Cardboard and Wooden

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety the only Doctor Who podcast who would like to fly away from trouble, as would a politician's expense account. I'm Brendan. I'm Nathan. I'm Todd, and we're going in for a spot of light, green zone blowflies and torture, in vengeance on Tharos. So this is a story that critiques us for watching it, isn't it? And we've had this before. Do you remember Carnival of Monsters, where Katie Manning suggests that we must be terrible people to want to tune in and watch her being chased by monsters. Here the same thing happens. And there's something a little bit brilliant about giving us a substitute audience to identify with. I want to leap in and say, I think this story is terribly overrated, but I do think that one of the best things about it is Arak and Etta. Yes, played by the wonderful Stephen Yardley, previously seen in Genesis of the Daleks as the Muto, who helps Sarah. Oh my goodness, it's Severance. Yeah, it's Sever. He's also the XXY man from the series of the same name. He was in Day of the Triffords. He's great actor. Sheila Reed, of course, classic actress, most familiar to Doctor Who fans as Clara's Gran. I love the fact that they're the goggle box. Of Doctor Who. They are just a joy, Nathan. They are just a joy to watch. And the fact that they recorded all their scenes at the end of the recording blog. So they actually pumped the images through the television. So they were seeing what the other actors are doing for the 1st time and reacting to that. makes it even more glorious. And the whole framing of that within the story works wonderful. And my favourite moment is Cliffhanger to episode one where Colin's dying of thirst, and both of them are thirsty, like they vote. I particularly love when he says, I'm going to go to bed and tells her to vote for him and she threatens to dob him in because it's a homesian kind of world building move. I'm going to be critical of some of Philip Martin's writing choices in this. I don't think this is an overrated story. I do think this is one of the best quality stories of the era. I would agree with that. Yeah, but it's terrible. But I think something Philip Martin does masterfully here, we do have Martin Jarvis occasionally telling us what this culture is like, but we have Eric and Etta actually showing us in their interactions with each other. And because we're discussing them, let's jump to the last scene right now where they realise they're free and they don't know what to do with themselves with nothing on the television. It's weird because it's hopeful and it's funny and it's sad all at the same time that they don't know what to do. And I think ending a Doctor Who episode on a screen full of static is very daring at this type in history. No, I love the ending. I love this. The previous time I watched this, I wasn't that in love with it. But this time watching it in order, I actually liked it even more. My biggest criticism, besides the crap power couple, which we'll come to talk about, for me, is the fact the doctor and pairing are trapped in the TARDIS for too long. 25 minutes. That's right. And of course, Eric Seywood instructs his writers, well, what do we do? Well, we have to then have a bitch scene between them. I actually suspect that that's Eric Saywood writing that scene. Am I right? Is there no way of knowing? But it's a really nasty thing. The one thing that I do like is Perry saying that he keeps burning the dinner and all of that sort of thing, and that's more of that Collins doctor's incompetence at things and getting things wrong and being rather silly and a bit loveable. But I wish we'd kind of seen that rather than just having these giant wodges of unconvincing dialogue. I do feel for them in that they have to act through this. The previous time I watched it, I watched it out of order and I really detested that scene. This time because of what's gone on in the twin dilemma and their bumpy relationship. I got to the point where it was like, okay, enough now. Do I need to see anymore? But then it stopped. Whereas the previous time, right from the beginning, I was just going, oh, please. So, Depending on what mood I'm in, I either go, well, I can live with it or, we've then got the wonderful plot device, that the TARDIS is running out of this special ore, which can only be found on one planet, which you've never heard of before. Last week, didn't we have a special mineral that blew up the cyber control? And 2 weeks before that. Well, sorry, not 2 weeks, but 2 stories before that, we had Spectrox, the most valuable substance in the universe. One of the most valuable substances in the universe. But this one you see had a trademark. Oh, okay. So my biggest criticism for the story is that Tartist stuff. Yeah, yeah. And Colin, why does Colin? He just sort of becomes defeated and slumps into a chair and stuff. And it is, Saywood doesn't want us to have a hero. And he keeps keeping the doctor out of stories. I don't know who's responsible for the structure here, and I'll talk more about it later when we talk about the story's resolution. But he keeps wanting to undermine Collin's doctor all the time. And so have him sort of just petulantly slump in a chair and give up and talk about waiting for death. Like, that's in no way entertaining, and it damages the character and the character keeps being damaged, and I don't think it's Colin's fault. It's something I've criticised a much later story for and that is it's an effort to make the companion look intelligent and resourceful. But rather than just allowing Perry to be intelligent and resourceful, it has to come because the doctor's being stupid. Yeah. But at the same time, watching these stories in order, something I'm picking up on is, The 6 doctors lack of self-esteem. And if you consider the character as being someone who actually lacks self-esteem, the tantrums and the despondency, but also the mania, start to make a little more sense. And you know what? Hand on my heart, I am sure I am reading something that isn't there because Colin has never discussed that. And Colin is very happy to discuss his character and his approach to the character. But if you look at his character as someone who is actually not very sure of themselves, suddenly the patchwork costume makes a lot of sense. He's saying, look at me, look at me, look at me, don't look at me look at me, look at me, don't look at me. And I do think at least Nicola kind of rises to the fact that, you know, she brings in the TARDIS manual and throws it at him and tells him to stop sighing like a steam engine and feeling sorry for yourself. And then Perry's still taking on the role here of his nurse and his carer, you know. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I am saying there is some kind of value there. In terms of the structure of the story, This is, I was referring to last week, an example of where when you break them up into 25 minutes, it's really terrible because the cliffhanger to episode one of this story is them arriving on Varos, the guard shooting at the TARDIS, it's actually, I wonder who's coming towards us. That's actually... Oh yes, you're right. right. The better clip hangout would have been if he'd shot at the TARDIS. And then it had gone to Cliffhanger. Yeah. But of course, it's one of these things where who's ever viewing the tapes just goes, okay, there it is. It doesn't bother to look 25 seconds either side. see this better. The episode 31 is even worse because it's during the transmogrification scene, right? And after they've shot the machine, they've run up to where they're transmogrified and they think it hasn't worked. And you think that's the perfect cliffhanger. You know, you cut to Perry and Areta, and they're still in their beast forms, if you like. The actual cliffhanger is when it has worked and they pick them up off the thing. And Nicola has that beautiful line where she says, I thought I could fly. You know, she delivers it in such a delirious way. It' lovely. The doctor responds, walking all is all that's required for now. What the hell is that? That is the worst cliffhanger in the history of the series. I think that I think that one is because they just walk off the screen, don't they? Yeah, they just start to walk off. That might be that might be the worst one of these fake cliffhangers of the season. But I still hadn't tweaked. As a kid, I still hadn't tweaked that the structure was any different because in the middle, you've got that episode 2 Cliffhanger, which is cut it now, right? Which is just spectacular. It's genius. Yeah, genius. And so you get these cliffhangers that are the actual cliffhangers. And you get one that's a bit dodgy and one that's probably crap. But I just didn't pick up. So can we talk about that episode too, Cliffhanger, because it's the doctor in peril, which is what we expect from a cliffhanger. But instead of seeing it directly, we see it on television. We get the governor doing the director's job and saying, cut it now. We get a laugh from seal that bleeds over the closing credits, and the show dutifully obeys what the governor's direction is and cuts as the governor directs. And so it is that we're watching people watching television with the doctor in it. Just as Eric and Etta are watching the doctor on television as well while we're watching them. And the fact that in this story, and this story, I think, suffers from the problem that it's said in an artificial environment, the punishment dome, where all of the peril is kind of engineered and things. So it's a little bit too easy to come up with these sort of various different kinds of peril. And the peril is not generally very interesting or well realised. So sometimes it's a green light that makes you smile and walk off into the distance. Sometimes it's too green lights that aren't all that perilous after all. Sometimes it's like, I like the house fly. I think it looks really fabulous. But all of those artificial video game perils that you just have to overcome one after another. But you do have to consider that element is of its time, and I'm glad you brought up video games. It's partially cashing in on that. It's also cashing in on the rise of horror movies on video and the fact that rating systems had yet to catch up with the home video market. Getting back to something you said about the green lights, 2 of them. I think that's so brilliant because so often in Doctor Who, we've had alien creatures just expressed by lights, most recently, the gum, you know, who starts off as 2 lights. It subverts because we're expecting it to be this monster and then older viewers are probably like, yeah, it's going to be a crap monster. And the doctor goes, no, it really is just 2 lights on a stick. But you see what it's saying about the show. Do you know what I mean? If Harry and Etta are essentially watching Doctor Who of this period, what they're tuning in for is just a series of kind of unmotivated threats that the doctor defeats or initially succumbs to and then maybe defeats. And increasingly those threats are nasty, and Arak and Etta are you know, they're quite sweet, but they're also pretty bluntthirsty as well. You know, they're discussing scenes where people are blinded executions, all of that sort of thing. And so this is, I think, a fairly savage attack, not only on us as viewers for still watching this crap, but also on the show itself and not just this era, but, you know, the show is a show about various things assailing the doctor, people being killed bloodthirsty things, and here we all are enjoying it, like Eric and Etar. I sometimes wonder if it is a satire on a bloodthirsty audience, or if it's a satire on the kind of people who now say that violent video games beget violence. Because as a gamer, I am constantly exposed to that idea. I have a friend who is a primary school teacher, who gotten a discussion with me about that once. He's like, you're an ex-teacher. How can you enjoy playing video games when they cause this violence and I see it in my students? And I'm kind of like, well, actually, no, there's lots of studies that say that just watching violence does not itself make you violent. I actually worry about ragtime music causing violence. Not to mention reefer madness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, this is not very deep. I just sit there and if violence happens. Well, you know how bloodthirsty I was. So I'm one of these people that just says, yes, give me more of it give me more of it, but to be quite honest, you know, at the time I think there's a lot of Hollywood movies around this time that it's all now guns and violence and this is what we are, you know maybe I'm desensitised to it. don't know. I don't know if I really thought about it on that level. And I think that's the best kind of commentary, the commentary that doesn't exactly tell you what to think, but just the commentary that makes you think. I think it is a strangely revealing kind of picture of the show. I think if nothing else, it is asking the audience to consider what they watch. Yeah. And, um, in a way, one of its antecedents is Nigel Neil's the year of the sex Olympics. This is from the same writer as Quator Mass. et cetera. And the concept of it was a world where reality TV has become the norm. I mean, God, awful people who work in reality television. And this show has started and it's about a young couple with a baby and they're living in this desolate environment and the idea is they're going back to basics. They don't have their technology and everyone at home is watching them live, et cetera, et cetera. And then a psychopath breaks into the studio and rather than stop the psychopath. Like, well, let's find out what happens next. So the weird thing is, I believe in the context of the show, the year of the sex Olympics. The Sex Olympics is another show, a competing show that they're referring to that they never show on screen because this is 1968 but everyone else is watching this survivalist show and wondering if these this young couple in this snowbound wasteland and their young baby is going to survive being in the same environment as a psychopath and they don't know it's there. But this idea of presenting a TV show or film, we're watching other people watching it. It's something that's never really gone away since then. You know, we've had the Truman show. We've had the Matrix, which was about beings watching humans as entertainment. Doctor Who's done it again. In, in perhaps my favourite story over Bad Wolf, the Parting of the Ways, which I just think is wonderful and also creates a disc topic future society by critiquing the things that they watch on television. And it kind of stretches the absolute boundaries of realism by having those things be exactly what we were watching on television in 2005. But those things are terribly funny. I think that's part of the reason I will always like the story and I will always rate it highly. It may not be perfect in this execution, and I certainly think there are pacing issues as we've previously discussed. But it, It is an attempt to do something really quite new and interesting and of the time. And something we discussed in our Peter Davidson retrospective a few weeks ago is quite often they're just doing Doctor Who stories because we make Doctor Who stories and that's what we do and it's not really about social commentary. You were saying earlier when we were recording, Todd, that you like, I think you really like this story. I quite enjoy it and Nathan thinks it's terrible. Well, I think it's got some things going for it. But I think it has really serious problems that I think often go unacknowledged. I mean, I think this is a fairly highly regarded Colin Baker story. And I think there must be quite a few people for whom this is their favourite story. Uh, just get your shot glasses ready, but Sandra thinks that this is perhaps the only Colin Baker story that might be accorded the status of a classic. But I just think it has some flaws in it that really, really spoil that. And I want to start by referring to John Darr and Areta. Oh, dear God. Jason Connery. And I don't even know her name. I don't even want to know her name. I don't think does she, she does eventually get a name in episode two. No, no, no, her acting. Yeah, the actor, but Areta is just ancient Greek for virtue, I think. And they're both blonde, aren't they? So they're heroes. She is Geraldine Alexander. I think the thing with them is that they're so cardboard and wooden. But listeners, I was just going to say that. I quite like the fact that they're so earnest beyond all. Like, you know, they both have some speeches somewhere in one of their rooms. She in particular has this thing, which you could be reading from the telephone directory. You know, it's a really badly written speech and it's really poorly delivered. And John Darr gets to do speeches as well. And I think the show is making fun of them. I mean, they're both poor performances, and I know that Jason Connery has gone on to do other things, and I don't think he's necessarily a terrible actor, but he is terrible in this. But the moment where he comes upon the cannibals in nappies, who really, really deserve to be mentioned to anyone who calls this story a classic, the moment he comes up to the cannibals in nappies and says, fellow prisoners, and then Colin shuts him down and tells him it's no time for political speeches. I think that that's the moment where it becomes clear that they're being satirised. Is it too late to change the name of the podcast for cannibals in now? I just, okay. So Ron Jones directed this. That is one of the most bizarre choices in the history of Doctor Who. Cannibals and nappies. And we do see them before that because Arak and Etta are watching them punch one another on television. And when one of them is killed, the other one drags him back to his lair to eat, presumably later. Which I just think's hilarious. actually sit there and I just laugh at it. just laugh at it. What I find so odd about the cannibals in nappies is, I suppose it's about subverting expectation. You know, you might expect them to be physically fit if they're constantly killing people and eating them, but they're these 2 mid 50s building bank managers from Worthing. you know? They're terrible. It's an old choice. I like my cannibals in bright colours and lovely cardigans, I have to say. Well, I think we'll get that in a couple of years time. I actually think Jason Carey gets better. through this when he's not paired with her of the perm. Like that perm that she has makes her look at least 10 years older than him. I'm just going to say. But it's very 80s though. That's the thing. very period. Besides those 2 performances, which I think are great. I think Rondell and Maldak are both terrible as well. I actually think they're quite good. Rondo's killed quite quickly, which is a relief. No, I quite like Owen Teal as Maldak because, you know, especially when the governor is appealing to him to let Perry go. There is some interiority there and he is thinking it over. And thankfully, Owen Teal, who played him, has gone on to have a very long career and he's appeared in torchwood, but we won't hold that against him. Actually, he's quite good in torture. He's in countryside. Oh really? He's the one who at the end when Gwen asks him why he's done what he's done. He just says to her, because I enjoy it. And he's a, he's played a villain in a few things and he's, oh actually, Game of Thrones, Game of Thrones. He is Sir Alastair Thorne. John Snow's antagonist in the Knights Watch, and he is brilliant in it, because it is sometimes difficult for people to watch Game of Thrones, I won't spoil too much his role in season. 5 and 6, but he takes an action, which, as a viewer who likes John Snow as you're meant to, you immediately are opposed to him in that action. But when he explains his motivation for it. An objective person will have to look at that and say, look working with what you believe in the facts you have. You can understand his action, and Owen T will plays out really well. So he's become a very experienced actor. In Jason Connery's defence, I believe this was his 1st television. Right. And it wasn't long after this that he started doing his Robin Hood series in which he is much better. Right, okay. And he plays Ian Fleming, I think, in something later in a film or something. Is that a thing? wouldn't be at all surprised. Look, I think he's quite pretty. And although he's only got one. 5 abs on each side, visible above those high waisted pants. I think it's a terrible waste. is I'm just ignored it. all week. I'm sorry. Do carry on, Todd, and I'm sorry, dear listener. Like, we'll point it out the performances in Stellar, but neither is it like one that I, you know, I've ranted about other people how empathetic they've been recently in the twin dilemma. Like it's nowhere near that. But I think there's, I think that's because there's other people around that I really like. I think Martin Jarvis is the governor. His performance is amazing. Yes. and his relationship with Perry and what Nicola has to do in those scenes and... Seal. Yeah. Abil Shabin is just amazing. I think. So can we discuss each of them in turn? I really think Martin Jarvis lifts this. and he is probably going to be my favourite guest actor of the Colin Baker period. I think he's just terrific. He was one hell of a great monoptera all those years ago. Butler, an Invasion of the Dinosaurs. He's really, really good here. And people talk about the nobility of his character. But in fact, he's a really horrible person. And he is kind of Tony Blair, who's, you know, going to rescue us from decades of Tory government because he's utterly lacking in principle. He is prepared to organise executions in order to take the heat off himself. He's completely happy to sell torture videos to other planets. And yet when Seal appears to be enjoying the videos, he's watching. He has the gall to kind of sneer at seal. And one of the things that I maybe like about this story is in fact that Varos is left at his mercy at the end of it, and I have no confidence that the doctor has solved that planet's problems. See, I think Martin Jarvis's governor character goes on a little bit of a journey because there is the seed in his mind. At the beginning of the story that what is happening on Baros is wrong. Like when it backs suggests the torture method and execution method for John Darr to neutralise the cue switch and build up the laser. The governor is visibly disgusted by that idea and the chief, who's played rather wonderfully by Forbes Collins, who says, the chief is great. And who's the other guy with the Quillum? Quillum, Nicholas Chagrin. I think he I think he's very good too. I actually think that he is one of the worst things about this story. But when the chief objects to the execution, it's simply because oh, it'll be too quick. Too quick. No, no one will notice. Later on, when the governor has been chatting to Perry, it shared a little joke with her about Sill's translation unit. Like, don't tell him this translator doesn't work as my only source of amusement. And Perry begins to see this could be a sympathetic person. And then he says, we'll use the girl to get to the doctor and she says, I thought you were better than these other brutes. He is visibly hurt by that. And you said earlier, Nathan, that perhaps the doctor doesn't have much of an impact in this story. Perhaps he doesn't, but I believe that the governor's changing character is because for the 1st time in his life, he's met someone who cares for others more than herself and her own self preservation. And I think that slowly changes him over the course of the 2nd episode. I would hope that that's intentional, that that's really visible because one of the glaring problems with this story, is that it seems to me that if the doctor and Perry had gone somewhere else that things would have played out pretty much the same as they did. The only reason that the governor is able to kind of change the political system and throw off their oppressors, like the Galatron mining corporation has been ripping them off and oppressing them and buying their stuff cheaply. In fact, the only reason that that situation changes is, firstly the governor persuades Maldak to let him escape. And then secondly, a series of messages appear on the screen saying that by chance we found another source of Zeiton 7 on biosculptor, and now you just have to pay the people of Varos as much money as they ask. So, in fact, the doctor has absolutely nothing to do with that, and the plot is completely resolved by a few messages from the Galatron mining corporation appearing on the screen. And even when that happens, Martin Jarvis is so stupid that he only increases. He's seen that message and he increases the asking price from 7 to 20. When it was like, pay any price. I'd be going up to, you know, a 1000, 2000 a unit, you know. So the doctor absolutely has no role in resolving anything that happens here. And that is a big problem under Eric, say, would generally, and I think this is the worst example of it. It's a shame because it would have been very simple to solve it by saying that the doctor sent a message to somewhere he knew had Ziton and said, hey, tell this planet you've got, tell this corporation you've got it to take the heat off this planet. You know, that would have been a simple way to fix that. In fact, the big hero moment where he resolves things is where he instructs John Darner ranted to fling poisonous vines at Quillum and the chief. Do you know what I mean? And and that's unpleasant. That's not particularly heroic. He doesn't actually do anything and he encourages them to kill some people. And I just think that, The show now has a big problem with the doctor being a hero. That Seward doesn't believe in heroes. No one in this story is a good guy at all. And now that's not even the doctor, you know, not even the doctor gets to fix the problem. And we saw it in season 21. It's not purely a Colin Baker phenomenon, but it's increasingly something that the show does and I think it's a, it's a bad mistake. It just becomes the doctor turns up somewhere and a whole bunch of science fiction things happen and then he leaves. Do you know what I mean? It's no longer the doctor turns up somewhere, overthrows the government in an evening and then he leaves. I love those stories, you know, the show has no shape. There's no reason for us to be interested in what the doctor's doing. And say it certainly doesn't think that because everything's about these environments that he's created and the tertiary characters that he's peopled them with. Very insightful. I think that's a really good take. on the core structure of Eric Saywood's Time as script editor. One of the things is that the doctor's constantly going on a holiday, right? Yeah, yeah. And I can see where you're coming from with that. I do think that without them arriving, then John Dar wouldn't have got away and a series of events wouldn't have occurred to put the governor in the position for change to happen, right? So even though their impact on what's going on is quite minimal. Yeah, I mean, you need to structure the story around the doctor solving a problem. That doesn't worry me. Yeah. Okay? listeners, it doesn't worry me. I like the fact that they're there involved with these trials. It's been commented on, and things happen, and yeah, maybe they haven't had the impact, but I enjoy, I enjoy so many of the characters. I enjoy Colin's performance in this once they get to the, or even in the Tartar scene. I still think, you know, he's doing a good job with situation that's not great. Two of my favourite sequences or 3 of them. One is the joke of Perrier at the end. I love that, which I didn't get as a kid, and I just think it's lovely. And there's a warmth there with the characters. Once they have their bitch scene, oh, this is the thing. Once they have their bit of tetar tent over and done with in episode one. You know, when they both fling their heads around the, what is it? Around the wall, going, hi, you know, there's more room. Yeah, that's really cute. There's more warmth and throughout, you know, he is concerned about Perry. I think one of the biggest criticisms of the era is his lack of concern for her and their relationship. But I again think in this, that it's generally quite good. I mean, and even in the last story, it is quite good. I think I said about the twin dilemma that it actually leads up to a climax where we see the doctor who has been really horrible express concern for Perry. Do you know what I mean? I think that that's something that they try to turn around quite quickly. So they're 2 of my favourite moments. The other one I really love, and you probably will disagree with me is the hanging scene. And I really like Colin's performance leading up to it. I think it's wonderful. And I always forget about it, like I'm going, why is a doctor acting like, it's just slightly, there's something just slightly not right, and he's twigged as to what's going on. Again, Collins come in. He's got the energy of a new doctor, you know, he knows what he wants to do, right? Even if the writing is not always where it needs to be. And, you know, I say to any naysayers out there, you watch that scene. The bit where Martin Jarvis asks him, like, if he wants to make a statement or have a last request or something, and he's not listening, like, he's just pretending not to listen and then he sort of suddenly reacts. I think he's really good. Again, I think he does give a sort of fairly unfortunate political speech, which is poorly written, the poor quality of which is only kind of amplified by the theatricality of his performance. But I think he's really doctor-ish in that scene. And there's something like he does, he nails doctor-ish. For me, he nails doctorish in a way that his predecessant didn't do for me. He didn't very often for me either, but he does sometimes, I think. Oh, I'm not saying he doesn't, but I'm just saying in this context having gone through 3 years or not doctor-ish. I've latched onto this as a kid, right? And, and those doctrish moments throughout this season are there for me, right? And the other flaws, writing character or whatever, don't have much of an impact. I mean, I quite like a lot of the dark humour and the sort of some of the put downs and that sort of thing. That's me. I actually quite like that in movies and that sort of thing. And I know that a lot of fans don't really like that and it's not for them. The whole thing with Colin being a bit more, Colin's doctor being a bit more unpredictable and a bit more violent. I think is a crystalisation of trying to address the problems with the Davison characterisation and the gentleness of that. A scene I love so much in this story is when Perry and Aretta are under that transmogrification beam, and John Dar is... I won't say beside himself because Jason Connery doesn't quite convey that, but is very concerned and shouting. And the doctor's just having a nice conversation with Quillerman. Oh, and how does this work? And, oh, and what kind of laser are you using? And then grabs a gun and points it at Quilum. And Quilum's like, well, you need me to operate the machine and the doctor's like, oh, it's that machine, is it? and blows up the machine. I think that is a wonderfully doctor-ish thing to do. I don't really have a problem with the doctor pointing a gun at someone as a dramatic device and something that often happens in the 80s. The doctor's pointed a gun at a few people, and it is used as a dramatic device to varying effect. I think the best time it's been used is when the doctor then gives his gun to Commander Vorsak in Warriors of the Deep. But I think this is a wonderful heroic moment on the doctor's part in that it shows how different he is to his predecessor. And also shows the lengths he's willing to go to to rescue Perry. The thing with the vines, it is. An uncomfortably violent moment from the doctor, but the other thing is, the doctor has always stated he is averse to violence but he has no problem with people performing violence on his behalf, even if we were to look at the 2nd doctor who is arguably the least violent doctor we've had. Except for the time that he shoots all those ice Warriors. Shoots all those nice warriors. Rams are lawyers head into a desk, et cetera. But that's the thing. As soon as he's got Jamie, he's quite happy for Jamie to run around clobbering people and stabbing people. The 4th doctor says to Leila, stop stabbing people about 3 weeks after he's punched a chauffeur unconscious in a gravel pit. So the doctor has never been averse to violence. And in that scene with the vines, I think it's very important to note that the doctor does not approach Quillum and the chief. It's almost the whole Russell T. Davis 10th doctor thing of the doctor has to walk up to the villain and say, you need to leave or I'm going to do something. That's what's happening here. The doctor is in an area that they know have the poison vines. How does he know the vines are poisonous? Yeah, I believe he identifies the scientific name of them when they walk in. He says, oh, it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Even though the doctor orchestrates the trap, he is very clearly He's very clearly upset that he has to pull it. You know, he is very quiet and subdued afterwards and let's get away from here. And there's the infamous acid bath scene, which, as Colin says, if you watch it, the doctor with the with the trolly bed between him and the attendant, Colin is pulling. It really doesn't look like that. And I did keep an eye out for it. It looks like he's trying to push the guy. No, he doesn't. He's actually trying to defend himself, and that's what I see every time as a kid, I saw that. One of the things that's really annoyed me over the years is when I came into fandom, there was this thing where it says the doctor pushes these people into the acid path. Well, no, he gets up. The 1st person is a fool and gets startled and falls in and then his assistant just turns around and starts to go for the doctor and the doctor's actually defending himself. I see that every single time. And then the other person pulls the other guy in. That is what happens, but I think I think that the fight scenes in this story are ineptly directed just generally, and it's Ron Jones for God's sake. He can't direct fights. He can direct traffic, though, because there's those little cards. But it does look like the doctor's trying to push him in. And I think that there, it's a mistake to show the guy, with all his skin dissolving off, coming up to pull the other guy in because A, why would he do that and be like yuck? Well, he's not trying to pull the other guy in. He's just trying to pull himself out. You're desperate. You're grasping. I think the biggest problem with that scene is, do you mind if I don't join you? That is cruel. and callous, and that is the complete opposite of the scene I just mentioned where the doctor is upset with what he's had to do to Quillem and the chief. He does a moment of little horrified acting where he thinks about it for a second. Yeah, but the thing is, it's not really horrified. It's more, ooh, I'm not eating that. You know, it's kind of mild irritation. disagree with you. Okay, fair enough. I think he downplays it. And it's a dark moment. I'm not going to disagree, but he could have been what people think, like really like enjoying that. I actually think it's his way of sort of trying to justify in his head what's just happened. That's my personal reading of it. And look, of course, should it have been shot the way it was shot? should it really have happened? Probably not, okay? But I remember as a kid watching various Hollywood movies and a lot of henchmen get dispatched in sort of cruel sort of humourous ways, like, you know, sucked into aeroplane propellers, and then the hero has some sort of witty line. And I can sort of see, listeners, I'm sorry, I'm just going to give up here and just say, look, I've got a dark sense of humour. Every time I watch this scene. I had no sympathy for those attendants. I think they're absolute fools. and no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I know you're laughing, Nathan, but I really just, I just sit there and I just actually just go, well, you're an idiot, you know? I'm sorry. You're brought out upon yourself. There you go, woman. You gonna take the doctor now, well, good luck. And I have no problem at all with him even saying. I'm just imagining those 2 attendants having a chat 5 minutes before that saying, so I asked for them to put a rail around this pool of acid and they're not going to. Do you know why? Why? Because they say we'll be leaning on it. Oh, well, that would have been wonderful to have a scene like that. Divine scene actually I had more problem with. That's a contradict because all of those people die. Even the 2 in the background. They didn't need to necessarily the 2 other guards. It could have just been those horrible 2 that have caused a lot of problems. But, you know, in context of the new series where Russell T has gone about the doctor uses other people as weapons, it's just, you know, and the doctor doesn't do it all the time, whether it be, you know, blowing up fleets of things or whatever, he does use other people and that survives them. And rather darkly. Had the chief and Quillum been left alive, they're in Seal's pocket. With them gone, still has no power on Varos. Okay. But I mean, he is then undermined by the Galatron mining corporation anyway. Yeah, exactly. Interestingly enough, over on the A team, which is still in competition with Doctor Who at this point. We do have lots of guns. The big thing, though, about the A-Team, and the thing everyone comments on is the 18 themselves never shoot people, they only shoot cars, they shoot cars off the road, and then when the car goes off the road, they have to have a shot showing everyone getting out of the car. So it's like the A team's thing was violence and explosions, but very visibly showing, yeah, no one's died from this, which is exactly the kind of thing Eric Saywood argues against. He says, if you're going to fire a gun, you have to show the violent impact of that act to get across the firing guns is bad. See, that's why I just think you don't do it in Doctor Who. There's no blood in New Who just about for the 1st like for the whole Russell T. Davis era. I think we get a bit of blood where the master gets killed in last of the time lords. There's still terror and violence. There's stakes. There's people who get killed. But there's just a kind of relentless nastiness to the program at the moment, which I don't like. And there is occasionally humour, but, but Eric Saywood can't write good jokes. I think the best joke is the ad-libbed Perrier joke, which is just the doctor being sort of rather sweet and silly. I think there's something unpleasant about this story. The other joke that was cut, which is rather terrible. You can find it on the DVD. So originally the whole, what are we going to do? Dano thing with the static screen wasn't the final shot. There was a shot back in the TARDIS with the doctor saying to Perry, look, are you feeling okay after what you've been through? And she says, well, aside from the residual effects of foul pest, I think I'll be fine. That's been our 2nd foul pest joke of the era. Which leads the doctor then to say, well, so long as you stay away from millet and cuttlefish, and they have a Scooby-Doo laugh, and the titles cut in. And it's not Colin and Nicola's fault. It's a horrible script and it really undermines the whole, what are we going to do? Dunno ending, which is which is lovely and memorable. I actually like how both episodes end with a shot of a television screen. You know, one with a cliffhanger on it and one with static. And, you know, the static at the end just makes us think of the hiatus. Like, what's going to happen? We've got no Doctor Who for 18 months. What are we going to do? ahead of ourselves. So we do, of course, have. who I think is actually pretty good and I'm not surprised that he comes back next year. I think he's sort of funny. I think the laugh that he does is really good. He looks like a turd that's been working out, doesn't he? Really? He's got a pointy end, you know, and he's sort of a bit some upper body sort of muscles and stuff. He is proper buff like. You're a lying liar. And I love the fact that he finds her revoltingly ugly. Like, it's just, I just find that so funny because like, she's a beautiful woman. And also, you know, throughout this era, she's going to be sleazed on by aliens. Mestor thought she was really hot stuff. So it's kind of nice, a little bit of a relief, in fact, that Seal doesn't find her attractive as well. And then he's got his buffer attendance with him, you know? I just think that's appalling. And is it the only time that black people appear in this season? It may be the only, one of them gets to say the word right. So it may be the only black person with the speaking part, and all they are is slaves in fetish gear. And, you know, we complained about that in terror of the autons because of poor old Roy Stewart. But, you know, it's much later. It's the 80s now and that's not really defensible, I think. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, it is a problem for the season. I don't think it's a problem for this story because it very quickly tells you through visual identification, through the fact that these are 2 black actors. It's only a few years after roots, which was, of course, watershed television. It is telling you that Sill has slaves and that is wrong. And therefore he is an villainous character. I had not considered that these are the only 2 black actors in the season. And I agree with you that that is appalling representation. I hadn't considered either and I think that they wouldn't even have considered it. No, but that's a problem. Like, they just didn't think about it. No. And that's what I'm saying is the problem. The problem is that we have 2 slaves to cast will cast black people and that's the only time we think of doing that this year. And the 80s, Doctor Who isn't that great in the 80s, as far as representation of sort of minorities is concerned. And it does get a bit better when Sylvester McCoy comes along. But then there are sort of slightly embarrassing token things like the ringmastery and greater show of the galaxy. But I do think that it's not really good enough. And those guys too. They're in the backgrounds are shots, and they're just staring into the distance, you know, they're barely people, their scenery and I really think that that's bad. And I think it's no better next year when it turns out that Thoros Beta is the planet of black people who carry slugs around the place. I will say getting slightly ahead of ourselves next year, though that Frax and Madame Catriona are characters. Oh, yeah, yeah. in a way that these guys don't get in a way. Yeah, exactly. A word on Nabil Shabin, of course, who has been a Doctor Who fan since the Heartnol era. His 1st Doctor Who story was the 1st Dalek story while he was in hospital. Right. So he is an actor with a condition called osteogenesis imperfectica, which meant his legs didn't develop. Right. Um, the slug tail are his legs. So, for me as I look down. I'm looking at the top of my thighs, that is essentially the extent of his legs. So yeah, he was in that and I think he kind of describes it as being like a mermaid tale. And initially he was going to be submerged, partially submerged in that tank. But they couldn't figure out a way to make it work, so they just perched him on top instead. I like how he calls upon the attendance to moisturise him, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to look the best, my best for the sort of upcoming conference call. I find the heat of this Varos type world. Most unpleasant. I think he's I think he's fun. I think he's the most Doctor Who-ish thing in the story. And, well, it's kind of the thing we would come to expect from David Tennant in that he's an immense fan of the show. So he puts in 5000% into his performance and is thus magnificent. Yeah, the laugh is really great. And it was a great idea to end episode one on that laugh. I love that. It's wonderful. And it is, it's the sort of thing you can imitate in the playground. Oh, great, it's precisely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, you know, it sticks in my mind to this day. Yeah, he's the 1st imitable villain and indeed alien. In ages. I'm trying to think of another villain. You might. Well, I think, I remember you saying, Todd, that you and your sister would imitate the Mara. Tegan's Mara voice. Yeah, that's more of a person rather than, yeah, yeah. We used to, we used to do lots of skibbus and tarpoc, I think. Back in the 80s, I seem to remember. Excellent. Skim us. But I don't think we didn't we didn't do them on the playground like, you know, but this was the 1st one, you know. The John Nathan Turner era, really, that, you know, you're doing in the playground. Yeah, they haven't done great monsters, have they? And I think everyone's since then, like in the new series, they're very careful. And Moffat in particular is particularly good at introducing and creating new high concept, you know, monsters and aliens, but it's really not something that the program's been interested in for a while. And still is more of a character than a, than a race of aliens really. Yeah. Although we will get to see more of his race next year because JNT was so taken with Nabil's performance because really Nabil creates the mentors here. and creates the idea that they're this ruthless mercantile race. Shortly before production wrapped, Jonathan Turner sent a memo to I believe it was the props department saying, please retain the costume and the water tank. I intend to revisit the character. And they disobeyed because he comes back in a different costume than without the water team. They did keep it, but they decided to do a new right. Yeah. So yeah, the stuff was kept. I think the 2nd costume is a little bit more successful. There's a sort of Finn thing around his face, which obscures the join. Yeah, there's a bit of a problem with the helmet and the face and all of that sort of thing and I think they do a better job of it next time. I'm not sure about the bright green next time. But, you know, he, it's not the costume so much as the performance that's fun and it is, you know, it's a fairly bog standard satire of sort of slimy mid 80s capitalism and that's something that will be played up a lot more actually in his next appearance next year. So speaking of costumes. The doctor actually gets out of his coach during this story, like for quite a bit of it. I like the fact that the coat's not there for a bit, you know? I think the coat works better when it's on alien worlds. I know you didn't like it last week. But you see, last week I didn't have a problem with it because you were in the tombs and even when they were running around London. They weren't interacting with many people, so it was just their own little subplot, so I didn't actually have a problem with that. And I like the fact that it gets ditched for a while here, which is a good thing, but yeah. The costume that's left isn't very flattering because it's got those big yellow pants that are worn up too high and then a big white shirt. And so he's wearing pale colours that really don't flash him. And again, the 2nd doctor, 3rd doctor in a row, whose braces have question marks on them, which I just think is awful. So I don't like that. I'm going to be a big fan next week of the Flash's Mac that he steals and wears in Mark of the Rani, and I would have liked to have seen him wear that a little bit further. And actually, I suspect that Colin would have been more comfortable in that as well. Probably would have too. There is actually a very hopeful moment where he starts trying on Quillum's clothes, but gets interrupted just a little too soon thankfully. Oh, can we? Unfortunately, I should say. You don't like him? No, I think that the standard disfigured scientist guy is tired. You know, he's kind of a 5th rate Davros, really. I'm a bit exhausted by how he's coded as gay. There's extravagant hand movements, the way that he speaks, and that famous line, you know, I want to hear him scream until I am deaf with pleasure. Like he's camp. So I don't like the performance. He's got terrible commander data hair, which I guess is just part of the period, and I don't know what he's doing there. Do you know what I mean? I mean, his job is to run that transmogrification thing. But I think the transmogrification thing is a mistake. It's kind of a sci-fi B movie conceit. And they were never, ever going to be able to pull it off in a convincing way. And so perry with the gloves with feathers sewn onto them. It just looks stewed. I think those look amazing. To talk about Quillum for a second, his performance changes when his mask gets ripped off. When he has the mask on, he's very calm and very controlled. As soon as the mask is ripped off, he's ranting and raving. And I think it ties in with that thing I was saying earlier about is the 6 doctor, a character with actually really low self-esteem who's acting out. And I think that's the case with Quillum. I think no one has seen him without his mask before and now he is embarrassed and fighting because he's got this disfigurement, which is silly in and of itself. You know, it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. You would learn to live with it. But the transmogrification, especially the makeup on Geraldine Alexander as a retta, the reptilian makeup, it is Star Trek the next generation level, which everyone was holding. Maybe season one, Star Trek the next generation level. But I really like Nicolas Bird makeup as well. Maybe it's just an eye of the beholder thing, but I think it's done really well. Physical disfigurement and transmogrification is an obsession for Philip Martin. It'll come up in his next Doctor Who story. He writes a story for Big Finish where it comes up again. Much like Robert Holmes with Space Pirates, Power of Kroll, and K's of Andrazani. Philip Martin writes one story for Doctor Who. I don't mind the transmogrification at all. Yeah, the glove hand looks a bit, but the rest of it, I think, is quite well done. I never saw the gay code of stuff in Gryllm's performance as a kid. I just didn't see it and I still didn't pick up on it now. I don't think it's necessarily there. Can I say one thing in defence of one performance that people were talking about earlier? I quite like Areta's Info Dumps at the beginning of episode one. I love her scene with Quillum. Or something truly loathsome such as you. It's so Shakespearean, but I also really love her scene with Rondall because it is the unfortunate thing, oh, she has to say things like, you know, the descendants of the officers still rule. It's an unfortunate line, but I believe the emotion she puts into it, and I believe the emotion that Rondall responds with. I think having a character called Rondle is a mistake in a series when you've already established the word roundel. It could have been called fondle. Fondle. No, that wasn't an instruction. Although, you know, with him, I would. Anyway, um, he's dead now. Have some respect, Brandon. It's actually better than a lot of other info dumps in the era. But Ira has a tendency towards info dumps. I mean, we're going to hit the Nadir of that in a few stories. Oh, 500, obviously. It's not necessary. Do you know what I mean? It's not necessary. They're writing down to the audience. And the syntax of them is so deadening, you know, that example something truly loathsome such as you, like, who would say that? It doesn't need to be supernaturalistic, but it doesn't need to be quite so awkward. And next week it's going to get worse in a story that I think is less unpleasant than this one, but it has much more florid and preposterous dialogue than this one does. Yeah, her performance. I'm sorry, no, it just doesn't sell it. I'm sorry, it just doesn't print. I mean, I think she just becomes a peril monkey after that point. Yeah, she identifies the Gigi fly. She screams John Darr a lot. She doesn't stop Perry wandering off and getting caught in the buggy. Those buggies, you can tell when they've been sped up on the video disc. And yet they keep, they come back at least twice in the series in different forms. It's ridiculous. They're back in Happiness Patrol. When else have they back? I believe they are, I believe they are adapted in mysterious planet. Oh, actually, I mean, they're cute, but they're ridiculous. but they're ridiculous. but I don't mind them. There's an attempt to make it seem a bit less studio-ish. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, rather than just drive vehicles around. It's like, it's like the horses in the studio in the gunfighters you know? So this story, ratings. 7.2 and 7 million, which is, you know, pretty much in line with previous, but what's concerning is the placing, which is 108th and 110th. So obviously it's not even in the top 100. With 7 million. You know, and previous seasons with 7 or 7.5 million. It's like, you know, in the 80s or whatever. Looking at Pete's ratings and the ratings here is that a lot of Peter's episodes are either 7.6 or 6.6. there's this 1000000 gap. And the 7.6 is, when he has like one around 7 million, it tends to be lower. So I reckon there's a lot of television shows, that are between like 7000000 and about 7.6. And if you hit the bottom scale of that, you'll suddenly push down a lot, whereas I think there is a big difference between 7000000 and getting 7.6 million. I think there's a lot of shows that are probably in there. Is Doc 2 going out, it's going out at 520. See, maybe the fact that it is earlier means that there might be you know, a few 100,000 viewers that aren't there. It is sort of too early, isn't it? Yeah, and I think at this stage, they're still pitching the scripts for a later time slot. Yeah, it does seem unusual to have people fall into baths of acid at sort of quarter to six. on a weekend night. Look, I just want to say, you've brought up a lot of interesting points, Nathan. I have real respect for your insights. I think the biggest thing that you've brought up here is the fact that the doctor's impact is minimal. and the fact that the slave guards are black men and that and I never even thought about. the only the only the only black actors in the season. For me, watching this, again, in order, the biggest problem of the era so far is that each story has tried to do something new and not quite succeeded. But I feel like at this point in the Davis and era, we'd had Castro Valver, Fort Doomsday and Kinder, and of those, I would only say Kinder is the most inventive of those. Whereas twin dilemma, for all its fault, Attack of the Simon and this, are all incredibly inventive. Possibly to the detriment of the story, but I think that's possibly why I prefer Colin's era to Peters, and I'll discover that more as I go along. But Collins era, if nothing else, is always inventive. Well, dear listeners, we have refuelled on Argonite/spectrox methane/ziton 7/ Tesla's electric motor, so we'll be taking off from the planet Varos. Now, heading to Cube Gardens in the 19th century. It's going to be a great trip. I'm so looking forward to it. Do come back next week for Mark of the Rani. You can find us online at Flightthrough Entirety.sexy Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast on Twitter. Over on Bondfinger. We have the complete run of Sean Connery and Roger Moore James Bond films, as well as special guest stars, David Nevin and George Lazenby. Thats in the films, by the way. They didn't come watch them with us. You can find that at bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bond finger cast on Twitter. I'm continuing to self-promote by telling you to go by the wonderful book, Hating to Love, which also includes essays from people such as J.R. Southall, and Beth Ward and John Arnold, reassessing 52 of the worst ever Doctor Who stories. Which Colin Baker ones are in there? Well, you're just going to have to have a look at the book and find out. And finally, may none of your alien slugs get the runs after eating dyed peaches. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. That was Flatthrough Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Boffley and Brendan Jones. theme arrangement by Cameron Ladd. This episode, cardboard and wooden, was recorded on January 15th 2017. The next episode will be released on February 12th. Out now on Verosian Broadcasting Company Video, Nappy Cannibals Gone Wild Volume 7. Order now and receive a free copy of synchronised acid bath diving. Like I think there are good things in this story, but I think there are a lot of bad things as well. A lot. That's okay because I think there's crap in this, but I enjoy it. Yeah. I enjoyed pathetic performances. Yeah. Who do you think is pathetic? That woman. Oh Jesus Christ, she's bad. Okay, could we save it? They're a power couple of crap, but I love the fact that they're crap.