Never Going to Win

[00:31]

Hello, dear listeners, and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast you actually recommends wearing real cats on your lapels rather than just badges.

Don't try that at home and please don't sue.

I'm Brendan.

I'm Nathan I'm Todd.

And we are exploring the entire lengthy Colin Baker era today with the Colin Baker retrospective.

I will hand over to you in a moment, Todd, but I'd like to explain 1st why Richard hasn't joined us today.

As we've discussed before, Richard, At the time, didn't really enjoy the Colin Baker era, he found it difficult to get through.

And this time around, he has not managed to get through season 22.

He's just not enjoying it at all, and he felt that it would be unfair both to appear as he hasn't enjoyed the era, and because he hasn't finished the era, and he thought rather than turn up and be negative, Um, he just decided he was going to, you know, not have anything nice to say, not have anything at all.

As we discussed last week, you know, he loves big finish audios, but just the era as it is on television, he just can't stomach it.

[01:34]

So that's why Richard isn't joining us today.

And the reason I'm joining us is because I've got lots of negative things to say about the era.

Do you?

Have any positives at all?

Yeah.

Have you discovered some things of merit?

Yeah, yeah.

Well, that's quite short.

That's your job to find out.

I'm handing over to you.

Thank you.

Thank you listeners.

Okay, let's just start with Strong Marrier void.

I need to start on a positive note.

So, Brendan, here's your dog, Marrier void.

Edgeworth, Kimba, or the surviving nappy man.

Oh, my ponchant for older man has come back to haunt me.

Look, I think I'd have to avoid the nappy man because he's going to eat me.

Right.

You know, so and I'm not judging anyone out there who's into erotic cannibalism.

It's not my thing.

Okay.

I thought that last barbeque we had at yours was really good.

So I think I would have to Snog Edgeworth.

[02:38]

Because, you know, it's Morris Denim.

Good, lots of lovely stories, and we know he can't hold his drink either.

Um, so he, you know, he'd be fun at parties.

I think I'd have to marry Kimba for 2 reasons.

One, he's rich enough to go aboard the Hyperion 3 and two, I know he's going to be dead soon.

You'll inherit all of that lovely money.

I am Anna Nicole Smith, you know, people mistake us all the time, despite the fact, I'm not blonde or dead.

So, um, yeah, I think it's avoid the nappy man.

Snog, Professor Edgeworth and marry Mr. Kimber.

Great.

Nathan.

God.

It's not Marion Boyd.

Eric, say what?

Philip Martin or Ron Jones?

Oh, dear.

Dear, dear, dear.

So these are responsible for the uh, the train wreck of a story and 2 out of 3 of our puzzling creative choices for um, season 23.

I think I would avoid Eric Saywood, because if he ever listens to this podcast...

[03:46]

That's it.

Philip Martin is actually talented, I think.

He's got something going for him.

Um, yeah, let's nog Philip Martin.

At least that'll stop him talking, I suppose.

Okay.

And and Ron Jones.

You know, he's bringing in a massive BBC paycheque, I think, for directing Doctor Who in the mid 1980s.

Hed be rolling in it.

So I'd have to marry him.

And did you know after he did Mind Warp?

The reason he didn't work for Doctor Who again was nothing to do with the quality of his work, he actually moved to Germany and directed for television there until he died in 1993.

Ah.

That soon after.

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Wow.

So, so much like Mr. Kimba, you know, you've only got a few.

Yeah.

I was going to give myself a really good one.

Now I've got to give myself something that's great.

No, no, can I give you one?

Okay, listeners, I'm ready for it.

I'm not ready for it all.

No.

Yes, go for it.

Snog, marry, avoid.

Bruckner, Doland, or Lasky.

[04:54]

Which one's Bruckner?

He's he's the remember.

He's the highly strong one with the moustache.

Yeah, Buckner's Gary McDonald from Mother of the Sun.

Oh, okay.

Doland is the curly haired one who is the villain.

And...

Well, they know who Lasky is.

Yes.

I'm surprised.

The vervoids actually.

I'm marrying Lasky.

Oh God, yeah.

And um, I think I'm going to avoid the murderer.

Yeah, no, I think that's why.

I think that's why.

So it means I have to snug Gary McDonald from mother and son.

Oh well, there you go.

There you go.

Free moustache ride.

Oh, wow.

Wow.

All right.

We'll have another one of those.

Because I told you something.

No, I've actually got I've actually got one that I that I think you'll rather enjoy.

Okay, this is probably the most controversial era of the program.

And we certainly came into it very differing opinions.

What's your feeling now that you've watched this whole era?

[05:57]

Has, has, has your opinion changed?

But the better for the worse.

I think that the quality of the stories is worse than in the Davison era.

And I think all the flaws of the Davis and era are really, really apparent in this era.

So I think the stories are worse.

I think they're repetitive and unimaginative and, you know, tiresome.

I think there are some exceptions.

I thought that the 2 doctors was good because it's Bob Holmes, I thought that Revelation of the Daleks was, say, was best script and was really interesting and was clearly inspired by Holmes.

So I don't think it's, the stories are completely without merit, but just the tone, I think, is unpleasant.

I guess what I found is that, The bits of Collins performance that don't work are overwhelmingly to be found in season 22.

[06:59]

And it's the bullying and the kind of nastiness.

And that now seems to me to be more easily separable from his performance as a whole.

It's clear that everyone involved soon regards that as a mistake.

And it's not really very present in season 23.

I think there are some things that Colin is very good at, and I guess I hadn't really been aware of this before.

I think he's funny.

Um, and I think his doctor works when he's oblivious rather than unpleasant.

So all of those things he does in season 23 where, you know, the companions warning him about danger and he's kind of ignoring them or agreeing with them and then blundering on anyway.

And I also think because he's bombastic and overconfident, it's funny when he gets cut down by being wrong and he's very frequently wrong.

And I think that's funny and sort of rather sweet.

And so that's something I think I've come to appreciate about his performance.

[08:00]

And I haven't had the big finish experience that you guys have had.

But it seems to me that the big Finnish doctor is more likeable than the season 22 doctor.

And so Colin gets to do things that he's good at and leave behind just the sort of terrible mistakes of the way his doctor was kind of initially characterised.

Okay, Brendan.

Yeah, the sort of new thing I've picked up on in this era.

The 6th doctor has always been a favourite of mine even before Big Finish.

I think, possibly as a child, I liked the lack of filter, because that is very childlike quality to not think before you speak.

And there's certainly elements of that in this doctor's characterisation.

I think now it's less of a matter of not thinking before he speaks.

He knows exactly what he's saying and he knows exactly what the effect is going to be.

And it goes back to something you said when we were recording the twin dilematod in that we go from having a doctor who is very passive and sort of is happy to sit back and watch events unfold and then step in.

[09:08]

So having a doctor who is proactive for better or for worse, you know, he might blunder into a situation and then have to fix what he's done, but that is a deliberate choice.

I think the problem here is a combination of the fact that, and we've said this quite a bit, The production team are now just making Doctor Who because that's what we do now.

You know, we're making Doctor Who because we've always made Doctor Who.

The problem then arises because Colin and Nicola come in and they are enthusiastic and talented and want to make this a real go.

And they're kind of the only 2 people that enthused for the project.

So they're not getting material that's worthy for them.

Unlike, however, Peter Davidson.

Because Peter got some material that wasn't worthy of him.

And you can kind of see he's visibly bored and phoning it in.

It's a competent performance, but there's not much intent behind the eyes.

Colin and Nicola, regardless of the material they're given.

[10:12]

Give the same energy and the same dedication and the same.

Believability and verisimilitude in their performance, you know, you believe in these characters.

The problem is you might not like them all the time, especially in the case of the doctor, you might not like him all the time.

I don't think Perry ever becomes unlikeable.

But there is a truthfulness, even in the early troubled part of this era, that wasn't always there in the Davis era.

Despite the fact that the quality of the show goes down through no fault of Colin and Nicola.

I enjoy this era more than the previous era because there is a greater consistency of delivery.

You kind of know what you're getting.

And when we were discussing season 22, I think there's a hit rate of 4 good, enjoyable stories out of 6 in there for me.

With Season 23, the biggest surprise for me watching this, and as our listeners now know, I sat down and watched it all in one day, is, How good?

[11:23]

Mind Warp mostly is.

It's kind of just the last 10 minutes where it falls apart.

And it's not just the death of Perry in that 10 minutes because dramatically that is something that could have worked.

But again, the emphasis is wrong.

There is an attempt by Ron Jones of all people. to try and give it some visual flair and, you know, excellent performances, to try and make this something weighty.

But I think it's undermined even before we get to the retcon at the end because.

It's Doctor Who doing the kind of death that Doctor Who in the new series might do and actually having fallout from that.

But there's there's no real fallout.

You know, it's just, it's the initial impact and we don't see anyone dealing with it or grieving with it.

It was the same problem back with Adrip.

But even then there was a scene.

Of people who knew Adric and loved him discussing it.

You know, whereas this?

The doctor's got no one to talk to about Perry's death.

So, yeah, the big thing I've come away with from this is Colin, Nicola, later, Bonnie, I don't think any of them set a major foot wrong except for the twin dilemma.

[12:35]

The violence in the twin dilemma from on the part on behalf of the doctor is still inexcusable.

I know Colin was new, but He knew the show, and he should have known enough to step up and say, hold on, I think we're taking this too far.

But aside from that, I don't think any of the 3 of them set a foot wrong, and I think they're very poorly served by people who aren't interested in their jobs anymore.

Interesting.

It comes at a weird time in our own personal sort of Doctor Who journey, though, doesn't it?

Because you and me told, at least, because we're at a particular age where we're starting to own the program a bit, you know, like Tom was the doctor when we kind of started watching, I think.

Is that right?

And so, you know, Pete and Colin are our 1st new doctors and we kind of watch that unfold.

I remember being really excited when Colin came along because I thought this is going to be our doctor.

I've grown to appreciate Pete's performance, particularly during, you know, our flight through entirety.

[13:36]

But I think at the time, he, didn't really grab me.

And so I understand that feeling that this sort of new, a new sort of big bombastic doctor in the, in the kind of mould of Tom Baker, which is what I think we thought we were getting.

I remember saying to a friend of the podcast, Matthew Farrow, this is, this is going to be our doctor.

This is gonna be really something.

He is my doctor.

Yeah, he is my doctor.

And I'm really proud of that. you know?

He came along at the time I needed him to come along.

And the, I can't fault his performance.

I just I just can't fault it.

One of the things that you said, Nathan, is the location work and a real strength, and that's something I really have appreciated this time through.

And also his lightness of touch in season 23.

It's a very different performance and I never really have seen it before.

It's only now looking back.

That you then look at those harder edges in season 22 with the character, right?

[14:42]

Which I can now see a lot more of.

And I don't necessarily have a problem with them, but it's something that, you know, at the end of the season, it seems to be softening by revelation of the Daleks.

But it could not have continued in that same way.

And I think one of the things is if the show hadn't have been axed or removed for 18 months.

We, of course, have taken a journey into the season that that never was.

And when I was choosing that particular set of stories, which I recommended to listeners, it was choosing the ones that I felt could bridge between what actually exists.

And so I went for all the the positives.

Yeah.

But when you actually sit down and you look at that season, that never was and what the production team was not bringing to the table in terms of originality, would they have really addressed the peri doctoral relationship in a really meaningful way if they had not been stopped by the BBC to say, look, things have to change.

[15:43]

You know, if nothing had been said, would it have just continued on?

Do you know what I mean?

It did sound like, and it's hard to know, but it certainly sounded like Colin and Nicola had thought about their performance after 18 months away and had decided that these 2 wouldn't be travelling together if they still had their season 22 relationship going.

That's true, but I'm saying like if we had got the season that never was.

I don't, I'm not convinced that that would have happened.

No, you're right.

And and I know that you complain about the lack of ideas and that sort of thing.

I think in season 22, I don't have a problem with having the cybermen, all the Centaurans, or the Daleks.

We've had that before in Tom's 1st season to have a new doctor in, but then you needed something new.

Like, like, if that had been the end of Eric Sabard and John Nathan Turner?

Fair enough, but of course that's, you know, by the bye.

I've come to appreciate season 23 a lot more, a lot more, like there's so many more positives that I really like in it.

Look, I've gone on about the trial and what I think of that construct and how poorly that serves the show and it's the wrong vehicle for them bringing it back.

[16:52]

But I still like it.

Like I've actually, I actually like it, which is bizarre.

I still prefer season 22 over 23 because you've got individual stories and I still, there's 4 stories in there that I really love.

And I know it's not everybody's cup of tea.

You know, coming into this, listeners, you know, the original brief way back was, I was just going to come in and do this era.

I turned up a lot sooner, right?

And so, you know, it's been a joy to be able to do the entire era.

And I think Richard, you know, we did a switcheroo with season 23, 24 because I really wanted 23 and Brendan's outlined, Richard's reasons.

And if there's just one person out there that, for me, has a reevaluation of this year and say, look, there is something in here that I like more than what I did, then I'm really happy.

And all Doctor Who is, to me, imperfect, right?

And sometimes the imperfections in some eras aggravate people more than others. you know?

And so the imperfections here forced by 45 minute episodes or a one story season structure.

[17:54]

Don't bother me as much as what other people might be bothered by.

But I can, but I can see the problems.

I can see, I can, you know, I can see the problems in the writing in terms of the bitch scenes and that sort of structure in season 22 But, you know, I'm not desperately upset about it.

Yesterday on Facebook, someone posted something asking our opinion about the Daleks, you know, the original 7 part Dalek story from season one.

And the only thing that I could say was that I love it to death.

But if I had to sit down and write a 5000 word essay about what's crap about it, I would have absolutely no difficulty doing that at all.

And the same with season 17.

You know, season 17 is a lot of cardboard sort of space corridors and and, you know, with the exception of City of Death.

And, you know, there's a parallel, I think, between season 17 and season 22 where, again, it's lots of space corridors with science fiction and things happening.

I think season 17 is saved by the charm of the regulars and the wit of the script editor.

[18:59]

But, you know, it's not like the show hasn't been like this before.

I think a big positive of the Colin Baker era is its willingness to experiment.

Because the Davidson era, I'm I'm struggling to come up with something that was experimental.

Enlightenment.

Yes, okay.

Modern Undead.

Enlightenment.

Yeah, modern undead with its unusual storytelling.

Yeah, fair enough.

Earth shock.

Yeah, but at the end of Black Orchid.

You shut.

You know what?

Okay.

If you look at various other dog 2 seasons, if you look at season five, you know, you know, that's the Trout and Monster season.

If you look at season seven, it's like, that's the serious doom watch style.

Season eight, that's where the master comes in.

Season 11, that's when Sarah Jane arrives.

Season 16, it's the key to time.

Season 17, it's Douglas Adams.

[20:00]

Season 22.

That's the one with the 13 45 minute episodes.

And is it too violent?

Season 23.

That's trial of a timelord.

You know.

They are instantly recognisable things about the whole season.

Yeah.

And it's kind of like, on the one hand, we did have a producer and a script editor who were tired of working on the show and had trouble coming up with individually interesting ideas, but they try instead to come up with overarching ideas of tone.

Which I agree, the tone of season 22 is bizarre.

It's like, imagine season 22, but with the tone and execution, and performance from Colin of season 23.

I think it would be a lot more fondly remembered because some...

If there was a bit less cannibalism, you reckon?

Well, not even less cannibalism because we're going to see cannibalism next year.

Don't quite effectively, but still scary.

You know, but not horrible.

And I think that's that's part of the problem.

[21:02]

Doctor Who is always scary, but when it veers into the territory of being horrible and horrific, Then that becomes a problem.

I think season 22 would be a lot better remembered.

I think the show probably still would have been put on hiatus, because I don't think the show going on hiatus was largely to do with the quality of the show.

I think it was an ideological agenda within the BBC of this looks cheap.

We're going to get rid of it because season 17 looks cheap and it's magnificent, you know, even even the space corridors has Nightmare of Eden has horns of Nimon, which may not be highbrow, high quality, but it's still incredibly enjoyable.

You know, the scripts of season 22, by and large, the stories make narrative sense, with one or 2 exceptions like the end of time lash.

The relationship between the doctor and Perry could have been played in a different way without massive changes to dialogue.

What you were saying a moment ago told about, you know, would they have changed direction without the hiatus?

[22:03]

And no, I don't think they would have done.

Because if you read the novelisation of the nightmare fair.

At the beginning, when Perry is complaining about being in Blackpool and the doctors telling her how wonderful it is, and he says to her, you're going to enjoy this if it kills you.

The way it's written. is exactly how it is in season 22, like the doctor grits his teeth and Perry rolls her eyes in lady yoga.

And when it comes to Big finish, doing it, Colin and Nicola instead play it really warmly and cheekily because they're just like, we don't have someone up in the box now saying, no, be nastier, be nastier, be nastier.

So, Yeah, I think the only way the original season 23 would have been a departure is if Colin and Nicola put their foot down.

And I'm not blaming them for that in this instance because really that's not an actor's job.

I think it's hard too when you've got a production team who's been there and know the show and you're coming in. you know, you can't really own it for a certain length of time.

[23:06]

I've discussed this back in the when we did the twin dilemma.

Um, It's it's the Eric Sabre J and T combo.

And I think Eric became script editor far too soon.

You know, I think he needed to be mentored much like Bob Holmes was mentored by Terrence Dix with a different script editor, and then when he's got a clear idea of how to construct stories and what he wants to do, then come in.

You know, he's come in and he's had to rescue various scripts at times, and I think done a competent job, but his vision of the show, and and that whole, where he's taking it, and, and I just think the whole insular approach back on the history without the ideas is symptomatic of the fact that he needed.

He made it Christopher H bid me to be there for 3 years.

And that decision comes down to who.

John Nathan Turner, who could have supported him, but John, of course, you know, is afraid of writers and he loves the show, but at the same time, his own insecurities have forced a series of decisions.

Yeah, there's an increasing number of people who won't direct for him anymore or who won't write for him anymore.

It was the thing that in the slip back novelisation in Eric Saywood's sort of grotesque parody portrait of John Nathan Turner, where it's only kind of old hacks who are prepared to write scripts or direct, and anyone sort of inventive and interesting, won't be employed anymore.

[24:24]

And that isn't really, say, it's fold, that is down to J and T. I think the say would problem is, the, Not necessarily that he's mining the history of the show.

Um, I think JNT's doing that a bit.

I think he's spending a lot of time at American conventions and getting a lot of adulation from people who, uh, you know, Like the Doctor Who Monster book.

So he's pandering to fans.

He doesn't really understand what the show should be doing.

No.

And I think the problem that Saywood brings to the table is a kind of cynicism where he thinks that the doctor being heroic is kind of naive and not something that belongs on modern television.

And so he sidelines the doctor or undermines him all the way back from Pete, you know, in earth shock and resurrection of the Daleks.

And if you compare it, Russell T. Davies, I think. is capable of really great cynicism and negativity and there's a kind of abyss behind his work.

[25:32]

Look at midnight and how awful all the people are on that bus.

United bus lines.

Sorry.

Well, look at Love and Monsters, where he creates a whole heap of really likeable characters and then just kills them all in this sort of brutal way.

Or if you look at, I think it's episode 6 of cucumber, which is one of the darkest things I've ever seen on television.

Russell is capable of great cynicism.

But he knows what the show is for and what a family audience wants.

And he creates a positive role model in the doctor who inspires people to be better.

He wants to make the show fun.

He's aware that there's a family audience, so he can't rely too heavily on space corridors that needs to be grounded in reality.

All of those are things that say would lax.

And so his cynicism goes unchecked, I think.

And I think it's spoiling the program at this point.

Yeah, it needs to change.

Like I'm not going to deny that in any way, shape, or form.

[26:33]

I think I think the lack of the lack of current earth stories is a real problem.

And I would have loved to have seen more of that, you know, with this doctor.

It's too many space corridor spaceships, alien planets.

And this is why I think the coat is a problem, but not in the way people think it is.

You know, we've said with the coat.

That, It would look weird on modern day earth and what have you.

I think maybe the production team thought that, so they're like, let's not put it on modern day earth, and you think, no, Doctor Who is about breaking stories.

You put him on earth and everyone says to him, what's with the coat?

and he says, what do you mean?

That's the joke, if you like.

And that is why this doctor is good for children because the doctor doesn't have a problem with the coat.

You know, you there, villain, you have a problem with the coat.

Well, that's not his problem.

It's not.

There's nothing wrong with someone wearing something colourful.

So, I think they kind of limit themselves unnecessarily, and if they had have had Mondeurf Day stories.

[27:37]

They could have had fun with that limiting, with that limiting factor.

I mean, you do get rid of the code in like the 2 doctors, like, you know, it's not around.

Yeah, and it looks, I think that outfit looks pretty good.

I actually think the coat works really well on Big Finish, obviously partly because you don't have to look at it.

But they do make jokes about the code.

Exactly.

It does actually play a role.

This is where I kind of think John Nathan Turner's vision of the program is a real problem because he sees the doctor in a costume and it's so rigid and you can't change it.

And one of the things, I really love the design of the code. right?

And I think in season 22 for me, it, I find that it generally does work.

By the time you get to 23, it should not be there.

I think it's a mistake, okay?

Bottom line is in the long term, it is a mistake.

If there was a different producer coming in, or John had a different, like, idea of what the doctor actually is and who he actually is, we wouldn't have had that coat for 23.

You look at Tom and John.

Yeah, they have the same basic outline, but it changes every year. here.

[28:38]

It's rigidly a costume, you know?

And not only that, they had to remake it, and they remade it exactly the same.

You know, still have it as patchwork, but have some complementary colours on there.

Because of course, famously it was made to entirely clash with itself.

It just needs to be like that blue version that they've done on the internet.

It just needs to be.

It's too unreal.

And to me, it also goes down to the opening credits, which, you know, they put all the colour in, but it's, it's, you know, it's just a rehash of paint, right?

Which, you know, it should have been distinctive and their own, own it, right?

And in season 23, you do get the new theme, but it doesn't work with the current titles because you're used to the Peter Howell version.

Yeah.

I think there is a possible justification for just rehashing Peter's visuals, which is the size of the show in America.

So, in a way, that look of titles was becoming synonymous with Doctor Who.

[29:40]

So it's like, rather than create something entirely new, we've got to keep the brand, because JNT was very conscious of branding, which is part of the reason for the costume idea as well.

It doesn't quite come off, but I think I can see the rationale there.

Of course, they were talking about doing a new title sequence for him for trial and didn't because of the 8000 motion control shot of the trial space station, which don't give me wrong.

It looks great.

But the problem is, it kind of highlights the cheapness of everything else.

And I suppose, you know, this era is a bit of an example of an era of extremes.

You know, we get a nice, fun, like fluffy romp, like mark of the Rani, and then a few weeks later, people are eating their own relatives as protein supplements, you know.

Yeah.

Oh, this era frustrates me so much because there is so much missed opportunity here.

And you know, when Colin early on was giving interviews and talking about how he envisioned the character developing over 8 years.

[30:44]

You can see him doing it on screen when you know that and it's, It's not just sad from a point of view of he got fired from a job he really loved.

It's sad from a point of view of we didn't get to experience that.

And I love Sylvester McCoy's doctor.

When you guys earlier were talking about the fact that, you know, watching live, you came to it with Tom and John and then you came into Pete and Europe left a bit disappointed by him.

But yeah, now Colin is the guy.

The thing is, for me, as a kid, I had John, Tom, Pete, Colin, all in a mix, all on rotation.

For me, it's Sylvester McCoy who was, you know, he's coming in. hes my doctor.

Not that I was dissatisfied with any of the others, but I can get what you're saying about Colin, and especially then, if you're looking at that, and having that feeling, and then all of a sudden he disappoints you in some way, that's even more, that's even more hurtful.

Do you believe that Colin should have been let go at the end of season 23?

Or is that a useless question?

[31:46]

I think he was the fall guy.

I don't think it was his fault.

And so he was just someone visible to kind of take the blame.

He was sort of a scapegoat.

I do think that the show I do think that his doctor was misconceived and his departure from the program gave them a chance to rethink.

And I think they did take that chance.

I don't think they just sort of put Sylvester McCoy in a pullover and pointed him at the direction of studio one and said, go off and do your thing.

I think that they did think about, um, what he was going to be like as the doctor.

Um, and I think the only reason that happened isn't because it was sort of Esther McCoy, it's because Andrew Carmel came in.

And so the real issue was the creative team.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with you there.

It's possible to imagine a change of creative team that goes back to the drawing board and decides what it is that works and doesn't work about Colin's doctor and makes it work.

[32:54]

Um, and I think that that would have been possible.

Yeah.

I agree with everything that you've just said, you know, based on his performance in season 23 and addressing issues that have been discussed.

He is the full guy, and, you know, behind the scenes, they chose not to replace the creative team when they could have, they chose to keep it off the air for 18 months.

You know, which, It's already in the 1980s only on air for 12 weeks, 13 weeks a year.

It's less identifiable.

They're choosing to put it out there that it's in trouble, you know, so this is, you know, I'm talking about Jonathan Powell and Michael Gray, who don't like the show. they not supporting it.

Yeah.

And you can see.

Um, I understand like, you know, at the end of this season.

They're not supporting the show.

If they turned around and tried to axe the show.

People would go, well, why don't you get rid of the doctor?

[33:55]

You know?

Because if you look at the history of the show, in terms of pure ratings.

Ratings this year are down by 2.2 million, right?

If you go back to Billy Hartnell, for example, after the Daleks Master Plan, which is around 9 million, his ratings go down into the gutter by the end of that season, but behind the scenes, they're putting in place new companions, new production team, they're thinking about the future of the show, Hartnell's going to be asked to leave, we're thinking about a new actor.

And, you know, Patrick Chowton will come in and the ratings will go up, you know, to 7.5 to 8.5 million.

And if you keep looking at the patterns throughout the history of the show, you know, at the end of the trout era, the ratings are down again, but there's a new production team, a new actor coming in.

The BBC supported even after John's 1st season.

Like at the end of that it does trail off, but then in the 2nd season, they're tweaking it.

They're putting it in a later time slot, it's suddenly in the top 20.

They're supporting it behind the scenes.

And then the 70s, well, it's a foregone conclusion.

And then when it's perceived that the production values are not good like in season 17, they've got a new team coming in or and although Tom's ratings in his last season are a disaster.

[35:05]

He's leaving this, a new doctor coming in, the ratings go back up from 5000000 to 9 to 10 million. like there's all these patterns.

So on the surface of things, certainly, you could say, Jonathan Power easily says, well, you know, we brought it back.

It's got less ratings, you know, but they've done nothing behind the scenes to really support the show, like as far as I'm concerned.

And so no one is going to tune back into the show next year if they discover that we have a new script, their data. because no one can see that.

But if you can Colin and replace him.

That's a view a visible change in the program.

Yeah.

And so maybe...

Well, I mean, as I said, after every new doctor, you get a spike of interest.

Even Colin, you know, the 8.900000 at the beginning of season 22.

Like people have realised that there's a new doctor for one week.

There is a visible spike.

But in in axiom and bringing in somebody new, they're obviously undermining John Nathan Turner even more.

And the other thing they do.

[36:06]

Is they move the show against Coronation Street.

Yeah. which is getting 25 to 30000000 viewers.

The opposition's only getting 3 to 4.

So what's the notice operandi?

New doctor comes in. might get 5 million.

If it drops down to four, That's lower than this season, right?

Bye bye.

We've tried to rescue it with a new doctor.

But of course, as I mentioned, in our trial of a time lord.

Every new story in the Sylvester McCoy era gets like, you know, 5.one, then 5.2 and 5.3 and 5.5 at the beginning of every story.

There is a visible new story.

And because you can then next year, compare Doctor Who to other shows in that slot. getting a 1000000 viewers more.

Yeah.

Anecdotally, I know quite a few people who say that at the end of twin dilemma or after one of Attack of the Cybermen, they stopped watching Doctor Who, they didn't like the new doctor.

But, The ratings, you know, you had that spike at the beginning of 22, and then they settle in the high 6s, low 7s, which isn't that bad compared to Davison, who was getting high 7s, low 8s.

[37:14]

When the show is cancelled slash put on hiatus, because it was cancelled 1st and then they backpedalled.

Why did they backpedal because of massive fan reaction?

There are individuals and there are a lot of individuals who stopped watching because they didn't like Colin Baker, but the important thing is, that was not the majority of the audience, which is the picture we are painted now, when we discuss the hiatus.

And when we discussed the cancellation, there's this fan wisdom that everyone hated Colin Baker.

And it's like, okay, no, if you consider the average audience of the last Davidson season to the average audience of the 1st Colin Baker season, 18th of the audience hate a Colin Baker, just over 10%.

And that's being generous, you know, there might just be people who couldn't tune in for whatever reason, but if we assume that everyone who stopped watching stopped watching because of Colin Baker, That's what, 12.5% of the audience didn't like him.

It's significant, but it's not disastrous, and the ratings are still good.

[38:17]

Ratings generally go down anyway too.

You have to control for the fact that, you know, over the years, there's more kinds of media and things like that.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, you know, he had stiff competition with with the A team.

You know, it was like Buck Rogers back in season 18.

Or Batman or Batman at the controls.

Um, you fast forward 2 years to where they fire Colin to get someone else in.

And I puzzled for years over that.

It's like, you know what?

They did everything you asked.

The ratings while lower.

Were steady.

There was good audience appreciation figures.

For the trial.

There were pretty decent reviews for it.

Why change?

The star without changing the producer.

Why not just cancel the show?

And I think the whole reason we get Solister McCoy, it's not because the BBC suddenly care about the show.

[39:19]

It's not because the BBC want people tuning in because they put it up against Coronation Street.

It's so, in their minds, they're like, it will continue to go down, the ratings will continue to go down.

We will be able to justify cancelling it without getting a massive backlash again.

Yes.

It's become a point scoring exercise now, from the people on the top floor.

And the last thing they expect to happen.

Is this script editor to come in, and to get the job by saying, in the interview, when asked the question, what do you want to do with Doctor Who?

Andrew Cartmel responds with, I want to bring down the government.

They're not expecting. not expecting anyone to care about the show.

Yeah.

They're not expecting anyone who works on it to care about it because they've just seen for 2 years that the 2 people in charge are making it because it's because it's still being made.

And you know what?

I am grateful.

That JNT and Eric Saywood were still making Doctor Who for those 2 years.

I still enjoy it.

But no one at the BBC really understands.

[40:19]

What Doctor Who is meant to be as you keep saying, Nathan.

They just view it as this cash cow, and in 3 years, they're going to figure out they can make just as much money from it without spending anything on it.

It's funny, isn't it, that when they do finally cancel it after season 26, that they don't cancel it.

There's no there's just no announcement.

Yeah, a new season doesn't come back and we have a couple of years where it's at a time where the BBC is increasingly outsourcing and doing much less in-house, and so there would be all these rumours about independent production teams taking it up and stuff.

And eventually that bubbles along for so long that, you know, eventually we realise it's not coming back, but there's never the outcry.

Um, that we had, you know, at the at the cancellation at the end of season 22.

I think it's, it's ironic that, you know, at the end of 24, Michael Gray is gone, to show, despite being put in a death slot and visibly with, you know, changing the star of it, it actually outperforms it and they, you know, they're left with, well, if we cancel it now, people will be going, but it's doing, it's doing good in this slot, you know?

[41:29]

And then you've got season 25, you've got the whole 25 year thing that you can use as publicity and that sort of thing.

So throughout all of these events that have happened over the last 2 years, et cetera.

Funnily enough, the show keeps soldiering on to, it's going to get 25 years, you know?

Yeah.

Oh, that's been really quite intense.

I think we need to lighten things up with the sub, Mario, void. we do that now?

think so.

All right, so I'm going to go with Nathan.

Here's your snog, Mario Void.

Catomara.

Jacqueline Pierce.

Eleanor Braun.

Yes.

Okay, the usual stog Mary boy.

Oh my god.

I don't want to avoid any one of those.

Who would I avoid?

I think I would have to avoid Kate O'Mara because I'm allergic to cats.

And she has a little she had a little cat sanctuary or something like that, didn't she?

[42:30]

Or is that just been absolutely fabulous?

Cat's on crack.

Yeah, cats on crack.

Yeah.

So I'd have to avoid her, but it would be, I'd feel bad about that because she is fabulous, particularly next year when she's dressed as Bonnie Langford, which I just absolutely adore.

Um, uh, so Jacqueline Pierce has been a lifelong love of mine, uh, she's the only person that I've ever cosplayed as uh, at a convention.

I dressed as president and supreme commander of the Terran Federation Serverland.

Um, So I think I'd have to marry her so that I could get sort of, you know, access to sort of fashion tips and and all of that sort of thing.

Eleanor Braun.

I can't remember who I said my favourite guest star of the season is, but I'm going to suddenly say that it's her.

So I think, uh, you know, a torrid 15 minutes of passion with uh, Eleanor Braun or something that I wouldn't regret, uh, so uh, that's my answer.

[43:32]

Excellent.

Brendan.

I've been really horrible to you today.

This is terrible.

Okay.

Paul Darrow.

Brian Blessed.

And Martin Jarvis.

Oh, actually, that's not too bad at all.

Look, I think I'd have to avoid Paul Darrow because we'd just try to act to each other and I don't need the competition.

I think I'd snog Brian Blessed.

Because seriously, if you look at Brian Blessed in the 60s in the Avengers, and even in Mind War, Brian Blessed's pretty hot, but I don't think I could live with all that noise.

So, you know, yeah, Toro affair with Brian Blessett and Mary Martin Jarvis, he's lovely.

He's married to Rosalind Dares, you know.

They both have exquisite tastes.

So yeah, I think I'd have to marry my Martin Jarvis in a in like a 3 way marriage thing.

I have no desire to usurper.

Uh, Snogg, Brian Blessed, Mary Martin, Jarvis avoid Paul Darrow.

Right.

Excellent.

Well, here's my snog barrier void.

[44:32]

Yes, I've skewed this people.

Jason Connery.

Luke?

Gary Katie.

Dibber.

Oh, fire.

So I'm avoiding Jason Connery.

Because he's just terribly wooden.

I'm snogging Luke.

Yep, before the tree episode.

When I'm marrying Dipper.

That's a man.

Enough said, and he's funny.

I think I just ended that slightly.

I think I, um, I think I'd snog Deborah and marry Luke just because, um, you know, Luke, with, without the whole tree episode.

So let's just write that out of Canon.

But also, you know, Dibba being a convicted criminal.

No, I just want kind of 15 minutes and a cup with him rather than, you know, be looking over my shoulder every day of married life.

You could have like lovely picnics under Luke. couldn't you?

Once he turned into a tree.

You know, I think that would be all right.

Has he provide you with oxygen and shade?

[45:34]

Has anyone else read the book, sister Kate?

There's a scene in that involving a tree.

Anyway, moving on.

So we talk about top 3 stories and the opposite, the least favourite.

Three stories.

So let's go with the least favourite, your bottom 3 if you have to choose.

I can always start if you'd like me to.

Yeah, go on.

Timelash?

Twin dilemma.

And trial of a Time Lord.

All right, that's pretty good.

Mine would be pretty similar.

I don't think time lash is very good.

I hate twin dilemma. one of my very bottom stories.

You had it top of your bottom 10, I think, at one point, Todd.

Yeah, it's still there.

Yeah.

So I think Toon Dilemma's terrible.

I think timelashes sort of, you know, it's got some things going for it, but it's sort of basically incompetent.

I think that vengeance on Varos is massively overrated, but um, it's not bad enough for me to want to put it in the bottom three.

[46:45]

I'm sorry, I'm thinking maybe Attack of the Cybermen comes in as one of my bottom three.

Brendan.

The twin dilemma for reasons we've already discussed.

The 2 doctors, as I said at the time, I just think it's far too long and I think losing the New Orleans stuff without something as good to replace it in the Spain stuff just means, you know, we're running around.

Well, they're still very pretty part of Severe, but as some friend of the podcast, Simon Moore has told us.

It's not even the pretty bit of Seville.

And then for my 3rd slot, look, it's between time lash and mind warp.

And okay, so the case for time lash is it's pretty boring.

It's badly executed, the case for mind warp is, it's got a horrible ending, but the thing is mind warp is still very well directed.

It's well written and it's well performed, whereas Timelash has Vina.

Um, so I think it has to be time lash, even though out of those three.

I'm very happy to rewatch Time Lash and still very much enjoy it, whereas 2 doctors, I derive little enjoyment from and the twin dilemma, I derive almost no enjoyment from.

[47:55]

So, yeah, twin dilemma, the 2 doctors, and time lash.

All right.

So let's go with the other end of the spectrum, the 3 that you enjoy the most.

So I would say the 2 doctors is the best Colin Baker story.

Because, you know, it's Bob Holmes and it's, I actually quite like the length.

It's got some good location work and it has Jacqueline Pierce in it.

I would say, Revelation of the Daleks come second.

I think it's well-directed and it's say it's best script.

It's riffing on something, uh, that's pretty good and it has Eleanor Braun in it.

Yes, okay.

Um, and...

I really struggled to find a 3rd one.

Possibly.

Hmm.

I can see why people like.

[48:55]

I'm going to say, I'm going to say terror of the fur points.

Because I don't think it's very good, but I think it is kind of enjoyable and it's straightforwardly doing something.

And, you know, as we said in, uh, Mark of the Rani, uh, it gets the doctor to be doctor-ish and to kind of solve the problem in an ingenious way and things.

It's marred by the fact of the trial, obviously.

And it's just fun and camp and silly as well, I think.

And it has Janet in it.

Good.

Right.

My top three, Mark of the Rani.

Because there's a lightness of touch to it.

Cato Mar is great.

Despite the fact that Anthony only gets the thing to do that I think is the main problem with the master and he's just there to kill the doctor, he puts in a very good performance as well.

Colin and Nicola are a great guest caster, all good, much like terror the vervoids, it's pretty clear what it's doing.

Yeah, it's not convoluted at all.

[49:55]

I would then say attack of the cybermen.

I think, again, that despite all the continuity and the cyberman's plan, it's pretty straightforward, the info dumps, when they do come over with quickly, they're light and they tell you exactly what you need to know.

There's some good characterisation of the cryons.

They're not just the bliz-bloss monsters.

We get a bit of more complex characterisation with Lytton and the, you know, the idea that a villain isn't necessarily just someone who's evil.

I also would love the bit at the end where the doctor says, oh, you know, maybe I need to change.

It's a pity that was never really acted upon overtly.

And of course, I then have to say terror of the vervoids, you know, I have to agree with you, Nathan.

It's a simple idea.

It's done well. well.

It's got a great guest cast.

The trial scenes.

But thankfully they don't go on too long and we just get back to the plot.

Bonnie Langford is a breath of fresh air and we get a great new relationship between her as Mel and Colin as the doctor.

[51:00]

It makes you feel bright for the future of the show.

You know, if you didn't know that we were only going to see them together for 6 episodes.

You go, yeah, I can watch these 2 for a long time.

Uh, yeah, so, what was that?

That was Mark the Rani, Attack of the Cybermen and Tear of the Vivoids.

All right, my top 3 are in no particular order.

Attack of the Sidemen, which I ideally love, the 2 doctors, which I think is super Revelation, the Daleks, which I just thoroughly enjoy.

And if I could edit out all the trial scenes from Mysterious Planet, it would be in contention, but it's not so beautiful.

It's not.

Yeah.

So there you go.

In terms of guest stars or villains or monsters, whom has been your favourite in this particular here of the show.

Nathan, I'm looking at you and you're going to say, Servian, Jacqueline Pierce, yes?

No, I, I, you know, I think she's pretty good, but she's doing her usual thing.

I do think Eleanor Braun is really terrific.

[52:01]

So I guess it's her.

I think Martin Jarvis is good, but maybe not for the reasons that people think.

I quite like Michael Jason as the valleyard.

He does a good job.

Even though he kind of turns into a sort of moustache twirling villain at the end.

As for villains, I think that Sill is really good.

I think he's by far the best thing in both of the stories that he's in.

I'm pretty much agreeing with you.

All of those.

I think you only get Sil as a sort of new villain in the Colin Baker era.

I guess you could count Drathro.

And the Rani.

Oh, the Rani?

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

K Tamara.

Well, I prefer this version of the Rani. and I think it's a better performance.

So, yeah, so definitely Cademara, Serani, I think it's fantastic.

Eleanor Braun's great.

I like Jacqueline Pierce.

I know it's a shtick, but I think it's really wonderful.

Joan Sims.

I just love as Katrika.

One of my reasons for really loving that story.

[53:03]

You've pinpointed Michael, Jason.

I think Linda Bellium brings a lot of empathy to that particular thankless task of a role.

Um, And a hat.

A lovely hat.

I can't go past Edgeworth. back in the twin dilemma because I think it's a lovely performance, um, in spite of everything else.

Every story, with one exception, has really strong lead guest cast, and that one exception, of course, is um, Jeanette Crowley, as Vina.

She's just bloody awful.

Um, the, the actress who plays cats is much better.

She needs to work on her projection a bit, but she's sympathetic and believable in that role.

So I mean, I wouldn't say she's my favourite of era, but I do want to point that out because I think she gets overshadowed a bit by how rubbish Vina is.

[54:03]

Yeah, we've got, Morris Denim giving a great performance in a really sub-parscript.

We've got Maurice Colburn and Brian Glover.

Oh, yeah.

In Attack of the Sidement?

Getting a bit rough, is it?

Yeah.

We've got the Cryons, especially Flast, who's locked up with the doctor just flirting with the outrageously.

And, you know, Doctor Who doesn't often show that demonstrations of sexuality or sensuality, let alone from an alien character.

And it's just a nice little character moment.

Martin Jarvis, of course, Nabil Shabin.

If I had to pick just one person, as much as I love K Tomara, I would pick Nabil Shabin because not only does he create an interesting character whom you like despite the fact he's a horrible person.

When he comes back, he builds on that and everything you loved about him the 1st time is back even more the 2nd time with even more humour, like that line we singled out of, I only wish you'd found a more attractive body, which is a great falling action moment because we've had this horrible thing we know Perry's dead and suddenly we cut to this joke and for once because this era does that quite a bit.

[55:23]

It'll try to undercut something horrible with joke.

I think this is the only time it really, really strongly works.

Of course, you've got Cato Mara, and you've got the cast playing George Stevenson, Lord Ravensworth, you've got Luke played by Gary Katie, who are all good in Mark of the Rani.

The guest cast are all brilliant in the 2 doctors, even the 2 sontarians, their makeup, their masks doesn't do them justice, but that whole bit about the loneliness of command, and I think I've made a tactical error and all that.

That's all great.

And Astari.

I forgot about him.

Yeah, he's really good.

Actually, no one's mentioned Herbert as well.

Oh, I think it's a great performance.

Yeah.

Yeah, Herbert and Robert Ashby is the Borad.

Really great voice.

Paul Darrow is certainly memorable.

I like Vina.

I'm just going to say that people...

Is she is?

I really do like her.

I think she found Katerina's stash of Xanax somewhere in the dressing room and that accounts for it.

Let's not forget about the lovely Janet in...

[56:25]

Yeah, Land of Palfrey.

She's really great.

All of the guest cast in Revelation are good.

You know, and we discussed at the time, some people don't like Jenny Thomasson, but we all love her and we just...

We totally get the aggression and the repression that's going on with that character.

And Clive Swift.

Like, I forgot. about him too.

There's actually a lot of really good guest cast in here.

And oh, I forgot to mention a few weeks ago when we were doing the ultimate foe, of course.

Jeffrey Hughes turns up in the 2nd of 3 guest spots by keeping up appearances actors.

Yeah, of an annual tradition.

Yep, Michael Jason, Linda Bellingham, uh, on a Blackman.

Uh, Joan Sims, Tom Chadbon, Roger Breeley, Patrick Reicart.

We have possibly, the best array of guest cast actors.

Consistently appearing in Doctor Who.

It's kind of J and T's strength, isn't it?

[57:27]

Like getting big names to agree to appear on the program.

We didn't go through this list with Pete, did we?

No, there are great guest characters and big names, I think, in pizza era.

But not necessarily in every story.

And unlike Pete's era, we don't really have a Beryl Reed style example here where we go, oh no, that's woefully miscast, even though none of us think they're all wolves.

Okay.

Even though only Todd thinks, Beryl Reed, no, no, no.

No, I'm talking about the father and his cousin in between dilemma.

Oh, yeah.

No, I won't talk for obeying it.

And...

Oh, yeah, but they're not big names. nobody cares about them.

Yes, it's correct.

That is correct.

But yet, they've they've really gone to town.

It's kind of weird because we've talked about how, in a way, they didn't care about, they cared about making a show. with big names that they could put on the cover of the radio times.

And I don't think Colin even got a radio times covered at any point.

But they care enough to get these big names in.

And contrary to expectations. like we discussed with Joan Sims, Joan Sims isn't playing it like a carry-on.

[58:32]

Joan Sims is playing it like, no, I am a 70 year old leader of a tribe, and I have seen some stuff go down.

I'm not an idiot.

I may be uneducated, but I'm not an idiot, and she plays it seriously, and as a result, you believe in that world.

I mean, it's an era where the right hand does not know what the left is doing.

But yet, such strong guest cast.

My prime pick is Nabil Shabin, because he appears twice.

And Every time you see him, and I mean from scene to scene, he just builds and I mean, perhaps it is the kind of dedication to performance that can only come from someone who has experienced hardship and discrimination in his chosen profession of wanting to be an actor and having difficulty finding roles because people don't want to hire a disabled actor.

And On the one hand, disabled advocates may look at that performance and go, oh, they've customers a villain.

[59:36]

Whereas his attitude was to create a character and to kind of go, right, if I need to be the big scary monster, I'm going to be the scariest monster.

I'm going to turn something like laughing into something horrible.

And I just hear other stories about Nabil Shabin acting in other productions.

He was in.

He was in an audio visual as one of Guy Fawkes gang in the gun, in the gun, powder plot, and there's a scene where he's either being tortured or he's torturing someone.

And he said to them, how are we going to achieve this?

And they say, oh, well, Nabil, you know, we, um, we can do post-production now and we can add sound effects on later.

And he said, well, what does it sound like?

They said, oh, it sounds like metal clanging together and rubbing together.

And when it came time to record the scene, he's recording it in his wheelchair, he started ripping bits off his wheelchair and clanging them together to make the torture implements.

And they went, that's perfect.

We'll keep that in.

That's the kind of actor Nabil Shabin is.

And as I say, I wonder if that kind of ingenuity and that kind of interiority and characterisation comes from the fact that he would have been told no so many times.

[1:00:46]

So when he gets a role.

He says, I'm going to show you what kind of actor I am.

For me, it goes beyond just respecting that he plays his role.

It's respecting his respect.

For what he's doing.

You touched on Big finish audios in in that, what you've just said, and we've discussed that in a previous our previous podcast.

For people out there who perhaps don't particularly warm to this era, I think that for me, The 6 doctor audios are generally the best. certainly the ones with Bonnie Langford, as Mel, I think, are really well written, the ones with Evelyn, I think, generally are great.

Collins performance is wonderful throughout them compared to all the other doctors.

That's just me.

Um, I also like the stuff with flip and spoiler alert, Jamie and Zoe.

Um, and so, um, Yeah, so if you don't particularly like this era, but you are into the book 2 audios, I just think that there are so many good quality, Colin Baker ones because Big Finish really wanted to.

[1:01:52]

And particularly Gary Russell at the beginning, really give Colin material worthy.

Yeah, I mean, for our big finish special, last week, there, there was one play I was going to recommend and I didn't, and that is arrangements for war, which is a 6th doctor in the heat.

And the main reason I didn't recommend that is it, you know, it's a brilliant play.

Um, but it's kind of the end of a character arc for them, not even a story arc, but a character arc of the development of their relationship.

So you really need to have heard the stories leading up to it.

But that's the thing.

If I was going to recommend one, I'd say, right, go to the big finished page where you can now sort by character, sort by evil and put them in chronological order.

And at the very least, go with everything from her 1st appearance in the marrying conspiracy through to arrangements for war and see what Colin Baker is capable of doing in the role of this doctor.

[1:02:54]

And what I find amazing is he has changed his characterisation in those so much because he, when they started, what, 1999, he'd had almost 15 years of people telling him what was wrong with his character or, you know, at least in their interpretation.

And what I find interesting about Colin.

You know, we've joked a bit about him like when he stopped doing interviews for Doctor Who magazine because the twin dilemma came at the bottom of their poll.

Well, I think it's because he came at the bottom of their pole as well.

But at the same time, you know, when he talks about his era now, he'll say things like, um, in my defence, the best thing about the code was I was wearing it, looking out instead of having to look at it.

He is incredibly self-aware of the criticisms of his era and has sought to redress them not only for himself, but for the fans.

And despite the fact he changes his character for those audios, it is still recognisably the same character.

[1:03:54]

And when he records a story with Nicola Bryant, he plays it in a different way than when he records a story with Bonnie Langford or with Maggie Stables, who plays evil and he's aware of the character's chronology and development.

So if you listen to, I think, Chronologically speaking, his earliest story in the Big Finnish Canon is either Davros or Year of the Pig, which is said in season 22, He plays the character a lot more abrasively.

Compared to we're in our, which you recommended a few weeks ago, Todd, or the marrying conspiracy where he 1st meets Evelyn.

Nathan and I were talking about the marrying conspiracy earlier today off mic.

And he said, well, actually, you can say that.

I think that Big Finish is free to experiment because they don't have to have a TV audience that they're appealing to.

And so having Evelyn, who's older.

Um, is great and something that we've never seen on the show, but she's someone that Colin can't bully.

[1:04:55]

You know, she's older, like older than Colin in the sense that, you know, she she looks older than him, you know, if she seems older.

And so she won't wear his crap, you know, and it's nice, you know, I think they have a good relationship.

I mean, you said that he attempts to kind of be mean to her in the Marion conspiracy and she kind of slaps it down. exactly.

I think she bribes him with cake.

And that's the, they, they also have this master stroker.

They introduce Evelyn who loves baking chocolate cake.

And at the beginning of the wrong doctors, which starts with a pre-credit scene where Evelyn's just left, and the doctor realises that now he now he has to go meet Mel for the 1st time.

It's implied that the reason he's larger when he meets Mel is because he's just spent 5 years travelling with Evelyn having a chocolate cake every day.

Humour.

[1:05:55]

But also fans, you know, we need to invent a reason that the 6th doctor got a bit fat.

Very true.

Very true.

We're almost leaving this era into the next.

And I always ask the question, you know, what are your thoughts at the current time of the forthcoming doctor or era and what perhaps you hope to get out of the experience of of watching the era?

I think that this is the 1st injection of new creative kind of lifeblood into the show.

Um, and, you know, while Eric Saywood had difficulty finding new writers.

Andrew Carmel doesn't, and he finds a whole stable of new writers.

And the show starts to be more grounded.

There's more things set on earth.

I think Earth in the recent past becomes a place that it goes.

It starts to ditch the continuity staff.

So, uh, next season has the Rani and Sablom glitz.

Um, but the Rani is a kind of a holdover from the Colin Baker, era in season 24, um, and Glitz doesn't really overbalance the story that he finds himself in.

[1:07:07]

And you know, it doesn't, it doesn't work immediately.

I think it doesn't start working immediately.

Um, but, There is a freshness to it. visually.

And it starts doing things that it hasn't done before or hasn't done for a long time.

And so it comes as a bit of a relief.

And then when I'm expecting, I think that seasons 25 and 26 are as good as anything that the program's done, and there are some really extraordinary stories in there.

And, you know, because no one cares about it.

It's free to be sophisticated and subversive and stuff like that.

Hmm.

I'm going to try to answer this question as if it's December 1986, and I've just finished watching Trial of a Time Lord, and what do I want for the future?

Um, Ice Warriors.

Well, actually, I'm thinking that something I've really enjoyed about trial is that.

[1:08:07]

Although we've had time lords, et cetera.

For the main plots we've had, there hasn't been a massive reliance on, you know, bringing back the cybermen to try and negate the events of these 2 stories from the 1960s, while the Daleks are building a food plant, and other Daleks turn up, and are mean to them, and someone shoots off someone else's hand.

So I kind of just want stories that work on their own without me having to know.

A previous story I watched years ago.

I'm liking the emphasis on character relationships and humour.

I'm hoping that continues.

I'm liking the diverse ideas and the diverse settings, so I'm hoping we get more diversity in that regard.

And yeah, it the show is feeling fun again.

The last 2 seasons before this one, so the last season of Davidson, the 1st season of Colin Baker, I felt, with the increased level of violence, that why, why is anyone still travelling?

[1:09:09]

on this show where all these horrible things happen.

You know, Tegan kind of mentioned it and the doctor says I must change my ways and then he doesn't.

Whereas in this season, even though there has been certainly violence visited upon Perry.

Mainly, except for that 10 minutes at the end of that story, it has been more fun like it used to be during, well, during the 60s, during the 70s, during the beginning of Peter Davidson.

So I'm hoping that fun continues.

So yeah, more fun, less reliance on the history.

And more, yeah, more character growth would be what I was hoping for in the future.

And not another 14 episode story.

Well, agreed there.

Well, listen, this is my last regular podcast until survival.

I will be back doing a couple of commentaries, I'm sure, in between time.

So I'm not trying to avoid this era.

I really think shows like remembrance of the Daleks, 3 quarters of great show in the galaxy, having this patrol curse of fenneric, are some of the best Doctor Who's of all time.

[1:10:16]

And those fighters even better than that.

And I, and I really enjoy despite problems.

Silver Nemesis and Battlefield.

So the last 8 stories of Doctor Who.

In the JNT era under Andrew Carpenter, I like the 1st 8 stories of Doctor Who under JNT and Christopher H.

Bidmead.

Blockbus.

Sorry.

I think there's a lot of really great stuff going on.

And it goes back to what you're saying, Nathan, about next year, is that there is a new approach and a freshness and there's, there's, there's a goal and a target, and I think they miss it a lot next year.

But you have to miss something in order to get it and they get it.

I used to vilify season 24 to the absolute hilt.

And my attitude to it has changed quite a lot over the years.

I still think there are huge problems in what appears on screen.

But there are aspects to it that I do like.

I like Bellage.

I like Burton, the camp leader in Dodger Banner. one of my favourite characters of all time.

[1:11:16]

Um, And I like Tabby and Tilda.

And I think that script and that book, uh, Paradise Towers is one of the freshest, uh, stories ever.

But not what appears on screen.

And my overriding feeling, From the time, is that, up to this point over the last 2 years of the show, my parents really tried to stop me watching Doctor Who, stopped me buying Doctor Who, a magazine subscription from the news agency.

They knew what would happen.

They knew that you would end up guesting on a long-running podcasting program. sometime in the future and they were trying to save you from it.

Well, what happened in this season?

My father actually sat down with me in one of the early episodes of the season to try and bond with me, right?

And I sat there embarrassed by what I was seeing on screen and I turned to my father and I said, this isn't very good.

You don't have to watch it with me.

And that's the overwhelming feeling.

Emotion that I get when I watch the 1st 3 stories of this season, and I have to fight against that, right?

[1:12:20]

And you've seen me fight against it.

Nathan, you've mentioned a number of times that you've seen me enjoy, um, Jolton the Man, and I'm not going to deny that the last time I watched it, I liked it a lot more than I'd ever liked it before.

And it's this, this change behind the scenes with Andrew and a freshness of approach and something new that opens it up.

You know, I don't want another 14 episode season where everything seems to be continuity in upon itself, you need that freshness.

So the biggest challenge for me is next year to see, what do I really like?

What do I think of Sylvester next year?

I've never considered him to be my favourite doctor like at times, I've considered Patrick or John or Tom or Colin.

But I'm really hoping that when I do sit down and watch next season, and this is the 1st time I have to say this is that I actually haven't watched ahead.

Right?

Every other time we've been doing these podcasts, I'm usually half a season to a season ahead, but this time I just, I just stopped and I just, I can't do it.

I've got to be in the right frame of mind to watch what happens next.

I'm hoping by what you guys say, because I'm sure you're going to enjoy it much more than what I do, but will it change my opinion, you know?

[1:13:27]

and I think you have to be open to that.

So yeah, so I'm looking forward to the change, getting rid of Eric Seywood, um, a lot.

And, you know, we'll see.

But before we finish, there are 3 people we need to talk about, and that is Bonnie Langford, Nicola Bryant, and Colin Baker, and just briefly, the 2 companions in his era, what they bring and what you feel now that you've watched the era.

Um, I'm quite happy to start.

Actually, if I may.

Perry.

Okay, 1st of all.

Colin Nicola and Bonnie.

All play the parts to the absolute best of their ability.

There's no slacking going on at all.

Perry's character is very cynical.

And that works really well with Pete.

Like when he's breathless and enthusiastic in Andrazani, and she's the one warning about danger and calling him a pain and making jokes about his glass blowing, et cetera, et cetera.

[1:14:32]

That really works.

The problem becomes when the early 6th doctor is quite cynical as well.

So they're trying to out cynical each other and what'll happen is.

A lot of the arguments between them arise from the fact that he's being cynical, but for a moment she's not being cynical.

And so they fight.

Whereas when you look at the mysterious planet, when she's being cynical, he's doing that thing of not really listening to her, and that makes it funny because he's being kind of warm and silly.

And then you get that great scene where she's distraught, despite the fact her world is perfectly safe, and this is long after she would be dead anyway.

And rather than be cynical back at her, the doctor attempts to comfort her as he would a child.

And when that doesn't work, he then adopts a more cynical pragmatic viewpoint, but not cruelly, you know, he tries to make a joke with her and she brushes it off and he says, look, you know that your world is safe.

[1:15:32]

You know that this doesn't matter and you know that nothing lasts forever.

So he treats her like an adult in that moment.

And I think that's the evolution of their characters in that at 1st they're kind of being cynical children at each other.

And then they become cynical adults.

But it's also a problem for the show because compare that to 2 actors who didn't get along behind the scenes, Tom Baker and Louise Jameson, in the invisible enemy when they're going through the doctor's brain and they have that beautiful bit where they're standing in front of the wind machine and talking about travelling into the land of dreams and fantasies.

It's silly, but that is inviting us to go on adventure.

And again, I don't blame Colin and Nicola.

I think I think they do the best they can with the direction they're given, and there are some lovely moments of charm between them in that 1st season when they're when their characters synchronise, and they're not just being cynical and bitchy at each other.

Then when Bonnie comes along.

There's no chance for cynicism.

But again, the doctor then gets to be cynical with her and she brushes it off.

[1:16:34]

And I think that's the thing.

If you're going to have one character who's being cynical, the other character has to be open and you can flip that occasionally, but having 2 characters be cynical doesn't work.

But again, Colin, Bonnie, Nicola.

All incredibly strong performances, I don't know if this is the case for Bonnie, but certainly with Colin and Nicola, they've spoken about how much they considered their performance and how much they thought about it.

I haven't heard Bonnie talk about her performance that much.

So I'm not saying she hasn't done that, but I just don't know about it.

I have said this before, but I think there's a problem with having just the doctor and one female companion.

I don't like that conception of the show.

I think it's too small a regular cast, and there's something lonely about it.

We kind of think that that's the normal state of affairs for the show, but of course it isn't.

It's not that at all.

Just maybe for a few seasons.

[1:17:35]

Um, you know you're right.

When does it happen?

Because you've got all the unit people.

And then, then you have got Sarah and the doctor for a little bit.

You've got Lena and the doctor for a bit, but then you've got K9 in there as well as a 3rd mix.

So it really doesn't happen that much.

Even in the new series, you know, you've got the families, you've got Rory, you've got Jack, you've got Mickey, you've got Daddy.

You've got Nardol now.

I'm actually really looking forward to that because I've seen behind the scenes videos of Pearl and Matt mucking about with the TARDIS console and they actually have a really good back and forth with each other.

So I'm hoping that translates onto screen.

But yeah, I agree with you, Nathan.

You need 2 people who can gang up on the doctor.

The 1st time I really felt it was when Pete regenerates into Colin, and the only person who witnesses that, and the only person that it matters to is Perry, and no one else sees it.

Um, And so the, It makes me a little bit sad somehow.

[1:18:36]

It makes the world smaller.

And we don't get to see them relate to anyone really other than guests stars and each other.

And so I think that's a problem with the show at the moment.

And it's a reaction, obviously, to how John Nathan Turner started the show with a big cast.

I think that Perry is, A badly conceived character played with considerable charm by Nicola.

I think that the previous for female character, Tegan, who, you know, was Bolshy and funny and stood up to the doctor and all of that, you know, that she was great, and we replace her with someone who, um, is, um, you know, beautiful young woman who is menaced and manhandled and mistreated by men and she becomes more of a kind of perils appalling.

Yeah, more than anyone since Victoria, really.

[1:19:39]

And she certainly has a worse time of any other companion.

Like hers is the life that's kind of destroyed by her time with the doctor.

With Mel, again, I think Bonnie Langford has considerable charm.

I think she does a good job towards the end of season 24, but she suffers from the fact, as I said, a couple of weeks ago that 9 out of her 1st 10 episodes are written by Pip and Jane Baker.

She's playing it theatrical, and so all of her lines come across as really terribly artificial, but I think she's terribly charming.

I think Colin is saddled with a ill considered conception of the character, which he manages more or less to shake off completely during his short run.

And I think that character wasn't designed to play to Colin's strengths and the Colin's strengths are that he can be terribly funny and silly and rather sweet and the whole idea of an unlikeable doctor, which, you know, I guess is what we're kind of going through at the moment, that doesn't have to not work.

[1:20:46]

I think there's a lot to be said for the way that Peter Capaldi plays the part.

But I don't think it's a good fit for Colin, and I think that it's Eric Sayward, in some sense, is trying to undermine the whole idea of a hero, but he's too cynical to believe in heroes, and he doesn't want the doctor to be a hero.

And so, you know, he slumps in a chair when they run out of zight on 7 or completely fails to solve the problem that they find themselves in in a whole bunch of stories and stuff like that.

So he's really hampered.

He has some strength, but he's really hampered by the role he's given.

And the coach?

Horrific.

All right, well.

Something up, perhaps, for me, at the end of all this, I do agree with a lot of what both of you have said.

I think Nicola does a wonderful job in a role where Perry is put in peril and manhandled and the season 23 Well, at least mysterious planet version is fabulous and she gets to show her acting chops.

[1:21:52]

So thank you, Nicola.

I really like Bonnie with Colin much more than what will happen next year where I think the theatrical performance really almost destroys 2 stories for me.

And that's no, I'm not wanting to have a go at Bonnie.

I think her enthusiasm cannot be discounted.

It's a pity that she doesn't get more shows on real earth.

What I find so amazing about Colin is his status as an ambassador for the show, like whenever there's a new doctor and he's interviewed, he talks about how happy he's going to be to see Matt Smith in the role, how happy he's going to be to see Peter Capaldi in the role, considering how he was treated, there is no, he owes nothing to the show.

He really owes nothing to the show.

I remember seeing ads that he was going to be at conventions in the early 90s.

So he never went off being involved with the show.

You know, in 1989 he came back and did the stage show, the ultimate adventure.

You know, he took over as 2nd choice after John Pertley and, you know, didn't mind at all, didn't complain.

[1:22:58]

Compare that to Christopher Eccleston.

Who has said in recent years he had a bad time on the show.

He didn't want it the way that Keith Bowick treated extras and that's why he quit the show and that's why he doesn't do conventions and that's why he won't come back and do the show.

And the thing is, I'm not criticising him for taking that stand of defending someone lower than him in the pecking order.

But it's like, you know what?

When you have a bad time, when you have a bad experience.

There are multiple ways you can deal with it.

And Collin's way of dealing with it is to separate the horrible treatment he had at the hands of the BBC from the love that fans have for the show.

And that's the thing.

Colin will turn up at a convention, probably knowing that, hey, maybe 10% of the audience hate me and hate my interpretation, I'm not here for them.

I'm here because you guys love the show.

And he's very, very proud of his role.

I made the joke earlier that he didn't get interviewed for Dwim for he refused to have anything to do with Dwim for ages because he went to the bottom of the poll.

[1:24:00]

But at the same time, when you've been kicked for like almost 30 years about how you played the role, maybe that's a bit understandable.

But the thing is, he did still come back and he just does the audios and he does the conventions and he does the charity work.

And he does it with a big smile on his face because he knows that as much as he's criticised.

He's also loved.

And I love Colin, and I love his doctor.

And, you know, Out of Everyone who's played it, including Tom Baker, including David Tennant, I think he loves being on Doctor Who the most.

Colin, you know, I just got to say thank you.

I just.

No other doctor, I think, has had to put up with the stuff behind the scenes and decisions made out of his control, and He came along at the right time, and I hope one day Colin does listen to this, and we know that he's never going to win best Dr. Paul's.

Doesn't matter.

Those polls mean nothing to me.

[1:25:01]

I like them all.

And, you know, Colin, you'll always have my vote.

We're saying a very premature goodbye to the Baker now, as our power systems have been depleted, and we're making an emergency landing on the planet Excelon.

I'm sure everything will be absolutely fine.

I can't wait to try the resorts there.

Do come back next week for our commentary on Death to the Daleks.

I've heard that I heard they have a great steam room.

Until then, you can find us online at flightthroughentirety.sexy, flight through entirety on Facebook and iTunes and at FTE podcast on Twitter over on Bondfinger.

We will shortly be welcoming Pierce Brosnan to the role of James Bond in Golden Eye, but until then, we have all preceding Bond films, including Casino Royale, 1967, and never say never again.

[1:26:02]

You can find that on Bondfinger.com, Bondfinger on Facebook and iTunes and Bondfinger cast on Twitter.

Until next week, may none of your Gumblejack be eaten by Spielsnapes.

Thank you very much for listening.

Good night.

Good night.

See you at survival.

That was Flight Through Entirety with Todd BLB, Nathan Bottomley, and Brendan Jones. theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb.

This episode, Never Going to Win, was reported on the 15th of April, 2017.

Next episode will be released on June 18th.

We'd like to dedicate this episode to the memory of Maggie's Staples. who helped many fans appreciate Colin Baker's doctor in a whole new way.

OK, we've got a field three hours.

Hello.

The Colin Baker retrospective, um, 15th of April.

I don't I don't know if I have an intro.

[1:27:05]

You know, this is our sea devil's moment.

What do you mean?

our 1st one recorded out of order.

Oh, yes.

This is going out after ones that we've yet to record, which we can't say because we, if I include this as the tag at its point.

Oh, but this is going to be after those.

So now we can say, because we haven't yet recorded time in Corporated or the big finished audio thing.

That's okay.

Are we talking about the big finish audio?

I think we can.

I think we can, yeah, definitely.

Yeah, but just then I'll have been memory wiped between last week's episode of this week's episode.

Well, you can just talk about the general, I hope.

God, what am I going to say?

We're the only Doctor Who podcast coming at you live through your ear holes.

Do you remember that?

I think I've said that before.

That's what you say in the 1st episode.

[1:28:06]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.