him, yeah. And it was they were very commonly used in television for fire scene. So it's kind of like you can just have, really, you can just have smoke going on in the background and have that flame bar close to the camera and the actor is never in any danger. Now, here they do have fire in the background as well. But yeah, it's a flame bar. There you go. interesting. Proctanine. Interesting little character who's very much in it for himself who eventually gets one of the rings of the consoles. I always love that thing that you get this special ring and you get to put it into the console and punch these magic numbers. It's literally a secret decoder ring for our American listeners. Like, I mean, that's really stupid. Those numbers that the doctor punches, the last 3 digits are 337. Like I'm going, where are you making this up from? But that's the encryption key. There's dialogues, isn't there? They need to... based on a single prime number. Yeah, hold on. I've got it here. What's that piece of the mechanism? Oh, of course, a recursive integrator. How are the rings encoded? Gamma mode encryption. Then there'll be a single large prime number at the root of it, and we don't have the integer key. Yeah, so there you go. That makes no sense to me. I don't understand. That makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Prime numbers are used in encryption, I think. And so they're entering the prime number in there too, because they don't have all of the all of the secret decoder rings. I love his neckband and Cassie's neckband that they get to wear. Which no one notices. No one notices the neck band. You've added that thing that occasionally glows red when you kill people. Where did you get that? Speaking of which, that, where did she get it actually? Did the master nip outside and put it at the feet of the thing? If so, where's the door in Melka? Well, you know, he's had to be doing something for the last 20 years. Actually, just started off as a normal bondage comment. So can we talk about Jeffrey Beavers? We could. He's got a spectacular voice. It's really great. And it's sometimes really evil and sometimes a bit playful. There's some humour in it. It's just tremendous. All designs are wonderfully well delivered, and he's gone on to have a great career in the audiobooks, whenever, because, um, you know, no one else who played the master in the in the original show is is with us any longer, he's the one who reads the audiobooks that have the master in them, and he's wonderful. You know, why couldn't you cast somebody like him as the master? Like, you don't have to look like, no, Roger Delgado. Like, but of course, you know, at that time, that's not, that's not the thinking. His work in Big Finish as the master is just spectacular. I think it's a real shame that he's not credited as the master on screen. He just credited as Melka, you know? And I think once that reveal it happened. I think he should have been credited as the master. In the final episode. But that, all that stuff with Neiman and TreeMass and the Melka. Asking T-Mass as a reasonable man to execute Nieman and now yourself. It really does establish how unhinged the master is. Yeah, he doesn't actually get to do anything sort of, oh, he kills Cassia, I guess, but if you're going to reintroduce him. He's got to be kind of super evil, I think. And so having Neiman killed like that and having, you know, the doctor forced to watch and stuff. That is nasty. It's nastier than the show has been for a while. But, you know, I think it's worth doing. But very tellingly, it manages to be very nasty and horrific without resorting to blood and guts. Because, of course, you know, early 80s, this is around the time. Of course, Texas Chainsaw Massacre was 6 or 7 years before this the Friday, the 13th film series was really taking off. We were a couple of years off getting nightmare on Elm Street. You know, slasher films were huge in this period. But Doctor Who is going at this point. You know what? No. We're going to do what we did well at the beginning of this era. We're going to have psychological horror. And it's really, really effective. And I think it's all the more effective for the reasons you were saying, Todd, we have such excellent casting, that when these characters do die, despite the fact we've only known them for half an hour or an hour, it means something and we feel something for them. And I think we can imagine ourselves in that situation. And that is a criticism that will come back during the next few seasons of Doctor Who can we actually empathise with these characters? I love how it's suave milker is once it becomes the keeper and picks in, you know, puts into Trimis's... house or quarters, I should say, and, you know, is asking for certain things. It's back to his voice performance. Yeah, it's wonderful. so wonderful. Yeah, no, he sounds just super reasonable and sort of mild. He's terrific. He really is spectacular. You know, I think I'm liking this story a lot more hearing you talk about it, Todd. I was going to spend some time bitching about what, I think, like the kind of flaws of the bid made year. And this exhibits some of them. There's a lot of kind of that thing that Brendan quoted earlier about gamma mode encryption and stuff isn't necessarily the most entertaining thing. There's something to be said about, stick on BBC beers. There are a bit more obvious. 30 years later, but it does create a really vivid and coherent world. this story and characters that you care about that aren't all men for a change. I think it is, it is pretty good and it looks great. It's a world that I would have loved to visit. Like, you know, there's some Doctor Who, and that's one as a child that I would have loved to, if it really happened, you know? This story has, uh, surprisingly, long afterlife in the world's big finish because, of course, Jeffrey Beavers, as you mentioned Nathan, not only is he reading the audiobooks for the BBC. They brought him back as the master, opposite, predominantly Tom Baker, but also Sylvester McCoy, he's done some excellent stories for Sylvester McCoy. There was dust breeding where he originally comes back along with his wife, the late Carol and John, of course. He's Mr. Elizabeth Shaw. That is a tremendous audio. Anybody out there, if you've not heard it. That is one to get. What's it called? Dust reading. And also Master by Joe Linster. Which was one of the 40th anniversary stories, and it kind of goes into the doctor and the master's relationship. But in the last few years, he's mainly been acting alongside Tom in stories set before the keeper of Tracan. Right. He's had stories with Louise Jameson. I think he's got one coming up with Lull Award, and there's even a trilogy this year called The Two Masters, where you've got Jeffrey Beavers, and he's doing a story with Peter Davidson. You've got Alexander McQueen, who Big Finis have introduced as another new incarnation of the master. He's that guy from the thick of it. Think of it, yeah. And he's doing a story with Colin Baker. And then you've got the 2 Masters, which is both of them with Sylvester McCoy. Oh, I thought you were going to say they were going to have that dude from the TV movie. Gordon Tipple is interviewed in Doctor Who magazine in the in the March issue of Doctor Who magazine. quite a good interview and they have a shot of him in full makeup and in full costume on the set, which I don't think has ever been seen before. I have to download that. I haven't been to the app for ages. It's also got an interview with Eric Roberts, who is actually an it seems like a quite a humble and down to earth guy and really enjoyed his time. And Jeffrey Beavers, whenever he talks about Doctor. We saw him at a convention 2 years ago, I think, when he came out here and it was shortly after Carol and John had died, but he was talking about how he loved doing it even then, but now he's got this afterlife in the show as well. He always talks about the fact that he wanted to use his own eyes as opposed to the previous Peter Pratt, giggly eyes. With a goggly eye. Yeah, well, I think I think that that's the right choice. That mask with the sausage fingers and stuff. That's too. It's too static. I think the big problem is like painting painting the teeth on his lips. And to his credit, he tries as much as possible not to move his lips while he's performing because he knows he's got the teeth on there. I think they've meant to, I thought that just cracked lips. Cracked lips. I always read it that way. I know because you've got the Peter Pratt thing that had the skull teeth. Yeah. which somehow still left him able to pronounce labial consonants. But whatever, like Skeletor. So a real description, labial content? Yeah, you did not know that. Okay. So he can still pronounce those. But, yeah, no, I always just assumed that those were his lips, and certainly, because he does that hilarious big scream thing at the end, because he and the doctor meet very, very briefly and then thinks instantly, pretty much, instantly go horribly wrong for him. And then he does that huge massive giant scream, which is he's such a sport for doing that. And, you know, they're clearly his lips in that. You know what? I do think as well. Bring back master is inspired by Darth Vader. Because, you know, we've got Star Wars slash A New Hope, which came out in 1977 followed by Empire Strikes Back in 1980. So here we get the master is throughout the story, like Darth Vader is throughout the 1st film. But Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker have no interaction in the 1st film. They have one fight together which hand saves Luke from. Here, the master and the doctor have one scene together in the same room with the doctor fully aware of who he is. You know, he's suspected for a little while. And as you say, Todd, he's a bit slow on the uptake. Even Adrik notices that the readings are the same as the TARDIS before the doctor does. Which is what I was saying earlier about the fact that Andric, the character. That's a clever thing, whereas next year we're getting like a 12 year old. Whereas here it's like he's a young man who's maturing. And so he's worked this out. He's doing these independent things. Yeah, so I think that that's possibly an influence because when we look at Graham Williams, Graham Williams, of course, tried to emulate Star Wars by having big spaceship shots and really good models. Whereas I think Doctor Who's kind of realised now, you know, let's let's emulate the classic kind of hero confronts villain. if we're going to have a trilogy. The hero can win the battle in the 1st episode, but not the war. And I think that's what happens here. You know, the doctor frightens the master off, but we do get that horrible ending where he takes over TreeMass, who is a character you know, we've really come to know and admire over these 4 episodes. And even that scene where he comes into conflict with the doctor and the doctor gives him that wonderful dressing down of, oh yeah. When, when, the source is, when the source has been taken over and trunkens in ruins and everyone's dead, at least you kept your honour intact. Yeah, and that, with lesser actors, that line would have been screamed or shouted. Like, okay, as much as I love, say, John Pertley and Colin Baker in the role, you know, that would have been a browbeating thumping the desk. Oh, no, but he over enunciates the word intact. Yeah, yeah, so wonderfully. It's really good. That's the thing. He's so still. He doesn't raise his voice. It's just his tone that changes. And again, Anthony Angley doesn't rail against it. He just kind of quietly accepts that he does have to break his vow. And until this moment, everyone else has been breaking vows all around him, and he's trying to keep his honour, but he kind of comes to the realisation of, I have to give up this part of myself. And maybe that's foreshadowing. don't know. His terrible line is when he says we're so fortunate to have met you, doctor, at the end, which is just a hugely embarrassing line delivery, but it is foreshadowing what is just a scene like nothing that we've ever seen in Doctor Who before. So we have the standard, you know, thanks and goodbye. And there's a really nice moment in the TARDIS between the doctor and Adrik, which I just think is solidifying their relationship which I, again, I think, adds to my liking of Adrik throughout these 8 episodes. But then, well, we think the show's over. And we get a scene back in track and we're talking about cleaning up and all of that sort of thing. And at the very beginning of that scene, the grandfather clock is visible in the background, but not remarked upon, you actually see it, like at the very start of that shot. And then Trimis, you know, goes up and touches it and we get a new body at last and stuff. And then the TARNIS dematerialises, and Nissa walks into that shop. There's no cut. So the shot from which her father has been abducted just seconds before and turns around and farther where? are you? So it ends on a question, you know, it's obviously a kind of cliffhanger to lead us into next week. and the reintroduction of the master. But do you remember it at the time? I just sort of was so astounded by it. And I did think at the time, bringing the master back properly having an actor play him rather than him turning up every 5 years looking, you know, a bit gruesome. I thought it was a great idea, and certainly it's like, oh, my God what's going to happen now? I'm with you. Again, I didn't know anything about the deadly assassin. Right? So when the master turns up, it's like a big shock, you know? And they don't make a big deal about it. Like, it's not a big continuity thing. That's just how he looks. he's at the end of his life cycle, you know? And so because it's been so long, since Roger Delgado, in my head it's like this mythical character from the past, you know, is coming back. And so when he does that transformation, as a kid, I thought it was great, now I think it looks crummy. But the same look and everything, you know, it was sort of like, oh my goodness, this is just like, he doesn't look at the camera or anything. Like, you can barely see his new face, do you know what I mean? Like, there's that stupid transformation. And then he says the line, you know, a new body at last again, but with, like, he's back to the camera sort of thing. I think it's sort of hand-fistedly done, you do really want to see him properly. No, see, I think it's deliberate, and I think it's so clever because the master has spent the whole story using people and then using them to kill one another, to try and get this power, his plan is spoiled. Does he care? No, he's got a new body. He doesn't even care about you, the audience. He's just going to bugger off and cause mayhem elsewhere. I do think it's deliberate because John Black, as you say, Todd he's not the best director, but he is very stylish and he is very stylised. I think if he'd wanted that to be a big moment of him turning to the camera and saying, look at my new face, we would have had that moment. No, it's the master breaking the 4th wall in a very soft way and having complete disregard for the audience. Yeah, you want to see my face? Come back next week. And in fact, we don't see it next week. No, we just see him laughing and when we do finally see him on Legopolis, that is actually quite a good reveal and maybe it was worth waiting for. It's the homes again thing. They showing a bit of the monster at a time. Yeah. Yeah. You just getting flashes. No, I think it's a conscious goad of the audience. Well, I'm glad that we've turned Nathan around a bit on this story from what you were wanting to... I think there are flaws. I think there are problems with the performance and problems with the direction and I do think there's too many BBC beards and a little bit too much talk about the scien-y stuff. The moon's terrible. I like the moon. And I like the sky, but there's a lot going for this. There's just something about this that it is my favourite of the season. We, uh, take off from Tranken and not a moment too soon, but we will be back next week for a chain of events that fragment how the universe is held together. There is only one thing we can do to prevent this, gentlemen. I'm afraid that all four of us will need to be in full rapport with the podcast. Richard will be back next week as we talk about Legopolis. Until then. Please check us out online at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes, FTE podcast on Twitter. Don't forget Bondfinger.com, Bondfingercast, on Twitter, and Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes. Until then, may none of your honey have flies trapped in it. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. That was Fletcher Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Botterley and Brendan Jones. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode, Web of Nothing, was recorded on the 20th of March 2016. The next episode will be released on May 22nd. If all the stars were silver and the sky, a giant purse in my hand I'd still discover that the day pole milk or action figure was really expensive. The keeper of Tracan. Sorry, 20th of March. That's tracking. tracking. Do you remember that in Gary Downey's Doctor Who cookbook? Johnny Burns recipe is the kipper of Tracon. Oh God. There's even an illustration of a kipper in like in like truck and gowns in front of in front of the source cabinet. That's really, really sad. I love to have a doctor who cookbook. What culinary delights await you. Well, there's a profile on Jackie Lane, which explains she's actually Jocelyn Lane from New York, which is complete bollocks. He just couldn't find any autobiographical info, like she sent her a recipe to him, but she couldn't find any autobiographical information about her. So he's like, right, I'll make something up. Well, you could do that in 1918, whatever. And then, you know, Lala Ward's recipe is some is rabbit with streaky bacon. Freshly shot on the estate. Um, Fraser's recipe is some kind of soup with um, with um, darlic crotons. Brilliant. Garlic crudons. All right. Oh, that's right. Liz Sladon does cauliflower cheese. So it's the illustration is Sarah Jane sneaking up on a crinoid with the knife and the ball. It's really awful. It must be on eBay. I'm gonna buy it. Just wait for the clock again. I thought I'd stop to that clock. Once again, we wait for roof bar. You don't get this kind of excitement on 42 to doomsday, dear listen. I know, that's right. Trust you, doctor. 20. I know they're so young, aren't they? It's crazy. 20. Yep. Keon turned 20 yesterday. Or today his time. You informed me of this fact. I changed to blitering from my memory. Keon doesn't know the struggle of his family wanting to watch Adam's family values rather than the telly movie. I've got shirts that old.