Flirting Wittily

Hello, Delissa and welcome back to Flight Through Entirety, the only Doctor Who podcast that provides insightful analysis of every single Doctor Who story in order. It's nonsense for deep people. I'm Nathan. I'm Brendan. I'm Liz. Well, the doctor and Martha have the week off, and so we have the chance for some quality time with Carrie Mulligan in an episode partly about the terrifying brevity of human life, but mostly about how clever Stephen Moffatt is, exhibit A, blink. So, Liz, this or the Time Monster? Oh, my goodness. Oh, you said it would be easy. That's a bit. You're a cruel man. That's been harsh. In terms of love? The Time Monster, obviously. You can't just chuck out childhood's beloved favourites for this newfangled nonsense of the 21st century. But I suppose technically, in a purely objectivish or subjectivish you can get sense, oh, which one is actually better written, I must reluctantly admit, it's probably blank, a little bit. Maybe. What might argue the show's a greater command of scriptwriting craft? Yeah. Little bit. It's still, the Time Monster is really fun and we really enjoyed it when we covered it, didn't we? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it'd be like asking me, you know, bandrils or adipos, and it's like, you can, no, you can't get rid of the bandrils. I'm not saying we have to get rid of one. Oh, okay. This isn't Sophie's choice. It's not, you know, like it's, I'm not being sort of terribly cruel. I would the world would be a much worse place without the time monster to kind of relax in front of. It's wonderful. Yes, but it is a different pleasure from work. Yes, that makes sense. Though I would love to have someone new to Doctor Who be like, okay we're going to show you an example of the new series. sit down and watch blink. And now here's the best of the old series, such down, I watched The Time Monster. I just watched the expression on their face. Oh, dear. I have never shown the time monster at the Doctor Who Club at school and I really should. I need to find someone to do that too, Liz. That's genius. Very helpful. like that. I suggest some small people that you insulate from the world at large until they are ready to be exposed to Doctor Who and continue on in ordinary lives. That might be immoral. There might be some ethical considerations there, which is why I obviously don't do any sort of experiments like that. That'd be... I don't like talking. Shut up. No, no. It's like that friggin king who had those 2 children that no one was allowed to speak to or something. I can't even remember. Cut all that out. That nonsense. This is a bit of an uncontroversial one, isn't it? I mean, we're not going to be wrangling over the, you know, our opinions here. Does anyone not like this? I think it's great. I really enjoy it. I remember really enjoying it at the time and kind of being blown away at the time and going, wow, this is something new and different and exciting. How about you, Liz? But the time I was at university and I was watching this at my flat with a friend and we were steadily getting more and more scared as it went on to the point where the bit where the TARDIS is surrounded. I believe we may have been screaming in terror. Genuinely freaked out to that extent because it was, it was just so cool and new and it felt fresh and and and very, you know, it feels like a very classicy twilighty zone slash outer limits um style for yielding modern, yielding modern error, the modern error but it's none of the cheese of the the remakes in the the 90s of it's, it's like modern and cool science fiction. That's really, really scary. I forgot when I was watching Stems, just how good some of the direction is, like there's this gorgeous one where Sally, um, she's crouched over something. The angels there looking at her. She stands back up, and as her body moves across the face of angel it switches back, um, in the same shot, and it's just, I'd forgotten stuff like that. I'd forgotten just how creepy a lot of it is before you get to the actual bit where they're like screaming at you silently. Um, what watching it again. It's one of the ones that I try to watch very seldomly because uh like uh, the girl in the fireplace. I'm terrified that it will just become too well known. So I, it's, it's, yeah, and I love that feeling of, um, Not, like yes, I know what's going to happen, but I've forgotten enough of the details that it's interesting again. And this has definitely been, yes, I know it's really good. But watching it this morning, it was like, wow, this is really amazing. I'd forgotten all this stuff, which was very cool. Yeah, yeah, I just watched it today as well. You're so right about those, those moments where the transition over the angels is a person moving across them and all of a sudden they've moved or that bit where Sally's looking out the window at the police station and sees the angels across the way and then gets distracted and looks back and the angels are gone and they're right next to the window, she's staring out of. That's wonderful, isn't it? In fact, that's not an obvious decision. Like it didn't have to be like that, did it? The idea that we as the audience count as someone looking at the angels. And so that's why we never see the move. And they will move the next time that they appear. But that choice to just have them as completely motionless figures isn't something that had to happen. Was it Stephen Moffat's idea? Yes, yes, it was. He was recalling a, I believe, a trip he had as a child and he saw an old busted down church from far away behind a fence and he could just make out the statues in there and it really unnerved him. And he was trying to write this script in a hurry, basically because 1st of all, he says, well, you know, I still want to write for the 3rd season, but can I have something towards the back of the season and maybe just one episode and he sort of, he says he put Russell off so much that eventually he volunteered for the Dr Light episode because he thought no one wants to do that. Everyone wants to write the doctor. And that's also why the sort of plot of the episode is borrowed from the 2006 Doctor Who annual. Yeah, which has a story about it's like what I did on my holidays by Sally Sparrow. Yeah, but there's no weeping angels or anything in that. The doctor's just stuck in the past and is sending Sally messages from there and Sally's, I think, around a 12 year old character in that. But the decision was made to make her an adult for dramatic reasons because Stephen kind of quoted Sidney Newman to say that he felt that children were more interested in watching characters older than them rather than characters of their own age. Yes, I do recall that as a child. Doctor Who was more interesting than any children's tell, any just children's television that was available to me. Stephen Moffatt will put more children in Doctor Who when he takes over. But at this point, there aren't that many. And I still think that, you know, the way this works, because the other thing that it leans into, apart from Stephen Moffatt's really kind of careful plotting is how good he is at romantic comedy. And so, you know, having Sally's emotional arc, sort of. I mean, it is sort of fairly thinly sketched, but we get a meat cute with Larry, you know, leading up to her taking Larry's hand and just sort of very quietly kind of agreeing that they're kind of together now at the very end once everything's been resolved. I mean, Moffatt writes funny sitcom dialogue in a way that seems so incredibly effortless and I think that he always does really well when he's got that structure to work with. Yeah, I think the dialogue throughout. It was one of the things that I'd partly forgotten. And so, um, all the lines that are like, oh, yeah, that was like um, that was just really cool to see again. And it's, yeah, it's so annoying how good the dialogue is every single time and the way it works, the way it's like, yes, it's character stuff and it's funny and you enjoy it, but it's also pushing the plot forward. It has a point. It's just, it's desperately irritating how good. Almost all of it. Ive got one. there's one scene that I'm with a couple of dialogue that I'm like, eh, I don't like this, but that might be probably down to personal taste more than anything else. But so much of it, all of Sally's conversations are just an absolute delight. I take such joy in the way that they are so efficient and witty. I mean, the stuff with Detective Shipton and how just quick it was and yet how much it got to you was, 0 my god, I was like tears in my eyes with the, he's dying now and her, I'll stay with you. And it was like, did I cry this before? What? This is terrible. I think I cry every time I see it and I was definitely in tears and I think it is the Billy Shipton thing that gets to me. And it isn't just, like, he's so tremendously, fabulously sexually confident. And Stephen Moffatt writes women like River Song. who are also sort of just supremely confident. Like she, um, Sally definitely wins in sort of every interaction with, with Larry, um, but she's put on the back foot by Billy. But it's not just that, which I think is beautiful, that scene of two, you know, just attractive young people flirting wittily. But the payoff to it. And I guess what people maybe don't talk about quite so much is just the idea that it's about how quick life is, how quickly it goes. So Billy Shipton lives a long life. And Kathy Nightingale lives a long and full life. But to Sally, they're over like that. You blink and you miss it. And it's that line that Billy says about looking at his hands and seeing that they're old man's hands and asking when did that happen? You know, and it happened just instantly it happened on this day as well as happening, you know, sometime between 1969 and now. Just how quickly life is over. And so obviously weeping angels, which appear on tombstones. They're obviously the correct monster for that, for that theme. Something I really like about the Billy stuff is you've got Michael Obiora playing young Billy. You've got Lewis Mahoney previously of Planet of Evil and Frontier in Space as Old Billy. I imagine they would never have met the way that modern television has made the 2 actors. And yet they managed to capture the same mannerism. So I can only put that down to Hetty McDonald, the director. And this was her 1st Doctor Who. She's making the Dr. Light episode, which is double banked with other things. She will come back to the series in Peter Capaldi's time. But this is just so well directed. And then after Sally has sat with, with Billy, I don't think we even get a crossfade, which would be the usual thing to show that time has passed, we cut to the floor of the hospital and tilt up to find Sally staring out the window and the rain has stopped. I'm choking up now. But it's when you can see the floor. The floor is reflective. Yes. And so you would have seen the rain in it in the previous scene. So the moment you see that floor, with the lighting different, you know that enough time has passed and that rain is over. Yeah. Like I know I know for a fact I bawled the 1st time I watched that scene. I absolutely bore it. Oh, sorry, I'm just going to get everyone. Oh God, Italy is just, it's so, it's so good. And it's not the only time she does stuff with reflections in the story. She does it in a very uncanny way in the house where Larry's staring at the Dooda, the angel, and Sally's trying to get out and there's a mirror in the hallway and it uses the mirror to show her as much as it does actually looking at her, which is using reflections in a slightly creepier way. Um, but yeah, no, it was just, um, what was said about, um, about life being over so quickly. And one of the things that really made that work for me was that the people being sent back in time, Kathy and Billy, they didn't have like short, horrible, tragic, miserable lives in the times they were in. They're both shown to have happy fulfilling lives that they don't regret that, you know, they, they, um, found joy in. And uh, and yet that's still layered with the sadness of it being over. And to me, that kind of, that makes it more relatable and more meaningful because we're not being asked to, 0 my god, it's so terrible, long life miserable. But it's that, yeah, it cuts out that idea of it being a completely horrific thing that the angels are doing to you and you're focussing on the fact that it's, yeah, it's about the quickness of time passing instead. It's really neat. It's really beautiful, isn't it? There's that. Do you remember young Billy says to Sally, life is short and you are hard. And then old Billy says life is long and you're hot. And just the idea that life is long. Like life is long. He lived another 50 years. But it's still tragic that it's over. And, you know, Doctor Who Death is usually so stupid. Like you get shot. You get shot in the in the throat, you clutch your stomach and then fall over sort of thing. You know, there's a ray gun or something like that. You find a comfortable spot to land and move out of the way, so canine can get down the corridor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You get hugged to death by robot mummies or something. Like the whole thing is so sort of preposterous. But having real proper death and here's what it means. And the new series has done death sort of rather better than the classic series often does. But this, I think, is its best treatment of death today. No, because it's, yeah, because as you say, it's just like kind of often a sort of comedy window dressing. I mean, my favourite story for Death is a chair of the autons. And none of those, I actually feel particularly bad for the characters. I think it's hilarious though, where they're dispatched, which isn't necessarily the best thing when you're doing that every single time. But yeah, part of part of the reason Blink works so well. I mean, I sometimes I feel like the weeping angels and the brilliance of them overshadows everything else that's brilliant in it, but that's such a, um, such a compassionate and kind way of looking at the end of life and not being um, sentimental or softening it, but not being cruel about it, um, is is just, yeah it's really moving. And both, um, Billy and Kathy's deaths are treated, treated in that way that you really feel that these are real people. There's a realism to the whole episode that is relatively unusual in Doctor Who as a whole, um, which obviously benefits uh, partly from the doctor being in it for a minimum amount of time. But these, um, occasionally you get characters wandering into Doctor Who that do feel realer than what we often have. There's a lot of them, I think, in season 7, uh, parties 1st season. Um, and here we have another handful of them that, uh, they have they have that extra feeling of, of, of depth and seriousness that's um, often absent or is minimised because of the extraordinariness of the situation. Whereas this, it's very, it's very down low, it's very creepy. Such, there are no real, there's like, I wouldn't say real, because that's not true, there's practical effects, but there's, there's nothing glitzy about the special effects here. It's all done in, oh, it's done such a nice sense. It's a nice simplistic way that this could have been made anytime in the past 50 years and still have been beautifully done. Yeah, I think that is such a good point. sort of, there are stories which, if they had been made for the classic series, the limitations of the special effects back then would have impacted the ability to tell the story, say the end of the world, which is still a very good script, but as you say, I was watching this this afternoon thinking this is almost a stage play. You know, you've got Kathy's flat, you've got the DVD shop, you've got the house, and you've got the police station, really. You've got those 4 locations. hospital as well, I suppose. It could be a stage by it. has that quality where they are simply relying on the performances of the actors to tell the story. And of course, the weeping angels don't have voice. And even when they're given voice in later stories. There's a conceit around it that we're not quite really hearing them speaking sort of thing. They are that alien, that they do not communicate through speech or through telepathy or any other way that we have had aliens communicate indocto before. They don't communicate. We don't know how they communicate to one another because nothing is known about them. And that makes them even scarier and almost love crafty in their design and conception. Yeah, there is, there is quite a lot of crafty vibe there, whereas both the beginning of the universe thing and the, it's not a true sort of weird existential horror thing, but it is, there is a there is a horrific sort of stretch, human, but not quite humanness of them that really is quite freaky. The unexpected sharp teeth on the inside as well. that um, yeah. I think that's the moment where I jumped, like again. And I knew it was coming. Of course, I knew it was coming. But, you know, there's a musical sting. It's the 1st time Larry, I think, sees the teeth. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. And he's really close. That thing too, where he can't sort of stop himself from blinking or whatever. And then suddenly it's like right in his face. Like it's it's really good and he sells that so well. That scene where he's just absolutely frightened. The camera is right in his face. He's looking straight at us. We're watching his eyes for any sign that he's going to blink. It's super tense. And he still manages to be kind of really funny and likeable as well. It's funny how when he turns up, he says, you live in Scooby-Doo's house and he's basically shaggy. It's another one of, you know, Stephen Moffatt is a writer who talks about masculinity like quite a lot and, you know, right from coupling and even joking apart, I think it sort of interrogates the smart man, the smart, smug man sort of thing. And, you know, both of his doctors deal with that too. And Larry is sort of, he's a little bit like Oliver, a little bit like Jeff from coupling, you know, like he's a super nerd and he's got the t-shirt and, you know, his mates are the internet and all of that sort of thing. And Sally, I think Sally seems a bit less typical. She's very smart and she does say apparently when she's annoyed. Like Susan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was thinking about coupling as well. And I think what sets Sally apart is, you know, all the characters in coupling have their fatal flaw, if you like. Sally doesn't really seem to have a fatal flaw that's based in hubris, like the coupling characters do. Yeah. You know, she's a flawed character and she doesn't know everything but she is a lot more of an ideal person without being hyper perfect. So she's believable. Yeah. I absolutely adore her. It's a detective story and we get Sally and Kathy joking about being an ITV detective duo, but it's a detective story with an amateur sleuth, but figuring things out in a way that we, the audience, can figure out as well. She's an expertly crafted character because she doesn't talk down to the audience. She's on the same level as the audience. And when she figures out and we figure stuff out, we get that she's clever, we feel clever being brought along with her. I can see why Stephen Moffatt tried to bring her back several times. Yeah, that is the brilliant thing. Other than Carrie Milligan's performance, which is just, God, it's amazing. We get her here in an early role being so brilliant, but that sense that, yes, she's obviously clever, and that satisfaction is an audience of, yet absolutely figuring it out, she goes along which is so rare, generally speaking, detective shows. The detective knows more than us. They're ahead of us. Sometimes they cheat, and it's not things that fall down to make sense, but in a, in a, if anything, we have a slight advantage here because we know it's Doctor Who. We know there's time travel involved, but everything is at, we're giving enough information to sort of be able to guess at it, but the moment of confirmation is the same as when, when Sally is getting it, and that sense of satisfaction as a viewer of having the mystery set up and then the reveal. is fantastic. And that's the sort of sad thing about rewatches of this because you're never going to get that 1st time watch back. And this is a story where the 1st time watch is just glorious on so many levels. But yeah, I miss, I miss having the delightful surprise and satisfaction of the mystery reveals as we go along. I do like the stages of it, but it is kind of funny, the way that the way that it kind of works is because it's Doctor Who and because there's time travel. You know, one of the things that a detective writer does is carefully sets everything up and provides clues and red herrings and all of those kinds of things. A good detective writer. Some of them cheat. But the doctor is kind of doing that here, isn't he? Like the doctor is kind of setting things up. So the doctor has the message under the wallpaper, but also tells tells Billy to tell Sally to read the list and that leads her to the next discovery. You know, there's something that the doctor's doing in the background. And I couldn't help thinking all the time that I was watching it that because Stephen Moffatt is sort of famous for these puzzle box plots. Which is basically the fault of this story. Because it's this one and it's like nothing else is quite like this. And yet we expect them to do this every single time. You have to be this good every single time or you have failed Stephen Moffatt. I think that, you know, next year when he does the 2 parter and the 2 parter has lots of questions, you know, is a sort of very weird puzzle box, it's impossible, the 1st time you watch it, to know exactly what's going on and how it's going to resolve itself. And in true Stephen Moffatt fashion, It resolves itself perfectly and all makes sense, even though I think by the cliffhanger, you're absolutely wondering how, you know, how can all of these things be happening? And so the doctor and Stephen Moffatt seem to be having a similar role here in the episode, that there's something here, which whether it's deliberately or inadvertently, has Moffatt sort of commenting on his own craft as someone who devises plants. That's interesting. I like that. Well, that bit at the end, you know, where, where does Larry say look, sometimes we just don't find out what happened and that's okay. You know, there's a kind of a way of watching Doctor Who, where it doesn't matter if everything's not resolved or if you get to the fridge afterwards and, you know, take out a milk bottle or something and then you think, actually, how could that even possibly have happened? You know, there's a way in which that doesn't, that doesn't matter and plenty of fantastic Doctor Who doesn't tell you everything. But that's not Moffatt's Doctor Who, you know. And Sally, who is standing in 1st Stephen Moffatt here, says, no, I have to know. It has to resolve itself. It has to make proper sense. And then within sort of 2 minutes, the thing happens that makes it all make proper sense and fit together. Yeah, yeah. I definitely think that as if you're watching the episode at that point, you're like yelling at Larry going, no, we need the answer. We have to find out. I just all resolve. So I feel very onside of Sally Sparrow at that moment, and then as you're sort of inwardly yelling, if you're me. Then the exhale is, ah, there we go. We now know everything. It's all good. Yeah, yeah. And there's just a few little details around those scenes that I love. First of all, you know, this is one year later after the main narrative, and there's an earlier point in the episode which says that this episode is taking place in 2007, which, from the perspective of the new series of Doctor Who is contemporaneous with series 2, because each one of Russell's series is the year ahead of production, because of that 12 months. So that year means that the doctor and Martha are back on Earth contemporaneous with her timeline. Right. So, you know, this is sort of Martha just popping home briefly between 42 and the sound of drums, kind of to find a to find a 4 things and a lizard, 5 minutes to red hatching. And I also love because I was watching this in the knowledge that they've often asked Kerry Mulligan to come back. And of course, her star has risen and she's doing amazing things in other productions now. But I watched that scene where she hands over the folder to the doctor and as she takes Larry's hand, I'm like, you know what? I'm actually glad that we haven't revisited Sally Sparrow and Larry Nightingale, because with her conversation with Larry beforehand, she can't, she can't get on with her life until she has closed the loop with the doctor. And when she closes it, she doesn't say the doctor, take me with you. She doesn't say I want to go travelling. Let me see the TARDS again. It's like, actually, no, I'm good now. I'm ready I'm ready to go on. And yeah, I've often said that with Amy and Rory's story, I kind of wish there were several earlier points where that could have ended and I really like the ending of Sally and Larry's story within the world of the doctor here and they go back into their shop and Bantos nowhere to be seen. They've bought him out. They're free-named it. Yeah, that's the final shot. It's Barrow and Nightingale. Um, I just, I just really like that, that because we've, we were discussing earlier how, despite the tragedy of Billy and Kathy being sent back in time, they did have their full lives and as, as Larry says, they're like, I think your obsession is getting in the way of your life. There certainly isn't a comment on any companions, I'm sure. Or us. But it's, Oh my goodness. No. I don't need that. But exactly. Badlands. I did hear that. But Larry and Banto are a comment on fandom. You know, Larry's got the t-shirt and he's on the egg forums and the doctor says, look to your left and he says, I think that's a political statement. How many times have I argued with David from the Doctor Who show about the politics of the Sunmakers for God's sake. You know? I couldn't pretend it's a comet on Meal Phantom. I think you can, particularly Banto. Bantos are particularly kind of horrible kind of male fan. Yeah, well, the script refers to him, rather uncharitably, as all gut and a tight T-shirt. I feel really attacked, right? Banto, you know, he's kind of presented as a bit useless because Sally walks in and he's just like, oh, yeah, Larry's doing that whatever. But as she's leaving the shop, he's the one who says, why does no one ever go to the police, like lamp shading this whole thing? Yeah. But does that give her the idea? Like, that gives her the idea. Isn't that why she goes for the toilet? That's what I mean. It's like he's set up to be a stereotypical, useless fanboy. Bit harsh. It a perfectly reasonable comment. I have heard fanboys make before and I agree with them. That's a good point. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. It's an important comment and it speeds the plot along. In fact, the fandom thing with Larry. Sally is very sweet about it. You know, like she doesn't make fun of him or anything. And, you know, sometimes you can imagine Stephen Moffatt writing someone being a little bit more dismissive, like some of the characters in coupling. And she thinks it's funny. Like that smile that she gives when she decodes his reference to you know, his mates and she says, you know, that's the internet isn't it? It's very sweet. Like she's she's lovely. I think the 2 of them, they don't sort of get any scenes where they're sort of growing, you know, warm and attached to one another in any overt way, but they go through this thing together. Then we get a year. And like I think it's a credible ending. Yeah, that's the other reason I don't want them to come back because Stephen Ruffoot would just melt them or turn one of them into a Zygon or something. Yeah, or they'd be getting divorced or something. Yeah, yeah. Divorced for no readily apparently. Yeah. No, I do think it's a perfect kind of story that can be left alone quite well. And I suppose there are a lot of things that you could say about that in Doctor Who that did come back and I probably like most of them, but I think seeing this in context of however many, 0 god it's been like over 10 years, doesn't it? 10 years later, you're like, it does feel very nice that these, you have the complete thing. It has a happy ending. People die, but not in horrible ways. Um, and yeah, I think them coming through that kind of uh, trauma terror together is definitely the sort of thing that, you know that uh, a new understanding of the other person for you have both survived, weird stuff that you can't talk to anyone else about especially. And um, I think they do a really good job with the uh, makeup and the acting of Larry. So you definitely get the sense that he has become a, a, I don't necessarily grown up. That seems harsh, but you do see if you get the feeling that he's grown up in the interim in the year between. He does feel like a more put together person. And in a very short space of screen time there. So I really like how it's done. I'm glad you spotted that as well, because yeah, his hair looks a bit neater, his beard looks a bit neater. clothes are ironed, you know, it's just, it's just little, those little clues. Yeah, even though he's standing, he's standing with a sense of self-assurance that he didn't, he didn't have before, he seems like, yeah, he seems like I know who I am a lot more now, which you know, again, could be partially due to the trauma as well as Sally's friendship slash romantic thing. It's like, oh, look at me. I have a person who can survive terrifying weird things and get on with life. Great. In fact, maybe there's a little bit of a sort of crossover because you know, Sally's definitely the one who has hand in the, you know in the relationship at the very beginning, like she wins in sort of any interaction between them, but she hasn't been able to let go and he has. And so he's moved on and grown up and she's stayed where she is. Yeah. So he's the one that's showing the emotional maturity, even though we, the audience, in our immature famishness. What the gosh darn dancers. But yeah, no, you're absolutely right. I think that isn't that is a nice, you know, an evening out. I know it's, uh, yeah, I think that, yeah, I do, I do really like that about it. Even though it would be a bit weird if he was the one who hadn't moved on, that would make sense. But it's, uh, it's nice to see that he's the more emotionally well adjusted one. Given that rule is normally given to the woman. I really like the way that a whole bunch of mysteries are set up the start and that we get answers to them all in succession things. Like, the teaser is that, you know, tearing wallpaper off the wall and having someone speak to you like that. That's an amazing teaser. I don't know if there's ever been a better one than that. And then to have the delivery of the letter, and the weirdness of letter, 1st of all, it's to her. And then you solely realise it's from the path. Well, not solar is, but it's been a very long time coming. And it's from his grandmother and you're suddenly like, 0 my gosh. And then he confirms that he's the grandson and that was just the beats of that scene or series of scenes. series of scenes. The beats of their, of the, the slow reveal. It's just it's so satisfying. And they do it again with the DVD extras, setting it up. And then when you finally get the conversation happening, it's like, oh, the 1st time seeing that, it's like, this is, this is brilliant. This is genius. How weird and bizarre and exciting is this to watch? And it's a bloody conversation with the computer screen effectively they're having. This is so good. It's really incredible, isn't it? I think that 1st scene that you mentioned. Once you watch it for the 2nd time and you know who the letter's from, seeing Kathy in the background of that scene as well, is really amazing because she's there listening and sort of trying to work out how to leave and things and trying not to be seen. And I think that just adds a sort of extra kind of Frisson to that scene. Indeed. And it's another use of that big mirror you were talking about earlier, Liz, because that's how Kathy is observing the conversation. I have to confess that in 2007, before we all had computers in our pockets, when I 1st watched it and didn't immediately have access to Wikipedia or things, I thought, is that Daniel Craig? No. It's a good choice to have him look weird and old-fashioned as well. Like he's out of time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the DVD extras. I mean, we've barely talked about the doctor and Martha and obviously they're barely in it, but the DVD extras conversation is incredible, isn't it? And the way that Sally nearly starts to have that conversation with the doctor, when she's in the back room at Bantos, just listening to sort of one DVD extra. And then when the conversation actually happens and we've already heard that bit. It's so incredibly well done. And even the fact that, um, you feel like that they could hear each other, that surely they can hear each other. And partly it is because David Tennant, even though the doctor is just reading from a transcript, Tennant is acting as if he can hear her speak. Yes, yeah. Yeah, and that's that's another one of the business bets where you get to feel clever because you're like, 0 my god, it's a conversation, but they don't work it out till later. So you're like, aha, I was told that earlier. So I knew it before you, Sally Sparrow. which is very helpful. There's some of the, some of the bits with, one of the reasons that I really, really love this episode and I feel very chill watching it is because there's no bits between Martha and the doctor that make me wince and go, why are you being so mean to Martha? Kind of dumb. It's just Martha. Martha's my RTD companion. Martha's the one that I empathised with. And to feel that your identification figure is just being mean to all the time or every other episode. It doesn't make you feel good. It was not, it was not very happy for me. I have to ignore those bits from watching season 3, which is really annoying because this is my favourite RTD season and yet I have to go, la la, la, it didn't happen. at some point in almost every episode. Yeah, which is why it had terrible, terrible knock on effects because I don't really care all much about Donna. And the reason being, when we've got a new one, I was like, well, I know not to get attached to you because I know what happened last time. And also, I don't want to get attached to you because you were really mean to the one that I loved. So I'm not going to have any feelings for this new one. I was doing a doctor there because I had felt betrayed at the way that my companion had been treated. But we've got, it's okay, it's because she's in it for like a minute here. At least at least we have that. She does have a bow and arrow, which is very cool. And she does annoyingly have my favourite outfit of hers for that one scene in 1969, which is like, god damn it, really? One scene. But yeah. So that was quite pleasing in this, yeah. beloved Martha. We've been talking a lot over the last few episodes about how mean the doctor is to Martha and how unpleasant and difficult it is to watch. and and even when he's not actively being mean to her. Like when he kind of welcomes her on board at the end of the Lazarus experiment and he does seem to tone all of that sort of stuff down, she ends up, you know, having to scrub floors or yeah she has to work in a shop. And she just seems to have a really undeserved bad time of it. And Freema is so charming, like just so charming. I mean, I just think that Martha lights up the screen in every scene she's in. I think she's just wonderful, massively underappreciated. Yep, I absolutely adore her. And um, Liz, you may, you may have heard on the show before I occasionally mentioned that I do, I do wrestling as a sport and we've got a, um, we've got a club here in Sydney. We've got a sister club in Melbourne and I'm fascinated to find out where this is going. Well, after the Melbourne Club got set up, some of them flew up here for our Christmas party, and I met one of them, and I think I must have been wearing a Doctor Who badge or something, and so I weren't wearing your Bonnie Langford outfit. I wasn't wearing my ballet. No, well, I only found that again recently. It's been in the garage. Um, time of the Rani Bonnie Langford outfit. I was going to ask, because it's like, is it the pink one or the blue one because I assume it must be one of those two. Yep, yeah, pink stripy shirt and white boots. Anyway, um, so I'm I'm like 5 foot four. So I'm not very tall. One of the Melbourne wrestlers. is just shy of 6 foot. Quite burly. Sees me wearing, I think Doctor Who shirt, Doctor Who badge. I'm not sure. He's just like, oh, are you a Doctor Who fan? I said, yes. And he said, the old one or the new one? I said, oh, both. He's like, I really like the new one. I'm like, oh, okay. He said, and you know what? They need to bring back Martha. Martha was, so I've got this, you know, 3 foot across. 6 foot tall guy extolling how? Martha was the companion the doctor needed. He didn't need someone else to just tell him how brilliant he was. No, he needed someone to snap him out of it. And, you know, be his friend no matter what. And that's who Martha is. She gets stuck in 1969 and works in a shop. Now, she doesn't, she doesn't just take it. She complains about it, but she sticks by him. And he said, I've got the leather jacket. I've got the red leather jacket. I found it in a market in my size. It's a woman's leather jacket, but it looks good on me. I just thought because I always liked Martha, but that gave me an idea that, you know, of course, Doctor Who fans were in our sphere and we hear people say, oh, you know, like no one likes the space pirates kind of thing. No one likes this. The Time Monster gang you did at the beginning, Nathan, you know people will say no one likes a Time Monster. Well, I think it's pretty fair to say all 3 of us really like the time monster and not in an ironic way. I know. Yeah, I do feel like there's there's quite a, if you admit to liking the Time Monster, Then suddenly a lot of people come out of the woodwork and are like, yeah, it's a good one. I like, yes, yeah, I feel, yeah, admit the Doctor Who stories that you, you like, unless it's monster pelodon, in which case, you should keep that to yourself. That's terrible. Oh, God, I'm gatekeep. I'm so sorry. I'm sorry. But I mean, Martha has that status, doesn't she? Like, she's in series 2, which everyone, you know, really remembers, and then series 4, which went incredibly well. But Freemer is, you know, really something and I really love series 3 as well. Yeah, the problem is it's supposed to the one I most love of RTDs and it's the one that makes me angry. Because I want the season. What I should really do is get is rip DVDs for all the episodes and just cut out the little bits that I find that are just too much. And then I will have a beautiful season. It's just, 0 man, I get so teed off at the end of it, when the sound of drums, she has some of the greatest companion scenes of all time with her coming down to the earth. I'm coming back and walking away into this terrifying dystopia of little human balls that her entire world has become. And she walks around the world for a year. Basically trying to convince people that the doctor's absurd plan is going to work and she does it. And what does she get at the end? She's like, you know what? I was good. Does the doctor agree with her? Does the doctor say anything lovely to her? No, he just sort of stands there like an utter chump and I want to... Bad things to happen to him at that moment? How dare you let Arthur walk away without telling her how brilliant she is? Gosh, I, oh, I, Still, still not happy. Still not happy. In fact, let me continue the strands a little further. Not 5 or 6 episodes into the next season. We get the, some Taran 2 parter, where the doctor thinks for a moment that Donna's, Donna's going to leave him when she actually just wants to pop off home and see her dad and grandfather, and he's into this big speech about, oh, you were brilliant. I love you so much. You're so great. Oh, please don't go. It going to be terrible without you. It's like, you haven't even been with her for half a season. She hasn't done very much at all. And Martha, Martha spent a year of her life with the world destroyed, her family could be murdered at any moment. And you say nothing to her. I mean, seriously, geez, what's wrong with you, man? What is wrong with you, doctor? And this is why. I have some issues with the 10th doctor. Some very well-balanced kept under the roof issues that I don't let out very often. All of that sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Thank you. I like invalidated. It makes me feel that my unreasonableness is, you know, is reasonable really, quietly, quietly reasonable. Yeah, we fans all have our one thing which a lot of other fans don't get until we describe it as the way you've described it. I know people go, ah, for me, it's black org. But I shan't go into that again here, you know, we've got a time limit. Yeah, it just sucks me it's been it's been 10 years and I still am so pissed off. It's like, what do you need? I get over it. We need 17 box sets from Big Finish to rectify this, quite frankly. I think that's what we need. But my my thinking has always been, it would have been so good to have the family of blood, human nature, 2 parter, as the 1st 2 parter, because that's kind of the emotional crescendo of their relationship, and it's kind of the, her feelings are acknowledged and it's kind of like it's not going to happen, but we've reached a state of equilibrium with it. But it takes us too long to get there. Yeah. Yeah, and so as such, sort of the brilliance of Freemer's performance has to get through this sort of pining that the script asks her to do. I think by now, like by this point in the season, though, like the doctor trusts her. And we spoke last week about, there's just a couple of times where the doctor properly thanks her for all that she's been through during that two-parter, and it shouldn't come as as much of a relief as it does. Yeah. But earlier in the season where he's being alternately sort of standoffish and showboating, he wouldn't have trusted her in quite the same way, not because she didn't deserve it, because obviously you know, she saves his life in the 1st episode, but just for that sort of rather ill considered doctor art to work at all. It does need, I think, to come later in the season. Yes. I do love it in this one when she, when Billy is confused by the doctor's explanation and Martha just says, oh, just nod when he stops for breath. In fact, one of the things about Stephen Moffatt is he tends not to participate in any of that sort of stuff and he didn't really do it in his season 2 episode, like that big kind of towering love affair that goes all the way through season 2 Moffatt really isn't having a bar of it. And here there's just much more sort of screwball comedy in the way that the 2 of them interact, like the 2 the 2 scenes we get with them together. Yeah, yeah. And tenants on fire, he gets some really brilliant dialogue there. That thing about hens. I've learned to avoid ends. I think he's just hilarious. funny and kind of horrible. One of the things I'd forgotten. Did he just suggest? I had to... a quicker you wait and pop subtitles. I was like, oh, my God, how can I not remember? And in that last scene, I love the fact that it kind of harks back to just not when he pauses for breath. Martha's the one who has to keep him on task. Well, and Martha's really enjoying travelling with a doctor at this point too. That wonderful line about going to the moon landing 4 times. We went 4 times. And I love her delivery. Whenever she's not being a very good girl who's doing all the emotional labour for everyone else. When she gets to be funny or slightly naughty. She's wonderful at it. She's so terrific. Yeah, and she was happy there, which is like, oh, yeah, so we get to see why you travel with a doctor in one line and here. This is the reason why 42, not the greatest episode ever, but I still really love it. because the doctor and Martha and their relationship is perfect in it in every way. There is no mention of putting Martha down. There is no pining from Martha. There is just this really gorgeous teamworky thing going on with a little bit of snark, and the god, the level of trust is so beautiful. When Martha gets trapped away in the duda, and the doctor's saying you know, I will get you and her yelling at him, and it's just, you feel it there. He cares about her. He cares about her in a way that's not then undercut by him being a bit of an ass 2 scenes later. And then when she tries to save him with the burning thing and it's like, why? I could have had a whole season with this relationship just or have resolved the thing as you suggested. That'd be brilliant. That's a great solution. Why didn't they do that? I mean, it might have been because they didn't want to break up the pinnacle run of human nature through sound of drums or if you're being very generous last of the time lords, which I still see as peak, peak RTD. That's the that's the top bit. Um, despite, as I said, cutting cutting out the lot of things. Oh, it's so frustrating. How dare they? How dare they felt? They're completely to my wishes. See, it's funny with Stephen Moffatt writing this one and, you know, not presenting that element of the unrequited love element because I do remember an interview with Stephen Moffatt. And I think it was about coupling. And it was at the time when coupling was being labelled as the UK version of Friends because it was 3 men and 3 women and, you know they met in a pub instead of a coffee shop. And he responded with the greatest of respect. I don't like that comparison because he said at the centre of my show. There is a couple who gets together in episode one and the show is about their relationship and the people around their relationship. Friends seems to be about a will they won't they thing about a couple who takes several years to get together and then are on the rocks and he's like, I just find that so unrealistic. I do not think they would have had these feelings for each other without without the discussion coming up very early on. That doesn't happen in real life. And when that does happen, that's not a healthy situation. Yeah, he's absolutely right. Yeah, and so, I mean, I don't want to put word in words in Stephen Moffatt's mouth, but, you know, maybe he was uncomfortable with that. Maybe he could, maybe he felt he didn't want to just try and address that in 2 scenes of this episode. But then again, we've just had human nature, which was a resolution. It goes on, but there's a resolution. But it does mean that when Larry says in that final scene, look, is it getting in the way of other things? It's a very upfront thing to say, but it's a natural human thing to say of, I think no, I think we need to talk about this. We're not we're not just going to sit at each other and make eyes across the room. We're 2 adults. Let's talk about our feelings kind of thing. And everyone in this episode. All the adults talk about their feelings like Kathy wants to tell Sally she's had a good life and she's been happy and... She wants to tell Larry that she hates him. But, you know, it's these 4 adults being faced with the fact that if they're not honest about their emotions now, like time could take away the opportunity, I suppose. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week. We'll be back next week to talk about Russell T. Davey's favourite Blake 7 episode, Utopia. In the meantime, you can find us wherever you get your podcast and you can keep up with us at FlightthroughEntirety.com, flights through entirety on Facebook and at FTE podcast on Twitter. You can also find our series 11 flashcast, Jody IntoTara at JodyintoTara.com and at Jody IntoTara on Twitter and our James Bond Commentary Podcast Bondfinger at bondfinger.com at bondfinger on Facebook and at bondfingercast on Twitter. Liz, where can people find you? They can find me at Verge Podcast, which I can only remember for the Twitter for, Verge Podcast. You could Google it. Please Google all these things because I don't know the addresses or Twitter handles offhand. And you can find me on Hammerhouse, a podcast. Um, Verities Doctor Who. Hammer is discussing all the Hammer Horror movies from Quick Mass Experiment through to the Devil Daughter with Paul Cornell. He's written for Doctor Who. I am just throwing that out there because, you know, we sometimes do a Doctor Who jokes. Hey, hey. We try not to very often. We try to remember that it's not a Doctor Who podcast. Even though Peter Gushing's in a lot of them. Yeah, we try to do that on Bond Finger as well. Never works, never ever works. Yay. Oh, glad. Oh, glad never. Glad other people have that problem. All right. So until next time, may you have more meat cutes in your life than Sally Sparrow has in a single episode. Thank you very much for listening and good night. Good night. Good night. That was Flight 3 Entirety, starring Nathan Bodley, Brendan Jones and Elizabeth Miles. Theme arrangement by Cameron Lamb, Strings performance by Jane or Berg. This episode, Flirting Wittily, was recorded on the 25th of August 2019 and released on the 17th of November. Don't tell Stephen, Dan, or Colin this, but we've hidden an Easter egg in a recent episode of New to Who. If you play it backwards, you can hear Richard and Todd having a lively disagreement about German expressionism. Well, we will talk more about this, I think, probably in our last of the Time Lords episode, because I feel strongly that Martha gets the chance to come and critique the way that she's been treated. Like, she doesn't just sort of slink off into the night or anything. And it's that moment in the episode where she comes back into the Tartars. And she tells him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. still annoyed about it. But yes, I'm glad she came back in and said that. And I know that there are other fans with what I can, it's, God, a perfectly reasonable perspective of they found that moment very empowering and that moment really spoke to them and how they felt and the sense of them being stuck in bad relationships and having the strength to say what you felt and to walk away from it and that really matters to them. But obviously there's not my perspective. That's not what I want. I want my identification figure to be treated with love and joy. But, you know, that's a perfectly a valid way of looking at it too. It's just, um, it's just not pandering to my preferences, um, which means it's bad. No, no, that's how Doctor Who works. Yes, yeah. If it's not for me, then it's not for the fans. So it's not good. Yeah. I am the representative of the majority of fandom, so damn well better people I want. But I actually had a point I was going to hear and I've completely forgotten what it is. So I shall I shall end it there. My continuing ranting at that, why is Martha not treated properly by the doctor? So cruel. Cruel and harsh. I have feelings. Brilliant. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, that's good. Particularly since, you know, you're here for one episode of the season and the more people that we can hear about this because it's super problematic. I think it is super problematic. Do you want a crappy relationship to be the lens through which like the 2 main characters in the show? Do you know what I mean? And the thing is, it's depending on your perspective and who you are as a viewer, it can jump the other way as well. Instead of being like me and like, why are you being so awful to the person that I really like and judging the doctor. And this is why I often don't enjoy the 10th doctor because I'm so often reminded of, you are mean to someone I like. Um, you can jump the other way where you're more attached to the 10th doctor and are like, I don't like this pining person who's come along and is pining all the time and they should just get over it, which, um, yeah, which makes them dislike Martha, for terrible reasons, because obviously the doctor is in the wrong, but still, it's, um, it's, it's, it's not good either way, and I don't I don't, I, yeah. I really, I really am just very upset. that I'm still upset about it this much. It's like, I keep them suppressed these feelings. I mean, I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's part of the reason that the 10th doctor and Donna works so well together. Not just because I think the scripts are very good next year, but you know, in David Tennant's 1st season, the Doctor and Rose's relationship is deliberately written as uncomfortable for a viewer. You know, we're meant to find them a bit arrogant and a bit cocky. Yeah. And then this relationship is written in the way, the way you've just described as well, which is a bit a bit, it's a bit tough to watch. And then you get Catherine Tate coming along and there's the mission statement right up front that... We're not doing any of that stuff. Yeah, we're not doing any of that. I don't think he's ever said it, but I think there was an understanding during the making of season 3 series 3 that they've taken this in the wrong... Not even, I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the idea, but just the execution and the way they've done it and the pacing of it. It just goes wrong. Yeah. But then by the time season 4 comes around, it's too late. I will forgive you 10th doctor. You're stuck in the judgy pale forever. And then the episode that's meant to be Martha in space just becomes about, you know, Freema Adjumen having to crawl around in a muddy pit while Catherine Tate figures out some dates. And a fish drown. And the pounders, the fish drowns. I don't know. I haven't seen it for so long. Is that good or not still? I mean, like, see, Galaxy Prio again? That's nice. And there's a really cute woman where they sort of surround her and like poke her curiously, as an expression on her face is just adorable. Um, but yeah, that was uh, I love her turning torchwood, though really enjoyed that. And the way that Captain Jack was like, the way Captain Jack and Martha were, that's more what I wanted. Their relationship in torture was perfect. This suddenly made me... She really elevated torchwood for me. So much so. I didn't finish season one of Torture. I started again with season 2 and I just stopped watching after Martha left. Like I watched one episode after she left and just went, And then I did watch Children of Earth, but yeah, that's it. Yeah, you made a wise decision. But yeah, she really brought a missing heart to the series. Yeah, everyone sort of hates each other. She really felt like she fitted in as well, surprisingly well. And I think it really... And the vibe between her and Jack was just, 0 man, it was so relaxing. It was just so gorgeous to have a character I love in an environment where she was being treated with the respect that she deserved. And yeah, I like to relax watching television shows. I don't like to feel tenseisted. Whereas the next thing coming from that will hurt someone. At this point, James would come in and say, when are we doing the torchwood podcast? Yes. Well, the thing is, we did the Torchwood podcast, but then we reconned him. Okay, again, I remember it. No, that's right. All right. So I will do our closing thing and I will stop midway through it at some point to swear. Okay. Well, you're prepping that, something. We we, um, Liz, we recorded the Lazarus experiment earlier this evening. And I've just realised that this season has the 1st 2 parter by Helen Rainer, followed by a script by Stephen Greenhorn, neither of which are very fondly remembered, and then next season has the 1st 2 parter written by Helen Rainer, followed by a script by Stephen Greenhorn, neither of which are fondly remembered. What's greenhorns? The doctor's daughter. Yeah, where the fish trap. Fish traps. is bloody amazing in that scene, my dear, but the fish drowns. I know, but like she's having to do acting. opposite the fish. so bad In a dirty, smelly, muddy quarry. We'll give David and Catherine some, we'll give them the things to do, the Doctor Who things. I want you to moan at a drowned fish. Well, that's the thing. Russell T. Gap is in the writer's tale when he's planning this. He's like, this is going to be the Martha in, but this is going to be the Martha in Space Story. Like I've promised Freema a lost in space thing where, you know Martha has to be really reliable and the doctor and Donna have to get her back and then 2 weeks later he says to he says to Ben Cook oh no, I thought of the words the doctor's daughter and now we have to do it. And the only slot we've got is Martha in space, so I have to put them together. Freema, I'm so sorry. Oh my god. That's appalling. It's like, yeah, yeah, Russell, you're not too sorry to put midnight on the shelf, are you? That was very good though. Yes, that's true. Okay. I was just about to read the intro again. That's not do that. Okay. Well, dear listener, that's all we have time for this week.