Bitter and Painful

[00:51]

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who gets all their life advice from Welsh bees.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Nathan.

And I'm Ruth Maddock in a hula skirt for this episode, if anyone remembers her.

It's Todd's most favourite story ever, and we can say that because he's not here.

It's Delta of the Batman.

Hurrah!

Actually, to be fair, he doesn't hate it as much as he used to.

Anyway, I just say this is my favourite Sylvester story.

It's brilliant.

I love this so much.

I can't tell you the joy of a very windy 1988 here in Sydney and gray and then this disappeared and I thought, ah, I'm home.

It's beautiful.

[01:51]

This is so lovely.

This had a mystique for me as a kid because the 1st time around we missed episode two.

So I only had episode one and episode three.

And it's amazing, you know, it still pretty much hangs together and we had watched it.

And you know, me being 5 years old, didn't have a great memory, but my brother was able to tell me what happened in the middle episode.

It wasn't for very long.

I think they repeated Sill's 1st season remembrance almost straight away after the 1st run and we then got the 2nd episode.

So on the Paradise Towers tape.

I had episodes one and 3 and then on another tape I had all 3 episodes of Delta and the Batter Men.

The past was miserable.

All archeology.

Richard, you are so right that this story is so bright and breezy and fun.

It was written by Malcolm Cole, who was Andrew Cartmel's 1st personally commissioned script for the show.

Malcolm Cole had grown up in Zimbabwe.

But John Nathan Turner suggested the location of holiday camps, which Malcolm Cole was really big fan of.

[02:54]

His brother lived in Wales.

So there were lots of holiday camps around and Malcolm... an Old Testament superhero.

And Malcolm Cole as a child had gone on a holiday to a holiday camp and it was a really happy memory for him.

So he was he was thrilled to be writing for that.

And the holiday... casual alcoholism and incipient, really.

Yes it really was. interesting time.

Well, get more to that, won't we?

Later on in the episode.

I think this is the darkest Doctor Who story so far about relationships and why people are together and what brings people together.

This is a very adult story.

It is.

And Doctor Who...

Pretty much almost always very poorly handles romance.

Well, normally we just shut the doors and tell them they're better off without us and to go on boldly and cross pollinate our double entendres, don't we?

normally.

But yeah, yeah.

[03:54]

Yeah, romance is usually just used in Doctor Who as a way to justify contract roulette and write out the girlie of the time.

Although Joe gets a little off-world romance, doesn't she, every time she goes to another planet?

That's true, which is reasonably well handled.

And space slaggy.

And I think Joe is one of only 2 characters who actually gets a decent romantic exit, the other one being, in my opinion, Susan, you know, because that relationship develops over a period of weeks. it?

Yeah, there's the whole bit with the fish in front of the fire. slapping down, Steve, and she mixes him something toxic.

They're just saying don't put bodies, you know, dump in the river. cookies of fish there.

And then he's sitting there. very obsequious to the doctor, though, isn't he, David Campbell?

And then, of course, they just, no, just, oh, she looks like she's a bit flirty.

Right, sort you misses. locks the door and buckers off.

Really?

I think I true late as well.

I think it's the most extraordinary actor.

Dr. Ness, yeah, but anyway.

[04:55]

But, you know, here we have Not so much from Billy, but really on the part of Ray, a real human expression.

Well, I think it's such a clever idea that when they're developing her character, they say, you know what?

We may keep her on as a companion because it means she gets well-rounded characterisation.

And you know what?

Yes, she's pining after Billy, but that doesn't make her this complete simpering.

Oh, he does, he's not interested in me.

I'm gonna collapse in a heap.

No, in fact, she's quite happy to get the bike. all right, you bugger off into space.

I'll have the bike.

This vibrate's a lot heavier than you ever did in queer coot.

There's that beautiful bit where the doctor calls her my dear in Welsh.

You know, my weak Harriad.

I think they both try and outdo each other's vows, don't they?

It would have been. can you imagine a whole series with Sarah Griffiths and and Sylvester McCoy, you would not have been able to understand a single word.

As much as I like Ray, I think if you had have kept her on, it would have been really nice and sweet.

[05:56]

The way that Sylv and Bonnie are nice and sweet together, we wouldn't have had the sort of rough edges we get next year and the year after with Ace.

But that being said, I do love her and Silv together in this story.

I think she's extraordinary.

You know how close it was that Dorothy almost got the part. because Sophie and Ace are the same person, really.

But, you know, because you remember that, you remember that on every letter that went through, has own leathers.

Like on a black man's back in the room.

Did they actually swap was originally Sarah Griffiths going to play...

I don't know about that, but Sophie was definitely up for this part, wasn't she?

So initial auditions for Ray and Ace, it was everyone was auditioning for both parts.

Elizabeth Spriggs.

Richard Briars.

The shortlist for Ace for...

Sophie Eldred and an actress called Cassie Stewart.

Yes.

And the shortlist for Ray was Sarah Griffiths and George Slade.

[06:58]

And Lynn Gardner was could be either.

But she was cast as Ray.

Not Sarah Griffiths at first.

And famously, while she was practising on her scooter, she fell and broke her leg and she wasn't going to be recovered in time. was nowhere near the mechanics department at the time.

But yeah, so she contacted the Doctor Who Production office who wrote back to her saying, look, you know, we're really sorry to hear that.

We understand entirely.

You will be paid in full.

Oh, read had her own leathers, do you?

So they paid Lingardner in full for the 3 episodes and she will be heard next week in Dragonfire as the Tanoy voice.

Nice world.

So there's a career, say, for you.

But yeah, so they called in Sarah Griffiths instead.

Who is who is just lovely.

You know, I mean, she's gorgeous.

She looks the part.

Utterly believable.

And I, there's a scene in there which I think is very important for establishing Silv's character, where Billy Ray's love interest is singing to Delta, and Ray is utterly heartbroken and she goes to walk away and the doctor asks her to dance because he doesn't know what else to do.

[08:09]

And she's just like, yes, thank you.

I'd love to.

And he has no idea what he seems to have, no idea what she's doing.

He's leading.

He even, I don't think he even gets to ask.

He goes to ask you a question.

I wonder if you would.

I'd love to.

And then there's that really quite lovely scene where he's consoling her.

Do you know, this is somewhere that the show has never, ever gone before.

Niceness.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

So you've got this production.

It's all on location.

So there's no space corridors.

We're not on the planet Zog.

Everything's on location.

Everything.

They even built the interior of the bus in one of the chalet corridors.

Do you know that was full of rats?

Yes, yeah.

Some of the production crew stayed there and very quickly didn't because it was a it was a real wing of a holiday camp. had been used to shoot parts of Heidi High, who starring Philip Maddock's own daughter, Dane Ruth Maddock.

Do you remember?

Did you ever see...

I did see it, yeah.

It's really funny.

It's the same people who wrote, are you being served?

and it ain't half hot, mum, and all those other lovely things.

[09:09]

Dad's army.

Probably.

The casting crew referred to Delta and the Bannerman as Heidi Who.

Oh, that's right.

And previously, Time in the Rani was the two, was the 2 Ranis.

But this was filmed in a disused part of a holiday camp.

So it was this holiday camp with 3 areas.

This was called the yellow camp, and you'll notice all the walls are yellow.

But so this place was built in the early 60s, which was deemed close enough architecturally.

And the other 2 camps in the area had been modernised, and this one was due to be modernised.

Gary Downey found out about it.

And they said, oh, we'd love to have Doctor Who, and they were incredibly helpful and accommodating.

The only things that change were, There were some scripted scenes on roundabout, like one of the spinning merry-go-round things.

That, what Mellon Burton were meant to be tied to.

And unfortunately, on the day, it was being used by real campers and the management were like, look, sorry, you know, we have given you a whole wing.

We can't really.

Oh, no, no, it's fine.

We'll just tie them over here.

I thought you were going to say it was just the congealed rats. the mechanism.

[10:11]

But yeah, they put, they put a giant tunnel on the site, which is where they filmed the entire spaceship.

Yeah. bloody dawn.

Yeah, Ken...

I feel so...

He's the most meta thing to ever happen to Doctor Who.

It's amazing.

And it's fantastic. calculated to...

It's bizarre.

Well, it's calculated to make the Doctor Who Monster book.

People hate it because Doctor Who is serious science fiction and doesn't have light entertainment.

People like Ken Dodd.

You know what they're doing?

They're saying, oh, you think silver, you're criticising silver, all of these things, will give you Doddie, who's the meta silver on every level?

It's kind of sad in a way, because in the script, he is scripted as like a cross between a game show host and a lizard.

And the thing was, he came up to Sylvester.

After rehearsal on locationing, just kind of said, you know, am I, is this okay?

Like, because I know the character's meant to be very large, but I don't want to go too over the top and end up spoiling it.

[11:15]

He had done dramatic performances, and he's actually quite good.

He puts in fake teeth, so he looks normal and greases his hair back. true.

And the problem is, Sylvester, I think, quite rightly thought, you know, this man is a legend is someone I really respect.

I can't tell him how to act.

That's up to the director.

And so still said, oh, look, you know, I think it's fine, but go have a word with the director.

Chris Klough, it seems kind of had the same opinion and just said, oh, no, no, darling, follow your instincts.

And Silv was in the box during Dodd's death scene.

When I say the box, I mean, the outside broadcast van where they're monitoring everything.

And it was originally longer and he's just sitting there and Clough turns to JNT and says, oh, yeah, he's not very good.

Don't worry, we'll cut it down.

And, you know, of course, Silv, he's quite mild manner.

He doesn't say anything, but he just kind of thought, no, no, get out there and tell him. wants to do good.

And the thing is, I think...

They do cut him down a fair bit, and I think the brevity helps make the character work.

And there's a few times where the mask slips like when Mel says, oh, we're meant to be going on a spaceship, not an old bus.

[12:21]

Oh, bus. is a very expensive conversion.

You know, he kind of loses the chippiness there and when Murray hits it, you know, you can tell his theatrical side is more of a, is more of an act than...

Yeah, there is an element of subtlety to the character.

You know who was 1st who the part was written for and 1st cast, but he wasn't available.

We've touched on him and he would appreciate the gesture just very recently in our colin audios, Christopher Biggins.

Oh, yes. written for Christopher Biggins.

And do you know why he turned it down?

Yeah, it's too small a part and I want to play a villain.

That's why he turned it down.

That kind of game.

I'm Nero.

Yeah.

Clav Dives, and he was too.

He's fabulous as Banto, Zane.

Yeah, yeah.

So we can forgive him for being a prat for this one.

You know how the 2nd one was?

He's actually one of my favourite British comedians.

Bob Monkhouse.

[13:21]

Does anyone know who he is?

He's horribly dead, although he does make a lovely appearance in Toast of London with Matt Berry as someone faking him.

He was he was just one of those really, but he was had a very high IQ, really witty raconteurs.

He did the golden shot and six, he was one of those 60s guys like Bruce Forsyth or Eric Morkam, but smarter and clever.

But Dottie actually surpassed them all.

Ken Dodd was in the Guinness book of World Records for years for being able to keep a joke pattern going for the longest one line of jokes.

He did it for almost 4 days.

I'm really not kidding.

Look it up.

So how does that work?

Does he just keep sort of starts telling the joke and then just keeps interrupting himself until he gets to the punchline 4 days later.

I think he's taking Nathan's pills.

I think that might be.

It's like a wide mouth frog joke.

He just, you know, comes to another animal.

I've heard him do it on just a minute.

I've heard him do it on just a minute just this year, which is, I think, it's in its 748th season.

It's actually older than me.

The radio series.

[14:22]

Still hosted by friend of the podcast, Nicholas Parsons.

We own him.

Yeah, we own him.

But Dottie just did a whole minute of just one liners.

They're just silly jokes, but of course he's been in the business since before time.

Yes, that's right.

He's kind of like Betty White was born before sliced bread.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So sliced bread is the best thing since Betty White.

Oh my god, my bladder just leaked.

We have had a lot of tea.

But I think Dodd's death scene...

I think the Tollmaster's death scene.

It is awful.

And it kind of cements the 2 halves of the show because we had this happy holiday romp, almost a beach blanket bingo movie.

And then we have Don Henderson coming in and smashing the whole thing up.

Oh, Don Henderson.

You know the rebels will take over if you slutty fast around the place like you're doing.

[15:22]

Do you remember that line in Star Wars when he says you keep it up like this.

The rebels are going to sort youse out.

And he goes off and has a chip buddy in a canalaga.

He's in Star Wars.

Yes, he is.

Gar Rock, yeah.

Yeah, he's in a new hope around around the table.

He's not the guy who gets choked by Vader, but he is in that scene.

He would have been up for it too.

He was the Michael Hutchins of Doctor Who.

The cannibalistic ham.

I think that I think that he is a very kind of low rent villain, not in the sense of giving a bad performance.

No, he took this very seriously.

He was always writing notes to everyone. them to play as well as him.

He plays it Superstar.

He loved Doctor Who, too. really wanted to do this for a long time.

But this is a conception of science fiction that if you're a giant fan of earth shock.

You're going to hate it because instead of being about various space races, You love Earth Shop. a huge fan.

Second only to Warriors of the Deep.

You know, the universe is populated by fleets of spaceships, you know, run by Santarans and Daleks, and that it's all very gone and all very serious.

[16:31]

And now we have a sort of hitchhikers guide conception of what the universe is like with toll booths and special offers and holiday trips.

And the everyday and the inane grown up with the meta and the mega. gorgeous.

And so you've got these sort of silly aliens that in the script, they're described as looking like artichokes, actually, in the novelisation.

That's like the Galaxy Quest.

It's wonderful.

I mean, it is just a terrific new fresh, exciting conception of what science fiction is.

It's for the people at home.

It's not for, it's not Babylon fine. for people who like jokes.

That's exactly right.

And then you go to a real place in the recent past, in the lifetime of the older people watching at home.

Something that's really something that's that's really sort of recognisable.

I think it's the 1st time that Doctor Who has gone back in time, such a short distance.

Yeah, I mean, the, I was thinking about it last night.

[17:32]

The only other one that kind of qualifies would be Morden undead.

And even then, the journey back in time is so close that it might as, yeah, it might as well be the current day.

So this is 28 years.

The previous record was about 38 years for the abominable snowmen.

Yeah, so that's the 30s, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

So it's the 1st time we've gone back in time sort of to post-war Britain.

So it's a completely new territory for the show.

And then the show is set in a sort of working class environment.

It's not set in a space station or a research centre or near a cyclotron.

You can actually see Pertwe's curling tongs just riding.

Did you know that was part of McCoy's pitch to Cart Mall and then to JNT?

He said, I want to be the 1st working class doctor.

Yeah, I'm, I totally, totally get it.

Yeah, it's wonderful.

And it picks up on something that we mentioned in the Colin retrospective, and throughout Colin's era as well, part of what was really lost in that era was a lack of stories set on recognisable either modern day or in this case recent past earth.

[18:44]

You've got one episode.

You've got Attack of the Sidemen episode one.

Yeah, that's it.

Whereas you might argue that other than time in the Rani, although we've touched on that, it is very much of the present, if you like, is a metaphor, but Paradise Towers could easily just be anywhere, you know, after London.

Yeah, but again, it's not in a world of space stations and spaceships, which is what the universe has been like up till now.

It's more joyful and children can play it because you can imagine that the school bus now actually is the never really shuffle.

Yeah, yeah.

And what isn't the buster stroke of genius for that exact reason?

It was this unwanted BBC Enterpol.

BBC bought it for this and you're going to see it again in Greatest Show of the Garlic scene.

Yeah, yeah. and bought it for £3000 And John Nathan Turner's boss says, oh, God, you're mad.

Well, bought it for £3000 used in this story, used in that story.

She ended up at Doctor Who exhibition, cheaper than a prop, actually semifunctional.

And it, rather than, you know, building a spaceship.

It makes it recognisable.

[19:44]

And then we're told, actually, it's a spaceship.

We put a funky engine in the back.

What was it?

Yes, exactly. right.

Yeah, exactly right.

This is the doctor who does it.

It's best.

And for some, and also for some reason, there's that bit where the doctor shows Burton and Ray inside the TARDIS to prove his credentials and we hated that in the Davidson era. hated it, yes.

But here it's so lovely and sweet.

And he comes out energised and excited, Burton is, I think, my favourite.

It's so wonderful.

That line about the happy hot Hearts holiday, plus Bolton is one of the funniest things.

He's lovely.

There's a lot of, you know, we're going to, we're going to touch on Arthurian legends in another story further on, but this actually has got quite a bit of, you know, being a well story.

It's really touching on a lot.

It also has one of my favourite people of all time, you know, it's stubby K. Yeah, I'm not sure that that plot is particularly successful.

It was grafted on.

Kartmore was told to or was told we need more humour.

This came from Jonathan Powell.

So it was added onto the cold script.

[20:45]

But don't forget, Stubby, okay.

I grew up with watching guys and dolls, and if you've never seen it, Have you ever seen the thing and he sings the sit down, you rock on the boat song?

is a genius of comedy timing?

And haven't you noticed if you want to play these sorts of parts, get a tried and true comedian because they won't stick it?

Yeah, he plays it straight.

Where in Wales, in England.

Yeah.

And there's something just terribly sweet about it too.

You know, they're like they're agents of the American government, but they're just sort of in a tent, you know. imagine the only thing that could have made it better if they'd cast Morecambe and wine.

Who was still alive, probably?

The strange thing is, though, these 2 who do end up being a smaller part of the plot than Nintended.

You know, they were kind of grafted on, but then Malcolm Cole and Andrew Cartmel went for it and they're like, we're going to give these guys a proper story arc.

So originally the story was set in 1957, launch of Spupnik.

And the idea was the satellite there tracking is an American satellite.

[21:45]

Yes.

And the reason we've never heard about it is the bus crashes into it.

And which, of course, is why it looks like Sputnik.

Yeah.

And so the whole, their kind of whole subplot is we've got to find this thing because we're actually not working in the UK out of choice.

You know, this is our last chance to make good and we can actually go home and work in America.

And that was their through line.

Do you know why it was moved up?

moved up 2 years?

Was it the development of rock and roll and the rock and roll was more accepted by 1959?

I wish it was that pure and interesting.

It was because JNT and Keth McCulloch agreed that they could squeeze in more known songs that McCulloch could...

He's in the band.

You can watch him on stage with the pony turtle, swishing around.

There still flies on him.

I don't think it worked for a second. that they were going to release a Christmas album of this soundtrack.

Can you imagine?

It's a great way to get that inheritance early, isn't it?

Just sit in front of your grandmother in front of that for an hour and watch what happens.

[22:47]

And do think, though, that the music is really great.

Oh, I knew you were going to like it.

Devil's Gallop.

Yes, it's Dick Barton, special agent.

Brendan is actually Timey Wimey and was around in 1946.

Why is it on radio four?

But of course, I knew it when this played out as that bit from Monty Python.

Whenever a joke thing happens.

It really is counterintuitive to any of the pathos they're trying to build though, isn't it?

I love it.

I think it works.

It just creates such a light atmosphere.

I'm in the music at the dance as well.

You know, like having recognisable songs, which we've done... when?

But when have we ever done that?

Yeah, um...

The Last Chance Saloon.

The Honourable Aubrey Waits, you know, like when did we last have popular music on the show?

And God, you know, who would you say?

Are you playing in Inferno in the Inferno Disco?

I don't know, actually.

Probably more library music.

Yeah.

Swinging, wasn't it?

We got old Duffer and 2 waitresses because the hottest spot in town.

Much later.

I think that was probably in Wales too.

[23:47]

Paperback writer in Evil of the Dalek.

Yeah, that's true.

Who would use 3 guitars mood for 115 episodes?

I ask you.

No one, I know.

But yeah, I enjoy the music here.

And the reason it's all done by Kef on a synthesiser is cheap.

Yeah, it was, it was, okay, it was cheaper to pay Kev to re-record the songs and then pay the license for a re-recording than it was to pay for the original recording.

Now, things have actually changed now with music licensing.

And in general, not, there are specific cases, but in general, music licensing has become cheaper.

They've woken up to that.

But also, like it's a sort of a crummy 1950s rock and roll night at a holiday.

With Mary Island.

With the mechanic, the weed vocal.

Yeah.

And they all look like Sicorax on stage.

Especially that Kef McCullough.

No, I think that's really wonderful.

The one thing that I think is totally horribly wrong. is steady yourselves.

[24:49]

Obviously, the bus exploding at the end of episode two.

Okay, I saw this as a whatever age, 1st to uni.

I thought, no, that's wrong.

Yeah, it's cruel.

It's especially wrong because it's not really mentioned again.

And that's unfortunate because it was mentioned again in the script.

But they had to cut stuff out and they kind of went, well, that's surplus to requirement.

It's like, okay, well maybe if the bus exploding is surplus to requirement, maybe just let them get away.

Yeah, it makes no difference to the plot.

I mean, they're not doing it to get rid of them so we don't have to worry about them anymore.

They escape.

What if they escape?

It's really...

Yeah, it's just to tell you that Gavrock's evil in case you missed episode Wamori blew up a whole bunch of green rubber people.

Yeah, and shot Ken Dawn.

Like what do you want?

He's definitely evil.

Didn't you love that the Shimmer and people were actually those little plastic soldiers from Toy Story?

Yes, it's amazing.

John Nathan Turner and Andrew Cartwell, though, were really annoyed.

Because the script calls for them to be half reptilian, half insectoid with piercing green eyes.

[25:52]

And the makeup artist kind of looked at the budget and went, okay, I can give you literally this mask made out of a broken draconian.

That's what it was.

And you know what?

As a kid, I was intrigued by the fact that the women were so beautiful and the men were so hideous by human ideas.

Because it's because they're drones.

Yeah, exactly Yeah, and they're bees.

Can we get onto the troubling matter of Billy?

Yes, I'm curious to hear what you think of this.

What do you think, Nathan?

I live tweeted when we were live tweeting.

And this is part of the Genesis, I think, of Doctor Who facts, I live tweeted that Billy discovered later to his horror that male shimmerans have no external genitalia.

I don't know that Billy Herd either.

I think Billy is a walking talking plastic bottom.

We can see that.

Have you noticed how quickly he falls for her after having absolutely no interest in Ray?

And come on, it's it's the 50s.

It's in Wales.

[26:53]

There ain't a lot of bint about.

If he was a strident heterosexual lad.

No, I'm quite serious about this, he probably would have been on for Ray even for a quickie, but there is no attention at all.

To me, he's ostensibly queer.

Just like every man ace has ever fallen for in the history.

Everything.

There's a whole lot of queer theory in this. in these 3 years.

But almost instantly.

Just as bees do, and insects do with pheromones and with ultrasonic signals.

And of course, we've seen her little, you know, sequence behind the ears.

She just puts a little something behind her ears to attract men, as Liz Patterson used to say, Joan Collins did it with her ankles.

She does it with sequence.

Billy is inculcated into...

Because they need a male.

They need a male.

Because she's the queen B. No, he wasn't. yeah he wasn't even queer.

He is so married to the task far and beyond.

No, no, there is some external influence at play ferments.

And let's just stop and think, what do most female insects or queens of hives do with their males?

[27:57]

Ah, so she's going to bite his head off after coin.

Well, they'll often also ingest their genitalia and feed off that as an added source of protein and DNA and hormones as they as they continue with their pregnancy cycle.

Or yes, they bite their heads off. certain other things they do as well.

No, he is an unwilling member of this Frisson.

And I think Ray has every reason to be worried.

God, I thought the most disturbing thing about this story was Mel's incomprehensible racism at a green baby.

Because she sees a green baby and her 1st reaction is to scream.

For God's sake, woman, you've encountered phallic yonic plant people.

She's a big racist.

I think she has womb terror.

Wibbly wobbly womb terror.

Doctor Who and the womb terror.

The terror of the womb.

I didn't think that worked initially because you've got the green, slimy, animatronic baby and then in the next scene, it's an actual baby sort of haphazardly made up.

[28:57]

And I kind of thought, oh, really?

That's sort of...

Vandral China.

That's right. a little bit crummy.

And I can understand people who are not sold on that.

But they don't know where she gets the jumper outfits.

Like, are they just like compressible IKEA phone mattresses?

Where does Billy Getty's gorgeous little they exude them.

So that is actually part of his flesh.

Well, yeah, it grows with the princess.

So it must be.

So you never heard.

I don't know how they had children.

Yeah, really.

No.

So, so, you know, they're bees and and so they have pupa stages and all of that sort of thing.

They have drones and queens and stuff.

I think that's sort of work.

She does look like a young honour blackman or something.

So she probably is going to eat him.

Well, not only that.

She was also an auditionee.

Don't. to play Romana.

Well, actually, that could have been quite interesting.

She does seem a fair bit older than Billy.

Is that just me?

I always thought that she seemed dumb.

She's older than me.

[29:58]

Maybe a good 10 years, yeah.

Everyone looks young to me.

She does have that certain that certain cast, doesn't she?

Belinda Mayne.

I was thinking Lenny Maine, and I knew that was wrong.

Because we're all excited to have seen Alpha Centauri last week as we record.

Oh dear.

Yeah, I mean, to be honest, Richard, I'd never I'd never considered that and it is rather disturbing.

What I kind of saw when I watched it recently is, of course, it's 1959, we're still in an era where, I mean, God, even now we're still in that era, unfortunately, where a single mother is looked down on.

And Billy's 1st reaction when he sees that Delta has a baby and no husband is to protect them.

I found that to be a very noble thing.

But he even goes into their cabin.

That's a sacking offence at Butlin's or anywhere else.

Yeah, of course.

Being a single mother and being out about it was also not something that was permitted in holiday camps.

[30:59]

But I think remember that Doctor Who isn't really strictly representing 1959 in England and it's just using kind of like the incidental features of it.

And the show does this now.

Like when it presents a past, it will often uh, try and present, and will it always tries to present the past as we conceive it in 2017 or whatever.

I mean, that doesn't worry me so much.

I do think that there is something a bit sweet about making, maybe not your kind of horrific love crafting version of a love story, but making the end of it centre around a love story again in a way that is bound to annoy the Doctor Who Monster Book Brigade.

I do remember a fan, I can't think who it was.

I'm probably going to traduce someone really horribly here.

It's probably a listener who, um, had a video recording of episode one of the greatest show in the galaxy, which cut out the bit where Flower Child and Bellboy Kiss because you, you know, that's kissing.

[32:07]

And, and, and so having a romance, and then just so audaciously having a vocal soundtrack for the 1st time since the Last Chance saloon, when we're singing Here's to the Future and Love is the answer.

And I just, I really like that.

I think it's so fresh and so different.

I even really like that as a song.

To be honest, I have listened to the tracks from this that are on the soundtrack albums.

And I think they do a pretty good job.

It's kind, it's kind of cheesy.

Would you have bought it for Christmas?

Yep.

I think but do you remember the 25th anniversary album, which I've got it in their stuff and Dominic I might have listened to it.

I love the 8891 overture.

It's, it's, um, it starts off with the explosion in the 1st few bars of the theme.

But then it's a medley of kef music, including music that was never used on the show for a reason.

But it's just this incredible overture of his oeuvre.

I love Kev McCulloch's music a lot more than other people.

[33:10]

I think there's 2 scores where he really gets it wrong, which is Paradise Towers and Battlefield.

Oh my goodness, yes.

But I think his other 2 this season, he gets right.

Remembrance, he gets right.

Remembrance is good.

Yeah.

I like, I, you know, I like the rest of his stuff and even Paradise Towers and Battlefield.

There are bits I like.

There's just bits that are atonal, but my favourite bit and I didn't mention it 2 weeks ago, so I have to mention it now, is the bit from Time in the Rani episode 4 where they're putting the bangles around the brain and all the geniuses are escaping and it quotes the Doctor Who theme.

It's this action music.

It's this heroic thing of, yeah, where, you know, we're finally getting it right.

And it feels like Sylvester's doctor is saying triumphantly.

Yes, now I have arrived.

Do you know, it's the 3rd story in a row as well, where the threat is defeated by everyone...

Yes. different tasks to contribute to a plan.

Yes.

And they all work together.

And I think that that's why I like Hawk and Y smaller here because they're part of like this big ensemble, that we like, and Garonwi's there and we're always...

[34:22]

Yeah, but again, that's why they should not have been killed off.

Yeah.

That's, it, it felt like a little moment of say would ringing in just a, yeah, one of his oral threats.

You know, I think it's one of those things that was in the original storyline, and because it's so inconsequential, it gets overlooked.

Yeah, I think, unlike the say would principle of, if you, if you have a violent character, you must show them being violent, you must show the effect of that violence, I think it's, it's an oversight.

But I also think that they learn from it because I can't readily come up with an example from now to the end of the series where they have a death that is so meaningless and nasty.

Except for next story when all the people evacuating Ice World get horribly blown up.

Even so, I think that...

That actual act that actual act in itself is a natural progression of the plot.

I think the reaction I think the reaction after it is worse than in this story.

[35:27]

I don't think this is a natural, you know, outcome of the way this plot has been going.

Yeah, no, no, not in Delta.

I mean, I mean in Dragon Fire next week.

I do tune in for that one, yeah.

I do think the one positive of it is it gives Bonnie a really good acting moment where she's where she's facing Gavrock and she's saying you've killed them all, you know, and for, especially for Bonnie, who is a good actress and has been given like a character composed of 100% cardboard, thank you, Messes Cornell Day and topic.

To have that scene with Don Henderson, who is an excellent actor, and of course, XYY man, um, you know, he played Bullman's Strangers, 3 different series.

It's always playing the same tough guy part.

Yeah, yeah.

I think, I think that's, it gives Bonnie a really effective moment.

And it leads to Silv's 1st really big convincing, in my opinion, confrontation with a villain where he comes to see Gavrock and tells him you're going to lose because all you believe in is death.

[36:35]

And he just says, right, I'm taking these people and I'm leaving now.

And I love that cliffhanger of, oh, I think I've got a little too far.

It's the shot.

It's the final point of view shot from where Don Henderson is where all 3 of them look up sort of rather guiltily and apprehensively and then we go to the closing sting.

I think it's such a great cliffhanger.

And there's a hilarious blooper from it where Silv walks towards the camera and says his line.

But when he says, I think I've gone a little too far, he has actually missed his mark and he's behind the pillowcase.

You just hear something behind the camera.

Yeah, Sylvester, you have.

You need to go one step back.

Everyone fooling about.

Did you know with these two?

And the one following was Dragonfly.

We touched on, they were made as one story for budget reasons.

I think they did actually start that the previous year.

So I know all of the production codes of every Doctor Who story, obviously.

[37:35]

4 Q. steady on.

That's how it's going to be.

The power of Malcolm Croll.

So the last 2 stories of last season.

So the vervoids and what I'd like to call Time Incorporated these days.

I think that's 7C.

They have the same.

Yeah, 7 C one and 7 C2.

And so they do that from year on in.

Star Wars robots.

And so, you know, one of them is all on location and the other ones entirely in the studio and it makes for 16 parter.

But having all location stuff is just terrific.

It really gives us freshness and hope.

You know, this was meant to be the serious script though.

It was discussed with Ian Briggs.

And Dragonfire was written as a comedy.

Yeah, we'll talk more next week about what Dragon Fire was written as, but yeah, this was going to be the serious one.

And just in the natural process of writing, this became more comedic.

[38:36]

And Andrew Cartmel went back to Ian Briggs and said, look, I'm really sorry, we need to take the jokey stuff out and make it a bit more serious.

And Briggs apparently said, for reasons we'll discuss next week.

Actually, there's some elements I think aren't working and they are the jokey elements.

Yeah, I'm happy to take those out.

But it is a beginning of the sort of hitchhikers of vacation of Doctor Who's vision of the future and what science fiction is.

And so next week we get a shopping centre in space.

But this one also crosses over, you know, with Tollbooth everything.

With Victoria Woods view of the future.

Do you remember watching Hugh Lloyd on Victoria Wooders seen on TV in the 80s?

No.

Yeah, Garonwi was in that all the time.

He was also in, I'm just trying to think what else he was.

Yeah, he was in Hancock's half hour because Kenneth Williams didn't transfer over to the TV version of Hancock because Hancock, he just, I don't want to work with him anymore.

I want to.

And yeah, and then he had his own show called Hugh and I, but Hugh Lloyd was like, again, there's all these big names turning up.

[39:37]

He's meant to be Merlin.

Did you know that?

That's the footnotes.

Yeah, yeah. you know, fan theories have been, oh, he's some sort of time lord.

But in Cole's interpretation.

He's just a man who is incredibly in tune with nature.

And if you are incredibly in tune with nature, nothing can surprise you because it's all part of the natural order.

And that's why nothing surprises him.

He just he just kind of goes, oh, okay, that's what's happening now.

So when he's saying things like, I shall talk to my bees.

Of course he's not speaking literally.

But what he's kind of saying is, they are nature, and I am nature, and I'll listen to the nature of the world.

The green man or the yes.

Yeah, it's a lot more human.

The alien interpretation we as fans, some of us are fans, have tried to apply to it.

Yeah, it has to be something from the Doctor Who monster book, Brendan.

It can't be bad.

No, no, it's it's just a different human way.

Oh, looking at it.

Turn the Hunter, the whole, yeah.

It could have been Sarah Sutton, really, couldn't it?

But it wasn't, it was you, Lloyd.

With a moon stallion?

[40:38]

I think it's lovely that he's the one who delivers the expository dialogue about how Delta's child is developing, not directly, but he's the one who explains the life cycle of the bees and obviously meant to understand that as an explanation for what. for the entire thing.

And he gets the last shot.

Yes, Sylvester.

Yeah.

And that's the thing.

People have kind of hinged on that.

Oh, he's a time lord, whereas Cole's thing is just like, okay, so he's seen a box disappear.

That box disappears.

That's what it does.

Happy travels, doctor.

And he walks off.

I think he's Merlin.

I'm happy to take it.

Yeah, yeah, without the ginger hair.

What a lovely character to create, you know, rather than a mercenary who's working for the Daleks rather than...

You know, yeah, rather than a scientist who wants to exploit plant people as slave labour.

No, we'll have a beekeeper who's just...

Grow rude faces on them.

Yes.

In fact, maybe it's telling that the villains are space mercenaries who are wearing the helmets from Earthshock and are coming in to make a really fun story, really sort of terribly boring and make lots of nods to 20th century cinema.

[41:50]

This whole season is also nodding, not just on post-modern theory.

This is Kurosawa's run and Kegamusha. where I saw summarised war.

Banners.

Yeah, yeah. just that the Japanese armies did.

Ron is beautiful.

His take on King Lear, it was later 80s. just gorgeous.

Yellow banners and red bears.

Beautiful to look at.

Which you're on right now at Sydney Film Festival.

Friend of the podcast, Greg Miller is sitting in a cinema right now watching all these these Japanese, which again, are all takes on Shakespeare.

And I mean, you were saying earlier how seriously Don Henderson took this.

Things like his own ham.

Well, the ham was cured it himself.

The ham was his idea.

He said to um, he said to Gary Downey, how about I eat a raw ham and Gary and Gary Downey pretty much said, I'm not having you on the trots yet.

No more cannibalism on this show, lovey.

So.

Well done.

So he got a ham covered in cling wrap and put smoked salmon over the top.

[42:50]

And that's what that's what Gavrock's eating.

So indulgent.

But in terms of the Bannermen, the reddish pinkish tongues, that was Don Henderson's idea.

And the sort of hissing battle cry, that was Don Henderson saying... to be in the room for that listener.

The these people are an army.

They should have some kind of recognisable thing.

He like, you know, I know it's not all about us.

So how about something small like this?

And Cyclops, X-Men bicycle glasses.

Yeah, I still want a pair of those.

I think you can go down to paddies and get one.

What's changed from a fiver, though?

Yeah, no, I think I think the Bannerman being so...

So utterly evil, if you like.

So deliberate, you know, they're dressed in it's black and red.

They're aggressive.

There's no redeeming features.

I think it's a deliberate effort to counterpoint that with the gentleness of all the other characters and Garonway living with nature and Delta trying to make her species survive and Ray being in love with Billy, but being in love with him enough to understand that.

[43:58]

She's not what he wants.

Now, I'm still looking at this, Richard, as the idea of free will rather than pheromones.

But I think that's the thing.

These 2 forces come together.

And then at the end, we get the song, which is the message of the story.

Love is the answer.

I'm not necessarily saying it's a conscious dig at Eric Saywood, and I don't think it is.

Like Cartmel...

I'm like, say, Christopher Hamilton Bitmead, who has been critical of the script's editors before him, in a professional sense.

I've never really heard Cartmel sort of pointing at Eric Seywood and saying this was wrong, that was wrong.

He kind of says too much.

Too much was revealed about the doctor, so we wanted him to be more mysterious.

But I think it is just a rejection in general, a violent storytelling.

And the kind of might is right thing.

And it's saying, actually, no, what all you need is love.

Well, I mean, there's not much interest in sketching out the Bannermen and who they are and why they are.

They're not supposed to be... not the focus of the story.

[44:58]

They're not what we're interested in.

They're there to motivate the flight of the Shimmerons, and that's really, you know, all they're there for.

Which was the title of this episode.

Almost right up until they made the title cards.

It was the title of the episode all through the actual filming period.

So it started off as Flight of the Shimmer and Briefly Delta and the Bannerman, Flight of the Shimmer in again, and then Delta and the Bannerman, I think, literally 2 days before they made the opening credits.

It was pushing the rock and roll thing, because James he thought it sounded like a 50s band.

And also like an Echo in the Barney, which was also meant to sound like a 50s. during broadcast.

A a Merseyside band contacted the production office and said, you do know where called Delta and the Battle.

No. no idea how much truth there was to it.

Like they didn't even respond and the band never wrote in again.

But yeah.

Second Doctor Who story to have and in the title.

Silurian, so everywhere.

No, that doesn't count.

So which one are you talking about?

Oh, yes, of course.

[45:59]

Tera and the autumn.

Actually, we should rename all of them.

Horror and Fang Rock.

Doctor Who and the Silurians.

The power and croll.

He didn't write for the series again.

Ever again.

He said it was absolutely horrendous.

Oh, no.

No, he was very tried by it.

He found it tiresome, I believe.

He had watched Doctor Who was a kid and he did he did enjoy it.

I believe he and Cartmel did discuss him writing for the series again, but it just didn't come off.

Bugger off.

No, he said no.

He said no.

Yeah, he said, no, I was exhausted by it.

There were so many rewrites and changes and he said, I couldn't keep up and the fee was burnt a 3rd of the way through because they just kept making him do rewrites and rewrites.

Part two.

Apparently not working working for the 1st season, 2005.

I pick for a lot of those, right?

I think it's the... the funnest and wittiest script we've had in a long time.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think I think possibly since Frontios.

[46:59]

And Wyatt script wasn't bad either.

No, no, there's maybe the realisation.

But, yeah, this is stirring.

But I mean, it's more fun, I think, than Frontios.

I think Frontios is really accomplished.

I really like it a great deal.

Yeah, it's not fun though, is it?

Well, it's also a space colony and a spaceship and meteorite.

Proper 70s space opera.

Yeah.

Yeah, this just feels so fun and breezy.

And again, we get Silv being melancholy at the end when he's talking about love.

And, you know, you really get the impression in that scene that he knows what he's talking about through bitter and painful personal experience without him having to say, oh, I've got a granddaughter living in the 22nd century, you know.

I locked her out.

And on a war-torn radioactive, binge bit of the South Thames where the fish were rancid.

And that's just the one she married.

You never really get over your 1st time, do you?

[48:13]

Dill is now, we take off from South Wales now, and, uh, you know, I think we need to stock up the freezer, so it's off to Iceworld with Dragonfire next week, do come back for that.

You can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at FTE podcast on Twitter.

Over on Bondfinger.

We are on a top of things with the Pierce Brosnan era of James Bond.

You can find that at bondfinger.com, bondfinger on Facebook and Apple Podcasts and at bondfingercast on Twitter.

Don't forget, you can still vote in our Peter Davison commentary extravaganza.

Your choices are for Doomsday, Arc of Infinity, Enlightenment, and Resurrection of the Daleks.

Resurrection and the dialogues.

Until next week, may none of your bees actually be stock footage of locusts, seriously, pause it and have a look.

Thank you very much for listening and good night.

Good night. night That was Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Bottomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

[49:26]

Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, logo designed by Anthony Wells.

This episode, Bitter and Painful, was recorded on the 12th of June, 2017.

The next episode will be released on the 16th July.

Delta could have saved herself a lot of trouble if she just had access to dating apps.

Queen seeks slave drone for companionship and enslaved propagation must own, own leathers.

Delta and the Bennermen, 12th of April.

It's not the 12th of April, you silly man. 12th of June.

Sorry, I got excited.

You silly man.

Suddenly, suddenly.

Suddenly we're all just footnoting shard now.

You silly man.

Doctor.

I'm going to tell my Williams.