Evil Buddhists

Your mother needs socks in hair, doctor. Hello and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast who are all apt to submit ourselves to domination. I'm Brendan. Nathan. I'm here too, it seems. I'm a comment to make today. We're moving on. I'm Peter Miles. Oh, well, you stay on that side of the room. I wanted to nap because we're heading down another dark, gloomy old tunnel as we find... People spoke about him much more kindly than that. As we explore, the hairy caves of the monster and tell him. Oh, please. Like a carry-on film. It is, oh, a four-year-old. Well, not far off. It's the monster of Paladon. Thank you, dear listener. for bearing with us, for this part of the season, because is this the Nadir of pert weeness? We've got it a lovely return to Planet of the Peladonians, but it's actually a remake, isn't it? 20 something episodes ago. I actually started ceding references to what I was going to say about this story into my dialogue. And that's why we have the word tiresome. all the way through. This has been gifted to me that I'm really happy to share. It's the epitome of tiresome... Can we just have a little bit of etymological side glancing here for a moment? Is that the correct pronunciation rather than epitome? Because Kenneth Williams? Kenneth Williams is part of his shtick used to say, it's epitome. It's epiturp. And someone counted with it, fine. Well, I'm just taking a flight, so I'll see you at the aerodromy. Yeah, yeah, no. But yeah, apparently the ancient Greek. You've noticed, listener, this story will be about everything else except Monster of Berylton. Well, shall we then? Oh, and Lenny Maine... I felt like a Dumbritz and Capes, because we come have to come back to that again. Is Lenny Main directing again? You know what, though? It looks pretty good. Nice sets. It feels atmospheric. It's very, again, a little bit Errol Flynn down the Catacombs. So, how much did we enjoy? Monster of Palad? Well, Todd actually would like us to... Do we have to go through the Tod scoop? Can we let's dial up the Todd scoop. I'm sure he's out there somewhere hovering around in that octahedron of his. Well, here he comes. Put his, you know, put your knees together, Todd. We can all see up there. Well, the monster of peladin is tied before it even begins. Is it the weakest 3rd doctor story? I managed to watch this in 2 viewings as opposed to Planet of the Daleks, so I'm going to say it's not, but you might agree to disagree with me. It's either this or the mutants. And I think... I'll bugger off mutants. Yeah, we like the mutants. You like the mutants. I think the mutants probably has more going for it politically going on in the in the narrative. It's got beautiful characterisation. Woo-woo sets and John Hollis in a lovely pink bathrobe. Meanwhile, maybe we should talk about why this went wrong. It's boring. It's slow. No one cares. Barry Letts had just lost Moonbase 3. So he was back in production. and not happy about it. That was his ticket out of here. It was the BBC had seen Jerry Anderson's Empire, kind of quail. It was UFO 2 was meant to have started production. We can just segue, you know, the glory days of ITC with shows like The Saint, the Baron. Jason King, which, again, we haven't mentioned before, polarises a lot or reverses the polarity, I should say, of a lot of the pertly era because the Jason King character. You might say imbues. They both started exactly the same point. But I really think a lot of Pertwee's characterisation, not just the flamboyant, uh, if you want to say, the post-Bo Brummel look that, that, exactly. But also that very Leslie Howard-esk manner of acting. Leslie Howard was the Scarlet Pimpernel in all those Baroness Auxey 40s movies. He was Ingrid Bergman's dumped object in Casablanca. If you think back. But that very much that style of throw the line away and kiss abroad and smoke a siggy. And I think that's what Pertz was always trying to get. But I've got to actually say Pertz had more humanity than that and it never really came across, you might disagree, but he always came across as a bit more fragile and a bit more sensitive than that and more doctorly. He was never quite the callous regency buck that those other actors were playing. We talked a little bit about how perch we, after his 1st season starts to reflexively support kind of progressive causes. And anti-feminism, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I mean, in fact, this story has him tell Sarah to stay behind and talk to the queen and then Sarah says... Which one love, they all look like. No, no. Like the doctor gets Sarah to tell Queen Thalira about feminism. It's probably the most ponderous. It's terrible, the same. And then it does boil down to essentially one of the best Sarah Jane lines, which is there is nothing only about being a girl. Really? I just think that clanks. I think that's absolutely wonderful. I mean, it clanks slightly when it's brought back up in episode six. There was nothing more only about being a biner than there is about being a girl, Your Majesty. There's nothing only about being a poacher, pig. If it was being said to a human at this point in history, yes, it would be clunky. But because it's never occurred to Queen Thilera, that she can be an equal to a man. It does have to be put in very black and white terms for her. And I think, you know, there's nothing only about being a girl. Liz delivers it really well. And I think it's still relevant today, sadly, with, you know, sort of Disney saying things like, oh, no, we don't put Black Widow on our Avengers merchandise because little girls don't buy them at engines merchandise. Disney have actually... gone backwards. Yeah, no, we've gone backwards that far, haven't we? And yet look at Diana Reagan, the Avengers, on whom not, you know we... Well, we know... We know that Stanley got the title from the ABC series. He admitted that later on much later on. Black Widow was based entirely on Emma Thiel. Yeah. And, you know... Bugger. You know what? I'd be happy to see Scala Johansson as Emma Peel. No, I actually want Jenna Coleman. Oh, yeah. Weirdly. Or Rachel Sterling. I'm not even a fan, obviously, but I'm not even a fan of Jenna Coleman in Doctor Who, but I would love to see her as an Emma Peel character. We haven't even got to how samey characters get in the new series have we? But I think, you know, we're still getting lots of variety. saves this one. And speaking? No, she doesn't. It's gonna be one of those episodes. Well, it's not good in it, but it's not saved. Why don't they? Come on. She and Eckersley actually save it. I love Donald Geek. That's king. Speaking of that, terrified butter, as he was known to, isn't it? Speaking of actors, I do actually think on the whole, this has a better cast than Curse of Pelican. It's got a really much better cast and I actually think it moves. Okay, it doesn't necessarily move. I love that Ultron. Is it Ultron? Don't have you noticed? Joe to his mates. Yeah, have you noticed? Well, exactly. Have you noticed how the miners have all had a complete makeover and done up as badges? I think that was Ortron. I'm sorry that it's just not having it. I'm not saying. Maybe you're onto something. I think blore is a much more sensitive performance than grum. And he's sexier. Really? The silent king's champion. It's got one of the best fight sequences of all time for Pertz. And even with his bad back, Okay, it's actually Terry Walsh in a new wig. No, but it's not he's not got the new wig yet. So he's still got the appalling wig, which has a great sign on it saying, Terry Walsh under him. Look how good Jerry Walsh is not here. Yeah. And then, and then the entire dialogue is amazing. He actually does get a line of dialogue, doesn't he? That fight scene, we get his face. Like he's getting the face. If you haven't picked up all the Welsh mining references so far. This is on the mountain. I thought he was tossed down a pit in the 1st one. No, he's tossed down a pit here. Yeah, yeah. Funnily enough, they're asking how to Agador. Oh, yeah, yeah. Not for the fight with Ethis. No, the fight with Edis is on Mount Mageshra or something. You know, Mageshra was actually a character and then they rewrote it as a mountain? That's how terrific the narrative of this is. That's true, by the way. Inspired by just the incredible mess that the Monster Paladon is we've not really contextualised. you have to? So we're back on Paladon. And there's a monster. Okay, it is good because it's another RKO horror film of the 30s 40s and it looks the same and I love the model. It's the same model and I love the wind so effect. Kind of like the score in this too. Whenever Dudley gets a chance to do sort of a regal thing. And it's a proper scoring and he, yeah, he put the work into it. There are ice warriors. Are you surprised? Gosh, they're terrible too. And like last time, and this is sound... is the listener thing? Yeah, you know what, guys? You make this part. We're gonna go have a drink. I know I love the Ice Warriors and everything. I do have to say I love them in this as well. Always good to see Sonny Caldon. Weezy heave, heave. No, they're shockingly bad. Santa says, and we, I think we probably said something like this at the time. Pertu is kind of racist against the Ice Warriors. When Trouton last encountered the Ice Warriors. He was shooting them with a big solar gun and just wiping them out. Yeah, very untrown. Yeah, not really. And then, so when Pertwee encounters the ice water is in cursive Paladon. He thinks they're the bad guys. And Joe isn't buying that straight away. And then we eventually discovered the Ice Warriors. are actually good guys. They've gone from being terrible murderous monsters to being federation people who are on the side of good. And so pertu is proved wrong and there's moral progress in the universe. Here they're just back to being sort of bad guys who are pretending to be federation things. And so I just spent the entire time thinking about how huge their bums are and what great big beer guts they have. Well, stop, actually, I'm getting excited. Yeah, I'm sitting right here. And they're lumbering and sort of terrible looking, really. I mean, I just think colour has not been kind to those costumes at all. They're horribly bright green and fluffy. They're awkward. They're just not very menacing. And and I've never heard anyone mention this, right? In the ice warriors. There are 2 kinds of ice warriors. There's the ones with noses and then there's the sort of pineapple headed ones that don't have any nose. Yeah, and he comes back in this. He comes back in this because they've got lots of ice. So there are only 2 ice warriors in Curse of Paladon, but now we have lots of them. And so we're having to haul out the old pumpkinhead ones that we didn't even use in seeds of death, for God's sake. Yeah, yeah. Here they, you know, here they are again. And they just look lamentably terrible, I think. I think another big problem is they seem to have had a repaint since Curse of Paladin. Because in Curse of Peladin, they were more of a bottle green. and now they're bright green. In Curse of Peladon, there was variation in the colour. It was slightly mottled, whereas this is a far more solid kind of green. I agree, they look a bit shoddier in this, and it's not because of the condition of the prop, in my opinion. It is entirely down to the paintwork, just looking too clean for a bunch of warriors. And again, by episodes of 5 or 6, The doctor's just killing them. Like he's got control of the Agador statue with the heat ray and he just makes it appear and kills a whole bunch of them. I mean, it's terrible, you know? Yeah, I suppose the doctor does... Even more than Daleks and Sidemen kind of directly attacks the ice Warriors whenever they appear. It is a bit strange. He's opposed to lizards I think. After all these years with Malcolm... Well that's why Malcolm Hawk never comes back again. Actually, we didn't mention last week, but apparently the reason Malcolm Hall didn't come back was all the stuffing about he had on invasion of the dinosaurs. Like, you know, he wanted to do this really strong political story and he had put dinosaurs in it. And then the final draw was when they took dinosaurs out of the title because he's like, now no one's going to watch the 1st episode. How dare you put such a dull title on my thing? He was getting out of television anyway, which was way coming back and wrote the novels. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's true they didn't really respect his talent and wrestle. But you could see how the production was going. It's also because Letts and Dicks were away, so it was really being handled by other blokes. He should have had more freedom. This is ostensibly supposed to be a political story of the kind that... Which they've been doing. It's meant to be the... It's the 3 day week you mentioned. Yes. Yes, but it's terrible. It's just appalling. The politics are shockingly bad. Xander goes on about this as well, but it's really obvious from just a cursory viewing of it that the natural of order of things is that there are nobles and there are minors and the nobles tell the miners what to do. What's happened here is we've got the Federation, all of this stuff, which was supposed to bring all these benefits to Paladon the minors aren't enjoying any of those benefits. Pertway comes in is on the miner's side. But when the episode ends and the natural order of things is restored, it's back to Queen Falira, who is completely useless, has never done a day's work in her life, proactively once bit Donald Guy's hand. But that's the only thing that she's actually ever achieved. A very convincing phoney list, purely. Nina Thomas doesn't actually speak with a lisp. So do you think somebody was taking the pith in this? and that she, the scenes between she and Pert, they're just sibilant city? David Trout. Borrowed Trout, please. That one I thought that was the royal list here, the royal list. But I think the point is, politics is a really valid one. Because even when this was broadcast, That had already been done and dusted and finished off. Yeah, in fact, that was over by the time this came on TV. Yeah. Well, well, I think it was... There was a new government in power by now. The government came in during invasion of the dinosaurs, went back to the 5 day work week, got the minors back to work, got the power back on. There was a big viewing spike in invasion of the dinosaurs because suddenly a lot more people could watch television. Exactly, which is what they were saying. But you like the biggest thing in the news at the time was not just the death of Glam Rock. It was announced in the press. Slade's Christmas song was still in the charts. We were always calling the Death of Glam, so it's kind of the death of Pertley era as well. But apparently a revolution in Portugal had been sparked by the Eurovision song contest. No, it wasn't sparked by the end. I'd like to think about... But it did take place at the same time and there's some story about it, the revolution against Salazar, and they all kind of... He was a nice story to the streets. I thought he was played by Patrick Trey. Yeah They all head onto the street. But singing it and dancing at a particular moment during the broadcast. I still blame the revisions. But the, the, um... So the doctor comes in and the minors are all irrational and they're all superstitious and they're stupid and they're... It's not stupid. awful, isn't it? Easily led. And what they need to do is shut up and get back to work while the doctor solves the problem for them. And the doctor's constantly telling the miners to get back to work. And like the whole thing is... It's so bloody patrician, isn't it? Yeah. Tom Baker wouldn't have said that. Let's go and stop a fire. Yeah, Troughton would have as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. rubbing his hands gleefully. acid. Yeah, yeah. It had all had everyone's even Hartnell, you know, he would have smashed it. And this is the only middle class doctor we've ever really ever had. I think a big problem is... except for Colin Baker. Brian Hales seems to be quite a conservative writer. But, I mean, in Curse of Paladon. Superstition was kind of retrograde and was holding us back and technology, and in particular, we talked about it at the time. sort of transnational cooperation. Do you know what I mean? Like it was about joining a federation, joining something bigger than a mere nation. And all the way through that early part of the Pertwee era. That's seen as a progressive force. And here in Monster, we even go back on that, the moment that it looks like the Federation's going to get involved, suddenly Joe Ortron and Garebeck are on the same side and they're working together. you know, them banding together with their horrible oppressive hierarchy and all of that sort of thing. Terrible headers. All of that's forgotten when we have the chance to get angry at some foreigners. And so the idea is really weird It's really, really politically shockingly bad. And they're only justified in that because the ice Warriors have become evil again, which they don't know. No. No, they get back and also don't know. Yeah, they just think it's the Federation. To segue for a moment, Gebek, the lovely, sadly, no longer with us Rex Robinson. He's great. Yeah. I would say he is the best guest actor in the story. I know Donald G is very good, but I find... I like Rex Robinson as well. He's so sympathetic with it, and he makes the only realistic actually, Pell character in the episode, even with that terrible Elsa Manchester, Bride of Frankenstein, Afro, Freightwig. It's as if Black exploitation. Black exploitation meets exactly. You know, young Frankenstein actually wasn't out until 1975. And yet they're actually doing the Madeline Khan look in this in this. Do you know who did the hair in this? Elizabeth Morse. And we didn't really see her again until she plays Peggy and Mad Men. See, there's a woman who was hanging around the throne room. Vegan Nexus. We haven't gone onto him yet. Oh, Vegan Nexus. Played by 60s Dalek operator Gerald Taylor. He's a hairy carrot and Mr. Tumnus in one. It's like, it's like a carrot and Mr. Thomas had a foxy weekend or a frisky weekend after the Fox and Fawn pub and Mega Nexus was the result. Do you know they were looking at doing a figure in the range? God knows why, but the Dennis Fisher range was kind of, he was one of the ones I can get. He was only here for 3 seconds, but he was so popular with the children. He's awfully calm, isn't he? He's got those... He's so good There is nothing for you to fear. Welcome to the world of tomorrow. He's great. I'd like to think he's one of Azol's mates. He's kind of like a lesser demon character. Yeah, maybe. But he's a mining engineer, which is lovely. He should wear a shirt, probably, if he's... Well, maybe his people think that's obscene. Get your nipples out, there's nipples. Yeah, not much going for it. Terry does play someone else apart from the doctor, by the way plays a minor, I believe. No, no, he's a he's also a guard. Is he a guard? he gets locked up for an episode because we've got six... Oh yeah, that's right. the guard with the coin trick. Yeah, God, it's boring, isn't it? I love that Kurt grabs Sarah by the ear at the end and leads her into the Tartars. It's really nasty. You can't see him getting away with that. Well, why do they do that? That's awful. It's well played, you know, as much as it possibly can be by the 2 of them. You know, he's not angry with her. She thinks it's funny. Like, the way it's played kind of almost wrestling. I think it's a Terrence Sticks moment. awful. It's awful. The whole thing's awful. And, you know, Sarah gets that speech to Queen Thalira. There's nothing only about being a girl. And as I said before, she does nothing. Like, if that, it smells of dicks all over, doesn't it, that line? If it had inspired her to be heroic. You know what? I do, she doesn't get enough, but I think she does get a few moments of heroism. Like, you know, biteckersly's hand, but that's really it. And then she tries to escape out the thing, but fails. and then she watches all through the back passage, yeah. Yeah, but also when when he's then dragging her along, she actually stops him in a pile of bodies and has this quite, quite good few lines berated. Look at what you've done. Look at what you've created. It comes too late in the story. And why do so many people get killed? It's not fun. Isn't it interesting? It's killed. It's interesting that they land again and the scanners on the blink just like it was last time. Do you think that the Tartars might just have not been able to bear to watch? Yeah, he doesn't want to watch Beladon. It's the boredom capital of the universe. See also vengeance on Baroffs. Scanners on the blinker. Actually, vengeance on Baros really is a remake of this story isn't it? Miners. I mean, it certainly has I hate that story. Can't wait to have done that. I mean, in that story, we just hear that the miners have started looking like badgers rather than actually seeing them. They do. Badgers. With Quillum turning them into badges. Quillam's turning them into badges. Oh god. So that's an homage to this story. Yes, yes. Is that a mess? Is anything salvageable from that? Do people have fun making this? As much as we've had fun reviewing it? Hurt we had already decided to go. Yeah, he's not really there for this one is he? I believe... I've heard from, I heard in an interview with Liz Sladen that usually during studios and whatnot, pert we would be warming everyone up and chatting away and whatnot. Apparently during this, whenever he wasn't on camera, he had brought in a little foldable desk and a little foldable chair and all of his fan mail and he was personally responding to all his fan mail between takes and not speaking to everyone. And he said in the years later, that was because he knew how hard it would be to leave. So he was effectively weaning himself off. Well, he was actually writing to them all. Write in and tell them that I have to stay. Give me more money. must have it. Ask my aunt. Ask mummy and daddy to put £5 in an offer. I mean, what this story has going for it is it does have some very nice moments, possibly enough nice moments to make up 2 episodes. You've got. pretty generous. I agree. It would have been a much better as, you know, a three, possibly four, but 6 episodes. What were they thinking? As you've said earlier, it's just a cost-saving measure because they've still got the set. Well exactly. So Lenny Maine had all of that. Where's the money gone? I can't see that. I think it's Ron and his wife. Because his wife is standing around in the background of the... Oh, yeah, she's the attendant. Yeah, yeah, dressed as a Cadbury chocolate. Is she Australian as well? I don't know. Do you know, it is that it is actually the same purple. It is Cadbury Purple. We never actually said that. Now we'll get sued. No, I mean, you've got, for instance, at the end of episode one Pertwi says, what the bloody hell is it? Does he? He doesn't say it, but well, okay, here's the thing. When the Agador statue appears and kills blore, you cut to the doctor and there's lots of noise and effects and whatnot and you can't actually hear what Pert was saying, but lip reading, it looks pretty clear that he either says what the bloody hell is it or what the blue blazes is it? And it's very hard to tell. And I think Mark Ayres is fiddled with the sound and even he can't figure it out. It's the Hound of the Baskervilles, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, Agador. Yeah. But he wears white socks. You've got the fact that you've got the fact that Agador himself is back anyway. You have the doctor and Sarah in that pit lit very moodily, which I remember was a childhood nightmare of mine. Mood lighting. Mood lighting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you have Sarah's, you have Sarah's wonderful relationship with Alpha Centauri. Yeah, again, it's the same thing that you noticed with Bel Al where she's initially kind of a bit freaked by, you know, slimy penis monster. But she gets over there. There's a crash on it. Yeah, which is really good. It helps Sarah to realise that there is a being, there is an entity and a consciousness. It's not a monster. It's a person. Stuart Phil. It's Stuart fell in Yuzan church. And, you know, she says, look, you know, I'm really sorry. I'm just jumping. It's my fault. It's nothing you've done because Alpha always blames everything on itself. Sarah also has a bit of a fun relationship with Eckersley. His his treachery at the end isn't surprising in the slightest. No. He's been kind of staring into the Middle Eastern significantly and stuff. I also love that he's reunited with something from his very 1st Doctor Who appearance. Is he in the space park? He's in the space pirates, wearing the ice lord helmet. He is. He is. And so yeah, that's the real reason they're working together, of course. And we also get Pertley's heroic last sand as the multicoloured tinsel is swirling round his head. Sarah thinks he's killed twice. Once in episode 4 and once in episode six. Yeah. She's convinced that when they blew up the Sonic Lance, the doctor was killed and you've killed him and all of that. And someone says to her, no, no, it's okay. They just killed Terry Walsh. They've just killed poor... No, Etis. No. Why? This makes me angry as well because he's like, you know, he's a minor who's unprepared to accept the great chain of being and the fact that queens are more important than he is and that drives him crazy and he's going to kill everyone because working class people are essentially just a moment. that's right. Is it better or worse than his appearance as Trantist in Dalek master plan? It's much worse. is he's a diva. But I think his best role is still Bert. Yeah. Toss up. Burt for the... From the Green Death. He is too. Yes, the poor minor who calls Joe Blodwin appears in this as a minor who just gets angry at people and tries to kill Terry Walsh. Yeah. We can't have that. We've all had days like that, though, haven't we? Only the doctor doesn't have to kill Terry Walsh. No, you're probably right. What else? I like Kurt, Terry Walsh, please. Yes. Let's come in. He plays 3 separate parts, doesn't it? This one? Well, 3 guards as well as the king's champion in this one. No, he's not the king's champion. That's right. He's the guard captain. I told you last time that Death to the Daleks was the 1st story I had ever watched. And for some reason, I think, after Death of the Daleks finished the night that Peladon was on, my family had to go out and like I was 10, there was nothing I could do about it, so I missed Doctor Who. And I thought, well, if I've missed episode one. I shouldn't really watch the rest of it. So I waited until Planet of the Spiders was on and I never saw this in 1978 at all. And I think that that probably just improved the quality of my childhood, just that slightest bit. Yeah, you know, I think I think the actors are all really good, but just the material, the story, it kind of betrays Curse of Peladin for me because Curse of Peladin, it's meant to be a great thing that they're going to join the Federation, and then it turns out Actually, no, the Federation are taking horrible advantage of them. And I think we're meant to believe that, oh, no, no, it's just this side of the Federation, the rogue side. It's not the rogue side ordering the mining. It's not the rogue side that's at war with Galaxy 5. Exactly, you know? It's. Yeah, it's really because Curse of Peladon, I think, is one of the best pertly stories. And yeah, I think this just this is this is the X-Men 3 of Doctor Who. It's really trampling all over it. don't know what he's talking about. Nor do I. I said, where a little bit can go for far too long away. Well, something's about to go far, far, far away at the end of Planet of the Spiders. So this is my story, and it's obviously a giant celebration of the entire kind of pertwee era. And to that end, it's just chock full of elements that we've seen before. And as I've decided that making lists is my new forte. And so here's my giant list of things that we've seen before okay? And feel free to leap in and add to it. The brigade is only in episodes one and 2 until the final scene and then he comes back, which is just like the time monster of the time warrior, where the brigadier drops off. In the middle of a unit story, we go off to another time or planet like in day or time monster or time warrior. Check. The villain is something from mythology. Demons or Time Monster. We get to meet the doctor's guru from the Buddha's flower sermon which we had in time monster. There's a long, boring car chase in episode two, like the long boring car chase in episode five, of invasion of dinosaurs. Up and down the same length of road. This is great. Is it a camera reverse? Much of the action takes place on the planet, Metabolist 3, which you've got... Yeah, well, the spiders call it Metabolis as well, so I think we have to get rid of that theory. No, I like that. It's the TARDS translation artefact, I'm sure. So that's kind of a Monsters and Green Death mentioned that. A lot of really shockingly terrible CSO, which I think is a harkback to Terror of the Autons invasion of the dinosaurs Carnival, monsters and pretty much the rest of the last 5 years of Doctor Who ever since they brought it in. We get Joe mentioned in her marriage. We get the drashigs appearing on the screen. We get Mike Yates finalising his character arc. Yep, we get Bessie back, who we last saw in the Green Death. Still no lines. Still no lines. She doesn't talk pretty much, does she? But the big gaping emission, which was completely unavoidable, is of course, Roger Delgado, who's the signature villain of the Poetry era, who was fabulous in season 8 and whom we've grown to love over the last few years, and we've already said why that is. Yeah, yeah. He had unfortunately been killed by this time. However, he is, if you like, represented in the story. His wife, Kismet Delgado, which is the queen. She is the queen. Is she the queen? And she's also the great one. She's the queen and the great one. She's fantastic too. She's really lovely. The sad thing is, it was an unregistered taxi. He was in Turkey with 2 crewmen and it went when it went over Cliff. His life insurance didn't cover it because the taxi was unregistered. So she had no, she didn't get any payout. Yeah, I think eventually they settled with the movie company because the car that was meant to pick him up didn't turn up. So being the professional he was, because he was due on set. He was curious about being early. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And I believe eventually she, if she did see, she did see compensation for that. But this was this was Barry Lett's saying, oh, you know, we should help her out. And she's fabulous. She is really good. more voices. That's terrific. That voice. I've mentioned before that my mother sort of clings to a few things she remembers about Doctor Who. One of the things is that voice. Whenever she hears a shrill voice, she'll always turn to me and say, oh, the great one. So imagine if you will dawn French doing that. Your mother dawn French. My mother is very, my mother is a cross between Dawn, French, and Sarah Jane Smith. Dream come true, then. and it's Mother's Day. Happy Mother's Day too. It is, we are recording this on Mother's Day. I'll be emailing her later. She's galavanting across Europe at the moment. And also, Nathan, returning in this story. We have. I have the castle is different. just going to go down. So you can you can check these off for me while I go. John Durth returns. He was boss. He was boss. Andrew Staines and Christopher Burgess return? Yeah, so that's Good and Professor Phillips. Yes, from Terror of the Autons? Terence Lodge. He's Moss and he was Aurum in Carnival of Monsters. That's a lovely gray pasty thing. Yeah, yeah, he's great in that too. Kevin Lindsay? He was lynx in the Time Warrior. George Cormack? He's Campo when he was Dalios in the Time Monsters. which is where Campo was mentioned. Pat Gorman? Terry Walsh. Stuart Fell. So they're all kind of Silurians and things, everything. Walter Randall and Max Faulkner? No who are they? Walter Randall. Walter Randall was Harry Slocum in Inferno. And go right away. And what's he? He is one of the guard captains. And if we go right back to the Aztecs. He is Tonila, one of the high priests, and he is also Saladin in the Crusade. Okay, you've left some out? Yeah, I'll be coming back to those in a moment. We got Yosan Churchman. Ah, yes. as voice of Alpha Centauri and the spider. Yep. And I had to leave the best to last. Oh good. I'm glad you did not left him out. We've got Cyril Shat. Who was Dr. Lennox in Ambassadors of Death? Delicious, delicious. Yeah, yeah. Playing a kind of... He's cosplaying as the doctor. He is. He's lambasting and isn't he terrific? He's kind of what cosplay Doctor Who would, you know, what a fan would have thought Doctor Who actually looks like with Professory Beard, you know? Between that cast, we actually have representatives from every year of the Pertwee era. And you know, I don't think that's an accident. not at all. And most of these people who've appeared before appeared in Barry Let's directed stories, and I think Barry Letz has consciously gone back and gotten probably people that John got on quite well working with. And I think that is a lovely, lovely aspect. Yeah, of course, in the new series when we do that sort of thing we get them back in the same parts. You know, we get things like the stolen earth that just has everyone who's appeared in the last 4 years, except for Eggleston because he doesn't do that anymore. But no, I think I think it's a lovely touch. And you know what? I'd always been aware of it. But Andrew Staines and Walter Randall and Max Faulkner. I hadn't noticed before until I rewatched it actually keeping my eye out. But for another note on the cast, Todd has a question for us. Has the Pertwee era in its dying throws discovered the pinup boy of 1974 in the younger son of Sable. Oh, look, we do if you're still watching top of the pops or it's very pop, isn't it? And not pop art, just as in pop groupie, that whole village of the oddly washed socks. It's some, yeah, the gypsy caravan of courage, dorcet thing. Yeah, but I really like Gareth Hunt and that letter. No one that really stands out as being terrific in that village although some of them have been memorable for other reasons. Jenny Laird, their mother. Exactly. Jenny Land of the Eponymous Award. Yes, and we have another question from Todd. Will Jenny Laird be nominated and even win her own award. We worstly want to give it to someone who's won. Well, look, I was actually going to say, but she's just not good enough to do that. You'll have to go to somebody else's. Well, the reason we have the Jenny Laird award for most puzzling creative choice is because there was a Jenny Laird award at Rada which is where she went and do we all know the old joke about Rada? How do you know if someone's been to Rada? The Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts? They tell you. right. What do you mean there was an award at Ryder? Because she was so esteemed at Rada? There was a Jenny Laird award at Rada, which is why this podcast has a Jenny Laird award. So when you're saying she was so esteemed, we should... Star Wars wife. She has 63 acting roles mentioned on IMDb and her career ranges from 1935 to 1991. I don't know what the hell had she suffered a recent blow to the head or something when she was in this? It is all so on to play. She's like Joy Harrison in that everything is on the one level. No, I shan't you shan't take him. Sabo, my husband, my love. Why did you do it? Why, why? No, I shan't let you take it by Shantaijan. And die. Yeah, and that's like, that's not an exaggeration of her delivery. That's actually what she sounds like. I've been waiting an entire year to say this. Oh, gosh, she's bad. She's really terrible. So the Jenny Laird award, as given by Rada. is for achievement in a thankless role. As well as receiving the award, the recipient received £5 and a hug and a hug. If it was a bankless role. past winners, included Jan Chappell later to be Callie on Blake 7. She should have got it for Callie on Blake... Perhaps presciently. Doctor Who's Richard Franklin achieved the Jenny Laird Award during his training in the late 60s. So can we talk about? As a boy, most likely too. So let's get back to the... Let's get back to the actual story. So the whole thing opens with Mike Yates, and I think it's probably a bit of a surprise to the audience at home. He's got a lot of hair. He's looking pretty good and he's retired to a sort of Tibetan lamastery. A lamaster, yes. And up to north. Barry Letts is not Tibetan Buddhist. Like, he's not a Vadreana Buddhist. He's into sort of Zen Buddhism. And that story is much more Zen. Well, he mashes up ideas. And he admits to this in interviews that he's using ideas from sort of different strands of Buddhism. But very early on, we see the people chanting around the Mandala which depicts the Baba Chakra, which is decoration outside Tibetan monasteries. And Tibetan Buddhism comes to Scotland in the 60s. There's a monastery set up in Scotland by a man called Choji, Akong Rinposhe. And so that's clearly where the name comes from. And that monastery sort of cedes other monasteries. There's one in London, sort of in, you know, decades later and so on. So Tibetan Buddhism is a thing. And you can see that Barry Letts has decided to include it here. But with his usual sort of ham fisted sort of thing, it's evil Buddhists, isn't it? All of these people who've come along to gain power and they chant around mandolas and someone spiders and do terrible things. And so there are elements of Buddhist ideas in this and particularly when we get to it, the regeneration is kind of conceived in Buddhist terms, but it is that sort of usual thing where he kind of fouls it up a bit and ends up insulting the people he's supposed to. Yeah, I mean, it probably doesn't help that. The only Buddhists we see who actually have dialogue and characters. The human ones are the evil ones. And the only good ones are actually a singular time lord. Spoiler alert. Or an idiot that suddenly goes to all RP. He doesn't actually. I did check that. No, he does. I sincerely hope not. But he doesn't thoroughgoingly lose that accent. So we're talking about Tommy. And one of the ways, one of the, yeah, and I, look, I enjoy seeing Tommy as a character, but I think, I love the way he plays it. very good. It's terribly problematic though. Like he seems to exist for 2 reasons in the plot. One is to be a puppy for the evil Buddhist to kick so that we know how evil they are. So they're horrible to Tommy and so we can tell that they're evil. And both Sarah Jane and Mikey Yates use their feminine wiles on him. Like they give him bits of jewellery in order to kind of placate him. Sly favours. And that, you know, that leads up to him purloining the blue crystal. And then the other reason for him to exist is to show how the power of a blue crystal on the mind. But there is just something unpleasant and easy about that cure. You know, he's someone with some kind of developmental disability but he's magically cured and he's off to read, played in the library. Yeah, I know, but watching it this time for the 1st time. It made me uncomfortable just with the treatment of disability that there's a hand wavy, easy fix to it. It just seemed a bit disrespectful. When I was a kid, I went to one of the few schools in my area that actually had mentally disabled students. And also before I started going to that school, um, my parents had a um, a Nissan vanette, and would act... What's to appear as Sarah Sutton? would actually participate in picking up some of these students from home and taking them to school. So that was something their parents didn't have to worry about. So I have always had. disabled people in my life. So I remember seeing that as good. And seeing that as something very positive. Okay. Well, they do the same with cancer in the final episode, don't they? The sex Machina of Doctor Who... Hand wave away. horrible radiation poisoning. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I especially like that that transformation, even though it is a magical transformation, it is not a magical cural for Tommy. Tommy is still not quite sure of what to do with what has happened to him and so seeks guidance on that. It doesn't, it doesn't change him as a person. In a way it allows the person who has been inside him to come forward. And you know what? Yes, it is problematic. But I think what's more problematic is that this is the show's 1st treatment of a character with a mental disability. Yeah. So we have no precedent to compare it to. And the thing is, it's uncomfortable because when we see people either patronising him or being mean to him, it kind of gets us thinking, what would we do in that situation? And it's kind of like, well, you know, we'd probably be like Sarah and Mike. It's like, okay, well, they're patronising him. still the nice thing to do? I quite like that it doesn't give us a neat answer. I agree. And I liked that you could see the discomfiture, especially in this slack of performance of sympathy, but finding it just as uncomfortable as she is with Tommy, as she was with Bilal and Alpha Centauri, not knowing how to deal with the unfamiliar, and it's actually her own vulnerability and weakness, as a person, not being completely integrated as a person, knowing how just to be herself, with someone who is different or other. What I did like is watching it again is that I thought that Tommy's transformation is simply analogous to the theme of Buddhist transformation in this. Well, Choji is not surprised by it, and I guess he's got the idea of no self. You know, that your person is in a sort of fixed point that the things around us change, but we ourselves change that human beings are a process. And he says, you know, when everything is new, then nothing is a surprise, because impermanence is an important aspect of Buddhist teaching. So there's that sort of thread, but in the meantime, the doctor and the brigadier are off, and I think pairing them together when we don't have Katie is a great idea for the final story. They've gone to a lovely music hall, which is very cheaply realised with a corner of the set, 6 chairs. With several of the people who later turn up in the monastery. Yeah, so the women are just sitting there. And they invite Cyril Sharp's home for some experimentation followed by death. Usual nice night's entertainment. And so hairdressing. That's such a funny... Did you know it's a throwaway line? That's actually one of John Levine's. So he comes in... So, Doctor, you've gone in for a bit of hairdressing. And then he apologises because the brigade is there. Like, I didn't bring there, could of girls, Benton, and he sort of has topologies. It is really funny, but he's very sweet. I like the idea, though, that the doctors actually nicked that equipment from boss because it's the same. It is the same headset, isn't it? It's Dr. Stevens headset. So it must have found it in the ruins or something. I mean, it ties in with the theme that his his greed will be his undoing. Yeah, the old knicker. right. Yeah, he's constantly stealing things, isn't he? It's a poacher. He was the poacher all the time. Finding a glowing sandwich, I believe. One knee up. England. So Ben, of course, brings in the blue crystal and the Leonard. Lovely cup of coffee. Yes. Yeah. He really is the Katie in this story. He does speak in a lovely cut of coffee, doesn't he? He and Mrs. Peps, yeah. Although apparently Mrs. Peps hated coffee. you know that? Well, also, it's debateable whether coffee had actually hit the British Isles by that. Oh, no, it's mentioned in Pete's diary. He goes to coffee houses, but she didn't like it. It doesn't mean she couldn't make it. She preferred to. I make good coffee and I can't. We'd have never called you Mrs. Peps. Well, you will start now. Not to my face. Not for that reason, though. Are we back to the car chase yet? Love the car chain. Yeah, so we may as well. That's episode 2 isn't it? Do you know it's 12 minutes long? Yes. It's so hard. an episode. Terry Walsh is in it. Hooray. He is too. Yes, he actually gets a line of dial. He does get a line of dialogue. He is buying a speedboat before Lupton pushes him into the water and drives off and punches him in the face. Oh, wait, no, he zaps him. He does zap him in. Yeah, and then he... Yeah, throws him into the water. And then there's Stuart fell getting run over by poetry in a hovercraft. Which was decided on the day. So they must have, that's just what Stuart Fell was wearing, I suppose. I think that that's actually a trenchant commentary on Pertweese attitude in general towards the oppressed masses that he'll just run over them in a hovercraft. It's also a reference to live and let die, where Roger Moore just pilots a speedboat over little bits of land to get away from his pursuers and then the owner of the hovercraft in conversation. The owner of the hovercraft is actually Mr. Hopkins, who arrives with the hovercraft and gets zapped by Lupton. hes the actual guy who owns it. And he doubles for per on the bits going up onto the bank and this that. So that's not Terry Welsh in a horrible wig. Michael Pinder in a horrible week. It's actually a bit sad that, you know, pertly wanted, always wanted this show to be so much bigger. He kind of gets there in sea devils. You can see how happy he is romping around. in his own Navy lark. With all that hardware and stuff. With all that, he loves a bit of hardware. But, and in this one too, he gets his Roger Moore car chase, but you can see there's always that, it was always, I think, frustrated by the eventual scope of Doctor Who. There's always a little bit, wanted to be a bit bigger than the screen would allow him. Did you hear about the accident during some of the gyroscope footage? No. John Durf. The bit where John Durth steals. That gyroscope. Yeah, the bit where Lupton steals the gyroscope. John Durth was approaching it, it fell over and disintegrated, and a piece of rotor cut his lapel on his jacket could have killed him. Wow. They had, um, they had a backup gyroscope and, but he was naturally a bit, um, a bit wary about getting on it. you know still carried on. But yeah, we could have lost John Durf, which was a Wallace helicopter. It was the wall. the same one used in, well, same type of one that was used in, you only live twice. And Captain Wallace pilots. This is one as well. This apparently is the only one that's ever allowed to fly the damn thing. It's the same whirly. It's Little Nelly. Little Nelly. Later to appear... It actually does break apart like that. Yeah, later next year, just the very next year to appear in the Rocky Horror picture show. Nell Campbell. I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, of course. Sounding much like a small whining helicopter. It is a very silly car chase, but this whole season has been Pertwee's greatest hits, and I think you can't finish the year without having a car chase, and it is much better than the car chase in invasion of the dinosaurs. Well, that just goes nowhere. That's boring. So we're on the planet of the spiders. Suddenly, it's realised beautifully with CSO. and as you describe it's a Gypsy caravan. The Rockies. Yeah, sort of maces, isn't it? I've been there And, uh, and buttes. Are they really pictures of the Rockies? I thought that they were like, they looked like they were made out of Jabalai, you know, and. Well, you see, you've got 3 levels. the actors, then you've got their Jabberite models, and then in the background, you've got the valleys in Colorado. Yeah, photographic flats, spot the difference between the three. Yeah, particularly the actors and the flat. I mean, it's kind of terrible, isn't it? Well, you know what? They're being ambitious. If you did it as a still shot, did a bit of Photoshop work on it. Composite, it was like a dark room and you had your eyes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It'd look fantastic. It looked fantastic. I was going to say possible. But at the same time, they quite wisely only decide to use it for a few establishing shots. There's a really lamentable shot where like they're pushing Sarah off a cliff, I think, and it's all serious. there's so much fringing on that one. I don't know what went wrong. CSO was always being asked to do slightly more than it could, but that's what's terrific about Doctor Who. It was always trying to push its own boundaries. not always successfully, but admirably. There are some much more beautiful things going on here than just the visual ticks or even a few desultory performances. There's the whole notion, indeed, the 1st use of the term regeneration. Is that not a Buddhist term in itself? Well, I mean, I don't know. Choji, when he talks about it, talks about, you know, the new man and the old man and that kind of thing, I kind of talked earlier on about change. Not a moment to say. Yes, my dear. Yeah, so that does happen a little bit later on, doesn't it? When we get back from Metabelis. Yeah, it's the end of episode five. Yeah. But, like, in the meantime, we're introduced to this sort of terrible village where everyone's kind of speaks with sort of Welsh or mum said accents. And this is something that I remember really well as a kid. Do you remember this, Richard? Like, just the doctor's unconscious. He has an exposition coma. Yay. And he explains, he says, get the machine. Go and get the wood planer out of it. It looks like a wood planer. Ridiculous. Like all of that's really memorable. I just can't bring myself to criticise it because it's so much part of what I remember Doctor Who being is a key. It's so lovely pertly gets... I mean, that's his last really good fight. He gets a bit of a fight in episode five, which isn't as good, but that fight in episode 3 is really good because they're very, very careful to use pertly for all the front-on shots and then only use Walsh for the background. Walsh has a new win. Walsh has a new win. Yeah, yeah. So before it was kind of like this sort of toilet brush that was based on his 1970s hair. And so you could always tell that it was Terry Welsh because it looked nothing like Pursuit. But they've given him a sort of bouffont. Yeah. slightly longer at the back. Yeah, so it actually looks like him. And like I just thought, 0 my god, he's got a new wig, but it actually turns out to be the case. Yes, it is, it is. It a new week. And, you know, that fight is so well done. And the doctor's trying to claw back to the Titus and gets clobbered and then, you know, he has his exposition coma. And, okay, yeah, Pert was great in it, but I think it's just another chance for Liz Slade and to shine because, you know, she's doing all that. Where's the key? Where's the key? And she goes out bravely again. She goes up the perfume. We've got the blue moonlight of Metabolus 3. And yeah, she gets caught and it's up to Mike Gambit to go out and get it. Yes, we've got Gareth Hunt before he was Mike Gambit. Good. Well, the lines are pretty awful. He's perfectly serviceable. I mean, you know, he has to have. heard that. He has to have a bit of Biffo with his brother, Tuar, played by Ralph Alice. He's pretty dreadful real, if anyone's going to get the Jimmy Award. Todd adores him and as Rod tends to say. Twinkles, doesn't he, in a twinkish way? And as Rod tends to say in these moments. When they're on screen, when they finish having their conversation. He says, now kiss. Yeah, I think all that stuff in the village with Perpee and Sarah is, you know, they're really good. The 3 younger metabolians are very good. Sabor is very good. Look, Jenny Laird is Nesca. There's a reason I named it water. It doesn't sound like any of her own family. It's still trucked in from Rado. All 3 all 3 boys have the west country accent. Their sister, Rager. speaks with RP. Like her mother, you know, it's kind of like in... They're from South Metabolist. Yeah, yeah, from the nice county. It's a nice village. It was totally destroyed because they were just... That was so unutterably obnoxious. It wasn't spiders at all. No, I hardly remember them at all. We haven't got onto the what's really great about this and apart from the allegories, which I really love, and I really love Campo and I really love the way it's set up. It feels so cold. It feels so dark and John Durth, that can't be his real name. It just suits them too well. Those scenes, every bit as potent as I remember them at that very early. The way he explains to Barnes why he's come and what he wants. It's really good, isn't it? It's Willie Lowman. Death of a salesman. Arthur Miller. I had a rotten life and every man in the audience would have said yeah, yeah, we know this story. And most people watching him go, you know what? Yeah. He's just a little man. Doing the same opportunity. Maybe I'd do the same thing. Yeah. I like that. and he's good. He's smart, like he outwits the spider. He gives as good as he gets, he conspires with her. She pretty quickly recognises him as an equal. Like he kind of has a tragic end because he's grown to despise the spiders just as he despises all of the people around him. And so he threatens them and they just kill him. Is he really one of the most sympathetic villains we've ever had in Doctor Who, though? No, he's repulsive. He looks awful. He's kind of, he's got... Yeah, sure. He's run down. I said sympathy, though. So, you know, with compassion for him. We, and this story is about Buddhist compassion. But really all we're seeing is someone who's battling with his ego and not being able to see that transcending his circumstances. There are 2 ways of doing it. You actually change yourself and your outlook in how you look at the world. Or you implode over the failures and losses that your own ego hasn't been able to achieve. So he's the ego-bound earth base. Yeah, yeah. human person in this one who just hasn't achieved transcendence. But are we supposed to then have sympathy for his fellow monastery goers? Because I don't. I've actually got more sympathy for John Durth's character for Lupton than I do for any of his other, so, you know, blokes in the... I don't care that he's going off and nobody likes the spiders. So I don't mind at all that he's trying to get power from the spiders. You know who I think we're meant to have sympathy for on the other side of that coin? It's Mikey Yates. Very much so. Because Lupton's cronies all sit around going, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? What are we going to do? You know, what am I going to do? I can't talk to the police. But Mike comes in and they knock him out because it needs to be postponed for an episode. Mike comes in and says, well, we try to get them back. And they're like what's in it for you? He's like, my friends are there too. I know it's dangerous, but I need to help them. And that is Mike giving up his ego. He's saying, you know, yes, we might die. We might be in danger. But I want the doctor and Sarah Jane back. And he actually says, the doctor and Sarah, I want them back and it's like, you've hardly known Sarah. And it just adds to that immediate chemistry they had earlier. And I think this is Richard Franklin's best performance. think it's his finest style. They actually had great chemistry in episode one as well. Like, you notice they're really... I love seeing the tractor, I remember. It's kind of like 2 young males. Sarah's forgiven him. No, very much so. She's got no reason not to forgive me really. wasn't. No, she was. She actually was affected by this. Yeah, yeah. It was threatening much so. But yeah, I think she was so much but she was. I think she realises he was misguided. But it's interesting. The 2 male leads, young male protagonists in this, both kind of it's the same role, really. It's Gareth Hunt and Mike Yates. And you're able to put them together, but then they would have been called Mike Hunt. So probably would never have happened. So maybe Gareth Hunt should get my... Jenny Led. Why wouldn't they be called Gareth Yates anyway? So you talk about the monastery guys who have spiders on their back, but of course the big, amazing scene that we really remember is Sarah with the spider on her back. And so they're all in the line. It's an action figure of that, don't you? It's wonderful, isn't it? They're in the larder, you know, like they're being stored Sabor and Sarah in that sort of web thing that sort of keeps them prisoner. Sarah gets taken away and negotiates with the queen's spider. I mean, Akia shelves. Yes, they are. And so the queen ends up on her back. And then at that time he's about the same time. The doctor gets to speak to the great one. And that scene with the great one. I mean, it's spectacular, isn't it? It really is sad. lovely set. It looks gorgeous. It's beautiful. We don't even see her too. No, we don't in that one when she when she turns about and you do and pertly really carries it off. And it's surprising because you don't actually get to see him to stretch himself really in this role, do you? You really don't. He has lovely quiet moments. But he looks honestly frightened. And I can tell you as a seven-year-old boy, I felt it as well. was convincing. The very 1st time, the doctor, and this is how good pertly is when he's rallied, shows fear. And he actually is terrified of the great one and she does cause him to turn around and he does pull the face and he's gurning and it's absolutely palpable. You've never felt fear before, doctor, have you? Xander always says that Pertuy is at his best when he's on the back for it when he's not in control of a scene. Yeah, he's going through a lot of pain in this one too. His back had been causing problems. Did you know who took over? Because it was usually Delgado or Katie that went into his dressing room and did his back massage. Terry Walsh took over. and it was Terry giving in, giving him the back rubs. And they were filming at Marchant. you know, when they were, again that moment it came again when once more Terry Walsh was giving their back massage and there was a knock on the door and it was actually a field marshal or some such. She said, my god, pertly so puffed her, because he did answer the door again in rollers and of course. And how you could wear a corset and be getting a... Let's be kind to Pertz, because it was actually quite common for men when filming anyway, too, of course, it's Pat McNee or them all throughout the new. Oh, God, yes. And couldn't you tell? Yeah, the Vivian Lee syndrome. It wasn't just Berley. I'm never going to be able to watch season 11 again. It's quite obvious. When he's standing around in the corridors, the line of his jacket is just so tight. Yeah, I did notice and I'm like, wow, he's still really thin here. No, it's of course. outrageous. Fantastic bus. Why didn't anyone finish it? Why didn't anyone suggest a corset for Colin in season 23? think that was one. Okay, right. Can't wait for that one. I told you're doing this. This is a really major point in Doctor Who. We've never seen it. We hadn't seen a proper regeneration like this before. Well, we haven't seen a regeneration, have we? And so at all, really. I mean, we don't get any explanation for what happened to Harnal. No, it's magical. Yeah, and they and they go out of their way because Troughton's being shifty and unreliable. not supposed to know it. It's the doctor for that 1st episode. It's only Polly that actually carries the audience so long. takes our hand for the small ones. But I'm with Ben. I'm not convinced it's the doctor. Would the doctor do this with the doctor? And then the doctor's sentenced to have his appearance change. Like they don't call it his regeneration. Which is why I never. Yeah, exactly. I don't see that as a Well, we know it's a regeneration because of Spearhead, but it's... No, it's called his he's going to change his appearance and begin his exile. And so here we get the explanation, which is when a Time Lord's body reaches crisis or when the actor playing him asks for too much money. Every cell in his body sort of changes and he becomes a completely new person and so Choji explains it and then helpfully demonstrates it for all of us at home as well. But before that we get, we get the scene with Sarah with the spider on her back, which Donna rips off shamelessly in turn left with the beetle on her back. But the doctor is being controlled by the great one just as much as Sarah is being controlled by the queen. And I think Canpo says, you know, not all spiders are on the back. And on one level, that's about the great one. Do you know what I mean? The great one isn't on the doctor's back, but she's controlling him every bit as much as Sarah was being controlled. But then it's about his greed and his thirst for knowledge. And that's the other thing as well. That the spider represents greed or thirst. She even uses the word thirst to describe a desire for the crystal. And her whole... very Sydney, isn't it, really? But that word 1st is, you know, like a technical term in Buddhism Tanha, which is the name of Martin Kloon's mother in snake dance is the word for thirst, and it's that craving, that desire, that clinging, which Buddhism talks about, and she exemplifies it. She's all about the ego. She's created a giant replica of her own brain. Like she's completely obsessed with herself. Like this podcast, like the Pertwee era. And it's that's what ends up destroying her. And it's a great scene, that final scene with Pertwee, begging the great one, not for his life, but for hers, you know. Yes. He's really terribly heroic. And I like that our last proper scene of Pertui. He's terribly small. He's much smaller than the thing he's trying to confront. He's not being obnoxious, you know, he's not trying to score points. He's not trying to trick anyone. He's just very straightforwardly trying to save the villain's life. And he's gone back there to see her after giving up any idea that he's going to use the crystal to solve the problem. He's gone back to let the problem solve itself. He's giving up the idea of agency, he's giving up the idea of control and he's just going to let things play out. It's very powerful for someone who, for a character who has always been so determined, not just to be a man of physical action, but to be a man always moving forward, not to wait and do nothing. And yeah, it's very, it's very affecting when he makes the final decision to go back and do it. And also when he acknowledges that he is responsible for this situation. And it's not spoken, but he's not just responsible for the great one hunting the crystalline, the spiders coming to earth. He's not just responsible for that. He's responsible for Professor Clegg's death. Very much. At the beginning. Yeah, I mean, it's easy to forget that. Yeah, I think the story should have played that up a little bit more too. There is a, you know, like he tries to sacrifice himself in episode 2 by looking at the crystal. You know, he risked his own life because he's responsible for Cyril Shapp's death. But it would have been nice, I think, that for this to be a kind of payment for that negligence as well. I guess it is an example of his thirst for knowledge causing actual harm to someone. Yes. Because it is identified as his thirst for knowledge that's the problem. It would have been nice, I think, to see it foregrounded a bit more, or that link made more explicit. And I mean, it does also throw back to earlier examples in the per era, such as, for instance, when he chucks the axonite in the particle accelerator, even though he's been repeatedly told not to. And when Windsor tries to stop him, Winces killed and the doctor actually makes everything worse because the Axons realise they're onto them and they need to advance their plans. And that's one of the other scenes where the 3rd doctor is truly scared. You know, he stumbles over his words, which he never does. It just comes back to something, I know Nathan, you and I have been discussing since season 8. does Pertwe's character evolve. What do you think? No, I think he does. I really do. And I think it starts in season eight, but it really sort of fully kicks in in season 9 and he's obnoxious in season 7 repeatedly even in as late as the demons in season eight. He's being unnecessarily unpleasant to people and getting their backs up and preventing them from helping him. And he does mellow and by season 11. You know, there's a smile. you know, he does a little bit of comedy, which is quite nice. He's still very contained and very vertical and very kind of stiff. And I don't think he's as compelling to watch as, perhaps spoiler alert, his successor is. But, But he is he is quite likeable and I don't think I was wrong as a 10 year old to think he was a pretty good doctor, you know, in the bits of season 11 that I actually saw. It couldn't be more. Is it Michael? I couldn't say more than that. I loved him as a boy and I came to, you know, sway from that opinion, and I think there are certainly stories in the middle, the middle 8 of his tenure where he doesn't quite achieve that, but 1st and lasts. Maybe I'm one of the few I really like season 7 and even with some of the pitfalls. I really love season 11. And it's the girls that carry it along. I think Pertwee has come to realise again that he is part of an ensemble cast and that he's only at his best when he's kind of playing 2nd fiddle to the woman who's actually propelling it along which is a very avengers scenario and part of the precept of what the Pertwee era was going to be about, in fact, borrowing from those styles of performance. The female guest cast of this season are even more varied than the ones we saw last season. So we have a lady of a castle and a serving wench. We have the mother of a new community. And even though she's talking about world peace and everything, She actually seems to be quite a nasty piece of work. I think it does fall down a bit in depth to the Daleks. Or the Queen of the Spiders and Mikey Yates. You know, we get Queen Valera. You know, it's debateable how well that character works, but the whole script is a mess. I think Nina Thomas. Nina Thomas does an excellent job with some car material. how much she looks like Cody Manning in that story. I think there might be something more going on I think she looks like a father. I mean, she looks like her father and her mother. Apparently, though, something I forgot to mention... A weird, a weird genetic quirk. Apparently, this is according to John Pertie's autobiography. I am the doctor. forgot to mention this. John Pert, we said, you know, in all my career, I've always been a very welcoming actor, very often with Katie, Katie might say to me oh, John, I think maybe you should try this with that line and I'd be very glad to receive that. That how you got to work as an actor. He said, the one actor that I once said to, oh, you might consider trying this. And they had a very bad reaction with Nina Thomas. She apparently... So you might try this with a lisp, do you? No one on this show talks like that. He says I don't know what it was, but, you know, given that he'd been working on Doctor Who so long, It wouldn't surprise me if it was something like, oh, if you stand like that, you know, you don't get a very good profile. Apparently she didn't react very well. I thought she gave a very good performance. Oh, she's terrific. I wonder what that, wonder what that line was. And Rager, it's a very, she's a very small part. She's one of the daughters of King Lear. Reagan. Yeah, yeah. Gonorrhoeal. She's the sister of Tua and Arak. She's got a very small part, but I think she does very well in it. And of course, you have the, all the, all the spiders are female voices. They look so good. And isn't it clever that they're women and now you've got all of that misogyny and the fear of female sexuality thrown into that as well. You know, the original spider, not Boris. I think it was called Max. Boris is the one that walks. But the Max Spider was so scary, Barry, let's play. We can't have that on television. We won't be able to get it through it. But I think these ones are beautiful and they really have it, the way they would twitch along. Yeah, is lovely when you were allowed. The queen spider is like the rod one. She has a rod. And Q Mike Yates, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And she's great. She's got articulated legs. Yeah, she's the great one as well. It's the same... The others are kind of wobbling, kind of wobbling puppets. I love that they have little slippery dips. They get around their little city catacombs on these gorgeous little things. I thought they just called one of those the guards over and just said, come over here and then they jumped on his back and they would go. They've got cat runs or something. Yeah, that's what I mean. Did you know that little slippy dips everywhere? At the beginning of episode four? After the doctor's been knocked out in the queen spiders saying you know, we must pretend to the city. There is there is a metabolum. There is a metabolian human behind her played by Ian Scones, and you can see his trouser leg moving because he's got his hand in his pocket. He's operating her strings. Oh, that's what he told them. He's operating for strings. His trousers are moving at about the knee. If you check it out, he said, hello. Actually, imagine England background performance are rather interesting because when the doctor arrives and kneels to speak to the most noble queen, there's a woman behind him, who sort of checks him out. Oh, who's this new chat? She's fabulous. No one knows her name. pert in that too. Because, you know, again, it's him not being obnoxious and, you know, not being oppositional. He kind of goes, oh, all right, you know, okay, I'll kneel and he nails and he's got a smile on his face. And he does the whole noble queen thing while smirking. I really like it. You know, like it's a sort of warm and lighthearted bit of performance. Before we move on to the ending, Todd has another question. Nathan, your favourite writer, Robert Sloman, is back. Has he achieved gold? Or is it fool's gold? No. Absolutely he has. He's always been good. It's other people mucking it up. No, I think his basic story premises. And we've seen how much in the last 2 seasons, those stories are getting mucked around by other people. We're getting really back up to the 80s. present a story. Look what happened to Mac Hulk. That story is not very much of what he originally submitted. I think Sloman's ideas are terrific. But remember that Soman and Let's work very closely together in order to do these season finales and let's co-writes. I think the demons is not good. I think Time Monster is terrible. Well, again, when I say not good, it's per twi not good, which means that I've got a lot of affection for it and that it's entertaining. And as we've already explored, still not as bad as Monster Palatin. No. And so, but those, like, those 2 things are not very good. I think Green Death is very good and very much more focussed, you know, and just a better story. And I think Planet of the Spiders is a bit of a giant mess really. But it doesn't have quite the terrible pacing and delaying tactics and stuff that we got in something like the demons all the time on the street. It's not as incompetent, I think, as the time monster, but I still don't think it's great. I quite like the 1st episode is essentially the adventures of Sarah Jane Smith. Yeah, I approve of that. You know, she doesn't talk to the doctor until like halfway through episode two. Yeah, you know, I think that's quite well done. For me, it is a toss up between this or the Green Death being his best one. But I think I do lean slightly more towards this. Probably just because of the regeneration. Both of the stories lead to a departure and they are structured to lead to that departure, but I find this a lot more effective because it's a lot more thematic. It's not so much leading to the departure, as it's leading to the reason for the departure. You know, when we get much, much later, David Tennant, in the end of time screaming, I could have done so much more, so much more. You know, that's standard. That, I mean, that subtext here, because the reason that the doctor needs to talk to his old mentor is because he knows what he has to do, but he doesn't want to do it. But it's like if he tells me I need to go face my fear, then I need to go face my fear, but otherwise I'm, you know, I am scared. I'm scared of dying, which is a perfectly reasonable thing to be scared of. And he's not accustomed to feeling fear because he's never been in a situation this dire before, but as he says at the end, it was more important to face my fear than to go on living. And earlier on in the season, we have had that line of, I'll do that when the only alternative to living is dying. And he takes the alternative in this case. It's that final terrible line. It is a short... That final scene where he stumbles out of the TARDIS and falls to the ground and stuff and we get the tear Sarah Jane thing, which was actually rehearsed in Monster Pelleton. I can actually get some mentioned there. Well, there's life, there's hope before, I think, as well. Yeah. And to see the doctor, like he doesn't get to go out on a witty line or stay warm. Stay warm. Stop. making me giddy. You know, like he, he, his eyes are virtually closed, you know like it's not, you know, a big showboating per week performance at the very end. is very small and the scene is mostly Choji or Campo or both or neither. And Sarah and the brigadier. So, yeah, like it is a fairly downbeat ending, isn't it? It is, but at the same time, it's really, really lovely. And that, of course, one of the big criticisms or praises that people lay at Poey's feat is that he's so paternal and patrician. And so, you know, he's dead, but his final thoughts are, don't be upset, Sarah. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. Sorry I've just started crying. Oh. Well, they're all dead now. Yeah, everyone. All gone. Except Tom. He's still with us. I get upset when companions leave, but I don't get upset when the doctor changes. No, I don't either. isn't that interesting? I get upset with both. Yeah. Yeah. The virtue one is so, like, it is just that rollback and mix. It's not, you know, standing in the centre of the TARDIS with golden glowy stuff pouring out of you and setting... It is just literally just like a 2nd and they've pertweed, baker's hair for that set, you know, so and rather than like get him in the same position, they gave him a duplicate costume and just filmed him on another part of the set. Oh, really? And you can tell because the floor changed. Oh, look at it. I think I've seen that being shot where the, the, like the director is, does footage of that exists? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. could be wrong. Well, they were filming robot at the same time. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's weirdly. It's so strange because a robot, of course, was then filmed as part of the same production block. But Pertwee's regeneration was recorded in the 1st of 3 studio blocks. It wasn't the last scene he recorded. Probably a good idea, isn't it? Yeah, but I just think, you know, given how proud he was of the role, imagine how hard that was for him to then go back for another 3 weeks of work 4 weeks ago. He's a professional. I know he's a professional. I don't think he's seeing it. Look, he did also say he turned down several major roles because he was still in Doctor Who. Well, you know, he hosted who done it. which is terrific and it's on YouTube. It's actually finally out on DVD. That might be one of my picks. Yeah, but I just think he's amazing in that sense. But also, Liz Slaton, between, I think, Studio Block 2 and Studio Block 3 recorded the exterior stuff for a robot. She was working on both productions at the same time, but they were very clever. They restricted Nick to the 1st block. So he wouldn't be. So it was just, sorry, Liz, you're going to have to work on both. And she said, oh, no, it's fine. You know, it means she gets like 7 frocks into stories. She doesn't work with Tom in that block, which I don't believe so no. Something I forgot to mention earlier. That stripy outfit that Sarah wears, the really iconic one. My friend Daniel has tracked down a rep... sorry, not a replica. It's not the one she wore, but it's the one that was available at the same time. So I will ask him to give us a picture of that. him wearing it. No, it's too precious because he's a costume. He's a costume historian. He's a costume and clothing historian. Yeah. He's a curator of these things. Okay, he's got one of those. It wasn't Bieber, but it was up there. It was another line that was in competition with Bieber. So, again, a lot of Katie's stuff was actually off the peg, Beaver stuff, and this was this top is particularly memorable because it's got the big spider on it. Yeah, it's just a lovely piece of iconic seratom. That and the Andy Paddy pyjamas for me is Sarah Jane Smith. Terrific. You know, we've gone all maudlin. And sort of gray and dusk is and cool as the story is. It's a lovely story. I would, you're only going to watch one of this season. It would be this one. Time Warrior. Oh yeah, both. Yeah. If you're only going to watch one. Should be the time, Warrior. Death to the Daleks and Planet of the Spiders. All at once. can be done. If we want to end not on a maudlin note, but an honour what the actual hell note, let's do that. Okay, so we're moving into the Jenny Laird award now and we have a bit of a quandary. Do we give it to the lady herself? Well, it's individual choice, isn't it? Richard, would you like to go first? Well, I like to start first. It's generally like as it's a puzzling creative choice. And again, I would like to give it to the loading question, but she's just not good enough. So, um, it actually goes to the entire notion of rebooting and remaking because it's not a revisitation of the monster of Peladon. I just see no reason why they did that story. I would have been very happy with a couple of extra episodes for time, time, um, Warrior, Time Monster Warrior. should have been you know, or the invasion of the potato head people. Should have been 6 episodes because it would have had lots of lovely elongated scenes with the Duke of Wessex and Professor Rubish is terrific and more of the scientists. I would have been very happy with a lot more of the cutting and pasting and touing and throwing in that. And we could have even had a little bit more of, not spiders but... Oh, I don't know. Bring it up to 10 episodes. We could have gone to Floran. We got it for just an episode of Liz, Liz in that, but he's baking. Yeah, just, you know, not sinking in the water. That's the one in a bath of Epsom salts. Yeah. That's it. Six episodes I can do without. Yeah, it is terrible. I think my Jenny Led Award has to go to the dinosaurs, but not for the reason you might think. Last season we saw the 1st time the Doctor Who filmed things out of order in order to accommodate Patrick Trouton's schedule. I'm sure someone must have said to Barry, look, if you give us another month, we can give you the stop motion dinosaurs you want. Invasion of the dinosaurs was up first. It could only have benefitted from more pre-production. Something like death to the Daleks, where they already had the Dalek props, you know, they were filming on location and a quarry that could have been brought forward. was a tricky shoot, though. Monster of Peladin had so much already in stock. That could have been done. That should have been the 1st one, yeah. So yeah, I don't understand why I know Barry has often said, oh, I wish the dinosaurs have been better. Well, yeah, I don't understand why they weren't either. Barry, really? I don't. I want give it to Jenny. I feel bad. I've been hanging out for 11 seasons. Jenny gets my Jenny Laird award, bless her. Pics of the month, gentlemen. Well, we mentioned Doctor Who podcast in our last episode. It's called Trust Your Doctor. And in it, 2 young men who, I think, live in California, are watching their way through Doctor Who. They're taking a flight through entirety, much as we have been. They're up to 66 episodes, I think. Their most recent episode is about the time monster, so they do one story per episode, which is a crazy way of going. No, you don't understand why. Never considered doing that. And they hated the massacre. Well, why would you bother listening? They're lovely. And so I think by now, and we don't know what their production schedule is exactly, but Brendan and I will have guested on an episode of theirs, in which we discuss, we'll discuss, we'll have discussed. We'll have been going to have discussed last of the Gadarene by Mark Gators. So stick it in your podcast. You're not allowed to listen to that instead of flight through entirety, obviously, but you may supplement your phonetic devotion to flight through entirety with listening to Kian and Dylan on Trust Your Doctor and their website is at decorativevegetable com. Oh, that's a line, isn't it? I think my pick. And this is going to be a slightly surprising one. But my pick is for the 1990s... John Pertley, BBC radio stories. Really? Paradise of Death and the Ghost of En Space. You know what? They're both seriously flawed, but it's John Pertwee. Elizabeth Slayton, Nick Courtney, with Barry Letts writing, Peter Miles turns up, Stephen Thorne turns up. You've got Jeremy Fitzolliver, who's a new character created just for them. As I say, they are they are quite flawed, but they are still enjoyable. And you know what? Without them, I don't think we would have had big finish. And also, the people who worked on them, included Dirk Maggs, who went on to make the death of Superman as a radio play and the Dirk Gently radio series as well as the tertiary quadrinary and quintessential phases of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I quite like them too. Yeah. And so these 2 adventures, you will be able to find them on iTunes they are on there. We will include a link on the website. They're not the best thing, but they're the last... They're the last time John Pertley played the doctor before he passed away. And, you know what, he's still bloody great in them. Liz is great, and Nicholas Courtney is given the wonderful line of of course, I'm sure, since when did I paint my toenails pink. Brendan's so nice, isn't he, Richard? You know, he says flawed where I'd be saying, you know... Tire, disastrous, plangently awful, you know. Exorable. You're lovely. Never change, Wendy. Do I have a go? kick of the week. Well, I sort of haven't thrown in a few weeks, don't they? I've been watching, like, I like to watch some things that are around at the same time when we're watching Doctor Who so you get a flavour of what people are actually viewing. And you can really get into their mindset and just have mad the entire world was. I've been watching Jason King starring our very own Peter Wingard whom we own. It's got an impressive moustache, doesn't it? Most impressive moustache that gets more and more baroque as the series goes on. I'm going to have a look at that. It, Laurie Johnson's music from the Avengers. It's got our very own Dennis Spooner, a script editor. It funny? It's actually... Oh, look, okay, the 1st time I saw it in 2005 when this came out, I thought, oh, God, this is terrible and I put it away. watched it again. But now I'm watching it, I'm being slightly older, and yes, it is but it's so dour, and it's a really saturnine kind of humour. It's much darker. It's almost like a Weimar production. But he's very pert wheat. And the character or the received character is very much the same sort of character the doctor's playing. It's sort of really conscious and drinking cloud. not just the look, it's just the way that he removes himself ever so slightly from what's going on around him and just observes and then we'll make a comment and pertly has that very much, you know, that sang foi. that very much kind of, as I said, you were saying, the romantic lead of older times. Yeah, it's really worth watching. It is very funny, but don't expect birdie laughs. It's kind of a chortle at the back of your throat. And it's so over the top. So yeah. Also, a lot of Doctor Who girls turn up in it, so worth looking at. Well, that, uh, that is all time we have. We are about to head off. We will be back in two weeks with a retrospective looking at the whole of the Pertwi era, which is why we didn't discuss much at the end there about what we think the impact is of Pertwi, because all 4 of us, we'll be back in a fortnight to discuss that. And then. This will be called the Blinovich. You were getting a bit upset too. reference to you, we was. We had to move on. But, you know, with all 4 of us in the room, I'm sure there'll be some kind of Blunovician time bubbly effect if we voiced Todd Richard, that feeling. No, that is the rule. And a very exciting announcement now. First of all, from June 14th, when that retrospective episode goes out, we will actually be moving to publishing episodes weekly. Who's ever thought of that? Not only that, but we've had the entirely original idea that isn't related to trust your doctor at all. We're actually going to be covering just one story per week. We did actually discuss this before though, didn't we? Oh, don't say that. I want to trust your doctor people to get really cross at us for sealing in our idea. That was synced in from further in the past, yeah. Yes, it's something we've been thinking about doing for a few months since we moved to fortnightly. So yeah, we'll be in your podcast speed weekly talking about individual stories each week. We also have another project on the horizon, which I should hopefully materialise in June or July, more details on that later. And gentlemen, do you know what it was a few days ago on the 26th of May. Um. I want to say... I want to say Katie Manning's 45th birthday. Uh, well, it may have been Katie Manning's 46th birthday, but the 26th of May, 2014 was when we released episode 0, a little queer. Gentlemen. Happy 1st anniversary. All right. And just for that, as we can see here, I've made you some lovely alien quarry samples. The recipe for which will be on the website. hurrah. So until we see you again in 2 weeks, don't forget to check out our website, flight through entirety.com, you can also find us on Facebook by searching for flight through entirety, on Twitter, by looking for FTE podcast, and on iTunes for searching for flight through entirety as well. Two more reviews and we actually get a rating. So, if you want to review us. I'm not being I'm being... Yeah, reviewers. For God's sake, say something lovely. Say something nice. Nice. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. That is ache. You've been listening to Flat your entirety, Aiken Bottomley Brennan Downs, and Richard Stone. This episode, Evil Buddhists, is recorded on Sunday, May the 3rd the next episode will be released on June 14th. The old self must die, and the new family will discover their inexpressible dream, but the ministry of Paladin never existed. A dandy and a clown. Is that what I've become?