Full of the Doctor

Hello, dear, listener, and welcome back to Flight through Entirety. The only Doctor Who podcast whose name is a promise we've made which is why it looks like, will be doing this for the rest of our lives. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm Todd. And I'm Simon. Well, we've got catchphrases, nursery rhymes, low effort fairytale monsters, non-chronological storytelling, a mystery solved by reevaluating the semantics of a sentence, a phone call that goes wrong, people springing back to life, and a startlingly upsetting new rule about time travel. And everyone seems to be unhealthily obsessed with the personal details of our titular character. So, who is the doctor? Let's find out as we discuss the name of the doctor. I have to say that I don't hate this episode, but I do think... Well I don't know. Well, we're a Doctor Who podcast. Yeah, we hate territory. It is Moffat vamping though for 45 minutes, isn't it? Yes, it is basically a mission to the unknown to the 50th anniversary Dalek Master Plan. Basically, but I think it works for that. It is not a traditional end of season finale, and it's fair enough to criticise it for that. But I think it manages to lead us into the 50th anniversary without being needlessly cheesy or too self-indulgent and yeah, I really, really, really like it. I really like it too. I just like to say, but it is very different. It just sort of just happens. Like, I mean, it just starts and you'll suddenly, well, I'm swept away by all the 1st Dr. Clara stuff and her seeing all the different incarnations of the doctor. Listeners, do you like my voice today? It's going to be like this throughout the entire podcast. How many packets have you smoked yesterday? Like all those clips of the doctors. I was talking to Brendan earlier and I said, Colin is the only one. You don't actually have, they shut off. They mustn't been able to find one in all of his clips. There must be some reason why. Everybody else gets a moment with old footage of Clara. Do you know what I mean? I think the choice of clips is very strange, and there may be a technical reason for it. Like having pertwee from the 5 doctors or, you know, refusing to just completely memory hole arc of infinity. Like, those are very strange choices. And also that weird cliffhanger from Dragonfire as well. It is odd. And there must have been some sort of technical reasons for it. Yeah, it's basically just a hangover from Stephen Moffatt's original script idea where he essentially does write new scenes for all the doctors to be in. And so Colin was meant to be seen at the sparking control panel of a spaceship. Right. You know? And Silv was meant to be seen hanging from a girder over a battlefield like that Doctor Who magazine cover that one time. Right, right. And so that eventually gets translated to the clip from Dragonfire where he's doing the same thing. And yeah, I think it's entirely budgetary. Like as much as this is the lead into the 50th anniversary, it is also the tail end of the season. It's not the last episode produced, which I believe is the Crimson Horror, but it is towards the end of the season, and Matt and Jenna were being pulled to do reshoots for previous episodes and were going out to do pre-shoots for the following episodes. So everyone's being pulled pulled from Poletta Post. But I remember at the time watching this and when Hartnell appeared, listener, this is the actual noise I made. I'd like to apologise to any of the dogs. Then when the Arc of Infinity Clip came up, I just went, oh really? That's what we're choosing? And in that discussion I was having with Todd earlier, thinking, oh you know, why have they chosen 2 bits from the 5 doctors? And it's like, well, at the time, one of the big 5 doctors, big claims to fame was they had all the original film. And of course, you know, if you've got the original film, it's easier to drop new elements into it. But even then... And they can rescan at high res. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like even then, um, and something that's totally blinking you'll miss it is before the 2nd doctor runs past her in, I think it's Florida. I think it's stock footage of Florida, you get a figure in a green coat running past her and it's McGann. And it's like 3 frames of McGann. Again, in the original script, she's meant to be on these windswept cliffs and she looks over at another cliff and there is a green coated figure writhing in pain in the distance and starting to glow. Oh, okay. Yeah. I think it's a matter of Stephen Moffatt has this great ambition and then the visual effects of the department, like, we've given you flying bikes. We've given you like this giant puppet in a forest a couple of weeks ago. We still, look, we still got to do Diana Riggs makeup. Can we just can we just save some money, please? We don't see Paul, do we? We just see his card. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We see 3 frames of his coat. Anyway, we go back to the leaf. That's the pre-credit sequence, so it's sort of, we think it's all about the impossible girl. I mentioned to you earlier, Nathan, that I wanted this to be called, the Impossible Girl, but it does start off being about the Impossible Girl, but it takes a, you know, a right hand turn and ends up somewhere different. I guess this is being told in chronological order because her existence inside the doctor's timeline turns out to have pre happened as a result of things that happen in this episode. And so we start with that. And we've got the, I don't know where I am thing from Bells of St. John, which tips us off that the great intelligence is going to be involved. And I guess we must have known that given that he does turn up in that episode. Yeah. Yeah. Well, even even that, the flashback to the leaf and her falling through the vortex and what have you, in Moffatt's original script she's in a cottage by the sea. There's a photo of the Maitlands. There's a photo of the doctor, but she's looking out of the windows and seeing all the previous doctors and she then gets the last line into the credits of whatever Madame Vastra tells you, do not go to Transalore. Q credits. Right. And, um, there's no documented reason why Moffatt moved away from that, but perhaps he kind of went, we're already getting a bit weird and he wanted to save it for the Zygon inversion. Yeah. Yeah. Trends are law. It's a great space name, isn't it? I think it's a properly good space name, like Andrazani or Galafre. It's a really skilful space name. It has a Z in it, but it sounds like a word. It does sound like a word. And one of the things that I really, really like about trendzolore is that it sort of mythicizes the doctor's death. Like, we know the doctor is going to die because everyone dies and he says that himself. And of course, because he's a time traveller. If we learn nothing else from Revelation of the Daleks, We know that the doctor has to be buried somewhere. And so Trezilore is like an ending. You know, the doctor's story now starts at Gallifrey and ends at Trezalore. And I think that's great. And it's a really moffety thing to take something that we sort of know or that we kind of must know about. But to make it explicit to make it happen. And so I think trends of law is a good name and I do think that setting this at trends of law is a great idea. There's also just, for me anyway, there is a symmetry because trendzolore and galafray. the same stresses on the same syllables and they're both kind of silly space names, but also they roll off the tongue. Yeah. You know, it's not... Ranscorav cola. I was trying to reach for something... See, I can't even inform those sounds. Yes, it's not something you have to force you out to do strange things. Because I was like, Zita Minor. like, no, that's actually quite a good space now. into minor is quite a good space name. Yeah. But no, yeah, yeah, it's no Ren Score, of course. Even at the time, I'm like, does this place have a relation to Gallifrey? And I believe there was a consideration to make, oh, wait Trezalore is Galafrey, a revelation later when Matt Smith was possibly doing another season, but they dropped that. You know, so his defensive trends law would take on a whole new meaning when he discovered actually it's, I did rescue Gallivre but no one on Gallivre remembers and they think it's called trends law. Is Transalore Retcon in time of the doctor? Does it end up not happening? I'd say so because he doesn't die. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that I think that Trendzilord doesn't end up happening. And it is that thing because like I have been very critical of giving the doctor backstory. And in fact, I listened to our timeless children, Jody into Tara episode yesterday, and I said that I was very angry at the introduction of new backstory for the doctor in the War Games episode 10. And I said that I thought it ruined the mystery of the character and really threatened the integrity of the program. Now, here we do have that backstory, but the backstory is kind of loose and inserting Clara into it doesn't really change anything very much. And I do like that scene where Clara's there saying, no, you know go and take the other TARDIS. It's going to be much better. I think that's adorable. Yes. And the fact that we see that scene happen and we don't know what it means when she says you're going to make a terrible mistake and then we see it happen again later. You're taking the wrong TARDIS, not that you're leaving at all. Like, that's a scene that we knew always happened, was the doctor stealing the TARDIS. And so starting the episode with that, I think, is pretty damn great. But I don't think it spoils anything. And I think, like I was on a podcast reasonably recently called Pull to Open, and they have a standard thing that they do every episode, which is where is Clara in this episode? Like, where's Wally? Well, we were going to do that with who is chameleon in this episode rapidly lost. Who is Chameleon? So that, like, that is a fun thing. But it doesn't sort of spoil anything, I think. It just, you know, it's in this episode. You aren't watching Doctor Who thinking, I wonder where Clara is really, which is the point of the joke, I think. Yes. There was a plan. Yeah. There was a plan when, and I'm jumping. jumping to the end here but there was a plan when Clara was describing what she had seen she said, I saw Amy Pond in the Pandoraca, and we were going to cut to Amy Pond in the Pandoraca, and her falling out, and Clara was going to be standing in the background, and she was going to see, I saw you killed at Lake Salencio, and we were going to see a clip of that because in both those instances, there's a crew member in the background. Really? And in Stephen Moffat script, it's like, can we make it look like Clara by cutting to a close-up? And I wonder if someone just said, Stephen. Just let it go, darling. Because, look, I've just mentioned those things and seen 3 very surprised pair of eyes from professional Doctor Who podcasters. We haven't noticed, even in 10 years, we haven't noticed. Let's go back to the beginning. The whole setup with this, with the whole conference call. Yeah. It just sort of just happens, you know? I mean, yes, we have the Whispermen thing, but the fact that Jenny forgets to lock the front door. They haven't they haven't necessarily haven't seen the Whispermen or anything like that. Like, that's a normal Doctor Who thing where there's some sort of threat and we need to, you know, we're in dire straits, lock the doors, let's get the conference call going. Instead, we're just doing it, and they're just suddenly then around. Yeah. It's a very Moffat thing is the phone call. And you might remember that there are episodes of press gang, which depend on phone calls as an idea or answer machine messages or all sorts of things. It's something that Moffatt is obsessed with. And so to have this thing where we're absorbed in this scene. We're kind of forgetting the setup that they're all unconscious in sort of different rooms in different time periods. And then suddenly the world that we've forgotten is happening outside, sort of intrudes on the phone call and has, you know, like has an effect on the phone call. And I think that is terrifically good. I love the scene with Strax where he goes to Glasgow on the weekends and just sort of beats the crap out of people. And I'm glad that Moffatt made that joke rather than anyone else. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a bit like RTD was allowed to make jokes about Cardiff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even that conference call scene with the outside world influencing the conference call was going to be set up in a joke. Halfway through one of his lines, Strax was going to suddenly clutch his head and shout, thank you, Archie, that will do. So like Archie is still beating him with his face in the real world. I just love the best line is, you know, not the one with the enormous head. The way he says the word hair. You know, he doesn't even really know what it is. Oh, I thought you said it's enormous head. I know, but later on when he's corrected and told that it's her hair. He just says the word hair. And I mean, my favourite part of that whole scene is I just didn't realise you were a woman and the look on Ripper's face is just, I don't have a body. I will find a body. will kill you. Yes, delightfully hurt expression as well, slightly hurt. And so this is the end, isn't it? This is chronologically the last time that we see river, and she will be back, obviously, for the Christmas special in, what, 2 years time or something. But that set before she goes to the library, isn't it? the, you know, the night before she goes off to the library. So this is after he's uploaded her at the end of silence in the library. So this is, and this is a farewell to her as a character, I think. And because she's so closely associated with Matt Smith's doctor you know, Tennant gets one story with Capoldi gets one story with her. I think we needed this. This is his last regular episode. and so we need the chance to say goodbye to river I think. Yeah, and it's also nice that we do get a little bit of her after she's been uploaded to the internet so that we know that she's doing okay and she's still having a wonderful time and getting into mischief and so on rather than just walking off to that big house in the country, whatever it was. looking after those horrible children. Yes. As opposed to Clara. Yeah, never mind. Yeah, and that kiss, the kiss between Matt and River is a proper kiss. It's the only problem. I think so. Remember we get the last kiss in the day of the moon where Matt drops her off home and she kisses him and he's surprised because that's never happened before and she's aware that that's their last kiss, but they get to have a proper proper kiss. And I also like the fact that, um, that Moffatt doesn't care about what her status is. Like, she's just an actor in the room with Matt. It doesn't matter if she's an uploaded cyber ghost or who cares? They have to kiss because it's good buy. Yeah, we have to kind of do that properly. And I thought that was really, really nice. There was no kind of Matt spitting or looking surprised or anything like that. I think he initiates it, doesn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really good. It's properly good, I think. And including last night when I rewatched this. I just sob my heart out when he says it would hurt. Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, we, with Matt's talk to, we're always like, oh you know, he doesn't understand human emotion, and it's just in that moment, it's like, oh, no, no, he totally gets it. Yeah. Um, and even at the beginning of the episode when he's explaining to Clara what trends the law is. And, you know, he's been, he's been his usual self since the beginning with the blind man's buff and doesn't it? Yeah, the little dalek. And there's like the 2nd Trezilora is mentioned. He is suddenly a 1000 years old and crushed on the sofa. So affected at that moment, isn't he? It's really moving. Seeing him cry like that is amazing, I think. And just Clara's reaction to it, but just seeing him cry properly without sort of grandstanding or anything like that. It's not a big, you know, tenant chewing the scenery kind of, you know, I'm too young to go or whatever. Yes. It's it's great. It's really sort of underplayed, but it's properly affecting just seeing the doctor like that. And something I've noticed rewatching the season this time is by the time we get to this point, the doctor trusts Clara, and, you know, it was kind of everything was going fine until Hyde, and then you've got Journey to the centre of the Tartars, where he rounds on her, like, who are you? What are you? But by this point, like every time she asks him a question. He answers her, like, what's trendzilor? Who's river song, et cetera. He like, he definitely trusts her. And then she follows him to the TARDIS and he tells her more. And when he says to her, is there any point telling you not to come? In Moffatt's original script, she looks to the TARDIS doors, they slam and she turns around and says all girls together. And it's like now the TARDIS trusts her as well. And I'm kind of sad we got rid of that because we never really resolve the Tartars not liking her. this season. That's true Yeah, it's it's funny because this story basically has no new supporting characters. Like you've got Andrew and Fabian in, sorry, I should say Andro Archaeoptrics and Fabian Drabatralunda in the TARDIS repair yard. You've got Clarence. Clarence. And um, Archie and the little boy who's not Thomas Thomas hadn't been cast yet, unfortunately. Um, I think I said way back with the Big Bang that Moffatt does introspective character finales, and this is probably the 2nd most introspective. I don't think you can get much more introspective than heaven sent. Yeah, this is this is incredibly introspective because it's about the character of the doctor. And I think I didn't like that at the time, but I like it a bit more now. I mean, it is vamping, isn't it? He's got all of his semi-regulars together. There's no new people and we're just doing things with them that they would ordinarily do. And the sets are what, the house where we've seen Clara before all season, Madame Vastra's house, and then just these various dark spaces that are created in the studio that are kind of hard to imagine, these just strange spaces. So, trends of law, you know, near the doctor's tomb, inside the doctor's timeline for the final scene. And so there's something sombre about it that fits the idea that this is an episode about the doctor kind of encountering his death as a kind of fact that happens. Something else that I find foreboding, even though it's very subtle, is, I mean, it's one thing to say that, you know, the TARDIS doesn't want to go to Translore. It can't go to trends law. You know, it's not allowed to, isn't it? Cross his time stream and have the, you know, the console blowing up and all the rest of it. And, you know, they end up in all but around the planet, and then he literally turns off the gravity so that they can fall down to the planet. And it's just that lovely moment where he exits and he puts his hand up to the cracked glass pane. And the way he says, oops, in this very, I've really done a bad thing and I'm really going further. That actually says a whole lot more than than all the other kind of carrying on. I think. It's just really subtle and I really like it. And the giant TARDIS has that same window cracked. Yeah, so when we see the doctor's tomb. And again, that's such a genius idea, an absolute Moffat genius idea that when a TARDIS is dying, all of the bigger on the insideness leaks out into the real world. And it's so logical. so clever. It's so clever. And it also has a sort of a logic to it. And there's no technobabble there. It's just it's just elegantly simple. And none of us ever thought of it. No, exactly right. It's an absolute classic Moffat thing. And it creates this sort of really weird visual where you've got a massive TARDIS where it's massive in 2 dimensions, but not in the 3rd dimension. It sort of seems to be thinner. Like, it's, it's weird and foreboding and absolutely what you want the doctors tombed to look like, I think. It's really, really good. It's a, slightly better, I think, probably than the previous attempt at the doctor's, the doctor's grave. Less poly starring. revelation. Yeah, where all that polystyrene falls on Colin. I mean, it's a great shot. I think it's a good story as well. But that, yeah, it's doing it's doing kind of melancholy in 2 different ways. You've got the darkness of trends of law, but then you've got the quiet snowscape of whatever that planet's called. Necros. Necros. There we go, of course. should know that. Why have I forgotten that? We could have done with Mr. Copper in a wig. Yeah, yeah. No, that would have just added something to it. I really like how Transalores realised, too, that there's no attempt to be realistic about it, and there's a scene, I think quite early on, where the 2 of them are walking, and it's clearly just back projection, isn't it? They're just walking in front of a screen that's showing the clouds and sky in the background and just how sombre and bleak and kind of miserable everything is. And you get this massive universe spanning cataclysm where the doctors are raised and everyone that he saved is now no longer saved and all of the stars are going out. And uh, you know, it's the sort of cataclysm the show has done before. But it kind of works that that is only experienced by this small group of people who are standing around on trends or outside the doctor's tomb. I like it. You know what disappointed me? A couple of things. One, we don't hear the doctor's name because River whispers it and we don't hear it. We get told that, oh, yes, the doctors told me all about you by Clara, like, you know, like, so he's just mentioned River offscreen, which is one of those tropes that I can't stand, but I'm sure he's having a go at all of us who are like that. No, I'm just being silly, Simon. And what was the other thing? Oh, yes, the grades. you know, we get rivers grape. Well, where's dodoes and Catarinas and mattress, you know? That's how all of the ones that are, you know? But I love all the river stuff, all the intercutting with river with Clara talking, but the doctor's dialogue at the same time and the lead up to the tomb in that is all just so delicious. And that's why the revelations that he was able to see her all along. is so great that they're having this conversation behind his back about him. She's prompting Clara and all of that sort of thing, but it just turns out the doctor just knew all of that and wasn't letting on. Doesn't he stop her from slapping him too? Yes. Yeah, that's when she realises he can hear her. He can hear her. Yes. It was a great moment because, you know, she slapped him before, so you know.. I also love that Vastra Jenny and Strax get a lot to do that's based on their individual characters. They're not just there to be people to share the dialogue around. You know what I mean? Like Jenny is the cautious sceptic, even before they go into all this. Vastra is brash and brave and Strax gets to say things like when he's getting his heart squeezed through his chest. I think I've got him on the runzer. So great. He's really like, why did you give in? Yeah, he's really terrific. And then the fantastic camera work when Jenny disappears, like she's behind Vestra and the camera is just moving very gently to focus on Vestra. And it's literally a 2 seconds after Jenny is obscured that Vast returns around. And so there is some kind of special effects work going on there. I don't think it's just Catherine Stewart walking out of shot. But if it's Catherine's, you're walking out of shot behind like a digital mat, you know. It's still so well done. And Niamh McIntosh in that scene when Jenny disappears and she has to kill Strax is just astonishing. Yeah, so she is very, very good in this, in this episode. I'm not a huge fan of those three, but I actually think this is possibly when they're at their best. I'm surprised just watching how important they are to the sort of end of Matt Smith. era. And I do like them. I think that Dan Starkey is hilarious and just all of those silly lines about, you know, pools of acid and various types of grenades and stuff and not being able to tell the sex of anything, like all of that, that's just kind of sitcom shtick. But Moffatt is very good at that sort of thing. And I think it absolutely has a place in Doctor Who. And one thing that I can praise Chris Chibnell for is that I didn't think that the Santarans were a going concern after Strax had made them so ridiculous. And he managed to bring them back in a good way and keep them funny without minimising their threat in any way. phrases you rarely hear. I've always liked the 3 of them. And I think it's a shame that they just have one more episode after this. Like I would have liked a couple more because I really do think they work well with the doctor regardless of who it is. Yeah, I think they're kind of like unit, aren't they, in robot, you know, like we just get them back once more so that we're all okay about the new doctor. And so that Clara has someone to talk to about the new doctor. I always thought it was a shame when the doctor regenerated and like no one kind of witnessed it, like peed into Colin. Like no one's really there to kind of know anything about that apart from Perry because there's no larger context that the show has at the time. Whereas, you know, when Eggleston regenerates into tenant, it affects a range of people and we get to see a number of people who knew that doctor reacting to it. and I think that, you know, that's clearly what's happening when we get perjury for the 1st time when we get Tom Baker for the 1st time. You know, it's it's more fun, I think, to have that regeneration happened with more witnesses. And so I think they're perfect for that. And look, they're clearly part of his toy box, you know, they're his go to things. I've got an important episode. The doctor needs to have friends. Who are they going to be? What do you think of the role of the great intelligence in all of this? And it's arc in this season? It suddenly is very quite powerful, isn't it? Like it's gotten more powerful or am I just off on a tangent? I don't know. I think there seem to be an attempt to make the web, the web of fear is the internet, the worldwide web, and you have the great intelligence living in there, and he's seen on computer screens and stuff like that, and all of that seems to make good sense. Um, Elle Sandifer has a hilarious crack about how Richard E. Grant is absolutely phoning it in and that that's what the character needs, like a, uh, a, you know, like a good, well-known top tier actor completely phoning it in to play the great intelligence works really well. And so he does that underbite thing, you know, the way that he sort of holds his mouth and stuff like that. I think he's really good. But it turns out he's not really that important, is he? And he's just there. He's very 2nd tier in so far as it's just like, yeah, no, I'm sick of being foiled by the doctor. I'm just gonna sort of kill myself now and take the doctor with me. And that's thwarted in like all of, you know, 2 minutes anyway. But, you know, but is he from like the future or is, like, because like, is he with Bastra and Jenny and Strax in their conference call or is it just the Whispermen? He only turns up later, doesn't he? Yeah, he turns up on Transalore and I guess this is where he dies. And so it means that Pat Troughton has now thwarted him twice and then he obviously gets Miss Kislett or whatever and does something in the 21st century as well. I mean, he is just that snow, isn't he? Isn't he just the psychic snow? interacting with Dr. Simeon and creating a weird version of Dr Simeon? Well, effectively, it's Dr. Simeon's childhood angst creating the great intelligent that sort of feeds on it. I mean, who knows? Maybe, you know, the great intelligence dropping into the doctor's timeline is why the abominable snowman and the web of fear happen at all. you know, rather than, it's like that, that's, that's that's. Yeah, rather than the other way around. Although he does give the great intelligence the idea of attacking the underground, I think, inadvertently by giving him that lunchbox in the snowman, which has the map of the underground on it. I really like it because again, the great intelligence has no backstory in the classic era, and Moffatt gives it a backstory that is every bit as weird and mysterious as no backstory at all. Yes. Like, he's not, uh, you know, he's not a disembodied alien from the planet Zolve or anything. Yes, exactly. It's, yeah. I think it's handled. Well, I really like the way it's done. I don't think it detracts from the original by explaining too much. It just, you know, provides a nice little origin story. And as I sort of said, you could kind of argue that the great intelligence creates itself by dropping into the doctor's timeline and whether it's when it's chasing Clara or when Clara's chasing you know, it does go back to Victoria, London. It does go back to the 1960s whenever it is. So it kind of, it never did actually get created. It's just constantly going round and round, if you know what I mean. In time. Yeah, well, something this story establishes is time travel is possible in dreams. Yeah. And if you only have intelligence. If you are only mental energy, then time travel, I think, is possible for you as well. So, as you say, Simon, the great intelligence probably has no beginning and no ending. It simply is. Something watching this time, I kind of, I kind of went, you know when he rips his face off and disappears and another whisper man steps up, I kind of went, well, what's that then? But at the same time, it's like, well, in the 2 Trouton stories he's basically making golems. Yeah. You know, so the whisper men are just, they're just golem. just 18 inhabit any one of them because he's intelligence. Yeah exactly. As for Richard E. Grant phoning it in. I've heard that accusation with Scream at the Shalka as well. But I think it's actually just Richard E. Grant's acting style in that facially. He doesn't tend to do much. It's all in the voice and the intensity. Yeah. And it's like, even if you look at something, I think the 1st thing I ever saw in was a drama called Jack and Sarah, where he was a recently bereaved single father. And even there, and you know, that was a very emotional film. Facially, it's all under control except for the eyes and the voice. Maybe you're right. And I, that's how I see this performance. You know, when he's saying things like, you know, the doctor will have many names, the storm, the valiard, again, dear listener. No, I agree with you, Brendan, that was a great moment. Yeah. And but it's just like the intense, the intensity in his voice is kind of, I'm doing the universe a favour. Look at all these grades. And a villain is always more interesting when it's not just, ha ha ha, you defeated me, so I'm going to jump into your timeline and kill you. He's actually like no, I've got a point here. Um, but I'm glad that the plot doesn't labour that. Yeah, because you've got him saying he killed all these people and you've got all the doctor's friends saying, well, actually, mate he's done all this good, and I'm saying that, and I'm dead, says River. I mean, yeah, I don't buy the Richard E. Grant phoning it in thing. I think that his acting style and a lot of stuff is he throws lines away. The performance is always very, very small and subtle and and realistic's not quite the right word, but it's just the lines are said as if he's just thought of them rather than them being performed. Yeah, I think it works really well for the great intelligence because the great intelligence is a bit nothing, really. I mean, it hasn't had lots of dialogue or anything before in the 60s, does it? Am I misremembering? No, it's just Web of Fear 6, really. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and Samovar, yes. Samovar. You know, why does he go after an old friend of the doctors? Ah, abominable snowmen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it all works. They'll be able to something there, somewhere? Yeah, see? Yeah. And of course, you know, it's obviously, is this the point at which they know that they have web of fear back, but haven't announced it yet? Well, that's what we discussed during the snowman. And we kind of thought that, yes. They know, I mean, they all know. I mean, Moffatt knows. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so you just bring the great intelligence back so that this is an old adventure with the great intelligence in it, which is sort of being released for the 1st time in forever. I will say that the usage of the great intelligence in this season brings to light a really weird thing. A friend of the podcast, Andy Frankham, who is the head of the Lethbridge Stewart novels, is partially responsible for managing the characters and creations of the Hazman and Lincoln. Right. And whenever the BBC used the Great Intelligence and the Brigadier 70% of the time, 90% of the time, they don't credit Hazman Lincoln until Andy or I think it's um Hannah Hazman is the co-manager until they contact the BBC and say, guys, I don't know if they get paid or get paid very much, the estate. But it's just like, the end of this episode has Santarans created by Robert Holmes. Silurian's created by Malcolm Hulk. And it's like, but you've got the great intelligence there, which is not a BBC creation. It's, it's just, it's very strange that the creations of these 2 writers, which, you know, people who look back at the Trout Nearer you know, when there were kids watching it, it was going out and they're like, oh my god, you know, the yeti stories, that's where it was at. and that's where the brigadier came from. So it's like there's 2 iconic parts of Doctor Who's history and the BBC's just like, oh, you know, we'll credit Terry Nation and we'll credit Kit Pedler and Jerry Davis said, we'll credit Brian Hales when the ice Warriors turn up, but they just forget that Hazman and Lincoln exists. And it's kind of like the whole feud with the dominators was ages ago. And almost everyone involved is dead, you know, get over it. It's just an odd thing. Yeah. We resolve the Great Intelligent Arc, and then Clara's just an ordinary girl. She said so all along, and she, of course, puts herself into the doctor's timeline to save him, and then we go in a different direction, you know, like her story is done. The intelligence story is done, but the doctor story is far from done. Yeah, and I think, you know, I think that that's a pretty good resolution of the mystery and I think it's the right time to do that and clear the decks for her to just be the doctor's companion because she plays an absolutely crucial role in Day of the Doctor. She's terribly important. And just seeing them get back together at the beginning of day of the doctor is wonderful. Like, it's so great. And she has, I think, this season, and we've said this before suffered enormously from the arc and from recording episodes out of order. There's no real consistency to the way the character is written. It's all kind of tied together because you've got Jenna's performance, but the character isn't really working at this point. And so retooling the character, giving her some backstory, all of that sort of thing that's going to happen over the next few episodes. I think ends up working really quite well. I think you're really right. The Cold War and the High, the characters are nothingness. And then last week's Nightmare in Silver. It's like she's next year's character. She's a completely different character virtually, I think, every other episode she's in this year. I think she's good in Crimson Horror. I think which is filmed quite late. Yeah, yeah, it's filmed after this. Terrible hair. Terrible. I'm sorry. Just one thing of that story that really gets to me is the bun on top of her head. just hate it. Oh, I tell you what, I was so relieved when she came back into the present day at the end of that episode and she had her own hair back, but I've only just realised why I felt like that. I have to say, I didn't know that, you know, I've never read up much about the production of the new era, and so I didn't know that this particular block was filmed so totally out of sequence. And I wasn't spotsing it particularly, maybe because I just forgive not very much companion characterisation as, well, that's Doctor Who. that's, you know, that's, that's just what we get sometimes, but I, I, I wonder how much you're kind of seeing it because, you know, how, how out of order it's recorded. Like the way, you know, I can see how in Fort Doomsday, doctor has no character at all because I know that that was shot first. you know what I mean? Yeah. No, I agree with you, Simon. I certainly went into this back home of the season knowing when things were shot and it kind of went, oh, great character, great character. Oh nothingness, nothingness. So I was sort of looking out for it, you know, in various episodes to see to what extent in my mind at least, you know, where that character was at. Yeah. But I mean, Simon's right in the sense that in the classic era sometimes you would have a like one paragraph description of who the character is or whatever. She's a computer programmer from Peace Potty. Yes, she knew. But basically it's just the actor's performance that ties it all together and everyone's just written as a companion. And I think that the new series improves upon that by having actual characters in the Tartars who have their own personalities and things like that. But this does seem like a kind of throwback, in a way. Totally. And I guess the one thing that at the time disappointed me was the fact that I actually wanted her to be something more than just, I'm just an ordinary girl. I actually thought it was building up to something big revelation. But that would have been just NAF, right? So coming back to it, I actually like it a lot more now and think yeah, you made the right decisions. That's why once again, dear list is, I'm not sure enough. Look, I'm 100% on the fact that it's the right decision that she is actually just an ordinary person, but what makes her extraordinary is that she makes the decision to go into the doctor's timeline to save him and therefore that creates all these paradoxes and her appearing all throughout his history. That's more interesting because it's a normal person who's done this. A regular person has made this leap and done this rather than she was some magical thing and she was actually a space alien that was you know, given to her father via leaf or whatever it was. you know what I mean? Like, it's much more interesting that she's much more relatable as a result. Exactly. And I think also because the character is written thinly, and I'm not saying that it's necessarily a bad thing. Because the character is written thinly, more people in the audience can imagine themselves as that character. So they can imagine that they're the normal person. And it's like, this is Doctor Who's 50th year and this story is asking the question, would you split yourself throughout the doctor's history to save the doctor as a fan, as a viewer. And I can imagine there are, there are a lot of children at home watching that and realising how much they empathise with Clara without even realising necessarily that that's the reason. Part of the reason I love Clara in this season, and Nathan alluded to it earlier, and I said it back on Bells of St. John. She's Mel. Because she is a fantastic actress who has gone on to great accolades like Bonnie Langford with hardly any character on paper and yet when she is on screen as the character. She is just magnetic and fun to watch and fun to be around. But if this had been her last story. It gets a far more satisfying and reasonable and understandable exit going out of the show. And part of Mel being so thinly written is that when Mel arrives on the scene, she already instinctively trusts the doctor and he instinctively trusts her, so we get all that out of the way and we have that right from the bells of St. John. Now, not necessarily from Clara, but, you know, the doctor sitting out on the driveway in front of the Tartars, and she's like, am I safe now? And he's like, yes, and you always will be. Are you just going to sit there and keep an eye on me. Yes, I am. It's just it's a really sweet. And the funny thing is, Matt then starts to distrust her while she is building her trust in him until they hit a crux point. And the last 3 episodes after journey to the centre of the TARDIS they are a total team with complete faith in one another. And that is exemplified in that last bit where he's saying, no don't go in there, don't go in there, and she's just asking more and more questions of, but if I do, this happens, and he's like yes, but don't. But if I do, this happens. Yes, but don't. And then Rivers telling her not to go in there and she's basically like, well, now I know it's a good idea. And I also think this year, this back and off of this season is when Matt's character is the most thinly written. And we talked about it with rings of Akatan, like, yeah, that's not a speech for the script. that speech for Matt Smith, because you know Matt Smith can deliver that speech. And I think just the chemistry of Matt and Jenna together gets us over the line of the thin character writing. Yeah. Yeah. It was a bit of a problem last week too, with the doctor and Mr Clever, where it was just like, let's give Matt a big thing to perform. And it doesn't work quite as well as the approach of just giving him normal things. Yeah, and I think also he was stuck in a bit of a Ken Dodd situation of going, they'll tell me. They'll tell me if it's too much. Yep. It never happened. So let's talk about the final scene then. So somehow she's still alive and the doctor finds her in this weird space, that's his timeline, and all I could think of was like the end of Rocky Horror, you know, where Brad and Janet are crawling around on their hands and knees in that sort of smoke, you know, the with the dry ice all over the floor. It's all that sort of thing. Where does she land? In the doctor's timeline. Yeah, I know, I know, like whatever. It's that bit in the invisible enemy when they're in the doctor's brain. I don't have to say, I'm going... But without the nucleus of the swamp. But it's in a place which is just full of the doctor, I guess. And so we get a way of introducing John Hurt's character. Lots of rushing coats past. Yeah, yeah. A particularly, particularly chunky William Hartnall. Yeah. Like if you freeze frame it. Which you obviously did. And, you know, when I say junkie, I kind of mean it as a compliment. Like he looks like a rugby player. Well, much like the original. I mean, if he brains you with a rock, you'll know about it. another FTE revelation. Me liking rugby players. Everyone does that. No, I thought Chunky William Hartnell. Sorry. I'm having too much title. I'm having too much medication. Sorry. And I guess this is another reinterpretation thing. So earlier on, it was like, the doctor has a secret. He will take to his grave. and it has been discovered and it refers to the grave, right? And here we've been sitting with the title, the name of the doctor and it becomes a plot point in so far as the doctor needs to say his name to open his tomb, so everyone can go in, and River has somehow found out the doctor's name. Although I don't think he really told her at the wedding. Well, when he said he told her. He was actually, look at my eye. Look, I've got a little me in there. But, you know, maybe he then said, oh, and by the way, I'm Greg. Gordon. Yeah. Um, so... But the name of the doctor, really kind of means the title of the doctor. The name of the doctor, the name that he's given himself, not his birth name or anything like that. But the name that he gave himself because of who he is. He's the doctor. He makes people better. And so this is, I guess, a way of introducing the idea of the war doctor because that's going to be what the day of the doctor is about. Yeah. And these scenes were filmed at the same time as Day of the Doctor. So the shooting script for the name of the doctor ended with goodbye, sweetie. Oh, okay. And that was the last bit, and they're like, we know we have to film this later because whoever we're getting at that time, they didn't know they were getting John Hurst, like whoever we're getting will be filmed with name of the doctor. And I think Stephen Moffat was still holding out hope for Chris or Paul. Right. Right. For Paul? Paul. Yeah, because when Chris said no, he did try to get Paul and the BBC kind of said, oh, no. Well, I thought that was the case. I thought it wasn't Paul's decisions. I thought they just went, no, the BBC said, right? Because there's 2 schools of thought, and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. Either. he wasn't the doctor for long enough in the public eye to be recognisable or unlike John Hurt. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. Or they viewed the TV movie as a failure and wouldn't link it to that. So Moffatt was just like, well, Chris won't do it. What if I get a big name actor who's never been the doctor before? And they're like, well, it depends how big the name is. They managed to get John Hurt and the BBC are like, okay. I mean, he played a CGI dragon in Merlin. He's not that big a cow. Exactly. I guess he's I mean, he's big, but not that big. Like, is it kind of big, you know? Yeah, but that's how we get a knight of the doctor. It was a consolation to Paul because Stephen had been talking to him and then had to come to him and say the BBC don't want you. Right. Which, you know, she's pretty a pretty horrible thing to have to say to an actor and, you know, kudos to Paul for them turning around and saying, yeah, fine, I'll come in and do a 7 minute thing on the website. Yeah, brilliant. So what was your feeling at the time? when he turns around and says introduced and it says introducing John Hurt as the doctor. I think it's magnificent. I think it's an absolutely incredible moment. And it is kind of funny because normally an introducing credit means it's their 1st go at anything, isn't it? Yes, this is their film debut. their TV debut, yeah. But, I mean, this is John Hurt's Doctor Who debut. I think it's an amazing moment and it is a moment where the credits kind of appear in the show where the show itself is kind of telling us what it's doing now with this actor. And if the show is telling us that that's really the doctor, then we kind of have to believe it. You know, the things that are said in the in the credits are real. It was so +and wonderful. Now, I have to say something, child, just before you just before you start talking to, I have to say, I have to fill it in for the listener that because I'm doing this remotely, I'm seeing my 3 co hosts on the sofa in a row. Nathan is leaning forward and as Nathan was saying that Todd was making so many faces and shaking his head. So I now want to hear what was going on in your brain, Todd. It was a beautiful visual. It was the most beautiful visual. I love it. Wow. And I still don't particularly like it. Who is John Hurt? That's what went in my head. Like, I heard the name, obviously, in the British public and other people. He is much bigger actor than what I had ever known. I had only ever known that he was in, what, Alien? Yeah. And that's, and I, and I, sue me. I've never seen that movie, right? And so it was just sort of like, and the whole idea, I mean, we'd heard rumours that, you know, Eccleston's not doing it coming up with this other incarnation, and I was just like, oh, yeah, right really. So it is a moment, which I do now enjoy, right? Because I think having obviously seen... Todd experience. He's actually really good, obviously. And I actually think... Well, I'll talk more of it at another time, but the getting around Eccleston is actually very clever. But I still go, oh, John Hurt? Who? I'm sorry, I just wanted... I mean, I mean, I'm not going to say, oh, give me Tom Cruise or something like that. Do you know what I mean? But I'm just saying... I mean, I don't think I don't think anyone could have probably impressed me, really. I mean, I don't know. I mean, who would you expect, you know, but just from saying, John Hurt? Is that John going, oh, what? I will say, Nathan, one day Aunt Malik is going to turn up and punch you in the face. But Nathan, I am really, really touched that you just find so much joy. in that like at the time and now and forever. Like your positivity is absolutely wonderful. And, you know, I'm not saying that I missed negative, but, you know, I do like it. I do like it. And it does throw a punch, but I mean, I was familiar with John Hurt from, you know, I Claudius and things like that, and I knew him as a great British character actor. When he turns around, it's like, well, A, finally, John Hurts in Doctor Who, which is great. He is I wasn't trying to diminish him by suggesting he wasn't that big before. What I meant was he's not exactly a Hollywood name. He's not a movie star. He's not Tom Cruise, as you just said, Todd. not someone mega big. But I was so delighted that it was someone who I saw as a quality actor. And given that he he is quite stagey in his performance. Like, you know, he's got the whole RSC thing going on in deliveries, which always, for me, suits the Doctor Who style. It's harking back to those, you know, BBC period dramas. But it was just that moment where it was like, yes, they've actually done this. They've actually thought, you know, because the program was off the air for that block of time, there was no completely clean thing between McGann and Eccleston, anything might have happened in that period, you know, numbering the doctors or something that we as fans do. I think it was an opportunity that there's a gap there that you could do something like this. And no, I thought it was a great way of having a kind of a one-off casting for the doctor to do that. And, you know, my jaw hit the hit the floor when he turned around was great. He's not credited as the war doctor in this, is he? No, in the time of the doctor, the little McGann thing. He's credited as the wool doctor. Oh, is that where that comes from? Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, he is just the doctor in this. And it's kind of weird. Merchandise that appears around this time. I think his action figure credits him as the other doctor. So it looks like right up until November. There's decisions being made of what do we call him? I'm with you, Simon, in that. I was familiar with his work and it was kind of like he turns around and my jaw half dropped introducing John Hurt as the doctor that's when it dropped. that's what I mean. Yes, that's the full drop is as doctor. That's what I'm talking about. John Hurt is great. Yeah, but not, you know, 0 my God, John Hurt. Yeah, but is that blurring of the credits with the actual television show, which I think I have a problem with? That's the sort of thing I like where the show reminds you that it's a television show. And so those levels, kind of, interplay with one another. And I'm always kind of a big fan of that. And I'm not that invested in the show creating a coherent world. And I know for a fact that Stephen Moffatt isn't either. Otherwise he wouldn't have written all of those things. And look, if you want to create a coherent world, at some point that doctor, because we're in the doctor's brain, don't forget, at some point that doctor has visited London and someone said, you look like that bloke from Alien, John Hurst. So he's like, in the doctor's mind. He's like, I'm John Hurt as the doctor. Hi. He's diagetic. It's diagetic. Both Matt and Jenna conceive that writing next to his head when he turns around. So, you know, later on when Jenna's like, so who was that? She's asking, is he the doctor or is he John Hurt? Because I thought John Hurt was an actor and he got his stomach exploded and then he got his stomach exploded again in that Mel Brooks movie? And then he was Winston. Yeah, 1994. Yeah, in 1994. The concept of bringing in an extra doctor was described to me by someone who at the time before it happened, who this is this person must have been aware of what it was, but it was described to him as the most misbegotten idea in the history of Doctor Who. And that's an idea that I completely reject, I have to say. I reject it too. I just want to say that. I think it's actually a very clever idea. Yeah. And, you know, it's been done again and we will discuss that more in like 5 years time. In due course. But when it is done again, it is, again, one of the best ideas that era does. Yeah. You know. It's never a bad idea to do new things with the character so long as you're adding mystery and not taking it away. Yeah. And I think in both instances, now, now, and in the future with a timeless child. It does it in a way which doesn't require you to completely have to retcon the entire program. Given the fact that, you know, he says that, you know, this guy is not really the doctor because he doesn't, he's not, doesn't take on the name of the doctor because he doesn't deserve it because he did this terrible thing, right? So I don't, in my brain, I do not think of him as the doctor. And likewise, there's whatever happens, you know, Pre Hartnell is kind of like, well, that's sort of like almost like a different whole different cycle of life. So you can still have, you can still have the series up to this point without it being demolished by this new revelation. Well, then, listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back next week to wrap up the last two years in our Series 7 retrospective. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at Flightthrough Entirety on Facebook at FDE podcast on Twitter and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger Jody Interterterra, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. Until next time, remember that conference calls are only productive and enjoyable if you get someone to bludgeon you unconscious beforehand. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. See you soon. Bye bye. That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, Brandon Jones and Simon Moore. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lam. This episode, full of the doctor, was recorded on the 26th of June 2022 and released on the 23rd of October. Fans of this sort of thing will also enjoy maximum power, which returns this week with a very special episode, an interview with Doctor Who and Blake 7 director, Michael Lee Bryant. Check out maximumpowerpodcast.com for the details. I think... Yeah, I think that's it. Yeah, I think that's good. And you've done the outro already. And I've done the outro already. Are you good? Yes, I'm good. revelation of the... I think it's called Chunky William Hartnell. Yeah, yeah, I think it's absolutely called chunky William Hardle. The one thing that I'd observe on the chunky one type thing is, I mean, it doesn't, this doesn't have to go in or anything, is that I know, you know, you're never going to be able to get the body language right, but it's, it's, it's like it's worse than Terry Walsh, all these, you know, people strolling around as, as, as Colin everything. you know what I mean? It's so obviously not the same people. It's, it's, it's... It's when Patrick Trouton's running and he runs and then you cut to him running and it's a different running motion like it's much slower. Yeah, it's wrong. It just wrong. Like, you know, surely there are enough fans out there who can do accurate body impersonations. You just, you know, put a call out on Facebook and get them all in and to audition. I mean, what's it? Who is it? What's his face? John Colshaw. No. What's the other one? The pretty one. Oh, Jacob Dudman. The newer one, the newer one that's doing all the all the impersonations. Yeah, but that's vocal impersonations. We need, you know, the physical impersonation. Someone who could do the physical thing. Yeah, yeah. The only other thing I'd sort of add, just a sort of a funnier side, is you know, how you're saying that, you know, that you use they use 2 clips from the 5 doctors, one, but they both put we in trout and from the 5 doctors. It's like back in the old days, you know, in the 80s. That's all we knew. all. Well, no, but also it's the fact that, you know, internally, you know, the production office probably had to pay this stupid sum of money to the archive to extract a tape that they could then use. And so it was going to be cheaper if they just got the 5 doctors and they could grab everyone from there. It's like that's why you got the same blue pizza clips appearing again and again and again is because it's like, oh, let's just grab the, you know, the 1970s. You don't have to pay extra for someone to crawl through the tapes because we don't have anyone on staff who's sad enough to just automatically know when all these sequences happened. That doesn't count. Okay. I, no, I might. I have the dog scratching at the door. Yes. And so we might leave you to get on with. So I'm pressing stop. Yeah, if you can just send me...