How Would You Address a God?

[00:30]

Welcome back to Flightthrough Entirety covering season three of Doctor Who, and we are the only Doctor Who podcasts who are actually trying to start a jumble sale instead of fighting the Daleks.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Nathan.

I'm Richard.

And you've come to an episode entirely devoted to Doctor Who's 2nd longest individual story.

The Daleks master plan.

So can we start having a fight about that before we fight about whether Katarine as a companion?

No, we can't.

Okay, sorry.

Well, at 1st off, start, but it was never called the Dalek Master Plan, and it was never really seen as a full story except by the BBC.

The viewers saw it as just an episodic thing that happened to have daleks in it week by week.

Yeah, it's not...

We didn't know, it saw keys of barrenness.

And so, you know, for us.

And this is, you know, something that people say all the time, isn't it?

that watching it as a series of movies, you know, like it's neatly packaged for you by BBC DVD or whatever.

[01:33]

It comes in.

Well, that'd be lovely.

It came in a box with Dalek masterplan on the side and had all the episodes.

But, you know, like we think of it as, and it's Dalek's master plan, according to the BBC website, I think, trying to train myself all the time.

Daleks apostrophe, masterplan.

Master plan being 2 words.

I think that we should call it the Daleks apostrophe masterplan.

Anyway.

I just love how when we get towards the end of Pertwee, and they decided, let's do another 12 part dialect story, but let's do it at 6 parters, and let's involve Roger Delgado, that essentially that becomes the master's darling plan.

Yes.

We'll make that joke again in a couple of years.

But so we never know when it's going to end.

We don't know that it's a 12 part or anything like that.

And, you know, Sandov has this sort of giant thing where he thinks it's, you know, 4 stories, some of which are inside other stories and stuff like that.

But I just kind of like the idea that this is just taking it a slightly different way.

And I kind of think it's a little bit like the way that Doctor Who eventually settles down in when Russell T. Davis brings it back.

[02:36]

So you've got this kind of a bunch of stuff that happens over 12, 13 episodes with a framing story, do you know what I mean?

and common things.

And it is something that we've tried in Keys of Marinus and the Chase.

And in fact, we called bits of this, the chase part 2, or I think, when I did...

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This should really be called the Kevin Stoney story.

Stony Saga because what would it have been without him?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And we haven't even mentioned casual racism yet.

Well, we will.

We will.

Yeah, the old story movie.

What are we up to now?

This is this is, though, a story that was absolutely mired in production drama.

It's the last story which Ray Cusick worked on because he by the end of it, he was very unhappy with the way he was being treated with the way the design department were being treated.

It was in great.

[03:37]

Oh, yeah, his designs are beautiful.

It's a wonderful swan song for him on Doctor Who.

I mean, he did so much else afterwards, as opposed to some other people from this era, sadly.

The story was commissioned by Verity Lambert, who sort of went, oh, Daleks are so popular.

Let's have 3 months of Daleks.

And then sort of a lot of the pre-production work was done by Verity Lambert.

It was Douglas Campfield was chosen as the director, of course, on the strength of the Crusade.

Ray Cusick was Chosman's designer.

So in that way, Verity, I think Verity made those choices.

So she was setting it up to be as easy a production as it could be.

But as Donald Tosh has put it in interviews, it was this giant rock in the middle of the road.

And it just kind of becomes emblematic of the sort of, okay, roll up your sleeves, get on with an attitude of verity land, but compared to John Wiles completely wanting to cut and change to his own vision, which you can understand a new producer wanting to do.

[04:37]

So it was a story that the production team didn't want to do for a start.

And that apparently Terry Nation barely wrote.

This is like the stories of his, um, you know, season one of Blake 7 where, you know, by about episode 10, he's writing in sort of 3 or 4 lines, you know, on the back of a napkin and handing them to Chris Boucher to turn into an episode.

And clearly, you know, there's like about 4 episodes towards the end, like maybe, but you could just excise from the narrative, couldn't you?

And they don't make any difference and we're off to the oval and we're off to, you know, Hollywood for no particular reason.

And in fact, for a very good reason, we'll get back to that.

But so clearly, Terry Nation sort of underwrites things and is good with sort of guns and big concepts and stuff, but does actually need someone to turn it into a TV show.

Yeah, I mean, the common consensus.

You know, it ranges from Dennis Spooner, um, having written, written literally half with Terry Nation.

[05:41]

So it's half to a spoon, a half traination, to the other end of the spectrum, which is Donald Tosh saying, he got an envelope through his letterbox. was about 12 pages long and that was the 12 episodes.

I think the consensus in the middle is Terry Nation did write about 6 episodes. or 6 episodes worth of material, which was then extended by Dennis Spooner.

Because all of the, yeah, but there's stuff that really reads, like, Terry Nation and stuff that really reads, like, Dennis Spooner.

You know what I mean?

So like those...

It's not a happy marriage.

You don't think so?

I actually think you're getting really lovely sparkly dialogue here. rolled and lies in in the 1st episode and they're doing that office banter around the desks.

It's really what, when Blake 7 was at its best because it's cutting and pithy and antagonistic and...

That was all Chris Boucher.

I don't think that was Terry Nation.

Oh, no, you reckon?

Oh, maybe that was Spooner.

Because when you look at Spooner's other shows, can I just segue here to my one of my all-time favourites, the champions?

Maybe a link at the end.

Champignon.

Yeah, which is...

[06:41]

It sounds like a great neighbor's show.

Yeah, actually, we used to call it that as well. which is, you know, Alexandra Bastedo and William... and Stuart Damon as three.

Kind of the Avengers meets a lovely, gentle, Agatha Christie kind of...

With a bit of X-Men.

Yeah, it was actually quite X-Men.

They were mutants in a way. anyway, set in the late 60s.

No, it's a really beautiful theme.

It's really good to show you an episode after we're done.

But Spooner's dialogue is really light and charming in that.

I mean, his other shows, I mean, he's writing for the Avengers, I think, young Brendan might actually agree that the Avengers isn't a bad thing.

No, I totally agree.

It has some lovely moments.

And we get later on, of course, in the story, we get Gene Marsh's M appeal and apotheosis, who we all assume watching the listening to this again that she was going to be the new companion.

There's a lot to say.

Can we talk about companions?

All right.

Look, let's let's start with this.

Let's start.

Let's start at the beginning because it's a very good place to start. you.

Okay, uh, 1st episode.

[07:44]

The nightmare begins.

We do pick up from the end of, oh, yes, it does indeed.

At that point, I would feel...

Yeah, at that point, not drinking.

Yeah, we need more shame to all of you at home.

We have, we have, the nightmare begins, picks up from the end of, uh, the mythmakers, where we left last week.

Vicki has gone and has been replaced at the last moment by a character called Casherina, who played by.

Patrick Hill.

Stephen is very sick with blood poisoning because he's been stabbed.

He actually doesn't know that Vicky's not there.

Yeah, he thinks Katerina is Vicky while he's delirious, which is very sad.

It's kind of like the rest of the viewing audience to sure that for half an episode, suddenly we're all meant to know who Katerina is and she's totally cool and welcome in the massage.

We've never seen that.

Shiruji.

Suddenly everyone knew her all along.

She's Mel's from let's kill Hitler.

Yeah, we've all known this handmaiden for the last 3 episodes, but in fact, she's only appeared in 10 minutes.

[08:48]

She's on Mogadon.

Like, she is so...

Like, her delight is slow.

She's just, but she's old world.

Look, you go anywhere on your holiday where they're very bucolic places, especially back in the 60s.

People who have agrarian lives, who lived for simpler times, would have spoken a lot more slowly and thought...

Except that no one else in that story too. like that.

She's the only one who talks like that.

Everyone else in the myth makers is sort of hilarious and bantry and sort of thing.

And then she comes in and she's...

She's a lower class character.

She would not be as well educated as Cassandra.

Oh, no, she's just.

Can I just say I really like this character?

when she 1st came in.

I like her.

I like that she sees the because, you know, anything tardacy for me is terribly exciting.

Any new view of what the TARDIS is.

She sees it as a temple and a gateway to other dimensions.

She's the only one citing all just Huxley and Jim Morrison from the doors in some of her dialogue.

She actually is referencing, okay.

But in the 60s when Huxley and Jim Morrison were talking about the same kind of thing, when the duors of perception are open, we see onto eternity.

[09:57]

And there's a lot of Lewis Carroll in that as well.

I see her as the Alice character, as the Lewis Carroll's Alice character, dropped down the rabbit hole in something entirely new.

And I love, just as I love the Jamie character, spoiler alert coming up in later seasons.

Someone taken, for goodness sake, he says in desperation.

This is a show about time and space.

Why does everyone have to be contemporary?

That's kind of what annoyed me about the Vicky character?

Much as I love Maureen O'Brien.

Because he was so contemporary.

I'm going to spend this season pining for a contemporary human being on the TARDIS and Dodo really doesn't care.

Well, I was just going to say, you are catered.

No, I really not.

But she, I mean, the character is, it's just stupid, I think.

She's slow talking.

She's not rising.

Like, really, yeah.

Spoiler alert, she gets flushed out an airlock quite soon.

And thank goodness.

The most horrific moment in the history, this program up until the present time, you should mention that.

[10:59]

Yeah, yeah.

The thing is, those first... those 1st 4 episodes.

And this is the thing I really like about Katerina is straight away from the beginning, we have a very uncomfortable opening.

The safety, what little safety we had, because in a Barbara leaving was the beginning of the safe family unit falling apart.

And now Vicki has gone very suddenly and the doctor's distracted by that, Stephen's dying.

Doctor's left with Katerina, who does have a certain amount of intelligence, she tries to understand what's going on around it, but of course the doctor can't talk to her, so has to leave her alone, and that discomfort comes to a head when she is killed.

And not just kill, when she sacrifices herself because even the doctor says at that point, she couldn't understand, but no, she understood.

She understood that she would die.

She understood that was the control for the dog because she'd been shown and she understood if I press this, he will die as well.

She sacrifices herself knowingly.

She's already passed on.

Yeah, that's so lovely.

But she sees this is the waiting area.

[12:01]

Hades.

It's not the higher level.

I think they she says limbo, doesn't she?

Yeah, that's why I think it's so interesting.

We got a whole other perspective in what the TARDIS is.

Who's not to say she's right?

Who's not to say passing through the portals of the Tardis takes us into a dimension that is more like being passed on?

I love it when they throw us new ideas of what the tide is.

But let's talk about what's entertaining on television for a little while.

I just can't imagine.

Like when they bring her in, they already know she's going.

I've heard that she's shot.

She'll leave her death scene even before she appears.

That's true because it was pre-filmed.

So the actor, she's only like, she's only in it for 4 episodes.

No, that puts a whole other complexion on it.

Because that even more poignant?

Just someone slow talking who can barely understand what's going on.

Do you know what I mean?

Like who is clearly on huge doses of Mogadon, you know, throughout the production.

Well, metaphorically.

How would you address a god?

Well, I just wouldn't put that character in the show.

[13:03]

I just put that character in the show because I just think she would be boring.

And I guess... tolerate her for 4 episodes, but she's replaced by someone in a sort of slinky cat suit with a big gun.

And you've got to confess that that is a pretty significant improvement.

It must be my my 2nd favourite thing. 1st favourite thing.

So yeah, Gene Marsh, can you imagine?

Yeah, I know who March.

Sarah Kingdom is unquestionably a more interesting character and a more complex and narratively better character.

Look what she does just in the space of this story, going from supreme ultra Vixenex space aviatrix, extraordinary cold-hearted killer to bestie of Billy.

Yeah, yeah, trying to save...

Okay, quick succession.

So, I think we've put forward our defences or detractions of Catarina.

So, okay.

[14:03]

I just want a yes or no in terms of this.

Right, gentlemen, catarina companion.

Yes, sir.

Delightful, absolutely.

No.

Yes, from me?

It's less time than Sarah Kingdom and Sarah Kingdom is not meant to be a computer.

Not what she does.

Look at the love she brings to the cast and what she does to...

We wouldn't have a Doctor Who show if she hadn't chucked herself out the door.

So next the doctor would be dead.

Next you have to stop making it.

Next question.

Next question on the same line.

Sarah Kingdom. companion or not?

Yes.

Okay.

So, I used for that because she's so modern.

She is fabulous.

What about Brett violently, modern.

Well, isn't that interesting?

Everyone talks about this is the show that premiere is...

And how hot is Nick Courtney?

He's very beautiful.

As this.

He's a matinee idol.

I'm a novello of the 60s.

He's that lovely 1920s matinee idol when the term was coined.

He's actually got pretty much as much screen time as Katerina, and yet he gets a lot more attention in this as the scene as the introductory thing.

[15:07]

And he's really good.

I mean he's fantastic.

Fantastic.

But he's it's a very small part of them of the...

How many Dizzy-Doies?

Like in 3 episodes.

No, he's in he's in the 1st 4 episodes because he's killed at the end of episode four.

Whereas Katerina is killed partway through episode four.

Yeah, so he gets about the same screen time as Cate, you know.

But he has a great deal of power on the screen.

He's the 1st man in the history of Bill's time, if not talk to whoever to tell the doctor to shut up.

Yeah, we can pull a gun. listeners have probably said to this podcast.

Sorry, I cut you off.

Well, no, no, no.

He comes in with a gun.

He really takes control and this is where...

Yeah, he does, doesn't he?

Yeah, this is another thing about this story.

Guns win over brain.

Yeah, well, it's terry.

Well, the thing is, the doctor does get the best over Brett, in that situation, he traps him in a chair.

No, shut up.

Yeah, well yeah.

First of all, you know, you know, at the beginning of the scene, Brett Pynes says to the doctor, shut up.

[16:09]

And the doctor does shut up while Brett talks and then finally turns around and says, nails it.

Actually, we've got to stop the Dalek, so you shut up.

And of course, when Brett does take control of the TARDIS, it's a bit like that quotation that Stephen Moffat's been putting out there recently, which is, you know, the doctor doesn't have superpowers.

He has a screwdriver.

The doctor doesn't have...

Wasn't this a group?

There's so many things to love about the heart or era.

No screwdriver.

Yeah.

The doctor doesn't have a fast car.

He has a box which has written on the front.

Please call me for help.

So, you know, the doctor, when faced by a gun, uses a magnetic chair.

And unlike in the Romans, he doesn't hit someone overhead with it.

And it is magnetic, isn't it?

It's a magic magnet.

And it lands in the right place.

So I still have this feeling that this is the kind of story that he's completely unsuited to.

And, and...

The Doctor Who doctor is unsuited to because World story where the guns, where it's all about guns.

[17:12]

And it's a sort of, you know, Terry Nation.

And this will come up in Blake 7 as well.

Terry Nation constantly tries to aim at sort of tough and gritty and stuff like horrible Jenny in Dalek Invasion of Earth with her world weary cynicism and stuff.

And he wants to do all of that sort of stuff.

But he kind of swings and misses and always just sort of accidentally lands in camp, you know, like and...

We are. you know, Blake 7 came up.

So, so with this, everyone's sort of, everyone's running around with guns and posturing and sort of being macho and the doctor doesn't really have a role in a story like this.

The doctor's just constantly on the rum.

Yeah, it might be important to note that Bill Hartle agreed with you and he was it was really at loggerheads with him that this is not Doctor Who and the kids are going to be, this is not the show we're supposed to be making.

Yeah, it's not, you know, visiting strange new places and it's the doctors dropped in a space opera.

And, you know, we have done that before.

The doctors dropped in the earlier, the doctors dropped in in ancient Rome.

[18:16]

We're going to see the doctor dropped in a western.

You know, like it is sort of something we've done before.

But because it's because this is a space opera, because Doctor Who is sort of science fiction, it kind of skews the story a little bit.

I really love that it does though.

It really is one of my all time favourites.

And as I say, I only know it through audio and the brilliant Rosemary Howe novelisation of the late 70s, which is from the Australian Doctor Who fan club.

Oh, that's right.

And she was the 1st one to write this out just from screen notes and other fans, other people around the world have said, she's still alive.

She's still with us, Tony Hall's mum. did a beautiful piece of writing and it really leaves the John Peel one where it should be, which is the back of the bookshelf.

Sorry.

But it's yeah, it's pretty awful.

But yeah, Rosemary Howe's novelisation of this is the 1st time I ever came across it and I just loved this story because of her writing.

And then hearing the audio, it just, it just impacted on that even further.

The audio, the BBC audio, I should say, did you say, Nathan, that that's available?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. and you can buy it on audible and stuff.

[19:16]

It's so worthless.

It's really great.

It really is a lovely piece and you don't lose anything not having the visuals.

Oh, really?

Oh, that's absolutely not true.

I see Doctor Who has 2 things and all a radio...

Okay, yes, you're right, because this is, we haven't mentioned who directed this.

No, we have.

It's Dougie Campfield, and it's spectacular.

And he can do no wrong.

Yeah, it's just great.

So we've got 2 5 and 10. 25 and 10 of the existing episodes.

There are clips from one that exist.

And there's that long clip from episode four.

So spaceship screen.

Yeah, there's lots of the model shots still exist.

Really great.

The long clip from episode 4 that you were referring to earlier leading up to Katerina's death.

We don't actually have her floating in space, but we have we have the 2 or 3 minutes leading up to it, which I believe we used on, they did.

They actually shot.

You know, you know that...

You know the bits in it.

You know bits in episode 5 with the with the teleporter sequence and Sarah and Stephen jumping up and down on trampolines.

It's Adrian Hill jumping up and down on a trampoline.

[20:17]

Before we've even, we get to the mice and Douglas Adams.

Can I just take a moment for us all?

Do you know who was meant to be in that airlock and sucked out into space?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was Maureen O'Brien's departure as organised and written in notes by John Wiles.

That's what he wanted to do to her, for complaining about her writing in galaxy.

Sand for mentions that as well.

Does he?

I've seen that in liner notes from naughty fan history that we're not supposed to be seeing.

I've got that from early 80s liner notes from friends in GW from the club in England.

So that's been known for a long time.

Goodness.

And Maureen has been such a diplomat.

Never, never.

I didn't know if she knew at the time.

What does that say?

For a children's document, for, you know, a drama, family drama, with a character that was so integral to the part to do that to her.

I think can I get all political?

Yes, please.

Because I think that, and this is a sort of standard thing as well, but you've had a character who represents modern youth, who has fermented revolution, and the 1st she's going to be flung out the airlock, and then we're going to proceed headlong into a series of sort of racist and, you know, barely defensible stories.

[21:34]

I'm gonna, you know, nail my trousers to the master at this very moment.

I think I think it would have been just nasty and mean-spirited.

Then I also think that there is a problem in tone with Dialect master plan that it is too nasty.

And particularly that, you know, that stupid planet, desperous, and Kirksen, and all of that sort of thing, that is really horrible and flushing around the airlock.

And, you know, like eventually the things that happen to Sarah and all of that and we'll get there.

Like, I just think I just think it's getting too nasty for Doctor Who.

And coming off, um, a story where all of the comedy characters have been brutally slaughtered in episode four.

Do you know what I mean?

Like, and, you know, we're about to have the massacre.

Yeah, we're about to have Peter Capaldi.

We're recording this early August 2014.

Now, we already know, Mr. Capaldi himself has said, I don't want the doctor to be anything you've seen in recent times.

[22:35]

And we've seen already some clips.

We're heading up to a much darker season.

What's your take on how dark Doctor Who should actually be?

I don't think it will get as dark as this.

Really?

Yeah.

Because I have to say, even though all of the things I've said about certainly the way that the female characters are treated in this makes me want to smack the table, this is, I love that it gets this dark.

And I because I love Blake 7 and I love when Terry Nation gets really...

But I don't think Blake 7 gets dark.

I think Blake 7 is sort of undermined. 1st episode, he's tried for child abuse.

Exactly.

But the whole thing is sort of sort of camped and stupider.

You can't really take it.

No I suppose.

But I'm very glad that you mentioned female characters because that's something I wanted to point out in this.

Galaxy 4, obviously you have very strong female characters.

Not necessarily very well drawn and complex.

Marga's quite complex, but only complex compared to her drones who are by definition very simple characters.

It would have been appalling had they been anything other than horribly blonde.

Yes.

Scan Norwegian.

[23:36]

Yeah, because that's really...

Mission to the unknown, no female characters at all.

And everyone gets killed.

And everyone gets horribly killed.

Yeah, well, with no women about, everyone gets killed.

That's interesting.

Myth makers.

Arguably, the villain is female.

Cassandra, I suppose, is very well played.

Yeah, is actually the most volatile.

Really a proper villain.

And hang on.

She's killed the spy.

And then the next, the end of episode 3 or is it, is it episode 3 when you get the time coming up.

She's saying, kill Vicky, take kill Chris.

Death of a spy comes up. who gets killed instead?

Tilt a man.

With an eye batch.

You know, she's...

She's as much of a villain as anyone is a villain.

Yeah, he's actually pavilion historical.

So he's turned around and she becomes... isn't she amazing?

And then we get...

John, we get...

And then we get John Wiles in full control.

[24:36]

And aside from the companion characters, let's just say companion characters, because that does encompass Katerina, she plays the function of a companion, whether she's... companionoids.

We've got Lizan as a female character.

We have Blossom Lefevre later on in the story.

But why?

Who's she?

That's about it.

Will will get there.

Oh, okay.

But that's about it.

You know, we don't have major female guest characters in this story.

All the important goals.

We don't know, man, the gender of the mice.

We don't know the gender of the mice or indeed the gender of the delegates.

Doesn't it make style?

They're all female.

Doesn't make style...

Doesn't it make Star Wars 2 attack of the clones look even pancier than it actually is?

This is a much better.

If you haven't watched, list, D listener, if you haven't watched Day of Armageddon, it's on YouTube.

This is episode two.

It's also in Lost in Time.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. episode 2 of the Daleks Master Plan.

Just honestly, I'm sorry, Mr. Lucas, this is actually a lot better.

[25:37]

It's so funny.

Like everyone's doing their most bizarre alien voice.

Gorgeous.

It's just gorgeous.

And they all have different, they all have different body languages, different ways of walking and different responses to gravity.

Yeah.

And that wonderful sort of cone head one.

I love the coding one.

Where's the cone head?

I don't know, but when that cone head runs off, when the alarm goes off, the cone head one is going...

Oh, he's really funny.

That is your big tone.

Like a like a triangle iron.

It's really weird.

But there is that the thing in about time that which sodding delegate was which.

Because it just seems that the production team have kind of lost track of who.

They didn't really know either.

Yeah, yeah. apparently the ones who were labelled in certain names in Mission to the Unknown are labelled as different names.

But I mean, essentially, Alfred is still the one with Eczema, I believe.

And that you've got Malpha and Zephon and Trance are the only ones that really matter, aren't they?

Yeah, well, Trantis is...

He comes up later.

[26:37]

Is he the bunch of kale?

No, he...

No, no, I think...

Zep, Zep, Zep, Zep.

Trantos is the minor from the Green Death.

With the pointy did.

If it is so round, why was not one of us asked to provide it?

That's him.

And then Chantis is the one who's white with balls all over him.

No, no, no.

Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, Trant, the scale.

So who's the one who's the one with salation?

It's the one with balls.

Salation is covered in balls.

And is the time destructure on the test, the time destructure on isolation.

So, okay, so we know who Malfa is.

We know who Trent is.

We know who Zephon is.

We know who salation is.

It's a rich cast of characters, isn't it?

That's not bad.

No, that's right.

But I'd love to know who the cone head guy is.

Yeah, well, we've got the cone head guy.

And we've got the sort of the sort of concertina fold guy.

The black concertina fold.

No, that's who I mean by the kind of head.

[27:39]

No, I mean Conehead, as in like Jane Curtain, Dan Ackroyd Conehead.

Oh, really?

Yeah, she's got a big domey thing.

Yeah.

I mean, yeah, she does look feminine.

No, so Concertina guy.

He's my favourite one But getting back to the whole female question.

The roles for women later on, as this series goes on, diminished terribly.

Pointy teeth is Roy Evans, isn't he?

He's the minor in the green.

Yeah, no, that's what it is.

Were you here?

Oh, yeah, winner.

I'll get there.

I couldn't remember.

He's go to Welsh dude.

We're not quite in a chrotic history since, you know, Christopher Bidme is probably watching this at home going, well, that's just not scientifically accurate.

I just have to, I do have to say, I adore Christopher Bid Mead, and when we get to season 18, I have a Christopher Bid Mead story.

Oh, do you?

I do indeed.

But I do agree with you that Doctor Who gets really nasty this year and I have a hard time watching Doctor Who this year for the same reason that as well written as the scripts are towards the end of Peter Davidson.

[28:41]

I have a very hard time with them because that's another time that Doctor Who gets very, very dark and it's just the sort of attitude of bad things happen and the doctor can't always sort them out.

And that's very much the thing here of, it gets to the point where the doctor's like, I, you know, I can't sort this out here.

I need to nick this spaceship and I need to go somewhere else.

And oh, right, now we can get back into the TARDIS.

I need to go into the Tartars and we just have to run.

And people, you know, people get hideously killed along the way. considering the Egypt episodes, where, you know, all these...

Gosh, this is...

Pyramid builder slaves.

There's so much a story of its time with, again, the Gaza problem that we're seeing right now being reflected in the story, but the whole terrainian Corbit being, you know, the uranium 238, I believe it was.

And all of that height singers, um, So it is a kind of nuclear thing, isn't it?

It is a nuclear thing.

It's got a core.

Yeah, it's got a name that sounds like a cross between Terry Nation and uranium, right?

[29:45]

So it's called terranium.

And originally viterranium, but apparently changed because Billy couldn't say it.

Oh, really?

Sarah Kingdom terry nation.

Are you hearing?

Yeah, everyone's called Tariff. to throw in and say, did you know Terry Nation objected to the killing off of the character?

He actually wanted her to stay as a companion and wrote it as such.

And it was wild, who just loves killing off women.

Oh, did I say that?

seems to be the way.

Well, no, no, she was killing off strong and interesting women.

And Adrian Hill.

The Dalek Art of Space, stop it.

The Dalek Art of Spacebook, his premise for his new show, The Disruptors, has Sarah in it with a new brother, this time called David.

But the, yeah, he, he, he, the vision was.

Sarah would be an ongoing character, as far as the script writer.

Yeah, yeah.

And of course, originally in Terry Nations script, Brett Vine wasn't Sarah's brother, he was her boyfriend.

Oh, you won't have boyfriends in Doctor Who.

Well, I think I think the actual show, isn't it?

I think the actual language in the script, because Terry thought, you know, this is one. 5 no, this is 2000 years in the future.

[30:50]

The original language you used in the script in episode five, Sarah says, Brett Bayern was my lover.

Yeah, that actually would have been a lot more interesting.

Yeah, and that's why they have different surnames.

No, and I have a different surname from my sister as well.

Oh, well, because she got married.

Oh, yes.

That's true.

But there's there's no...

So maybe there's a mystic kingdom somewhere.

He's probably a milkman or something.

Zookeeper.

A bit like Fargo where the detective's husband paints stamps.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so she goes off a hard day being a sort of space security agent and gunning people down and then comes into bed and they talk about their day.

And he's had a terrible day.

He gave someone 2 Greek yoghurts when it was meant to be too regular yoghurt.

This is this is the story where, and the reason I think it works is that you get these chiara scuro contrasts.

It's a really high Renaissance painting of the, or actually, it's like a Goya painting, actually, of the really savage depiction of drama and the goodness of people that comes out in that.

[31:56]

This is probably some of Billy's finest moments in this in self-sacrifice.

And this is also the story where he says, quote, I am a citizen of the universe and a gentleman to boot.

And yeah, there's some really lovely moments for the definition of the character of the doctor in this. despite, or maybe because of the horrible things that are going on around him.

Yeah, I mean, it does, I mean, it sort of cast simmers, you know, he'll eventually become the hero of these sort of space adventures, you know, and like in the 70s, we'll always be landing on spaceships and there'll be ray guns and then the doctor will be the hero.

Do you not think this is a story where...

Yes, this is the story where it starts to happen.

It's really bad at it in this story.

Yeah, he's uncomfortable.

That's what I like.

He's blocking his way through and he gets it wrong.

It's desperate and it's desperation, I suppose.

I suppose that's good in a way.

But at the end when he goes such a terrible waste.

Well, I suppose, I suppose in a way, you have to say that, yeah, this story does succeed because you feel so much of the death and the destruction in it.

[32:59]

You have an emotional resonance with it, which, to be fair, you don't often say about a Terry Nation script.

You know, people don't usually use the words tearing nation and emotional resonance together.

But it does happen here.

As we've just touched on, a lot of the stuff may not have actually been nationed, but Miles and Spooner and Josh.

So we wander away from that whole Terry Nation script for a while and we do get a little bit of a relief.

But as you pointed out, like we go to ancient Egypt for 2 episodes and there's a lot of killing and stuff like that.

But we do have Peter Butterworth.

We get the meddling mob.

We get the money back.

And that's really terrific.

And there's that superb cliffhanger, which has got to be Spooner.

You know, the mummy... comes out of the theme.

And it turns out that it's, it's, it's the monk, that the doctor has beaten up and wrapped in, in sort of bandages and shelved in a sarcophagus and all of that stuff's terribly funny and terribly light and you get, you get the doctor fiddling with the monks TARDIS and turning it into like a motorcycle and various other things. block of ice.

[34:00]

Yeah, all of that stuff's really fun.

And then he steals the directional thing.

And we kind of need that because the doctor can't steal the target, but we have to get back to Campbell somehow.

Felicity Campbell.

Felicity Campbell.

And so all of that stuff's really light and we haven't talked about episode seven.

The Christmas special.

Which is where Blossom La Favre comes in.

Is she a silent film actress, yeah.

And yeah, episode seven.

It's a wonderful idea to have this Christmas episode because John Well suddenly looked at the schedule and went, not only do I have to put up with this 12 episode story that's been commissioned, that we don't have scripts for, there's an episode that's going to be going out on Christmas Day, and our ratings will drop.

We can't have a part of the main narrative.

What are we going to do?

Let's have a Christmas episode, which the very 1st Doctor Who Christmas episode, which also does what you were saying about a story last season, Richard.

It does other TV shows and films.

[35:01]

It does Zed cars.

It does silent film.

Dixon of Dockroom.

Dixon of Dot Green.

Now, this may just be rumour, but I've heard it reported as a fact that much like the Beatles.

Originally, the police officers were meant to be the cast of Zedcars.

Oh that's right.

They were.

Yeah, and the cast were up for it.

And again, it was the producer of Zed cars who said, no, you can't send this up like that.

The thing is, they, you know, they weren't really being sent up.

But I love the lead into it that the doctor's like, oh, the atmosphere is toxic outside.

And then by way of explanation, the doctor says, you 2 are from the future.

Your air's been purified.

You can't step out in Liverpool.

And there's all that comedy business that we'll see a bit more of later on as Stephen not understanding modern day earth.

And yeah, then we then we get the whole silent film bit, which would have been absolutely wonderful and apparently it had captions and it's got...

I'm really sad we don't get Gene Mush straddling the light on top of the TARDIS and trying to fix that.

[36:06]

Remember, she was the one.

Yeah, she does right on the right one.

She's fabulous in that sequence, in that stuff in Liverpool.

She's hilarious with the cops.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's terrific.

Strange man kept telling me to take my clothes.

Oh, that's later in the films.

I do Becky Harvey.

Yeah, I said watch the reconstruction, just the audios as usual.

There is a sort of crummy...

It's all right, but it's animation.

Yeah, it's not done.

Very high quality.

Yeah, the animated version commissioned by Ian Levine isn't too bad.

It's not as good as the mission to the unknown animation.

It's done by a different animator.

And if you're listening and you're the animator, I do apologise.

Yeah, it's fantastic.

We love it.

Well, you know, it's, as I say, it's not bad.

It's just not animated in my personal, to my personal taste.

Oh, I watched the recon on the recons perfectly serviceable, and the recon does do the caption slides and everything.

Like it, uh, you know, it's, it is just terrifically fun and funny.

And you are, like, what are you going to do?

Like, are you going to have like a green, dark, terry nation, you know, gunfest with Daleks murdering kind of delegates, you know, on Christmas Day?

[37:14]

That's no good.

The Daleks just don't appear at all.

No.

And then, of course, it's got that classic moment at the end, which we reenacted earlier with our champagne, where William Hartnell toasts the audience.

He does. breaks the wall.

And I just hate now how that's sort of been recon by members of the production team saying, oh, you know, it was an ad lib and we didn't ask Billy to do that.

It's in the script.

It could have been cut very easily.

You know, okay, it would have cost £100 to cut it or however much it cost to edit video back then, but it could have been cut, and it was a common thing for programs to do at that stage for the stars to break the 4th wall.

I mean, you know, like for the rest of its run, Doctor Who has been so firmly and strictly realist that the idea that someone would turn to the audience and toast them, that's appalling.

We can't possibly have that.

Even the Sonic Screwdriver...

And you kind of alluded to this earlier.

The reason that works is because it's so completely necessary for the rest of this plot.

[38:14]

You need that light relief. break, yeah.

The balance of the dark is so very dark.

I love to see that episode.

It's the one I really would like to see.

Is that the one that you're least likely to do?

Exactly.

I just want to see how Canfield carried it off.

Because you know he would have made an absolute treasure of it.

It would have been a...

It's interesting that Dougie Canfield himself who apparently wrote the breaking the 4th wall, dotted a camera scene of and toasting the audience.

He was doing a lot of rewriting and often on set, and he was notorious for folding up a £one note, which was a lot in those days, and holding up and saying, who's got the best resolution for this problem?

Because they were often working with a script that was barely structured out.

This is almost improv theatre, which is why so much of it is so fresh to listen to now. then slightly pants.

I was a slightly padded, which can produce some really interesting results.

Hopefully like this podcast.

So obviously the following episode goes out on New Year's, day, New Zealand.

[39:18]

I suppose so.

26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31.

Okay.

We should really know. every year, actually. happens on the same date.

But the fun thing is, of course, that that ends, like they go to the oval and stuff and then there's some stuff is Trantis, they're experimenting with the training court.

They have the training core.

Yeah, they've give it up.

No, they're still a fake one.

So when do they get the real one?

Oh god.

There's too many episodes in this.

I can't remember That's the thing.

A lot of lather rinse repeat.

Yeah, yes.

So they've got one of the terranium courses.

Yeah, because the fake terranium core does work very briefly.

And there's the thing I love about the fake geranium core is when they're figuring out how they can, because the doctors made the fake geranium core.

It's like, how do I charge this up?

And Stephen says, oh, well, if we attach it to the engine, we can do this.

And Stephen's from the future, but Sarah's from even further in the future and goes, that's a stupid idea.

Yeah, they actually both make fun of him.

Don't they both gang up on Steven?

[40:18]

Yeah, they both gang up on Stephen.

So he electrocutes himself to prove a point. and makes it work.

And I think it's a weird moment, but it's another moment of...

It is a moment of levity because it's Steven's pride has been hurt by a woman.

So he's going to show her. a Homer Simpson moment.

And he spends a whole episode like being executed, being electrocuted, doesn't he?

being sluggish and knowing what's going on. also having a shield around him.

God, yeah, that's right.

Well, who's going to question the ropey science at this point?

But you love the ice soldiers of mariners.

So don't don't don't don't you groan about someone having a personal course field.

So, so, oh, yes, it actually saves him, does it?

It actually ends up saving it.

It saves them all and lets them get back to the TARDIS.

Yes, what nonsense.

So it is the fake core that they have in episode eight.

Yes, because they can test it on Tractus, but that's not the power.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, I don't think it works on chance, don't they?

They're forced to kind of shoot him.

Oh yeah, that's right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, uh, and then that's when the Dalek Time machine is sent after them.

[41:23]

So this is when the chase part 2 begins.

So, you know, they encounter the monk in episode A on the planet, Tigers, and the episode ends with them.

They land in the present day, like on New Year's Eve.

They land a few hours before broadcast.

Like, are they in Trafanada Square or something, and we know that the Daleks are on their way.

So it's like the Daleks, like episode 8 ends with this at a fun moment where the Daleks are heading towards us.

In the audience, you know, to destroy the museum, which I just think is sort of terrifically fun.

And then we get the 2 episodes in ancient Egypt and then we're back to the grim dark planet of Gemble all over again.

Terry Nation script was in fact 24 pages when delivered.

Spoon.

Okay, so I was wrong in that regard?

Not at all.

Spooner, they're double-sided.

Spooner had worked with Nation before and wasn't at all surprised, but it was delivered on it in a taxi.

[42:25]

It had glorious notes of spaceships.

It apparently had all the delegates defined and it had a lengthy description of Vicki's death with, and I'll quote, a seraphic Mona Lisa smile on her lips as she floats out of the airlock.

Thank you, Terry.

So that's pretty much all that Spooner and Tosh got.

This is a Spooner and Tosh script.

So anything that will mean something to you now, dear listener, as you've heard us go on about, say these things in the past, dear.

All of that stuff where you're talking about the bantering episode one where the 2 people are talking about, how much they like, um, how much they like, Mavic Chan, whom we haven't even mentioned.

Do you know his original name was Boonehong?

In in nation script, yeah.

Yeah, aside from the roles of women, we're about to get onto the other thing.

Is he he's in blackface, isn't he?

We like to think he's blue, that it's not racist, that he's a blue person from the future.

[43:28]

See, I do think in...

In some way, because...

He's the Mekon from Dan Deer that is green in that with the same epicath involved.

Yeah, he really is, this question.

He's got fingernails, giant fingernails, because it's...

It's the yellow peril, isn't it?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

It's a colo. the Comi peril.

It's the Comi peril.

You've got like being the merciless and stuff.

You know, they're always slightly, like it is that sort of scary oriental thing and he is called Chen after all.

And his saxophone is Fu Manchu from the 1912 novel, the same.

So it is, it's just sort of weird, lazy racism, but he, he's so superb.

He's so tremendous.

That's the thing, isn't it?

It's like, yeah, this is racist, but it's actually a really good performance.

Yes, because he does nuance and over the top in both hands.

Yeah, he doesn't do any comedy accents or anything.

[44:29]

And you get this, I think that's the big thing.

He doesn't.

He's got he's got the makeup, but he doesn't do the thing that would later be problematic for John Bennett.

He doesn't do the sort of stereotype racist Johnny Chinaman accent and I use that inadverted commas because that is how it was referred to.

No, in fact, it's a great performance because he's massively suave and in control.

He's really, really funny actually.

He doesn't quite get the Tobias Vaughan thing, which will get in a couple of years time, because we'll say bring him back for another giant epic story to be the villain.

Um, He doesn't do that, Tobias, fallen thing, of being hilariously amused when he's being foughted, which I just think is spectacular.

But he's completely in control.

And, you know, like even when he doesn't manage, you know, he loses the doctor on the planet mirror.

There's all these stuff ups and stuff.

But he manages to cover it up and he manages to be sort of terribly suave until the very end, until those last 2 episodes or so where he just kind of loses it and his surplus to requirements.

[45:33]

And, you know, what the Daleks have imprisoned all of the other delegates, but he's sort of lauding it over them and then, you know, he, they pretend to let the delegates escape, but blow them up, but Chen sort of somehow escapes and he's menacing.

You know, he can't believe the Badaleks don't need him and he thinks he's going to take over from them and stuff.

And he does go crazy at the end.

But it is a terrific.

It's a terrific through line, like a really great fun performance.

He's such an amazing character in that, you know, a lot of characters think they can better the daleks and end up failing.

But this is the only character where you think actually genuinely deep down to the core of his being, he thinks he can do it.

You know, most people when they when they try and double cross Daleks.

You know, they have their doubts and they're hoping they can get through, whereas Maverick Cham is just like, no, of course I can do that.

I'm Mavic Chan.

Magic, magic.

I mean, right from his very 1st appearance where he's being interviewed on the TV news and you've got people talking about how wonderful he is.

He's a rock star.

He's the rock star president.

[46:34]

He's he's Barack Obama.

Tony Blair.

Well, early Tony Black.

Yeah, that's right.

But I am simply talking about the media machine rub than any politics involved.

But yeah, he's the rock star president.

Yeah, no.

He's there for Beabot Rocks.

There you go.

That's it.

I mean, he's wonderful.

He's absolutely superb.

He's the master of the 60s.

And as you glued it too earlier, there's a lot of the dialogue.

A lot of the dialogue in this is actually lifted straight off and put into Dogado.

Kevin Stony even says, you will obey me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, and I think the master has a fun line in sort of going hysterical when his alien allies kind of sort of turn on him in episodes 6 or 4 or whatever.

And I guess, I mean, that's, we're kind of talking about the last few episodes, episodes.

We've always proceeded in a rough order.

What do you think about talking about the time destructor then?

[47:34]

So one of the great things about the recon.

I hadn't seen the recons before.

I had heard the audio a lot.

I was really impressed watching the recons with the Qic design stuff and how consistent it was with the look he'd given the Daleks in the previous stories.

So the Dalek Time machine looks the same.

Even though sort of crazy, you know, the gear team doors?

No, yeah, yeah, the doors and the and the outlines of the doorways and stuff, which we commented on in the Daleks, you know, they were sort of strange and sort of unworldly and things, you know, not not human.

And they're all there.

When Chen leads Stephen and Sarah down down the passageway to the Dalek base at the end of episode 11.

It's through a corridor that looks like that.

It was wonderful to see all of all of that stuff.

The recons, though, do something sort of massively clever though.

And that's, you remember they get the sort of time destructor, which is kind of weird and the scary, you know, it makes a noise and it's like, it's, it's, and it's very deep bass noise.

[48:40]

It sort of sits in your gut when you hear it.

And it just runs for minutes and minutes around the soundtrack, like it's all the way through the end of the thing.

And, you know, they're trying to escape with it.

I can't remember what they want to do. they think they can disable it when they get to the TARDIS or something. can't remember.

Yeah, that's the thing.

It's kind of like we can't switch it off where we are.

And we can't leave the Daleks with it.

So let's let's take it and hope that, but also, you know, taking it doesn't enhance its effect.

It's affecting the whole planet, I think.

And so, and so they're running through the, the, um, the jungle and Sarah's getting affected by it.

And what the recon people do is they use a photograph of Gene Marsh, like a recent photograph of Gene Marsh.

Yeah, yeah. you know, a particularly bad one of her with added lines and what happened.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, I mean, Gene Marsh is, you know, a striking and gorgeous and attractive woman, but she's, you know, this is... that's right This is a long time ago and she was silky hot catsuit, Emma Peel, sort of Kathy Gale anyway, sort of, um, uh, you know, heroin, um, and she just ages before our eyes and it's really, really horrifying.

[49:55]

And I actually found that a lot more horrifying than sort of strange brushhead wig thing that she ends up wearing when she, when she sort of finally crawling across the sand and dying.

Yeah.

And, well, I mean, what I what I find amazing is, um, In in the audio, it comes across that when the doctor tries to help her, she pushes him away, like she's like, no, you keep going.

She calls out to him, like, help, I'm in pain.

But then she's like, no, you keep going.

And then when Stephen tries to help the doctor.

Just the fury in Billy's voice.

No, get back.

It's like, you know, Katerina's already sacrificed herself.

The doctor and Sarah are ready to die as well.

And then Sarah dies and the doctor lives.

And it's a bit like when Douglas Canfield decided to show the Daleks as these sort of starfish creatures.

Yeah, sort of embryos.

We go back in time a bit or something.

Well, he's like, I think I've read an interview somewhere where either Terry Nation or Dennis, someone who was involved in the creative process, their thought was with the Daleks, because in sort of the mind of the 60s, unless they're destroyed Dalek through Immortal.

[51:04]

Instead of just ageing the Daleks, they decided to evolve the Daleks.

So what the Daleks will become.

The Daleks hint in the story that the doctor is more than human.

And so he's from another galaxy or something and he's a time thing.

Sarah, ages to death.

The Daleks age 1000000s of years.

The doctor falls over.

You know, it...

It does that one thing at least in reestablishing the mystery of the character, because the mystery, the character is a bit gone because the mystery entirely depended on Ian Barbara kind of going, oh, we don't know who he is.

And that mystery, sort of for a curious child.

Not a lot of children would have thought, well, why did why did the doctor die?

Because he's much older than Sarah.

He should have died...

Yeah, there's a 1st intimation that there's something about him.

Um, there is sort of literature at the time where I think Variety Lambert and William Hart will both refer to him as being several 100 years old.

Yeah.

[52:05]

But I could be wrong.

Certainly, Patrick Trouchon refers to him as being several hundreds, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think the other thing too is that the Campbell, you know, the fact that the Planet Campbell, which was 1st introduced to us, like months ago in mission to the unknown, somewhere that we've been...

Yeah, yeah, we've been to it 3 times or something like that and we've been back all the time over the last 3 months.

Yes, unheard of.

Yeah, it's been the backdrop and it's completely destroyed as well.

And like, like we get this sort of desert background now, like the jungle with its the BBC sound effects record and stuff is completely gone.

And so all of that is like it's a huge, and we've already said, you know, mission to the unknown, everyone gets killed.

Mythmaker, because everyone gets killed.

You know, all this whole thing ends with them talking about all the people like Brett and Sarah and Katerina who've died, you know, so again, like the doctor kind of prevents the Daleks invading the galaxy or whatever it is they want to do, but the whole emphasis of that final scene is on all of the people that he failed to save.

[53:12]

And so the whole story has been the whole show has been, had these sort of series of successive, miserable endings.

And it is just the way things are going.

Fortunately.

The next story is called the massacre.

So it's fine.

Well, it's a laugh a minute.

No, I just I think this is a great celebration of what the show can do that it hasn't done before and just how it can be any other thing.

Right now it's being Heisenberg and the Manhattan Project and it's being the communist threat now from China as much as Soviet Russia, which is, I think, where Matic Chin is coming from.

But at the same time, it's being Dan Dare and it's...

I think all of those things are like, yeah, and Billy is the quiet centre.

And I think even though he loses it a few times in this and is quite volatile.

You just see how fantastically Homerically heroic he is in this.

He really makes things happen.

[54:12]

He really is the reason that this comes about, and he inspires even an up to the ultimate sacrifice, not once, but several times in the narrative, mostly from women.

Thanks for that.

So, yeah, I think I think sort of the final line we can say on it is it is a very successful story.

It is a very enjoyable story, but it is it is still problematic in the way it's treating what have become the traditions of the series because it's been on the air for 3 years now.

Yeah, sorry, 2 and a bit years, I would say.

It's still a problem 50 years on.

Yeah, yeah.

So people say it's a classic and yeah, in a way it is a classic, but it's not without its problems.

Well, yes, I'd have to say that's the case.

There you go.

Well done.

So...

So, God.

Well, so we got through that was our 12 episodes on the Daleks master plan.

Please come back next week where we will be talking about the next 3 stories in the season and greeting another new companion who is definitely a companion for better or for worse in the massacre, the ark and the celestial toy maker.

[55:23]

So we'll see you then.

Good night.

Good night.

Good night.

You have been listening to Flight Through Entirety with Nathan Botomley, Brendan Jones, and Richard Stone.

This episode, How would You Address a God, who was recorded on Sunday, the 10th of August.

The next episode will be released on September 7th.

You can find us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and FTE podcast on Twitter, and incidentally, a happy podcast to all of you at home.

I I don't think we will talk about that week's Master Craig in 45 minutes.

So this is where we're going to make some time up, because even though it's 12 episodes, this is episodes a plot.

Well, we can talk about that.