A Peter Capaldi–Shaped Time Tunnel

Hello, De Lister, and welcome back to Flight for Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that could really go for a big bowl of pigs fry right now. I'm Nathan. I'm Todd. I'm Simon. I'm Peter. Well, it happens to all of us eventually. The handsome young doctor is suddenly old, grumpy, and Scottish with a predilection for brutal quips that probably still keeps Rebecca Front up at night. It's time to welcome Peter Capoldi to the stage as we discuss deep breaths. Where were we when we first saw this? Were we at an event? State Theatre? We were at the State Theatre, which has hosted many important life events. So this is the 2nd most important event held there. Is that correct? Oh, we saw Julie Andrews there. And Curry Fisher. and David Attenborough and Carrie Fisher. Yes. Okay, so it's now going down the list. Are you talking about Simon's wedding or deep breath? So we were all there. And I think there were people there that we knew but didn't know were going there. Well, of course, because it was a big event. And was it both Capaldi and Jenner, were they both there? Yes. Yeah. Okay. They're both there. And how did you feel afterwards? What was your feeling at the end of this episode? It was, are they really going for that music over the title? Yes, was that really the opening credits? I seem to recall, we, Todd, you and I came out. When was Brian and I came out and said we really liked it? And a couple of people said they didn't. I think James sort of was a bit nonplused. wasn't I uneasy? Don't I ever... New Doctor Who. You and I, I was uneasy about the fact that they made him unlikeable, that he's old and would people accept that? And I remember sitting in the audience watching it going, oh they're going for that. Oh, in the moments where he's not likeable and like, am I a good man or I don't even know if that's mentioned. I know it is. But I just, I was concerned. Yes, well, you and I looked at each other. Are they doing Colin Baker again? But trying to do it properly. I am vastly amused by the fact that he looked at him and said they've made him old considering that we are all roughly his age now. No, he's older than us. He's 55. I mean, you know, we're early 50s. Yeah, yeah. Well, very early 15. Some of us are earlier than others. You can talk something. I wasn't able to share that experience because I was living in London at the time and I saw it in a cinema in Clapham with Poor Masters and Matt Jones. Oh, wow, okay. And yeah, I had a pretty good response to it. I actually think I fell asleep for 5 minutes, not through any fault of the episode because it was quite late. I think we were seeing it at night. But I came away thinking, yeah, okay, this is not the Matt Smith era, but it might be something new and different. It's interesting, isn't it? Because he does obviously 2 episodes introducing a new doctor. And because the 11th hour is so spectacularly polished and, you know, kind of what he's been planning since he was 12 to do when he introduces his 1st new doctor. So this, the fact that this is more of a normal episode in a way is a slight disappointment. It's not the clever kind of puzzle box that... Yeah, it doesn't have that spectaculenness of the 11th hour. For me, it reminded me actually of the Christmas invasion when I was watching it last night, very, very similar, very similar start the way he arrives and comes out of the Tartars and says something strange to these people who already know him, and one of whom claims not to know who the hell this person is, which means she's a bit of an idiot, frankly, because she's part of that gang. But what struck me last night. The main thing that struck me last night when I was watching it was the fact that it's almost like all the way through the episode they're panicking about the fact that they've cast someone who's suddenly quite a bit older than the other doctors we've had. And they're almost overcompensating for that, especially with a phone call at the end. That's a good point. I never really thought about that. I just thought it sat uncomfortably with me. That phone call at the end, I think, I think is a mistake if you want to actually get people to accept an older doctor. I adore it. Like I do actually, I'm very moved by it and it's never been done before, but I guess I really wanted more of an episode where there's a point where the companion suddenly says, right, I'm with you, right? And there's no going back. You know, when he grabs her hand later in the episode. Suddenly that's the turning and they're going to be together. Not questioning. And I think, well, looking back on the series, you know, with Colin Baker, there was a mistake there that it was like, you know we're questioning, she couldn't accept him. If you look at something like robot, you know, Sarah accepts the doctor straight away, not saying that necessarily needed to happen but yes, we're panicking that we've cast an order doctor, we're highlighting that fact, you know, this episode got 9.170000 viewers, it's his highest rated episode, number 2 of the week, the only new series doctor not to get over 10000000 or hit number one in their run, okay, for the week. And, you know, we've had a lot of good will. You know, people have kept with the series up to the 50th. There's been that buildup. You know, shows last for 7 or 8 years generally, here's a point where we don't have to, the general public don't have to stay with the show, right? And they will stay with the show this year. The ratings will be very similar, but at the end of this year there's suddenly a drop off. I think tackling the fact that the doctor's been cast older by making Clara weird about it is a wrong headed approach. I think she should have felt protective and worried about him in the same way that, as you mentioned, Todd. Sarah Jane did in Robot, but she accepted the doctor completely. I think, um, she's kind of a bitch about it actually. And it doesn't really work for Clara's character. It gets you offside with the audience. I think, though, that the reason for that phone call can't just have been because we needed to convince an audience that was used to pretty young men like Tennant and Smith. I don't think that's the primary reason, but I... the way it's done, though. Well, not the phone call itself, but what they say in the phone. It's an acknowledgement of that kind of fandom that really only came aboard because David Tennant and Matt Smith were young and hot. I think, though, what we have now is a doctor who won't express his feelings, who isn't as open as Matt Smith, who himself was not that open as the doctor, he was constantly keeping secrets and things, but I don't think you could have had Capaldi deliver those lines, and you had to give them to someone else to deliver. So we needed to hear that the doctor was scared, but we couldn't possibly have heard Capoldi say that. Yeah, no, I think it was a great idea. I love the phone call. I think, you know, this is the 1st time we've ever had that sort of, you know, reaching back. And it's such a great idea. And for that, I applaud it. I suppose I'm just talking about the, it's just another little tiny thing that there just seems to be this overall slight panic. It's not the phone call itself that does that. It's that and other things as well. I just remember in the audience, all the fangirls sighing and sort of sobbing because it was Matt Smith. I remember that moment and I just thought this is not good. Yeah, picking up on what you said, Peter. It's like he's resentful. Yeah, and that line, please tell me I didn't get old, anything but old. I mean, I'm not sure what we were meant to take away from that. It just feels slightly insulting to Peter Capaldi really. And he seems emasculated by it as well. Like, that's the moment that he's on the back foot. And in a way, he's got to be on the back foot because he's hoping that Clara will stay with him. But it does make him seem like a bit of a sad old man. Whereas before then, like, we talk about Matt Smith's physical energy in his physicality and Capaldi's physicality is quite different, but he also is someone who uses weird hand gestures to emphasise the way he speaks, who runs like an idiot, you know, like like he's got a real physical energy and we've seen him jumping off roofs and through trees and off bridges and stuff. You know, he's been doing the thing. I don't know. I think maybe, yeah, there... He's not behaving like an old man. No, that's right. until the very end. Of course, Saul Moffat working through his own issues of being old and creaky and Scottish. The projection. His hair is appalling. I really hate this short hair. It doesn't work on Peter Capaldi. I think he's just come off doing the Musketeers show where he's played a villain for the last year and I think the hair was longer. I may be wrong with that. No, but it's like it's been chopped to make a difference between that and this. Obviously, I adore the fact that over time it grows, and the character grows, and the warmth comes in, and you get the humour and all that. I see a very similar journey to the Pertwee doctor who has really short hair. I see all those... As a same hair. As a buffon. And as a fan, I just love the journey that this doctor goes on, but it just at this point worries me so much that he's an old man in those aspects and not as likeable, you know? But having said that, I think there's a lot of humour in this. And I think that my general impression at the time was that he's really not likeable, but he actually actually is quite likeable in a lot of this. There's scenes that sort of are different. Like somewhere he's quite, I'm not going to say nasty, but, you know, nastier, not as warm. Isn't more of an edge? Yeah. Next week, I think they get it completely wrong and he's just, they just make him too horrible, right? And I don't think it's for the 3rd episode where they actually get a balance of it really right. I think it would have been better had there been a Peter Capaldi shaped time tunnel. That would have made everything better. Well, let's talk about that. The title sequence. I actually think the 1st moments of the title sequence are wonderful until it gets to the halfway point, and then I think it all falls apart. I think the whole title sequence is a monstrous debacle, and I was bitterly disappointed at the time that they hadn't done a newer version of the series 7B. For a moment in time, we had an actually good title sequence in the program, and then they threw it all away. Oh, I said on our last retrospective that unfortunately every time they revamp the titles and the theme music, they each get a little bit worse. It's the same with the titles here, but the theme music is horrible. It sounds like one of those awful variations on a themes. Yes. That's what it reminded me of. It reminded me of like Dominic Glynn's variation. That was probably the good one. It was the good one. It was the last Marquez one. Like, I totally agree with you. I think the theme music is just the worst. It's only good when he does the guitar riffs in, is it listen, that they have the guitars. Yeah, maybe. And it's sort of like, why couldn't you have just kept that heavy guitar stuff and just jettison this horrible pingy... I don't know why showrunners in Doctor Who feel like they constantly have to change the opening titles and the theme music. That was not a feature of the original program. It changed. No, it changed very infrequently. It only feels like it was frequent because. It fell further apart because we were 12. Maybe. Well, not really. There are a lot more episodes as well. And so that time tunnel sequence lasted 6 whole seasons, whereas now every time, yeah, every time there's a new doctor or which is fairly frequently or just to change like the 50th anniversary, they change the theme, they change the titles and it's unsettling. They could have kept a variation of the Matt Smith, 7B titles. That's what they should have done. Yeah, which I really hate. Which I don't like either, no, in hindsight. No, no, the only decent... So I remember being shocked because, of course, it was a fan concept, which is still up on YouTube. I think probably. And so I had seen it before. And so when I came in and saw that title sequence, which I actually quite liked, because if you're going to do the travel in time thing, I think representing that with clockwork. Like I approve of that. I think that's kind of cool. Oh, I agree, because I'd seen the thin one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Didn't they get him into? I think he does it. Yeah, they didn't just steal it. They asked him to come and do it. It's a bit generic time machiney. Yeah, so it's too HG Wellsey. It's the telling movie. It should have been the opening credits to the telly movie. Yeah, yeah. Actually, it is kind of a bit tell movie. We wouldn't have been surprised. Yeah, the telly movie. But I think it's an attempt to do something different, and I don't think it fails, and I kind of think there's stuff in the version of the soundtrack that reinforces those clanking gears and things. So I don't mind that. But yeah, it's not sort of terrifically great, is it? Talking of terrifically great. Let's talk about the opening sequence where the doctor's TARDIS is spat out of the dinosaur and we get our regular gang to come and meet the doctor. What do we think of that? I always felt that it was a bit forced watching it again. Yes, I would agree, and I would say it's not terrifically great. I think the fact that Peter Paldi has some work to do in this episode to land his performance, is actually down to that opening sequence, which is written in that very manic Matt Smith way, which I know is what's intended, but I think he's wrongfooted by it. I don't think that's his wheelhouse. And so it comes across as a little bit forced. The dialogue is not really up to the moth at standard we're expecting. Here we go again. Like, she says, here we go again. What does that even mean? And I just went, have you ever been at a regeneration? Have you ever been with another doctor? Like it just didn't sit well with me those lines? Like it was like, oh, we're just going to use the brigadiers lines and sort of tag it on. I know I'm picking it here. No, no, but hold the green one, the not green one, the asking questions one. all a little bit tired. Yeah, I do like the, well, you're both very similar heights. line. I think that there's some proper delivery. I think the problem is just goes on too long. It's just too long. There's something also weird where there's 3 shots that are either entirely or partly in slow motion. And I can't tell, is it because they don't have coverage? It looks really inept, actually. There's one scene where we cut back to the doctor and he's in slow motion for no reason to stretch out a shot. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what it is and it just looks like they didn't quite have the coverage, did they? Because that is a very obvious set down at the base of the Thames there with a couple of widescreen CGI shots thrown in. And you're right, Simon, that the pace of the scene is a little bit off. I generally like the more measured pace of this episode. Now, it's 78 minutes, which is that the longest Doctor Who episode ever beyond the 5 doctors. And so it feels like a telemovie and it's got a telemovie's pacing. I will say, though, that even though the dialogue in this scene doesn't land, it paves the way for don't look in that mirror, it's absolutely furious, which is brilliant. love that line. The moment they're in that bedroom, like straight after the credits, it just begins to pick up and I just begin to love it. But it's lines like that that make it less like Colin and a better version of Colin because basically he's insulting himself rather than the problem with the twin dilemma is that Colin feels he can do no wrong. He's insulting Perry. Perry, yes, rather than himself. It's really quite good. But what about the beautifully high definition Tyrannosaurus Rex? It's kind of like saying stuff you invasion of the dinosaurs. n, n n, n, n? But it's so weird too, because it's kind of as if he's written this scene where the TARDIS gets coughed up by a T-Rex and someone has said to him, you do realise they're not that big. They're not as tall as St. Paul's Cathedral. yeah. No, well, you can see it growling at a big band. In fact, that opening shot is wonderful because all you see is the T-Rex. Then you hear Big Ben strike, then you see the clock tower, which I just think is really terrific. So suddenly, 0 gosh, we're in we're in London with a dinosaur which is pretty awesome. And then there's those sort of lines that are doing this at a repair job, which are in themselves funny. So it's okay. All of that thing where Manavastra says she hasn't seen anything like it since she was a little girl. I think is all really quite terrific. Yes. Does anyone else think that the goo on the tartars looks less like the insides of a dinosaur and more like a hollow of semen? Oh, no. I've never actually thought about that ever. No, that's ruined it for everyone. Sorry. It's a Bonnie Langford ward from those... Let me get this straight. Your takeaway from that scene was the dinosaur came on the TARDS. It's a lady dinosaur anyway. They can still happen. I guess we'll be cutting that out. But there's a lot of human masking some quite dark moments. He's actually taking a turn for a much darker tone, generally. It's not just because, you know, everything's at night. Most of it's at night and it's all quite dimly lit. There is a more a great sense of foreboding than I think compared to something like the 11th hour or a lot of the Met Smith era actually, don't you think? I mean, tenant era. I think that that shot of the dinosaur catching fire is really good and really kind of terrible. Like, it's awful. It's so affecting, especially since, like, Peter's running on the rooftops and calling out to her and it's actually quite funny. He's being super silly. He's doing all the hand gestures, all of that sort of stuff. And promising that, yeah, see, that's the problem, isn't it? The moment the doctor promises that he'll get you home safe. Watch out. Yeah, yeah, they're in trouble. That's where affects work, isn't it? It's in service to the story. The effects actually make you feel sorry for the dinosaur. Yeah, yes. And and then the shot, you know, where we're on the bridge and all you can see is this sort of wall of smoke and flame. Burning dinosaurs. Yeah, it's really, it's pretty effective. It is sad, but then it's kind of punctuated by these really funny slapstick moments. I think the bit where stracks holds the times at Clara and she just goes backwards. But this incredible prat fall is hilarious. You can't even see her face. She sort of spins around and falls over. It's really fast. And then what about like when the doctor's falling down the tree and then he says, I have to relieve you of your pet. I was talking to the horse. There was some really funny stuff in there. But also, they're all thrown away quite quickly. It's like the, you know, don't look at that mirror. It's frightening, terrifying, whatever it is. Absolutely furious. These lines are set in between. Why did I forget that? These lines are said quickly in between other lines, like the horse line. It's not laboured on. And then I like that a lot. Don't we have the conversation with Vastra and Clara just prior to this where she's questioning the doctor being old or not coping with that investor's sort of telling her like he's not young and dashing anymore and that whole sequence where it's sort of like, I don't mind that per se, like at the beginning of the episode, it's sort of like, we'll put her in a place and let's get on with things. But of course, but she wins that. She actually wins that conversation. So we've seen her in conversation with Vastra wearing a veil in the conservatory before in the snowman. Remember, where she had to give the one word answers in what was a very good scene. Now we see our Clara in that same situation. And the reason that she's wearing the veil is because her opinion of Clara has plummeted because of her inability to accept what she's seen in front of her eyes, which is kind of how we sort of feel about her as well for that reason. But she wins that engagement. And I think there is, that is slightly undermined. Remember where she says, you know, my only pinup was Marcus Aurelius. I've never had a thing for pretty young man. You know, I don't know who you think you're talking to. But then we find out that her head is full of full of hub. Yeah, yeah, that's it. That is absolutely undermined by that throwaway line. With Strax. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where they're doing sport or maybe it's sport. sort of sport. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a problem. That's a very, very good scene, though, because, you know, we can't back and we don't notice that Vastra's not wearing the veil until she calls attention to it and the wearing the veil is her judging, you know, like it's associated with her judging Clara. You know, I think that's well done. And certainly Jenny liked it because she applauded. Victorian London is always my wheelhouse, so I like this episode is set there, but it's doing obviously the robot thing of having the familiar faces around to ease the transition to the new doctor. And while I'm not the biggest fan of the Peter Noster gang. I think they work in this episode to make the series feel reassuring and make you feel like even though we have a doctor who's a little bit different to what we've had for, you know, the return of the series. It'll all be okay. It's still the same show. Yeah. Yeah, and he didn't have to do that last time. In fact, he did what was a pretty extraordinary thing, something that hadn't happened since, what, Spearhead from Space, where he just relaunches it as a different program with a completely different cast and no familiar elements at all. And it comes off brilliantly in Spearhead from Space and it comes off really brilliantly in the 11th hour. Here, it's more sort of business as usual, and he is absolutely doing what we do in robot, I think. Possibly because the 11th hour. The doctor is the same. Obviously, there's cosmetic differences, but it's the same kind of doctor. The doctor is not different from how you would assume he would be. Yeah. Oh, you mean just the look of him. Now we have an old doctor, we need more reassurance. the energy as well. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with what you're saying about having the gang back and them all reassuring faces because they are in the 1st half of this episode up to about the 37 minute mark, much more than they are in the 2nd half of the episode, which becomes very much the doctor and Clara in jeopardy. I mean, I love all the stuff where Jenny is posing with her hair down. She's so beautiful, so beautiful with her hair. I actually think that's absolutely, you know, glorious. Why she's doing it? Well, you know. I just think that's kind of hilarious too, because like, you know they were always married, but it was always kind of a throwaway line, but here it is a little bit more domestic, and so you've got Vastra getting her to pose. She thinks she's being painted, but Vastra's just got her paranoia wall. You know, she's putting this red, red string on things. It's nice that Moffat at least tries to lampshade that weird dynamic where they start off being employer and employee, but then we find out that they're married, but for some reason, behind closed doors. They still act like employer and employee. It's a very weird dynamic. Yeah, yeah. And she calls her out. And in fact, the next time when they have tea, Strax comes and serves, and he's their butler, he should have been doing that all along. Strax is really terrifically funny, I think, and gets to do one or 2 new things. But the old favourites, like, we can allure the doctor here and melt him with ass. So great. You shall not. But he delivers that line in exactly the same way. All of that stuff is really good and that's Moffat being a sitcom rider and really just making us feel at home because it's not just the Victorian location and Clara and those characters. It's those characters doing their usual shtick, which is what is reassuring us that it's still the same show. But I think it's needed because, like, you know, within that, we've then got the doctor searching for his clothes with Brian Miller. Yeah. Oh, it was the Tramp Brian Miller. Yeah, yeah, yeah. husband. And you know, have you seen his face and he's rather intense and you know that he's going to take those clothes off the tramp there at the end. Like, that's not necessarily a nice thing to do. I find it a bit uneasy watching that. Yeah, I think you're meant to. And I think that that actually plays a fairly important role because it's pretty clear that the doctor is just going to kind of maybe not beat him up, but forcibly take the clothes from him. And then he turns up, then he turns up in the restaurant wearing the clothes. And when Clara says, where did you get those? He says, I bought them in a shop and she just goes, no. And he has to come up with some other story. So the fact that we don't see that altercation, but we're fairly certain how it went about, means that at the end of the episode where he has an altercation with the half-faced man that we also don't see, we're primed to read that as him pushing him out the door and killing him. And so I think that that that pattern is quite deliberate. Well, Stephen does it all the time. You know, he hides things in plain sight earlier in episodes that then pay off later on. And I can see where that's coming from, but I do find it to be nasty and not palatable. And I don't know if that's the right direction to go. I mean that scene is also funny. It's got that line of dialogue. It's very quick fire where the doctor says, I'll need your coat. And the tramp says, but I'm cold. The doctor says, so am I. So give me the coat. No point in 2 of us being cold. You're all cold with it, so... Exactly. Yeah. I think they're trying to bring back the Hartnell thing. Like, it is the kind of thing you can imagine, the heart and all dog doing. Like, for instance, he steals all those clothes in the crusade. And, you know, he's not, it doesn't have a problem with clocking the guy over the head in, in, was it Reign of Terror? Sarah, yeah. How do we feel about the paranoia that we've another bit of paranoia that the production team seems to have, and that is they've cast an actor who has been relatively recently in a relatively significant role in an episode, and they feel the need to explain that rather than just carrying on as if nothing's happened? I think it's sort of interesting because we don't find out until next year. It's not revealed. I know it was in this one. Yeah, I was expecting that shot of... I was fine because I actually thought, okay, fans know that we've seen the face before. It's flagged in case they want to actually reveal an answer at some point or not. And also, it gets us to think about regeneration again. And it's the usual Moffat thing of coming up with something that you never thought of, but you think, how come I never thought of that? And it's, who frowned me this face? I really like that. So both Clara and the doctor are kind of going, how come when I regenerate? I have a face that clearly has been lived in already somehow. And, you know, that's all just because regeneration makes literally no sense at all and it is just there to paper over the fact that we're recasting the main character. But I liked introducing that little bit of ambiguity there and it will pay off, I think. Look, it's fine. I don't have a huge problem with it. I just sort of thought, do we really need to do that? I mean, we've already had even in the space of the new series haven't we? had actors return Martha. Karen Gillan. Well, exactly. Well, Martha, though, is Adiola at the end. Yes, of course, and that's even the following year. That's probably the episode. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? I mean, what, are we supposed to believe that sometime between, you know, Attack of the Sun and Avengers of Varus Collins suddenly goes, where did I get this space from? And, um... It doesn't happen all the time. But, you know, I just, I just think it's, it's like it's, it's showing the 4th wall. It's showing that this is a television program and sometimes we cast the same actors. Have you watched the Moffatt era? Like, it's all that. I know. I know. I don't mind it. A little bit unfortunate that they feel they have to acknowledge it because I think it was whole era ago. I think the fact that he played Caicillius works against his early characterisation, the doctor, because they're trying to do something a little bit different, so it's not the same performance. And Carculus is a very light and funny performance and so they're veering away from that and they won't recapture that in Capaldi's doctor performance until at least next year. So I think it actually worked against it a little bit. I think, though, that this is a doctor who is questioning himself and he has that speech to Clara at the end, you know, like I've lived for 2000 years, not all of them have been good. And the thing that he says to the half-faced man, where he says you'll be surprised what steps I'm willing to take, how far I'm willing to go to protect those people down there. And, you know, like, the doctor's already been problematized as far back as the Pandora opens where he falls out of the sky and tears down your world. He's something so terrifying that he inadvertently raises armies up, who go chasing after him. And that's how Moffat's always done it. Now it's going to become a little bit more explicit what sort of characters. The doctor. It does make sense that he's going through, well, to me, it sort of makes sense that he's going through all that because effectively he's now entered a period of his life, which he shouldn't actually have. He's been granted a new set of regenerations or an infinite set of whatever it is. And so if you have that kind of... new lease of life. Well, it's not just a new lease of life, but what's the expression like? like survivor's guilt or something. Yeah, it's almost like Survivor's Guild. or he's a new death experience. Ne-death experience was the word I'm looking for. Yes. He's had the near-death experience. He thought he was going to die because that was it. And now suddenly he's got not just a couple more years, but a whole new set of lifetimes. And so, of course, he's going to reassess who he is and where he's at. I mean, there's something in that over the course of time of the doctor. He lived to be an old man and now he's an old man. Yeah, I actually... But I actually think that that's one of the reasons why Matt Smith's doctor dies of old age is because Moffat knows that he's going to regenerate him into a much older actor and he wants it to be a renewal, which is the word that Clara scoffs at when Vaster describes it that way. That's what Colin called it. I call it a renewal. But he's actually younger than he was before he regenerated, apart from that little moment at the end, which we needed to say goodbye to that doctor. Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, like that's that sort of a little bit deliberate. And I like that version of the doctor. I like a Doctor Who is a problem. And it's in the new series right from the 1st episode, isn't it? Where the doctor goes, destruction follows. He's dangerous. People die when he's around, all of that stuff. Like, I want that. And it's when one of my big aesthetic objections to the chymnal era is that he doesn't like that. He wants the doctor to be unproblematically good and I think that's a problem. I like it when it's done with a light touch. I think sometimes it's too heavy handed and... Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, it's obviously something we've inherited from the new adventures era. It's like that it's that era of the show that never was that has made its way into the new series. And I do agree with you that the civil era feels a lot more inconsequential as a result of that little bit missing. I also think that, remember, that the new series isn't so much based on the classic series as on our reactions to the classic series in our experience watching the classic series, and if the doctor spends 26 years blowing someone up every month or so, then the show itself needs to start reflecting an awareness of that. So I can see why Moffatt does that, particularly since Moffatt is wedded to Doctor Who as a type of story rather than a real world. And we talked about it a little bit in that 1st scene, there's a slightly uncomfortable chafing between what they're going for with Capaldi's doctor and in Capaldi's wheelhouse in his performance and the kind of manic energy that has characterised the doctor up to this point. That's why that 1st scene and some of this episode doesn't quite land sort of within the characterisation of the doctor because they're asking Kaporti to do things. They're really not what his performance is about. I'm not getting at him. He's good value all the time. And I think that by the end of his era, he will have become one of the all time great performance wise, but the series is still sorting out what it wants the doctor to be and it needs to make that clean break. It can't ask Capaldi to do the things that David Tennant and Matt Smith did. No. But I do think that he does get like a scene that is absolutely properly engineered to present him as the doctor, which is obviously at the end of the episode in the restaurant as it's flying over London and he's talking to the half faced man. And, you know, it emphasises that he is dangerous and a problem but it gives him a good sort of giant acting moment, a good moment to establish what his doctor's going to be like. And I think he does that. And his energy has become capable, yeah, rather than, yes, I can see the journey, Peter, that you're talking about and where we end up and I really enjoy that at the end. It's a real showcase for him and I just think his performances throughout his era are extraordinary. What I doesn't sit well with me is the relationship with Clara and it's in the restaurant where they're having their conversation about who sent the ad and how they're getting on at that point. And I want the companion to get on with the doctor. And that's, I think, a fatal flaw with Perry and the 6th doctor. And I think in these moments, throughout this episode, it's like that point where it's like, oh, Clara, give it a rest or doctor back down, um, that I have conniptions, maybe that's the word I'm going to use, or I'm not sure it doesn't. I just, I guess I'm stuck in the past where I know the mistakes of the past. Are they repeating themselves and will people be turned off by this? And I carry that baggage. And so I bring that to watching those scenes. You know, when he leaves her downstairs, like, and then goes off it's like, I can mean, I can remember going, oh, like, and a lot of people, I think, in that theatre where we watched it, were similar. And then she has to hold her breath for an extraordinary long term. I tried. lovely sequence. Oh, I think it's a lovely sequence. And, you know, you're waiting for him to grab her hand and when that happens, like you just want them to be on the same page from that point. But there are moments just between them and I go back to the end where it's just like, I don't know. And it permeates through this series, I think, in a number of episodes where she well, she slaps him next week, which I think is just one of the worst moments ever, but, you know, you might all disagree. And she's going to want to get out of the TARDIS like in about 5 episodes time forever. Is that the right way to go? I don't know. I mean, they're building it up and I can see where they're going. But it's those moments in this episode that I just kind of uneasy about. It's some of the heavy lifting that this episode has to do that's not only redefining the character of the doctor, it's redefining the character of Clara as well. So she's gone from being generic Liz Slaton light style companion to actually having all of these characteristics layered on top of her needy narcissistic game player, et cetera. Where have we really seen that in Clara before? She does come out as a bossy control freak, which is a line here but it's actually a quote from Time of the Doctor. And so there is, yeah, it is kind of new. But I think, like that scene in the restaurant is one of my favourite scenes, the one where the 2 of them. No, the 2 of them sitting at the table. Don't get me wrong. Yeah. I do think, you know, with all the people there. Because we're going to land on the doctor and Clara are the same you know, that they're really, really like one another. And so the fact that each of them goes into that conversation thinking that the other one has... And that comedy moment where Clara realises he was actually talking about her needy game player. I do like that I do burst out laughing this time through. But and also that thing, he pulls his own hair out to test the air in the room and it doesn't work because it's too short. So he pulls one of hers out and he says that it was the only one out of place. I was sure that you would want it killed. Yeah, which I just think is so terrifically funny and fantastic and something that Matt Smith would never have said exactly. But, John, I do agree with you to a point with the relationship between Clara and the doctor. I think it's mostly right. I just think it's only occasionally that they overstep the mark and maybe that's the line, maybe that's just the way the performance has been captured. But I still am broadly speaking, and I was at the time on board with this kind of, not bickering, not right. Again, it's like what we said back in the day. It's trying to do the Colin Baker type thing again, but trying to fix some of the mistakes that were made. Do they fix all of them? Possibly not. But I still don't mind it. What I love about that scene with the 2 of them in the restaurant is it's that moment and you get it in every post-regeneration story where suddenly the doctor is the doctor. He's not just some kooky post-regenerative thing, you know, running over rooftops and stealing clothes off a tramp. He's suddenly doing doctor things. There's a moment in between dilemma when that happens, there's a moment in time at the Rani when that happens. And often quite late, like back in the day, it would be like, it wouldn't happen to like most of the way through episode 3 or something. But, but it's, well, it's the same kind of point of the story. You're already kind of about two thirds of the way through. And now suddenly we're jettisoning all that and he's mainly the doctor and then you just get the occasional flash of post regenerative craziness for the rest of the episode. You go, yes, this is working. That's why I said it's like the turning point halfway through this episode. You could cut that in half in that restaurant scene, have a cliffhanger, and it then really becomes about the doctor and Clara as opposed to the gang that we're used to. I mean, you know, he does talk about moments I wish Amy was here you know, with the Sonic Screw. But isn't that just because Amy has long legs? right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That voice activated thing where she says you should have made it voice activated. Then she looks at his face. So it is voice activated, right? It's so like all of that stuff is really fun and funny and he doesn't win any of those conversations. And I think that's what... Yeah, yeah, yeah. And because we've also established Perry as someone who gets lusted after by men and manhandled, like her very 1st episode has her being pulled and pushed around by the master and stuff, like her body is kind of public property in a way that is super gross. And having the doctor do it to her in her 2nd story is just somewhere that you can't come back from. Here they're equal. And I think that that's what we're going for. I think we're going for. You know, she's going to have her face in the title sequence of episode 11 or 12, you know. They're equals and that scene, I think, is just marvellous because she scores as many hits as he does, I think. There are a lot of comparisons made between the 12th doctor and Clara and the 6th doctor and Perry's sort of bickering or slightly abrasive dynamic, but I think they get different things wrong. So the 6th Dr. and Perry. I think Simon and Todd and I probably have a warmer opinion of that than a lot of people do because even though it's written quite badly and the performers can't make it work. There are moments of genuine warmth between the doctor and Perry. And that elevates the relationship. Whereas here, even though the writing is much better and it's pulled off better. I don't believe that Capaldi or Jenna Coleman are particularly warm in their performances. And so it feels like a much cooler dynamic. I love what you've just summarised there. I think that works for me in terms of where my brain is sitting. Do you know what I see more of rather than the peri thing, even though that's the logical or the easiest comparison, I think it's more Janet. And Davidson's doctor, you can imagine Clara turning to him and saying, is that supposed to be Heathrow? You know, like, you know, or a line like that, the way Janet can be just so dismissive? Conversely, I can really imagine Tegan turning around to the doctor and saying, say that again. I'll slap you so hard. You're regenerating. Yes, exactly. No, exactly. Because you're right, because what Nathan, you were saying, is the relationship between the Sixer and Perry is actually a bit problematic, much as I love that era. But I will acknowledge that. I think that, because you've said this before, when we've been talking about the show, Peter, that part of your problem with what's happening at this point is that neither of the 2 leads is particularly warm and really at any point, you know, that they are kind of abrasive and unlikeable, in a way, both of them. And that's not how Jenna started, is it? She started looking after children and being kind to Mary and all of that kind of thing. That's right. She was also taking her cue from the doctor because, again, we mentioned on our last retrospective that Matt Smith's doctor is really not that nice and cuddly, but is played in a very warm and embracing way. So you can get away with a multitude of sins that way. And going back to the very beginning of this conversation, Todd when you were talking about ratings, I just had a thought that almost the most successful areas of the program are when there is a chummier relationship between the doctor and companion. You know, you think of the 3rd doctor and Joe, and obviously the 4th doctor and Sarah, and you've got then the tenant here with the various companions and so on, and Matt and Karen and so on like that. And maybe the program is less successful when they try and make that relationship a little bit too adversarial. In fact, you know, Pertwee and Joe are an interesting case in point because Pertwee is super obnoxious in series 7, like particularly obnoxious and unlikeable in a way that Capoldi is too. I think he's, you know, like there's one or 2 sort of charming moments where, you know, like he makes fun of Professor Stalman and asks if his spleen is acting up. Oh, that's another Doctor Who story that has the word spleen in it by the way. liver. Oh, is it his liver? No, okay, fair enough. How does his liver? Yeah, liver in this story as well. There is. walking around, like, in basses of death being obnoxious. But yeah, and then Joe comes along and because we love Joe, and because the doctor loves Joe. We know that the doctor can't be such a terrible person because he loves Joe and his right to do so rough edges off every time he's doing something. She's like, now, doctor. And you see that in that journey throughout seasons 8 to 9, you can see that from the beginning of that season. Whereas part of the point here of this pair is that there's no one to hold anyone back. And so the 2 of them just become worse and worse as the time goes by. And they will course correct with Bill and Nardle, which is part of what makes series 10 spoilers. So good. Yeah. Do you want to say no one's to hold them back in terms of production? No, no, they're just getting worse and worse, you know, like Danny I think. Maybe this season, you know, there's some moments. That's the biggest misfiring of this era for me, the whole thing with Danny. But I'm thinking about things like in Mummy on the Own Express. She's on the phone to Danny and they're having a conversation about her relationship with the doctor. So in a sense, there are 2 influences on Clara at this point or you know, this season and one's Danny and one's the doctor. But the doctor tends to win, you know? And so she constantly kind of is getting out of control to the point where, you know, we get sort of various terrible things happening in the two-part finale. And then, of course, you know, going even further ahead, she becomes the doctor to such a point that it kills her in season nine. So, so it's, it is not a fun relationship or it's, you know ultimately like it's described as an addiction or, or like a problem and maybe that was the bad idea. It's set up to deliver some hilarious one-liners and sequences to each other. Excellent. But yeah, which are superb. But as a whole, it doesn't warm me. It just warm my heart. Richard, we like watching Tom and Elizabeth and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. See, if Richard will here, I think he'd drawing comparisons between Spence Tracy and Catherine Hepburn. kind of, like that sophisticated kind of, you know, we're not going to show overt affection to each other, but we're going to sort of spa in cool ways. It's a bit Tom and Lala, really. But there it was underpinned by the performance because we knew that they were actually in love with each other and that's what comes out on screen. Yeah, there's real warmth there despite the coolness of the delivery and the coolness of the dialogue. There are more smiles. There aren't as many there aren't enough smiles to each other in this era, are there? Or maybe I'm just forgetting. No, you're right. It comes back to. It's not warm enough. Yeah, but it's not warm enough to deliver the dynamic that they're after. It's like I forgive the entirety of the twin dilemma at the time. In fact, I really enjoyed it at the time, but those last lines where, you know, Colin says, I'm the doctor whether you like it or not. And this little smile. smiles at each other and then you know everything's going to be all right. And I think that's the sort of thing that's actually missing here. Yeah, although I hate that moment. I just think it's her smiling at her abusive husband, you know like it's sort of gross. Like, even at the end, when they go off to get coffee, there's still an uneasiness there, I think that's where perhaps you're going with that. But taking things back to when they actually get downstairs into the actual spaceship, and Peter Capoldi is the doctor down there all of his little investigations around that when he obviously leaves her and then comes back to confront the clockwork man. Like he is the doctor. Yeah, 0 yeah. And I think that, you know, from that point forward, like there is a change in, well, what you were saying, Simon, like it does marry up the performer with the doctor. Do you know what I mean? And of course, we also then have Strax and Jenny and coming in to break the potential. possible sequence. It's a wonderful segment. I'm not, you know, all the... And then him just, the strikes just falling to the floor. Take the stairs. tying them back into the conclusion of this episode. It was nice to have the clockwork people back from... Yeah, an unexpected return. Unexpected return. Just something nice and not in a kind of a pivotal, we're going to destroy the universe. You know, they just need their bits of spare parts. Same kind of thing without being old. just the same story again. I think that there's some parallel drawn between the half-faced man and the doctor. And it's a scene where he's having the confrontation. He holds up the mirror or the platter, the silver platter, shows the half face man, his face, and says, is there anything left of what you were originally, you know, do you know where this face even came from? Is even there? Yeah, true. And so, and we think his reflection. in the bladder at the time. And so it is about him sort of questioning what's the point of going on in a way. It is a lovely thing, lovely analogy with the broom. Yeah, replace the handle, replace the brush. Is it still the same broom? Yeah, that's not, it's a completely different period. But it's just a lovely story to tell. one of those casually brilliant moth at moments where they realise that the hands on the half-faced man are different. It's quite gruesome. as is the skin, the balloon made of skin. That's actually quite icky. That was my last birthday party. What about the thing? He takes off the hand so that he can put the gas jet thing and he sticks it on his lapel and it's just there for the rest of the episode. It's great. But that whole confrontation with the half-faced man in the restaurant, I think, is just absolutely extraordinary. And it is, you know, where he lands as the doctor. realised performances from both of them. Yeah, ultimately, I think the episode hangs on just those 22 hander scenes. The one with Dr. and Clara in the restaurant and then the one with the doctor and the half-faced man at the end. Yeah. Yeah. And so he pushes him out, right? Yes, I'd imagine so. I don't think the clockwork man commits suicide. No. No. And so we get the introduction of the promised land, which comes up from time to time. And I quite like how the doctor's just too old and just absolutely dismisses any kind of religious ideas. And I think we've had 2 showrunners who have been interested in religion while ultimately rejecting it. So you get Capoli here being very blunt. It was a little bit like Pertu talking about your mythical devil to Joe. Yes. Oh, that's a nice confrontation. The impaled clockwork man is a bit... But I think that's really well done because the doctor, you know it's the usual thing with robots who only have to kill one robot and then the others all die, so we don't have to think of a way of dealing with them. Yes, yes. And some of the autons collapsing. Yeah, that's right. But we know that he's died because we see them collapse. Yes. So we see them collapse. Then we cut to the thing we see the hatch fall. We don't actually see him fall at all. And so we see the hat fall and I thought, oh, that's clever. They're just using the hat falling as a way of showing what's that he's falling because they couldn't have achieved. And Capaldi looking at a camera. And then, yes. But then he's impaled on the thing. Bunch like Matt himself nearly was at the beginning of the 11th hour. That goes like that thing of like, you know, repairing a clock with a chisel, one false step, the half-face manual, never tell the time again. And then the glorious missy. Yeah. Oh, what a star turn. If only that had been shot in the studio, she'd have eaten every chunk of scenery. amazing. She, I think, is my favourite master. It's her up to her in Delgado. It is. Sasha is an honourable mansion. Yeah, well, Sasha is now, I think, come up to that same level, but I think the 3 of them are, for me, the ones that truly count as the master. streets ahead of the others. Yeah, I still like John Sim. But Peter Pratt. Yes, and Jeffrey Beavers. See, for me, John Sims steps over a line, which is unfortunate in a way that's Missy's over the top and so Sasha Duan, but they're not, somehow they managed to keep it on the right side of the line. That's what Nathan's always saying about the master being crafted as an opposite for that particular doctor. Missy is the perfect opposing force for Capaldi's energy. John Sim is perfect for the tenants energy. I think that's right. And I think, you know, like the fact where she deliberately says oh, you know, do you like his new accent? I think I'm going to keep it. And so she's, that's the origin of her Scottish accent. She's just doing it because her boyfriend does. But isn't it great that there's, is it the foreshadowing of what we get in the Dalek story that starts the next season where, you know, it's that thing of, you know, you see that couple over there you're the dog. where she says, my friend, it's my best friend, my how does she refer to the doctor? Her boyfriend. Her boyfriend. And in fact, the word boyfriend is really freighted because Vastra says, you know, he's not your lover or your boyfriend and she says you know, I never expected that. He says to her, like the doctor says to Clara. I'm not your boyfriend and she says, well, yes, I knew that. And he said, yes, yes, but that was my mistake, you know. And now there's another boyfriend and like it's even underlined by the kind of robot way the half-faced man responds by repeating the word boyfriend, isn't it really awkward way? Do you think it's a message to certain fans? Like, he's not your boyfriend? Like, kind of delicious if it is. But I just think, like, it's Moffat doing the 1st regeneration where, like, he's not brave enough to cast a female doctor himself but he does cast a female master and she is just superb. Like, I think she's straight ahead of Delgado, to be honest. I have obviously a lot of affection for Delgado, whom I've known as the master for many, many decades, but I just think Michelle Gomez wipes the floor with it. I think she's incredible and she's called upon to, you know eventually bring a real depth to the character as well. I mean, I don't think Delgado's performance is camp performance. No. And Missy's very much is. So they're enjoyable on very different levels. Yes, they're quite different, but equally good. I think for me, Missy gets it because it sounds may sound ridiculous, but you know, the Delgado master always likes to wear terribly nice clothes. Like he's always got the terribly nice suit and the cigar and the big car and so on and she's got the lovely garden and the whole outfit and the umbrella and so on. Whereas maybe that's why I don't like the John Sims masters because he's kind of in a hoodie. doesn't work for me. He needs to be sophisticated. He needs to be more sophisticated and look more suave than the doctor. But it is his thing of um, at the end of this episode, like, so Steven's now introduced this, our thread for the season, like, if it wasn't about the doctor being a good man, then who is this mysterious missy? And of course, that's going to go throughout the entire series. But it's also, it's his new plaything. right? He's also got units and Osgood to play with coming back because he's already done that once. He's also working Danny Pink into the mix, right? as part of this season. So he's got all these new playthings. And so thus this is the last time we see Faster Journey and Strat. And I think that's a shame. I think for me, personally, it sends a signal like these characters don't work with this doctor. If you look at perhaps unit and that with Tom, yes, they were in robot, they were also interred the zygons. There was at least a phasing out of things. I would have liked to have seen them at least one more time with this doctor a bit further along the track where he is in his journey, whether he is with Clara or whatever, but that's never going to happen. I mean, as a final outing, they're brilliant, but I think it's a shame that we don't get to see them again. I think there's a real course correction after series 7 here for Moffatt, and I think that he reacts, as I've said before, against the previous season each season. And so 7 had no arc at all in reaction against series 6's, you know, very complex arc. And now we're back to him doing what he started doing, which is a romantic comedy set in a school. So this is him going back to press gang. And he gives himself lots of co-credits in this season. And I think that that's because he's writing the scenes with Danny and Clara. All of that romantic comedy stuff is absolutely just reeks of Moffatt even in the episodes that he's not actually writing. And I think he's particularly aware of the fact that following the 50th and all the hoopla and the celebration of the programs past that the program has to keep changing and do new things. And so getting rid of Vastra and Jenny and Strax, not because they didn't work or we didn't want to see them, it's just the program has to renew itself. It has to move on. And so we introduced the idea too of the afterlife. So we've got paradise, the promised land. We've got the half-face man turning up. after he's killed by the doctor. And I think that that is a theme and has always been a theme of Doctor Who is death, but now we're going to really tackle that, I think, in a way that eventually becomes quite upsetting by the end of the season. Well, the listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back next week for our long awaiting tribute to Raquel Welsh in into the Dalek. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcasts and you can keep up with us at flights for entirety on Facebook, at FDE Podcast on Twitter, and on our website, FlightthroughEntirety com, where you'll find links to our other podcasts, Bondfinger Jody InterTara, maximum power, and untitled Star Trek project. Until next time, remember that when saving someone's life, it's always best to underpromise and over deliver. Thank you very much for listening and good night. See you soon Bye for now. Good night. That was Flight Through Entirety, starring Todd Bilby, Nathan Bottomley, Peter Griffiths, and Simon Moore. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb. This episode of Peter Capoldi Shaped Time Tunnel was recorded on the 11th of December 2022 and released on the 16th of April, 2023. Once again, it's time for FDE Enterprises to launch its newest venture, Mancini's, a family restaurant chain, offering the latest in hastily butchered human offal in a thoroughly off putting Victorian atmosphere. Try the spotted dick. You'll love it. I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion of this episode. It highlights to me the strength and, you know, some of the falls of it. I mean, I was talking to Nathan earlier about saying that its biggest flaw is that it's not the 11th hour, but I think it's also its greatest strength as well. And I can see all the setup for the season and where they're going. And I think I think this episode is terribly underrated. Like I really, I really do think it's very strong. Like I don't want to say 9 out of 10, but I will. And I really am intrigued by Peter's performance. And through this discussion, I'm still uneasy about the way Clara has been written and written, not necessarily played because I think Jenna does a great job. It's the coolness that I probably have a problem with. But I do think it's a really good start to this season and what they want to do. It's more that competently and creatively revamping the show as he goes and proving that he's still firing on all cylinders. He's not content just to fall back on things that he did that worked. He wants the program to go off into uncharted waters. And so even though the episode itself is fine. It's very good. It's not one of the best. It succeeds in that respect. I think that Moffat has finally cast himself as the doctor. Have I said this on the podcast before? He's also cast himself as Clara. He's cast himself. Yeah, that's right He's cast himself as the doctor and so he's absolutely upping his game because he really doesn't want to embarrass Capaldi or embarrass himself in front of Capaldi. And so this does inject a kind of new lease of life into the show. I think he had 2 kind of fairly fallow years and now he's sort of really back in there. And I haven't seen all of season 8 in preparation for this, but I did like it a lot of the time and I'm looking forward to seeing what I end up thinking about it. I still sort of thought echoing what I said after the 50s. I think it's just, I think, I think the program is suffering from a hangover from its 50th birthday party. And I worry that the hangover lasts most of the rest of the decade and well into the next. Well, no, in terms of all the decade in the show. I think I think it's not sure. You know, it is what to do next. You know, we have to do something different. Pressure to do something different or do we just keep going along the same? I think I think you wouldn't have noticed it so much had Matt Smith done an extra year had he done the 51st year, then I think we wouldn't have been in this situation. I just think. And very noticeably when Moffat sort of runs out of new things to do and just does a greatest hit series 10 turns out really well. Yes, it's that thing of when you stop trying to do something different and just go back to basic sometimes it does succeed more much as I love the Moffat era as a whole. And I think what you're saying is that you're just basically dismissing the 2nd and 3rd of them, Matt Smith. No, no, I mean, I still like both of those, but I do think that seven. And when I said the last 2 years, I did mean series seven. Oh, and... Yes, I said to me. Yeah. Well, anyway, point being that I actually think what is showing is you shouldn't have a showrunner do more than one doctor. RTD manages it because Eccleston's only a year. Right. So that's kind of like a, that's kind of like the preamble to what what has actually become the new series. I think Moffatt's problem is that he does do 2 meaty, complete eras, and I think you get the JNT problem where they're kind of a little bit floundering as to what to do next. You can do a Barry Letts. You can do an entire era in the 1st season of the next doctor which is a bit of an amalgam of what can store. and then the next but then you need for that 2nd year or for partway through the 1st year. You need the Philip Hinchcliffe to take over and go, now we're going to go. We're going to do something else because I think only that new person can have the true vision. Yes. A truly new vision. I was looking through old Facebook posts and I came across a post that I wrote at the end of this night. No, after watching, after watching Twice Upon a Time, where I just said, oh, God, thank God, that's over. You know, the era of man pain is over. And I really like Moffat as a writer and as a showrunner. But I think, I think by the end of it, I was a bit sick of it and ready for something else to happen. Yeah, me too. Me too. He'd run out of tricks, hadn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think we can. I think there's an accident. Yeah, probably even before that. Before that, yeah, I think. Yeah, I would rather end on a positive. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. All right. Cool. Brilliant. Okay.