It’s All About Him

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to this very special episode of Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast, where we all have Talking Vegetables on our shoulders. I'm Brendan, and this is my friend Leroy. I'm Nathan and this is Smedley. I'm Richard, this is my friend Tom. Thank you, Richard for saving me. Why did you call the talking vegetable, Jesus Christ? That's the last question I'm going to ask because as this is a retrospective, That means Todd is in charge. So Mr. Beale, it may refer to you. Yes, I know him a lovely vegetable. He's a beautiful woman, probably. Probably. Thank you for putting me in charge. Oh my goodness. So here we are at the end of the Tom Baker era. How do we feel, guys? Tired. Well, I... I just edited 42 episodes of Tom Baker, so I'm feeling like I should be drunk. Let's get to it. I'm really pertinent question. Tom as a doctor. His performance. Now that you've watched all 7 seasons. How are you feeling about it? It's definitive. No, at least don't give me my responses. Okay, it's definitive. Okay. He is a lot more consistent than my, if you like, received wisdom and dipping in in and out of his era would attest. You know, and a lot of people say, oh, you know, he's great in the Hingecliff era and then he stops acting in Graham Williams and then he's grumpy for his last year. And it's like, oh, you know what? Actually, the coldness and the alienness of the part is always there. Certainly his jokiness does increase. And then he's doing a different thing again in season 18. But I think there are only very rare occasions, and I don't think it's ever one entire production, but I think there are rare occasions where Tom's just kind of fed up and phoning it in a bit but I think, you know, that's happening in certain scenes rather than happening in whole stories. Like, you know, even if you look at something like underworld where it was incredibly unhappy with the production, he still gives the best performance he can for someone who's acting against a curtain. I've got a lot more respect for him and I think possibly where my impression came from was, you know, we were all fans in the 90s when the show wasn't on and we kind of, you know, had to make our own fun, as it were. And many lonely fan boys did, yes. And a lot of that came with bashing the program. And, you know, sometimes it was fun and affectionate in the way we do it. And sometimes you know, it was quite cruel. And there was, I seem to recall, the sort of move at the time to kind of say, oh, everyone says that Tom Baker was amazing. Well, I think he was rubbish. What do you think about that? And I think the truth is somewhere in between. They do that thing with their shoulders that you're doing right now. They did actually. James Sel, what if you're listening? Oh, James. Richard. Richard, what did you think, Todd? No. Nathan? No, from these questions back at me. I think I do think that he, I think I've said before that it's not an acting performance in a sense. And that's a bit unfair. The real thing about Tom Baker is that he's just really charismatic and just fantastic to watch. He's really, really, really great. I think. And, you know, he's much more central to every scene that he's in than any of his predecessors and certainly than his immediate successor. And, you know, Trouton is also terribly engaging to watch. Just lovely, but he's not, he doesn't have the look at me equality but Tom has. And so I really think it's not just a function of, you know, when he was the doctor that makes him the version of the doctor that will appear on The Simpsons, the one that everyone thinks about. The American Convention circuit version of the doctor, actually. Yeah, the interpreted version. Yeah. It's because he's just magnetic.. Yeah. He is, I guess, the cloisterball going, Tom. I agree. He certainly filled my box as a child and he still does, too overflowing. He really did take up more space than the picture tube, good handle, and it was extraordinary, and starting with him again at 8 or 9. Wow. And again, it's the Billy Piper principle looking at his head which feature is the biggest, the eyes, the teeth, the nose. You can't tell. It's whatever you're looking at at the time. I was privileged to stand only inches away from his waist in 1979 and I have to say he is an enormous gentleman in every way. He really does fill up and take up a great deal of personal geography. He's just enormous. Just enormous in every single way, and lovely in income. He described pertly as incandescent, but I actually think that's more appropriate for Tom. And my, and the thing is, the reason I loved the show kept going with it. I didn't get to see Pat and Billy till much later, but we didn't even know who they actually were in the 70s as children. Well, there wasn't media around. And so as a young person, you actually, there was no way you could even see, to see them. It's nothing exciting until the Doctor Who Monster book came out. So yeah, they were just figures in a black pyramid like Todd used to often be. Yeah, I think Tom is the reason Doctor Who is still on to this day. I think that's a good point. I mean, I think the show, uh, before Tom, it was very much British in Australia. It wasn't really in America, you know, and that certainly happened during his time. Do you think he stayed too long in the role? Do you think that there is a negative or any negative to his legacy as the doctor or is it all positive? He's hard to replace. And I do think that that's a problem. And I think at least the next 2 doctors and the way that they're conceptualised or, in one case, not at all conceptualised by the production team is a problem. It's interesting for me that when researching the podcast to discover that Tom could have left in the Armageddon factor. And I was kind of thinking, yeah, would I have been satisfied with that? Kind of like, you know what? yeah? Yeah, he'd had a good run up until that point. We said that about old people. And they go. Well, he had a great innings. But, you know, it's kind of like other doctors I look at. And certainly all of the coming doctors. of the classic series Peter, Colin Sylvester, I think, could have done more. Whereas John and Tom. I don't feel they outstayed their welcome, but at the same time, I kind of look at their eras and go, that's whole, that's complete. I think, you know, with the Davidson, as we'll discuss later, you know, he kind of said that had he known the script situation was going to improve. He may have stuck around. Colin, of course, was improving in the role when he was dumped and Silv, the whole show was dumped, even though he'd agreed to another year. So I suppose it's not quite the same situation as Tom, where much like John, there is some discussion as to whether he really wanted to leave. Because by reports. The last 2 years with Graham Williams, season 16 and season 17, Tom would sort of say halfway through the season. Well, I'm going unless this happens and Graham Williams would capitulate. Whereas with John Nathan Turner, Tom said, I'm going unless this happens and John Nathan Turner said, oh, okay, what do you think of Peter Davidson? And Tom kind of went, oh, well, uh, And, you know, there were other things as well. He was marrying Lyle Ward and also as he says now, you know, the show was changing into something that wasn't the show I wanted to make. But at the same time, you know, as Tom says now, it wasn't all about him. But at the time, it was all about him, you know, because and he's got a point in which he says, you know, I've been on the show for 7 years. They hadn't been on the show for 7 years. I know how to make this. And he's why the people at home are watching and he knows it, I think, you know. He is irreplaceable at this point. At this point. Your favourite companion from Tom Baker's time in the show. My favourite companion would be Sarah Jane Smith, I think that's just a no-brainer. She's charming. You know, she's not necessarily the best actor, um, but she's a sentimental favourite. It's no excuse that Russell brings her back and gives her her own show. In fact, they keep trying to spin her off. They keep trying to bring him back, as we learned last week. Uh, and it's no surprise. You know, it's a character with a fairly thin, basic concept, but I think she's terrific, the performance is great. I like what you said in the past. She's the first character that actually becomes so high concept. She stops being a person. And I had never thought of that or seen that until Nathan brought it up during this whole season. And now I can't see her as anything other than an action figure and yet she's still my favourite all time after Barbara. But it's exactly what you see it. The companion's really good because they've just got the right producers behind them in the right direction and the right things. I mean, would list Laddin have been so extraordinary in all our hearts and minds had she been under Big Needs script direction. Very exciting. Yeah, no, I don't think so. I was kind of like, my, well, my answer to that question is the 1st Romana, Mary Tam. And I don't think she would have worked under Hinchcliffe or Bidmade. I think she would have been amazing under Hinchcliffe. I don't think she would have jailed with his vision of the show because, you know, she's got this aloof quality. But she might have played it differently. That's true. She may have done. But yeah, I think I think Sarah Jane Smith was kind of the perfect storm because she was cast by Barry Letts, of course, and thought when she was coming in that Hingecliffe would want to get rid of her, but he really liked her, but the character does go in that completely different direction. Has your opinion changed on the producers and what they brought to the program? In what way? It spun around like cotton Madras in the wash and all the colours have gone together. I used to think it was Hinchcliffe's as the zenith of fabulousness and then I thought in descending older than Graham Williams and then JNT and that because that was the received thinking in the 90s when, you know, after Gary Levy brought out Doctor Who Bulletin. Do you want to be? And it was just a slag fest against Sabred and JNT, and that was the, that was the received thinking. So, you know, Graham Williams was God, but Hinchcliffe was even put aside. But now I actually, yeah, it changes depending on what story I'm looking at, and there are great moments in all three. But for me, it's very distinct that we have 3 different doctors in Tom. And even Tom, with all his grandiosity and width and breadth and height and depth and girth. is only ever the sum of his puppet master's parts. And that actually what keeps that 7 years going. You've got 3 different doctors within the one doctor. It's quite unusual. You're not tired. Not at all. And then he does those extraordinary things in season 18 when you think when he is so tired and fatigued and lachrymose. And then he'll play play a walking cactus. But with such gravitas and such seriousness that you think, it's the same way that Oscar Wilde would write a villain, and you think oh, this is so light and so silly, and then he'll put in some a moment of such darkness. Ooh, and everyone has to stop back and look. Tom does that several times in season 18. Todd's mentioned it during the podcast and it's really all the more exciting for the difference. Yeah. He's a good actor. We forget that. He's challenged several times since he's 18 and he's really great. And he's on the front foot is not, yeah, because when he gets lazy this is the problem with a massive ego and a good talent, but a huge ego. They really do become their own worst enemies. Well, you see it at work as well. Brendan? Graham Williams, hands down, is my favourite producer of this era. Really? Absolutely. Because Hinchcliffe? Hinchcliffe produces an amazing show and it was incredibly popular and it's incredibly memorable. You know, you talk to people who watch Doctor Who casually as a child and they, they remember the mummies and they remember the Loch Ness monster. They remember the really well-spoken robots who would kill you with bicycle reflectors, you know, that sort of thing. And that's all from the mind of Hinchcliffe. But Graham Williams, had the task of being given a job he didn't really want. But then saying, What is the best program I can make out of these ingredients? And we get these 3 years of literary and lyrical style Doctor Who with no money, with no time. Yeah. And the problem is when the Hinchcliffe era falls down. Plan of the Beale, for instance, you know, with... Why is everyone nodding at this? But, you know, with its dull designs and its and it's Prentice Hancock, yeah, when the Hitchcliff era falls down, it doesn't have much to fall back on. When the Graham Williams era falls down, it's got in the invisible enemy, for instance, it's got the doctor and Leila standing with a wind machine going saying, where are we going into the land of dreams and fantasies? And prawns? and prawns. The power of crawl, the Armageddon, in fact, it kind of start to fall apart, but it's got Tom Baker and Mary Tann throwing witticisms at each other and has got some of the best lines of all time. She's not the easiest guest. And, you know, the doctor being horrified at the idea of having 6 Romana is badgering it. Yes. Yeah, the creature from the pit, which everyone says is terrible is actually a brilliant commentary on capitalism. I think it's one of the wittiest, funnest stories. I really love Christian. To paraphrase Day of the Doctor, Graham Williams was the producer of Doctor Who when it was impossible to get it right. I agree. And the strikes and the money you've talked about this as well, and the during the time. Yeah, it was impossible. It's extraordinary that we got what we got. And we loved it at the time. Let's not forget that. I think it's really interesting. doing the podcast with you all and you mentioned it, Richard. The things that Nathan, you've pointed out with Hinchley Vera. And I certainly think he got the perfect storm. He got the casting, he got the script editor, he got the budgets. You know, that makes his job easy. And that's what you're talking about here. I've a new respect for Graham Williams and his script editors and what they've had to go through and what they ended up on screen. As much as I don't like season 15, which I think is the worst season of Tom Baker by a long way. There are still elements in there that I like and enjoy as much as anyone else. But my opinions have changed. It's not through black and white, but Hinchcliffe is this, you know, demigod Williams is not so good and then J and T tries to make it, you know, something new and different. It's not as black and white as that. And that's something that I've discovered in this entire process. My favourite companion does remain Sarah Jane. But like has been pointed out. Her performance changes, especially after Harry and unit are taken away. Yeah, I don't like it. And it's very interesting that I'm perhaps not quite as enamoured as what I once was in those last few performances. I think there was pressure on the actress or just from the team or the changes that were happening there as well, and maybe when an actor decides to be, whether or not they're going to stay or go that imbues the performers, did you get that feeling with her? Well, I don't know. I mean, I think there is a change in her performance towards the end, but I think that's more to do with the character becoming not real. Yeah, it kind of becomes impossible to play. horribly. In fact, now I'm reflecting on it. It's actually a 1st season. And her stuff with Harry that makes Sarah Jane Sarah Jane. Yeah, it is. It isn't the pert we year, is it? Not really. No. Well, I don't know. I have a new appreciation for Harry Sullivan as a character. Underrated companion's spectacularly great. I think if we'd had another year of Harry and Sarah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, interesting. All right, I mean, talking of companions. Romana one, Romana 2, or just Romana? Oh, like how do we refer to her? Who do you prefer? Is there a preference? Mary Tam. Although, interestingly, it was Lala Ward when I was a child, and I think, and this was Lala's Rosemont Dethra, Lala appeals more to children and plays, plays, plays the character. Not childish, but with childlike interest and enthusiasm. And, you know, we see it in Hollywood movies with kids all the time, you know, the deepest inner desire of a child is to get one over on an adult. And that's what Romana 2 does constantly. You know, you have these villains who are adults and very serious and, you know, stealing paintings for their value and whatnot. She uses her child abilities to get past them. But yeah, as an adult, I prefer Mary Tam just wandering around and being arch and, oh, you drop this, yes, into your hand. Nathan? I think they're both great. I think they're both great. and they are different. like and for precisely the reasons we said at the time. You know, I had all those cracks about Mary taking a sabbatical from acting, slumming it in kids TV for a year, but she is so fun and she works terrifically well with Tom and she's so beautiful you know, just tremendous. But Lala is, is, Lala and Tom together work so well. She has this sort of infectious cheerfulness, which I just think is lovely. She is a bit more vulnerable, which is kind of nice for the drama I think. When we were doing this, Remember, it was saying over that season it's the same thing. You can't compare one woman to another. It's just all done. And it's the same. And it's just like, they're both exquisite in their own way and the characters all the better for having them both play it. And I think that's why that character is so strong and strongly remembered. How often do you get 2 actors able to interpret the same part other than the doctor? Ramana's or the master who doesn't want to count because it's the same damn thing every time until missy. You had to have to go through a huge reboot and change the gender to get anything fresh out of the master. So, and that, maybe that's why, um, you know, it's done so well this, and there's a BAFTA up there for, um, for that lovely woman. What plays missing? And something's gone out of my head because I'm an old person. Thank you. Sorry, Michelle, if you see me, you'll probably poke something in my eye. I saw what you wrote wrote on Jim Sangster's card. Did you see what she wrote? We can't see use of the words on this podcast. Yeah, no, I actually think the character is really interesting for having them both play it. And I just couldn't compare them both. Of course they're completely different, but it's richer for having them both in it. Yeah, it's interesting. It did take me a lot longer this time through to warm Tamala. It does, doesn't it, though? And even though she's so strong when she just comes in, she hits the mark right away, you don't think so. I don't think so, but I'm not going to go there with that. Again, what Brendan was saying as a kid, I preferred Lala? Yeah. Now, I just I just adored Mary Tam. you know, maybe it's because she's no longer with us or whatever. I just really did and but there's nothing to take away from my life whose performances are so entertaining. So I guess on that note, we need to do a snog marry or more. Scarrel. What have I been living with all these years? So, I'll start with, I don't know, I'll start with Brendan. Snog, Mary, avoid, Adrik, Nisarotine. Oh, horrible. That's really for the Pete retrospective, isn't it? It works here. We can do it again then. There aren't enough dental dams in the universe, God. Okay. Despite the fact she knows so little about telebiogenitors. We don't know that yet, do we? I think I would have to marry miss up. And I think that would be a perfectly pleasant time. Oh God. And just as it marches, I'd snog Matthew Waterhouse, I'd snog Adrick, he's held my mind. Yeah, but back then? Well, funnily enough, no, but it may come as a surprise to no one who's actually met me and Rod, but I do prefer the older gentleman as Matthew Waterhouse is now. Which is available? I shouldn't have used him in the snog. And so I'm afraid I'd have to avoid Tegan. At least certainly her, um, her performance in Lagopolis. Which is always. So yeah, I would, um, Snuggadrick, Marinessa, and avoid Tegan. Nathan, here's your song, Mario Void. So long? Countess Scalione. and Alexa. So I would definitely marry Countess Scarlione because I would be able to get away with absolute... So you're definitely marrying her. I would obviously. Oh, no, I feel there's no good choice because I love Alexa, but I feel like saying that I would snorgle Alexa is terribly disrespectful and it would be like, you know, snogging an elderly relative. So I'll have to snog so on and avoid legs. Brendan's X would probably be different in this instance. Okay, Richard? Rex, does this go? This is his favourite segment. Amelia Ducart. Oh, wow. Amelia Rumford or Auntie Vanessa. Fabulous. Fonda's one is of sausage sandwiches. limits the coast. So we have Professor Romford. We have nearly a ducket. Richard? Auntie Vanessa. Oh, it's being too close to home, is that Auntie Vanessa, I think not even her driving skills would save me and I still don't have a license. So I'd have to sort of cross, well, maybe she could take me on a drive. But then again, do cars got something of worth in her boot, hasn't she? So I'd probably be thinking, um, I definitely would have to be snogging, um, Professor Romford because she's got that lovely sausage breath. And it would have to be marrying, um, uh, Amelia Ducar because she's just got really, really nice wheels. And, um, it well, even though it's nicked and it would have to be avoiding Auntie Vanessa because, you know, she, well, she doesn't provide very much, does she these days? There's not a lot of bird to the pound. No. Thank you. What's your greatest surprise? I think it's the hinge good thing. Yeah, you kept saying that during the podcast too. We saw this as the Golden Gate to Glory and yet... It was often not that great. The representation of women was really poor. It was torture porn. And it was totally quantified. And and also, when we did the when we did the perch, we retrospective, and like I named my top 3 stories, they were all Robert Holmes stories. And I just think, you know, he's a spectacular, he was a great TV writer. But giving him the reins, that's the other thing, the discovery that that he's kind of cynical, sadistic, actually. Yeah, it's a sadistic humour that he has. And sort of misanthropic and stuff. Yeah. And yet we blame so hard for that. Yeah, but he's not talented though. I was going to say not witty. Okay, let's just let's just go for the... This is going to be what to keep. Richard Brendan, your greatest surprise? Even honing in further than that. In particular, season 13 just isn't that good. It's what it's what you say, Richard, about the colour Diana Riggs season. It's like if you watch more than one together, it's actually just the same bloody story every week. Individually, chocolate's in a box, but altogether you feel sick. Yeah, this, you know, this ancient evil, this ancient unknowable dawn of time. Usually, you know, you can't communicate with them because their brain works on a different level. Season 12 is great. season 14 is great. But season 13, which is why everyone holds up as, you know, this is this is the amazing Doctor Who. You know, I think it's the opposite problem of season 18 where, you know, season 18, there's nothing really in it for the younger child. Season 13, when a lot of younger children were watching and that forms the impression on their mind of what Doctor Who is. But looking at it with an adult mind, when you're not just looking at the visuals and the and the repartee and the monsters, when you're looking at the plot and kind of going, oh, well, okay Morbius slash Eldrad slash crinoid has been buried for 1000000s of years and la-da-da-da. Yeah, it's just kind of, oh, it's like actually this goal, there never was a golden age, Mike. That's really true. Which, oh, how good Tom is. Because again, I had that received opinion that he waned and he phoned it in and blah, blah. He just blustered his way through. No, he doesn't. There's something surprising and he'll go, wow, wow, boom, boom foghorn. Shottle something. Look, horror fang rock. Again, it's something that I thought, yeah, it's great. I have a kind of mood. There's subtleties and there's layers. The simpler the story for Tom. The more he puts into it. And we know what a monster he was to other people in the cast as some people could handle him well, the juxtaposition between how he treated Louise, which was actually Louise's reaction, and how he treated Mary, which was actually Mary's reaction, comes down to that alternate, that a bully is the most vulnerable person in the room. Tom was a bully. But only because he was looking to have his handheld and have guidance and have a maternal figure look after him. If you've read his biog, have you ever thought of autobiography who is Tom Baker? I don't believe. It was ghosted a bit. But what I get from that is that, you know, he, like many men, he wanted a woman to look after him. And when they weren't as strong or they didn't meet him, he was savage when Lala comes along and it is a force of nature and equal and opposite. But of course they clash, but he ends up marrying her. Well, Louise Jameson does say that her relationship with Tom was pretty much fine when she said to him, you are not being fair, you are not treating me fairly, I am not the cause of your problems. And therefore you shouldn't take it out on me. And, you know, after that, she's like, you know, the relationship wasn't perfect, but we worked well together and now we're great friends. So yeah, I think there might be something in that, that he's he's looking for someone to rise to him. I guess on that note, someone to rise to him, is there any character that you think could have come aboard the TARDIS during his time that could have risen? Obviously. I'm going from... Don't hold your breath because not carrying out noise coming up. I'm thinking about it, right? Oh, who is? This table is rising like a séance. He's never far from my class. It's deference to the question. Is there a character that could have come aboard the TARDIS that you would have liked to have seen perhaps from a story that could have been a longer term? Pilot Toose. Isn't that amazing to say that because mine just to throw in his DA before? Seriously, I really wanted that in there. And can you imagine dressing him up in a hat and stuff and like you'll pass and trying to walk through Paris and everyone just thinks it was a really late party and he hasn't changed yet? Now, wouldn't that have been interesting? It was Bilal for me with the Pertwear era. Yeah. And it's, I work with someone called Balal. doesn't listen to this okay. Yeah, I really do this. And yeah, and this one and it's, yeah, that story. It's the signal stories. And the reason the signal story is these extraordinary subtle characters, the panellists say, and I mean, come on. But yeah, of course. Chris Boucher writes great characters. Look at Fendal with Mark Tyler and Matt. Oh, thank you. The Ransom. I know what... I know. Nathan Zainz is going to be, it's all the mothers. Adam Colby. Can we just... Oh, okay. Can we just can we just have an Adam Colby series where he inexquivocably gets his shirt ripped off? It's called the Colby's. for a few seasons. You got to keep watching. He doesn't turn up till towards the end. So just keep watching them with stuff. Sorry, Nathan. I'm kind of on Amelia Rumford. Yeah, I love Tom and Amelia. Yeah, when they when they go to the DeFreeze mansion. I think she's and you would see something different from Tom. Can I change mine now? I mean, do you do come? I can have more. Yeah, I agree. No, and Tom wanted an older woman companion. since we're using the O word. So frequently in this podcast. So she gets to be the kind of dotty Zainie when he gets here. And that would, and that's the whole thing with his very submissive, dominant thing. It all gets a bit spooky SM with Tom. I think that, you know, clever people do that. But yes, if he'd actually had him at, well, a woman who was old enough to be his mother in the park. We would have seen a very different Tom. We've never had that in the show, apart from some Vivon Smythe and being finished. is my all-time favourite companion in the audios. Vail Maggie. Yeah, we lost her last year. If I might ask a question, Todd, which won't be on your list, I promise. A few weeks ago, of course, we got our 1st look at Bill. Yes, the new companion. The new companion. It's a resurrected Billy in a... Now, the thing with Bill is like, I'm not going to talk about the completely outrageous objections that people are raising. But one objection that someone raised was, oh, yeah, it's another girl in her 20s, you know. That's massive objection. Now, the thing is, any other time I would have that ejection, but I do believe that having a companion actress closer to Peter Capaldi's age. would be a mistake just because I like the tension of Peter Capaldi being an older doctor and having a younger companion. I would... Yeah, I would have loved. I would have loved to see. I would have loved to see Matt Smith, you know, 30 or whatever he was at the time. having a female companion in her 50s or 60s. You know, I would have loved to see about women would agree with you on that. But don't we don't we have... What's her name? Kate Stewart? Olivia Coleman. No, no, no, no, the one that keeps the bit of a song. Isn't she old? Well, in a way, it's over 30 years old for Brendan. Look, the thing is, I think Alex Kingston is only in her 40s and I object... Oh, okay. that's how I see her. But that I try not to buy into the Hollywood thing of labelling women over 35 as older because there's been a run of movies recently where you've had young male protagonists in their early 20s and their mothers being played by women in their 30s. Correct. You know? And I mean, I know I'm saying an older actress here being in their 50s or 60s. But, you know, when you think about Helen Mirren is 70, Joanna Lumley is 69 now. I think she's 70 today. 17th day. Happy birthday, Joanna. She's Canon. Yeah, I think I think if you're going to have an older companion certainly we just mentioned Evelyn Smythe, wonderfully played by the late Maggie Stables. The doctor, of course, in that, obviously, Colin was closer to her age in real life, but the doctor in that is not outwardly closer to her age. Now, the doctor, you've already got this tension of he's much older than he looks, but at the same time he acts quite often in a very childish way, you know, as Tom says, at no point, there's no point in being grown up, if you can't be childish, sometimes, to then have an older companion figure. being the voice of reason, but also with a bit of right sense of humour. I think I think would be great. And I do hope we see it perhaps with the next doctor if they go younger than Capaldi. But yeah, I liked I liked Bill scene. Todd, you were saying earlier that you didn't think much of the script, but she performed it very well. I think I'd have to agree there. You know, it was trademark Moffatt witticisms. But she was reading them in a fresh way. She's very talented. Like she can speak several languages and sing and do all sorts of things. So hopefully they'll bring something into the program with that sort of thing. Pearl Mackey. Her name was just escaping me. Pearl Mackey is the name of the actress. Excellent. All right, well, we've talked about like a character who you think could have travelled with a doctor. Is there any character who you would have liked to see survive a story that was killed off? It's an interesting and hard one, isn't it? Well, I do have one. Adelaide. Yeah, really? Simply because we get that rather wonderful scene where, you know she's she's whimpering and moaning about. I should have listened to Mrs. Nevercott, and we get this great moment from Leila, where Leila says, you know, there are better ways than science, and Adelaide kind of starts to consider that. And so we have some character. We have some character growth for Adelaide, and we have some character growth for Leila, and Leila is helping someone, and I really think it's undermined by the fact that Adelaide dies. I would have liked to seen both Adelaide and Vince survive that story, but I think the impact of the story is the fact that everybody does that. Yeah, yeah. Scorbi is another one who I would have liked to have seen possibly survive, just the fact that the villains don't always survive, but sometimes it's nice. Like, as horrible as he was, he was, I don't know, there was some humanity to me. He was really period. He was straight out of the Sweeney and straight up. Yeah, and he would have been great to have him, like they did with Lytton, I think, more successfully crop up in a story later on. It would have been fun. Those scenes where he teams up with Sarah are really fun. They are fun. Yeah, great chemistry. Monsters. Is there any monster that you'd like back that you think worked pretty well and we have never seen back in the series? Oh, well, I should probably jump in because I didn't get to throw my last one. Oh, I have one as well. And it actually goes for this one as well. I've liked Broton to survive, and I've also liked Nider. And they should have had their own spinoff. don't care. And yes, it would have been lovely. I think they should come back every time. I just think it's so obvious. I don't know why they didn't ever see it. You still with us? Peter Miles would definitely be agreeing with that. In Proton? Yeah. No, I just thought he was a great character as we covered. He's so camp. Yeah, I was really disappointed. He never came back until very recently and it wasn't him. Oh, anyway, I'm just being silly and flip. But, yeah, it's sort of a shame. Scorbio principle, when they're so terrifically great. It's really a shame to let them go. And it actually shows you can get too much of a good thing because Davros probably should never have come back. I wanted to keep Lexa alive. No, yeah. As we said, because the death was so poorly done, and just because she was so charming as a character. I think that that was a great shame. Happy to name Jackie Hill every single episode of the podcast. Yeah, and she's my answer, the one who should have gone on board the Tartars as well. Could have had... Wouldn't that have been awesome? Oh, I could just see Romana and she just doing each other's. Each other's extensions. Oh, God. Imagine what Jackie Hill would have done to Matthew Waterhouse. She probably would have been very nice to him. Actually that's true. She would have been patient and interesting. Oh, damn, I know. missed opportunities, you know? He could have used that too. in that 1st year. does sound like... You know, just imagine if Lala Ward walked off the set when she met Matthew Waterhouse and they could just could have had Jackie Hill wander in and say, decided to change again. She looked fabulous. Hi, doctor, I'm Romana. Wow. Oh, my. Right. In terms of one off monsters, I'd like to see you come back. The ones that spring immediately to mind. I don't actually want them back, but they have come back anyway and the audience is the crawls. I mean, who cares? Oh, they'd come back in the audios, but I'd love to see them on telly. You kind of do. What, the craft? No, the robots. Ah, the robots, the autonomous robots of dance. The box and the super box and the dummy. Why do we never get to see them again? They're so unfair. Caldor City. Caldor City are great. There's a wonderful big finish audio called Robophobia, which features some friend of the podcast, Toby Hado. But yeah, I'd really like to see... I'd really like to see them again. Tythonians. obviously. I'm just trying to think. It's like, uh, Trunk and Ner Trunk and's dead. The knife on, obviously. No, that's the thing. Is Tracandeed. Can we just, that, that, it's the whole thing of, we saw the earth die in the arc, and yet we still go to the earth, don't we? Yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We could have trunk. Oh, you're giving me a glimmer of hope. It's a time travelling show. You know, I'm just thinking, big finish, have brought back a lot of elements from Tom's era. And when they didn't have Tom, you know, they brought back Crumbs and they brought back the Nibel. Anyway, guys, in fact, one of the features of this era is that it doesn't do returning monsters all that much. So you've got like the Santarans come back. The Dialects come back, the cybermen come back. I mean, they don't come back twice in Tom's year, but they're old monsters that return. And part of that was the setup of Lance trying to kind of ease the transition a bit. But, you know, the show doesn't do that. It does fresh new monsters. It doesn't do what the show is going to start doing, which is just have a stable of monsters that it just hauls out for a quick run round. They do start to do. Yes. Far too much, yes. Richard, have you got any? Apart from broken reminder? Well, is there anyone else? Do you call them monsters? Well, that's how you treat one, isn't it? I've heard this about Peter Miles. I actually do think the more amorphous and alien the character maybe it's less realised and we do joke about erato, blah, blah blah. But the concept, I really do like high concept characters. We don't see enough of them. Okay, maybe not erato, but there are other ones. I just really wish we'd had more of Scaroff. I just, I just want Scarab, really, in the disco suit. You can't have enough Julian Glover, can you? It's a great looking character, isn't it? Everything's great. Is he your favourite guest artist? Oh, that's so hard to say. I actually think, no, I think for so many reasons, and the fact that I'm listened around the hall, every bloody week of my life Harrison Chase is probably my alternate favourite villain slash guest. Nathan, he's your all-time favourite. I think I do have to go for Julian Glover. He's so entertaining. He's just terrific and him and Tom are really terrific together. And, you know, I just think that story, which is spoiler alert, for perhaps another question. my favourite Tom's story. Much of that is down to him. Brendan? Beatrix Lehman. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Amelia Rumford. And it's what I think you said earlier, Richard, or was it your name? She bounces so well off Tom. But not only does she bounce so well off Tom, she bounces really well off Mary and she bounces off canine. She pretty much takes over the whole show. to see that, actually having visions of trampoline. Richard's tracing her trajectory through the air. Then maybe she really does need to put a bra on for that last scene. Oh, dear. I was hoping not to see that again. When you have these great guest stars, usually they'll they'll sort of in the script, they'll latch on to one character. So it's sort of in season 15. Most of the guest cast, they're actually reacting and acting with Louise Jameson and Tom's off staring into the middle distance because he doesn't want to look at anyone in the face. Beatrix Lehman breezes into the show and it's like, no, you're all going to pay attention to me. And quite right too, because she's fabulous. So yeah, it has to be Patrick Sleeman for me. With Susan Engle as a close second. As the best rom-com Lesbo episode. I had in Doctor Who, if in fact, the only one until Paradise Towers, yeah. Sausage sandwiches. Yes, those sausage sandwiches. brilliant. I don't know. I mean, you've all mentioned characters that I really like in terms of guest performances. Harrison Chase does just jump out of you. I love Pilot 2s. I just I've always loved Pamela Salem, and of course, Beatrix. In terms of monsters, I'd love to have a rematch with the crinoids. Be beautiful. And I'd also like to see the Magara come back. And I'd also like the ogre at the same time, but, you know, just so you can see. But if they bring them out, they have to do different things. I want to see the hungry, actually being able to livitate, like, to 2nd story buildings and stuff. Yeah, yeah. And criminalids been able to shoot little seeds at people that if they open their mousecake, they suddenly swallow it and then that's the way they get infected. You just give me an acid flashback to a comic from 1974, TV comic just quickly, did a take on that with Sarah and Tom, and it was... Does anyone remember this? They were the daffodils. They were yellow daffodils. It was definitely a take on the autons, but they spat seeds into people's faces. Deck flower. Yes. I really, I had the original editions. I haven't seen it since the day. It was called Death Flower. and there was lots of Tom and Bessie with Sarah. It was all, but the drawings were robot. The drawings were based on the photos from robots. So that might have been it. There's one in a battlefield with a Spitfire and the TARDIS is on its side. It's the 1st time you ever see Sarah trying to climb around and tripping over the round or something. That it. Oh my god, that's it. And I had this in 7576. Oh, yeah, yeah, it's based on robots. So there he does say Sarah. Oh, Veg Pro. You know what? It actually wasn't that bad. Those drawings are not too far for the era when you saw how bad they... absolutely is. That might be John Canning. Yeah, that's drunk. Yeah. Yeah, but it's like him from the front of a Doctor Who monster boy. That's what John Canning did all the time. Fingering himself with his characters. That's it. There, there, there. which was an ambassador of death, but at the time we didn't know. Look, Brendan, this is what it was really good. So it is out there and you can see it. Oh my god, she's wearing Liz's hat from the ambassadors of death. Oh, no, it's supposed to be from Robots. I know, I know, right? You're just being naughty. Yes, I am. I'll start with Brendan. Your top three. Tom Baker stories. Is that right? Yep. Okay, well, I'll start from three. Warriors Gate. I just think that the choice. the visuals are so beautiful and the script and the concept and Rawvik is terrifying. But then you've got Aldo and Royce who are hilarious. Yeah, it's it's a science fiction Samuel Beckett play with lions and it's just wonderful. Number 2 is a robot to Death. As Stephen Moffatt says, is a whodunit, its status is seriously compromised by the title, but... A murder mystery thrives on the quality of its fodder, basically. You have to care reasonably about the incidental characters who get murdered. horribly, horribly murdered. And the thing is, you do in this one. I mean, even the early characters like Chub, that's bodist. Even the characters who were killed early on, like Charm and Cast they get character moments, you know, and we get this impression that these people have known each other for a while. Which I don't think we get as much in, say, the next nearest comparison, which is horror of Thang Rock. Yeah, and both were written in a relatively short time frame. I love horror film. Chris Boucher was asked to write robots of death very quickly after face of evil. That's not, is there lots of Bobsy Holmes innocent, though? It is quite boring. Is he home? I feel I'm feeling it. But at the same time, Chris Boucher has a real pawn chant for creating interesting characters. Except when he writes BBC book. That's true. He's much better with script.s. If you're ever stuck in a jungle and you haven't got any lavatory paper. Chris Boucher's ovaries then. with you. God, they were awful. Was it last man standing? Last man standing. God, it's horrible. On the other hand, it is, but I absorb it. Career wise, yes, yes. And my number one, for reasons I have stated before and will state constantly, again, it's the Androids of Tara. It's it's lovely. It's summery. It's light, it's heroic. It's got a great villain. It's a beautiful moment of Jackie Hill guest starring as time would best. I never knew that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They kept it. She wanted to come back, but, you know. That's Deborah Watley. It's got it's got that beautiful, that beautiful moment and it's just all in the performance and it's the 1st time Romana looks at the doctor in awe and respect when he's... It doesn't last. You're right. No, she does. Yeah, but when he is having the sword fight with Grendel and you get that beautiful shot of Romana where she suddenly goes, he actually knows what he's doing. And it's a great story from Mary Tam, not just because she gets to play multiple roles, but we've had this very aloof character who's not concerned with human life and all of a sudden she has to tend to someone who's injured. Was she ever not concerned? Well, not a sorry, not not cold in cats. Not cold not cold and callous about human life, but, you know, just sort of walks through the battlefield and doesn't really comment on the thing unless unless it's, you know, something planet wide such as Xanac. But then you get the androids of Tara, where, you know, she's got this one individual who's ill and she's caring for him. And when she has an opportunity to escape, she says, I'm not leaving without you. And that then leads to, in the Armageddon factor, we get that great moment where she shouts at the doctor that they're horrible and they're murderers and how can they do this? you know, which it's a pretty terrible story. But that scene. Where, yeah, and that, for me, starts in the Androids of Tara. and it's just a beautiful Disney movie done. Is there any story you would avoid? Oh. Between the power of Croll and Underworld. Okay. I think I think and I think it has to be the power of Kroll. I find underworld more entertaining. Yeah, my topic is... Go for Power of Kroll. Your topic is... It isn't, but that's crazy talk. Well, no, no, I think City of Death is definitely the top. I think it's Whitty. It's really fun. It's, you know, Tom and Lala are wonderful in it. It has a great villain, lots of wonderful location stuff. It's a clever script. So I think that that's definitely my favourite. But if I had to pick three. I think, you know, if you ask me next week, I'm sure that I would pick different ones. I really want to pick something from season 16 because it's so good. I'm kind of a bit sold on Androids Atara, actually, which is great. But I mean, I like rebus operation as well. I don't enjoy it quite as much. I think it's a really strong story. Great story, great atmosphere, great characters. Yeah, the sets are good, the characters are good. I think that's terrific. I've always had a massive soft spot for the sun makers. I'm picking Bob Holmes stories again. They're well written. Yeah. The Sunmakers is great. Like, I think it's really enjoyable. It's the 1st it's the most explicit one where the doctor appears and tears down a repressive government maybe since the savages, you know? So I like that a lot. I'm like horror fan rock a lot. Robots of death is really good. Is there anything that you would avoid? Yeah, I think underworld has absolutely no redeeming features at all. It's not entertaining in any way. It's, you know, does worse things that the show had done before. And is there another story that's not in your top lot that you think is underrated by the table fans? No, I think Leisure Hime is underrated by me. Why didn't I put that in my top? Yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing that I think is unjustly maligned, really Richard. It's interesting. All those ones, my immediate go to as well, but then I think, what is it that I really take from it or what really compelled me at the time, and that is really what we still love about it, and it's the atmosphere, and then that is brought about by the, as you were just saying, all of you, the characters, the script, the direction that are kindly producer, you know, in a good mood. But arc in space hasn't been name checked yet. And I really love it for, again, I got to the 2nd week in a row. I got to stomp around the set of the new alien covenant movie last week because we've got friends who were working on it. And I was still getting moments of arc in space with what they're building there. Spoiler alert. I can't tell you anything, but you go and see it because you'll see. Yeah, actually, this is reminding me of, because that imbued and really Scott's admitted it, and really Scott was there directing. He's still, it's that is still so strong in SF and popular culture now. So thank you to that. And Genesis of the Daleks, although we sort of go, oh, you know it's such a cliche, all the rest of it. It's really scary. And when it has moments of humour, it's really funny and it's got Nagap. So what's not to love? So yeah, those, those, I think, would be, apart from ones, you go you say yes, because they're lovely, fluffy, marshmallowy, ice creamy things like Tara, but the ones that have really affected the wider media world of, not just of television, but films for those stories. And is there anything that you would avoid? Other than the ones that you've already said. Gosh, again, as a as a teenager, season 18 was my favourite. We quickly moved on to just loving the stylishness of it. State of decay. I absolutely adore it. Um, But I can't think of anything in that that I really hated. That's probably the reason why it's strong. There's plenty in season 15. I actually find invasion of time terrific to watch, but for what they did to Louise, what they did to the character of Lita. I was so. It wasn't just disappointed. I actually felt betrayed by that ending and I still do. So I still think it's a good story, but that last that sequence is awful. Well, you've mentioned all these stories, you know, arc in space robots of death. I find it so hard, like City of Death, terror the zygons, which I really, really love. Jones of Blood is one of my all-time favourites. The horror of frame rock is something that really surprised me this time round. Like I've not really liked it as much as I did. Seeds of Doom, like they're all there. Like, I mean, trying to pick one of those stories. I am finding almost impossible. I guess flip a coin today. I going to go with stones of blood. I would never I would disagree, yeah. And I love it. In terms of other, yes, I will avoid anything written by Bob Baker and Dave Martin, but in particular underworld. I think the rebus operation is a story that is undervalued by fandom. It's something every time I watch it, I go, uh-huh. And overrated by fandom is definitely the deadly assassin, and I'll say nothing more about that. Yeah, it's pretty deadly to slog through, isn't it? Although again, great moments. Bob Holmes again. Sometimes a liability, though. So let's do some strong marrying a boy before we get on to writers and script editors. Richard, Strong, Marion V. Oh, God. Nider, Broton, Harrison Chase. Well, sorry, but I'm actually seeing something that's not fit for general viewing right now. I'm really How can you choose? That's just a pizza of deliciousness right there, isn't it? I just want to start fondling the marinara and launching the garrison. And yeah, I couldn't really do that any bluer, could I? Blue cheese topping. Okay, so who would you hang with? I think Broton would actually end up being the most fun simply because he's the most diverse. And if you feel bored with him one day, well, he can be someone else the next. So, yeah, you have to marry Broton. I don't think I'd snog Nyder because there is that, there are those teeth. Um, those yellow tombs, tombsy teeth of doom. Um, so maybe I have to avoid neither, and the last one was... Harrison Chase. Well, obviously. Oh, Harrison, say something. can you imagine the fun? And you know, he'd launch into a Kenneth Williams, just like, nah it would be fantastic. I think he'd be quite supple too. He does a lot of yoga and sitting cross-legged. I think he'd be, you know, be able to swing from a vine with alacrity. Great. Brendan. Zastor, the keeper of Tracan or Engen? Oh, God. Well, you said you liked older me. Yeah, fair fine. We're all taking a bit of a thing of the old world. We all actually consider ourselves to be quite young here at the table. So, yes. Well, to be fair, Rod is older than all of you. Glad he's not listening. Maybe. No, no, no. I'm fine with those. I'm fine with those three, really. Okay. Let's consider this. Definitely avoid Zaster. Oh, he's married for eternity. He can see that the universe that binds you and that could be fun. Come on, we're trying to take you on a guided tour. That's what I'm thinking. If we're talking about the Dennis Carey keeper of drama. Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah, that could be the Luvik keeper. Okay, well, you know what? You've only got 24 hours. That's the thing. If it's the Dennis carrykeeper, drunken. It's definitely married because I have all this unlimited power and he's dead soon. Oh, Cassio, get you. And and so, you know, Snogangen. Yeah, so, okay, Snogengen, marry the keeper. Even if it's the Lubik keeper, Lubik's kind of fun. He's cute. He looks a bit like your dad, actually. With that beard, yeah. It looks a bit like John Leeson as well. And yeah, avoid... Avoid disaster. Okay, very good. I'm now going to do my own because you know, I just want to do that. So, um, I've got the Caliak, Sarah Diplos, or Vivian Faye. So I'm going to avoid the Caliak because she likes to blood sacrifice people. Um, I think to Sarah Diplos would be good to um, uh, Snog. And I'm going to need to breast silver, couldn't he? No, and I'm going to marry Vivian Faye for her sausage sandwiches. You know what happens to our husbands. Anyway, what's Nathan's? Robert Holmes, Anthony Reed or Douglas Adams? Ooh. Wow. Wow. Anthony Reed has a, well, had a Luvic beard as well. So... I think I'm going to avoid Anthony Reid. I think he's probably the weakest out of those 3 as a script editor, and I just can't respect someone who's very good indeed at their job. Don't you know Android? But I think I will... I think I'll marry Douglas Adams. Oh, yeah, just for the parties. Oh, yeah. endlessly entertaining. That's right. I'd be hanging out with Tom and Richard Dawkins and Lala and all of these clever people. Yeah, no, I just think he's one of the great comic writers in English of the entire 20th century. We were so lucky to have him on Doctor Who, you know, beyond Lucky but it was just that point in his career. Marrying him, but I will be sneaking off to see Robert Holmes on the side every so often. Just for the pipe. That leads us into, obviously, discussion about these 3 scripted editors from the 1970s. I'm gonna put bid me aside for the moment being 80s, and I think we'll have a bigger discussion. And we talked about him a lot in the last few podcasts. But these 3 script editors. What are our thoughts about their legacy on the show and what they brought to the table? I think Holmes was an absolute genius. He had a talent for creating worlds, he had, you know, he did biting satire, he was withy, his groups are hilarious. And he has a sort of sound idea of what is entertaining. But he has a cynicism and I think misogyny, which makes him flawed. So the show would be poorer without him a lot poorer. Same with Blake 7. you know what I mean? Like Lake 7 is often not great, but the Holmes episodes are always just reliably, really incredibly good. But as a script editor. Yeah, so as a script editor, he is responsible for, I think largely responsible for Hingcliffe's reputation, like the Hingcliffe Euras reputation, as a run of really good stories. You know, We talk about the budget and stuff and we say that, you know, Williams suffered from budgetary problems. But he also suffered from scripting problems, and there are some terrible scripts under Williams's watch, and there are no, I don't think there are any really comparably terrible scripts under homes. There is that dichotomy or duality between the two, which when he masters it, it's extraordinary. There's nothing like a last minute effort, we've said before, but really putting a lot of adrenaline in and getting something quite extraordinary out of it, but you can't keep that up. No, no. Yeah, Robert Holmes... Every year, he's on the show. A script falls through and he has to do the replacement. And they're often regarded incredibly highly. So, and right, this is the arc in space, Pyramids of Mars, Talons of Wang Chang, you know, were all scripts meant to be written by other writers. In some cases completely written. The scripts were done and deemed unsuitable. Maybe it would have been nice for Anthony Reed at that time to do that on, say, Armageddon factor. And then you get Douglas Adams, who is just magnificent. And the show is suddenly incredibly imaginative and witty. At the same time, it's dealing with a huge budget crisis and everything looks terrible, but sounds wonderful, you know? Yeah, it's a weird era of extremes when it's least imaginative scripts where perhaps when it had the greatest support from the series. But then when they started getting more imaginative scripts, the BBC were just kind of going, oh, you know, we'll just cut Doctor Who's budget and they'll make it work somehow. Uh, in terms of quality, look, They're ooh. They're all good writers and they're all good at their jobs. And the weird, weird thing about the Hinchcliffe Homes era is, you know, we counted there were so few roles for women. I think we counted 5 speaking women who weren't Sarah across the 3 years, but at the same time, those characters are Vira and Betan and... And Miss Winters and twos. And... Winters again. And Amelia Ducar, you know. And the Ghoul. I can all see that one. Yeah, it's kind of weird that they didn't want that many women around, but when they had women, they wrote them really interesting characters. It's also the 70s. You watch anything else at the time on television. how it was. Yeah, it seemed to be this thing of, and we have a woman and we'll have to make her interesting, so boys will watch her. Yeah, which is that's slightly ugly. Whereas Graham Williams had a lot better roles for women, and we get Lady Adrasta, and we get Countess Scarlioni and Claire Keatley um, in, in Shada. We get Princess Astra. We get, um, but is this coming from Williams, is it coming from Anthony Reid and Douglas Adams, as script editors? Well, That's a good point. Yeah, are we, are we getting, am I getting more into the, the um... Do so side of things now. I suppose I am. I mean, I think that's the strength of Adams and Anthony Reid, is that they're willing to have women in all these roles and allowing their writers to do that, you know? It's still not that great, though. Do you know what I mean? It is still overwhelmingly man, isn't it? Like, I thought there was a big arctic, but it's not a massive... And when they're there, apart from a dresser. They're all secondary characters or supports. But, you know, when you look at the other sci-fi being made around the same time, when you look at Battlestar Galactica, when you look at Buck Rogers, I wasn't even thinking of the American ones it was the same in British television, apart from Penelope Keith everyone else was subservient. Yeah. Whereas, you know, Doctor Who... And certainly it's not every single story, but you do get Amelia Dukara, Amelia Rumford, and Vivian Fay, Princess Astra, you know it's certainly by no means cursing. You've done that one, haven't you? Yes. Yes, that's... Female representation gets better across Tom's era. Yeah. than where it felt. I mean, Tom gets better across his era. You might say not. No, no, I think I'd agree with you there. I think I'd agree with you. I love the different tones. I think the material in the Graham Williams era, for which Robert Holmes is responsible for the beginning, but you know, you get the difference in tone when Anthony Reid comes in. Tom reacts very interestingly to the change in tone. know, whereas in season 18, he fights the change in tone. With Graham Williams, and he did fight with Graham Williams, but He... I get that at that time that was more about him going, yeah, but what are we doing? You know, I'm excited, but I want to know what you want me to do. And you see a marked change and I think I think he actually has a lot more fun as challenging as those 3 years with Graham Williams R in terms of budgets and everything. He seems to be having more fun than he was with Philip Hingcliff. And Robert Holmes. I'm not sure if I really answer the question because I want to produce this. No, no, no, that's cool. That's cool. I mean, do we want to throw the final scripted into the mix? and there's a comparison to the others. I know that it's fair to do so. I'd rather be a good need to say would end his I think so too age. It's a different age. Yeah. I'll say one thing in that he had a clear vision. He set out to achieve it. And it's laid the groundwork for what will start talking about in 2 weeks. So we'll see how that goes. All right, before we wrap up. I just want to ask, you know, we're about to go into Davison and Davidson years as we sit here now before we get into that. What is your current or held opinion of Davison, the Davis, heading into Davison, heading into Davis. Okay, I'll say something a bit cryptic here. Before I started rewatching Davison for the podcast, I found his doctor boring. Bland, dong, and uninteresting. Dong dong. All I will say right now is having watched him again for the podcast. My opinion has changed. Ooh, subtly, what is worse? Richard, what are you looking forward to? I don't know that I coined the term. I probably got it off a labelling ad, but I called him vanilla beige. in the 80s. It actually, and it wasn't just the costume. I found him very bland, but I watched the 1st just through the 1st season of 19, I'd have to say, not to preempt, but half of them had to come out of their plastic wrappers. It's better than I remember. But for different reasons. But I'm not getting the same rush of emotions. certainly that I got watching Tom and I thought that was just being a young person. But I've got a lot of those again watching as a relatively young adult. Like he said, without any sense of irony. I think, I think there's a problem with Davison, and it is that we're picking someone to contrast with Tom. I want someone to be different from Tom. And so the way that they're going to make him different is instead of making him this central figure that we all focus on and are really entertained to watch, he becomes part of a pretty gruesome ensemble. And so he's a good actor. Probably. Um, but he's timied, yeah. Yeah, well, he's not given any direction as well. You know, the doctorate still has to be the central character. Now, he has to be the central character, but they don't really have any idea of what they want him to be like or what they really want him to do. And it is that thing that someone said at the end of the last episode where he sits up and kind of looks around like a deer in the headlines because he doesn't know what to do next. And you do get the impression that no one has actually told him what they want of him. There's just a lot of nervous cows in the room, in the field backing off slowly, because they know what he did on all creatures great and small. I wonder if the audience is feeling any of the same trepidation. It's interesting for myself. I never liked him as a kid. I gave him a chance in the 1st few stories, I think. I was struggling with tour leading. I didn't engage with many of the stories. which I often felt let down by. Yeah, and certainly by the end of it, I just wanted him gone. Yeah. If you had to come over to my place to watch the book 2 story, I will never, ever, ever choose a Peter Davidson. He's like the cur twin for you, Nathan. Oh, I love Perty. He's the Nadir. He's got a lot of ironing to do. Before what, this journey? No, he absolutely did. Doctor Who. Is that interesting? So I guess for me, I fell out of love with Doctor Who. And, um, you know, I was watching it, but I didn't, it was more out of habit. And I guess the thing is this. As I was saying, I never go. I never, ever go and pick a Davidson, only Davidson I'll ever chooses the 5 doctors. So I guess in this journey I want, part of me wants to discover and I suspect that I will, that he is a good actor, and it's possibly what's going on around him, that is what I don't particularly like. But I'm hoping that there are stories that I will like a lot more. I mean, you have to come from. I'm coming from the base that Kindle was my most hated Dr. 2 story of all time, and it's a sequel. It sequel was even I loathed it even more. I like to even less than Kindle. So for me... Well, you get that story, you know? I know. And that season, that season, I mean, is one of for many years has been one of my least favourite seasons, season 20, I believe I'm going to be on four. So I'm actually looking forward to finding good things. in amongst whatever is. And I think Peter is going to be one of them. Wow. I adore season 20. I almost stopped. I almost quit the podcast. No, no, no. I watched it now. I almost didn't get through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, don't... Don't let James hear you say that. It'll be after your job. That brings us to the end of our Tom Baker retrospective dealers. No, no, no. We'll be back next week with our commentary on K9 and Company. K9? I think I need to go and pick up a phone and walk out the door at the same time. Until next week, you can find us online at flightsthroughentirety com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FDE podcast on Twitter. Don't forget, Doctor Who in 10 seconds over on YouTube, and our bond finger commentaries where we've just started the Roger Moore era with Live and Let Die on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter. Until next week, May none of your talking vegetables scupper your choice for companion. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Good, everyone. That was Flight Your Entirety with Todd Bealby, Nathan Bottomley Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode, it's all about him, was recorded on May 1st, 2016. The next episode will be released on June 5th. How can one sum up Tom Baker's doctor in one sentence? He was a beautiful doctor, probably. You hear me? Uh, Ken, hold on. Can anyone fear me? Sorry, let's go. It's part of the retrospective. You know, I work with someone this tall who's called Balal, and it's a man. He really is that tall. It works out a lot. He's very cute if you like actual figures and he's got a Middle East. Oh, that's right. I forgot Alfie. And like socks.. Are you eating Brendan socks, mate. And he's got big eyes. I can't stop.